Differentiating on Cruise, Miscavige and Scientology

I was interviewed by a very intelligent syndicated radio show host today named Michael Smerconish.   We wound up doing a little differentiating that might be of interest to you all.  You can tune in at the following link:

Interview with Michael Smerconish. 

103 responses to “Differentiating on Cruise, Miscavige and Scientology

  1. Fantastic interview!

  2. HaHa – the abnormal man grip! 😉
    Love the interview, Marty. Just great. Thank you for that.

  3. Excellent interview, Marty. I love all this exposure in the media. The world is learning that the safe place for those who would like to do Scientology is in the independent field. Good job!

  4. Marty,
    Well said. It communicated clearly and politely the current situation and basic tenets.
    I can only imagine the tone level of an OSA staff member if they were allowed to respond.

    David Lingenfelter

  5. Marty, This was a great interview. Smoothly presented. Clarified the WIDE difference between practice of Scientology principles within the Church, and outside. Loved it that the commentator gave the analogy of Martin Luther and the reformation. Really excellent. You came across as cool, calm, collected plus the integrity factor clearly presented = unquestionable honoring the trust and sanctity of privileged information divulged during counseling.

    People WANT to know, and shows like this interview will educate people without the super-hype frenzy of media chasing down tidbits. Your book and blog will be linked by many to follow down more information. Thanks for keeping on shining the light.

  6. Marty, first congratulations on exposing the organizational evils of the Church of Scientology. You are obviously brave. I actually and viscerally disliked you upon viewing the BBC documentary (Still believe that Tommy Davis is pure evil.) My question is, what about the theory/common view that Scientology practices brainwash people through the process of auditing? I’ve seen some videos where people are made to repeat, repeat, repeat until they believe what they say, and in some cases it does appear to be brainwashing. Eg look at the door and tell me what you see, look at the door, touch the door ad nauseum. Is this what the squirrel contingent does? How is auditing in a squirrel environment different than auditing in the COS?

  7. Great job! They loved you! Just posted on FB.

  8. p.s you can check my fb page and see that I’m against the COS… mainly for their policies of disconnection and harassment. I get that the tech works for some (been on clambake.org where they have a whole squirrel community) but how do you rationalize the sci-fi part (Xenu, Space Planes, volcanoes)
    … you didn’t actually give a full answer on this broadcast.

  9. Really great interview Marty. Michael Smerconish was really interested as was his producer and was willing to let you speak rather than cutting communication. I hate shows where the host tries to be the star and doesn’t let his guest speak. He fills in for Chris Matthews on Hardball on MSNBC from time to time.

  10. martyrathbun09

    I do in my recently released book ‘What Is Wrong With Scientology?’, available at Amazon books.

  11. The truth, the whole truth (or at least as much as you had time for) and nothing but the truth. Well done, Marty.

    He was pretty astute. Seems like a stand up guy.

    Compare that to …”every square inch of his body” babes blathering and it’s pretty obvious who’s winning the PR campaign.

    It’s just so surreal how they can continue with their lies and expect anything in return but ridicule and disbelief.

    Well done again Marty.


    PS: Your book is doing a marvelous job of helping newly out folks with their doubt formulas. It’s a definite hit.

  12. martyrathbun09

    All covered in my book ‘What Is Wrong With Scientology’, available at Amazon books.

  13. threefeetback

    So where does Tom go from here? Likely scenarios?

  14. Good interview

  15. Excellent interview. Loved that the producer wanted you to stay for 3 hours 🙂

    Also, appreciate your comment that Tom at this point needed no pressure from dm to fold — puts to rest all the various speculation and “hope” that Tom is going to wake up.

    We can now add — it sucks to be TC


  16. What an excellent interview! Nicely done Marty. One of the best short-hand descriptions of auditing I have ever heard uttered. Brilliant.

  17. eileenclark101

    Ditto what O.O. said better than I could have, but thought the same.

  18. Keeps his mouth shut and makes another movie.

  19. Jean-François Genest

    He goes home.

  20. Marty, terrific interview. You are genuine and explain things very clearly!

  21. Jean-François Genest

    Very nice interview. Thank you for repeating the message of DIFFERENTIATION between Scientology itself and the Hcruhc (reverse “Church”), and for mentioning that people can get Scientology in the Independent field. Θ

  22. Jean-François Genest

    Sue, your question(s) are valid.
    However, it will take too long to answer in a reply of a blog comment. Please read the answers in Marty’s book. It is at such a low price, the price of a combo-meal at a shopping mall’s food court. Get the facts, not the hearsay.
    → People don’t repeat until they “believe”. Auditing is the total opposite of “brainwashing”. A person becomes MORE aware, more in self-control and more able with PROPER auditing.

  23. one of those who see

    Wow Marty! Loved the interview. You were wonderful!!! They were also fascinated with you and the subject. I am confident that we will succeed with the differentiation of Scientology and The Church. Well done.
    I am also reading your book. Another Wow! Obviously, you wrote it for me. LOL After reading Chapter four, I am so excited about auditing in the Independent Field. Auditing-where you actually get AUDITING!! My last time in a higher org, I never did get in session. Attention was put on the physical small outpoints. It was like the Church was teaming up with Mest rather than with ME – the Thetan!
    With chapter five on Objectives. I felt that my Objectives completion from years ago got validated. At one point, the end phenomena got rehabbed and i saw my Auditor clear as a bell and I was full of ARC.

    Thank you for all you do!

  24. one of those who see

    I also wanted to mention that it is a huge deal that you refuse to make public any thing from Tom’s Auditing. This is huge. This is very respected by the public and in the end will win the day.

  25. I’ve found your blog recently and am still reading it. The world is full of wonders, indeed! I can’t find much about Scientology though (which is like Zen Buddhism? Oh, how so?), instead, you’re writing about those crazy people who disconnect themselves from the world.
    The question is – would you have stayed in that crazy Org if Miscavige hadn’t sent you to their prison in 2004? If you hadn’t fallen out with that dude, would you still be there?
    Anyway, I like your blog. And wish you all the best!

  26. Link Raymond

    I totally agree. I replied here as it reminded that I have yet to make the acquaintance of my friend’s daughter (Amy) and get reacquainted with her husband (Matt) who I used to chew fat with at the Hacienda back when he was the Treas Sec FSO. My friend and I et al were at the recent party at Andy Porter’s (another deposed top producer) — I saw that she still thinks I’m a twit for being under-the-radar but it appears that my situation will soon allow me to come out from under. Stand by Bonnie.

    What was really cool about this interview is that Smerconish (who I see a lot on MSNBC) and his producer were both blown away by Marty and both of them said they want more. Go Marty!!! Let the light shine on thee.

  27. dolphin.jump

    Love the interview! Like the radio folks said, they could listen to Marty Rathbun for another 3 hours and love him. Brilliantly done. A++++ on presence and communication. Great host and great guest. Thank you, Marty Rathbun. Reach reach reach Hello World!

  28. I’m in heaven! 🙂

  29. Li'll bit of stuff

    Great job Marty, I hope you have a whole bunch more of
    time with Smerconish too! He sets a refreshing tone (4.0)
    that I hope is influential to all those up the line for you!

  30. Excellent interview, Marty. Loved your explanation of Scientology auditing procedure, the purpose, and the results. Also your clear communication to Michael Smerconish that the priest/penitent compact is an absolute trust that must never be violated under any circumstances.

    That one statement alone, just increased the awareness level of the public on what Scientology itself is really all about.

    VVWD for calmly and coolly sketching out the differentiation between Scientology and the organization for your host and the audience. Describing this time period as Scientology’s Reformation really put the cherry on top of the cake. Great job!

  31. Very cool interview.

    You successfully differentiated to the point where many listening could become interested in auditing enouph to want to try it, and at the same time received the info that they dont have to approach the scary/creepy Co$, but can maybe find a safe Reformed (indie) Scientologist auditor, and furthermore your highly ethical refusal to divulge TC secrets really makes it safe for them to do so.

    If i was a trained indie field auditor, i would be damned excited right now. Wish i had completed my training. In fact, this whole thing has rehibilated my desire to do so…..Very Well Done Marty !!!!

  32. Great interview Marty. He wants to hear more and we’ll welcome it.

  33. I think the world is waiting to see when Tom finally blows. It’s got us on pins and needles.

  34. Is there a way to search them for key words, like my name?

  35. Excellent Marty!

  36. Joe Pendleton

    Great job in this interview, Marty. You ALWAYS sound great in interviews by the way, composed, well spoken, straight forward and HONEST. Smerconish is one of the best. Don’t get a chance to listen to him on radio, but have always enjoyed him on MSNBC broadcasts.

  37. Hello all.
    New guy here. (But, boy have I done my research)
    Here’s the first thing I’m going to do.
    I’m going to go to Amazon.com and order up a copy of “What Is Wrong With Scientology?”.
    I’ll be back later.

  38. Great interview. Thank you Marty for helping these non-scientologists to differentiate between the subject of Scientology and the church of Scientology.

  39. Wonderful interview Marty, and great differentiating that Scientology the philosophy and the church are different completely.

  40. Excellent Interview, Marty! Micheal Smerconish is also a great Interviewer.
    It was an enjoyable, smooth conversation with a lot of data, but easily digestible. ” I could listen to him another 3 hours – I’m not kidding” at the end says it all. I felt the same.

  41. Loved the interview. Especially: “he knows where all the bodies are buried!” kidding.
    A bit of sanity in the media storm.

  42. Yeah, I wonder what Tom will do with David Miscavige once he has had enough.

    Run Davey!

  43. Well done again Marty! Fantastic interview.

  44. Out of context – Message to Ronny Bell and others.

    I feel you will like this quote:

    “I am miserable indeed only playing wog games fooling around with mest, care and feeding of the body, and craving for humanoid agreement. I am only truly happy when I am auditing or training others. I am only happy when I have a worthwhile purpose and am making progress towards it.“
    (Tommy Thompson @ http://icause.net/scientologist.html)

  45. I know better

    I love how this radio interview ended off…where the girl said “I could listen to him for another 3 hours–I’m not kidding.”

    My God if the Co$ only did what they were supposed to do people would be beating down the doors to have the services that LRH made available.

    Keep fighting the fight Marty…its just a matter of time for the implosion to complete

  46. Wow, you have my admiration Marty! Great interview by far!!!

  47. Excellent interview! Thank you!!

  48. Brilliant, very nicely done. Thanks for sharing.

  49. Very intelligent and informative interview.

    Over the past 10 years there has been a lot of mystery created over Scientology. This interview gives answers that make sense and I believe it is the beginning of a new dissemination line to Independently delivered Scientology. I really felt that the possibility of a new person being able to reach for Scientology, the subject, was given a big boost.

    Thank you.

  50. Great interview, Marty. I used to listen to Smerconish when his show aired on WOR in NYC. When it comes to political talk radio, he most closely exemplifies “the great middle path”, neither left nor right wing.

  51. yes, very much distinguishing between Scientology & DM-ology which can be *quite* different. also love it how Marty refuses to blow-his-load on knowledge gained during auditing, again *quite* different from the culture of abuse perpetuated by DM et al

  52. I have a few questions for the executives who have left the church. Does DM practice Scientology? Is he clear, or OT? Is he qualified to audit, and does he get audited? I ask because it appears to many outside observers, and myself, who take the time to look at the St. Pete times and other sources of info, like the books by Amy, Marty, Marc and so on, that DM HATES Scientologists. The evil cruelty and violence that has been experienced and documented by many former high level officers, and others, makes it difficult to believe the DM respects Scientology and/or Scientologists. This is ironic; as he is the head of an organization that teaches a philosophy he apparently does not practice or believe in, to people he does not like or respect enough to treat with basic human decency.

  53. Beautiful interview! Very on policy. I’m going to call my local DSA and try to get her to listen to this.

  54. Marty, thanks for an intense, articulate, to the point and comprehensive
    interview with Michael. 2 bright minds…
    When living in So Calif, Michael was my absolute favorite radio host as
    he is extremely intelligent and grasps any issue with pinpoint accuracy.
    Well worth listening to. Used to be on KABC.
    Love your book Marty.

  55. There’s been an explosion of media also here in the UK and initially was trying to keep on top of it all, but it would be like trying to catch a raindrop.

    People are talking about Scientology openly, in pubs, on the street. Someone made the suggestion to me that the TC settlement was to avert further damage, but think the genie is well and truly out of the bottle.

    Wonder if I can get any more metaphors in this post?

  56. Le Rossignol

    And, I might add, Marty does so brilliantly in his book WISWS.

    I have rarely seen a book, about anything, which is so easy to read and understand.

    Remarkable book. Really.

  57. Just as you predicted Marty!!!

    “Let me be very clear about this. The Church of Scientology played absolutely NO ROLE in the divorce settlement talks at all. Period,” Fields tells Radar Online.
    “The mere suggestion that the Church was involved in any element of the talks and ultimate settlement is categorically false. Anyone suggesting otherwise is just wrong.”

    Tom Cruise and Katie Holmes Fallout: Actor’s Lawyer Denies Scientology Factored Into Divorce Settlement

  58. In an earlier statement, Pouw commented about Pressley and other members speaking out against Scientology. “…the Church regrets that excommunicated self-serving apostates are sadly exploiting private family matters to further their hate-filled agendas against their former faith. Having left the Church many years ago, these sources have no current knowledge about the Church and their recollections are distorted by their animosity.”

    Hummm…excommunicated, self-serving apostates. Let me just evaluate that Karen Pouw. Am I an excommunicated self-serving apostate?

    No, I don’t think so. I think I’m a little ticked off still at having been ripped off for 100 grand by a squirrel group (FSO). I quit, I wasn’t fired. I quit the squirrel group so I COULD apply scientology.

    By my evaluation, Karen Pouw, thou art the apostate. And thine glorious leader is a sociopathic dictator with more crimes against LRH and the tech than every Indy combined. Yet, strangely enough, he’s the “only one” who isn’t being sec checked to death. Find that a little odd, Karen? I do.

    And, Karen, speaking of exploiting pirvate family matters to further their hate-filled agends…how about those anti-Marty sites you folks have put up?

    The tipping point has been reached, Karen. It tipped when you and your other DM enablers lost the last miniscule shred of personal integrity. How on earth will you recover from that loss? Maybe take Steve Hall’s advice and get started on your A-E. If you work fast, you might get it done before your billion year contract is up.

  59. Nice interview clear and easy for any person who heard of scientology to understand his explanation of auditing. /

  60. Les — perfect comment.

    It’s funny, I was thinking about the same thing this morning and was logging on to write a comment and I read yours.

    It is the RCS members who are the real apostates. They HAVE renounced Scientology and they practice some other thing that is not recognizable as Scientology. And Miscavige in particular loves to exploit private family matters for his personal gain, and for sure his viewpoint of everything in the world is distorted by his seething hatred and animosity towards all things not MEST.

    It sucks to be Miscavige.

  61. This was very predictable. I told reporters when the settlement was announced that this is how they would play it.

    They could NOT get Katie to agree to a statement about how Scientology had nothing to do with it (and her credibility would have been destroyed had she done so), so they get the settlement and everything about it is confidential. And Katie no doubt wants nothing to do with this whole mess….

    They trot out the spin doctors — Bert Fields being first choice, and make these statements knowing there will be no contradiction from Katie — she got what she wanted. They will be using the publicist lines to People and Us Magazine and entertainment shows and you will see this line being run now.

    This emphatic denial though is going to fall on deaf ears. Nobody believes it.

    It’s a typical Miscavige maneuver. Solve the problem by paying money. Get a confidential settlement. As part of it buy the right to make a filing or a statement that allows him to “save face” in exchange for the money, even though the person(s) he settles with would not agree to make the statement themselves. And probably this one goes beyond what was agreed to — but what are they going to do about it now? They just want this to all go away. And it’s not “harmful” to Katie that Tom’s lawyer says this. Though from a PR perspective, I think they made this move too soon and it will backfire as now its like throwing chum in the water to all the media that reported this WAS the case. But the urgency of the statement coming out is the best indicator that the real reason for this settlement happening SO fast is that the corporate church was being decimated in the press.

  62. Not to “hawk” the book but Marty does give the best answer to this question I have heard to date.

    What is interesting is that the interviewer moved on from that argument himself. I hope this is indicative of future dialogue in the media.

    Bottom line is it simply isn’t the issue that needs resolving.

    Beliefs and the path one chooses to follow of their own free will is one thing.

    Beliefs and the path one is forced to follow regardless of his free will is quite another.

  63. Great Interview, straight forward and to the point. 🙂

  64. Your humble servant


    Excellent observations. By all reports, the answer to all of your questions is no. People in the Church assume the answer is yes but they are wrong. Horrifyingly, even though DM is not an auditor and not an OT, he has nevertheless mucked around with and changed the advanced OT levels, among many other things he has enforced destructive changes upon. Apparently, he is a real life caricature of a psychotic Super Squirrel.

  65. Great interview, and I thought the interviewer did a fabulous job.
    Looking forward to reading the book which I’ve purchased.

  66. MR: Exactly. Wallpaper it over with confidential paperwork. And that was my thought exactly about how fast this went. DM must have leaned on Cruise big time to settle fast and at all costs and take the heat and focus off him (DM). Probably there was lot of make wrong thrown in there, too, to the effect that all-knowing DM “told” Tom over and over what a mistake it was to marry Katie (when he was behind the scenes enabling the recruitment of the marital candidates in the first place) and what an SP she was/is. But Tom didn’t listen, married a “wog” and now look at the mess he is in, but DM is there to bail him out as his BFF.

  67. It is quite simple, actually. It is covered in the scientology technology that people like David Miscavige believes that everyone is out to get HIM. He feels that there are enemies behind every bush even when there isn’t anyone within miles of him, and he has no friends – only enemies in disguise [to his thinking].

    Therefore, anything that makes others more able and more awake, like Scientology, is a threat to him personally. It has to be quelled. Everyone around him has to be controlled and pushed into the mud so they are less threatening to him. Scientology can help him get out of his personal hell, but he doesn’t trust anyone enough to actually be audited yet. Auditing doesn’t work without trust in the auditor. Instead, Miscavige has, for the last 30 years been slowly putting small blocks on training of auditors, inlux of new people and the auditing procedure itself. Small little stumbling blocks that together now makes it almost impossible to become a good auditor and very difficult to move up the bridge to Clear and beyond. Apart from the blocks themselves on training and auditing and the high prices, he has put a lot of pressure on IAS donations and Ideal Ord donations so that the people in the churches now have used all their money on donations instead of progressing on the bridge, which in turn makes the Idle Morgues even more empty.

  68. I don’t know yet. Still trying to download the 3 gigs from torrent. My connection is sloooooow. I can assume though if these email leaks are real, someone will eventually post them on the web in a searchable webpage format.

  69. Mike that is truly mind boggling. More so due to the decades DM has been in power. DM’s con job is on the realm of the man-made global warming scam to impose carbon taxes, combined with nazi-style torture. I wonder if DM actually wants an implosion. It allows him to enjoy beating up innocent children for a couple decades. Then when the church falls apart he can take his money and run away with Tom.

  70. Marty – I thought you both did an excellent job in this interview. Very pleasing to the ear.

  71. Michael Smerconish; Amazing radio show host.
    That is one guy I’d like to meet.

  72. Shouldn’t it be WIWWS? Or just WIS – redacted.

    Anyway, very enjoyable interview, really easy on the ear. Good point too, from David above re politeness. This is SO important. Compare and contrast the Stepford (scientology) wives being interviewed on Anderson Cooper CNN.

  73. Great interview, Marty. Both yourself and the interviewer. Seems like he was genuinely interested and not out to ambush you or anything. Great job distinguishing the Independents from the Church of Black Scientology, especially.

    Michael A. Hobson
    Independent Scientologist

  74. I hope you didn’t make the same mistake I did and order it through amazon.com as it took over 2 weeks to arrive. I should have waited a few more hours till it appeared on amazon.co.uk. Well worth the wait though – full review in a couple days when I’ve finished it.

  75. Welcome! We look forward to your comments on the book.

  76. Forwarded it to curious friends. Much easier than trying to explain it myself.

  77. Excellent interview, Marty. You’re right, Smerconish is an excellent interviewer and is a frequent guest host on MSNBC (filling in for Chris Matthews this week). You would be fabulous on “Hardball” if MSNBC had the stones for it.

  78. How about: The toothpaste (truth) is now out of the tube and won’t be going back in!

    VWD, Marty. What a great comment from one of the others on the show, after you were on: “And what a stand-up guy, for refusing to spill on Tom Cruise’s confessional contents!”

    Evidence of the kind of integrity that David Miscavige cannot even conceive of.

  79. martyrathbun09

    Don, they have the stones. He invited me, but we could not fly out there and they could not arrange the technology out here in the sticks to beam me in.

  80. Great Interview Marty.

  81. Excellent points !!! Makes total sense. they couldn’t get her to agree to a statement about how Scientology had nothing to do with it so they got the settlement and everything about it is confidential. This explains the joint statement that was released after the settlement where they stated the *respect for each others commitment* to each of our respective beliefs…it did not say they respected each others beliefs, just their commitment to their respective beliefs….two completely different things…

    As I read Mr. Field’s statement again, I see he says the COS didn’t take part in the *settlement*, he didn’t say it was not a factor that contributed to the *divorce* itself…is there a reason for that distinction?

    Isn’t Katie’s registration with a Catholic Church in NY an obvious way to make an unspoken *statement* of reaffirming where she stands and being free to do something she couldn’t do before?…it is also a very liberal and inclusive church that welcomes the LGBT community…

    It seems that she is receiving great counsel from those close to her that are supporting her during this process….

    This all reminds me of a Gandhi quote…

    “Truth never damages a cause that is just.” ~ Mahatma Gandhi

    …..so why is the corporate COS so secretive? The answer is obvious…

  82. Indeed. That’s a wonderful quote, and very real to me.

  83. What irony…Miscavage concocted visions of enemies all around when it wasn’t the case, but by his actions he has created that reality for himself.
    How prophetic of him!

  84. 🙂 🙂

  85. Wow!!! That’s great news; the invitation in itself is significant and another indication that the intimidation factor is nowhere near what it used to be. Hopefully you have a future invite!

  86. Thanks.

  87. I can only hope that the media and the public will stop referring to Marty as an EX Scientologist and realize that he is an ex to the DM’s tactics. In the above interview he clearly stated that he is practicing at home (as many of us here).

    Please correct me if I’m wrong.

  88. threefeetback

    Yours would not be the first TV interview using Skype or cell phone video.

  89. Congrats, OOTWS! Nice rehab on your objectives!

  90. It’s amazing how fast you enlightened yourself. 🙂 🙂

  91. Yep – that is why I won’t resign from the Church. As far as I am concerned, the church left me, I didn’t leave them. It is almost like the early Christian model of the body of the church: Each person in the church is the church. I am the church, and wherever I go, there is the church. That Mr. David Miscavige and those following him chose to go a different route just means they left the body of the church and worse, are committing fraud because they still call themselves “Scientologists.”

  92. The ironic thing is that what will confirm that Scientology played a big role in this is what Katie does going forward. Will she shill for the Church or not? Of course not. Will Suri end up in “Scientology”-associated schools? Of course not. Katie doesn’t have to say anything. All she has to do is live her life, and let Suri live hers.

  93. Awesome interview.

    And, Marty, I am reading your book, and I have to say it is a milestone of magnitude. It is the first definitive book accurately reflecting not only the state of the church, but what Scientology is, that was not written by Ron. It is a hell of an accomplishment. I found myself reading, agreeing technically with what you are writing, and during this, I realized that I never read a book that did anything like this. Ruth Minshull is the closest, with her “How to Choose your People” book, which of course had a whole different purpose (and which was of course crushed by DM and the ‘Droids).

    Awesome, Marty.

    Also, what is very interesting to note is that during this whole process of TamKat and Scientology-bashing, there is a very clear understanding that there are non-brainwashed Scientologists out there, and that people seem to get that it is okay to believe things that are different as long as you don’t beat them, force abortions, put them in prisons, or steal their money. Again, a major milestone, and kudos to you and Mike Rinder especially who have really made it clear that there is a difference.

  94. Great interview, Marty. And curious as I am re TC, I have nothing but admiration for your integrity! May you never lose that.

  95. I’ve had the basics for almost 7 yrs. A little push was needed and I’m where I wanted to be 🙂

  96. Θ

  97. Moonshot,

    If you would like to complete your training it’s not difficult to find an indie group near you. My husband is completing his training in the field and he’s winning at it and now taking on paying pc’s. Go for it! The world’s waiting.

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