Despite millions of dollars of legal threats, propaganda and creepy investigations directed to shudder them in to silence, Joe Childs and Tom Tobin of the Tampa Bay Times are still at it. Their new series includes video interviews of Mike Rinder and John Brousseau as well as court footage of Debbie Cook. Not a lot of new revelations, however. Clearly, though, another validation of the truth of the axiom, ‘if you lie it becomes part of your future, if you tell the truth it becomes part of your past.’
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Moving On Up a Little Higher 
Marty,
This story needs to be repeated until it gets past the extreme communication lag of those who can’t confront the sheer *EVIL* of it.
Michael A. Hobson
Independent Scientologist
Get shorty. Redux.
Kudos to Mike Rinder for clearly communicating the concepts which are unbelievable to those who didn’t go through the gauntlet and the truth of Korean style brainwashing and torture imported to Gilman Hot Springs CA by the Dear Leader David Miscavige.
Mike’s analysis of hopes, dreams, motivations and ultimate betrayal have not been surpassed in any account.
Very sobering reminder of how many lost souls are still trapped in there.
I am otherwise at a loss for words. Maybe tears are more appropriate, here. The hole is horrifyingly inhumane.
Scott Gordon
ex-DSA CCDallas, DSA Costa Rica
Agreed. Excellent report and heart wrenching as well.
The difference between MR or JB and the DeMon is the difference beween sanity and insanity.
Good job Mike!
Also…
Talk about continuing to tell the truth…Nancy Many does an “interview” of sorts that airs on Tue 15 Jan ’13, 10:00 P.M. EST on the Investigation Discovery Channel. This will help the cause.
Nice presentation by Tampa Bay Times. Nice to see JB and Mike.
There’s lots of viewpoints lately here on this blog. My view is that this blog is a lifeline. Marty’s work here gives hope and direction where otherwise there might be none in certain situations. I can’t think of a more worthwhile endeavor.
I will say that now it seems so odd to me that a group of people would grant absolute power to one individual like this. I get it, why people would go along with it, but it’s still a strange and interesting phenomenon.
Jackie | January 12, 2013 at 11:10 pm | Reply
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You have got to give these reporters credit for standing up against the controversy. I think they are heros. I live in Clearwater (not for much longer, YEA!) and get the Tampa Bay Times thrown into my driveway every day and really appreciate the updates from them when they come out.
S
… and that may take a while Hobson, but I wholeheartedly agree.
It may not all be new news to some of us, but it is fascinating and I dare say impinging the way Tampa Bay Times laid it out with the back story links, themselves all salient and impinging and important. Damn bold of them!
I’d like to report that it’s safe to read too. I was able to survive the enturbulation with my thetan intact.
Every time I hear this tale retold, it is shocking, yet not. I have been gone so long but I experienced enough to know that this is truth be told.
Marty, Mike, Debbie Cook, JB, I am just so impressed that you press on, and still I hear the inner Scientologist, the one that still believes in spite of this insanity. And this horror is utter insanity. It is truly beyond belief. The world would be in an uproar except that the majority of the good souls on this earth just can’t think such atrocities are actually possible. It is just too unthinkable. It is hard to confront. IMO
Mike Rinder has the Right Stuff were a person of lesser courage would fold.
Oh yea, and than there is that “Fair Game” thing and all the money paid to suppress the whistle-blowers, I mean SPs. It is, mind boggling for any normal person. They just can’t get it. Good for them! No one should ever have to get this, and how fucked up it is. This is messed up!
Now we’re talking, This is the real deal. The only reason I pay attention to all of this- sorry.
Although strictly speaking there’s nothing new, they did a great job of telling the story in a new unit of time. Many heartfelt thanks to JB and Mike Rinder for once again detailing this gut-wrenching story of gross injustice. . Miscavige, telling you to burn in Hell would be too much of a validation so I won’t even bother.
Chris: Now step a few inches away from your own endorsements and upsets regarding LRH and ask yourself:
“Am I granting absolute power to one individual? No matter how brilliant I think he might be?”
Christine
Fascinated by the interviews with Rinder and Brousseau. Pissed off by the dropped FBI investigation. Happily interferring with other countries affairs and now the US administration is doing nothing for US citizens being beaten and held prisoners in California.
I’ve been reading Marty’s blog for a while now. Thought I was flat on what happened (and is probably still happening) to those previously so very able and theta people like Heber and Gilliaume Leserve. But playing the video again brings tears.
Am loving the professional competition between the journalists exposing the abuses of Scientology. Seems to me the response by Childs/Tobin to the Lawrence Wright book out this week is to expand their original expose of the Truth Rundown. It dovetails perfectly.
Who knows what triggers a criminal investigation, but if I was working in the FBI regional office near Hemet, I’d be looking at alternative career options.
This hole story is so heart breaking that I had to go for a good long walk to recover after having read the article and heard all the interviews once again. It just reminded me why I could not continue to remain a member of such a “church” and why I found it necessary to leave. I can only hope more people wake up after having confronted this documentation!
“Clearly, though, another validation of the truth of the axiom, ‘if you lie it becomes part of your future, if you tell the truth it becomes part of your past.’
Well, the future is looking pretty bleesed bleak for The Cult leader and his supporters then!
miscavige and company, that light you see at the other end of your tunnel of lies and deception is just another BIG FAT Train of truth heading your way!
Lawrence wright is also going to be on Rock Center this week promoting his book also a big interview with Paul Haggis. DM will be wearing diapers by the end of the week.
Seems to me, Marty and Mike are perfect examples of this wonderful Ralph Waldo Emerson quote:
“Do not go where the path may lead, go instead where there is no path and leave a trail”
Thanks for exhibiting courage such that others have been able to follow your trails.
Love,
Christine
I’ve known this was happening, but, compartmentalized it, put it ‘out there’. But, watching the video, and reading the stories again, made it feel like my problem.
I started to comment last night, but was so upset and angry I couldn’t put thoughts to words, without lots of expletives & HE&R!!!
The fact this is still continuing, blows my mind. I want to jump in my car, drive to Hemet, confront security and get them out!
Is security guarding ‘the hole’ armed? Does anyone on this blog know an FBI official? Gawd, can’t we do something?
Many of us on this blog are and have been rebels all our lives, are we just going to let this happen?
DM is just one man, what the hell gives him all this power?
Help me out here, or am I being so naive, that there really are no solutions?
This is just another suppressive dramo, but we have the tech, so let’s figure out a solution, OK?
L, Midge
MH, I completely agree.
Powerful video. More exes have to make their stories heard until the authorities in the real world take charge. Screw the confidentiality agreements and NDAs. The more that speak out the less weight those docs will have.
To answer your question…there is plenty we can do and I am with you,the fight needs to be dialed up and taken directly to dm and the base.
The problem is we are simply acting to patiently, to civilized, to intelectually,to meekly, to effect.
We need to put together a “light operations” group and become a disruptive force out at the base. That,s right I said it, I went with F word ….force! Don,t some of you think we’re just a bit heavy on intelligence and a bit light on force?
Here is simply operation…how about sending prepaid cell phones over the walls at the base by the hundreds over several weeks? Lets see if we can establish a communication line and go from there. Is that too much force?
We need to establish in DM that the base is no longer a safe zone and that anything might occur out there……that’s is we establish the idea and go from there. DM is way to comfortable and he needs to be made uncomfortable.
……..more to come.
Unbelievably horrific….
I feel the same way. Although I there is nothing I had not heard, it is tremendously moving. We must not forget the metaphorical Holocaust of our brethren. The horrors are not over.
Nancy
Kurt Weiland was a good friend of mine way back when. To hear MR tell about him being literally, physically tortured is gut-wrenching. Mark Ginge Nielsen I think is the son of Hanne (from Denmark), who used to be a good friend of mine (he was the one Debbie Cook talked about getting “roughed up” and later made to lick the bathroom floor for a half hour). Last time I talked to her she told me how proud she was of her son doing very well in the Sea Org.
This story cannot be told enough. I hope Kurt’s and Mark’s loved ones on the outside take appropriate measures to salvage them in addition to what Marty is doing with this blog. The only way to change anything David Miscavige does is outside pressure. Hopefully soon the pressure will be so hard that the evil dictator falls.
Indeed. Tommy Davis, are you ready? If so, we would love to hear your voice.
Nancy
Good one Steve! (“Light at the end of the tunnel”) I guess now I’m going to have to stop using that phrase in my normal communication. 🙂
Yes MC, LRH has said something like; the most difficult
thing to confront is evil. Why are the parishioners still in
the church after all this and persisting to attend?
Of course it is not being able to read what is going on
and the fear of punishment for doing so. But with all the
indicators that something is awfully wrong inside, all roads
lead ultimately to the lack of being able to confront evil, IMO.
I hear you, but respectfully- you are making an assumption. I don’t worship LRH. I have found his works to be valuable. I have had some really beneficial spiritual change in myself from auditing and training/study. I think these are real. I am still of the opinion that if it dosent work, figure out what you did wrong/where your MUs are and then do it right. I have not yet experienced that not working. I still think KSW is a key policy to prevent alteration of Scientolgy that results in lack of results (I suggest everybody re-study this and the KSW series). I currently feel that this site, through group agreement is guiding people to “cognitions” that are contrary to these beliefs. “Playing the Piano” is a good thing, but not when it is used as license to alter or disregard key concepts of Scientolgy. These are my beliefs and you are ok by me to believe whatever you choose.
What did Tom Cruise know and when did he know it?
Prepaid phones with some contact numbers already programmed in would be ideal. Don’t know how feasible this would be, in bulk.
Where does DM get these big “Security Guards?”
I think it is that at the public and local org levels people are still getting and using the tech which works to some extent and they delegate all responsibility for managing to Management. It’s kind of a “not in my job description” mentality, which of course has been fostered and heavily enforced by Management over many years now.
I think Miscaviges efforts to silence critics and whistleblowers will be a legal are that will bear more fruit. That stuuf is crazy and hopefully is under investigation that will lead to some legal action by some state of Federal agency.
Oops- …by some State or Federal Agency
Chris, I just don’t see where anyone is advocating “altering or disregarding key concepts of Scientology.” I think what is being advocated, at least by me, is that the key concepts be applied in the spirit in which LRH originally intended them. Some concepts are senior to others, just as some policy is senior to other policy, as I understand the situation. I think this applies even to KSW, which to me is simply saying “If it’s not broken, don’t fix it. And the tech is not broken.”
I really don’t think you are saying anything different. Communicationis not always 100% successfully duplicated because of small differences in understanding, what we call “semantics”. It creates the apparency of disagreement when there actually not much if any disagreement there at all.
I guess the thing to do is keep talking, which I’m glad you are doing.
It is indeed an interesting phenomenon. The mechanics are not granting power to an individual, be it L. Ron Hubbard or David MisManage. The mechanic — what happens — is that a trust is gained. It is gained through counseling, through initial admiration, through support. It is gained by the pride of being part of a group that has such noble goals as the Sea Org. That trust is placed by well-meaning individuals with aligned noble goals when they experience a benefit and when they experience something where truth resonates.
As much as some need to minimize Hubbard and even Scientology (two separate subjects), it is an observable fact that many, many intelligent people benefit from Scientology. Receiving touching and life-changing benefit, in the usual human being, fosters profound gratitude and trust.
Are the benefits from Scientology thatgood that so much trust is placed? The loyalty and admiration by so many to Scientology and their respect for the person who researched and developed it is the answer. Yes. It’s that good. So when people’s hearts and souls are open, and they place trust…and that trust is abused and betrayed and manipulated…it takes a while to discern and sort out the mixture of a scene.
Good people want to be responsible and tend to look to their own cause in situations. The Hole is the supreme abuse and hijacking of a help technology and the basic goodness of human beings.
The protection against such things is knowing the tech of what you’re doing. It is nothing to be ashamed of to have trusted, nor to have question one’s own instinct about something being really wrong and opting to listen and not look. Sometimes experience is a process and training in itself.
This is a tangent, but I have realized recently that the actual source and full-blown practitioner of brainwashing, social engineering through behavior modification and propaganda backed by force is China.
North Korea is simply a puppet state fully supported by China.that draws attention away from inspection of what China is actually doing. The Chinese leadership wears Western suits and Western haircuts, but their intention is literally to remake the world under their leadership and bury those of us who disagree, just as they have already done in Tibet.
There is a good book titled “Death by China” available now which succinctly depicts a good overview of what is happening worldwide as well as in China itself and the Chinese leaderships role in it all. It’s an easy read all backed by specific examples and I recommend it.
As Debbie Cook pointed out in her testimony, and as Mike Rinder pointed out, the practices of The Hole and group confessionals are not Scientology. They are in fact, the highest abuse of knowledge about the mind and soul and nature of beings. They take that knowledge and use it for the opposite purpose of help.
Chris: respectfully … you jumped from absolute power to worship.
I think they might be different. In any case, I wonder if you can fathom that it might not be group agreement that is guiding people on this blog but interesting recommended books, poems, concepts that are helping people to open up and view things through less of a narrow lens.
If the lens is narrow – then tunnel vision occurs and it is possible for the peripheral vision to cease existing and sometimes it is there where all manner of interesting things reside.
I honestly really understand where you are coming from. Not long ago, no one could have possibly convinced me to step back from my buddhist teacher and many years before that as a Sea Org member – I never ever had one ounce of doubt about LRH.
Until I did
Love,
Christine
Eyes wide shut and theetie-wheetie.
It would be interesting to debate the pros and cons of the KSW series here sometime. (talk about TA action…) I have many different thoughts about those references. One is that if enforced by the not quite bright it can lead to pain and suffering for many. The idea of it just saying in essence “Don’t change anything” has some merit. But it is much more complicated than that. I mean, some things are just out-points sitting on top of other out-points and to debug one out-point you need to get at the prior out-point first. It’s like a chain of out-points and if you get the basic that explains the other out-points then you have the “why”.
All the talk about whether KSW is good or bad seems like a later out-point and not the basic one. I think a much more basic one would be the church being a monopoly. It has been a monopoly and has been taken over by a nut. So now the nut can shut it down almost. If Scientology were to be designed to have thousands of individual practitioners all over the world , it could never be shut down. Then KSW would take on a totally different meaning. Not like in the cult where it is policed and enforced in idiotic ways. It would maybe be more like, hey it’s workable so don’t change it. This enters in again the subject of LRH errors, which is another touchy subject. And could be a whole other blog topic, for those who could confront it. I think it would be fascinating. It all boils down to how can we use this wonderful tech in a way that will prevent this disaster from ever happening again. It is like a step of the Danger formula. I think as a group we are sort of trying to formulate and adopt firm policy so that this dangerous situation never again repeats. It takes ocnfront to do this. It takes level heads.
Sorry, are you comparing LRH with DM? No comparison. LRH could affect me after his death thru his writings, whatever he was this lifetime. DM could affect me adversely thru his life this life time, whatever his “writings” have been this lifetime. A great, big, Vast difference!
My comment was referring to Christine. Chrismann9, I do agree with you. People have to do some studies using study tech…. no shit. LRH was not a saint but he gave us something NO saint gave Mankind. I see no respect for this but a lot of natter and talks.
No matter what DM will do there are always going to be people who are going to regret having helped the little tyrant.
What we have to do is uncover ourselves, do not be lurkers anymore, uncover your identities and say you disagree and don’t support this regime anymore.
What this blog can do is keep the communication open, no matter what, as it has.
And there will be a day after some years that we will see some change.
I think we need to clarify “a group of people would grant absolute power to one individual”. Personally, when LRH dropped the body, as a public Scnist I didn’t feel like I had much say in what the church did in response to that. Nearly 30 years later, I still don’t feel terribly empowered. Others I’ve spoken to have given “standard” responses – “You should write a KR” – blah, blah, blah. No, your local MAA will make it quite clear to you that Scn Inc is NOT a democracy. It’s interesting to note that they will tell you what it is NOT (including an LRH quote without context), but they will NOT tell you what it IS – a dictatorship.
I agree it IS a strange and interesting phenomenon. Those seeking to understand this phenomenon eventually wind up here. Where else would they go?
++++While John Sweeney of the BBC releases a book on their dark and dirty side, being downloaded to Kindle for the world to read.
+++++While Tampa Bay Times explode… on internal abuse and atrocities (world wide media will pick it up)
+++++While Nancy Many Discovery Channel ID show is about to air
+++++While Larry Wright’s book is on the horizon with shows and publicity
+++++While NBC Rock Center with Brian Williams goes nationwide on Scientology this coming Thursday
+++++While the Jenna Miscavige book will tear and heart strings of every mother/woman/female that reads it…
+++++Miscavige sends BOZO the clown to visit with ME !
Jim Lynch “Freedommagazine” journalist shows up ringing my doorbell to ask about Marty and Tony O.
What LULZ !
Oh Boy. Nothing like that to stir up my intentions to EXPOSE EXPOSE EXPOSE and give Miscavige’s Karma a helping hand 🙂 🙂 🙂
PLEASE NOTE, THIS WAS ONLY PART 1 of Tampa Bay Times revelations, part 2 coming soon.
January 2013: TRUTH REVEALED
I understand what you are saying Chris, and I will be the first to agree that effort should be made to prevent changes to a workable technology. That said, I do feel that KSW can be championed by the not-quite-bright and be fanatically applied – with no judgement. And even then they would see it as being “unreasonable” – a good thing.
Taken to the extreme KSW could be used to attack/reject almost anything not penned by LRH!
Some time back a poster asked “where are all the manly men in Scientology?” He was curious as to why we stood by and continue to stand by and allow DM to cage executives out at the base. I answered then and say now that we have become “civilized” We let lawyers, time, chance,and karma do our work for us. We have forgotten we use to have firearms, bows, armor and were skilled with horses etc…. However our Chevrolets, HD televisions, and Wal-Mart world have all but extinguished those earlier times. It looks to me like we have forgotten how to fight or even really protest except by computer screens.
As I said earlier the fight need to be taken to the base and turn it from on offensive position from which DM operates to a base that has to be defended.
We don’t need to get violent or destructive but we can get disruptive and annoying minimally.
For example, where is the sewer line located that services the base? Where is the main telephone junction box that services the base? Where do the electrical lines enter the base? Where are the back-up generators located if the power goes out? What might be done with these soft targets? How about flyers by the thousands coming over the fence letting those inside we are willing to act to get them out if they want out? I mentioned earlier prepaid telephones being flooded onto the base. There are too many possibilities to list here.
This would take some organizing and funds but plenty could be done by a few committed men and women who really wanted to get organized.
I am pretty sure that this post will get a good looking over by OSA….people start talking then they start meeting and then they starting acting. DM needs to be made to feel that the walls and razor wire may not hold.
I am ready to go to work.
Personally, I think KSW is just LRH’s way of saying; “If it ain’t broke, don’t try to fix it.”
Oh Karen, with all you have been through the last few months. Sending that imbecile to harass you shows the total lack of humanity. He’s not a “Big Being” – he’s a tiny, sad, little man. “Big Beings” don’t act like that.
I think that there are valid reasons to discuss the errors that LRH made (mostly administratively) which contributed to the spot that Scientology is in now. If we as a group don’t spot the errors and correct them, then I don’see how anything will ever get much better than it is now.
To me there is a difference between criticizing LRH to bring him down or to spot the errors to bring people up. It is like a Qual action. Can we presume to “correct” LRH?? I think so. Leave the tech alone and let it be applied far and wide. The organization/philosophy is a disaster currently and is in a bad state and needs correcting.
Wow! Mike and JB were awesome! I was in tears listening to the videos and trying to read the articles. You were both so “real”, so grounded. It was very upsetting and reminded me why I joined this cause to stop the abuse. I am sad and angry.
Fortunately they also posted the Co$ response in full, which provided some comic relief: “poopy-face is lying. We are expanding, expanding, expanding. Poopy-face is being mean to us….” Of course it was all Marty’s fault, even though he was barely mentioned in the article and not interviewed on record. They are demonizing you, it’s so obvious.
Thank you to all you “incestuous lying apostates” who talked to the FBI, shared your stories with the Tampa Bay Times and the rest of the world. Hopefully, an end to the torture and abuse is near. I pray for those suffering now and who have suffered.
The tragic irony throughout the ongoing and future events and revelations, be they Spiritual, economic, social or some other permutation is that those self-inflicted victims who are still in lockstep with Radical Corporate Scientology will be in an ultimate shock because of their shallow and utterly destructive alliances, perceptions and lives.
I wish them well, though, with the exception of the POB and his inner circle and enablers.
Hell’s fires aren’t hot enough to purge their evil.
I personally feel the current interpretation of KSW within the corporation and in certain areas of the freezone/indie community does nothing but hurt the evolution of Scientology.
Let me qualify that: I am in no way, shape, or form advocating the ‘auditing over skype or auditing telepathically’ or any of that nonsense.
What I am saying is that we live in a world that is changing so fast in so many ways. We are opening up new horizons virtually everyday. (creatively, scientifically, etc.) I think it would actually be amazing if some really smart people in a mindful, intelligent way looked at ways both in the technology and the organizational policies to be improved upon, refined, expanded, brought to new plateaus.
The technology of Scientology, according to the cult, is in a static state. Unchangeable. In this day and age that is totally ridiculous.
Let me reiterate: the ridiculous “squirrel” practices are not even worth criticizing. But if Scientology is going to make a leap into the future and actually be a relevant philosophy in the 21st century then we really need to face the facts that there is a lot of bullshit in Scientology that is passed on as “gospel’
Make the good stuff better.
Get rid of the trash.
Who can do that?
That is where leadership, collaboration, and transparency comes in.
Something the cult knows nothing about.
Tony, very well articulated!! A nice perspective about KSW taking a wholly new meaning outside of the church and as a step of the danger formula that we are applying!!
Good one Tony.
Lets not forget that when LRH wrote that, in 1965, the current OT levels and NOTs had not been developed. But the basic data that led to the development of these levels was available since 1952. The LX lists, the L’s, NED, NED for OTs, FPRD, FDSing…all these things came later.
I personally haven’t yet found the need to use any tech outside of available published rundowns and bulletins in my practice. This is taking a person from Life Repair all the way to being set up and on to the OT levels. I do, however, recommend people read a number of other authors in order to broaden their education.
I can’t help but wonder what Ron would have put together if he’d stuck around another 20 years. I also wonder what would have happened if he’d left off after the PDCs and let us all develop our own systems from that point. KSW works for me all the way through NOTs and the original OT levels. I can help people achieve the levels they want with that tech. But I’m not a slave to it. I just do it because it works.
Les
need to face the facts that there is a lot of bullshit in Scientology that is passed on as “gospel’
The ‘bullshit’ is not Scientology, the ‘bullshit’ making gospel out of an applied philosophy.
As for the evolution of Scientology …If you’re really worried about it, study it, get trained and audited and audit people and help people and life in all its forms. The evolution is You. Then go create something yourself.
Once the DeMon meets his fate, Rinder, JB, and Rathbun should do a Board of Review on the ENTIRE subject of Scinetology, including such aspects as the Sea Organization.
I know how long it took me, and how many sources it took, before I actually allowed myself to accept the facts about Miscavige and Int and the condition of the Co$. The truth sets one free. Not-isness breeds stupidity.
I am very glad that these tales of horror are being told over and over and over again.
Take a look around at subjects and objects that we utilize in every day life. Does anyone feel that every other word has to contain the disclaimer “Even though _____ (the inventor)___ was no saint, I sure as heck like this nifty thing that is making my life easier.” No! Not in any field, medicine, science, fashion, Art is that disclaimer used over and over like it is about L. Ron Hubbard. So the guy had a case. So does every other single human being who ever walked these here parts. And do we hear about the whopper cases of some other amazing human beings in the same breath as we use and benefit from their work. No! Case belongs in session. What of it? Why the need to minimize Hubbard or justify his case? The awesomeness of human beings is that they are heroic and creative despite their cases. Hubbard was fabulous! No apologies needed. Just as no apologies are needed for each person’s vulnerabilities every time the being makes something awesome. Scientology and L. Ron Hubbard are two separate subjects.
The ‘bullshit’ is not Scientology, the ‘bullshit’ is the acts of making gospel out of an applied philosophy.
KF,
I think that the Miscarriage would relish dealing with the Bitter defrocked apostates doing something that he could use to justify himself. He is a sad sad example of a human being and would like nothing better that to get a few ‘indies’ to stoop to his level.
A workable alternative might be to show up in mass to the next event and put the whole show on the skids.
I couldn’t agree more, Tony.
It is evil Mike. I am very happy that I packed my things and left the Church of Scientology behind in the 1980’s long before much of what is going on in this video even unfolded. I was already suspicious of the Church of Scientology since the day the church first sent someone to my house to do a “reg cycle” while is was still in high school. Long before many of today’s critics even arrived on the scene. So al of this has just unfolded in front me. All the pieces have just fallen into place of what I originally suspected but while in the church never in a million years ever even dreamed I would see proof of. So these facts cannot be ignored. 🙂
I just read part 2. My goodness….so close, so very close. Then to have it slip through the FBIs fingers. All that hard work and time! Let’s hope this is only the beginning of many investigations.
I don’t agree.
I.e. which parts of the academy levels would you like to be “improved”?
You don’t like the way LRH speaks? You want the Bulletings being rewritten?
There is one tech.
” It is like a step of the Danger formula. I think as a group we are sort of trying to formulate and adopt firm policy so that this dangerous situation never again repeats.”
+1
Tony,
Dianetics and Scientology (as an applied philosophy) should never have pursued religious status with a top heavy hierarchy., IMHO But that’s all in hindsight.
As a grass-roots movement it never was or will be unstoppable. The fervent pursuit of our true spirituality and ultimate potential will prevail. It’s human nature.
Number of times over equals certainty and results!
If it were possible to get just ONE person out of there with an operation like this, it would be worth it.
Can’t wait for tomorrow’s Tampa Bay Times. Coming tomorrow on my driveway before 6 am.
True that Valkov, but then that presumes they are aware of
what is happening outside their own little sphere of dynamic(s)
and on one end of the spectrum act irresponsibly on the rest
of the dynamics. But when you really break it down or “why
didn’t I do something about it?” it comes down to overt(s)
which traced back usually ends up with an evil purpose with
a confusion preceding it. Look at the townspeople in Germany
living near the concentration camps. A lot of them knew it
was something wrong but they did not speak up or do anything
about it (of course fear etc) but some, very few, did something.
They could confront evil.
When needed, FPRD actually straightens out one’s karma.
I agree Tony …I think one of the things that LRH wrote and is simply NOT TRUE – is that people leave because they are upset. People leave Scientology because it is destroying and hurting people and one cannot stand to be part of the crimes, the abuse, the betrayal! I personally felt Scientology over charges for what it delivers, people are used and discarded and not valued, children are not valued and families are worthless. I left because I felt I was going to be harmed … no longer helped. The help was short-lived and I kept going because I thought it was me. Then I got Debbie Cook’s e-mail and read the “truth rundown” and heard about all of the abuse. I was completely devastated and felt so betrayed by this criminal organization run by a mad man – David Miscavige.
OK, and I can see that many viewpoints and opinions can be benificial and help a person to decide what is true for them. I think everyone here is “an adult” , as the say, and can make up their own minds. I dont believe it’s possible to force anyone to believe anything. At this moment I feel a lot less serious, so I guess I have said what I needed to say. Personally, I would most likely seek out people who are doing Scientology as standardly as possible. There seems to be some agreement among certain people that the time right before Miscavige- in the 1970’s I guess was a good “reset” point. Almost like doing a System Restore on your computer to remove any changes that occured to the system prior to the Miscavige virus. One thing I fear from my viewpoint is that knowledge of correct application will be lost. LRH said (maybe someone can back me up with the reference) that it’s not enough to have the tech, but you also need people who can pass on correct application. Thats why I’m concerned about the KSW. The Church has enforced incorrect application to the point of unworkability in a lot of areas. As far as I know this blog is the main conduit for communication in the Independent field. If it becomes perfectly acceptable to not apply KSW and “integrate” and conform to society or whatever else what will it look like in 10-20 or 30 years? I think it might lose a lot of what makes it work .
KFrancis. Being “disruptive” with the “soft targets” you mention is illegal.
Tony, something that has been huge for me is just re-studying stuff. I find that there is false data attached to things that i got from the Sup or the EO or whoever. or The EO got it from the MAA at Flag, who got it from who knows where, It’s False Data that trickles down and becomes “the way it’s done”. You’ve got the Three Swing FN and redefined Instant Reads and Six Month Checks which are huge obvious false data, but hidden also are probably hundreds or thousands of smaller data like that. I think every time the Miscavige Virus uses an LRH quote or datum he misuses it or misinterpets it as a way to justify something.
Also, there is an attutude in the church that I guess is that everything might be “that”, so this is that. Does that make sense? An MAA will say, oh, you play poker?? Hmm, I think that might be bad, so I guess it is, so you have to stop- and do conditions and PTS handling, and donate another set of Basics, and bring in a note from your mommy before you can get back on your auditing.
The individual Scientologist should have the power, not any organization or individual. When one person or group has a monopoly, withholds it, charges an exorbitant amount of money for participation I think it is time for that person has to go. I think a lot has been done by Marty, Mike, Steve, Amy, Jim, Dan, and others to create a safer environment for an independent Scientology.
That sounds real nice, but who is going to do that? In KSW 1 LRH is talking about people who thought they knew better. People always want to be smart and know better. It’s a human fault.
Except that Hubbard made it an organizational High Crime to violate the 10 points of KSW, carrying the penalty of Expulsion from Scientology – the only known workable road out spiritual entrapment in the Material Universe.
Hubbard took Scientology from the Game Everybody Wins using Understanding into an “do what I say OR ELSE” enforcement band and then created the Sea Organization as the OR ELSE.
Michael A. Hobson
Independent Scientologist
Thanks Chris for taking the time to answer this so clearly. I can now hear what you are saying about the APPLICATION of the tech and the necessity of knowing that there are those who can apply the tech standardly.
In my view, what is being done on this blog by Marty is the introduction of various different truths … which if viewed, can lead to a broader understanding of life.
AND doing that … can actually help someone (like me for example) understand what LRH is saying. I’ve understood LRH better BECAUSE of my buddhist studies, not less and have marveled at many of the parallels.
Anyway — thanks for continuing to tackle this subject.
Love,
Christine
It is difficult to write with emotion. I guess thats what “emoticons” are for, but for some reason I loath them. There is one I think means the same as “pie face”: 😐
And to top it off- Scientology in the Church doesnt even work.
My opinion is that I dont really know enough to comment on his case or personality other than maybe from his lectures. There are stories and rumors, but i’m no longer really interrested in whether they are true or what they might mean. It just doesnt matter one way of the other. I mean, if he was really nuts and did some really bad stuff- child molestor or somthing, you know I might cringe and it would probably have an effect on my interest in the subject, but it would have to be pretty irrefutable for me to give it any credence. Not because I believe LRH was infallible or super-human. i just dont care.
I dont think there is anything wrong with being a member and contributing to a group, so long as it is willingly and freely- mentally, spiritually and physically. The Church is not this.
Yes…and it’s not for everybody.
OMG, poor, idiotic puppet. I feel a strange pity for Lynch, such a pathetic fool dutifully and unthinkingly doing the bidding of a power hungry psychopath, imagining that he is humiliating himself into an eternity of blissful freedom from his present debased existence. I guess if it weren’t for Scientology Inc., Lynch would be selling flood insurance in the high deserts of Nevada or used cars at subway stations in Manhattan. A fool by any other name is still a fool. Poor, pathetic fool.
I am reminded of so many lessons from Dostoyevsky’s “Notes from Underground.” Humans only moan about pain in order to spread their pain to others. Lynch is merely a soon-to-be squashed insect chosen to infect the vibrancy of an independent culture for which he is no match. Like the female mosquito, his siphoning of lifeblood results in a temporary, itchy nuisance which lasts a little longer than the deadly swat that extinguishes the parasite’s ability to suck blood from its host.
What a sad, quiet sacrifice of a meaningless existence.
Nancy
I dont mean to address that specifically to you. I do have a “button” on this perhaps. I apply the concept broadly and I think it’s pretty good. I am a creative person and I have a genius IQ (whatever that means) and I used to always thinkn I could see everything and knew the “best way”, and I think I was right a lot of the time. But I think it’s good to learn to make sure you really duplicate first. This is a dumb little example, but it’s simplicity makes it a good analogy I think: When I make rice I follow the directions on the bag as exactly as possible. I dont get all weird about it, but I’ll just follow the directions. I’ll use my smarts and creativity in following the directions. Then, if the rice sucks I know the directions suck, but even then I need a certainty with good obnosis that I did infact follow the directions. 99.9% of the time the rice is good and people say “man, this rice is good”. Beware of people with bad rice telling you the rice was defective, or they “read” the directions. If you check, you will always find they didnt.
Maybe your right Newcomer, maybe it better to stay sensible and civilized about all this and don’t do anything that could be considered unruly.
I’d like to ack you for that, Chris.
LRH was not a saint but he gave us something NO saint gave Mankind.
Haha.. you made me lough.
What you say is true. 🙂
Hi Chris,
Yep, that is what I was talking about. If you look at the earlier out-point of having a monopoly on the tech. It doesn’t work out. So if that wasn’t happening, if the tech was free flowing, things would have or could have worked out differently. I think it is good to revue the op basis that Scientology adopted and see exactly where it went wrong. I think that is happening.
We are at the beggining of a reformation. It’s a hard place to be. I think it will work out just fine though.
I like your writing style, it’s calm and intelligent. Have a nice week.
Good job Theetie wheatie… (lol)
It is true to me, what you said. People leave for all sorts of reasons. If people were smart, if I had been smarter, I would have left the cult years earlier and saved myself a ton of grief and money. I love the tech. I have had lots of wins with it. I learned a lot reading LRH too. But the group insanity is an added inapplicable. If you look at the data series, LRH talks a lot about mocking up the Ideal scene. Well, the current cult is about as far removed from an Ideal scene as I can think of.
Glad you made it out. Hope you can get some auditing in the Indie field if you are still interested.
Chris and anyone else this may apply to: Though Marty says he has stated his point over and over again, there still seems to be some fundamental confusion and disagreement here.
The fact that he isn’t being duplicated in full is also an acknowledgement of exactly the points he has made.
I’m not going to interpret Marty, but let me share my own observation and school of thought and maybe this will shed some light on the subject of KSW and LRH being “right” or “wrong”.
Nowhere in any of the blog posting by Marty that I have read does Marty say or even insinuate that you shouldn’t apply the tech exactly. Now what does applying the tech exactly mean? It means different things at different levels.
At the beginning of the training levels it means to apply your commands, processes and sequence of commands exactly as written. I have never seen Marty negate this.
Higher on up, past Cl VI and especially VIII it means to apply the tech based on the PC in front of you so as to handle his/her exact problem, whatever it is. It includes “playing the piano” but is fundamentally based on a superb understanding of the anatomy of the mind and therefore ALL tools available can and should be used and this too is applying the tech exactly at this level. Nowhere have I seen Marty negate this.
I haven’t observed Marty audit, but I can bet my life on the fact that when he uses a process he uses is exactly according to his understanding of the tech. I’m pretty sure he doesn’t have a PC call his mother-in-law while on a session break on the Power processes; I’m pretty sure he doesn’t run NOTS on an ARC straightwire PC; I bet he doesn’t run NED on a confirmed Clear, etc, etc. Maybe I’m wrong here, but there is nothing in any of his postings which indicates otherwise.
Has Marty stated that you shouldn’t apply the tech exactly? No, in that context he hasn’t. Has he stated that KSW as a policy and its implementation and application has resulted in a Church and environment that not only is not working demonstrably, but also shows that the “problem(s)” started way before DM and if anything DM only used the existing scene to forward his own means? Yes, he has.
So, in one way there seems, by Marty’s own postings, to not be a disagreement how to apply the tech of auditing, but rather what KSW did as far as the mentality of the organization and individuals.
It was very clear that integration was part of an LRH strategy in the 50’s. Just read the first 4 books. It is also very clear that integration got annihilated by the mid-60’s, witness KSW and other policy in that series as well as Justice policies from the mid to late 60’s.
This was not changed by DM, or someone else but this was changed by LRH. Does Marty say LRH was “bad” because of it? No. Does he say the auditing technology and the principles of the applied philosophy is less or not valid or should be squirreled? No. Does he say that LRH had some evil intention in doing so? No. Does he say that LRH did so? Yes. What it means and how LRH should be viewed is up to you to decide. Marty is just asking you to look but is not stating otherwise.
He simply says that throughout the history of Scientology certain policies and practices went into play which resulted in how Scientology is today and he has pointed out that maybe Scientology today is not as effective as it should be, at least as far as integrating it into society as a whole, its general acceptance, etc. Does he say the applied philosophy is bad? No. Does he say it is the only workable philosophy? No. Does he try to open our eyes to the true workability of the tech as well as other points of view so as to forward technology, philosophy and principles that have empirically been proven helpful, workable and constructive? Yes.
Does he REALLY try to get people out of the ingrained cult-think? YES!
Marty has not only been privy to all the traffic ever issued by LRH, is familiar with the auditing technology as well as the organizational technology and history, but has a great ability to differentiate and point out things to consider.
Yes, Marty doesn’t hand us the “answers” on a silver platter but rather he is inviting us to think for ourselves. Isn’t that after all what LRH was always trying to do?
Thanks for listening, Ulf
Chris,
Where KSW #1 falls short of workable is that it applies to the entire subject of Scn (admin, tech and ethics), and does not differentiate importances. For example: I certainly would not want my auditor to alter the Laws of Listing and Nulling. Compare that to HCO PLs regarding the Addressograph machine. Today, the only place you’ll find one is in a museum. Should an administrator use his judgement, experience, knowledge and adopt a new method of managing/printing CF addresses (e.g. computer-based)? I think that answer is self-evident. Is that administrator “altering” the admin tech? Of course he is. Is he wrong? Of course not.
The application of KSW is not a black and white issue when judgement is allowed. If you forbid judgement, like RCS has done, KSW becomes black and white. LRH’s words become gospel and are applied literally. At which point Scn, the applied religious philosophy, becomes dogmatic. It’s adherents no longer thinking or evaluating, blind devotion.
Personally, I think the auditing and training technology of Scn should be off-limits to alteration. However, there is one exception that I would make – the E-Meter Simulator. I think this is a worthwhile addition and has value. But, you see, I’m using my “judgement” when I say that. The rest of the Golden Age of Tech I would seriously and critically review.
These types of changes should be put through a rigorous pilot, closely monitored and analysed. Then a panel of top tech terminals would adjudicate whether the “advancement” has merit. This is effectively what LRH did, he tried it out, stepped back, looked at the result, “Did it work?”, “Did it get the desired result?” – and then judge. RCS doesn’t really do that anymore. Instead, I think you have know-best individuals dominating and directing the “advancement” of Scn.
Sorry if this turned into a rant…
Please excuse my typographical error above, the comment should read:
“I was still in high school” and “all of this has just unfolded”. I don’t want to alarm any readers that perhaps I may not have even done the Primary Rundown while I was in the church! 🙂
Thanks for pretty accurately summing it up Ulf.
Overkill. And adjudicates whether your KSW 1-10 is in or not? There are no absolutes. From my personal experience and observations, if there is a situation which warranted goldenrod or justice, you will, by default, be charged with Failure to Apply KSW. At that stage the charge is pretty much meaningless, since rarely is any data provided to justify such a charge. This is a mockery of what LRH intended.
I’m an “Open Source” advocate in the world of computers. So, I align with your comment. There is progress to be made. And it should be made.
I think most here agree with what is wrong about corporate Scientology. But I must acknowledge what they did well: the Quantum E-meter. It wasn’t possible to make one cost effective and portable in 1952. What better advances could we make in the Independent field?
I agree with you Mike.
Wow! Amy Scobee is the cousin of a hero who gave his life saving others, Roland L. Scobee! Ironically, the founder of Scientology was the distant cousin of a hero, “Uncle” Alan Burton Hall!