Independents, now and then

Thanks for the responses to my post of 20 March, Council for Spiritual Integrity.   A lot of the initial information shared serves to confirm datums that I have already found to be true and have based my actions over the past three years upon.  Among them:

1. The eighties leaders were different than current leaders in that the former ultimately were bought.  I knew from the outset that David Miscavige was acutely aware of the fact that most everybody had a price.  So much so that his ENTIRE, blanket strategy for dealing with exposure of his crimes can be summed up in two parts: a) Leverage: created by intelligence, black PR, and legal to put the target into a more amenable frame of mind, followed by b) buy off, and that means literally – nobody settles with David Miscavige whom Miscavige does not own to one degree or another.

That is one reason why I have stayed true from the beginning to the vow never to accept money from anyone that carries with it any attempt to influence my direction or behavior.  I have turned down large sums of money that have been offered to get me to go in certain directions; and I will continue to refuse such in the future.  People donate when they see fit – presumably by their following the chronicle of where I am going as memorialized on this blog.  Monique can attest to the trend – and how no matter how lean things become on this end, I have not and will not pander or attempt to please to make a living – to me that is not living; that is the route to dying.

2.  Among today’s crew we have a number of folks with a far higher confront of evil and experiential track on how to deal with it.

While I am studying all this in far more depth and intend to share more of my findings, one  more recently recognized truth can be added.

3.  The pioneers of the past were far more invested in terms of active involvement.  They met,they rallied, they demonstrated, they worked hard (far more than is necessary now with the internet) to collect information and get it published and distributed.  Almost perhaps to a fault.  Many critical ones devoted so much time and effort to the cause that they were forced out of the game entirely by financial necessity.

I have noted a number of times over the past couple years that much of what I do I consider to be “ethics” actions; and that we as a movement are following the Scientology sequence of ethics, tech, admin.   I find it to be necessary in order to assure that tech and admin can go in.  That is why when engaged in ethics activities I continually promote that others not directly involved get real busy with tech and admin; because a) that is the only reason for the sacrifices in the ethics band – to make it possible to get tech in, and b) enough proliferation of tech will be the final ethics nail allowing a move into the admin band.

The past few months have been almost completely consumed with activities falling into the ethics band.  The amount of kicking and screaming from the ethics-challenged beast has been horrifying during this period.

I have likened the struggle with the Corporate Scientology organization to the American civil rights struggle and the South African civil rights movement.  On the latter, I have noted that the most effective measure in ending appartheid was making those who profited from it no longer profit from it. And that was accomplished by making those who supported the profiteers understand they ultimately empowered the slavoracy; and by persistent exposure of that empowerment made those ultimately supporting the slave-masters no longer support them.

I think on this score, we can learn from the pioneers; both of the civil rights movements and of the earlier Independent movement. I think we ought to learn from them a higher level of personal involvement.  I am asking people to step up to make it uncomfortable on those who are perpetuating Miscavige’s character assassination network.  I am not suggesting in the slightest that anyone engage in anything resembling harassment, Corporate Scientology style or otherwise.  I am suggesting that the likes of Joel Phillips, John Allender, Ed Bryan, Joanne Wheaton, Norman Bates (whatever his real last name is), Iz Chait, Dave Lublow, and other known agents of Corporate Scientology’s domestic terrorist network be called to account for their months and years of domestic terrorist work.

Miscavige, being the 1.1 coward that he is, has polluted the internet and American neighborhoods by having OSA volunteers and PIs serve as an “arm’s length” domestic terrorist network.  Please do what you can to help disinfect this sickness with sunshine.

Get hold of Steve and/or Karen with your website building skills, your ability to  investigate and inform those who ought to know about the domestic terror network and its actors.

A wise man once noted that if one knows of out ethics and doesn’t do anything about it, after a while of doing nothing about it he becomes an accomplice.

213 responses to “Independents, now and then

  1. Marty I came to the same conclusion last night after reading your post and the comments on Joel Philips. There are not that many public Scientologists and Staff who are directly involved with the RCS Internet activities. The tech savy WWP people can identify any IP addresses, accounts and people and the ethics savy independents can push the right buttons that would make these people really think about what they are doing. Miscavige has no conscience left he is a whole track SP. His enablers need to feel the heat and realize that miscavige will not protect them after they become too much of a problem for him. In fact he will blame everything on them.
    Message to those who help Miscavige. You don’t have to do it. You can always just fade away from your involvement.

  2. Freedom Fighter

    Martin Gibson posted the following letter in the comments of that blog post. Reposting it here as the data contained in it blew a TON of charge for me and will hopefully do the same for any of you who take the time to read it. It was written in 1982 and explains a LOT. Thanks, again, Martin, for posting it.

  3. A rampant hate site on Marty is hosted by a company called, oddly enough; Antisocial Media, LLC. Apparently also heavily censored so no truth or conflicting opine whatsoever gets through… to wit, at the bottom of the page: “Bad Behavior has blocked 1778 access attempts in the last 7 days.” “Copyright © 2012 Mark “Marty” Rathbun Blog All rights reserved Producer designed by”

  4. ” You assist an evil system most effectively by obeying it’s orders and decrees. An evil system never deserves such allegience. Allegience to it means partaking of the evil. A good person will resist an evil system with her or her whole soul.” M.K. Gandi

    David Miscavige Inc. is an evil system. If people in India who had no access to a tr’s course or the internet or telephones or clearing and very little resources, could shake Great Britian off their back and bring an entire civilization out of slavery, we can too.

    Hubbard says the common denominator between all losers is incorrect estimation of force. I urge everyone here to take their next bridge step either side without delay and to push back against personal suppression on your lines while going OT. This is the correct estimation of force.

    And please continue the support to Marty who has taken the brunt
    of this suppression, and all the while been the most effective at getting the truth of the matter to the table so we can KNOW.

  5. martyrathbun09

    Thanks – noted. Slightly edited so as not to promote more hits on it.

  6. Norman “Bates”. That works for me! Very funny.

  7. I googled “Marty Rathbun” and “Mike Rinder” some time ago and came up with many, many false attack sites for each. Some were the exactly the same site with an slightly different url. I still have the list somewhere. This is a clear abuse of the freedoms that the Internet provides. It is immoral and demonstrates a level of malicious intent that continues to boggle my mind.

    I think that savvy Internet users are quick to spot these fake sites. Less savvy users may be snowed at first, but the claims made are so outrageous and that the level of traffic to Marty’s true site keeps it at the top of the Google offerings, researchers will eventually find their way.

    Again, I think that this clear demonstration of the lack of moral fortitude only exposes the shameful behavior that the Church of Scientology is involved in.

  8. tonydephillips

    Your integrity is truly mind boggling.
    Thanks for all you do and who you are.

  9. Hi Marty;

    Who do you consider the ’80s leaders to be?

  10. Should read, “his or her whole soul.” Sorry 🙂

  11. martyrathbun09

    David Mayo.

  12. david mayo is a soulless man. He sold his soul to the devil. It is better to be some years in prision as nelson mandela did instead of drinking margaritas in Hawai.

  13. Marty,
    I read your site everyday and get TA . That is good things that have been stalled or in Danger undo themselves to resolution for that desired product
    or result. Much Higher level of ARC in my LIfe,more optomistic outlook.
    My understanding of David Miscavige is zooming higher proportionately.
    Thinking dont have to be Albert Enstien or Sherlock Holmes to connect the Dots.

    Different line, I know one of those on your list, worked for him and eventually figured this guy out and quit. Things got enormously better. As for Norman Bates, Ah MMMMM, it takes all kinds,, needs to get a real job.

  14. Marty, I agree with you, the history is ‘history and now we are in an era where communication can’ reach every corner of the planet in one click.
    Being an example in everyday life and ‘the best way to disseminate Scientology.
    See you soon !
    Francesco Minelli

  15. civilrightsmama

    I am a new commenter here, although not a new reader, and I’ve never been a Scientologist, Independent or otherwise. So, there is a good chance that I’m misinterpreting part of your post.

    I spent a long time working at a civil rights organization and am somewhat of an expert on the Civil Rights Movement’s history. I’ve been struck by the parallels you seek to draw between the “Independence movement” and the Civil Rights Movement. What stikes me immediately as incongruent in this post is the idea that we (using “we” broadly here to describe those who are concerned about the abuses committed by the corporate Church) should direct our attention to lesser figures who undertake negative work on behalf of the corporate Church.

    While the federal government, and many state and locale agencies, certainly carried out “black ops” against the Movement’s leaders, the Movement’s leadership rarely, if ever, undertood efforts aimed against segregationists. Movement leaders believed (and ultimately were proved right) that, by taking the higher ground — by waging a social movement based on principles, rather than against specific people — the ultimate integrationist aims could be best achieved. Even in the now-famous (and then much-ignored) “Letter from a Birmingham Jail, clearly directly at apathy among white clergy, Rev. Dr. King called upon principles of faith and human dignity to build his case. Yes, he mentions Bull Connor — whom, if one was trying to draw a parallel, one might say was the “David Miscavage” of Birmingham — who through words and actions sought to destroy and set the flames of segregationist hate alive, releasing dogs and firehoses upon schoolchildren who dared to demand their equal rights and then carted them by the hundreds to jail, all the while turning a blind eye to the bombs that exploded in black neighborhoods and black churches across the city. The others King names in that letter are religious leaders who had, at that point, stood up for justice and equality. Stood up for what was right. He didn’t — and the Movement as a whole — never sought to malign or cut down. They sought to build across. Build up. Build something better. For all of us — even those who once stood with rifles, nooses or Klansmen’s hoods.

    In doing so, they set an example for the world. I dare say that’s an example we might contemplate here.

  16. martyrathbun09

    That is a beautiful rendition of the establishment version of history. Except that it is rather inapt here. I am not talking about “segregationists”: I am talking about agents of a corporation that are doing that corporations’ bidding so as to shield the organization from responsibility for taking out those insisting upon and making change. What role do you believe Malcolm X played in the achievement of Dr King’s aims? How about the NAACP and boycotts? But I will grant you this based on lack of action and response, you may very well be right about the my mistake in invoking the civil rights movement.

  17. FF and Martin,
    David Miscavige SPECIALIZES in 3P. If you’ve search this blog you’ll see several OSA Ops that do almost nothing but engender strife with Third Party.

    The Suppressive Person scatters attention with generalities so as to avoid detection. Miscavige makes the entheta seem to be all over the place, when in fact he is the prime source, and using restimulation of others in his design to mask that source.

    He uses “plants” in the field to stir it up.

    The “hidden” 3P is not hidden. It IS David Miscavige. He played BOTH sides agin the other.

  18. civilrightsmama

    Malcom X was as important as King in the Movement’s ultimate success — and that his conversation on the hajj is a vital part of his story that is often overlooked. I’d also say that, if both of them had lived, we’d likely need Malcolm now more than King. (Integration doesn’t eliminate racism. And, we’re not actually integrated. Anyway …)

    If you’re saying we should choose the earlier X’s “by any means necessary” stance, I just pause and ask whether that ultimately makes us more like DM than not.

  19. What is Greatness

    What I believe is noteworthy in this context, is that there is a Martin Luther King Day, but no Malcolm X Day. There thousands of streets named after MLK but none after Malcolm X. One could go on.

    The point I believe here is that mankind recognizes truth and theta when lived by leaders taking the high ground who walked the talk. Ultimately that is what appeals to human nature and those then are people mankind looks up to and accepts as leaders. They do lead one up higher.

    Mother Therese of course is another such example. As of course is the Dalai Lama.

    People who bully, who don’t grant beingness, but denigrate and use their bullhorn to put others down — they come and go and are soon forgotten.


  20. I do not think david mayo has sold his soul to the devil, I think he decided to live his life after all fair game received.

  21. Thanks for Marty and others for this site. Danish Television showed this week BBC program with Marty and Mike. It first hurted me, because it had so much evil, which had happened over there, not here. It is sad to hear about those things as here we have good LRH kindergardens, schools, orgs. The staff is uptone and it is nice to go into the org. Of course the org has shrinken but not recently. In 1983 or 1984 DK F went down from 65 staff to 30 staff in one day. A mission came in and ordered staff members to start shouting, in the name of control. Dane Tops article was really good!

  22. martyrathbun09

    And we don’t recognize Thomas Paine while we as much as worship Washington and Jefferson (though the latter would be nothing but unsuccessful slaveholders without Paine).

  23. I don’t know how anyone could read Martin Gibson’s letter without being
    profoundly affected by it. I was.

  24. martyrathbun09

    I agree with your assessment of today wholeheartedly. No, not “by any means necessary” at all. I do think though that his lessons on Power only understanding Power and that trying to communicate to Power by handing them daisies is as absurd as trying to talk to a person who only speaks Chinese in Italian. Ironically, David Miscavige knows perfectly well what I am talking about. That is why for two years now he has been trying to destroy me personally by any means necessary.

  25. Despite knowing this may be taken as an alarmist question, I still want to ask: What is DM’s status re weapons or weaponry?

    I know that there were arms at Int (from what I have been told) including the sentry on the hill with a rifle. Are there other weapons?

    And with the $1 billion or so at his disposal, does DM have any black market nukes, fissionable material, or even radioactive material to make a dirty bomb?

    I’m not saying I have any intuition that he would use such things. But if he truly is a “whole track SP” as stated above, or as others have commented, someone who is stuck in R6 (dramatization and valence), then …?

  26. Bill Ryan’s interview with “Dane Tops” is here:

    Fascinating reading

  27. Takes a Third Dynamic auditor, not a ladyfinger.

  28. Understood.

  29. In my opinion, based on what I’ve read about Mr. Mayo, seen in his videos, and witnessed in his “disappearance”, he was not willing, from the get go, to take FULL responsibility for the “boots in the sky” that where sitting there in front of him (indeed, they sit there for each of us and IF we are, each of us, to really win at this whole game of the Dynamics, then embracing those boots and factually reaching out in ever increasing KRC to those Dynamics is the “way out” of those Dynamics).

    He got his ass kicked. Nothing wrong with a good ass kicking, BUT, having had it kicked you gotta settle out, lick the wounds, and then gain more KRC from that experience and by further edification (study, auditing, application of oneself to gaining the ARC/KRC needed to best what whooped you) you need to come back and get the better of that which kicked your butt.

    Instead, Mr. Mayo “took the money” and went down the chute, backing away from the Dynamics. That’s not a successful route. He is no doubt, feeling that spiral down the Know to Mystery Scale.

    It is my hope to see him climb back up and out. Ain’t but one way out baby.

  30. Thanks for the quote of Mahatma Ghandi.
    Beautiful. Powerful.

  31. Hi All,
    I was just reading Unfiltered news and came across a beautiful analogy relating the current CO$ being a cruse ship taken over by pirates! That’s what we really have here. The subject of Scientology was something that we all loved, got benefit from and helped others with. It’s no longer a cruse ship catering to the needs of the guests. It was commandeered by Black Bart and his crew of thugs and is now just a big boat running down any survivors and creating mayhem in it’s path.

  32. The irony of these sites is that the majority of persons that view them are those who are starting to wake up. In a way it’s a bit of a test… Buy the lies and one might conclude they deserve to carry on with their head in the sand… See it for what it is and they clearly are on the path to reality.

    I was tempted to comment on the previous blog post… Seems some readers have a somewhat fuzzy view of the story that is Scientology to date.

    To those that are concerned about Marty’s take on Mr. Phillips, et all I would say two things;

    Who’s shoes have you walked in?

    What would a wise man do?

  33. martyrathbun09

    Spoken by a wise man.

  34. No one is advocating unethical means. We just want to call the spade a spade and hold up a mirror to these people so they can possibly see what they are doing. It is ultimately for their benefit as well. The sooner they stop the less chance some of them will end up in jail or live the rest of their life in misery because everybody will shun them for what they have done. They live in a bubble and need help. The medicine will tase bad but will save them.

  35. +1
    He lost his viewpoint after being harrassed and being run reversed SCN on him for too long.
    I consider him a great tech terminal, but he made a big mistake.
    Marty is right, ethics must be put in before tech can go in.
    David Mayo underestimated the power of the counter intentions.

    Unfortunatly some tech is lost because bulletins where removed after Mayo was declared.
    Some previously released Bulletins about TRs, some of them never replaced accordingly.

  36. Freedom Fighter

    Jim, I agree. My thought as I was reading this was that DM was the 3P for sure. That aside, the rest of the article profoundly filled in the gaps for me.

  37. Marty, I wish you well in however you go forward and in how others choose to coalesce and do the Hubbard therapy and “upper levels” tech on themselves and others. I hope you find our goals and are happy.

    I’m most majorly impressed with your free communication, and thank goodness for the people who made the internet, and made it easy for like minded people to support each other in whatever happiness they together find in what they do.

    Hubbard’s writings are still so on my brain, that those writings won’t likely ever leave my brain.

    If what Ron wrote is what Ron wanted, taking into consideration after close examination “how Ron worked” (by study of what Ron wrote, and to me his LRH ED Series writings are some of his most heartfelt public feelings for those that followed him), I’m eternally open minded and wish you continue helping people come undone from any twisted predicaments they’ve found themselves in.

    Your blog is a historical landmark, and I love seeing the views of people who post here.

    Even though not a Sicentologist, I wish for the freezone/independents to carry on in their efforts to to do the best in Hubbard’s legacy.

    That independents even speak freely publicly, is so the right thing, so thankyou all.

    Chuck Beatty
    ex Sea Org (1975-2003)

  38. “Joel Phillips, John Allender, Ed Bryan, Joanne Wheaton, Norman Bates (whatever his real last name is), Iz Chait, Dave Lublow, ”

    And a bunch of lawyers

  39. One thing David Miscavige still wants to learn is that by exerting pressure to make people toe the line, he weakens those. Money motivation is low and actually weakens a person, as it twists integrity. By dishing out lies he weakens those who still put trust in his propaganda. It renders those vulnerable. Therefore his proceeding lacks strategic quality, no matter how intelligent it may seem at a superficial look, there is but one direction for a conglomerate of people who get more and more weakened and confused. It will go down.
    On the other side, Integrity looks to me to be a common denominator in the rows of the Indies – alike, in those of the early 80’s as well in those of 2012. Common purpose to help elicits co-operation and a team forms that is immune to pressure and money. And resources have changed. Experience is a resource as well.
    Therefore, there is only one station the rails head to. there is no other way the train will or can go: David Miscavige will go down. And we will go up a little higher.
    Thanks, Marty, for this subject. And thanks to all who contributed by making comments or just by reading and thinking about it.

  40. tonydephillips

    Hi Jim.
    Maybe its true what you say about David Mayo.
    The man took an enormous amount of responsibility. Maybe he did make a wrong decision but I think we all owe him some gratitude. I personally respect the man from what I know of him.

  41. I do believe in the big themes of what all splinter Scientologists have done for decades. (I like Mayo, I like Ken Urquhart, I like Ian Waxler, I like the late Phil Spickler and the late John Masters and the late Horner, etc. (in the sense that they all retained their own viewpoints, and stood up for themselves).

    As a retired Hubbard “admin nerd” I wish all Hubbard splinter personnel well, and if you can have some influence on official Scientology, then my hat’s off to all of you..

    Good for you all!

    Thankhyou Marty for reaching out wider!

    One human pluspoint of a religion, is that the 3d of a religion DO help their group.

    I hope you all help each other, and I hope someday you might help reform official Scientology.

  42. I agree with Marty, you don’t hand flowers to a person wanting to kill you. My take on it is, when you have to use force to protect the innocent, you don’t at the same time have to hate the target of your force. Acting from a calm center, while taking down oppression and tyrants is a sign of greatness and true power. It’s easy to hate, not so easy to “love despite all provocations to do otherwise”.
    Unconditional love in my view is a very misunderstood concept and doesn’t mean that you never use force. It means you don’t have to hate while acting to protect.

  43. BTW Marty, in a previous post I stated that I was physically abused in the Sea Org in the early seventies. Well, that person was contacted by someone reading or in the blog. And that person emailed me to apologize for that time.
    I almost cried.

  44. What is Greatness

    There are philosophers and there are leaders. Some are both. Scientology most certainly had its philosopher, Mr. Hubbard.

    Not all of us are leaders and many of us need guidance.

    Where are the Scientology leaders who do not just preach the basics of truth, as Hubbard so skillfully communicated them, but actually live them — all of them?

    Where are the those who lead by example?

    As King did, as Therese did, as Sri Aurobindo did, as the Dalai Lama does as Chögyal Namkhai Norbu does.

    Where are they?

    Because that is what Scientology needs, for it to survive AND expand.

  45. Thank you, thank you, thank you Freedom Fighter and Marty for making the link of “The Dane Top Letter” available. It is invaluable!
    It cleared up so much in my search of what happened. It can also be applied today as well.

  46. Random Stranger


    1) Sling shot

    2) Pea shooter

    3) Stick

    4) Rock

    5) Switchblade

    6) Pistol

    7) Fist

    8) Foot

    9) Mouth

    10) Dog

    11) Lackeys

    12) Fingers

    13) Knees

    14) Firecrackers

    15) Chinese handcuffs

    16) Bolo

    17) Spear

    18) Bow and arrow

    19) Rifle

    20) Shotgun

    22) Tom Cruise

    23) Lou

    24) Lawyers

    25) Nation of Islam

    26) Shinto warriors

    27) Money

    28) Laser stare

    29) Battle axe

    30) Catapault

    31) Blow gun

    32) Deringer

    33) Goldenrod

    34) BB gun

    35) Sword

    36) Tire iron

    37) Brass knuckles

    38) Whip

    39) Taser

    40) Chinese stars

    41) Bear trap

    42) Mouse trap

    43) Theta trap

    44) Hypnotism

    45) Sound

    46) Threats

    47) The Hole

    48) PR

    49) Food

    50) Sleep

  47. I believe you have a very limited view of Malcolm X and his influence on the civil rights movement.

    And while the Dalai Lama is respected world wide – sadly as a leader he’s been unable to convince young Tibetan monks NOT to set themselves on fire in protest of China.

    In other words — our leaders — even the top notch ones that we all admire are limited as they are ultimately still a human being.

    How many people in India started to give more to the poor because of Mother Therese’s example. Hmmm — still LOTS of poverty over there.

    Leadership is IMHO measured not be their inspiration but by the actions of OTHERS taken because of their inspiration.


  48. Martin Gibson

    Glad it was effective. Really happy my intention to help created a circumstance that some charge could be converted back to free-theta (means clear and calm thinking, as opposed to confusion, upset, obsession with, blind hatred etc).
    And you’re welcome.
    My opinion on the differences is:
    The major (or only) difference is the internet, these days speed of particle flow is close to light speed, carrier waves (through email, facebook friendships et al.) can be set up so routing can occur simultaneously and instantaneously. Its a criss-crossing web that can trap that mad man.
    A lesson learned:
    Miscavige was a hidden source, then he was under-estimated and he struck effective blows in the comm-lag. Comm-lag has reduced, its still there though. The process is running better, but must continue, Miscavige is “bank”, the process is “biting”, Marty, Mike, Steve, Dan, Debbie et al are weathering the storms and keeping the “pc” in session, staying in comm, sticking to the process. Perhaps if the people in the early 80’s had the ARC the internet permits, they could have stuck to the “process” better. Together we can do more, auditor + pc.

    The difference: Internet.
    Lesson: “Don’t take a knife to a gun fight”

  49. The same old LDW

    Not to mention looting, plundering and pillaging as they go!

  50. Tom Gallagher

    Marty and friends,

    As this situation continues to be played out, a Thomas Paine quote comes to mind:

    “It is not a field of a few acres of ground, but a cause, that we are defending, and whether we defeat the enemy in one battle, or by degrees, the consequences will be the same.” – The American Crisis, No. 4, September 12, 1777

    It’s my viewpoint that the war launched by POB, the whole-track sociopath who’s in-charge, has been won by the side of goodness and truth.

    It’s all now a matter of time, itself, catching up.

    For a final though:

    “The times that tried men’s souls are over – and the greatest and completest revolution the world ever knew, gloriously and happily accomplished.” – The American Crisis, No. 13, April 19, 1783

    Aren’t we technically and actually in a mop-up operation at this point?

    Deservedly, take a win.

  51. You’re right, Jim.
    And I too hope that he will climb back up one day.
    But little do I know what really happened to him.
    At some point he was unable to decide what is black and what is white, or so it seems. Must have been some heavy enturbulation – and without the willingness to use some ethics on himself and for the benefit of all life there will be no positive change.
    What he really bought in is the “dangerous environment”.

  52. “I knew from the outset that David Miscavige was acutely aware of the fact that most everybody had a price.” That price is you David, just as the elimination of Hitler was crucial to man’s continued survival, the elimination of you David is likewise.

    Just as David Mis. once proclaimed you Marty, “the most ethical SO member there is” – David rues that proclamation – as it’s still true and this most ethical being will be David’s undoing.

    There will never be a bust of you little David but there may be one of the warrior conquerer Marty and his most loyal men/women who aided in taking you down, protecting LRH. (has the little midget been so vain as to commission a bust and if so it will be torn down and destroyed with the likes of Sadam Hussein or maybe it will be positioned on a pike.)

  53. The same old LDW

    Beautiful communication from my angle, Marty (and Steve). Lazer precise, on target and able to be duplicated and as-ised.

    I think we’re a mere 62 year old movement. The amount of traction the subject has attained in spite of all the mistakes and despite rabid SPs like miscavige, is pretty remarkable. The amount of attention we draw is pretty interesting in view of the relatively small number of people who actually participate in the activity of training and processing.

    The threat of our knowledge is pretty adversarial to many rooted-in vested interestes and we’ve not been real smart in many ways as we moved in to various areas. But we can do a bit of a withdraw, analyze the many situations, look at the plus points and the out-points and then each of us, independently or as groups of independents, we can move forward with self-determined goals of our own. Move on up a little higher in personal beingness and third and fourt dynamic co-operation and co-ordination.

    The organization itself was created for the purpose of training auditors who have the ability to help others erase their abberations. And organizing so that auditing can occur.

    This laudable goal was lost (by evaluation of the ACTUAL statistics) around the early 80’s. The only executive remaining, and lording over the downstats is david miscavige. Everyone else has been declared, yet the stats keep going down. miscavige’s glowing but false reports are well know to all but the party-faithful inside the Truman show. The faitfully willing to NOT LOOK.

    If he didn’t have a billion bucks to use in trying to destroy those of us who are trying to re-group and get the show on the road, he could safely be ignored. But as it is, a full scale expose of his crimes must continue until he’s fully nuetered and rendered harmless.

    Mike, Marty, Steve, Dan Koon, Jim Logan, the Hedleys, Debbie Cook…etc. etc. are all doing a magnificant job of exposing and running out the third D engram. All you guys have my full support.


  54. lorenzoegiorgio, Here I am talking about a religion and spiritual eternity not about reaching 20 years of service in a x wog corporation with retirement priviledges.

  55. Globetrotter

    He would not because doing so wouldn’t serve his purpose. Hitler wasn’t building bombs. He just recruited others with propaganda and told them who the enemy was and how rotten they were. Oh, wait, that’s what Dave is doing…

  56. martyrathbun09

    Thanks for sharing that Brian. Beautiful.

  57. Thank you, Freedom Fighter, for taking the time to post this link. Dane Tops’ letter of 1982 nearly had me in tears, there’s so much truth in it. I’m almost sick to my stomach realizing that he (and many others) were aware of all this thirty years ago, and that their comm never arrived at the most important receipt point – the Scientology public.

    The damage that has been caused by the lack of this essential Knowledge Report is incalculable. We would have likely been well on our way to a cleared planet by now, if this one horrendous incident had somehow been prevented.

    I can only hope that now is the time that it all ends, and that we begin the job of picking up the broken pieces and restoring our religion to its true potential.

  58. Personally, I never slag any of the pioneers of Scientology.

    They all worked their butts off to make this planet a better place.

    David Mayo got into Scientology a few short years before me in 1959.

    Many here were not even born yet.

    Most of the old-timers were booted out, forced out, declared, expelled, pressured, locked up, etc.

    The times were different but it did not lessen the contributions that these people put into the effort.

    I would think anyone who got in around the time that any of these people were being ousted could harbour a pretty dim view of these individuals.

    Any person who was in lowers or being declared or com-ev’d was treated like a social pariah and news of their demise was broadly disseminated.

    Were any of them SP’s? Not-a-one I met. They were decent, caring individuals.

    On the other hand, I can also understand these individuals being mighty pissed off being run outa town after years of sweat & blood.

    If some of these had a sizable group such as this to help at the time, maybe all would have turned out different. But fighting a machine with endless amounts of layers & cash can be daunting.

    Anyway, my hat’s off to the pioneers.

  59. Random Stranger

    51) Water bottle

    52) Book

    53) Electricity

    54) Status

    55) Humiliation

  60. miscavigeisscaredofsam

    “A wise man once noted that if one knows of out ethics and doesn’t do anything about it, after a while of doing nothing about it he becomes an accomplice.”
    A wise man indeed.

  61. There is much history to read about Mayo. He was betrayed and sued, 3p’d and all manor of campaign turned on him. I feel for the guy. He wasn’t trained in that arena and did get his butt kicked.

    If I recall correctly he was forbidden in the settlement from engaging
    in Scientology practices as a business or some such. The bulletins he had written were ordered destroyed by the court. He lost in a big way.

    Even Ron turned or on him or so it appears and in my opinion that’s what broke him. Ron was obviously given disinformation on the scene or he would have had DM shot from guns instead but none-the-less when Ron turned on him I imagine he was heartbroken.

    The Church has continued in their harrassment of him. They 3ped him interpol and got him arrested a few years back accused of being a drug smuggler.

    He has tried to run away and the beast that is Miscavige continues to pursue him.

    Natuarally, that is the wrong approach. It makes for a miserable life.

    He continues to be pursued because he has information that is Damaging to DM. This is DM’s MO. He never lets up on those who know too much. Mayo knows too much,about Ron, the tech and what went down in that period.

    And I agree he should pull himself back up and get back in the game.

  62. Thanks Les, and you mine.

  63. miscavigeisscaredofsam

    “The amount of kicking and screaming from the ethics-challenged beast has been horrifying during this period.”
    “…Whenever we’re really winning, the squirrels start to scream. You can tell if somebody is a squirrel. They howl or make trouble only when we’re winning.”
    L. Ron Hubbard

  64. Nicely put Les and I agree. Keep the pressure on and the light focused on the perp. The one and Only- One David Miscavige, SP extraordinaire.

  65. miscavigeisscaredofsam

    He sold out. Regardless of any good intentions he may have had I find that activity impossible to justify and even harder to forgive.

  66. BYW Marty, the above is not a swat for the post about the fly Named Joel Phillips.

    I have no problem with the occasional step back from the fight to pound an obnoxious side liner. It shows ownership of the ring.

  67. Random Stranger

    56) Elbow

    57) OSA

    58) Slaves

    59) Copper rod

    60) Video camera

  68. “Marty is right, ethics must be put in before tech can go in.”

    You are right on that. Where you see out ethics you see out tech or no tech.

    When I first got involved in Scientology, the people most highly trained were considered the leaders. The class Vl’s and the class 8’s. They were also usually the most ethical.

    The mission holders also were considered highly valuable and had the main influence on the Orgs and the people. Of course, they were highly trained, clear and OT. If David Miscavige and his entourage of screaming CMO had behaved the way they do now, in those days, it would have been an ” HCO bring Order” drill. They would have been thrown out as enturbulators.

    I have the utmost respect for those in tech that can stand away from the group and still wear their hat and be professional and conduct worthy exchanges with others. We do have some great terminals in the Independent Movement. People who are making releases, clears, OT’s, and auditors. Plenty of people still going up the bridge. Russia is churning out clears like clockwork. The leaders there also, the most ethical and highest trained.

  69. tonydephillips

    Good one Betsy!

  70. Well, include yourself in there too! I love the way you put that, “Miscavige’s glowing but false reports are well know to all but the party-faithful inside the Truman show.” +10

  71. I grew up in Berkley, Oakland and San Fransisco 1963 to 1970. Manhattan 1970 to 87 most of the time. In the middle of the civil strife. Whatever the leaders were doing, there was a whole lot of force on the streets backing it up. Freedom is fought for hard. It is always a matter of force in a fight. Leaders make goals. The people have to carry out the battle plans or the leaders fail. Whatever talk the leader has to talk, and it is usually one of higher ground, he knows there must be cultures down there making and breaking with battle plans behind him to see those dreams unfold.

  72. Martin, Love this post, you got it, lol. And those of us still here also know how DM smashed Mayo’s group.

  73. Jim,

    It’s easy to lose perspective in philosophy since realities are challenged and groups are not relevant. People who standup and fight, especially those who accomplished all that Mayo and his very excellent people accomplished, are heroes in my book. When I have accomplished more than someone else, perhaps I might have the honor of extending an invitation to them.

    Audie Murphy got shot in the hip and only when his comm line to artillery he was directing was cut, he retreated, but he still won the Congressional Medal of Honor for standing up alone on top of a burning American tank destroyer with a machine gun against an advancing company of Nazi’s.

    “When asked after the war why he had seized the machine gun and taken on an entire company of German infantry, he replied simply, “They were killing my friends.”


  74. P.S. There may be some here of the opinion that WW II was a U.S. mistake, since it involved a military-industrial capitalist-democracy power grab for the benefit of the Rothschildes and the Illuminati and took power from the people, etc..

  75. From 63 to 1970 I was kid growing up in inner city schools , dwelling in inner city neighborhoods. I knew early on Jesus talked the talk but, if others had not written it down, built Churches where translations could occur so the knowledge could be passed forward, and if there had not been a lot of blood shed, and cultural revolution, those bibles would not be sitting in the hotel rooms.

  76. Yes, it’s fascinating reading, but this guy “Dane’ started making my radar ping. At one point in the article, he’s relating the story of when the Mission holders and field auditors met at Flag, but he stumbles over exactly where or what ‘Flag’ is, as follows:

    K: What do you mean, it was on ‘Flag’? Is there a place where it was held?

    Dane: It was a place. It was the headquarters, and I believe that happened in Florida, didn’t it? Or was it on a ship?

    Dane’s friend: Clearwater, Florida.

    Dane: They had a land headquarters. It wasn’t on the ship headquarters where this happened.

    This guy claims to have been an auditor who worked on the Apollo, who only left the church in 1980, yet he’s that unclear on where and what Flag is?

    I read the original 1982 letter from Dane Tops, and that comm rings completely true, but this supposed recent interview with ‘Dane’ is just peppered with instances where he’s foggy on things that are common knowledge to most Scientologists (even those of thirty years ago).

    Just my opinion, but this interview sounds wobbly to me.

  77. civilrightsmama,

    I’m not sure if you are the same person as What is Greatness but I see your point and believe it is a valid one. The difficulty with Scn is that it is not in itself a social movement. It is to individual benefit. So the individual has, in essence, initially, the problem of differentiating from the society which he is trying to integrate into. As What is Greatness noted, the Scientologist has the problem of being a philosopher first, then a leader in his own right. People easily confuse being a leader with group participation, but until the philosophical direction is established clearly, he will default to group participation.

    The practicalities of the difficult situation are a “bootstrap” operation in which group promotes individual and individual promotes group. What happened with the Co$ is that the group got way ahead of the individual, and without strong philosophical leadership, the entire organization was easily led far astray. Jocks and activists and soldiers all have their parts to play, but the philosopher is truly the King – as long as we retain separation of Church and State, separation of the individual from the group.

    Scientology is a very bold venture. Truth is not for the faint of vision. So it has difficulties above those of a social movement.- you are correct, imo, that the high ground (going from “A” to “B” and getting results) is the ticket, and how to achieve that is the correct answer.


  78. Chuck, I sure as hell hope you’re wrong in referring to him as “the late Phil Spickler”!

    Phil is one incredible being who made a lot of great Scientologists before he ran into DM’s meat grinder along with so many other beings of inestimable value.

    Here’s hoping he is still around and in excellent health.

  79. I see your point as very practically valid. The difference is, if I may presume to say so: you have a firm grasp of the philosophical truths. That, in this instance of Scientology v. The Church and State Corporation, is not “half the battle” but the whole battle. Never lose sight of the mountain you are climbing (sounds like Yogi Berra ~~ if you don’t know where you’re going, you better be careful, because you might not get there ~~).

  80. What is Greatness – Yes, you’re right. The philosophers are busy auditing. Can you imagine an entire society of Dalai Lamas? I know it is positively outrageous, but that’s what we’re about. Hopefully, one day, however many thousands of years that may be, no requirement for leaders at all. Some will be stronger, yes, and some will be weaker, yes, but all will be able to tell the difference between any truth and any lie. – Carcha.

  81. Not to suggest the goal and the actions and habits and routines do NOT have to be on higher ground. They do. But that does not discount struggle.

  82. Random Stranger

    61) Blackmail

    62) Bribery

    63) Lying

    64) Harassment

    65) Spying

  83. Random Stranger

    66) Buckets of piranha

    67) Squirt guns with acid

    68) Spit

    69) Yelling

    70) Razor wire

  84. +1 Right on. Beautiful way of phrasing very complex and practical thought, bringing the simplicity and applicability to light.

  85. Kate Bornstein is good people and truly repentant about the bad things she did Back In The Day.

  86. Standard Oil and Ford had their deal too here in germany.
    We in germany are well known for the (tempo unlimited) autobahn.
    Its constructions started in the 1930s and above mentioned parties benefited from germanies motorization. It’s not a joke.

  87. “Even Ron turned or on him or so it appears and in my opinion that’s what broke him. Ron was obviously given disinformation on the scene or he would have had DM shot from guns instead but none-the-less when Ron turned on him I imagine he was heartbroken.”

    Yes, this was heartbreaking for him.
    But I don’t believe that “LRHs” quotations in the SO ED 2344 Int from 20 August 1983 were really written by LRH. (They do not sound like LRHs style to me.)
    And if LRH wrote the quotes, why he didn’t write the whole ED?

    Here is a sample quote:

    “[It was] as SP use of tech, selectively caving people in.” (LRH)

    Would LRH write this about a person who saved his life?

    Or this paragraphs from the SO ED 2344 Int:

    Probably the last thing Mayo expected was that a Class 4 Auditor would find this out tech or, upon finding it, would report it. Fortunately
    the auditor did report it, applying the HCO PL 22 July 82 KNOWLEDGE
    REPORTS, to keep Scientology working. LRH then called for more pc
    folders that Mayo had been C/Sing and more of the same hideous squirreling was found. The actions he had taken on these cases were not “errors”. What he’d been doing was deliberately misprogramming and mis-C/Sing the cases of executives in the areas he worked in to try to cave them in and make them think that Scn “didn’t work”.

    The Class IV Auditor was Miscavige?
    He is a prick.
    He hated David Mayo because he had the same initials, I guess. 😀

    Read the whole SO ED 2344 Int:


  88. Good post Dennis

  89. Yeah, right. Auditors: the most valuable Beings.
    Thats why DM hates them so much and perverts traning.

    It sucks to be Miscavige.

  90. What did Jesus do, if not declare a danger condition and apply the danger formula.

  91. The malicious, vindictive hate sites on Marty and Mike are so over the top, so venomous so incredulous, from a “CHURCH” no less. I will state that the poison pen propaganda sites can cause a boomerang effect i.e. they propel people out of the Church.
    I wish I could share Emails which reveal that Church sites sickened publics to and caused that final decision to ask for refund.
    Or that they read these Church hate sites and now are fence sitters thinking it all over.
    Or that it is incredulous and unbelievable that if Marty and Mike were all these things why they were posted in THE most senior positions for 25 years and 20 years……

  92. There is validity in getting enablers to quit filling the coffers. This finally did force South African change. International boycott and refusal to support – recognition that any profits from there were truly tainted blood money.

    I do believe that the billions of dollars in the coffers are diminishing. Though we do not have the stats, it seems there may well be LESS coming in from the crush-regged Koolaiders, than is being spent like water by DM creating his showpiece idle Morgues and other outlandish outlays of cash, events and extravagances. My guess is that his cash flow is negative, and has been so for awhile, which makes the time bomb on the Ponzi scheme ticking ticking ticking…..

    There is still gobs of cash, of course. But work to cut off the support system (money feeder lines) is bearing fruit – like the idea of blocking the lifegiving blood flow and nutrition to cancer cells in a body. King Cancer DM, like cancer, is just making little copies of himself anyway – clones in his army.

    Every single person who withdraws, quietly or loudly, helps deny the nutrition. Every single person who ceases to feed in money, is essentially supporting the freedom machine we try to build, while strangling the lifesucking DM machine.

    Marty and other keep the fires blazing and the truth coming. Flanking efforts propagate this out finally resulting in opening blind eyes. Like the media who exposed South African abuses, thus opening the eyes of enablers, and the denial of financial and other support, the truthful exposure is forcing eyes to open, one by one.

    The machine is dying. TA is moving, do nothing (translated, keep doing what you are doing, don’t change the process).

  93. Tom Gallagher

    61) saliva glands

  94. one of those who see

    Rafael, I think you are being too hard on the man. Having watched the AAC Video, read the 2 journals I could get a hold of and listened to his sunday talks online- I ended up with huge ARC for David. Do i wish he would have hung in there some how and stayed in comm. Yes. But, I hold nothing against him.
    He left the church after so many years and just set up and started delivering. And from what I could see people were moving up the bridge and the movement was spreading. But the Suppression was too strong for him.
    I am thinking about what Marty has written. Way back at some point he said he wanted to make it safe to practice Scientology outside the walls. That’s an Ethics point. David and the Independents back in the 80’s really just started delivering. And maybe that was the problem. They ignored the Ethics part of the equation. I’ll be honest, I would tend to lean that way myself. Ignore the suppression and just deliver, but they didn’t make it as a movement. So, with Marty, MIke, Amy, Debbie and others putting in Ethics – that may be the difference needed to succeed. And of course the internet makes a huge difference in speed and reach of communication.
    I also want to say that even with the AAC’s closing and David Mayo gone, many have continued to deliver. They are heros. And my viewpoint on David Mayo is that he deserves some Ethics Protection for all he did in Scientology as a pioneering public, Sea Org Member, Senior C/S and finally starting and running the AAC in Santa Barbara and helping expand the Independent movement at that time.

  95. one of those who see


  96. one of those who see


  97. Thank you Random Stranger! I appreciated getting such a good chuckle.

  98. Dennis,
    My hat is off to them to. I think the original comment I made should be reviewed. My opinion is that Mr. Mayo wasn’t prepared to go ALL the way. That is a critical difference. Sooner or later, he’ll have to get back on the horsey. The horsey is still there. And there’s lots of us willing to give him a boost into the saddle. It’s HIS decision.

  99. Chuck,
    My old colleague. I mean this sincerely; there IS a way to get Scientology off your brain. Scientology runs out Scientology. It’s a fact.

  100. “A team has a tendency to know what the other team members are doing and thinking and coordinates thereby and therewith. That is a definition of a team. It is people who cooperate one with another to push forward a common purpose and they normally get along great.” (Admin Dictionary)

  101. Tony DePhillips

    61) Used thong

  102. Carcha,
    Relax dude/dudette. Read what I wrote again and don’t fill in between the lines.

    Mayo isn’t my hero. He isn’t an enemy either. He’s a trained auditor and CS. I hope to see him back in the chair or Ivory Tower. He’ll have to account for his acts, one way or the other, and move on up. If he decides to do so, I am willing to see him in my cramming chair. Via ethics of course.

  103. No, I’m not much for the Reptilian Illuminati factor in any war on this planet. They may be involved in Taco Bell…that food sucks hard. It’s kinda green too.

  104. P.S. One of the best things Mr. Mayo did was to compile the NOTs Series and NOT alter LRH. He put it there, just as he heard it on the transcripts, and I am extremely, highly, incredibly grateful he did.

  105. Tapes, transcripts of which, he used to compile the materials.

  106. It is highly enlightening and worthwhile reading. Plus ça change (plus c’est la même chose). “The more things change the more they stay the same”. This letter could have been written at any point in the last 30 years and would be as valid and current as it was then.

    Here was radicalisation in its early days. And yet… don’t we have to look even earlier? Isn’t there plenty of evidence that the roots of radicalisation began with the era of the ethics issues from ’65 onwards? Maybe this is the wrong forum to bring this up, and I wasn’t there so have nothing to offer such a discussion personally. But increasingly green on white became ever more littered with phrases such as “the only hope for mankind”, and “if this planet survives at all…” “your own destiny for the next endless trillions of years” etc. Isn’t this language just begging to be used for radicalisation? If one goes bowling one day a week instead of doing Scientology he is “suppressive”? I don’t know, and I’m not trying to ruffle any feathers, but I feel safe enough in this group to bring this up as it’s been troubling me for a while… (Mod – understand completely if you don’t wish to post this).

  107. Marty,

    Your suggestion to offer my services in website building was an awesome idea. As you know, although I am doing OK financially, I am not really in a position to contribute monetarily at this time. BUT… I can certainly offer my services as a WordPress “expert” (a bit presumptuous of me but somewhat true) to all 3 of you (you, Steve and Karen). I love doing this work in general and knowing I would be putting more “nails in the coffin” of Miscavige would really make me happy.

    Please contact me and let me know what I can do (non-Existence formula).

    I will express it in a way that “ages” me a bit (after all I am over 30…) but let me just say “keep the faith baby” (for you old timers it reminds me of the days of, bot not necessarily the views of, people like Abbey Hoffman…back in the bad old ’60’s).

    Hy Levy

  108. martyrathbun09

    Thanks Hy. We’ll be tackling this together real soon.

  109. martyrathbun09

    Thanks. Been watching his old movies lately – remarkable catalog of work.

  110. George M. White

    I have been blocked for 2 weeks

  111. ++1
    Mr. Mayo wasn’t prepared to go ALL the way.
    And SAD.

    All the wisdom without power.
    Against power with some understanding (wisdom) and better organization.
    No ballance.
    DM used the same pattern the chinese used to get rid of the tibetans in 1950s.
    LRH spoke about this phenomenon (SHSBC lectures?).

  112. Some ethics protection. Yes.
    But it’s up to him to re-climb the conditions of operation.
    We don’t know what postulates he made. What his considerations about Scientology are.
    Is he still alive?
    And if yes, is he still sessionable? Willing to go through it once again?

    I’ll be glad to see this happen.

  113. Random Stranger

    62) Pit bull

    63) Zip gun

    64) Tweezers

    65) Hatchet

    66) Roll of quarters

  114. davidmayouisscaredofsam

  115. And if LRH wrote the quotes, why he didn’t write the whole ED?

    If I had to make a guess I’d say Miscavige wrote the whole thing. Would anyone put it past him? Remember we’re talking about a CL 4 auditor (Miscavige) who knew his tech so well that he hit his PC, which from all accounts was the end of his auditing career. Yet we’re to believe he found out-tech? What a joke.

  116. David Mayo David Schmayo,I did Mayo OT Preps in the 80’s
    It was designed to cave in a pre OT so nobody who did Mayo Preps would get any farther up the Bridge.
    He wrote crap orders to sqeeze money out of public to force them into the chute at the slaugter house.
    David Mayo was a NUT.Bigger Nuts promoted him as a living GOD, BARF
    BARF Three Swing BARF

  117. martyrathbun09

    If you want to know how sheeplike folk can be check out this post:
    By the way, five days after this posting, the Squirrel Busters showed up at my door and stayed for 199 days.

  118. Freedom Fighter

    Ronnie, I know just what you mean. I had to pause after nearly every paragraph just to let the charge blow off. A couple of times I couldn’t keep from bursting out in tears. From what I understand, this letter did reach over 1000 people and was an instrumental factor in the mass exodus of people out of the church back in the early ’80s. One of them is a dear friend of mine who is one of the original CL VIIIs trained by LRH on the Apollo.

  119. Freedom Fighter

    Age may be a factor at this point. My guess.

  120. Freedom Fighter

    +1 Dennis. It pains me to see that some here still dramatize the some of the very things that drove many of us out — the harsh ethics, make-wrong etc. No one is perfect — not the pioneers and not anyone on this blog. All, however, are heroes in their own right regardless of their flaws. My postulate is that we all continue to move on up a little higher.

  121. Freedom Fighter

    Well stated, OOTWS. +1

  122. one of those who see, No, it is hard to be willing to die for your religion as cristians, buddhists, muslims, jews, etc. do . Now we have the internet and independent scientology leaders offering an open hand and asking him to join the party. I hope he takes his second chance to recover and back up his beliefs.

  123. Random Stranger

    67) Hacking

    68) Choking

    69) Imprisoning

    70) Kidnapping

  124. Random Stranger

    71) Slandering

    72) Libeling

    73) Tricking

    74) Ambushing

    75) Squirreling

  125. Tony DePhillips

    This makes you sound rather arrogant.

  126. I just finished reading the Dane Tops letter. it is exceptional and equally scarey given the amount of time that has passed since it was written. It feels compelling and 100% true. indeed, I’d like to posta direct quote from his final pages because I think it sets the tone for us all even today:
    “We have the power to as-is. We have THETA can this can produce as-is-ness and truth where we direct our attention. Don’t expect Ron to save us.
    The SO 1 [write to Ron] live does not exist. For over ten years teams of
    person have been answering your mail to Ron. The “signature” is a rubber
    stamp. He is not running the Church of Scientology. He is not running to
    our rescue any longer.”

  127. martyrathbun09

    It contains a lot of truths. It is by no means “100% true”.

  128. Random Stranger

    76) Chinese haircut

    77) Noogie

    78) Indian wristburn

    79) Kung-fu

    80) Wedgie

  129. Random Stranger

    81) Lumberjack wrestling

    82) Clothes ripping

    83) Hair pulling

    84) Eye gouging

    85) Fart lighting

  130. Random Stranger

    86) Neck bending

    87) Arm twisting

    88) Kneecap smashing

    89) Head butting

    90) Car chasing

  131. Random Stranger


    91) Dumpster diving

    92) Stalking

    93) Stealing

    94) Usery

    95) Booger flicking

    96) Razberry

    97) Judo

    98) Mocking

    99) Degrading

    100) Cash flashing

  132. Random Stranger

    I knew that bastard had a hundred.

  133. Tony DePhillips

    I think ethics has it’s place but I also think that recognizing a persons rightnesses and contributions are important. LRH chose this man to be Senior C/S Int he must have known a thing or two. Let someone walk a mile in his shoes before they condemn him too much. The black P/R on him is most likely false. We all have out-points FF, I agree with this. Let those without sin cast the first stone.

  134. scilonschools

    “That is one reason why I have stayed true from the beginning to the vow never to accept money from anyone that carries with it any attempt to influence my direction or behavior!

    That is a far more rare quality than most realise! I know senior members of the Anglican Church who falter HEAVILY on that one!!

    (It is this quality and that you hold to you orignal ideals of your understanding of LRH and Scientology as you understood it, not wholesale denial of your belirfs, that gives you credibility , in my book anyway.)

  135. Another recommend. The story of a master battle planner during the civil rights movement. This guy moved mountains under Martin Luther King:

  136. So what? I can sound all sorts of different ways. There are all sorts of particles to create. Who the f says I gotta pick ones that everybody likes all the time? I can create. I can communicate. In varying ways, and with various means.

  137. The PDC’s refer to the Force Band, and the necessity to get through it. Confronting it is the first step.

    Dramatizing suggests some sort of automaticity merely playing out. Cause is different. And it’s a wonderful drill to be able to create and communicate ANY type of particle. It also is an ability to be able to experience them. It is freedom from dramatization indeed.

  138. tonydephillips

    Andso can others.

  139. martyrathbun09

    Thanks TO

  140. martin ruston


    David Mayo is a 70 year old who is actively living his life.

    Sadly he got the worst treatment of anyone I have ever heard of from Scientology.

    The worst has never been published.

    If and when the gag agreements get shot full of holes he may be persuaded to tell everything. There is a lot to tell.

    But the owners of this site know very well how he was hamstrung, after all – they did the hamstringing.

    Still I doubt (I sincerely hope anyway) they know the worst of what was done to him by Miscavidge. I doubt many here would have handled it so well – so before you condemn realise that you have no inkling of what went down.

    I was in very many centres of Independence in the 80’s and I do not know of any leader who was “bought” off. Was Bill Robertson bought?, I know Jon Atack was bankrupted, I know Robin Scott went to prison after refusing to accept a payoff to falsely incriminate others (me included). So who, exactly, was bought?

    As far as I know David Mayo settled under conditions that didn’t benefit him financially. Any cash received went to his financial sponsor to pay legal bills. His legal collapsed when his sponsor pulled the plug.

    Remember at that time there was no internet or anonymous to assist.

    Things were totally different then. The two people “we” (the Royal “we”) praise today were in fact responsible for many of the shameful things that were done to David Mayo.

    David Mayo won’t speak for himself on these matters because of his gag agreement.

    At 70 years of age I can assure you that no one wants that sort of shitstorm happening again.

    Of course if he had substantial backers to fight and win any legal action he may be persuaded but I doubt it.

    He has stated many times he is no longer a scientologist and has no interest in furthering it.


    Just saying!
    Martin Ruston

  141. martin ruston


    David Mayo doesn’t want to get back in the game. He is a 70 year old man just kicking back and fixing his place up.

    It’s pretty well know that when he audited Ron he started having doubts about scientology and now he wants nothing more to do with it – as I understand it.

    Read my post further up – if it gets past the censors!


  142. martyrathbun09

    For the record, since he’s already evaluated me a ‘censor’, my MODERATION policy has been published twice here and is fairly known – and seldom, if ever, protested – I haven’t seen what he is referring to; but know that if it doesn’t appear it doesn’t meet the standards of well known, communicated and understood standards.

  143. martin ruston


    I realise that I am in opposition to many of your ideas and opinions. However truth will out and I, like you, believe it is the only answer.

    What then exactly is truth? You have your “truth” and I have mine. They don’t have to be the same. We can have different truths and I accept that.

    However on matters of fact there is usually something that is more true than something else.

    Can we deal in specifics please? You started your thread by covertly attacking David Mayo who can not defend himself. I quote your words

    “The eighties leaders were different than current leaders in that the former ultimately were bought.”

    There was no need for the attack was there? Why?

    We can argue the toss backwards and forwards till the cows come home and we will probably get no where. I do understand this blog is yours and I must obey your rules. However when you attack someone (as you have in the past) who is a friend then I feel obligated to step in.

    I don’t know all the specifics – only what I have been told from my side. If your specifics differ then I would be very pleased to listen. After all I certainly want to know if my friends have filled me full of bull.

    If you want to do this in private then I can agree to that but I don’t see why we should. I have nothing to hide.

    However I would appreciate you moderating your tone. I don’t call you names and I if I did you would ban me – as you have already intimated. Isn’t it possible to have a difference of agreement in your world? Is it possible that you “always attack – never defend”?

    If I am wrong – if my facts are wrong I will be the first to apologise. I have nothing personal invested here. There are always two sides to every story. You have a great deal of information and you have your “side”. Are you not interested in listening to the other side?

    Martin Ruston

  144. martyrathbun09

    Thanks Martin. You have provided valuable information narrowing the target of the investigation and evaluation. Really.

  145. martin ruston

    on this board censer and moderator are the same thing. Usually a moderator “moderates” things like personal attacks, bad language, ad homs, etc etc. However this board is actually called censoring because posts that are not approved by the owners are rejected. No free, open and fair discussions are allowed unless they further the aims of the owner. This is OK as it is a privately owned site with specific objectives. I understand that. However it IS censored!!

  146. From what I understand, this letter did reach over 1000 people and was an instrumental factor in the mass exodus of people out of the church back in the early ’80s.

    Yes, my mistake. I didn’t duplicate that part until I read it a second time.

    Still, I was around in the early 80s, and never saw Dane’s letter, and never heard a thing about it in my circle of friends and associates. Even years later down the chain, I never heard anything about any of this. Chalk it up to squelched and hidden communication within the group, I suppose.

  147. Hello Marty,
    I red the above linked post and I really understand what you are saying.
    I was never “seeking to raise Mayo to sainthood” by myself, however, there are still things which do not make sense to me (trying to put the incidents in a sequence) :
    1) Mayo was Snr C/S Int in late 70s
    2) Mayo was Auditing LRH around 78/79
    3) Mayo wrote some Bulletins about TRs
    4) There was a revision of the TRs Bulletin “TRAINING DRILLS REMODERNIZED” HCOB 16 AUG 1971RA II RE-REVISED 4 SEPT 1980
    5) SO ED 2344 Int (from 20 August 1983) implies, that the re-revised TRs Bulletin was written by “the Squirrel Mayo”.
    6) The above TRs Bulletin was later “canceled” and many people never heard of it as the previous revision was re-issued (rev. from 5 JUL 1978)
    7) The re-revised and later removed HCOB says:
    The TRs given here should be put in use at once in all auditor training, in Academy and HGC and in the future should never be relaxed.
    A more gradient approach to TRs is taught on specially packaged co-audits for those with no prior technical training, where the same degree of flawlessness and skill demanded of a professional auditor is not demanded of the untrained co-auditor.
    And there is still another gradient of TRs found on courses for new public in Division 6, where the person is getting his first experience in handling communication in his life and livingness.
    But on a Professional TRs Course for auditors absolutely no standards are lowered. PROFESSIONAL AUDITORS IN TRAINING ARE GIVEN REAL TRs – ROUGH, TOUGH AND HARD. To do otherwise is to lose 90% of the results. There is nothing pale and patty-cake about TRs.

    7) If you read HCOB 16 AUG 1971R (rev. from 5 JUL 1978) it “forbids” having any other TRs such as Livingness TRs (Comm-Course)

    Public courses on TRs are NOT “softened” because they are for the public. Absolutely no standards are lowered. THE PUBLIC ARE GIVEN REAL TRs – ROUGH, TOUGH AND HARD. To do otherwise is to lose 90% of the results. There is nothing pale and patty-cake about TRs.

    8) Yet we have lots of TRs alterations in the CofS: Comm-Course (who created them, BTW? Any input?), Handbook-TRs, the HAS/HQS TRs.

    Who was responsible for the removal of the TRs Bulletin “TRAINING DRILLS REMODERNIZED” HCOB 16 AUG 1971RA II RE-REVISED 4 SEPT 1980? (Someone with MUs? Why is this HCOB considered “squirrel” at all? It gives good theory to each of the TRs. Plus a good definition of TRs.)
    Was the “SO ED 2344 Int” verified by LRH before release (who knows that)?
    Are those comments, allegedly written by LRH really from him?

    Anyone can help me in the reconstruction of this period, please?

    Marty, I know David Mayo was not the originator of NOTs/Solo NOTs. : – )
    I know he made lots of mistakes. I don’t know if it started after Miscavige was up to remove him from his post and position. There is something like PTSness, too (I’m not trying to justify his mistakes – just as technical fact).
    I also know that he helped a lot of people (including LRH) before he ran into the GPM mass.

    I am just not sure if the removal of the TRs Bulletins was justifiable.
    There is no valid Data from LRH on this. Only the “SO ED 2344 Int” which I hardly believe was verified by Ron.
    All the mess was created by David Miscavige and his BPC style reversed Scientology. Without Mistreatwitch, the whole field of Scientology would have another face.
    Mayo would still have some Mojo and we wouldn’t need to run “What’s it?” on him.

  148. MostlyLurker

    It’s not only hard, it is stupid to die for any religion. I have yet to see a religion that does not harm its people, Scientology too. What I liked of Scientology was the philosophy, not the religion.

  149. one of those who see

    I hope we hear from him again too. He is getting up there in age. He must be similar in age to Heber.
    To David Mayo: I hope you read here. We are in a Reformation Period. You started it back in the ’80s. Thank you. We have more tools now. Time has gone by and maybe we have a clearer look at what is needed to handle the Suppression of Scientology. Marty and MIke were there. they know exactly how Miscavige operates. They can out maneuver him because they are a step ahead and are not dramatizing as he is. We have renewed hope. You wanted the theta of Scientology without the Coercion. I listened to your words from the ’80s and they totally keyed me out. LRH wrote “The work was free, keep it so.” The Independents are freeing his work. So many are being heroic. You withdrew. You got some space. Ok. I am hoping you once again join the game. After all as a Class XII Auditor, you are one of the most valuable beings on the planet.

  150. one of those who see

    “Monique can attest to the trend – and how no matter how lean things become on this end, I have not and will not pander or attempt to please to make a living – to me that is not living; that is the route to dying.”
    You have my up most respect Marty. Once again I must say Thank you for all you and Mosey are doing for Freedom.

  151. MostlyLurker

    @one of those who see
    I agree.

  152. Ah, the wisdom of the moderation of the Middle Path, and the virtues of the many patiences. – Carcha.

  153. Freedom Fighter

    Chalk it up to squelched and hidden communication within the group, I suppose.

    Yeah, that and the lack of the Internet, likely. It’s no wonder governments are trying to suppress its use. Once data hits the interwebs, it spreads like wildfire.

  154. Freedom Fighter

    Jim, I spent years in this man’s Army and have taken part in many other force-related activities this lifetime. I can assure you that I have NO inability to experience force nor do I have an inability to dish it. The point is that all of us have our short-comings when it comes to handling this situation. Sitting around pointing the finger at each other, whether overtly or covertly, saying he/she did or didn’t do what I think they should have done is counter-productive. We all brought this shitstorm on ourselves. Let’s not go around shooting our fellow soldiers on the battlefield for hitting their saturation point and folding under whatever weight rained down upon them. Everyone has the right to leave any game. Making someone wrong for having done so will not encourage them to step up and start playing again.

  155. martin ruston


    I don’t see why you think David (Mayo) will have to get back on the horsey!! David has done what many old timers have done. He has outgrown religion in all its guises. Upwards and outwards. Scientology was just a stepping stone to greater awareness and knowledge. We have no longer any need for it.

    While it is still of use to you please go for it. We would not deprive you of your need. There is a big surprise waiting for you at the end.

    Hint! It has to do with “knowing”.

    Honestly I am not being facetious here or cover or over or anything else. There IS a greater awareness and knowledge waiting past religion – any religion.


  156. It’s pretty well know that when he audited Ron he started having doubts about scientology and now he wants nothing more to do with it – as I understand it.

    Hmm. Well known by whom? Where do I find the substantiation on that tidbit? If I am late to the game, so be it, and pardon my tardiness.

    Your further up piece did may it past “censors”. You follow the quite liberal moderation policy here and your posts flow like warm butter on hot blueberry pancakes.

  157. Martin,
    I think you’ve touched the salient point here, if it’s true; Mr. Mayo doesn’t consider himself a Scientologist.

    I personally witnessed him, in one of his videos, violate the Auditor’s Code and reveal session data in a denigrating manner, by name. It was that, and that his integrity had a price that kinda put me off with this person.

    Does that wipe out any and all good he accomplished in his life? No. It is a something though, and may account in part for his fading away from the rough ride the horsey gave him.

    You can blame the horse, or you can tame it.

  158. Who are you? My name is Jim Logan. What is yours?

  159. And…well, yes…so can others. Uh, yeah, I know that, it was sorta like my point…and umm, well…ah, so?

    Does your mother eat worms Tony? Or mine. Well, mine is dead and gone, cremated the body so no worms were eating or eaten by anybody in that one. But, well, worms, eat, is it…TRUE?!

  160. martin ruston

    Bruce Pratt | March 25, 2012 at 3:05 am | Reply
    “Hmm. Well known by whom? Where do I find the substantiation on that tidbit? If I am late to the game, so be it, and pardon my tardiness.

    Your further up piece did may it past “censors”. You follow the quite liberal moderation policy here and your posts flow like warm butter on hot blueberry pancakes.”

    I have had that personally from David’s owns lips but I am aware that it has been posted elsewhere and if memory serves me correctly, for quite a while.
    I don’t engage in ad homs or foul language nor do I insult posters here. However quite a few posts of mine do not get through even though they have been spot on topic.

  161. I’ll pick you on this one. Just a draw, no further significance.

    I’m not pointing any fucking finger. The man’s representative here, Martin Ruston, has spoken for David Mayo. They are in present or relatively present time communication. Mayo is not a Scientologist, by his own choice. He has revealed session data, denigrated the person publicly and has sold his integrity.

    Not my kinda guy. If he’s yours, well, so it is.

  162. Tony,
    Read Ruston’s comments. That is Mayo today. It has nothing to do with casting aspersions or stones. I pointed out the rationale of my opinion. It is sound.

    Not only that, I’ve publicly offered to help him, which you termed “arrogant”, but nonetheless is a sincere offer and based on CS Series 57: “Get “To Cramming” to mean, “normal procedure even for Class XIIs” .”

    That isn’t stone throwing. That’s a help flow. Fuck off Tony, you pompous fucking old hippie twit. THAT is stone throwing.

  163. P.S. Tony, before you get that riled up here. That last is a JOKE. NOT serious. NOT A REAL STONE. I’m an old hippie, can be very pompous and so if anything it’s the criminal mind making accusations of my own nasty, and NOT hidden past.

  164. Well Martin, if it’s well known, and you are apparently his buddy in PT, then I gotta wonder why the heck he even started the AAC in the first place. I mean, as you are suggesting, he was in doubt about Scientology, so what the hey? He was assuaging his doubt’s by setting up a practice in something he himself didn’t credit? What does that say about his integrity?

    Your his voice. Speak about that, won’t you. Nah, nevermind. Illogic is abounding here. Moving on.

  165. P.S. STILL, IF Mayo were to make the reach, my hand would be outstretched. But not to be pulled down. I’ll let go…and keep it at the ready should he choose to reach again.

  166. one of those who see

    Les, Great Comment!
    You wrote:The organization itself was created for the purpose of training auditors who have the ability to help others erase their abberations. And organizing so that auditing can occur.
    So simple! I realized after reading this how simple it all was. Miscavige has created a complexity!

  167. martyrathbun09


  168. Yes, Lorenzo. Fair game, indeed. Nothing of which the likes of have been seen in recent years – yet.

  169. Who’s investigation and evaluation? Your? The church’s? Or both? Please expound on what you are saying here.

    Martin Ruston is nobody’s tool. He’s one of the most beloved and fair minded former members , a man of integrity and grace. Your treatment of him on this blog, expecially in this response to his earnest attempt to reason with you, speaks more about you than him.

    So do tell. Who’s investigation and evaluation are you speak of?

  170. Freedom Fighter

    He has revealed session data, denigrated the person publicly and has sold his integrity.

    Didn’t know all of this. Fair enough. It’s not that he’s my kind of guy at all and I, too, feel it sucks that he took a payoff. I just don’t see the need to necessarily engage in a bash-fest of him given his previous stature in the church. Doesn’t do any good really. I do see your point, though. Truce.

  171. martyrathbun09

    Check out the blog post the day before “Indpendents, now and then” upon which you comment – “Council for Spiritual Integrity”, for your answers. Your reaction is a marvelous study in the long-term effects of cultification.

  172. “It’s pretty well know that when he audited Ron he started having doubts about scientology and now he wants nothing more to do with it – as I understand it.”

    It doesn’t seem to me to be true:

    And if he had doubts he didn’t apply the fromula and things became worse to him (and finally he got his ass kicked by DMisc.).
    Is this what you want to tell us?
    We already know that he refused to use ethics on his AAC.
    He should start using it, no matter how old he may be in PT.

  173. martin ruston

    “The man’s representative here, Martin Ruston,”

    Jim, you elevate my position. I am certainly NOT David Mayo’s representative. Indeed I represent myself. Can’t I come to a friend’s aid when he is being disparaged and can’t defend himself?

    “Let he who is without sin cast the first stone.” is a good way to look at life. I believe your current associates have many sins to their name but do I hear you say they have sold their integrity? No I don’t.

    I have never intimated that David Mayo has led a blameless life, nor would I ever. I certainly haven’t. Please don’t take this as an insult but you do come across as a bit “holier than thou”.

  174. Dear Hy,
    Thanks for pitching in. Please Email me ~~

  175. martyrathbun09

    You are so hypocritical. You come in here throwing rocks and me and hid behind this biblical reference. Get life punk.

  176. martyrathbun09

    This guy is becoming the Tommy Davis of the Corporate AAC.

  177. SKM,
    The 1980 TRs issue you refer to was simply not OKed by LRH. That fact was determined clearly and the issue was cancelled. It altered the LRH authored version of the same title. That’s all that happened with that particular issue.

    Write to me. I was a Sup for the Flag Hard TRs course in the late 70s. I can help you sort out these questions.

  178. martin ruston

    A very dismissive reply. There is a perfectly rational explanation to your non question. However it seems you don’t want to hear it.

    As I say to my son “you learn more with your ears than your lips!” Indeed it is impossible to learn when you already think you know the answers. Even LRH knew that.

    If you want to really learn unblock your ears and open your mind. That will allow new and important data in.

  179. BOO!!!

  180. martin ruston

    Thank you Mary. However it won’t change marty’s opinions. I am not a Hubbard man and that is the essence of it. Neither am I marty man and maybe that is more telling.

  181. Martin,
    Good for you.

    You don’t know me, so the rest of this, well, presumption at the least and at the worst, ummm…yeah, well ahh, yes, errr, OK.

    Tongue firmly planted in cheek.

  182. martyrathbun09

    The former tells me all I need to know. Those who know me know that the latter is irrelevant to me.

  183. Martin,
    The initial posting I made was from the perspective you allude to in your presumptive comment above. That is, knowing. To achieve that state, one has to go through the lower Know to Mystery states, the various harmonics of it as it is placed on the Grand Scale (depicted in the Tone Scale), similarly to the DEI scale described in the PDC tapes. This is covered in the 9th ACC tape 7 Jan 55, Elementary Material: Know to Mystery Scale.

    Mayo is going to have to get on the “horsey”. The horsey being the scope of the Dynamics and embracing the concept of FULL responsibility – the willingness to assume the status of full source and cause of efforts and counter-efforts across the scene.

    You, as spokesman for him, have now suggested he is somehow hamstrung in his own voice. Well, that doesn’t add up now does it? If he’s reached this exalted surpass of all things understanding, and moved on up to knowing, what about the fact that I am here and relating to him via you? That would seem to indicate he’s not quite there yet. He’s got dregs of connections to the Dynamics.

    The “horsey” is still there – snorting and looming large, despite his efforts to evade. In spite of the payoffs, he is STILL intertwined with life. The only way out is through. Not running away. That is the “horsey” – the Dynamics.

    None of us are “blameless”. Full responsibility is higher on the scale.

    “Holier than thou”? That’s foolishness – Dunne’s poem is apropos – the bell tolls, and Mayo and you and I, well, we do the tolling. THAT is my frikkin’ point from the very first frikkin’ post. Duh.

  184. I have another one for him:

    Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother’s eye.
    Matthew 7, 5 King James vers.

    In fact, “martin ruston”, you miss the lots of positive replies about DMayo.
    Try to add some data of value to this tt reconstruction.

  185. martin ruston

    mine too!!

  186. Hello Jim,

    thank you very much.
    I will do so soon.
    (Will take some days ’till I contact you, though.)

    Thank you.

  187. Oh yeah, Martin, you’re an unguent prick. That’s 1.1 on the scale, far below 40 and Knowing.

  188. Finally you say something about who you are, Martin Ruston.

  189. OKAY smarty pants, what is the “perfectly rational explanation” to a perfectly irrational scenario: a guy that doubts the veracity of a subject that then sets up a practice of the same subject.

    I’m all ears.

  190. SKM,
    Always good to have the whole reference for context. Merci.

  191. You have no idea who I am, what groups I have belonged to, and what I believe. All I did was ask a simple question and comment on your response to Martin, which I felt was uncalled for. Your reaction to my comment is a sad demonstration in ignorance and bias, as was your reaction to Martin’s comment. You presume we are some throwback freezoners but your presumption is wrong.

    The only cult I was ever in was The Church of Scientology, where free speech did not exist and the the threat of censorship loomed large and suppressed many. In the real world, people communicate, not trounce and attack.

  192. You just presumed he was something he is not.

    Outside of Marty’s blog there is a world of information. Here is who Martin Ruston is:

  193. Well, its true. Bob Minton another one who was put through a comparable hell. So was Cynthia Kisser formerly of the now owned Scientology run The Cult Awareness Network. Squirrel Busters were overt, almost pablum in comparison.

    You might find it helpful to read up on the history of how the church attacked it’s perceived enemies in the past . You probably missed much of it while you were in the Sea Org. Makes for a clearer understanding.

  194. martin ruston

    Marty – you are in a dilemma here aren’t you? You don’t know which of my posts to lets through or which to cut. You don’t know what reply to make that puts me in my place but doesn’t make you look bad to your sycophants.

    All very amusing.

    However you are doing miscavidge’s job for him. By attacking people that can’t defend themselves you work for miscavidge.

    Having me come here to defend someone and getting into a tangle does miscavidge’s job for him.

    I don’t want that and I’m sure you don’t.

    Giving up detracting those that went before is the best advise I can give.

    After all those that left the cofs 30 years ago because of miscavidge were/are a lot more astute than those only just leaving 20 or 30 years later. Logical or what?

    Truce? Please smart answers are very visible and just make you look silly.

  195. Tony DePhillips

    Ok Jim.
    I thought you might want some feed back. I guess not.
    You have many, many plus points, I just wanted to say what I thought. I got that you couldn’t care less. That’s cool. I still love you though.

  196. martyrathbun09

    I haven’t presumed a single thing. Your communication characterizes my words in the prism of a fixed (and quite irrational) obsession to defend a guy who attacked as the victim, despite the quite apparent facts to the contrary. You think, act and communicate like a cult member. Grow up or find another forum.

  197. Tony DePhillips

    There are many good people that no longer consider themselves Scientologists anymore. Jeff Hawkins, Matt Pesch, Amy Scobee, Mike Laws, etc. In my opinion most of these people suffered prisoner of war camp, torturous treatment and the fact that they no longer personally like the philosophy is no reason to think less of them.

    Maybe they are not playing the game of creating or protecting Scientollogy anymore and from that view they are not as “responsible” in some peoples minds. I would say that most of them are still taking HUGE responsibility for cleaning up the playing field and are very valuable and kind people.

  198. You just presumed he was something he is not.
    Or maybe he presumed to make make some 3d party and get away with it.

    And I don’t know who you are, but I can read and think for myself.
    Compare the following comments:
    #comment-192859 your comment
    #comment-192904 Martins comment

    You tell me.

  199. martyrathbun09

    Let us stay focused on the unfocus with which this thread began. I made a simple factual statement, David Mayo was bought off. Somebody launched a vicious attack on me in response – and never refuted the original factual statement, in fact confirmed that Mayo lied to his loyal followers by saying he wasn’t bought off. I know for a fact he was. Now, we are comparing Jeff, Matt, Amy, and Mike – all people I people I consider friends – to Mayo? There is no comparison in my opinion. I consider Jeff, Matt, Amy and Mike my friends because, among other things, they would never even consider the possibility of being bought off by David Miscavige, let alone do so. Just making who I am and where I stand clear, I don’t respect anyone who would walk for money.

  200. Tony DePhillips

    Hi Marty,
    My point is this, I don’t know David Mayo personally. I have read a lot about how he was screwed over by the cult (big time) (thrown in a Dominican Republic jail with toilet facilities and such) and that he was appointed Senior C/S Int by Ron. He had to have had some major plus points. I don’t like to see the guy rundown, just as I don’t like to see you being run down by some here for what you did when you were in the cult. My point is that we all have committed some overts. I agree that taking money to be silenced is not good. I think hitting people is not good. Maybe somoday David Mayo will want to get handled but I still feel he was a trail blazer in fighting dm. He was trying to do something when we were still all in ARC with the cult and doing their bidding. To me he deserves some Kudos. The cult likes to utterly condemn people for their “overts”. Part of my resignation came from seeing how Sea Org members were treated. I don’t see why Mayo has to be run down here. I really don’t. You don’t like him becasue he sold out. Some don’t like you for what you did while in the Sea Org. I see you are making ammends now. Maybe he will in the future. Shit, this guy may be dying for all we know. He fought dm, that gives him a few credits in the plus column in my book. Maybe I am off topic, I guess shit happens. Wanted to speak my mind.

  201. Tony,
    What on earth do these people listed have to do with a conversation about David Mayo? I sure don’t know, and there is no A=A of them with any other in my universe. Nor among them. They aren’t each other, and they sure aren’t David Mayo.

    P.S. I sitll love you too, Tony.

  202. martyrathbun09

    What is bothersome is that people keep dubbing in and evaluating for me. I say something, it gets altered and the thing won’t as-is – and invariably the topic goes off topic. I never said I did not “like” him. I never “condemned” him and I never “ran him down.” “Some don’t like you for what you did in the Sea Org”, you say. Difference is I am fine by that. “I see you are making ammends now” – if think that is what I am doing, you would be quite wrong. I am so far beyond that it ain’t even funny. Mayo’s “friends” are still in your words, “the cult likes to utterly condemn people for their overts”. And thus, I’ll repeat what I said to Mary M – who was supporting just that on behalf of Mayo – man, there is still quite some de-cultification that is needed around here.

  203. Yes, indeed, Marty, you say truthfully: “A wise man once noted that if one knows of out ethics and doesn’t do anything about it, after a while of doing nothing about it he becomes an accomplice.”

    With that spirit, I note the following … independent scientologists are not, necessarily, the be all and end all of existence. They make mistakes, they are out-ARC, they fail at their posts. We need to make sure that we do not fall into the trap of assuming that just because an independent scientologist is a “Class XII”, “Class VIII” or was trained by David Mayo or even LRH that they automatically get a free pass when their behavior is inappropriate.

    What I refer to is this … on Saturday, I was supposed to “meet” my “Class XII C/S” (at least that is how this Auditor was introduced to me every time we “met”) over the internet, to continue a program this Auditor had devised to help me with a particular problem I have been having … which particular problem sometimes shows up as a ‘short fuse’ when faced with what I consider to be rude, inappropriate or otherwise inconsiderate behavior. I waited for 20 minutes for this Auditor to come on the line. Just as I had done in the 10 or 15 previous sessions. I even sent an email about 10 minutes before the appointed time advising this Auditor that I was ready at any time. I then checked my email at least once a minute to see if the Auditor’s invitation had come through. The appointed time came and went. I kept checking my email. I did not want to phone the Auditor, as I know she is very, very, very, very, very busy and might still be in session with someone else. I figured she had a good reason for being late. I kept checking my email to see if I received the invitation. 9 minutes after the appointed time, I was phoned by the Auditor’s “Admin” who started off inquiring as to why I had “not” accepted the Auditor’s invitation. No attempt to find out, actually, what had happened, if, in fact, I had been diligent. Just an immediate assumption that I was wasting the Auditor’s time. (In fact it was the other way ’round, but never mind that.) So, I said I had been there waiting for almost 1/2 and hour, and no, I had not received any invitation. So, this Admin sent me an invitation again. This time it worked. (Later after the Auditor, upset at my defense of myself in the face of her wholly undeserved criticism of me, refused to start the session, I discovered that I had, in fact, received both invitations, the original one and the new one, but that they both arrived 9 minutes late). And the Admin came on the line and let me know that the “Class XII C/S” will now come on the line. Instead of trying to create some ARC, this Auditor, for her very first statement, started berrating me for being late and then telling me that it was my “burden”, if I did not hear from her Admin by the appointed time, to phone her Office for check on what was going on. Nevermind that this was not how things had been handled for any of the last 10-15 sessions we had had. I said that I had been there for 20 or so minutes before the appointed time … and attempted to explain that I was merely following the procedure her Admin had set up in the past (if not explicitly then by actual practice) and she cut me off and said I’d need to work this out with her Admin … and simply got off the line without waiting for any response from me. Then her Admin came on the line and started lecturing me about being late, and it was my job, in the future to telephone him 5 minutes before the appointed time … and so on and so forth … and by this time, I was rather perturbed at being blamed and made wrong for what is, basically my Class XII C/S Auditor’s and her Admin’s out-admin, and, as you would expect, the very ‘short fuse’ we had been handling took hold and I said some uncomplimentary, albeit absoutely true, things, in a rather loud tone of voice, about how I felt I had been treated. The Admin told me that it was entirely inappropriate for me to be speaking “this way” about “my auditor” … and things deteriorated from there.

    I have now discharged this Auditor, and I wish her well.

    What I know, now, however, is that “credentials” do not make even the slightest difference. The Proof, so to speak, is in the Pudding. Prior to connecting with this Class XII C/S, I had had remarkable and life changing wins with a “lowly” Class IV? Class VI? I am not sure what his credentials were. Whatever they are, and whatever corrections someone else, upon review, may find (if any) in his work product/auditing, all I know is that he NEVER treated me like I was there to serve him, he was NEVER out-ARC with me, he NEVER lectured me about how I was wasting his time before finding out what actually happened (actually, he never lectured me at all).

    I am clearly responsible for all of this.

    I am responsible for choosing my independent scientology auditor.

    And, everyone who reads this is, similarly, responsible for choosing their own independent scientology auditor wisely.

  204. Tony DePhillips

    I think we would need a comm cycle to resolve this Marty. If you are saying that I still need de-cultifying that may be true and it may be true for you also. Absolutes are unobtainable. I admire what you are doing here on the blog.
    I am just giving my opinions about how things come out. Granted you didn’t say you didn’t “like” him but you don’t respect him. If I don’t respect someone then I usually don’t like them too much. If you don’t get the point I am trying to make here then I will stop trying to make it. I feel some other people have dupicated what I am trying to say. I don’t want to make a big deal out of it. I just think David Mayo did good fighting the tyrant and he has some of my admiration for doing that.

    I’m glad you are beyond making ammends. I don’t know what you did while in the church so I don’t know what it would take to balance the scale. I would never presume to even try. With out you this attempt to dethroan dm would be nothing in my opinion.

  205. martyrathbun09


  206. Tony DePhillips

    Hi Jim,
    First off because Martin said what he said in his posts, (which may be true or untrue) you seemed to use the idea that Mayo was no longer a Scientologist as some kind of proof that he was “bad”. That is how I took it anyhow. I know they are not “each other” there is not A=A here. My point was that even if Mayo isn’t a Scientologist anymore that doesn’t make him a bad guy and I pointed out some good examples of good people who were previously key people within Scientology and no longer consider themselves Scio’s. Like I said to Marty, if you don’t get my point by now then we would probably need to talk about it sometime. Maybe at the indie party.

    Have a good one. 🙂

  207. martyrathbun09

    Scott, thanks for this. I agree with your conclusion. I would add that it well behooves someone to study of the subject a bit before simply putting your life into the hands of another, Class XII, Class 0, or otherwise.

  208. Consider this advise from the Old Man.
    LRH stated in HCO PL 30 May 71 ‘Manners’ :
    Throughout all races “bad manners” are condemed”
    Those with “bad manners” are rejected. [..]
    Arrogance and force may win domination and control but will never win acceptance and respect. [..]

  209. Good point, Tony. Well stated!
    This false idea seems to be more common than I would have expected.

  210. Hey Martin, We do need to investigate that for one reason: truth. The entire precedent of Scientology is predicated on truth as our ideal.

    Part of how we got into the mess we are in was a failure to investigate and look under various rocks. There is no reason to be afraid. Auditing works no matter what anyone else did that was wrong.

    I have had a theory for a while — it is only a theory — but perhaps the Church went PTS to all the government attacks, took on the valence of an SP, or went down the CDEI Scale. It’s not proven out because I don’t have enough data yet. But there is a distinct difference between LRH’s attitude and viewpoint during the early years — despite attacks — and what ensued in later years. I don’t believe there was anything implicitly wrong with KSW. But when we started throwing people in the lake and condemning people…

    Another huge outpoint we have all seen: the names of people lauded as the “greatest Scientologists” at the time — Wing and Smokey Angel, Reg Sharpe, Herbie or Jack Parkhouse, John McMasters — all these people. You hear LRH talking about them at the beginning of lectures. And they all ended up declared or cast aside as squirrels or suppressives. That is a huge outpoint.

    Part of what I came to realize before I started was that — no one is perfect, even LRH. That’s just the nature of the universe. It’s wrong to expect LRH never made a mistake. Even he admits to them. RJ 68 us a good example, where he cancelled disconnection. But this doesn’t explain why it all happened in the first place.

  211. excellent post, very informative. I’m wondering why the other specialists of this sector do not realize this. You must proceed your writing. I am sure, you have a great readers’ base already!

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