For those new to the blog, I recommend an essay I posted almost three years ago titled The Great Middle Path redux. I discussed then the idea that the extreme sides of the Scientology spectrum in many ways reflect one another. The zealots on the Miscavige side and the ‘critics’ on the ‘book burner’ side nurture one another as convenient evils to make life combative enough to be interesting.
I once heard a pundit remark that probably the most straight, truthful news from the Middle East comes from the Al Jazeera news agency. He reckoned that based on an objective study of international news reportage on the region over a several year period. He cited as corroboration for that analysis the fact that Al Jazeera was the only news outfit in history to be bombed by both of the opposing sides of a military conflict.
If you check out the reader reviews on Amazon books for What Is Wrong With Scientology you will see that most who care to comment express strong feelings one way or the other about the book. A lot of people seem to either hate it or love it. Add to the mix both extremes of the Scientology spectrum. On the one side are the anti-Marty sites, authored and edited by David Miscavige. On the other side is the most prominent and persistent of Scientology ridiculers, Tony Ortega at the Village Voice.
The “church” of Scientology writes the following about What is Wrong With Scientology?:
He is now taking it upon himself to tell all who will listen “what is wrong with Scientology.” Real Scientologists recognize these interpretations as an effort to dilute, disperse, and render unworkable the truths and principles of Scientology Technology which is, after all is said and done, one of Rathbun’s primary destructive goals – to make Scientology unattainable by scattering it to the wind. And real Scientologists know that the bulk of Rathbun’s latest effort is comprised of what L. Ron Hubbard himself carefully specified as Suppressive Acts, intended to harm others.
On the other extreme Tony Ortega, who has spent seventeen years attempting to make nothing of Scientology, calls What Is Wrong With Scientology?: a ‘predictable mass of Hubbard apologetics’, a ‘bundle of contradictions’, [the apologies are for a religion that is] ‘permeated with sickness’, ‘expensive malarky’, [attempts to pass off] ‘Eastern woo woo as ‘scientific certainty’, and the defense is a bunch of ‘new age happy talk.’
It reads to me like a shade of the Al Jazeera effect.
On the one hand I am accused on attempting to destroy everything L. Ron Hubbard stood for.
On the other hand, I am accused of being Hubbard’s greatest defender.
Those who have read the book and have followed the blog for long might understand why this reaction from the extremes pleases me. It makes me feel like I must have hit the ball right in the sweet spot.
Moving On Up a Little Higher 
Stacy Dawn Murphy, age 20, died on Thursday at Narconon Arrowhead in Canadian, Oklahoma; she wasn’t even a Scientologist. She is the fourth death there in just the past year. Police went in and found patients who had entered voluntarily were being kept against their will and being made to read Scientology literature!
I strongly urge any ex/indie-Scientologists who have any information on the inner workings of Narconon and its affiliates to contact the family or the Oklahoma state authorities who’re investigating!
Indeed you have — hit the ball in the sweet spot. Not playing baseball (?) I have no idea what that means but I’m guessing it’s a good thing.
Here’s what I’ve noticed as I frequent and post on Tony’s blog as well as yours. I frequent others sites – some more radical like Xenu dot net but never post there.
Those who decry all things Hubbard as horrible and therefore all things Marty as horrible on Tony’s blog will OCCASIONALLY soften and start to look at a different perspective. A few will actually engage in a conversation.
NOT SO with any of the existing card-carrying church members. I tried the other day with an old friend. Sent her the heartbreaking news about Alex Jenzsch (thinking perhaps she had not heart as it was BEFORE CC said they would give him a memorial). I was appalled at the very rigid perspective she had and the sanctimonious response to me — basically how I had better wake up and realize just WHO the SPs were. It was useless to try to engage her in a conversation.
BLACK/WHITE thinking peppered by a strong dose of willful blindness as one of her sea org born children is still in the sea org. The other, blew or routed out of gold years ago and wants nothing more to do with dm’s cult.
Not to mention her livelihood depends on towing the party line as her husband’s business was bankrolled by wealthy card-carrying dm-ites.
SORRY I’ve started to rant (I was so shocked at her response) – it is to prove the point that critiques and those who don’t like or understand scientology appear able to be talked to. And several of them on Tony’s blog have decided to buy your book.
Those marching to dms drum, never will. Until they break a leg or two.
Sad.
Christine
Thanks for being here. Hugs
PS I guess you would want to know. Yes I just finished your book. My thoughts …. I don’t know what to think … I haven’t been ‘out’ for that long. It is still very taboo for me to read this stuff that I never knew existed. It is still a shock to me that I was finally blown off lines for good by the abuse and out-tech. I was a little bored with the first few chapters but you did make me feel doing the grades completely would be a good thing to do. Forme, I got the most from the OT level chapter. It helped calm me down. (Yours is the only book I have read or felt that it was okay to read so far to date)
You’ve touched both sides a on their raw nerve.
I would say you nailed it perfectly.
It is amusing to watch the efforts to position you as both the most vehement anti-Scientologist and as the most brainwashed cult apologist. And then there are those who can actually think for themselves and don’t just follow what someone tells them to think. They recognize you for your intelligence and moderation and see you as a thinker, writer and champion of freedom of thought and conscience. Count me in the latter category.
I hear you Marty.
Scientology is not for everyone. Yapping dogs.
I don’t see Scientology the way dm and the bots want to present it either.
I will get my enhancement from those that approach my own reality about life.
Other people can have their views. But they don’t have to be mine.
Thanks for all you do Brother!!
You must be doing something very right. When everyone starts adoring you you can count on having made some serious errors.
It is now proven beyond a shadow of any doubt in the world that the Scientology “Church” Corporation lies. Period.
Hence, whomever Scientology Inc condemns or praises, the exact *opposite* is the truth
Why is Tom Cruise — isn’t he what the Church calls an “OT VII” super high level attained guy — on the front of People magazine acting like a whimpy, blind victim?
Dear Marty,
I have started on your book and then got busy and… I will make it my priority to complete this book this coming week and will write a comment on Amazon.
I highly respect you for maintaining your position!!! Because anyone asking for agreement from others will be dammed if he does and dammed if he doesn’t!
Keep going! I am with you!
With Love & Admiration,
Anat
The people in the “Official PooPah Church of Scientology” remind me of vultures gloating and flaunting to the rest of the world that they have the only way to make anyone decent. It is so gross and vile.
Thank you for making Scientology available with no strings attached to people who sincerely want it
Moi aussi.
Darn It I hear you. I felt this way and have read hundreds of accounts of people who experienced the same, all thinking they were the only ones until they compared notes. —> It is still a shock to me that I was finally blown off lines for good by the abuse and out-tech. All the best people were blown off and attacked first.
Sweet spot (sports): A sweet spot is a place where a combination of factors results in a maximum response for a given amount of effort. In tennis, baseball, or cricket, a given swing will result in a more powerful hit if the ball strikes the racquet or bat on the latter’s sweet spot.
Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sweet_spot_(sports)
I enjoyed your book, Marty, because I thought it was a straightforward and necessary book to put into existence. Much of what you wrote has already been said, both by you and by others around the internet. However, a book such as yours needed to be compiled, written and published as a single compendium of facts and perspectives.
I’ve been following the decline of Corporate Scientology for a few years now, with myself having “left” the “church” just about a year ago. It’s been easy for me to spend countless hours scouring the ‘net and soaking up information. For those that are just coming out of the church now or for those that have been out for a while and are not so computer savvy, material like “What is Wrong with Scientology?” is exactly what is needed. A simple, single resource that will generate thought and perhaps act as a road marker along the pathway to greater freedom.
Thanks for writing and publishing it.
Marty, on a separate note, are you going to be giving us an update in regard to the GAT II circus that possibly went on Friday/Saturday night at the Maiden Voyage Event #1? I’m dying to know just how far Miscavige has pushed the squirrel envelope with his alteration of LRH Tech.
What struck me about Tony Ortega’s comments about your book and what really shows through is that his comments we’re written by someone with absolutely no subjective reality on Scientology. One can’t evaluate Scientology from a 100 yards away on a purely theoretical level. Tony is not willing to get his “fingernails wet”, and this is probably one of the main reasons LRH forbade giving interviews to reporters – they’ve already written the story before they’re “interviewed” someone.
Things like TRs and Objectives might look weird from the outside, but unless you’ve experienced them for yourself you would never have a clue that they can produce life changing wins. LRH was very upfront that Dianetics and Scientology were more of an evolution of what was already discovered about the mind and spirit.
Tony is someone who has never observed an LFBD on another person, let alone experienced it for himself. In fact, “LFBD” would just be another MU for Tony. His view on Scientology is therefore only shallow and superficial and dare I say, “glib”, mostly regurgitating what other reporters and critics have been saying about Scientology for a long time. Even some of the most bitter ex-Scientologists have nice things to say about the tech. To say that Scientology contains nothing but bad misses the picture and misses the real story about how intelligent people with a desire to help can become involved in an abusive cult. Tony needs to dig deeper if he wants to get that story, but I’m not holding my breath. Instead, it’s easier for him to just report about the various flaps of the day, waiting for the news to come to him as opposed to making an real effort to get “the scoop”.
A reasonable review requires differentiation. As long as someone works an a basis of good vs. bad, black vs. white he is also buying an A=A=A, because any bad equals any bad, etc.
Also, the thinking of people who have adopted a fixed “view” is not a fruitful field for achieving a new understanding. They tend to defend their “solution” and attack anything that challenges their view.
Correction – “Tony is not willing to get his “fingernails wet”,” should be Tony is not willing to get his “fingernails dirty”,
Tony Ortega is on a mission to expose abuse, and that is good, and he demonstrated some courage in the face of the :seek & destroy” tactics employed by Scientology corporation — *however* Ortega is also sometimes biased and stoops to ridicule, which is not objective. Also, there are occasional things he gets wrong about Scientology itself. I forgive him that because overall he is effective in combating the sinister, heinous hijacking and corruption of an organized body of knowledge that does really help people when practiced without twisted arbitrary agendas. But he clearly is the extreme of polarities.
Marty, your book employs what is called “Differentiation” — one of the signs of a sanity.: the ability to pick out of a conglomerate mix what is true, what is fact, what is not. Binarism in language itself and groups that form around it is one of the root causes of war and stupidity (inability to think, perceive, reason).
Help bring people to spiritual awareness. The rest is planet earth bullshit. Egos gone wild.
The best way to stop the media madness is to really help people find themselves.
Happy people are not good news.
Waring factions, violent leaders, sexual abuse, Ron’s case, celebrity wakos, lies, black ops, baring false witness, millions of dollars, letting people die because of improper medical treatment, Marty’s great, Marty’s evil, Micavige is psycho, destroying reputations: will always be grist fo the mill.
Success is the greatest revenge. All of this madness has nothing to do with being on the path of liberation.
Become free, spend more more helping others to be free, spend less time on warring with idiots who love to war.
Independents unite! Make happy people and let journalists and Miscavige hammer the feet of clay.
Become a spiritual force, that is the real work. The rest of it is a tabloid dance macabre.
Free ourselves then free others, that’s the original goal right?
Love,
Brian on his high horse
New agey?? Seriously?? Tony Ortega, be a freedom fighter but don’t get jaded! Sing it Elvis Costello!
What’s So Funny About Peace, Love & Understanding?
(written by Nick Lowe)
As I walk on
This wicked world
Searchin’ for light in the darkness of insanity.
I ask myself
Is all hope lost?
Is there only pain and hatred, and misery?
And each time I feel like this inside,
There’s one thing I wanna know:
What’s so funny ’bout peace love & understanding?
What’s so funny ’bout peace love & understanding?
[ Lyrics from: http://www.lyricsfreak.com/a/a+perfect+circle/peace+love+and+understanding_10000054.html ]
And as I walk on
Through troubled times
My spirit gets so downhearted sometimes
So where are the strong
And who are the trusted?
And where is the harmony?
Sweet harmony.
Cause each time I feel it slippin’ away, just makes me wanna cry.
What’s so funny ’bout peace love & understanding?
What’s so funny ’bout peace love & understanding?
So where are the strong?
And who are the trusted?
And where is the harmony?
Sweet harmony.
Cause each time I feel it slippin’ away, just makes me wanna cry.
What’s so funny ’bout peace love & understanding?
What’s so funny ’bout peace love & understanding?
What’s so funny ’bout peace love & understanding?
” Count me in the latter category.” By all means count Vicki and I also.
For us, this is the real deal.
And since we’ve already paid the price of admission, our mutual opinion is, “OK, please continue!”
Much love to you and Mosey,
V&V
Marty,
I am reading the Reversal chapter now and I have to tell you that it is blowing my mind…
I can imagine lots of free thinkers forwarding the tech and creating a much better planet. Forget the dictatorship, wasn’t the idea that people that gained a lot of sanity and free theta could be trusted to do what is right and not have to be forced to help in the ways that others thought that they should?? A+
I can see how this book would mean a lot more to people that had experience with the organization. Non-Scientologists might not get it. It COULD help them to understand the subject better if they were relatively sane.
I have to thank you or your book. Most importantly the section that noted the CoS is dramatizing the ser fac, “We are the only ones who can save the planet, which justifies anything we do.” (paraphrased as I couldn’t find your book for an exact quote) From that ser fac, we have the multitude of lies and overts we see within the CoS today. We have literalism and the viewpoint that everything LRH said was law and must be followed exactly. Looking at it now, this was a ridiculous idea. Perhaps more will be discussed (and argued) as to why this happened, but that is beside the point for now. Now we see both sides of the ser fac: LRH is God and everything we do is right vs anything LRH says is bad and therefore wrong, or whichever way you want to present it.
What is important is to see the insanity of the ser fac and then to separate out from it. This is what finally saved me from the CofS. I could now see the good in the tech as separate from any literal interpretation and suppressive application. My original purpose to help others and to help myself was revitalized, which were clouded by being sandwiched within that ser fac for so many years.
More importantly, though, once I had separated out I realized that I couldn’t blame anyone for the situation I was in. It became quite clear that I had gone into Treason on my first dynamic because I gave up cause and responsibility on my own dynamics. I had given source and cause to the CoS, but also to LRH. LRH is source to his tech only. He is not cause or source on life and clearly not on my dynamics. Once I popped out of this mess, I was at peace. I could hold my position and relax, feeling no need to antagonistically defend myself (nor attack anyone else.) I went free from the games condition.
Now, I can pick and choose what portions of LRH I can agree with or use. I am no longer robotically following or adhering to any part of it. Maybe I am wrong on Marty’s intention in his writings, but this is what I got from Marty’s book. He can see that some of the tech, especially admin after 1965 had some flaws. I do not see any problem with this. LRH had flaws…big deal, he was human. Even tech, as with all life will always be evolving. I am at cause in my life and I look at LRH as a reference. I can pick and choose what to use. I believe this is what LRH wanted. This also follows the thinking of Buddha (and LRH) in that there is only a path that is offered to us. It is up to each individual to study and use the technology and see if it is true for them. The technology is a gift to all of us. If you study it, find it helpful, then good on you…use it. If not, then walk away.
So, back to the blog topic. Tempers flare on either side of this argument: all tech is bad or all must be adhered to. Both sides are flawed. The Middle Way is quite workable in this situation.
And to you Marty, I believe you are one of the only ones who had the courage, confront, ability and position to argue all sides of this messed up equation, with the goal of assisting all of us (including yourself) unwind. Thank you
About 2 years ago I sent a 20 year old heroin addict to the same facility and the patient came back cured and did not revert…
I thought Tony Ortega’s review was a lot more positive than is indicated by those out-of-context phrases. Half of those phrases are not even talking about the book.
You are welcome to disagree with his review but why try and misrepresent it as well?
In fact, while people here seem to think it was overly harsh, many critics think he was too nice. Maybe he hit the “sweet spot”.
+1 And this just goes to show ya that some people do NOT know what the real philosophy is. They are babbling on about their misunderstandings of it. They haven’t figured out that the man started it out, blew some people’s minds and discovered something that good and successful that others tried to steal it and control it. Why do that if it wasn’t any good?
Then he passes on and leaves information about what he wanted to have happen, but a new guy (who had started digging in a lot earlier) takes over by bullying, covert tactics and force and changes it for his own personal money-making and authoritarian desires. He puts the originator/founder on some sort of fake pedestal to make sure the followers don’t leave after the originator’s death and will follow the new guy’s made-up rules and authority, and give him tons of money for nothing in return, making it look like he has some sort of respect for the originator/founder. Which he doesn’t.
And THAT is what everyone is running away from at full speed. It’s just SO obvious who the heck knows what they are talking about and who doesn’t.
There is a difference! The original stuff worked when properly learned and applied. The “new stuff” is demeaning, unbelievably expensive, hurtful, destructive, controlling, sneaky and covert as hell.
An example–in 1973 when I bought my whole academy training package and internships, (Levels 0-4, HSDC, both internships and the study courses and TRs) the grand total I spent was around $1,400. And I received and gave incredible wins as an auditor for many years and helped people out of all kinds of bad situations in their lives. What does that same training package cost now? 20K? For what? The chance to be controlled by the “church” of $cientology and told what to do with the people you really just wanted to help? But at what price?
Give me the old stuff, by the man himself any day. At least I know it will work and truly help the person I set about to genuinely help.
In 1995 a very competent field auditor in the mid west audited a fine gentleman all the way through his grades and then NED to clear. This gentleman was keyed out, competent and really had his dynamics in line.
That is, until he went to ASHO for his CCRD. After Fing that up royally, ASHO put him on Power (without having declared him on NED case completion). Mediocre wins on Power (typical for those already clear). Then some real tech maven decided he needed Expanded Dianetics. Then, when that didn’t work out so well they sec checked the shit out of him. Then, when that didn’t work so well, they put him back on regular Dianetics. Then when that didn’t work out so well they started pulling more witholds in the middle of a NED progam that he didn’t need in the first place. That didn’t work so well, so they cashed in some of his money and put him on the Basics since he obviously didn’t know what the F he was doing as a “scientologist.”
13 years and several hundred thousand dollars after going to ASHO, this fine gentleman just said F it. I’m done.
It took about 20 hours to get rid of all the BPC from the Fing suppressive auditing and C/Sing at ASHO and Flag.
He’s off on a persistent F/N right now. Glowing. Certain. Clear.
The great middle path is using the right tool at the right time, with the intention of restoring full self determinism to the individual. Sometimes any of a number of tools will suffice. A true pro knows them and selects them well.
I say this from the viewpoing of someone who audits a lot of people on a regular basis. Neither Tony Ortega, nor the majority of people in the church of miscavology have even the foggiest clue of what the TECH is, what it can do or how to do it.
Also, from that same viewpoint, I thing your book is an excellent description of what miscavige has done to twist the tech into a destructive, rather than a liberating activity.
Write on, Mr. Rathbun.
Les
That’s because he didn’t truly achieve that level, or some of the levels prior to that to be able to withstand the OT VII level itself and get true benefit from it. But he’s been told by DM that he has. Bummer! DM would know, right? LOL.
Also, the OT levels themselves do not clue someone into a creep in your environment who is trying to control you for all you’ve got. They don’t tell you “Hey dude–your wife is about to split from you.” They deal with totally different, spiritual abilities. If you don’t have the desire or intention in your own life to live the truth and see that you actually do, (like, play deputy to a sociopath who is bent on control, taking others down with him and ripping off everyone in sight for everything they’re worth) the OT levels don’t do that much for you.
And that’s not some “Hubbard-sim.” That is the basis of all social religions (vs. anti-social religions) in the history of the planet. It’s what you do with it, how you use it. And as you do more harm with the abilites you have, the less powerful you become over time.
So yes, Tom is a victim, and it will not stop there unless he stops it himself, in his own heart and in his own actions, and look around and get honest.
This is totally off topic and if if can’t be posted I’ll understand, but I live in a predominately French area and I was wondering if there are any blogs like
Marty’s in French. Can anybody refer me to any.
Yes, very true. Mr. Otrega has done a lot of homework from the outside only, therefore thinking he is qulaified to write and write and write about the subject.
He doesn’t realize there are TWO subjects! The technology that Hubbard came up with that WORKED if it is learned and applied correctly, and the whacko Radical Church of Scn, Scn. Inc., or the structured church as we know it today headed by Miscavige.
One will not experience the good ol’ real thing in the “church” that is presently captivated under the Miscavige administration. IT IS A TOTALLY DIFFERENT SUBJECT! HE TOTALLY CHANGED IT!
What does it take to get this recognized? The reporters, critics, and bystanders who just motor on with their stupid comments without realizing what the heck they are talking about are so ignorant they might enjoy joining up with Miscavige for sure. You’re just going along with his “Dupe You!” activities.
And to earlier members who don’t like the original stuff, I feel for you. Because you took it up in good faith and wanted to do good for others and have good things happen to you and somewhere along the line they didn’t. Or worse. But please consider that what happened to you was not part of the actual practices either. You have the original intention from back then–find an indie auditor who will probably help you for free, and get what you wanted to get many years ago. It is still there and it’s growing every day.
Here is a report about this Freewinds Maiden Voyage event:
https://markrathbun.wordpress.com/2012/07/21/the-way-to-happy-profits/#comment-216468
Hi Marty,
Just a comment on the Reversal chapter of your book. Excellent.
You bring up the idea that LRH came up with these policies during a time of attack and that makes sense. Also you say to take it literally (those policies) isn’t real smart. (my paraphrase) And I agree with that.
It made me think of the State of Emergency policy where LRH talks about taking some drastic action to save the group and later it can be discussed an made to make sense so as not to create a group engram. (Something to this effect) It is like you are doing that now with an old operating basis that doesn’t seem to fit present time.
If you look at the defifnition of Responsibility as : “The nonrecognition and denial of the right of intervention between oneself and any being, idea, matter, energy, space, time or form, and the assumption of full right of determination over it.” ~ LRH Intro to Scientology Ethics.
If you look at that definition it tells you that if you are to take responsibility for something then you don’t recognize the right of another being to essentially bypass your view and actions toward it. This would include LRH not having the right to bypass me on my thoughts and ideas of how I think of something or my desire to handle it.
I really loved your differentiation on how the group became so abberated. It blew some charge for me forsure.
I really admire the fact that you have the guts to say what you think and are not part of the “group thinkers”.
I look forward to reading the rest of the book.
I hope that this doesn’t come across as a paid endorsement. 🙂
I really wanted to share my thoughts on this chapter.
I am very sorry to hear this. I have no direct information about what has happened there, although I’ve read elsewhere that this death was one of several deaths at at NNAH this year.
It should go without saying that clients should not be dying at drug rehab centers. Assuming the reports of these deaths are accurate, something very wrong is going on, and NNAH’s policies, personnel and actions should be investigated carefully and independently.
I remember that I once turned a deaf ear to criticisms and allegations of wrongdoing by Corporate Scientology. I don’t tune out information like this anymore.
JM
Count me in also. I’ve now read the book twice and although I’ve been following the blog almost from the beginning, still came away with numerous insights. It is THE book to read for anyone who wants to know the difference between the Miscavige cult and the original applied philosophy of L. Ron Hubbard.
I hate to put it in this perspective, because I always regarded “Buy this book, read it and apply it” as what to tell someone about Dianetics, Book One. That was the beat, that’s what you did when you were out selling books offering the same self-help that you personally had benefitted from.
Marty did not discover the practice, he is sorting it out from confusions and just total crap added in by others that dilute it and destroy the original technology and intentions to help.
But, that’s what I recommend at this point. OK, so don’t buy it, borrow it. But read it. Marty isn’t into making a buck off this–he could have come up with WAAAAAY more interesting, scandalous and wierd stuff a lot faster if he was just motivated to acquire money. He’d be a millionaire already if he spilled what he really knows about some people.
Marty wants to keep the subjects separate–the original technology that got wonderful gains for people who cared enough to do it right, vs. the subject as it has been warped and altered in the last 20 or so years, gaining momentum in its changes and practices that contain no recognizable similarity to the original works at all! In fact, it is copyright infringement and fraud committed by the very people who all this time were supposed to keep the subject pure and free from this criminal dishonesty.
(smile)
Marty’s VERY profound book cannot be looked at as JUST written for the present time. Of course it IS written for the here and now, but it is also a communication that will be looked at and studied and discussed for many decades (or longer) in the future. And there will be a public for it one or two hundred (or more) years from now. As there will no doubt be for Marty’s next and longer book.
The “fundamentalist” church of Scientology is what it is. You are either COMPLETELY orthodox and accept every single thing LRH wrote as completely true or you are a heretic and a “suppressive.” If you are a heretic/suppressive, you will of course be condemned and shunned by the orthodox parishioners.
But my guess is that in a hundred years (or twenty years) the CoS will be like the current Christian Scientists in number (or much less). I suspect there will be about five to ten thousand orthodox fundamentalist Scientologists in the world with their buildings and events and have pretty much no influence on religious thought or the world they live in – just a small group that very few folks hasve any interest in. Whether there will be any intererest in L. Ron Hubbard’s works or not will probably depend on some very agressive folks who really want to make his ideas known, but I think we are talking about one to two hundred years from now (that is how TOTALLY fucked the PR is for the world “Scientology” and this is the product of the current church and it’s insane leader).
But currently you are going to find much opposition to what Marty calls the middle ground (I prefer to see it as just an honest look at ALL the factors before one with no orthodox or FIXED position that one sees as something one has to DEFEND). And you’re gonna find the extremes manned by the fundamentalist crazies like Miscavige and his blind followers, and unfortunately by someone like Tory Christman (who I like by the way, and who has many important things to say about the church), who while she does stand for freedom of thought and action, also condemns virtually every single thing about LRH personally and about his work, finding nothing TRULY valuable and lasting in it.
So … keep fighting the good fight Marty (and all those who believe in an honest look – the middle ground) and remember, Jews and Christians went through the same thing. There are still many fire breathing Christian sects, BUT there are also countless books and people who have studied the Gospels and have their own individual looks at what Jesus stood for and what he was or wasn’t and millions of people who will not take a fundamentalist approach to their religion (“Cafeteria Catholics”, first used as an insult in the 1960s or so for those who did not follow the Pope on every single thing – they preferred to “pick and choose” like in a cafeteria line, and this insult now is a badge of honor for many).
And so over the next few hundred years will be for Scientology thought (all angles studied and looked at and accepted or not as true for different individuals).
Dang, I was thinking golf.
Windhorse. Very well stated and since I regularly go there can confirm this.
“Those who decry all things Hubbard as horrible and therefore all things Marty as horrible on Tony’s blog will OCCASIONALLY soften and start to look at a different perspective. A few will actually engage in a conversation.”
Many people are really interested in what it’s about and ask questions. I have to say some excellent answers, to those seekers, are given, which help understanding and truth.
ditto. (Does anyone use that word anymore?)
Congratulations Marty, you have indeed stirred up both sides of a “three” sided field – the corrupted, the critics and those that know they can do. A unique position and I agree that it must be pleasing in a number of aspects, (though tough at times I would imagine) – your communication is at least acknowledged and that in this debarcle of the misunderstandingism of what the watchers of Scientology wallow is quite something.
Since the ‘help button’ is the entrance to Scientology I guess now many have barred the subject for themselves forever. Although the matter of life in this universe has a way of never allowing anything being constant, just the ackes and pains of being old or suddenly finding yourself alone often opens the door to re evaluation but it’s generally too late by then, apathy being what it is.
I never quite realised just how tough it can be sometimes to be an actual Scientologist, goes to show the nature of the game of which we play, yet the rewards far outweigh the troubles of the path out. Never once have I ever doubted the technology – I’m not answerable to anyone for that.
Well I’m glad you’re on that horse.
Les, thank you. You walk the walk. Daily.
Your Aussie, too, eh? Yea, I was thinking Mike was my second favorite Aussie – the first being my husband, of course.
P.S. yes, I’m being silly >.<
I think what you are doing Marty and what Tony O is doing, all exes, indies and non scientologists is all good. We work together because we pretty much have the same goal in mind and we do care. To eliminate the dangers with Scientology Inc. and Miscaviage, not the beliefs or tech that works. The ridiculers and non believers are just part of the important game IMO.
Wow. First thing that really made my blood curdle is this line from Scientology, Inc: And real Scientologists know that the bulk of Rathbun’s latest effort is comprised of what L. Ron Hubbard himself carefully specified as Suppressive Acts, intended to harm others.
Now, *that* is a covert command to not look, to not inspect, to definitely not question directed squarely at the sheeple and their know-best computations.
I have not yet met an Independent Scientologist who said anything remotely kin to don’t look. All say look and decide for yourself. Thanks to you, Marty, and the incredible folks around you and around this reformation, I have the space and time to look, inspect, decide for myself. It is provided by that Great Middle Path.
Bruce
I quoted him. If I were to list the made up straw men he constructed out of whole cloth, it would take several chapters.
well. let’s see. OSA and LRH and DM and others (like Wogs, and even Judges – OMG) can read the taboo stuff.
I guess us poor little ole pc’s can’t. But wait, when it comes to money, why you gotta be OT to go OT so donate to all kinds of church causes that may not even be your bridge progress. Yep, let’s clear the planet, but you don’t count, yep, just donate to the IAS.
What I like about this kind of Middle Way approach is that it provides a space for people to re-evaluate the circumstances without falling into the polar extremes of exaggeration and denigration.
I don’t necessarily think that the “Middle Way” is yet another position, as though you’re sitting on the fence and not able to commit one way or another. What it really means is being open to all of the information that’s coming your way, being able to look at it as it is, and trying to understand the essence of it. I think there are many possible individual viewpoints within a Middle Way approach, but they are all based upon this shared attitude.
I think this opens up a third way of seeing L. Ron Hubbard himself. He’s been venerated as a god and decried as a con, both of which are very strong value judgments. Even labeling him as “just a man”, while technically accurate, may also miss the point and can have a discounting effect when used in a certain context.
Based upon his accounts alone, he was, first and foremost, a spiritual explorer. He did believe in the spirit and in a higher force right from the outset. He was familiar with both Eastern and Western traditions. Yet he was clearly more than just a synthesist. He seemed, for the most part, not wholly satisfied with traditional religions or various other paths and disciplines. But what this seemed to do was push him to the cutting edge, unafraid to entertain any information source from anywhere, no matter how rudimentary or outlandish, if it indicated the truth to him.
He developed a system based upon his own discoveries and spiritual experiences, and invited people to participate, under the condition that his work not be altered and the caveat that individuals should test things for themselves.
And yet it is apparent now, if anybody else wishes to either follow that example or at least look up to it, they are punished or ostracized – from both sides.
Of course, anything that crosses the line into harming or abusing others is clearly out – and therefore so too is the CoS in its current state. There is so much suffering in the current landscape now that it’s not going to be easy for anybody anywhere to separate the wheat from the chaff, but I think that when people are ready or able to take another look, there’s a lot to think about regarding what LRH thought and taught about our own
true potential.
As a long- time reader of your blog, Marty, I think you got at least a triple on your book. I’d say you knocked it out of the park, but I don’t want to sound like an extremist, hahaha!
Tony’s review at one point says, “The point is, Scientology today is permeated with this sickness.”
You claim he is saying that your book is “permeated with sickness.”
Again, you can disagree with what he is saying but I fail to see how the above can be considered a representative “quote”.
While obviously more time-consuming, a serious rebuttal of his review would be worthwhile if you consider people who are not Scientologists (in any sense) to be an intended audience for your book.
Just have a bit left to read in your book. Need to take little breaks… Thank you for writing it. I agree the next book, the history book, needs to happen but this needed to come out ASAP.
Maureen
Christine,
I have observed the same among the “hater” crowd. I do not believe they are nearly as many as we might at first believe. Most of the Tony O. crowd, IMHO, will come around to the reasonable notion that scientology as a whole (yes, I omitted the initial cap on purpose to disinguish between the subject and the Church) may or may not be totally evil – because when they are honest with themselves, they truly do not know. And of course, many just have fun making fun and joking around. Of course, there are still plenty of dyed-in-the-wool haters, but they are not nearly as unified as Corporate Scientologists. Nor are they as dangerous. I am disgusted by those who could not muster an ounce of compassion for Karen. I also pity them.
Not responding directly to you, but in general response to Marty’s comments: I am not convinced that Tony Ortega is in the hater camp, although many of his readers are, and he does enjoy getting them worked into a fervor over space opera stories. Color me naive, but I find Tony to be much more respecful toward the indies. I pointed out the other day that when there was a great deal of Marty/indie-bashing on his blog in response to his review of Marty’s book, he posted a much more moderate comment about never having observed an indie commit the crimes committed by and on behalf of the Church. He even chastised the bashers. In doing so, they proceeded to gang up on him for defending the indies. It was a fascinating dialogue.
There are many shades along the spectrum between the DM side and the anti-scn side.
Nancy
DarnIt, I empathize. It took me years of being out before I was willing to read anything at all about Scientology. Be patient with yourself.
Nancy
Wow. This is just unbelievable. The church is run by the insane. I guess it would be a natural outcome of people not doing the actual Bridge and in its intended form. After all, as I have recently been recognizing myself there is a much higher percentage of the insane than 2.5 or even 4%:
“About 15 percent to 20 percent of the human race apparently is insane or certainly a much higher percent than was estimated.” [HCOB 28 Nov. 70 Psychosis]
What this says is about every 5th person could be crazy so you can have a whole group of them running an organization. With no Bridge action in volume for both staff and public, the insane would inevitably rise above the rest and spread that insanity through “contagion of aberration.” Many of the insane and socially destructive people I have bumped into in my life were also very intelligent and in that even more dangerous as such would wheedle their way into positions of trust and authority and spread their insanity from there. And in businesses where the bottom line is usually the top priority, these kind of people can be tolerated for a very long time due to their skill in some technical area of technology or finance.
“A true psychotic can be brilliant or stupid, competent or incompetent. It is his general motive or purpose that determines whether or not he is insane or sane.” [HCOB 9 May 77 II Psychosis, More About]
Furthermore:
“The psychotic is motivated by intent to harm.
If he realizes he is harming things he shouldn’t, he caves himself in. If he is afraid he will be found out, he runs.
In the psychotic the impulse is quite conscious.” [HCOB 28 Nov. 70 Psychosis]
So it is completely essential for the real psychos at the Church to keep on insisting and trying to force everyone else to believe in how Marty is evil, how Mike Rinder is evil, Debbie Cook is evil, Amy Scobee is evil… so on. If it is suddenly discovered that all these people are human beings sharing concerns and trying to help and who on top of that have dedicated years of service to the church and are still working to preserve Scientology as a subject (which is the reality)… oh boy! I don’t really know what it is going to be, but this day is coming and maybe sooner than we think (hopefully right?)
I also found an actual “medical” definition of psychosis to be quite helpful (keeping in mind that there are different levels of severity of this condition):
Psychosis is a loss of contact with reality that usually includes:
False beliefs about what is taking place or who one is (delusions)
Seeing or hearing things that aren’t there (hallucinations)
Psychotic symptoms may include
Disorganized thought and speech
False beliefs that are not based in reality (delusions), especially unfounded fear or suspicion
Hearing, seeing, or feeling things that are not there (hallucinations)
Thoughts that “jump” between unrelated topics (disordered thinking)
[http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmedhealth/PMH0002520/]
If anyone had any doubt as to the condition of the folks that are running things at the Church, this should have cleared it. It definitely did so for me.
+1
Me parece que veo un lindo gatito.
I hear ya and I hate to say it, but thanks to the Ortegas and Anonymous, the squirreled tech was exposed and many now get to read and hear LRH in purest form — all free of charge and on the internet.
Marty, you did indeed hit the sweet spot. Your book really is best for those that appreciate the middle path, and understand that the fundamentals of Scientology embrace just that.
My book IS “Scientology today”, Mr. literal.
Damn, I wish I had written what you just wrote so eloquently. This phrase particularly indicated to me:
“Now we see both sides of the ser fac: LRH is God and everything we do is right vs anything LRH says is bad and therefore wrong… .”
Thanks for that, Jonsty.
Thanks, Brian. We need more people high on that same horse you are riding. And from up there, perhaps after putting aside some of the prejudice ingrained by the COS, indies and exes will give Mr. Ortega his due–if nothing else, he has continued over many years to write about the harmful side of Scientology when so many of his fellow journalists cowered in fear and clammed up on threats from the GO and OSA. So, thank you, Tony, for bearing witness. Please continue.
This is my first post, and I’m a very old-timer (’67), pre-SO although just barely. That first year in the New York Org was a hoot–worked both staffs, stayed up afterwards to do the Academy levels and was auditing in Review within the year. And we were paid an actual living wage! Then the roof fell in–but that for another time.
Read you book, Marty. Some good stuff but really want to see what you put in the promised Volume 2. When I have the stomach for the unconscionable drama, I follow both you and Tony Ortega.
Was working on something the other day that made me look up the word DIALECTICS. Here is a pertintent excerpt from Wikipedia:
“The dialectical method is dialogue between two or more people holding different points of view about a subject, who wish to establish the truth of the matter by dialogue, with reasoned arguments. Dialectics is different from debate, wherein the debaters are committed to their points of view, and mean to win the debate, either by persuading the opponent, proving their argument correct, or proving the opponent’s argument incorrect — thus, either a judge or a jury must decide who wins the debate.
It may be too soon to introduce RATIONALITY into discussion of the subject of Scientology (an intentionally snide comment directed at those who still hold a “better than” attitude towards those not in their own circle, even though, folks, hate to disillusion you, but there is only one circle and we’re all in it). But when that point is reached, we might look to dialetics (dialogue, genuine two-way communication) for the answer and not debate.
From another guy on a high horse, who has learned it is healthy to laugh at himself.
Vic
Damn, you’re boring….
… can I pet your horsey? 🙂
P.S. just in case my intention doesn’t come through, what you said was beautiful.
Nancy
Dayam, Les. You make me wish I still had my meter and materials…
Tony is your ally. Rejecting or judging him for not undertanding that which could take a lifetime to undertsand is foolish IMO.
Why be bothered that he thinks the way he does. So what he thinks its all pie in the sky idiocy. Give him due respect and move on.
I thought as a non Scientologist it was a good review.
Nice product Les!
“It makes me feel like I must have hit the ball right in the sweet spot.”
You sure have. And VWD for this major accomplishment!
(Nothing I add is new, but maybe it will edify somebody, and it
also helps myself by writing out my current understanding.)
On one side of the pole, we have extremists who are very confused about what Scientology is, and who confuse the subject with the behavior of corporate Scientologists.
On the other side we have (indoctrinated/implanted) extremist corporate Scientologists who fail to practice even the basics of Scientology, nor do they follow the church creed. They are (unknowingly) hypocrites of Scientology. If they actually practiced the theory they were taught in Scientology, I don’t see how there could be such huge ARC breaks (especially in communication) with the independent Scientology field, and huge flaps they cause with the general public. There is no attempt to gain understanding, which is what the ARC triangle is for as a tool. They can’t even apply this very, very basic fundamental. They’re in so much confusion, they can’t recognize their PTS.
I don’t see independent Scientologists creating flaps about Scientology, the subject. I don’t see evil behavior in the independent Scientology field either. In fact, there is a huge attempt by the independent field to create ARC, the direct opposite of the corporate “church”.
One idea is clear to me. What people believe, and why they believe it, profoundly influences the way they act.
Clearly, corporate Scientologists are believing something very different (and evil) than the independent field, and it shows by their insane, non-confront, and low-tone behavior.
So what is the difference between these two “versions” of Scientologists? Simple. David Miscavige and the totalitarian control of PTS Scientologists, and the use of squirrel tech and/or unapplied tech. Free Scientologists just don’t act like corporate Scientologists.
The Theta on this blog is obvious. There is nothing artificial about it (unlike the artificial theta in the “church”). How can Theta possibly survive in a constant PTS environment of fear, which is the “church”. Theta left it. What’s left there is mass PTS.
Many “anti-Scientologists” (the other extreme) are not getting the difference between the two different Scientologists. In time, I hope they do. Tony will eventually get it, and I believe he has to a certain degree.
Again, what people believe, and why they believe it, profoundly influences the way they act.
I can’t really blame the anti Scientology extremists for not wanting to look at the subject because they view the behavior of the other side of this extremism with fear and horror. So they assign the cause of the bad behavior of corporate Scientologists TO Scientology, the subject. Because of David Miscavige (mostly), and the totalitarian “church”, Scientology has no credibility to them.
Can we blame them for feeling this way? The “church” is a constant embarrassment to the subject of Scientology. So are its celebrities.
Marty and many others are doing much to turn this around. Those doing something about this evil chaos, I thank each of you.
Marty, you hit a spiritual sweet spot with your book.
I had never contributed to this blog until I read it. As a Zen practitioner (and Scientologist reader from the 90s), I felt there was an overlap. I couldn’t nail it down until I read your book.
Most of this blog, by necessity and because of your background, works on addressing human rights issues. You are causing things to happen and get better. Less discussed, and of interest to me, is the “spiritual side”.
Yesterday, I participated in a zazenkai. This is a one-day Zen retreat featuring seven or eight 25-minute rounds of zazen (sitting meditation), punctuated by 5 minutes rounds of kinhin (walking meditation), a dharma talk (sermon) by the teacher, and an interview with the teacher (usually working on a koan)(a Zen riddle).
The effects of the zazenkai are powerful. I can’t help but see the overlaps with TRs. I could the feel it today, including unusual calm in the face of some outbursts from my son (I imagine bull-baiting has a similar impact).
I believe your book will trigger more discussions in this blog, regarding the spiritual side. The potential is certainly there. This is really what it’s about, once the human right issues start to disappate. It certainly feels like the beginning of the end. Respectfully…
Great post, Les. I have seen ASHO create similar dog’s breakfasts with others. The place is a loony bin as far as I’m concerned.
For a change I am completely in disagreement with you, Marty.
If a good and just School Principal find a bullying situation in his school’s playground, he does not find the middle ground. He will discipline the bully/bullies and protect the bullied victims and try to educate everyone involved on how to prevent such situations.
Noone in their right mind can sympathize with child rape, honor killings, suicide bombings, you name it – not even half/middle way. Period. Al Jazeera needs to come in to the 21st century. Period.
You may be right, BC, but I’m thinking they shoulda stopped there. Many exposed it because they thought is was bunk and to ridicule it, right? Not to make it free for use by all.
There would have been other ways to get the true technology out and into hands who would use it correctly.
Anyway, we’ll see how it plays out. It’s obvious to see who knows what they are talking about as far as the philosophy and technology and its correct use, and who is spouting off about it for other reasons.
Anyone who wants to criticize the present “church” as it stands now though, go right ahead. Just don’t call it Scientology, cuz it’s not–call it Radical Scn., or Scn Inc, or $cientology, or Miscavige’s little bunch of robots.
@ MaBu:
Thanks for the heads-up, although the report is on the brief side, with no mention of a release of GAT II or any other materials/processes. I’m sure that full details will become available soon, I am just very interested in the continual development of a “long, hot summer” for Miscavige and thoroughly enjoy every step he takes toward self-destruction.
It is very, very interesting to note though, that DM wasn’t at the actual MV event but sent a video of him instead (if I am construing the info in the post properly).
“After all, as I have recently been recognizing myself there is a much higher percentage of the insane than 2.5 or even 4%: ”
+1
This same large percentage of insanity and PTS isn’t just in the “church”, either.
When the populace continues to vote for the same type of power-hungry, narcissist rulers, who don’t give a shit about our Constitution of the United States of America, it indicates to me the majority are PTS, with some being truly insane.
We’ve got some big 3rd and 4th dynamic challenges ahead.
You are prejudiced, and ignorant of Middle East affairs.
Marty, your book speaks the truth and so does this post. The haters at both ends of the spectrum will not thank you for it but those that can see truth do thank you.
Man’s history shows, it is a brave soul that stands up and tells the truth.
I’m sold. Buying the book tomorrow. Thank you for acknowledging the fact that soap box “rah rah” isn’t necessary in one’s quest for truth.
Brian, kissing butt to ‘like minded’ folk when they act corrupt is what made corporate Scientology what it is today. No thanks.
P.S. Glad to hear you dug one out. I’m sure you will be digging many more out.
Damn, I just had another big realization. All that yelling and screaming about Scientology being all great and advertisement of all the “help” is yet another indicator of true SP’s behind the scene. It has been my personal experience that the first thing a psychotic will do is try to persuade you how good they are, then attack any doubt or evaluation to the contrary, start poisoning your universe convincing you that it is for your own good, try to cut you off from any positive influence that may pull you out of their game… so on.
Well, the truth is that Scientology is not all that great in a way that it can be used in a very harmful way as Marty so thoroughly described it in his book. LRH warned about it more than once though he also provided enough beef that could be used against anyone potential raising concerns. At any rate, I recognized it as a very potent mechanism to convince Scientologists that Scientology is all good while employing full blown reverse Scientology processing and brainwashing techniques. People may sense something is not right, but few will make the leap to realize that the harm is effected on purpose, that your mind and your life is being destroyed quite consciously and quite systematically to stop you from making any progress while keeping it covert enough and cover you with enough lies and rational explanations where you can’t quite see it for what it is.
Again, “The psychotic is motivated by intent to harm… In the psychotic the impulse is quite conscious.” [HCOB 28 Nov. 70 Psychosis]
Wow! There is an actual intention to destroy. Holy cow. And it’s like I’ve been looking at it all this time… This whole thing is really true with David Miscavige being an SP… There does seem to be a lot of propaganda and convincing everyone that he is the super OT, a true friend, and the one who is making it all happen for the benefit of Scientology and mankind. In my experience this sort of continuous “positioning” of oneself in the minds of others (especially the victims) has been a common characteristic among all the psychotics I can think of throughout my life. Normal people don’t usually do that. They don’t usually go around trying to make sure that others believe something positive about them and nothing else. It is usually quite the opposite. Normal folks just go on with their lives, doing their jobs, addressing whatever problems they encounter, and receive any praise humbly and often times even try to downplay it (like acknowledge a lot of other people who helped them along the way and so on).
Can someone else elaborate on my evaluations? I feel like this is really something that I am discovering for myself.
Crap, I’m gonna piss you off again, Marty, ’cause I think Mr. Literal is making an important distinction. I stopped in my tracks (not literally, since I was sitting down at the time) at that same quote in your article. There is a huge difference in implication (and thus, potential inference) between the statements “[…] Scientology today is permeated with this sickness” and “[Marty’s book is] permeated with sickness.” The first statement sounds like a rally against the ruthless reign of the Runt; the second sounds like Marty’s as mad as the madhatter’s mouse! Given Tony’s full quote, I understand him to be ranting against the Runt.
Now, I am not on the receiving end of Tony’s review of my own book, so I speak from a different viewpoint. I also found the review to be much more positive that the perpetual pounding your apparently percieved – not because of the criticisms he made, but because of the complimentary observations that, to me, seemed to balance his criticisms. I agree that Tony’s final summation was on the less-than-positive side; however, I would not identify Tony or his review as the polar opposite of the reeking ravage of Rathbun from the raving, ranting runt.
That said, I have not read the official CoS “review” of your book. However, I suspect that it is in no sense an attempt at making an unbiased critical analysis as one might hope for in the media and expect as a standard in academic journals. Did the Runt’s review recommend anything rational in his retarded reading of your book?
Yours,
Nancy
P.S. Sorry about the silly spectacle of initial syllabic sounds. I seem to have restimulated a sinister circuit of symbols of alliteration. I hope you understand that my wicked and wanton wielding of worthless words does not warrant a worthwhile wesponse. Wait…. what???? WHOOPS!
Much wuv…
I have full understanding of the inner workings of Arrowhead. On all tech lines across the board.
They are not the church. They save lives. No one is “forced” to stay there. In fact, it’s quite the opposite. No one wants a student around if they don’t want to be there.
Drugs and heavy alcohol can kill people; hence the reason for rehabs. Don’t pretend addicts will give it up easily.
Thanks. It has been revised to satisfy the literal. If Tony O were held to such a standard he’d have long since been out of business.
Marty,
Please tell me what I’m prejudiced about. I am completely willing to be wrong here, but I need an argument that will convince me. I feel quite informed about middle-eastern affairs. I grew up in Denmark where middle-eastern affairs were much closer in a day-to-day-living than they were in the US. (I moved to the US in 1987). No matter how culturally tolerant you want to be, I don’t get how anyone can justify honor killings, child rape and suicide bombings (innocent people killed for the sake of making a statement).
palehorse,
Don’t be silly around Jim. He is well known for his serious demeanor and non-existent sense of humor.
Yes Safe, the problem is definitely not just within Scientology. It is everywhere I look, and it has been everywhere I looked from the very childhood. The only reason I have spent so much of my time and attention on Scientology is that I truly believe it is a solution which now has been hijacked by the insane of the world. If Scientology group is debugged, then the solution can be employed relatively quickly and effectively across the world.
Wikipedia: Attacks on and censorship of Al Jazeera:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al_Jazeera#Attacks_on_and_censorship_of_Al_Jazeera
Applauding gato rojos. So very well said. Thank you!
Ok, let’s do a drill. Start by reading the wiki article on Al Jazeera,http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al_Jazeera#Attacks_on_and_censorship_of_Al_Jazeera. Then, show me the evidence that Al Jazeera has anything to do with your hysterical allegations.
It is a great travesty and I am deeply concerned and sorrowed for Stacy
and her family for her death. It is truly so devastating to hear about this
and the other people who perished at this Narconon because of being
in untrained hands. Gary Smith you should give the authorities full
support in investigating what exactly happened – what was done that
should not have been and what was not done that should have been.
Remember in the early 80’s when we piloted the withdrawals and had
class VI and VIIIs on a 24 hours rotation getting heroin addicts (who
had been on drugs for years and been through horrible withdrawals
in the past) getting through the Narconon withdrawal with just very
minor discomforts. And it took only a few days! The incredible successes
were raved about to the point addicts came in just to withdraw so they
could go out again and start on lower doses (of course we did not allow
that but it was tried). When it comes to saving a person’s life from the
evil of drug taking there can be no slip-ups nor any shoddy substitutes
for what the manuals clearly states to do and not to do.
The thing is that the Narconon program is miles above any other drug
treatment program and it would be an extreme disservice to addicts and
their families to curtail this program.
My deep condolences go out to Stacy’s family.
I am going to ask for a refund and SP declare tonight … it is time.
Thank you for taking the time to respond to that. So Tom Cruise really is a victim and on top of that is trying to play like a victim blaming the wrong person, i.e. Katie Holmes? His photo and the story in People magazine seems so …cowardly and whimpy.
Meant damned:-)
BTW – I was blown off lines in 98, another GAT horror story, stayed away for about 12 years, but tried again in 2009/10-2012. I just did not know until a few weeks ago.
Joe, “fun-DUH-mentalist” is more like it.
Michael A. Hobson
Independent Scientologist
Agreed. I simply cannot call Scientology Inc. a “church”…calling it church is blasphemy, it is such an unholy violation of human decency and spirituality, AND the standalone original activity of Scientology.
Yes, Marty you are hitting the sweet spot….. your detractors confirm this. The middle road is with you all the way…
Marty,
Not only did you hit the ball in the sweet-spot, it was a home-run to deep center field. You have become an example of “Clean Hands Make a Happy Life” and “When you tell the truth, it becomes part of your past. When you lie, it becomes part of your future”.
Any of us currently outside the church know how this mechanism works and have seen it objectively in our own lives. You in particular as one among us have taken on the responsibility of seeing Miscavige’s reign of terror come to an end as a full time job despite “Hell or high water”.
We have all seen your confront of evil thwart Miscavige’s church of scientology’s best efforts to shut you up so that they can continue to operate with impunity, yet you stand resolute and unwavering – knowing that the truth will out in the end and that Miscavige will fail.
And you do all of this while continuing to deliver standard LRH tech to rave results on your PCs and Pre-OTs. Fantastic.
Anyways, well done on getting bombed by both sides. Is your middle name Al?
Excellent product Les. We all owe you a debt of gratitude for what you do.
Indeed Mary, the fact that both sides condem you indicates your objective treatment of the subject. You could not expect to change the mind of the people at any extreme. The people in between are the ones you gave education, and who’s view point changed with the book.
Hi Vic,
Recognized this as you right away…so glad you are adding your 2 cents here!
Just because they have an Arabic name does not mean they support terrorism or extreme Islam. If you look for a channel who support those, check out the BBC or the Swedish news channels.
Great story ! Clap Clap
Agreed
That’s fascinating, I had no idea.
Thank you for your description of your experience. Would you share what was your greatest “win” from the day?
I’ll ack you. You got it.
“There does seem to be a lot of propaganda and convincing everyone that he is the super OT, a true friend, and the one who is making it all happen for the benefit of Scientology and mankind.”
And what is DM actually doing, I mean him personally. What does he do, really? It’s a mystery to the in-crowd, but they never question it, I guess.
We are here for you and support you! Do what you feel is right. It is YOUR integrity on the line. Without the 1st dynamic, the rest are irrelevant.
Nancy
Aww, I bet he can get in touch with his inner silly streak. Anyone who can confront Int. base guards wielding a deadly bouquet of flowers has an army of sunflowers at his beck and call. And NO ONE can scowl at an army of smiling sunflowers. BWAHAHAHAAA!
Vic, I love your horsey too! May I offer your mount a drink from the barrel of water that I carry?
Nancy
Witeraw peepoo have wights too?
Woiks for me. Sometimes diplomacy is the better part of valor. (I missed the original post of yours, before you revised it. So I am totally shooting in the dark here.)
Many thumbs up Les, too many to count!
“And real Scientologists know that the bulk of Rathbun’s latest effort is comprised of what L. Ron Hubbard himself carefully specified as Suppressive Acts, intended to harm others.”
Oh, yeah? And people who dedicated 27 or years of their lives to forwarding the cause are not “real Scientologists?” Says who? A twerp that alters tech, orders abortions, subjects people to cruel and humiliating punishments, and lives like a king on money that was arm-twisted from generous donors who were told that their donations were desperately needed to protect Scientology? When you were really just squirreling it away in offshore accounts or spending it on yourself and Tom Cruise? You, David Miscavige? You have already made Scientology mostly unavailable to world by altering tech, altering “ethics,” altering the purpose, and making what is offered so expensive that no one can afford it (and those few who can don’t really make it and are laughing stocks to those who appreciate the value of money). Fortunately, real Scientology is still available from careful seekers, from independent practitioners of Scientology tech and philosophy like Marty and others.
Too bad about Tony Ortega. He does a great job in reporting factual matters. When it comes to philosophy and subjects like the human spirit, he suffers from a bad case of pomposity and is in way over his head.
“There does seem to be a lot of propaganda and convincing everyone that he is the super OT, a true friend, and the one who is making it all happen for the benefit of Scientology and mankind.”
+1 Very good observations. Thanks!
Here is a direct quote by a Miscavigite in the Amazon Reviews with the alias “GoodStanding”. (With a name like that, you know what’s important to him/her.)
“To attack Miscavige in this way is absolutely vicious and unforgivable. He is a very strong and capable leader and I feel absolutely honored to have him in charge of my religion. He may not be perfect but with the care and attention he has put into leading the release of the most marvelous basics releases, opening of wonderful ideal org buildings, implementation of just breathtaking programs to handle illiteracy, illicit drug use, psychiatric abuse, and so on I will continue to stand by him and support the Church with everything I have got.
Rathburn’s book is supposedly an unbiased account of the Church today. However, the book made absolutely no mention of any of the excellent work performed under Miscavige’s leadership and instead proceeds to make a mockery of him and everything he has accomplished for mankind.
Grow up Rathburn and stop yapping at the feet of real Scientologists!”
This shows me how brainwashed and PTS he is to David Miscavige. It makes me sick to think this is atypical of most corporate Scientologists. Does this even sound like a Scientologist to you? How embarrassing.
I’m tempted, from now on, to refer to corporate Scientologists as “Miscavigites”. To call them Scientologists disdains the subject because their behavior is so NON Scientological. To have ARC for these people is a difficult challenge. I tried my best in my comment to his “review”.
Bodil, I was totally with you until you made an unsupported attack on Al Jazeera. Have you actually visited their news website? I have, because I had assumed they had an extremist political agenda. I found I was holding an uneducated bias. Al Jazeera does not sympathize with child rape, honor killings, suicide bombings, etc. Al Jazeera is a media outlet intent on alerting the public to events that pique public interest. Fortunately, human rights abuses pique our interest as much as celebrity scandal.
Nancy
Regarding “fundamentalist” Scientology and notions that very many folks in the CoS are slavishly following what LRH wrote – this is a misidentification.
In actually, the whole point is that the CoS as a whole are NOT following LRH much at all. They are following an altered version of “scientology”, altered by Miscavige, altered to the point of reversal of LRH’s original intent and practices.
Thus they are not “fundamentalist” at all, do not regard LRH as a “God” or regard him much at all. They are more into “This is how we do things today.” They have left the “fundamentals” far behind.
The catchwords are “Following Command Intention” no matter how different it is from what LRH wrote or said or intended.
“CoS” could now just be an acronym for “Corruption of Scientology”.
I have three treasures. Guard and keep them:
The first is deep love,
The second is frugality,
And the third is not to dare to be ahead of the world.
Because of deep love, one is courageous.
Because of frugality, one is generous.
Because of not daring to be ahead of the world, one becomes the leader of the world.
Lao-tzu, The Way of Lao-tzu
Looks to me like Scientology Inc.is just making more and more of their sheeple aware of Marty and more likely to eventually check Marty and his book out.
Free advertising.
Bodil, it is just the fact of disconnecting Al Jazeera, the news agency, from the human rights violations you have just stated. You will blush and hopefully laugh at yourself once you realize you have unwittingly equated Al Jazeera with the acceptance of honor killlings, child rape and suicide bombings.
Nancy
Bodil,
Marty sympathizes with “child rape, honor killings, suicide bombings”????
That’s news to me.
Are you talking about the same Marty who is running this blog?
Yikes! That request alone gives me the creeps. Shades of the enforced “success stories” the CoS has been requiring.
Yes, remarkable read. Man truly has the most incredible problem with the truth – it scares the crap out of ’em – just ask Julian.
Ubiquilo,
Have you visited Geir’s blog? http://www.wordpress.isene.com
It’s a pretty free-form mostly unmoderated (or self-moderated) blog. Scientology is discussed there, but also computers, free will, what is reality, having fun, Buddhism and other practices, life, music, etc.
This is disgusting. The case about being made to read Scn literature is weak, but I find it unconscionable that legitimate medical staff are not overseeing this operation.
i wuv Mawty Waffbun.
down’t yew mean peepew?
Couldn’t think of what to say. Sorry about your former friend. Horrifying. Found this, showing what people can be:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/jul/22/aurora-shooting-suspect-planned-deliberation
Matt McQuinn, also 27, was killed after diving in front of his girlfriend and her older brother to shield them from the gunfire, said his family’s attorney, Rob Scott of Dayton, Ohio.
DarnIt,
You could expedite the process using the Do It Yourself Declare Kit 🙂
http://scatjappers.wordpress.com/2012/05/20/do-it-yourself-declare-kit
Also, maybe you are not clear on the meaning of The Great Middle Way (Path)? It is Buddhas’s way of expressing unflinching adherence to truth.
Steve has a post about it:
http://www.scientology-cult.com/great-middle-path.html
You’ve heard of the “What wall?” type of person?
Tony Ortega is a “What tech?” type of person. He doesn’t yet realize that any “tech” exists. He is clueless when it comes to understanding that effective and tested applications and procedures are what we are talking about, when we refer to “standard tech”. He thinks it’s all nothing more than “belief” and ideology. He’s never seen the “tech” in action. Possibly can’t see it at this time.
Don’t get me started, Simple. Let’s just say it’s a good thing that I now live 1,500 miles away from ASHO.
Great post sir. Very descriptive of current affairs for so many.
You could get in comm with my wife.
Like!
Hate to disappoint you, but this blog is unique.
Bodil,
It’s great that you can voice your concerns, so it can be clarified.
Let’s assume the situation is “a good and just School Principal find a bullying situation in his school’s playground”, and use it as an analogy of Marty’s middle path.
“If a good and just School Principal find a bullying situation in his school’s playground, he does not find the middle ground. He will discipline the bully/bullies and protect the bullied victims and try to educate everyone involved on how to prevent such situations”
I don’t think this is a good analogy for Marty’s middle path.
A good analogy for Marty’s middle path would be:
A School Principal find a bullying situation in his school’s playground.
An anarchist anti-school organization says the solution is to destroy the whole school, because the school itself is the cause of the kids bullying.
The School Principal middle paht is to discipline the bully/bullies and protect the bullied victims and try to educate everyone involved on how to prevent such situations.
Marty,
Haven’t had time to read all of the comments….
Let me just say quickly that I am very glad you have not ACTUALLY been bombed by either side.
As I was absorbing that comment from the Co$ about you, I momentarily put myself into the shoes of a ‘churchie’ and my God, these are strong words voiced against you!
Yet they are so paper thin. It is only by forbidding to LOOK that this ultra thin facade can be maintained. There is no foundation underneath. If one lifted up a corner, this house of cards would just crumble.
Anybody who knows you or has been following your blog is aware of your great products.
Come to think of it, the Co$ is just jealous!
Greta
Bodil,
If your intention was to show that Buddha’s great middle path philosophy is no good for every possible situation, then the discussion should focus on how to define the extremes.
Quote from Marty’s The great middle path – redux:
“The Great Middle Path
According to the Buddha (Siddhartha Gautama) the way toward light is along the great middle path. That is, an intelligent, righteous pursuit of truth that bypasses the distractions of the extremes. Neither extreme asceticism nor extreme engagement in entertainments of the flesh leads anywhere but to from below whence one came.”
WH,
I have also been following Ortega’s blog and I agree with your assessment. Case in point, one of the recent articles which he wrote, exploring people’s whole track experiences:
http://blogs.villagevoice.com/runninscared/2012/07/scientology_xenu_whole_track.php
I find it fascinating on the whole that this line of inquiry is being pursued at all by TO, let alone some of the information he’s been able to gather from ex-Scientologists about this, and it’s obviously engaged a lot of people in the comments section too, prompting some sincere questioning.
Yes, there is a lot to be said about some of the belief-bashing that emanates from that blog. It’s also easy to get the impression that Scientology as a philosophical subject is often being scapegoated in place of other belief systems, and Eastern religions in particular. The biggest sticking points that people seem to have (reincarnation, supernormal powers, and other beings in the universe) are a staple of these other systems.
But based upon a selection of the comments being made, I think that Tony will eventually realise that his readership is made up a lot of different colours and shades – not just hardcore skeptics. He’s free to express his own views about what he thinks is sheer nonsense, but if it gets too close to attacking spirituality or higher powers in general, then it’s naturally not going to resonate with a number of people.
I was listening to something Tory Christman was saying, something to the effect that when she first left the CoS, she thought it was the tech that was all bad and responsible for all of the harmful effects people have been experiencing. But now she’s come to observe that this is not the case, as the tech has now been applied outside of the Church without those ill effects. In the end, she concluded that it was the stifling environment of the CoS itself that’s been causing big problems moreso than the application of the philosophy and technology itself.
It’s a real shame (and quite frightening, in all honesty) that many True Believers still within the Church seem incapable of adapting their viewpoints in this way, let alone showing any ounce of human empathy at all in these difficult times. In particular, I’m sorry about your friend’s response.
I think the best anyone can do for all of this now is just set a positive intention and send it out boundlessly.
Yes, exactly. It’s called ‘the reversed reality syndrome’.
Saying “Narconon isn’t the Church” is like saying “Pratt and Whitney isn’t United Technologies” (it’s a subsidiary), or in a far more extreme example, “The SS isn’t the Nazi Party;” Maybe not on paper, but the links are obvious and undeniable.
Gary Smith uses unethical and underhanded tactics; Colin Henderson, a former Narconon patient, had his legally-prescribed heart medication taken away against his will and was frequently interrogated by “Ethics Officers.” Henderson went to the press. Fox Oklahoma attempted to interview Smith but Smith refused unless he was allowed to publicise Henderson’s “Ethics Files.”
Why does Narconon keep “Ethics Files” on NON-Scientologists? What are Narconon’s policies on the privacy and confidentiality of its patients? The fact that Gary Smith even suggested this suggests that he’s an immoral Miscavigite and that his main concern is recruiting more “Public” into Corporate Scientology rather than treating drug addicts in need. If it’s happening in Oklahoma, it may be happening in other Narconons around the world.
Wonderful successtory! Well done.
I think that Middlepath Scientology is becoming the Qual Division for Scientology worldwide. Because Qual in Scientology Inc. apparently does not function anymore.
There is a reference where LRH talks about Qual and saying something like: when the Qual function is out, then clients a.o. will take it over. But then, as company, you are way too late.
Anyone knows ?
Totally agree, Ortega is wearing his hat, Rathbun another one. Also the commenters wear a hat in this process.
I see a whole orgboard outside Scientology Inc.
There is much to admire about Tony Ortega. However, he sees himself as the foremost expert on “What is wrong with Scientology”.
Unfortunately, he has a limited view, public scandal. And his motives are slanted to discount any value and to devalue the arena entirely. He speaks as a judge while burdened with such motives, and therefore also contributes to injustice, rather than justice, on many levels.
He dies not possess the capacity to understand Marty’s book. He has never experienced first hand what illustrates valid situations and truths. And so as with his journalism, his book review drags with it his burdensome recklessness with a just analysis. Then, he has fans and he is on payroll. That in itself can make for murky lines with the truth. The majority of his fans in this arena, are people who wish to wholly invalidate any mystical or supernatural causes or promise. They in themselves are a culture yet they do not think it so.
There is a culture who is attuned to the mystical and supernatural as a paralleled dimension. And that culture is ancient here on Earth. There are words, concepts and ideas that can only be translated between these peoples. These do not translate across certain single dimensions. It does not mean these words, concepts and ideas are without merit. This was not made true with the passing of Hubbard’s thoughts. This has always been true.
Nijib,
The greatest win from a day of zazenkai is somehting I’d call the “post-zazenkai glow”. It’s probably from an increase in alpha brain wave activity from sitting in meditation formally for several hours. it’s a great sense of calm. I still feel it 48 hours later. The TRs have to be like this, no?
Other posters,
Sorry for being so far out of sequence, I;m just picking this up at 6 AM EDST. Thanks for letting me post.
I agree. Being on the Great Middle Path allows one to see and understand both sides as you aren’t fixed on either end. Good post!
Gotta say Marty, for me Tonys review did raise an interesting question that I’ve not seen you tackle head-on:
If LRH was just a man with some insight, as opposed to a God, then his work can be furthered. Who’s to say DM isn’t the man for that? I’ve seen you quoted post-CoS saying DM is ‘one of the most capable and intelligent men Ive ever met’.
I suppose I’m just playing devils advocate here, but Tony is right – if tech is alterable/improvable, attacking DM for alterations does raise questions.
All the best
Let it be said that Al Jazeera is still Qatar based which is not exactly a democracy either, and they are not entirely independent. But I do agree that Al-Jazeera is probably the most reliable source of information, as long as the Qatar’s ruling family’s interests are not touched.
Bodil
I understand your point of view completely and I agree with you. Maybe it´s because I´m from Denmark too. In my mind, honor killings, child rape, suicide bombings etc. cannot be justified under any circumstances. They stem from ignorance and lack of education!
Marty,
Your book is correct because it’s accurate. I don’t buy into this concept of the middle path. If only one side were attacking you I’d have the same opinion of your book. I don’t get this viewpoint that what others think determines your credibility. I have the same opinion of the current Church of Scientology as you. I don’t follow the sites that bash Scientology because I think it’s a waste of time. I’m here because I think this is the best chance we have of saving Scientology. Because of my viewpoint some people think I’m extreme and uncompromising. But I don’t care, I’m going to do what I think is right. If you disagree with me, can you point out to any LRH references?
“The zealots on the Miscavige side and the ‘critics’ on the ‘book burner’ side nurture one another as convenient evils to make life combative enough to be interesting.”
I object to the “book burner” label. When news spread of Russia’s ban on LRH books, most anons, including me, were against this move, because this is censorship, which anon rejects.
By the way, you make this out to sound like a duopoly, with corporate Scientology on one side, and Ortega representing LRH critics on the other and you derive from the perceived attacks that you must therefore be in the middle, when in reality, you and the independents are rather a third pole.
Factually, it is very unlikely that I as an LRH critic will be able to change your opinion of LRH to the worse, as unlikely as you will be able to change any critics’ or mine opinion about him to the better. This is why you do not occupy the middle ground. And this is why I do not claim to occupy the middle ground in this matter either. Also, even if one actually occupies the middle ground, this does not always make one right.
Contrary to most anons however, I do not think you are any more evil than Tony Ortega, even though I am on his corner of the triangle. Ortega has his opinion about LRH, and he does not hold back with it so that he can achieve some desired result with you independents. I can understand if you are disappointed with his review. But if Ortega or I wrote a book, we would hardly get a nicer review than you got from him.
Hi Vic,
Great to see you here. I was your senior at NY Fdn in 1968 when you were doing public lectures.
Maurice Green
I know drug & alcohol rehab. I’ve lost family to it. I’ve seen withdrawal that would make Hollywood versions laughable. No, drugs & booze are not easy to kick. But do not be so blind as to think that David Miscavage can’t corrupt and screw up this organization like he has the church. Look. Don’t listen. See for yourself before making blanket statements over how wonderful Narconon can be. They are as corruptible as any other LRH facility with DM at the helm. An ex-girlfriend of mine works there, has for years. I’m just as worried for her as I am for any of their current patients.
I have actually travelled in the Middle East. One thing that struck a reserved Dane was the general interest people took in you. People right off the street would invite you into their houses and serve you tea and ask if you were hungry and immediately serve you the most wonderful meals, even though they were poor and didn´t have much themselves. They would also be concerned as to whether you had somewhere to stay and invite you to stay at their place. The peoples´ friendliness and care was indeed a “culture shock” and an eye opener. All these nice and friendly people suffer because of fanatic terrorists, but most likely they are afraid of protesting too much, as it may cost them their lives and everything they have, and so they tow the party line. I think the solution to fanaticism is knowledge and education!
Bodil,
If I would want to sort out controversial reports, I would also look at what AL Jazeera is reporting about it. I found them to be the least biases, and its reporters are very brave. They are doing a great job. The extremists of BOTH sides (not interested at all in a solution but in keeping the conflict going, insisting on being absolutely “right” and the others absolutely “wrong”) would be all too happy if Al Jazeera would disappear. And their protectors in Qatar have my respect, no matter their believes and live style.
I think the value of Al Jazeera can be best observed when watching reports which are broadcasted by it and then compare them to other media reports.- Karola
PS: I am German, don’t even have “Islamic” roots.:)
We have a sweet spot on a golf club as well.
Criticism of the subject is not criticism of your book, unless you consider the book to have failed unless it forever defuses all criticism of the subject.
Marty, I don’t think I’ve ever called someone hysterical in a disagreement. I may be taking this personally because you’re making it to my wife, but I think your comment is pathetic. Grow up.
There is middle ground between attacking someone and ‘kissing butt’.
Also, how is Tony O ‘acting corrupt’ exactly?
Comparing yourself to Al Jazeera? ROLF
1) I never said the words in your purported quote. 2) The answer to your question is in the book and in the nearly 900 articles on this blog.
“The case about being made to read Scn literature is weak”
http://www.okcfox.com/newsroom/top_stories/videos/kokh_vid_5621.shtml
“Fox 25 spoke on the phone with Regina Ramsey. Ramsey’s daughter checked into Narconon Arrowhead last month for a meth addiction. after calling several rehab facilities in Oklahoma… ‘She said she was forced to read the Scientology bible,’ said Ramsey. “
I’m sorry but I find it ridiculous that you think Tony wishes to ‘invalidate mystical or supernatural causes’.
Quite a few ex-scientologists talk about their disillusionment with the fabled ‘OT abilities’. Coupled with LRHs own declaration on the abilities a ‘clear’ should have, the invalidation isn’t done by Tony. It’s done by promising the unachievable.
If you wish to believe it, that’s your business. More power to you. But you can’t expect other people to show reverence to a belief system that they feel doesn’t deliver what it says on the tin.
Tony makes his disbelief perfectly clear, so when you read his articles you are aware of his perception – you get to see the lens he views Scientology beliefs through.
That is as honest as a journalist can be, and expecting anything beyond that is silly.
“They save lives. No one is “forced” to stay there. In fact, it’s quite the opposite. No one wants a student around if they don’t want to be there.”
http://www.okcfox.com/newsroom/top_stories/videos/kokh_vid_5621.shtml
“After Murphy’s death, Ramsey says her daughter called her, wanting to leave. ‘They say you can leave at any time, but when you go to leave, they tell you, you can’t leave. Even though she was voluntarily checked in and wasn’t under any court order or anything,’ said Ramsey. That’s when Ramsey called the Pittsburg County Sheriff’s Office to step in.”
That constitutes hearsay – and what exactly is the “Scientology bible”?
Can you provide sources for your assertions?
So Tony is acting corrupt? How so?
Anyway, likening Tony Ortega to David Miscavige is so dishonest and lacking good sense it just shows how immature and unserious a thinker you are Marty. Very sad.
I don’t believe you actually understood the book. Hence, your misquotes on it. The book does not attack the alterations of LRH’s technology as such. It talks to the fact that dm uses LRH to achieve the opposite of what LRH intended. Then he alters the materials to hide it. All this done under the name of LRH.
Sure, if he indeed was to improve upon it, and put his name to the improvements, it would have been a different discussion.
Not Aussie yet, but have very close contacts with one. Apparently, I’m a bit of “dag” (a person of an eccentric or amusing nature – Aussie Slang Dictionary presented to me at Christmas past. In the middle of summer!!!)
Kevin Lincus,
Wow, what an amazing conclusion based on your single viewpoint at a single comment you’ve a cursory grasp of at best. Yikes. If THAT is “serious” thinking, methinks the terminals are waaaaay too close together on that thinking machine. Maybe even shorted. Maybe collapsed and “no flow”.
Any “serious thinker” worth attention is aware of the dual nature of this life, the polatiries that make for action. Step outside the illusion, observe the world from another point of view, and this very apt dichotomy Marty has pointed up may, just may become dimly visible to you as what it is.
Nope, it’s peepoo. Appawentwee. Weepee, peepoo too as dey cwy, as in gwizzle, awot.
Corporate Scientologist Gary Smith threatening NON-Scientologist Colin Henderson
Colin Henderson and David Love, another Narconon victim who managed to get Narconon Trois-Rivieres closed down for violations of his and other patients’ rights, discussing threats to reveal their Ethics Files.
https://whyweprotest.net/community/threads/narconon-arrowhead-ceo-gary-smith-will-do-interview-if-colin-henderson-signs-a-consent-for-realease.103043/
Meant to load this video from Fox News. The end of this video links to the other video I accidental posted up and the url-name changes.
Oh. My apologies. You were quoted saying pretty much exactly that in the Truth Rundown:
“He is one of the most capable, intelligent individuals I’ve ever met,” Rathbun said. “But L. Ron Hubbard says the intelligence scale doesn’t necessarily line up with the sanity scale
Taken from:
http://www.tampabay.com/news/article1012148.ece
I am genuinely shocked that they would fabricate a quote from you. I’ve half a mind to message them.
WOW, Youtube is screwy today! I copy and paste the url for the news video and it links to some stupid conspiracy theory vid!
Look up “Fox News 25 Oklahoma Narconon Desperate” on Youtube.
Ah. I think I understand a little better. Thankyou for the clarification 🙂
The quote wasnt from the book, it was from the Truth Rundown series of articles BTW.
Who knows yet? Could’ve been Dianetics, Science of Survival or any other LRH book. You must understand that these were NON-Scientologists; they probably knew nothing about it. I haven’t been Scientology-watching for long. If you handed me a copy of LRH’s “Self Analysis” 2 years ago and told me it was a book that Scientologists read, I’d have probably called it “the Scientology bible” as well.
vajra,
Hey, topic shift coming here…
I’m on the 9th Advanced Clinical Course (ACC) from Dec 54/Jan 55, on a taped lecture of L. Ron Hubbard called BACKGROUND MUSIC TO LIVING, and he poses this for thought:
A being thinks a thought and it doesn’t get acknowledged. Just some thought, like “tree”. No “ack” or “answer from any other live being, nor himself putting another out there to “ack” this thought. It has a flow by the original being going to it, to create it, and that flow gets “stuck” in that one direction. Eventually piling up and getting solid.
Thereby and thereafter the being has a solid memory. Solidity comes about by the lack of “ack” or “answer” to some originated communication, in this case “tree”. The physical universe is, by extrapolation, a “memory”. A facsimile, as defined in these same lectures, is ” a recording in energy of an incident or part of an incident, in the physical universe, that should be. It’s a theta recording in the physical universe, but it’s really made out of energy. I mean, it has mass. It has mass. It has position”. (Definitions Part II).
So, with at least two live beings in actual communication, duplicating and acknowledging (following the Comm Formula of Scientology) etc., then all mechanical/physical universe type thingies, can be resolved. Including the “solidities” of this universe, starting with (in Scn counselling, Dianetic auditing) those facsimiles, those actual physical universe things, that beings make that then follow say Newton’s Laws and so on, but can be looked at, as they are, acknowledged (finally!) and they go “poof” and no longer adversely or any versely affect or effect anything or anyone.
The being can be cause over thought, and thought, solidified IS matter, energy, space and time.
Correction: Definitions: Glossary of Terms Part III, 14 January 1955, for “facsimile”.
And it just so happens that many scientific experiments over the past couple decades are demonstrating increasingly that “and thought, solidified IS matter, energy, space and time” is true.
You should not be shocked. It was unrecognizable outside of its original context. My book, this blog, and my purpose in life are all about providing context.
If you read several of Tony’s articles over the last three weeks, he makes the point, especially in several video interviews embedded in his posts, that Scientology beliefs are different from Scientology practices in the real world; those practices that are evil are the appropriate target for protest and for government action.
While Tony’s comments indicate that he believes that Scientologists have the same rights to their beliefs as any other group, he is also correct in trying to think about the question of the extent to which beliefs end up driving practices. So if I look at the Tone Scale, I see that there’s nothing about love, compassion, self-sacrifice or other emotions that many other religions value highly. And Scientology believes that we are all immortal beings spanning multiple incarnations. So when you put those two facts together, it’s reasonable for an outsider to wonder if these beliefs can over time lead any Scientologist to begin to move towards adopting odious practices like disconnection or “fair game,” no matter who is heading the Church of Scientology.
That is a legitimate question, just like asking (in an extreme case) whether Catholic beliefs, such as the need for priests to remain celibate, inevitably leads to pedophilia on the part of priests. That is not to equate Scientology with an extraordinarily disgusting scandal in another religion, just to point out that the process of questioning the relationship between beliefs and practices is still appropriate, even when it is clear that one individual’s approach (DM’s) to turning beliefs into practices is the biggest problem that Scientology as a religion has today.
When one is hit with suppression or one when gets involved in a games condition, one can get stuck on the barriers and forget about the goals and purposes.
I have chosen to no longer give a damn about DM and the games condition created “over there.” DM is an SP, no doubt about it. Case closed.
I choose to refocus on the adventure of life, with my purpose of spiritual growth and improvement on my dynamics. Is that what LRH wanted? i believe so, but i am not doing it because he said so. It is my choice.
i also choose to use much of LRH tech. Why? Because i have seen it work. It does not matter a bit that there are faults within some of the technology. The fact is, I have benefited from much of the tech and have found nothing that helped me explore life better. Is it the “be all that ends all”? Not for me, but it is a technology that I can use.
DM, nor anyone else for that matter, can kill an idea. The tech will be there for anyone to use, or not use, for time immemorial.
There is a vast difference between getting your face close to butt cheeks and simply being indifferent to the thoughts and beliefs of others. That of course does not at the same time mean being a door mat for abusers.
One of the greatest lessons in my life, in all of life in general, one that has yielded great results, that I am still working on is: don’t take anything personal. Peoples madness, misundertandings, hurtful actions etc. are more about themselves then us. I have been able to win others over to my side sometimes by simply not buying into their story of who or what they think I am.
Setting up resistence and being offended about being misunderstood is the threshold to conflict.
The middle road is the fulcrum. And the fulcrum is in charge of both sides.
Effected by none.
Once upon a time, the Lord Buddha was lecturing under a tree. There was a detracter calling the Buddha all sorts of indecencies. A student noticed that the Buddha was totally unaffected by his diatribe.
After the talk was over and all left except for that disciple the disciple ask,” Master, how is it that you stayed so calm when you were being berated?”
The Master then presented the disciple with an apple and ask the student to hand him back the apple. When the student, with outstretched hand, tried to hand the Buddha the apple, the Buddha did not reach for it.
Then the Buddha said,” if I don’t accept this apple, to whom does it belong.”
Om Peace
Has there been an official response from the chuch of Scientology?
Understood Ronnie, understood. 🙂
Thanks so much for your response. I have friends who are meditators and have shared “wins” with me. I had no intention to offend by using the “scientologese” word “win” [that is why I put win in quotes], I just couldn’t think of how else to ask.
I will answer your question and clarify that I think the path of Scientology is a very subjective one so I can only share what my personal experiences were.
For me, the glow you explain would have been more likely after a spectacular session….lightness and well being and love far out from self…but with the added bonus of moments of additional wisdom that suddenly hit like little light bulbs going off with personal moments of new clarity….like “oh, that’s why…” or, “oh, I won’t behave like that anymore” etc. To use Scientologese again, we would say “cognitions”.
As for TRs, there are many different ones and they are training routines and each one has a specific purpose. They have a purpose which is to train someone to audit so each one addresses something an auditor would need to know and be able to do.
The one called OT TR0 is a drill to train a student to be there comfortably and confront another person with your eyes closed. It would probably be most like meditation I think. But not quite the same purpose. TR 0 is the gradient where you sit facing another person 3 feet away and just be there, looking at the other person with eyes open, nothing else.
These sound silly and look sillier particularly with a whole room of people doing them….but are quite fantastic. Life changing. And, amazingly fun!
That should have been my tip-off that Scientology was “off the rails”,,,it was no longer fun. No longer joyous. No longer expansive.
I really do appreciate your answer to me…please enjoy your glow and I hope it will continue to color your world.
Best.
Marty, the fact that both extremes are not happy with you for opposite reasons does indeed position you somewhat as in the middle of them. But being in the middle of those two does not mean your necessarily in the right place.
There is much to be said for the Middle Path. And although your examples of book attacks and al-jazeera are interesting, its not much more than that to me.
I personally think you are in the right place and on a middle path. I dont think the examples used prove that or are needed to prove it . You have been helping folks from the day you opened this blog. Your doing just fine.
Imagine all the progress and light that has been shone that would NOT have occured had you not embarked on your mission. Reminds me of the story “its a wonderful life”. We all leave our mark and the world would be much different if we had not done what we did, when we did it. We all leave a legacy and its something we each should consider from time to time.
I enjoyed the book immensely. The first part was a summary of much of what I know but that makes it a good read for a non Scn. Then after the first part I found a few things that I did not know that that put things in the right persepctive for me. I feel able to adopt an exterior viewpoint on the subject and everything that has been going on and feel all the calmer for it. I can move on up a little higher now.
As to the sweet spot – or the middle road. We have a saying locally in legal practice that when we hit a settlement in civil litigation that neither side is completely satisfied, then it must be the “right” settlement. I don’t think you ever come to a perfect conclusion or ever really hit the perfect middle spot. But in balancing rights and obligations, you have to do your Solomonic best! Marty, if you have as many adverse critics as you have fans, then you have done good.
As to Al Jazeera I agree that they are pretty even keel in reporting. But everyone of us individually or as a group, has arrived at a viewpoint, and of necessity the flavour of the viewpoint will come through. I still like to look at all sides ( Al Jazeera – BBC – quite good – RT – gives a different perspective again. It always depends on the point from which you view.)
In an attempt to handle my CI last week the CO OSA gave me a couple of Freedom magazines to read – I never saw one before. Now that rag has no credibility.
– The tone is below 2.0,
– no author gives a name,
– no source gives a name,
– there is complete and utter disregard for objectivity
– the vitriolic bile that spews forth is unbecoming of a Church.
– and the content is just……..not believeable.
The CoS says there were a number of senior people in the Sea Org for many years who were SPs. Is this the same group that wants to sell me a course in Human Evaluation? Are they stupid (unable to use the tone scale etc) or are they lying? Do they think we are stupid?
Waiting for the next book……….. .
Paul,
I can understand defense of a loved one. Sincerely. However, your wife is NOT an “hysterical allegation”. That is a thing. Differentiating that thing and your wife as a live being, who may have made that thing but is nonetheless at any point actually that thing, is part and parcel of this thread on that thing.
If he had said Bodil IS hysterical, then of course he’s not being very Korzybski-like and he can be chided for his demantics. But he didn’t.
Now you’ve done the same thing, said his COMMENT was pathetic, and so this is all just about “stuff”, not a character reference now in’it.
YHS,
I was at a rehearsal the other night for a jazz gig and chatting with the baritone sax player while I had a smoke on the veranda. In the course of the chat I mentioned that I was and am a Scientologist. He said “Scientology? My impression of Scientology is that it’s for rich people”.
Now this is a young man with a Masters in music, well travelled, fairly well read (considering the years he spent getting his degree) and his impression, after all of DM’s promotion, is that Scn is for rich people.
I told him that was David Miscavige’s pseudo- church of Scientology. I am an independent Scientologist, the work, the subject is for any being reaching to seek the truth of themselves. He said “sounds like Buddhism”. I said YES, that’s a fundamental study and close cousin. He then said, with complete sincerity “what IS Scientology?”
And that’s about two minutes worth of time with real TWO way communication.
Kevin, ad hominem attacks may also be evidence of “unserious thinking”.
Instead of name calling Marty, why not try backing up your perspective with “serious thinking.” It’s so much more fun to hear your intelligent side that backs up your thoughts with reason.
Wouldn’t you agree?
I think that’s very good advice Bozz. It think it would be a fair statement to say that these organizations (Narconon, Criminon, Delphi, etc.) are NOT completely independent of CoS/DM control.
At the same time, there is no doubt that there are LRH-bashers which simply attack these organizations ONLY because these organizations might actually show the workability of pieces of LRH tech.
Another example of the two extremes.
Ortega seems to be a fundamaterialist. They wont brook any talk of spirits no matter how logically incoherent materialism is as a worldview.
Let us know what happens.
We can hlep if you need terminals to talk to.
dear DARNIT
GOOD LUCK with your refund,i tryed with no success,i went threw the wright
terminals,with no success.on the 18th june i recieved in writing the following.
the church of scientology is a religious not~for~profit charitable organization,
which derives its income fron donations madeto it by parishioners.the income obtained from donations is used to pay the electricity,rent and other
operating expenses.the church does not operate like a business or bank and
funds are not held in trust or drawn upon.When donations are they are not
held on ACCOUNT or on behalf of the parishioner.SO I HAVE NO HOPE
IN HELL GETTING MY MONEY .WHATS IN ACCOUNT.I WISH YOU ALL
THE BEST WITH YOURS.
All of the Narconon books say “based on the works of L. Ron Hubbard”, other than “The Way to Happiness”. So my guess is the booklet that’s being referred to is TWTH. None of the booklets use the word “Dianetics” or “Scientology”, or discuss concepts like “thetan”, “past lives”, etc. It’s not “Scientology literature”.
With that said, I’m all for having this investigated to find out what happened and what went wrong. And if the CoS tries to cover it up, I’m all for doing what we can to expose it. But Narconon Arrowhead HAS been licensed by the Commission on Accreditation of Rehab Facilities (CARF), and to do so, they had to be in compliance on a number of points, including having internal policies which would not allow them to keep patients against their will.
Now, if there were incidents in which staff “held people against their will”, then that would certainly be a violation of those policies, and it needs to be investigated.
Additionally, the fact that Arrowhead reportedly had three deaths in the last year (and apparently four in all of its years), is a red flag that most definitely should be looked into.
Do we know the causes of death?
John,
The Tone Scale is thoroughly about love and compassion. In fact, it’s actually the measure of these things. At the highest end — the highest level of A-R-C (which equals understanding and compassion) — is where we find the highest levels of love and compassion. At the lowest end is where we have hate and despair (i.e. lack of understanding and compassion).
You really should pick up a couple of books on Scientology (“Science of Survival”) and read it with some fresh eyes.
Growing up in England, listening to the BBC, when I came to the USA I was surprised to find that my view of what was going on in the Middle East bore no resemblance to that of Americans — not that I think Britain has any monopoly on truth because it surely does not. It is simply that the BBC is funded and run by individuals more than its US counterparts.
Individuals without an axe to grind tend to to speak more truth. No greater example of that than Thomas Paine. Paine simply spoke the truth wherever and whenever he found it no matter the danger. And speaking the truth is a dangerous game. The British authorities attempted to arrest him, try and hang him for “treason”. The French Revolutionary Council (Robespierre) had him imprisoned with a view to cutting off his head because he thought that the French Royalty should not be murdered by the mob (and key US leaders hoped fervently that Paine died under the guillotine). And when Paine escaped France those same US leaders had him broadly black PR’d by characterizing him as ungodly — the biggest crime of that time period was to not believe in God.. They tried to bury him and his truth and were somewhat successful. But you can’t kill truth so it still exists today.
Jim,
Below are 2 definitions of hysteria:
1.
an uncontrollable outburst of emotion or fear, often characterized by irrationality, laughter, weeping, etc.
2.
Psychoanalysis . a psychoneurotic disorder characterized by violent emotional outbreaks, disturbances of sensory and motor functions, and various abnormal effects due to autosuggestion.
Hysteria involves behavior. If you accuse someone of making an hysterical allegation it implies that the person is hysterical. It’s really insulting for someone to make the accusation that your opinion is hysterical. My younger daughter recently started a job where she had to first take a brief course in manners. One of the things she learned is that you never tell someone to “calm down” because It’s insulting. Describing someone’s statement as hysterical is more severe and also more insulting. It should have no place here.
“Forced to read the Scientology bible”. Trust the media to get it right
and gleefully dripping with controversy. Plus of course trust what an
addict has to say in order to get out of a rehab. The naivety of this
reporter is… well it is just evil.
Sorry Marty, this might sound extreme but that’s how I view it.
Hehe! When I started dating my husband I bought an Aussie Slang Dictionary. Very fun!
That’s too bad Eric.
The cult gave us our money back a couple of years ago but I guess so many people now want it back that they had to come up with this bs.
I think the cult should have to let people know UPFRONT that any “donation” they give will NEVER be given back under any circumstancse.
Then at least people would be warned.
It’s called RIP OFF exchange.
John,
I re-read my response and see it was a bit dismissive of your observations, so let me add a bit more. First, I agree that there is a lack of compassion which permeates Corporate Scientology. And I can see that, for someone who has never studied the philosophy or been around the organization much (or at all), it must appear that the philosophy itself must be the culprit.
As it turns out, Hubbard drew a very sharp distinction between “the applied philosophy” (which was developed early on, includes “auditing”, ideas like A-R-C, etc., and is essentially “Scientology”) and “organizational policy and management” (which was developed in later years and meant to ensure a smooth running organization). With the latter, in the hands of an extremist leadership, there is no doubt that certain of Hubbard’s organizational policies can be used in dispassionate and harmful ways. One would have to ignore the entire philosophy which came before those policies to do so, but it can certainly be done.
In the hands of an EXTREME extremist, even the underlying compassionate philosophy (auditing) can be implemented in such a way that it is destructive.
To really get one’s arms around this whole situation, a person does need to have a good grounding in “the applied philosophy” if only by reading some of Hubbard’s basic books like “Science of Survival”, “Dianetics 55”, “Fundamentals of Thought” and “New Slant on Life”. And then also become familiar with “auditing tech”, of which “Dianetics: Original Thesis” provides a pretty good introduction.
From there, one can start to delve into the subject of “organization and management” (or “the admin tech”) of Scientology, as written in those large green volumes (OEC) by Hubbard. And as mentioned above, this is a very different subject than the “philosophy” of Scientology. But it can then help one understand how Miscavige focused on (or inverted) a handful of those policies — some of them no longer applicable to today’s world and long past their need for retirement — to wreak the destruction that Miscavige has.
——
To give a shorthand version of the above, to maybe put this in perspective, imagine the following analogy: a hospital. The physicians in this hospital use medical technologies, rely on a very deep understanding of human physiology and biology, and are compassionate and kind to patients that are brought there. Now imagine that the hospital, for years, was run by the leading physician. He developed some organizational and administrative tools in the 1960s that he thought would help the hospital run smoothly, make it strong, and weather some rough spots. Then he died. And a failed physician-in-training took over. Never finished med school. Never ran a hospital in his entire life. But thinks he knows it all. And on top of that, he’s had sociopathic tendencies all his life, and has always had a drive for personal wealth and power.
Now ask yourself this question: Would that situation in any way change the value of the underlying “deep understanding of human physiology and biology” that the hospital is supposed to be using in helping its patients?
That is, in fact, a fairly analogous situation to the one that we have with Scientology today.
Margaret, some helpful guidelines given there to
John, and those are certainly nice pointers to the
directions in which affinity can move.
I have read John’s post’s over quite a protracted period, and, without a shadow of doubt, he has absorbed noteworthy and key concepts which
make up the subject, to his credit..
However, IMHO there is one area which has not
received his due attention.
So, John, if I may ask you directly; Why have you
omitted to actually participate in the direct application
of the subject, to yourself, or another??
It’s almost as though you want to learn about flying
in an aircraft, but are scared to actually board one
to experience real flying for yourself???
What gives brother?
Calvin.
Jim Logan,
You missed the point or were trying to be nice not pointing out that Paul also said to Marty “Grow up.” which is more than just about “stuff”, it’s a character reference.
Thomas Paine believed in God. He criticized religions and “THE” Word of God in his book “The Age of Reason”. My feelings are mutual. I highly recommend reading this timeless book. It can be read online here;
http://www.deism.com/theageofreason.htm
Safe,
+1
> “It makes me sick to think this is atypical of most corporate Scientologists.”
I’m sure you meant typical instead of atypical.
Atypical: Not conforming to type; unusual or irregular.
Typical: Being or serving as a representative example of a particular type.
Mr. Rathbun,
I just finished your book, “What’s Wrong With Scientology” first I should say that I am not a Scientologist, but I have been reading your blog for some time. I must tell you that your book is the first I have read that actually attempts to explain what is a very difficult subject to learn about for a person who has not studied it. It has been extremely difficult for me to learn what Scientology is actually about and the steps needed to get you to whatever spiritual enlightenment you seek. It is a very ambiguous religion and even when you ask questions about the subject the answers you receive generally tell you nothing. I feel as if I have a better understanding of what Scientology is and how a person gets there after reading.
I do have a question and pardon my ignorance on the subject. I understand that you wrote that the state of clear is not a permanent state, and because of the way that Corporate Scientology progresses members through to the state of clear may actually cause more engrams in a person how does one maintain that clear state when the use of Dianetics is forbidden on those that have been clear or on OT’s? I hope I am making sense here, again it is a difficult subject for those of us who have never studied the subject. Also I wondered for those who have gotten away from Corporate Scientology and have continued in the Independent realm, do they have to repeat everything because of the Black Dianetics they were exposed too?
I truly enjoyed your book, you are clearly a very intelligent man. I look forward to the next book.
Thank you.
I loved that quote Jim. Thanks for posting it.
It’s weird, in 31 years I’ve never heard of anyone having a good auditing experience at ASHO. It’s only a handful of accounts but it seems to always have an outpoint. Like my buddy that they charged $2000+ over his limit on his credit card by transacting $49 a whole bunch of times and he didn’t even like the auditing. And several other times where they come up with some bad programming for the person to do unneeded actions. In their defense I have heard several accounts of great wins on the SHSBC (before GAT.)
Mike B. you should know that Mr Smith has dedicated his life to help
addicts get off of drugs and alcohol for now close to 40 years. The
amount of sweat, blood and tears he has put into this would be hard
for an average person to phantom. No personal riches, very little sleep
(many nights woken up because of some emergency) working from
early morning to late at night 7 days a week… I could go on but you
get the point by now.
The ethics files are simply a documentation (as every drug facility,
rehab center or hospital has) of the patients progress, any relapses,
getting other patients to take smuggled-in drugs etc.
Possibly this “Colin” has an extensive file but the main thing is to
remember when you attack someone who pours his heart out to
help you, there is something underneath all that attack mode.
I got the ‘other’ out last night. (I gently copied and pasted data from here and had he/she read the summaries over a period of time) We will be in hiding for three weeks or I will have him write up his story which includes being hit every day across the head for six months. Taking he/she off to safe house today. I will be here on my own. LOL (OSA & COS backoff or we will fight)
Eric,
The CoS gave us all clear statements that they would return “money on account” if it was given for services (auditing or training). There are specific public CoS policies on this, and they made it a condition of getting their 401(c) IRS ruling in 1993. If the CoS is now refusing to give you money on account (for which you have statements, presumably), then that is definitely actionable legally (in my humble, non-lawyer, opinion). It took me a year, but in 2010, I got a large’ish five-figure sum back from a southern California CoS. Contact me, and I’ll send you my step-by-step write-up on how I did it. mesamarg@earthlink.net . (The offer is also open to anyone else that is interested).
I didn’t have to ask for my SP declare or use the do-it-yourself kit below.
One of my very best “friends” just defriended me and my 2-D on Facebook so I’m assuming she got some official word. I haven’t received or heard anything. Not from the “church” or my “friend”, no comm, no attempt even to try to salvage me from hell. Just gone.
FWeeee,fweee,fweee(blip) Baggghpapes
f’ theeee ‘n meeee, meee, meee……
Whitttt? Ochh…Noo ..Angggus! B’gorrrah!
Nooo y’ev g’n ‘n rooooo’ind th’ frrriend ‘shp!
‘und poooot y’errr kil’t bach u’n —y’rrr me’kn
th’ led’ies verrrry nerrr-vous. arooond yooo!
Blethrrrrin, Sacchh-a-nachh!!!Whittt???
Whittt yoooo trrry’ng t’ say then?? Noooo!
Noooooo Scotccch f’ l’ll Mac Damage!!!!
Aye doooont car-r-re whittt he sez!!!
That’s m’ Fayn’l worrrrr-d u’n th’ materrrr!
…….(overheard from a thoroughly pissed
off premium manufacturer of the finest
Scottish Whiskey —Glenmorgan MacTavish)
Thanks. In my opinion the answer lies in Chapters 14, 15, and 16.
K,
Now, that is the Oracle’s viewpoint and possible propensities and interests, i.e., mysticism, magic, various and sundry manipulations of “dimensions”, and such, and is therefore an individual take on Scientology and how this subject deals with such areas. This used to be called “Para-Scientology”, that bin of things that are subject to further test etc.
OK, I’m interested in your view of my observations using Scientology, and how you would take on T.O’s view of this: considerations, thought, takes rank over mechanics, physical universe. “Mind” is over “matter”.
That concept is straight out of Hubbard’s CREATION OF HUMAN ABILITY work.
Thank you, I will revisit those chapters.
Those were hysterical accusations, according to definition one. Haven’t heard from her on my query about it. Makes me wonder what it is your are trying to accomplish here.
Picanin,
You raised a number of questions;
“The CoS says there were a number of senior people in the Sea Org for many years who were SPs. Is this the same group that wants to sell me a course in Human Evaluation? Are they stupid (unable to use the tone scale etc) or are they lying? Do they think we are stupid?”
1) Sentence one… ….YES and there still are!
2) Answer ………………YES. They want to sell you anything they can as long as no delivery is required. (witness the TWTH Olympics fiasco)
3) Answer………………..YES. They are stupid and simply following orders.
4) Answer………………..YES. Lying is the standard out flow. Truth must be avoided at all costs.
5) Answer………………..YES. They consider that public are DOLTS. Unfortunately I (and by extension we) do fit that description based on the years of support I gave all the while having a gut feeling that all was not well in this sector of the universe. It has taken some rather shocking events to finally see the light of day and stop supporting the corrupt CO$. But that is now done.
I no longer fear any aspect of the CULT. The apparent power is only achieved from those willing to be connected to the leach called David Miscaviage and minions. Good riddance!!!!
This is a bit off topic, and perhaps asked and answered elsewhere, but here are my burning questions:
Is Tommy Davis the heir apparent to DM’s throne, or just the spokesmodel?
>>Can a sociopath designate an heir apparent? Is it in their nature? I think not, but I’m asking.
Is Tommy Davis just another one of DM’s bitches being set up to take the fall when the time comes?
>>The fall will come. The trajectory towards same is ever increasing. I expect Tommy Davis to be the head on the pike for the mass media, since he has been cultivated as the face of Scientology.
Is Tommy Davis a sociopath himself or is he simply in DM’s valence?
>>I hope he’s just in his valence, then there will be some hope for him. Either way, I’m pretty sure he’s doomed.
If Tommy Davis is a sociopath like DM himself, is he planning a coup like DM did to LRH and Pat Broeker?
>>A smart sociopath would. Not that it has to be said, considering the paranoid persona we are dealing with (and as if I care), but, “Watch your back, DM.”
There can only be one Emperor with no Clothes. Somebody probably has to go. Somebody has probably already been set up to go.
Maybe it’s Tommy that needs to watch his back.
Just saying.
I don’t know any of the facts surrounding the deaths of the people who have died while undergoing drug rehab programs at Narconon Arrowhead. That’s what investigations are supposed to uncover. I look forward to learning the results of those investigations. I will simply repeat my belief that people should not die at drug rehab centers. I don’t expect drug rehab is an easy experience. But if I admitted anyone or persuaded anyone to admit themselves to a drug rehab center, I certainly would expect that they would not die while undergoing treatment.
Dear Marty,
I posted the same comment on Village Voice.
An idea I have would be that Tony Ortega and Marty Rathbun sit down, talk together and write a Book in unison about the real history of Dianetics/Scientology and L. Ron Hubbard. Perhaps they even could do a movie about it.Both can agree on the abuses of the Church of Scientology and want them to stop, this would be a basic agreement. Both have very inquisitive minds, are of high integrity, are fact checkers, have mutual respect and can accept it if they they have divergent opinions on certain themes. Both have a natural talent as writers, if they aren’t genious. They can present complex subjects in a comprehensive fashion to the average reader. Both, when they find out they are wrong can admit it and and talk about it honestly.
Tony has some false ideas about Scientology and should investigate more about it, and Marty could perhaps help him. For example his idea about that Scientology learns that Kids are adults in a little body and keeps reporting about it and the ongoing abuses of kids.
Nowhere in the literature of Dianetics and Scientology you’ll find this concept. This idea was invented by some lazy parents that calls themselves Scientologists. I would like to explain this further and tell about my own experience.I raised my 3 kids with Scientology Tech and the most important part of it was „ Child Dianetics“ – a Book that doesn’t exist anymore in the C.O.S, as it would forbid all the nonsense that was done to kids and is still done today. There I learned to not bother my kids with Scientology, Dianetics or auditing as long as they are doing well in life and if they don’t express any interest in it. So by being in constant communication with them and talking to death any arising problems, they just were doing well and there wasn’t any need to bother them with Lrh. We teached them honesty, to be respectul, not believing everything what other people tell, but to think for themselves, to care about their bodies and live a healthy life and the most important was to demonstrate to them that they are free beings and can achieve everything they want if they work hard for it. And that their Successes they have in life and the talents they are demonstrating are a privilege they have and should use to always help others and not be arrogant. All 3 kids are above average and are doing amazing things in their lifes .
Whenever we wanted to show them what LRH has written the answer was: „ but daddy this is common sense, nothing new, any intelligent person would do it like this“. Many times I was just speechles when I heard this and asked myself if I did something wrong. But time proved I didn’t. I teached them a way of thinking and handling of life as I dreamt of one day I’ll be able to do it myself by going up the bridge. And the most funny part of it was that my kids got me out of he church of Scientology by asking from me that I apply the things I teached them their entire LIfe . It could be that Scientology saved me from Scientology ? I send my first born into a Scientology school to quickly take him out again as I found out that they didn’t apply real basic Scientoklogy and my son was just bored, I sent him to another Scietology School to find out the same thing and the staffs there were mostly Ex-SOs wanting to make money to pay back their freeloader bill, but weren’t really qualified as teachers. I gave up the idea of a Scientology school (Til today I never saw a real one, just schools applying a little bit of Lrh). When he was 10 years old I sent him to the Org to do the BSM (basic study manual) course. He didn’t have any big wins on it and just meant it’s common sense, any Intelligent person would do it like this…… I went onto courseand observed him. He was lying in his chair and just seemed bored, but the supervisor was very happy about him. I asked the supervisor what’s going on ? He meant „your son is so intelligent, he gives amazing definitions of words and he knows a lot“. This supervisor was in total awe and couldn’t even see that he is totally bored and not interested. So after my son finished his course I asked him how he did it. He just meant „I always told the staffs what they wanted to hear, so they just let me finish and were happy“. I never sent him into a Church of Scientology again as I knew he just could see through the staffs and sense their motivations (stats). Today I’m so happy I never sent him again.
With my 2 other kids it was different when they were nearly grown up they wanted to do courses in the Church and I supported them. Now, imagine young adults that are used to think for themselves go into a Church of Scientology. It was a horrible experience. The staffs there tried to break them and get them under control, to become brave sheeple. When I was observing this I realized this has been done to me in my 38 years of being a member and I wouldn’t accept they do the same to my kids. In the beginning I was fighting against it, but soon I knew I’ve to get my kids and my wife out very fast. This I did. What I learned in Scientology saved me from the Church of Scientology. My whole family is mostly done with Scientology but all are doing very well in their life !
To come back to why Scientologists have some funny ideas about education in treating their children as adults. My wife once started a group with Scientogists that had kids to form a Dianetics Centre as described in „Child Dianetics“. But what a schocking experience for her when she started it. Of about 15 pairs (parents) none has ever read the book „Child Dianetics“ but all were 100% sure of applying Scientology tech to their children and knew everything about the raising of children. We could observe that most of those parents, didn’t themselves have a real education and were just lazy (why should I read books in my free time, I read enough on course)and just wanted their kids to grow up fast. This is quite sad and this attitude is extorted by the church of Scientology, as to raise kids very well costs lots of money and time, and it would be impossible for normal parents to have the time and money that the church wants from them. So the church will never teach them „Child Dianetics“.
There are many thousands children of Scientology parents around the world that were never abused and were well raised, but Tony doesn’t know about them. Why should he ? I just ask Tony to make some more fact checking and not report just the way it fits into his bs (belief system). Marty or others could help him to even go more to he bottom. But also I’m 100% sure that Tony could help Marty a lot with his criticism. It could come out a fascinating book or movie and a truth nobody expected.
Also they could perhaps work together with the Pschological departement of an university and do some scientific research about for example what happens when people are audited on the objectives and…and..
I would be very curious about what the team effort of those 2 different people would produce and if they would be able to reach a final conclusion or synthesis.
The great middle path ?
If we have the opportunity to two-way comm with a entrapped PTS Scientologist in the church, shouldn’t we? Isn’t that one of the missions in what we’re trying to do, help them see?
Right now, I’m in two-way comm with a corporate Scientologist who believes in David Miscavige on Amazon. His handle is “GoodStanding”. I could use some help from somebody to join me in my conversation with them. So far, he/she is continuing the conversation so I assume the Thetan is still reaching for truth.
I’ve already responded to their latest response to the best of my ARCability, but perhaps somebody else may be able to do better than my response.
Here’s what he/she replied back to me;
“In response to your query re our expansion, a temporary slow down in training and auditing is hardly anything to shake me when I know it is so more focus can be put on real expansion. With the tech restoration programs, gearing up of ideal orgs and super power, push on the campaigns to handle psychiatric abuse, illicit drug use, illiteracy and immorality, it is pretty clear to me that we are gearing up for MAJOR expansion, all of which is under the leadership of our perfectionist and truly dedicated leader, David Miscavige.
I am not an extremist, but I do know when I am on to a good thing and I plan on sticking it out and urge any former scientologists to do the same. When our real expansion occurs, and it will, you will want to be on the right side of the fence recieving all the gains that the Church has to offer.
Rathburn may sound appealing now while is attacking in his usual charismatic, seemingly selfless way, but as we get bigger and bigger and he realises his efforts are futile, he will gradually withdraw like so many other squirrels have before him and if he has any sense realise what a crime he has committed against humanity. Don’t let yourself go down that path, and our door is always open for you.”
Can somebody else join in and help? We win one person at a time.
http://www.amazon.com/review/R2W6CIBLK4TOQW/ref=cm_cr_pr_cmt?ie=UTF8&ASIN=B008EMF628&nodeID=&tag=&linkCode=#wasThisHelpful
I have recently been in 1:1 personal contact with a well-known independent Scientologist with solid auditing training. I had considered on my next trip to this person’s area actually trying out an auditing session or two, just to get a sense of how that part of “the tech” might work. It hasn’t been a priority just yet due to professional responsibilities and the attendant difficulty of scheduling a trip to that part of the world.
I should point out that I’m a skeptic but not a cynic; in my mind, the key distinction is that, though he may be very hard to convince, a skeptic is willing to be convinced if enough credible facts are against his current suppositions; a cynic has already decided and no amount of evidence will convince him otherwise.
Unlike many on other discussion forums, when someone claimed “significant wins” in auditing without being specific, I was skeptical, but when she provided highly detailed data of what happened in her life shortly after her first course of auditing, I cheerfully and promptly admitted that it was obvious to conclude that the benefits she got were directly due to auditing. I reserve the right to be skeptical that someone who can’t detail specific changes in their life following a course of auditing other than “I felt better” is getting any benefit, but I do continue to be willing to believe that people can get significant positive results from auditing in some circumstances, just as is possible using other self-help techniques.
After reading about this “church” for the past two weeks or so, at first I was sure it would take a long time for Miscavige to fall from grace. However, after reading and watching the interviews (Ridner, Rathbun, Cook, Beghe, and a plethora of others), I no longer feel that way. Just finished Tony Ortega’s article on the independent mission in Haifa – albeit, it is small (50 members) it is huge that they have left the “church”. One mission turns into two and two into three and so on. People who are afraid need a place to go.
Katie Holmes will be on Broadway later this year and this alone will keep the news of Scientology and its abusive leader alive. So that is excellent. She doesn’t have to say a word. Must be driving Miscavige crazy – if it is possible to get any crazier. Just the fact that Holmes is now living in New York and will be out and about keeps the “church” news and abuses alive and that is a great thing.
Also checked out Scientology’s Freedom site, and it is inconceivable that they would put something up like this. Anyone, anyone looking at this site would say immediately that there is something seriously wronnnnnnnnnng with this church. It is worse than the Globe – one of those weekly papers that has articles like Martian Boy Exists.
I would also like to add that after listening to several interviews with Mike Ridner and Jason Beghe, I learned something extremely important – they do not let anger carry into their lives. They are speaking about what happened to them, yet they have great humor – along with Tory C. She was just hilarious when she took the mike back from a scientologist at one of her earlier appearances, because he was not following format and was speaking to soon. I am sitting at my computer watching these interviews and every so often I am collapsing into laughter.
In closing, I am not a believer in any religion – an atheist from the get, but I wish you all the best – you are a wonderful group of people – survivors -and that alone makes you worthy of GREAT RESPECT.
It would be nice to see these independent missions coming to fruition so that you can practice what you believe in and have others join you without the insanity of Miscavige. I think it will happen sooner than expected.
Solace Boyd
New York City
Margaret,
I appreciate your attempts to enlighten John P as to the differences between the COS and the applied philosophy of LRH. But I’m afraid it’s a losing battle. You see, John P leads a double life, one here at Marty’s blog and another over at the Village Voice. Just today, he commented ….”quackery such as ‘nerve assists’ or ‘touch assists’.”
Also, the other day he referred to LRH as “batshit crazy” which is apparently an entirely new level of crazy that I’m not yet familiar with.
Here on Marty’s blog, I become an admirer of John P’s comments because of his clear thinking and skill with the language but I think it’s important to know where he might actually be coming from.
Awesome, Jim Logan!!
I would say that Mike is correct.
I would only suggest that what this actually means is that … David Miscavige and Tony Ortega are on the same side. They both want, intend and design their actions to destroy scientology in all its forms. Miscavige has destroyed the Public’s reach for “Scientology” by successfully converting the “Church” of Scientology into a soul effacing cult. Ortega is doing precisely the same thing … identifying “Scientology” with that mind numbing soul effacing cult which calls itself the “Church of Scientology”. As with all good polemicists, they each spend 99% of their time, energy, money and resources on defining what “IS” Scientology. And, the two of them actually AGREE … DM claims that DM is Scientology, and Tony Ortega actually endorses this piracy because it gives Ortega an easy target.
What they do not agree upon, obviously, is whether “Scientology-DM” is good and wholesome. DM claims that it is, Tony Ortega claims that it is not. This is not an argument anyone will EVER win, any more that the Jews and the Palestinians (those who are not also Jews) will EVER agree upon who is the “rightful” owner of the Gaza Strip. It is a little like the Democrats and the Republicans. It actually doesn’t matter, much, who wins the elections, since each “party” only matters in opposition to the other one. David Miscavige only matters to Tony Ortega because David Miscavige is a convenient, and utterly willing Villain. Tony Ortega (and the rest of the Press) only matters to David Miscavige because the Press (like the “Psychs”) provides something to RIDGE against. WIthout one, the other is vapid, pointless and of no interest — this a two-terminal universe.
Ridging against David Miscavige, as I have said before, is a waste of time. The Church of Scientology is gone, dead and done. Efforts and money would be better spent on just USING the scientology and dianetics we all know and love. Call it what you want. Just use it. And, stop bewailing the fact that your former “friends” are still “stuck” there. Take LRH seriously about such matters … they caused it, it is their responsibility.
Yours, and mine, is to do what we can to save those who can be saved … realizing that our mission is not a failure just because we failed to “Clear the Planet”. All that ever was, anyway, was an advertising slogan. No one — and I include LRH in this in my opinion — ever thought we were going to “Clear” the planet with “Scientology of the 20th Century.”
We’re just getting started, there’s lots more to do. Do it, and ignore Mr. Miscavige.
Got as far as the joint book, bad idea. I hope people can get comfortable with the idea that people are unique one from the other.
Incidentally, I was in discussions not long ago with Chuck Beatty, probably the premier scholar in the world of the Management volumes, about taking a look at them from the perspective of a modern management consultant. The idea was to see if the ideas there held up in light of what we believe today about how organizations should work. I managed to find a copy on line and started to slog through all 2,675 pages of the four volumes. There are some places where Hubbard got it right about a number of things, right by the standards of his time.
Several of those things continue to be true today, while others are far removed from current thinking. As an example of something that may have been correct at one point but is now obsolete in the rest of the world, I looked at the notion of the “org board,” which was adapted from the Table of Organization in the Navy.
In Hubbard’s texts, he runs together two ideas that today would be kept quite separate. An organization chart today captures the person responsible for a general functional area; that is all it does. It does not specify the ways that an organizational unit relates to other units in the low-level details of delivering products. Hubbard’s discussion tries to mix the org chart with “process flow,” how the unit relates to other units in terms of how information and/or products move between units that must cooperate in delivery. Today, because of the advent of large computerized systems, nobody would think of those two ideas on the same piece of paper. They live in totally separate domains, and the org chart is increasingly almost an afterthought.
If an organization adheres strictly to what Management Volumes say about org boards, they’ll be sacrificing decades of ongoing research on how to make organizations more efficient, and that ends up costing the org in labor efficiency. By the way, the lack of labor efficiency in the current corporate organization, is perhaps a key driver of the exploitative practices for putting people into the Sea Org; were the corporate organization able to reinvent its organizational structure from scratch, it would be far more productive, and thus far more successful — it could redeploy people far more effectively than it does now.
Note that I am working from memory on the basis of a Saturday’s reading done a couple months ago; I may not have described Hubbard’s writing on Org Boards with verbatim quotes, but I guarantee you that most other management consulting people who look at Hubbard’s writing on Org Boards would conclude something similar.
The point of all this is: beliefs such as the infallibility of Management Tech can lead indirectly to practices that are inefficient and that hinder an organization from reaching its goals. And that, in an era of imploding statistics, has led to abusive practices that are part of the evil of the corporate entity.
The inability to change is fatal to any organization. So while I am in complete agreement that Miscavige is damaging the organization with his incompetence and craziness to an extraordinary degree, I would respectfully suggest that once he is no longer at the helm, there will be a staggering amount of work required to fix the corporate organization, and it indeed may not be fixable after almost 30 years of Miscavige. If it is fixed, I think it would require abandoning a significant portion of Management Tech, which may have been a good try at running an organization 60 years ago, but which is no longer regarded as the best way to do it today. I don’t know if those that would remain post-Miscavige would be willing to examine and to change the role of Management Tech in healing the organization.
Reaching back to your hospital analogy, the question is what needs to happen for the hospital to get back to delivering good care at reasonable prices? Just getting rid of the guy who caused the problems and replacing him with someone closer to the founder in ability may very well not get the job done. There would almost certainly need to be a lot of thought given to making the repaired organization look very different than the one that the founder created; its success for its time is not enough to guarantee success decades later.
Said yet another way: good policies of the past may no longer work, no matter how good they were at the time they were created.
Jim,
Thanks for sharing. It sounds as though there is a lot of thought provoking content within the ACCs in particular. I am definitely interested.
The nature of thought itself and how it relates to our world is certainly an interesting subject, and something that Buddhism deals with extensively. Most of the methods and techniques deal either directly or indirectly with how we relate to the energy of our thoughts and emotions.
It definitely makes sense that there needs to be an outlet or discharge, and communication is a perfect way of achieving that. It’s widely accepted in Buddhism that thoughts aren’t necessarily a problem in themselves, but the way in which we allow them to accrue brings about karma and its traces, along with the “karmic vision” of our outer world, which is to say that what we’re seeing isn’t necessarily an accurate reflection of what’s there; rather, it’s a very heavily conditioned illusion.
This conditioning is so strong that a mere glass of water, as seen by us, is said to be perceived as nectar, blood, pus, molten lava, and so on, by other beings.
To an enlightened being, the same phenomena of water is directly seen as insubstantial white light, and similarly too for everything that exists. For them, as well as advanced individuals on the spiritual path, experiences don’t necessarily cease but they no longer have the same power to harm.
So, by whatever means we can use to desolidify ourselves (and by extension, others), and start seeing things as they are without accumulating further problems and limitations, it doesn’t really matter what we call ourselves.
Personally, Id love to see some objective psychological experiments performed with some Scientology drills. The problem is both trademark and the viciousness that CoS have shown towards academics who discuss their works. Just ask Raj Persuad. No academic is going to touch anything church-related given how it may result in the early termination of their career.
You raise some really interesting points about ‘Child Dianetics’ though. Thanks for that.
Hi Jean,
May I suggest that you get a copy of Hubbard’s ‘Self Analysis’ and follow the instructions. Scientology is an ‘applied philosophy’. Just studying or reading about it tends to just go round & round as there isn’t really anything else with which you can compare it to out in the world.
The major stumbling block in understanding it is that one needs to evaluate it against something similar (?). The subject is about the mind & life, both of these things you have already and all Scientology & Dianetcis actually does is show you a way of viewing it for yourself. That’s all an auditor really does – they ask you to look at your own mind and the life you have. Please don’t buy into someone telling you what is wrong with you, as it generally isn’t true or applicable. Instead, this is method of discovery with you doing the ‘knowing’.
May I also suggest you google “The Auditor’s Code of Scientology” which may give you a better understanding of what is needed to accomplish this act of looking.
It is a great pity that such a technology has been corrupted within the Church but it does work with or without their co operation.
I like your book altought I have not red it.
You wrote it out of inner purpose.
CD
Wayne, I’ll go over there and post something, but in my view this guy is 100% pushing propaganda and it’s quite likely there is no thetan there at all really observing anything. Possibly he is a hired gun posting the official propaganda lines. What he posted sounds entirely too pat.
You could write to the “Bezige Bij” bookpublishing company in the netherlands for publishing a dutch translaton.
I must say this. I was not impressed about the translatons in dutch of the 3 Hubbard books I found in my city’s library.
Those back in the day translations SUCK big time.
CD
Go to Google Translate, select the language you want a page translated to, enter the URL of the page in the box, and it will translate the whole page.
Is it just me or is this article getting more TA and H.E. & R. than usual? TA= Tone Arm = Auditing Term that means the process is working. H.E. & R = Human Emotion & Reaction = Usually comes up when someone has said or done something that touches a nerve.
I think the sweet spot is a good place to be. Tony O has made a career out of trashing Scientology. He’s clearly not in a place where he could give the tech a fair shake. If he did, he would probably go into a spin because it would destroy his stable datums. As for the C of S response. They do a great job of making themselves look like a weird cult whenever they take shots at former members just because of the strange nomenclature they use. They continually demonstrate zero grasp of ARC. ARC = Fundamental Components of Understanding = Affinity, Reality & Communication.
John, I think you’d be surprised at how many Scientologists (especially of the independent variety) would agree with what you’ve written. The “admin tech” has some great ideas. But it’s not “the philosophy of Scientology”, per se. And I don’t think a large portion of it was written with the idea that “this is inviolate religious scripture” in mind.
I think if independent Scientologists (of the future) stick to the intent and the spirit of what Hubbard was aiming for in the policies — and also have the courage to confront that he didn’t always get it right or perfect in the admin world (at least not by today’s standards) — we’ll have a far better chance of making actual Scientology — the underlying philosophy and practice of auditing — succeed.
And the missing context is that Miscavige was being compared in “intelligence” to Hitler and Stalin — both intelligent, but “stark, staring mad”.
There’s a think in current society that if someone is smart, they must be sane. The recent massacre in Colorado shows us how foolish that assumption sometimes is: the killer was a PhD candidate.
I would not hope to appear to be anything but, “silly and ridiculous” to you. I was not talking to you though. I was talking to people that would hear me. Why waste your time and energy responding to somebody who does not translate a reason or understanding to you ?
Dr. Faust, I think you are quite right in characterizing Marty and the Independents as a Third Pole. They are similar to what in Gurdjieff’s teachings was termed the Third Force, the “Holy Reconciling”. The other 2 forces being the Holy Affirming and the Holy Denying. (Gurdjieff did frame things in religious terms).
However LRH also pointed out, in non-religious terms, that although he described our world as a “two-terminal universe”, in fact a third element was actually necessary to hold the positive and negative terminals apart in order for space to exist. LRH called this “the base”, as in an electric motor.
Gurdjieff’s Third Force has characteristics reminiscent of Theta, the reconciling power of which is well known.
There could also be an argument made that the missing context is WHY Marty considers DM ‘intelligent and capable’…
Kwyjibo,
LRH’s work is being furthered right now by Marty and many other Independents and by many of those who left long before.
It is not being furthered by Miscavige and those still in the CoS, by and large. It is being reversed. That is what all the defections are about, and what all these postings are about.
Kwyjibo,
Here you are talking about “beliefs”, when you ought to be using the practical applications of scientoiolgy to improve conditions.
Are you aware that these practical applications actually exist and are effective?
That would really be a 1.1 argument.
I am not discussing para Scientology. Sundry manipulations? For real Jim? Listen to the Universe tapes for an understanding of parallel dimensions.
Covert Hostily?Really?
No, it wouldflesh outhe caricatures of DM put forward bythe churchand the indies(psychopath vs.saviour). DM is characterised as one or either. Fact is there is probably a ‘middle road’ (see what I did there?) that wouldflesh out hischaractera bit- this wouldhelp explain WHYpeople choose tostay in hi inner circle- everytime they think of leaving, DM does something half-decent that convincedpeople to stay.
Marty, excuse neforsaying this, but you come across as rather terse.Assomeoneinterestedin the religion, but with NO intention of steppingfoot into anofficial church,I figuredyour blogwas a goodplace to seek answers. Labelling me hostile because I want more info onDM just seems… Well,at oddswith the friendlyscientologistsIvemet,and the inclusiveatmosphere they generate.
Apologies If I offended you, and U get that aomeoe in your situation has developeda bitof a ‘siege mentality’,but criticising me because I want a few answers… Isn’t that incrediblylike the CoS?
Yes, really. No need to apologize. Like my mama used to say, 1.1 is as 1.1 does.
Also, apologies for the poor diction in my last post. Thats iPods for you…
If anyone else reading this knows anywhere else on the interweb I can ask some questions relating to CoS/DM, or new people entering the religion who dont want to enter a CoS facility, please let me know 🙂
Thanks Valkov,
Is there a network of independents in the UK do you know?
By the way, Hubbard’s definition of magic is an awareness of forces and conditions. Take a look at the ethics book. Take a look at the grade chart, CONDITIONS is at clear. Listen to some tapes about abilities in handling forces. Magic is in every way part of the Scientology package.
This is not “Para” Scientology. And please do not step up to translate for me or explain me. You don’t get what I am saying or who I am. So it just comes across as an alter is.
Hey Valkov,
Honestly? No. My father was into the Church for a while in the 80s, but we dont talk about ‘those things’. I read Dianetics and was very intrigued. I would love to know where to take my study from here.
I refuse to be audited in a CoS setting, given their reputation for digging these things out years later. What would you suggest I read/do next? I am debating taking the Communications (?) Course, given some of the things Ive read about it and the cheap price, but given 1) the amount of LRH material, 2) differing and altered editions of the materials (’91 revision, GAT revision of LRH texts) I have NO idea where to go next. Anything you suggest would be helpful.
Oracle – my issue was with you implying Tony doesnt/cant appreciate ‘the mystical/supernatural’. Do you know him personally? What religion is he? If you found out he was a devout Catholic/Buddhist/Christian, would your view of him change?
Apologies if I didnt communicate that well. It just seemed you were denigrating the man because he didnt like Martys book.
“apologies if I offended you”………For real? Your purpose here is to humiliate people. As much as you may claim license to ridicule others for their curiosity with the supernatural, I see that as a holier purpose than humiliation of their fellow human beings. I do not see you on the higher ground you imagine yourself to stand on.
And the fact that you have joined my name with “mysticism”, HUH????? I have no idea where that comes from. I have never written the word before now. I have never spoken it or promoted it or identified myself with it any way in this arena or in this life. I have no idea why you would slip that brand beside my thoughts words or reasoning. I have nothing to do with mysticism. That is not a “possible propensity” of mine. I have no idea why you would announce such.
“The naivety of this reporter is… well it is just evil.”
It wasn’t the report said that; it was Regina Ramsey, the MOTHER of the girl who was being held against her will and had to call the police to get her out. She even commented about it on Narconon Arrowhead’s Facebook page; it was lit up all weekend with messages of outrage over Stacy’s death. Unfortunately, Narconon Arrowhead has since disabled public commenting and deleted it along with all critical posts.
“Possibly this “Colin” has an extensive file but the main thing is to
remember when you attack someone who pours his heart out to
help you, there is something underneath all that attack mode.”
How does taking away someone’s legally prescribed medication help someone? How does giving large doses of niacin to people who may already have damaged livers from drug and alcoholism abuse help them?
I haven’t heard anything good about Gary Smith; everything I’ve read and seen about him tells me he’s been poisoned by Corporate Scientology. Unfortunately, something’s wrong with Youtube today in that everytime I copy and paste a url for a video, it links to the wrong video.
Look up “Narconon’s ties to Scientology exposed – part 3” where Smith threatens to have a reporter fired for discussing Narconon’s links to the CoS.
Look up “Fox News 25 Oklahoma Narconon Desperate” where Smith threatens Henderson.
Look up Fox News 25 Oklahoma Narconon Arrowhead Protest” where creepy cameramen come out to harass protesters who were there to mourn their son who died at Narconon. Who else but Smith could have ordered these clowns out?
Henderson’s house was also broken into and his revolver and ammunition was tampered with; he suspects OSA.
https://whyweprotest.net/community/threads/fair-game-vs-colin-henderson-good-luck-with-that-osa.103481/
Narconon Trois-Rivieres was recently closed down, and civil RICO (Racketeer Influenced and Corrupt Organizations) are also being levelled against Narconon Georgia and Narconon International. Why can’t some people see that DM’s evil has spread to Narconon as well?
Thank you Sherb. I will get the book. I checked on Amazon and they do have it, but I am not sure which version to purchase. The editions include copyrights from 1976, 1992,1993, and 2007 as well as an audio version. If you could steer me in the direction of which to buy I would appreciate it. I am not sure if the text has been altered in the different editions.
Thank you.
Seriously, the only reason I criticised your post about Tony O was because YOU said he couldnt understand/appreciate the supernatural! And you then you accuse me of the same thing!?!?!??! If anyone is sticking up for someones right to explore the “supernatural” its ME!!!
I know Ive already posted an answer to this, but Im still reeling at your inability to comprehend simple statements and your unnecessary vitriol.
Is this where I should post a glib reply like “Thats a 1.9 response”?
SMH. Unbelievable…
Hold the phone, I think there may be an alternate dimensioned Oracle posting here.
THEY said this: “There is a culture who is attuned to the mystical and supernatural as a paralleled dimension. And that culture is ancient here on Earth. There are words, concepts and ideas that can only be translated between these peoples. These do not translate across certain single dimensions. It does not mean these words, concepts and ideas are without merit. This was not made true with the passing of Hubbard’s thoughts. This has always been true.”
Now YOU may never have uttered the word “mystical” or any derived form of “mystic” or alluded to “mysticism, but this other Oracle did, most certainly.
Marty,
I have a very demanding job in the day hours so I can only post outside those hours.
If you Google “Al Jazeera condoning suicide bombings/honor killings/child rape” you will find a lot of instances where Al Jazeera as an institution, if not condones, then at least reports these things as our media reports about traffic. The worst of course is that they used to call suicide bombers “martyrs”. (Suicide bombings seems to have gone out of style, thank God, or maybe thank you, Al Jazeera, what do I know)
Al Jazeera might be a wrong target here. I could concede that. But honestly, don’t you see a lot of scary similarities between the culture of radical Scientology and that of these fanatical islamists?
Ive swear Ive replied to this, but my post is gone…?
Oracle, Im not here to humiliate, ridicule, or otherwise upset people. Just looking for answers…
very true-
” but I do continue to be willing to believe that people can get significant positive results from auditing in some circumstances, just as is possible using other self-help techniques.”
Thank you John, and I look forward to hearing the
results of your contemplated “trying out an auditing
session or two….” As a matter of record, Hubbard
made early references, in Dianetics, “to exploring
that hitherto uninspected territory just an inch
back from our foreheads, that hidden world of
terra incognita….” Believe us ALL, John, you
will no longer find yourself a skeptic, once you
have “actually boarded a plane to experience
really flying, for yourself ” in the analogy i gave
you above.. In a nutshell the experience, no
matter how vividly imagined beforehand, exceeds
ALL your expectations, as you’re sure to discover!
BTW, I have always had nothing but the highest
regard for you.
All the very best,
Calvin.
John, you said
“If it is fixed, I think it would require abandoning a significant portion of Management Tech, which may have been a good try at running an organization 60 years ago, but which is no longer regarded as the best way to do it today. I don’t know if those that would remain post-Miscavige would be willing to examine and to change the role of Management Tech in healing the organization.”
There is one problem with that assumption, and it is KSW. You get rid of some admin tech (HCO Pl), then that opens the door to get rid of tech HCOB’s.
And I will ask the question again, who replaces DM if he dies? Where is that written?
Hello Maurice–
Those were the days, my friend…I hope all is well.
Vic
Marty–
As a new and very reluctant respondent on this site, one who has witnessed the devolution of the subject in question over the last 40 years, I find your attitude arrogant and “make wrong” to the extreme. Someone needs to point out that your former OSA training is showing. You wrote a good book, for starters, but there is still a long way to go. Don’t blow it by continuing down this road of “righteousness.” I watched from the sidelines when you were riding high and issuing the orders from the inside. A bit of humility is in order, or I, for one, will in the future post only to Tony’s blog. I have lived quite well and grown spirtually in ways I could never have imagined over the past two decades without scientology, and I will continue to do so. And I say this not without pain from current experience: I am one of those parents who has not had one word from my dauughter for over eight years because she was told that “she could not go on to upper levels if she had any contact with me.” And I mention this not to get pity but so that you understand that I am a strong enough being to take you to task on this. ‘Nough said. Keep up the good work and stow the c***p.
Vic
Vic, go ahead with your threat. Arrogant enough to incite your arrogance into action?
Yeah, but not between me, Al Jazeera and them.
Kwyjibo,
You asked above about further reading after DMSMH. I’d suggest the following books, in the following order:
1. “Science of Survival” (be sure to get/read the accompanying large chart)
2. “Dianetics 55!”
3. “A New Slant on Life”
4. “Fundamentals of Thought”
5. “Self Analysis” (take some time to try out the exercises in the book)
6. — Now go back and review the earlier books —
7. “Phoenix Lectures” (last printing was early 80s)
8. “Scientology 0-8”
9. “Scientology 8-8008”
(Any printings from the 70s, 80s or 90s is fine — even the 2007 “Basics” version will do in a pinch — the changes weren’t that significant.)
You may want to also pick up a “Scientology Technical Dictionary” (or at least the “Abridged Scientology Dictionary”) in case the books above don’t have good glossaries.
The two primary foundational documents in Scientology are the “Scientology Axioms” and “The Factors”. They are about half a dozen pages each. You’ll find those covered in the last three books, but it’s best to get the grounding in the earlier books first, before attempting to tackle the last three (though the “Scientology – It’s General Background” chapters in “Phoenix Lectures” are quite good, and reading those as a first step would not be a bad idea).
Doing the Comm Course during any part of reading the above (before or after step 5.) is a great idea. I know that in a few parts of the country (US), there are some non-CoS centers where you can do the Comm Course, take other courses, get training or get auditing. In the LA area, I know of two centers. And in Phx, I believe there is one. They also exist in Texas, Idaho, Illinois and I believe Florida. And one in Israel. Other locations exist too, but those are the ones that come to mind. All of the above deliver the “standard LRH Bridge” but without the crush sales, weird auditing alterations, or stat-focused behavior from the CoS.
There are also a few “traveling auditors”, and in LA, there are several full-time auditors who audit at their nearby center or at their home. And in most locations where there are centers, there are people looking to “co-audit” — meaning partnering up with someone else to learn and deliver auditing.
Drop me an email if you need help with any of the above: mesamarg @ earthlink . net
Kwyjibo, See my answer to your request for info above.
Jim,
Mystical is the word I used. Mysticism is the word you used. Go get a dictionary. Mystical is not the same word as mysticism.
No, I have not used the word Mysticism. No, No oracle here used the word mysticism. Jim Logan imported that.
I am not a mystic nor do I subscribe to Mysticism. I know exactly what I am and who I am and I do not need you to correct me about that or alter is my identity.
Definition of MYSTICAL
b : involving or having the nature of an individual’s direct subjective communion with God or ultimate reality.
mys·ti·cism (mst-szm)
3. Vague, groundless speculation.
Mystic:
1. mystic – having an import not apparent to the senses nor obvious to the intelligence; beyond ordinary understanding; “mysterious symbols”; “the mystical style of Blake”; “occult lore”; “the secret learning of the ancients”
mysterious, occult, orphic, mystical, secret
esoteric – confined to and understandable by only an enlightened inner circle; “a compilation of esoteric philosophical theories”
Please do not alter is my words Jim.
All three of these words have various meanings and intonations. I have not used the word mysticism . You have alter ised my words and my meaning.
Then suggested I am schizophrenic.
I understand your purpose very well. I am not confused.
I’ve seen various Independents announce themselves from the UK, but not sure if there is an established non-CoS center for the Comm Course, auditing or other courses in the UK, as there are in the US and Israel.
Perhaps someone from the UK will answer.
In the meantime, take a look at the books/steps I list above if you have an interest in learning more.
Kwyjibo, see my suggestions on next steps/books below, if you haven’t already.
Gone through all the comments and I applaud you for allowing diversity. It has been one of your best threads. I have to comment on your many replies, since you are the owner of this blog, but they are something else! I’m disappointed, but that’s just my viewpoint or opinion. Keep up the good controversial discourse.
I’d love to see some objective psychological experiments done on the practices of psychiatric and clinical psychology. But it ain’t gonna happen anytime soon either.
Jean, usually the earliest editions are then best to get. By the1990s there were more and more alterations in some of the books. But I don’t know if Self Analysis was subjected to alterations. The ones I have, 1976 through 1990s, all seem OK but I haven’t examined them in detail.
“All of the Narconon books say “based on the works of L. Ron Hubbard”, other than “The Way to Happiness”. So my guess is the booklet that’s being referred to is TWTH. None of the booklets use the word “Dianetics” or “Scientology”, or discuss concepts like “thetan”, “past lives”, etc. It’s not “Scientology literature”. ”
Not according to Haifa University religious scholar Benjamin Beit-Hallahmi.
http://archiv.ub.uni-marburg.de/mjr/beit.html
When most people who know who LRH is hear his name, they’re probably going to automatically think “Scientology” right away. If it was made by LRH and promoted by the church, then it IS the church in my and probably most other people’s eyes.
“Do we know the causes of death?”
The toxicology report hasn’t been released yet, but from what I’ve read, it’s suspected to be a heroine overdose. She had been temporarily allowed off the property to visit her family but managed to sneak heroine back in.
According to friends of mine who have been in rehab, good rehab programs monitor you constantly and make it nearly impossible for you to smuggle contraband back in; they check your bags, personal items, clothes, shoes, etc. Especially if you’re in for an addiction to highly addictive, high relapse-rate drugs like heroine. The death is suspicious because it indicates staff weren’t thoroughly checking her things (if at all).
The police called it can “unattended death.” She had been left alone unmonitored for a significant amount of time; enough to prepare her heroine, overdose and die before anyone was aware.
Sorry, but I am in the USA, so I don’t have knowledge of UK activities. Hopefully someone with more familiarity will respond.
Try http://www.freezone.org, and http://www.freezoneearth.org, http://www.freezone.de for possible links to activities in the UK.
Poof! Entheta into theta! That was magic!
They just can’t recognize psychotic behavior, that’s all. In that I believe the PTS/SP tech has been a major failure and is the one that needed to be improved the most. That’s the bottom line of it.
Why criticize her post thatTony O. doesn’t understand/accept/appreciate the supernatural? Perhaps it’s true that he can’t/doesn’t.
How would you know?
Wow. I heard THAT before “our door is always open…” except when you start writing reports and raising concerns – then you are in ethics forever and the doors are closed everywhere.
“I have full understanding of the inner workings of Arrowhead. On all tech lines across the board. ”
I’m not too familiar with the terminology, but I’m assuming that you mean your familiar with Narconon’s management practices at all levels.
Is it true that Narconon has “Ethics Officers” and keeps “Ethics Files” on patients? Are they talking about “ethics” in the layman’s terminology or Scientology “Ethics?” Are “Ethics Files” anything like the compilations of audition confessionals and such?
I received a notice to report to Flag to process refund, ya right. No way.
Holy Cats!!
Yes.
Margaret,
Have just ordered Science of Survival off Amazon. Thankyou so, so much for taking the time to write that list for me. Ive also copy-and-pasted the list and will work through it.
All the best!
Thankyou Margaret!
Hi Marty!
I am a Christian, neither a Corp SCN nor an Indie. That moniker of mine is for Woman Set Free by God. I also grew up in Scientology (circa 1970s-80s) and worked at INT at Gold (early 1990s). Read your book, loved it! Thank you for re-habbing my original understanding of ARC and KRC. Thank you for your perspective! Wonderfully refreshing and a lot closer to the fun places & people I remember from much earlier days. Only difference is I sense no hidden line whatsoever in your writing.
You are a man of integrity and I have always admired you!
Job well done.
“Grow not weary in well doing”
“The case about being made to read Scn literature is weak”
It actually wasn’t the first time. Narconon Vista Bay in CA is being sued by a woman who says she was subjected to CoS proselytising and made to read LRH books during her stay.
http://www.courthousenews.com/2011/07/21/38330.htm
Captain Bob,
KSW applies to tech, not policy. Policy and rules need to change to adapt to the conditions and changes around one. LRH talks about this in numerous places, most notably in “The Structure of Organization, What is Policy?” (HCOPL 13-Mar-1965) — “periodic sweep-outs of antiquated and didactic laws (rather than general concepts and sub-purposes) MUST be undertaken by a being, organization, group or race or species.”
As to who replaces DM, how about a selection/election of Board Members? That’s effectively the structure that LRH setup in the Articles and Bylaws of CST, RTC and CSI. Besides the Articles and Bylaws themselves (see savescientology.com), there’s also the reference “Theory of Scientology Organizations” (HCOPL 22-Oct-1962) which discusses generally how to elect/select the leadership of Scientology organizations.
I didn’t go in at all (not Flag, but CC Int). They never asked, but if they did, I would just tell them that you have no interest in talking or working with anyone in the CoS, and that they should mail you the necessary paperwork.
pawehowse, twue, it is spewwed peopwe, but it is pwonounced “peepoo”. Mow ow wess.
Marty, I loved your book and thought it was nuanced and intelligently written. I am a history teacher and I often tell my students to be careful not to ask questions for which they already have chosen an answer. I am not a Scientologist but I have always felt there MUST be something beautiful to the tech and your book helped me gain an understanding of why so many have chosen Scientology for so long. Frankly, I cannot wait for the day I can discover for myself, outside of the corporate Church, all that Scientology has to offer. May more continue to think critically and assess fairly and with compassion!
John P., do you know Geir Isene? Management consulting has been his business for many years, during which he attempted to apply LRH’s Management tech in many ways. He found some good things, and somethings that didn’t work at all for him. It sounds like you and he could have some productive discussions.
He is on vacation with his family right now, but you can still check out his blog at http://www.isene.wordpress.com
I would encourage you to do so and also to get in touch with him down the road. I think you have a lot in common and could both benefit from some contact.
Me too.
But about the Tone Scale, or any other scale or basic concept in Scientology, such as ARC , the Dynamics, the Know to Mystery Scale, Be Do Have etc –
in the books they are broken down, each into it’s own chapter. This gives the impression they can be considered separately, one from another. But this is not fundamentally true.
They are all interrelated and are attempts to describe the component parts of an organic whole – existence and our relationship to it. They are component parts, but they are not separate from each other. They are all parts of the same body.
It is not obvious in the books, how they interrelate. That’s why I push listening to some of LRH’s lectures – in them, LRH explains exactly how they all tie together.
For example,one of the best lectures I know of in which he ties together ARC, the Tone Scale, and the Dynamics, as well as some other basic concepts like Clear,is the lecture given on the 28th of January 1958. It was subsequently re-issued as one of The Classics series, which comes with a transcript and glossary.
It’s my #1 recommendation for a good understanding of the Tone Scale and the Dynamics.
By the way, it is this lecture that made it clear to me how much those still involved in the Corruption of Scientology(CoS) were clueless about the Dynamics – which of course made their understanding of Ethics flawed right from the start.
OOOPs – thisl ecture is titled “Man the Animal & Man the God”, in it’s Classics incarnation. I’m sure it can be found on Ebay or Amazon at a reasonable price. “If you listen to only one lecture this year….” etc
Max, “Book of Case Remedies” revisited.
John P. will inevitably remain one of “The Clueless about the Tech” until he either gets some auditing, audits someone himself, or gets something like a Major Stable Win himself on OT-TR0.
That’s just the nature of the beast. There is no way he can know before he knows. That in itself doesn’t make him a bad guy, but your observation about his posting is welcome nonetheless, as it should help those not familiar with the book of case remedies estimate him correctly and save them from pissing into the wind.
only those who still use the word “mimeo”. 🙂
Good job DarnIt. “Darn it” is an understatement, huh? 🙂 But we gotta do what we gotta do, no matter how unexpected.
K,
Sometimes in one of these threads, it can get “hairy”. Words are mistaken, the nuances and subtleties of live communication are not available or apparent. Writing on the internet, whether one of these blogs, commenting or even emails, has its own peculiar aspects.
For example, the one your in now, that I’m adding to, is such a thing. One where it may require a thing called “pan-determinism”, able to be both sides of the interchanges, and thereby not adversely affected by either.
My view is you have only recently began posting here, you’ve been audacious in some remarks, and that audacity has received some reciprocal responses, say.
If you take the opportunity to gain some more knowledge, and be willing to be that kind of pan-determined (able to view and actually really assume many differing viewpoints and see things and even express them as very, very different viewpoints) and also be willing to control yourself, and others, then you will gain the full range of this here blog.
It’s a wonderful place actually. But it does demand the raising up to heights.
Sincerely,
Jim Logan
Yo, plus!
🙂
Thanks for all Valkov, noted, will do at a future
juncture.
Hi Jean, been away for a couple of days. I don’t think there’s been that much alteration in that book in any printing. Sure Miscavige has done a lot of manipulation of Scientology but as I see it the fundamental areas such as the basic books and processes are OK. The major problem with the Church is that it doesn’t know it’s own product anymore and hasn’t a clue what to expect from standard application, in fact it rejects people who can think for themselves. Self Analysis is on safe ground – good luck to you.
I little of me is in there by the way.
CD
Thank you very much. I will order it today. I am very curious to learn more about this subject and how it may used to increase awareness and spirituality. As someone who is not a Scintologist, who has looked at both sides and has read the real horror stories of those who were in Scientology, Inc. I am worried about falling into the trap of the corporation. That is why I read this blog, as I know I will never step into any building owned by Scientology, Inc.
I’d still really appreciate to hear
1) Why Narconon makes non-Scientologist patients read LRH.
2) What “Ethics Files” are and why Narconon makes them for patients.
3) Something good about Gary Smith.
I’m a little late to this party but Marty, I want to say that as thankless and “unexciting” your “middle path” approach seems to those addicted to chaos and conflict, it is nevertheless a quiet inspiration to so many of us who have moved up high enough to appreciate “light effects”. These are far-reaching effects for me and for the group of friends who are influenced by me and by your approach, and are greatly appreciated. The middle path is the best way to move up a little higher.
Yes, keep away from Scn Inc, they are bad news. However, via Marty’s blog there are a number of standard Scientoloy auditors if you need advice, encouragement etc. There is way get to know the subject without falling into the traps. Reading Hubbards basic books is great start he recommended, be your own counsel and you’ll do OK.
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You have got terrific thing at this point.