Mike Rinder


A recent comment on this blog stated “Mike Rinder spent many years of his Scientology career ordering or exacting unethical tactics against critics of Scientology because that was his job”, and  “I hope you were aware that this (harassment) was going to happen, because that is what Scientology’s OSA does to its enemies. It ain’t all DM. Ask Mike Rinder.”  When I used to peruse the natter boards I saw plenty of comments demanding Mike Rinder confess his alleged sins to named and unnamed critics.  While I am sure Mike will express whatever regrets he might have to whomever he believes deserves them – because I’ve seen him do so – it occurred to me a lot of folk have some pretty odd notions about the type of person Mike Rinder really is.

I have confessed in a number of public forums to inflicting physical violence upon Mike on two occasions, both during my final days at Abu COB prison.

Having recounted that nightmare on a number of occasions and having had a lot of time to reflect on those twisted times I came to recognize what a quality person Mike Rinder is and always has been.

Miscavige leaned on me hard for many years to treat Mike “as an SP.”  That pressure was particularly intense when Mike would, in his inimitable style react in a nonchalant, collected fashion to Miscavige’s wild dramatizations while demanding some horrible fates be inflicted upon some person exercising his or her God given right to express disagreement with Miscavige abuses. That included members of the media and members of the general public.

Mike’s attitude of “why sweat it? People have opinions. I’ll express mine or the Church’s in response, and we’ll move on” triggered many a Miscavige psychotic break. It was what motivated the at least one dozen severe, criminal assault and batteries I witnessed Miscavige visit upon Mike.  Realize, that is only what I witnessed with my own eyes. Mike conservatively estimates there were more than fifty such acts of violence, and I believe he is being very conservative as is Mike’s wont.

One thing struck me as very odd when I returned from two years of training on the ship after the IRS exemption and my 93 blow. At that time ARS was the big wave of attack being dealt with at OSA. Several times I heard Miscavige ranting at Rinder and/or Kurt Weiland about getting the PIs out on those posting on the board, especially those saying things about Miscavige in particular. Mike and Kurt both were reluctant to.  I understood their reticence.  Last time I was on external lines we pretty much reserved PIs for serious threats like hundred million dollar lawsuits, or potential IRS jeopardy assessments that could have literally resulted in all Chuches being shut down overnight.  Our experience had been that when you started playing heavy handed with someone who was merely critical or expressing an opinion all you were likely to accomplish was creating a bigger situation. And it was that kind of  “counter intention” that resulted in many of Mike’s punishments.

In a sort of way Mike Rinder was of service to those simply wanting to communicate. That included the media. In fact,  for the past six months Miscavige has been squandering the capital of credibility and trust that Rinder was primarily responsible  for gaining with the media over his many years of service. Miscavige and his  minions are taking extraordinary measures to silence several media outlets from airing his crimes and are spending the credibility capital like drunken sailors on shore leave to do so.

Fact of that matter is that for all the abuse Mike Rinder took, if he had had his druthers and the Church had followed his lead rather than Miscavige’s on external lines, a hell of a lot of people today invested in exposing Miscavology for the tragedy it is would be out doing something more positive like promoting solutions to world hunger and global warming and the like.

In retrospect, for all the heat and abuse Mike took for counselling equanimity for 95% of Miscavige’s external FLAPS, Mike Rinder was right 95% of the time.

I am glad to count him as a very close friend.

119 responses to “Mike Rinder

  1. I think even this description of Mike Rinder is very understated. When Adolf Miscavige smashed Mike’s head into the wall in an effort to kill him, it was basically because of something I failed to do. Mike tried to help after I refused to follow Adolf’s crazy and suppressive orders. Now most people, when they get attacked violently because of you, they would normally give you an earfull or at least say something in anger like “Thanks for getting my head smashed in.”

    Mike said no such thing. He hadn’t even one single unkind word to me. That told me what kind of man Mike Rinder is and in that moment I made up my mind to leave the Sea Org.

    In my opinion, Mike Rinder is about as good as it gets. I also feel lucky to count him as a friend.

  2. Just unbelievably beautiful!

    Congrats to both of you for stepping up to the plate!

  3. Mike you look good – welcome to the rebellion! How does it feel to no longer belong to the “dark side” of the force?

  4. Beautiful Photo.

    Unforgettable emotion seeing you two together.

    I´m very, very grateful to see that smiles.

    You deserve that wellbeing both.

  5. Wow!! This is exciting! I have been waiting to see more of Mike Rinder. He looks great by the way. I hope this is the beginning of a BE-U-Tiful new phase of our mission. I realized that these ex Sea Org guys had their hearts in the right place and maybe made some errors but now they come full circle and are in a position to really handle the hell out if things. I still like the positive things about the tech and I see Marty and Mike and all you other brave ex-Sea Org guys as taking it all the way to a real win. Thanks so much!!

  6. I, for one, greatly appreciate Mike Rinder and everything he has already done to help!

    I was one of the posters on ars from 1995-1997 and can attest that OSA didn’t go after me even in response to such things as the fake OT VIII briefing, “Masked NOTs” and other questionable involvements.

    Lastly, I want to tell “Mary McConnell” for the dozenth time that there is nothing wrong with the PTS/SP data. Understanding suppression and how it works allows one to confront suppression when it does occur. If we eliminated this technology as you keep suggesting, then how will people confront suppression when it does occur? You can look for yourself at what has happened to the PTS Church of Scientology!

  7. I remember commenting to a good friend of mine “that since Mike left. OSA has achieved new levels of incompetence”. What I meant to say was that Mike was one of the few sane terminals at OSA who made them seem competent and that with Mike gone that veneer has gone as well.

    You may not have agreed with what Mike did and how he did it but all I’d like to say is that I’m glad he’s now on our side now 🙂

  8. It’s so good to see the two of you looking so happy and healthy. I for one, will never question things done whilst caught up in DM’s world. We often find ourselves seeing things very differently when removed from a situation.
    God speed to both of you.

  9. You are both awesome beings. Love the beautiful pure joy on your faces! Stick together as best friends. We are behind you guys.

    Flourish & Prosper.

    This will kill the SP (DM).

  10. MissedGarbage Watcher

    I have no word to express my feeling well
    on this matter.

    I’m just pretty sure both Mike and Marty are decent people
    and Miscavige is a garbage.

  11. I just want to say that I think your assessment of Mike Rinder is spot on. I had only dealt with him a couple of times in the SO, but he always granted me beingness and seemed to be very level headed when those around him were frantic.

  12. “Several times I heard Miscavige ranting at Rinder and/or Kurt Weiland about getting the PIs out on those posting on the board, especially those saying things about Miscavige in particular.

    Our experience had been that when you started playing heavy handed with someone who was merely critical or expressing an opinion all you were likely to accomplish was creating a bigger situation.”

    Sounds like an open invitation for more reports on exactly how naughty Davy has been.

  13. I wondered why Tom Cruise was making the Staufenberg movie.
    My opinion was that this would not be a typical american style
    thing. Amercans in the movies like other types of heroes like
    Arnie or Sly played.
    Maybe Tom knew deeply in his heart that there was something
    wrong and communicated it the way he can.

  14. Is

    “Mike’s attitude of “why sweat it? People have opinions. I’ll express mine or the Church’s in response, and we’ll move on”

    compatible with confronting and shattering suppression, destroying critics utterly and finding or manufacturing a threat against them as I think Mr Hubbard might have ordered?

  15. As a former staff, and now public Scientologist observing from the sidelines … I can only give praise to Mike Rinder. His ability to remain calm, think on his feet and appear professional and poised … in the heaviest of storms … truly amazed me. I could see Mike’s love and understanding of the core subject of Scientology come through, despite what I imagine were extremely difficult times.

    Mike, if you are reading this (and to you too Marty), there are so many of us out here that just love the subject of Scientology … and we just want to see the Church reflect that subject.

    I love LRH and think the tech is brilliant. But it seems to me that certain policies need updating / cancelling / developing. Do you agree? And if so, how do we accomplish that?

    If we could elect a new COB right now, I would nominate Mike in a heartbeat.

  16. It would be great to hear Mike’s story, albeit I doubt we’ll ever get to find out?

  17. Marty, it is all very well and very nice what you wrote.

    I know for a fact that most scientologists are good people and I’m happy Mike is a good one too, and I understand he found himself between the hammer and the anvil.

    I just read again the CoS criminal activity directed at David Mayo http://www.freezone.org/reports/e_mayo02.htm

    That too may be captioned “What your donations buy”.

    That (and more) is the kind of evil Scientology is criticized for, and Mike was instrumental in it. We learn now that he was ordered, threatened and physically beaten to act that way. It lessen his responsibility, but it does nor not take it away.

    I applaud Mikes refusal to settle with Miscavige, a clear sign that he is getting his integrity back and taking responsibility.

    I suppose all the cards cannot be put on the table at once until the war against the sadistic Miscavige is over. But eventually all the CoS dirty laundry must be aired and apologies given publicly where due.

    The prize of pulling O/W out of the Church will be a better life for all, both in and out of Scientology.

  18. As an uninvolved lurker, I can believe that Mike Rinder was victimized by the church and when outside their influence is a basically decent fellow. And I can believe that he may have “counsel[ed] equanimity” in his OSA role. But I also think that if the many accounts of harrassment and abuse by OSA are true, and the pattern of misleading the public as spokesman for the church is true, then those were also actions of the “real” Mike Rinder, and victims of the church can hardly be faulted for holding him responsible.

  19. Patty Pieniadz

    Marty says:

    “In a sort of way Mike Rinder was of service to those simply wanting to communicate. That included the media. In fact, for the past six months Miscavige has been squandering the capital of credibility and trust that Rinder was primarily responsible for gaining with the media over his many years of service. ”

    I believe you are mistaken. There was little to no credibility or trust by the media. Up until the Tom Cruise video was released, most media was in fear of Scn lawsuits and threats and this fear was created by the application of LRH polices on handling sources of entheta. I say this as I’ve worked with major media for the past few years and can personally state that there was no credibility or trust, just fear and loathing.

    It’s a huge move to openly criticize the cult. A person should do it when they are good and ready and not before. That applies to Mike Rinder as well as any other person that has left Scn.

  20. Michael Brandon

    Sorry, Marty, but it seems to me you’re using the same excuse for beating Mike Rinder as the guards/commanders of Nazi concentration camps; “I was only following orders.” It wasn’t a viable excuse for them either.

  21. Hello Mike! Fantastic to see you around and in rude health!

    I think (hope) collectively we all do our “bit” for global problems, but tackling institutional suppression is in its own way every bit as important, IMHO. In fact they go hand in hand. Imagine a world with DM and his apprentices at strategic points of the world’s comm lines, as he wants. Doesn’t bear thinking about. Besides, this is a problem we can be cause over, and the ramifications of handling it will be far-reaching. It’s not a local parochial affair, it affects very many people in many ways.

    I love it that OTs are working together on this issue. As LRH said after the Rhodesia trip in ’66 “One OT working alone could not do much…but a group of OTs would be irresistable”!

    Keep up the good work. My gratitude and admiration to you both.

  22. thatsnotmyname

    Get a grip, Michael Brandon. The level and intensity of mental and physical abuse suffered is going to break anyone, and unless you have been subject to it, don’t judge.Read or re-read http://www.scientology-cult.com/mechanisms-of-miscavige.html to get an inkling of how it works. Here are guys who have drawn from very deep wells of courage, not only to release themselves, but free others from this abomination. Talk about ethics change! I for one support Marty, Mike, Amy and the others who are taking action 100%, and suggest others do too.

  23. Michael, Marty is not making excuses. He’s taking responsibility. When he wrote “And it was that kind of ‘counter intention’ that resulted in many of Mike’s punishments” Marty is referring to the 50+ times Mike was beaten by David Miscavige, plus all the hundreds of other verbal, emotional, and psychological abuses he endured. Both Marty and Mike are very decent men with good intentions who are helping to bring transparency, accountability and justice. It’s not an easy job.

  24. Margaret,
    I’m with you 99.9%. There will NEVER be another COB as the post is a myth created by DM as an SP and has no place in the Scientology movement. Once this guy has a period put to him, that period is for this post too.

  25. Mark, it’s not fair to take my comments out of context. Readers can find the 2 posts here:

    I was not attacking Mike in my comments. I was just stating facts. I am very glad Mike is out. I am equally concerned about the harassment he mnight be going through that you and your family are going through. It’s wrong to oppress other’s freedoms. As I documented in the above in reply to Jan, All SP’s are Fair Game and always have been and nothing has changed since Hubbard wrote his Dissem manual and other references not created by DM. That was my point in the other thread. It was not an attack on anyone. I want DM taken down as much as everyone else. But you cannot get an as-isness without duplicating the truth for what it is. Anyone leaving Scientology is one moving on up in the right direction. Mike Rinder. We are all responsible for our participation. I hope and pray that Mike keeps safe and does what he has to do to get the truth out – the truth of the inhumane crimes he endured and that so many others in the Sea Org are enduring. I hope he avoids person harm of any kind. I wish that for anyone who leaves and is harassed. The onlky way to break the cycle of Fair Game is to expose it. Mike Rinder may well be the man to do it.

    So, as you are being Fair Gamed by Miscavige, I suggest you and Mike really take any shutters off that may prevent the truth from being seen.

  26. martyrathbun09

    Mary, I didn’t mean to target you. But, I still think you are missing the point. I don’t know who you are or what your experience or knowledge is. But, when folk make comments to the effect it is not all about DM and it is really Hubbard policy I gather you are not considering the totality of what has been posted here. Attempting to re-open the Fair Game argument is regression. It has been fully and fairly aired – and it is accessible on the blog spot. Did you not hear me, or not believe me, when I wrote during that dead horse argument I had never heard of the policy till five years in and it was only because it was attached to pleadings by people suing the Church? Did you not hear or believe the several other former high ranking officials who confirmed it is not a policy that is even studied in the Church for thirty years? Continuing to press this argument is providing a defense to a man who is as we chatter is imprisoning hundreds of souls and subjecting them to mental and physical torture. I am in this to end that. I begin to wonder whether some people are walking around with blinders on while demanding I remove mine.

  27. Hello to both of you,

    You are awesome. I had lots of questions when I was in SO. Why do RTC or Int management behaves that way or this way. Now I understand everything or a big part of it. I loved to have the Exec Strata with their evals….. after a while it was gone ????? Why ??? I understand now. Thanks for clearing up all those questions on all your threads, articles….. this is great to have you there.

  28. I have had similar experiences with Mike as those expressed by Thoughtful. In 1992, DM shattered his lower leg playing basketball with Tom Cruise and Dustin Hoffman and some others and was laid up most of that summer. He decided to get the What Is Scientology? redone. The three principal writers were Dan Sherman, Trevor Meldal-Johnsen (RIP) and me. Mike was the executive over the project and therefore the one to find himself on the receiving end of DM’s ire when one of us would write something that did wasn’t up to par. It was a noisy, flappy summer and never once did Mike forward DM’s human emotion and reaction onto us, the perpetrators. That’s not to say Mike didn’t get us to handle whatever needed to be done but he had this ability to end cycle on DM’s misemotion and get back to work. Not many have this ability. LRH had it. So does Mike.

  29. Seeing Marty and Mike standing together, it seems to increase their power 10X.

    I would think Scn Mgmt would wish to drive a wedge between you 2, to disperse your combined power, and to stop us from communicating on this blog.

    What we are witnessing is a true Democracy. We express our ideas freely. We each can accept or reject what others say. We each learn to evaluate Truth for ourselves.

    As an internet community we have a voice here. Just as Mike and Marty standing together increases their power, the 10s or 100s or 1000s who stand here together, increase our power that much more.

    If you don’t believe we are in a new age, witness the democracy movement in Iran. In spite of heavy govt suppression and physical violence, the message got out via new media. The protesters, in great physical danger, found their voice.

    Welcome to the Revolution.

  30. I hope that a Liberal Scientology emerges.

    Just like there are liberal Christians who don’t believe the Bible is “perfect” and that Jesus didn’t raise from the dead, the world can have a Scientology that doesn’t believe all its claims: like that it “founded bio-physics” – FOT; and that its upper levels are physically dangerous for those that are not ready for them.

    Hubbard himself says his system isn’t perfect. He does claim it is “workable.”

    So can’t the world enjoy a liberalized tech and disbelieve such claims?

    I think that if people knew all the truth, good and bad, about Hubbard and Scientology, that the tech could be enjoyed for its value as an experience and not as the “ultimate solution for the world.”

    A liberal Scientology allows for people to examine the Tech from any perspective and welcome critics instead of gaming against them or avoiding them.

    EXAMPLE: A liberal Methodist Church is a community that helps people know God while sharing the mythology of Jesus.

    It’s usefulness is not based on the “truthfulness” of Jesus’ miracles and teachings, but rather the time-tested power of a myth’s ability to TRANSFORM a life.

    Just like liberal Methodists practice Christianity without the burden of a “world burning in hell,” Scientologists could practice their tech without forcing the belief that engrams are actual things, but rather are “metaphors” the body creates that are useful as a spiritual practice.

    A “story” to attach meaning to: a body metaphor.

    And if one practices the story, the engrams will “feel” true whether they are real or not. Much like how “chi” is felt by people who practice Tai-Chi, yet strangely cannot produce any reproducible proof of chi’s existence under strict scientific conditions.

    I feel “chi” when I practice, but I believe it is a “story” my body has created – and I love it.

    And if one believes engrams are real, it doesn’t matter. Fine. Enjoy.

    “Skeptic sit right next to the believer. Come enjoy our story.”

    And such a structure allows people who have made the tech a central part of their life to have a place to reclaim it after their taking severe losses and maintain the art they have worked on and trust.

    And they can do this regardless whether or not they believe it is “true.”

  31. Wow ! Beautiful !

    I Think Mike should get back on Post and handle the misconceptions about Scientology (not COS) the way Geir is doing it on his block, so Geir can work on other stuff. If you read the blog of Gear you’ll see that with reason and Arc alone he is able to handle heavy Antagonism about Scientology. Isn’t that the hat of Mike ? Pls people move fast I would like to have my church back now and not in 20 years !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  32. Hi BT,
    I think that a lot of Sea Org members went into it with a sincere desire to help improve conditions and no doubt they did get duped a bit. I give them lots of credit for having the guts to do what they did and make the mistakes and come out the other side. This is the theta-mest theory. ( see the book Science of Survival if you don’t know what that is.) Now they can withdraw form the collision and have increased awareness and KRC. I see them as being in a totally different and higher spiral. I see this as the next gradient in the transformation/evolution of Scientology.

  33. Hi Thoughtful,
    You are a very cool guy. You are also funny as hell! I don’t know if you are Jeff Hawkins or not, but I just finished reading his book and it was spectacular. If you are not him, what did you think of that story? If you are him, do you still like the auditing tech?

  34. Mike, you look better than I’ve seen you look in years. I hope your life is good now.

    I worked with Mike for many years. While we may not have agreed about everything, I always found him to be intelligent and willing to listen. And I never saw him abusing others, despite the abuse he received from Miscavige. Mike was, without question, THE most abused person at the Int Base. He was rarely allowed to sleep. He was physically beaten by Miscavige on many occasions. How he managed to carry on with his work and deal with media I do not know. He has great reserves of strength, which I hope are serving him well now that he is out.

    In a completely insane environment like that, people sometimes do insane things. Those of us who were in that environment cut each other a lot of slack. Endless apologies and contrition are not needed or asked for. It is enough that people are out and are recovering. And speaking out against the abuse.

  35. Marty and Mike,
    I am quite moved by this post and very happy to see you both together and looking so well. What you have had to collectively endure during your time “in” will never be totally understood by those that never had those experiences. I admire your courage and tenaciousness to correct the wrongs, the wrongs that only such as yourselves truly know exist. You(we)will prevail..of this I am positive. Our work’s success is, I believe, only made possible by what you and Mike and the others from Int Base and Int Management are doing and have done over the years. Thank you.

  36. This thread is probably killing DM to read. Arrgggh!!!! I can just hear him clamoring about how he should have kept Mike locked up permanently so “this” [even more exposure of DM’s human rights violation] wouldn’t happen.

    Yep, Miscavige was unable to break Mike Rinder. Through incredible willpower, he’s still standing with his personal integrity in tact.

    And he was unable to break Marty, myself, Jeff Hawkins, Steve Hall, Tom De Vocht, Marc Headley and many others who have had the courage to stand up for what is right and shed light on the truth, despite all the physical and emotional abuse and defamation repeatedly dished out by Miscavige.

  37. Undisturbed,
    Your point on driving a wedge is well taken. That is one of DM’s favorite little numbers. He does it in person, on vias and however he can. He attempts to disperse attention from his own actions with it. He’ll try and wrap well-intentioned beings up in questioning and doubting and carping and fighting. It’s classic ‘third party’ actions.

    However, the ‘jig is up’. That tune has been played, it’s over. Beings who can hold a position are holding it and together. That’s a lot of power generating. That’s a lot of free life energy directed very precisely at him and his suppression. That’s a lot of postulates and live communication on a B-line to his dark, dirty area. That jig is only in its first turn, the whole piece is gonna play and the finale is lining up to be quite something.

  38. Hi Alex,
    Thanks for the compliment. Jeff and I are old friends and marketing warhorses. Jeff’s online book is priceless. Creating it required great fortitude and industry, but those traits are Jeff’s trademarks. Regarding the tech, auditing has always worked for me. I will soon be on Solo NOTs and I spend weekends delivering the Grades (gratis) to a pc. I used the tech to rebuild my own life and I’m using it now to get ethics in on Adolf Miscavige. I also run the http://www.scientology-cult.com website.

  39. Bunkai,
    I can agree with your gentle approach. On the ‘strict scientific’ aspect it might not be known to you that the recent debunkai of the ‘strict scientific’ myth of ‘hardwired’ brains was done by observation of Tibetan Buddhist monks manipulating their brains. It is now realized that the brain is plastically able to be regulated by what appears to be something senior to the cellular arrangement.

    Function monitors structure, an evaluation made in the first thesis of Dianetics. I wouldn’t minimize your affect on the structure your walking around in. Perhaps you can do what the Buddhist monks can and astound ‘strict science’ yourself.

    I personally consider the miracle of Jesus is that love is senior to all the force ‘science’ has ever stood spectating. Why, it can be created.

  40. martyrathbun09

    And Shelly Corrias, and Gary “Jackson” Morehead, and Jackie Wolf, and Eric Knutson, and Russ Williams, and Claire Headley, and Mark Fisher, and Bruce Hines, and….

  41. martyrathbun09

    Brilliant comment.

  42. “Liberal Scientology” has existed within the freezone community for well over 25 years.

  43. Has someone proposed a post-Miscavige top level management structure somewhere?

    What was LRH’s vision for it?

  44. That thread is ampy covered in the scientology-cult website. LRH’s estate planning, the org board in place when he left that body, the OEC volumes, the Management Series, it’s all there. It’s been addressed on this blog and many others.

    No need for a new mousetrap. No need for a ‘COB’. One ‘uniquely qualified’ COB has been more than enough. Let’s deep six that post and put it alongside Der Fuhrer.

  45. Marty, the commenter calling herself “Mary McConnell” (but better known as Out_Of_The_Dark on ars) ~has to have~ an OSA that fair games people!

    If OSA doesn’t use these tactics, then her own past use of these same actions against Scientologists would imbalance the situation. On ars at least, she has several times researched people’s names and addresses and posted them (or sent the gathered intel to others to use) while always hiding behind her own anonymity.

    (It doesn’t benefit anyone for her to dramatize the evil OSA created by her imagination.)

  46. I knew Mike Rinder would be out eventually. I had hoped it would have been sooner. I found him to be a very normal, considerate guy. Actually a class act as a young man. I cant imagine what its like after 35 years or so on staff. But he looks good. He was riased in a scientology family and its all he has ever known. I hope he does well. He has the gifts to succeed.
    He has my best wishes.

  47. Hi Thoughtful,
    Thanks for the response. It is cool that you are not Jeff Hawkins because now I know there are many awesome beings out there! That is great to hear about your auditing wins! I have done Solo Nots and had lots of great wins on that level. I have read most or your stuff on your site and really liked it a lot!! I would post or write to you on your site but I heard it is not hack proof and don’t want OSA to find me quite yet.

  48. I think Ron’s vision for a post Miscavige org is covered in the OEC Vols particularly Vol 7 and 0.

    I think any structure that isn’t covered under policy should be jettisoned and that we should move back to the “old” SH WW org board.

  49. Er….if this comment seems non sequitur it was supposed to be in response to Margaret’s
    Has someone proposed a post-Miscavige top level management structure somewhere?

    What was LRH’s vision for it?

  50. Thank you for this wonderful post – and for all of the heart felt responses. They were so nice to read and I (we) can see and feel the strength and passion of our side growing daily. Yes! Hallelujah!

  51. When I was socializing on ESMB and heard people go on rants about specific people (like Mike) who had left, it made me very sad. It must be just awful to finally have the energy to walk away from EVERYTHING to NOTHING and then find no support on the other side. People are influenced by suppression, stress, confusion and group think. Whether in a church or a marriage or a job. We shift who we are. I am glad Mike has stopped contributing to the madness and I forgive anyone and everyone for going crazy in that arena. I am just glad you are both out, alive and communicating. I know you, as we all did, had noble intentions and made huge sacrifices. We’ve ALL done crazy things under stress and moments of blindness. We ALL helped make that big baby called CofS. Our fingerprints are all over it, everyone us. I feel sorry for the folks that are still totally focused on it from outside and in that even though they walked away years ago, still obsess with fixated attention and CAN’T GET OUT with their attention and move forward to create a new life. I feel bad for the people who have become cops and investigators and terrorists. Inside and out of the Scientology buildings. You both obviously were able to GET OUT. Thanks for all of the truth you have both contributed to us as a community of former S.O. members. And thanks for all you have done to make the world a better place.

  52. So very well stated, The Oracle

  53. Jim, I’ve read the scientology-cult website — there are several different ideas of what/who should exist in place of a COB position. From “a new social personality should be put at the helm”, to “not sure organized religion works”, to one of the Broekers. Can you either point me to the article at that website, or to the specific LRH estate plan where he lays it out, or the top level org board that was in place when he passed away?

    Or maybe an article could be written (if it hasn’t already) which documents exactly what LRH had in mind for Church management/leadership after he was gone. That would be really helpful.


  54. I agree with you Thatsnotmyname.
    Have a nice weekend Marty.

  55. Margaret,
    You sound like a sharp person. You’ve been on staff, in the SO and apparently now are ‘out here’. In all that time are you saying you haven’t been aware of the fact that LRH had in place CST, RTC, CSI and have never seen any material on the org structure, corporate entities and their respective purviews, hats such as a ‘board’ member as opposed to a function on an org board, etc.?

    Why, in the above paragraph are all the structures in place, with persons on posts, that were extant when LRH left. There was WDC, Exec Strata, Middle Management at the FB level, a structure at CST with actual Scientologists on posts. An RTC with a specific corporate relationship and exact duties was in place as well.

    There was, conspicuously, no ‘COB RTC’ with the absolute dictatorial authority as exists today. There is no such thing in Scientology policy or tech as an ‘only one’ a ‘uniquely qualified’ person to hold ANY post including this creation of Mr. Miscavige’s.

    Specifically there were posts that were set up to be checks and balances, including WDC Chairman, IG RTC, the CO’s of CST, CMOI, the Exec Dir Int, among others that LRH intended to be manned with comparable power to each other so that no one person would assume absolute control of the church. To wit, if one ‘went awry’ the others would handle.

    If you were on post in the early to mid 80s you would be familiar with this arrangement. If you were in the SO, you should be.

    Why don’t you study up on the Charters for CST and RTC say, available on the sc-irs-ology site (sans the conspiracy theory) and read the estate planning, the IRS docs that were put through the tests to gain the 501 (c) status, the Supreme Court case just prior as well as the Tax Court case which in particular clearly lays out the corporate responsibilities of each.

    Look at an org board and work out the 7 divisions and the lines vertical and horizontal.

    On the other side of the coin, I would be interested in you clearly laying out what you think should be the org board, whether or not there should be a single post at the pinnacle of it and what you think about this arrangement of checks and balances should be, if at all.

    After all, each person is faced with the ‘boots in the sky’ and responsibility for the dynamics. It’s part of the deal for true spiritual freedom.

    Let me know what you find and send me a mail at momrath65@yahoo.com.

  56. Margaret,
    While we’re at it, you and I, why don’t you tell me how many times the needle has to swing to be a valid FN? This is a question I have from your posting in Geir Isene’s blog. You can take this one to my personal mail site as well.

    I’ve read your posts and admire your persistence in digging to fact. The analytical mind is flawless, depending on the data it’s using so you make a lot of sense to me in that regard.

    I’m surely willing to shift and align and re-align data on the basis of logic, the somewhat idiotic rationalization of an immortal being seeking to survive.

  57. Hey Mike, good to see you. The two of you look great. Yes it appears the alliance is growing and strengthening by day.

  58. Jonathan, I’m sorry. You can repeat yourself over and over, but that doesn’t make you right, nor does it invalidate what Mary knows.

    It seems to me that there is a sliver of truth in the PTS/SP materials. ie. There is a very small – VERY SMALL – number of people who are so toxic to the individual that they must be disconnected from. And there is a small number who must be dealt with in ways that reinforce the power and dignity of the individual, and put a halt to controlling and manipulative person’s attempts to take power away from them.

    I recommend the series of books, dvd’s etc called “Boundaries” by Henry Cloud and John Townsend. (NB. Both are clinical psychologists.) They are the most enlightened and helpful materials I’ve ever come across in helping people establish personal boundaries and deal with controlling and manipulative people.

    There are many things I believe that are wrong with the PTS/SP “data”, including:

    * the falsehood that sickness and accidents happen because there is an SP somewhere in your life;

    * the false impression that there are so many anti-social people actively attacking or trying to suppress people of good will. You know one of the characteristics of cults and groups tending toward the cultish is the demonisation of an “enemy”, right? The fact is that most people are minding their own business and not actually trying to bring you down. Many scientologists once they get free seem to be pleasantly surprised at how lovely people are outside the CoS. Read ESMB if you doubt me;

    * The PTS/SP “data” seems to create an almost superstitious belief that these other people can cause harm to you and your life. Instead of empowering the scientologist to manage the relationship in a positive and powerful way, and to retain the power that the other person wants to have over them, scientology seems to empower the so-called “SP” and disempower the scientologist, limiting their options to either a shallow relationship or complete disconnection; and

    *the evidence shows that LRH and DM, among others, were not good at identifying so-called “SP’s”, given that so many of their closest confidantes and lieutenants ended up declared.

    One of the big issues I have with LRH’s writings is the way he instructed staff to be controlling and manipulative. He was quite explicit about it. Your experiences being regged are a direct consequence of those instructions. Many of you now say you were being regged for purposes that were not aligned with true scientology. So, how did the PTS/SP tech help you handle that scenario?

    Read/watch Cloud and Townshend. It’s good stuff.


  59. I’ve suggested before that we stop talking about “fair game”, for the reasons Marty has articulated. So, let’s assume that the fair game policy was cancelled in ’68. End of that argument.

    Instead, let’s talk about the fact that serious attacks have been executed and are being executed on people deemed to be “SP’s”. Call them whatever you will, we all know they have been happening since at least the late ’60’s, and they continue to happen. “Operation Freakout”, Gabe Cazares, Larry Wollersheim… etc, etc, etc, even down to recent false complaints to the Texas Bar Association (thankfully not serious) and the Child Welfare (to say the Headleys’ children were endangered).

    There’s a serious problem that needs to be addressed.

  60. I can’t resist! You writing about DM wanting PI’s sent out to harrass people posting on the Internet on ARS for saying bad things about him reminded me of this scene from the movie : Jay and Silent Bob Strike Back. I think you will get the connection after watching this clip!

  61. Alex, http://www.scientology-cult.com is indeed secure and I go to extremes to protect the identity of contributing authors. The email address listed on the web site goes directly to me. Get an account with hushmail.com or Anonymizer.com to make your emails more secure. Not sure where you heard the web site is “not hack proof” (no site is) but it sounds like an OSA rumor to stop you from reaching. No identifying info is kept anywhere on the website.

  62. So Marty,
    Do you think Bob Minton and Stacy Brooks were treated fairly and respectfully as adversaries, or was there an attempt to ruin them utterly? Didn’t they get about the same treatment as Paulette Cooper back in the 1970s?

    What does Mike think?

    I find it sort of ironic that you both report being pursued by PIs and harassed, yet say it’s a dead horse argument.

  63. martyrathbun09

    Heather, what on earth do you think we are doing here? To assign wrong causation though only perpetuates it.

  64. martyrathbun09

    Heather, I have a couple of comments on what you consider as four faults of the Scientology mechanics of suppression as follows:

    “* the falsehood that sickness and accidents happen because there is an SP somewhere in your life…”
    This is a mis-statement to one who has studied all the material. It can be suppression and one need not identify the suppressive that is ultimately responsible to create recovery.

    “* the false impression that there are so many anti-social people actively attacking or trying to suppress people of good will.”

    Again a misstatement of the body of work on the subject.

    “* The PTS/SP “data” seems to create an almost superstitious belief that these other people can cause harm to you and your life. Instead of empowering the scientologist to manage the relationship in a positive and powerful way, and to retain the power that the other person wants to have over them, scientology seems to empower the so-called “SP” and disempower the scientologist, limiting their options to either a shallow relationship or complete disconnection;”

    Again, mis-statement of the material. However, in practice in Miscavology, an accurate observation.

    “*the evidence shows that LRH and DM, among others, were not good at identifying so-called “SP’s”, given that so many of their closest confidantes and lieutenants ended up declared.”

    Well, that is the evaluation of a spectator of events that occurred long before you even heard of the subject of Scientology and long after Hubbard’s demise. With regard to DM, he is an SP, text book.

  65. martyrathbun09

    Ask Bob Minton what he thinks. You obviously haven’t. You have exposed yourself as a vandal – no matter what the facts or reason, you want to fight.

  66. Heather, in addition to Marty’s response, I want to add that disconnection is the opposite of being able to confront suppression. The church requires disconnection to keep people uninformed of David Miscavige’s abuses. In L. Ron Hubbard’s Scientology, disconnection becomes unnecessary except, perhaps, for someone who hasn’t yet finished studying the PTS/SP technology. The end result of the correct study and application of this technology is someone who is resilient to suppression.

  67. Major M – comment of the day!

  68. Marty, was this directed at me? I hope that’s not what you think.

    Going back to the previous comment, which bears my name, I think we’re in agreement, don’t you? ie. Fair game is the wrong name. Whatever the name is doesn’t matter, we’re talking about a long history of abuse of individuals. The history pre-dates Miscavige, but he is the current key perpetrator and we’re working on stopping those current abuses.

  69. Good points Jim.
    I had another thought. If DM is at the top of the Org board and there seems to be technically nobody who has the authority to take a justice action on him, doesn’t this infer that he is “infallible”? He has positioned himself to be “above the law”. Everyone else from Starke , Whilhelm etc can be taken to task except DM. Who died and left him as LRH? My suggestion is to give DM what others never got and that is a standard Comm Ev held on the internet. A full dress parade with interested parties and all the trimmings. Everyone could look over the charges and the stats and decide for themselves. The Web has become the external HCO to handle the situation tht DM has created.
    Maybe Marty or Mike could be the Convening Authority, that would be poetic justice!

  70. Something being missed here: Someone on the outside sees or hears of people being abused and harassed and attacked by the Church. Fine so far.

    Then, someone says, “It’s because of that ‘Fair Game’ policy!!!”

    That assumption is incorrect is what Marty is telling you. He didn’t say it’s not happening; of course it’s happening and been happening. It’s happening to us. No one is trying to minimize it.

    The point is, the reason it’s happening is NOT because of some long-canceled policy that Hubbard! It’s being done for another reason entirely.

    It’s happening because David Miscavige is a dirty, rotten, vicious jackal who will stop at nothing to protect his racket. You think he needs a policy from Hubbard to support his efforts to destroy people? No. When Miscavige has a problem with policy or tech, he simply re-writes it or bends it to his own purposes.

    Miscavige must be held accountable for his own acts and decisions. It’s not because of something Hubbard wrote that was canceled in 1979.

    Actually you have your fingers on the mechanism by which Miscavige pulls the wool over the eyes of Scientologists all the time: He tells them Hubbard said to do it. Right or wrong, it’s just a justification, not the real reason!

    Here’s a test: Go jump in the lake. Did you do it? Well, if you’re still dry, I guess you are responsible for your own actions.

    This is why Marty says Heather is missing the point. The problem isn’t a “policy” it’s a PERSON and that person doesn’t give a flying you know what about Hubbard’s policy. Marty and others in OSA never even used the term “fair game” and yet people are being harassed and abused.

    Furthermore, here’s Eldon now calling it all “ironic”… No, you don’t get what the “dead horse” is. The “dead horse” is attributing CAUSE to a canceled policy. The chickens aren’t dead because of Farmer Jone’s policy that all chickens should be tricked, hoodwinked or something… whatever. The chickens are dead because there’s a fat great wolf in the hen house eating chickens one by one.

    The great fat wolf says, “Well, (munch, munch) I’m just (chew) doing what L. Ron Hubbard said on the last page of a note he jotted down in the back of a pack of matches in 1962 while getting on a train, see. It’s not that I… (chew, munch, swallow) just care nothing for chickens except as for dinner.”

    To recap, someone has drawn an incorrect conclusion based on an incorrect assumption.

    Yes, Hubbard wrote that policy. But that’s not why it’s being done.

    What’s needed is to stop excusing criminality by saying, “He did it because of a policy.” That is just wrong. If you commit a crime, it’s not the fault of something in a book you once read. YOU are accountable for your actions. “Well, little Johnny murdered his sister and set her on fire. But it was all because of the Hansel and Gretel story his mother read to him at bedtime.” We should go after the Brothers Grimm, too! Oh we can’t, their dead. Well, so’s Hubbard. So why make the point?

    It’s time to grow up. People are responsible for their own actions. Period. Both sides need to understand that.

  71. That was funny!!

  72. I realised something quite amusing today: the primary purpose of the SO, as stated by LRH, is to get ethics in. By my reckoning that makes Marty, Mike et al founding Sea Org members!

  73. Jim, thanks for that data, it was helpful. I’ve been on staff before, but not S.O.

    Most staff and public do not know about CST, from my experience. They know about RTC and Int mgmt. But not CST. As staff, I thought I had some semblance of how things fit together up to RTC.

    But corporate and fiduciary ownership/control was never discussed and was always a bit of a mystery. And the upper echelons of management, other than knowing that I could write to RTC for any tech outness … I just didn’t ever deal with, and so they meant very little to me.

    Also, the events surrounding Pat and Annie Broeker are a mystery. Was Pat’s presentation at that “LRH dropping his body” event honest? Pat seemed nervous and like he was hiding something. Was that Loyal Officer issue actually written by LRH … or was it faked? I know you were close to Annie (from other posts you made) … have you ever documented and posted all that she told you regarding their last years with LRH?

    This is actually a question for anyone with first hand data of the events.

    I personally know about CST because I dug into it at the website you mentioned (minus the conspiracy nonsense). But I never knew if the Bylaws and Articles were by LRH or not. It seemed to have the hallmarks of LRH, and I suspected that he at least approved it … but I never knew. And then after LRH dropped his body, did DM or anyone change any of the corporate/fiduciary structures? Were there any amendments, board meeting minutes, etc? Who’s on the Board now?

    Anyway, I am looking and inspecting, and am trying to get to the truth. I do appreciate your help.

  74. Regarding F/Ns, “rhythmic” to me means at least one swing back and forth, but I could see how confusion could result from not specifically stating it. But now saying two back-and-forth swings seems overkill and seems to defy other LRH references, especially the ones which say “one doesn’t sit and wait for an F/N” and “fleeting F/Ns”. But these references still exist, and so one can always point them out in any would-be cram. (But I feel bad for the green auditors and examiners who aren’t yet aware of them.)

    But anyway, yeah, I agree with Joe that pc indicators are what matter most … and the meter is only a tool and a guide … and not the star attraction.

    But I am curious if the new HCOB is truly from EMeter Essentials as updated by LRH … or not.

  75. I would have to disagree with you Patty. From the perspective of an onlooker, the national US media (at least) has become much much more balanced towards Scientology, than frankly ever in its history.

    You might have seen it as “fear”, but it came across to most, I think, as more media fairness. It largely started building once the US gov’t started pointing out human rights violations in Germany in its State Dept reports in the mid-90s.

    It made a huge leap in fairness when it became know that Tom Cruise and other celebs where Scientologists.

    But sadly, it was then Tom Cruise … who fired his publicist and then started taking the podium about the evils of all of psychiatry … who did the most damage. It then went into a tailspin when Tom’s viral-video got out. Which sucks, because Tom actually seems like a nice guy.

    I could feel Mike’s pain from across the miles, when he knew that he would somehow have to not insult Tom but at the same time try to make the Church look professional and normal. (And Mike, you did as masterful a job as possible under the circumstances.)

    But frankly, this whole “psychiatry is the root of all evil” thing (as depicted in CCHR’s Museum of Death) was bound to catch up with the Church eventually in the PR world.

    I just never got that one. Is DM driving the CCHR insanity? Talk about damaging the Church’s credibility.

  76. It’s actually good to know that Mike was/is as sane and rational in real life, as he came across in interviews.

    To be honest, I really wish the St. Pete Times had interviewed Miscavige before The Truth Rundown. It would have been interesting to observe how he would have responded. Especially if the St. Pete Times had had all 14 former Int execs’ statements documented and ready to draw from … and corraborating each other.

    How do you deny it at that point?

  77. Oh, and Joe, nice job on WIS. It was really nicely done.

  78. p.s. I’m all for pointing out the dangers of psycho-active drugs, etc … but it’s taken to such a ridiculous, anachronistic, illogical extreme. Does DM have any idea how nutty and extremist it comes across?

  79. martyrathbun09

    You gave a laundry list of matters since the late sixties and collapsed them in with the chain of events in recent years. I am simply reiterating that to focus on ancient history is going to do nothing except provide a defense for Miscavige. To the degree folks focus on “policy” and “the whole damn subject is bad because it is inherent in it”, then you can kiss any sea change reform good bye. It is like the mind’s protection in Dianetics. You can knock yourselves out for the rest of your lives, and DM and the abuse will live on stronger than ever. Please see the Great Middle Path at Scientology-cult.com. It is no joke – regardless of how many WWPers want to attack it. The hard core anti-Scientologists are Dave’s best friends. Here’s another way to look at it. Had the Catholic lay movement that started making real inroads to making the Catholic church take responsibility for relatively recent, and documentable, widespread and institutionally covered up child molestation by priests, instead been driven by a bunch of rabid and irresponsible anti-Catholic twerps demanding the Catholic church address collaboration with Hitler, the atrocities of the Inquisition and burning books for a 1,000 years prior to that, they would have lost all credibility and not accomplished a damn thing.

  80. Jim, you wrote: “There was, conspicuously, no ‘COB RTC’ with the absolute dictatorial authority as exists today.”

    I gather from this that you mean the post (in name) existed, but DM turned it into something far different.

    I remember reading the TIME article in 1991 (after being on staff in the mid-80s) and hearing that Miscavige was considered the “leader”. I was like “Huh? … Miscavige is the leader?” I had always thought RTC was separate, and Miscavige was just the chairman of the board of RTC.

    Learning how things actually unfolded is really eye opening. I had hoped power wouldn’t corrupt once again … but it now appears to have done so.

  81. My sentiment exactly.

  82. Margaret,
    I’ll try and answer as many questions as I’m able to from your response. The position of Chairman of the Board of RTC was not the functional head of RTC that was in place when LRH left. That head of the org board of RTC was the Inspector General RTC. But, titles aside, there was no absolute authority assigned to either one. The ‘board’ position had no administrative power, much like any such position in a corporation. The functional operation of RTC was headed by the IG. That post was the ‘head’ of RTC. The Commanding Officer, if you will. It was not an autocratic post either. No such autocracy exists on any Scientology org board.

    The Charter of CST was as you’ve accurately observed, crafted and draft approved by LRH. Sherman Lenske’s sworn affadavits on the site you’ve looked at, sc-irs-ology for one, attest to that.

    The rest of the organizational structure was in place well before LRH left that body. It still exists in name. I do not know whether any of what LRH approved and or wrote of the Articles and Bylaws of any of these entities was altered subsequently. I do know that in terms of trusts, which in my understanding, includes these structures, that LRH wrote an irrevocable trust. If someone has changed that then there is likely cause for legal remedy. The court is decided on trusts, and irrevocable trusts mean what the term suggests.

    Your personal opinion of Pat Broeker’s demeanor at the event you mention is just that.

    I didn’t know the man.

    What I know of the so-called “Loyal Officer’ issue isn’t of importance in the scheme of things. Those titles aren’t on the org board as posts so aren’t really part of the original question as far as I can see. The org board is there whether those titles, which are after all ranks in the SO and not posts, exist or not.

    Write DM and ask him. Or find Pat and ask him. What Annie told me is my business at this point. If I had some crucial bit of data that wasn’t covered in well written LRH policies, then I’d have a hidden data line and that is covered in LRH policy. LRH written policy is the basis of agreement for the group, not my hidden data line.

    I have written that Annie told me unequivocably that LRH never intended a single person to control Scientology and he left in place a structure, the one we’ve gone over, to ensure checks and balances. That one is plain from what you’ve seen in writing. I’ve also written that she and DM conspired to remove DeDe Reisdorf from post as CO CMOI, without LRH approval beforehand and despite the fact that LRH appointed her. This was not well received by LRH when he found out and was only allowed after the fact due to Annie’s handling. Much later, while at Int, Annie told me she realized this was the overt preceding DM illegally removing her from her LRH assigned post of IG RTC. It was a mutual out-ethics situation and an ‘ethics blind spot’ for her. She was handling this just prior to my being declared an SP by DM and our divorce forced by him so she would ‘disconnect’ from me.

    I’ve often heard the saw on power corrupting. I’ve not come to a personal conclusion on that. I do know that when an SP is in power it’s miserable all around.

    I hope this clarifies some of what you asked.

    As to the current scene, if you persist on your road to truth, you’ll get there. I hope none of the dev-t of that scene will deter you on your Bridge. After all, individual spiritual freedom is the name of the game. With that of course comes a larger measure of cause and ability across the dynamics and together we’ll see a better future.

  83. Alex,
    There is LRH policy on a Scientologist who fails to apply ethics/justice to the world around him will be too enturbulated to do his job. (Paraphrased).

  84. Margaret,
    A GPM is a GPM, no matter who the terminals and opposing terminals are.

  85. Margaret,
    You’ve made the point in your response, a good Cram Off would take the entire list of LRH references from ‘idle needles’ in the earliest materials all the way through to the final issues on the subject and make sure the person understood them and could apply them.

    As to Emeter Essentials and the Errata of 1979, to the best of my knowledge those are LRH approved errata. I’ve no idea why DM decided to rewrite the 78 HCOB and include Emeter Essentials Errata in the revised issue. It seems redundant. Nevertheless, it still doesn’t justify any arbitrary number of swings on a needle to be a valid FN. As you point out, the other references are NOT cancelled and are valid. If one searches through the Tech Vols he’ll find lots of them and they are valid unless LRH cancelled them. He didn’t cancel th Oct 68 issue on them, the materials in RSes What They Mean, the material in Release Rehabilitation from 21 July 65, or 2 Aug 65 or the HCOB from 27 Sept 65 or 13 June 70 to name several.

    I know exactly what an FN is because I’ve studied all of these materials and seen thousands of them. I know exactly what I would cram somebody on if they had any question and I’d see they didn’t when they were done. It’s not THAT hard to grasp, unless you are being invalidated on your tech. That’s another situation entirely.

    As it covers in the VIII materials, there is NO substitute for understanding. That includes understanding what an, idle, free, floating needle is.

  86. Hillarious and true Thoughtful!!
    Did you see my suggestion that DM should be comm Eved on the Internet? I want you or Marty or Mike to be the Convening Authority and it could be done all official like. I think it would be a great PR coup and a valid internet justice action, since the Church HCO is in lowers! I would be willing to contribute money to this action and I am sure others would be willing to also. I donated a lot of cash to the COS and now I want some retribution.

  87. I just made a post to WPP, because I’m troubled by the manner in which some of us have been so quick to condemn Marty Rathbun, Mike Rinder, and others. Not simply the acts (alleged or otherwise) but as people too.

    Before I get to my point, I’ll just add that initially I was EXTREMELY concerned by Marty Rathbun’s possible motives. However, based on his subsequent actions, my view has shifted, and whilst “trust but verify” is still the position I’ll hold, I personally believe that there’s both a core of real decency, and a sense of being somewhat under siege behind much of what’s occurred recently.

    At any rate, the following short video documents a very famous experiment that shows that THE MAJORITY of ordinary, decent, law abiding people will consistently commit horrendous acts under the right circumstances.

    In this experiment the act is murder, and it’s worth noting, that both this experiment and variations on it, have been carried out numerous times since Professor Stanley Milgram first devised it in the 60’s.

    The results have always been the same.

    Part 1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QhTo3QmB_Yw

    Part 2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ISHeON3AsY0

  88. Jim, Thank you again for all of this data … I really appreciate it. Things are becoming clearer.

    Thank you also for your sane response on Pat Broeker. I haven’t met him either.

  89. Thoughtful, I’ve accepted Marty’s assertions about the policy having been cancelled, and said let’s move on from that. So, actually, I agree with you except that the problem isn’t a PERSON, I believe it is PERSONS!

    The current problem is Miscavige. My point is that, before Miscavige, Hubbard ordered attacks on his enemies as well. I’m not going to labour that, because I know many of you don’t want to discuss Hubbard’s offences.

  90. martyrathbun09

    Thank you for this scholarship. The Stanford Experiment
    is probably even more applicable to what went on (and
    still is going on) at International HQ.

  91. Marty, I wasn’t focusing on policy. I’ve posted above in response to Thoughtful what I meant.

    I think there’s a middle ground between saying:

    a) that the fair game POLICY was never cancelled (the position you refute); and

    b) the problem is only Miscavige (the problem many critics refute).

    Is that clearer?

  92. martyrathbun09

    Sort of, but not really. Jim, Thoughtful, myself and others who tee off on the attempts to turn this into a broadened focus are frustrated because we all came in during an era – seventies – when Scientology (day in and day out and in practice and in community) was something 180 degrees the opposite of what it has become. We witnessed the take over – albeit while handling our own high pressure jobs we didn’t see it clearly as now when we have combined our observations – and can pretty trace the abuses you all are griping about in present time to directives of DM. Take the Headley case for example. That apparently is a big cause celebre in WWP land. Imprisonment (Hubbard policy was if folk want to leave they do so within 72 hours; DM implemented fences, virtual imprisonment and months upon months of mind bending to get people to stay, and even tracking them around the country and putting infiltrators on them for prediction); Split families and abortion (Hubbard was pro family; DM implemented policies to offload anyone pregnant (and abortions was a result of that; DM split husbands and wives routinely to break up any possibility of alliances and comparison of notes, etc). I could go on and on. But, I think you get the point.

  93. Mostly Lurker,
    The running of 3D engrams is a very important piece of tech that will run them. It’s being applied here on this blog and others. That’s what’s freeing up the wits of the True Group, including you, lurk though you may.

  94. I know you, as we all did, had noble intentions and made huge sacrifices. We’ve ALL done crazy things under stress and moments of blindness. We ALL helped make that big baby called CofS. Our fingerprints are all over it, everyone us.


  95. I love you Lulu

  96. Marty, thanks for continuing this discussion in an open manner. My intention is not to cause frustration. I’m sorry if I have inadvertently done so. I was hoping that by accepting your assertion that the Fair Game policy was cancelled (something I haven’t seen another critic do), I would actually be helping to advance communication and understanding.

    You are very focused on DM’s crimes (legally and against scientology). I am too, in that putting a stop to his current abuse of people has to be the top priority, in my opinion. So, when I read and watched the SP Times interviews, and now in my interactions with anons, I support the focus on DM and am in no way troubled that the older matters aren’t raised.

    My reading of the situation is that many people don’t see the events I referred to, pre-Miscavige, as “ancient history”, but see it as vitally important for the future of scientology that they be addressed.

    I hope we can continue to communicate on the basis that we are both (and others here also) people of good will. When, and if, you want to further this discussion, I shall be happy to do so. Until then, I’ll let it rest.

    Grace to you.

  97. martyrathbun09

    Heather – thanks. I believe we are tracking. I think the point about the ancient history is moot if you look at where reformers are going and what their attitudes are. See my latest post and the one it refers to in the first para. There is no place for any of the past nonsense in the future.

  98. Yes, I can see that that you are clear in your own mind about what is unacceptable for the future (and I’m grateful for that). I suspect that is why you find it frustrating that others need to get the causation issue settled in order to be able to trust that parts of the philosophy of scientology aren’t part of the problem. If you try to understand their perspective, you would have the opportunity potentially to address those concerns.

  99. martyrathbun09

    Whatever. I am not cluttering up this board with criticisms and demands of unnamed people. We are looking forward. Good luck.

  100. I understand what you’re saying Heather. And I understand Hubbard ordered attacks on his enemies. No one is disputing that. We are saying to you that we are (right now) changing the game forever. We’re blowing the whistle, and we’re holding the guilty accountable: David Miscavige (and rightly so). By doing that, we’re sending a message loud and clear that will rattle down through history to every other leader who will ever come forward in Scientology and maybe in some other places.

    The message is, “Criminal behavior is NOT acceptable. We don’t care who said to do it. We don’t care if Hubbard said to do it, we don’t care if your momma said to do it, we don’t care the President of the United States or Jesus Christ or a Golden Pig with Lipstick said to do it: mess with us and we’re pulling your card. We are mankind and we’re not putting up with this shit anymore. So ‘leaders’ everywhere better pull their pants up, start being responsible for their own actions, and quit blaming other people for things THEY do.”

    Yes, past leaders also abused others. We know that. And why did they get away with it? Because no one ever put their foot down and let them know the human race isn’t going to tolerate that any more. New game. Crime is crime and you’re done.

    Future leaders are going to learn quickly don’t go there. Abuse people, they can make something of it. Dave Miscavige says, “Yeah you and what army.” Guess what? We’re showing him what army and you’re part of it, Heather, and we’re glad to have you on board.

    And as for Hubbard ordering attacks on his enemies, not to excuse his actions, and not to minimize them, but you have to realize it was a different world then. Hubbard WAS under attack, personally. The organizations were under attack. In fact, if you just take a step back you will see the world is not a static thing, but it has changed dramatically since 1950.

    Remember just five years before Dianetics and Scientology was born, some 13 million people were marched out of their homes at gun point, loaded into box cars and exterminated; 13 million lives, photos of their kids still on the walls, converted into smoke that swirled up into the sky. Can you imagine troops marching down YOUR street and running you out of your house. “No, no. Just leave that stuff. NOW!” They shoot your dog and cat. Can you imagine that happening? Five years later, LRH wrote Dianetics.

    It was a world at war. Then it became a cold war. In war time, people murdered each other commonly in the name of their “cause.” MURDERED. Then came the cold war, and “murder in the name of your cause” died down to LIE in the name of your cause. People say, “Oh, Hubbard lied about this or that.” Hell, everyone lied about everything in 1950 and that’s hardly an exaggeration. X-rays were good for you, cigarettes, DDT, Thalidomide, diet pills, asbestos, lead paint, lead and mercury in children’s dental fillings. All these things were “Safe!”

    So lie? Hell, everyone did it. The general level of Truth throughout society was very LOW. The US Army experimented on their own soldiers, lining them up in trenches and then set off an atom bomb. “There’s no danger” the soldiers were told. The CIA was conducting mind control experiments on unsuspecting US citizens. Wheee! Psychiatrists were hooking women on diet pills and when they cracked up, electro shock and lobotomies.

    Think I’m exaggerating? My own mother was hooked on diet pills by a friend of my dad who was a shrink. Before she knew it, she was receiving electro shock. That was the real world circa 1960.

    Yes, in that cold war world Hubbard said to attack his enemies. They were real enemies. The cold war was a real war and the battle was raging.

    But here’s the point: that war finally subsided in the early 1990s. Later, we got the Internet and now the whole world is in communication. The world’s gotten better, and better and better. But Scientology is stuck firmly in the past, back in 1965 fighting “enemies”! Why? Because idiot Adolf Miscavige enforces every policy letter with blanket monotone importance.

    Someone with some sense would say, “We’re not doing this! That violates the fundamentals of Scientology not to mention state law!”

    So we get to this crazy land today where Adolf Miscavige is leading his broken down bunch of misfits and wannabes who have all been in Lower Conditions (to Miscavige) since the year 2000. And they’re still stuck in the past, back on the time track, fighting invisible enemies who don’t exist (since the people of the cold war are all dead). And that’s the very definition of suppressive person. Fighting enemies who don’t exist.

    How do we handle that? We take Miscavige and hold him responsible for his actions. That sends one hell of a message. Do you think the next bunch is not going to think twice before they abuse people? They’re going to know the world’s still out here watching. And if they go that route, we’re going to hear about it. And if we hear about it, we’re going to take action just like we’re doing. And then there’s going to be hell to pay.

    That’s why this is a game changer.

  101. Thank you, Thoughtful. It helps to understand where you’re coming from.

  102. No problem. If you decide you want to understand where I’m coming from, you can always ask.

  103. martyrathbun09

    I think I understand it.

  104. Thanks for those words in support of Mike. I knew Mike and Cathy well —- years ago. When I was driven insane by one of his auditors, I knew he was aware (it was about 6 weeks after Lisa Died), but even though I will never be the same (will any of us) The moment I heard Mike was out all my knowledge of him as a GOOD PERSON came back and I have nothing but my good memories back. My book is done and being printed. I’ts my memoir. My point of view from Espionage to CS6 to being insane and then even to this day helping the people that DM is destroying emotionally. Mike IS a good person.
    He was one prior to going into the insane environment of the sociopath and still is, especially now that he is out from under the sociopath’s spell…..
    Book soon to come.
    welcome back Mike
    Nancy Foster Many

  105. I’ll give this idea some thought. In the mean time, our way of bringing justice is simple: whistle blowing, exposure in the media and online, making it safe for others to come forward, eventually forcing in transparency and accountability.

  106. I love you too Lulu!

  107. Chrystal clear communication Thoughtful. It is like DM went into LRH’s valence and dramatizes it like a robot on his own dwindling spiral to oblivion.

  108. I am an OT, and an ex SO from time before DM took over, and I open my eyes in terror of what you, the ELITE of the ELITE, now ex SOs went through. You give me the answers to all the doubts I had.
    Scn in the hands of a TERMINATOR !!
    Scn must be saved for the sake of ALL!!
    I just wandered what the hell is going on here??!! nothing made sense. Donations, buildings, new releases, new books, new editions, new corrections, new OTs, new definitions, new TECH…
    Thankyou Marty, thankyou Mike!! Keep on working together.
    Is nice to see you together.
    LRH tech come back!!!
    APPLY IT!!!

  109. “*the evidence shows that LRH and DM,…”

    Well, THAT saved me some time. I could stop reading as soon as I heard this repetition of the tired old “A = A” disinfo tactic.


  110. Thanks for the blog entry Mr. Rathbun. Been following things since the SP Times article(s)/video(s) and appreciate what’s happening because of it.

    Curious though, do you know if/when Mr. Rinder might come out with a similar expose’? I’m actually glad he didn’t do it concurrently with yours because the longer it can be meted out I think the better.

  111. Marty, you have made a great deal of progress simply by communicating, by using the universal solvent. Mike Rinder has a serious PR problem that he alone can correct using basic two way comm as you are doing with both your supporters and detractors.

    IMO, Rinder needs to communicate about the Bob Minton affair. That was Rinder’s major attack/overt on Free Speech and on the critics. When this movement lost Bob Minton, we lost a warhorse of considerable value. What role did Stacy Brooks play? Did OSA blackmail Minton over the Nigerian money? Did OSA force Minton to pay the settlement to the McPherson Estate out of his own pocket to settle the score? Questions like these need to be answered for many reasons. Further, the answers are of historical value. Mike Rinder is an historical person in CoS just as you are Marty. Your candor has created ARC for you in many circles. Mike is still perceived as ARC-breaky because he remains relatively silent.

    I understand that people need time. I am glad that you and Mike are talking. I was very glad to see Mike talk to the St. Pete Times and speak out against DM. Bottom line for me: What caused Bob Minton to go silent? Will the public ever hear from Bob Minton again?


  112. Concerned Citizen

    You said- Pls people move fast I would like to have my church back now and not in 20 years !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    I hope you understand that you are part of the “people” you are demanding from. That you understand that Mike and Marty and their team know the kind of harassment they can expect from the Church and yet put their neck out to do the right thing. Do you? I think Mike has done a lot just by coming forward, I think has put himself in serious danger and he can and should
    determine how much more he wants to do. no one here can be considered to be obligated to undergo such risk and yet they do. So if you want your Church back, as most of us do, I ask
    What exactly are you doing to get it back?

  113. Ray Randolph

    Huh. Presumably Rinder was responsible for the PI actions against me. I never took any of that stuff personally. I would’ve sat down and had dinner with any of the PI’s or OSA thugs. I always found the psychology behind the actions to be most interesting.

    I tried to contact Mike, but no luck.

  114. Hi Marty, I would like to ask…has Mike Rinder ever lamented the way he treated Robert Young when he was dying of cancer? I was just curious to know if he’s ever spoken about it.
    And you know, seeing his picture at the top of the page, I think thats the first time I have seen him with a genuine happy smile on his face.
    I wish him, and you, all the best.

  115. crashing upwards

    Chris, I cant speak for Mike Rinder on how he feels about how he treated Robert Young, but I feel confident that My Young feels fully vindicated in the high esteem he had held Mike Rinder, and is quite gratified and pleased to see Mike free of the madness and smiling. I am sure that would put a long overdue smile on Mr. Youngs face.

  116. After many months of lurking on these websites, and many more years of COS watching to heal my own cult-related injuries, I feel moved to send extra love and support, to all the Independent Scientologists, but to Mike Rinder in particular. A few years ago, I watched with the rest of you as Mike, clearly under direction from Miscavige, tried to convince the world that all was well in the COS. I could see by the look in his eyes that he didn’t believe the bullshit his mouth was spouting. Even then I could see the fear in his eyes, the doomed look that told me that Mike Rinder was in fear for his life and for that of his loved ones, and only saying the lines his master had given him.

    No one was more pleased to hear that Mike, who had lived in the COS since he was 5 years old, had found the courage to step out of the only world he knew and come forward to address wrongs that needed to be righted. The look in his eyes still shows pain, but now he is on the way to healing himself and others, and so the gleam of hope makes him look so much better (though I must confess that I’ve always thought him a handsome fellow to begin with!).

    I have not ever been a Scientologist (I am a Neo-Pagan/Unitarian Universalist) but I have a hefty respect for people who can leave an abusive situation and still hold onto their faith tradition, even improving it for others.

    Mike Rinder is a hero in my book, and I look forward to his interview with the BBC. Wherever you are today, may the love of Divinity hold you and sustain you. My prayers and thoughts are with you and with all who fight for the truth.


  117. martyrathbun09

    I second that emotion.

  118. Thanks for writing this Marty, As a non SO person, it gives more insight and understanding of Mike and what you’ve all been through. Every personal story is interesting to me and important to tell.

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