Scientology Inc “Justice”

The following is what L Ron Hubbard had to say about the state of the United States Department of Justice’s investigative arm in 1979.  Irrespective of how exaggerated his rancor might have been about the target of his wrath, it seems to me to be a rather chillingly accurate description of David Miscavige’s Scientology Inc in the year 2012.

The FBI charter mews about safeguarding the populace but hides and is utterly disregarded by an organization whose principles are carefully planned wholly on terrorism and conducts itself more lawlessly than any criminal it ever listed as Public Enemy #1.  Who is Public Enemy #1 today?   The FBI!  Its obvious target is every opinion leader and public-spirited group in America!  To the FBI their own charter is not only a subject for mirth but the Constitution itself which they are sworn to uphold is just garbage which impedes their headlong terror zeal.  In the name of “justice” and even calling themselves the Justice Department they practice every conceivable perversion of injustice.  With their terror tools, preferring lies to fact, they have created a police state in which no man, woman or child or even a politician is safe, either from downstats or the FBI. To the FBI all men are guilty and can’t be proven innocent, and behind her bandaged eyes, Justice herself weeps.  In the name of “justice” they have condemned this society to death.  – HCO PL 25 March 1979 A New Hope for Justice

UPDATE 4/12/12:  A number of people took issue with my having had the temerity to characterize L Ron Hubbard’s words as “rancorous” and “exaggerated.”   When I replied to some comments with context that LRH wrote this while the church was desperately attempting to position the FBI as a Nazi organization that had desecrated the Constitution by raiding a church – when that church had committed serial, document “heinous” crimes over many years, some took issue with my use of the word “heinous.”

In my opinion, you kids are demonstrating that the cult think, thought stopping that membership in the church of Scientology can create can also have continuing effects even after discontinuing membership.

My use of the words “exaggerated”, “rancor”, and “heinous” are automatically challenged apparently on some stimulus-response basis.  I carefully chose those words out of respect for and so as not to attack the character of the author of that which I was commenting upon.  I could have used far more judgmental and critical terms and still been 100% accurate.

Here is your context.  In July 1977 the FBI conducted the largest raid in U.S. history of the Guardians Office offices in LA and Washington DC.  The church spent the next two years frantically litigating to have the raid declared illegal, so as to suppress evidence collected in the raids. By March 1979 L Ron Hubbard had secluded himself from all but a handful of messengers.  He only ever saw his own wife on a couple of closely guarded moments for the rest of his life because of the security measures implemented to keep him safe from the controversy surrounding the case of United States vs. Mary Sue Hubbard, et al.  (indictment issued when it became apparent that the validity of the raids would be upheld by the courts)

Mary Sue Hubbard and the other eight high level Guardians Office members indicted all agreed to be judged by a judge on the charge of Obstruction of Justice on a stipulated record before a judge (they agreed to the facts upon which they were ultimately convicted).

All the while church members were being steadily indoctrinated continually that the entire controversy was solely and utterly about the US Department of Justice and the FBI executing an attempt to destroy the technology of Scientology.

The following link describes in time, place, form and event fashion – most of which was taken directly from documents obtained from Guardian’s Office files – what crimes it was that the Department of Justice and FBI were investigating and for which they convicted church members:

The Sentencing Memorandum

If after having read that document in full, you still want to argue about the intent and accuracy of the quoted paragraph at the outset of this post, my response to you is that you are still in denial.

296 responses to “Scientology Inc “Justice”

  1. One of the tougher parts to get through for people is to read this stuff and look at the scene in the CofS and reconcile it in their own universe, since it’s such a departure.

    So, is it all an hypocrisy? Just a bunch of lip service? Or, does the material apply, even to “Scientology”?

    The above description of injustice applies to any injustice and today, Dave’s groups is king when it comes to injustice.

  2. Great quote, and the relevancy to Darth Midget’s ‘church’ is entirely appropriate. That exactly describes their beingness and behavior.

  3. And if that isn’t a big enough problem…

  4. The above link is your comm line to David MIscavage! Since nobody else is actually IN RTC. YOU CAN ALWAYS WRITE TO DAVE!
    All emails addressed to RTC shall be received by Dave!. This is the NEW SO#1. line!
    And what did the Church “Intelligence” do to Ron’s personal SO#1 line? They perverted it to police state activities:

    Hubbard said police cause crime. OSA are police and need to feel valuable also. God forbid they wake up tomorrow and there is no “crime” in Scientology! They might get transferred to positions where they actually have to SERVE somebody!

  5. retiredfromthechurch

    Back in the day ‘justice’ meant something in the CoS, especially when LRH was alive. Since DM took over in the early 80s with his SRAs and ‘group’ sec checks where several execs fired questions at those who held the cans and when satisfactory answers were not forthcoming and execs would get slammed into file cabinets by Int Execs like what happened in the San Francisco Foundation Org just prior to the Mission Holder’s Conference, there then ushered in a drastic change in the concept of ‘justice’.

    This new concept of justice became INJUSTICE IN THE NAME OF JUSTICE.

    Justice was defined by whatever DM desired it to be. And because he had everyone snowed and conned into believing that his concerpt of justice was LRH’s concept of justice, everyone who came in contact with him bought it.

    Emulating DM enabled one to survive until DM went nuts and then emulating took the wrong turn and then there wasn’t anything anyone could do to stay in DM’s good graces.

    So now we have the embodiment of those leaders/dictators of the past who couldn’t trrust those beneath them – Napoleon, Stalin, Hitler, Caligula and on and on.

    Now the CoS has turned into the Co$ and I am sure that if beheading were somehow legal, they would be occurring at Int…and at Flag.

  6. threefeetback

    DM, EH, BO: peas in a pod

  7. Pretty powerful. Interesting how this was written on the FBI, but now suits the COS very well. They claim they are a church but they definitely “practice every conceivable perversion of injustice”. “With their terror tools, preferring lies to fact, they have created a police state in which no man, woman or child or even a politician is safe…” Great post.

  8. I am just curious as to whether or not there is a context for this quote that could be provided that might allow it to be better understood.

    I am trying to recall what Scientology was up against in 1979. I know that I was busy rummaging through files in the USGO, part of a team to make things seem a little snowier white…

    Also, is this from a policy letter or advice or…?

  9. (I was never in the GO; there were a lot of SO crew brought in for a time to just paw through file cabinets.)

  10. Mary Sue plead GUILTY Dave! She admitted up and took responsibility and faced the consequences. Will you plead GUILTY Dave? Don’t try to hang yourself from the door knob!

  11. I seem to remember this. I’m curious, was this a quote from one of the articles LRH wrote for Freedom Magazine back in the day when Freedom was actually a champion for human rights and worked to expose injustice?
    In any event, the parallel IS chilling.
    ……Fast forward to 2012…….
    “To the (RTC and David Miscavige) their own (scriptures are) not only a subject for mirth but (Tech and Policy) itself which they are sworn to uphold is just garbage which impedes their headlong (avaricious) zeal. In the name of “(Ethics)” and even calling themselves the (Most Ethical Group on the Planet) they practice every conceivable perversion of (Ethics). With their (Squirrel Buster Productions), preferring lies to fact, they have created an (atmosphere of fear) in which no man, woman or child (who questions their out tech, reverse technology and off policy), (even highly trained and experienced Scientologists), are safe from either from downstats or the (RTC). To (David Miscavige and the RTC) all men are guilty and can’t be proven innocent, and behind her bandaged eyes, Justice herself weeps. In the name of “justice” they have condemned this society to death.”

    Yes, chilling. But I don’t think that the independent field is frozen in fear of these misguided souls. Fortunately the independent field has been inspired, and intends to have an insurrection, a resurrection, and finally a vindication of LRH tech and of people of good will…..thanks in no small measure to this Blog.

  12. I have often wondered whether Miscavige is the real SP, he’s so “visible”. Is there a possibility that, at the time of Ron’s death there was a group of conspiritors who placed DM upfront and orders him to do whatever they tell him? It doesn’t change his betrayal but light may be thrown on a “hidden” agenda.

  13. Oh boy, J. Edgar, wherever he is now, is popeyed and his head is spinning like in “The Exorcist”!
    But that does seem like a perfect evaluation of Miscavige’s “church”. If Miscavige could extend his reach, he would turn the whole country into his own version of North Korea.

    Certainly folks like J. Edgar and Senator Joe McCarthy tried to steer the whole country in that direction, along with groups like the Ku Klux Klan. Now there was a real winner……

    There are Fascist currents that flow through the human psyche…….

    LRH spoke of Scientology as “Man’s last call to Reason.” Is Man up to it?

  14. Theo Sismanides


    Exaggerated? Exaggerated rancor? I disagree, utterly. I think LRH was not reasonable with Suppressives. This is a discussion in itself. Miscavige is not the only SP on the planet. As a matter of fact I don’t know how far he has gone to safeguard that Scientology is NOT gonna make it.

    Sorry but this is reasonableness.

  15. Theo Sismanides

    And the FBI instead of investigating Scientology just lets Miscavige reign. Reasonableness? Nooooo…. they just follow orders from above. So LRH was surely not exaggerating when saying they prefer lies to facts and that Justice weeps behind her bandaged eyes.

  16. scilonschools

    “rather chillingly accurate description of David Miscavige’s Scientology Inc in the year 2012”

    +1 to that!!, and it appears that their influence sweeps far beyond the walls of the Org, into ‘polite’ society!!

  17. “Some even believe we (the Rockefeller family) are part of a secret cabal working against the best interests of the United States, characterizing my family and me as ‘internationalists’ and of conspiring with others around the world to build a more integrated global political and economic structure – one world, if you will. If that’s the charge, I stand guilty, and I am proud of it.”
    – David Rockefeller, Memoirs, page 405

    “We are grateful to the Washington Post, The New York Times, Time Magazine and other great publications whose directors have attended our meetings and respected their promises of discretion for almost forty years… It would have been impossible for us to develop our plan for the world if we had been subjected to the lights of publicity during those years. But, the world is now more sophisticated and prepared to march towards a world government. The supranational sovereignty of an intellectual elite and world bankers is surely preferable to the national auto-determination practiced in past centuries.”
    – David Rockefeller, Bilderberg Meeting, June 1991 Baden, Germany

    And is it not interesting that David Miscavige & Co. are programming the material audited on OT III to VII and putting that material into the unexpecting lives of other people, who can then be controlled in the most gruesome ways and become seriously ill. And putting the material back into the spaces of those that are auditing these levels, so that they have a hard time completing them. And by that
    is doing some of the most interesting Black Scientology that we have seen.

    And is it not interesting that David Miscavige was a Xenu-helper?

    And that he and his renegades are now DRAMATIZING what they did 75 million years ago here on Earth?

    Hi David Miscavige.

  18. Was LRH’s “rancor exaggerated”? Google FBI’s “cointelpro”. 85% of cointelpro budget used to investigate suspected communists, civil rights leaders, Vietnam war protesters etc. and 15% of budget to investigate Ku Klux Klan hate crimes.

  19. Pretty Chilling. Did L. Ron Hubbard say this before or after Operation Snow White?

  20. E.J. Croughs

    Unfortunately no rancor nor wrath but an analytical account of the state of affairs then, still true today. In Europe we still fight a central control, the only way for the elite to grab total power. America lost long time ago.

  21. Very well observed. The parallels between the FBI and Scn Inc. are uncanny. It could actually read: To DM all men are guilty and can’t be proven innocent, and behind her bandaged eyes, Justice herself weeps. In the name of “justice” DM and his robotic minions have condemned Scientology to death.

    Where did you find this? Has this ever been published somewhere?


  22. This little blurb makes me wish I were an FBI agent. However, most work in the FBI is pretty mundane.

  23. 1979 is well after Snow White

  24. Ask the KoolAid drinkers how visiblehe is as an SP….

  25. Tom Gallagher

    “When any government, or church for that matter, undertakes to say to it’s subjects, this you may not read, this you must not see, this you are forbidden to know the end result is tyranny and oppression, no matter how
    holy the motive.” Robert Heinlein

  26. Have you seen this? It’s an ad for Birmingham Ideal Org fundraising. I thought it was odd because it uses the “What do you get?” and shows a bunch of empty seats.

  27. HCO PL 25 March 1979 A New Hope For Justice

  28. Don’t try to hang yourself from the door knob!


  29. scilonschools

    I watched the documetary on WACO SIEGE the other day, when they had footage of an FBI agent dragging one of the Davidians (?) out of the burning building at full inferno, moments before it’s ebtire collapse,, and she was fighting tooth& nail to escape her rescuer and re-enter the bonfire !
    Kool Aide ican be off the scale potent stuff !!

  30. Lisa Marie … come on!

  31. Random Stranger


    1) Short

    2) Mean

    3) Dictatorial

    4) Questionably close manly relationships

    5) Luxurious living

    6) Liars

    7) Blackmailers

    8) Microscopic managers

    9) Bullies

    10) Dubious rise to power

    11) Rants

    12) Little doggies

    13) Fine dining

    14) Threats

    15) Lisp

    16) Weird hair

    17) Crazy eyes

    18) Shoe fetish

    19) Money crimes

    20) Obsessed with image

    21) Handkerchief in pocket

    22) Puffy cheeks

    23) Incipient nervous tics

    24) Servants

    25) Know-it-alls

    26) Secret files

    27) Custom-made shirts and dresses

    28) Hypocrites

    29) Black PR

    30) Napoleon complex

    31) In power too long

    32) Booze hounds

    33) Walk with tight ass cheeks

    34) Three initials in name of agency

    35) Hide out in a compound

    36) Private jet

    37) Spies

    38) Harassment

    39) Loyal lackeys

    40) Bed-wetters

    41) Pants-poopers

    42) Rod-grabbers

    43) Nose-pickers

    44) Laundry obsession

    45) Thought control

    46) Evil-doers

    47) Underwear-sniffers

    48) Gamblers

    49) Usurpers

    50) Small wee-wees

  32. martyrathbun09

    Thanks, you got it.

  33. I’d say LRH was being a bit dramatic but I agree with the underlying sentiments and would extend it to all law enforcement in Canada, USA and UK (where I have experience of it) to varying degrees; some are worse than others.

    I don’t think it dramatises David Miscavige’s regime, that would be hard to do. It certainly doesn’t exaggerate it.

  34. martyrathbun09

    HCO PL 25 March 1979 A New Hope for Justice. What Scientology was up against was an FBI raid that netted tens of thousands of documents outlining years of organized, heinous felonies being run from its external affairs headquarters (the Guardians Office). There was massive litigation at that time seeking to find the raid itself unconstitutional in order to suppress those documents from being used as evidence. That was unsuccessful and 5 months later the indictment was issued by a Grand Jury. What the church was engaged in in early 79 was desperately attempting to position the Department of Justice as Nazi’s raiding and persecuting a little church in the vale.

  35. They are not trained to see an omitted any more. Maybe a few.

  36. martyrathbun09

    I think you are being misemotional in making a judgment like that. I apply the Data Series day in and day out (where reasonableness is best defined – particularly the confront of evil idea). To call this statement rational and accurate would be the epitome of reasonableness.

  37. Your humble servant

    I do not know what “years of organized, heinous felonies” you would be talking about, Marty. What I recall from the federal prosecutions of the G.O. members was that it was reported that G.O. operatives had infiltrated certain government offices and unlawfully copied documents. It being the U.S. government that was the “victim” of these embarrassing intrustions, these were prosecuted as horrible crimes. What other documented heinous felonies are you talking about?

  38. Judas was Christ’s ( if you believe he was a true historical personage, which I do) best marketing agent.

    Mao distributed Tibeten Buddhism globally through his invasion.

    And Miscavige is the unwitting well wisher of the Free Scientologist.

    We need a nice burning fire to cause ashes for the Pheonix to be born.

    Darkness can be a stepping stool for the wise to get up a little higher and see farther.

  39. Your humble servant

    How do you know that she wasn’t trying to get back in to rescue a child? The FBI Waco seige is perfect example of the FBI’s suppressive nature. They did not have to surround, antagonize, torment, and finally bring about the fiery destruction of that group (regardless of how the fire really started, it only started after the FBI had tormented the group for days or weeks by surrounding them, shutting off utilities, blaring loud music at them, and threatening them). If they wanted to arrest David Koresh, they could easily have done so. He came into town on a frequent basis. The whole operation was a horrible, unjustifiable crime. After the holocaust, the “justice” department prosecuted and convicted the defenders. A shameful, heartbreaking miscarriage of justice.

  40. The SO1 line was a point of sanity in the church when Ron was alive. It was and should have been used as an excellent indicator of what is right and wrong with the churches (and the system in general). I bunked with the SO1 team when I was at Flag, and they were a great group. The link you gave made it seem somehow clandestine. No, it was what it was – a comm line to Ron, and Ron used it to help improve conditions.

    That said, I have no idea what happened to the line in the early ’80s – but the line itself was an excellent thing.

  41. yvonneschick

    … or she was fighting in a primal attempt to rescue her children.

  42. Interesting that you call it “Heinous.” If you’re talking about “Snow White,” I think it was Heinous that they got caught but being at odds the suppressive tactics that the government used at the time has some arguable justification. I never would have signed up for waltzing into government offices and photo copying documents but you have to admit it was a pretty amazing that they were able to do that at the level they did. To date, it is described as the greatest infiltration of the US Government ever. I see it as a group of OT’s vs real enemies in the government. Being that you were in such a high position in the COS you may have been privy to data that makes “Snow White” more a more despicable act. I, (like many others) believe that LRH was well aware of the operation. If you have any data about that I would be very interested hearing about it.

  43. E.J. Croughs

    Correct, I like to know as well. Too bad MSH took the bait from the lawyers and kept it in her desk.

  44. You nailed it as far as that Waco seige. It was a total travesty of justice. Heads should have rolled, but Clinton and his crony Janet Reno got a pass, as usual. Just like they did at Ruby Ridge and with Elian Gonzales too.

  45. E.J. Croughs

    Exactly, what rancor?
    It’s all released and admitted:

  46. Jean-Francois Genest

    Yes, the needle floats on this item. Accurate parallel.
    David Miscavidge fits the description. Plus, he practices terrorism, yet gets away with it. If his name was Dhul Fiqar Mash’al, he would certainly be “investigated” in this day and age.
    Dhul Fiqar = Name of the Prophet’s sword
    Mash’al = torch

  47. Random Stranger


  48. Jean-Francois Genest

    There is a Christ Protestant church 5 minutes walk from my residence. I attended services in the fall to check it out. It actually feels GOOD to BE in that SMALL building.
    The minister and the folk who attend it are very welcoming and caring. They CARE about children and people in general. They get involved in the community and do VERY GOOD deeds.
    Now, I stopped going due to my college schedule and employment schedule.

    I can’t believe it! ► They DON’T harass me! They DON’T have PIs staking out accross the street and video-recording my every move! They don’t follow me everywhere I go. They don’t call me, don’t e-mail me, nor come knocking on my door demanding money. They never even thought of creating a CIA-FBI copy agency Office of ‘Special’ Affairs. They have NEVER harassed me or coerced me to donate money, yet they GIVE ME FREE coffee, tea and treats after EACH service.

    Wow! This CAN’T be a CHURCH. Please help me understand and clear my misunderstood word.

  49. Careful now with expressing a desire to have a nice big fire from which the phoenix can rIse. I know you are speaking purely metaphorically but some rabid Political Correct types might interpret that as an incitement to religious hatred (a crime in the UK) as in a thinly veiled call to fire bomb orgs.


    Allergy warning: I say that with only part of my tongue in my cheek; it’s amazing and somewhat distressing what some people get in to trouble for these days.

  50. martyrathbun09

    You sound much like Miscavige. Perhaps the difference is that he is fully aware of the scope and detail of the acts at issue. If I were talking about Snow White, I’d have said it. If it were just about SNow White, the GO would have been victorious. You can begin your education here, the Sentencing Memorandum in US v Hubbard: I’ve cued it up to page 56 because that is where the heinous really begins. But you should read the whole thing before you go taking offense with things of which you do not know. If after having read all that – and taking it as true, as the Guardian’s Office did (pleading guilty on a stipulated record for posterity) – you still want to challenge “heinous”, then God bless you.

  51. I believe that raid also discovered the evidence that exhonorated Paulette Cooper; she’d been jailed having been found guilty of sending bomb threats.

    During the raid the FBI discovered documents detailing the Guardian Offices’ operation to set Paulette Cooper up.

    I believe the same documents revealed how they’d narrowly failed to have her “commit suicide” by having a GO operative befriend her becoming her closest friend and confident.

    Operation Freakout I believe it was called. Investigative types might be able to find the records of the trial and the evidence presented.

  52. Random Stranger

    Yeah, but according to my observations and experience going back to the 70’s, most of the Ron letters were fake. Signed either by a machine or someone trained in his signature. It was a big fat lie.

    The vast majority of letters were not received by LRH nor read by him nor signed by him, yet people were led to believe, as incredible as it may seem, that if you wrote a letter to Ron he received it and answered it, even if he happened to be two continents away and his magic return letter miraculously arrives two days later. Yeah.

    The idea of the SO #1 line was a very nice idea, but a false line, expected to be blindly believed in.

    Only one time I did see an actual hand-written response from LRH, jotted on the right-hand border of one of the SO #1 fake form responses that someone else typed and signed, to a veteran Sea Org member who he evidently knew personally and was close to.

    Otherwise, at least from the early Seventies on, they were fake letters from ‘Ron’.

    Fake. From ‘Ron’. We nicknamed them ‘Letters from Fron’ or ‘Fron Letters’. Fascinatingly enough however, I have seen ‘Fron Letters’ sell on eBay to ScientoZombie collectors thinking they are real.

    Illusions can be fun, but when it morphs into a delusional belief based on someone else’s ideas the contract with the devil to hand over your self-determinism and awareness is now ratified and the price you pay is mandatory delusion.









  53. Incidentally the GO didn’t just inflitrate certain Government offices and illegally copy a few documents, they purpetrated the largest ever infiltration of US Government Offices even to this day.

    I think that freak the establishment a bit since they were busy looking for commies. The communists failed miserably to come remotely close to the achievement of the GO.

    I gather David Miscavige is keen to get his scientologists close to world leaders. His scientologists will of course do his bidding regardless of other allegences.

  54. retiredfromthechurch

    Every day a parishioner is declared SP a new Guy Fawkes is born. One could say that the Indie 500 list is made up of Guy Fawkeses. Only difference is that Guy threatened violence, Indies promise exposure and love and peace.

  55. I’ve always observed that honesty is the toughest activity a group can have, seldom if ever does a group look upon their actions with a conscience. It takes a mighty powerful person indeed to stand in front of a group and convince them they have made an error. Much preferred is a head in the sand approach and follow the leader. A new future is always appealing when things go belly up and offers the only solution to the uneducated.
    LRH knew what he saw but in the same way we now face the insanity of group stupidity emminating from Miscavige’s organisational reign, but how do you communicate to robots?
    Law Enforcement Organisations – geeze… ponder those words – especially Enforcement!
    I reckon the Data Series is one of the toughest things to apply and master. At every turn the resistance to sanity just seems to multiply. To my ear I’ve heard LRH use every approach possible to communicate what he knew, from the fire and brimstone in the Finance series to the compassion and understanding in the technical bulletins and his rich imagination as an author served him many times. I believe in his sincerity of trying to communicate a very tough subject (honesty) in as many ways as possible to strike a reality in the reader. What is true to for you is true, no other granting of beingness compares.
    All in all, you’ve never really been in any other universe than your own. There’s rules to universes, how well do you know them? Force is such a limited solution and begets destruction all too easily.

  56. Free tea!? You know they’re up to something when they give you free tea; they must be after something, child slave labor perhaps or the deeds to your house or something. I hope they don’t give you cake or biscuits too, that can only mean they’re after your eternal being. Run for the hills.

    Allergy warning: the above comment may contain traces of stupidity and light hearted sarcasm.

  57. Investigative types…

    Or Marty could just provide the goods.

  58. martyrathbun09

    Post updated as follows based on comments that I found to be remarkable:
    UPDATE 4/12/12: A number of people took issue with my having had the temerity to characterize L Ron Hubbard’s words as “rancorous” and “exaggerated.” When I replied to some comments with context that LRH wrote this while the church was desperately attempting to position the FBI as a Nazi organization that had desecrated the Constitution by raiding a church – when that church had committed serial, document “heinous” crimes over many years, some took issue with my use of the word “heinous.”

    In my opinion, you kids are demonstrating that the cult think, thought stopping that membership in the church of Scientology can create can also have continuing effects even after discontinuing membership.

    My use of the words “exaggerated”, “rancor”, and “heinous” are automatically challenged apparently on some stimulus-response basis. I carefully chose those words out of respect for and so as not to attack the character of the author of that which I was commenting upon. I could have used far more judgmental and critical terms and still been 100% accurate.

    Here is your context. In July 1977 the FBI conducted the largest raid in U.S. history of the Guardians Office offices in LA and Washington DC. The church spent the next two years frantically litigating to have the raid declared illegal, so as to suppress evidence collected in the raids. By March 1979 L Ron Hubbard had secluded himself from all but a handful of messengers. He only ever saw his own wife on a couple of closely guarded moments for the rest of his life because of the security measures implemented to keep him safe from the controversy surrounding the case of United States vs. Mary Sue Hubbard, et al. (indictment issued when it became apparent that the validity of the raids would be upheld by the courts)

    Mary Sue Hubbard and the other eight high level Guardians Office members indicted all agreed to be judged by a judge on the charge of Obstruction of Justice on a stipulated record before a judge (they agreed to the facts upon which they were ultimately convicted).

    All the while church members were being steadily indoctrinated continually that the entire controversy was solely and utterly about the US Department of Justice and the FBI executing an attempt to destroy the technology of Scientology.

    The following link describes in time, place, form and event fashion – most of which was taken directly from documents obtained from Guardian’s Office files – what crimes it was that the Department of Justice and FBI were investigating and for which they convicted church members:

    The Sentencing Memorandum

    If after having read that document in full, you still want to argue about the intent and accuracy of the quoted paragraph at the outset of this post, my response to you is that you are still in denial.

  59. Random Stranger











  60. martyrathbun09

    The church of Scientology International’s board members and WDC members and ED Int executed affidavits in a number of US Federal District Court houses in the early 80’s. Those affidavits swore that the SO #1 line had been manned by a number of secretaries for many years before and up to the early 80’s who handled and responded to LRH correspondence without his supervision. That is not to say LRH did not correspond to people outside church staff positions regularly up to the early 80s.

  61. Random Stranger

    Does it take an ‘OT’ to conspire to break the law, steal IDs, pick a lock, use stolen keys and lies and covert methods to gain surreptitious and illegal entry into government offices in order to commit crimes?

  62. martyrathbun09

    See update to post. For Freakout, etc see page 55 to the end of the memorandum.

  63. martyrathbun09

    Thanks RS – glad to know that someone has done some homework here. See update to post.

  64. Have to pick myself up off the floor now Marty. If I needed any further proof you are free from “cult think” I believe that’s it.

    Erm, speechless.

  65. Thanks Marty, appreciate the data. I do view your blog as opportunity to educate and in some cases re-educate myself.

  66. Your humble servant


    Thank you for taking the trouble to post more details.

    I see no need for you to address the posters here in a disparaging manner, calling them kids, suggesting they are engaging in “cult think”, and stating that they are “in denial”, No doubt you are better informed about it than we are, but It is our perrogative to question anything,

    While the underlying purpose of Ron’s statement may have been exactly as you say (and it did seem to me to theatrical and possibly overstated), the actual activities of the FBI over the past 60 or so years certainly do merit some scathing criticism.

  67. martyrathbun09

    I guess I need an editor.

  68. Marty,

    I’m with you on this one.

    LRH had to use a toilet just like the rest of us. This is because he had a body, just like the rest of us. He got angry and irrational at times, just like the rest of us. He probably went out-ethics sometimes, just like the rest of us.

    He helped a lot of people but he isn’t a savior or a god. It was his intention that was the best part of him. He wanted to help.

    I like LRH, warts and all. In fact, the warts make him more believeable IMHO.

    What I don’t care for is a cult of brainwashed morons pretending they need to have a savior or a leader to feel safe and complete in life. Or who snap at anybody who dares to have the audacity to point out a flaw in their perfect, god-like, dub-in version of who or what LRH might or might not have been like.

  69. So your wording got some T.A. – well done!

  70. Nor is to say that earlier (ie on the Apollo) he didnt see letters and respond to them or change answers that were proposed. That was in the early 70’s, and like the Daily Reports that were sent to him by the crew, he did read many of them. The Daily Reports were responded to with handwritten notes in the corners. Alethiea Taylor and Joyce Popham handled the “SO #1” letters. As time went on, he saw fewer and fewer of the letters and by the time of Daytona/Clearwater, none. They were signed by the SO#1 unit. LRH wrote specific policies for SO#1 on how they were to answer correspondence to him. The joke at the time was that SO members who had been on the Apollo would get “SO 1” letters and know where they came from, so stopped sending personal type “letters to Ron” and would throw the “birthday greetings” and other SO 1 stuff in the trash. It’s what they were called: “SO1 letters” as a derogatory term.

  71. martyrathbun09

    If one is capable of parking his or her reason at the door for L Ron Hubbard he or she is capable of parking it for David Miscavige. In fact, if it were not for the proclivity toward the former phenomenon the latter phenomenon never would have materialized – or at best would have been something on the order of the Manson family.

  72. Your humble servant


    All that you do is sincerely appreciated. Thanks.

  73. martyrathbun09

    Btw, LRH always received summaries from the SO 1 unit, and used it as part of the multiple viewpoint system of management he created.

  74. Bryan — You expressed my sentiments precisely. Thanks for saving me the time and effort…. Mike

  75. Marty — Yes, forgot to mention that. The summaries in the end were very rudimentary, each org had a percentage of “sour SO 1 letters” and then overall percentages of subjects the SO1 letters covered in very broad terms “Birthday wishes”, “comments about orgs”, “bridge successes” sort of categories.

  76. Random Stranger

    The behind the scenes behavior of the management of the Church of Scientology was from Day One corrupt, prejudiced, clandestine, shifty, adversarial, provokative, alienating, misleading, cultish, selfish, inept and dripping with the psychoses of paranoia, revenge and self-righteousness.

    That manure made a very nice fertile ground in a dark space for growing the strain of the Poisonous Miscavige Mushroom and its symbiotes.

  77. My pleasure, Mike.

    And may I add, it’s primarily because of this blog and its unreasonableness that I have become as free as I have over the last several years.

    The more free one becomes, the faster one can detect, with laser-like precision, specks of denial and reasonableness. I’ve been corrected more than once on this blog and I’m grateful for it…..once the ser facs calm down, that is. 🙂

  78. Thanks for this info, RS.

  79. martyrathbun09

    I’d say you’ve gone too far on the other side of the pendulum with that one. The Establishment vs L Ron Hubbard game went on for 36 years – and create layer upon layer of intrigue, nuance, and every shade of gray imaginable. One sentence black and white judgments won’t work to shed light on this baby.

  80. martyrathbun09

    One other note. When the SO 1 line shifted to ED Int, it wasn’t long before even he – who ever only assayed to do 1/1000th at best of what LRH ever did in a given day – wasn’t handling letters to himself directly.

  81. Maybe some folk are just a little too serious?

  82. There is much to confront when it comes to understanding and knowing LRH. And some of it might be unpleasant.

    But the tech is the tech it either works or it doesn’t. I have found that it works.

    What a journey it has been to really find out what is under the covers when you pull them back.

  83. Dear Marty and Mike,
    Yes, exciting times. Its time to move on .
    I support Maty Rathbun and Mike Rinder as they have the experience,,
    history of change in the Church and Pan Determinism to move towards a prosurvival future on the Dynamics.Upstats tried and true.
    If I could jump into a Time Machine and go back to1933 and Kill Hitler,whos to say the future after that alteration wont be more catastropic than what already occured.
    Some times you just have to take the Bull by the Tail and Face the situation.


  84. Marty, WOOC does not automatically stop at the Indy door. MUs are what they are and cause what they cause. LRH found out a long time ago that people are way to lazy to use a dictionary, so he backed it down a bit in his own writings to avoid the enevitable HE & R. IMO.

    ML Tom

  85. Li'll bit of stuff

    Marty, would it be fair to say, that DM has actually been
    given a green light, by the fed reserve bank, to continue
    unfettered, in his subjugation of Scn and Scns via his

    “successful” mind control, Rev.Scn sec check culling of
    potential future troublemakers.
    Could it be accurately speculated, that all the suppressed or curtailed action,( ignored petitions, squashed investigations on torture, human trafficking, fraud, etc.,
    is in fact part of an agreement, between DM and his
    Erstwhile “masters?” in exchange for which which he gets to milk the wealthy,into bankruptcy, (dis empowering them) reduce the intellectual advance of (real) Scn products, effectively dumbing down the vfp’s to tractable sheeple, who thus present LESS threat of potential capability to .actualize……essentially what you are doing! Exposing
    the grand plans of those intent on turning us ALL into tractable, useful idiots, or disposable, excess humans.

    From Miscavige’s stats, (he has already proven his mettle in the ultimate SP department) I’m sure he has a
    seat reserved for him in the Boardroom,amongst his Iluminati mentors, of the New World Order boys.

  86. Your personal vested interests in destroying DM (whatever they may be) are the mutual out-ruds that attract the disgruntled and abused. However, it’s obvious that you don’t understand who LRH and MSH are, and who and what they were doing on Earth. I suggest you listed to the lecture “The Free Being” again. The FBI / IRS / FDA / TIME MAGAZINE / 2.5% SPs on Earth at the same beings who have spent Eternity setting up Theta Traps and keeping us all neatly locked up. They are not unique to Earth.
    The only thing really unique was LRH working to undo the Theta Traps and help some of us recover our memory, our Native Abilities and our Freedom to Be.
    The “laws” of Earth governments are designed to keep the iron bars of our prison slammed securely shut! So, calling LRH and MSH “criminals” is ludicrous in the extreme. It reveals an inability to confront the time track, and the inability to differentiate between Freedom and Entrapment.

  87. Well now, here is some Black Scientology right in the open!

    Attempting to feed everyone a Wrong Item, are you ?

    Attempting to restimulate OT III and stick people in it with a Wrong Item ?

    How quaint.

    Michael A. Hobson
    Independent Scientologist

  88. Or a Press Secretary? 🙂

  89. Marty has rights too! It is his perrogative to question anything too! It works both ways. He did nit address “the posters” here. That is all inclusive. He addressed one or two bawl babies.

  90. Li'll bit of stuff


  91. theo Sismanides

    Marty I will have to re-read on reasonablenss in the Data Series not because I don’t know things about being reasonable but because it would be good to get the data once more. That’s about me being misemotional.

    However, a line should be well drawn between Scientology and the Status Quo People and Organizations on this planet.

    I joined Scientology not just for the tech and the Bridge. I signed a 1 billion year contract because of a man who inspired me and made it an actuality on this planet to have an organization such as the Sea Org which would put ethics in on this planet and the universe.

    I have never abandoned the Idea of such an Organization with such purpose and I find it interesting that LRH’s first base for the Sea Org was Greece if I am not mistaken.

    LRH at times wanted to declare presidents of the United States as suppressive. Would we say that was exaggerated rancor? Wouldn’t we be and are reasonable when we don’t, as Independents, address issues which are now hot issues about how the actual SPs reign all over the planet?

    Shouldn’t we as Independents get interested in situations and issues which are happening around the Globe and which most definitely manifest the existence and the games of those SPs?

    The south of Europe right now (Greece, Italy, Spain and Portugal) are hard hit by a “crisis” which mostly has to do with those policies that the EU suppressives are imposing over the peoples of Europe. Under the auspices of the US government and of course under the direct control now of IMF.

    LRH stated the following in this reference, called Your Post.
    LRH said the following in the reference below:

    A post in a Scientology Organization isn’t a job.
    It’s a trust and a crusade.
    We’re free men and women-probably the last free
    men and women on Earth. Remember, we’ll have to
    come back to Earth some day no matter what
    “happens” to us.
    If we don’t do a good job now we may never get
    another chance.
    Yes, I’m sure that’s the way it is.
    So we have an organization, we have a field we
    must support, we have a chance.
    That’s more than we had last time night’s curtain
    began to fall on freedom.
    So we’re using that chance.
    An organization such as ours is our best chance to
    get the most done. So we’re doing it!

    Saint Hill Manor, East Grinstead, Sussex


    So the Indies now can be that very organization as a new group which every day makes progress in safeguarding Technology.

    And we now have a whole new freedom to operate from.

    As a last note I want to post a link to one of Dr. Rath’s speeches, a well-known scientist and a doctor who is fighting for a “healthy” health system and making known the value of Vitamins as LRH did, too. So please hear what he has to say about the chemical and pharmaceutical cartels and how they affect(ed) the world and their puppet politicians.

  92. I think we all respond in keeping with out experiences. One experience of mine outside this blog has been with extremist religious zealots, such as the Woodborough Baptist Church; okay so I sought it out but that and being involved in lengthy and often heated debates over young earth creationism v evolution theory in relation to lobbying efforts in the UK/USA tends to color ones responses to other aspects of religious debates. Not that any of you will have noticed that with me I’m sure. (Sarcasm).

    The closer a subject is to one’s heart the harder I believe it is to respond objectively (give the benefit of the doubt) to a given stimulus.

    I agree with Marty the whole establishment v Hubbard story is far more complex with many gray areas and with neither side being entirely righteous.

  93. Wow !
    Truth is truth and has to be confronted wholly. Only then we can liberate us from this cultish thinking. The exact place, time, form and … (can’t remember). No justification, no reasonableness. It is as it is and then you get real itsa and blowdowns on the 3rd, and sometimes the running out engrams can be tough and one has to continue to look at it and not run away !

    I knew you’ll go E/S !

    Are we yet at the basic ? Or is there more ?
    Is there an earlier similar incident where specific leading Scientologists weren’t telling the whole truth and dishonest towards their comrades and Mankind ?

    Your work to get the indies to confront that what is, is tremendous and finally it will rehabilitate the whole subject of Scientology and will be understood !

    Bright futures I see. My god, your blog is so good in helping to understand.

    Continue, continue you’ll debug it !


  94. *with out should read with our.

  95. Tits & Arse? I’m confused. 😉

  96. I have no love for David Miscavige but I don’t want to destroy him, I don’t believe in the death penalty.

    I’m interested in ending the abuse and if there is any justice seeing David Miscavige on RPF for the remainder of his days or go to prison, loose all his assets and then have to fend for himself with a criminal record. At the very least I’d like to see him stripped of all assets and have to get a real job.

    I believe there are fates worse than death. For David Miscavige that surely has to be being turn down for a job flipping burgers.

  97. Or cleaning toilets.

  98. Old cuff,

    I like this debate, you surely were a staff member of the GO or at least supporting them.
    I’d my experiences in the seventies with the GO and allready in those times i thought they are playing other games.
    I’ve seen telexes from LRH being effect to the GO and they torpeding his orders that were directed towards expansion and he being upset at them, but in this fight he lost. They were able to destroy his vision and he sounded kind of hopeless when he wanted to restore a succesful action that the GO stopped !

    Honest people can’t be hurt !


  99. FFS Marty, please stop with this rational approach. You keep flooring me!

    Next you’ll be saying LRH was the victim of his own creation.

  100. Marty —

    Thank you for the context. Fascinating. A year after the reference you quoted this was this: HCO POLICY LETTER OF 12 JULY 1980R THE BASICS OF ETHICS.

    There are a couple of things in the 12 Jul policy that make even more sense, now that the context from the time are available. (These are in order but are not consecutive in it.)

    All too often, however, the bank is triggered by an out-ethics situation; and if the individual has no tech with which to handle it analytically, his “handling” is to mock up motivators. In other words, he tends to believe or pretend that something was done to him that prompted or justified his out-ethics action, and at that point he starts downhill.

    It is not his attempt to get his ethics in that does him in. It is the automaticity of the bank which kicks in on him and his use of a bank mechanism at this point which sends him down the chute. When that happens, nobody puts him down the chute harder, really, than he does himself.

    When the individual fails to put in his own ethics, the group takes action against him and this is called justice. I have found that man cannot be trusted with justice. The truth is, man cannot really be trusted with “punishment.” With it he does not really seek discipline; he wreaks injustice. He dramatizes his inability to get his own ethics in by trying to get others to get their ethics in: I invite you to examine what laughingly passes for “justice” in our current society.

    Also thank you for mentioning Larry Wright’s book — The Looming Tower: Al-Qaeda and the Road to 9/11. Working my way through it now. There are some uncomfortable analogies between the men, ideas, philosophies, experiences that led up to al-Qaeda and both the FBI and the CoM. Oh my.

  101. Any ‘system’ or ‘organization’ is composed of only the individuals in it, and it is the morals and vision of each individual that determine the function of the form. A sane man on a tricycle will bring home more groceries than a looney driving a truck. We try to find a form to fit the function, to make the function easier. If those who wrote about the birth of the United States had somehow witnessed the corruption of the NYPD at one time in its history, those writers might not have been so enthusiastic. So it goes with the great institutions of history – even the Golden Age of Greece declined in the physical: yet It might be said the spirit, once born, found function, and never died. We hope to find in democracies and republics, a controlled perpetual revolution, hopefully a bit more than a hampster wheel. Odd that that which seeks to be unmoved, seems to always be moved, and that which expects to be moved, remains. The “unsinkable” Titanic. Sometimes it takes a death, before a rebirth in a better form; sometimes, only the meek inherit the Earth. The FBI “back then”, attacked the church; “today”, we wish the FBI would attack the church. So who is wrong? Anyone? Both? Neither? Whose responsibility is it today? Everyone’s: Yours (a harsh word, I know, but it is true – you heard what you wished to hear, thought what you thought, spoke as you spoke, voted as you voted, supported as you supported.) The more I comprehend of life, the more tautologies I see, such as: “It is your responsibility.”

    What REALLY needs to be said is that communication begins with an inflow, by being at effect. And indeed we are all effect point. If we had never failed to judge the effect, we would not have the reactive mind which is composed, one might argue, entirely of unresolved effects. If I had but one paragraph to read on a desert island, I would take axiom of Scn #28, the definition of communication.

    There is a right and wrong. We have all been substantially wrong in our appraisal of life; had we made no mistakes in our appraisals, we would not have the mess we have today. There is survival, but we have fallen into a dwindling spiral. There is the other side of that, an upward spiral towards correctness, knowing that we know, and survival. This is God’s Creation, and there are rules, and we must know them. Scientology is all about increasing appreciation of others; this is ARC and it is the way through; it isn’t about superimposing assumptions as we have done for thousands of aeons, but about asking questions. A very important distinction to make is that while there is right and wrong, vengeance is not ours. Vengeance is not what we want to begin with: what we want is to establish a rightness. Two wrongs do not make a right. This sounds so awfully simple. Fortunately for us, there is also such a thing as forgiveness and repairing mistakes. God left that for us. This is the merciful God we read about in Christianity. On a hugely broad scale (not the temporal game), we have the opportunity to do things right, and to redeem ourselves, but we must realize that we are the ones responsible for a continuation of rightness. One’s own rightness does NOT equate to another’s wrongness. That is: just because one is right, does not mean another is wrong, nor does rightness give one grounds to make another wrong, or to abuse or degrade another.

    War is the failure of diplomacy (communication). Litigation is similarly a failure to establish understanding and compatible viewpoints. You can sum up all of history as outpoints to the comm formula (in full, all parts of the definition) – all of it, right down to auditing errors and each individual whole track. The big problem with Scn is misunderstanding and misapplication. Get understanding and application in, and problems magically disappear – God gave us incredible power in that respect, Scn, Taoist, Buddhist, Christian, Muslim, Protestant, and all; almost absolute power to make things disappear if we understand, appreciate, and be right.

    Waiting eagerly to be ignored, I beg to remain, faithfully yours, Carcha.

  102. Joe Pendleton

    Marty, Bryan – I just think you two are very correct in the above comments. This comes up every now and then on this blog – that is to say whenever it is touched on that Ron may be done something wrong or been incorrect about something. Some folks get completely bent out of shape at even the suggestion and others of course just find verification for their basic thesis that LH was a bad guy who was wrong about everything.. For me, it is pretty easy to take a nuanced point of view and judge each LRH idea and action on its own merits (and also to try to understand what may have been his motivations to what he said and did). I can leave the house in the morning, walk through the world and view all of what I see and understand within the context of the great ideas and stable data I learned in Scientology. I can pick out each day one of Ron’s main ideas and align what I observe (and understand it) by that one datum. On the other hand, I can also look at one of LRH’s viewpoints on the 4th Dynamic or justice or organization and simply ………. think he was wrong on that or assume another point of view. Not a problem for me. BUT…. it seems to be for most folks on either side of the issue. And in the context of religion, it almost always is. Folks who are dedicated to a certain religion and believe in it deeply almost always have difficulty in viewing that religion or its supreme leader point by point. You can find a very beautiful definition of “love” in the New Testamant (I reccomend y’all google it) and then you can read in that same Bible that slaves should always obey their masters, even when abusive. I’ve attended Bible Study where the latter is not even rationalized or justified; folks just gloss right over it and pretend it’s not on the page. Well, the Apostle Paul seems to have been mightily resimulated and reactive at times. But as the Bible is looked on by Christians as “revelation” (which means God revealed it to all the folks who wrote it down), it is by that definition ALL true. We DON’T have to take the same view in Scientology. We can accept or reject any of LRH’s views as we judge them to be true or not or good or not by our own observation. Nothing LRH did wrong in the 60s or 70s in relation to how he viewed politics on planet Earth affects the validity of any of the truths he discovered or codified in Scientology. And we should be free enough beings to be able to look at all this from an exterior viewpoint (as hard as it may be to confront at times). Thus we will actually INCREASE our understanding.

  103. martyrathbun09

    Thanks Bruce. Uncomfortable, but unmistakable analogies.

  104. Joe Pendleton

    Yes, the CofS committed Federal Crimes in the 70s (and could have also been taken to court for what was done to Paulette Cooper and others by the GO), whether these actions were ordered by LRH himself and/or Mary Sue and Jane Kember. BUT…. that doesn’t mean the FBI wasn’t much of the time of its existence, a highly suppressive organization. Just read the bio of a few years ago written on the life of J. Edgar Hoover and his 48 years of rule over the FBI and you will get a truly despicable tale. Hoover persecuted many, many people for their political beliefs and violated their civil liberties (to say nothing about his disgusting campaign against Martin Luther King). Not an admirable organization (and yes, the FBI “missed” the whole existence of the mafia for many decades).

  105. Marty, you said “All the while church members were being steadily indoctrinated continually that the entire controversy was solely and utterly about the US Department of Justice and the FBI executing an attempt to destroy the technology of Scientology.”

    I got in in 1975 and recall the events of 1977 etc. Everything you said in that statement is the gospel truth. There you had church members going to prison for gross crimes against the government and all the while that same church was convincing people it was the gov who’d committed crimes against the church! And people bought it! The “correct” way to think was that it was the gov that had a conspiracy against the church. You can’t make up this crazy stuff.

    Having been around at the time and witnessed the insanity, I’d say your use of the words “rancor”, “exaggerated” and “heinous” are understated, if anything.

  106. I detect a troll, to respond to a troll is to feed a troll Michael.

    That said a good troll uses fewer words, the objective being to get a greater verbage of indignant responses that your own.

    The best response to a troll is no response. Those who can’t resist could try. “<" Or "meh' but that is still giving troll treats.

  107. For non-Scn speakers, a “wrong item” is (roughly) a wrong person, place, or thing, or idea given by an individual looking for an answer – an item which is not true and does not resolve the issue. E.g. “She’s a witch! Burn her at the stake!” are two wrong items, the first leading to the next.

  108. Well, while I do know that most were robo-signed, and that responses to most were pre-written – sort of like a CSW – I have no data one way or another on response or review, other than the SO1 team would send packets to LRH for review when I was there (1977 timeframe). I maintain that the SO1 line in and of itself was a good thing.

  109. Marty, I think you’re to be commended on the update to this post. As a non-scientologist observing from afar, I feel like the “Hubbard could speak, write, or do no wrong” auto-response that sometimes surfaces from different individuals is a hindrance to the ultimate dissemination of the tech itself – as a person will more readily accept ideas from another that he/she perceives as objective as opposed to one affected by the cult think you mentioned.

    Just my opinion.

  110. Wow, there’s a name from the past. Alethiea was truly a nice person, and one of the people I really liked when I was on staff there.

  111. +1. Excellent points.

  112. Breath of fresh air… thanks Bryan

  113. Oracle,
    I read the link you provided. I know you didn’t write it, but since you present it for our view, I would like to comment. The following is a generality without proof, and if there is some time,place, form, event that can be detailed, then I would respectfully request to be provided with the documentation or the place to find it:
    “During his periods in seclusion/hiding in the 1970s and 1980s, he cut himself off from the outside world (including Scientology); although he continued to direct his “church” and write new policies and doctrines, he did not take part in mainstream Scientology activities.”

    First, I was in Scientology in the early 70’s and on staff from ’74 through ’82 (with time off for maternity leaves). I had personal communications and orders directly from LRH , as did others that I recall seeing, such as the KOT, and the D/ED. Now, can I provide copies of the telexes or the letters? No, because I never kept any of it. But, I do know that he was on the line in the 70’s giving the orders and looking over the tech. I wrote to him asking for a personal request which was denied by my local org, and he granted it. Again, I know that he used a dictaphone and had people typing like mad to answer letters. It would be foolish to think that he sat down and hand wrote or typed each and every response himself. Did anyone really think that he did? So the fact that people typed and responded for him doesn’t mean that he never read anything. I knew someone who worked in the room where the letters were answered and all the staff had headsets and typed away. Furthermore,there was the Office of LRH, and if something was sent to this office, it was handled by the office.

    So, I grant you that he could have easily stopped using the dictaphone and had others answer; I don’t doubt it, but rather than assume that it was all done for evil purpose is a leap that has no foundation, and it is apparent that the purpose of the linked document is to somehow ‘prove’ that LRH was a liar and had evil intentions or was paranoid. Maybe that is true. Still, there is also the fact that HE had REAL enemies, and knowing he had personal case along with running an organization that was unique, to say the least, only makes what he did achieve more amazing. A true SP can not and does not want thetans to achieve FREEDOM to any degree.

    For the sake of argument, let us assume (as there is only assumption possible) that LRH only wanted to start a church for his own private gain, that he was a delusional psychotic paranoid, that he was a rock slamming SP who only cared about his own power and influence over others, and he was/is in fact SATAN UNBOUND (I think that summs up most of the hidden ‘data’ on Ron). Okay, he lied to all of us and the SO1 line was ONLY to seek out heritics and FBI agents. Then, if this is true, the fact that thousands (conservative estimate) of people have gotten gains from auditing, and at present ,people still do get gains from auditing, is simply an unintended byproduct of his true intentions.
    This does not change the fact that auditing, done correctly, or even half ass correctly, can produce amazing results in an individual. That is quite a by product! Wow, he must have been so pissed off…no wonder he went into seclusion.
    This document also states that he “continued to run the church but stayed out of mainstream Scientology activities.”.. My question is, what mainstream activities? Delivering training and auditing WAS the mainstream activity (back then!). We didnt have tons of events, (LRH birthday was the main one) and those few that we did have were LIVE at our Org. So, what is this guy talking about?

    One last thing, what if LRH told everyone back then, “Sorry folks, but I don’t have time to listen to you on a personal level because my lines would be too fucking jammed, and also, I’m a wanted man by the FBI etc, so I have to take off into neverneverland because if I get busted, then Scientology will be busted, and you folks don’t have a prayer of pulling this off all by your bad selves, so I’m outta here, but keep the faith..else you freedom is shot to hell”. Oh yea, that would have gone off well, even in Ron’s own elegant style, the public and staff would have been devistated because they would have felt abandon, betrayed, and then a true SP would have taken over much sooner. So, he kept the comm line open, which was the greatest good. So, yea, anyone can motivate on that action if they so desire, but if you do, just know that there is some tech to handle your impulse to do so.

    In closing, Oracle, what was your intention for posting this document?

  114. +1. Very similar viewpoints.

  115. TroubleShooter

    Fascinating how this data fills in gaps that I have to confront as being naive ideas about things. All along I thought LRH was responding and then ED Int…whew. Good data!

  116. Tom,
    I presume with ‘WOOC’ you’re referring to the HCOB on ‘WORLD OUT OF COMMUNICATION’. Hope i am right with this.
    It took me a few minutes to get it and Google wasn’t helpful.

  117. Tom,
    I presume that with ‘WOOC’ you are referring to the ‘WORLD OUT OF COMMUNICATION issue.
    MUs are indeed what they are so I’d rather not have a new MU.

  118. There are so many good posts on this thread – starting with Marty’s and his update. I would like to post “LIKE!” to many of them.

    The bottom line for me is that truth is a bitter pill, but it’s necessary for recovery and, finally, understanding. The challenge is that in a forum like this one, everyone’s not quite ready to hear ALL the truth at the same time.

    Several people have posted wisely here about “personal responsibility.” The least those of us who frequent Marty’s blog can do is to take personal responsibility for NOT looking away when those who were present when salient events in Scientology happened finally speak out about the events that went down at critical junctures in Scientology’s young history.

    There is room here for multiple viewpoints. However, there are some actual facts that should be entered into evidence.

    The truth shall make us free. Splurge on it!


  119. Darn, still wrong name!

  120. Sorry… Scientology lingo for getting therapeutic value.

  121. I think Hubbard read them and signed them. Of course he wasn’t going to sit at a typewriter all day. No executive does. I sent him a letter in the early 70’s with a peculiar comm cycle that only he could have answered. I knew it was him that answered the letter. It is possible later he did not bother to read them but I doubt people were forging his signatures.

  122. Excuse me, gotta run now. This is starting to feel like a, a, a, JUSTICE cycle! A sec check or a comm ev! The begining of a B of I ! I think this JUSTICE word has conjured up some black magic. Poof!

  123. Tone arm action (e-meter term)

  124. RS,
    Just curious, how did you know that most of the Ron letters were fake? Was this just your own knowingness and/or lgical assumption, or did you have some reliable information about the line at that time?

  125. Well, you have to be able to think out of the box to do those things. You have got to be able to shift identity. That is shape shifting. Not everyone can pick a lock. We break laws as we move up the bridge, laws that have been imposed on us like the reactive mind. If we do not break those laws we do not move up the bridge. Now we are the illegal entries into the OT universe because we are not waiting for invitations from Scn inc.. You have to be OT to keep going up the bridge without permission from corporate headquarters. We are breaking the laws of silence expected from us by DM. Hubbard could have hired lawyers (as DM has them him like nannies) but maybe he didn’t want to use parishioner funds or Church resources for private battles. It does not bother me that they carried on an investigation without permission from the F.B.I.. The F.B.I. is getting paid from out tax dollars and is supposed to work for us. The way I see it, Hubbard just did a danger formula bypass. New laws have been passed since that time called the Freedom of Information Act. Now everyone has a right to ask and know. Hubbard was just ahead of his time.

  126. lol! Meanwhile, LRH’s description of the FBI/justice dept are more true today than they were in 1979, with deliberate gun running into Mexico orchestrated by DOJ for the purpose of blaming legitimate gun dealers and gun owning citizens here in the US for Mexico’s gun violence. Part of the deal is deliberate dealings with Mexican drug cartels for the purpose of bringing drugs into the US to fuel the so called “war on drugs” and the prison/industrial complex. I hope that Eric Holder and DM will one day share a cell together. Of course, they might just like it.


  127. “the management” is all inclusive. It is true some crazy people got into management positions. It is also true that some very sane and competent and highly intelligent and in valence people got into management positions.
    To name a few:
    (sorry for any mis spellings)

    Alan Hubbard
    Milt Wolfe
    Liz Astrupguard
    Morten Astrupguard
    Ivan Obolinsky
    Rick Alexander
    Yvonne Jentze
    Diana Hubbard
    Jeannie Franks
    Tom DeVoght
    David Mayo

    Those people used their power to inspire, and lead and create and they extended themselves to make sure EVERYBODY could win. They had something in common. They were able to care about the person in front of them.

  128. Lovely post Theo.

  129. . . . with his tongue!

  130. Yep, that’s it. Black magic indeed. Humans don’t do well with justice,but the light of truth always penetrates the dirty, dusty, dark, and dingy shadow of a lie. It doesn’t matter to me what the truth is, only that it is.

    Once upon a time I found out, inadvertently,that there was no Santa Clause. For a second I was stunned, because he was very real to me! But then I thought, “I knew that” and I continued to mock it up because it was fun. I got presents, and soon after I told my parents, gently, “mom and dad, there is no Santa Clause”.

    My letter from LRH (or whomever) saved the day for me. I proudly walked into my HCO and presented a letter “from the Old Man” admittedly with an ‘in your face’ attitude . It was an administrative action and I was granted my wish. So, I was not harmed by this action, and in fact, if a monkey signed his name, I would not have cared. I do not, nor did I ever think that LRH’s personal opinon or even his personal comm line was some sacred magical thing. He was the ‘buck stops here guy” and it was simply a strategic move to write to him. For those who poured their heart out “itsaing to him”, then I can understand the personal upset. Still, Scientology isn’t about the founder or the green on white. If I believed that then I would be disinterested. The only thing I have ever cared about in the end is if the red on white works. For me, it has been good.

    As the saying goes, ‘don’t confuse the finger pointing to the moon for the moon.”

  131. A+++++

  132. Well! After reading the memorandum – well, I have mixed feelings:

    1. These guys were some busy people! Infiltrating the BBB, newspapers, various groups. Man!
    2. They sure were dumb leaving the incriminating evidence at Pac. My God!
    3. This shit has been going on for a while.
    4. DM is a lower-toned harmonic of the GO.
    5. I really sensed the embarrassment of the US Attorney’s who wrote it that a little-old church could be so damn busy and effective at infiltrating them and other government agencies.

    I don’t know. All of these actions were, really, desperate actions. Stupid and illegal, too. There obviously had to be a better way to get a better result legally. But, at the time, the church was facing being banned and was banned in several countries.

    The bottom line to me is that we (the GO, MSH, and Ron, for that matter) got into a games condition with the various people trying to ban us, and crossed way over the line. I am pretty sure Ron’s attitude was that we are, at core, a benevolent group doing good things, so it should be defended any means necessary.

    We are a benevolent group at core – we should have just kept it at that, and dealt with the adversity with clean hands.

  133. Retired: I agree that “Justice” has been perverted and is now an antithesis of the word in practice. When Ron was alive, there was at least a higher org which could be honestly used for appeal. I was able to get help from FOLO once, and their decision bypassed the SP ED that I was serving under. At that time, I felt SO terminals were always saner than the local staff. Yet, Justice was never played out as it was suppossed to per the green on white.
    One had about as much chance at Justice in Scientology as out of Scientology even ‘back in the day”. If you ever sat on a Committee of Evidence or were the subject of one, then you know what I mean.
    Whenever I have sought Justice in the church, I had to follow up reports with phsycial action…body on the line, whatever it took. The last time I sought Justice, I got it, and that was three years ago. However, it took over 2 months of PERSISTENCE, MANY MANY LRH REFERENCES, BYPASSING THE LOCAL ORG AND LRH COMM, and not accepting no for an answer.
    The cycle in question was blatantly wrong and those involved needed to be placed in ethics, but oh wait, the terminals WERE ETHICS! I made sure that they were chitted and crammed and that they did infact do the cramms. The entirety of the cycle took three months and was very entheta. And this is better than ‘wog’ law…LOL. Yep, “the times they are a changin’ in the ol’ Church of Miscarriageology.

  134. Jean-Francois Genest

    Ha ha ha! I had an allergic reaction 🙂
    (Ooops, I must be PTS then, and must be sent to the RPF)

  135. Mr. Fox, you do not know the difference between a meer troll and a trained Scientology operative using Black Scientology (reverse processing intended to cave people in, not make them more free). Not being trained in Scientology at all, I can not expect you to recognize when it is being deliberately abused.

    Michael A. Hobson
    Independent Scientologist

  136. Marty,
    You are correct. The sad truth is that the real basics of Scientology as an applied philosophy were not applied by Ron, and consequently the Church, when it came to Chruch policy, (his family?), and especially with ‘enemies”. If any individual personally dramatized the motivators and the crimes perpetuated by the church staff, that person would have been declared. What applies to the individual thetan applies to the group. All the degrading comments he makes about anti-social groups applies to Scientology. The overt motivator sequence was fully in place from the get go. Ron evidently had his own issues with the law prior to starting the Church. Even if he didn’t, he can’t escape his own brilliant writing: Ethics, Justice, and the Dynamics. Also, the balance of force and intelligence comes into play.

    Still, the important point is that in the present, we have a “leader’ who has NONE of the brilliance of LRH and has manifested the outpoints of yesteryear to the nth degree. Instead of wearing a much needed Qual hat on the practicing policies of the organization and simply pushing the standard training, auditing, and care for staff, he created a Frankenstein monster…as you better than anyone know!

  137. Nice Oracle!…..that is funny!

  138. Jewel – Definitely. I haven’t read whatever TO linked to, and have little idea what this particular discussion is about, but the nit-picking over LRH is simply reactive mind. No one I have tried to logically discuss anything with is amenable to logic, none seem to be able to view Scn, and none (not one) has anything even remotely resembling a better solution than Scn. If LRH had wanted to make bucks I somehow feel very confident he could have raised a billion for every million Miscavige raises. I’m not saying there is no place in the world for any criticism of anyone ever, but it is necessary to be very familiar with the product before criticising its maker. The most difficult thing about being LRH (I imagine) was doing the right thing, as opposed to just shrugging his shoulders and saying, “Oh, well … I tried, didn’t I?” I shudder to think of the inane questions he must have answered for the hundredth time. – Carcha.

  139. Here here!! what is that drawing of “Bill hits Joe” and then Bill is complaining that Joe hits people…and then there’s “Joe hits Bill and Bill hits Joe” haha, yea the overt motivator sequence…what all moms (and dad’s) and teachers know to be true. But, if God is on your side, you’re cool.

  140. I do not know what you mean by “Snap!”

    The Oracle says to serious?

    Marty says he needs an editor.

    I say the the words “you kids” are taken literally which can mean “disparaging manner” per Your Humble Servant.

    My guess Marty means it in an ARC full way as in this definition:

    a friend; HOMIE.

  141. got it. I could never understand why DM is creating LRH to be god nowadays. But I got my cog a few days ago. In Cl 5 orgs at every course period end, they clap to LRH. Of course all trained sups are trained at Flag. Hence the SO impingment into the public, unrelenting clapping to LRH. At events the same. It’s the sheep effect. It’s group agreement, yet I bet every public is saying to themselves “this is bullshit, this clapping at a picture of LRH as a god” I don’t think LRH would approve. This is thought stopping, this thought stopping on people Looking, not listening. It is bank think. It is not self determinism.

    If somebody wants to clap at a picture of LRH, go for it. I ain’t gonna stop you, just don’t expect I have to nor want to.

  142. If certainty of one’s being is determined by the good or bad reputation of another then one’s well being will always be in flux because that sense of well being is based on externality. And externalities are always changing. Because change is the nature of the world.
    In my view Ron was a little bit of everything people say about him. He was a prophet, he was a little tweaked, he was a genius, he was a madman, he has saved lives, he has instituted a paranoid militarism that even today has hurt lives.
    Ron was good for us, the Star Trek generation. What amazing stories we lived.
    But his greatest legacy, is gathering a generation of truth seekers that has formed the habit in the mind that serving the planet is worth more than serving self.
    He has introduced us to the power of looking and finding our own answers.
    And has done a wonderful thing, taught us the power of words, the power of looking, the power of being in the present.
    He’ll be back, he ain’t done.

  143. Yes, I agree with you that the game of entrapment is what it is. However, the datum ‘the ends justifies the means’ is essentially what you are touting, and though it is just, in one sense, to take down an enemy at whatever cost and by whatever means, it is more workable in space opera or action movies than in reality. I am not advocating a ‘do nothing’ view. If you read any of my posting I think that it should be obvious that I am not PollyAnna. But just don’t forget that in the All About Radiation book Ron talks about using methods other than force to combat enemies. In DMSM he talks about using communication instead of bullets, an In the ethics materials he says to obey the laws of the land. He says many places about how savage human beings can be etc. As-is-ness is the power of theta. Creativity in solving problems is the power of theta. Brut force, lies, and playing cat and mouse is boringly SOP for the universe. The idea is to be, do, have what you want to see occur. You get what you push. Entheta begets entheta.

    It simply isn’t wise to go against the law to get Justice or to squish the enemy. The fact that Ron lived as he did, that his wife and other GO members went to jail, and that the church, OSA specifically, runs the type of operations on people that they run (degrading them, lying about them, and creating nothing but entheta) does not indicate a Win. Yes, the buildings of the CoS still exist, but the PR is worse than ever, the tech has been compromised, and the group has no chance of carrying out the overarching goal of “clearing the planet.” How then does fighting crime with crime and pointing to the wrong ‘who’ serve anyone?

  144. Random Stranger

    Ron told me so one day when I was channeling Devine Energy through Capt’n Bill and Mike McClaughry. I was using the newer Rod Concentration Frequencies so I did have that advantage over them, maybe even approximating the clarity with which David Miscavige receives his signals.

    Just kidding. Some Sea Org veterans told me during a conversation one day. Also, around 1974 I wrote a letter and the response came back the next day. I asked the Sea Org Missionaire and the LRH Comm who handed me ‘Ron’s’ letter if they knew where LRH was and they replied they thought he was in Ireland or some such place. I watched the LRH Com’s eyes twitch as I said, “Hmmm, pretty good. I sent the letter yesterday. It went to LRH in Ireland six thousand miles away and he answered it and it was transported all the way back to me. In just a day. Wow. That’s speed of particle flow. I thought maybe it was some highly advanced secret transportation device they were using in order to magically make this happen. Or maybe OT powers!! Wow. I was impressed with that. I think.

  145. TroubleShooter

    I say he ought to lick at least one clean Dean…

  146. Random Stranger


    Dear Ron,

    I’m only twelve and I’m trying to learn how to audit but I keep feeling like I should smash the PC in the head. Is this OK? Also, I was wondering…do you need a camera boy? I’m pretty good with my Kodak Instamatic.

    Furthermore, I was looking through your books and stuff looks messed up. Did you read your books? I found lots of typos and wrong stuff.

    The e-meter has been driving me batty, too. The needle swings all over the place. How many times is it supposed to swing? I took all my rings off and the the needle still crashes erratically back and forth like the meter is broken. Are these things QCed at all?

    Do you need more Sea Org members? My parents are really bugging me about stuff, telling me what to do and bossing me around. I need to get out of here.

    I have asthma. Wasn’t Dianetics supposed to handle that? I did some but it didn’t work. Can you audit me? Can I have your uniform when you’re done with it? What’s it like to be Commodore?

    Love and KRC,

    Davey Miscavige

    PS: I really like having this direct comm line to you.

  147. “Most Ethical Group on the Planet” has turned into the best salesmanship on the planet ( time and pressure per Tony Thruth Rundown series at the village voice) under the guise of a church under the guise of clearing the planet under the guise of Standard Tech (GAT) under the guise of LRH being a Saint with no O/W’s.

  148. I am with you man.

    Fantastic arguments today from everyone.

  149. guise of LRH being a Saint with no O/W’s

    Hence the making of him into a God. Somebody to be clapped to, a bust , a picture. Kneel before me as DM wants you to do. But LRH does not, why is that?

  150. Random Stranger


    1) There are still weapons of mass destruction hidden in Iraq.

    2) Santa Claus really does live at the North Pole.

    3) David Miscavige really is a nice guy.

    4) The USA is not bankrupt.

    5) The moon landing was fake and actually filmed in a studio.

    6) Jesus is coming.

    7) The check is in the mail to you.

    8) Michael Jackson was not gay.

    9) Neither was Liberace.

    10) LRH read and signed the standard SO #1 letters.

  151. LOL


  152. Li'll bit of stuff

    Hi again Carcha.I’m one that just can’t ignore you. But you
    already know that, I would sense?
    Axiom 28? Aha, yes and this beautiful tool “manufactured”
    by LRH, in his prolific genius, sits right in there with his
    other gift to us all……..THE FACTORS!

    What about that other beauty, Axiom IO ? This one just so
    adequately explains WHY we need a GAME!

  153. LAUGHTER! 2FF! DM letter to Ron. Hysterical!

  154. Good post Mr. Grasshopper,
    Same type of tactics occurred in Toronto … break-ins, infiltration, etc … and while the ‘defendants’ were in court about to be sentenced, Miscavige was announcing at an IAS event that we had won.

    The only win I can see was that the defendants ended up paying fines and thanking their lucky stars they didn’t go to jail … the church – well a badly damaged image … the fine was of course paid out of the parishioner’s pockets.

    I liked you last statement:

    ” We are a benevolent group at core – we should have just kept it at that, and dealt with the adversity with clean hands.”

    The high road is one better traveled.

  155. Humans do great with justice. It is the injustice that is hard to digest.
    Not sure what items you are selling here but it doesn’t fit me. Glad to know what you really cared about worked out for you. All the best…..

  156. Dassie, I will answer you, from my opinion.

    Lets say you have a million dollar diamond ring. How do you hide this? In your home from a potential robbery. What’s the best way.
    Consider this as a solution.
    A. put the ring in a safe in your home?
    B. put the ring out in the open in your home and also show visibly a safe.

  157. Li'll bit of stuff

    Captain Bob, my response was to The Oracle, in reply to the old card game “kids” used to play…”.SNAP!”
    (same card = same point or “ditto” )

  158. If people realized or knew LRH had O/Ws or made mistakes, there goes the ponzi by DM. Hence current staff members or public are told to not seek data on the internet.

  159. eileen110clark

    Great post!! From the responses I can see it certainly hit a hot button. Truth is truth, good, bad or ugly, makes no difference. Putting the pieces of information out there to be viewed and allowing “reason” to put it into perspective with other information you have, results in greater understanding of the whole. I still admire, love and respect LRH and MSH, because of what they both worked for and accomplished. Do I have the right to condemn either of them for not being perfect? I don’t think so.

  160. Random Stranger

    The criminal acts to which we are referring are contrary to and subverts the subject of Scientology. You call it “shape shifting” and “thinking outside the box”. Yeah, it was shape shifting alright. And thinking outside the box too. Outside the box of the jail cell where whoever concocted and carried out these illegal activities belonged.

    Lawyers, persistence and PR would have been more effective at handling what the church wanted to handle. And it’s legal. The church abused it’s freedoms and disregarded the barriers for what? To find out why government officials were bad-mouthing L. Ron Hubbard and the church?

  161. Random Stranger

    Yeah, it’s true that the FBI has violated the rights of many citizens over the years with it’s black bag jobs and undercover operations and etc.

  162. and you got to get the control that is implied by the Sea Org nowadays. And who controls the SO, why DM, command intention. But were is LRH in all this control. Oh, how little by little it gets degraded from source.

  163. scilonschools

    Fair comment about the child,having said that in the context of the rest of the documentary survivors of the Davidians interviewed still seemed in delluded denial about David Koresh’s intentions & actions.#
    There is no doubt that the FBI bungled that operation, and lack of understanding of the mental state of those involved, and ‘in fighting in the FBI ranks played a major role in that one.
    The mindset of the Davidians did seem so familiar to the Jonestown final act of suicide where there was no FBI surrounding them, just the thoufgt that the ‘bubble’ had burst and they were ‘in trouble’ now pushed them over that edge.
    In an extremely controlling relationship (CULT or other), the victims adopt child like understanding of life and consequences of their actions, even on life & death decisions, when they are adults with their own children that is not a healthy situation for the well being of their child, who deserves to be protected by a responsible adult (ideally their natural parent).

  164. eileen110clark

    There was a personal insight gained from reading the Sentencing doc. I came into Scn in Jan 78, started the EPF in Feb 78, was put into the USGO Legal Bureau (unwillingly) in late May 78. I had no clue about what had gone before. It is only now that I realize how I was used in certain ways because of my ignorance. I did not share the same 3rd Dynamic condition as the rest of the group. I learned LRH Admin Tech and took it to heart, applied it as is, often at great variance with those around me, a few most particularly.

    Once, I said to my ex, Richard, that I had felt for a long time as if I was walking in one direction on one side of the street while he walked in the opposite direction on the other side. At the time, I thought it was just a 2D situation. Now, I realize it pretty much sums up my entire time in Scn, with few exceptions.

    It is amazing to me that I put up with it for 32 years. What does that say about me? I am grateful that I am at the point to ask myself that question. Don’t worry, folks, I am not listing on it.

    Through it all runs the thread of LRH tech. That was the “Red Thread”, that kept me connected. It still does.

    This blog is so valuable in so many ways. Thanks.

  165. Mr Grasshopper, you noted at the end there:
    “We are a benevolent group at core – we should have just kept it at that, and dealt with the adversity with clean hands.”

    I agree. And if you relisten to the money tapes you would agree. Planetary disemmination is BS. Hubbard says Governments could take over. monopoly, back dianetics, black scientology.
    That’s my view.

  166. scilonschools

    Thanks Yvonne that possibility had slipped my mind, maybe she woke up to the true horror of the situation a bit too late to save her children.
    The actions of the FBI were ignorant and ill conceived, they were like children playing a deadly gane with others and their children.
    The horror of the Waco Siege could be attributed to a total lack of responsible adults!

  167. LRH says the future for one is un mapped. There is no future if you are stuck in the past. So create the future. Anybody can do this, and those that can not, maybe Scientology can help you. Does any religion state this?

    You can create tomorrow by simply doing a BP of what you are going to do tomorrow, and do it. And nobody can stop you but you.

  168. Random Stranger

    Hey, just trying to adhere to the three-swings of the pendulum. Perhaps the specific use of the term “from Day One” possibly sweeps too wide. But the sweep has been wide and long:

    1) LRH writing to the FBI about commies in his organization? Was that true? Did he really think the commies were harming his organization? Was he just trying to get them out? He continued this until the FBI dead-filed him as a nut.

    2) Mocking and denigrating all other ideologies except for Scientology.

    3) Continual financial shenanigans.

    4) False promises of super-powers.

    5) Elite-caliber pricing evolution.

    6) Shifty church stuff with ‘Sunday Service’ and ministers collars and other disingenuous phenomena done solely to comply with the specifications required to be considered a religion for tax purposes.

    7) Evolving into the Sixties with the whole cultish militaristic Sea Org where toughness became such an admired virtue.

    8) The Guardians Office didn’t suddenly spring out of the blue in the Sixties. It was simply organized and manned up and targeted out based on the momentum already created. The way that whole thing ran was simply shifty.

    9) The judicial papers you link to which outline the heinous crimes of the Mary Sue Hubbard gang, contain a correct conclusion by the prosecutor that it wasn’t just these individuals going overboard, but rather what they were doing was based on Church policy. And the unindicted co-conspirator was L. Ron Hubbard. And rightly so.

    10) I don’t have a ten. Sorry. That’s a first.

    But looking back over the words I used in my black and white sentence to see if the pendulum had indeed swung past the truth/fiction mark and aside from the omission of the other many shades of gray you correctly refer to, I don’t see that I’ve strayed so far off the mark that I’m completely out of the light on this baby.

  169. tomorrow I am going to post a reply to somebody on Marty’s blog here. Who can stop me in the game of it all?

  170. and guess what, I don’t need the CO$ permission to do so. I only need Martys permission, but that is the game. Play it or leave, my choice.

  171. right now, I’m playing and I am VGI’s about it.

  172. “Mr. Fox, you do not know the difference…..”
    ” I can not expect you to recognize …..”

    You are pretty liberal yourself putting items on people Mike.

  173. Random Stranger

    The specific policy of the Sea Org branch of Church of Scientology management decades ago which states it’s ok for staff to engage in physical violence against each other is one of the corrupt management policies that plowed the earth and fertilized it, making it more possible for a guy like Miscavige to pop up like an evil weed that can’t be pulled out.

  174. Yes but, the fact that some parts of the Church committed crimes against some government agencies does not mean that some government agencies did not commit some crimes against the Church, either. There could have been crimes on both sides. Depending on how you define “crimes”.
    Unfortunately, in this world it is usually those who have the guns define what
    is a “crime” and what is not. And money buys guns. Here’s a good read:

    Whether what Church agents did was right or wrong is a matter of viewpoint. There is no doubt that overt-motivator sequences were in play. And reportedly more than one government spokesperson expressed admiration at the way “ordinary people” were able to turn the tables and infiltrate government agencies. It was a clear demonstration to the powers-that-be that “two can play that game”. “You can infiltrate us, but we can infiltrate you right back if necessary”. A reminder that government really does serve at the will and sufferance of the people. Not that the people survive at the sufferance of the government, as it is in many regimes around the world to this day. See news from Syria, for example.

    Many of my generation, in the 1960s and 1970s, refused to take that step forward which would induct them into the US Army during the Vietnam war. They each spent 2 years in Federal prison. Refusal to be inducted was a felony, thus these draft resisters suffered a loss of civil rights. Was that justice? Yet it was considered a “crime” to refuse to be drafted into the Army. This resistance to the Army’s draft for Vietnam resulted in the suspension of the involuntary servitude of the military draft to this day. It moved society on up a little higher. Is not a forced military draft no more than human trafficking?

    Interestingly enough, this coincided with the start of the OT Course which I believe was announced in 1967 or so. I believe I have Advance! magazines from that time promoting such.

    The spirit of the times was a surge towards increasing freedom and self-determinism. Were crimes committed? Technically speaking, no doubt. Looking at it in black and white terms, no doubt.

  175. 2nd that wow on the video, plus there’s more….

  176. For insight into what has happened, I highly recommend a small book titled “Beyond Belief” by Elaine Pagels. She is recognized as one of the world’s premier historians of Early Christianity.

    There are astonishing parallels between the first centuries of Christianity and the first 50 years of the Church of Scientology. Scientology has recapitulated the first 400-500 years of Christianity in about 50 years. That quickly, because of modern communications technology – printing, Telex, phones, radio, tape recorders etc, + LRH’s drive towards accomplishing his purpose(s).

    Anyone who would like a better understanding of what has happened and is happening, I recommend reading this little book.

    Beyond Belief, by Elaine Pagels

  177. A balanced and historical perspective.

    I think that this is what we need here to get closer to the truth.
    I think that we need to understand the actions of GO personnel, including Ron’s wonderful wife and partner, Mary Sue, before labeling them all as “criminals”. To do so, it is necessary to look at things from the point of view of history and what was actually going down at the time. There is little doubt that they did commit illegal acts, but it is also true, as others have mentioned here, that multiple agencies of the U.S. government had also been committing illegal (unconstitutional) acts against the Church of Scientology prior to this. There is no doubt of that. The FDA had raided the Washington D.C. church and confiscated books and E-Meters claiming that the Church was using them to “diagnose medical ills”. The US Post Office (then a department of the US Government) had cancelled the bulk mailing license of the the Washington D.C. church. These and many other attacks occurred while LRH was researching, developing and compiling the original OT Levels and other Tech to benefit mankind. The main “crimes” that the COS as committing in that era were being there, communicating, and freeing beings. Mary Sue took the hat of protecting the church organization from these criminal attacks being perpetrated in the name of “justice” by elements of the government and special interest organizations (such as the American Psychiatric Association). And to my observation, the GO did a pretty good job. They bought LRH enough time and space to concentrate on his technical researches which resulted in the services we deliver today in the independent field. That is a very important fact. Did they also make errors of judgement? Yes. And they, too, broke the law. Was doing so justified? That probably depends upon your point of view. If someone sucker-punches you while you are minding your own business doing nothing aggressive (and you are fortunate enough not to be out cold), is it wrong to kick him several times while he is on the ground after you have punch his lights out? I think so. Is that illegal and unjustified. Yes, I think so. But how harshly should this person be judged? This takes perspective. Here’s a recent actual example: The COS is fond of showing their video of Marty riding by on his bike and hawking a loogie at the “Squirrel Busters”. (Pretty funny to me!) But Is that legal? I don’t think so. Is it justified? Again, honestly I don’t think it is. But should Marty be indicted and judged for that? No way, because one must put it in the perspective of 180 some odd days of efforts to make his and Mosey’s lives a living hell.
    LRH thought a hell of a lot of Mary Sue. She was his wife. She was also his partner in so many other ways. She was very dedicated to Scientology. He acknowledged her in writing and on tapes for assisting him in his early research and development of the Tech that we appreciate so much. Later, she also carried a huge load to keep the attacks off his lines while he was doing advanced research.

    So, although the federal prosecutors used the word “heinous”, I agree with those on this blog that feel that it is much too strong a word to use to describe MSH and the Guardian’s Office. Most of the people I knew who worked in the GO seemed to be fine, dedicated people who were dedicated to preserving and protecting the TECH for use by mankind. I understand that some of them made some reactive decisions also, some of them may have had somewhat criminal minds, but mostly their actions just kept the show on the road. Personally, from my recollection, most of their “crimes” pale in comparison to many of the programs which were being perpetrated in the same era by elements in the US government and special interests against the their group. So again, a balanced historical perspective is necessary to judge what went on then.
    Here’s something else that might be helpful for all. It is the shortest (as well as one of my favorite) official LRH policy letters:
    HCOPL 13 September 1978
    “An old poem which has been newly adopted as policy:
    There is so much good in the worst of us
    And so much bad in the best of us
    That it ill behooves any of us
    To talk about the rest of us.”

  178. Li’ll bit of stuff, believe you’ve got something there!!

  179. That flyer is truly hilarious, thanks dfb99

  180. There ya go Marty, all the above 😉

  181. I think he ain’t coming back until we move the place on up a little higher…..
    I could be wrong. But he may come back and keep his mouth shut about who he is….

  182. Marty, do you have any info on the 8 people that went to jail. I’ve read some on MSH but nothing on the others. Did they get out? Alive? still in Scientology? anything?

  183. theo Sismanides

    Jewel, I liked the document. Shows LRH was the Master of Delegating Posts and Hats. Even if he wouldn’t answer ALL letters personally (which I also doubt he could do, given the amount of work he had) he would delegate that job to a person who would have enough wits and ARC and KRC to act accordingly. And also in this document I saw how wisely LRH used that line for the protection of orgs, too, along with the public.

  184. If you would get 10,000 letters a month. How would you do it?

  185. theo Sismanides

    Thank you TO, I would expect that more people would be interested in discussing the Global Sit and objectively whether LRH did exaggerate about FBI’s intentions and activities, which Marty posted as “exaggerated rancor” which I think he should revoke. Instead some concentrate on LRH alone and DM. We know both of them, we don’t know though, much less are able to influence events that happen globally.

    No government now can be a threat to Scientology. The main Organization is CORRUPT but still DELIVERS quite some Scientology.

    I was trained and processed in that corrupt Organization and made it out because there is always Theta even in the church. There is LRH there, too and a somewhat sane person who can learn to duplicate Source and not off Source(s) can become a Player again and not stay a Pawn.

    Now that corrupt but still delivering quite some Scientology Organization is being protected by the SPs because they intend to use it for their own means. Maybe one day make Scientology the religion of a planet. Thus it cannot be stopped because a big upheaval would happen on the part of all Scientologists worldwide. The church now has a role for the government too and that serves us too, as it is our Div 6. We get most of our people from there yet.

    However, our true Div 6 CANNOT be for too long the church. There is a Big, Broad… huge Field out here. There are situations that are happening in this world. This is now our new chance. To be free to deliver real Scientology. This is a big broad purpose now. And a big challenge for us. And the above reference of LRH, YOUR POST, still applies.

  186. This was a good post – another puzzle piece that helps me understand the bigger picture. What I got out of it is this. Back in the day under LRH, Scientology was booming, course rooms were packed, people were forming groups, becoming auditors, Clears and OT’s. Some actions were taken to confront and undermine some real sources of suppression. Some “civilians” might have been run over in the process, but the general scene was that of progress and getting at cause across various areas including some truly suppressive institutions.

    Now 30 some years down the road, the church is little more than a giant leach upon the backs of its members, and the tactics that were used back in the days against more or less real enemies while Scientology was truly expanding are now used against upset parishioners and former staff. This is really putting things into the proper perspective…

  187. “I pledge allegiance to the Flag……”

  188. This is only the second time I leave a comment on this blog, but I wanted to say that I like this post. Very much.

  189. E.J. Croughs


  190. funny. I liked DM’s letter to Ron that you posted above but the reply button was overloaded, so I posted this here instead. FUNNY!!!

  191. Captain Bob: I don’t want to interfere with your “cognition” but for almost 40 years I observed people clap for LRH to show their affinity, love and respect for him…that sort of thing.

  192. In Defense of David Miscavige
    A Lecture given by L. Ron Hubbard
    on the 12th of November 1959
    – 7th lecture of the first Melbourne ACC –

    OK, 12th of November, first Melbourne ACC, first lecture. And this lecture, this one you are not gonna forget for some time! I am even having a bad time trying to get needles and tone arm and so forth, haven’t you? All right, have you got a reality now that there is a little gen to be genned? Hm? [“Yes!”] There’s something to be known about this? Is that right? Do you think there is maybe, maybe something more to be known about this? You think so?
    All right, today I am going to talk to you about the Rule of the Weak Valence. And that is highly technical and that is something very, very new. It hasn’t appeared before but you find the foreshadows of it in Dianetics, Modern Science of Mental Health under “allies”. And that’s the first shadow of this, it’s the Rule of the Weak Valence.
    Now let’s take a look at the communication formula, which is cause-distance-effect. Cause is source point. Cause is source point. Effect is receipt point. Right? [“Yes!”]
    Now that gets confused in people’s minds with the cycle of action. So any cause point can be confused with a creation point. Right? And any effect point can be confused with a destroyed or destruction point. Right? But basically all cases are hung up on their overts not on their motivators. That which you have done on any and all dynamics which you considered discreditable, is what hung you up. And that is a tough bullet to chew. That, that’s a hard one to front up to. It’s so hard to front up to, that people don’t blow clear, swoosh! Because they’ll tell you consistently that it was what happened to them that counted.
    Now they are not responsible for what happened to them, isn’t that right? They’re not responsible for that but they are responsible for what they did to others. Right? Now why is it? Why is it, if this is the case, that anybody ever gets slipped over to the receipt point of the comm formula?
    Well, mechanically it works like this. They outflow and outflow and outflow and then finally they become the cause of their own effect. In other words they become the effect of their own cause. Which ever way you wanna say it. Now here is cause, here is distance, here is effect. And they keep going from cause over the distance to the effect, cause over the distance to the effect, cause over the distance to effect, cause over the distance to effect, and the next thing you know, they slip and they get over here into effect. See, they slide down their own comm lines. Got the idea? And they wind up on the receipt point.
    Now did you ever hear in a European restaurant the waiter say, “Thank you“, when he put the plate before you? That’s just about the wildest thing you ever listened to. The waiter comes along and he puts your food down in front of you and he says, “Thank you!“ And I can discombobulate these fellows most dreadfully. That, when they put the plate down just before it touches the table and they have a chance to go through with their routine, I say, “Thank you!“, with a good tone 40, you know? And it almost knocks them silly and for an instant, I am sure that those fellows had a confusion between me and them. Now they had actually put food down on tables traditionally over such a period of time that they have to be the receipt point of what they caused.
    They are slipping down their own comm line, so they acknowledge what they did them-selves. They give themselves their own acknowledgments. That’s a very silly, silly situation and you’d say, okay, but… didn’t have much bearing on cases. Well, brother, it has every bearing on cases because it explains valences.
    And this is what a valence is. It’s the thing or receipt point which has been targeted by the cause point sufficiently that who ever is the cause point has slipped into the receipt point.
    Now you’ve been looking at this in terms of victim. Victim is of course a destroyed or threatened with destruction receipt point. That is all. That’s all a victim is. Somebody who hav-ing been at receipt point has been targeted from a cause point, victim.
    Of course the rationale behind victim is totally vicious. Being a victim is the last hope that your disability will be duplicated, so that you slaughter the cause point. Because the cause point duplicates you at receipt point. In other words you object to being treated so or used as an effect. You object to being an effect, you see. So instead of saying you object, you appear wounded or hurt in some fashion and the automaticities of duplication bring about the same hurt and so forth in the cause point. You got the idea?
    You might as well stop feeling sorry for the fellow that’s going down the street on crutches. Because I absolutely assure you, that at a whole track look, nothing ever happened to him that put him on crutches. See, he himself – it wasn’t that he did it to himself either. He mocked himself up on crutches, hoping to get at something that was cause point, hoping that it would then wind up on crutches, got the idea? It’s just a way of getting, getting his own back. Got that? Now that’s mighty cruel to state it that way but the truth of the matter is that his difficulties are caused by his overts. And that’s one of his overts. See? Being wounded, being upset and so forth is an overt because he hopes the observer will in turn get around to effect point and be wounded or upset. Got the idea? Hence we have the anatomy of the overt act.
    And the anatomy of the overt act is not very complicated. But the main thing you’ve got to figure out is, who is the victim? And you run this process very much, that’s one of the first things the pc comes up against. ”Now, wait a minute – victim, victim, let’s see, was I the victim because I was pretending to be wounded or was I the victim because I wounded somebody and then he convinced me that I ought to appear wounded? Now let’s see, which way am I the victim?“ [laughter] It is rather fabulous, rather fabulous, you look at it, and of course it really all blows up in smoke that there are no victims. But it’s a great apparency. But anything you see anybody doing or any condition you see anybody in could be heartlessly, brutally and cruelly, undoubtedly with those adjectives, but nevertheless truly, a version of axiom 10: production of an effect. Anything you see is an effort to produce an effect.
    Anything! Oh, you get out of here, you see an ambulance and it’s picking up dead bod-ies all over the street and so forth, you say, oh boy, the amount of mishmash there, that’s cer-tainly no effort to produce an effect. Those people lying there stone dead and so forth, they’re certainly not trying to … oh, the devil they aren’t!
    You go back far enough on the track and you’ll find little arguments of this character: “You’re wounded!“ – “No, I am not wounded!“ – “Well look, there is a bullet through your body!“ – “Oh there is a bullet through my body? I didn’t know I was wounded. Oh, there is a bullet through my body.“ – “Now you see that proves you are wounded. Ah, okay, now you have to lie down.“ and so on. “Oh, I don’t have to lie down, I … just because I just got a bullet hole through my body.“ You’ll actually run into quote…well, I, just like locks, on the whole track way back when. See, before all this had become so obsessive. Big arguments about who’s dead. [Laughter]
    Which one is the victim? Well of course as soon as the fellow is a victim he decides he will be a victim because he gets back at the fellow that’s arguing him into being a victim, don’t you see? The only reason he gets wounded is so that he can produce an effect on the fellow wounding him. I am afraid that’s a fact. That is the solid truth of the matter. But the rule of the weakest valence is this: That that apparent effect point which most easily receives an inflow will become the basic valence you must remove from the preclear. Look this over!
    Cause-distance-effect. Cause point is emanative. Ah, if you just draw, draw a little cir-cle there with emanations coming out of it, like if it was an electric light bulb or something like that in a comic strip, you know. That’s cause. Now draw a line and now draw a point and now draw arrows going into the point, like if it was an electric light bulb, pulling light in, not shed-ding it out. Got that? You see that now, that’s cause-distance-effect. And that effect point which you drew is the weakest valence.
    It will actually have the least mind. The mind itself is a sort of a buffer. It will be pulled down to practically nothing. Now that’s the easiest thing to communicate to because all you have to do is practically open your mouth, the communication arrives there with no volition on your part whatsoever. It pulls the communication in just like a magnet, see? Of course that’s basically the most overt overt act there is on the track. To mock up one of these super comm line sponges. You got a person who’s, not necessarily a person who’s terribly bad off or other-wise, but you will get a person occasionally who will only listen and never originate. You got that?
    You’ve seen people, they’ll only listen and they will never originate, they will never say anything at all. Well now if you reduce that down to the point where they appeared to be highly introspective about anything you said and hardly even agreed with you at all, they’d sort of pull your comm lines straight in. You know, dog lying on the side walk wounded, inevitably people walking by say “You poor fellow, what happened to you?“ And he just lies there wounded, you know? Got the idea? That’s a communication automaticity. Now that’s a minimum of effort required from the cause point to reach the receipt point. It’s almost as if this receipt point has provided a bus there at cause point, with no effort on the part of cause point and the words are going to be trolleyed right on down the distance line, straight to receipt point and taken care of right there. You know like banks, or something. Banks! Save your money, save your money and they just take your money and take your money and take your money – or governments and so on. And they just take your money and take your money and take your money and take your money and take your money and take your money and actually it gets to a point where all you do is have put out a coin, you know, and if you let go of the coin, it wouldn’t fall to the ground. [laughter] Get the idea?
    Well, that’s one of these super vacuum receipt points. Now that receipt point of course is the least emanative point. So it offers no resistance to a communication. Now this mechanism is mechanical. It is below the level of the rationale of who is a victim and all that sort of a thing. This is simply a mechanical arrangement that is set up and you get these receipt points, you see, that just seem to sponge up anything that come their way at all. You’ll find there the parasites of the society – well, those are just total sponges, see? They’re the parasites, they’re the alcoholics, they’re the officials, [laughter] they just {suck suck suck} got the idea? They never emanate anything.
    Now you are not one of these people because you emanate, see? You can put out too. Well these people really can’t put out. Odd things will happen with these people. You give them … they, they learn something, you understand, see? They learn the house is burning down and you come by an hour or two later and say, “Good God, the house burned down!“ and he says, he says, “Yes, I knew that.“ And you say: “Well why didn’t you tell me?“ Oh, you know, just a brand new idea. Tell somebody something, you know? You’ve seen this, you’ve seen this. Alright.
    Now let’s go further than that and let’s take something which seems to absorb. I’ll have to bring down this goddess Kali I bought in India and I mean to show you and so on, something that absorbs anything put in its direction, such as a black screen or something like that. The reason I mentioned Kali is she’s black, destruction and so forth, symbolism is pretty interesting. And here is a black screen that never lets anything out that comes into it, never. Nothing ever gets out of it, it only goes in. And you get a pc and he’s sitting there and my God, he can’t see anything, you know? Everything is just flying in, everything is just flying in like mad. “I just don’t understand what this screen is”, you know? There he sits, fixed, you know? “I don’t understand what this screen is. What is it, you know?” Well, actually it’s something that has steadily, currently, constantly, habitually demanded his attention to such a degree that he now can’t even see what it was that was demanding his attention. Got that?
    Well, that’s the weakest valence. That’s what he’s looking at. That is the weakest va-lence. Now basically the rule of the weakest valence … you see, in order to establish the case, the person … let me say that again. In order to establish the person, you split off the weakest valences. Not the strongest valences. You wonder why every time you try to run a strong va-lence off the case, nothing happens, see? Nothing happens.
    Fellow says: “Oh, my father was a tower, he used to come in the house and he said, ‘Oh, where’s the whisky, and no more whisky? I either scream or the walls just fall down’ and so forth, and he’s a terrible person and it’s undoubtedly, if I could just get rid of his valence I’d be all right!” Ah, the hell with it! How could he possibly get in the valence? The valence is emanating everything off of it. You got it?
    Now this is the anatomy of the dwindling spiral. People don’t go into the strong valenc-es, they go into the weak ones. Let’s look over the mechanics of it. It’s too easy to go into the weak valence. It’s so easy, you just relax and you’ll – slurp, got the idea? The weakest valence would be the most inflowing valence. In the preclear’s opinion. See now the very easiest thing, person, anything to talk to, address or anything like that would be something he would consider assisted his communication lines. See it assisted the inflow, it says: Oh, you’re going to say something, shlush, grabs the words right out of his mouth. Boom! Bubble! Spash!
    Now a person has to be pretty darn bad off during the period that these snaps happen. Now me talking to you at this moment could no more establish for me or for you valence shifts than the man on the moon. See? You can sit in a chair, you can look, you can talk, you can un-derstand, what’s going on and so on. I can stand here and talk, I am alert and so on. We get the engram of valence shift because valence shifts occur because the overt act motivator sequence when somebody sets himself up as a victim at a very low level of reception, in other words, near unconsciousness or unconsciousness or dead.
    Now the number of needles right here that are banging and theta-bopping as you try to set somebody up to get his tone arm on the clear reading at his or her sex is amazing and you noticed the number of theta-bops you are getting. Oh, man, did you ever have a dead body an-swer back? [laughter]
    Furthermore there are so many mysteries of what happened to it. See, there the guy lies, there’s not a mark on him and he is stone dead. Everything is present, cash is in his pockets, everything is in the apartment that should be there, except one sauce pan. See, and you say, you kind of ask him, “look, why are you dead, what are you dead about?” [laughter] He doesn’t say a word. Get it? Well, that’s a real weak valence but not everybody’s weak valence of course is a dead body, very far from it. Most of the weak valences I think you’ll find are composed of allies that took care of you when you were sick. Or you took care of them when they were sick, or vice-versa or back and forth or something and … overt … who’s…who’s the victim, you know, that sort of thing. The big question of ”Who’s the victim?“ comes up there. To establish who’s the weakest valence you simply ask the person that you’re processing, “Who’s the weakest person you know?” I could ask you now and you can remember what you said. “In this lifetime, who is the weakest person you ever knew?” Come on and answer it for yourself! “Who is the weakest person you ever knew in this lifetime?” You got one. Do you remember one? [“Yes!”] Ha? Now who actually got the facsimile of that person right inside their skulls? Did anybody here get the facsimile of the person you thought of right inside your skull? There’s one, there’s one. Now that’s the weakest valence to be run with the valence splitter. Just change your case around, just psh… sh… sh…
    And the rest of you didn’t think of anybody at all? You didn’t think of anybody at all! You did think of somebody? [“Yeah.”] You didn’t find anything sitting in the middle of your skull? [“No.”] Well, all right, you don’t have to have it sitting in the middle of your skull. Where was it? [Somebody answers.] Oh, all right, good. Now look-a-here! You are up against in trying to clear somebody merely the problem of eradicating the bank, you understand?
    But in making OT or trying to rehabilitate the ability of the person to postulate, to han-dle and be at cause over matter, energy, space, time, life, forms and so forth, you understand? Well now you add this up to what I just told you. An OT has horsepower, doesn’t he? Hmm? That would be an emanating horsepower, wouldn’t it? Right? Well, the trick is this. The bulk of the people you process will simply sit there with the characteristics of the weakest valence and process the weakest valence. And they don’t get processed at all. And the reason they do not suddenly come up the vine and develop tremendous horsepower all over the place — a simple reason. It’s because they just go on being this weakest valence, got it? Of course the weakest valence doesn’t have any horsepower. That’s what’s the matter with it!
    The lecture continues, but this covers the main points.

  193. HEY Marty, here is my retort to everything you have ever posted on this website.

    It’s called “When David Miscavige is dead and gone”

    play it far and wide


  194. Bryan, I’ll ask this question of you, although I’ve wanted to ask this of others for a long time. What is the Scientology definition of “reasonable?” It seems to be used as a substitute for “rationalize.” I’ve always considered being reasonable a good thing as opposed to its opposite. Yes, I have checked the dictionary – several, in fact – and still find that I can only make sense of the way it is used in Scientology if I substitute “rationalize”. Rationalize, as used in the psych concepts of a Defense Mechanism. Anyway, would appreciate claification on this from you or any one else. Thx

  195. Where is that spell checker?……clarification

  196. Ah, thank you both for the clarification.

  197. yes, I see. Hitler would be another visible SP but not to the nazis.

  198. Thank you again for the clarification Carcha.

    Troll or OSA, surely the best treatment is to ignore them.

    Probably irritates OSA more to be called a troll, something about not granting them beingness perhaps? Okay maybe I should avoid Sci speak.

    What I mean is it doesn’t acknowledge their awesome OSA abilities that were only caught by someone with superior training (a worthy opponent). Makes them somewhat pathetic if an ordinary “wog” says they can see they’re just trying to cause trouble.

    Either way troll is a derisory and belittling term that calls out someone as being ineffective in what ever it is they’re trying to do. Just a thought.

  199. Marty, I appreciate you posting the “Sentencing Memorandum”. If you take the trouble to post something I usually take the trouble to read it. I know your article “Scientology Inc “Justice” didn’t start out to be about the sentencing of the GO people, but I’m glad discussion dived off in that direction because it helps get truth out. So the crimes of the GO staff wasn’t just “about some stolen copy paper that the government over reacted to”. I believed that church hype too at the time. It’s nice to get some truth each day.

  200. RS,
    You are rippin butt today!

  201. RS:
    Way too funny on the letter to Ron from DM!! You know he was probably just like that …a snivelling little anti-social with no friends from the get go.
    And the Possible Truths +++1 geeze I can laugh so hard I think I’ll bust a gut.

    Interesting story about the letters. I bet I would have believed something outrageous about Ron’s OT ability to project letters through time and space by sheer intention…why not, it could be possible…just like the Forrest Gump story…he was such an amazing man with his box of choc-o-lates philosophy and all.

  202. And a lot still gets redacted out of any FOIA material released.

    I think part of the real point here is that “transparency” needs to be a two-way street, but it is not. The Government tends to feel it has the right to know all about us, but we the people do not have the right to know all about them. What the government is doing can be hidden by proclaiming it as matters of “national security”.

    There is an imbalance, and back then it was very evident.

    This is aside from any of the “heinous” acts of CoS, GO, or today, OSA agents or tools. Operation Freakout and the like stand as crimes in my book. Those are different from espionage(collection of information) as such.

  203. @Carcha,
    I would like to know the whole truth and nothing but the truth in regards to Ron and the church. Gathering the truth has been a tedious process, and too many people who spread information have an agenda so they hand pick information as a persuasive measure. There is lots to reject about the man as a husband, a father, the Founder etc. and I don’t mind discussing the negative as a matter of course, but in the end, not one person has delivered anything close to what he created. So all else pales in comparison. Good point on him making the money…he could have done a DM before DM!

  204. Marty,
    And so it continues…but now it is well established to anyone in the world who can read that Scientology is no little church in the vale, but they still use the same “we are victims” tactics. They dramatize the definition of insanity…doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.

  205. This is a wonderful post and some great commenting. Thanks all.

  206. @Tom great quote!

  207. Sometimes it is very difficult to think about L. Ron Hubbard. What if I think bad thougts about him? Do my wins vanish? Or did I have no wins as I did not admire him? Basically I personally have no right answers for those and similar questions. But as a kid I formulated 3 easy rules for my life. Rule 1: I cannot do everything I please. Rule 2: I cannot say everything I wanted to say. Rule 3: I can think every thought I want to think. Every thougt. Even if it to be the most bad thought that ever had been thought of. That rule 3 is crushing implants. My small body had quite a difficult time applying rule 3.

  208. CB,
    that is interesting because when I was on my OT levels at AOLA, I was looking forward to telling my wins to those who were still on metering drills, but DM ordered that the course room could no longer be interrupted for OTwins or completions. It makes sense he would cut that theta line. As far as class 5 orgs, I always remember clapping and hip hip horraying to LRH after course in the 70’s. I stopped doing it at events after he died because I thought it was stupid.

  209. Damn Random, where were you on Day 1 to see all that? I was around on Day 2 or 3 and I saw some good caring church managers and I aspired to be one myself as I received auditing and training daily on staff study to help me become more competent and happy. But I agree with some of your adjectives and in some situations. But you can’t just paint it all black.

  210. RS…that second paragraph is a great beginning to the bio of DM. Ahh, yes, he was concieved in the warm fertile manure produced by the CofS, in a dark, dirty little space in the corner of the abandoned outhouse…

  211. Briana Volta

    I haven’t read all the comments, but it appears as though Moving On Up a Little Higher has come to recognize that the actions of the G.O. were based on LRH’s spying tech and LRH’s covert dirty tricks tech, and on his orders, and that LRH ran the G.O., himself, and through his wife. Am I correct in that assessment?

  212. Carcha,
    Good point LOL, I never looked at the irony of wanting the FBI to go away and leave us alone, to now wanting the FBI to raid INT and arrest DM! Too funny.

  213. Dean,
    The religious perspectives you mention above go a long way toward clarifying your posts and point of view on the “religion” thread. However, as you’ve already implied, there are vastly many more, quite different and more interesting religious perspectives available that you might consider than the outliers represented by the Woodborough Baptist Church’s and creationist proponents.

  214. And I think Miscavige grew more as a weed in futile grown fertilized by his own bullshit.

  215. excuse typo please: “futile grown” should be “fertile ground”.

  216. I parked my reason at the front door for a lover once. It was actually one of the best experiences of my life. For that time period I was able to rise above my analytical mind.

  217. Yep, absolutely, Marty, in the late 70’s, church members were being relentlessly indoctrinated that the US Government and the FBI were firmly set on eradicating Scientology. I was a GO staff member at the time and there was an ongoing climate of paranoia. We spent four hours a day doing “vetting” all-hands. Some of you ex-GO guys probably participated in this craziness. Of course, “vetting” wasn’t about treating animals. It consisted of cutting out “key” words in Guardian Orders, GO programs, “sensitive” PLs, etc, using a cutter knife or a razor blade. When you were finished with a page, it looked like a piece of Swiss cheese. The “key” words were words that had been carefully selected as being “potentially incriminating”. Why go to all this trouble? Well, just in case we were hit by a police raid, of course. It was insane.

    After a few months, I had enough and asked to be transferred back to my former post, out of the GO. I found not one replacement for myself, but TWO. I was then told that as GO staff member, I couldn’t go back to a lower org (it was a Sea Org org). So I finally blew. But that’s another story.

  218. Hi Marty,

    The last two posts have been particularly brilliant and helpful.

    For example, Martgaret’s comment and link (regarding a scientist discussing the mind differentiated from the brain in the last post) gave me some wonderful tools ot use in working with my 90-year-old Mother-in-Law who is struggling with Ahlzheimers… I can assure you she is also very grateful.

    As always,

  219. Good process Marty… apart from having my head explode several times on the data, I definitely had gains on “overts of comparable magnitude”, realizing that mine were miniscule compared to those of the Church 🙂

  220. martyrathbun09

    Yeah, vetting backfired, as the blanks could be filled in by the opposition however they wanted and because they were vetted they were usually believed.

  221. martyrathbun09

    You are dubbing much in.

  222. martyrathbun09

    I realized through this exercise that I am taking a lot for granted in terms of what is “common knowledge”.

  223. martyrathbun09

    Your liberal use of extreme adjectives betrays your plea of reasonableness (in the dictionary, non-Scientology sense). Dude, I really think you need a vacation – be near water, it has an incredibly soothing effect on the soul.

  224. No, I don’t think you have grasped what is being said here. There is a LOT more to this picture.

  225. Random Stranger

    Yeah, those adjectives get me riled up every time. I try to steer clear of adverbs, though, they can really betray me. Thanks for the vacation idea, I’ve had a lot worse suggestions tossed at me. Hmmmm…

  226. Random Stranger


  227. Jewel, you are so right. “Ends Justify the Means” is a recipe for disaster, as it amounts to a GAMBLING with the very survival of that which you are trying to protect.

    In the case intentionally ordered and committed crimes by principals or agents of the CofS, GO or otherwise, those people, all of them, were putting the Church and the subject at risk, big time.

    As far as I know, the CofS won its war with the IRS by litigating them to the ground, mainly – a perfectly legal and valid strategy. So you are right – there are legitimate tools available to fight a war and win.

  228. Thank you the acknowledgement. I spend quite a bit of time chatting none confrontationally with Jehovah’s Witnesses and Mormons. It’s part of being in their religion that they need to spend so much time spreading the word I gather.

    I have two JW’s who come round for a chat quite often. Oddly we rarely talk religion these days, we just chat as friends do though I think they’re meant to be doing the rounds on the doors ministering to people. Still they know I won’t tell. 😉

    Also attend our local “inter faith” dialogs and was surprised to find another atheist there.

  229. Random Stranger

    I would start a paper recycling enterprise.

  230. Random Stranger

    Under D,

    I didn’t realize that through the creation of one single sentence I was obligated and restricted to that being the entirety of everything I had to say on the subject.

    The individual orgs who serviced public on training and processing were not part of the creation of strategies and operations, policies and philosophies of the international management of the Church of Scientology, which is what I am referring to above.

    I don’t paint it all black. Other colors exist. I have other sentences. Even paragraphs. Maybe a page or two. An infinite amount of lists. Some very true.


    Grayish Black with 10,000+ shades

    Blueish Black

    Purplish Black

    Orangish Black

    Black with a hint of yellow

    Black with ever-changing fractals of constantly evolving shades of the entire spectrum of light

    Coal Black

    Miscavige Black

  231. Random Stranger

    His own fertilizer alone was insufficient to allow the weed to get to the size it did in order to take over the entire garden.

  232. The whole establishment (state) v the church of scientology is one thing. The Paulette Cooper incident is completely different.

    Sure she wrote a critical book but the Guardian’s Office did all they could to destroy her, including attempting to “suicide” her; according to Paulette her “friend”, who she only found out much later was a GO plant, often tried to get her to join him to see the view from the edge of the building, she didn’t but things may have been different had she done so.

    In the end she was convicted and sent to prison for crimes she didn’t commit and was only released when the FBI raid turned up evidence that the GO had set her up.

  233. I believe the truely heinous acts of the Guardian’s Office were committed against Paulette Cooper because of what she wrote.

    One could argue this was part and parcel of the wider State v Church of Scientology thing but I can’t see it. The Guardian’s office tried to destroy her and damn near succeeded because she wrote a book they evidently couldn’t counter by legal means.

    The Guardian’s Office engaged in a protracted and highly organised campaign to have Paulette Cooper driven insane, commit suicide or be imprisoned. This was an attack on an individual with documented intent.

  234. Carcha wrote: “The FBI “back then”, attacked the church; “today”, we wish the FBI would attack the church. ”

    First of all, you don’t speak for any “we” around here.

    Second of all, “attack the church” is a DM propaganda line. David Miscavige is *not* “the church” and the only thing I’ve seen promoted around here is that David Miscavige should be brought to justice before he commits an atrocity on the level of the Jonestown mass murder.

    Michael A. Hobson
    Independent Scientologist

  235. Dittos.

  236. I mean if you wanted to have some comm cycle going. Not if you were David Miscavige.

  237. “David Miscavige” is a wrong item. Out of all the never-ending criticism I have heard about this man, it did not give me a thread of explanation of what is wrong with the Church of Scientology as an organization without thousands of members both staff and public and possibly thousands more that practice Scientology outside of the Church. And despite the fact that this man was addressed by countless individuals and I believe a number of books such as “Inside Scientology,” the problem with the Church has not come to any resolution. (I did not read “Inside Scientology” in full because it felt like it was feeding me the wrong “why’s” and useless information from the get-go.)

    I feel like Scientologists who may be in the know are continuously withholding vital information both inside and outside of the Church. Scientology is supposed to be all about truth, simplicity, and resolution, yet I have never felt as confused and frustrated over lack of resolution ever since I made my initial contact with the world of Scientology.

  238. Typo: *with thousands of members (not “without).

  239. wow. I saw Paulette’s Wikepidea page ( and it totally hit me with a wave of theta. She looks like a person of goodwill. It also indicated that I may find some useful information in her book. She published it back in 1971 and that was waaaayyyy before the problem with DM that never indicated to me as the only source of trouble at the Church to begin with. The problems already existed way, way before David Miscavige “took office.” It will be interesting to see what Paulette wrote in her book.

  240. I am thinking maybe DM was a man trying to cover something up for LRH and Scientology, and he is still trying to do so up to present day through his massive “alter-is” PR campaign of what Scientology is truly all about. It seems like the practice of “alter-is” may have started, who knows, maybe from the very inception of this field.

  241. Li'll bit of stuff

    Lizabeth, thanks! The dots are there to connect!

  242. Knock yourself out. You should also read Marc Headley, Amy Scobee and Jeff Hawkins’ books. You should read all the posts on this blog. And the books listed in the Recommended Reading section. This will help you to come to some conclusions for yourself about the problems relating to the church of Scientology.

  243. Li'll bit of stuff

    Hey, Teacha, you’re lookin’ good, and thanks tooo
    yooo, for your teachin’ I’m doin better too!!
    ( ‘cept fo’ muh spellin’ tho! flunked…sorrie.)

  244. IMHO and it really is IMHO, LRH aspired to all the things he claimed of scientology.

    I know may quote him as saying if you want to to make money stary a religion but I feel it was more complex than that.

    My guess is LRH actually meant well despite his other motives. I’m fairly sure he believed what he said, as sure as I am he was a victim of his own success.

    The moral of the story is,IMHO, don’t be a religious leader be a philosopher; you will probably die poorer but in much better mental and spiritual health.

  245. Li'll bit of stuff

    TO, some wonderful posts coming from you on this
    round, and yeah, let’s remind others too of the just
    ENORMOUS contributions made by others who also
    did their bit to unselfishly promote LRH’s genius
    works into the diverse world surrounding us.

    Additional gifted LRH proponents of the past, include:
    Ruth Minshull * Miracles For Breakfast (child raising)
    ( author ) …… * How to Choose Your People (Use of
    …………………… tone scale in spotting and handling
    …………………… all tones in those we deal with.)
    …………………..* Efficiency.
    …………………..* Ups and Downs.
    …………………. * When in Doubt – Communicate.
    Peter Gillham * Fundamentals of Success.
    ( C.A. OT VII )… * Tell It Like It Is ( Dissem.)
    ( Class VIII)

    This may turn out to be a very large thread, If the
    inputs of (Historian) Indies can get ignited here !!!

    What say, y’all ?

  246. Just Some Guy

    >the fact that thousands (conservative estimate) of people have gotten gains from auditing, and at present ,people still do get gains from auditing, is simply an unintended byproduct of his true intentions.

    …or that auditing “tech” wasn’t original to Hubbard.

  247. Li'll bit of stuff

    Gotta agree, firing on all 50 cylinders!!!!!!!!!

  248. con·text/ˈkäntekst/
    The circumstances that form the setting for an event, statement, or idea, and in terms of which it can be fully understood and assessed.

    Once long ago, Vic Krohn advised me to study the US Constitution in context. So I found a set of encyclopedic dictionaries and cleared every archaic word until I understood where the framers were coming from.

    I found, for me at least, that the US Constitution, if followed, is very nearly perfect and can exist as a model of good government for a very long time. I didn’t know this until my thirties despite having a “government” class senior year high school.

    I think anything that people have written needs to be taken “in context”. What were the times? What was the news? Who was doing what, where in THAT time frame. It has to be studied with reality for where the author was, was they were doing, and what the world was engaged in around them.

    Just a quick reading at Wikipedia;s J. Edgar Hoover’s entry leads me to believe that perhaps there was reason for LRH’s vitriol (cruel and bitter criticism), perhaps he felt freer of expression about it in the years after Hoover’s passing.

    Did LRH use strong, theatrical language? Yes? Was he right or wrong? I can’t say as I wasn’t there at the time and cannot know what the level of robotism was that was being reached within the organization that might have caused him to reign in the rhetoric. Can I judge by the results that there was some robotism. In my view – yes. I have never understood what on earth made the GO think they could just go and do that and not come a cropper.

    Did Marty use words that were objectionable? Perhaps not to him and this IS him blog. Disagreeing with LRH is not a crime.

    An opinion I might offer is that “hateful crimes” seems more correct than “heinous” crimes since the latter are understood by the majority of people to be the type punished by death, or at least incarceration until death, such as murder, rape, torture and mutilation.

    I myself am ambivalent about the FBI. Imho, It performs some necessary actions to keeping the peace within the borders of the union, however, I feel that it oversteps it’s charter and boundaries far too often on the whim of folks who shouldn’t be directing their actions. As some have illustrated here with the links to YouTube videos. This isn’t recent, it’s been going on for some time.

    And of course, this long-winded response has just been my two cents.

  249. “this IS him blog” should be “this IS his blog”

  250. Constitution perfect? Slavery and all? – Marty, from Mosey’s computer.

  251. got it. Thanks. It works for me.

  252. Mosey, from MY understanding of the constitution, that problem should have been swiftly taken care of IF the Constitution was followed.

    It’s my opinion that far too often special interests aka those who think they are above it all, interfere with the actual execution of the Constitution.

  253. Jewel, agreed. You said-
    “I stopped doing it at events after he died because I thought it was stupid.”

    Agreed. My point is also from a wider view and assuming other viewpoints. What if one wants to bring a friend to an event, a green person. What would he think of the clapping? What if a new beginning Scientologists is in the course room, and at end of period, we now are all supposed to clap to a picture of LRH?

  254. Hrm…well okay, that was too Marty at Mosey’s computer 🙂

  255. To be fair to Carcha there have been numerous calls by others for the FBI to intervene.

    There was also the articles about why the FBI investigation was dead in the water before it went anywhere. IIRC Mike and Marty have both spoken with the FBI too.

    Also, looking back on L Ron Hubbard’s own missives he does make numerous references to the state and agents of the state, FBI and IRS etc, being involved in efforts against the church of scientology. Certainly operation Snow White was instigated as part of a counter to such attacks.

    Basically it’s not unreasonable for Carcha to presume others want the FBI to do something and that is the “we” to which (s)he refers.

    As to the Jonestown, I didn’t think it was something David Miscavige would do but others, more qualified than I to judge, believe it most certainly it.

  256. “Mike and Marty have both spoken with the FBI” should be qualified with “I believe” – pretty sure I’ve seen several references to one or both and the FBI.

  257. martyrathbun09

    Re-read it – you didn’t understand it quite as thoroughly as you first asserted you did.

  258. Great to get a reply from you Mike. I watched through many of your interviews and have read through most of this blog including the commentaries as well as other websites on Marty’s “Blogroll” list. I also looked through Paulette’s book. It’s free on the net ( It is quite enlightening to see that the complaints regarding Scientology that exists today are almost exactly the same they were back in 1971 when Ron Hubbard was well alive and running the thing. The machinery of “evil” already existed back then BUT aside from Paulette’s personal horror story it seems that even according to her own book most of those tactics were directed toward external “enemies” of the movement while you had a green light to practice Scientology as a Scientologist all you wanted (this is my understanding from gathering data from old-timers). LRH set everything up, good and bad, and it makes sense that someone could come in as a virus inside a mighty machinery to continue corrupting the structure, eliminating and changing things here and there, little by little… and eventually we end up with a very different machine that is similar only in appearance. I believe this is how genetic engineering of plants is accomplished – by infecting it with a virus that changes its genetic structure. You end up with a tomato that still looks like a tomato but may have very different properties and may actually be unhealthy for consumption. I think this may be a good analogy of what we are dealing with in Scientology.

    Scientology as a practice and a group dynamic has been corrupted and transformed into a giant scam (i.e. GAT and IAS). Sec checks that were rarely used on troublesome individuals in order to safeguard the organization have now been made mandatory on upstat Scientologists trying to get through OT levels. Attack tactics that were designed for truly suppressive sources on the outside are now used against Scientologists themselves who quote LRH, expose out-points, and try to better the organization… or even simply attempt to practice Scientology outside of the oppressive control by the Church.

    It makes sense that someone who was probably somewhat insecure, who wanted all the glory for himself could have incrementally usurped the power that was established by the Founder in order to promote one’s own agenda to an eventual detriment of Scientology and Scientologists themselves. Am I finally getting on the right track? I’ll keep on gathering more data, but I think I am finally starting to see the light.

  259. Dean, what is “IMHO”? See my reply to Mike above. I think I am finally starting to understand.

  260. Cool. I understand.

  261. In my opinion, and from my experience and education: I estimate that Miscavige is probably a pipsqueak in the eyes of International Bankers, and a mere blip on their radar which has been around for a long time. He won’t be in their board room. But I suspect they open doors for him as long as he keeps destroying the C of S and turning it into manageable real estate (MEST).

    It is a despicable trick DM perfected of taking the one thing closet to the hearts of people, Scientologist’s desire for happiness and freedom and their desire to help others, and turning all those sincere efforts into MEST. It’s DM’s “bait and switch” scam. Take theta and turn it into MEST and entheta, of which the MEST (real estate) is a bankable commodity whether the tech of Scientology works in “his world” or not. Whether it’s the billions of dollars from Scientologists wanting to help or get help
    by donating to the church or the theta out poured by those staff and Sea Org members who go for dozens of years thinking that they have their shoulder to correct wheel. Either way, it’s “bait and switch”.

    But I never got the idea LRH considered the International Bankers a “stop” or a barrier. He spoke of them in the references I’m sure you have read as well such as RJ67. But I feel that THE INTERNATIONAL BANKERS WERE A BLIP ON LRH’S RADAR SCREEN. They were never listed as a “why” (handle-able cause) that I know of, and thus viewing them as such has never opened any doors to any “handlings” that I know of.

    Getting rid of DM would be KSW. That would be a correct handling for a correct cause (of suppression) and consistent as such per eval tech. Getting rid of Int Bankers isn’t a “do-able” thing. Not something Scientology handles. Scientology raises awareness and then people can look around for themselves and see who the bad guys are. The int. bankers do make a good read and research for those who have the time, as else one never gets to find out who is really running our government and almost all the other governments on this planet. They have made progress on the plans LRH stated they had in RJ 67.

  262. He was a Kudzo invasive plant.

  263. Sorry Random, that pendulum swing on “from day 1” swung over so far it hit my wall here and I thought DM or some other SP was knocking at my door. Just take me fishing if you go on vacation near water like Marty says.

  264. To: LTC Forever. I read Hubbard’s Dianetics-Evolution of a Science back in 1971 and was thrilled and it was the only contact I had with Scientology. In other words all I had was the book. Then I was very thirsty for more but couldn’t find any of Hubbard’s books in the stores. Soon after that I saw Paulette Cooper’s Book on a rack in a liquor store and spent my last couple of dollars for it because it had the word “Scientology” in the title. I read her whole book as a naive teenager just the same as I did LRH’s book. I was very disappointed with Paulette’s writing as it just seemed like poison towards Hubbard’s book that I had just finished and Hubbard had won me over based on his sanity. Paulette was anything but sane in my view as a naive teenager and I knew nothing about them other than both of their books. I concluded at that time which was over over 40 years ago that Paulette was earning her fame on the back of L Ron Hubbard. But I don’t think Paulette should have been harmed by the church. The church was stupid to do that. They didn’t need to. Why bother? Naive teens like myself at that time turned away from that kind of poisonous soap opera writing. That’s how I viewed her writing as a youngster. I hated soap operas and all that covertly hostile crap. I though Paulette was lying just to earn some money. That was my impression as a naive teen fresh out of High School never having met a Scientologist living in the sticks totally off the grid.

  265. More to LTC Forever: Additionally re: Paulette Cooper. I know nothing else about her other than having read her book called I believe “The Scandal of Scientology” back in 1971. I haven’t and never will look at any website she may have. I remember her as one of the reasons I got into Scientology in 1971 as I was pulled towards Scientology by L Ron Hubbard’s book I read and was further pushed towards Scientology by Paulette Cooper’s writing as it seemed negative with a vindictive purpose and I was trying to get away from negative people. I remember that quiet clearly which was more than 40 years ago. That’s my “in the eyes of a child” story, as I was a child making decisions in the world on my own for the first time, and I really felt Hubbard wanting to help and knowing how, and I felt in my heart Paulette had some other purpose: like to make some money or get famous by bashing something. If you read Dianetics or Scientology books, you get the truth, but don’t go to a church of Scientology.

  266. IMHO – In My Humble Opinion.

  267. +! Applause!

  268. Hi, Li’ll bit! Yes, good selections, and I know I’m ‘preaching to the choir’, but for the sake of interest I’ll post anyway. Short verion of below: one must be willing and able to be at effect.

    (Longer version of above.) Yes, axiom of Scn #1, flow O – there are the four flows to be considered (another to self, self to another, others to others, and self to self), and any effect is better than no effect (so we agree to a lot of games, just to play). One does create effects on self, and perhaps ultimately that is Factor 2. “Nobody” posted below “THE RULE OF THE WEAK VALENCE”. And LRH is focused on auditing and resolving cases, on fixed attention demanded by others, and this is deeply interesting in how to free attention from fixation. Consider the basis of various schools of martial arts, that one uses one’s opponent’s force against him. The same applies in auditing with a different slant, to improve: you use the PC’s comm to allow him to unravel the bank; you use his willingness to be there and create you and the session; you rely on his willingness to answer, his urge to survive, and those are essentials to a session.

    I’m saying (my observations or interpretations) that the first part of comm is attention: You (“you” in general literary form) have to see something before you can communiate to and with it. That attention or perception, is an inflow. You scan the landscape, and there’s a person. You inflowed that perception. Now you can yell, “Hey, you!” and get their attention. That’s a communication cycle, because you can see you have their attention, and that they inflowed your comm (“Hey, you!”). If you drop out words, it’s the same thing. You see someone, you inflow that data that someone is considering themselves to be located there, considering they can be there, considering they can be seen,

    To live successfully one must acknowledge that one is effect of God – not hard, really. One acknowledges one is. Hmm. Has to be some reason for that! Cause and effect. Well, OK Factor 1, but there’s also Factor 2. Let’s face it guys: God preceded LRH; and all of us had our chance to be LRH. He looked hard enough to get a standard (a very high one), we didn’t; he got there first. Still, even with LRH’s work, one has to inflow what Creation is all about, and ask questions. Those questions are what LRH sorted out. How? By being at effect of what he could see. It’s basic Dianetic theory to create the bad leg, and allow the good leg to be. Man has his desire to be cause before being effect. Socrates was bright enough to ask questions, first. So if one wishes to comm successfuly to someone, one looks first to see who that person is, what’s on their mind, what’s up, what their attention is on, and so forth. Theoretically, one can comm to anyone under any circumstances, but in the practical world of limitations most of us face, we might prefer not to comm. I think I’ve got that part right. One assesses a PC before auditing so one can ask questions or run procedures the PC will find pertinent and thus begin to sort out for himself. It’s science of observation and proper procedure as regards the spirit..

    I acknowledge I probably shouldn’t post philosophical-scientific here, since this forum or blog is directly about politics of straightening out comm lines. I’m not trying to be cute: we all know pretty much what the issues are here, we have the practicality, and the deeper philosophy is useful, but the correct thing is being done here: exposing fact and differentiating it from fiction, or as per axiom of Scn #11, getting an as-is-ness to vanish an alter-is-ness, or in colloquial, truth over “PR”. Creating the “bad church” to allow the original creation of the “good church” to emerge (the intent of it, the function of it). I’d just like to keep the philosophy straight so that we do not repeat the mistakes of the Co$ and start superimposing our “rightness” over others. And a lot of people agree on that. If it were possble to “tell” someone to be right, then we wouldn’t need to audit. One must be willing and able to be at effect. Then one can be intelligent cause and really help someone else to be at cause over their own creations of universe, etc..

    And there, submitted for your consideration, is justice, made by oneself and to share with others, a beautiful thing, in a wonderful world, doing justice to God and His spirit-blowing Creation, with peace, love, and true appreciation. The definition of justice includes reward for merit, and “conformity to truth, fact, or reason” (Webster).


  269. Sorry, paragraph 2 above should be “Yes, axiom of Scn #10” (ten), not 1 (one). Bad typo.

  270. Well, hmm…

    First, I did say “I found, ***for me*** at least, that the US Constitution, if followed, is very ***nearly*** perfect ”
    (asterisk emphasis added for clarity)

    Since this seems to be some sort of bone of contention, I’ll rephrase it.

    “I found, for me at least, that the US Constitution, was a more perfect form, or model, of government than existed in it’s time and perhaps even now.”

    Does that sit better with you?

    The question of slavery now. I’m not pro-slavery of any being, nor am I a slavery apologist – and refuse to be since I have no reason to assume that beingness currently. If, for some reason, I find out differently, then my viewpoint will no doubt change.

    The US Constitution did not institute slavery although it has been argued that it allowed it to continue,

    However, I cannot personally say that the framers were incorrect as I’m not certain what their actual alternatives were at that time. As it was, the issue still resulted in a Civil War, but can we be sure that a Civil War, or some other armed conflict, at the time of the writing would have been correct?

    Had they gone ahead and outlawed slavery in that document, would it have ever been ratified? If it had been ratified and the South somehow bowed to pressure, what economic upheaval would it have created, how broad of an upheaval, and what then would the result be?

    Perhaps there was something else they could have done – I don’t know the answers to these last so will have to let this rest as that.

  271. Mike – Sorry, please don’t think I presume to speak for you or anyone else here, or that I somehow definitively understand all of the current scenes. This is not at all the case. I do fully recognize there are many different viewpoints represented here, probably most much more informed than mine, and many wiser. “We” was just a way of phrasing. I was trying to make a philosophical point more than a political one, and also did not differentiate clearly between “the church” and the current management whether that be Miscavige alone or Miscavige + entourage, or really “who” the FBI actually is and whether it is the FBI or the DoJ who is running (or not running) that show. – Carcha.

  272. Dean, Thank you. That was what I meant. I understand you are not “a Scn” but I very much admire your very acute mind and polished demeanor. – Carcha.

  273. Maybe he was speaking for the 5000 people that signed the petition for the U.S. gov to investigate the Church. Maybe he was speaking for all of those that gave testimony to the F.B.I.. Those are quite a few on this forum. More than one constitutes a “WE” as in plural. Yes, there is a “we” that falls into that catagory. Perhaps you did not see the petition that was promoted? Perhaps you were not aware that certain people on this forum assisted the F.B.I. ? The Church management / intelligence has used the F.B.I. as an instrument for it’s own justice. Why shouldn’t I? I am not supposed to matter? I will tell you what the difference has always been between myself and the “fanatics”. The fanatics thought Hubbard was more important than they were. The fanatics think DM is more important than they are. Otherwise someone or many would have kicked his ass already. “Self importance” is FINE with me. I don’t have a problem with it. I am at the top of the list of who is most important to me, ME! And if I didn’t think I was important, I would never have gotten into Scientology to invest in MYSELF first, others second. You cannot CARE about others unless you can CARE about yourself. Look at all of those people up at Int who “dedicated their lives toward helping mankind”. The most abusive unsympathetic little soldiers you would want to meet as comrades in today’s society. Most of them will turn on you like a rat at the drop of a golden rod. When has it EVER been allowed to write a non enturb order on one of those most enturbulative CMO entities? They run it that only they are important. Too important to follow the same rules the others are burdened by. If you think that system needs to be protected and preserved, speak for yourself! Do not speak for “us”!

  274. LTC – Thanks for your post. I run into the same problems, trying to gather info about what is now sadly a difficult history (reading, talking). I’d just like to add that the scope of what LRH was trying to accomplish is truly huge – a solution to Mankind’s problems and woes going back God knows how long. And that is still alive and well today in the hands of those who have studied and can use it. Its value is immeasureable. It’s sad that in trying to add beauty to this life, there have been derailments. Par for the course, I guess. – Carcha.

  275. Dean – FWIW, LRH had a very good sense of humor, and I think his quip about making money by starting a religion is just a quip (Like Randy Newman’s song, “God’s Song” : “That’s why I love mankind … you really NEEED Me”). Similarly, “R2-45” (allegedly firing blanks over an audience’s head) – it may indeed have frightened some people literally out of their skulls (exterior), but was not meant to be taken seriously. I’m not sure anyone understands the level of goodness and desperation to try to help, with answers, but limited time, and the imperative to get the message understood. – Carcha.

  276. Li'll bit of stuff

    Underdog, good pointing up of additional data.
    Without the ready references to the actual LRH
    materials, the simple “dot connection” exercise still applies, I believe.
    The International banking system / s, as with many fiscal and monetary policies, are, deliberately cloaked in complexity and move in ambiguous pointed out in some
    eye opening accounts on this very blog.

    The ‘via’s, or deviations from clear cut, open
    and transparent deal making, amongst sides,
    are absolutely necessary, to accomplish the
    hidden agendas and destructive goals they have set themselves!

    In a word ……CAMOUFLAGE !

    Whether in the form of a chameleon, lion fish,
    preying mantis, Venus Fly-Trap, World Bank,
    FBI or countless others, including our very
    own beloved “saviour” the Church of Scn,
    all are absolutely dependent on the use of
    effective conceal, that one is
    entering a trap! (or becoming a meal!!)

    Simplicities, observation of, shatter these
    complexities, and lay bare the hidden intent!

    Predators, to survive, DEPEND on PREY!

    corollary ;The only guarantee of freedom,
    …………….. ETERNAL VIGILANCE!!!

    U/D, thanks, for the collaboration……Li’ll bit

  277. Thank you for the compliment Carcha.

  278. Li'll bit of stuff

    Wow, Carcha, on top of your “game” with this!
    Thanks for some interesting posits and extrapolations.
    While I just love reading your juxtapositions and learned
    essays, for me, I just reach for my old tattered copy of
    original LRH O – 8, and just go through the Scn and Dn
    AXIOMS, and the FACTORS, on a daily basis.

    These unshakable stable data, do a pretty effective job
    of allowing one to share your viewpoint, and that of

    Thank YOU,……….Li’ll bit

  279. Iirc the church of scientology went to a great deal opf trouble, affidavits and the iike to claim L Ron Hubbard said no such thing about starting a religion to make money. You could have saved them a lot of time, effort and money with sure he said it but come on the guy had a sense of humour he was just kidding.

    Imho opinion I see starting or leading a religion, even with the best intentions, as fraught with pit falls. I have argued that regardless of intent LRH was a victim of his own creation (the paranoia and seclusion etc of his final years) and in a way I feel Miscavige is a victim too.

    I did once consider setting up my own religion but my conscience saved me; i don’t like abusing people.

  280. LOL! (I just got that.) Yes, TA is yet another acronym which is (in my own words) the cumulative measure of needle action in a session. When unresolved areas in an individual’s life are contacted (and he immediately ‘gets it’ and begins to talk about them, to resolve them), the needle (interestingly) “blows down”, or falls off to the right of the dial, indicating that some mental mass has dissipated. Adjusting the needle with a manually operated swivel (TA) activates a simple mechanical counter to keep track of adjustments necessary to (try to) keep the needle on the dial. Thus the “session TA” and “TA action”. This is (in very brief) what is so fascinating about Dn (Dianetics), Scn, and auditing. Once you’ve seen it, and have heard someone talking about how now they understand something at the same time the needle is blowing down, one tends to not forget it. Your description “Tits & Arse” would probably get a “fall” of the needle in most males of the species (recall of pleasure moments produces that needle reaction on most individuals as worries and other mental masses are temporarily displaced from the present time or present mind-set). The subjective experience is one of relief, lightening up, and this is why people are so nuts about Hubbard and what he discovered. One can also improve one’s clarity of mind to some extent by concentrated study of virtually any subject, as one is ‘tearing’ attention away from subjective concerns into the subject. Subjective auditing actually erases the subjective concerns attention can and often does get stuck on. It’s more than a doc or nurse pinching your arm before giving you a shot to get your attention off the imagined “pain” of a tiny pin-prick. Someone should do a consented-to video of a live session, showing the TA and dial of the e-meter, but then there’d be those who would claim it was all an orchestrated set-up done with hidden electronics, and would demand a glass table-top. – Carcha.

  281. sure.

  282. Oracle,
    Thank you. My comments are simply my reaction to what I considered to be a degrade of LRH without any purpose other than the to show he was a liar. If that was what you intended, then that came through. If it was not your intention, then I missed the purpose of the communication. I don’t know you or your experiences, so I only responded to the words. I have no ill will toward you at all because I don’t know you, and I can’t say that I have harbor much in that direction anyway.

    I am well aware that there is the good, bad, ugly regarding LRH. The only thing I’m selling, so to speak, is the fact that if negative stuff about someone is important to promote, then I would like to know the reason. You know, like focusing on the fact that Martin Luther King was a ‘horndog’, cheating on his wife…it wasn’t very preacher like, it wasn’t very gracious behavior toward his marriage, but all in all, it doesn’t change the good he did for the nation/world. That is all I was selling. I just used my own experiences to explicate that point.

    I am interested in finding out more about you and your experience with Scientology and or LRH.
    Peace to you,

  283. JSG,
    you got that i was being sarcastic about the ‘unintended byproduct”, right?
    I’m sure that the ‘tech’ is not 100% Hubbard if you analyze bits and pieces. However, the overall body of prodedures and OT levels that I did, I think reflect his study because I am not aware of anything exactly like it.
    What part(s) of the tech do you consider to be strictly not his? Can you give me an example? I would be very interested to see this.

  284. RS: That a done see the light.

  285. CB: I forgot to mention that the clapping hurray stuff was only in the academy. Our div 6 was entirely separate. I never did like the hip hip stuff, but as staff, it was part and parcel…and as long as I’m at , I think the empty LRH offices are a little much as well. okay, so maybe I’m no fun.

  286. Oracle and Charcha, Agreed! I know I signed the petition, and I was hoping that the FBI would really follow through. It has been stated on this blog that ‘the church is dead”…and many bloggers have stated not only their upset with the main ass, DM, but upset toward the ones who do see his out ethics behavior and do nothing but feed it!
    So, the use of ‘we’ fits for some readers. If it doesn’t fit, don’t wear it.

  287. the constitution was not intended for black slaves, indians, or women. just as the idea of education excluded those groups until jefferson decided that a few of the best male children from the best families should be used, with the shared intention from washington, that they would then serve as officers. it was horace mann who really pushed the idea of education for all. women fought for equality for property ownership and the right to vote because it was not included in the constitution. america was not founded on freedom for all; it was founded on the idea of freedom for the white elite–everyone else has had to fight for the right to be included, and eventually “freedom for all’ meant the entire populace.

  288. Thank you for taking the time to provide such a detailed explanation, much appreciated Carcha.

  289. Correction: Paulette was never tried on those charges, let alone convicted and jailed. The prosecution decided not to go to trial after Paulette underwent a sodium pentathol test. But the charges hung over her, nevertheless, until she received the call to tell her that the FBI had found evidence that she was framed by the church.

  290. Holy crap, you’re correct. Thank you for the correction. Don’t know where I got the idea she was jailed from. >.< Doh.

  291. Marty,

    Only getting to read this now, and most people have moved on to your later blogs.

    Most fascinating set of arguments presented here within these comments!

    Though I certainly could never purport to share your own knowledge and experience leading up to your set of conclusions I believe I can share at least some of your understanding and ability to differentiate.

    It has been my own experience that trying to debate or reason with some Scientologists who have been indoctrinated for 20 years or more to accept and adopt certain “facts” at face value, I don’t believe you “need an editor” (as you of course well know), but possibly be more patient with those who are still stuck in a certain mindset, which for any long-term Scientologist, pre- or post-DM is very hard to shake.

    I had to personally read a lot of other views and research many other facets and really discipline myself to stay objective and attempt to be logical, to start to make sense out of it all, and though I am still missing much significance and facts, I believe I have enough first-hand knowledge and enough general reserach and data study to be able to apply logic and reason to it all.

    I see that many commeting here almost naturally demand a black and white answer or statement, coupled with fixed ideas or too much reliance on something they read previously and adopted as their own, not to mention those who gets mired down in the literalness and semantics of a statement. So of course when you attempt to condense a HUGE topic with too much background information to present a black and white answer and understanding in a few paragraphs, you of course will get the sort of feedback that has transpired in this particular blog thread, though many seem to follow you and share the same broad perspective which is great to witness.

    I just wanted to say that I really appreciate your unreasonable logic which deals in 100% differentiation and if anything I could suggest a bit more compassion towards those who are still thinking, at least partially in identities and similarities for the purpose of bringing about a greater understanding and self-inspection, which would only be beneficial for the majority.

    I always have a hard time to relate to the emtremes which some tend to derive out of the literal and limited understanding from disecting some sentences that you write, but on the other hand it has helped me tremendeously in bettering my own perspectives as well as becoming more pan-determined while broadening my views and clarifying events of the past.

    My own admiration for LRH has never and will never lessen and my only question, out of pure interest, has only been to what degree he made some of his statements based on his own data, or the data and evaluation provided by others, as it appears to me that his most logical and sensible directions on subjects not pertaining to the auditing technology best can be best related to when based on his own, 100% sole research, inspection and evaluation.

    If someone finds and proves that something LRH did or said is incorrect or not true or some other undesirable qualifier, it doesn’t make the workable aspects of Scientology less workable and that is the only thing that is important, the rest is mainly an interesting subject for debate.

    Thanks for listening, Ulf

Leave a Reply

Fill in your details below or click an icon to log in: Logo

You are commenting using your account. Log Out /  Change )

Twitter picture

You are commenting using your Twitter account. Log Out /  Change )

Facebook photo

You are commenting using your Facebook account. Log Out /  Change )

Connecting to %s