Scientology Floggers

Within 24 hours of posting Cyber Cults, the anti-scientology cyber-cult came unglued. If you haven’t read Cyber Cults and its links, I suggest you do so before reading on. The links are to three thoroughly unrelated people – also unrelated to me – who independently shared experiences of cult-like behavior from flogger (a blogger who flogs the alleged lives of others for money) Tony Ortega. Immediately, Ortega followers zealously rallied to his defense, characterizing the calmly-stated, fact-filled observations I linked to as evil-motivated “attacks” upon their dear leader. What was remarkable was the almost uniform application of an important characteristic of cult behavior.

That is taken from Steve Hassan whom the Ortega cult itself has promoted as quite the authority on cults.  It is, “Make the person feel that problems are always their own fault, never the leader’s or the group’s fault.”  Like so many hyenas, the anti-scientology cult members reactively rallied to attack in Ortega’s defense (ignoring the substance of the observations about his conduct) and viciously went after me and all three of those sharing independent experiences about their leader. We were accused of being Scientology operatives, mentally ill, and a plethora of derogatory epitaphs not fit for re-publication here.

One of Ortega’s more hysterical devotees called for censorship of myself and the other three, then targeted a facebook group (containing more than 400 members critical of scientology) as being fair game for having had the temerity to discuss the substance of my post Cyber Cults. Those pronunciamentos (and their avid acceptance and support by other cyber cultists) demonstrated most of the elements of the following additional Hassan cult characteristic:

Require members to internalize the group’s doctrine as truth
a. Adopting the group’s ‘map of reality’ as reality
b. Instill black and white thinking
c. Decide between good vs. evil
d. Organize people into us vs. them (insiders vs. outsiders)

For any who doubt these characterizations of the reaction to Cyber Cults, they can verify them by reading the thread themselves (or as much as they can stomach) at ex-scientologist message board.  While you read their treatment of the three I linked to along with me, keep in mind another of Hassan’s critical characteristics of a cult:

Promote feelings of guilt or unworthiness, such as
a. Identity guilt
b. You are not living up to your potential
c. Your family is deficient
d. Your past is suspect
e. Your affiliations are unwise
f. Your thoughts, feelings, actions are irrelevant or selfish
g. Social guilt
h. Historical guilt

This is an interesting study in extremism. As Robert Hughes aptly demonstrated in his book Culture of Complaint opposite extremes always seem to have a way of meeting (becoming almost indistinguishable in behavior). On that score, principal stars of the anti-scientology cult are warning people that it is “dangerous” to communicate with me. That’s right, it is dangerous to be exposed to ideas that don’t march lockstep with the cult’s doctrinal black and white, us vs. them mentality.  These include people being promoted by Ortega for working with him on tv specials on scientology disconnection. They apparently are so appalled by scientology’s notion of disconnect that they are actively advising people to disconnect from me.

What I have witnessed personally on the part of the anti-scientology community’s leading lights recently is behavior that makes the average dedicated scientologist seem extraordinarily open-minded and tolerant by comparison.

As a final side note, I noticed a lot of cyber-cultists characterizing my recent posts as some sort of ‘war’ on Tony Ortega and that I wish to engage him in some public debate.  That is another indication of their cult-like, insular belief that the real universe revolves around their play world.  As far as Ortega is concerned I am only preparing the ground to correct the public record he polluted for four months about my family.  He is merely one of thousands of click bait floggers plying his trade as floggers do. I have no intention of changing that – that is fundamentally who he is.  The vermin he carries water for might be another story.  It depends on how they continue to respond and not respond.

615 responses to “Scientology Floggers

  1. Valkov

    These seem to me to be the same kind of people who promote that there is a “War on Cops”, when actually police in this country have had the safest year in decades. Or those who promote that there is a “War on Christians”, etc etc. These kind of people do exist. They are out to promote conflict.

  2. Chad Braunersrither

    Malcolm Gladwell’s podcast “Revisionist History” latest episode “The Big Man can’t Shoot” reminded me of you. He talks about Rick Barry, without giving up the awesome podcast he reminded me of you. Let me know what you think.

  3. George Layton

    Deleted by moderator: A Bunkeroo troll trying to import more falsehood.

  4. Yes I can see how Hassan’s critical characteristics of a cult are in play on both ESMB and over at the Bunker. As noted yesterday the ESMB poster Bunny Skull loves to pronounce you and a few others at times as being “mentally ill”. (Of course this has been done repetitively at The Bunker by several Bunkaroos). She also applied this label to your Mother and brothers, which is in line with this Hassan characteristic:
    c. Your family is deficient

    and this one as well:

    d. Your past is suspect

    No doubt about it all of the characteristics can be readily observed by several people.

    I’ll also add one more characteristic of a cult:

    -Idolizing of a Guru or revered Leader.

    I saw some pictures of the recent Howdy Con 2016 event. What caught my eye were some pictures of Tony Ortega, some small and one quite large, hanging on the wall at one of the meeting rooms. Hmmmmm…..Remind of you of anything? Did they give the pictures a round of applause followed by a few “Hip Hip Hoorays”? Lol….

  5. I am still here.

  6. Michael Fairman

    What I have observed regarding a majority of those who had invested their lives, fortunes and sacred honor in the cult, is that their minds have been bent into a series of curves, which can only be traced with a beam compass. Once traced, the curves always seems to come back to Hubbard’s dictums, and their responses to varying stimuli are Pavlovian. I will now mix metaphors: Once a delicate porcelain teacup is shattered, it’s fragility will forever be marred by the breakage lines. The only real solution is to get another teacup.

  7. “What I have witnessed personally on the part of the anti-scientology community’s leading lights recently is behavior that makes the average dedicated scientologist seem extraordinarily open-minded and tolerant by comparison.”

    I’ve said in the past that in large the mentality of the anti-Scientology posters, in and of itself, would make me not want to be associated with them. Not all but many of their comments range from juvenile to vicious.

    On the other hand, the majority of the commenters on Ortega’s blog seem to be more interested in camaraderie than anything. It seems Hubbard was right that a common enemy (perceived as such) will unite a group, but I’m thinking that camaraderie is even more basic, along with having a common purpose. So I’ll repeat what I said on the previous thread – that expanding awareness with discussion is the way to go.

  8. Sharon Sigmond

    You have a way with words. Well said. Here’s what this redneck summarizes the whole thing down to. Screw Ortega and his minions. 🙂
    Not elegant like yours, but it hits the spot.

  9. Why are you calling us vermin? Where is this coming from?

    THere has been so much support for you and your wife on The Underground Bunker. I know you don’t believe me, but if you’s like I can post comment after comment. Everybody only wishes the best for you and your family after the hell you have been through.

    Please stop labeling me. Please stop grouping me. I am not vermin. I am a person with real feelings and a family and home and work. I am not commenting on The Bunker for any other reason than to stop Scientology from damaging anyone else.

  10. Mark C. Rathbun

    It is impossible to know whether I did so refer to you without knowing your identity.

  11. Typo – should read “…in large PART, the mentality…”

  12. Yes they did, and you know why? For a joke.

    Good or bad joke, whatever, it’s a joke. The joke was actually on Marty, but there you go.

    You know this of course, because Baby told you yesterday. And Alonzo can verify that as she told him at the same time. Yet here you are again saying the same nonsense, twisting context to suit your aims.

    If people are trying to promote conflict, that definitely includes you, lad.

  13. Mark C. Rathbun


  14. Tanq & Tonic

    Honestly, for you of all people to be trying to accuse someone of running a cult is not only laughable, it’s offensive to who have been truly victimized by cults. Including those you abused I might add.

    You’ve both been abused and been the abuser. The actions you’re writing about, while unacceptable to me, pale in comparison. And, frankly, it seems as if your behavior is as much an effort to control how others feel and act as those you’re so upset by. And since I don’t frequent Ortega’s blog, don’t try to attribute this to my being brainwashed.

  15. Valkov

    Who is “us”?

  16. Well I didn’t see Baby’s reply saying they did it as a joke. Thanks for telling me ‘cuz I’ll go look that up. FWIW…..I myself made the “hip hip hooraying” Tony’s picture comment also as a joke. I’m a joker and degrader. Just look at my ethics file. Lol…

    Anyway…Happy 4th everybody!

  17. Outraged –

    Read Marty’s passage again:

    He [Tony Ortega] is merely one of thousands of click bait floggers plying his trade as floggers do. I have no intention of changing that – that is fundamentally who he is. The vermin he carries water for might be another story. It depends on how they continue to respond and not respond.”

    I believe that Marty is suggesting that Tony “carries water” for someone else, and that is to whom Marty is referring as vermin. I do not think he was calling Bunkeroos, like yourself, vermin.


  18. The Oracle


  19. The Oracle


  20. Mark C. Rathbun


  21. The Oracle

    The Tony Ortega tribe. Love the doll. You look at these people’s smiling faces and you wouldn’t guess it was a hate club with an ethnic cleansing purpose to rid the world of Scientologists.

  22. Going off topic here….Hey Michael I bragged the other day to my “Mulholland Drive” and David Lynch worshiping friend that I was posting on the same blog with Michael Fairman to make him jealous. Lol… He knows every actor who was in that movie.

    Oh, and my Mom and I have been watching all of the Cheers episodes this past year or so from beginning to end. Who popped up a few weeks ago playing a retired NY Yankee’s player? Why it was you! I told Mom, “Hey he is one of the more famous Ex-Scientologists.” She asked if Kirstie is an Ex yet. I said, “nah…..she’ll end up staying until it’s time to turn the last light out”. Lol…

  23. Oh Alanzo there you go again! Actually carefully reading a post to get its full meaning. Pfft! That’s not the way to roll on these blogs! C’mon man!

  24. Valkov

    If you don’t frequent Orega’s blog, how would you know whether what Marty is saying is true or not?

  25. To be perfectly honest I have nothing with religion in general.

    And that is the understatement of the year.

    Spiritualty for me is not being polite or something to people but give them the light of day. That is why I welcome the Syrian refugees.

    Defending your own little turf is understandable in light of extremism.

    If you ever knew what I tought about religion. I keep it under the collar.

  26. I remember when Alanzo was playing his music on those dive blogs, and honky-tonk boards – all the thrown bottles; the awful reviews; the trashy board babes that waited for him back stage.

    And now look at him! Loved and adored and famous!

    I just want the world to know I was an Alanzo fan long before Alanzo was cool.

    I’ve even got a signed T-Shirt.

  27. The Oracle For photos. Other link seems to be not working from this platform.

  28. “I just want the world to know I was an Alanzo fan long before Alanzo was cool.”

    And your writing style is similar – witty and funny. Alanzo should be proud. 🙂

  29. Path of Buddha

    Laughter! ROFL
    Michael Fairman wrote:
    “What I have observed regarding a majority of those who had invested their lives, fortunes and sacred honor in the cult, is that their minds have been bent into a series of curves, which can only be traced with a beam compass. Once traced, the curves always seems to come back to Hubbard’s dictums, and their responses to varying stimuli are Pavlovian. ”

    Very close description to what I found in my own head! I might add that I also found once excellent machinery, created before Scientology, that was broken into pieces by the false nature of the religion. This machinery once produced excellent creative will, imagination, and scientific curiosity.
    But I must admit I had wins along the way. In the end, they were impermanent.

  30. I’m an ex-scn from 30 years ago and a newcomer to the scn blogs since watching Going Clear. I don’t think it’s been mentioned yet that there is a huge difference between daily blogs and a blog such as Marty’s in which a single topic usually remains up for weeks. This allows the opportunity for extended discussion and debate.

    I prefer and need time to ponder before saying or asking anything on a blog. Occasionaly on Mike Rinder’s blog a topic engendering philosophical discussion carries back conversation for 3 or 4 days and then flows into the ocean of internet words.

    The vast collective consciousness or universal wisdom if you will on earlier and current topics here and on Alonzo’s blog on which I participated while he was very active last year has benefited me greatly. The daily blogs, much like other internet communication, becomes a social gathering to a great extent and necessary challenges to wrong thinking doesn’t occur.

  31. These kind of topics don’t usually command interest in extended discussion and debate:

    Why Lisa Marie Presley’s custody battle likely has nothing to do with Scientology

    Megan Shields, the physician Scientology used to vouch for its drug rehabs, dies of cancer.

    Scientology is holding this Kazakh 20-year-old prisoner, says her media-grabbing mom.

    When you postulate upon a star: L. Ron Hubbard and Scientology’s funny made-up words.

    More signs of the apocalypse for the Church of Scientology’s bitter-enders.

    Chick Corea’s glib revelation to the New York Times about Scientology’s ‘Maiden Voyage’.

    Ross & Carrie’ conclude their Scientology investigation by calling it ‘ridiculously creepy’.

    As you can see, most of this is not news. It is attitude. And shaming people. Fair gaming people, and gossip. Bullying. It only takes an hour for him to throw out a target and those people rip it to shreds. Then, they get hungry again real fast.

  32. And if you don’t get in the spirit of the kill, they go after you.

  33. It does not surprise me anymore that even the cyber world has its cultlike behaviour. Small talk at the bar transferred to the internet becomes something else. Small talk (gossip, loose opinions, speculations) at the bar might be harmless. But on the internet they are not. Some people loose the normal social restraints. Others get enraged in response to that and loose their restraints as well.
    From a professional journalist like Ortega it might be expected that he does not fall in that pitfall. But he did. Especially when he let loose his personal frustrations about Monique Rathbun ending her lawsuit. The result of that we can see here. He of all people should have understood how it would resonate with some people/groups in the cyber world who lost their social restraint a long time ago and who show real cultlike behaviour.
    By doing so he unleashed a monster. It is extremely sour and undeserving that the Rathbuns have become the target. After ending the war with Scientology, they have to face another war, now in cyber space.
    But when you have surpassed Scientology, you can surpass easily some minor cyber cult that does not even know it is one.
    Ortega should have known better.

  34. As an afterthought, I have read many, many insightful and inspirational comments on daily blogs, so I don’t mean to diminish their value and contribution.

  35. Are you speaking of ortega or rathbun? Everything marty says that characterizes ortega seems to fit Martys posts as well- black and white thinking bunker evil marty good, them v us, rally the troops circle the wagons . I mean, look at the title of the post. Ortega hasnt mentioned rathbun since marty dropped his lawsuit. And he never said anything bad about martys wife. He constantly posts stories about narconon, celebrity bailouts, sci social media and scis activities in other countries. But nothing about marty. When marty is asked to explain his vitrol and give some examples of bunker abuse marty just sounds arch and gives incomprehensible jargonesque answers. Like people are beneath him. Its starting to seem like a put up job, like marty is harassing ortega, and not the other way around. Marty, i know you are going to read this carefully, since you apparently delete or edit posts. I cant wait to see you n Therouxs film!!

  36. Coy diversionary statement that implies something awful and mysterious, but actually says nothing. If you know something rathbun, spill the beans or stop insulting and demeaning people. Im curious i admit, but i certainly dont take innuendos or hints as truth. If ortega is a front for an evil warlord, as you imply, youre gonna have to say who the warlord is, you cant keep people’s attention forever. Delay tactics wear thin.

  37. What does Monique think about your recent blogs? We use to hear her voice, but now-nothing.

  38. Mark C. Rathbun

    What does your husband think about your trolling?

  39. ^^Excellent post, sara.


  40. Hi richard, challenges do occur there, but you are right it is mostly a social gathering to discuss news stories. However, it is the ONLY place to get these news stories.

  41. Call Me Snake

    Scientology has messed up a lot of people’s lives and continues to do so, the internet has become therapy for quite a bit of them and whatever helps them recover is fine by me, I’m through trying to get people to see things my way, life is too short for that. A simple suggestion, if Ortega site bothers you … then don’t go there. There is far more to life than the internet and even when you’re on the internet it’s just like watching TV, if you don’t like what’s simply on change the channel, however if you’re looking to change someone’s mind on the internet all you’ll accomplish is frustrating yourself.

  42. Mark C. Rathbun

    I guess you missed this in the post: As far as Ortega is concerned I am only preparing the ground to correct the public record he polluted for four months about my family.

  43. As one of those few that Bunnyskull likes to trash as “mentally ill” – I concur. Good call, Lone Star.


  44. Thank you,

  45. jimjam916 – Thanks for pointing this out. I unthinkingly overgeneralized. My statement should have been qualified, at least by “. . . challenges to wrong thinking often doesn’t occur.” I have often questioned people’s opinions on Mike’s blog and they have questioned mine. Also, as you say, daily blogs are generally news stories and not presented for in depth discussion.
    I don’t participate at the Bunker – it moves too fast for me and I’m low tech – laughter

  46. I can only refer you to Marty’s last paragraph. How is what you posted relevant to what he said there?

  47. Sherbertfrog

    It’s a complex world trying to remember the chatter which delineates the so called life and intentions of internet posters as they “to and fro” though the cyber world’s remorseless attention. The value of and maintenance of one’s online integrity is a study in itself and reflects the, at times psychotic nature of on-line devotion. The shadows are numerous and subterfuges abound with more unidentified voices than a midnight KKK lynching.
    My only somewhat vague connection with Marty is that I was technical staff in Scientology for a decade or so and have some experience understanding the difference between what the tech says and the way the organisation has gone separately insane along the very lines the “so called tech” explains rather well. But imo you have to have experienced it personally to be able to draw judgement accurately of what is a very personal and abusive journey being staff. To draw any reasonable sense of logic when you’ve never been in, or personally experienced the Scientology lifestyle will always leave you grasping for straws more often than not. But what takes the place of actual experience and portrayed on-line is well exampled by Ortega’s site development and his resultant behavioral characteristics. He keeps it “interesting” as only journalists seem to be able to do. IE fact, opinion, bs and speculation all blend and the story becomes more important than what is being reported. For better or for worse he is a constant source of opinionated speculation/error and to rely on him as an expert on Scientology is a false path for the most part but it makes great media and tabloid intrigue regarding the present mess surrounding Scientology. Scientology and its history is of great value to someone like Ortega for without it where would he be? No one really owns the communication on the net but many strive to dominate the attention it affords. Groups, forums etc then develop patterns and a life of their own, often going just as insane as what they resist. It does however present an opportunity of a business of interest which can and does indeed do lots of damage to certain people’s integrity, that is the exchange it values. My reason for commenting here today is that Marty has delineated rather well the nature of the on-line craziness, hypocrisy and defamatory nature the web conjures up as it exposes itself to the beast it can be. I appreciate that.
    I don’t agree with all what you do Marty but you’ve got the right to defend yourself and I stand behind you 100% on that. We have some common enemies, good luck to you.

  48. JD JD JD….John Duignan? Hard to tell with the Bunkeroos. State your name loud and clear ‘lad’ and if you are whom I suspect you are we can have a friendly little chat about twisting context and joining/creating whispering campaigns about ‘prominent critics’ being mentally ill.

  49. The Oracle

    On a slow day, when there were few targets, she posted a report on ESMB that I “caste spells on Emma” on that forum. It never happened. No link to any such madness. This never occurred. But it managed to set me up as a rag doll to get kicked around. If there isn’t something concrete to bury someone, she invents it. Kind of like Hubbard’s policy to dig up dirt, and if you can’t find it, invent some. Now she is promoting that Marty is insane. No regard for his wife, or child who may someday read this kind of slander on the Internet. Injustice recoils. Napoleon said it first. In spite of the annoyance of someone promoting you as someone you are not, reporting that you did things you never did, and having more false information out there for people to think with, she is the one that will have to cope in this world with the conditions she creates for mankind. Some people just get stuck in the wrong body with the wrong tools. A shark floating along the bottom of the ocean, eating everything it sees, tucked off the cross roads, does help the ecological system. People just have to find their slot where they can contribute something of value.

  50. Jean-François Genest

    Hmm. What is your real name “Call Me Snake“ ?
    Why do you cowardly hide behind a code name, and don`t reveal your true identity? Is there something about you that we should know?

  51. The Oracle

    You can be against a system, and still not have the urge to kill off everyone that is a part of that system. Ethnic cleansing goals breed injustice. Being unkind to people, bullying them, herding them into pens with labels, disrespecting them, this is all part of an unworkable system also, called brutality and injustice, discrimination. One of reasons why the Scientology culture is not in favor with society. And the solution is not to copy those methods.

    You can hate an act, and not hate the person who committed it.

    These are human choices also.

  52. The Oracle

    But when a person, “Loves to Hate”, ……………… You do not see these paths traveled very often. And people who “Love to Hate” , do form peer groups. All the way from Germany to Alabama.

  53. The Oracle

    And, as hard as it may be to wrap your head around it, it is no secret that some people derive pleasure from deliberate cruelty.

  54. Kilgore Trout III

    This is a minor note, but referring to Ortega as a “professional journalist” is a hoot. His career, such as it was, included an amazing list of fabricated and hyped stories. Plus he was happily the huckster for child prostitution via Village Voice’s Even Village Voice couldn’t stand him — and he was promoted to “former employee” and he has since advanced his career to “can’t find a real job.” His default setting of “make things up” is what characterizes his current crumbling enterprise.

  55. The Oracle

    And I don’t mean to come off as the Grimm Reaper or apathetic, but I do NOT think this is something you can fix in people. If someone is born with out a leg, you can not put one on them. And people that are into this mindset, they do not have the resources to derive pleasure from the things that others do. There is something inherently missing, in these, that has to do with ability to perceive. And you can see it in their lives. They did not take pleasure in a career, a relationship , (except where they could torture people), a hobby, a family, children, whatever. Whatever they connect to, or whoever, it is with the purpose to derive some pleasure from cruelty. They learn to be very cunning with it in social circles. But I do not think Scientology, therapy, religion, education, drugs, or the wide open prairie can change it. And part of this is part of the deliberate cruelty. “Look at me, you can’t fix me. I am part of your group, so you must be like me. Deal with me, and co exist with me. Learn to love me. Provide for me. Open doors for me and contribute to me. And in this way, you are are forced to contribute to me evil.” And if you were to isolate them, by providing them with their own country and resources, to protect the rest, they could convince you that were evil by not “accepting them” and their personal interests and welfare. And providing them with victims to indulge their pleasure seeking. So, you are set up for a loss with these people, all the way across the boards. The best you can really do is avoid them at all costs. That may sound wimpy, but sometimes the only way to win, is to not lose. At the is just the best move you can make in the game. You don’t have to feel like a super hero every time you sidestep a pawn in a game of chess. Or take the long path to your destination, to avoid a bee hive.

  56. Well, I know this stuff is about you personally so it’s probably easier said than done, but I would not spend much time worrying about what they think or say. It’s a small cult with a very small and isolated following. Nobody cares or even understands what they hell they are talking about. I mean, unless you’re in the group or have some track with their jargon and humor I don’t think one would “get it”. It’s one big, continuous inside joke. The average person is not looking to them for news or information.

    In the past I have been interested in the goings on in the critic community and have found Tony’s blog hard to navigate. I’ll look at the blog post, but sifting through and trying to glean any useful information from the comments is futile. Aint nobody got time for that.

  57. Kilgore Trout III

    Your comment is pretty over the top, there, buddy.

    You wrote:

    “His career, such as it was, included an amazing list of fabricated and hyped stories.” Which stories were fabricated and hyped?

    “Plus he was happily the huckster for child prostitution via Village Voice’s” In what way, exactly, was Tony Ortega a “huckster” for child prostitution?

    And what the hell does a “huckster” for child prostitution do, exactly?

    These are two known OSA dead agent lines on Tony Ortega, and the way you have worded them, using generalities and words that mean nothing at all, makes you look very much like OSA.

    L Ron Hubbard said that the use of generalities was an anti-social trait.

    Can you provide some specifics so we can examine for ourselves if what you are saying is true? Or don’t you have any?


  58. Perry White

    To be honest, I was never a big Alanzo fan when he was a big rooster on Tony Ortega’s blog. As I am usually in the boredom/mild interest tone band, his angry tone was a bit too much for me. Something has changed and it is easier for me to follow him these days. I find him being on target a lot. Ortega on the other hand was and is simply using anything connected to scientology to pay his bills. For the right price, I think you could see him writing for Freedom Magazine.

  59. I am a member of the group that is being Fair Gamed- for posting your Cyber Cults blog for discussion. We will continue to exercise our right to post what we like without censorship- we are not a cult and so this is allowed.You have every right to defend your family Marty- it’s what any rational sane and compassionate person would do.

  60. Could eat a Horse

    What’s up with “Emma” anyway? Remember a posting of her that she would retire and try to get a job with the Red Cross. Postings on her message board are down.

  61. Could eat a Horse

    My observation about psychiatric labeling. Doctors who want more patients. Patients who envy others who are not labeled mentally ill.

    Bunnyskull and anyone else engaged in psychiatric labeling fit into one of these two categories.

  62. Could eat a Horse

    Why are the Bunkerroos all lying in ONE bed (literally)? Bacchanalia? One could catch the vermin from the other.

  63. Marty,

    Your critics are all heartless. After all the harassment you’ve been through, how could anyone doubt your intentions. I say prove them wrong. Say something critical of miscavige and prove you haven’t been bought out. Prove to everyone on your blog that your not shifting focus from yourself to Ortega in order to make Miscavige happy. There’s no way Miscavige is smart enough to kill two birds with one large check. That would be an insult to everyone involved wouldn’t it?
    So for the record please just say how you really feel about dear leader because you couldn’t possibly if you’ve been bought out. Set the record straight. That’ll show em.

  64. Good catch, Alanzo. There could be some clever people in OSA working for good pay.

  65. I’m not saying Kilgore Trout III is an OSA agent.

    I am saying that what he has written here are things which were originally written by OSA in their typically hysterical attempts to paint Tony Ortega as a child molester for their over-the-top dead agent capers.

    I’m asking to see the specific things that Kilgore Trout III is accusing Tony Ortega of, using plain English and plenty of verifiable evidence.

    That’s all I’m saying.


  66. The Oracle

    The purpose of ESMB is to keep bunnyskull propped up while it gaslights. Convinces people they are insane, and convinces others that people are insane. See earlier thread. This is a very cunning black magic art. The goal is to cause others to doubt their sanity.

  67. The Oracle

    It’s current target is the Rathbuns. Mission orders are to knock out power, authority, reputation. good will and sanity out from under the Rathbuns.

  68. Kilgore Trout III

    Oh, Alanzo, such a crafty person you are. Ortega’s career (lack of) is very well documented, and it doesn’t take dead agent files or OSA to uncover that. Your response is very much like Ortega’s — give me proof. Marty has pretty much shut that down here. Ortega hardly ever gives proof — you yourself have written that. Double standard.
    So, do some of your own homework. Look up Ortega’s pseudonyms, Antoine Oman and Cesar Oman. It’s not OSA, he’s mentioned in academic books on lying journalists. Look up his scurrilous reports on a Bruce McMahan. Here’s one start:
    And, no the “Cannibal” isn’t an OSA plant. It’s very well documented.
    If you don’t know about Ortega’s screaming on behalf of backpage, i.e. child prostitution, you really are the blind trying to lead the blind. Here’s the Deseret News:
    Ortega tried to savage Amber Lyon at CNN, Nicholas Kristoff at the NYT.

  69. The Oracle

    I’m just thinking the purpose would be to redeem Miscavige.

  70. The Oracle

    And Tony Ortega is helping! Wonder why nobody is asking whether Tony has had a sudden bump in income? Or if the lawyers who had this all in slo mo have had a sudden bump in income? Why do people always look where they are told to look, and not at the person steering them?

  71. The Oracle

    By the way, bunnyskull is also a manager of ESMB. According to recent comment, editing posts. So bunnyskull and Anne Lowe are the producers and directors over there. If I am wrong, someone please correct me here. I do not care to forward false reports.

  72. The Oracle

    Default Re: Mark ‘Marty’ Rathbun on Tony Ortega and the Underground Bunker v. Scientologists
    A derail? A one post derail? Oh my.

    BunnySkull, you edited my post without any indication that it was edited.

    Any new news on Marty’s complaints about critics is fine, but he’s basically repeating the meme of “The critics are as bad or worse than Scientology,” etc., so I’m not nearly as interested in that as I’m interested in any new news on what really happened that made Miscavige smile and the lawsuit disappear.

    I’ll include the bulk of the post which you omitted without indication. (That’s bad netiquette ):


  73. The Oracle

    ^^^^^^^^^^ bunnyskull slapped a muzzel on Veda. Hey, someone know where bunnyskull lives or name for contact? I’d feel comfortable knowing it isn’t parked at CLO EUS.

  74. Your implied suggestion that Mark Rathbun should again take the lead in attacking what’s left of the cult is ridiculous.

  75. Your 1st link took me to a website that had Tony Ortega’s name written at the bottom of the webpage in invisible ink. No other mention of Tony Ortega was made on that webpage.

    Your 2nd link had no mention of Tony Ortega at all.

    These are the kinds of clumsy and slimey things that the Church of Scientology’s Office of Special Affairs does to its critics.

    Why are you repeating them here, Kilgore?

    Were you actually convinced by these links?

    Because I’m certainly not.


  76. Kilgore Trout III

    You really are dense, Alanzo.
    The first link excoriated the Village Voice — as in when Ortega was the editor (given the old heave-ho by his bosses) of the Voice.
    But if you insist on being indefatigably uninformed, try this for an antidote:
    And the second link, the Deseret News most certainly does mention Ortega.

  77. I walked a different path. But my lessons were the same.

  78. Accusing socks of being OSA plants is generally a losing game because it’s so easy for them to just vanish and reappear with the same enemy lines. Pointing out that they’re using cultish techniques (digging up a person’s past) is easy enough tho. What’s the goal here fishy sock? To prove there really is a ‘hate campaign’ being waged against Tony Ortega? Whatever the ‘facts’ are It’s a vicious game to bring up someone’s past knowing they can’t change it – not playing.

  79. The Oracle

    Hey! Housewives of ESMB. Here ye here ye!!! I know y’all been driven crazy to find out how Marty and Monique got parked in that home. From what data I have accumulated, none of y’all are very $$$ savvy. And I don’t think the tax payers of a few states know what they have been paying you for, but never mind. I’m going to inform them, so they are all enlightened also.

    Since you suspect others of the treason you yourselves dabble in, I reckon none of you considered that home was obtained through a private mortgage holder? Not saying it was actually. But you can find out. This is still a huge mystery!

    So listen here, I want one of you heifers to park yourself on my front porch so I can open up my books and financial records. I would love to exchange information. I’m going to show you everything you need to know right now. And in exchange, I want you to bring the financial records for your income stream for the last ten years also. The ones I don’t already have from the state. Otherwise, I have to harass my cousin at the I.R.S. for intel er…gossip.

    And, I want you to bring Tony Ortega’s financial records also. Let’s just everybody, lay the cards on the table and open the books. Let’s let everyone know who is profiting, and from what services rendered. If any. Who is serving who or what, and exactly what people are getting paid and how much. We need to see the profiteers in this arena, and who is profiting off of other people’s misery. I need Anne Lowe’s docs, and “bunnyskull” docs.

    So which one of you heifers is coming? Anne or the gaslighter?

  80. Is that how one proves their innocence around here? By saying something bad about Miscavige? Cool! I’ll start: “David Miscavige is a poo poo head”.

  81. Alanzo, at the very end of the Deseret News article there is a quote by Tony Ortega during that controversial time with the Village Voice when he was the editor-in-chief:

    “We’re being told that there’s a widespread, growing and out-of-control problem to fear in our country. And it has a catchy name: ‘trafficking,'” wrote Tony Ortega, editor-in-chief of The Village Voice, in an editorial last year. “The actual data behind this ‘epidemic’ is wanting in the extreme. It involves guesses by activist professors, junk science by nonprofit groups trying to extract money from Congress, and manipulation by religious groups hiding their real agendas about sex work.”

    I do remember this scandal with the allegations of VV being complicit with child sex traffickers advertising on their Backpage.

    How much did Tony Ortega know, and when did he know it? I truly don’t know.

  82. Sherbertfrog

    It was with abject disdain I scanned the Bunker this morning only to see Ortega is once again burning the candle from both ends. His slick, I’m your friend, tell me how you feel and I’ll understand rhetoric is as sickening as it is false. He cares nothing about what his supporters actually feel or think except to be a tool or a weapon if needed in his agenda to retain the limelight and interest of Scientology bashing. The last place in the world an Indie would ever post would be on his site, it’s poison and even worse than ESMB because of Ortega’s false sentiment. At least at ESMB their objectives are more or less easy to comprehend.
    The common denominator with Ortega’s “public” is that they are hateful against anything he doesn’t like or threatens his credibility. There is no life on that site, no direction except to destroy. A haven for weak of mind needing something to follow where the end result is compliance – just like the Cof$.

  83. The Oracle

    Oh, I need $$$$$ details details details on the others too! Everyone that contributed to that thread . Also the one who is reporting on ESMB that Marty has an off shore bank account. Bring all! This is INDEPENDENCE day! We can all be freed from SECRETS and false reports! Injustice!

  84. Kilgore Trout III –

    In your first post you wrote that Tony Ortega had “an amazing list of fabricated and hyped stories”, “Plus he was happily the huckster for child prostitution via Village Voice’s”.

    In none of the fours links you’ve offered, which contain nothing but 1940’s style gossip claptrap, do you present any facts related to those two claims you have made against Tony Ortega.

    You, Kilgore Trout III, have just fully discredited yourself.

    You should go back to writing passages that will appear in pornographic magazines promising WIDE OPEN BEAVERS INSIDE! as your creator, Kurt Vonnegut, commanded you to do.


  85. The Oracle

    Oh, I have big tip for to pass on to Mr. Ortega. Big tip! The Oracle just offloaded real estate in Vegas!! Where big moneys go? Where cash money parked? Where next real estate investment? Where where where???? Mr. Ortega like my sushi bar? Was it wrapped in the cash sale or did Oracle sell under table for unreported cash? These big important issues. Follow the money! Maybe Oracle have off shore bank account, stuff cash over there? Heifers on ESMB show my house? Make funny funny? Chase new home owners away? Maybe mortgage holder get stuck no tenants? Good weeks work, make people homeless. Maybe they have children, make sleep in car at Wal Mart?

  86. So those of you that follow Mark and Tony will laugh at my query but…I thought that Ortega and Rathbun were allies, same fight, same team. In GC Ortega seems to exhaust Marty, as well as in other media appearances.

    What did I miss? This all feels kind of sad as I see both men as thought leaders and truth bearers.

    The enemy of my enemy is my friend, no? Or is it not that simple?

    BTW, I mostly read Mike Rinder’s blog so that probably explains my ignorance.

    Sad though, Tony Ortega held the Rathburn’s in the highest esteem.

    Isn’t that Miscaviage guy the real foe?

    Sad IMHO.

    Best to all –

    Steve in Baltimore

  87. Sorry, I meant to add that I went over to “The Bunker” and I read back at least a year and couldn’t find a single negitive line in any post about the Rathbuns by Tony O. Just professional reporting of the excellent effort by them, in a supportive tone in fact.

    So why the family fude? A civil war?

    Steve in Baltimore

  88. Mark C. Rathbun

    you noted, ” I mostly read Mike Rinder’s blog so that probably explains my ignorance.” You are probably right.

  89. The Oracle

    Oh, and tell Mr. Ortega I have big roudy noisy violent scoop sure to restimulate!! Why Monique leave courthouse and public domain. Why? Go see ESMB Honking heifers thread!! Go see! Go see! Point every enemy to son’s home. Monique don’t likey.

  90. Mark C. Rathbun


  91. I wish all here a Happy Independence Day! We should all be thankful to live in a country where open debate is allowed and even encouraged. Ann

  92. The Oracle

    I try make thread go away, but me have no value. Made like ghost.

  93. The Oracle

    Solly Mr. Jeffries.

  94. I concur.

  95. Must have been a sardonic laugh. I again concur.

  96. +1

  97. Sadly, Ann, I’m not finding much open debate here…just a lot of thought-stopping, gaslighting, and your basic, everyday pot-calling-the-kettle-black.

  98. Lol on the porno mag reference. In a crazy sense, this is seeming funny to me. Isn’t it called flaming or something? Maybe Mr. Trout is just trolling and enjoying himself.

    Anyhow, huckster:

    1) a retailer of small articles, especially a peddler of fruits and vegetables; hawker
    2) A person who employs showy methods to effect a sale, win votes, etc.
    3) a cheaply mercenary person
    4) (informal) a. a persuasive and aggressive salesperson
    b. a person who works in the advertising industry, especially one who prepares aggressive advertising for radio and television

    I wonder which definition Mr. Trout prefers. It seems that slander can take many forms, either outright or subtle.

  99. The should read: “Ortega EXHAULTS the Rathbun’s”…as in holds them in highest regards, as he well should.

    Dudes, go fishing together and work this out. One plus one equals three.
    This is beneath men of your caliber, ability and achievements.

    I’ll bring the boat and we’ll all go out on the Chesapeake Bay and angle for rock fish and catch an Orioles game and hang out until this is all behind you both. Then we can get back to work.

  100. I just read through all the links you provided. Many are redundant. I still don’t read anything BY Tony Ortega that would be interpreted as hostile or defamatory. Some disagreement perhaps but nothing disrespectful. Some of the comments are nasty but it’s a f$@$ing blog on the Internet – what do you expect!

    I have no position in this. Mark Rathbun is a personal hero of mine. I came across his story at a time in my life where I needed some inspiration and he saved my a&& with his courage and resilience. But I also appreciate Tony Ortega and his contribution to this world as well.

    Personally, I hold both men in high esteem and hope they work out any differences.

    Disagreement is healthy. Unkindness should never be tolerated. If someone owes someone else an apology then get on with it as men of this caliber are far too rare. And we a better united than devided.

  101. Lone Star – Forget about it. I sincerely doubt that “Kilgore Trout III” exists.
    Has anyone ever seen “Kilgore Trout III” post on any blog anywhere? He/she/it is just a plant. Unless “he” has a personal beef against Ortega, why on earth would “he” have such extensive knowledge of Ortega exposes? “He” even supplies pseudonyms. Think about it.

  102. Alanzo .. Kilgore Trout is John F. Sugg Editor of Freedom Magazine. He is a real sleazeball .. He has been posting that crap on the Bunker.

  103. The Oracle

    Hey, I have received the emails telling me to shut up. Thank you. Anyone that says anything against Tony Ortega, is an OSA representative. Anyone that says anything against Marty or his wife, are concerned citizens. I do get the message. Heard and understood.

    But um, I’m rogue. I do not have a senior and I have never pleaded allegiance to any group. I’m rogue. I do not shut up on command. So, no, ain’t gonna happen. I do not want to suck Tony’s DK, neither Ray Jeffries.

    I’m for the kid, the sick fkn hippies, low lifes, occult followers, Irresponsible,

    How many of you have put that child’s interests above your own? NOBODY except the Rathbuns.

    Seriously, FK everybody. I’m for the kid.

  104. The Oracle

    And if he did have to bypass the attorneys, and make a settlement, even if he did, it is because he had a child to provide for. The lot of you protesting that he might have a dollar to put food on the table for that kid.and attacking him for providing for a child and a woman. This is really fkn sick business. Not a credit to this race. Not a credit to the group of women. Not a credit to the children of this world. Fkn critics willing to step over the bodies of children to make your point which is what? “I am more important than your little kid”? Some people are TOTALLY OUT TO LUNCH! They have misplaced priorities. They do not have kids so they do not know! Marty provides for his child. That is all you need to know. That is all I need to know. If that isn’t good enough for some middle aged porky running around on the Internet, all self absorbed, sorry. Sometimes holiness rises above unholiness. And your unholy self important asses get left in the dust.Keep it real. Face how unimportant you and your interests are, against the back drop of a child who will out live and out distance you. These make your value drop. And if you can’t face that and stand aside. that is not on a man who is providing a path for a child. Seriously. Get over yourself. Stop kicking a man in the dirt because he places his child’s interests above his own. I would love to know what dedicated parents we see here posting, how they provided with out begging, and went the distamnce. Seriously, some of you should be ashamed of yourself.Running all over these people and their kid. Tony, you too. You have no children. How do you judge and condemn? Not cool man, in fact, very unholy. You went after someone’s mother and tried to bury her. Do you think this honors your mother?

    Marty, who gives a FK what these people think or say? You are taking care of your kid, you do not have to apologize for that. NO WAY!

  105. The Oracle

    Nobody here to challenge this? It’s not over with this thread, not by a long shot.

  106. See wikipedia for Kilgore Trout.

    And read “Breakfast of Champions” by Kurt Vonnegut for the best and most entertaining appearances of Mr. Trout.


  107. Just the Facts

    Call me Snake opined, “I’m through trying to get people to see things my way”

    Then WHY are you here trying to get people to see things your way?

  108. You may be right. I was just correcting Alanzo’s assertion that there was no mention of Ortega in the Deseret News article. The child sex ring scandal associated with the Village Voice’s was a real story several years ago. I doubt that Tony O. had that much to do with the operations of though.

    I also found quite a few articles on the turmoil at the Village Voice from the 90s up until Tony O’s era there. It sounds to me that the place was already in trouble before he took over as editor-in-chief. Looks like he made a good move career-wise in leaving. But, there was an article at the New York Observer reporting some scuttlebutt that he was encouraged to leave due to his inordinate time spent on Scientology. I don’t really care one way or another with regards to that assertion. Like I said, it sounds like VV was a mess, and pretty much still is.

  109. Hey Oracle,

    Have you ever considered starting your own blog? Did you know it’s seldom considered ranting if the blog is yours? Most importantly you never have to oddly insert yourself into every topic as though it’s your blog when it isn’t.
    You seem to have plenty (lol) to say. How about it?
    I’ll be you’re first follower.

  110. Still Awakening

    Steve – Please re-read the first article linked above. How do you interpret the headline (BY TONY) which includes “reportedly seeks settlement”? Then the blog post by Tony has NO evidence or indication that any settlement is being sought. It was a fabrication put into the title of that daily post. How do you explain later in the body of the post he has an update number 3 ““I think this is the most absurd action by a client that I have seen in my 20 years of practicing, except for actions taken by prisoners or mentally disturbed plaintiffs.” He did not leave this as a comment he felt it important enough to make a verbatim update to his post. This update was also done BY TONY.

    Mark, nor his wife, had given ANY indication of settling. When you post this onto an anti scn or anti ex scn blog do you really think his isn’t hostile or defamatory? If you read all of the posted blog posts shown above with no preconceived idea you can see much that is not appropriate. Both in the postings and the comments which he allowed to remain. In the past Tony has removed postings he didn’t want there.

  111. Was your comment intended as a demonstration of how it should be done?

  112. How bout dat – I obviously didn’t know it was a literary reference. You intellectual types know everything. You must have taken the Evylyn Wood speed reading course when you were a kid to have read so much stuff -smile

  113. I don’t know who is posting on this blog now, but it isn’t Marty. This blog has been handed over to someone in OSA.

  114. The Oracle

    Thank you for making yourself heard and understood. The thing I think I may be looking at, that you might not be, in that Tony makes suggestions. He pushed buttons and subtly gives people ideas to ponder. They get riled up and yes, that is WHY you see those deliberately cruel comments. And they are propped up, by the proprietor. They are a collective on his blog. They are read by others. He does not removed the brutality from the blog. Neither the slander and verbal abuse. It looks like it is coming from “others”, but who is the author of that blog and what provokes people to be so cruel?

    Listen, I used to hold a small percentage of the Scientology culture accountable for the menacing, malicious character it took on. But you start reading these forums and blogs, and you finally get it at the end. That culture and any promise it may have had, was doomed from the get go. Because of the people all the way from the top to the bottom. You read some these comments, and you ask yourself, what hope was there EVER when the culture was full of such ill will, and human urges to harm attack and suppress their fellow man?

    It sickens me that Marty and his wife spent so much of their time, energy, life, good will, help and love, to lift the crowd up. 95% of that crowd is hell bent on setting others up for losses. They have been parked in treason for so long, it seems like a “normal” for them, and when they get up to being a menacing enemy, it is a step up for them.

    Seems the only heros left standing in the theater, are a Texas Lawyer and a blogger who mocks up daily witch hunts. This tell you right there, this is what was really wanted and needed by these people.

    Truth is, these are not my people. I never belonged in that group. And either did Marty and Mosey. I have no desire to contribute one more ounce of attention to that could of madness.

    The “masses” from that culture, are not happy unless they are living like refugees, and so is everyone else. Marty was only in favor, when he lived like a refugee. They could have some care factor for him. The idea that he may not be suffering, or he has ended some suffering in his life, by distancing himself and his family, from perpetual suffering, is just driving people mad. They want and need to hear that people are LOOSING and living like refugees. How “holy” is that?

    This is evil I never chose to co exist with. And I tell you, you reach out to help one of these, or to improve conditions, and your hand gets bitten.

    Next time those sadists gather on ESMB to set me up for a loss, no mercy. I will go the distance. I do not owe it to them to lose or be unmocked. Not one of those issues from polluted wombs has considered Marty’s losses on this journey, or his wife’s. In fact, they are full time setting them up for more.

    So, that said, this one is for M@M.

  115. Is Mike Rinder now also being implicated in some way?

  116. The Oracle

    Bunnyskull, (The Gaslighter) still foaming at the mouth on ESMB. Knowing I am banned there and can not return the favor or defend myself. Deliberate evil. The Gaslighter . The evil is slightly annoying. But thanks for the emails I have received with details about who it is and where it houses as a host.

    The rumor now is that I must have rich relatives or my husband provides, because obviously, I am not competent in any field, or valuable in any way, that I could actually produce or command some type of income. They are happy with that idea. This is the kind of reality they mock up, that they want to dwell in. I do hope they continue with the evil, polluting the world with false reports. Making nothing out of someone every day, all day long, for the next several decades. I wouldn’t stop them for the world.

    Every wound they inflict, they have a debt themselves to answer for. It is a pay to play universe. It is a reap what you sow world. Someone just like them, is searching for ythem. Looking for a target. And they will meet their reflections in this hall of mirrors.

    The world is becoming more and more aware of social intercourse. The influences others have on society. I think one day we live in a world, where there is no space available, to feed off the lives and well being and sanity of others.

  117. Mark C. Rathbun

    The more things change it seems they remain the same – for some people. Indie scientologists posted here not long ago that clearly Tony Ortega had taken over my blog. You people need professional help.

  118. Prefer To Be Anon

    The Oracle, you said, “The lot of you protesting that he might have a dollar to put food on the table for that kid.and attacking him for providing for a child and a woman.”
    Can you please point me to where Marty said he had to settle with Miscavige to provide for his child “and a woman?”
    Just trying to follow the bouncing ball here.

  119. George Layton

    It is difficult to challenge with Marty deleting half the comments.

  120. Firstly, whoever considers I “rant”, this is an attitude. I am not so fragile I am moved in curiosity by other people’s attitudes. Thank you for sharing your attitudes. I did not feel shame.

    Secondly, I have a blog and a blog following. About that which I am expert in, ghost song writing. But it is a Q and A Blog. My posts are answers to questions, or I put forth ideas other people bring up.

    I am no expert in Scientology. Not the methodology. I also know very little about the organization or it’s history. I do know a lot about the culture, as I did view it from a lot of different angles.

    No, I do not promote or share my blog because as you see, there are people out here who will go the distance to disturb or burn down, anything you create.Really, I can barely put a comment on a news blog now without someone from the hostile side, jumping out from left field and stabbing me several times before they scamper off. I mean, people from foreign countries I have never met or done any dis service to. I mean, why on Earth is woman in Plymouth U.K. working to burn me?

    Case in point, see comments:

    I quit publishing my own poetry under my own name more than ten years ago. It just wasn’t safe anymore. At least when someone records a sogn I wrote, they are not tortured for singing it. LAUGHTER!

    If you want to flourish and prosper, in this climate, you have to do in secret. Because it causes some people to become violent toward you. Note Mark David Chapman.

    I do not charge royalties for posting on other people’s blogs. Laughter! My thoughts and ideas are an exchange. Do not mean it has any great value to others and trust if not, nobody will be interested enough to read my comments.

    I have had a lot of email over the years, from people who read the blogs and forums, and have actually never posted on one. And never will. I have made a lot of new friends. How many enemies? I think I could count them on two hands. But they are not only my enemies, I mean, they are enemy to many people.

    I have a lot of people exiting the Church, that email me for advice or ideas. I have a lot of people that do not want to post on a blog or forum, email me about comments or situations. And continue conversations.

    And I have had a lot of ideas for songs, from conversations I have had on blogs.

    Mainly I had an interest in other people, that were walking similar paths on self improvement. Exploring the super natural, and psychometric science. This made me very interested in the people in this arena.

    But I have come to realize I hoped for things that did not exist. I might as well be standing in Wal Mart. Just because we crossed paths there, doesn’t mean anything other than that.

    Scientology was never my “faith”. And my faith in the people that I crossed paths with, has been unwarranted. I was tripping.

    I have met some really great people, they were great people before they ever heard of Scientology. They just kept being them. Scientology did not make them, them.

    For a long time, as long as there were people from this arena willing to share ideas, that was always something new for me to learn.

    But the things I am learning lately, were not what I was hoping for.

    I can spend one day with any recording artist, from any path of music, and write a song for them that will hit the charts. That is probably as good as it is going to get with my word skills. But I can’t do that until I sit them, and find out what they want to say, really, that they think they can’t. And then, for some weird reason, I can channel them back into themselves with their own meaning.

    I think I have tried to do this people I cross paths with on a forum, and it doesn’t work. You have to be in front of someone and figure out who they really are.

    So, please forgive my “rants”. I am mostly channeling. Many times do not recall anything I wrote the next day. But I recall everything others say and do.

    Happy trails and happy conversations. Thank you for your generous offer and advice.

  121. How interesting, Baby! That explains a lot.

  122. P.S. There is no better feeling in the world, than flowing power to another human being. This is as holy as it gets. This is true religion.

    These people that just,….live to tear others down. I think they are special needs people. Because you know, most of humanity doesn’t doesn’t flow in that direction, maybe your court prosecutor. Most people are symbiotic, and co exist in symbiotic conditions. If they did not, we would not have a civilization here.

    Some people are handicapped in that, this ability is missing in them. Being functional in a symbiotic way. They probably live their entire lives without ever having a true friendship. Without the ability to care for someone else, with out ever knowing what love feels like. I wonder about this universe and how damaged a being has to get, to think that their survival, depends on tearing other people down. I mean, for how long? Until there is no civilization left? Then what, do they start chomping on trees? Is that why we have woodpeckers? Do they become part of the energy that flows though the wall socket? This is a nature universe, and every cosmos has a method of waste, wasting what does not provide nutrients. You can not survive here with out nutritional value. We have animals that are symbiotic, Dogs and cats, goats, all sorts animal life. How do beings get a human body, and the powers that travel with it, when they are on a lower social harmonic than animals? Isn’t anyone curious about these things? You know, as a race, of humans. If you are one, you kind of get the idea you should have some nutrient input for the rest. What if you are not? It seems like a suicidal audition for another trust. What have we got? Only each other. I don’t believe in Hell. I don’t believe in only one God, I think there are many higher powers. MANY. Blag blah, I guess these were some of the conversations, I hoped we could have someday. There are so many conversations we could have had, and never will. I don’t care to beat myself up for the ones I had. I’m still fascinated with all of this. I love high forms of friendship. That’s real religion. To remain on good terms with higher powers, you have to float way above treason at all times. I see what happens to people, when they are out of favor with the Gods. And that’s some scary shit.

  123. I wish you joy and happiness.

  124. The Oracle

    PSS, I have to write PSS, because some people can not think about the “reply” button. Seriously. If I add on here in this space, they think I reply to self because that is what the button says. They can not figure out, I am adding on.

    Why I supported Marty.

    I don’t think people will ever know, how he brought down the illusion of “rank”. Drew people out of the shadows. Made himself available to teach and educate. Granted everyone value. And beingness and voice. And convinced people they had a right to know. He put those rights , right back on the people. He pushed power to the working man. The do ers. Not the be ers. He put that out there as a real value. He put that down as a real value.

    He bypassed Hubbard in that regard. He had the holy nerve to do that and keep it real. He busted out the class system in Scientology culture. Not in a synthetic and protesty way. In a real way. He did not cater the vics. He applauded the survivors.He gave many people meaning and acknowledgement, they had never had and very well deserved. He put heart into the Scientology community. Real heart. If no one else has said it, it is because we have been a real motley crew.But everybody knows it.

    You know how it is, Thursday at 2 it is a memory swipe. But people really do not forget. He carried the torch another mile. Not them. They know. It is not about the group. It is about the reason. A group can become a liability in a heart beat. Being a group member is like, needing an identity. Reason, that is supreme to identity. That is real ethics presence.

    Scientology keys in a lot of shit on people. I have always been grateful for that. It helps me sort out my case. I love it when I get a button pushed, I clean house. They help me. I have become gifted at sorting out wrong items. Wrong indications. A lot of people have a purpose to be collateral damage. It has been the biggest inconvenient truth I have had to confront. Kind of unreal to me. Too easy. But there it is. I don’t have protest reads on it anymore. It is after all, a purpose.

    People get the idea mankind is one big unity and we all move forward towards evolution. It is not that way. Cross purposes are heavy and often invisible. I do not mean to sound apathetic, but I have found, no degree of love, mercy, sanity or reason can stop these fright trains. In fact, you become a barrier. They have a win when they run you over. We are just moving stuff around in crosstown traffic. You have to create your own path, the get to a shore where you can build a boat to sail. I think Hubbard sailed. But he had an op term case.

    No problem, worked out good for me. But I have sailed too. Away from that. And it is the best feeling in the world. Marty sailed. He got into that time and place where he could do that. And I think he can open those roads at will.

    This civilization is still in the cradle. Who cares what other people say? Marty is still your friend, when you aren’t watching. You never ever have to worry about that guy, going treason or enemy on you, unless you opened that door and pushed him through it.

    I’m like that. One for one and I can attest to this, everyone who has slandered and maligned that guy, has a LONG HISTORY of enemy or treason conditions. So, I don’t have trust issues with him. At all. If he digs a well two feet deep, there is a reason, and not only that, a holy reason. And I trust that, because I know I can trust him. This is true religion. Trust. When you don’t have that in social intercourse, you have NOTHING. And this is why the Church of Scientology fell. Lack of trust, repeated treason. Those people float out here now, creating the same conditions.

    Long time ago, in Ireland, there was a man named Parnell. His supporters became known as Parnellites. Though he came from privileged class, he went out of the limb for the working man, and lifted a nation. A civilization. The “Church” (holy ones), created myths about his personal life and buried him. But, this song reminds me of the spirit Marty has carried in his life.

    Poem: “Come Gather Round Me, Parnellites” by William Butler Yeats, from Selected Poems and Four Plays of William Butler Yeats. © Scribner Paperback Poetry.

    Come Gather Round Me, Parnellites

    Come gather round me, Parnellites,
    And praise our chosen man,
    Stand upright on your legs awhile,
    Stand upright while you can,
    For soon we lie where he is laid
    And he is underground;
    Come fill up all those glasses
    And pass the bottle round.

    And here’s a cogent reason
    And I have many more,
    He fought the might of Ireland
    And saved the Irish poor,
    Whatever good a farmer’s got
    He brought it all to pass;
    And here’s another reason,
    That Parnell loved a lass.

    And here’s a final reason,
    He was of such a kind
    Every man that sings a song
    Keeps Parnell in his mind
    For Parnell was a proud man,
    No prouder trod the ground,
    And a proud man’s a lovely man
    So pass the bottle round.

    The Bishops and the Party
    That tragic story made,
    A husband that had sold his wife
    And after that betrayed;
    But stories that live longest
    Are sung above the glass,
    And Parnell loved his country
    And Parnell loved his lass.

  125. The Oracle

    PSS, I have to write PSS, because some people can not think about the “reply” button. Seriously. If I add on here in this space, they think I reply to self because that is what the button says. They can not figure out, I am adding on.

    Same thing for Terrill Park. I see the face beating you are taking for me right now ESMB. Trying to degrade our friendship . “It” does not get it. Has no reality about these things. Friendship isn’t real. Enemies are real But I see you standing up for me.

    Thank you friend. Thank you. True friendship is true religion. We’ve got this.

  126. The Oracle

    PSS, I have to write PSS, because some people can not think about the “reply” button. Seriously. If I add on here in this space, they think I reply to self because that is what the button says. They can not figure out, I am adding on. Because a “reply” button dictates to the robot in them. Not eh, the context.

    Anyway, I just thought I would throw this out there. Did you know everything is mathematical? People that can dance, are natural mathematicians. People that can write songs and compose music, are naturally mathematic. Because you have to COUNT in time, to place these things in time, to make it work.

    So, sometimes if I am working with a frustrated song writer who has “writers block”, I ask them how they did in math.

    Then I explain to them they have natural skills. They get a tutor and clean up their MU’s, and they can write. Once they view it from a mathematical viewpoint, and look there to debug, they are just float. Some, never really learned math in school. It isn’t that have MU’s, they just didn’t learn math.

    Other people, do best to copy. If they can copy someone else. I knew this guy that was sort of an Elvis impersonator. He did well at that. I convinced him to record a song a friend of mine wrote for him. He did it but the entire time looked very uncomfortable. Like, it was just hard to be himself. That song was his greatest hit. The “real” him, was a thousand times better than the copy. But he felt a comfort zone in the copy, he did not feel in being himself. So he reverted to being a copy. At the end of the day, he just couldn’t stand being himself. Even though that was better and more profitable. I don’t know, maybe he was “in hiding”.

    Well anyway, I wanted to show you how easy this mathematical approach is. To writing a poem. This one is for you.

    I always have too much to say,
    on any given day. You weigh.
    The voices in your head,
    compete with every word.
    How long must I talk,
    until I can be heard?
    If I choose the silence,
    To be so lovely instead.
    Then I have to live with.
    I left you there for dead.
    I change the laws
    you grew in,
    tread over ghosts,
    from ancient ruins.
    To beg of you to think,
    of what you are really doing.
    If my efforts bother thee,
    I just care more for “We”.





  127. lulu belle

    I checked your name at ESMB and as far as I can see you’re not banned there. If you want to post, feel free.

  128. The Oracle

    I never said Marty said that. I do not need an editor. What I am saying, is that I really don’t give a fuck if he settled. Because he has a child.And a wife. ME. JUST ME. THIS IS ME. I am on the side of whatever is best for the child. That is JUST ME. This is all ME just ME and I am not apologizing for the way I feel. I am not going to put Tony Ortega’s interests or Ray Jeffries interests and anyone’s interests not even MY OWN, over the interests of some kid. I realize because I read the Internet, that most of the people in this arena will tread all over that kid by what they are willing to publish on the Internet about his parents. But that is not ME. O.K. If Marty has to go out and choke some mthrfkr to put food in front of his kid I am behind that and I am NOT SORRY!

  129. LOL! Well he let you in so he can’t be being that picky.

  130. The Oracle

    Thank you. Are you implying I am confused about having been banned? Or, have some conditions changed? Are you saying I was never banned? I mean, this is a sudden shift and I am curious how it came to pass. And why. Are you announcing that I was never banned? It is hard for me to have this conversation with you, because I bonded with you in some way. When I was posting there. But I have been reading lately and getting the feeling this feeling was not mutual. If you would not mind, in addition to answering my other questions, I am curious as to your purpose for this invitation. Is it a clean purpose? I had my ups and downs with Emma, but I never disliked her. We were not on the same path, but I never disliked her. She did however, come to dislike me. I mean seriously, would not accept a gift. By the way, when she “retired” do you know how many people told me she sold out to OSA? I mean, she had a witch hunt too. Do you know how many emails I received about her, with people wanting to hire private investigators to follow her? Anyway, whatever, kind of interesting our paths cross again under a similar witch hunt. The thing is, my blow ups there occurred every time, involved harming children. I just can’t, you know, get behind these drives, I can’t think that is cool. The final straw for me, was this group trying to put together a protest event to burn Tom Cruise for showing up to receive an award sponsored by the Jewish Board Of Guardians. And, I mean, it was a fundraising event, for kids. I was a beneficiary of that group, The Jewish Board of Guardians. I mean, I got off the streets of New York because they funded me with an education in a boarding school. I just couldn’t be quiet and let blind hate, organize under my nose, which would prevent funding that helps children. My bad, off group purpose. Anyway, the fair gaming going on there now, is effecting another child. Marty’s. I do not even know who owns that forum now. But to be honest, I think the only reason I posted there to begin with, was because I felt I could trust Emma. Pardon me for being suspect as to your motives, I do not want to invalidate your efforts to build bridges, but didn’t you just post, about me,” I could never understand how people who post on a blog 200 times in one day have money.”
    “How could they possibly find the time to actually work?” I mean, this is a false report. I have never ever posted 200 times a day on any blog. But you did put this out there as a fact, or was this not about me? I mean it opened up a door to public listing. People listed on this. Wrong items and wrong indications all. I mean, are you really curious about me and my life, are you starting to care about me? But,whatever. Some people have time on their hands. . So, um this is really a little unusual. I get banned, fair gamed for years, then an invite to walk over there. Not that I have problem propping myself up against abuse. But I like to know the honest terms.s.If that is not a burden. if I am being bought in for entertainment purposes, I think someone at least needs to pony up with some honesty. I mean, that usually doesn’t cost an honest person anything.

  131. The Oracle

    I mean, it just seems so strange to me that over the last two threads here, I more or less point out this forum has been owned and operated by OSA, somehow, I guess that slipped everyone’s attention. And now the red carpet is rolling out for me to be a “member”???????

  132. Tip of the iceberg. Keep digging. There’s a lot more where that one came from.

  133. The Oracle

    I mean fuck, I don’t need to talk that bad. Lonliness is not worse thing.

  134. The Oracle

    By the way, don’t get overwhelmed by the reply button. I do not reply to self. Some people can not get around that. Not suggesting that is you, never had that problem with you.

    I’ve thought about it, na. I think you bitches are waiting around the corner to fuck me up. Treason once and I’m all handled. I never go back for a second ass whipping.

  135. The Oracle

    Believe me, That is only reason I am still alive, and everyone I grew up with, is six feet under.

  136. Who wants to know?

  137. The Oracle

  138. OMG! dblch7986 you think DM is a gov agent planted as a child. Man, you REALLY need to check into the local spin bin for a LONG time.

  139. i would be nice to see :
    The Oracle : comment deleted by moderator – you are boring and irritating, and you make this place like Source mag for successful story’s about Marty…

    Marty ,Iam with you, but this Oracle is doing worst then you think….
    Big hello from LRHs Bulgravia.

  140. wtf? are you ok?

    Big hello from LRHs Bulgravia.

  141. So Kilgore Trout III –

    Are you John Sugg, the editor of Freedom Magazine?

    I’ve been waiting 15 years for Scientology to produce someone who can make a non-hysterical, reasoned argument for the issues Scientology says they care about.

    15 years.

    Yet when we compare your original claims against Tony Ortega to the evidence you have used to back them up, you show yourself to be using the same old 1950’s style Cold War character assassination techniques that Scientology has always used. And as always, the claims don’t match the evidence presented (when the evidence is presented at all)

    Don’t you think you should move Scientology into a new era, one that understands the peer exchange of the Internet, and one which can stand up to scrutiny?

    If you are John Sugg, then welcome to Marty Rathbun’s blog.

    I hope you keep posting here and I hope you up your game to become an important part of the debate surrounding Scientology.

    The truth about Scientology is BOTH the good and the bad. What we have sorely needed is someone to be able to present the good in Scientology, and to have their arguments be able to stand up to scrutiny.


  142. Spot-on observation. ESMB and the “bunker” are definitely cyber cults. It is funny to me how people who claim to be anti-cult join their own.

    The thing that seems constant both in Scientology and in the cyber-cults is that if you provide an opinion that is out of step with the cult’s opinion, you are either evil or duped. If you are evil, you are evil, and are trying to take advantage of people or harm them in some way, or steal from them, or whatever. Your motives are nefarious. You are an SP if the church is labeling you, or “OSA” if the cyber-cult is labeling you.

    If, however, you are duped, you are duped because you are listening to the wrong people, or aren’t reading the right things, of have been hypnotized. In any case, your opinion is invalid because you are misinformed and duped by one of the evil ones.

    In both cases it is impossible to just have an opinion that is counter to the cult. You must be flawed one way or another.

    I have gone to both the bunker and ESMB and stated my opinion that Scientology has some valid information, and has helped people, most notably myself. I do not deny that Hubbard had his flaws, or that that there have been many abuses in the church. I just state that some Scientology procedures and practices help people. I also state that not everyone had an awful experience.

    So, what invariably happens? _Every single time?_ I am accused of being OSA. And if I am not an OSA troll, I am a brainwashed cultie. I can only be one or the other. The cult cannot accept what I say, because it goes against their orthodoxy, which is invariably: 1. Hubbard was a complete and utter fraud, and (therefore) 2. Scientology is 100% evil and must be eradicated from the earth. If I state that the TRs helped me, that study tech helped me, that service fac information is worthwhile, that there are such things as missed withholds and that missed withhold phenomena can be easily demonstrated, that O/W tech has value, etc. – that’s all gasoline to their anti-Scientology flame.

    I mean, they are dramatizing service facs while claiming Scientology has zero value. The irony is delicious.

    And I know that “they” is a generality. But again, another irony is that “they” begin to melt into one personality no matter who is posting or complaining – they all sound the same and have the same opinions and applaud each other in the same fawning way.

    It was six years ago this week that I came across this blog and discovered that Karen de la Carrier announced that she had left the church. We all have our own journeys from being died-in-the-wool Scientologists to being independent of Scientology. The only way to do it in my opinion is to be ruthless with the truth. And the truth is that Hubbard was flawed, stretched the truth and told outright lies, and did some amazingly hurtful things. But the truth is also that through this flawed person and his associates came some interesting observations and activities that can help people. It is not 100% bad. Nor 100% good. It is up to each of us individually to determine that mix, and then to figure out what to do next. One thing NOT to do is to discard one cult for another.

    Mark, your journey over the last six years has been a clinic in what happens when you look at all of this square in the face. You have helped a lot of people doing this. Thanks.

  143. Laughter!

  144. Dale Arthur

    “you make this place like Source mag for successful story’s (sic) about Marty…”

    As I’m sure you know, an Oracle is a human megaphone for a Greek God. S’plains it.

  145. Prefer To Be Anon

    “If Marty has to go out and choke some mthrfkr to put food in front of his kid I am behind that and I am NOT SORRY!”

    Too much rage and violence and bizarre adoration in these parts for me. Between cryptic sentences from Marty that no one can make heads nor tails of… and people cursing about Marty’s desperate need (choking someone?) to feed his child is a sad thing. Be well.

  146. Ray Jeffries ain’t my Daddy. I’m not incensed someone dropped a law suit. It happens every day all across America. I don’t need a public hanging because someone dropped a law suit. She wasn’t getting paid by anyone to entertain anyone with legal madness. Some of y’all act like Monique was some kind of horse you bet on. Tony is the one acting like Ray’s wife who got all bent cause Ray didn’t bring home Friday’s pay check. Ray made big bank with Debbie Cook in weeks. Thank you Marty. Oh, amnesiaaaaaaaa. I don’t need to be part of a grieving committee or a “pay back” crowd. Ray is a gambling man, he rolls the dice with clients. They “win”, is a, “we win”. He had years to bring that out of the bag. He was not working on Monique’s case full time, and if he was, why he ain’t got no other client’s? Tony acts like she need to stand up and make a statement, explain herself and her reasons. To who> HIM? He ain’t her daddy. Some of y’all got family issues. You weren’t even betting on Moniqe, you were betting on Ray. Like he’s your daddy.

  147. How many of you went to Texas and sat in that courtroom to show your support for ANYONE? If you didn’t get up off your ass to even go there to show support as a spectator, why are you angry at someone else had to sit before the judge? Because you aren’t getting a scoop by logging onto a blog?

  148. The Oracle

    Who hooked everyone up with Ray Jeffrey? Including Tony. Uh, MARTY. Marty walked Ray Jeffrey all the way to the bank with Debbie Cook. Debbie too! Marty got Ray Jeffries press press press. Marty set Ray Jeffries up for wins. So, Monique drops her case. It was all gambling. That’s why Ray is a gambling man. Did he drop his cut because he made wind fall in record time with Debbie Cook? What is up with the math here? That money paid Ray for whatever work he did on Monique’s case. Why isn’t anyone asking Ray to open his books? Nobody “reports” on this angle because it calms folks down to look at the real math.

  149. Chee Chalker

    ‘Professional help’? Meaning an auditor?
    Or am I stuck in an implant….

  150. GH, you’ve expressed my sentiments exactly – in all of the above.

  151. Oracle’s ramblings are ruining this blog

  152. FOTF2012, see Grasshopper’s comment here:

    I think you’ll see that Mike’s blog fits the description quite well, even though Mike himself and a very few posters like yourself don’t fit it as well as the majority do – which Mike condones.

  153. Kilgore Trout III

    Alanzo, there is a small army of people who don’t like Ortega, and most of them aren’t Scientologists. Most are people who he screwed in his (failed) journalism career. Any of them can and do have the same info that’s been presented in my comments. You have been so immersed in the Ortega cult, sometimes as a dissident but always part of his following, that you write claptrap like “sing the same old 1950’s style Cold War character assassination techniques that Scientology has always used. And as always, the claims don’t match the evidence presented (when the evidence is presented at all)”. Jeez, how many citations did I give you? (A lot.) How many did you refute? (None.) What the hell do you mean ’50s Cold War characterization assassination? Ad hominem attacks are ad hominem attacks, whatever the timeframe. But they often are directly relevant regarding people’s credentials. When we discuss Trump or Clinton, we talk about their pasts. Ditto on any public person. If Hannibal Lechter were real, and he started writing articles on cooking, your warped thinking would be that if someone denounced him as a cannibal, that would be 1950’s style Cold War character assassination; the truth would be that Dr. Lechter’s past is absolutely relevant to his actions today. A guy like Ortega (or Trump) has to conceal his very real problems with credibility. He gets a lot of me-too people swallowing everything he says. The citations I provided most certainly do attest to what I argued, and you’re either not very bright or dishonest not to realize that. What those citations all state is that Ortega failed at the Village Voice and was given his walking papers. He wrote bogus, fabricated stories under fictitious names. He wrote and edited salacious stories that touted a case where there was no evidence (according to judges). When Village Voice was hammered by law enforcement agencies, the media, the U.S. Senate and more for allowing backpage to print ads from online pimps to traffic kids, Ortega was the attack dog going after the critics of backpage; he defended the practice. All of that has been out there for years. It’s not dead agent stuff, it’s not Cold War character assassinations, it’s just who he is.
    Finally, as others here have said, it’s such total b.s. and double standard that many of the commenters (including you) make outrageous claims and characterizations without proof, just by your “knowing,” and cower behind your anonymity, you demand everyone else provide proof, never check yourself, and then demand to “out” that person. You don’t know who I am, and you never will until everyone here takes off their masks.

  154. The Oracle

    Monique already gave the right item. The papers are filed in court. Marty (after being accused of being shady on Tony’s blog), announced they did not settle. These are items. But people are being given other items and wrong items. They won’t accept the right item. They will accept Tony’s items. Tony is the giving them these items. Other people are giving items. Now they think they don’t even have an item and a private investigator maybe could them a right item. But the right items were laid on the table weeks ago. The right item is being rejected. Why? Because Tony is saying you got given a wrong item. So, go back to him and find out what the “right item” is, if it isn’t coming from Marty. Because he is the one put everyone up to listing. And made a list of items for people to list on. Including saying Marty wrote the court docs Monique filed. So what if he helped her, he is her husband. If Tony thinks is a crime, why didn’t protest about it with all of the other court docs Monique filed, that Marty may have had to help her with. Not like Marty is supposed to throw his wife under the bus if she needs help.

    Now, here is the list of items Tony gave you:


    (She dropped her law suit)


    (You got this idea from Tony)

    3. Monique fucked up. “The particularly bad timing of Monique Rathbun’s decision to fire her attorneys”.

    4. Monique fires people! (If she drops a law suit)

    5. Monique can’t make intelligent decisions

    6. “ENTIRE legal Team” damn it’s like, Monique put a nation out of work!

    Note: You fire people that are employees. Monique had no employees!

    7.This is a shock! Shocking, You should be shocked! “Shocking news today out of Texas”.

    8. Monique fired people without cause! INJUSTICE!!

    9. Monique is insane! “I just pulled up the motion to withdraw on the Texas Supreme Court website, and all I can think is that this is crazy.”

    10. It is all Monique’s fault! “Whatever broke up this relationship, it would not appear to be the quality of the legal representation”.

    11. Monique got sneaky and went back channel! “We’re seeing a lot of commenters assuming that a secret settlement deal had already been worked out, and that as part of it Scientology asked that Monique fire her attorneys.”

    O.K. Tony is giving this item O.K.?

    12. Monique will be negotiating with David Miscavige! Talks have not yet begun! “Talking to several people familiar with the case, we believe that settlement talks with Scientology have not yet begun.”

    13. Monique on par with the mentally ill! “I think this is the most absurd action by a client that I have seen in my 20 years of practicing, except for actions taken by prisoners or mentally disturbed plaintiffs.”

    14. Monique terminates everybody!! “But Mrs. Rathbun is terminating everybody,” (She’s the terminator)

    15. Someone needs to bypass Monique and force her! “Can they force Monique to hold on to these attorneys, even if she’s fired them?”

    Again, you fire employees. Monique did not employ anyone, she was represented by professionals winning fee.

    16. Monique is a mental case and her welfare is in question! “Many readers, feeling an understandable concern for Monique’s welfare..”

    Note, Lenny Zenburg enters left with a comment: “Marty, Tony is not your enemy”.

    17. Marty is dazed and confused too! Paranoid!

    18. The settlement is a done deal! “A lot of our readers are speculating that the Rathbuns have already worked out a settlement with Miscavige and Scientology.”

    19. Monique is now exposed to violence!! “But if that’s not the case, what might Miscavige, given Scientology’s long track record of scorched-earth legal tactics, do to take advantage of Monique’s exposure?”

    20. Both of the Rathbun’s are crazy and Marty is too ignorant to manage!! “And even if the Supreme Court decides not to take the case, how are the Rathbuns going to deal with a dozen or so attorneys back in the trial court, without a legal team of their own? That’s why this is so crazy. I can’t read Marty Rathbun’s mind. All I can do is look at this from an outside legal observer’s perspective. And I can’t come up with any realistic way this move makes sense. If Marty thinks he knows more about David Miscavige than Ray Jeffrey does, I suspect Marty is about to find out that he knows way less about the courtroom than Miscavige’s lawyers know.”

    Note, here, Tony grills attorney about the “secret settlement”.

    “Our readers constantly ask, is there a secret settlement deal between Monique and the church?

    Jeffries: I am aware of absolutely nothing in that regard, and I personally don’t believe that there’s anything like that. ”

    What? Tony just mentioned it, are you crazy Ray? Never mind, Ray is clueless obviously.

    Comedy moment here. Now Ray Jeffries considers himself terminated too. “We haven’t been privy to anything to do with settlement negotiations or what Monique is going to do since we were terminated.”

    So, when you no longer agree to be represented, you are terminated. An attorney is not an employee. They perfom, in a courtroom, for a fee. Or a tip. Just like topless dancers. Let’s keep it real people.

    21. Things you can blame Monique for! Ray Jeffries interview.

    Has it hurt your law practice to take on several cases of Scientology litigation? (Right it hurt him to walk that Debbie Cook check all the way to the bank. Needed a chiropractor.) But the insinuation is there. Ray has been hurt.

    “I wouldn’t have traded what I went through for anything. Debbie Cook is a fantastic person who somehow got through everything the church put her through. Paul Merrick and Greg Arnold were delightful people that very few people got to know. They had a lot of integrity and I really enjoyed getting to know them. And then Monique, as everyone can tell, is a fantastic human being and a lovely person. She’s so caring and down to earth. It’s hard to be around her and not like her. So, as far as my law practice over the last few years, it’s been great to be around these people. We spent thousands of hours working on Monique’s case. We probably invested a million dollars in it, and we did it without hesitation. Was that difficult on my law practice? Yes, it was. But it’s not something I regret at all.

    So you don’t regret taking Monique’s case? (Still digging for anything new to bury Monique. The press and prestige and bankroll Jeffries was granted for all of his time knowing these people should be causing him regret, right????)

    “Monique is right. She was treated horrifically. She didn’t deserve any of what they put her through, and they should pay for it. The Austin appeals court found that this ridiculous Squirrel Buster activity wasn’t protected free speech. If that saves one other person from being harassed, it was worth it.”

    Oh, someone had something decent to say. But who hears it? The head is already full of wrong items, wrong indications, wrong whos and wrong whys!

    22. Monique is wallowing in injustice! ” But just before that happened, Monique Rathbun fired her entire legal team, even though she had been on a winning streak.”

    23.We are so full of good will! “So now Monique is on the clock. We wish her the best, and hope she can get some good help preparing her document.” (But when it looks like she did get help, tony protests on his blog that Marty might have helped her!) “We want to add one more observation which has probably occurred to others. (If it hasn’t I will put it there) We’ve read three books by Marty Rathbun, and this document sure sounds like him and his “inimical” style.”

    24. Moniques mental health is declining! Bizarre behavior! “In a bizarre document, Monique makes accusations that her former attorneys — Ray Jeffrey, Marc Wiegand, Elliott Cappuccio, and Leslie Hyman — had made it “abundantly clear” that the lawsuit was “not worth it financially,” ”

    Who cares what Monique is saying? She’s gone mad!! She reports her reasons, and it is translated as “Bizarre behavior”.

    This is Gaslighting now.

    25. Monique is plain stupid! “This comes after Monique’s attorneys had actually been on a winning streak, with two major decisions against Scientology at the trial court and appellate court levels. Now, however, Monique says she wants to drop the matter because, she says, her lawyers had not listened to how she wanted the case to proceed.”

    Note: Who cares if her attorneys went rogue? This is coming from a mentally deficient woman after all?

    Jeffries enters with a comment: ” He added, “I will say that the case has put a lot of strain on the Rathbuns, and I wish them well.”

    (Awww, maybe Tony Ortega has put a lot of strain on the Rathbun’s?)

    26. Monique is a liar liar! “The grandstanding in the motion is really something. It states pretty clearly that Ray Jeffrey and the rest of the legal team performed a “retreat” from the case and told Monique that the case was not financially worth litigating. That seems rather unlikely to me, given how diligently things appeared to be proceeding throughout the motions practice in the trial court and the arguments on appeal.”

    27. And if the attorneys performing for tips went rogue and so therefore MISREPRESENTED, who cares? ” I can maybe see the lawyers declining to pursue the client’s preferred strategy because it didn’t make sense to do so, but it’s hard to see the case overall as something they were not willing to continue litigating.”

    28. We suspect facts are being hidden and the Rathbuns are sneaky! “There is nothing in the document referring to a settlement being reached with the defendants.”

    29. Ray Jeffries should start listing too and keep an eye on the Rathbuns!
    Ray may have to fight his crazy client to get paid!
    “Ray Jeffrey and the other attorneys will have to wonder if such a deal has been made, and how they will get a piece of it after what Monique has said in this document.”

    30. Backlines dealing!! ” I do not think there is a settlement, at least not anything formal.”

    31 The sneaky Rathbuns went back lines and cut the lawyers out! Good luck busting them! Maybe maybe maybe! If if if!.” Now is it possible that Marty thinks he worked out some sort of informal settlement or understanding without any of the lawyers being involved? Maybe. But good luck enforcing something like that if it actually happened.”

    32. The Rathbuns are a train wreck! ” If I were in Ray Jeffrey’s shoes, I use them to walk away from this trainwreck.”

    O.K. so why don’t you who are still in mystery, or listing, or, “knowledge hungry”, go back over this list items and sort out who’s items these are. And which are right right items for you.

    None of the above are my items. I didn’t make these my items. I’m just getting emails from group hypnosis:

    On 4/28/2016 10:15 PM, XXXX XXXXX wrote:
    Did you read on Tony O’s site about Monique dropping the suit and trashing her lawyers?

    This is just when they were winning.

    I think the church got to them and made a secret deal and included a demand that they fire the lawyers and trash talk them. And the verbiage used is Marty to a tee. Monique never talked like that…. “inimitable”

    I think when the church sees they are losing, they hurry up and settle and then put gag orders as part of the settlement. And in this case pout in a demand that they fire the attorneys and issue derogatory statements about them. This is so that others will think hard before taking on a case against Scn.

    What do you think happened and why Mosey withdrew, fired them, and nattered about them?


    From TOMO. Tony Ortega’s messenger Org.

  155. I know what you mean, Grasshopper.

    The last time I posted on Tony’s blog I was accused of being a “spoofer troll”. It sounded downright pornographic, and I kinda liked it.

    I have been accused of being an “Indie”, and a “freezoner” as well, for daring to say something neutral about L Ron Hubbard or Scientology. Most people who know me believe that I am as anti-Scientology as you can get, and have been for over a dacade. But not at the Bunker: I’m a Spoofer Troll for the Indie Movement.

    It just shows how clueless the people are there who are making these accusations. They’re in their own little world, and show no responsibility to learn anything about what they are writing about on the Internet for the whole world to see. They are given a certain set of assumptions and they swallow them whole. They never even examine these assumptions, let alone test them before they write something.

    I have come to see a computer as a kind of operant conditioning device which presents things for us to get outraged by, day after day. The longer we are conditioned by this device, the more conditioned is the outrage and disgust that we feel. When you have a whole group of people all being conditioned to be outraged day after day by the same things, you get whole blocks of people who move and become disgusted in unison, like a school of ugly and vicious piranha.

    George Orwell talked about this in 1984. It was called 2 Minutes of Hate

    It’s not a good place for an ex-Scientologist to be. Like you say, after Scientology you have to be ruthless with the truth. It’s the only way to evolve and grow.

    Places like the Underground Bunker and ESMB are not places where anyone is going to evolve and grow.


  156. The Oracle

    Well, this wraps up my testimony on the comm ev convened on the Rathbun’s over at Ortega’s place. And over on ESMB. Don’t bother sending a copy of the findings and recs.

  157. The Oracle

    That was very sexy, yes, I liked that. You get me. Very sexy.

  158. The Oracle

    Hey Buddy, I wish you joy and happiness too!

  159. The Oracle

    Anne, please under your usual. Note the memo:

    15. Bait and feign innocence.

    Toxic individuals lure you into a false sense of security simply to have a platform to showcase their cruelty. Baiting you into a mindless, chaotic argument can escalate into a showdown rather quickly with someone who doesn’t know the meaning of respect. A simple disagreement may bait you into responding politely initially, until it becomes clear that the person has a malicious motive of tearing you down.

  160. Chee Chalker

    Exactly… Why would Kilgore have so much information about Ortega unless he got it from a dead agent file. Marty is posting range by John Sugg. Tells you what you need to know…
    Now, back to the Oracle blog….

  161. The Oracle

    Dang, this a high maintenance babysitting gig. I’m trashed.

  162. The Oracle

    I don’t know how you did it all those years Marty.

  163. The Oracle

    Feels like I just spent another winter in Juvenile Hall in the South Bronx.

    Maybe this is a prison planet.

  164. “Marty and his wife . . . to lift the crowd up. 95% of that crowd is hell bent on setting up others for losses.” WHOA! 95% of all participants on the Bunker and ESMB? And you wonder why people “attack” you?

  165. That’s exactly what I think yes. How did you know that I think that? You are a mind reading CIA agent that contracts with the NSA, clearly.

  166. Mark C. Rathbun

    How can one ruin a train wreck?

  167. The Oracle

    Reading through Tony’s docs, he used the word “settlement” so many times it just laid into people like an implant. Love the way he managed to shift Monique’s role from “Client” to ” Crazy Employer”. And also misrepresent her. Even his “Texas legal expert” had the decency to refer to Monique as a “Client”.

    “Antagonizing unhappy clients is a bad idea unless they’re sitting on a large amount of cash that you have a solid claim to recover from them, and that seems not to be the situation here.”

    This was a real whammy, Tony goes right back in there and puts that item right back on the table after the “legal expert” removed it from the table aftre being asked once.

    The Bunker: If you were Ray Jeffrey, what would you do if you suspected that there’s a secret deal between the Rathbuns and Scientology?

    He just keeps shoving it down their throats.

  168. That is the funiest thing I ever “witnessed”on this blog.

  169. Derek, get a grip

  170. Promote feelings of guilt or unworthiness, such as
    a. Identity guilt
    b. You are not living up to your potential
    c. Your family is deficient
    d. Your past is suspect
    e. Your affiliations are unwise
    f. Your thoughts, feelings, actions are irrelevant or selfish
    g. Social guilt
    h. Historical guilt

    O God I know this so well

  171. The way you arrogantly categorize yourself away from other people. It just shows how you can lead a high horse to water, but then it sees other horses, that it thinks are beneath it, drinking the water, so it would rather go thirsty.

    I know that will blow right over your head because in your mind I am furiously pleasuring myself to Tony’s image as I write this, and I’d have a hard time taking anyone seriously with that kind of mental image too.

    Word of advice. Stop painting everyone with the same colored brush and maybe try to consider me as an individual and others as an individual once in a while. You might find you actually like some of us when you get off of the pedestal that you put yourself on.

    Or maybe that’s what you’re afraid of.

  172. Kilgore Trout III –

    I still do not think that the links you have provided give enough evidence to support your claims that Tony Ortega had “an amazing list of fabricated and hyped stories”, “Plus he was happily the huckster for child prostitution via Village Voice’s”.

    I see one story that was written as obvious satire. That isn’t an amazing list of fabricated and hyped stories, Kilgore.

    And your “happily the huckster for child prostitution” turns out to be an article he wrote in defense of the media company he worked for – nothing in support of child prostitution at all.

    This is what I’m talking about, Kilgore.

    It’s bush league, buddy.

    Already in your last reply to me I can see that you are capable of making a point and following up with it.

    And in your favor, you did something that a troll would never do: You came back repeatedly, under the same name, with the evidence you were using to make your claims.

    I appreciate that.

    The evidence just didn’t match the claims, that’s all.

    Keep trying.

    A lot of people here know who I am. I’ve been around for a long time. My real name is Allen Stanfield, I now live in the midwest, and I was involved in Scientology for 16 years. I left in the year 2000 and have been a critic of Scientology since then as “Alanzo”. I have a blog which you can reach by clicking my avatar, and you can email me privately from there, too.

    You can do it, Kilgore. I believe in you. You can present Scientology in a sane, stable and productive way so that more of the positive truth about Scientology gets known.

    I hope to be seeing you around.


  173. Path of Buddha

    My own interest in the Underground Bunker was sparked by the comments made by John Atack. I read his book twice and found helpful information about Hubbard and Scientology. He had a time line filled with interesting things that happened that I did not know about. While I waited for Atack’s next post, the blog was sort of taking random shots at Hubbard, Miscavige, or the subject of Scientology itself. In the end, Atack had to dig deep for new information about Hubbard and Scientology. He started to run out. His last meeting in Toronto was designed to seal the case against Scientology. Since Atack, the blog has had to struggle with news events which center around the idea that Scientology rips a family apart. Well, Plato had the idea that the family be replaced by state run early group child development. Marty’s blog, to his credit, spent years taking apart Scientology to its inner core. The material posted would fill volumes. In the meantime, I don’t see much difference in PR condition between 1972 and 2016. The Village Voice in 1972 was running page after page of criticism of Scientology. New York radio was outpouring hatred. It was not in color like today.
    So Hubbard was a 20th century man in the 21st century chasing windmills.
    He had a lot of good techniques which I found useful. He hit me from a different viewpoint. I was a product of the Catholic School system who was set up for Scientology just like Tom Cruise and John Travolta. I studied exorcism in the 6th grade. Boy, was I ready for the OT levels. Sister Polycarpa should have taught me Blavatsky and Crowley. Then I would have been able to fend off Hubbard and Scientology.
    Much Metta to all bloggers left, right and center.

  174. Mark C. Rathbun

    When you begin to act like one you’ll be treated as one.

  175. The Oracle

    Seriously Alanzo? You have a protest read on Tony Being called out for pimping children?

  176. The Oracle

    Right baby! It can not be true! Tony never pimped children! And Salon is being run by OSA! “Just a few years ago, activists managed to convince publications like New York magazine and the Washington Post to cut out massage parlor ads — but not the Village Voice”. Um, wasn’t Tony there as editor during this time? “Not so long ago, though, adult print ads were also being targeted — on the grounds that they promoted illegal activity, including trafficking.”

    Let’s dig on this and get to the truth!

  177. “Places like the Underground Bunker and ESMB are not places where anyone is going to evolve and grow.”

    Nah. Hundreds, perhaps thousands, of personal stories or grievances have been and continue to be aired and be acknowledged. Sometimes that’s all it takes. Old timers who are bored and like to natter or gossip will continue to do so.

  178. The Oracle

    Why do you think Tony is hell bent on accusing Marty of taking unholy money and looking the other way. Marty is feeding his kid, Tony was selling them.

  179. The Oracle

    “Several members of the City Council in New York have also introduced a piece of resolution that asks Village Voice Media to close down the adult section because it is being used as a “platform to traffic minors for sex.”

    “In some cases, adults are pictured but minors are substituted at the “point of sale” in a grossly illegal transaction, the prosecutors said.”

  180. There is nothing in that article at all about Tony Ortega “pimping children”.

    You are becoming unhinged, Oracle.

    Settle down. Do a locational on yourself.



  181. The Oracle

    It took activists groups, the New York City Counsel, and New York Prosecutors to make it stop! And grown assed people are here pretending it never happened? I’m thinking you and baby are being pimped by Tony Ortega at this point. Seriously man. How are you people O.K. with that? Why do you think I get inflamed when he uses his blog to torment and fair game children? He banned me for criticizing him about it! Like I was the outpoint!!!

  182. There are very few Ex-Scn stories aired on ESMB any more.

    The overwhelming majority of posts there are about denigrating other people. Mostly other critics.

    Very few issues regarding Scientology are even discussed there any more.

    ESMB is a great place to search, because of all the people in the past who dumped their stories there on the way out of Scientology, and before moving on down the road.

    It’s actually a gold mine for research if you know where to look. But it’s seen better days. I really do not think the Ex-Scientology Message Board is a good place for an Ex -Scientologist any more.


  183. The Oracle

    New York City prosecutors had to take on that man! Do you think they had some ulterior motives beyond getting the activist groups off their backs?

  184. I’m gripping things just fine. I haven’t dropped anything in days? Not sure what you’re getting at.

  185. The Oracle

    27 Advertisers Leave Village Voice Following Child Sex Ad Scandal:

    Village Voice Advertisers Fleeing After Sex Trafficking Scandal


    To date, 92,315 people have signed the petition and concerned council members in New York are now also fighting to put a stop to the site’s trafficking.

    His followers can overlook and forgive Tony for profiting off of other people’s misery. Even children’s! And when he can not profit off of Monique’s, they go postal. On her!

    These are his people.

  186. The Oracle

    Oh, guess who else fled? Took the money and run? Tony Ortega!

  187. The Oracle

    Need to know also, how much profit Tony pulled down pimping children in New York through the Villiage Voice. Stats please?

  188. The Oracle


  189. I didn’t really want to “out” my true beliefs on this….but ME TOO!! I also think DM is a gov agent planted as a child!

    Here’s a little somethin’ fer ya Derek from them Best Coast kids…

  190. The Oracle

    Oh! Here come the threats to publish my P.C, folder data!
    People with a colorful past tend to get exposed. Sooner or later it comes out.

    Let it rip! Send the scoop to Tony Ortega!

  191. The Oracle

    P.S. Bring the auditors that wrote the novels to court with you.

  192. The Oracle


  193. The Oracle

    You do a location on what a newspaper staff is responsible for. Who is responsible for bringing the advertising dollars? Who is responsible for the advertising? Where is the the profit coming in advertising? How is that getting paid for? Who is responsible for that income flow? How was that money made? Prostitutes paid for that advertising either directly through their services rendered.

    Full Definition of pimp
    : a criminal who is associated with, usually exerts control over, and lives off the earnings of one or more prostitutes.

  194. Someonewishingyouwell

    Mark/Marty I’m going to be I Laguna this weekend, will be thinking of you.
    There will be places that we both enjoyed in the crazy 70s. Wishing you and
    yours joy.

  195. The Oracle

    Tony was the editor-in-chief of The Village Voice from 2007 to 2012. That is where he got his paycheck from.The editor in chief is ultimately responsible for the final product the paper produces. He sets the tone, editorial direction and policies for the publication and makes sure every issue is consistent on these measures. He is involved in budgeting and strategic planning. An editor-in-chief is a publication’s editorial leader, having final responsibility for all operations and policies. The editor-in-chief heads all the departments of the organization and is held accountable for delegating tasks to staff members and managing them.They are in charge of creating editorial boards and overseeing all department editors. The editor-in-chief has the final say on what gets published.

    The editor-in-chief is responsible for hiring, especially of the assistant editors. With the assistant editors, the editor-in-chief creates the editorial board, or outline, for each of the publication’s editions or issues. The editor-in-chief reviews all articles and photographs for accuracy as well as potential libel or slander, and provides suggestions, if needed, about any changes to make before the publication goes to press or is released digitally. Layouts and design need approval by the editor-in-chief. In the end, the editor-in-chief has the final word about which stories and photos get published.

    The editor-in-chief meets regularly with the publisher or publication board to discuss issues, plans, and other business relating to the publication. The editor-in-chief has the responsibility of drawing up budget proposals and any other information requested by the publisher. The editor-in-chief generates ideas for new ways of doing things, such as using new technology, implementing ways to increase readership, and how to utilize new media. Tough problems are often handled by the editor-in-chief, and advice about editorial issues is also provided. Whenever a social function happens, the editor-in-chief is the publication’s representative, and some travel can be required. He consistently monitors the section editors, business manager and ADVERTISING.

    Most newspapers are businesses, and they pay their expenses (such as journalists’ wages, printing costs, and distribution costs) with a mixture of subscription revenue, newsstand sales, and advertising revenue (other businesses or individuals pay to place advertisements in the pages, including display ads, classified ads, and their online equivalents).

  196. The Oracle

    So YES, he lived off the earnings of children that were being prostituted.
    That does not make me “unhinged” to understand how he did it.

  197. The Oracle

    “The paper has also increasingly been dealing with legal and political drama due to its online adult classifieds operation.”

    Yeah, under Tony’s command.

    Yes, Tony KNEW about this. He was well aware children were being used.

  198. Chee Chalker

    You are a gifted writer Derek. You get your points across without hiding behind philosophical rants.

    Oh, Marty, let me save you the time…..I know, ‘QED. Double standard’

  199. People just had problems communicating. Their wants and needs. At the end of the day, what did the people really want and need in a leader? The crowd more or less split three ways.

    A warlock. (Hubbard)

    A dictating Daddy: (Miscavige or copies of him)

    A gambler. (Ray Jeffires)

    A Pimp. (Tony Oretga)

    At the end of the day, most people got what they wanted and needed. Handled my “survivor’s guilt”.

    I can really “Move on up a little higher”.

  200. Ray and Tony count as a unit.

  201. George Layton

    Bring some volunteer ministers in for touch assists afterword?

  202. Thank you Alanzo. I agree.

  203. ‘Spoofer troll’?, ‘Indie’?, ‘freezoner’? Pfft! Is that all you got?
    I am the mentally ill, psychotic, jealous, second coming of the Anti-Christ Xenu. A ‘Drama Quee’n capable of covertly brainwashing masses of people into joining my evil plot to become the most famousist ex Scientologist EVER (in this sector of the universe). I alone am the great divider and conquerer AND the destroyer of ex Scientology ‘careers’. Currently however, I am on a break from Xenu Services Inc. being the ‘Kingpin’ for Marty’s OSA program to destroy the career of yet another of Hollywood’s… erm I mean Ex Scientology’s leading lights.
    Date coincident with the whispering campaign that I am mentally ill (further fuelled by Jon Atack’s mouthpiece’ ‘Spike’ and Pete’s trolls on SPs ‘r’ US), I called out Jim Beverly, Karen De LC, Jon Atack, Pete Griffiths and cult-troll Colleen Rose for making money out of dead kids. All my friends were instantly ejected from Pete Griffiths’ and ‘Rapture’s’ cult SPs ‘r’ US and Karen De La Carriere’s group ‘Outer Banks’ concurrently and the new group (The Ministry of Flying Ducks) we formed to provide sanctuary for those who no-longer wanted to be bought and sold wholesale was labelled a ‘hate group’
    I lodged my complaints about profiteering on the victims with one of Ortega’s number one fans at the time. Her response? “Everyone has a right to make money”
    I would like to publicly thank Marisa Sigmond, Karl Foster and Hayley Murfin. Who helped me to create ‘Ducks’ and make it a safe place for those who refused to bow down to the cult of Atack/Ortega/Griffiths, De La Carriere (and whoever has taken over ESMB and is deleting ‘entheta’ comments) when those four monsters (with Colleen in tow) launched their black PR campaign on not only myself, but everyone connected to me.
    Thanks Marty. And Mosey. Hugs to the little one. We will all come and visit you once the stench of hubris and narcissism has cleared a little. This has been a very long time coming and I have some close friends I’d like you to meet.
    I’ll leave the floor open now for Beth, Brian, Pete, Rap, JD, Karen, Andrea, ‘Colleen’ and their merry flock to further malign our characters while I get on with making an honest living renovating and selling my house.
    OSA – see you on 21st. Kyle is paying a visit to East Grinstead next – suggest you start preparing to answer some tough questions when you attempt to parade Tom Cruise around the UK promoting your filth. Kyle is coming to a town near you and your boss won’t like it so you might want to stop dicking around with socks and deal with the real issues before the RPF assignments start flying (don’t say we didn’t warn you). Go home. Your disconnected loved ones miss you.

  204. A very good post. A point by point elucidation. I won’t dwell on it, though, for the following reason.

    I used to refer to myself as having a one track mind. From reading and participating on the blogs for the last several months, I’ve realized that I can become obsessive in my thinking. This has its plus points and outpoints. If I get interested in a subject, I can get a lot out of it fast. But if I get on a negative train of thought, I can quickly waste time (life) following that.

    I’m becoming much better at spotting and exiting my negative thinking. It remains a work in progress.

    I think that the last few topics about Cult Mind, Groupthink, and Us vs. Them had value. I might make another comment or two here, then it’s time to focus elsewhere.

  205. Marisa Sigmond, Karl Foster and Hayley Murfin
    same moderators that were on SPs …. at least 2/3 …hehehe. funny…

    Big hello from LRHs Bulgravia.

    (sorry if mistaken.)

  206. who is your daddy?

    Big hello from LRHs Bulgravia.

  207. I think I get Martys answers …… some people dont….

    Big hello from LRHs Bulgravia.

  208. Oracle – all due respect (and most humbly) you have a LOT of good information but it gets lost if the posts are too long. As a writer I suggest editing stuff down a bit so we don’t miss the point. As a human being I say let it rip and let it out if that’s what you need to do x

  209. Laughter!

  210. Thank you. I don’t dwell either. This went on over MONTHS and I said , and I think Marty said, pretty much zip about it. So, this is a weeks worth of comments to something that that was going on for 1/3 of a year. I realize people have attitudes, fine. I do not want to take those away from them. Those made them everything they are today. I wouldn’t take that away from anyone.I realize people are deliberately and willfully blind and oblivious, for reasons I can’t know. Not a problem for me. I realize people are gullible and hypnotic. It solves some problem for them so it works for them. I could have kept on walking on this and never bothered to bring it up. But when you get on the Internet, and you start accusing people of being insane, when they are not. Saying they are lying, when they are telling the truth. Saying people are tripping, when they are being perfectly reasonable, spreading more wrong indications and wrong items, and contributing to conditions that keep people in the dark, that is straight up injustice.Especially if you are doing it to some that does not do those things as part of social intercourse. It is so unholy it is against 2000 year old biblical policy. “Do not bear false witness”. If you let it ride, you contribute to i as another sin. It becomes something you granted life to. And the people sponsoring it, have your approval on it. And it is a form of identity theft. If you do not sort it out, they use your silence as token you support it. There are more than 10,000 comments on Tony’s blog about this whole matter. But if there are 100 , 50 here, it looks like a scene (according to some authorities who measure out with attitudes and become suddenly alarmed, if it be known there is a person in their midst, who is going to turn on a overhead light and get a glimpse of the real dust particles). When people are doing this for 1/3 of a year, going after your family members, setting them up for losses, you have every right, to fix that. Those are unholy buttons to push and to be honest, Tony wouldn’t do this to his next door neighbor in New York or he would have had his throat cut. After a week end. People torture over the Internet because they are far away from you, and this is deliberate cruelty and sadism. You lay down the truth about it, so you DON’T dwell on it.

  211. Alanzo, the Internet banner for that page says it is for Ex’s. It is not and has not been for some time. That is a complete fraud. There was a “group” decision there, that “Ex”, means “Anti”. And if you have not done a reverse A to E, and stated that everything you thought and did in Scientology, was stupid and unfounded, you do not qualify as an “Ex”. It is an ANTI forum. It has been for a long time. The people are misrepresenting even on the banner. They are so covert, they can’t even admit or be straight up about their own group. Even while hiding on the Internet. So, “Ex”‘s go by there and read the posts, and move on. It is a DETOUR ANT so people very specifically do NOT, “meet up there, share their experiences, and reunite”. It is a repellent.

  212. “Do It Anyway”

    The verses below reportedly were written on the wall of Mother Teresa’s home for children in Calcutta, India, and are widely attributed to her.

    Some sources say that the words below were written on the wall in Mother Teresa’s own room. In any case, their association with Mother Teresa and the Missionaries of Charity has made them popular worldwide, expressing as they do, the spirit in which they lived their lives.

    They seem to be based on a composition originally by Kent Keith, but much of the second half has been re-written in a more spiritual way. Both versions are shown below.


    1. The version found written on the wall in Mother Teresa’s home for children in Calcutta:

    People are often unreasonable, irrational, and self-centered. Forgive them anyway.

    If you are kind, people may accuse you of selfish, ulterior motives. Be kind anyway.

    If you are successful, you will win some unfaithful friends and some genuine enemies. Succeed anyway.

    If you are honest and sincere people may deceive you. Be honest and sincere anyway.

    What you spend years creating, others could destroy overnight. Create anyway.

    If you find serenity and happiness, some may be jealous. Be happy anyway.

    The good you do today, will often be forgotten. Do good anyway.

    Give the best you have, and it will never be enough. Give your best anyway.

    In the final analysis, it is between you and God. It was never between you and them anyway.

    -this version is credited to Mother Teresa


    2. The Original Version:

    The Paradoxical Commandments

    by Dr. Kent M. Keith

    People are illogical, unreasonable, and self-centered.
    Love them anyway.
    If you do good, people will accuse you of selfish ulterior motives.
    Do good anyway.
    If you are successful, you win false friends and true enemies.
    Succeed anyway.
    The good you do today will be forgotten tomorrow.
    Do good anyway.
    Honesty and frankness make you vulnerable.
    Be honest and frank anyway.
    The biggest men and women with the biggest ideas can be shot down by the smallest men and women with the smallest minds.
    Think big anyway.
    People favor underdogs but follow only top dogs.
    Fight for a few underdogs anyway.
    What you spend years building may be destroyed overnight.
    Build anyway.
    People really need help but may attack you if you do help them.
    Help people anyway.
    Give the world the best you have and you’ll get kicked in the teeth.
    Give the world the best you have anyway.
    © 1968, 2001 Kent M. Keith

  213. It’s not between me and them.

  214. XXOO

  215. Chee Chalker

    Is today ‘due time’? The day we see the ‘documented evidence’ of the vast Bunker conspiracy against you?

  216. The Oracle wrote:

    “There was a “group” decision there, that “Ex”, means “Anti”. And if you have not done a reverse A to E, and stated that everything you thought and did in Scientology, was stupid and unfounded, you do not qualify as an “Ex”.

    I have to agree with you there, Oracle.

    Most of the dead-enders left stranded on ESMB are stuck inside a nasty and fixed set of attitudes about Dianetics, Scientology, and L Ron Hubbard, and just about everything else.

    They are stuck in a negative feedback loop of the emotions of disgust and outrage, as they click on the various posts on ESMB and sneer at what they see there.

    The overwhelming majority of ESMBers have never fully examined their time in the cult, outside of the agreements of other ESMBers, except to develop the worst possible interpretations of the life they spent as a Scientologist.

    The most developed part of an ESMBer is their bile duct. They use it every day to enforce their cognitive distortions on to every other poster. They continue to spray their nasty sauce on to everyone who posts there. They even spray their nasty sauce onto people who don’t post there.

    ESMB is no longer the place it was. In early 2007-2008, it was a main place where exes went to tell their stories so they could be heard on the internet. Other media at that time refused to tell their stories because they were still intimidated by Scientology.

    I think that ESMB heavily influenced the rise of Anonymous, for example.

    Today, the best use of ESMB is as a database: the vault of recorded history of a time before Anonymous, and the time before Marty and Mike blew – the guys who used to intimidate the media for the Church.

    It’s a piece of history which will never be repeated.

    And that’s a good thing.


  217. George Layton

    Anyone here have any information they would care to share about Dennison Academy and GED’s that were presented to children around the age of 12?

  218. The Oracle


    And, you’ve got to see this to believe it. Never mind, apparently seeing is not believing anymore.

    On Tony’s blog today he showcases a one line letter. He has a photo of the letter there, for all to see. See with their own eyes! Read!

    The one lines says, “Do you resort to drinking to solve things or do you have another solution?”

    I mean, it is right there, clear as day. Well, I guess not after all.

    Tony instructs his flock, that what the letter reads is, and I mean this is after he displays it and says, “let that sink in”, what this note is really saying is, “We are watching you”.

    Yes, the letter is saying “We are watching you.” He instructs.
    Weaves a tale of private investigators and stalking behind it.

    And you know, they are spell bound. They see what he tells them they are seeing. With the fkn letter right there for them to read.

    This is true hypnotism.

    I mean, not one person questions! Not one person says even politely, “Um excuse me, Mr. Ortega, but all I am really seeing is a piece of paper with a question that reads, “Do you resort to drinking to solve things or do you have another solution?”

    Over there, this means , “We are watching you”. It also means private investigators and stalking. Because Tony told them, this is what they are really seeing. And. I read the comments in disbelief.

    Seeing, is not believing. You can’t make this stuff up.


  219. Mark C. Rathbun

    Did you earlier assert that you are a lawyer?

  220. The Oracle


  221. The Oracle

    P.S. I have some unhandled, unholy issues. This should be disturbing and appalling, yet, I find it hysterically funny. I can’t stop laughing. It is even giving me naughty ideas. I have this urge to contact Tony Ortega, and ask him to teach me how he does it.

  222. Al, I bet you have the knowledge and insight to make or at least contribute to a great documentary – one that would result in much better journalism than “Going Clear.” For example, you’ve shown your intention to remain level-headed and fair-minded by not immediately swallowing anything negative said about Tony Ortega. (I say that even though, with all due respect, I’m not sure you weren’t doing a pendulum swing.)

  223. Spot-on assessment, Oracle.

  224. You can be loyal to what you think is the truth. And you can be loyal to who you think are your friends.

    Whenever these come into conflict, I choose to be loyal to the truth.

    This lets me know who my true friends are.


  225. Well said.

  226. The Oracle

    P.S. I consulted the Gods. It isn’t a craft, it’s the crowd.

  227. The Oracle

    They also told me to stop spinning my wheels on Ortega, he was just the messenger. He himself is too gullible. He was assured by an “all knowing” “reliable source” there was a settlement, or he wouldn’t have had the heart to brazenly pursued the issue. This has been an unknown, (invisible), quantity in the arena. Everyone is playing cards with the full deck. And Marty has an undisclosed enemy.

  228. The Oracle

    In so many words, Tony also, is a slave of sleep. And easily mislead.

  229. The Oracle

    I alter ised. I said, “easily mislead”. They said, “Wholly misguided”.

    I said, Tony would have the “heart”, they said, Tony wouldn’t have had the balls.

  230. The Oracle

    On the undisclosed enemy, that was meaning undisclosed to me and in general in the incident. But not undisclosed to Marty. Whatever that means.

  231. I know. I’m an old man though.

    Cyber-bullying is elder abuse to me.

    Alanzo 🙂

  232. Ummm not so much. A few speculated that it might just be a rote letter that was sent out to many to bring in folks who did something long ago with them. It was bandied about without anyone breaking a sweat. Someone even created and posted a joking “form letter” from which you could choose options for this purpose. Lots of upvotes were had by all.

  233. “This has been an unknown, (invisible), quantity in the arena. Everyone is playing cards with the full deck. And Marty has an undisclosed enemy.”

    Wow. Sounds like Hubbard’s Third Party Law. He did get some things right.

  234. The Oracle

    And that Marty should know, and does know, he is, “in favor” with the Gods. The “others” are not. The treason. So,your paths will diverge anyway.

    Look forward. Look forward to success and clear skies with true friendships. “Both” children are in favor with the Gods. (Whatever that means). Monique is in favor with the Gods, some are smitten. “She carries the Nile within”.

    For me, to “Walk forward and do not look back” as it has already “turned to stone”. Maybe that means, ancient news already. Or, there is no life left.

  235. The Oracle

    Looking forward. A plague that set upon us, will be lifted within this year.

  236. The Oracle

    Sounds like I’m out the loop to me, that’s all.

    I know you have an agenda, but you are pretty open about it. It isn’t a hidden agenda. And you are a good willed being. Even though our viewpoints do not align, we have managed to co exist through good will. We learned that ourselves, contrary to things Hubbard wrote.

    So, this one is for you.

  237. Chee Chalker

    Yes sir. If you would like, I could email you a copy of my law degree after I dust it off a bit….(I’m not one for dusting).

  238. Thanks. I appreciate your good will too.

    My agenda is to do my best to speak my truth. That seems to be your agenda too, so in that sense we can’t be that different.

  239. Odin.

  240. The Oracle

    Odin is the primal animating force that permeates all life. Or, to put it in Nietzschean terms, he’s the Will to Power (German die Wille zur Macht) that dwells at the heart of the world, by which the cosmos eternally strives to overcome itself, to grow and to flourish and to sweep away stagnation. The shamans, rulers, warriors, outlaws, poets, and sorcerers who enjoy Odin’s patronage are the highest ambassadors of óðr, the ultimate and unconditional life-affirming force.

  241. Please don’t try to rewrite history. Neither you nor “all [your] friends” were “instantly ejected” from SPs R Us. After airing your complaints in a thread that ended up with more than 500 comments, you all quit en masse and went off to start your own group.

    And aside from a few digs I made at the time, when everyone’s temper was flaring, I haven’t had anything to say publicly about you or your friends.

  242. Hi Beth –

    I have a lot of respect for your intelligence and your good judgement.

    So I have a question for you: I know that SPs-R-US engages in censorship of people’s views because I had a day long discussion with Pete and Perry Leynor about this a couple of weeks ago.

    They just blatantly told me that my views, and the questions I was raising about Tony Ortega’s biases, would not be published on SPs R Us.

    Now if a person serves as a journalist for a community, as Tony Ortega does, and journalists are supposed to be unbiased, shouldn’t criticism of a bias in a journalist’s writings be an important topic for discussion – in any self-respecting forum that pretends to serve its community?

    SPs-R-Us really doesn’t serve the interests of the community of SPs and critics of Scientology, does it? It serves its own clique, and their views.

    Am I right about that?

    Or Not?


  243. Sorry. I meant to say ‘bullied off’ not ‘thrown off’. My mistake.

  244. We were all admins at one time. The point was to create a democratic group. Then Pete and Rap took it over and posted their own admins to make sure orders were obeyed not to post things that might upset the new landlord and his tenants. As for staring our own group – we did – all four of us – as a silly name for a facebook group joke. Then the group just kind of grew (even after Pete and Karen warned everyone to stay away). All documented truth (Beth). Put as much lipstick on that pig as you like but the truth of the matter is Griffiths sold out to Atack, Karen and Ortega years ago. Those who left did so because they no-longer considered themselves Pete’s property to be bartered and traded for personal fame and money.

  245. Question for Mark Rathbun –

    Have your views about Gerry Armstrong changed at all since 2009?

    Do you still view his actions the same way as you did back then?


  246. Thank you Marildi. I read the Grasshopper’s comment and overall it is consistent with my view — some good, some bad, etc. I have periodically called for scientific evaluation of the Scientology processes and would love to see that. I think Scientology attracts a wide range of people, including people of high intelligence who who feel, as I do, that “scientism” (a premise that only the physical universe will yield answers) is valid only as far as it goes, and there may be other principled ways of knowing that can be validated.

    At the same time, I’m reasonably sure I have asserted that Scientology has some positives on some of those other blogs without being labeled OSA or getting any negative response.

    And ironically, on this blog, I see some of the behaviors that Grasshopper points out. Take Sam Freeman’s response to my question: “Who wants to know?” Maybe all the rest of you know each other beyond your “screen names” but I sure don’t, and I respect the fact that this blog does not require disclosure of personal names. And where posters appear to use real names, who knows if those are their actual names or not. So Sam’s question comes across to me as rather cynical — implying that no one should ask such a question as I asked unless they give their credentials.

    I’d also like to say that though I frequently read this blog, Mike’s, and Tony’s, I sure don’t consider myself a “member” or “follower” in any way, nor do I have any sort of allegiance. I read them all (and many other blogs on various other subjects) and have found them very helpful in my own growth (and yes, recovery) post-Scientology.

    Marilidi, thank you for the link and giving a meaningful response to my question. I appreciate that.

  247. As a never-in but as someone who had close friends who lost the most productive periods of their lives to Scientology before bolting, it seems to me that Tony provides a service in the form of real information – today’s financial analysis of Narconon activities in the Netherlands, for example — that I want to read. Where else will I find it? I used to love to read Marty’s site, but now it’s being positioned as “either-or” when I want to read both. I think that Tony has done a lot of good and that the baby is being thrown out with the bathwater in this case.

  248. jawn.

    big hello from LRHs Bulgravia.

  249. i did left that group, bcs all of you are just looking for fame.actually ,One of you moderators did a little commercial brake on this post ,or post before… so silly….
    and Iam no fan of those other people …. trust me…..
    and when this new group breaks, you will make another one – and talk bad about old one….
    just nature of people with no real life , just “interwebs groups”
    Big hello from LRHs Bulgravia.

  250. Odin is a cool god. I used to be a warrior, but sitting around in the Hall of Vahalla was a pain in the ass – too many grumpy old warriors.
    I’ll try being a shaman since I like to predict the future, a would be futurist, if you will. I’ll politely not intrude in your space, Oracle. 🙂

  251. Mark C. Rathbun

    What on earth does that have to do with the post at hand?

  252. The Oracle

    Have no idea who the, “few”, “many” “anyone” “Someone” “you” or “all” , are, that you mention.

    It doesn’t take Perry Mason, to look at Tony’s blog and understand my comment.

  253. FOTF2012, thank you in return, for the meaningful response.

    You wrote: “I think Scientology attracts a wide range of people, including people of high intelligence who feel, as I do, that ‘scientism’ (a premise that only the physical universe will yield answers) is valid only as far as it goes, and there may be other principled ways of knowing that can be validated.”

    Well said. Actually, it seems to me that, generally speaking, those who have this viewpoint are mainly among the “pros” and are rare among the “antis.” And if that’s true, I think it’s telling.

    Btw, have you ever expressed this viewpoint on Mike’s blog? Or have you self-censored any such point of view, perhaps subconsciously since scientism has essentially been expressed by some of the regulars there. With regard to Hubbard’s discoveries and the tech, heaven forbid if someone should express the view that “there may be other principled ways of knowing that can be validated.”

    You also wrote: “… I’m reasonably sure I have asserted that Scientology has some positives on some of those other blogs without being labeled OSA or getting any negative response.”

    Okay, but have you ever said anything positive without including some negative along with it, especially enough negative to outweigh any positive? Or perhaps you’ve said enough negative overall, and said it strongly enough, to get away with saying something positive without getting a harsh reply. You’ll notice there are very few posters, if any, still posting there who have generally positive views of the tech.

    However, Mike’s blog is mainly

    “And ironically, on this blog, I see some of the behaviors that Grasshopper points out.”

    True, but I think it’s a matter of degree.

    “I’d also like to say that though I frequently read this blog, Mike’s, and Tony’s, I sure don’t consider myself a ‘member’ or ‘follower’ in any way, nor do I have any sort of allegiance.”

    Got it. You are probably one of the few exceptions, however.

    And btw, I haven’t seen any of the exceptions ever piping up to agree with a poster who has made a positive comment about Scientology, and they’re notably quiet when that poster is getting pounced on. In other words, any such discussion or debate just isn’t done.

    In any case, Mike’s blog is primarily about criticizing the CoS, and there is merit to this. But sometimes I think the comments are very similar to the output of the CoS itself, in that they are exaggerations and fabrications – i.e. it’s cultish. But woe betide the poster who would every suggest such a thing.

    “I read them all (and many other blogs on various other subjects) and have found them very helpful in my own growth (and yes, recovery) post-Scientology.”

    Okay, since this does happen to be a blog where discussion can take place, can you be a little more specific about your “recovery”? Because from my experience on staff and in the SO and as a public, the majority of former Scientologists didn’t have the horrific experience that some did, such as the execs at Int. Yet it seems common on the anti blogs to refer to one’s own “recovery.” It’s true that virtually everyone does have to break free of the cult mindset, if that’s what you mean, but the word “recovery” implies a worse connotation (as if they had all been in a concentration camp or had an RPF experience under extremists). You might disagree.

  254. The Oracle

    I do give you credit for covering nearly every generality in the book in five short sentences.

  255. The Oracle

    Chee, Park the subpoena. Right behind your law degree. You are onto the purpose of a prosecutor.

  256. The Oracle

    The tax payer’s dime isn’t used as currency here.

  257. The Oracle

    If it is your bag to dig for intel, apply for a job at the C.I.A.. You ain’t Perry Mason.

  258. George Layton

    Perhaps trying to see it as, your view is your own and their view is their own rather than your view is the correct view and their view is the incorrect view.

  259. Tony Ortega’s blog is basically a tabloid that only focuses on one subject. There is rarely anything of substance said there. I was honestly a bit put off by how rabidly he clamped down on the lawsuit thing. It’s one thing to report it, but, as Marty has said before, it doesn’t warrant the insane speculation that followed.

    I’m an atheist. I was raised in Christianity, as the son of a pastor. I saw the guts of it, and it turned me off of religion forever. Scientology is not a religion, it is a money making scheme that uses hypnosis and re-purposed psychology to trick people into blaming themselves. But so is Christianity. That’s another conversation.

    I think the irony of this is the weight that Tony Ortega gives Scientology actually fortifies it. Should the abuses inside Scientology be ignored? Certainly not, but they also shouldn’t be scrutinized day to day, that just gives any remaining doubters that are still in purpose. The Bunker is probably helping more than hurting.

    It gives them legitimacy when they say: “That website and it’s followers will do anything to stop us! We must help the cause now more than ever!”

    $Cha-Ching$ and Mr. Miscavage gets to buy another Motorcylce or something.

  260. Mark C. Rathbun

    Your conclusions couldn’t be more wrong. He perpetuates the ‘problems’ he obsesses with.

  261. The Oracle

    Just because you have nothing better to do than “wait”, doesn’t mean people are obligated to float on your time clock. Which apparently stopped.

  262. The problems he obsesses with are – Scientology existing – So, maybe I couldn’t be more right. Either way, I wish you the best Marty. I’m no fan of the Bunker, and I’m also not a fan of government sanctioned cults.

  263. “Your conclusions couldn’t be more wrong. He perpetuates the ‘problems’ he obsesses with.”

    The last time Tony Ortega mentioned Mark Rathbun’s (or Monica’s) name was ______________, fill in the blank.

    It seems that you (Mark) also perpetuate the ‘problems’ he (Tony) obsesses with.

    Can’t we all just get along? Lol.

  264. The Oracle


    When people began to explore Dianetics, and later possibly, Scientology. They were convinced of many “truths”.

    You can make crazy people sane.
    You can make dense people reasonable.
    You could make stupid people intelligent.
    You could make sadists care.
    You could make the blind see.
    You could make the unconscious, conscious.
    You could make criminals, honest.
    You could make sponges, contribute.
    You could make ugly, pretty.
    You could make the sick, well.

    And on, and on, and on.

    You do not have to be anything but a citizen, to know that self improvement is possible. In varying degrees.

    But the truth is, what you got sold, was “hope”. Hope can carry a lot of people. With out hope, you are parked. Where ever you are, whoever you are, and whatever you do. Where ever you live, however you live.

    Now, people got “hopeful”. And this turned out to be a huge lament. I hear things like, “I can’t believe I wasted ten years of my life believing I could help my fellow man”. I can’t believe I wasted four years thinking I was going to help myself. “I could have been selling insurance instead of caring and hoping, this just fucked me up.”

    And they are right.

    Because what Hubbard didn’t tell people, is that people are they way they are, and who they are for good reason. Hubbard did not point people’s attention, to the “rightness” in these “unwanted conditions”, or point out the “natural justice”.

    If fact, he more or less implied, people were unjustly harmed and handicapped.

    But over time, you watch what people who did get some skills, do with them. How they used them.

    And if you take one minute, just one minute, to have “faith”, in natural justice.

    You just mind find that perhaps people with lack of vision are that way, for the benefit of others. People without much intelligence, are that way for the security of other people. People who are oblivious, have been blind sided not by injustice, but by natural justice which benefits the rest.

    In other words, someone already “saved the world, and every man, woman and child in it”.

    The people parked in “not know”, are there because given knowledge, they use it to do damage. They are actually, a blessing. Not a curse!

    The people that lack intelligence, are innately imprisoned with ignorance. For YOUR benefit.

    That if you work to open someone’s eyes, they will use the vision to pull the rug out from under you. Which is why they lost their insight to begin with.

    This is about CHARACTER, not physical or genetics. Because there a many handicapped people that are intelligent and good willed.

    It may have very well been a wrong action, to give people hope, that certain things could be fixed, for good reason. There may not be good reason. And there could be even, bad reason.

    You can feel empathy for and want to “help” an animal caught in a claw trap. And you can go let that coyote free, to come out the next morning and find half your sheep dead.

    So, if you just take one minute, just one minute, to TRUST, that all is “RIGHT”, and go take a walk outside and look around, you might find you have been in the “perfect” world all this time. And you are as you should be, and always have been, for who you are. That that “outpoints” and”plus points” are born from attitudes. But there is a balance here in this solar system with all of these particles, and the balance is here because everything carries the perfect weight for who and what they are already.

    And, just try to get over that false hope, or the time you spent floating on it.
    For your benefit, or anyone else’s.

  265. George wrote:

    Perhaps trying to see it as, your view is your own and their view is their own rather than your view is the correct view and their view is the incorrect view.”

    Where’s the fun in that? 🙂

    No really. I raise these questions because I think they are important to consider, and because Beth is certainly smart enough to process. Asking Beth these questions is designed to break up the groupthink that any group of people fall into.

    I truly believe it’s important to examine things – especially when groups turn towards cruelty, as Tony’s group was headed toward over the last few months.

    Exposing Scientology was never supposed to be about being cruel, especially to people like Cathy Tweed, Carmen Llywelyn, and Monique Rathbun.

    When stuff like that starts happening, it is vital to start loudly asking some uncomfortable questions.

    I think.

    But I’m still very interested in what Beth thinks about what I asked her.


  266. The Oracle


    The meaning of life, is to move stuff around. There are a certain amount of particles here. All we can do is change their shape and move them around them and recycle them into other particles.

    There, you have the meaning of life.

    People wake up, they move their eyelids up. They use their legs to stand up. The arms to open the fridge. The mouth to have breakfast, the car to get to work. You just move things around.

    When people get lazy, and have been afflicted with lack of energy or hope or ambition, they do not move things around except that which weighs the least. Thoughts and words. Ideas.

    They move thoughts around in their head, and put those out to move thoughts around in other people’s head. Instead of driving a car to work, they drive their attitudes around. Since this all they really can move around, this is all they really can exchange.

    They do get upset when they see others moving things around. Especially if those people can move things faster them them.

    Right now, some people seem disturbed that Marty moved things to a new home. And suspect he did the most criminal thing, moved some money around!

    I am giving you this free bee, for those that searched for the meaning of life and feel short changed because some have you hope.

    This is a gift.

    The meaning of life is to move stuff around. Not to stop stuff from being moved around. Like knowledge, information, help and hope.

    You can only start and stop, things from being moved around.

    If you are hell bent on stopping things from being moved around, your energy is repurposed to other nutirients and you will eventually become a sold matter, that others can move around.

    And that is all you need to know.

  267. Marildi wrote:

    “Because from my experience on staff and in the SO and as a public, the majority of former Scientologists didn’t have the horrific experience that some did, such as the execs at Int. Yet it seems common on the anti blogs to refer to one’s own “recovery.” It’s true that virtually everyone does have to break free of the cult mindset, if that’s what you mean, but the word “recovery” implies a worse connotation (as if they had all been in a concentration camp or had an RPF experience under extremists). “

    This is an important perspective that often gets ignored from anti-Scientologists Who Are On a Crusade.

    For most people, this enforced “recovery from Scientology” can be as made-up as the reactive mind and BT case that LRH tried to saddle you with.

    Not everyone had negative experiences in Scientology. And just because many others did does not mean that your own experiences do not matter.

    You must be allowed to assess your own experiences as they exist for you.

    In fact, of you are going to “recover” from anything, you must first check if you yourself have an injury to recover from!

    Great point, Marildi!


  268. morelivesthanacat

    Glad you said that. Frankly I usually just skim down to see your replies and what was said that you replied to because I like your brevity and wit–and I figure most of the rest is drivel. (well I do read some). But jeez, takes forever to scroll down past some of these.

  269. morelivesthanacat

    Tony’s on a mission from God. And like all religious people, he only sees and reports on what he wants to see and throws the baby out with the bath water along with everyone else like him. I mean this metaphorically of course. P.S. That disqualifies him as a journalist.

  270. The Oracle


    Chair ridden is a step away from bed ridden. When one is forced to stay in chair and star at a monitor because of the weight of attitudes. Many born of concern, that someone else, moved something around. Maybe someone moved their wife, furniture and child. Even the furniture and the family dog. Maybe someone moved money from their wallet to the grocery store. Maybe someone moved out of the White House, maybe someone Moved in. Maybe some on moved an airplane into a building, or a new court document into the court. And one thing that really send people into shock, is if someone moves a problem off their plate. For the chair ridden, people moving things around can be a threat, if it is not just your fingers you moving around on a key board. Something might get moved too fast, and one could become vulnerable with a flying particle, What is an engram? Someone moved something too fast, or now fast enough, or, someone moved something fast than you can could duplicate.

    Often, these fears and concerns actually cause people to become chair ridden. It is good for them to use their fingers as much as possible to keep a heart beat going. Moving anything around is better than moving nothing around.

    Try each day to move a little more around, to escape this malady. And overcome your terror of others moving stuff around.

  271. The Oracle

    He is the Town Crier that sends out the alarm when he suspects or gets knowledge of anything having been moved around. He does manage to move to his scanner on good days very slowly, to send out any potentially alarming news. He and his tribe became brazen recently and they all moved their bodies to a location on the East coast, moved around one another, and retreated home. It was an exhilarating experience from what I have read.

  272. The Oracle

    Monique moving a problem off her plate was his 9/11 moment.

  273. The Oracle

    Today the four alarm fire is how money got moved around in Holland.

  274. Mark C. Rathbun

    Sounds as if you haven’t read the post you are commenting upon. I am correcting the record for intentional harm visited upon my wife. Believe me, I am engaged in an activity that will go a long way toward freeing captive minds.

  275. The Oracle

    I wish Tony would interview Ray Jeffries and ask him how much money he took home on the Debbie Case Marty referred to him. That was a huge oversight on Tony’s part, money moved. Lots of it. And he still hasn’t used his investigative skills to bring us the scoop. I dunno, Ray moving money from the Church of Scientology into his bank accounts, doesn’t seem to alarm Tony.

  276. Marty(not neccercerilly directed at you) Why can a black wonderfull famaly guy get kliled an the fucking hypocrytical NRA stay silent as a

    dead piece of road kill.

  277. Oh God, rally you can’t, I am my own example

  278. The Oracle

    Sorry for the many typos and spelling errors. Doubt it matters, don’t read it.

    I am just moving a lot of stuff around lately and multi tasking recklessly.

  279. The Oracle

    The Board of Education is a cult. I couldn’t agree with you more. I do agree with government sanction of the Marines though. Those men can move a lot of stuff around.

  280. The Oracle

    Speed of particle flow determines terror.

  281. The Oracle

    That’s good, go back to sleep honey. Sleep is good. Nothing worth noticing.

  282. The Oracle


  283. 292 comments, so far.
    Almost half of them by The Oracle. (129)
    About 3/4 of the total content since they are often a mile long.
    Draw your own conclusions.

  284. Thanks for the respectfulness, Alanzo. But I’m sure my answer won’t be very satisfying.

    When I was an admin on SPs, I was accused of censorship and so were the other admins, just as admins and moderators always are if they actively moderate. Nobody wants to be guilty of censorship. But unless you like having a chaotic free-for-all, you’re going to have times you delete a post or give a warning. On SPs we started trying to crack down on things like personal attacks and name-fagging. You might call it censorship but to me it was encouraging civility and discouraging nastiness–aka moderating.

    I can’t speak to what Pete and Perry said or did regarding your views on Tony Ortega because I don’t know anything about that. But I will say I don’t see the SPs community as a clique any more than other groups or forums or blog comment sections. Sure, people gravitate to places where they feel comfortable, so different groups have different personalities a.nd even biases. But SPs is made up of people with a wide range of views, even people who’ve been moved to block each other. So if it’s a clique it’s a pretty ineffective one. 🙂

  285. The Oracle

    Stay tuned for my new book series:

    How to Wean Your Family and Friends Off Of Hope Over Summer Vacation.

    How To Spot and Stop Intelligent People In Their Tracks!

    Beware of the Hope Next Door.

    Help in Suits.

    How to Legally Threaten Harm Attack and Suppress Other People’s Children and Get Away With It.

    Overcoming The Stress of People Moving Things Around.

    The Art of Imparting False Information, and How it Helps Bury the Gullible And Keeps Them Parked in the Gutter and out of Fine Dining Establishments!

    The Art of Gaslighting. How to spot Potential Victims and Make The Most of Your Efforts!

    How To Have Laughs With Deliberate Cruelty!

    Profiting from Sadism! Turn Your Sadism Into Profits!

    How to Rehab People’s Losses, and get Them to Pay You For IT!

    The Art of Discouraging People Through Tales of Failure.

    Silencing Hope, It Takes a Village.

    How to Cause Your Peers to Lose Affinity daily for a Fellow Human, Until They Hate the Human Race!

    Successful Methods for Making Nothing Out of Others!

    How to Disorientate People by Pulling the Strings from the Back of the Closet!

    Telling People What to Think and Keeping Them From Thinking for Themselves!

    The Art of Setting People up for Losses!

    Setting People up as Targets! Five Easy Methods!

  286. The Oracle

    The Joy of Music, with Cat Daddy. Banned. But I have will have black market copies available.

  287. The Blockbuster I saved for Last:

    How to Heal Through Demeaning Others!

  288. singanddanceall

    those are brilliant headlines and perfectly describe dianetics and scientology.

    And in the end, no clears or OT’s. No soul astronauts. Even Hubbard admitted it, he failed.

  289. Omitted data:

    Between Feb 13 and May 12 of this year, During the Fair gaming of Monique threads, there were 13,286 Comments.

    I was not permitted to enter a view, I am banned because Tony has no tolerance for critics.

    Out of those 13,286 comments, I added mine 129 over here.

    That is my conclusion.

  290. Or, if you would prefer to view it another way, 13,286 comments about this on Tony Ortega’s blog. None of them by Oracle.

  291. Don’t spread it around. It is better when the books are kept under the table, and people really can not do the proper math.

  292. Oh, Tommy, to be fair. Out of those 13,286 comments, how many were yours?

  293. To be fair, not all of my comments here are about Monique’s Fair Gaming on Tony’s Blog.

    I really haven’t counted all the comments on the Threads on ESMB, over the past years, fair gaming me, Marty and Monique and as covertly as possible, their child.

    Because some folk there are critic intolerant as well!

    So, you can count about half of comments here, against the years of Fair Gaming, and the comments I did not add there.

    You do the math.

  294. To be very fair, hats off for this creative trick! Figuring out a way to fair game someone giving them ZERO platform to address the insults accusations and curses, over YEARS or MONTHS.

    And then when they do find a platform, knocking them in the dirt for managing a response.

  295. One lady at ESMB suggested I was on meth! Spending five days or so returning a response to several years of slander! Wasn’t she just a sweet little Southern Belle? Always says the right thing at the right time. Such a Sugar Mouth.

  296. Why Tom, I couldn’t help but notice that you are in fact in a Scientology Circle. I didn’t mean to tread on your toes honey. Are you do volunteer work for O.S.A. if I may so inquire? Or are you just a concerned citizen?

  297. P.S. This is what I mean when I say it just isn’t safe for a little girl out on these mean streets anymore. You don’t know where it’s coming from. The gang stalking is on in this summer heat. Any moment someone jumps uo stab you from behind and it is either someone from the school of Bunkerology, ESMB Central Intelligence Agency, Office of Special Affairs I mean, you just can’t tell anymore!

  298. P.S. Honestly, Tommy, The way people are coming at me, I suspect someone has planted a rumor that I am one of the Duggan children. Did someone tell you that?

  299. How could you possibly ask that question and still let the Oracle post on your blog? Is your blog not supposed to be informative any more? I’m just so lost

  300. The good news is, stats at ESMB are up! It seems all the rage, Marty Marty Marty and the things being said on Marty’s blog. I guess the conversation over here can be stimulating and provocative. If it is being imported there there for discussion.

  301. George Layton

    It is important to remember that with those years of wasted or not wasted time came a sense of self importance. The lessons learned in those years are a part of your evolution as any experience in your life is. To let the self importance aspect of all that was gained from your life experiences over influence your interpretation of peoples words and actions can be a detriment to your moving on up a little higher.

  302. Thanks, Alanzo,

    You wrote: “You must be allowed to assess your own experiences as they exist for you.”

    Yes, and that principle applies to many other “facts” that get passed around and repeated over and over by the “antis” on various blogs. I would even say it acts like a form of brainwashing.

    For example, the idea has been put out that any gains one had in Scientology were temporary at best – and with a lot of repetition of that, people became convinced of it. They no longer acknowledge that some of the stimulus-response reactions in life they once had are gone. Or that they learned some principles of communication that continue to help them interact better with others. Or they study better – and so forth.

    Actually, Al my friend, what you said about the reactive mind being “made up” is, IMO, another one of the points of indoctrination that antis engage in – and people repeat it without, as you stated, assessing their own experiences.

    To begin with, the principle of a reactive mind isn’t even an uncommon concept in psychology or in spiritual teachings. As an example, the highly respected teacher Eckhart Tolle has a construct he calls the “pain-body” – which is essentially the same mechanism as the reactive mind.

    I could give quite a few other examples, but I’ll just say that many of the antis are, in essence, running the same type of operation they are protesting with regard to the CoS. I think Marty was right to quote the old saying that “the more things change, the more they stay the same.”

  303. Oracle: “So, if you just take one minute, just one minute, to TRUST, that all is ‘RIGHT’, and go take a walk outside and look around, you might find you have been in the ‘perfect’ world all this time. And you are as you should be, and always have been, for who you are. That ‘outpoints’ and ‘plus points’ are born from attitudes. But there is a balance here in this solar system with all of these particles, and the balance is here because everything carries the perfect weight for who and what they are already.”

    You’ve expressed very eloquently what I understand to be the ancient teaching of nonduality. And according to what I’ve read, many people who have had an Awakening express the realization that everything is perfect just as it is.

  304. Apologies. It was a cynical question. Personal 🙂 Mike’s a good friend and I don’t want him dragged into all this unless there’s a good reason. If there is, ask away by all means – just don’t understand what Mike Rinder has to do with the original post so to be honest I was a bit confused as to where the question was going.

  305. Dale Arthur

    “I am engaged in an activity that will go a long way toward freeing captive minds.”

    Is Scientology making you do the coursework all over again?

  306. Mark C. Rathbun

    What on earth does that have to do with the post at hand?

  307. I have. Drawn my own conclusions that is.

  308. Tommy – I’m a low tech person. I don’t need or want a smart phone. There is a round thingy on my mouse which allows me to scroll down fast.

    On a much earlier topic, I didn’t realize that Mark had posted a new topic and everyone had moved on. I just thought that others had lost interest in the topic, which I had not, and I posted another 20 or so comments. It’s now my personal diary for that time period!

  309. Mark C. Rathbun


  310. No, but I guess I’d be paranoid too, if everybody was out to get me.

  311. No worries, Sam. Thanks for clarifying.

  312. The Oracle

    I’m paranoid? Did I strike you as paranoid? I’m not running with some gang, parked up on some Internet Blog surrounded by some crew, hiding in some tribe called O.S.A., Scientology, ESMB, Underground Bunker, or wedged in any other group working covertly to undermine others while they can not reach to me. Slithering around like a snake in the grass. That, is paranoid. Attacking people behind their back because they are too afraid to face them head on, or even directly. That, is paranoid.

    Do you see anyone parked on my front porch, or Marty’s front lawn? No. Because they are paranoid.

    No, because they are paranoid.

    The constant demeaning of others is because they are paranoid. People who are devoted to making out of others are paranoid. If they were not, they would not be devoted to weakening others.

    No, I am not paranoid. I am facing people and responding. My enemies are my enemies when they can see me. I don’t carry on about my enemies when they are not looking. I make sure they are looking and they can see me. That is not “paranoid”.

    No, everyone is NOT “out to get me”. (Sly wrong little indication there there, but not my item) In fact, no one is “out to get me”. People test me, then submerge behind some kind of foliage.

    The truth is, there are entities out here that are totally Godless. They are parked solidly in purposes to harm attack and suppress. Attack, attack, attack. This is what they do. They have become so revolting and repelling to the Gods, none God dare channel knowledge, brightness or hope through them. No beauty travels through their mouths. No hope. No promise.

    If it wasn’t me they were testing, it would be anyone else. It isn’t even personal. These persons do not know me. They don’t even know who they are. They are wholly bereft of symbiotic value.

    I just got hungry and popped in a for a snack.

  313. The Oracle

    I see you read my book, “How to rehab people’s losses”. Well done!

  314. The Oracle

    Digging for weeds in Marty’s Garden? Never mind. I do like you George, you have your cards on the table and you face people straight on. I can overlook the issue that you are being pimped by Tony Ortega.

  315. Thanks, Marildi! I’ll give your communication some reflection. In my case and that of others I’ve known, yes, recovery is an appropriate word. Recovery from things like a cult mindset, long hours on staff resulting in chronic sleep deprivation, financial ruin, alienation from friends and family, inability to discuss anything critical of Scientology, incorrect or faulty science from Hubbard, harsh ethics conditions, church approval of what I considered unethical actions, staff kept in poverty while execs lived lavishly, indoctrination that this was the only chance for humanity / thetans to make it out of the trap of the MEST universe, church control of personal life including 2D, and a number of other things.

    On the positive side, I certainly experienced realizations, could “float my needle” pretty much at will, as an auditor saw PCs have realizations and gain, and more. Some of the tools and concepts I found and still find useful and that I wish would be explored through principled, objective research would include:
    1. ARC triangle and breaks and their resolution
    2. Comm cycle
    3. Obnosis
    4. Concept of anaten
    5. Study tech — pros/cons
    6. Chains of like experiences (Freud pursued these too)
    7. E-meter (I believe Jung experimented with a similar device)
    8. Organizing the universe into dynamics of survival
    9. Touch assists (and relation to esp. Chinese traditional medicine)
    10. Training routines, impacts, pros/cons, etc.
    11. Auditing processes and end phenomena
    12. Exteriorization (how same or different from lab-induced dissociation)

    And so on.

    BTW, I did serve on staff and attested to clear. Again, I’ll give your thoughts some reflection. Thank you again.

  316. now Iam jealous at those people….

    Bih hello from LRHs Bulgravia.

  317. George Layton

    Oh sheesh, now you set her off.

  318. George Layton

    I swear, if Marty wouldn’t delete all of the J&D, this would be a much funner blog.

  319. The Oracle

  320. The Oracle

    The smell of the road kill spread got to me.

  321. The Oracle

    Stop pretending you are curious about something. You haven’t been curious in decades.

  322. The Oracle


  323. The Oracle

    Are you do volunteer work for O.S.A. if I may so inquire? Or are you just a concerned citizen?

  324. What is LRH’s Bulgravia? You must be one of those lonely housewives who likes to say weird things on Scientology blogs.’re creepy and cool :p

  325. I rarely post on these blogs. First and foremost, I would like to send a specific message to “Koki” since Koki specifically mentioned my name above. I am not sure why Koki felt the need to state whom he/she dislikes? Except to feel some sort of self importance in cyber land. Probably because Koki has no self worth in the real world. Koki, do me a favor. Go do a 12 inch line of some pure coke-y and report back to us. That is, you are not in a coma at that point.

    With that being said, this is about cyber-cults. A prevalent phenomenon within this anti-Scientology world. If you see the above comments of many, we can see cyber cults in action. People acting like territorial tribal members. It’s quite animalistic and represents a herd mentality. No different that The Crips vs. Bloods.

    Lots of comments about why Tony’s blog is so awesome. Why SP’S R Us is the best thing to happen since Christ’s birth. People rushing to defend Marty against Tony like you all are some cyber soldiers. I think that is the basis of what Marty is saying.

    Some of you have a lot of anger & aggression. You ‘hate’ so many people it’s insane. My suggestion, go take some MMA classes and beat a punching bag. Or go squeeze the ever loving shit out of a stress ball. Stop stressing about Marty, Tony, Me, Sam Freeman, or people you will never meet in a million years.

    Cyber cults are alive & well. Many of you are doing an exemplary job of proving just that. I wish you all good luck. And Marty thank you for speaking the truth. You’re a controversial guy. Some people love ya. Some people hate ya. The only people who have a right to complain about you are people who have dealt with you directly. Someone asked me last week if Marty has ever apologized to me? Why the hell would he apologize to me? I’ve never met the guy. My parents spent 30 years in Scientology. I was born/raised in it. Marty doesn’t have a damn thing to do with that. But LRH certainly does. It would be nice to get an apology from LRH. But the bastard is dead. Some of you need to quit victimizing yourselves & making non-existent problems for yourselves. Peace & 1 Love! 🙂

  326. The Oracle

    ESMB is a womb. It is a polluted womb. And the folks parked up inside that womb are suffocating one another with their own postmortem gases. The wounds they suffer are from postmortem gas pains. Every comment exudes some new smelly postmortem gas. Every post is a maggot that nibbles at the decaying body while it slowly releases gas and deflates. The associated bloating, skin slipping, in reality, many deaths occur inside these “ideal” settings, and additional confounding variables may be present ( layered clothing, obesity, fever).

    Postmortem changes may partially obscure antemortem trauma and disease or mimic their presence. It is essential that the pathologist recognize these findings for what they are. Despite the degradation the body undergoes during the postmortem period, a complete autopsy of a decomposing body often yields abundant information.

  327. Richard here is something from JP’s first album. A very much underrated album in my opinion. 42 years old now. Wow!! I feel old.

  328. The Oracle

    The current owners, managers and admins of that blog are so ashamed of it, they will not stand forward to reveal themselves and claim their work. They will not sign their name on it or claim ownership.

  329. The Oracle

    Then they sit over there and convince one another, that it is really Marty that is paranoid.

  330. Great post Marisa. Especially the last paragraph. And Koki? Well, he’s quite special. Lol…

  331. Oh yes….Marty by all means let the J&D come through!!

  332. The Oracle

    Thank you Katrina. Heard and understood. Nice touch with the typos. That must have been very humiliating.

  333. The Oracle

    Can you take me to your leader?

  334. Oracle – Damn, ya got me. Yep, I’m OSA. Cover blown.I guess I can quit sneaking around.
    Actually, It was just a play on words of the old hippy joke, Where Freddy Freeloader, (the hippy) says, “You’d be paranoid too, if everybody was out to get you”
    Flunk! You didn’t get my joke. hahahaha

  335. The Oracle

    Oh, sorry. I just recalled. Your leader never stands on the front lines where the bullets are flying. That’s what you are for.

    Your leader is always camped in a tent miles and miles from the battlefield at all times. Complaining about how he takes all the risks, and yelling, “SHOW ME THE MONEY”.

    I think the man with all of the body guards and gates, who is lawyer ed up to his shadow, is the one who is paranoid and thinks everyone is out to get him.

    But, I do now understand his mission. Hubbard opened Pandora’s box, and someone needs to get the lid on back on it.

    These people were cleared of unwanted conditions. Their reactive mind. Trained in the humanities. Licensed in the practice of psychometry to release others. Groomed, trained, and parked in an all Scientology City.
    And this is what was discovered at the core and rolled out of the front gates, released into society as mental health experts that were totally enlightened:

  336. The Oracle

    I mean seriously, get the lid back on it!!!!!!!!! I trust they have been returned to the cage with the others?

  337. The Oracle

    Go tell your leader I GET IT! I have ZERO reasons to stand in his way. I appreciate the damage control he is running in this situation. I understand his burden. He needed waste valuable resources, discouraging me. I am on his side! I understand the magnitude of this flap. The course packs and check sheets are parked in the dumpster. All clear in this section.

  338. Thanks for the answer, FOTF2012. I got it on what you experienced. Great comment otherwise, too.

    You’re pretty cool – for one of “them” (kidding – mostly 😀 ).

  339. I’m not sure where I fit into all of this but I know I have my attention on it from time to time. I have always wished marty well in his current life. even though there are times when I do not fully understand. I know that there is missing info and it is not my plight. I still have attention on people,I served with in the sea org,doing well and prospering. I have also tried to have that conversation with Marty about being in the sea org etc. looking back now it was at the wrong time in his life. I wanted to make a connection so that I could attach some meaning to my time in the sea org. Thinking I could link up with like minded people that I share a profound experience with. anywho. I did a little story with tony and the one thing I took away from it was. no matter how much you study something and obsess over it. one can’t really understand something unless they have lived it. tony’s only connection to scientology is and always will be from that of an outsider and a reporter. just my opinion.

  340. The Oracle

    I do wonder about Hubbard’s “Aha” moment though. The one where he had to pull out the, “Man is basically good” premise. That had to have bought down three walls to the first basic structure he built. When he wrote Dianetics, he still thought all men were inclined towards symbiosis.

    Oh well, in 30 years it should all be back to normal. Some woman will give birth at the hospital, and someone will hand her a swaddling warm innocent bundle. She will go home and a sudden cloud of darkness shall over fall her. She will be diagnosed with post partum depression, never realizing little bunnyskull has returned, and laying next to her in the bed, as her infant. The village shall make adjustments to keep it moving through time.

  341. The Oracle

    My bad.I am clearly not as cosmopolitan as you. But I did get it that you are in a Scientology circle. Wondering why you were posting here, only to be spanked by the MAA when they find out you toured naughty bad neighborhoods. Speaking to the undesirables. Protesting about the latest publication. But you seem brave, curious, and out to make a brave new world! Applause!!!! Send Mr. Miscavige my deepest regards and sincere appreciation. Just don’t suggest I am at his service. At the end of this, we will need to figure out how to get him back in the box and close the lid.

  342. The Oracle


  343. The gaslighting purpose will flow through time.

  344. Thank you Lone Star for the compliment. Koki needs to OD on some coke-y. I don’t know how else to say it. It is what it is.

    Also, I don’t understand people here who are asking Marty to explain things. People saying “I’m brand new to Scientology watching. Marty please explain what’s going on?” Do you people have a life? Marty’s drama is boring as hell compared to what’s going on in the world. We have 10,000 people a day in Iraq/Syria/Somalia blowing themselves up. We have The NSA invading our privacy on a daily basis in America. We have a full blown racial riot on the brink of eruption. I’m a Mexican chic. I can say this. You folks sitting on your silver spoon, sheltered, spoiled asses need to get your priorities straight.

    If Marty Rathbun is the biggest problem you have in your life currently, and you’ve never been in Scientology, you’re a damn freakazoid. Get a life. You never ins who are obsessed with us are stranger than Jerry Sandusky at a Little League Game.

  345. I had a guy last year, claim he did 75 hours of work when it was clear he had done less than 12. He thought he had hypnotized me.

    Oh, he was doing things, just not what anyone hired him to do or asked him to do. Laughter. He was so damned crazy I let it go and moved him off the property as quick as I could. Once I realized he was actually doing damage, knowing I was going to have to pay someone to fix the 12 hours of labor he did do, and even that, was nothing he was paid to do.

    When I busted him doing really insane things, he would say, “You don’t know anything about what I am doing.” As if by saying that, he could hypnotize me into thinking I was blind. Stupid.

    This was really the worse case scenario I had had with someone wholly insane and destructive. For me, this was when I realized, man is not basically good. Some yes, not all. Some are basically evil. Shouldn’t be allowed near plants and foliage. Let alone trusted with any responsibility.

    Once I realized that “Man is basically good” was false information, everything I had built on top that, blew. All of my disappointments with Scientology and Scientologists blew. It really blew a lot of charge.

    Anyone can hypnotize you when you think they are basically good. You can make all sorts of excuses for the insanity you are looking at. For the evil deeds. You can forgive anything, while they walk all over you and cut your throat. You hold back. You don’t fight back. You blame everything on their “case”.

    Laughter. And people play on that. People in the Scientology arena to get away with all kinds of criminal madness. They play on your empathy.

    Once you get it that a person standing in front of you is NOT basically good. You can create sane distances.

    This is survival.

    When this smug criminal left my place I had someone else escort him off.

    Realizing he was not basically good, at all, I was afraid of what I would to do him.

    If I had not had this fixed idea he was basically good, I would have had him off the property after the first week.

    He still thinks he got away with blanket hypnotism here.

  346. And the thing is, on the Code of Honor, it says, “never fear to hurt anyone with a just cause”, or something like that. But if you have it in your head that, “Man is basically good”. Then there is never a just cause to hurt another person. So, you disable yourself. Your mercy factor goes out the roof until you can tolerate anything and not respond. That does help not to get sucked into other people’s motivator flows. To be able to turn the other cheek. But sometimes it is very wrong. A just cause is when someone in front of you is not basically good at all. Only pretending to be. And banking on the fact that you are hooked in to that lie.

    And then you have the DUTY to mention it, minimum. This is where a person should be deciding their OWN ethics gradients. And you go into the worse neighborhoods in the world, those people have honor. They can and will make their own ethics policies, and take full responsibility for thinking with it. They own it when someone is on top of them, with ill will and bad intentions. And they fix it. They correct it. They reject it and do not take it as “their item”.

    Because if you think all man is basically good, then they can lay wrong items on you, like, “you pulled it in”. And you actually beat yourself up for what Mr. basically good did to you, instead of kicking his fucking ass all the way around the block. You have a WRONG ITEM. A WRONG WHO.

    “Basically good” is NOT their right item. So you shouldn’t be thinking with it. Then it is not YOUR right item either. That they are “basically good”.

    Some people are basically evil.

    They sit in an MAA’s office after the most notorious violations doing an ethics formula, “Find out who you really are” writing, “I am basically a good thetan”. And get a pass.

    And the thing is, all of the animosity in that arena because people would have to figure this stuff out for themselves. And think for themselves. And it is betrayal because they signed on so someone else would do all think for them. They aren’t even looking for the joy, of figuring this stuff out. Still bent out of shape they were left to think for themselves. Like that is some kind of fkn betrayal.


  347. And it’s not even ethical to ask someone to think with ethics are not theirs, because then you take away their responsibility for personal ethics. Hubbard rendered that entire tribe out ethics by enforcing ethics codes on them that could not own. Did not think of themselves. Never had to answer for. And 99% of them could not use any of it.

  348. 99% of those people can not think with the ten commandments. Or one simple rule, treat others as you would wish to be treated yourself. Because I am treating people now like they treat others, and it isn’t going over too well.

  349. ‘MAN IS BASICALLY GOOD.” Is an absolute.

    “Absolutes are unattainable”.

    They both can not be true.

  350. “Clearing the planet” is an absolute.

    “Absolutes are unattainable”.

    If both statements are true, then clearing the planet, is an unattainable goal.

  351. The order is rapidly fadin’.

    If your time to you
    Is worth savin’
    Then you better start swimmin’
    Or you’ll sink like a stone
    For the times they are a-changin’.

  352. Is one true, or are they both false?

    Or, has math always bored you?

  353. True of False? Or, does this sudden prompt for thinking disturb you like Marty’s extended vocabulary?

  354. dismount your donkey at the summit.

  355. Mark C. Rathbun


  356. George Layton

    Why Thank you! That is the kindest disparagement I’ve gotten all week.
    Someone was asking for information about Dennison Academy on ESMB. I thought I’d pass the inquiry on here as some posters here may not have seen it.

  357. They are both opinions, not facts. They are neither true nor false.

  358. Laughter! Laughter! 2FF!

  359. So true.

  360. Tony Ortega, as a “never in”, now promotes himself as a “Scientology Expert”.

  361. Awesome quote. Here’s an elaboration of it, stated to be from “365 Tao,” a book of daily meditations, by Deng Ming-Dao:

    “We all travel the path of Tao. The donkeys are the various doctrines that each of us embraces. What does it matter which doctrine we embrace as long as it leads us to the summit? Your donkey might be a Zen donkey, mine might be a Tao donkey. There are Christian, Islamic, Jewish, and even Agnostic donkeys. All lead to the same place. Why poke fun at others over the name of their donkey? Aren’t you riding one yourself?

    “We should put aside both the donkeys and our interim experiences once we arrive at the summit. Whether we climbed in suffering or joy is immaterial; we are there. All religions have different names for the ways of getting to the holy summit. Once we reach the summit, we no longer need names, and we can experience all things directly.”

  362. By the way Alanzo, “Unhinged” is Tony Ortega’s thought stopping cliche.

  363. His favorite thought stopping cliche is “You seem unhinged”.

  364. Thank you for your opinion.

  365. FOTF2012: “I’ll give your communication some reflection.”

    I give you credit for that attitude. Another thing you might want to reflect on is the Taoism quote I just posted here:

    I actually wanted to make that point in my reply to you but didn’t know how to express it. Basically, I think that many, if not most, of those of us who were fairly dedicated and involved in Scientology did “arrive” – not at the “summit” (except for a relatively very few) but at least at some higher plateau.

    Incidentally, the Wikipedia article on Viktor Frankl states that in his book, he “chronicles his experiences as a concentration camp inmate, which led him to discover the importance of finding meaning in all forms of existence, even the most brutal ones, and thus, a reason to continue living.”

    That is heartening! It also brings to mind what certain ancient teachings and enlightened sages state – i.e. that everything is perfect just as it is. I understand this idea much better now, in light of the Tao quote.

    Cheers. 🙂

  366. I couldn’t agree more about some people needing to get their priorities straight. As bad as the cult of Scientology is, it is nothing compared to the many serious problems we have with our out-of-control government in the US. Of course other nations have problems too. But we in the US have got to pay attention to what’s going on and start demanding some real accountability. (And I don’t mean to infer that Trump is the answer. No way.)

    Yes the never-ins are a bit of a mystery to me. Or a puzzlement. I appreciate the efforts of many never-ins in protesting the cult over the years. Especially Anonymous. But the ones who keep hanging out on these ex-scilon forums and blogs year after year? I don’t get it. I don’t hang out on Ex-Mormon forums. Or Ex-Moonie forums. I know that there are some. Oh well….

    Perhaps it’s due to the Celebrities in Scientology that attracts this kind of “Watcher” community of never-ins. Yep. I bet that’s it. God we humans are so damn shallow. Gossip and Celebrity news is much more important to folks than how our politicians are letting bankers and financiers rob us blind and get us into endless wars. No they want to know if Tom Cruise has a new pimple on his ass. Now THAT’s news. I speak as a fool.

    I met a person last year at the Tony Ortega book tour when he came through Texas. This person is a never-in and he/she actually followed Tony around the country to the book signings. Including at least one signing in Canada! A genuine groupie it seemed to me. Seemed like a very nice person, but I just couldn’t for the life of me understand that kind of devotion. Especially of a never-in.

  367. Hypocritical – There are hundreds or thousands of noble causes to pursue in the world. Which one(s) do you prefer?
    Also, the discussion of cult mind and groupthink might apply to any group, regardless of its stated noble purpose. Being aware of such might allow one to be more beneficial to the group.

  368. I loved the vinyl sound. It’s a pleasant trip back in time. Nowadays the music is overlaid a hundred times in a computer studio, but I guess that’s to be expected. There is still plenty of good music coming out. (“Ghost”!)

    I’ll use this post to drop in two random comments.
    1) Summary: “Some people are evil and disrupt society and groups.”
    It’s the way it’s been and always will be. Only a few tiny tribal groups have been found which live in harmony, and even these are being encroached by advancing overpopulation. Serenity remains a personal matter.

    2) It’s getting to the point of what new dirt about Tony Ortega can be discovered and published? So what’s next? IMO there has been enough discussion about cult mind and groupthink for anyone to make up their own mind if they are in it or not.

  369. Chee Chalker

    Attorneys cannot give non attorneys referral fees. (At least not here in Illinois, but I would be surprised if Texas was different in this regard).
    (That’s not to say some attorneys don’t give people money under the table for such things).

    As far as Ray moving Co$ money into his own accounts….would that be settlement money the Co$ agreed to pay Debbie as part of the settlement? (this is a hypothesis on my part as I have no information that the Co$ paid Debbie anything, but if they did, it would be quite normal for the attorneys to be involved in collecting the check).
    Or, are you alleging nefarious behavior on the part of Ray?

  370. I just watched this Amish show. There’s a few of them on tv. Then it dawned on me. Are there Amish critic groups? Are there ‘Prominent’ Amish critics? How about cyber cults that follow Amish people around and worship ex Amish members? Same thing with Warren Jeff’s cult. Are there critics who follow these Mormon Fundies around and say “Man I’m in the inside circle of Warren Jeffs and his friends. I’m so cool!” No. Not that I know of. Because you are weird if you want to worship Amish or Mormon Polygamists. So why worship ex-Scientologists? I don’t get it.

    I also hate the phrase “As a never in, I just find this fascinating. This is so interesting to watch. Der” Like we are a bunch of exotic insects for viewing pleasure. Most of you mofos who say you are activists, are simply bored lonely souls who need to go play Bingo.

    I don’t understand the fascination with Scientology gossip. I really don’t. I have chics message me on my FB all the time who are never ins. It goes like this “Hey girl, what’s up with Marty & Tony? Why are they fighting? I just love keeping up on behind the scenes stuff. It’s like totally awesome.”

    I’m about to start telling these freakazoids to go get laid, go get a hobby, and leave me alone. I am glad Scientology is getting the negative exposure it deserves. But with that is becoming a new cult. A new cult of Kardashian type worship. But instead of The Kardashians, we are the Ex Scientologists. Very strange this whole situation is. (Hey I sounded like Yoda in that last sentence). Anyways, you never ins getting a kick out of this- go swimming or something. It’s hot outside. Don’t worry about Marty or Tony. Peace 🙂

  371. One final thought. I give ultimate respect to The Anonymous Members who are truly about the fight. I’ve met many of them. There is a huge difference between a genuine Anonymous activist vs. 90% of the people you see on WWP gossiping about Scientology. Go to WWP sometime. You wanna talk about cyber cults? That’s the prime example. WWP is full of video gamers who stay up 24/7 in their parents basement. Then they think WWP is ‘secret’ when everyone can publicly see what they’re gossiping about. Lmfao! Do you think people like Edward Snowden & Jullian Assange go on WWP to discuss their infiltration of gov’t computer systems? OF COURSE NOT.

    Go to the WWP section about Scientology if you want a good laugh. The dialogue is usually like this: “Mark Bunker (or fill in another critic name) is stupid” “Yea he’s dumb. Dude..David Miscavige sucks” “Yea Scientology sucks” “Fuck you dude I don’t agree with you.” Then an insulting argument ensues. That’s WWP in a nutshell for ya.

    A true Anon will have no problem disclosing their true identity. They usually are highly intelligent individuals who are hactivists. They do things. Ya know, like, get important intel, hack into computer systems, release Scientology documents, or release Wikiweak info. That’s an Anonymous activist. They are very professional, classy, and do not gossip on WWP. Because WWP is for kids (or people trying to relive their youth).

    Anyways, just wanted to add that tidbit. I get a lot of messages from Internet trolls who harass me & say they’re Anonymous. I must tell them what I know because they are an ‘Important Anonymous Member’ They try to scare me by acting mysterious and sinister. Those people crack me up 🙂 Cyber cults. Such a glorious thing…lol

  372. Path of Buddha

    Oracle wrote:
    “So, if you just take one minute, just one minute, to TRUST, that all is “RIGHT”, and go take a walk outside and look around, you might find you have been in the “perfect” world all this time. And you are as you should be, and always have been, for who you are. That that “outpoints” and”plus points” are born from attitudes. But there is a balance here in this solar system with all of these particles, and the balance is here because everything carries the perfect weight for who and what they are already.”

    Oracle, you can make words levitate.
    I think that your statement above is the reason that the OT levels that Hubbard developed did not work. Hubbard was always looking for the common denominator or the earliest incident on the chain. This gave no consideration to the dynamic nature of the attitudes or the inherent “balance” within the mind and the universe. Karma perhaps.
    People ran OT VII for ten or more years thinking that they were becoming “pure”. The purity escaped them. The mind turned out to be something more beautiful than the computer analogy Hubbard used. If the mind is a computer, we would have had complete AI years ago. People who downgrade Scientology tend to look at the OT levels as “the removal of BT’s”. This nonsense prevents them from seeing the inner search that was really going on. If one has no desire for “inner search”, Xenu is only fiction. But others can find it a pattern greater than its description. Like you can make words levitate is the best example.

  373. And since the statement, “Absolutes are unattainable”, isn’t false, perhaps you can point out some absolutes that are attainable. While thinking that isn’t true.

  374. To say the statement, “Absolutes are unattainable” is not true. You must have some examples of attainable absolutes?

  375. It is my opinion, that 2 +2 = 4. That doesn’t make it false. In fact it makes it true.

    a view or judgment formed about something, not necessarily based on fact or knowledge.

    You seem to have an opinion, that is something is an opinion, it can not be fact, and neither true or false.

    The above questions can be opinions, but that does not render them “not true or false”.

    You regard “opinion” as a no value in the equation. But if the opinion is based on knowledge, and this is one definition, it does have value.

    You are putting zeros someplace in this equation, at whim. Not based on any knowledge, unless you can lay forth some attainable absolutes.

    That only makes your answer, an opinion. With no value. Unless you have some knowledge to share?

  376. So now I’m a hypocrite. Lovely. Oh well….I learn something new almost everyday.

  377. In fact, you confuse. By adding false information that opinion has no value. And laying that forth as an absolute.

    Just like announcing that Monique made a mistake, by fulfilling legal requirements to file a court document, by disclosing her address and keeping in accordance with the demands of civil law.

    “She made a mistake” was your opinion. She was being responsible and trustworthy and abiding by the demands of civil law, is the truth.

  378. Lonestar – I totally screwed this up. I misread or misinterpreted something somehow. Without trying to re-explain, here’s all I’m saying.

    Just because this is not a world shaking topic, it doesn’t mean it has no value. In fact, it’s showing that it has great value to many people.

    I absolutely meant no criticism of you or Marissa. Maybe I should just take up smoking pot again and quit posting.

  379. Pooling resources. They did sponsor Tony’s Book Tour.


  381. Thank you George. For some kindness and benevolence.

    What I think is that Hubbard really believed man was basically good when he began this journey.

    I think the first bridge was workable. Doable. The Organizations were healthy and symbiotic.

    But he kept running into this thing of finding out people seemed to more, and more, and more, as he uncovered them and found what was underneath was not as holy as he once thought.

    He kept attributing to case, and coming up with more solutions when he just could look at what was in front of him.

    I think it finally hit him, sometime right before he left St. Hill.

    Because he reversed things to put a lid on the whole deal He set up an army, the Sea Org. And he fired them out in enemy conditions to knock out the power, reputation, and whatever else anyone had, out from beneath them. Bypass in enemy and knock everything out from under people in the Orgs.

    And, he sent looneys.

    Then he knocked out the mission network, and set it up so Miscavige was running things, probably fully aware that Miscavige’s purpose (which he literally bragged about on stage at one event), was to “booby trap systems.

    Every person running with a reactive mind, was found to be the creator of it. It was not some accident of force with the natural colliding with the supernatural.

    The people saying there are no clears? Prove it. Not every person is mocking this shit up. Many people do not need it as a tool because they deal directly with life. I have met plenty of people that are driving around with a reactive mind.

    Dianetics didn’t make you a clear? Why the fuck don’t you just stop mocking it up if it is that important to you? It’s like being angry at someone because they couldn’t make you stop picking your nose and eating it.

    The L’s were Hubbard’s last number #1 hit. But if you are run on those and have any kind of mathematical abilities, you realize it is an identity that has the case. And if you toss that identity out of your closet, you don’t have a case. You may still have the purposes, which you drag along and these eventually lead up to you having another similar case if they are not clean purposes.

    I don’t care to get entangled in these disputes. I am not a cop. I am a sometimes a mathematician and the false accounting, wrong items, wrong indications, and unwarranted treason that leads to injustice, causes me to step forward and straighten out the books. Entries that should have been put in the ledger, not there, entries that are put in that do not belong, false values, wrong and stupid math, people that can not add correctly, it does make me feel like tutoring. Doing an audit.

    And that is really all I have been doing on this thread.

    Like when the IRS pops in to do an audit, and people hit the ceiling in protest.

    I appreciate the evil people that plague humanity, we create immunizations and we learn more about them. At the end of the day, tormentors get expelled from this eco system. Have no idea where they go. How much did we learn from the penicillin vaccine? The polio that took so many lives. Forced us to expand our knowledge and resources.

    When they mistake me or someone else though (and they mistakes continuously) for being on a motivator when WE ARE NOT, I do have to reject these wrong items being forced and steer these maggots onto the rotting flesh they are seeking to eek out a meaning.

    In the end, I realize now Hubbard pulled the plug and set up the end chapter. It was wrong that he sent people ghost busting, blaming it all on ghosts. Maybe it was mercy and the only way he could get them to take a peek at the identities in their closet. And at least toss some things out they didn’t care to wear anymore, and forgot they even mocked up. Why look for blame?

    This was written by Nicola Tessla in 1938:

    That man can harness these processes, to:

    -Precipitate matter from the ether
    -Create whatever he wants with the matter and energy derived
    -Alter the earth’s size
    -Control earth’s seasons (weather control)
    -Guide earth’s path through the Universe, like a space ship
    -Cause the collisions of planets to produce new suns and stars, heat, and light
    -Originate and develop life in infinite forms

    He was not heckled to death because he spoke to educated people that had hope. He also explained the Internet in the early 1900’s.

    Hubbard said many of the same things, and has been dragged all over the Earth. But his audience, it is what it is. They want hands outs for abilities and wisdom. Sanity. And that just ain’t never going to happen. Your purposes are decided by you, not others.

    Dealing with forces is not a Scientology thing. If you have a crowd running behind you hitting you in the back, eventually you will turn around and begin to redirect some of that force back on them if it gets to be so much it starts to stick. People that jump into that kind of arena, do so as volunteers. And then, there are no rules. These are voluntary games. there are no victims, only volunteers. When it comes to deliberate evil and bullying.

    And a thousand years after everyone has forgotten about Scientology, this will still be true.

    In this particular theater, we are down to the sediment at the bottom of the pot. What is left after Hubbard turned up the heat to make this thing evaporate.

    I think a lot of us were in the right place at the right time, and we usually are. And that is evident by what we take away from any given event.

    Some people always think they are in the wrong place if they are not winning. Even when they are in the right place to HAVE something, anything. But they are off in time. And they can not see that. Time and place have to be right. It was not their time, and they blame it on the place.

    I stall haven’t been “in my moment”. But I manage to be in the right place at the right time. Even if I learn an inconvenient truth.

    Some people learn an inconvenient truth and just decide they must have been in the wrong place. Don’t even value whatever truth they took away from it.

    Anyway, I do believe I am as I am supposed to be, and have been in the right places at the right time. I do not discard truth because it doesn’t suit my needs. I don’t need to create alter truths because I can’t live in the moment.

    When I walk outside, I just feel everything is as it should be now. And if a wind of force hits by back, I turn around and walk into it.

    That is just a personal honor thing.

    I hope our paths do cross again. All of us, who are grateful to be carrying on, with pleasure moments and good memories.

  382. Hingle McCringleberry

    Judging from the stream of consciousness above, I’d bet real money that you are either a skilled cultivator of certain white spotted, white gilled red toadstools, or are as crazy as a mouse in a milk can.

    Since Marty has endorsed the use of Latin on the blog, I’ll simply ask quo vadis? in relation to your comments.

  383. Personally, I think we are all in the right place at the right time. As we create our own destiny. It is biblical information 2000 years old. Reap what you sow.

    It is wild to see the people crying the loudest about being set up for losses, spending their days and weeks setting others up for losses. It is some kind of loop they can not exit.

    But there ain’t no need to sit and wonder why.

  384. Dubiator Pythiae

    Just a day before this comment, you were speaking about putting people in pens with labels on them. At that time, you thought this was a bad thing. In the absence of some (even anecdotal) evidence that Bunker Commentators are incapable of having or of voicing independent thoughts, it would appear that you’ve expressed dissonant opinions on the same idea. Happily, I am sworn to simply state facts as empirically as I can. Someone more expressive might see themselves as justified in calling you a hypocrite.

  385. Dubiator Pythiae

    While I cannot answer for the original posters’ unease at the prospect of either prompts for thinking or Marty’s extended vocabulary, I can say that a person with a grasp of grammar comparably inferior to Marty’s vocabulary would most likely notice your continuous misuse of punctuation marks and improper sentence formatting.

  386. And, by being in the right place at the right time, “being” implies some causation. Like, if you wake up and it is the wrong place or the wrong time, you shift location.

    If you spent 20 years in the wrong place, why didn’t you move after day one? Because you preferred someone else to think for you? You mean to say you were willing to be parked in the wrong place for 20 fkn years before you stood up and moved?

    I know, a right place can suddenly turn wrong. But wouldn’t you shift within the hour?

    The only reason you stay parked in the wrong place, is if you just didn’t have the will move yourself, but you think others should have moved you to the right place, but didn’t. And since they did not provide a wheel chair, you got parked someplace wrong.

    You take David Mayo. This middle aged white man ran around a pole in the desert until his teeth fell out, a place where only reptiles thrive, and all that time he didn’t get it that he was in the wrong place and the wrong time? Do you see other white people, or any people at all, out in the desert doing that? If the rest of mankind knows that is the wrong place for your ass, can’t you get a clue?

    Whoever ordered him there, were they really that fkn STUPID? To think this was right? That is fkn STUPID.

  387. Then, you know, there was “the hole”. How many men are packing people in storage containers out in the desert? ALIVE. Wouldn’t you know in a right away style this isn’t exactly copacetic? Wouldn’t your average human being get a sense they are not in the right place at the right time? Do you see anyone else doing this? What kind of fkn solutions are these? Unusual to be sure. To date, isn’t David Miscavige the only person on Earth, who has come to this as some sort of solution in the United States as an executive? Parking people he could not lead correctly in storage containers in the desert. I mean, who the fk does that???????? How could you possibly think you are in the right place at the right time? Shouldn’t people at least be expected to know this simple thing, if they are in the right place at the right time? Nothing is forever and sometimes a place turns wrong, but wouldn’t you expect people to be open to knowing these changes and be able to shift? What live person belongs living in a storage container in the desert? When there are homeless shelters and aid? When “wog” benefits are greater than what you are getting, shouldn’t you run across the fkn street? No one is doing you a benefit by parking your live ass in a storage container in the fkn desert.NOBODY, TRUST ME!! We live in a country where you can be out on the street at 5 p.m. and find enough help in your fellow man to have a place to sleep in that night. Trust me I know. There are runaway shelters, police shelters, hari krishna temples, bus stations, airports, front porches, vacant homes for rent or sale with back yards, city buses. Nobody is giving you a hand up parking your ass in the storage container out in the desert. Then waking up in the morning and off to sell “The Survival Rundown” to someone. This is twisted shit. How could anyone think they are in the right place at the right time?]

    You LIFE IS a Survival rundown.

  388. I don’t know Cat daddy. Why can a beautiful, white 6 year old get shot 20 times by 6 cops in broad daylight and NO national media covers it?

    My question is more logical as the NRA’s job isn’t news coverage but defense of the 2nd Amendment.

  389. LOL… It’s okay. Don’t worry about it. The fact is that I know I’ve been hypocritical before. I think everyone has at one time or another. Then there are those who are chronically hypocritical.

    If I could re-write that post I would actually because I think I ended up painting ALL never-ins who post on ex-scientology boards and blogs with a wide brush, which isn’t fair.

  390. GMW and Oracle – Just wow – thank you both

  391. Someonewishingyouwell

    Good night Sarge…End of Watch!

  392. Heckler, Thank you. Your inner Perry Mason is on fire.

  393. I do break rules.

  394. Hi GMW – I have a question for you. It was sort of implied by someone on the last topic, but then this this topic came up. Question – Are you still exploring the mind of Hubbard? The reason I ask, and just a guess, is that you’ve mentioned that Buddha admitted his path was long and arduous. If we grant LRH having any right thinking, then maybe he was looking for shortcuts. I get that his approach was egocentric and all that, but do you feel there could be some overlap and are you exploring?

  395. Permit me to correct my errors:

    Heckler, thank you for your kind attention and concern for proper use of symbols. I struggle daily with these debilitating handicaps. It has been a challenge to survive at all against the backdrop of this disability. I will put forth more effort not to violate my fellow man through improper use of symbols. I deeply appreciate your efforts to survey the chaos here, and put forth your good will to establish proper order in these times of turbulence.

    Regrettably, I know only a little about love.

    Warm regards,

    Little Idiot

  396. Dear Heckler,

    You are clearly a person of destiny. Attuned to the finer arts of social intercourse.

    Adherence to prescribed laws of symbols, signals a person’s class and status, and implies the highest standards of education and social acumen. Proper upbringing, and a high standard of living and worth.

    Disobedience to symbolism, only serve to forewarn of the vulgar lower class. That some would elect to wear this as a badge of honor, serves as an alarm, those that would threaten us, and our careful organization of these symbols that validate our value to mankind.

    Take heed and pleasure in our gifts of discernment.

    Yours sincerely,

  397. The common denominator in every ser fac, is to give someone the wrong indication, that they are in the wrong place at the wrong time.

    People become so displaced with time, to pause to find out, “where one is”, becomes a religious experience.

    The common denominator in all denials of responsibility, is to claim one was in the wrong place at the wrong time.

    This is only my personal view.

  398. And it is within this dynamic of wrong place wrong time, we create the marvelous, mysterious, magical, and unknowable chance known as:

    Ill fortune
    etc etc and all other mystery nobody seems to know anything about or be able to control. The causes assigned to nobody.

  399. This universe is so think with it, you practically have to run “You are in the wrong place at the wrong time” to make things move anymore!!

    How does the Sea Org recruiter recruit? He only needs convince his prey, that he is in the wrong place at the wrong time, and needs shift position to the right place at the right time.

    Every time you get sent to the MAA, you are told you have been in the wrong place at the wrong time, and he is there to return you to the right place at the right time.

    You are told if you even leave that fold, you will be in the wrong place at the wrong time forever. And ever!

    And this isn’t just in the Scientology culture, you have real estate agents scouring the Earth today ensuring people, they are being led to the right place at the right time.

  400. Anytime another being has taken command of your attention, will, purpose or body, they have convinced you, or agreed with you, that you are in the wrong place at the wrong time.

  401. I um…..ordinarily would not have shared that. But given the current climate and crowd, this will be translated to mean I am now taking L.S.D. or dying of brain cancer.

    So, I think we are cool.

  402. I should mention, it is not possible to convince someone they are in the wrong place at the wrong time, unless they are already inclined to lean on that, for support and forgiveness.

  403. Or, simply because they have seen others who claim to be in the wrong place at the wrong time, and become convinced this kind of thing is possible. And their purpose is to restore someone to a rightful place. This thing works on flows.

  404. Well meaning and clean purposed beings, are easily beguiled also.

    And in a symbiotic society, you see a care factor of a parent shifting their child into better place and time, by redirecting them onto better or proper flow channels, and or out of traffic.

    This is something different.

  405. Well, gotta run now. Lovely event, many pleasure moments to carry home with me. Loved embracing the demons, and the exhale.

  406. Chee Chalker

    As fascinated asked….please point to any of Oracle’s 300+ posts that relate to the post at hand.

  407. They gave me a Clear certificate. Something must have happened, right?

  408. Path of Buddha

    Hi Richard!
    “Are you still exploring the mind of Hubbard?”

    Yes, you picked up on it. I have been reading Blavatsky (which is not easy).
    I have also been taking a second look at Crowley.
    What I have found so far is that Hubbard took a lot of material from Blavatsky which he did not acknowledge. Now, perhaps, Hubbard thought of it independently but I have my doubts. I see Hubbard now with a calculating mind. He wanted to be original at all costs so he changed a lot of basic New Age Stuff to fit his ego. For example, Blavatsky clearly implies a level of consciousness greater than the “ascending masters”. Hubbard simply came along and called it theta. You also get a lot about exorcism in Blavatsky. Some of the words in Hubbard’s lectures mirror what Blavatsky wrote.
    In fact, you can see the idea of OT V in Blavatsky, then copied by Hubbard.
    Crowley disliked Hubbard and I can see why. Crowley considered he was in a professional search. Hubbard would have been merely an opportunist.
    Hubbard spent from about 1926 till 1950 reading all the books that were on the Catholic condemned list. We know he read the “book of the Law” by Crowley. It is odd that Hubbard does not talk about Blavatsky in depth. She formulated most of the New Age Ideas which found expression in Scientology.
    Hubbard’s criticism of Gautama Buddha and misconceptions about nirvana are taken from Blavatsky. Hubbard was walking on eggshells carefully altering basic ideas so that he did not need to footnote. Think of Hubbard now as a deceiver. Suppose he had placed footnotes on his sources. Then he could have told us to simply read the 10 books that he used as a source. Thus no need for years of donations and listening to his lectures.
    Hubbard sort of projects his own ego in his lectures. He was formulating his own point of view by very carefully re-naming a lot of what had already been written.

  409. Hiram A. Biff

    Hello Path of Buddha. I think you captured it to a great extent. In my opinion, Hubbard’s genius was his shortcuts, his dishonestly and vanity in not given full credit. One cannot be source when one is not. And shortcuts are just that. I want to suggest another author to you, Harold Waldwin Percival. He was a contemporary of Blavatsky and the theosophists but broke with them. His major work, Thinking and Destiny, will provide a seeker such as yourself a lot to enjoy. The organization that looks after his works is The Word Foundation. The pdf version of that book is available online.

  410. George and Hiram,

    Why do you suppose Hubbard continues to generate so much interest in former Scientologists?

    And if this is not a unique phenomenon, do you know of any comparable examples of former followers of some other system of belief or its leader?

  411. Hiram A. Biff

    Hi Marildi. I can only speak for myself. I have no interest in Hubbard the man, explorer, philosopher, writer, mankind’s best friend, etc, I AM interested in the genealogy of any effective processes he used as I was indoctrinated as a gullible and trusting young man into believing that they were the ONLY way out of the trap for myself and mankind. When I left any active involvement with that unhealthy and selfish organization, I felt badly. I felt I would never achieve the relief and growth of what i could have had if I had stayed with it. It was a loss for me. The church didn’t care if you left with a sense of loss. They did not care if you felt badly. They WANTED you to feel that way. Its one seriously screwed organization and I am nothing if not relieved I am free of it. But deconstructing the historical and any workable “tech”, seeing the sources of it and understanding those schools or teachers was something I sought to do in order to feel better. In hindsight Scientology was more harm than help. As Path of Buddha noted, Hubbard was not very good at leaving footnotes. But as the data and sources are found, the subject loses its hold. Hubbard was its architect. Shame on him for his greed and selfishness. I don’t think its Hubbard that generates interest. I just think so many people have come into contact with it and rode a roller coaster of emotions. The longer they rode it, the more they may be looking back. That may have to do the tech, their job, pride, anger, their friends or family, or other reasons. Hubbard himself I suspect is the least among them.

  412. Path of Buddha

    Hi Marildi!
    Marildi wrote:
    “And if this is not a unique phenomenon, do you know of any comparable examples of former followers of some other system of belief or its leader?”

    Christian Science is practiced to this day. I enjoy reading Mary Baker Edy.
    There is even a reading room right near Flag in Clearwater.
    Jehovah Witnesses know about Anderson and the founder Russell.
    I have recently taked to JW’s and they do know them.
    Mormons talk about Smith.
    They talked about Mani three centuries after his death.
    Maybe I answered the wrong question.

    “Why do you suppose Hubbard continues to generate so much interest in former Scientologists?”

    From my own experience, I have seen a “hope” in former Scientologists. They c
    IMHO, the key to the story divides those who have experienced some good in Scientology from those who have not. If one experienced some benefit, as I did, it is easy to frame the subject into a benevolent cult. The attitude is somewhat positive. Those who experienced no benefit tend to be bitter. However, those who never experienced Scientology, and have no sense of inner search ability, tend towards indifference or hatred and total rejection.

  413. Path of Buddha

    Thanks Hiram,
    I shall have a look at Percival right now.

  414. Just the facts

    Hingle, if you were to read its posts on other blogs you’d zero in on the mouse choice.

  415. Path of Buddha

    Right off the bat, so to speak:
    Percival “Conscious of consciousness”
    Hubbard “Aware of being aware”

    I’ll read Percival’s book. It seems to be OT.

  416. Path of Buddha

    Hi Richard,
    You got me going here with the question about Hubbard’s mind. Take for example, his analysis of facsimile and engram. Blavatsky uses facsimile to explain memory but does not use engram. So along comes Hubbard. He finds engram in one source and he probably gets facsimile from Blavatsky. He joins them together and you get a Scientology concept. Hubbard does not footnote his sources. You get the idea Hubbard is smart. However, he never really ties the words together. It does not go “un-noticed”. You get this “patchwork” kind of pattern in Scientology. Hubbard , to his credit, does introduce the e-meter. But he spends his time trying to identify low order “beings.” You get the same idea with “exteriorization”. You get the “soul” and the “spirit” in Blavatsky. You get the idea of the “creation of reality by ideas” in Hubbard. You end up with patchwork in Scientology. Hubbard gives an entire lecture on “as is” taken from Eastern texts. This is intended in Scientology to makes things vanish, which never works. Hubbard says the world is too complex for you so you cannot do magic to that high level. Again patchwork. The “as is” in the Eastern texts is “not-reality”. Hubbard uses it to try to make reality go away. Scientology is full of these “dapples”. Hubbard needed most of all a good teacher.

  417. Hiram A. Biff

    GMW, you read a fast page and connect the dots quite well. That never even occurred to me. Book published in late 40’s. Percival died in 1953. The event that caused him to be aware occurred in the early 1900’s, I think. I have wondered if he was channeling a higher intelligence without knowing it. Check out the glossary. Find any subject that really interests you and I can guarantee you will find what you read to be quite good. The chapter “Man and his religions” was very interesting. There is a chapter in the book on Freemasonry which was purposely omitted. But the Word Foundation does offer it. Its called “Masonry and its symbols”. I think that the more recent editions of Thinking and Destiny do contain the chapter.

  418. Just the facts

    marildi, from listening to ex’s it seems to be the same type of “interest” that Jews have in Hitler. Or that jews have about people in the present who try to carry on with Nazism. So, from a logic viewpoint, VERY understandable.

  419. George, wouldn’t “not-reality” correspond to “not-is”, rather than “as-is”?

  420. Hiram: “I AM interested in the genealogy of any effective processes he used as I was indoctrinated as a gullible and trusting young man into believing that they were the ONLY way out of the trap for myself and mankind…[D]econstructing the historical and any workable ‘tech’, seeing the sources of it and understanding those schools or teachers was something I sought to do in order to feel better…

    Thanks. That’s an honest and plausible explanation. It may be true for some other ex’es too.

    “I just think so many people have come into contact with it and rode a roller coaster of emotions. The longer they rode it, the more they may be looking back.”

    Another insightful observation. Thanks again, Hiram.

  421. Hey there, George.

    I wasn’t very clear. The main thing I meant to ask you was whether you know of any other teaching or practice (since you’ve studied many) whose former members, or some of them, are or were disaffected and yet, similar to many former Scientologists, still have a lot of attention on that former practice, as indicated by how much they talk or write about it.

    Thanks for your other thoughts too.

  422. Path of Buddha

    Hi Oracle,
    Thanks for the great music! “Paths” will cross again. I read your post several times and decided on this reply.
    Towards the end of his life, Hubbard stated that the human case was so deep that it was necessary to audit the GE or the genetic entity. This aligns with your statement about Hubbard changing his view about the goodness in people. Audit the GE? This is revolution. This is massive change. This is a whole new bridge. This is millions in donations! This goes contrary to everything he wrote about. This is the problem with seat of the pants research.
    Now you need to find this little rat sitting in the pit of your stomach and talk to him. You could talk to BT’s for 10 years but they were merely unconscious. The GE is stimulus response.
    I tried an experiment after I realized this. It seems that Napoleon, my cat, is wild, as you know. So I decided to see if I could start him on his OT levels. This would be great because we could get him inside for his last few years.
    But how do you do this? I went to Walmart and bought red, yellow, blue and white paper plates. The trick is to change the colors by rotating the plates. The cat is probably color blind but I think he sees light and dark shades. Nopoleon has very good OT-TR0 and I will continue this as long as I see case gain.
    This is all a set-up for learning how to audit the GE that Hubbard talked about. Hubbard used about 10 books as his source material. It seems that they ran out of answers for him at the end. It is interesting that he thought that once the Marcab implants ran out their charge, humans would be bad. Maybe Christianity was covering up all the bad nature of humans all along.
    At any rate, this shift to auditing the GE for Scientology is the most major change ever contained in the religion. It would be like building Mt Everest and then finding out the base was made of quicksand needing only a little moisture to turn into a soft swamp.

  423. Just the facts, I see what you are saying, but there are significant differences between Hubbard and Hitler in type and degree of harm done. And Nazism isn’t something the Jews had once been involved with themselves, as is the case with Scientology and former Scientologists.

    As an example of what I’m asking about, is there any teaching that has former members who are posting on numerous blogs and websites and speaking out against that teaching? Do you (or anybody else here) know of any?

  424. Path of Buddha

    Hi Marildi!
    Thanks for the clarification. I cannot identify any group that is like Scientology. I only know that I have heard of Moonies and Mormons that dwell on the subject. I know of a young Mormon girl af about 20 who posted on a website for former Mormons.
    What is your idea about why Scientology is different?

  425. Path of Buddha

    Hi Valkov.! Nice to hear from you.
    I had to be very careful in that statement and I pondered it in different ways.
    I should have clarified it. Hubbard used as-is and not-is. As I recall from my Scientology days, “As-is” means to see as something truly is, like a perfect duplicate. “Not-is ” means to block it out. These definitions should be refined. However, I should have said that I was not qualified to discuss the issue from the Hindu or Vedic point of view. When you see something as it truly is in Theravada, you “as is” it. You are seeing it from a knowledge base which is “supramundane”. I should have said all of that. Thanks.

  426. Path of Buddha

    By “not reality”, I did not mean to imply “not-is”. By “not reality” I meant to imply something other than reality.

  427. Alert! Programmed drones. Felt obligated to pass this on.

    You may be feel you are corresponding on these lines with people, who are actually programmed drones. They are not evil people, or unintelligents, they are programmed drones.

    We have two that have been inserted into this arena, I do not know by whom. They arrives from left field. “never ins”, never involved directly with Scientology.

    One has taken over ESMB and had been “passing” as an Ex Scientologist being a member there.

    The other, is the author of Underground Bunker and is “passing” as an “expert and now spokesperson on Scientology.”

    I considered these live terminals and it has just occurred to me that these are drones.

    Programmed drones.

    If you look at the UB history on this event with Monique, even though her reasons for dismissal are filed in the court documents, and she was a client only, in a partnership. Even though, her own attorneys who were part of that partnership assured UB there was no settlement, even though UB “legal expert Texas” assured there was no settlement, Ub went on to report an unjust employee firing had occurred, and a settlement has taken place.

    Whatever was available for him to see or hear, he had been programmed and this program could not be altered. It is a programmed drone.

    At ESMB even though Bunny Skull has been given all the above opportunities plus many more, as well as the part her fair gaming on ESMB played. Reminded of Debbie Cook’s settlement. Yesterday she posts “Two months ago Marty/Monique fired their lawyers, Ray Jeffery, with no explanation while they were in the middle of a big winning streak. THis cost Ray $100,000’s in expenses and time he will probably never recoup.”

    Whatever was available for her to see or hear, she had been programmed and this program could not be altered.This is a programmed drone.

    These are programmed drones. Never ins. Passing as people who can relate with us. Or have been one of us, on one level or another.

    And these are the two most potent forces, behind the conflicts between one another that have been in.

    And these drones are playing us like kids play with toy soldiers.

    Evil people can be taught, enlightened, changed, and helped. Programmed drones can not, They infiltrate areas, copy identities and words and mimic, then enter false information and generate conflict.

    Not just in Scientology arenas. In many social arenas. They are not of human species.

    We have social contracts with another as human beings, to help and take responsibility for another, for our future race.

    They are outside of these social contracts and mostly, have no heirs to preserve a future for.

    Other names have been laid forth to describe these and put them in a mental handicap cart.(Such as sociopaths etc)

    They are programmed drones.

    They are “never ins” across the boards.

    We need to stop harming attacking and suppressing our fellow man, on their commands, plots and conspiracies.

    I have no idea where they are sent from, or why. Who is making them and how, to imitate human life and people. But it must be someone who is afraid of us. It is not of this species. Only copies of people in this species. It is neither man, being, or machine. It is a synthetic carrier wave.

    Don’t believe me, unless you have already encountered one, or can recall having countered one, or do encounter one in your future. But do keep in mind for your future, I have found this to be true. And if you are in a situation that bears resemblance to a drone like this, if you cease to relate to it as if it were one of us, you cease to be the effect of it and it moves to another area or target. It never actually “sees” you or “feels” you. It never actually “cares” about you.

    It is simply a programmed drone. Like your vacuum cleaner.

    Happy trails my friends. Try to love your fellow man. We should be able to leave this Earth in a better way than we found it. It was a trust. Nobody thrives from ill will. Flourish and prosper. Make happy memories you can carry through eternity. This is where your immortality lies.

  428. P.S. The drones are unaware of consequences as they do not “suffer” consequences. They are not here on the same terms as every one else. They also on the side, do not “hope”.

    These are synthetic beings.

    It is not about Scientology. It is about the human race.

  429. Programmed drones are commanding, ruling, leading, influencing and motioning, members of the human race. Through mimicry.

  430. The reason sociopaths do not feel empathy, shame or remorse, is because they are not humans!!!

    They are drones.

  431. Holy crap on a cracker.

  432. They are not dangerous, there isn’t even a being there. They just mimic. And some groups of humans, mimic the drones.

  433. This is actually evidence, that there are advanced civilizations out there.

  434. Thanks for the clarifications George. BY the way, I read your book and it is a fascinating look at parts of scientology and Hubbard’s thinking that most of us never got before. The genetic stuff he was thinking is amazing It’s a long way from the “OT” concepts he postulated on the Grade Chart.

  435. Here is a very different look from Roger Boswarva on the whole subject:

    I have no idea how one reconciles Hubbard’s later genetic beliefs with this type of experience which was the result of his early work.

  436. The role of the programmed drone is two fold. One, the first part, is to accuse you, as if it were a crime, of “doing nothing, being nothing, no effect, being nothingness, etc etc. In other words, doing nothing as a crime. The crime, is doing, being or having, nothingness. This is an example of a programmed drone performing it’s function.

  437. The second program, is to accuse you of doing SOMETHING. And always making this a crime as well. So, if you do nothing, or something, you are equally guilty. therefore, you can not win in this game. You get locked in a gpm. Either way you committed a crime doing something or nothing. Until people do not move, to “be right”.

  438. All you have to do, is work around the drones. And reach your goals, to win the game. If your goal is to do nothing or something. But it can not be at the drone’s command.

    And that is how you win the game.

  439. This is a huge force in Scientology. Because when you get in, you are first made guilty for doing something, (your overts and with holds), then you are accused of doing nothing (never contributing enough). When you do join staff, to do something, you are constantly hit for not doing enough, or for every something you did.

    Having said that, if I did not walk path though, and get the auditing, I could not have seen what happening there.

    This ser fac. “doing nothing, doing something” it goes on flows. Like, if you do not accuse someone else for the something of doing doing nothing.

    It gets very muddled as a group effort.

    The lie is, you can not “do nothing”. If you are being and perceiving, you are doing something. So, someone accusing you of doing nothing, or not doing enough, invalidates your very beingness.

    When Marty forst popped up on the radar, he got hit consistently with charges that he either: 1. Did something. 2. Did nothing. It got so bad that when he did do something, like write a book, he got hit for that something, by being told he did nothing, by not telling enough. Or not telling the right thing. Some people have this down to an art.

    When you do something, and get accused of doing nothing, it does not go any further south. And of course, he had a programmed drone or a copy of one right on top of this.

    I think, perhaps this may be a natural and organic and true justice system we are in. If you are clean of purpose, you do not get slammed by thought stopping and creative stopping accusations. Marty went on to write another book, O.K.?

    If you can go through this life, and not get wrapped around the pole by this constant set up to re stimulate you, you get free. If you can not, you spin here. And nothing stays the same. You get better or worse. Here, if these re stimulative drones key you in to what you did or did not do, you begin to mimic them to only survive.

    That anyone out here accuses you of not delivering, as if they had you on payroll, is ridiculous. Unless they are paying you, then it is valid.

    Nobody is paying Marty to do anything or nothing. Yet, some people feel owed. More intel, more education, more gossip, more “explanations”. I have no idea why, even I can not explain that.

    Whatever Marty has given is theater, has been a voluntary gift.

    It was not enough for some. Try explaining that. I can not.

    I do understand these drones, and the groups they manage. The people that underneath these conditions. I am not making them guilty for the something they are. I think, it may be for just reasons. It may be a truly just system.

    I own whatever something I have done and done not. I am not saying that is easy, I am just saying Own it. I do not owe anyone anything. Not a mind set or a pattern or an attitude. I lead myself. I do not have followers, I do not care to think for others, rather encourage them to think for themselves.

    I do not feel bad, for all of the something you have done. Including being here, or there, or wherever you were when you did it.

    I tried, for some of you that only have an internet connection as your only concern and trust, to refrain from making two parents responsible for a child, the targets of cruelty. But I am not holding anything against you if you could not manage that. You are in a justice system already. It will all work out for the best.

    I am truly guilty of “doing nothing” else to stand in your way.

    Am I am truly guilty of “doing something” to lift myself away from this fucking madness.

    And I know Marty will survive. He has clean purposes. He is in favor with the Gods.

    And I am not apologetic for either of us surviving. It is a God Given right. Not something we were supposed to earn from you.

  440. And you do not even need to walk the halls of Scientology, to figure out this game.

  441. Excellent, George – I take it then, that you are doing an intellectual analysis of Crowley and Blavatsky, rather than Hubbard per se. I thought that maybe you were investigating where LRH was going and that maybe you thought he was onto something worth pursuing.

    Were you already reading Crowley and Blavatsky, or did that Ghost video “From The Pinnacle to the Pit” get you going? – laughter

    I like your take on the basically three different takes someone might have about scn. I’ve handled my by-passed charge on the subject (sometimes scio-speak is fun) and I continue to enjoy the conversation here.

    I’ll listen to and watch a couple of Ghost videos which puts my head in a good place, and then off to work.

  442. Hi Hiram – Nice to see you again. My ruin for getting into scn as a young man was intellectual stagnation. I hadn’t read a book in two years. We certainly got an eyeful, earful, and mindful of new thinking when we got into scn, didn’t we? smile

  443. agree! 🙂

  444. good summary 🙂

  445. Thanks, George.

    My best guess about why Scientology is different with respect to how much former members “dwell on the subject” is that it has to do with the reason “items” hang up in time – i.e. the energy/charge on those items persists. According to Hubbard, this happens when there are two equal but opposing forces, as with GPM’s, for example.

    In other words, many Scientologists experienced very good as well as very bad experiences, creating a large amount of unhandled charge in balance.

  446. Path of Buddha

    Hi Valkov,
    Thank you for the kind words. I appreciate them.
    The Maiden Voyage of the Freewinds was truly a remarkable experience.

  447. Path of Buddha

    Richard wrote:
    “Were you already reading Crowley and Blavatsky, or did that Ghost video “From The Pinnacle to the Pit” get you going? ”

    The Ghost video did get me going into reading Blavatsky. It hit me that this occult stuff is still very popular.
    I am beginning to think that if Hubbard had lived longer, he would have introduced a new form of auditing to handle the GE and the genetic code. He probably would have added to the ?Stitchen? legacy. I think this train of thought says that humans were engineered by aliens to be slaves. In that case, there would have been an implant about 17,000 years ago. I also think that Hubbard’s approach to OT VII was too narrow and wasted time on little bugs. So I don’t think Hubbard formulated anything, but I tend to think that the new direction is logarithmic auditing . In the end, the code is best expressed as a power to a base.

  448. Thank you for doing something.

  449. Thank you for doing something.

  450. Path of Buddha

    Thanks for the kind words, Hiram.
    Percival got “Conscious of Consciouness” from Blavatsky. It was either Isis Unveiled or The Secret Doctrine. I picked up on it.

  451. Dale Arthur

    Incredible lyrics, incredible voice.

  452. And I want to thank Tony Ortega for what he does. He is the hardest working ethics officer in history. His role is to snitch. He has a myriad of humans out searching for scoops, called tipsters. He built this crew from the ground up.

    He has filed a knowledge report every day for years. He has written more knowledge reports than any Scientologist in history. He writes a daily K.R. on the Church of Scientology or on a Scientologists, sometimes getting three reports inside his daily publication.

    And in my view, he has delivered the most shocking and important knowledge report in history today:

    “Because of the nature of Scientology and its snitching culture and blackmailing practices, you’d be an idiot to trust a Scientologist with anything more than your lunch order.”

  453. Also I want to thank him for blanket treason assignment on this identity.

  454. Hubbard did that with psychiatrists, and that became a morivator er, motivating force for many people.

  455. I commend Tony Ortega, and the people of ESMB, for putting ethics in on the planet.

  456. Interesting. That may be. I read both those works and I am not recalling it. If you see the whole body of Percical’s work, you will see it goes much deeper than that descriptive point. Personally, I did not find Blavatsky’s works helpful on a personal level. She seemed to be a bit of a con artist. Her “hidden masters” reminds me of unreleased OT levels.

  457. And I commend all of the contributors to Tony’s Knowledge Reports, who file their knowledge reports in his comments section. Thank you for your efforts to put ethics in on the planet.

  458. Dogs are born with tails. Humans are born with consciousness. Chemicals coagulate, life forms evolve, and eventually a life form evolves to consciousness. Poetic interpretations are something to do. Programmed Drones are an evolutionary species.

  459. You’re in favor with The Oracle. This one is for you.

  460. Oracle (with all due respect),
    Every human being will eventually physically die. Absolute. Obtainable.
    Two parts hydrogen and one part oxygen will produce water. Absolute. Obtainable.
    Denial of oxygen to the human brain for more than 1 hour will produce unpleasant results. Absolute. Obtainable.
    ‘Man is basically good’ is an opinion. Qualifiable. Quantifiable. Not Absolute.
    ‘Absolutes are not attainable’ is another opinion’.Quantifiable. Quantifiable. Not Absolute.
    Mr. Hubbard was a master at wordsmithing where investigation into the validity of his verbal innuendo’s was lacking. Surely you know this.
    Lastly Oracle, you are a prolific writer which I appreciate and admire. And though it took me considerable time and effort (at being willing to understand the meaning of your own wordsmithing) I finally realized you are borderline genius. Thus I hope you do not take this post as a symbol or sign of personal disrespect. To the contrary…..

  461. Larry Moore: “Mr. Hubbard was a master at wordsmithing where investigation into the validity of his verbal innuendo’s was lacking… And though it took me considerable time and effort (at being willing to understand the meaning of your own wordsmithing) I finally realized you [The Oracle] are borderline genius.”

    Oracle can correct me if I’m wrong, but I believe she has given a lot of credit for her abilities to having done the L Rundowns – processes created by Mr. Hubbard, the “master at wordsmithing.”

  462. “It is my opinion, that 2 +2 = 4. That doesn’t make it false. In fact it makes it true.” Oracle.

    Your opinion is irrelevant. My opinion is irrelevant. Einsteins opinion is irrelevant, to the fact that 2 + 2 = 4. Surely you know this.

    Mathematics being the alphabet of manifest structure is akin to letters being the alphabet of written words. One can take the letter A, for example, and write the letter A down on a piece of paper and burn that paper up into ashes. But the letter A still exists. For the simple reason Conceivabilities of Consciousness precede any and all manifest form and are not subject to human opinion (or knowledge) for the validity of their being real, actual and or true.

    Mr. Hubbard understood this fundamental principle of conscious and unconscious being (I believe) and though, he also understood the fundamental principle that states (roughly): Human belief trumps factual reality where emotional affiniity is concerned.

    Back to the post at hand, cyber cults….they exist and they exist in my world for the purposes of enlightening me. Just as the entire world existed for Mr. Hubbard for the purposes of enlightening Mr. Hubbard.

    Footnote: I Loved your mention of the Perfection of Everything, for the simple reason everything serves a purpose (my words, not yours).

  463. Path of Buddha

    Thanks Marildi,
    The last communication I got from Flag was about the GPM stuff. That is
    the explanation they gave. But I must admit it was to cover up about the money they owed my wife and I. We never got our refunds.
    We still have hope that somehow a court case will make it all right.
    I have a couple of additional reasons for sticking around:

    1. Hubbard implied he was the Buddha’s teacher. I joined the ranks of the Buddhist Lion Guard. Sounds funny but it is an ancient tradition to protect the Buddha. We are not real lions. We just roar.
    2. I had to get the OT VIII material into the hands of the academic circles. This has been completed as the material has been featured at conferences in the United States and Europe. Hugh Urban of Ohio State was the key player in that task. You might be surprised to learn that the academic community easily grasps the OT VIII material. They study religion for a living and many of them can easily place Scientology in the history of religion.
    3. I have personally helped almost 50 OT’s to complete whatever cycles they were stuck in. This job is complete as time has erased a lot of the task.
    4. As you know, Hubbard left a lot of loose ends. I have been working to actually help the man. It sounds funny but it is true.
    5. I have preserved my notes from auditing OT VIII on the Freewinds. When the Church of Scientology re-claims its rightful copyright to the 1980 Student Briefing, I will release them. This too sounds funny but Miscavige could have made billions.


  464. David Miscavige’s product is fear.

    Tony Ortega, feeds off the fear.

    They really do have a symbiotic relationship.

  465. The key word here, is “Independent”. A Bunker is not an independent. It is a group member. Part of a tribe. You describe this as an “Independent” under a tribe. This is not possible. But you do not have to justify calling me names. I’ve been called worse things than a hypocrite, and there are worse things than a hypocrite. I am capable of anything. And I admit it. I would rather be a hypocrite than a pimp. Or a supporter of a pimp. If I am a hypocrite, fine. I can be that. I can shape shift into anything. But some things, really are beneath me. And that is going very, very low. Because there are very few things beneath me, trust me. But treason, that is beneath me. Profiting off of misery, I can do better than that. I’m a hypocrite. There, I’m busted. If you think that is the worse crime I could confess to, you are so off base I do not want to tell you. I have been far far worse, than a hypocrite. But I have never been a pimp. And whatever I have been, I have profited from want, not misery.

  466. Chee, seriously, you think more of me than i do of myself.

  467. So sorry you find the accommodations not to your pleasure Mr. Chris. You were seeking pleasure and found yourself in controversy and strife. We have failed you in pleasure seeking. So sorry Mr Chris to displease you.

  468. Yes, fear is always the why. Couldn’t be anything else but fear. If Marty doesn’t “get you” it must be his deficiency. Could not possibly have anything to do with you or what you communicate. Has nothing to do with you.The burden is all on him and his failure to communicate and perceive. You irresponsible heartless courage less victim y little mfker.

  469. Go run this rap on some oblivious. It is so outdated.

  470. Because treason = expulsion. And I am not in treason. In your book, attitude = expulsion. You are here for entertainment. If you are not pleased someone should be thrown out the door. So, I am just curious, because if you contributed to this entertainment in some way, Marty owes you something you did not get, how are you a dissatisfied customer begging for a producer’s edit?

  471. Chee what the fk? You make me dizzy. Ray comped Debbie Cook, because of Marty she got comped. Ray took a kick back on the end. His percentage for representing her. His part of her pay out. He profited off of her misery as much as she did. She got paid, he got paid. Even though he never suffered.This is when lawyers agree to represent you and split to proceeds. People are out here claiming Ray worked for Monique for no fee. Prior to Monique, who hooked Ray up with Debbie Cook? Marty. Ray got paid, big time. He made big bank, on Marty’s back! The money came from C of S, which Ray deposited into his bank account. This is nothing but standard game.Damn, I almost can not believe you have a law degree. I have a ninth grade education and have to educate you 24/7 if not by Google, reading the Internet.

  472. Path of Buddha

    Valkov wrote:
    “I have no idea how one reconciles Hubbard’s later genetic beliefs with this type of experience which was the result of his early work.”

    I can’t reconcile it either, but I think Hubbard went in stages:

    1. “Be three feet back of your head”. ( just grunt and glue youself outside)
    2. “as is” as expressed in the link you provided. (mental adjustments)
    3. Thetans have distorted perception (GPM’s and black holes)
    4. The “L’s” (Clean out the house.)
    5. “Solo Nots” – (blow away the bubbles)
    6 Implants – (It was never your fault. blame Xenu)
    7. I give up. Find pure bodies – (Audit the GE, DNA, and aliens)
    8 Others not mentioned (try anything)

    None ever worked in producing a full OT. Hubbard probably wanted to stay self-centered. It did not work in the East, if you believe the legends.


  473. You’ve got me there. I am just, really very unattuned to genetics. I heard about the G.E. early on as a separate co existing entity. But I could not relate to that.

    I had no idea what power the body had on me (not others), until I fell in love. And I just don’t think that prevailing force, was genetics.

    I wish, I could only know, how I could make it that simple. I have been able to take on a lot of things. I do not mention them

    But love, I can not control.

    Throw me hate any day of the week, I will rise above this. Throw me oppression, and ignorance, hate and injustice,Lies and politics I am not concerned to overcome these things.

    But love is something beyond my control. I can not rise above that thing alone, And come out whole.

  474. Dear Oracle – You have been engaged in the scn discussion for many years. You are using this platform to express some of your philosophy of life, which is ok with me.

    Regarding the topic, your 32 point exposition above, I think, shows the obvious and also subtle reasons why Marty has every reason to be enraged at T.O.

    Looking at a couple of the ESMB posts, some people have reposted the Texas Lawyer drivel, and some of the commentors following still don’t get it that an injustice was done.

    You are using your creative thinking to come up with ever more ways of expressing your displeasure with this, as well as your displeasure with people who are insulting or demeaning yourself.

    This programmed drone metaphor is just another example. Just sayin

  475. Larry, Thank you for your curiosity. And your very kind way of speaking, Truth is, I am a very sensitive being. I respond to gentleness because there is lots of space created in a gentle manner. It has been a very rough con testy week. Good people are being thrown under the bus and why? No good reason. Marty means good. What do you need to know after that? I mean good. I ain’t famous for doing wrong by people. In fact, well never mind.

    Your opinion means something to me, because it carries good will. And it is moved forward by love. And this is why opinions can matter. And this is the only reason opinions carry any weight, it is the love beneath them. And love is senior to reason.

  476. Yes, unreasonableness is senior to reason. If it is backed by love. I can’t explain how I know this yet. Because I would have to fall on reason. And that would make me unloving. And love is unreasonable. But it is because it is ABOVE reason. And I am sorry, but I can’t tell you why. Because that would involve reason, and this has no “reason”. Love needs no justification. But it breaks down in a group and becomes reconcilable in a way that is out of the bounds of intimacy. Things that are known between two people can never ever be known, by a group. This is not knowledge that can be transferred or shared. It is impossible.I think this is an absolute. I think Hubbard didn’t get it right when he said there are no absolutes. I have experienced absolute love. I know there are absolutes.I have been in many absolutes. From negatives to positives. I believe in absolutes, all the way. I have been absolutely in love. I have been absolutely loyal. I have been absolutely devoted. I have been absolutely committed. I have been absolutely professional. I have been absolutely numb.”There are no absolutes” is a can’t have.

  477. Hi G,

    You have a unique list of reasons for “sticking around.” Can you elaborate a little more on this one:

    “4. As you know, Hubbard left a lot of loose ends. I have been working to actually help the man. It sounds funny but it is true.”


  478. Best of luck to you Marty

  479. flyonthewall stands tall

  480. Oh, I believe they are drones. Why would a human being lack empathy? Not feel shame or remorse? They do. Why would a human being be anti social? When they survive through society. Do you see this in animal herds? One cow goes all gnarly and starts biting the others? Dogs can get vicious but you don’t see them in herds. Have you read, “The Sociopath Test” or “Snakes in Suits” or , “The Sociopath Next Door”?

    Their goal is enslavement. I said long ago they were another species. I even said it in this blog. Now I think they are programmed drones.

    Read the traits:

    You read that and tell me if you think these are humans.

    As far as displeasure, I wouldn’t use that word to describe me in this. I do not feel that others owe me pleasure through living their own lives. I was disheartened.

    Some things really needed to be said.

    Now it’s done. With Ortega, and ESMB, it is no secret I was banned from both places with a history of speaking out about the bullying. That has nothing to do with pleasure. And I am not the only one. There is a Facebook page with over 400 members on it called The Ministry Of Flying Ducks , I only found about yesterday. I am not on it but I was told it was a group of people that have had a platform to speak up about the cyber bullying and fair gaming.

    And you probably were not around when , after being verbally abused and cyber bullied, over at the Underground Bunker,, Brad Halsey , a very fragile person at the time, and managing depression as best he could, took his own life. That was two years ago.

    I said long ago, “Humanity before Scientology”.

    Don’t you think it is about time someone started yelling about this, besides me?

    How bad did this have to get? To the point where A woman was cyber stalked, gang stalked and media fair gamed for how many months? Over a forum and a blog and not only that, “someone” urged other media sources to join in!

    And instead of doing something about it some people pop up here and bitch about my posts? While they whine about a cult? THOSE ARE CULTS.

    Sure, I went long winded about it. If those “people” were standing in front of me, I wouldn’t have said of word.Do you honestly suppose my preferred method of handling this kind of thing is running my fingers on a key board?

  481. The next time someone is in front of you, notice that they are absolutely alive.

  482. You called me courage-less? While you sit there and hide behind a fake came, replying to my comment that has my real name and birthdate attached to it? What a disgusting accusation.

  483. Brad Halsey. rip Ripped Into Pieces

  484. Then ask yourself, if you can be absolutely sure about that.

  485. Tony did two puff pieces on himself this week, trying to pass himself off as the Red Cross.

    A cult attacking a cult, is how insane some things can can get.

    I’m done talking about it here.

    But I’m not done. It’s going to be a slow burn. We have workable and humane instruments in our society, to manage the madness.

    When a bill passes through Congress called the “Ortega” bill, the Underground Bunker can do their “Victory Lap”.

  486. Then Tony can do a puff piece on himself and how he contributed to the welfare of children.

  487. Path of Buddha

    Continued from a thread with Marildi.
    I wrote something about how I was trying to help Hubbard.

    In comparing Hubbard to Miscavige, I find more damage from Miscavige. Therefore, I tend to see Hubbard’s flaws in a more favorable light. My own flaws are numerous, to say the least, so I should not be rude and call Hubbard an egomaniac.
    As you know, I really have no faith in Hubbard’s definition of a thetan so I won’t consider him a thetan. Let us leave the issue of his immortality to the side. Let’s just leave it as a question.
    Nirvana was not an option for Hubbard since he openly trashed it.
    According to my own system of belief, Hubbard would now have a lot of work to do to get his Karma straight. Hubbard is gone but there will be rebirth so I will help.

  488. Another thing to consider Richard, on the drones, is this. They ALL have those same traits in common. That is a PROGRAM.


    provide (a computer or other machine) with coded instructions for the automatic performance of a particular task.
    “it is a simple matter to program the computer to recognize such symbols”

    Do you see it now?

  489. Marty,
    For what it’s worth, Sarge’s statement is a self evident falsehood. How could LRH have failed if he could “choose” to come back to earth, or not – makes no sense. Worst case, Sarge is a liar looking for notariety – or he misunderstood the comm.

    Also, there is no way that LRH would not have immediately recognized a tesla coil.

    On LRH’s death cert it clearly states “traces” of vistoril, it was used as an antihistamine (anti itch). I knew Doctor Denk since 1981 up to the day he died, I was his patient and trusted friend, I was a highly trained, staff auditor and I was a mission holder. I was in great comm with Gene. He told me that a few hours before he left, LRH was tone 40 and was very busy working. He was NOT bed ridden. I 100% believe Denk and 100% discard Sarge’s statement as a blatent lie for money, or an error. The tech is a wonderful life time study and a practical application of a spiritual being’s relationship to the physical universe. LRH did not fail at this. KSW says it all.

    Also, I am an old guy, getting ready to move on too, I am trusted by many, and I am telling you – that Shelly and David have a SON, now approx 10 years old. I am very happy that David was the trusted one.

    I thank you as always, for your part in winnng the IRS war. Please, get right with the Church, handle Rinder (not much hope for that) and 86 a true SP Ortega (but not physically hurt him). Bacteria2Namonia

  490. “The next time someone is in front of you, notice that they are absolutely alive…. Then ask yourself, if you can be absolutely sure about that”

    Beautifully conceived (and spoken). Thank you Oracle. Reminds me of those equally beautifully conceived (and spoken) words of Maharaj. “The only thing I can be, and am, absolutely sure of, is that I Am” (in his book “I Am That”. (paraphrased by me, with his blessings, I hope and trust).

    Also I would like to address your words: “Unreasonableness is senior to reason (‘if’ it is backed by love).

    If you and I were sitting alone Oracle, this is what I would share with you.

    Somewhere (once upon a time) I did what was called the EST training and the concept of being reasonable or unreasonable was brought up by the ‘teachers’, with the innuendo being that being reasonable was an error thus implying being unreasonable was a senior idea and consequently, a senior (psychological) behavior.

    There were approximately 500 people in attendance. It was day two or three of a four day commitment (I can’t recall the linear facts). I had witnessed in day one and two, numerous individuals stand up, speak up (as a challenge) and get shut down with great fanfare, force and humiliation (some cried). And there I was, unable to stop my heart beat from increasing, unable to reason with myself “shut up Larry, don’t you dare stand up, you will be humiliated in front of 500 people strong”. But I couldn’t help myself Oracle. I raised my hand. I was called upon and a young man carrying a microphone scrambled towards me and extended his hand and the microphone in it, as he knelt down before me. I trembled. I stood up. I peed my self a little bit (in secret) And then I spoke.

    Words I remember (i.e. the meaning of) to this day…

    “Being reasonable or unreasonable is a concept devoid of meaning in the absence of context (the room was silent, my heart was pounding harder and harder and I was becoming increasingly indignant and unstoppably angry (partly for the reason I believed at the time I hate when people make other people cry, for no good reason). I continued my tirade: You stand on that stage and are telling us that our being reasonable with ourselves according to our own perception of our own lives is an error, and that you will fix us, provided we accept your definition of what is reasonable and unreasonable. And your definition of being unreasonable is to give you our money and bring you our friends to give you their money too, to fix us. I don’t accept that definition”. End quote.

    Now with God as my Witness (to borrow an old phrase), the Speaker did not attack me (as he had attacked every other person that had the balls to stand up and confront him). To the contrary, for what seemed like an eternity, but was likely closer to 4 or 5 seconds, he was silent. And finally he said: “I get it”. “I understand your point of view”.

    And the crowd went wild with cheering….no, that didn’t happen Oracle.

    Truth is the crowd was silent. But in their silence I felt their love, not so much for me, but for the words of wisdom that chose me, to arise, in that moment, at that place, at that time.

    The only motion in the room I was aware of was that of my wife (sitting beside me) reaching over and kissing me on the cheek (as a way of saying good job Larry). But I knew in that moment the reality of philosophical/spiritual concepts (of any sort or measure) in the absence of human context, is a product of human imagination.

    Meaning then, is Unreasonableness senior to Reason?

    You nailed it.

    Yes. Yes it is. When backed by (Conscious) Awakened Love.

    Kudo’s to you Oracle. Again and again (and again for good measure).


  491. singanddanceall

    Hey Oracle,

    it has nothing to do with getting ethics in on the planet.

    It has to do with there are no clears or ot’s.

    All the books written are by whistle blowers.

    Here are the books and many other forms of communication:

    What is wrong with scientology?

    Memoirs of a scientology warrior.

    Blown for good.

    Counterfeit Dreams,


    Underground Bunker

    Something Can Be Done About It, Mike Rinder.

    A Piece of Blue Sky


    My Harrowing Escape Jenna Miscavige

    Madman or Messiah

    The Unbreakable Miss Lovely


    ExScintology Kids blog

    Karen You Tube.

    Chris Shelton.

    On and on.

    Are you saying all these peeps who have everywhere posted their experiences are getting ethics in on the planet?

    Or are they whistle blowers?

    On the fact that dianetics and scientology is supposed to produce a clear and then OT?

  492. They all have the same identical program:

    Profile of the Sociopath

    This website summarizes some of the common features of descriptions of the behavior of sociopaths.

    Glibness and Superficial Charm

    Manipulative and Conning
    They never recognize the rights of others and see their self-serving behaviors as permissible. They appear to be charming, yet are covertly hostile and domineering, seeing their victim as merely an instrument to be used. They may dominate and humiliate their victims.

    Grandiose Sense of Self
    Feels entitled to certain things as “their right.”

    Pathological Lying
    Has no problem lying coolly and easily and it is almost impossible for them to be truthful on a consistent basis. Can create, and get caught up in, a complex belief about their own powers and abilities. Extremely convincing and even able to pass lie detector tests.

    Lack of Remorse, Shame or Guilt
    A deep seated rage, which is split off and repressed, is at their core. Does not see others around them as people, but only as targets and opportunities. Instead of friends, they have victims and accomplices who end up as victims. The end always justifies the means and they let nothing stand in their way.

    Shallow Emotions
    When they show what seems to be warmth, joy, love and compassion it is more feigned than experienced and serves an ulterior motive. Outraged by insignificant matters, yet remaining unmoved and cold by what would upset a normal person. Since they are not genuine, neither are their promises.

    Incapacity for Love

    Need for Stimulation
    Living on the edge. Verbal outbursts and physical punishments are normal. Promiscuity and gambling are common.

    Callousness/Lack of Empathy
    Unable to empathize with the pain of their victims, having only contempt for others’ feelings of distress and readily taking advantage of them.

    Poor Behavioral Controls/Impulsive Nature
    Rage and abuse, alternating with small expressions of love and approval produce an addictive cycle for abuser and abused, as well as creating hopelessness in the victim. Believe they are all-powerful, all-knowing, entitled to every wish, no sense of personal boundaries, no concern for their impact on others.

    Early Behavior Problems/Juvenile Delinquency
    Usually has a history of behavioral and academic difficulties, yet “gets by” by conning others. Problems in making and keeping friends; aberrant behaviors such as cruelty to people or animals, stealing, etc.

    Not concerned about wrecking others’ lives and dreams. Oblivious or indifferent to the devastation they cause. Does not accept blame themselves, but blames others, even for acts they obviously committed.

    Promiscuous Sexual Behavior/Infidelity
    Promiscuity, child sexual abuse, rape and sexual acting out of all sorts.

    Lack of Realistic Life Plan/Parasitic Lifestyle
    Tends to move around a lot or makes all encompassing promises for the future, poor work ethic but exploits others effectively.

    Criminal or Entrepreneurial Versatility
    Changes their image as needed to avoid prosecution. Changes life story readily.
    Other Related Qualities:

    Contemptuous of those who seek to understand them
    Does not perceive that anything is wrong with them
    Only rarely in difficulty with the law, but seeks out situations where their tyrannical behavior will be tolerated, condoned, or admired
    Conventional appearance
    Goal of enslavement of their victim(s)
    Exercises despotic control over every aspect of the victim’s life
    Has an emotional need to justify their crimes and therefore needs their victim’s affirmation (respect, gratitude and love)
    Ultimate goal is the creation of a willing victim
    Incapable of real human attachment to another
    Unable to feel remorse or guilt
    Extreme narcissism and grandiose
    May state readily that their goal is to rule the world

  493. NOTE

    Goal of enslavement of their victim(s).
    Ultimate goal is the creation of a willing victim.
    Incapable of real human attachment to another.
    May state readily that their goal is to rule the world.


  494. People assume they are “human” because they are in human bodies.

    The human body’s genetic information, (a.k.a. blueprint), which is stored in every cell of the body, uses a double spiral structure to store information using base pairs, (adenine, guanine, cytosine and thymine) which are very similar to the way our computers store information.

    Data integrity is ensured by the double strand which means the genetic blueprint is stored redundantly. All of the cells of the body, use this information as a “program” to define at any given time, what the cell should be doing (split, grow, die etc) .

    This is way too structured and logical, to be created by “mere chance”. The bodies have been engineered.

  495. And the drones have been engineered. The reason why, they violate your reality at every turn, and you can not get them to pose and resolve problems of a theta nature, is that they do not have theta capabilities.

    At the end of the day when you do all of the math, what you find is that they DO NOT HAVE THETA CAPABILITIES.

    Your ARCX with them are actually synthetic, there is no being there to ARCX with.

  496. If it does not have theta capabilities, it is not a thetan.

  497. You can get into figure about it, “could this person be alive independently of blah blah… Could I perceive this independently of blah blah blah..”.

    But then you are into a figure figure and tripping.

    What you see is there. And your opinion about it, can have value. Absolute value. And independent or dependent are attitudes. And all you can imagine about it’s possibilities, are imaginings.

    It is just there. And that in itself, is an absolute.

  498. Because truth, is an absolute.

  499. Very good comment, George. Well done on how you’ve evolved, and I think it’s awesome that you’ve decided to help Hubbard. More power to you!

    Much metta,

  500. On the “reason”. Reason is relative. That is why every time you move into a new position at work, a new relationship, a new neighborhood, a new culture, planet, universe or galaxy, you do a memory swipe and start all over to find out what is wanted and needed to survive. And there, you start to build your “reason”. So, reason is relative.

    Love, conquers hate. And is a continuous theta capability that can move mountains, people, purpose, and just about anything else. So, any particle that someone sends to you, that is sent on the carrier wave of love and good will, has eternal and magical value. It is not a relative thing, it is a constant. So, if someone offers you an opinion, and it is based on a current knowledge that is valuable at the time, and it is carried by love, it is relevant and has value. An opinion is as relevant as it adds value, meaning, quality, understanding and purpose to your life. And it will only be valuable in those measures, if it is backed by good will.

  501. And once you know what they are, and what they are doing, you can disconnect from the penile system.

  502. Penal system. Freudian slip. Laughter!

  503. And if you disconnect from the penal system, you go off their radar. And the world is at your command. And the drones fall under your command as well.

  504. In that, they are very easy to steer away from you.

  505. The purpose of a drone:  A Brief History of Drones
    With the invention of drones, we crossed into a new frontier: killing that’s risk-free, remote, and detached from human cues.

  506. C’mon Oracle – You’re being too nice. How about a Zombie metaphor? I’ve studied ” The Zombie Survival Guide” by Max Brooks, so I’m well prepared for those types. Programmed drones are child’s play. They don’t want to eat you.

    From the Top Ten Lessons:

    1) Organize before they rise!
    2) They feel no fear, why should you?
    3) Use your head: cut off theirs.
    4) Blades don’t need reloading.
    5) Ideal protection = tight clothes, short hair.

  507. Path of Buddha

    You are then in fullness of a great big heart and that is very good indeed.
    You deserve a transient void of peace and tranquility brought to you by the devas.

  508. Mark C. Rathbun


  509. “It has to do with there are no clears or ot’s.” You must have really been taken with the Dianetics Book. Laughter!

  510. George Layton

    On this topic it’s closer to Oracle+Oracle+Oracle

  511. 1. Before you say there are no clears or OT’s, you have to be in agreement with everything published in the Cof S about everyone having a reactive mind, and everyone needing a certificate before they are recognized as an OT. Fkn hysterical!!

    You run along and tell Mitt Romney he isn’t clear or OT O.K.?
    You run along and tell 50 Cents and Aretha they are not operating spiritually, all righty then? If you cross paths with Ghandi , you mention the fact that freed a nation was an accident.

    You are seriously , seriously, in some situation where you believe everything and nothing at the same time.

    One Viking took over Paris and conquered the world starting with England. His heirs still sit in the British throne. Too bad he didn’t have access to the Dianetics book, he might have become an operating thetan! On the fkn floor!

    Here is what you are doing:

    1.O.K., I believe everything I read in Dianetics. Everyone has a reactive mind.

    2.There are no clears therefore.

    I have no idea what you think an OT is, so I won’t go there. But it doesn’t take Einstein to see that there are spiritual beings and they shift position.

    Before you got in Scientology, did you have a problem with no clears or OT’s?

    2. “Are you saying all these peeps who have everywhere posted their experiences are getting ethics in on the planet?”

    No, I did not drag those names across thos blog or even think of those people. And I am not interested in criticizing and of them or I would have already.

    I mentioned commentators on Tony’s blog.

    But per the definition of whistleblower:

    Noun 1. whistleblower – an informant who exposes wrongdoing within an organization in the hope of stopping it; “the law gives little protection to whistleblowers who feel the public has a right to know what is going on”; “the whistleblower was fired for exposing the conditions in mental hospitals”

    It would seem the purpose would be to put ethics in on the planet. I did not say it was a bad purpose. Did I? None of my business. Go for blood.

  512. Who, or what, would be upset that there are no clear or OT’s? Only a Scientologist.

    What were you before you were a Scientologist? If being a Scientologist isn’t working out for you, go back to what was really doing it for you!

    Since you can’t trust any of the Scientologists, that say they have been cleared, or that they are OT, you shouldn’t be hanging in the crowd think anyway.

  513. Speaking of OTs…let’s have a little fantasy story break in the form of two songs/videos….In the first video a group of kids with natural born “special powahs” are being held in a black budget government center to monitor and study them….they use their “OT powahs” to break free and enjoy their abilities outside of the cold, stuffy institution…

    In this sequel the kids are discovered by the government agents and must have a showdown….

    I still sometimes get goosebumps when I watch the second one. It’s very powerful to me. The ending especially.

  514. True George. And, on the other hand, perhaps there is something to the concept that Consciousness can not perceive anything that ‘it’ is not emitting, at some level of its own being? Mirror mirror on the wall? Meaning, perhaps, there is an Oracle in all of us. Whose voice can only be rightly heard and understood by those that have reached a certain threshold of Conscious Being? I’m not sure. But if I had to choose between imagining Oracle is full of shit, or full of wisdom (absent some holy middle ground), I’d gravitate toward the later….lol.

  515. Go tell Tony Robbins he isn’t clear. And buy one of his books while you are at it.

  516. What you have added to this thread are protest reads about me adding to this thread. I’m here having conversations with people are you are heckling, and heckling, and heckling.

    Was there some other venue you planned to to attend, but found it was sold out?

  517. singanddanceall

    of course I was, who wasn’t by getting involved who read that book.

    When I read that book, I only wanted to go clear and help because I could have the abilities stated in that book.

  518. singanddanceall

    criticism is being a critical thinker, No?

  519. singanddanceall

    your first question. Answer of course. No clears and OT’s.

    your second question. A person who read a book called dianetics which claimed I could become a clear.

  520. More ladies out gas lighting for hobby? It is obvious what you are cultivating. I can blow in the wind, but you will be left sitting in the harvest of it. Embrace the moments.

  521. When you open your mouth and all you can exhale is feces, you really aren’t fit to suck a farmer’s toe clean anymore.

  522. Thanks for the challenge from the gas lighters from ESMB.

  523. Singanddance – I have mixed feelings. OT and Clear are labels people put on themselves or others. They give credence to the idea that they have achieved some level of awareness or existence through scn far above ordinary an attach a label to it. OTVI is a Roman numeral smarter than OTV. Years of introspection would allow one to become more self aware. but claiming specific abilities to be gained is scn BS.

    Some people in or out of scn think that a Mr. or Ms. Hubbard will reincarnate and continue his or her search for Oh-Tea-Ness. Yikes

  524. Path of Buddha

    Very pleased that you posted because we have some unfinished business. You claimed on a previous post that I was in the wrong in evaluating Hubbard on the basis of a picture taken when he was hiding in Queens circa 1972. The picture was posted on Ortega’s blog. Hubbard has long hair and is sitting on a bed.
    First of all, I want to point out that I came very, very close to meeting Hubbard when he was in hiding in Queens. I was new in the mission and I was asked several times to work on a special project – to meet and work for Hubbard. At that time, I was a spit and polished account executive. I ended up in Scientology for 17 years reaching OT VIII on the Freewinds. There is no telling what I would have done had I met Hubbard on that day. Looking back now, I say for God’s sake all the man did was read about 10-20 occult books. So he was going to have me work for him. How about just giving me the list of the 20 books and letting me borrow the ones I could not buy? I could read the books and figure out Scientology by myself. I could have joined the Sea Org. Where would I have ventured? Based on the history of Scientology, I would not have wanted his “doings”. The problem with Hubbard was always that he underestimated intelligence. He perched himself on a 3,000 year old body of data and changed its marketing. You have a right to express what you think and to trash everyone. However, you need facts to back it all up. Hubbard closed the circle and selected only those who would yield to him. Secret Doctrine is dangerous. It is ironic that the US constitution cements religious freedom. So many were in in the same tradition of the secrets that Hubbard devolved.

  525. George Layton

    Yin/Yang, perhaps that is also true of what we say about others. Not only can we not see the point of view if we don’t have a bit of that view within but that what we see in others is reflection within ourselves.

  526. George Layton

    Many of your posts are condemnations and disparagements. The post I am responding to now is a good example of what I said in response to Larry Moore. (if that makes the grade and gets through)

  527. Mark C. Rathbun

    Hypocrisy. Trolling, really.

  528. Seems you can have OT abilities on 1 or 2 of your dynamics, but be NUTS on other dynamics (Hitler etc) . Mitt is spiritual, Mormons do have a system to curb abberation. Artists etc are brilliant but can be degraded too (Rinder and his amazing ser facs are fun to watch). I guess it could be what you bring along from your past.

  529. Dude,
    They wrote the books and BLOGS for MONEY and to alliviate and appease their Ser Facs. For every one of these NCG natterers there are 100K (plus) that Scient/Dia produces fantastic results. If it does not work for you (2 to 20% of the population), why go on and on about your opinion – man up, move on. Most of these guys are Ex SO or born ins, that could not cut it. All of these guys on your list are now OBSESSIVE haters.

  530. Tony Ortega’s Loyalties, Treason, and Re purposing .

    When Monique filed her lawsuit, there was an apparent support for this woman, made public on his blog.

    People with clean purpose towards Monique rallied in support. They were gathered in the pen. There appeared to be a loyal and united support group. And I think, there was.

    When Monique dismissed her representatives in the suit, the climate changed instantly.

    Tony, over a period of months, made it media mayhem to drive the point across and media miles, that Her attorneys has been dismissed injustly, and that Monique was mentally incompetent. And then took it a notch further. The Rathbuns were dirty dealing.

    The some close to 14,000 comments on his blog, and the other press outlets he encouraged in the fair game event, re-purposed people into a witch hunt.

    Never considering that the Rathbuns might have had hopes of obtaining another attorney. Never considering the media slander of she that was declared mentally incompetent and unjust, she that could not be trusted, would close the door to them being able to procure other representation, or get a fair hearing in a jury trial.

    Tony fair gamed her, and made sure she could not get another stand on this, all the while doing puff pieces on Ray Jeffries.

    He re purposed people into witch hunters, and Ray Jeffries fans. And buried Monique. Ensuring public opinion of her was at an all time low for anyone caring to Google her name (which any juror would be inclined to do).

    Then the back up crew at ESMB, spread her home contact information all over the Internet, setting her, her family and child up as target.

    I do not believe this was all by accident. There was a PURPOSE behind all of it.

    Loyalties (support) were shifted to Tony and his brutal retaliation tactics because Ray Jeffires was moved off the stage.

    And potential legal routes that could have been taken, if Monique had to bypass her former representation, were closed off.

    Either by close conspiracies, loose cannons, people that can’t think for themselves. people who’s loyalties are easily shifted, Blogger needing attention, or plain fucking stupidity.

    Clearly, the purpose was not to keep the doors open towards any successful litigation. That door was slammed shut as soon as Monique removed the professionals that has pledge to represent her.

    Clearly, the purpose was not to support Monique. But rather, a witch hunt and the Ray Jeffies fan club.

    I personally do not think it is possible to re purpose people, who know and say what their purpose is, and put their loyalties behind their purposes.

    I can say, when your only responsibility is to make comments, chances are you have a long history of being wobbly anyway, and why you aren’t working in Congress today.

    Tony professes to be unbiased (no loyalties). Obviously, this is a blatant lie.

    He drew people to see Ray Jeffries as a Martyr. And Monique and her husband as train wrecked criminals taking money under the table.

    And there was a PURPOSE behind that, and a loyalty behind that. Because there was NOTHING unbiased about his coverage. And how he re purposed people reading his blog.

    Back to the beginning, there was support for Monique. Some said.

    It is clear to me now that this was a pretense or a banner to fly under, towards some other agenda.

    Because the “good will”, was churned into ill will and distrust, under Tony’s purposes and allegiances. And they were there. And the treason was thick. Even with regards professional journalism, because his blog turned into the national inquirer.

    And the big crime Tony asserted over and over and over, was that Monique took money under the table and was disloyal.

    The TREASON is so thick in this arena, I don’t think the majority of this lot could join any group or activity, and make anything decent come of it,a marriage, love affair, career, or personal relationship.

    This is a copy of the journalists code of ethics. Tony’s treason bleeds all through it.


    Members of the Society of Professional Journalists believe that public enlightenment is the forerunner of justice and the foundation of democracy. Ethical journalism strives to ensure the free exchange of information that is accurate, fair and thorough. An ethical journalist acts with integrity.

    The Society declares these four principles as the foundation of ethical journalism and encourages their use in its practice by all people in all media.

    Seek Truth and
    Report It

    Ethical journalism should be accurate and fair. Journalists should be honest and courageous in gathering, reporting and interpreting information.

    Journalists should:

    – Take responsibility for the accuracy of their work. Verify information before releasing it. Use original sources whenever possible.

    – Remember that neither speed nor format excuses inaccuracy.

    – Provide context. Take special care not to misrepresent or oversimplify in promoting, previewing or summarizing a story.

    – Gather, update and correct information throughout the life of a news story.

    – Be cautious when making promises, but keep the promises they make.

    – Identify sources clearly. The public is entitled to as much information as possible to judge the reliability and motivations of sources.

    – Consider sources’ motives before promising anonymity. Reserve anonymity for sources who may face danger, retribution or other harm, and have information that cannot be obtained elsewhere. Explain why anonymity was granted.

    – Diligently seek subjects of news coverage to allow them to respond to criticism or allegations of wrongdoing.

    – Avoid undercover or other surreptitious methods of gathering information unless traditional, open methods will not yield information vital to the public.

    – Be vigilant and courageous about holding those with power accountable. Give voice to the voiceless.

    – Support the open and civil exchange of views, even views they find repugnant.

    – Recognize a special obligation to serve as watchdogs over public affairs and government. Seek to ensure that the public’s business is conducted in the open, and that public records are open to all.

    – Provide access to source material when it is relevant and appropriate.

    – Boldly tell the story of the diversity and magnitude of the human experience. Seek sources whose voices we seldom hear.

    – Avoid stereotyping. Journalists should examine the ways their values and experiences may shape their reporting.

    – Label advocacy and commentary.

    – Never deliberately distort facts or context, including visual information. Clearly label illustrations and re-enactments.

    – Never plagiarize. Always attribute.
    Minimize Harm

    Ethical journalism treats sources, subjects, colleagues and members of the public as human beings deserving of respect.

    Journalists should:

    – Balance the public’s need for information against potential harm or discomfort. Pursuit of the news is not a license for arrogance or undue intrusiveness.

    – Show compassion for those who may be affected by news coverage. Use heightened sensitivity when dealing with juveniles, victims of sex crimes, and sources or subjects who are inexperienced or unable to give consent. Consider cultural differences in approach and treatment.

    – Recognize that legal access to information differs from an ethical justification to publish or broadcast.

    – Realize that private people have a greater right to control information about themselves than public figures and others who seek power, influence or attention. Weigh the consequences of publishing or broadcasting personal information.

    – Avoid pandering to lurid curiosity, even if others do.

    – Balance a suspect’s right to a fair trial with the public’s right to know. Consider the implications of identifying criminal suspects before they face legal charges.

    – Consider the long-term implications of the extended reach and permanence of publication. Provide updated and more complete information as appropriate.
    Act Independently

    The highest and primary obligation of ethical journalism is to serve the public.

    Journalists should:

    – Avoid conflicts of interest, real or perceived. Disclose unavoidable conflicts.

    – Refuse gifts, favors, fees, free travel and special treatment, and avoid political and other outside activities that may compromise integrity or impartiality, or may damage credibility.

    – Be wary of sources offering information for favors or money; do not pay for access to news. Identify content provided by outside sources, whether paid or not.

    – Deny favored treatment to advertisers, donors or any other special interests, and resist internal and external pressure to influence coverage.

    – Distinguish news from advertising and shun hybrids that blur the lines between the two. Prominently label sponsored content.
    Be Accountable and Transparent

    Ethical journalism means taking responsibility for one’s work and explaining one’s decisions to the public.

    Journalists should:

    – Explain ethical choices and processes to audiences. Encourage a civil dialogue with the public about journalistic practices, coverage and news content.

    – Respond quickly to questions about accuracy, clarity and fairness.

    – Acknowledge mistakes and correct them promptly and prominently. Explain corrections and clarifications carefully and clearly.

    – Expose unethical conduct in journalism, including within their organizations.

    – Abide by the same high standards they expect of others.

    He violates this code of ethics consistently while claiming to be putting ethics in on the planet. He had not been loyal to his own professional code of ethics.

    Now, at the end of the day, thanks to Tony Ortega and his justice chiefs, and Tony Ortega’s Messenger’s Org, and hidden loyalties and blatant treason:

    1. There is no law suit.

    2. There will be no lawsuit.

    3. Monique was set up for a huge financial loss.

    4. The Church of Scientology was set up for a win.

    5. There is a Ray Jeffries fan club.

    6. There is a Tony Ortega fan club.

    Everyone was set up for a loss, but Tony.

    Why? He has a loyal crew.

  531. That are willing to wallow in treason.

  532. Just like some other cults you may have heard of.

  533. And why wouldn’t people who were able to think with and live with Hubbard’s “Justice Codes”, which forbid you from thinking with the fourth dynamic at all, when adding the greatest good for the greatest number, all penalties and no rewards under the justice section, not be able to think with Tony’s means and methods?

    And at the end of the day you have to realize, there are people floating around all over the place, who are constantly re purposed all over the place, by other people who offer to think for them.

    What kind of person wants to inherit this kind of tribe? And why does this tribe viciously attack people who encourage them to think for themselves?

    Marty doesn’t have any glue struck tribe, because everyone that came on here as part of support group, went off and began to think for themselves. And that is exactly what he insisted they do.

  534. So, when Monique dropped her lawsuit, no, she did not get on the Internet to tell people what to think.

    After all, she filed a paper in court that already explained it.

    It seems people wanted her to tell her what to think about the paper she filed in court, explaining. Who knew?

    So Tony stepped up and did the thinking for everyone.

    Never pointing out to anyone, that if Monique did not add more to the story, or make formal complaints, it could harm future opportunities.

    The truth is some people can not think for themselves. And if you refuse to think for them, you have left them out to hang. And you have, until someone comes along and offers to think for them, and re purpose them to wards their owns.

  535. I am a Never Been In Scientology and Proud of It!

    HOWEVER, Scientology is NOT the only cult in the world. I was in Lifespring. It was/is a cult. People were abused, some poor souls even died.

    I am part of the so called cyber cult. I am part of this because I want to stop the spread of the vicious lies that Scientology STILL spreads all over the world. I want to do whatever I can to make sure that those still-in leave, and those still-out never go in.

    I am not addicted, I do NOT spend my life on The Bunker. My life is full with family, work, art and kitties. My mother passed away this week and we sent her out of the world with more love that I ever thought possible.

    The petty fights on this blog site are sad to see when there is so much else in the world to be a part of. But I value my time spent typing away on the anti-Scientology blogs. It is worthwhile, it is at times illuminating, I have made a friend, and I have made a difference.

    Love conquers all.

  536. And who is going to to get or use valuable resources to sue Tony Ortega? He is the only person in this arena with nothing to lose.

  537. So, are you here to put ethics in the blog?

  538. I am of the opinion ‘paradox’ is an inherent part and or parcel of Consciousness (at the human level) which paradox shows up in this thread quite nicely. For example, while brevity is evidence of wit, understanding demands elaboration. Which is why I imagine Oracle breaks up the elaboration of her prose, into bite size bits. Lol. Being a Spiritual and or psychological wedding of sorts. So to speak.

    And another (paradox): while condemnations and disparagements tend to fall on the negative emotional-side of being (human), in their absence Genghis Kang may still be ruling not only the Mongol Empire, but indeed, the entire world, lol. Or worse yet, Hillary Clinton or Donald Trump may be the next President of the USA. Lol.

    When its all been said and done I imagine Oracle is a Spiritual Whistleblower (in the world) of sorts, and whether agreeable or disagreeable, deserves the same type of intellectually guarded attention and emotionally offered respect that all Whistleblowers are afforded. Which I can say with conviction for the simple reason I have no horse in the race (so to speak).

  539. Sorry, I meant, are you here to put ethics in on the blog? Because you do not post condemnations and disparagements?

  540. “The truth is some people can not think for themselves. And if you refuse to think for them, you have left them out to hang. And you have, until someone comes along and offers to think for them, and re purpose them to wards their owns.”

    Wow. At risk of being accused of diverting attention from the essence of this thread may I ask a question or two about your understanding beneath your statement above? Or, do you have a website or blog where such questions can be entertained?

    “So Tony stepped up and did the thinking for everyone.”

    Sounds like Hubbard did the same thing. Or at least something similar (though perhaps with better intentions?).

  541. Chee Chalker

    Translation: Oracle can dish $hit out, but she can’t take it being dished back onto her plate.

  542. Dang Larry, You can write a good tale! I was picturing it! If I had been there, you know I would have given you a standing ovation.

    Thank you for your time, curiosity, and hope. XXOO T.O.

  543. Someone ran a can have you. I guess it was the book.

    But someone already ran a can’t have on you before that, if you thought you couldn’t have those abilities anyway.

    And Someone ran a can’t have on you when you were convinced there are no clears or OTs.

    And now you run that can’t have on others.

    There is a book you may find interesting that was written in the 1940’s by a man named Claude Bristol. He even has a part in the book about psychometry. A test you can do on your kitchen table. Someone read the book on Youtube so you don’t even need to buy it.

  544. If it is so great and wonderful and perfect over there, why are you over here?

    If it is is great and wonderful, why is that people there born into it “could not cut it?”

    Ex SO, you say as a degrade. And where you are coming from, it is better to have not served at all, than toy have dedicated 30 years and then left.

    Here is a video of top Sea Org Managers. Do you mean to tell me your are here peddling this kind of beingness and doingness?

    Here are some of your top of the bridge case gain results:

    Then you pop here, in an “apparent” role as cheerleader, when your actual purpose is to invalidate and enturbulate.

    And it is people just like you, and the above, that create this ARCXen field for the Scientology Culture. And make it possible for the discontent to foment. People just like you. The “case gainers”. The ones that could “cut it”. And you are out peddleing your repelling beingness and ill will.

    People do not want to be like the people above, and they do not want to be like YOU. The beingness is not selling.

    OSA has created more ill will for the culture of Scientologists than this blog ever did or will. And you are part of the crew they use to do it.

    Fk you, you little “case gainer”. Try learning one of the ten commandments, “Treat others as you would wish to be treated yourself”.

    And stop ser facing all over the Internet. Grade 2 did nothing for you.

  545. “Sounds like Hubbard did the same thing. Or at least something similar (though perhaps with better intentions?).”

    Getting Fat and Rich and Control people.

  546. My mother bought me this film back in a second hand store last week. You can test me on all that I say by the way.

    I was camping with my parents in Apeldoorn.

    I had sold a DVD player with this epic film in it, stupid me.

    But I have it back thanks to my mother:

  547. Unicef Ambassadors are OT’s

    Fantasy my dear friend does not put food into the mouths of children.

  548. That will be good for his Bank Account no doubt,

    This onley shows that if you can suck in enough poeple into your fantasy world you can make alot of money.

  549. Go and”love yourself”

  550. Donald Trump is the prime example of a Big Being making Space for himself and “Causing”great things acording to Scientology doctrine.

  551. Hi Uncle B2N, It’s me, little Davey. Shelly’s ten year old son. I ran away from the base and have been posting under “The Oracle”.

  552. Repetitive above. Is this your misery dump?

  553. Not a critique Oracle but simply an observation. In reading this entry, I could be very wrong but I get the impression you don’t give Mr. And Mrs. Rathbun much credit for their strength and fortitude if you believe they have aquieced all of their power to Mr. Ortega. As grown adults, making decisions for the good of their family and future, they hold the cards to their own destiny. I’m glad they have your support but perhaps it may be best to allow the Rathbuns to speak for themselves when and if they decide that’s in their best interest. This is solely my personal opinion as I read and interpreted (or tried to interpret) your post above.

  554. singanddanceall

    Hi Richard,

    I believe Hubbard put the labels of clear & OT on people, and the abilities to be gained, one’s reference on that is the chart called the Bridge to Total Freedom and even the The Chart of Human Evaluation. Those charts are Hubbard evaluation for you and really has nothing to do with self awareness. He told one what to think.

    As far as your last sentence, didn’t Hubbard tell Sarge he failed and wasn’t coming back?

    What’s that Sea Org motto, oh yes, it is We Come Back.

    Seems to me Hubbard is not a Sea Org member, as he stated he ain’t coming back.

  555. singanddanceall

    Hi NTY,

    You realize a couple of the books I mentioned are by Mark Rathbun?

    I was once so gung ho about sientology and dianetics and Hubbard. Man, oh man, I never thought in a million years I would become a critical thinker of scientolgy, hubbard and dianetics. A critic. I was involved for 26 years.

    Now that I’m on the outside, why, after reading all of the coming out stories on this here blog by Marty, from it’s inception, lots of stories and doing tons more research reading all the blogs and books, different viewpoints everywhere to be found and examine, think with, learn, conclude. Why I have come to the conclusion that the only reason you can be upbraided for is no results. And the no results are No clears or OT’s, even Hubbard admitted he failed and wasn’t coming back.

    I used to believe, as hubbard said, that 2 1/2 % of the population are SP’s towards scientology, and 18% are PTS.

    I now believe that is a sleight of words by Hubbard, or the opposite, In that I mean 2 1/2% of the population do not fall for Hubbard’s dianetics and scientology, and 18% are in doubt. But, the 2 1/2% that really fall for Hubbards words become fanatics, at all cost of their lives and major decisions in their lives.

    Thus is the power of power of marketing and PR and rhetoric.

  556. Larry, I don’t think this diverts from the thread at all. It is about cults as well. That is what a cult leader does, he thinks for other people. But Hubbard did at the same time, help people think for themselves. Up to a point. I guess thinking for yourself was kind of hard against the policies. As some of the policies, made thinking for yourself a crime. Laughter! I have seen people get involved with Scientology and go up the bridge both sides and think for themselves. But they were never of staff. The reason X S.O. are so “bad” in the eyes of Sea Org, is because they decided one day, they wanted to think for themselves. The reason “public” are regarded as trash in that arena, buy the Sea Org, is that they still think for themselves to a large degree. This is regarded as “holding out”. Tony Ortega is just as ruthless as Hubbard and Miscavige. And I can tell you from personal experience if you go up against Tony’s think, you are expelled from his blog. He has his own KTW policies. Keeping Tony Working. And he only allows people to post there, who let him think for them.

  557. George Layton

    Screw the “put ethics in” bullshit. I’m saying the statements you have made here about others, in the way you have written them, show that many are true about you. Marty made it concise just above; Hypocrisy.
    Albeit he said it about me (and yes, each time I spot hypocrisy it turns around and points at me) , it’s true of you as well as Marty, but neither you or him are going to admit it because of vanity. That is one of the EP’s of scientology. Vanity enhancement. You’re right, they’re wrong period. You have proven it to your self over and over again living your life. Introspection gets turned inside out by scientology and you come to the awareness of the wrong thinking of others and it flows out from there. It never looks back inside to reveal what you have had to become to get to that point of view. Vanity begins to run the mind and constantly reaffirms its actions.

  558. I’ve been a Scientology watcher for a few years now. I wasn’t around for when Marty was fighting against the church with this blog and only been reading Tony Ortegas blog for maybe 3 years. Tony’s blog used to be about breaking apart Scientology, now its about scandal. The tone over there changed somewhere around the time he became editor of theliptv, which doesn’t do as many Scientology pieces now it seems, and when his book came out and he did that book tour. Tony Ortega is the Anti Scientology celebrity. Anytime anything happens Tony is who they go to. This is his money maker and scandal brings more clicks and readers than breaking down books. I still enjoy that blog but it’s too melodramatic for me sometimes. As for Marty I think the purpose of the lawsuit was to get the squirrel busters to leave him alone. Since he states he doesn’t practice independent Scientology anymore, the squirrel busters mission is accomplished i guess. I think now Marty is fighting to get the anti Scientology people to leave him alone. I believe Marty ultimately wants to move on and close that chapter of his live. I could be wrong but that’s my read on the situation.

  559. I’m picking up what you are putting down. I saw this a few posts up as clear as day. how hard it can be to try and explain a concept to people who have no real chance at grasping. even though it is spoken in plain language. like being on a different vantage point.

    a struggle that is handled well, given the circumstance.

    but that’s just like my opinion man.

  560. Dale Arthur

    Larry, I can see that you are trying to inject some new ideas into the stream of consciousness that has become this blog, newly named “QED” and authored by the Oracle.

  561. It seems to me she is taking it perfectly well. You however sound petulant that she is not going into a contrite agreement with those criticising her.

  562. There have been many shootings at schools in the USA, in which children have been killed. Does this mean there is a “War on Children”?

  563. I only speak for myself. I’m not a mouthpiece for anyone. Let’s get that item off the table right now.

  564. Laughter!

  565. If my repetition caused you misery. Yes.

  566. And what do you think “a joke” is? What do you think jokes convey?

  567. Hi Siganddance – By chance I read your excellent comments on Alonzo’s blog yesterday. We are on the same page. Hubbard put names, labels and abilities on the chart and people adopted them as status. Some still do.

    Evaluation Alert! (lol) I think that “No Clears, No OTs” comes across as sort of a mantra which irritates some people, since most people, I think, already know that as regards to Tubbs definitions.

    It seems that some people are placing other definitions or implications on “Clear” and “OT” such as “Ghandi was a Clear” or “So and so was certainly OT” meaning he or she had superior abilities. There is a mish mash of definitions going on, I think.

    I read your comment below and see you’ve done a lot of research. I just dismissed scn as “We know everything about everything. We’re right and everybody else is wrong.” In other words, I was in a cult.

    The Hubbard reincarnation mention was an oblique reference to Path of Buddha saying he was going to “help Hubbard” and Miraldi went along with it. It was probably figurative, but if the conversation continued, I was going to jump in with “How, when, and where!?” – laughter

  568. I am a never been in the KKK and proud of it! I am anti KKK and never miss the opportunity to explain to one of them, when they cross my path on the Internet, what a discredit, shame, and embarrassment they are to the white race.

    On the other hand, I am not parked in Birmingham in charge of a KKK victims group. Why would I be?

    I have never made a post with you in mind, I can assure you.

    I am baffled, at how two women running ESMB, and a journalist , all claiming they are never ins, have become chair people for the joint loss committee of disappointed former Scientologists. All of whom were set up for losses and have every right to be angry about it.

    As far as I know, Tony Ortega never spent a dime in Scientology or spent a minute of his life in one of those buildings. He is not there on the same terms as anyone else. In fact, he has only profited form their misery.

    The ones on ESMB, I think are lying about never been in. I think they are still in, and working for OSA. Their main targets are Independents.

  569. Scientology Floggers are not OSA’s top of the Enemy List.

    Rabid Anti Scientology talking heads are not OSA’s largest threat by any stretch, because they rarely effect current membership. Maybe one or two dribble away from the Church because of these. And they usually had one foot out the door already.

    Current membership does not flock to anti Scientology blogs or web sites, to have their identity invalidated. They avoid them like the plague. The circus arenas created for the noisy anti’s are for entertainment for spectators.

    OSA’s threats come from people walking a middle path, and encouraging people to think for themselves, and putting forth valuable information for the thinking man.

    This is why, ESMB is practically a dedicated anti Marty site.

    And since Tony Ortega’s blog has become an anti Marty site, this has been a boost for OSA.

  570. The way OSA blew the competition off of ESMB was two fold. They set one plant up in there to mock up witch hunts and hate threads against any influential leaving the Church.

    They set up another plant to start a thought that ex’s need to be anti’s. So all the Independents or middle path people that could possibly bridge people away from the Church were banged off. If they did not exit on their own, a fair game thread was set up to target them, when they reacted or protested, they would get banned.

    It was flipped into a total Scientology flogging site to repel people possibly looking to leave the Church.

    The thing is, both of the efforts were supported by sadistic people needing a witch hunt and a target. OSA played on their own sadism and/or need for blood shed, to unmock them and their support.

    Most (not all) of the people left are the hate mongers that unwittingly backed the OSA plans to fold the forum. It is managed and monitored by twp people claiming they were never in, who are still in.

  571. I think you got it Al, about ESMB. I recently read the Idenics thread over there. It is very long, but illustrates quite well the curve ESMB took, from inception to demise. Emma closed that thread because in her words, it had been completely “trashed” by a couple of very active agents.

  572. It did. Your repetitious invective borders on hatred, which I don’t come here to read. Simple solution – skip over your comments. Peace

  573. T.O., That’s about how it looked to me when I recently read the Idenics thread on ESMB, as I mentioned to Alanzo in a recent comment. That was a very long informative thread that Emma finally closed because in her words, It had been completely “trashed” by a couple of agents. I hadn’t visited ESMB in several years. This was an eye-opening experience.

  574. singanddanceall

    Hi Path of Buddha,

    I don’t recall evaluating hubbard based on a picture. I only recall telling you about the Hienlein letters between Hubbard & Heinlien, and between Campbell & Heinlien.

    I’m more than willing to communicate. Can you you tell me what you claim I said, just to keep the record straight.

    I was involved for 26 years. And I know many people who have made it up to OT8 and done all the L’s. Why I married one.

  575. singanddanceall

    of course you have proof of this?

  576. Thank you for some reason.

  577. Interesting to note though, that you are a, “every man for himself” person.

  578. Yes I remember that thread from its early days.

    In the early days there, Emma had an Idenics session that she told me was 10 times better than anything she’d ever done in Scientology. She said it really helped her. She wanted me to get an idenics session, too.

    From my observation, Emma changed dramatically after the police raided her home, confiscated her computers, and accused her of being a member of Anonymous in around 2011.

    The pressure from that obvious Fair Game Op against her fully embittered and radicalized her against any measured or reasonable stance on anything. She went to WAR like no one I have ever seen against Scientology and against anyone and everyone who did not support her 1000%.

    There was no more questioning, no more discussion, and especially no more criticism of ESMB. She made ESMB her personal fortress with a core group of flying monkeys to do her bidding.

    If Scientology was trying to “shudder her into silence” by fairgaming her – just like everyone else I know who has been fairgamed, including myself, it had the exact opposite effect.

    Emma became radicalized after that, and WAR became her constant operating basis.

    ESMB became very bad for people leaving the Church after that. It became a place where you either toed the line or you got the BANHAMMER!

    Truly. It was Beyond Thunderdome.


  579. “This is why, ESMB is practically a dedicated anti Marty site. And since Tony Ortega’s blog has become an anti Marty site, this is a boost for OSA.”

    While I have neither the time nor inclination, I challenge you to actually break down those sites % wise to back up this claim. I read daily and Mr. Rathbun is seldom a topic.

  580. Thanks Al[, for that bit of history! Not ever being much of a participant at ESMB, I didn’t know about all that. Oddly enough, after I posted to you, I went over there to look at that thread again, and I couldn’t find it!

  581. There are over 250 anti Marty threads on that site. And I am not going to post the links here. To say that Mr. Rathbun is seldom a topic against the backdrop of those threads means ,…….. damned if I know what it means to tell you the truth. You didn’t have the time nor inclination?

  582. Go to the beginning of time and move forward on that forum.

  583. And the only person that has ever said, ” they have aquieced all of their power to Mr. Ortega” is you.

  584. I have trouble reading Ortega’s site because of the format. It’s Disqus, and if I forget and try to post a comment, it says I have to make an account, which I don’t want to do. I have too many internet accounts already, I don’t need another. And when I want to read the posts, I have three choices as a non-member, sort by “newest”, “oldest” or “best”. Sometimes a comment caught my eye in the morning, but by afternoon I can’t find it again, I scroll down page after page, and still can’t seem to locate it. “Best” posts are out of order, so I have a hard time following the conversation. A bit too much idle chitchat for my tastes too. For esmb, I never really got into that site either, because again, must make an account to post (don’t want to) and it seems like everyone quotes the original post in their reply, which adds tons to their comment, and I find myself saying, wait, didn’t I already read this? Yes, I did. ha, the internet should be tailored to *my* likes only! (lol, just kidding in case it’s not clear). Also I apologize if I have offended anyone by this post. This is totally my issue with formatting, I understand this. I’m not trying to insult or annoy anyone.

  585. I hate grown adults that bully children, or profit off of children’s misery. Children are a trust, to this civilization. A civilization you are a part of. No, I can’t pretend it is alright with me. It is not alright with me at all.

    I don’t pretend gaslighting and toying with people’s sanity is alright. I watched that happen to someone on Tony’s forum and I guess it didn’t bother anyone else.

    I am not them. They do not have to live my future for me. But it is on us to make this a safe world for children. Both of the above acts make this Earth unsafe for children. This Earth is a trust. Not a sponge or a toilet.

    I can hate an act, and not hate the person.

    If I do speak out with protest about these things, I contribute to them.

    I have to live myself, not you.

  586. I meant, if I do NOT speak out with protest, I contribute to them. Silence is consent.

  587. I probably think this post is about me.

  588. Just ask any hooker.

  589. And I think you probably already know it. The line between lives is very thin. In 48 hours you can be parked in a swaddling bundle. And so can I. Maybe this world is tolerable as is, for you now as an adult. But you will live in this world again as a child. And so will I. How tolerable is this current world, to you as an infant? Or a child? Because those conditions are always, days away from you.

  590. Pingback: Jehovah’s Witnesses Circuit Assembly and a Pillar to freedom | Belgian Biblestudents - Belgische Bijbelstudenten

Leave a Reply

Fill in your details below or click an icon to log in: Logo

You are commenting using your account. Log Out /  Change )

Twitter picture

You are commenting using your Twitter account. Log Out /  Change )

Facebook photo

You are commenting using your Facebook account. Log Out /  Change )

Connecting to %s