Council for Spiritual Integrity

In the mid 1980’s a Class VIII Auditor named Ian Waxler headed a group called The Council for Spiritual Integrity.   He recently sent me an April 1985 newsletter The Free Spirit that the council published.  A copy of it can be accessed at the end of this post.

I highly recommend people giving it a thorough read.   After having done so myself I recognized a couple of important things.

The parallels between what was happening in the field in the mid eighties and now are remarkable. The newsletter reads much like this blog in terms of issues the field was contending with.  Though many doubt it, I had very little exposure to the “Independent” movement of the eighties.   As will be made very clear in my book between 81 and 85 I was thoroughly consumed in dealing with dozens of lawsuits and a number of criminal investigations targeting L Ron Hubbard.   It was not till November of 1984 that I was thrust into the Mayo/Advanced Ability Center lawsuit, in my position as Legal Executive Author Services Inc, as it was perceived that then-RTC honchos had thoroughly screwed it up.  Even then, it was only one of dozens of disrelated lawsuits I remained involved in.  By the time I got into RTC, March 1987, there was little to nothing going on overtly in the Independent field, at least nothing that effected the church very greatly.   I give this brief history to make the point how remarkable I find it that Moving on Up A Little Higher so parallels The Free Spirit.  Uncanny in some respects, like choosing July 4th for an annual Independents’ get-together.

Having been accused of all manner of skullduggery  – there was plenty I was involved in, just not so much in this sector – by folks on the receiving end from the eighties, I batted back a lot of nasty comm I’ve received from that sector for three reasons. First, it was full of false accusations and arguing facts seemed to go nowhere.  Second, and more importantly, it didn’t open the door to any handlings – their presumptive why for the past Independent movement having nothing whatsoever to with anything they did or didn’t do (the why is God).   The comm only reinforced the conclusion I had already drawn about the ebbing of the “squirrels” (from my church perspective) that they had suffered the fate LRH had suggested they would if they did two things : a)  squirreled, and b) denigrated Hubbard and his technology.  Third, I found both “a” and “b” to be rampant within the current Freezone.

However, reading the Waxler CSI newsletter caused me to re-think this historical era.  It has prompted me to conduct a thorough investigation and evaluation of the 1980’s Independent movement for purposes of learning from its strengths and weaknesses.

I am interested in receiving hard facts from the perspective of pioneer Independents on what went right and what went wrong from their points of view.   I do understand the impact of the Mayo/AAC going down.  I was most definitely involved in that.  But, there are certainly other factors.  There must be more useful facts for pure evaluation, that is, what did the Independents do or not do to lose their momentum, cohesion, and effectiveness.

While this process can certainly lead to important connections being made by various sectors of the Independent field, I am quite certain a bunch of comm attempting to “enlighten” me on the virtues of “a” and “b” above is going to be counter-productive. Because of the volume of traffic on my lines on a lot of productive fronts, this is a word of warning that I am not going to devote any time to such origins.  If that is the bulk of what I receive, I’ll understand my initial conclusions – though omitting pluspoints like Waxler produced – were probably right in the first place.

If you have such facts and are willing to share them, please forward me reports at

The Free Spirit newsletter


311 responses to “Council for Spiritual Integrity

  1. The Rear Track Circus really is a flea circus run by fleas. Time to get the insect repellant out. I also thought the “head on a pike” cartoon was excellent.

  2. Excellent Marty.

    The use of multiple viewpoints to supply data on outpoints/pluspoints, and even multiple “data evals” from various viewpoints strikes me as the way to go.

    We only fail in communication where we fail to duplicate the other person’s viewpoint. One needn’t agree with it, but it is wise to be able to view it, and use the outpoints/pluspoints to form a broader and potentially more accurate data evaluation.

    You have likely heard me say that I feel that the ability to evaluate data (and not necessarily in the formal sense) is second only to “Perceive” in the hierarchy of abilities necessary to the resolution of the being’s conquest of the physical universe. Accurate data evaluation is encompassed by the concept of “reason”.

    I am hoping that you get a broad response to your call for data.

    Eric S

  3. Last week I told my husband Mike, if we get out to LA sometime, I’d like to meet this really neat person I met on facebook, Ian Waxler.

    Thanks Marty and Ian!! High interest on this for me. I plan to read it a few times through.

  4. If we only knew back then……….

  5. Talking about Ian Waxler – here is interview with Ian, taken in LA this March.

    The website for Ian Waxler:

  6. Simply Revolting

    and if only we had the internet back then…

  7. Interesting. I found it really interesting that the date is April, 1985, which is the month prior to the “Portland Crusade.”

    It would be good to hear the “post-mortem” of that era. It was a very turbulent time. There were plenty of rumors that Ron was dead and it was being covered up.

    I was on course on the BC at that time, and I can attest to the fact that the tech was very well delivered at ASHO F. I did my OT III at AOLA in 1986, and I can attest to the fact that it was a VERY standard delivery. The church was making products in the ’80s.

    There was a lot to be aggrieved about. The one that affected me greatly was the 5% per month increases that started in November 1976 and continued into the ’80s. There was the abuses of the Finance Police and all that – and there was “De-dinging” too, on the field side.

    There was a fight – good vs. evil, whatever – that I could “feel” at the orgs in the early ’80s. I just remember this incredible holier-than-thou hate vibe coming from the CMO and the SO that was definitely palpable, and almost took me off course. The cartoon of the SO member walking over people with the clock at ten to 2 captures it well, except the cartoon does not at all capture the “look” of distain and superiority that these people had. Imagine that cartoon with Tommy Davis’s face, and you got it.

    That hate vibe prevailed. That’s the vibe I always got from Miscavige.

  8. Tony DePhillips

    Nice post Marty!
    Ian was definetly ahead of his time!!

    This got me thinking about how the cult uses the idea that the word Scientology and other related words are copyrighted. All in an effort to prevent others from “squirreling” the tech but mostly to have a monopoly on the use and control of Scientology.
    The cult wants a two way street for them and a one way street for others. The cult wants the courts to NOT be involved when it is to their disadvantage and they want the courts involved when it IS to their advantage. I have heard one way the cult was stoppong people back in the day was to use this “copyright” law, business law really to get the courts involved in religious matters and I guess it worked. It looks like this may change and probably has changed.
    As an analogy, it would be like Jesus copyrighting the word Christian and the bible and anyone else using it without permission would be a heretic and be burned at the stake. That was in the Dark Ages when that kind of thing went down. Dm is still in the Dark ages and I am sure he would welcome the idea of burning at the stake all “apostates” as this for him would be the greatest good for the greatest number of dynamics. He really likes the LRH reference where LRH says he could make Capt. Blye look like a sunday school teacher when it comes to protecting Scientology.

  9. Tony DePhillips

    I think dm is really a literal case. Interprets things literally.
    This is great movie by the way if you haven’t seen it!

  10. Unbelievable and uncanny the similiarities-How telling that dm forged LRHs name.

  11. unbelievable, as they say history repeats itself. It appears that everytime there is a big change, tech & Int Managemet, there is a big exodus. I guess it’s planned, get rid of the old so the new can be trained on the alter-is’d tech, and on and on it goes. What will we come back to?

    It is obvious, there is no intent to “clear the planet” by the present management which I guess is one person. No way jose. If you wanted to clear the planet, prices would allow this to occur, OT9/10 would be realised as well as Super Power to staff. By the time OT9/10 and Super Power are released, why all you presently at OT8 are gonna be too old to pick up the cans and do anything anyways since your bodies won’t let you anymore. Not to mention many are going broke redoing ot7. What percentage will be able to afford OT9/10 and super duper power?

  12. martyrathbun09

    Tony, you are right. Watch – having gone overboard on asserting what constitutes protected “religious practice” of late Scn Inc will have no leg to stand on to assert the right to mess with anyone’s practice via the courts.

  13. I am always stunned at the complexity surrounding honesty. Why is it so few truly wish to do the things that make one go free? Ultimately it’s not money that buys your Freedom. The graveyards are full of wanna be’s. Time is in short supply to the human condition.

  14. WOW!! I feel like I just experienced a time warp.

    If you hadn’t posted the newsletter, I would have thought you were exaggerating. It really is uncanny how closely the independent movement of the 80s parallels to the one we are currently in. I now understand why some who have been part of the early independence have had the idea that this has been going on a long time, it’s not new, etc. For them, it really wasn’t new.

    I had been off lines from mid ’82 – ’86 when all of this was really going on. It is nice to hear the back story. Just like many in the RCS today cannot CONFRONT, cannot LOOK, cannot OBSERVE, I was in that same place back in the 80s. I “knew about”…but followed the party line, never even thinking about questioning management. So glad we had an opportunity to have this TR3d with the guys who braved the battle inside until it was no longer viable to do so from within.

    In the section, A Change at Flag? he wrote of the improvements in public handling being reported and further wrote, “To what degree these new attitudes reflect basic changes of heart or are merely a temporary means of assuaging public pressure and economic factors will probably not become clear until observed over a period of time.

    Since we have had adequate time to observe, it is abundantly clear that not only were these tactics used to assuage the public, the condition has deteriorated a hundred fold in terms of heavy ethics, low ARC and heavy demand for money. The church has a long history of smoke and mirrors…and little davey was a snake…even then.

  15. Having lived thru all of this crap, and even some earlier; from a Mission/Class IV/V Org viewpoint, it was excruciating.

    While we busted our asses at the lower levels, some goons at the top were making it increasingly difficult to carry on.

    Lies, deception and doing *anything* for ‘greatest good’ became the norm.

    The last thing upper management seemed interested in was the value of the efforts and products of those who pioneered this game – those who worked long and tirelessly to make this planet just a little bit more sane.

    We built bridges into society and the goofs tore them down.

    Very sad indeed.

  16. see 9 minutes into when Ian talks about his com ev and gets declared. I deduce that the new management wanted to get rid of standard tech terminals and replace with “new” standard tech terminals. Same as now with your 3 swing F/N and GAT.

  17. Well that was an interesting time. I was young ! And member of the church. I did percieve all that but there was no internet to have the data, that was the big difference.
    Another factor was that from 1985 the church reformed to some degree. They became friendly again, I think under the influence of Heber. So from 1985 till 1990 there was a boom at Flag. I remember I was a customer and did solo not’s at this time. Ron Norton was the boss, and it was still scientology going on there. And the beast was not so active.
    In the other hand AAC went down, not only because they were suppressed by RTC, but because the reasons Marty said. Actually another “squirrel” did the same eval, Bill Robertson. This is from Technical Briefing Number 1, from 12 october 1984 :

    “Remember what I have told you about policy. It is the 3rd dynamic tech which protects the technology. The AACs have actually stated in writing to me that they do not intend to use Ethics, they do not intend to use Policy. I happen to know that persons, that all people, will not go up the bridge without those things in use.

    If you understand the mechanics of PTSness, when that occurs, it must be handled. It’s Ethics, it’s an Ethics handling. If you don’t have that, it’s a roller-coaster.

    Policy and Tech complement each other. But that is not the most upsetting thing; that was the first one.

    The second upsetting thing was, it is allowed and even promoted by Div 6s and Div 2s – I do not accuse any tech people for this, because I am sure they do the right things with their tech – but the administrative people and publics of those AACs are permitting extreme criticism of LRH and repeating of the enemy’s stories that are appearing in the newspapers and were started by known SPs, such as Nibs Hubbard-deWolfe, who is Ron’s antagonistic son from a former marriage.

    They have thought it OK to keep promoting the words of Flynn, who is dedicated to destroying the church, Ron de Wolfe, who is dedicated to destroying LRH and Scientology, and I have that in writing from Ron de Wolfe himself. In a letter he stated he has been trying to take apart Scientology brick by brick for 30 years, and yet it is OK, it’s allowed to say, “I think, this is right, LRH was into black magic, and he was taking drugs, and he was doing all this, and he ripped off all this money” and they are allowed to say that. They even write that down in their magazines and stuff like this.

    Now I ask you: If this is permitted and they send a person up the bridge, in the future when he goes out and says “I am a Scientologist” (by the way, they also send out letters stating, “We do not say we are Scientologists anymore.” I have a letter saying that from Harvey Haber from the AAC, who is the DIV 6 of David Mayo’s.), when they say that and go out and say, “Well, I’ve had my auditing” to someone they are in communication with for business or a job or just contacts, these people could just turn around and say, “Well, that’s very funny, because 5 years ago you told me this guy who founded all this stuff was crazy, black magic, and he was this and that.” To put it mildly and in the most light way, they are destroying their own future. It is like a man climbing a rope ladder up the side of a cliff and saying, “Man, the guy who built this ladder, he didn’t know what the hell he was doing. The things that holds the ropes are all weak, and it’s going to fall in any minute.” Well, why the hell is he climbing the ladder? Why doesn’t he just stay down there? It is not understandable. ”

    So, the AAC are gone since 25 years. The network of Bill Robertson, Ron’s Org, is still there. There have been a lot of black PR on Bill Robertson, the best is to read his writings and make your own mind.

    But let me remind you that the two “squirrels” David Mayo and Bill Robertson were senior C/S Int and auditor of LRH and the highest ranking sea org officer. Very similar position to Number 2 of RTC, and CO OSA, who are both treated as the worst “squirrels” when they were themselves chasing “squirrels” on the old time!

    History repeat. But it’s a bitter taste, the first independents seemed to have failed. Some survived, made the freezone. But, meanwhile, DM continued his action. Well, now, it’s a second revolution, this one will succeed, history is full of failed attempt followed by success. And the Karma of DM is pretty bad now.

    But the lesson is if you drop LRH well, that’s it… it’s all gone. Actually in the church, if they simply would remove DM, cancel all SP declares, cancel some arbitraries, reduce the prices, do a big ARCX PGM to recover blown customers, well life in the church will be nice again.

  18. This is very interesting to me. I was a staff member at the time of Mayo and his group, and I had to deal with various public coming in when handing in their “resignation”. For me, it was puzzling as I had known many of these people for several years. I did not understand what exactly they were upset about that would warrant such extreme action on their part. I recall them coming in, and acting as if I were the enemy, expecting a fight or something…and so I never had the chance to really sit down with them. They did not seem to really want to talk about it. Of course, it’s hard to say if that would have made a difference or not, but they mostly came in to drop off their letter. And I don’t recall any of their letters containing reference to LRH or the details of off policy that is outlined and done today, with quotes, exact references, KR style etc. They were simple “I resign” letters. For me, the fact that there was minimal mention of LRH, and more mention of David Mayo, made it less …believable…I guess.

    LRH talks about the fact that people want LRH’s brand of Scientology in HCOPL Magic of Good Management, and the more that is emphasized, the more people will listen. That is why Debbie’s email has made an impact…she takes it off herself and her opinion, and focuses on the tech and policy…LRH’s brand.

  19. I have the exact same thought.

  20. fly on the wall

    There is a time and a place for everything. The 80’s still had a church in which LRH was alive and the out-tech was not as widespread. The church still had ethics presence with most and its active membership numbers were very high following the booms of the 70’s. Its a different scene today. I am sure there will be found things the independents back then did and didnt do which kept them from building up. But I think the biggest difference is that todays church has transformed into something other than what so many members had signed on to join. At best, the rose has lost its bloom. And over the last 30 years more and more have fallen victim to it in one way or another. With few new members joining the church and more and more leaving, its only a metter of time. There are 2 challenges. How to organize and promote without control, and how to rekindle the failed purpose. Maybee there are some lessons from the 80’s which will help in those area.

  21. martyrathbun09

    I think your observations are valuable.

  22. martyrathbun09

    Thanks. On this statement “Another factor was that from 1985 the church reformed to some degree. They became friendly again, I think under the influence of Heber”, it was actually under the influence of LRH as a near-future article will reveal.

  23. Great Post Marty!

    It is amazing what went on “outside” in 1985 compared to what went on “inside”. All those repayment demands weren’t known, but at least there was a recognition of the policies covering the subject and eventually given as opposed to having the LRH policies not followed or completely altered today.

    I worked in a totally covert environment directly under Diamond Dave Miscavige and his senior – Pat Broeker in order to conceal the lines from ASI and Int Base to LRH and his properties basically as a gopher/rover providing logistics maintaining facilities and relaying comm as needed. No real identities, clothes, real names or connection to Scn in order to blend into the anonymity of the regular world.

    There was no knowledge of the Mission holder meeting other than the Miscavige version and problems such as the Flynn case. It was just problems on the legal front which never resolved for LRH to get an All Clear which he wanted to get most of all and be back on lines, having removed himself from Feb 80 due to this mess. It is completely amazing how much of a mess was created with him off the lines in 5 years and only filtered information given to him through DM, Pat and Annie. These major situations didn’t seem to be present in ’79-80 when there was a big NOTs and Solo NOTs boom happening internationally as a contrast.

  24. That’s right Tony. The renaming of the “Freezone Association” is actually a red letter day – their use of word “Scientologists” would have been tromped on back in the day.

  25. “The church still had ethics presence with most and its active membership numbers were very high following the booms of the 70′s. Its a different scene today.”


    well in reading that 1982 San Francisco mission holders conferences over there on the Friends of LRH link above, well if you ask me and reading the above newsletter, there was no internet and communications to staff and public were not good I assume back then. But anyways, I compare the two and add in the event of LRH’s death (you can see on the you tube), why I deduce the Int management at the time never applied Non-E, as LRH was gone now. And Int Managment and DM took over in a position of power especially at the 1982 Mission Holder conference. And my guess is many saw the writing on the walls and left, thus the indie movement back then.

    regards the Mission Holder conference 1982, whats the saying the new guy sweeps or cleans house. Whether this was done on purpose or just not applying the conditions is a question. I’m beginning to think it was done on purpose and the purpose of the church changed to making money and not clearing the planet. And the purpose now being making money, all legal now right, and all hidden under the guise of clearing the planet.

    I ain’t the greatest writer, my thoughts and ability to communicate connecting the dots in writing lacks, I hope one can understand what I write.

  26. “But the lesson is if you drop LRH well, that’s it… it’s all gone. Actually in the church, if they simply would remove DM, cancel all SP declares, cancel some arbitraries, reduce the prices, do a big ARCX PGM to recover blown customers, well life in the church will be nice again.”

    I would agree. And if prices were reduce to what a working stiff can afford, and if the stupid IAS regging and Ideal orgs regging and all the other non sense hard sell regging stopped, why business owners could pay their scientology members more and they could get up the bridge and so on. It’s pretty simple.

  27. Thank you so much for making this available. What an eye opener. I have a whole new respect for those earlier independents. It took my breath away to see others writing about the same outpoints occurring 30 years ago. Requires me to up the gradient on my own foolish inability to see what was going on. It also helps me to understand the attitude of people I know who are still in the church and were there through the early ’80s. Many of them commented to me when we left that they had seen “this” all before. Now I better understand what they were referring to. For whatever mistakes the early independents have made along the way, they at least had the insight and guts to see the suppression and call them on it. Our current leverage with the internet and the critical mass of agreement are making a difference in the potential for stopping the suppression.

  28. martyrathbun09

    Actually those repayments were only made because a couple lawyers (Jordan and Eberly if I recall correctly) started filing lawsuits – and Diamond Dave saw the handwriting on the wall. There is truth to Malcolm X’s old adage that the only way to speak to power is with power (it is the only language they understand)

  29. “We built bridges into society and the goofs tore them down.”

    That is why I say there is no intent to clear the planet. It is money now under DM. Hence big celebrities, big business owners,

    The little guy cannot afford the bridge. If you want money, you go after the big guys in the money world.

    Throwing a party for tommie cruise on the freewinds? give me a break.

  30. “WOW!! I feel like I just experienced a time warp.”

    “If you hadn’t posted the newsletter, I would have thought you were exaggerating. It really is uncanny how closely the independent movement of the 80s parallels to the one we are currently in.”

    I’d say it’s roller coaster of the church. Stats up, stats down, stats up, stats down, but is there a long term uptrend?

  31. I knew Ian in Miami and he was always a very upstat individual, ethical, understanding auditor, person and really a nice guy.
    I am happy that you are looking into the past. A lot can be learned from it.
    I will read your article again and consider it. Thanks for writing it.

  32. haydn (T Paine)


    I can certainly attest that from the very early to the mid 80s you had your hands full handling the legal scene and worked on little else.

    I also have another relevant report from the east coast where I am auditing a pc. The person concerned had desired auditing for some time but would have nothing to do with Radical Corporate Scientology and refused to be audited there . In our first meeting I asked why he never took the plunge. His answer was literally one short sentence which contained only the names of two individuals and a blog. Marty Rathbun, Mike Rinder and Moving on up little Higher. He knew no other names and little else as it turns out but he sure knew those two names and is a regular visitor to the blog. The knowledge he got there answered the questions raised by his negative experiences with RCS. And now he IS moving on up a little higher.

    While I applaud and acknowledge the efforts of all those that have gone before, this here movement is the real deal if for no other reason than some of its members happen to have the truth, the whole truth an nothing but the whole damn truth as to what has gone down. The truth will win through — huge strides have been made and only some of the truth ha been told to date.

  33. You could put today’s date on that newsletter and many people wouldn’t even realize it was written 27 years ago. It made me feel sick that such a con has gone on for so long. So many good, caring, honest people were trying so hard to get the tech in and didn’t have a clue about the evil they were up against. So many good people ruined, sick, bankrupt, dead.

    I walked 13 years ago and that was late! As I was reading the newsletter I asked myself how did I not see it sooner? I guess the answer is that it was too unimaginable. LRH wasn’t joking when he talked about the hardest thing to confront…….evil.

  34. “The knowledge he got there answered the questions raised by his negative experiences with RCS. And now he IS moving on up a little higher.”

    Excellent mr pc whoever you are.

  35. True that. Since DM is constantly dramatizing his own case on others, it makes sense that KTL/LOC is basically cancelled. I think I realized another reason as well; DM discovered that LRH had a wrong why for the barriers to training auditors. The problem was not illiteracy, it was lack of drill. So DM cancelled LRH’s handling and leaned on his own. It was right after ’96 that KTL/LOC fell off of TIPs at FLAG, and therefore the world.

  36. Exactly…many people are perceptive to something being wrong, but are not able to put their finger on it, for lack of tech or policy knowledge. Or, they don’t feel it is ok to look or talk about it. This blog, as well as Thoughtful’s site, provide the specifics that actually as-is the right by-passed charge for others, and allow communication and inspection to occur without any repercussion. I don’t think the attention to detail of specifics was addressed so thoroughly as it is now. The internet has helped in that regard.

  37. Martin Gibson

    I recall reading about the 1980’s-ish independent fields OT committee SP declare, with the data of committing assaults and, basically, mutiny on seniors to get them removed, and then assuming power.

    I also cleared up a datum (disrelated here, but helpful to me, and maybe others) from a Tony Ortega post on CST tech vaults and the Creston(?!) Ranch, where LRH was in the 80’s. I had previously read a disparaging account that LRH had gone mad in his old age, and wasted money, like building a HORSE RACING TRACK, that went unused… Well the aerial photos Tony published show a double diamond symbol in the middle of it. The identification symbol LRH chose for finding a “safe house” visible from the sky. It was in the middle of this “horse racing track”. The old man was smart!!! He used the track as a disguise for its actual purpose. I assume he was willing to “look eccentric” to make a huge oval-double-diamond-inlayed addition to the landscape somewhat acceptable.
    My point is that multiple viewpoints, lead to various assumptions and conclusions, and its important to follow these down to TRUTH.

  38. “evil.”

    You better believe it. And when it is hidden, disguised as “good” and wrapped up and contained in a good thing, it is unbelievable, it is not evil then. It becomes unbelievable which means not, not, not believable. People just do not believe it can be true. They do not see the “evil”. How can they believe? If evil presented itself right out, anybody can see it, thus it is hidden.

    Anybody can put themselves in Debbie Cooks shoes, right now. They can say I was tortured, beaten, belittled. And when you are in her shoes, literally, say these things to others, will they believe you, on just your word.

    Do you believe her?

    But think again, what did she say in her email or facebook message? Re read it.

  39. Tony DePhillips

    The justify going after “the big guys in the money world” as they are going after the most “upstat”. I think it is an abomination to consider that the ones that make the most money are the most “upstat”. Some that make a lot of money are the actual scum of the Earth. Miscaviage is scum and that is why he doesn’t give a rats ass. dm is a friggin moron who cannot apply policy correctly. If he could we would not have the ARCX’n field that we have now. What is worse is that he on top of not being able to apply policy is his ENORMOUS SERV FAC where he HAS to be right.
    One day ther will be a tipping point where enough Kool aid drinkers wake up to this fact and he will go bye-bye.

  40. Tony DePhillips

    HI Crusader,
    Another thing is that dm is money motivated and he probably thinks that the KTL/LOC are not good exchange for the cult and on LOC he loses staff that realize what their post in life really is. (Someone else pointed this out on an earlier post)

  41. And I would just like a word of praise to Ian Waxler. I was on the Class 6 internship at AOLA in 1978 and Ian worked with me on a PC I was auditing who was not winning. Ian spent his own time in cramming with me and I finally realized that the PC must be audited at their reality level (i.e. the processes run must be real to the PC and something the PC can do). With a new appropriate C/Sed program the PC started winning and I directly attribute that to the help Ian gave me.
    So a very belated thank-you to Ian, who was truly dedicated to keeping the tech standard!

    Tom Price

  42. Pat, well stated.

  43. Yes, that caught my eye, too (page 3 of the newsletter, rightmost column, toward the bottom — determined with near certainty that LRH’s signature on RTC document was forged, and appeared to be akin to DM’s handwriting).

    Beyond that, in reading the newsletter, my reaction was: the more things change, the more they stay the same.

  44. Pre 80s experience that I’d love someone here to explain. This experience was what had me become Independent for a while.

    I joined Scientology in 1971(I was 17) at the Geltman Mission in NYC.
    Shortly after I joined the Sea Org at FOLOEUS for about a year.
    1) I was phsically abused violently by Al Bornstein for not obeying his order after his wife, the CO, ordered me to do something else.

    2) When I moved to California in 1976 I met a girl who was in constant physical pain from being hit by a car as a pedestrian right outside the Hotel Martinique in NY.
    Here is her story:
    This women was very talented psychically. Her accuracy and repeated predections would be revealed in news print or TV news weeks after she told me. She was amazing. But this is what happened to her.

    She was on staff at the New York Org around the time I was in the Sea Org. But we never met. While getting audited she originated something that only she could have done. She said,”Mary Sue and other executives are doing something they should not, something illegal”. A few days after originating that she was struct down by a car right outside the org. Later in LA the FBI raided the orgs.
    Years later her brother in law was going to audit her and found that her folders went to the B1 bureau for CSing at that exact time. Her brother in law told me that the CSing from B1 was like black dianetics.

    Please put Miscavige in that scenario.

    3) My x wife Likki from the Incredible String Band once should me a letter from a Flag Mission stating that 60% of the UK staff has gotten into scientology through the Incredible String Band.

    After the band broke up she became depressed. She moved to LA and we met. She was having really bad problems and no money for auditing. I felt the ASHO should help her so I went to ASHO and demanded help. They gave her two weeks of auditing, but first I had to sign something that said,”if she kills herself Scientology is not responsible”. After that auditing I found her curled up under the bathroom sink with blood shot eyes crying that she created OT3.

    As a celebrity who once graced the largest stages in the world, now became bad PR.

    She became a street person.

    There is a culture of violence that preceeds Miscavige. When that is confronted, when sacred cows loose their glow, then there will be a real revolution. The hard task of seeing through ones cherished anchor points will reap some real truth.

    I have my answers, please, you guys explain these things to me with Miscavige as the source.

  45. The same old LDW

    I’m on a bit of a crusade here, Captain Bob.
    As Marty pointed out some time back, OT 9 and 10 are a myth. Whatever LRH notes and advices are available, would certainly be morphed into more implanting by miscavige. Same goes for Super Power.

    HOWEVER The L’s are being effectively delivered in the independent field. They are wonderful, on-souce and liberating rundowns.
    Also available are the original OT levels IV, V, VI and VII. After having completed L 12, I’m on the original OT IV now, and in my personal opinion this is the most powerful thing I’ve ever done in Scientology.

    It all boils down to full grade EPs, full NED completion and then the power-clearing course line up, or onto OT I if clear on NED, then OT 1-III, then the NOTs band, then the original OT levels.
    Then, once we’re all class VIII or XII auditors, we can mess eachother up with whatever dumb ass experimental stuff we dream up from the PDC tapes:)

    There is soooooooo much here already and so much case gain to be gotten from what’s already released. Just do it, do it thoroughly and do it all.

    IMHO, every single bit of it works wonders if done standardly.


  46. This is spot on. I’ve spent a lot of time wondering what made people buy in to the Golden Age of Tech when we can all see now that it is so clearly squirrel. I had already left staff by then but I can only assume that if I had been around, I would have been suckered in too. Hell I thought what we were doing in the early 90s was standard tech for sure but now I don’t really know.

    But I do think I know why everyone bought in to GAT. It’s because the Situation outlined in COB’s eval was spot on. After years and years of events proclaiming never-before-seen levels of expansion, Dave finally confronted the audience and told them what they already knew, what we all have always known: that auditors are not being made in significant numbers, those that do get trained do not audit, and we have no chance to clear the planet in a trillion years at the current rate. I think everyone blew a bunch of charge on that because they finally had an event where they weren’t just getting smoke blown up their asses for a change. So at that point they, all of us, would have accepted just about any Why because it seemed that Int management was finally owning up to its shortcomings.

    But of course “the blind leading the blind” was totally the wrong Why. The real Why is prices are so damn high almost nobody can afford it, and the staff are so poorly treated and so poorly compensated that the best Scientologists stay far, far away so the orgs are all a mess. And that is just for starters.

    The funny thing is, this newsletter already says all that a full decade before GAT.

  47. one of those who see

    “However, reading the Waxler CSI newsletter caused me to re-think this historical era. It has prompted me to conduct a thorough investigation and evaluation of the 1980’s Independent movement for purposes of learning from its strengths and weaknesses.”
    I agree with your decision here, Marty. I have read many of the reconnection newsletters which can be found on Ralph Hilton’s site. I’ve also read 2 of the AAC Journals and listened to Mayo’s talks. I was new in the early 80’s and as a brand new person found myself in the middle of the Finance Police/Mission Holder scene going on. I understood little at the time. So i have been very interested in learning about that period.
    Agree, there are definite parallels. But, maybe not surprising. Good, OT Beings trying to stay on the Road to Truth – then and now.

    I think it is important to see what worked back then and what did not.

  48. There is no intention to ‘Clear the Planet.’
    Free Beings? “Rational, in that he forms the best possible solution he can on the data he has and from his viewpoint”?
    DM would throw a fit!
    Staff, IAS Members, OSA and DM’s crooked inner circle of MEST Beings know that that would undo them, and their little racket.
    A Clear Planet is the last thing they need!
    Whatever next?!!!

    Being there and communicating, outside of DMs control?
    No way, José!

    Richard Kaminski

  49. Honing in on the 3D engram. This time through, more pops up. Soon, the TA will crash down, the needle will loosen and go into an FN. It’ll widen. The pc, still looking in gets the rest, begins to extrovert, he’s coming up to Tone 4, he goes “so THAT’S why…” and the needle is broadly FNing, he’s Very Good Indicators and the auditor eases out of the session and the preclear is on his way to Clear.

    You gotta love this stuff. You just gotta love it.

    Yo, Ian, nice to meet you the other day 🙂

  50. It will be very interesting to see what the outcome of your eval.

    One very significant difference between the 80 exudes and today is the comm lines. We have international comm lines in the form of the internet which was absent then. The ability to know today is avaialble wheras 30 year ago it was personal comm lines but mostly rumor line. This is where DM is still incredibly ignorant. No one individual knew what was going on “over there” they may know a little something about what happened “here” but the big picture was significanlty more difficult to get.

    I had a good frined that was a mission holder and even he had only sporadic data on the conference, He was concerned and knew something was wrong but had inadequate data to eval it. Today the only reason someone doesn’t know is because they don’t want to know or don’t vest their time in finding out. The data is all there today.

    I beleive if the internet existed in the 80 as it does today, DM’s finance police and mission Holders Conference would have very different outcomes.

  51. Bela, I see your point about not quoting LRH and giving references.
    But why should you have to justify yourself to an SP?
    As I recall, from around ’81 onwards, it was a complete and total waste of time talking to org staff about anything. I rejoined staff myself at that time, and the culture was one of total paranoia. I wasn’t allowed to know what it was about, it was ‘Confidential.’. 6 months later, they kicked me out, no RF, no nothing, just, ‘Get out!’ There may well be an OSA operative reading this right now that knows exactly what this was is all about. But it’s non of my business, it’s ‘Confidential.’
    So why should I justify myself? They won’t – it’s ‘Confidential.’

    Just who the heck do they think they are, that they need an explanation?

    Richard Kaminski

  52. Marty said:-
    ” The comm only reinforced the conclusion I had already drawn about the ebbing of the “squirrels” (from my church perspective) that they had suffered the fate LRH had suggested they would if they did two things : a) squirreled, and b) denigrated Hubbard and his technology. Third, I found both “a” and “b” to be rampant within the current Freezone.”

    When we met I commented that our philosophy majored on redemption.
    You have been redeeming yourself big time. However I take issue with your negative comments on the Freezone. As I commented on an earlier post the Freezone is composed of people who left CO$ between the great schism around 1982
    and the advent of your blog. They include:-

    Les and Anita Warren
    Frank and Mary Freeman
    Pat and Ray Krenik
    Trey Lotz
    Ken Uruhart
    Candy Swanson
    Phil Spickler
    Chris Black
    Roy Selby
    Even Jim Logan! And many others. And I’ve met most of them.

    Please detail the squirreling and the denigration of LRH. And if better privately thats OK and I’m OK with public. Yeah tricky.

    Squirrelling is a scn swear word. You castigate the FZ you castigate those I mentioned among others.

    We should have unity not division.
    And people who are willing to be corrected.


  53. Great posting, Marty, thanks. Reminds me of the ‘Reconnection’ days.
    Also reminded me of the great Eric Hoffer. POW! A blast from the past. Well worth reading anything by him.

    So, how long has DM left? Hmmm, not so long…

    Richard Kaminski

  54. Hi Marty, I think it is really important that you brought up this subject. 30 years later, we are here at this intersection again with many similar circumstances and many different ones as well. I think that the 3D engram back in 82 was much more severe and quite different than it is currently. Definitely the internet is a huge factor today. There are so many more heavy legal crimes that are being committed currently by Int Mgmt and these crimes are being passed down upon ALL staff to commit upon their public at all orgs and missions worldwide. There is also much more media attention worldwide. Back then the media didn’t really care that much about this “off-the-wall” religion.
    One wonders how long it can continue really. The cracks in the walls and foundations are getting bigger and deeper. It’s only a matter of time before the whole damn thing comes down. My gut feeling is that it is going to be by the end of this year, 2012, year of the dragon and the whole Mayan calendar apocalypse thing. Whatever. I think that Ian Waxler is right though. It’s hard to predict the fall of dictators but witnessing the winds of change in the Arab spring and how the internet had so much to do with it, makes me wonder really and makes me hopeful again.
    Here is to all that you, Mike, Deb and so many others are doing to bring this about. It’s about time the evil empire crashes and burns. And from the ashes a new Phoenix will rise, one that will pick up the pieces and put Scientology back on its original course to clear the people of Earth. Can’t wait till that conference gets held. Meanwhile it’s good that the independent field is coming together again with so many highly trained tech and admin all-stars. Definitely makes leaving the church the right decision.

  55. But if I had seen any of this back then I would have not-ised it. I was still operating under the effects of the Frontal Ro-BOT-omy.

  56. I had the pleasure of meeting Ian Waxler at a Starbucks last month in Glendale, CA, Ian and I go back on the time track when he was a non-SO CCINT staff member- posted as a C/S.

    If you read my post on March 13th, I was the CO CTO WUS in the 80’s and as an auditor for CLOWUS and CMO PAC I desperately needed a C/S to Case Supervise my session’s. Ian Waxler agreed to do so.

    I also committed an overt on Ian Waxler and due to pressure from the INT FINANCE POLICE in 1982 I did a rollback that I think wiped him out.

  57. Bela, the lack of explanation, the missing R, was what I observed as well.
    Back then, I received the AAC magazine a few times. Since being on staff I didn’t really read it but passed it on to OSA. It didn’t rely the message that the CofS is altering the tech. The targer seemed to be the prices and message that stuck to me was something like “We do it cheaper”.
    Later, when I was in Flag, I met Myriam Lahlou (later Stave) again (I knew her since 72/73) and she asked me to conspire with her to help some former friend who was doing OT-Levels in the AAC. She being a Class XII in FSO could not contact him directly. (She felt he would not do well there and offered him personal help.) I met him. He thanked me, however, did not want to go in contact with her. It was quite secretive. He did not want to talk about what he was doing or why.
    From today, I would say that they disconnected in a to generalized way. That ended their Power. There was a disconnection from their friends inside the CofS, not just from out-tech or misapplications. There was missing Reality and missing gradients of Reality. And after that they didn’t have a comm line anymore to relay some reality. And so there was an out-reality vacuum that could be filled by others.

  58. Globetrotter

    There is one point I am not sure about. The church’s purpose changed to making money? That doesn’t make sense to me. I think we see outpoints but I am for one not sure if we understand the real why yet. As evil as DM is, I don’t think his purpose is “to make money”. There must be more to the story. He must have a reason for doing all this madness that he at least must believe in (every criminal thinks that he is a good person and he is actually “helping” people). I don’t recall the exact issue, but there is one in the Data Series that says that an evaluation that only has a “who” as its why is incomplete.

  59. PersonalJudas

    I’m sure there are a number of reasons why the ‘original’ Independent movement(s) has faltered and fractured but I would hazard a guess that the most significant one is the one touched on by Haydn and Bela, above.

    The Internet – or lack thereof.

    The gradient scale of confronting, required in order to truly handle one’s doubts is made possible by the multi-viewpointed environment of the web. Without it, one is left to float in a sea of opinion and rumour.
    If I think of my own ‘decompression’ (+/- 3 years) and the rollercoaster swing through positive and negative revelations gained by really looking; I cannot see how someone in those earlier times could navigate through this morass at all. Without this blog, Steve’s site, Friends of LRH and many others I do not think I would have reached the level of differentiation that I have now. I believe I would still be angry, confused and stuck in the deadly misidentification of the church with the subject.

    The personal dillemas and internal conflicts are made harder by, what is quite obviously, a wholesale dedication to the control and limitation of information by and within the church. This fact alone, should tell a careful observer that true Scientology has been subverted in the CoS.
    I do not think Scientology is dead within the church. I think it’s worse than that. If it was dead, perhaps we could acknowledge, mourn and move on but this control of communication on all levels has hostaged Scientology so that parishioners, mostly unaware, are constantly bargaining for its release. Sadly, the bargaining chip seems to be one’s integrity.

    One could be forgiven for thinking in terms of Wholetrack SP’s as the operating basis of power mongers down through time, changes little – propaganda, censorship, black PR, ‘divide and rule’ and eventually outright violent suppression.

    Didn’t Robert Vaughn Young say that the internet was Scientology’s? Vietnam?

  60. I’ve never meet Ian Waxler but I watched his entire interview here and appreciate the fact that he promotes doing Scientology standardly just like LRH wrote it. Ian Waxler comes across here as a great C/S and tech terminal. This is a terrific interview.

  61. This newsletter has some info on Germany. As I had been in munich org at this time want to add some information first:
    a) „Church was fined and staff and former staff can file to bring their back pay up to minimum wage…“ No one did tell us staff about that.
    b) „100 police investigated…(Munich Org) Much less police had been present.
    c) „It has reported that the Munich Org has crashed from nearly 200 staff members to about 20..“
    Not true at all. Munich Org crashed from around 200 to 110 or so. Active Public crashed from around 2000 to around 800.
    Next: This newsletter section on Germany talks Scientology to be closed December 1984. Police raid had been after that. And a legal trick prevented closing. I can be corrected on that but as far as I can remember the police raid had been earlier than December 84.
    I have not hard facts about the following. My opinion has been at that time and still is that some of the so called independent movement is a setup that did not accidentially happen. Part of the strategy had been to get rid of as many staff and publics as possible in order to weaken us. Then create an outside movement that those that cannot let go of Scientology can go to. Those outside movements can one by one very easily destroyed at a later time. Then close Scientology in Germany. After that next country aso.
    This has been the master plan. This plan evidently changed late 84. Early 85 inside Scientology the strategy also changed. No more heavy ethics as it had been „found out“ ethics had been applied to hard. Thus continuing with the left over publics and staff. Thus as the inside strategy and the outside strategy changed together I consider it not by accident but by order.
    But what had been done openly by outside forces is not of any real importance for me. In order to clean that area one has to look a bit deeper into the situation. I have observed the following especially in late 83 in the org: heavy ridges turned on. One could see them almost with the eyes. Lots of „crazyness“. Heavy body troubles due to over restimulation. I came to the conclusion at that time that „upper level“ material had been used intentionally to cave us in. (This could be easily verified by checking that on the meter. Usually those that had been there at this time have a blank on some situations relating to group.) For me it would be more important to check into those things than to investigate the independent movement of that time. As those „case factors“ are blocking the progress on the bridge. Even for those that had no physical universe body contact to the time 82 to 84.

  62. Ian is a beautiful s.o.b.!

  63. Independent Person

    Thank you for acknowledging the “deja vu”, Marty, that will go a long way to blowing charge for the old timers and early Independents out since the great exodus in the early ’80’s (post Mission Holder’s conference, Finance Police, etc) – at least, among those old timers of good will, that is, who are the ones that count.

    My very quick and simple guide to the categories found within the FreeZone:

    1) Those who continued to practice standard Hubbard Scientology, such as Michael Moore, the Krenicks, and others, despite harassment from the Church of Sado-Masochism;

    2) Those who continued to practice standard Hubbard Scientology, but with additions, (for example, added levels, or added processes, such as the Ron’s Orgs, Captain Bill Robertson’s followers, and others not related to the Ron’s Orgs;

    3) a) Those who wanted to practice Hubbard Scientology, but were deterred from it by either the threat of, or actual harassment by the Church of Sado-Masochism, so developed tech of their own, based on fundamental concept of “Clearing” (they also referred to themselves as “Clearing practitioners” in order to avoid hassles from the Church of S&M);

    3) b) Those who felt Hubbard’s Scientology could be improved upon and so developed tech based on the concept of Clearing, but taking it to further levels;

    (Examples of 3a and 3 b include, but are not limited to: Knowledegism (Alan Walter), Dynamism (Enid Vien), ASC Missions Group (Allen Hacker), Idenics,. Some added other processes such as Neuro-Linguistic programming, or shamanic techniques – these include Flemming Funch’s Transformational Processing, Max Sandor’s Skyworks, and so on.

    4) Then there are those who claim to practice standard Hubbard Scientology, but do not – I suppose that would fit the true definition of Squirrel (much as I hate that term).

    In the end, the best guide is: “by their fruits you will know them.” Are they pleasant people, with happy clients, or do they spend a lot of time fighting with others – their clients, fellow practitioners, and so on? (Some Free Zone dog fights have been legendary, and noisy – spectacular to observe, and invariably based on monumental Egos), but many others have quietly gotten on with their practices, doing very well, and are basically good, decent people.

  64. “they at least had the insight and guts to see the suppression and call them on it.”

    Exactly right Yvonne. They are all heroes in my book.

  65. +1

    Some one saw fit to put a TWTH through my letterbox the other day. It was interesting looking it over in these after-the-cult times. From section 7 Seek to Live with the Truth:

    “Many want you to believe things that suit their own ends…No one has the right to force data on you and command you to believe it or else…There is nothing unhappier than one who tries to live in a chaos of lies”.

  66. When I left the church in 2010 I was already well aware of why actually much of my friends left in the early 80’s. But it was not thanks them, unfortunately, it was through my on search on the Internet. Internet makes a big difference :speed and quantity of comm and information, at a new stellar level.

    I like the theta Ian Waxler and his Free Spirit newsletter. What appealed me the most is the quote from Eric Hoffer’s book The True Believer: fanaticism, HolierThanYou attitudes are quite dangerous. It’s certainly a fast way to go down the CDIE scale, for Indies as well as Churchies.

    Thanks Marty for your integrity. Petty ARC breaks and lack of application of standard ethics and admin could well be the cause of the difficulties encountered by the 80’s Indies. And we have certainly a lot learn from that


  67. Very good observation, Bela, especially “provide the specifics that actually as-is the right by-passed charge for others, and allow communication and inspection to occur with any repercussion.” This is definitely what happened with me; layers and layers of extreme bypassed charge came off, when I saw that what had happened to me was experienced by many others, although each has his own unique story. Getting the background on why so many strange things had occurred cleared the air for me. It led me back to the recovery of a sane, productive life, free of the constant introspection of “What did I do to pull this in?” Then the ability to talk about it, on line on this blog, and even be acknowledged and validated for my own observations has cleared the third dynamic engram for me to the extent that I became free, at last, to build a happy, productive life, which is still an on-going process!

    Reading your comment made me realize how much my life has changed as a result of this blog, and makes me appreciate it one more time, in a new unit of time. Another proof that auditing works! Thank you, Marty, for this wonderful and very unique third dynamic continuous third dynamic auditing session! We all help and audit each other!

  68. Tatiana, Fantastic interview! I plan to check out the other interviews. Thanks!

  69. Interesting. Good to see that you are willing to rethink your position on the 1980′s exodus, Marty. I was not a part of it as I was too green to have much of an opinion when it was going on although I did see many trusted tech terminals leave.


  70. Marty,
    thanks a lot for making available this very interesting Free Spirit newsletter from 1985.
    It looks like that we are not the first ones finding outpoints in the DM church.
    And it also looks like that it is rather hard to correct them if even possible.

  71. I know my last post is not totally in line with your request Marty. But the environment that causes a person to leave the “church” are manifold. Somehow, someway, there was a part of the culture that allowed for Miscavige to take over. Too many black ops, too many enemies, saving the “only way to mankinds salvation”, all other teachers are “inverted 8th dynamic”, us vs. them mentality, fair game, Simon Bolivar, kids in chain lockers, blow against the enemy, TR L ( a training routine from B1 called TR lie which I saw the bulliten) B1 bureau Csing to drive people insane, etc etc etc.
    I learned owe alot to Ron. I have made my peace with him. I’ll probably run in to him again. But I have no perfectionistic construct in my mind that shield him from some of the realities that have been perpetuated on us all. No, he was not a Miscavige. But the idea of filling your pockets full of cash to pay assassins is not a thought that I have ever considered on the path to spiritual freedom.

    I guess my previous question was rhetorical. I needed to get this off my chest.

  72. martyrathbun09

    I guess my response to this is: If your shortcomings were culled and evaluated against your accomplishments how would you feel about someone scoring them as you apparently have as to L Ron Hubbard and persistently posted them across the internet?

  73. moneca ryane

    Hew, talk about a walk down memory lane! I was there ….. Why did the early independent field fail. One of the early defectors, since they had a field practice was Lloyd and Thea Greenberg. Thea was tough and outspoken, she held the 4th of July celebrations at her home in Altadena, CA for years. It was very difficult to deliver back then copyright fear was the big issue. The field, those who became indie had no cohesive way to stay connected. Thea did her best with evening pot lucks, Sunday soirees etc. The general consensus was we had Lost our bridge, where do we go from here. It seems everyone started to look outside of SCIO for answers. This resulted in ‘other practices being explored and speakers/demos at The A’s showing up. Psychic readers, channelers, Yogi’s, etc. Thea was hounded by the church with guys showing up at her doorstep. She felt so threatened she started to invent her own processes, using dowsing etc. I know beacause I tried some. :-). The field was scattered, there was no internet, hard to find course packs or rundown lists. Ellen Jones Cs’d for the field, Mark her husband put out the Free Spirit. It held whatever field was out there together. Eventually with no cohesive connection, the shock of David Mayo closing shop, it was like the field went into apathy, spreading to the four winds. Avatar was started at this time.

    So after that, what I see as differenet – is the internet, we have a vehicle by which to stay connected. We can become one voice. Various materials are now available freely. Time and the strength of a group which empower people to step up without fear I think is key. I personally do not see the field dissapating again, there is to strong of a momentum, thanks to Marty and others, its all about the community lines.

    Hope this is helpful in someway to fill in the gaps. P.s. plus excuse typos on my tablet.

  74. martyrathbun09

    Thanks for this rundown.

  75. moneca ryane

    P.S. people were in shock, the loss and engram of the rough handling on COS lines stuck people in fear and apathy leading to no action and confusion. It was a very strange time, very manic.

  76. martyrathbun09

    Interesting. But, the internet is merely a communication channel and cuts both ways.

  77. martyrathbun09

    The motivations of Miscavige are very deeply covered in the archives of this blog.

  78. martyrathbun09

    You doth protesteth to often and loudly.

  79. martyrathbun09

    Wonderful tool. But the internet is available to the monster too. It is a wonderful tool, but only a tool.

  80. martyrathbun09

    It is always great to hear from the irrepressible Les.

  81. Martin Gibson

    Sorry, to explain clearly, the 1980’s-ish SP declare was on David Miscavige, and it laid out the same behaviour that is being witnessed in present time.

    Secondly the “horse track” was just a way to disguise the symbol being buit into the landscape. Check on it if you like.

    Thirdly, and more important, we are not the first, but we have the technology to draw together intentions, and potential actions.

    Did I do enough?

  82. martyrathbun09

    Thanks for sharing that; character.

  83. martyrathbun09

    Thanks – pluspoints play a role in evaluation.

  84. What is Greatness

    “There are only two mistakes one can make along the road to truth: not going all the way and not starting it.” BUDDHA

    No question, LRH contributed a lot to mapping out that road. But did he really follow it all the way in his own lifetime or did he get lost himself?

    I am asking because the events described in this entry are from the early 80s when Hubbard was still alive and, no doubt, the seeds and roots for those events to even come to fruition were planted a lot earlier than the 80s.

    In my humble opinion, those who walk the talk will be listen to. Those who demonstrate compassion and tolerance for all beings, truly lifting others up by their own example of living, will be followed.

    That is why Lao Tzu is still being listened to and his teachings are followed. That is why the Dalai Lama inspires wherever he goes and draws big crowds.

    And soit goes that those who actually PRACTICE, in their daily life, the axiomatic truth LRH summed up in his essay “What is Greatness”, will be listened to and followed. Here LRH stated the essence of what Scientology has to be in practice for it to survive and what Scientologists have to demonstrate through their actions for them to be followed.

    It’s universal; it is fundamental.
    It goes for LRH; it goes for all of us.

  85. Martin Gibson

    YES!!! Gradient increases in Reality.
    Gradient increases in trust, and auditors traust.
    Be EFFECTIVE, and THAT is dealing with where the PC IS!!!
    If its not real, make it real. If it still isn’t real find WHAT IS!!!

    My morale as an auditor and FSM has come SOLELY from that datum.

  86. Martin Gibson

    peace… calm…
    I read and understood what you said. I hope it doesn’t still hurt and cause confusion.
    Having made peace will you help create a better environment to learn (as you have) and make anothers life more fulfilling with the acid tested technology to improve ones (ones: me, you and any others) condition.
    I know he was just a man, fallible and sometimes wrong. But he could be right and often was.
    I love LRH.
    My old man smacked my ass a few times for specious reasons when I was young. He worked hard every day to put a roof over my head and food on my plate. I made my peace too.

    If you haven’t been able to move forward, flick me an email I hope you do regardless.

    The future is going to be good. I hope it starts for everyone now, or at least sooner rather than later.

  87. Thrilling subject. Relevant questions to look into:
    What were the administrative aspects of the early 80s Indies?
    Has there been a unifying concept or postulate, on which a group activity could be based on?
    Has the tech of OrgBoards been used? (In single groups or maybe even in general.)
    What was produced? What was the production level?
    What Divs functions were in / weren’t in?

  88. Martin Gibson

    Are you saying DM’s F/N mind grenade changes are equatable to LRH’s mistakes?

    You ARE saying that. And you ARE saying LRH tried to stop the tech being known and used to help others.

    VENOM: Your viewpoint is currently a waste of an occupiable position in space and if your prescence may conflict with any others you have no right to use it and should give it up if any being wishes to ACTUALLY USE IT TO LOOK, ANALYSE, SPECULATE OR EVALUATE.
    The dripping condescension exhibited shows an unwillingness to assume anothers viewpoint and renders anything uttered in disparagement or derision COMPLETELY unreliable as to accurateness.

    My god.

    “It is better to keep your mouth shut and be thought of as an idiot, than open it and PROVE the fact”.

    Finally, forgive me if mistaken.
    “FIND OUT WHERE YOU ARE”. Locational, COMPARE, Locational, ORDER VS DISODER, Locational.

    An undercut to that is “ASSUME A VIEWPOINT” (One cant even be confused with out a viewpoint).

    Oh and if I am wrong, I take all that back, and apologise. I can be wrong.

  89. I was inside the Church of Scientology when the early/mid 1980s Independence movement was underway. However, I wasn’t close enough to it to observe what went wrong there—other than what I’ve read online.

    However, I will offer some observations about what makes organizations and movements successful.

    I think that for an organization or movement to be successful, it must have brilliant leaders with the ability to create games that people with many differing motivations and goals will find engaging to play.

    Such leaders are rare. What do they do that helps organizations and movements thrive? What do they do that keeps them moving forward, not stalling or shrinking?

    An executive in my industry whom I admire greatly and whose results are impressive – much better than others in the industry – says: “Success is about timing and degrees.” By that, he means it’s about knowing when to push really hard (and when to ease up) on the throttle of each function that contributes to success. He applies this timing / degrees concept at the organizational level and at the individual level.

    His means that most organizations and leaders understand quite well the factors that produce good results and “success.” Those include: set achievable goals, do things that work, measure and report and reward things that matter, reward people with what they care about most (e.g., medals, money, more responsibility, their own game), recruit good talent, offload timewasters and troublemakers, provide good training, work hard, be ethical, treat your team members well, play the game outside your organization (don’t fight with your own team members), innovate and reward innovation, have fun, keep things light, celebrate, etc. It’s not rocket science that these things work well to create successful organizations.

    However, knowing WHEN and HOW MUCH to push on each of these factors to build an organization with the solid success it needs to weather unexpected blows and storms is the genius of leadership. This calculus of timing and degrees is one that develops with GREAT experience, MANY observations, CAREFUL analysis, COURAGEOUS experimentation and STRINGENT self-honesty.

    It’s no accident that this leader I admire is also a brilliant consensus builder. He is skilled at and puts much effort into keeping thousands of people (who understandably have differing motivations and personal goals) informed and engaged in playing a common game. He is a very astute listener and proportionately listens much, much more than he talks.

    He certainly keeps his eye on the horizon and on his competitors and their plans and strengths / weaknesses / opportunities / threats. But he puts much more effort into making sure his own firm gets great products, reinforces its own strengths, and repairs its own weaknesses.

    Finally, it seems clear that attack, attack, attack is an unsuccessful way to operate any organization or movement on a permanent basis. Attacking may be required during some phases and certainly in wartime. But attacking as a way of life does not make an organization stable or sustain it or support its growth.

    Corollaries: Stability and growth do not occur during wartime. That happens only in peacetime. If there will be no peace, there will be no growth.


  90. Moneca, I think you have made some good points. Repeating some of what you have said and hopefully adding something useful to it, here is what I see re: the disintegration of the independent movement of the 80’s, and comparing that to now:
    1) Mayo AAC was visibly the spearhead of that movement, and in about 3 years he was nullified and shut down, which definitely took the steam out of a large chunk of the movement, plus had the chilling effect of the (then very real) threat of intellectual property actions by RTC/CSI/NEP against the independents.
    By contrast, this current movement is spearheaded by Marty and Mike and any attempts to take them down have failed miserably. There is also a different motive today behind that RTC/OSA actions. It is not to “handle squirrels” or “save standard tech” – it is to protect David MIscavige and his criminal enterprise and, indeed, his own mega-squirrelling.
    Even more indicative of this difference in motive behind the Church actions is the Debbie Cook case, which is an attack on someone for calling out David Miscavige on his squirrelling and criminality.
    2) The theft of the NOTS materials from AOSHEU by Scott/Lawley et al, which whereas it made these materials available to independents, also opened up additional legal attacks from the Church, plus added a taint to the movement. It made it very easy to position many in the movement with theft (not only the participants, but those that later received copies of the stolen materials).
    By contract current independents are not tainted by a theft of materials.
    3) The successful trademark case against Larry West and his reform Church of Scientology, had a chilling effect on independents calling what they were doing Scientology. Once people cast themselves adrift from the actual subject by name, it was easy for them to also drift off into non-standard and other practices, which weakened the movement.
    By contrast, the RTC’/Church, to date (almost three years) is not wielding intellectual property law in response to the movement, and really hasn’t been using intellectual property law against independent practitioners for many years, for fear of adverse rulings, etc.
    4) As you said, many of the 1980’s independents drifted off into non-standard and other practices, severely diluting the movement and taking it off course.
    That is not happening now.
    5) In the 1980’s, the Church actually did finally take some actions to ameliorate the situation. There were many missions sent out in which the missionaires genuinely did try to help people who had valid grievances. This at least contributed to stemming the tide of defections.
    After a lot of resistance the Church finally did start giving refunds.
    Comparing to now, Church missions have been solely to attack Mike and Marty, not to give assistance to people with grievances. Also it has totally gone off policy in its handlng of grievances. And it still continues its current squirrel and abusive conduct, so is continuing to create a stream of people who defect out of self-defense.

  91. Interesting, those roll backs were an effective way of keeping peoples mouths shut and keeping them from looking, afraid to say anything close to an enemy line, otherwise the strong arm of ethics would move in. In the blink of an eye you could be labeled “Disaffected”, so it was just more survival to go along. Wasn’t it ’82 or so when the Int Fin police came in to FOLOWus and were sitting down RBing everyone?

  92. TRZEROINLIFE aka alex castillo


  93. martyrathbun09

    This is a lot of accurate information in my view. I hope to plumb the minds of those on the receiving end of it though because that will open the door to a very bright future.

  94. You are so right. As was OEC/FEBC above:

    “The real Why is prices are so damn high almost nobody can afford it, and the staff are so poorly treated and so poorly compensated that the best Scientologists stay far, far away so the orgs are all a mess. And that is just for starters.”

    And Grasshopper above:

    “There was a lot to be aggrieved about. The one that affected me greatly was the 5% per month increases that started in November 1976 and continued into the ’80s.”

    Whoever was responsible for implementing and continuing that 5% per month price increase was/were the person(s) most responsible for bringing about the current state of affairs, IMO.

    But whoever that was did not act alone. He/she was aided and abetted by everyone who decided to play that game by ponying up larger & larger sums of money at the end of each month (before the next 5% price increase).

    Their willingness to do so gave a huge win to whoever came up with that policy, because it gave the APPEARANCE of a condition of ever increasing Affluence.

    At some point in that evolution, Scientology became something the average person could no longer afford, and instead morphed into a rich person’s religion.

    The higher the prices went, the more problems were created for which unusual solutions had to be found. Witness the abandonment of the simple beginning steps at the beginning of the bridge (HAS, HQS) and the proliferation of “mini-courses” that became the only steps that persons of average income could afford. And as a result of that, the need to cannibalize a smaller and smaller group of wealthy people.

    I could go on, but instead will simply state that IMHO it is at least a possibility that the price increase policy started in fall 1976 paved the way for DM, as yet another unusual solution to the problems it created.

    If Scientology had continued to expand into the 80s as it did during the late 60s-early 70s, with more & more people of average income getting in, getting trained, co-auditing, getting through their OT levels – people who KNEW what the responsibilities of KSW really were – it is doubtful that someone like DM would have had a chance in Hell of seizing power.

    Instead, we wound up with a bunch of wealthy sycophants groveling in propitiation and fear at the feet of a madman.

  95. Independent Person

    You’re welcome. Thanks for being there, communicating, and kicking ass. 🙂

  96. Martin,
    I lived in Creston 86-7 after LRH left, working for the Broekers.There were no CST symbols on that racetrack at the time. The symbol was put in later, after DM took power and dismantled the Broeker’s org set up there and had CST caretakers over the property.

    From what I understand, the ranch was bought as a horse property and even came with a nice horse called Rojo on it which I took care for a while. LRH put in improvements of the horse property to include water system improvements, elaborate and extensive fencing with many gates to create separate pastures for horses, cattle, buffalo, separate pasture for the Angus bull, irrigation to maintain green pastures, horse training rink and the race training track with a separate tack building and jockey/rider facilities. He wanted this property to become one of the best horse ranches in the area, not for the purpose of CST symbols.

  97. martyrathbun09

    In fact, according to Sarge, he wanted to improve his temporary quarters so as to produce increase of value before moving on back to the Int base.

  98. MG, I like this post a lot.

  99. TRZEROINLIFE aka alex castillo

    Dear Marty,
    As an experienced ex evaluator I see what you are trying to do here.
    My two cents are:

    I know the list is enourmous, but please bear with me and take a look:



    * AC BASEL
    * AYUDA
    * A/K/A ISIS
    * DEMAYA
    * ELMIRA
    * FIELD, THE

    * HUB, THE
    I AM

    * LIFE AID
    * M-TECH
    * MUNA
    * A/K/A POWER
    * POWER
    * SAGE
    * SHAKTI
    * VIPERS
    * WUD-SHA-LO
    * YES
    * YMI

    The above list is I think clear evidence of how many people have attempted to become independent from the CoS over the years.

    Their reasons?


    The List One R/Ser witch hunt of the mid 70s (one I took part in, to my shame.

    The infamous Price Increase

    The so called LRH birthday game which opened the door to the biggest stat push in history, which led to heavy ethics and lots of people punished for being “downstat”, etc.

    The 1982 Mission Holders meeting where most of the major contributors to the expansion of scientology worldwide were declared suppressives.

    Of the list of splinter/independent groups listed above, I don’t see that any of them had a chance in hell of developing many successful actions because they were doomed to failure when they started. As you well know, the GO/OSA/RTC machine was too financially and otherwise powerful for those “little people” to succeed. No sooner they set themselves up for delivery they were wiped out. The seedlings were killed before they had a chance to grow.
    I don’t know (perhaps someone here does) how far in time the list goes and I can’t that you could learn much in terms of what they did right or what they didid wrong in order to learn from them. That the majority (I think there some real squirrel groups included) wanted to deliver Scientology outside the CoS is clear. That they were all obliterated by the corporate machine is also clear.

    In my opinion there is not much that history can do to help the current movement with. Nothing in the history of scientology compares to what you and Mike and many others have achieved so far.

    I think if you want to learn about successful actions concerning becoming independent, all you have to do is look at your own successful actions. You are working towards an Ideal Scene which has never existed before.
    And the prime ingredients have been: Courage, selflessness, a shitpile of Integrity and the firm conviction that LRH’s Tech WORKS.

    With such formula, nothing can wrong now or in the future.

    That’s what I think.



  100. As regards to the Independent movement “ebbing” away:

    I see a tension between the policy letter “What We Expect of a Scientologist” and the perceived growth of a Church organization. To paraphrase, in that policy letter, LRH describes a scenario where “a few of us” will keep the doors open for training and the “rest of us” get on the active comm lines of the world.

    Also, in Executive Series 33 — LEADERSHIP – MORE ABOUT (Taken from tape lecture 5901CO4 of 4 January 1959 titled “Leadership.”) LRH discusses the story of an INDIVIDUAL who brought down an entire mechanized society because “he didn’t like soup.” He refused to take the soup off the conveyor belt like everyone else and the whole assembly broke down.

    In this P/L LRH makes these comments:

    “In a society where individuals are free, where individuals can be rehabilitated, where individuals can still think, you can still have leadership. One individual can be selected by other intelligent individuals to represent them, or one individual by his natural ability can at least control some sphere of the social order around him. And unless this social order is controlled, unless there is a sphere that a thetan can bring order into, you have nothing but chaos.”

    “To lay down a big plan for Scientologists and say, “This is the organization and this is what we are going to do: steps one, two, three . . .’ is saying that none of you have a right to think or plan. The only thing we can do inside Scientology is hold the communication lines of Scientology and its service in an orderly state. And we can keep the show on the road. But this is an inside perimeter.”

    The corporate Church violates these two policy letters day in and day out by enforcing their plans of what a Scientologist should be doing. NO OTHER PLANS OR ACTIVITIES ARE ACCEPTABLE. All plans are geared to get you to come in to the org, come to the event, be on course, contribute to this or to that, OR ELSE. The purpose of it is to GROW the Church.

    Compare this to the independent field, where the focus is on rehabilitating an individual and once rehabilitated, there is NO BIG PLAN or big organization that MUST BE FED and kept going.

    Scientologists were perfectly willing to act, and act responsibly, perfectly willing to put their shoulder to making a better civilization, but INDIVIDUALS are not willing to be corralled and coerced and micromanaged and told what to do.

    My take on this is that if Scientologists are actually out in the world, then obviously they are not going to be professionally auditing or engaging in activities that professional Scientology activities such as offering courses or intensives of auditing. And so of course, they are not going to be in big groups all hanging out together every day with a narrow focus on delivering or disseminating services. Their connections will be and are ungoverned. When someone goes “out in the world” and starts making a difference, they will appear to “ebb away.” They are carrying principles and solutions and ways of thinking out into the world, not propaganda and dissemination activities designed to make a bigger looking group.

    I believe that the solution to all of this is to understand that we must look from a viewpoint of being valuable citizens of the world or the universe, with the auditing technology of Scientology being a tool that facilitates people to act in ways that are beneficial instead of ways that are bank reactive.

  101. Fantastic JM —

    Timing and degree — brilliant.

    Am learning more and more about just those two vital but mostly overlooked pieces of a successful life.


  102. haydn (T Paine)

    I guess the cross LRH has to carry is the fact that on the one hand he is criticized from some quarters for bringing up and dealing with things that are “out of this world” while at the same time criticized from other quarters for trying to make his way and survive in the real world, according to its rules, just like any of us. I guess that’s life on planet … Earth.

    PS. No one I know thinks LRH literally meant stash cash to pay for hit men when reading “Simon Bolivar”. It was meant figuratively.

  103. martyrathbun09, where is Sarge?. He promised an LRH last days biography.

  104. Martin Gibson, the oval-double-diamond-inlayed is a mathematical expression and explains a clear concept:

  105. I was staff in Belgium during this period. What you said sounds strangely familiar…

  106. Jim,

    That’s an EP I am really looking forward to. Well said.

  107. Claudio Lugli

    In my opinion there is a tremendous difference between the Indipendent Movement of the ’80s and the one happening now.
    The most important difference is that LRH WAS ALIVE – We did not know that he was virtually kept in seclusion by Broeker and Miscavige, we knew he was alive and well. So in the Sea Org there has been several instances of major situations BUT LRH was always coming back on lines and repair and correct the situation.
    So there is no doubt whatsoever that the insanity was rampant in the beginning of the ’80s with the expulsion of Mayo, and the whole International Executive Structure plus the GO and the entire Mission Network.
    But we “at the remote outposts of the empire” did not know what was really happening.
    The informations were not enough because of the lack of the Internet to counter the disinformation of the Church.
    That said, there is no doubts that squirrelling was rampant and so I beleive that it was that the very reason for the disappearance of the movement.
    It was also a very different situation with the Church not really a Church yet and so using the Copyright issue to fight the battle.
    Now the situation is completely different because they cannot use the same weapon (First Amendement) and shield they use to protect themselves to attack US. Is a Religion for THEM and is a religion for US – so we have all the right to practice it.
    The only problem THEY have is that their brand is becoming less and less LRH brand and more and more the Miscavige brand, and people will and are leaving in droves.
    I see a bright future for the Indipendent Movement if we learn also from the mistake of the past.

  108. Wow! It says ir all…

  109. martyrathbun09

    The LRH factor is not minor.

  110. fly on the wall

    Terrill, I have spoken often in my circle that I take exception with a lot of positions of the Democratic Party. Therefore, according to your logic, when I do that i am disparaging my father, brother, best friend,etc.
    Many here criticize the current church, yet we have family and friends inside who we love and we are not critical of them at all. A group and its members are not the same thing.
    You state, “we should have unity not division”. Then don’t sow division.

  111. Yes, terrific interview. What a dimplomat!
    What happened with his com. ev. seems
    indeed to be S.O.P. in David Miscavige’s church.
    Interesting also, what he says about David Mayo.
    Great guy, glad he contacted Marty.

  112. It is interesting how different we have experienced the past. In EU when Norton was the CO there was insane regging to Flag. Total new people who did not speak any english and did not have materials in their own language were regged for both sides of the Brigde. They took huge loans when people were cross-co-signing to each other. Of course they did not get any service and then they were not able to pay the loans back into the bank. some went to the prison and some killed themselves. Many co-signers lost their houses and went into big debts. From my viewpoint it was the worst time at Flag.

  113. Martin Gibson

    Oh, more data.

  114. Martin Gibson


  115. Random Stranger


    Well, I just didn’t know that a vacuum cleaning procedure was declared Suppressive. Damn, it certainly has seemed harmless, but what the hell do I know? I guess now I’m gonna have to Disconnect and strike a new deal with a broom.

  116. Martin Gibson

    Withdrawn, and apologies.
    I got the viewpoint.
    The only thing I wish to hold on to is that a massive amount of RUTH from LRH deserves due respect, ethics protection and “if it wasn’t for his discoveries, would you even be here today, or in anywhere near comparable shape”.

  117. Martin Gibson

    This data is not easily found.

  118. Thanks for that, LDW!

  119. There was also a “self-sufficiency” project in the works to gain the KRC of animal husbandry and the cultivation of actual nourishing food. This was then to be put in at the Int Base.

    Personally, the model at Creston was waaaaaaaaay better than what DM has at Gilman now. Creston had Dynamics in play. It had a future look and a solution to various scenarios. DM, not so much.

  120. Martin Gibson

    Auditor + PC

    Thanks Publius

  121. +1 Tony

  122. Brian,
    I am sorry but I don’t have the answers to these questions. I do know that if you continue to look and are willing to permeate the various areas you are questioning personally, that is, go about increasing your own knowledge of not only the things you are asking about (those specific circumstances) but in general with more knowledge of behavior, the mind, life and such, and then apply A, and C to gain the exact R, these question will answer and the entire thing will as-is.

    These bullpen questions can be answered. The simple mechanics of applied ARC will bring about the dissolution of anything, including the mysteries you mention.

    One tool that has proven very workable on that Data Trail, is Occam’s Razor. Another invaluable body of tech is the Data Series.

  123. What is Greatness

    Thank you Martin.
    You demonstrate my point
    And so no, your not not wrong.
    You are RIGHT.

  124. Regarding handling grievances – what I have seen over recent years is that various Sea Org members would promise to “look into it” and nothing would ever happen.

    A friend of mine told me a few years back that Sea Org members were afraid to do anything because they might get RPF’d. I have come to think that might be true.

  125. The question is where? Also, how can you establish trust that squirrelling won’t occur? This is the real issue for me; I want to do standard Scientology, but can I get it, truly, in the Independent field, without hesitation?

  126. Lady Minn, I couldn’t have said it better!

  127. It's Happening


    First, of all, great to see your name here! I knew you in NYC back in the day (though not well), along with Likki, Robin, Janet, Mike, and so many others. You were a great guy, and an fantastic musician. I hope you’re still playing!

    The next time I ran into Likki M. when she was working in a Burger King out in L.A. around 1976. I couldn’t believe how far she’d fallen in just a few years! I was in Europe for a bunch of years after that, but heard that you guys had hooked up. But until seeing your post today, I never knew about the so-called “auditing” B-1 gave her at ASHO or anything else about what came of her.

    I also have no idea what happened to Robin and Janet, or Mike– or you.

    Do you an an e-mail? I’d love to get in touch and compare notes!


  128. Maria,
    Superb post. Very cogent, and very much apropos to evaluation of the data available.

  129. Claudio,
    And with LRH gone from that body, the “boots” are there for us to put on. A group of OTs is the answer from RJ67. The idea of the “giddy diaper days” are over, this is OUR Scientology TOO, you know 🙂

    I’ve never waited for LRH to “come back”. But stepping up means at least conceiving the defintion of Full Responsibility. With a rising scale of awareness and posting that concept there to attain to, well I’ll be darned, IT WORKS.

    And here we are, assuming the status of full source and cause over the efforts and counter-efforts of the Dynamics. This is the group of OTs. There are many more being rehabilitated on their purposes and life again rises.

  130. It does cut both ways but the CofS does not use it to spread truth or to promote any other viewpoint than DM’s. If I want to know about an auditor today, I can access multiple points of info on the internet and evaluate the data to come to a conclusion of my own. I don’t have those connections in the physical world, don’t know the names, phone numbers, won’t see them at some social gathering, am not on the mailing list… I can gather info at much much faster speed thanks to the internet and thanks to how the information is presented. The whole cycle of investigation can happen quickly because of it.

  131. Beautiful !

  132. Marty,
    I don’t have much data on what was happening in the 80s independent scene. I was off the lines playing drums for those years.

    I can tell you that it was real to me then, even with the slight awareness that there was an offer of the Bridge in the field, that I wasn’t SURE it was valid.

    Today, I am. Today there is a library of legit material. There is that Qual Library.

    When I was finally deadfiled and had no line to resolve the various issues abundantly clear, well that difference of the material available made ALL the difference between then and now.

    Gone was the monopoly that DM craved and needed. The factor of the internet is the open comm lines got around DM’s work to cut them. He needs cut comm lines, isolation, and the lessening of reach to succeed. Otherwise, the Know to Mystery scale can be gone up and that is death for his agenda.

    The internet has the effect of making the Ideal expressed in An Essay On Management of open and real comm among the True Group Members possible. With those open lines and applied comm all the group engrams can be viewed and awareness increased as to what is going on, really, can be gained.

    But, still, for me, it was the fact that I HAVE the materials. The Bridge, the body of work is there and I can access it and learn it and use it and it IS the actual LRH material. I have no personal need for David Miscavige. He is no block on my road. He’s a yapping dog at the wheels of a firetruck on its way to a fire.

  133. Eventually, David Miscavige will be likened to the Red Chinese who descended upon Tibet in 1956, destroying over 6,000 monasteries (leaving 4) … thousands of monks and nuns left Tibet crossing over the Himalayas by foot or yak. The Himalayas are not rolling foothills 🙂 Many losing their lives.

    Before this time, Tibetan Buddhism was not known OUTSIDE of Tibet. It’s flavor and direction is quite a bit different than other branches of Buddhism.

    Now, only a half century later, Tibetan Buddhism is practiced all over the Western World – with innumerable teachers, many Tibetan and many westerners.

    Tibetan Buddhism once cloistered in Tibet started to come to the West and the highest teachings once kept secret are now available online and in100’s of books, translated in nearly all languages.

    LRH was evolving a technology that would help with his philosophy … some of that technology proved unworkable as it did NOT forward the philosophy.

    When I arrived at Marty’s blog a couple of years ago, I was delighted to see that Marty seemed able to THINK with the philosophy, rather than robotically follow some policy and or technology that didn’t seem to work.

    I’ve been actively studying Tibetan Buddhism as well as practicing now for 7 years and feel somewhat confident that I have a passable understanding — and I can say without question — there are HUGE parts of LRH’s technology that could and should find themselves into the Tibetan Buddhist world — and I’m betting they will. And although someone refuted this — I’m here to tell you — I did TR 0 at a retreat not long ago. Very modified lasting only 5 minutes but still — this is NOT part of any buddhist meditation practice.

    David Miscavige by his stranglehold on LRH’s vision and his utter contempt for the souls of men has done the world a tremendous favor. He is destroying what he co-opted and as a result others who understand LRH’s vision through his work … have taken over.

    Bringing the workable technology and philosophy of LRH once again to the world.

    Getting the details right about what happened when, is freeing for many of us — it’s secondary in my mind to allowing the WORKABLE pieces of this technology to move forward in time.

    To restate what JM said : “To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under heaven”

    Now is our time.


  134. Excellent analysis, Just me.

  135. Great post. Most informative comments too. I think Alex said it best in saying that this time is different and you have successful actions that are working. to affect change like never before.
    Kudos to Mr. Waxler. I love and respect the man. He’s been there through it all.

  136. If I ever get out there again, he’s top of my list to visit!

  137. I am not tech trained at all and know very little about that. For the time I was in the Sea Org I was busy with my attention focus out of the Org not in it, I had no clue what was going on in the Sea Org until after I was long gone and read about it on the net. I probably with all of my experience am one of the least knowledgeable people on the subject of Scientology or the Organization. I know only the first big outpoint clear to all in the field was the Sea Org coming in and wiping out the mission network where I lived. That effected everybody local and caused the area to mistrust the Sea Org and the Church. It also meant no more feeder lines into the Orgs as there had been two missions feeding those Orgs. The truth is, although it may be many things to many people, a religion, a crusade, a womb, a mental hospital, whatever, Scientologyis ALSO a business. And a business has CLIENTS and/or BUYERS. You can force people to do a lot of things but you cannot force them to BUY something they fear. The REASON behind getting ethics in is so the space is SAFE enough for AUDITING to occur.
    The subject expands and contracts along with this datum. When the space is SAFE, and people feel the space is SAFE, they come in and this spreads into expansion. When people are walking on egg shells and paying for that experience they soon move onto other places. I know before the militia arrived on the scene the Orgs and missions were safe spaces. I know by 1987, after the mission network massacre, the Orgs were all but empty.
    I also noticed the militia cease to be clients or customers and look down on those that are. Class systems form. If you can have no case on post all at once, you can have no case in life all at once too. Real or imagined. People do not want to get smacked around and bullied in any arena. You go to the Celebrity Centers where staff are still expected to act civilized to the public and the public regarded as wanted and needed and having some value, and you will see a decent scene. Tom Cruise should not be the only one in this game to be treated in a civilized manner. When I first got involved in Scientology EVERYBODY treated EVERYBODY in the Org with care and kindness. The Church has become one huge police force with the purpose of internal revenue. STOP and COLLECT. It is nothing new to behold. It is ANCIENT and we have plenty of it from other sources. We need not go into the Church to wonder at THAT!

  138. I hadn’t ever thought of how odd it must have been to be the receipt point of the resignation line. In my case it was the complete opposite. My mission holder not only allied with Mayo but was for quite some time his financier in the legal battles. He opened the door to all pubic and let them know of his doubt condition and his decision to team up with Mayo and gave all the public a choice of whether to stay with him or the church. If we chose to stay with the church we could pick up our folders and take them with us.

    He did express disagreements with management and continual price increases as the reason for leaving. Since LRH was alive at this time, his decision to leave was understood by me as he was allying himself to Mayo and by doing so was no longer an ally to LRH. This may have been incorrect, but it was what I had assumed to be true. My main interest was in getting my folders as I had already decided that I would stick with LRH.

    In the recent evolution of resignations from the church there is so much documentation regarding how the church is off policy and so many false datums have been blown to pieces by the availability of truth through blogs and forums. Right now, the only barrier to finding out the truth has to do with the individual making the decision to look or not look. The truth is out there. The internet did allow us to have time place form and event communicated to many people at the same time. This wasn’t available back then and others who were labeled squirrels had to rely on idividual communication in order to get more specifics on why they left the church.

  139. OEC/FEBC,

    Stats don’t just decline “by the Will of God”.

    The Situation DM mentioned may have existed, but he forgot to mention how very hard he and his cronies had been working in creating that very situation for a good 30 years. I’m not saying knowingly or unknowingly, just that they were. They had too much ego involved to admit they didn’t know what they were doing. They were faking it all along, IMHO. So yes, it was DM’s smoke and mirrors sleight of hand that pointed away from himself and his dogs as the responsible parties, to a “why” somewhere over there. Why did people buy his bullshit? Many individual reasons, perhaps best summed up by the term “slippery slope”.

  140. Alex,

    Thanks, there is more data which wasn’t included.

    From the inside, there was also Incomm systems which started in the 80s which allowed Int stats to be viewed at Int Incomm terminals. The actual stats internationally were going up until ’90, despite of all these Indie movements, injustice, Crusades, AAC and those you listed out because of Jeff Hawkins and the successful Dianetics campaign providing quite a lot of people wanting to do Dianetics and starting their grade chart advancement. That action which out created any flaps and which was stopped by DM is a huge factor.

    It shows he is not managing by stats and I still consider this as a tipping point, date coincident with his last going in session, with alteration to focus on:
    1. Tom Cruise and Celebs, leading to Idle Orgs and OTAsses dog and pony shows and statuses which is a lucrative game depriving the public of their energy.
    2. Transformation of the SO to a militaristic Organization, complete with marching and drilling and away from ARC/KRC, the basics of Scn.
    3. Mis-implementation of LRH’s WOOC eval in training auditors, leading to GAT which totally negates LRH’s why and handling for training auditors.
    4. Deliberate omission and suppression of the Humongous (superpower) rundown which would have handled the L1 Mess, along with empowering staffs to do their jobs better to make planetary clearing a possibility. Altering crininally the usage of this rundown to ” Regging for buildings”
    5. Change of concentration to make more money through materials such as expensive Quantum meters, BC materials where before, the tapes were free, GAK, Basics etc.

    Though there was a big push on stats and falsification of, the Birthday Game seemed to have made orgs larger in size, overall.

    The comparison to now of no visible stats or visible public in Idle Orgs, with Missions closing down, and David Miscavige outright fraud of implying that an Org was opened when it wasn’t in an International event seems to be a big difference.

  141. Who/What is surviving in this game? The same kind of people that are surviving in any game. People who treat others as they themselves would like to be treated. Sorry, but that is who is surviving in and with Scientology too. We are all artists in creating a new civilization. Artists attract suppression.

  142. I mention the above because the cartoons in the newsletter illustrate the abuse. It was right there then what the real protest was about.

  143. There is a WIDE difference between being “theetie wheetie” and having the ability to care about the guy in front of you. Sea Org Members “care factor” is an enforced one. As, at the drop of a golden rod you MUST cease to care, and at the placement of some symbols on a uniform you MUST CARE about the guy in front of you. I am sorry, this does not work in families, relationships, friendships, groups, church’s or governments. It only works in war time with militia. People are free enough to join the army or navy with benefits and prediction if they prefer that system.

  144. LRH definition of sanity #2 “A tolerance of confusion and an agreed upon stable datum on which to align the data in a confusion are at once necessary for a sane reaction on the 8 dynamics.”

    In the beginning, the stable datum was to clear people. That was a help flow, a care flow.

  145. martyrathbun09

    Materials is a huge factor.

  146. Terril,

    Why do you take the quotes out of context ?
    When you read the whole post you’ll also get the context and in fact it validates those people ?

    MOQ should write or find a reference about “studying only quotes without the context” . This is the 4th barrier to study ! 🙂 🙂 🙂
    Koolaids drinker are champions in that category !

    Have a good day

  147. martyrathbun09

    For thirty years? As if everything happened over night. Very over-simplistic thinking in my view.

  148. The same old LDW

    For decades, thousands of scientologists have been relying on others to determine for them what is and what is not standard tech.

    Many have been badly betrayed.

    You have to study the stuff and understand it and make your own decisions based on your understanding.

    If you haven’t yet done the grades, then order the Acad Level Packs from ebay and study them. You’ll get more gains. You’ll have better lasting gains.

    It’s up to YOU to bring yourself up to KRC with the data. Then, and only then will it be impossible to fool you. And I for one would rather that you are incapable of being tricked into anything because you KNOW, not because you trust someone else to know for you.

  149. Well said!

  150. What is Greatness

    Thank you, you are right.

    YES, there is indeed LOTS of truth in LRH’s philosophic writings.
    And no, I would not be here today if it were not for that.

    Practicing these universal truths in their purity and, when doing so, respecting the goodness of all people always, doing it always with the purity of intention to help beings become their true self, that is what would make Scn as an applied religious philosophy expand and expand and expand — just like Taoism has been and is, just like Buddhism has been and is.

    And I do mean all people — not just those that others who have come “out” have approved of, because they live up to “their” defintions of conditions, standards and thus freedoms to be.

  151. Wow !!!!!
    This makes lots of sense !
    DM and his nonsense is the opportunity to get real Scientology into the world !
    DM is probably the last lesson LRH wanted to teach us.
    With what we all learned now, it will never happen again !
    Thanks to DM !!!
    But there is one fact that never has been discussed. just Maria giving a glimpse of it. Millions of people had contact with Dianetics and Scientology and got some wins out of it. If it’s only knowledge of the Arc triangle. Those people are using their knowledge to a greater or lesser degree and so help to create a better world, even if they don’t call themselves Scientologist or go to church.

  152. And they’ll come out of the closet as soon as the supression is gone !
    Bright future.

  153. Yes, it is a communication channel but it is one that allows someone to approach the subject of looking and still keep ones integrity intact. One can read anonymously and even post anonymously while they are digging through the morass of truth and lies. After you do that a bit, the truth is so obvious and the lies are so blatant, often childishly ridiculous that it is easy to make up ones mind as to what is really going on.

    Then one can truly be their own advisor and choose which direction they want to procede in. An example of this is the pro LRH sites are quite different than those that don’t have that delineation. If one truly is pro LRH, they have a several sites available for them to go to. Those real distinctions did not occur before Scientology-cult and this blog. As I mentioned in an earlier posting some time back, I did not check out Scientology-cult in the beginning because I thought the name implied it was not pro LRH. Your recommendation of the site helped me to get past this barrier and I was able to avail myself to the very detailed information there. But, that was only done once I felt secure in trusting that you were pro LRH.

  154. Great info!

  155. Yes, I remember the introduction of the “mini-courses” and felt they were Dev-T right from the start. And those funky glossy color booklets with the small hard to read print. Precursors to the GAT. Little “nuts” encouraging more public to “squirrel” them away. What a waste.

  156. Isn’t that beautiful ?:

  157. Great post!

  158. I see the major outpoint and a barrier to missions survival in 80th – lack of promotion and comm-lines.

    Now with an Internet the expansion is unstoppable. Scientology future is nothing but shiny bright. Look at the message from Independent Scientologist Dan Koon aka Joe Howard. Ex Int Base Sea Org Member (1977 – 2004), LRH Technical Reseasch & Compilations Unit Director Dan Koon talks about the future of Scientology.

  159. Wow! That’s all I have to say about that. I think I just had a “moment”, as Jason Beghe would say.

  160. I’ll just offer my opinion.

    I fell that were LRH alive, he’d obviously grieve and have other emotional reactions on how official Scientology’s evolved.

    But from my policy “appreciation” and focus background, I think the organizational setups he’d essentially keep.

    I think it’s almost unfortunately like some long term people like Alan Walter and Ken Urquhqart, and Otto Roos, and Paulette Ausley, who have some appreciation and respect and honestly about “LRH’s own case”, and also people like Janis Grady, Arden Hansen, Kima Douglas, Julie Gillespie, David Mayo, who have looked at LRH honestly.

    LRH did have his own case, and that unfortunately had some influence the policy rules and restraints that are ALSO part of the problem.

    Marty, I respect you so much for even going public, and doing whatever you continue doing, I’m not a Scientologist, I can’t do auditing, etc.

    But I do think policy, and when I think what LRH lived, and what he wrote, his years of experience which thus added up to the whole existing movement’s setups, I think honestly it takes really, something like the “Exec Strata”, given the leeway, and only post people on the Exec Strata who LOVE that job,, love it as much as the best “Auditors of the Year” loved auditing.

    LRH if one really looks at all his policy, really tries hard to keep it ALL in one’s mind, and really think as if one is the “Ideal Exec Strata” think tank member, who really looks over the whole scene, truly, I can tell you, when LRH ED 339R Int came out, I was 3rd dynamically in ecstasy, that LRH even thought to have a “think tank” like body as one of the top councils of the church.

    That council has just never gotten off the ground, CMO Int Pgms Ops just nit picked Exec Strata members into shredded bits.

    Honestly, I think the big solutions of the whole freezone and independents are just a huge unfortunate ramification of NOT having really good managers who were allowed just one good idea a year.

    If each of the Exec Strata members were given first of all the 5-10 years of hatting, and if they truly loved their jobs, and really understood what their jobs were, I think Exec Strata membes COULD have dealt with ALL of the problems that have gone on these last 30 years.

    Of course assumeing RTC no nothings didn’t nit pick Exec Strata, and CMO Int no nothings didn’t understand what it takes to truly make a think tank.

    And I so wish the hindsight knowledge of the LONG list of people who’ve loved the best in the tech and knowledge they gained from Scienotlogy, the people I listed above, I so wish the BEST of their suggestions and actions, COULD be included in Exec Strata member’s research into fixing the movement’s problems.

    Marty, I thank you for this forum, and allowing so much input here.

    I still am knee jerk LRH policy, and I think official Scientology rests on the benefits of the best in LRH’s policy, enough so to keep them going despite the early 1980s and late 1970s injustices and policy misapplications, and the deep flawed policies that are LRH’s fault.

    I am an ex Scientologist atheist realist, and I think what LRH built and things he approved, even though flawed, are some of the most powerful fundamentals for having built the whole “3rd dynamic” of the movement, as tragic as the post 1965 fallings outs have been (meaning so many MORE quitters and blamed faithful Scientologists accumulated AFTER the whole mid 1960s and following SP and disconnection detailed policies, and Sea Org harsh ethics, which had to this day not ceased, Alan Walter has been one of the wisest commenters about this).

    But LRH’s policies and admin have been the machine that Miscavige took over, and his tweakings have been cumulatively negative, it’s still LRH’s foundations that are under official Scientology.

    I think you aren’t the same kind of person, in my mind, compared to a Phil Stevens, nor even Guilliaume, nor even Bill Franks during those first years Bill or even Kerry Gleason, were envisioning what the future of “top management” would be.

    a lot of “cleanup” of the bad habits (most due to LRH), there has to be a true honest reckoning and laying out of the LRH flawed policy, his own bad behavior, even though he was given the filtered biased reports that Pat Broeker, who himself was too knee deep and not even up to the level of management experience that could outthink LRH.

    The movement needs people who honestly truly can absorb the history, honestly, and outthink, and order the changes in LRH’s policies, even better than LRH would.

    Your honestly stating a year or so ago, that you think LRH would just thrown the whole Sea Org out the window, to me, that is only possible if LRH is really occluded about his green on white writings.

    He just wouldn’t do that. He did too much, he knows so much about the whole history of the orgs, he just knows too much.

    I think today, honestly, in this imperfect official Scientology world, with an ignorant and draconian and nutball leader, Miscavige, plus with the last 30 years of shreddings that the Exec Strata and WDC members have taken, that it’s unfortunately gonna be a long haul to even get top personnel who even can think with following LRH’s admin principles, and who are sane enough to outthink LRH’s mistakes, and correct those mistakes.

    THey legally hold all sorts of things, they’ve pretty much started executing LRH’s intentions for LRH’s wealth (namely the CST project, archving LRH’s legacy for long term safekeeping for whatever long term digging up of his tech might long range be needed).

    Miscavige has built shinny buildings so dying official Scientologists will have those facilities to find in their future lives.

    I am an atheist, but I hope longer range down the road, that official Scientology just wises up, lets the Exec Strata do it’s job (post only people who LOVE that job and really can produce 1 good reform per year and pilot and implement the reforms by trial and error, be transparent with the movement members like the Free Spirit newsletter intones), and just be all one movement of Scientologists.

    In my years since 2003, looking over the best ideas of reform, some of Alan Walter’s comments to me,, about LRH’s “change”, and the SP direction of the mid to late 1960s, the tone of the Sea Org over the movement, these things I hope the 3rd dynamic members who would like to resolve it so Scientology is a tolerant “big tent”, I wish you all well.

    Whatever anyone does, seems overall fine.

    When LRH in one lecture said “It’s your Scientology too, you know” that’s authorization to do whatever you all agree on.

    As an ex admin fanatic and think tank ecstatic wanna-be helper (I wished to just work for one of the Exec Strata members as a scribe policy nerd expert clerk “helper”, that was really my top wish), I’m biased.

    Someday, if he Exec Strata members are given the leeway to become think tank experts, I hope they accomplish the major movement fixing, and take all the great Scientologists’ hindsight advices.

  161. One other point that I feel has contributed to the improved success of the current Independent movement is that we have been able to apply ethics tech to DM this time around. In the 80s there was very little leverage against the church. Now, with the knowledge provided from those who worked at Int, where the corruption was the worst, it is possible to put pressure to bear upon DM himself.

    He knows what Marty and Mike know and he knows they can’t be bought or suppressed. With Debbie now in the mix we have a formidable team against the black ops, injustices that have eventually toppled others before us. I think a large change has been a result of putting in ethics, Ethics Review is being used in full.

    As Moneca mentions earlier, when Mayo closed, the field went into apathy. This time the leaders in this movement are committed to ending the suppression so that LRHs legacy can go on. The current movement is and has been on the offense. In the 80s, there was no game plan for handling DM, permanently. Choosing to just deliver and try to ignore DM just didn’t work and ultimately put them at effect.

  162. Jim, let me give a ack to very important and valid points you made here.

  163. Another Layer

    “The higher the prices went, the more problems were created for which unusual solutions had to be found. Witness the abandonment of the simple beginning steps at the beginning of the bridge (HAS, HQS) and the proliferation of ‘mini-courses’ that became the only steps that persons of average income could afford.”

    Great comment! I, too, see this as the pivotal point. The price increases were the beginning of the end; they gradually crippled quantity (students, office workers, mechanics, artists, working moms, etc., all searching for answers and forming a willing pool of potential auditors), which led to false assertions of quality, and ultimately, no (or pretended) viability.

  164. MostlyLurker

    Another great reading are the Reconnection issues:

    People were fighting for their freedom to practice Scientology back then too. They were not bad people.

  165. “I can tell you that it was real to me then, even with the slight awareness that there was an offer of the Bridge in the field, that I wasn’t SURE it was valid.

    Today, I am. Today there is a library of legit material. There is that Qual Library.”


  166. Free and Clear

    I think there is a major, huge difference between the Indy movement of the 80’s and present time. That is the originators and leaders of the current movement are admin trained and very experienced in the kind of dirty tricks used to shut down opposition. CSI and RTC is fighting against the actual operational heads of CSI and RTC. And it has not been going well. David Mayo and other techies who broke away in the 80’s were babes in the woods compared to Marty and Mike. Also people under a lot of suppression will often go PTS and get squirrelly. Not so with Marty and Mike because of this fact- that if you know the tech of something and use it, you cannot be the adverse affect of it. Think about what has been thrown against Marty and Mike. But it is all in an arena that they know the tech of and apply. So no PTSness, no squirrellyness, just rock solid leadership that is totally steady on standard ethics, tech and admin. Without rock solid leadership, any movement will fail. So there is a huge positive difference in leadership for the Indy movement. On the other side, the leadership for C of S has dramatically degraded. in the 80’s the leader was LRH. He was still there and was still communicating. Not so now. The Scientology website makes it very clear that the active leader of the C of S is no longer LRH but is DM. And despite his efforts to portray himself as superhuman there is an inherent knowingness that DM is not big enough to fill even one of LRH’s bedroom slippers. Scientologists know that. They are perhaps not going to rebel, but there are few darn people out there that would follow DM to hell and back. When push comes to shove, and the shit is really hitting the fan, DM will lead the charge and glance backwards and find himself looking at Lou and no-one else. I think that for this single reason there cannot be a comparison between the Indie movement of the 80’s and the Indie movement of today. There is no comparison. The current Indie movement is rock solid and moving forward like a slow train comin’ down the line. It will arrive. The movement of the 80’s, with identical ideals, was lead by techies who stood around innocently while some pretty hard ass people cut them down. It’s the same ideals, but a completely different structure.

  167. oh, and I also think the truth about the carrots being offered by the church, OT9/10 and super power. Those are big carrots that PT kool aide drinkers what at all costs, present public and staff, they have been working all their lives for it.

  168. “If evil presented itself right out, anybody can see it, thus it is hidden.”

    Precisely right Capt Bob. I think people still in have sorely misduplicated their PTS/SP tech & the Chart of Human Evaluation. They don’t see anyone with horns sticking out of their head so they think the evil is on the outside when it’s right in their midst, hiding in plain sight.

  169. Freedom Fighter

    Actually, I think the biggest difference here is that Marty and Mike worked directly with Miscavage for so many years and have intimate knowledge of the way the guy operates.

  170. “On the other side, the leadership for C of S has dramatically degraded. in the 80′s the leader was LRH. He was still there and was still communicating. Not so now. The Scientology website makes it very clear that the active leader of the C of S is no longer LRH but is DM. ”


    We don’t need a leader. LRH wasn’t a leader. He was the goal maker. We need a management body.

    It’s that KSW thingie, so the ogre which might eat us up is not the government or high priests. It’s our possible failure to retain and practice our technology.

    And regards that and what SINAR posts above, there are 4 conditions of exchange. Which one is the church nowadays. It’s number 4 – rip off, no exchange especially with the ideal orgs and ias and other dono regging. Debbie Cook has it right. Why are the public staying away, they see it as a rip-off, only us on the inside don’t see it because, why we have had some gains.

    Regards the indie movement back in the 80’s, one only had to apply KSW and the 4 conditions of exchange and also LRH policy on don’t ever borrow, keep credit as a second cushion, to it’s indie public. Deliver to them, if they wish to do more and don’t have the money, then offer advanced payments. It’s easy. But back then, if they got too big, Mayo, why the church used their LEGAL power to shut them down or keep them in fear.

    Any regular business that is a legit business tries to offer in abundance. And when they do, they boom. How on earth could the church not boom? KSW.

    One should also realize that credit cards for the public in general did not come into vogue until the early 1980’s. In the 50’s, 60’s and 70’s there were no credit cards, people were not in debt to those plastic demons. People did have money saved in savings accounts that did earn 10% on those savings. But that changed rapidly in the 90’s and now people were in debt. I even remember somebody figuring it out and sold on TV how to become a credit card millionare by taking cash advances and then gambling in the stock market or buying a business.

  171. “This got me thinking about how the cult uses the idea that the word Scientology and other related words are copyrighted. All in an effort to prevent others from “squirreling” the tech but mostly to have a monopoly on the use and control of Scientology.”

    that’s correct. It’s that legal thing. It has nothing to do with squirreling.

  172. “If you haven’t yet done the grades, then order the Acad Level Packs from ebay and study them. You’ll get more gains. You’ll have better lasting gains.”

    that’s right, it’s not a secret or confidential what processes are being run on a person, When you do a co-audit, you study the process’s and so does your twin, so you know, yes you know what is being run on you..

  173. Brian/Om/Mercury

    @ Marty actually my life is great, I love my life.This blog has given me the opportunity to revisit some things. And I thank you Marty.

    I’m not anti Ron or pro Ron. I’m simply seeing a connectivity between certain ways of dealing with people that have a commonality. This blog is about Scientology and its present challenges and how it has evolved to the present condition, not me.

    But I may be thinking the unthinkable thought here on this blog.

    It is interesting that no one has addressed these events I’ve stated, It has become about me. My possible case, my judgementalness. Not the harm I’ve stated that others experienced pre Miscavige.

    @ Martin I’m fine, thank you for caring and offering your help. You are probably a great auditor.

    What I’m allowing myself to do here is think, look and share communication. In the mean time I may learn more about those elements of my past that have brought me to the present.

    If any thought I pose is offensive to any, it is not my intention. Iconoclasm is my friend, but I sometimes forget it is not necessarily friendly to others.

    I allow myself to look at anything and everything. Truth is never afraid of constructive criticism, but on the contrary, reasoned constructive criticism verifies and validates truth. That has been my experience.

    I am not a Scientologist anymore but I am still on the path. I do feel very good about what is happening here. And the positive things Ron has brought to the world I hope millions can be helped with.

    I wish the Independent Scientologist all the success!

    All I’m saying is…………. that it is ok to look………………. at anything 🙂

    Love to You All Always,

  174. Karen B, I went to another site early on and communicated openly, not long after I left staff and finally just left over being “attacked” when I said anything positive about my experiences. I happened upon the site the other day and searched my screen name, clouddancer and come to find out, they really missed me. LOL I had no idea. They used me as an example of how NOT to treat people. 😉

  175. it so subtly becomes exchange no 4, rip off. or probably exchange no 3 – partial. especially when you add in all the money you are pressured to donate to IAS, No drugs, way to happiness.

    yah, the way to happiness is to leave and go to Happy Donuts for a nice cup of coffee and a donut.

  176. PS. I’m pretty sure a few people who were there and did not attack are here now. Thanks again Marty and everybody who communicates here.

  177. You bet, Jim. And if one could – and did – assume that Cause point (putting on the boots), one would also find they were responsible for the goodwill of Scientology as a whole:

    “It is part of every staff member’s job to help build goodwill for the organization by doing those things that will cause the public to think well of it, and by refraining from doing those things that would result in bad PR for the organization.

    Above all, it is every staff member’s primary concern that the organization is delivering the best tech quality possible. This point in is the source of goodwill.

    You must take a hand in creating goodwill. It is your org.”

    LRH, HCOPL 7 April 1983, Executive Series 25, “Goodwill”

    This viewpoint can be applied to what is occurring now towards the goal of “stepping up” and being responsible for Scientology’s impact on the world and the goodwill and good word of Scientology.

  178. that is why it is not a PR tool or dissemination tool, maybe for coca cola it is. KSW and 4 conditions of exchange and word of mouth are the tools. Central files keeps people locked into the church with their fancy promo and false stats and listen don’t look. And they repeat it every week.

  179. “3. Mis-implementation of LRH’s WOOC eval in training auditors, leading to GAT which totally negates LRH’s why and handling for training auditors.”

    Now per friends of LRH website, training. Primary rundown is the required first step of all study. It’s up to the C/S to hold this line IN?????????????

    It is a high crime to omit this step. Excuse me, Keeping Scientology Working?

    OK, you c/s’s out there. Have you done this?

    We’ve heard of the dumbing down of Americans in the USA public education system. How about the dumbing down of Scientologists.

  180. one of those who see


  181. I like your points Sinar, you have something there.

  182. Les, well I guess you and Marty and others know this, “As Marty pointed out some time back, OT 9 and 10 are a myth”. But what about others coming here for the first time? Do they know this? Namely people on OT8, or on OT7? Thus I may repeat myself.
    And thank you for replying to complete the comm cycle.

  183. “Of course they did not get any service and then they were not able to pay the loans back into the bank. some went to the prison and some killed themselves. Many co-signers lost their houses and went into big debts. From my viewpoint it was the worst time at Flag.”


    Leila, see this pisses me off to no end. The god dam church can’t even apply what LRH says, don’t borrow money. This is really sad what you write, as it is happening today. I will bet you if Debbie Cokk sees this, she will shit in her pants and say oh my god I didn’t know. And I bet you 99.99% of the current staff would agree if they were allowed to see the truth.

  184. HereNow
    David Mayo said something very profound back in the 80s which I will quote here (paraphrased)

    No one singular entity should have the RIGHTS, Copyrights, Trademarks, to rule whether they will or will not permit you (a human being) to have or not have a spiritual future

  185. martyrathbun09

    LRH said substantially the same in PDC 1952.

  186. “But why should you have to justify yourself to an SP?”

    very true. If you being held at gun point from a robber, and he says how much money do you have? Do you justify (or tell the truth)?

  187. tell me where they are.

  188. Here Now
    David Mayo said something profound in the 1980s that I have often thought about.
    I do not have the exact wording, but this is it paraphrased :

    No one single entity should have the power to decide who can and cannot practice and advance on their own spirituality.

  189. Karen B, this was exactly my predicament. Much as I disliked what the CoS seemed to have become, nevertheless, I believed that LRH was still there and would not abandon the group he’d created. In England, the only comm line was ‘Reconnection’ edited by John Atack, the ‘Mad Hatter.’ His anti-LRH posture eventually put me off, so I rejoined the group, and my dark days began – 30 years of ethics hell.

    Reconnection actually advertised a subscription to The Free Spirit and had Independent Scn contacts, but I wrongly assumed that LRH was still active somewhere, running the church, and that I should stick with the devil I knew (the church, I mean).

    I wonder how Miscavige will justify himself? “It was the voices what made me do it, your honour,” perhaps.

    Richard Kaminski

  190. I remember well the start of the 5% per month thing. ASHO D had a party because they had the highest ever GI that month. The impetus was an LRH ED that came out suggesting that a gradient way to soften the blow of increased prices was to increase only 5% a month… but there was no stated end date. So, it just kept on going.

    I hated it. I was very vocal about hating it. I never bought that being against the price increases was “enemy line” – what crap “enemy line” is, anyway. As if I have NO ability to think for myself, and ANY opinion I have that counters “Command Intention” must be the result of “enemy line.”

    Since the OICs were public back then, it was easy to see that the supposed point of the increases, which was to increase income and raise staff pay, was NOT being done. The GI at ASHO D was consistently around $25K-30K per week in 1975/76. The GI in 1982, 83, 84 was less. There were far less people on course (not on staff) and less $$$ coming in the door.

    In 1976 there was a sea of people on courses all over the world. The roll call on the BC took 15-20 minutes there were so many people. When I was on the BC, we HAD about, maybe, 20-30? If that.

    Yes, the price increases may have started out as a good idea, but became suppressive.

  191. when you turn it, the church, into a business, you have to have Rights, Copyrights, Trademarks. It’s a fine line. It’s a legal thing, a law thing, a constitution thing. I do not know. It’s a monopoly, but yet it is spiritual or religion.

  192. Thanks Jim — I might add that this policy letter was NOT included in the re-issue of the green volumes. To me, that speaks volumes.

  193. Poet,
    I am sorry if I am in a fog, but I am a little confused by your statement, so forgive me if I have misinterpreted…
    regardless, it’s not a matter of having to justify to anyone in either direction…it’s a matter of stating truth for all to see… as in time, place, form, event…or like in a cramming order when you are referred to the reference to show exactly what you did incorrectly, or like how a PROPER ethics order should be written. It takes the mystery out of the package, and also provides for possible future understanding if it wasn’t accepted at the time. This is something that I did not experience with the earlier people who left for Mayo’s group. They simply said “I resign”, without any real communication about it.
    And like Worsel and Karen B. added, the lack of reality made it something I did not understand and only saw as they were not with LRH anymore. (Which may or may not have been the case, but there was no comm to make that clear.) These were people who knew me for many years …I was never an “unapproachable” person to them.

  194. excellent

  195. Martin Gibson

    Good to get your full viewpoint.
    And I agree completely with look at everything.
    Can’t as-is with out it.
    And any area one refuses to look can conceal data and has power to box one in (or out).

    The church is creating cowards. Confusion and stupidity are VFP’s.

  196. Thanks Jim, this exploration is a bit cursory for me. I have done a lot of introspection and desolving of past mind.

    Seeing you all going though this process has brought back a few stragglers of my own mind.

    I am love to investigate all and everything. I am happy.

    Thanks 🙂

  197. Martin Gibson

    Yeah, I slipped a gear after a couple of beers and then, later, duplicated your viewpoint.
    Its true, the ideals are to be lived up to.
    While I am working towards understanding the whole scene, I also want to keep propping up the tech.Keep learning it, USING it.

    I really want it to expand, and with full reality. There are so many people that actually parallel what scientology is, but they just haven’t recognised it, or even been exposed to enough data to have any chance of finding out.

  198. I’m not sure what you think I wrote, Marty, but I my point was exactly that things don’t happen overnight, that “the Situation” OEC/FEBC refers to was created over a period of 30 years or so. It was created step by step, and not by God. And it was that step-by-step “slippery slope” that made for a general acceptance of DM’s rationale for the GAT, by those who remained in the Church.

  199. Yes, the web makes all the difference. And not only the web, but blogs that can be set up and run at no charge with minimal technical knowledge.

  200. I do not agree that “squirreling” is the “why” that the initial efforts of those who exited in large numbers circa 1982 did not result in healthy, growing organizations of the kind envisoned by LRH. There are several extremely intense factors in play during the time period:

    1. This is during the time period that the AMA Committee on Quackery, which began in 1964, relentlessly pursued its agenda to drum alternative health and holistic practices out of existence. Fortunately for us, and unfortunately for them, the Chiropractic field took the brunt of this activity and were finally able to get a judgment against the AMA for conspiracy and monopoly in 1987. It went to appeals and was upheld in 1990. During this evolution, alternative practitioners were AT RISK of being harassed, charged for practicing medicine without a license, and so on. It was really only after 1990 that there was any true public acceptance and freedom in the alternative health / holistic movement.

    2. The American Association of Pastoral Counselors was founded in 1963 as an organization which certifies Pastoral Counselors, accredits pastoral counseling centers, and approves training programs. From their website: “The integration of religion and psychology for psychotherapeutic purposes began in the 1930’s with the collaboration of Norman Vincent Peale, a renowned minister, and Smiley Blanton, M.D., a psychiatrist, to form the American Foundation of Religion and Psychiatry, now the Blanton-Peale Institute.” However, even though Peale was instrumental in forging this idea, he was drummed into the ground by APA members. By 1963 he had been thoroughly discredited and if you read the criticisms leveled against him, you will find that they are chillingly similar to the propaganda leveled against Scientology. From what I have been to research, an ongoing strategy of the APA is to attempt to re-designate all forms of spiritual counseling as a form of psychotherapy, which should be licensed under their purview.

    3. Not only was the Independent or Freezone field faced with the AMA and APA efforts to discredit and hound their efforts into the ground, but the C of S also worked to discredit and hound them into the ground.

    4. The emergence of the Internet (circa 1994-96) really nailed them, with the extremely anti-Scientology websites coming online, and the Church engaging in strategies that did not work and worse, opened Scientology to even more extreme criticism for censorship and militancy. Scientology’s PR image and repute has been systematically damaged and the extreme actions and abusive behaviors of the C of S only served to aggravate the situation.

    5. As it stands now, unless Independent Scientology take care to steer clear from any form of diagnosis of physical or mental health and get themselves set up as religious entities, they are not only at risk from the C of S, they are also at risk from regulations governing health care practitioners.

    What is amazing is that ANY people from the earlier time period continued to practice at all for any length of time. Betrayed by their Church, betrayed by their government, and smeared beyond all reason by the Church and by the media and on the Internet, there is little wonder that they could not make any headway.

    Marty, I appreciate your efforts and the work you have been doing. I believe that without the earlier individuals that have backed up your efforts and contributed by commenting and linking and sending people to the information provided, this blog would never have gotten off the ground. I thank every person who has posted to this blog and made it a success.

    And I thank the countless people who fought back and hard against the onslaught against alternative health, holistic methods, and spiritual practices however “squirrely” they may seem to others, otherwise we would not have the freedom to even offer auditing. And that does include the many Sea Org members who worked their heart and souls out to ensure that it would be possible at all for there to be spiritual practices such as auditing free from the restrictions of medical and psychological licensing and restrictions.

    It has been an incredible, difficult and tough environment to work in, but I do believe that we are finally seeing the light of day — not just for Scientology, but for all of the spiritual and religious paths and practices that are the true hope of mankind.

  201. Captain Bob.
    There’s a scene in the film, The Outlaw Josey Wales, where a lost soul pulls a rifle on Clint Eastwood and tells him to unfasten his gunbelt and hand it over, real slow. Incredibly, Clint Eastwood complies. I couldn’t believe it, but there it was, in the script. While watching this, I thought to myself, ‘Yeh, well, that’s just a story. In real life, Clint Eastwood would have just pulled his gun and shot him because he’s so quick on the draw.’

    Incidentally, I wasn’t referring to Bela as the SP, and I sincerely hope Bela did not think so.

    I wrote a long letter to whom I most trusted in my local org listing specific outnesses, time place, form and event, relating to myself and handlings I’d received. After a long comm lag of several months, another person said to come in and we’ll handle. This handling turned out to be so bizzare, that I ended up with the choice of completely caving in, or surviving somehow by walking away. Lucky for me, I chose surviving! I arrested a long, dwindling spiral of upset with a simple click onto Google. The CoS is sick in that they can’t hear you. I know this through bitter experience.

    If a robber, as you say, pulled a gun on me and asked me how much money I had, why should he believe anything I said? Likewise, the CoS isn’t interested in anything you have to say, they just want as much money as they can get. The CoS has finished with Reason and Ethics.

    Talking hypotheticals can be a lot of fun. SPs and PTSes aren’t hypothetical, though.

  202. one of those who see

    Thanks for posting this interview Tatiana. I watched the whole thing. How lucky we are to count Ian Waxler amongst the Independents! Ever since I went Independent, I’ve been reading up on these early guys. So many highly trained, valuable terminals. Marty, this is great. I feel our group coming together.

  203. Spot on Bro’.

  204. DM’s pay might have gone up since the 80’s. Not a bad paying job really.
    This is what he was paying himself more than two decades ago:

    Click to access pay-miscavige-and-starkey-families-q3-a-c-ii.pdf

  205. Free and clear,
    You’re right, in the 80s scene there was that LRH factor; he was alive and he IS the Goal Maker. That pull of reach for the theta of that Goal and Goal Maker was mighty strong. It added to the decision making to stay with the Group. The LRH factor was a huge element then.

    Since that time, DM has cut those theta lines. He’s violated An Essay On Management and now those VERY powerful theta lines are coming back straight to the point they were cut – David Miscavige.

  206. To me, Mayo had nothing to do with Independent Scientology. I personally had a bone to pick with him because of the way he usurped the HCOB line and altered the TRs.

  207. Hi Grasshopper:

    “There was a lot to be aggrieved about. The one that affected me greatly was the 5% per month increases that started in November 1976 and continued into the ’80s. ”

    That issue was the single most destructive issue that ever appeared. In my opinion, it was THE reason why the fun went out of the Bridge. Anyone who was there then, knows just how big and flowing the Bridge was in those days, unbelievable by todays standards, From ’75, ASHO D producing 100 Sr. SHSBC graduates a year, ASHO F a similar amount, up until the late 70’s. Missions were pouring people onto the Bridge by the hundreds! The place was FULL!!! Auditors, Clears, OTs, were being created in abundance.

    If you were there, you know…

    Other orgs, such as AO and Flag blossomed as a result.

    Then, came that issue, an LRH ED I believe, and it all ended, the Bridge became very, very serious. The fun was gone, and the great exodus began, as people worried that they’d fall too far behind, had to go to earn money to pay for the services before they rose out of reach, and didn’t actually start the service, because they had to get the money for the next one, and the next, and so forth. Resigns and arrivals crashed, and have never recovered. In my opinion, that ED was the greatest disaster in the history of Scientology, it completely unmocked the Bridge.

    Some of you may remember that LRH cancelled that ED, due to, according to LRH, the pain emanating from the field.

    Of course, the money stat crashed, and then someone had the brilliant idea to reenact that ED, and the prices began to rise again.

    Shortly after that came all manners of evil, DM, Financial Police, etc.


  208. I feel the LRH factor is the greatest difference between the 80’s and today. There were many well intentioned Scientologists booted into the field in the 80’s. They did not have a legal access to the LRH materials and LRH was alive and still the founder within the church. Today, source, the valid Dept 21 for the subject and as such for the successful Independent field is found in the materials.

    With legal access to the materials and rights for us to practice our religion the current Indie field and movement is ahead. With a pretend Dept 21 within the church it will continue to bleed and lose true Scientologists. DM is not, nor has ever been, source. We don’t have to believe dogma.

    The simple ability to duplicate and apply the materials and maintain the beingness of an auditor and the intention to help another being become more able is the key. No hidden standard and no ulterior monetary motive. The Independent field delivering standard tech will continue to expand. The expansion and success will be proportional to the deliver of the gains and wins available from this Tech.

    I agree with Jim, a bright future for the Independent Movement if we learn also from the mistakes of the past.

  209. Also, if I recall correctly, not sure, that when LRH cancelled that ED, he also reduce the costs of services. Someone can correct me on this if they have the issue.

  210. Great post, Personal Judas!

    “I believe I would still be angry, confused and stuck in the deadly misidentification of the church with the subject.”

    That IS SO WELL PUT I want to repeat here in case somebody
    missed it.

  211. FCDC Class of 74

    I tried the link for the article and get an error message “the file is damaged and could not be repaired”, is there another way to get a copy or location to access a copy?

  212. The cofs became an sp group the day dm became head. Those who left in the 80s were correct to do so. More so than those who took longer. Doesn’t matter if they had it evaluated correct or not. Correct action of leaving is correct action. Whatever they did after that initial leaving is a moot point. Anyway I support the bright light of truth shining on the dm forehead and up his ass.

  213. Bela,
    I had to receive those resignation letters too. They came into the org on the desk of the Ethics Officer. Telling him that they leave and giving the Ethics Officer their letter. Almost all letters having the same lines. „Management bad, prices too high, off policy actions“ But no „out tech“. I had the impression they have been ordered to do that. They wanted to push the „enemy line“ into the org. They seemed to be a bit robotic in what they did. Not self determined. That was also my main reason why I never asked myself if I would join them too as they had been robots in my view.
    (what I wrote here is the my viewpoint from mid 80ies)
    You wrote that you had seen that as staff of Mayo group. I had the same experience as staff of a „regular org“. Two different groups same pattern of action. Interesting.

  214. It is a shame what one can do by altering the tech and the purpose of it. Rollback is a simple action . In essence you ask „who did tell you..“ (cookies of company X are bad) Then you get a name and thats it. (to be more accurate: you get a mind)You do not want to punish the one that had this idea. You want to track down that idea from mind to mind to another mind and find the source of that idea. I wrote intentionally „mind“ not person. Those that had not been trained as auditor did not understand how this works. They perverted it as thought control. As stupid as they have been they insisted on words only and excluded no verbal communication like concepts.
    I think you have been told how to do that and have had a rollback yourself and thus you had to apply that in a nasty way.

  215. Martin Gibson

    Just on clearing up this true vs false (either lies, twisted facts etc from ESMB and other places) will your book clear up most of these questions?
    Not having “been there” myself, there is a lot of data that is conflicting, and instead of trying clear it up with a vague idea of what went on vs what really went on vs no-data-available, I was wondering if you will be expanding on the timeline from the 60’s or 70’s to PT to some degree. The data from yourself, Sinar and Jim cleared my wrong assumption on the creston point up completely, so I hope I can put analysing that period on hold knowing that a clear time-track of events will be available.
    It would be cool if these areas were clear.
    And there are other datums that have been put forward on circumstances of LRH’s will, RJ’s (some that appear to have been voice acted).
    If data will be coming forth on that I would be relieved to put the joining-the-dots-with-little-or-no-data aside.

  216. martyrathbun09

    Yes, all about straightening out the severely entangled timetrack.

  217. martyrathbun09


  218. Hi Marty;

    I think one of the main differences between the Indies of the 80s and present was the ‘hit’ that was being taken then, compared to now, the ‘shock’ effect.

    In the 80s we were being hit hard, there was a ‘shock’ effect in the ranks of the public at the time, and there was no way to communicate it, and you sure couldn’t get it off in session, confidential or not. The price increases, the Finance Police, the ordering to flag of everyone who had a body to do KSW, the degredation of the field auditors and ethics terminals by I HELP, the destrution of the Mission Network, the exodus from the Bridge, all these hit seemingly one right after the other with no reason why. We were literally left reeling! The idealism we all had about the Bridge and the future of Scientology, the joy, was rapidly destroyed, turned into fear and worry, and a very not safe environment. I was once sent to ethics because I mentioned to a friend that I thought the prices were too high.

    The lack of comm then, it was all rumour, people just ‘disappeared’, with no issues, nothing, just gone. Even the SO numbers crashed at that time, a very significant percentage were no longer in the SO.

    Those individuals in the field at the time were struggling with this shock. This was completely unexpected, beyond any comprehension, no way to find a Who or a Why, no understanding, just the continued hitting and hitting and hitting. There was no way to rally together. Individuals and very small groups began to form, but no comm between them because frankly no one knew what others were doing, comm lines had been wrecked. The only one that was really known was Mayo and his groups, and they were undone.

    SP’s do exist, there is such an animal, and prior to that era, people who were declared were SPs’, not all of them of course, but the percentage of those in the Indie field at the time was much higher than now, when SP declares are just part of the CofS’s daily ritual. Today, the vast majority of SPs are not SPs. Back then, as a consequence, there was a lot of squirrling going on. This continued up into the ARS era, where on ACT there was a lot of ‘reasonableness’ of people tying there own thing. I think the two main reasons for all the squirreling was the percentage of actual SPs out there, and the lack of LRH material, and the inabiltiy of individuals to form groups, and groups to form organizations.

    The internet is just a tool, yes, but it is the tool that makes the difference. Here we can all safely comm and find out about each other, where then it was near impossible to connect up with others of like mind, unless you already knew them, or knew someone who knew them.

    Also, one of the main concerns then was getting the tech out into the field. The only ones who had any were those to took their personal stuff out with them. If you didn’t have it when you left, you didn’t have it at all, and there was no way you could get it. As I mentioned in a post here a year or more ago, back then the teckies were leaving. Now the admin personnel are leaving. So, now, persons with a lot of admin training, mostly XSO but not just XSO, are out here organizing.

    The GO, then OSA, was fully operational then, destroying who and what it could find. The none Scino public, the ‘wogs’ were unaware of what was happening, there was no media of any significance. The Indies were truely alone, the ‘lonely only’s’. The best way to survive was to keep quiet, not be noticed, because if you got hit, you got hit alone. Today, that is not the case.

    Someday, someone who has a comm line capable enough, should write the history of this rebellion. It would make for a very fascinating, exciting read. If written well, it would be a best seller.

  219. martyrathbun09

    Interesting. But, I would say that L Ron Hubbard and Scientology were the earlier-beginning and really took the brunt – in fact, paved the way for the Chiros to prevail.

  220. Hi Ian;

    You may not remember me. We were on the BC at the same time, and as a Class VIII student you did a comm ev for me that straightened out a false report that had knocked me off the BC for 7 months. You helped me a lot, and I made it to Class VIII as a result. Thanks.

    I see your mustach hasn’t changed.

  221. Hi George,
    To clarify, I wrote that as I was staff at an Org too, not Mayo group. The public were leaving to go to Mayo’s group. Seems that you are I experienced the same thing.

  222. Thanks for added comm here, Poet. This fills in what I was not understanding. 🙂

  223. Yes, thanks for clarifying that! I do believe that if the C of S had not fought back and hard at that time there would be no such thing as spiritual counseling, life coaching, and other alternative practices without State licensing requiring medical, psychiatric or psychology training.

    As far as I can tell, this effort has continued as an effort to denounce many such activities as fraudulent and unscientific methods, veiled hypnotism and brainwashing methods. The Talk article on Wikipedia on the Norman Vincent Peale article delves into this operation, and its unsupported criticism based on the concept of cults and mind control, a basis denounced by the APA itself in 1994. It had been spearheaded by Dr. Margaret Singer, according to Wikipedia: “In the 1960s she began to study the nature of cults and mind control and served on the board of the American Family Foundation. She is the author of the book Cults in Our Midst. She gave expert testimony in several cult-related trials … In 1987, as head of the APA taskforce on Deceptive and Indirect Techniques of Persuasion and Control for the American Psychological Association, Singer oversaw the production of a report that was later rejected by the APA’s Board of Social and Ethical Responsibility for Psychology. Thereafter, Singer’s expert testimony in four subsequent cases was not accepted. In 1992 she sued the APA for ‘defamation, frauds, aiding and abetting and conspiracy’, but in 1994 she lost.”

    The important thing to understand about all this, from a viewpoint of a Scientologist attempting to function in mainstream society, is that the operating climate has been downright inimical to independent religious practice, especially with the constant onslaught against new religious movements and alternative methods. It has only been in the last 10 years that the operating climate has become favorable to spiritual and holistic movements and this is directly traceable to the rise of the WWW starting in the late 90s, rapidly growing in influence with the proliferation of sites like WordPress and Blogspot, (both launched in 2003) which made it possible for non-tech savvy individuals to voice their concepts and ideas.

  224. martyrathbun09

    Yeah, and we (in the church at the time) helped see too it that Singer’s report suffered the fate it did.

  225. Brian/Om/Mercury,

    I LOVE it when people say what they really think and mean. Thank you for doing that.

    We seldom wind up where we started. We certainly won’t stay in the same place we are now. Start, change, stop. Start again, change again, stop again. That’s why they call it life.

    I no longer imagine I have “figured it all out.” I doubt any of us have. For me, the TA is still moving.


  226. Absolutely fascinating, Maria. I knew none of that about Margaret Singer’s report on cults. Thank you.

  227. Yes, and I thank you. Very much. I once remarked to a critic of the C of S that “as much as you might dislike the C of S, you should thank God that it is standing in the path of the hurricane, standing against the onslaught against your spiritual freedom.”

    I don’t know if you are aware of this — in 2007, the APA issued a “Resolution on Religious, Religion-Based and/or Religion-Derived Prejudice,” which may have an enormous impact on the changes we are seeing as regards government stance on religious practice. This may be an important factor in the issues to do with Debbie Cook’s case should the court decide to refer to APA positions on the matter.

  228. Thank you Martin for getting it

  229. The price of the bridge is/was an issue. But I think there is an “earlier begining” to the price engram

    I joined the S.O in 1984 and so was never involved in the 60’s and 70’s eras where there appeared to be rapid growth. But one thing that struck me about the FSO, and Scientology of my times, when compared to the references I was reading about the Saint Hill era under Hubbard was training.

    Scientology (not just Flag), by the time I entered in the mid 80’s, was organised to service the “professional PC class”. Whereas during the 1960’s and 1970s those who wanted the bridge had to learn how to audit and then co-audit. During the Saint Hill days there was no sitting by the pool waiting for your Grades or NED sessions. There where SMALL review HGCs but getting up the bridge required people get trained.

    As a result Scientology in 1960’s and 1970’s seemed to churn out to the field PUBLIC auditor (practioners). Whereas from the 80’s forward the Church’s began primarlily sending out to the field PCs (patients).

    This change of emphasis may have been a result of the introduction of NOTs which required Sea Org auditors or possibly the realization that catering to the “professional PC Class” was more lucrative. Whatever it’s reason, the lack of production of competent/idependent auditors being sent into the field will undoubtly mark a period of stagnation for Scientology.

    There are references that talk about “PC Class” causing way more problems in the field than trained auditors. Highly trained auditors are more able to keep the tech on the straight and narrow. Well trained auditors will promote and proliferate. This brings to mind the Hubbard’s “Failure to Train” evals/references and advices.

    I believe that Scientology, as a subject, will expand to the degree it follows the old Acadmey/co-audit (practioner model) as opposed to the HGC (patient,PC model).

  230. Just Me, many a cherished reality/belief has been brought to it’s knees my directly perceiving it’s true nature.
    Its not easy to let go of realities/feelings not based on truth.
    But I’ve aquired a taste for dismantling that which does not serve my liberation from untruths and matter based consciousness.
    I even question my own teacher and somehow I think he loves it. I’m thinking and not an automaton parroting text and dogma.
    When the knowledge is mine, it is mine.

  231. Hayden, I guess that depends on the mentality that is reading it. A good person my see it as metaphor. A power hungry prick may see it as an opportunity. My point is that militarism and indency is a pre Miscavige reality.

  232. martyrathbun09

    Great observation Don.

  233. martyrathbun09

    Yes, I’ve often commented on the fact that I left when it became apparent that the decades of hard won freedoms were being used to enslave.

  234. Anyone who was there then, knows just how big and flowing the Bridge was in those days, unbelievable by todays standards…

    So true. The disastrous crash of ‘bodies in the shop’ is something that I covered in my 1 March 2012 write-up. The website,, has documented the thirty-year crash of training stats in the church on their site, in an article entitled, What Happened To Training?

    In that article, photos of The Auditor mag from the mid-70s and the late 00s are posted side by side, and they clearly show a nearly 95% decline in case and course completions at ASHO over time.

    Interestingly enough, in recent comms I’ve had with some corporate staff and public, they’ve completely not-ised that documentary evidence, arguing that “thousands of people are graduating from the Basics courses”, as if those book study completions are somehow equivalent to graduating new auditors of every Class. And some of those I talked to should know better, because they were there in the 70s!

    I’d also like to echo your comment that the monthly 5% price increases that began in 1976, were one of the most destructive acts in all of Scientology history. As was said upthread, it turned Scientology into a rich man’s religion, and put the full Bridge out of realistic reach for the common working person. That was the very point where I myself began to sink into apathy about the prospect of ever being able to walk the full length of the Bridge this lifetime.

    One of the most exhilarating discoveries I’ve made, since joining the White Hats on the outside, is that prices for auditing and training out here are realistic, AND the best tech terminals on the planet are here to deliver them! That fact has increased my reach for the Bridge again, many-fold.

  235. Yes – the prices were reduced down when the ED was retired. I can’t remember how many percent – I am thinking about 20%.

  236. The price increase also led to a LOT of unusual solutions regarding money. I remember all sorts of scams people had to get $ – my roommate was caught up in a few. Reed Slatkin was the only one who was caught. There were many others promising 10-20% per month returns. There was a huge Pyramid craze for a few months in the early 80s that caught up a few BC students as well as others. This was no slouch of a scheme, either – it was, I think, $5,000 to buy in.

    And, of course, there were all sorts of reg tricks to explain how borrowing money was okay even though LRH forbid it in his treasury policies.

  237. Martin Gibson

    This RFO cycle, just got another layer. First NO DATA from church on the 80’s, except very vague “Ron was researching”, then false, conflicting, speculative and true (usually partial) datums, then my own “assumptions” mixed in with adding things up (still wrong), and then more parts of truth and more parts of truth, approaching THE truth.

    Thanks for inputing that Jim, it fills the vacuum with more of the “air” of the place when Ron was their, what exactly was going on, and (shouldn’t be suprised) how under DM’s watch ever MORE of LRH’s intentions have been degraded.

    All this data and compilation, is so important…
    To some degree a autobiography of those years from the terminals present would be invaluable to actually work out, with multiple viewpoint verification certainty, what occured.

  238. Tony DePhillips

    Just read it. He ain’t your secretary.

  239. I haven’t weighed in on this until now. When Ian published this news letter I was reports officer RTC. I received probably hundreds of copies of it from public. I read it, and it “spun me in” because I agreed with it enough that I required significant “handling” to do my Job. Security vetted all mail going into Int, except my reports traffic because they found it so “enturbulating” that the security chief CSWed me and Jesse Prince, I believe, that their staff did not have to read my stuff, because they had to forward everything to me anyway. The way it was written impinged, polite respectful, thoughtful and humorous. The people doing this in 1985 really are us, they were the pioneers. They even had the first indy day celebration 4th of July 19851

    One of the things that wound up souring my compassion for the indies, is I would get a smaller number of other letters, written to me personally, that did things like “let me tell you a story … insert OT III material … end story … BTW, this was OT III, you are not at that level, so I hope you die of cancer or go crazy”. I lumped all the critics together in my mind to keep doing my job.

    Lots of people comment that it is the internet … the main difference. I agree it is a useful tool, but a double edged sword. Everything written on the internet is viewed instantly by the COS, so to that degree they have unprecedented instant intelligent. The advantage to the critic side is, by the nature of this conflict, the critics, anon, etc. will take heavy casualties, but detailed information on what happened can be read and analyzed by the next wave and successive waves where they get smarter and more adapt. The bottom line is the critic community is willing and able to change and adapt, while today’s COS can’t and won’t in a meaningful way.

    The weakness of the critic community, in part created by the internet is people think sitting on their computer is really doing something, so a massive field of spectators “wheres the popcorn” has grown.

    Though I find it amazing to believe I am about to say this, and I am certain I am going to get flamed for it, I believe the demise of the 80s indies movement came from from two issues, the smaller of which is the arrogance of certain key players, or feelings or demands of entitlement, something I think also exists today in some forms.

    The main one was Hubbard himself. Hubbard was reviewing stats weekly and sending out advices in the early 80s. I am summarizing my opinion, it is just my opinion from my experience in RTC at that time. I think LRH realized he fucked up with the mission holder conferences and handlings and International Finance Police, etc. etc. I think he knew he got bad data and screwed the pooch. Jessie and Vickie Aznaran worked with me a lot, basically telling me that a lot of people got hurt, and we have to make things right, the COS has to become kinder and gentler. This came from Hubbard. I further think he fucked up by not openly saying “this was wrong, we need to revise and change our policies and structures so that this can’t happen again”. Instead he tried to quietly reform the groups that created the chaos and destruction into kinder and gentler attitudes, not limiting their power or basic authoritarian nature, so that after his death, a tyrant with no compassion could exploit the same mechanism.

  240. Tony DePhillips

    Hi Maria,
    I’m late to the party but glad I didn’t miss it!
    That was one of the best posts ever!!
    Marty I wish you could focus one of your posts based on what Maria says here. I think it’s extremely important.

  241. You make some great points, Don – but I think your time sequence is off. By 1980, the 5% PER MONTH price increase had been going on for around 3 years! (caveat: I don’t recall exactly when it ended – I think there was a period where they would stop it, then restart it – perhaps someone with better recall can supply the detail).

    While there may be other issues that had “earlier beginnings”, they were not related to the price engram. The price engram is what CAUSED the transition from the Academy training/co-audit model to the “professional pc” model.

    By the end of Year 1 (fall 1978) of monthly price increases, all training and auditing prices had almost DOUBLED.

    By the end of Year 2 (fall 1979), they had more than TRIPLED.

    The math escalates from there at an ever-increasing pace.

    The writing was on the wall – if you wanted to go up the processing side of the bridge, get your upper levels, you needed to get out there into the “wog world” and start MAKING MONEY.

    If you were working for a field practice or a mission, you were forced by necessity to start focusing on more affluent people – they were the only ones who could afford it. And, without making too much of a generality about it, my own observation was, the richer they were, the less likely they were to become real Scientologists – they tended to be more interested in receiving than giving – more interested in getting processed but not so much trained & interned.

    As with all generalities, there were many exceptions to the above. But a pattern did emerge, a huge shift from what had gone before.

  242. 5. “As it stands now, unless Independent Scientology take care to steer clear from any form of diagnosis of physical or mental health and get themselves set up as religious entities, they are not only at risk from the C of S, they are also at risk from regulations governing health care practitioners.”

    Maria, How can you avoid this when Book One is titled “Dianetics-The Modern Science of Mental Health”?

  243. Thanks,

    The “Professional PCs Route up the Bridge” is what allowed the monopoly on Scientology to occur. Why?……

    Because since the 1980s, straight through today, too large a percentage of current and active auditors were/are staff in the Church. The training co-audit model of Saint Hill was completely opposite – most of the auditors being public and only a handful were staff in the review HGC or Qual. You want the Bridge? you have to go to an Idle Org = monopoly.

    Training is more work and less profitable but if proliferation is goal training is paramount. Well trained tech people promote, and safeguard the tech (as they are today) in a way that non tech trained people can not (this is not meant as a slight).

    The ability to independently train will determine LONGEVITY AND PURITY of Scientology as subject. The volume in which it is done will determine GROWTH. I think training is the hurdle of past and present Independent movements.

  244. Bela, you are right, leaving a mystery behind is not helpful. Anything is better than nothing.

  245. martyrathbun09

    Yes, part of it was the complete decimation of the Field Auditor newtwork.

  246. Hi;

    There was a time in that period where precious stones etc., were accepted as payment instead of cash. Later, Flag missions were sent out to give the stones back and get cash. Silver was another scam when the Hunt Brothers tried to corner the market, a lot of Scinos decided to play that game, and boy, did they get burned. I bet some still have those bags of silver dimes, hoping to get the money back some day.

  247. Martin Gibson
  248. Martin Gibson

    Just adding this to show other data that is available (the internet is a big place, so I added it in for ease of access).
    Here is the step by step of trying to apply policy at that time:
    (Independent OT’s and field – Comm Ev to SP Declare)

  249. Random Stranger

    Starkey is just as criminal as DM as far as I’m concerned if he’s been drawing over six figures per year as pay while regular org staff across the world get paid sometimes fifty cents per week or even nothing at all and have to live on vinegar and wax paper. As far as I’m concerned all the fat cat execs are vampiric overpaid and bloated leeches drawing a bunch of dough and doing nothing in exchange for it, with DM being just the fattest leech of the gluttonous bunch.

  250. There were a lot of schemes. One of them was to get people to buy meters and books and PDCs, and wait a year, and at a price increase of 10% a month, they could sell them for a huge profit, more than double what they paid. Great idea, but when they advertised their stuff, they got busted for undercutting org prices. I know people at AO who bought 10 sets of PDCs, waited a year, tried to sell them, and BANG, into ethics and lower conditions. Same with meters, etc.

    When the prices were reduced, those who had put huge amounts of money on the Bridge but had not yet taken the service, found they could invoice the service at the new price, and so they had money left over in their account. Some had LOTS. Well, scheme number two, spend that money on PDCs and books, and sell them later for a profit. Same result.


  251. Great post. A valuable person. And a fellow drummer. Essay on Management, being based on Communication Axioms and the foundation being ARC, leads us to a greater understanding of Knowledge, Responsibility and Control, which will re establish Theta Comm Lines as you say, Jim. Miscavige mis-use of LRH Policy and his replacement there-of is the alter-is holding that mess in place. Persistence, confront and KRC will eventually reveal the truth. I look forward to contributing to that motion on an increasing flow.

  252. @What is Greatness………. All I can say is……….. Yes

  253. Very interesting. I was not aware of the pricing situation you speak of as it was before my time. The same incremental (percentage based) price increase ocurred in the late 80’s or early 90s; I believe it was also 5% and resulted in the FSO hit 2 million in GI for the first time. It seems to come back to greed . The point when the emphasis turned from helping people to making money; public forced to fixate on making it because the S.O was fixated on collecting it OR NO BRIDGE.

  254. Martin Gibson

    Thirdly a direct link to a pdf download from a guy called Dane Tops, who wrote of the state of affairs in 1982ish and wrote of a “third party” and an “unknown management” working behind the scenes of Int management (he was, I assume, looking for David Miscavige, and had only found the indicators that such a person or people must exist):

  255. Hello Tatiana,

    thank you for this interview.
    I saw lots of interviews you did and I really enjoy them.

    Ian Waxler has a very sane vp on Scientology, the past and present, and I love his final words in this interview.

    Thank you for providing the link.

    And thank you Marty for this run through – as Jim Logan said, this time more things popping up.

  256. Martin Gibson

    This guy is paralleling whats going on in PT but just did not have the comm lines, his “Blog” was a letter. He half nails what has eventually come out on David Miscavige, but assumes there must be someone behind him (no idea if that is even remotely of interest)….

  257. Jim Logan, thank you, thank you, thank you.
    You put it so well.
    I also red your Int Base RD some days ago and I’d like to say, I love the way you’re working.
    Lots of admiration to you,

  258. BTW.
    The internet factor is not minor.
    True: it’s a tool.
    But it’s a very good tool.
    It’s havingness which permitts to experience communication from one viewpoint to another and to many at one time. All over the world and in the same time-continuum.
    If this “channel” is used openly and with the purpose to reveal the truth, it’s very effective.
    Per “The Factors”, the viewpoint is never seen, but its products (dimension points, communications particles etc.).
    In the Internet Age it is very easy to assume a viewpoint and take part in the game and this blog is a great “play ground” where viewpoints from all over the world come together to put data in, to check the data, to blow charge from the time track and in this way helping to audit out the 3D engram.
    It wasn’t possible back then in the 80’s.
    Internet is fast. It makes it possible to “plug in” from (virtually) where ever you are and contribute to the communication.

    Internet is a big factor in running the 3D engram.
    And IMO it’s a big factor why the communication is much stronger and produces much more demage to DMs abuses then in the 80’s.
    And it will be a key factor in the preservation of Standard Technology for future generations.

  259. Consider the Church of Religious Science, based on the Science of the Mind by Earnest Holmes, or the Christian Scientists. Both are thoroughly acknowledged as religions in this day and age and both imply science.

    There is more than one definition of the word science, and the use of science does not necessarily mean that a subject is not religious in its basis.

    It is a difficult situation, and it has been for many decades, but the gist of it, as I understand it is that the medical/psych turf is the diagnosis and cure of physical and mental illness. In fact, the distinction is the subject of discussions by psychology groups, for example: Here’s a couple of quotes:

    “Anyone who is not a member of the College can offer a form of therapy, as long as it doesn’t treat a ‘serious’ disorder, which is the controlled act”

    New controlled act: “Treating, by means of psychotherapy technique, delivered through a therapeutic relationship, of an individual’s serious disorder of thought, cognition, mood, emotional regulation, perception or memory that may seriously impair the individual’s judgement, insight, behaviour, communication or social function”

  260. I was just hoping for a quick answer if Marty knew off of the top of his head. Sorry for asking.

  261. That’s a good one! And I think that another reason is also the AMOUNT of auditing which resulted from those co-audits and especially also from the solo audits like the Clearing Course.
    When people don’t get trained especially on BC they don’t know what the reactive mind really consists of and lack a lot KRC in general.
    The PCs got rid of way more mass/charge on the track with such quantitiy of auditing as it took place in the past before the prices were increased.

  262. Hello Tatiana,

    have seen this interview before and still one of my favorite ones.
    Dan Koon is great.

    Fascinating that Dan and Ian both said that they think that the Church could be reformed, but rather from the outside.
    And this is true for me. Without a strong “Ethics Presense” and Standard Tech outside the Church they will never reform.

    The circumstanses which started to evolve on January 1st 2012 are a new big chance for Scientology.
    I am not part of the freezone and as I come from germany I do not really understand all the different “branches” of the FreeZone (there is lots of stuff which makes it hard to say what exactly the FZ is composed of and the term is somewhat overused).
    But I’d like to thank you for keeping the torch burning for LRH. Spasiba. : – )

    And I also think that the renaming of the “IFA” to “The Association of Professional Independent Scientologists” is a wise move on the checkers board.

  263. I guess that would cause people also to stay away from the independent group today when there are false data spread by that group. The infos on Germany about the missions which should have gone independent at that time was also not true. Did not happen. Maybe they got a bit too enthusiastic about the independent movement declaring to many people and missions independent. If that was read by a person in Germany and that person left church later he would remember that this group lied also in their PR ….
    IMHO it is very important to stick to the truth if people want to trust those outside the church. Nobody wants to jump from one mess of lies and squirrel into the next one…..

  264. Selfgratification on any level is David Miscaviges purpose.

    Nothing wrong with that tough, but Miscavige has decided that it’s okay to feed his selfinfatuation at the cost of the health and happiness of other beings.

  265. I love this post. That’s really what is mainly happening. People get busy with creating a difference in their enviroment and thus ebbing away. Great!

  266. Thank you for sharing! I am so glad you watch and like interviews. I believe they make us more real to each other and so increase the ARC.

    I am not a diplomat at all, and I won’t be able to evaluate for this name-changing move. As for me – I don’t like it. Because it is a change of the significance, the label, that I could not care less about. I think if value significance at all, the right thing would be to stick with an original name “Scientology” in the first place. But If they (IFA) got born as an organization named differently, they should have hold to that name then and make it shine through their actions. In Russian there is a saying, (that you may have similar in English too) that it is not the name makes a person, but the person makes the name.

    If Marty kindly lets me do it, I’ll post here one of my favorite articles of Phil Spickler on that “label changing” subject. So, the following is an article written by Phill Spicler, Class VIII old-time auditor who used to work with LRH in Washington way back. His website (with more articles and video-interviews) is

    “Why Settle For Less?”
    December 10, 1999 by Phil Spickler

    Yes, I’ve been asking myselves this question lately: why settle for
    less? Why settle for mere spiritual beinghood, when for just a little extra you could move up to first class and start saying “I am The Supreme Being!” or “I am A Supreme Being!” which is lightyears bigger and better than simply being a spiritual being.

    Why heck, the A or The Supreme Being cranks out spiritual beings (and everything else) by the carload — no big deal. And with some of the daffy-nitions I’ve been hearing about just what a spiritual being is, I’d have to say, and happily so, that we’ve moved, consciously or otherwise, into the practice of that branch of philosophy known as solipsism. And if you want to know more about that, you’ll have to look it up, ’cause I’m short of electrons, according to the electron-counter on my Mark XXVI Super-Cybernetic Laptop Coffeemaker and Computer.

    In order to push forward this idea and get some folks declaring themselves to be A Supreme Being, or even The Supreme Being, I’m making a one-time Christmas offer in which, for $2.98 United States currency, I’ll provide anyone that so desires with a lovely certificate bearing their name which certifies that they are A (or The) Supreme Being, whichever you request – allow 6 to 8 weeks for delivery. This will be suitable for framing and is something you can easily dazzle your friends and relatives with. Hopefully none of them will have you certified, which is to say declared legally insane in England or committed in good old U.S. of A.
    I’m sure you’ll agree that these make lovely Christmas gifts, even if somewhat belated, and for a dollar less we also have a certificate for just $1.98 that certifies that you ARE a spiritual being. Both these certificates can be copied as many times as you wish and sent to anyone you care to send them to as a final and confirming proof that you are what you say you are.

    I myself recently had my application for admission to the Society for the Preservation and Protection of Spiritual Beings (that’s the SPPSB) refused for having made irreverent remarks about this lovely idea, as well as suggesting that there’s many other states of being that can provide very interesting viewpoints and wonderful experiences that could be just as good as if not better than the one called “state of being a spiritual being.”

    The SPPSB and the few members of that organization that I know remind me a lot of an organization here in the United States called the DAR, which is short for the Daughters of the American Revolution, in which the women in this group can trace their biological lineage back to the 18th Ccentury and the war between the colonies and England. Well, you never saw a more snobbish group of people in your life, just because they would go around saying “I AM a Daughter of the American Revolution!” They went around making people who weren’t like that feel inferior, if you can believe it; and in a very childish but vicious way practiced a very virulent form of racial bigotry and religious intolerance. So I’m extra-happy now that I’m NOT going to be a member of the Society for the Preservation and Protection of Spiritual Beings. It looks like just one more way to substitute a counterfeit beingness for one’s real self, which as I’ve said in the past is something indefinable with words.

    Since this posting is somewhat of an advertisement, I’d also like to say that I’ve started up something called the Soul Shop, and here’s a few of the things that can be obtained from the Shop for modest prices (you can get our catalog upon request). But anyway, for people who are short of thetans, we’ve got a tremendous supply hanging around here, and they range from extra-fine mint condition all the way to ones that absolutely and positively insist that they are the most degraded broken-down thetans that you could find anyplace, anytime.

    We’re also having a special for folks who are sweetness-and-light types who’ve never been able to find in their entity collections or on their time tracks anything that was bad, gruesome, or evil, and so to help this possibiliby along we have packages of entities that are so evil or suppressive that you could hardly believe it; and they range all the way from that level down to packages that contain entities whose greatest crime when going to visit someone’s home for dinner was to see if they could find a piece of silverware that had a smudge on it and gossip about that the next day. As you can see, we have something for everyone, this being just a small sample of what is available at the Soul Shop.

    One of the amusing things that was quite noticeable in whole-track engram running was that human males never seemed to encounter lifetimes where they had been women. It just wasn’t the macho thing to do; kind of too embarrassing to be able to have a bi-sexual viewpoint. Whereas women running whole-track, with a few exceptions, often had little difficulty in finding themselves being men. It’s sort of like women don’t mind wearing pants, but how many men do you know that would find it easy to go around wearing a skirt or a dress?

    Well anyway, to remedy this problem, we have vast sections of time track which you can purchase and install just like any piece of software that will provide you with many, many, many lifetimes of experience and viewpoint as a member of the opposite sex. This is highly to be encouraged if you want to be a well-rounded person with lots of extra understanding.

    As you can see from this, the Soul Shop can provide you with just about anything up to and including a complete and total new case, which once installed should offer you many hours of working like the devil to get this new monkey off your shoulder, not to speak of affording you the opportunity to realize that having a case is at least as important as not having one, and provides you with all the excuses for failure that you could ever hope to devise along the eight dynamics. And believe you me, if you don’t have any excuses for failure, you have ceased to exist in any reality that’s to be found and communicated in any of the three universes (or 300, if you will).

    So don’t forget to write in soon and get your certificates, depending on what you’d like to be. Remember, they’re handsome and suitable for framing. And also let us know how we might serve you and your requirements here at the Soul Shop And as the old saying goes, where case is concerned, maybe it is better to give than receive!

    All the very best,
    A (or The) Supreme Being for as long as it takes to put the period to
    this sentence –
    Flipper Phil.

  267. Tony DePhillips

    Hi Capt. Bob You don’t have to be sorry. Maybe I overreacted. It just sounded a bit out of ARC. It’s not like Marty needs my protection or anything. Lol. The way you asked for the info just pushed a button on me.

  268. Tony DePhillips

    Hi Cat Daddy!! Where you been man??

  269. You’ve hit the core of it. LRH cared. I saw his simple acts of kindness and respect for his fellow man. LRH was, and is, wherever he is now, the greatest being i have met.
    DM does not care.
    LRH actually had an extensive plan in progress to de-oppress the staff and Scientology.
    My opinion is that a major error was made in his moving to the USA. He had a safe point on the Apollo and when he abandoned that he gradually lost control.
    Marty still doesn’t get just how weak Miscavage is. Perhaps because he never met LRH. DM is far too paltry a being to be a why.
    If Marty wants to get open communication from those of us who have continued to practice Scientology for 30 years outside the CofS then he’ll have to realize that he’s got a lot to learn and is in no position to preach to those far more experienced than himself.

  270. fly on the wall | March 21, 2012 at 5:51 pm | Reply

    “You state, “we should have unity not division”. Then don’t sow division.”

    Was not I who stated that :-

    “a) squirreled, and b) denigrated Hubbard and his technology. Third, I found both “a” and “b” to be rampant within the current Freezone.”

    I asked for time place form and event.

    No response.

  271. martyrathbun09

    TP: your ethics are way out.

  272. martyrathbun09

    Ralph, grow up.

  273. yes I understand. I’m pretty cut and dry and I know my comms come across rather straight forward, it’s just the way I am, however in live person comm your button would not have been pushed. Thanks for replying as I went from 😦 to 🙂 pc indicator wise.

  274. Poet,

    “Incidentally, I wasn’t referring to Bela as the SP, and I sincerely hope Bela did not think so.”

    I know that and wasn’t implying you were. In fact, I was agreeing with what you wrote and was just trying to add another piece of data or some viewpoint. Sort of like if you are at war with somebody, and survival is on the line, there are no rules. Somebody wins, somebody loses. I mean like in the actual warfield, you meet the enemy, he has a gun, you have a gun. One person is going to die, you gonna tell him the truth if he asks a certain question.

  275. Hi Bob,
    I heartily agree with your comments, having been in Scientology since 1971. A bit off topic here, but are you Lynn Grant’s brother? She was on staff at Vancouver Mission in the late 70’s or thereabouts (after the Mission crashed when the successful Mission holder was driven out in 1974). I was on staff then too. Lynn was a sharp cookie who got trained on the OEC. She did leave staff and relocated to Ottawa. I know she had mentioned way back that she had a brother who was auditor trained but was no longer active in Scn. If you are Lynn’s brother, please say hi from Bernardette Strudwick, and if she wants to get in touch I’ll send you my e-mail address. (I post here infrequently as Bernie. I am originally from Ottawa though I got into Scientology in Vancouver.)

  276. thank you.

  277. Very nicely said Martin.

    “And any area one refuses to look can conceal data and has power to box one in (or out).”

    How do we highlight that in yellow magic marker. Your reply actually blew another chunk of charge, haha. 🙂

  278. There is a TONE LEVEL change in LRH during the years when you read and listen to the materials from day one. And Thoughtful should look it over.

    The beginning books and tapes are pretty much fun and learning and LRH jokes about, real spirit of play, then it gets serious with KSW, and maybe earlier. Don’t know the time sequence, thus maybe Thoughtful can cine in.

    But I do know this, I really like listening to LRH in the early years. And not being serious and spirit of play works for me. I can not stand the current seriousness of it all. Maybe that is our downfall and maybe people back then felt it and saw it and said screw this shit, thus an indie field in early 1980’s. Don’t know, just some thoughts I see.

  279. Tony DePhillips

    Hey Capt. B.
    Maybe you could do your Indie write-up and post it here and then come to the party in July? It’s a blast!!

  280. OEC/FEBC

    Couple of points. First off, saying that “everyone bought in to GAT” is a wholly inaccurate statement. I know this for a fact because I, and several others who have commented on it on this blog, definitely did not buy into it. Nor did I buy into GAK. Not because I am particularly pure or anything, they simply “would not go down and stay down”.

    Another point.
    Personally I do not feel that “the blind leading the blind” , is totally off the wall. I am an HPCS and I am quite familiar with having my hands tied as a supervisor trying to get students to really think with the data, and being trained to use “supervisor two way comm” which limited one to “What do your materials state?”, “What word or symbol have you not understood?”, and “what word or symbol was misunderstood just before that?”, etc. These things were trained in as ROTE. TR4 was pretty much eliminated from the comm cycle. So you have students who need data in order to evaluate what they are reading and it is being rigidly denied.

    I personally seriously doubt that Ron did not use TR4 himself when training students, and guide the student to the proper understanding and use of the data. Besides that, supervisors did not need to know the subjects they were supervising, in fact Ron suggested it would be better if they didn’t, because that would prevent any chance of altered data entering into the mix.

    So besides there being “the blind”( people who never got to see it done right) leading (training) people without having a clue themselves about the tech they were supervising.

    So I do not see “the blind leading the blind” as a wholly wrong “why”. ( I think it missed the real Why ), but what WAS totally wacked was the “handling”.

    Anyway…. just some thoughts.

    Eric S

  281. thank you. How to help those to see? As you say-

    ” I think people still in have sorely misduplicated their PTS/SP tech & the Chart of Human Evaluation. ”

    You got an answer?

  282. martyrathbun09

    Isn’t it implied, PTS/SP tech and SOS?

  283. OMG! I wish there were “Like” buttons for times like this when I’m laughing too hard to type.

  284. If they do still have those bags of silver dimes, they are friggin’ rich now. Silver has skyrocketed.

  285. Martin Gibson

    You’re welcome. Its nice to be understood.
    I recently went through a lecture called “Auditor Wisdom” (Class 0), and it talks about “cutting theta-lines”.
    I am even more aware of how real affinity, communication and REALITY work together.
    “Keepin’ it real”. haha

  286. Hi Bernie;

    Thank you for jumping in and introducing yourself!

    Yes, Lynn is my sister. Send my your email and I can forward your address to her.

  287. Martin Gibson

    Thats great, and I get a win on my comm cycle!

  288. Hello,

    Tatiana: “I am not a diplomat at all, and I won’t be able to evaluate for this name-changing move. As for me – I don’t like it. Because it is a change of the significance, the label, that I could not care less about. I think if value significance at all, the right thing would be to stick with an original name “Scientology” in the first place. But If they (IFA) got born as an organization named differently, they should have hold to that name then and make it shine through their actions. In Russian there is a saying, that it is not the name makes a person, but the person makes the name. “

    I got your point, Tatiana.
    However, even LRH changed names of assosiations and foundations often when times changed.
    I personally think that the phrasing “independant Scientologist” will create more interest in the future.
    And the newsletters from Ian Waxler show me that this phrasing was used way back in the 80s, too.
    I may be not so well informed but was the term FreeZone not associated with the movement of Capt. Bill in the first place? And if so, then the FreeZone represents a “branch” of Independent Scientologists only?
    Maybe the term was adopted by other movements and efforts to keep Scientology alive outside the church – I don’t know the track, as I said above: it’s not easy for me to distinguish what exactly the freezone IS.
    But I have seen a lot of interviews from Independent Scientologists who are associated with the “IFA”. And I think the most of them are very dedicated to deliver Standard Tech and give their power to the cause.
    That’s why in my own view, the name is less important as the performance (of the cycle of action) and if the name change will result in more interest and more well skilled auditors and standard tech delivered I would be very, very glad.
    And honestly, I can’t stick by a name I have an MU. (And I am sure I am not the only one who has a misunderstood of the term FreeZone, free zone, fz et al.) It’s much easier to contribute to things one can understand – and “The Association of Professional Independent Scientologists” is well understood.

    All best to you,

  289. Freedom Fighter

    WOW! WOW! WOW! I can’t get through more than a paragraph at a time of the Dane Tops letter without having to step away from the computer and let the blowdowns occur!! I got in during the late ’80s after much of this had occured and after much of this attutude was in place. I could never figure out why what much of what I was studying wasn’t visible within the organizations. This explains a LOT! Thanks for posting it.!!

  290. Hello SKM (Sorry, but I do not recognize you under this name initials that remains to me an MU 🙂 ),

    Talking about the word “Freezone” – it did not make much sense to me ether. It calls to associations with “Free stuff” which usually turns out to be an unwanted crap. “Free” as a concept of boundary-less freedom scares by implying free-to-alter-the-tech and does not quite fit with a second part “zone”, which is a marked by boundaries space. “Free” in a sense of freedom from say Church, something that is not a church of S. is also not a good way to define a group as an opposite of another, like defying cats as animals that are not dogs.
    I agree with you that recognizing fact of self-naming as “freezoners” to bee a mistake and correcting it back closer to original “Scientologists” is a smart move.

    I wonder, how would the world be without all the labels, that are trying to echo the essence of the origin in order to keep it in PT by mirroring. What if we could cut all the traces of lying representations, that mimicry the original actually existing in a moment of been created and so truth then, with higher or less degree of lying by reflecting through the time the origin itself. (I hate English, or, well, my disability to use it, I can’t stand how what I think comes out in a sentence of the language I have not mastered).

    I just do not like the names, the labels, the signs and all that secondary significance trash. I think labeling with a sign or name is a way of not creating it, but using a surrogate dead false replacement. I wish all the labels one day disappear with all the languages – written and spoken together. And we all are left in a clean world of beautiful silence where in order to share we’d have to actually create the idea itself, and in order to perceive we would have to be able to resonate to ideas and instead of duplicating them, simply include them into our own universe – share. No vias needed.

    Back to IFA my point was that it is not name (sign, label), that communicates, but actions, intentions and results. Unless some fools are judging by names, God help them! 🙂

  291. There is an old Russian joke: “If on the cage with tiger is written “the bear” – do not believe your eyes!”
    Or we can say: “If in the building named “Scientology Church” you see David Miscavige – do not believe your eyes!”

  292. Hi Brian,
    I got in around the time you write about and totally understand where you are coming from. Thank you for telling us what happened to Likki. I suspected as much, knowing how some PCs have been treated in the past. She deserved a lot better and I hope that, wherever she is, she is fareing well.

    By now you should have received a remorseful and apolgetic email from “Al” Bornstein, now known as Kate Bornstein, a regular commenter at Tony Ortega’s Village Voice Blog, Runnin Scared. I wrote about your comment here, hoping she would contact you, and she did.

  293. To illustrate you talk about AAC I’d like to present this video:

  294. I think they were paying up to 400 bucks an ounce back then. Has silver gone that high?

  295. Hello Tatiana,
    I agree with you.
    Names are of secondary importance. Symbols are just symbols.

    And I have the same problem with the english language as you. I am sure it’s even worse. But I like to learn more and more english as it is the language of Source Materials (and I have seen lots of translation crap, at least in the german language).

    FreeZone: when I first came across the term “freezone” talking to a fellow church Scientologist I thought that the free zone is a “management free” zone (free of management, so to speak).

    “I agree with you that recognizing fact of self-naming as “freezoners” to bee a mistake and correcting it back closer to original “Scientologists” is a smart move. “

    SKM could mean = Smart Kazakh Monk, no? 🙂 (joke)


  296. I know another russian joke:
    There was a old lady who worked all her life in the Samovar Factory. When she finally went into pension, she was asked if she has built a samovar for herself. She replied “I tried really hard, but anytime I finished I got a Kalashnikov.”

    This reminds me of Scientologists thinking they are producing a saner world whereas what they actually do is feeding King Daves Empire of Stupidity.

  297. Oups, yes. I forgot to TR2 the quotation above.
    Thank you.

    BTW. Would you mind if I translate some of your Interviews (a selection) into german for the german Independents Blog? (With subtitles to the original footage.)
    My time is very limited at the moment but there are important interviews and persons I would like to make available to the german Scientologists.

    Kind regards,

  298. Martin Gibson

    Thats GREAT, so glad it did some “magic”!!! And I love the ack on finding it and posting it here.
    I does capture the “atmosphere” of the time, that same atmosphere that confuses, stuns and numbs one now. He struck the hammer hard onto the heaad of that nail.

  299. Hi;

    I hope you get this. Lynn would very much like to get in comm with you. You can email me at, and I will send you her email address.

  300. Hi Bob,
    Thanks! If she likes, she can reach me at:
    P.S. Nice to meet you Bob!

  301. Thanks Bela, very interesting in many aspects. Fills in the missing Reality from back then. Who knows what Myriam would have done if the contact would have worked and she would have gotten these data. Wonderful people. Thanks.

  302. Hello SKM, (ScientologyKnowledgeMaster :))
    Definitely yes, please, translate as many videos as you can, making them available for as many people as possible.


  303. Sorry, should have read “Tatjana” above, not “Bela”.

  304. Tatiana, looks like the AAC was concentrating on the levels of Production and Review (Div 4/5). From the data of this film it was not visible how they handled Existence/Conditions (Div 7) and Perception (Div1-Dept.3). From what I got they lost on the Legal ground. They seem to have used PTS/SP-tech on individual basis. There are not much signs visible to me that they pulled the cover on the O/Ws and crimes that were poisoning the group. This would be one difference to the movement of today. Thanks again for the film.

  305. Hello Worsel,
    It seems to me that AAC would have survived in its form if left alone by the church. But I see them a bit like the hippies in 60th against the government – naive in relying on love only in this cruel world, infiltrated and killed as a movement. AAC members were way ahead of time, the world was not clean enough for that center to survive.
    On the other hand AAC ceased to exist as a network and the org, but it’s members go on delivering. Braked into pieces it did not dye out, the auditor you see on that video continue auditing.
    I think it went out of view, not out of existence.

  306. Frank Davis

    When I left in 1986, two weeks after LRH passed I did not then justify to anyone, then or now. If one is doing the right thing one does not NEED or HAVE to justify. Only those in doubts or trying to force others to accept their viewpoint do that. And leaving the RTC COS had nothing from anyone I knew at that time with leaving LRH. For all practical purposes he was completely off the lines and no known way to reach him. It had to do with the Bridge and prices and seeing those who left through routing forms got visits to their homes to take back their meters and materials, so that was a losing game if one played their game. And then got the entheta.

    Late 60s the church was shrinking due to Dianetics being done just for Practice Auditing (I still have my course pack for that version of Dianetics) and LOADS of Quicky Grades and OT Levels. The COS shrank. It started back up hill in 1970. Expanded Grades, NEW HSDC in 1969 and lots of co-audits.I loved that time period. And next year at St Hill was great and the SHSBC was all and more than I expected!

    But even then..through the rest of the 70s, and till we left in 1986, it always rollercoasted. Efven before David Miscavaige and the many others who have tried to financially gain from it or unmock it.

    But my main point is no one I knew felt they needed to give the , as you say, Kool Aid drinkers and RTC henchmen justifiers for why we were leaving. At the time we left, we were part of a group of 21 tech trained former staff, all of whom were public when we left. No pressure was being put on anyone to Declare themselves. Each of us chooses how we do, which is what it should be. Main thing is NONE of us gave up LRH or the use of the tech.And check your history as there were times the price increases were 10% a month. go back through the old promo and mags, you will see.

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