OT Abilities


A very interesting discussion has broken out at Leaving Scientology. It was prompted by Jeff Hawkins’ provocative post OT Abilities, http://leavingscientology.wordpress.com/2011/03/13/ot-abilities/ .  Steve “Thoughtful” Hall has weighed in on the subject too, http://www.scientology-cult.com/flying-teapots-and-parlor-tricks.html

It is a great topic for discussion, particularly in light of the fact that Miscavige’s church, unlike LRH’s, has effectively censored the subject of discussion of OT abilities. Compare current church publications to the ones Jeff recounts editing under LRH’s watch in church publications of the 70’s.

I don’t approach the subject quite like Jeff does. I think he – having not experienced or acknowledged or claimed any OT abilities – approaches it “glass half empty.” Having experienced, acknowledged or claimed otherwise, I approach it “glass half full.”

Admittedly, Jeff is more liberal in his moderation policy than I. I often deny long, rambling posts designed to denigrate and invalidate LRH and the benefits of Scientology; or ones that disclose content of upper level material. That is because – in addition to my concern that the latter in particular could confuse and lengthen a person’s journey up the bridge – I am informed many on-lines, active church of Scientology members frequent my blog because I do respect such concerns. Many who have left the Miscavige’s implant stations have told me it was safe to look, starting with my blog and what they learned here opened their eyes and helped them to break their shackles.

In either case, a complete discussion and view of the subject of OT abilities would entail the whole spectrum of experience and viewpoint. So I am opening the discussion here particularly to those with a “glass half full” viewpoint; and encouraging those who want to see all viewpoints also link over to Jeff’s discussion.

At the outset, I want to make it known that I disagree with what I consider Jeff’s rigid “objectivism” approach.

I think even under non-Scientological standards it is not a reliable approach to getting at TRUTH.

To support that proposition I recommend two non-Scientology works.

First, psychologist/philosopher William James’ The Will To Believe. You can find it by googling the author and title. James argues that to deny the importance of belief and unexplainable or undemonstable spiritual perception and phenomena is as blind as engaging in blind faith. He notes that the most “scientific thinkers” who would deny the existence of the physically undemonstrable are as biased and blind as the most zealous religionists.

Second, Ken Wilbur’s A Brief History of Everything. Wilbur lays out a complete analysis of the subject of logic and scientific thought. A lynchpin of his analysis is that to deny the personal, subjective view is to deny the complete TRUTH from being attained.

Having said that, here is my answer to Jeff’s thoughtful question about the possibility of OT.

My personal experience is that the further I move up the Bridge, the more stable and frequent are my perceptions of my personal abilities to communicate telepathically and to effortlessly cause events to occur through postulate. Can I demonstrate that to prove it? I can and do to those with a similar reality and sufficiently regular communication  with me to experience it. Can I get up on a stage and show disbelievers? No. For me it has to be effortless. It occurs when I get into Action and Games on the tone scale for sufficient periods that I begin to transcend to the level of Postulates. Don’t get me wrong – I don’t hang there all the time. I experience a whole panoply of emotion, including below 2.0 just like everybody else. But, when I get focused on possibility, and off of bands closer to effort, succumb and MEST, it just comes. I see a direct corollary to my ability to do so to Scientology training and processing. Which leads to the other “ability” I think is enhanced by Scientology auditing and training. That is the ability to disenturbulate entheta in another and to the degree that occurs to restore more free theta to him or her. And that leads them higher up the tone scale towards Action, Games, Postulates and beyond.

Jeff would apparently argue that perhaps that all I claim to experience is simply random “psychic” coincidence and does not rise to the level of ability. I can’t prove him wrong unless he perceives and agrees to what I perceive and agree with. Nor can he prove me wrong, unless I perceive and agree with what he does.

I do, though, thank Jeff for helping me to clarify for myself what I know and what I believe.

As my friend Jeff says, I yield the floor…


682 responses to “OT Abilities

  1. JREF’s $1,000,000 Paranormal Challenge Now Easier Than Ever
    The James Randi Educational Foundation (JREF) announced on Wednesday that the organization’s famed Million Dollar Paranormal Challenge would be opened to more new applicants, with a lower bar for entry. The JREF holds $1 million in an investment account at a New York financial firm1, ready to be awarded to anyone who can demonstrate a paranormal ability under fair conditions that prevent fraud or error.

    So have at it Marty! I’ve met Randi several times and followed his work for the last 25. He will give you a honest test, and you will fully participate in the test protocol.
    If you have OT abilities, please have them tested.
    If you are successful, I promise to all your readers that will read the Dianetics out loud on Time Square in New York in my Speedos.

  2. martyrathbun09

    I think he would have to take away the money incentive in order to get what he wants to spend a million dollars to see.

  3. Marty — great discussion.

    And, as you say, one that really cannot be demonstrated or proven. Not really.

    However, one can look at ones life and see — better … not so good.

    And this must have something to do with ones OT or spiritual abilities, I would say.

    A nice car doesn’t keep itself nice. A junky car, doesn’t make itself junkier (other than of course months/years of neglect).

    My point is — there is SOMETHING beyond what is visible. I don’t think Jeff disagrees with this, by the way.

    AND the more you connect WITH that which isn’t visible (Heaven) the more the physical (Earth) becomes imbued with “magical” qualities.

    Magical qualities come from Heaven really. Those moments when — wow — everything seems to line up and the plane is waiting for you instead of taking off, your luggage comes off first, there is a taxi waiting seemingly just for you and you make it IN TIME for your entrance onto the stage where you deliver the most uplifting talk. Is THIS magic?

    Well — consider it could have gone and sometimes does the exact opposite way.

    People have come to think that magic is either the casting of spells usually intended to have POWER over someone, for good or bad. (make Joe love me and come back to me although he is now married). Or some very high level of magic, like levitating or something quite grand – blowing up mountains with ones mind. But, magic – like everything is a gradient scale.

    The great mahasiddhas of Tibet apparently were able to do very magical things. I however, haven’t met them 🙂 and can only read about them. However, their stories are always the same — UNDERNEATH these abilities is the wish to help other beings FIRST and FOREMOST. These magical qualities become a by-product of their devotion, their practice and their daily lives.

    Magic is simple. It’s moving up a little higher — trying to do that every day we wake up. Connecting to Heaven WHILE you remember you are living on Earth but bringing a glow of childlike appreciation and delight to everything you do.

    (when I speak here of Heaven – I am NOT talking about the Heaven of the
    bible, rather the Heaven which is innate in each of us — that “higher self” or basic goodness) —

    Joining Heaven and Earth is the way warriors (of peace) walk on this earth.
    (IMHO 🙂

    Marty’s blog is a great place to gather.


  4. Thank you for allowing my post Marty. I respect anyone who is not afraid of opposing points of view. BTW, you can tell Randi to give the money to any charity.

  5. Marty: While many will cry — aha — see, you don’t have OT abilities — I say

    Perfect answer.

    My teacher — Sakyong Mipham Rinpoche — was explaining how there is “magic” in the world. How we set an intention and IF that intention is free of SELF INTEREST, we are supported by “magic”.

    IF it isn’t — our intention falls short. The arrow doesn’t hit the mark and so it goes. The way of the world. Always falling short from paranormal or magic.

    Just blah after blah after blah 🙂


  6. Thanks for the post Marty. Personally my goal in training and processing has always been knowledge and spiritual enlightenment. I never go in expecting super powers. I believe that ultimately the success and resotration of scientology technology depends on the honest evaluation and promotion of what we can and can’t do with the technology.

  7. martyrathbun09

    WH, Thanks…that communicates in a way what I would like to but can’t communicate as well.

  8. Excellent post, Marty. I think you’re right in the way you moderate here. Jeff asked for it and it was very freeing and liberating to be able to communicate about that spiritual side of life – quite an uplifting thing. And yes, something so forbidden inside the church.
    I made a joke with Tony about being a pro registrar but in fact, because of the training I’ve had in Scientology, I can sell anything to anyone. That’s being at cause and an ability I gained strictly through Scientology which makes me more OT than I ever was before. I haven’t done OT levels so any abilities I’ve gained have come from my training and grades and word clearing and so on…all of which have made me OT in my own right.
    I see how talking about these abilities could set up a hidden standard but I think it only does so when somebody is looking for status, the way DM has evolved his “church” to be all about status and not about the work and effort and energy that goes into actually attaining the states of being. When money is such an issue then you get that frantic “just get me through whatever it takes to complete and get the status” mode.
    Whereas, when the goal is getting anything and everything you possibly can out of a level or grade with NO consideration of time or money, at least for me the gains have been so much more than what I even expected.
    I have no doubts about my abilities gained in the spiritual realm and any naysayers really don’t bother me one bit. I even left out all the phenomena I experience and stuck with the true, predictable abilities I have because of LRH’s tech.
    I know 100% that I would not have regained or accomplished these abilities without LRH tech.
    We are spiritual beings and yes, we should be able to tell the truth about just how much more spiritual we are and why! And give credit where credit is due!
    I’ve said it before and I really do see how the wins and gains to be had are “dulled-down” in DM’s church. Why? So you won’t be so disappointed when you don’t get near what LRH promised or aspired to deliver. A trick to get us to accept mediocre or plain old crap instead of the magic that real tech creates. And it does create magic! 🙂

  9. martyrathbun09

    Also WH, ever read The Secret? Wonderful exposition on the law of Affinity, called there the Law of Attraction I think. I couldn’t help thinking, however, how unworkable they made that “secret” by continually tying it to acquisition of money.

  10. martyrathbun09

    Thanks for sharing this wisdom.

  11. martyrathbun09

    I hear you Tara.

  12. martyrathbun09

    Yeah, I am experiencing the truth of your last sentence in real time.

  13. Marty,
    What you have expressed is very much what I have experienced as well. Although I am not as trained as I would like to be, I have gained much value from both Science of Survival and 88008 that explains the relationship between ARC, tone scale and ability.

    And WH, I have always liked the word “magic” to describe ability to create ones own reality, which is very high toned unlike DMs version of magic which is deception, slight of hand, black and very downtone.

  14. Married to an ex-Sea Org

    For OT powers, we are speaking of people who have designed their entire lives to going up the bridge to total freedom (by the way – I always thought that bridge’s went ‘over’, not ‘up’…doesnt going up a bridge leave you dangling?) who are at the highest of high levels of scientology.
    I truly respect you Marty, I really, really do, however, why do I have to read this book, and read that book, and there are all these caveats to explaining your or anyone else’s OT abilities?
    There are millions around the earth who have never taken one scientology course that have incredible communication, ESP, telepathy, etc.
    I say, that when doing the right thing in life, giving back, and staying in good communication with people, your life becomes easier and things are more likely to go your way. Whether you are studying scientology, judaism, or Joe Blow’s Religion…or not.
    I do not personally think or believe this has anything to do with relieving myself of body thetans in order to experience this.
    For some – go for ir, if it gets you there. But it is not the only way. And that is where I see a lot of strife, just like it any religion. Its like…Its our way to salvation, or else. That does not work for me.
    Again – this is just my personal opinion. Thanks.

  15. This strikes such a chord with me. Stealing an excerpt from an eloquent observation PlainOldThetan made on Jeff’s blog:

    And I have to remember that THE AUDITOR article No.18 (WHAT EVERY AUDITOR SHOULD KNOW), clearly says that “Standard Technology is not contained in any of the books of Dianetics and Scientology. Standard Technology is contained in Hubbard Communications Office Bulletins.” So having someone say that “the OT abilities I concluded I would have after reading 8-8008 didn’t occur” doesn’t upset me, either.

    A lot of people have Hidden Standards about this stuff.

    And those hidden standards speak to all the intentions behind what WH mentions. So, I reiterate the questions of purpose: What is the purpose of asking for demonstration? What is the purpose behind desiring to demonstrate these abilities? I don’t know about the first but frequently the second is some variation of shock and awe. I think dear leader has given us all the shock and awe we need for several lifetimes. I sure don’t need to add to it.

    BTW, Thoughtful did his eponymous discourse on a this topic as well.

    Bruce Pratt

  16. Randy forces you to go “out of the closet”, and have prior “showings” in the academic world. Basically you become a freak for the rest of your life.

  17. Great subject for discussion and thought. Proving abilities of a subjective nature is really no different than having to prove that you are happy: How do you know you are happy? Because I am- but that may be meaningless or unprovable to an outside observer.
    My thought on having experienced many gains to only have them reduced or eradicated is the use of stats in running cases- which can result in untold overruns and underruns. I would find it comical how many OT 7’s would make it through the lines at just before Thursday 2:00 PM. And then they fall on their heads within days( that part is not comical ). Why? Because their case was being run on stats: PC Completions, WDAHS, Value of Service Delivered. Instead of what is occurring to this individual personally?
    After reading your blog Marty and Jeff Hawkins, I would like to refer to Scientology as a door opener, if applied correctly with full attention paid to the individual’s perceptions, and not to making the organization look good. As to what is on the other side of the door would still rely on the individual and would be quite subjective, and that frankly is totally OK from my subjective viewpoint.
    Subjective is good for the soul.

  18. If Scientology really is about “improving conditions”, what better way to do that than by improving the situation over in Japan? Imagine the good PR that would result from a postulate that cooled the reactor core and stopped the radiation from leaking!

    That would be an awesome use of OT powers!

  19. I haven’t read Jeff’s postings yet, but I’m anxious to. However, it does bother me for him to be looking for Force-like abilities, if he is.

    For me, I back up to the most basic of phenomena: exteriorization. When you get blown out of your head, 3 or 300 feet, 3 seconds to all day, does that not satisfy you in the least that you are something BEYOND the body? And if you are this spirit, soul, thetan, whatever… are you not then exercising paranormal ability?

    The rest is speculation.
    Besides, like Heber was alway quick to relay: “What is true, is what is true for you.”

    ” So you haven’t experienced X phenom? I understand. Let’s now continue the process…” 😉

    There is a “Cool” factor, rappin’ about this, that, and the other OT thing that happened. But in the end, it’s just talk. Doing is so much better and more fun! Just get your ass up the bridge already! And if you don’t find what you’re looking for there, find Qual, or find another game! Like… in the Degaba system. I hear it’s strong with the Force. 🙂

  20. Expelled 4 Life

    I’m currently reading a wonderful book entitled “A Short History of Nearly Everything” by Bill Bryson. It’s an overview of the physical universe and how it came about. Big Bang Theory and all that. A fun and pretty easy read. Just finished a section on Sir Isaac Newton who according to this book had quite a few personal flaws. However Newton did of course codify the basic laws of physics that explains much of the physical universe. He codified it but didn’t create it.

    LRH was also flawed IMHO. For example I think he was asleep at the wheel organizational at the end. However he did codify basic laws of the “spiritual world” such as-isness, ARC and the Tone Scale. But he didn’t create these things. He did however create a predictable mechanism to help with as-iness called a session.

    So as far as OT stuff I say, “Who cares?” The session tech LRH gave us is brilliant and historical.

    For me LRH is the Sir Isaac Newton of the “spiritual world” – lice and all.

  21. You want a demonstration of OT ability, I’ll show you OT ability:

    No, I don’t mean the pianist Daniel Barenboim who merely has otherworldly and all-surpassing ability to create effects that make the heart soar. Why would anyone want to waste his time with that?!

    No, when I say OT ability I refer to the one and only Ludwig van B., who wrote this and many of his greatest works while stone deaf. I have heard that the deaf often hear a constant roar inside their heads. Now imagine Beethoven writing the 9th Symphony underneath a constant roar, while battling all his stomach problems, etc., etc., etc.

    To me that would be like Michelangelo carving David while blind.

    OT ability falls under the heading of “ability.”

    I recall LRH saying there are only 2 truly natural laws: 1) you exist and 2) you create.

    Now, if I can just drag this last thought out of my head, I can make my point and finish this post . . . there.

  22. Excellent example. While initially the Secret could be downloaded free on the internet, it became quite the sensation. And harmed by promising EARTH RICHES by this attraction rather than HEAVEN AND EARTH riches.

    And so fell the mighty. And very sadly one of their gurus — James Ray now charged with manslaughter (at least) in the deaths of 3 of his followers who paid — CATCH THIS — $10K to basically die.


  23. I wrote some stuff on Jeffs site for the first time. Its interesting how I ended up on his article by chance and now it’s here too.

    I believe a demand to “scientifically prove” these things in a lab I guess, with guys in white coats and clipboards is significantly lower on the tone scale than the zone where the abilities reside. It’s “MESTy” and perhaps this persons understanding and reality of what these abilities are is not correct enough to understand if they are proven or not. (I’m a dick, sorry)

    I’m not talking about Jeff individually, but for example, the “scientists” or sceptics or whoever is going to validate this.

    Two salesmen- how does Larry (3.5) prove to Bill (2.0) how he gets so many sales? Bill can’t see it. It’s magic. Or actually to Bill, it’s something that annoys him about Larry, but he doesn’t care what it is.

    Another thing I think was causing some confusion- I believe people are confusing LRH’s early work on the potentials of OT (PDC’s, etc) with the OT levels. I think a lot of the things he was describing are very high on the tone scale. As in, something that is possible, but if you are a human in there mixing it up and living life on earth as a human you probably are going to be at a lower level just because life is at that level. When you start to go above 4.0 you are headed out of the “human zone” (this is my opinion).
    I think thats where you get into exteriorization and all that stuff. So you might not be riding smooth and calm at 40.0 everyday if you know what I mean.
    But maybe sometimes you get up to 6.0 or even 20.0 or something and some cool shit happens. It’s outside of the MEST. It’s magical.
    Then theres some guy scowling at you, demanding you “prove it”?
    (Actually he want’s you to not prove it).
    …Ok man. Maybe tommorow. I’ll call you if I’m not busy (unlikely).

    Imagine being above 4.0. – 20.0 or whatever ( I think I can get a 6.0 with good reality) . Ok, are you going to be interested in presenting you body to some “serious” guys in white coats and clipboards so you can prove that you can see the other side of a card or something? Not me. I would be wanting to just continue what I’m doing, writing a song or creating something, whatever it is.

  24. Friend of Ron

    Thanks Marty.

    Just to give my 2 cents —

    If you do not believe in a spiritual or mental universe that is senior and can affect the material universe then of course you will never see any OT abilities nor OT deeds.

    However, most people believe there is such a universe, hence the many religious and the many paths they promote to a higher state.

    “Operating Thetan” are just two MEST words, a label coined by LRH to describe a type of being. Ultimately he had one definition for this term – OT = CAUSE. The more CAUSE you are the more OT you are. Anyone who has done some studies of LRH and Scn will agree that this is Ron’s definition, I am quite sure.

    So it is a matter of DEGREES OF CAUSE.

    If Gandhi sits and fasts and hungers and in doing so changes India and the world then he clearly is CAUSE and thus OT, even though he has not moved one grain of rice in front of him with his mind.

    If Martin Luther King marches and preaches, gets shot and in doing so causes the Civil Rights act to be passed and so changes America and world then he clearly is CAUSE and thus OT, even though he has not moved one hamburger in front of him with his mind.

    If one dude, Jesus Christ, marches around in the desert and talks about love and higher states of being and then is still talked about, fought over, prayed to and discussed 2000 years later, then he clearly is CAUSE and thus OT, even though he did not manage to get one nail out of his hand in the end.

    If LRH writes books and gives lectures and 100 years later still changes lives for the better all over the world in one way or another, and causes this very discussion on this blog today, then he clearly is CAUSE and thus OT, even though no one ever saw him move even a piece of paper with just his mind.

    The history of the world is full of evidence that there are OTs, including observing you and what you have and are creating with this blog and through your many other actions.

    EFFECTIVE CAUSE WELL DEMONSTRATED tells the tale. Not the matchsticks in front of one person, which he did or did not move with his mind.

    I’d rather have a world full of beings who have the abilities of those I described above, than a bunch of tricksters and magicians, as they will create peace on earth and a “clear” planet, where man can be free and to rise to higher states.

    Those who think one needs to stare at the MEST universe and expect it to move as “proof” that there are OT abilities are too dumb and too blind to ever see real OTs at work.

    Just my 2 cents.

  25. Advanced Soul

    Marty,Your post is has in it the phrase ” Which leads to the other “ability” I think is enhanced by Scientology auditing and training.” As I see it the words “I THINK” are crucial in that it makes the statement subjective , correct, proper and legal in my view.
    To say it as a claim as the COS has been doing since day one makes the claim a legal liability without any upfront disclaimer.
    Businesses would get creamed if they sold products or services without disclaimers yet the COS advertises then sells these services of the “I Think ” category and get away with it in the name of religion.
    Would there be opposition to paranormal experiences and abilities being pursued by individuals if the COS had not muddied up the subject with their avarice and disdain for the laws of the land?
    I think not as much opposition as has been fostered by the COS directly in their reign of terror on the subject by seeking to stifle all criticism.
    Do I think that everyone has their right to pursue any avenue they feel improves them with their own definition of improvement being at the forefront?
    My answer is an unequivocal yes

  26. Windhorse, Marty and readers,
    I absolutely feel there is a moving up in spiritual awareness. If we agree the defintion of a thetan is a spiritual being. If we find moving on the bridge makes us more aware and therefore able to operate as a spiritual being. Then, to that degree, we are more OT.

    My family, not Scientologists at all, years later once they felt safe to communicate their true feelings to me all stated that I had changed. I became someone they listened to. I had an inner calmness and clean intention to help. That, compared to before, was to some degree OT.

    To seek “proof” before acceptance isn’t valid science. As I have stated many times in discussions of valid science. Merely being unable to prove to someone else’s acceptance of something does not make it untrue. The fact is the earth was not flat until someone could prove it was round. A thing can be proven true, proven false or in the maybe – I don’t know for sure at this time. OT abilities, to many, fall into that last category.

    This isn’t new in the spiritual realm. A follower of another religion cannot prove to me his prayer works for him. I may not see it, touch it, or feel it, but it may have worked for him.

    To me – an OT ability is to remove more of the covering materials and let the shining light of goodness and life reach a little more into the space around us. I know for a fact what occurred in my personal universe when I read The Phoenix Lectures and I have never stopped reaching for more OT since.

  27. (Just a quick aside — take a moment out to think of others)(no need to comment, please)

    Speaking of OT abilities — perhaps it would be a kind idea to take a few seconds and intend/postulate/pray that the pro-government forces STOP destroying their country – Libya – and heed the cease-fire recently called by their own government in response to the UN Council Security Council’s permission to impose a “no-fly zone” over Libya.

    Obviously there was lots of effort — earth (UN Council, phone calls etc etc) — and now what is needed is some good ole thetan agreement to see this through.


  28. You’re both right! But the emotional scale doesn’t belong solely to Scientology.
    Read a book called The Master Key System written in 1912. It talks much about abilities and the 8th Dynamic! The beauty of being out of the implant is that the more I read and perceive the more I know that LRH was just a man who pulled truth from everywhere, put it into a workable thing and sold it. He’s not the first guy to discover what and who we really are by a LONG shot.
    And one more thing, I think we should see the upper levels, I have and I blew down when I saw it. It free’d me even more from this implant.

  29. Hi Marty,

    Can you clarify what you mean by this statement:

    “Can I demonstrate that to prove it? I can and do to those with a similar reality and sufficiently regular communication with me to experience it.”

    Is this saying that the abilities depend on a shared view of reality between all participants? As in they only work among Scientologists?

    This would seem to limit their usefulness in influencing the world in general, though maybe this is not the point.

    My apologies if I am mis-interpreting your statement.


  30. Thanks Marty, for pointing out the obvious that I had totally missed: Law of Attraction relates to Affinity. I viewed The Secret as a sort of methodology to making Positive Postulates, in a similar manner as Think and Grow Rich. But after your comment, realized that a postulate has ARC in it, and part of that ARC is affinity, and when you make the postulate and put it “out there” you have a likelihood of pulling in that which you put out — that which will match your wavelength or the wavelength of your postulate. Thanks, Marty, this opens up many new doors . . . . .

  31. To me joining the “prove it”-game is a wrong purpose. It is a method to install or dramatize or ask for agreement to a (hidden) standard. At the basis of that is an invalidation.
    When a person does not feel or experience himself as a spititual being I would advise to apply some technology that will undo the barriers toward that state. Then, to operate as a spiritual being comes hand in glove with disappearance of his agreement with invalidation.
    The guy who asks for such evidence – give him some “Give me that hand.”, “Thank you” until he has a personal realization which will end the discussion. (Or some other process or handling that applies to his situation.)

    To feel true empathy, ARC, to understand another person, that alone is a miracle, to find out some truth and have some condition disappear, to understand without words, to operate in a team, these are examples one has gotten used to. To me these ARE pure OT-abilities. Do not buy the invalidation.

  32. martyrathbun09

    I agree with your classifying those phenomena as miracles. I’ve witness a few in my day too.

  33. martyrathbun09

    Lady Minn, thanks. I think you’ve done an accurate summation/clarification on my comment.

  34. martyrathbun09

    Yes. It has nothing to do with whether one is a Scientologist or not. WH for example does not consider herself a Scientologist necessarily. Yet, she and I have shared some very interesting communication over quite long distances.

  35. Hey all – this is a great subject. Thanks for opening the discussion, Marty. I will add some thoughts over the weekend, but in the meantime:

    1. My wife and I saw the “Secret” movie just recently, and we found it very interesting and inspirational.
    2. Mark Twain wrote at least two essays on what he called “Mental Telegraphy,” in which he discussed, essentially, telepathy and connection between people. This is the days before the telephone, let alone email, so the instances were obvious. Crossing letters, sudden story inspirations that occurred simultaneously in two people across the ocean from each other.
    3. I listened to an Alan Watts lecture two days ago on “the Image of Man.” Is the world a created thing (either by God or by accident?), or are we all sparks and extensions of the Divine – indeed a manifestation of the Godhead – playing in God’s play? I like Watts, because he gets me thinking.
    4. Finally, some Psychologists will tell you that a belief in the paranormal or an expectation of the improbable is “Magical Thinking” and indicates mental derangement. I personally believe that obsessive agreement with the physical and a refusal to believe what you see or experience instead of what Scientists tell you ought to be there is mental derangement.

  36. martyrathbun09


  37. martyrathbun09


  38. martyrathbun09


  39. martyrathbun09

    and worth a hell of a lot more than 2 cents, imho…

  40. martyrathbun09

    Good points.

  41. martyrathbun09


  42. GetTheConcept

    My idea of what OT abilities are, is that they are the degree to which you are able to make an intention occur, the degree to which you are able to know things and the ability to bring order. Everyone has them to one degree or another. There have always been OT abilities before Scientology existed as such. The only things new about OT abilities since Scientology came along, in my opinion, are 1) the name “OT abilities”, and 2) the claim that Scientology could help people increase the degree of their OT abilities.

    There are many examples of OT abilities demonstrated by people. Ghandi, Martin Luther King, etc, ad infinitum, demonstrated them. Everyone has them to whatever degree.

    Michael Jordan on the basketball court was an example. You could tell he knew what was happening everywhere on the court. He knew where to be, what to do, who to pass to, when to shoot, how to make that ball go into the basket despite all obstacles. You could feel his intention for his team to win a championship. His teammates, many of which would have been average players on other teams, almost always stepped up when they needed to. Even the year after he retired the first time, you could still feel the intention his teammates had to win a championship, which was instilled in them by him to a large degree. I could feel that just as a fan. Though nobody expected them to make the playoffs that year, they missed the finals, arguably just by one disputed referee call.

    Whenever someone learns a skill or becomes more competent through familiarity with an area or an activity, he is to that degree more OT, whether he’s done OT levels or not.

    A major premise of Scientology auditing is that when you don’t have a bunch of mental masses in your road making you think or act in a way that prohibits you from knowing something or accomplishing an intention, it allows you to just use your “OT abilities”, which everyone already has, to know what you need to know or to accomplish your intention.

    Just because someone can’t raise a lamp off a table without physical means does not prove that he does not have OT abilities.

    That’s my 2 cents worth.

  43. martyrathbun09


  44. martyrathbun09

    A wonderful book by Bryson. I highly recommend it too. He also demonstrates how theoretical all branches of science remain to this day, no matter how literally they have convinced us to take them. Also, agree on the entire point you make.

  45. My take on OT abilities:
    I arrived this lifetime a very uptone, OT being. Incredible native abilities. Now that I am outside the Co$, I am able to see them all even better and am able to validate myself for who I am – which is very good for me.

    AND……. I am also OT V. I have gained immeasurably the past 25 years. Just take TR’s for instance. I was a staff member at CC Dallas for 2-1/2 years. I was the D/PCS and Lisa McPherson was the PCS. We did Upper Indoc TR’s every night for 30 minutes. Every night – 7 days a week. I could make a gorilla lay down his firearms in the middle of the street.

    Formerly an Algebra teacher, Bennetta Slaughter of AMC Publishing approached me for a Sales position. She called me a wild bronco and I was in those days. I remember one weekend she gave me a list of ‘possible topics’ to write OW’s and to not come back to work on Monday without having them done. Naturally I put that lovely cycle off until Sunday night, but because I wanted to get through my barriers on sales and I did the program. Right there, sitting in my bed with a legal pad and pen in hand, I confronted a major service facsimile and I have “never” been the same. That action changed me for the better.

    Amazing case gain. And when I arrived at work on Monday she asks me to clay demo Responsibility. This was a perfect action for this thetan at the time.

    Though I departed that company some 4 years later and have nothing ‘special’ to say about its leadership, I did become a real sales person there. At the end of that journey, when I chose to leave soon after the Freewind’s announced the OT Debug, I was privy to a Wise arbitration, which was another nightmare that there aren’t enough margarita’s to get me talk about that.

    I was owed over $6,500 in earned commissions that were paid – banked money in the coffers of AMC and were withheld based on puny justifications because I chose to leave the company. At the time, I was the #2 sales rep, behind Lisa McPherson. I was making some very serious money. My sweet husband kept telling me, “Let it go baby…. You became a fucking brilliant sales person & that was a small price to pay. She needs that money far more than we do.”

    In 2002, I completed R6EW – OT V and even with all the suppression that was going on within the Co$, I am all the better for it. I am incredibly stable, my perceptions are stable –overall positive gains across the boards.

    I am truly an OT. I know it and I will allow nothing to invalidate that anymore for me. I make things happen every day and twice on Sunday. No doubts in my universe that the future is even brighter now that I am not factoring in all the suppression that previously clouded my wins and abilities. I am so looking forward to even greater advances in my abilities in the independent field.

    I love you all for listening to my epistle. These type forums give us each a beautiful opportunity to have case gain. Many thanks to Marty for providing this opportunity and all you lovely Indies for being there and communicating. It is the pure definition of “life”, isn’t it?


  46. martyrathbun09

    Yeah, clean exteriorization on TRs the hard way, in a mission of all places, demonstrated to me the spirit. The most valuable lesson I ever learned. And everything beyond that has just been gravy really.

  47. Great topic Marty,

    I have found that what I consider OT abilities are most effective if my purpose in exerting a specific ability is for the betterment of others and the playing of a better game.

    Windhorse said it perfectly: “However, their stories are always the same — UNDERNEATH these abilities is the wish to help other beings FIRST and FOREMOST.”

    Whether it be disenturbulating someone by simply being there or non-verbally alerting another of an oncoming car hidden to them, these acts/abilities frequently occur when my intention is directed for the greater good of others.

    Do they need to know what I did? No. Do I feel the need to tell them or advertise the fact? No. It is simply a gift for another – to simply remove some of the barriers which can make living on this mudball seem difficult at times.

    The benefit for me? Nothing other than simply having another look at the future with promise, and making the game more enjoyable for all. It is these things I enjoy immensely.

  48. martyrathbun09

    Great post lookingin.

  49. Independent Scientologist

    Here’s my two cents.

    No proof is possible because nobody could EVER demonstrate an OT ability that couldn’t be ascribed to some other cause – magic, trickery, collusion, coincidence, mass delusion, optical illusion, etc. etc. etc.

    Have I ever experenced OT phenonena? Damn straight. Jaw-dropping stuff. And OBSERVABLE.

    – Ron Matlock

  50. martyrathbun09


  51. martyrathbun09

    Me too.

  52. redneck janette from detriot

    I have expereinced “abilities” way before I even knew what scn was. Once I had a dream that my good friend from high school was giving birth to twins, I hadn’t talked to her in about 10 years, so I called her and low and behold she was pregnant with twins. I also had several out of body expereinces as a child, but at the time didn’t know what had occured, as an adult looking back, I realized what I was doing. These abilities may not seem like much to some people, but to me they were frickin cool. I think we all have these abilities to a greater or lesser degree and we are still looking to tune into them for obvious reasons.
    The fact that we can speak freely about our beliefs or non-beliefs of LRH’s tech and others is a real relief to me after all these years of having to keep my viewpoint on the subject to myself.

  53. martyrathbun09

    I’m with you Kay.

  54. martyrathbun09

    Reminds me of a great PAB where LRH talks of Scientology not teaching, but reminding us what we already know.

  55. Great post Marty.

    So. Let’s, then, define what OT is. LRH said that OT is “a thetan exterior who can have, but doesn’t have to to have a body in order to control or operate thought, life, matter, energy, space, time.” SHSBC 82

    When I do a Danger Formula and my universe suddenly changes for the better, or when I do an eval on an area and it suddenly turns around or when you give someone a correct indication and their universe instantly settles down, when you find the right PTS item and the illness suddenly disappears are all OT Abilities to me. In other words, use the tech and watch things change for the better is OT because that is cause. One can argue that these are ‘random “psychic” coincidence’ but I’ve seen too many instances when I or another knew the phone was going to ring and it did, or when somone was thinking about me and I picked it up, only to be confirmed a short time later. I could go on for a long time.

    No doubt we have a long ways to go and a lot of stuff to be fixed before we can be truly a stable OT.

    As an aside – I knew a fellow who worked with Ron and for the life of me I can’t remember his name now. He told me that he asked Ron what OT powers a thetan had, if any, before he was OT. LRH laughed and said; “The difference between and OT and someone on his Drug R/D is that both can make it rain, only the OT knows that he did it.”

    ML Tom

  56. martyrathbun09

    Thanks Tom.

  57. I think everyone is OT at all times. We all chose the reality that we act out here on this stage, Planet Earth. There are any number of roles available to play, to which we add our own touch — the details. We can be an Einstein, a Mozart, a baseball player, a housewife, a person with Down’s Syndrome, etc. They are all roles we can choose to play. Then we give the role we choose our own individual twist and it becomes our own identity. Next lifetime, we will probably choose something else, and will be a new identity. I won’t be the me I am this lifetime ever again. That identity is done when I disgard this body. I’m still me, but the identity changes, just like trading in a sedan for a sports car, or the other way around.

    LRH says we play games so as not to be bored. The game here in the “MEST” universe gives us the whole tone scale to work with. Some may have no other goal than to live out a life of Apathy. And may continue to come back until they have done “Apathy” to their full satisfaction. Of course, we can play games within the game, like “becoming” OT. That’s a fun game with an interesting twist. Here we are, OT, then we come into this game agreeing to not-know certain things, according to the rules of this game. Now we are here and we go about trying to find out who we really are. Who we really are, we are. I sometimes look at “handicapped” people and think, now there is someone with amazing abilities. The thetan who took on that body really wanted a challenge.
    As far as abilities such as ESP, levitation, etc., these abilities are always available, some use them more than others as they are or become part of their own reality. If the rules of this game included these abilities at this time, we would all have them. We agreed to not use ESP for obvious reasons. The games we play here in this universe, at least here on this planet, would be quite different if we all used ESP. How would we get away with overts and withholds! ARC breaks would be difficult to maintain. The game would change. Which is what I think LRH was hoping to achieve, once enough of us began to acknowledge who we really are, we could agree on new realities and change the game.

  58. One of the my favorite OT or spiritual moments happened about 1 1/2 years ago. I was in a parking lot fixin to (Texan for about to) leave, when I spotted a woman and man trying to get a car started. At first I viewed them through my physical eyes and saw two grubby people who, honestly, my first inclination was to ignore. Then I really looked. The man by this time had gone off to get something and just the woman was there. I saw that woman through my spiritual eyes. I saw her, a beautiful spirit laden with difficulties of the physical world. I could see she had come upon hard times and was living out of this car that they couldn’t get started. She wasn’t asking for it but, she needed some help. Without thinking, I drove over, rolled down my window and handed her some money. In doing so I said to her, will you please take this and not say anything but, just allow me to give this to you. She reached out and took it. As she did, our eyes met, both of us tearing up. It was like time stopped and we were the only people in the world for that moment. We both knew exactly what the other was thinking. I knew this moment would stay with both of us forever and always effect us positively. I drove away feeling I had just moved up a little higher. Laura

  59. Marty,

    My wins exactly. TRs the hard way at a mission in 1974. I had more experiences with exteriorization and telepathic communication and control while on the HQS course than any other subsequent training or auditing. Not that I didn’t gain from those either.

    There really isn’t anything to prove, is there?


  60. Kathy Braceland

    Marty, you read my mind…. I was just going to post this:

    “Any information is valuable to the degree that you can use it. In other words, any information is valuable to the degree that you can make it yours.

    “Scientology, of all the sciences, does not teach you, it only reminds you, for the information was yours in the first place. It is not only the science of life, but it is an account of what you were doing before you forgot what you were doing.”

    L. Ron Hubbard
    From PAB 86.

  61. GetTheConcept

    If you remember what the name of that PAB is, please let me know.

  62. GetTheConcept

    Sorry, this is totally off the subject but I couldn’t resist pointing up the incorrectly included datum of a gorilla with firearms, and in the street, at that. I think you meant “guerrilla”. LOL

  63. I can know what I know without the necessity of agreement from others.

    I can bring joy and happiness to another being.
    I can tell the difference between good and evil.
    I can operate in an unselfish manner to do the right thing without regret.
    I can give and expect nothing in return.
    I can love inspite of invitations to hate.
    I can afford myself the introspection to know when I’m ‘wrong’ and correct myself.
    I can state the simplicity of above OT abilities without the necessity to prove anything to anyone or explain why they ARE infact OT abilities.
    I can withold any other abilities I may (or may not) have in a self-determined decision not to invite judgement, negation or invalidation.
    I can percieve the love and admiration of fellow OTs, reciprocate if fully, and revel in the happiness it brings.

  64. My answer to Randi: why didn’t SRI get $1 million?

    Randi claims the Swann and Geller used stage magic, etc. But Randi has never been able to replicate those results in the exact same controlled conditions that the scientists used. So I’m afraid that Randi is relying on anecdote and ad hominem to make his case.

    The science, AnonOrange, is in favor of the OTs, not Randi. Even Carl Sagan, just before his passing in 1995, ultimately agreed that telekinesis, telepathy and past lives “deserve serious study” because of the already existing “experimental support” (from “Demon Haunted World”, 1995, pg 302).

    Sadly, Randi and his pals are living in the past. They should take a class in the scientific method. Then they’d discover that science has already moved beyond their dogma.

  65. My hat’s off for you, Mr. Rathbun, for the analysis of the success of this blog. This is a pro-LRH blog. That’s why I and I am sure, many others keep coming back. I stopped reading Jeff’s blog a long, long time ago. I doubt the anti-LRH blogs will attract much attention the day DM is gone.

  66. Me too Tara.

  67. Dreams are not real people say but yet people say you have to persue them. Entrepeneurs dream of setting up shop or starting a bussiness. The Ability to make it happen is admired by many. Now to stray into some more philosophical grounds: Time again for one of my favorit clips.

  68. I once heard a story (don’t know if it’s true but it sounds like something LRH would do).
    The story goes that he came upon a group of students staring at a fork. When he asked what they were doing, they explained that they were trying to move the fork. LRH then smiled, reached over and moved the fork with his hand.
    Lesson to be learned? 🙂

  69. M – You certainly are.

  70. Windhorse, yes this trial is here in Yavapai county where I am at. The Prescott Daily Courier carries the story of James Ray on a daily basis. He ,I understand was a good motivational speaker. He got into areas where he became the ” guru” for many. These people walked into something they knew nothing about…a desert with no water, no food and no rest.

    After living in the desert at 5,000 feet for the past 7 years myself, this is not an environment to be taken lightly.

  71. I’m not sure whether I’d pay a million to watch you run around Times Square in your speedos or demand to be paid a million to watch it. LOL

  72. Marty, I think the key to OT and to all Scientology processes is ‘Attention’ and ‘Intention’. The more one uses both ‘attention’ and ‘intention’ the more effortless it becomes. I personally have no doubt that I am a spiritual being. Really until you have been exterior with full perception you may have your doubts. Telepathy and postulates get easier when you know who you are and both ‘attention’ and ‘intention’ become as natural as seeing, hearing and feeling. Scientology processing increases both ‘attention’ and ‘intention’ just like weight lifting increases muscle mass. The result is increased awareness and yes some pretty amazing OT phenomenon. Love

  73. Wow – what a discussion going on. I have been off for a few weeks and this is the post that I come back to, very cool indeed!

    I always strive to apply one principal in life – ARC (affinity, reality & communication). If we all do this, we are actually operating in the OT band. I have said for many years if the orgs, ie staff would just remember this one thing we would all be better off and so would the application of LRH tech.

    This principle is not a new one either, as Windhorse discusses similar concepts in Buddhism it has worked for 1000’s of years. Self-interest isn’t part of the equation if you are really applying ARC and it certainly won’t get you very close to OT.

  74. Two quick stories I gotta share:

    1) Lost my car keys at the Austin org. They never turned up, either. I was in total despair over the whole thing. As a last resort, and I felt like an idiot for even asking, I turned to one of our day staff currently (then) on OT VII and asked if there was “anything” she could do to help me find my keys? She looked sad and said,”I’m sorry… but it just doesn’t work like that.” That was the only time I’ve ever asked an OT for “demo” of any kind. LOL

    2) NOW! You wanna see some O.T. ability? Should have been there when we were working on the R.T.C. office space in the HGB! Apx. 100 students and staff shuffled 8’x4′ sheetrock sheets (heavy as hell!) inbetween the fire escape stairwell railings (apx. 6″ of width) up all 12+ stories! HUNDREDS OF SHEETS OF SHEETROCK! Anyone else would have taken weeks to do it, or would have hired a crane to put it all on the roof and carry it down. Oh no! Not the FEBC’s! Did it in just a few hours!
    Good times!

    Yes, David Miscavage. Next time you’re in that particular office? Just remember… I was there. That pretty stainless steel elevator door? I’m the guy who painted the ACID on it to remove years of paint and make it stainless steel again. Helped put up your walls! Helped with your lighting! How about painting the entire 3rd and 4th floor of the ITO because “COB is on his way here right now!!!” Less than TWO freaking hours! Done!

    Any ONE of those FEBC students are 10X the O.T. you think you are, DM buddy! Take that to the bank!!!

  75. AO,
    Could you also start a pledge campaign on what it would take to buy you off from having to see you in Speedos? Just in case.

  76. Yes, this is incredibly beautiful and yes, the composer was a genius.

    However, the sceptic would look at all this and say, “Oh, very nice, he can move his fingers very fast. But a true OT would make the piano play without touching it. In fact, a TRUE OT would make us perceive the music without the piano being there!”

    This could be a matter of “no win” because every time you do something OT, someone says, “No, that’s not good enough, it has to be (this much higher).”

    I am saying that a sceptic is a sceptic is a sceptic.

  77. A big part of Jeff’s question isn’t whether “OT abilities” exist but whether they are gained / restored through the practices of Scientology. To quote, “we are not talking about phenomena you have experienced, we are talking about abilities you gained.”

    Obviously Gandhi and Dr. King were not practitioners of Scientology.

    Additionally, one can believe that such abilities exist without being convinced that L. Ron Hubbard knew how to bring them about.

  78. plainoldthetan

    I’ve already posted over on Jeff’s about OT abilities, but since the discussion has continued here, I will pipe in over here with a couple of additional points.

    1) I don’t think of OT abilities being a “glass half empty”/”glass half full” proposition. To me, the glass is ALWAYS FULL. Admittedly, there’s some air and some water, but the glass is always full. This is a *viewpoint*. Jeff and I could be in the same room and see a a person perform some action the person says is OT, and I might say it was OT and Jeff might say it’s a lie. If you’ve ever seen the magician Randi vs. Uri Gellar conflict, this is what I am talking about.

    2) But the glass-is-always-full view applies to OT abilities, too. I subscribe to the idea that all my OTness is there, waiting to be unleashed. So at any given time, my OT abilities glass is always full. It’s just whether or not, that day, there’s 3 ounces of water visible, or 6 ounces of water visible.

    3) “OT abilities” have been given a bad name by some people. David Miscavige, in particular. My understanding is that once he was walking by another Sea Org member and suddenly said “I can tell when someone has evil purposes and counter-intention” and punched the person in the stomach. I don’t know if DM has that power, but I can tell you that a person who had to punch someone in the stomach after using the power certainly wasn’t OT.

    Also, I have had a “Flag completion” OT VII walk around the Mission where I was auditing, evaluating for all the public and staff, telling them what they were thinking…telling me what I was thinking. My assertion is that I WASN’T thinking that. But what I started thinking was that the “OT VII” was using her powers for evil, not for good, because I ended up doing repairs on the public and staff after she left, to get rid of the bullsh she left behind.

    4) One thing that many overlook is the contribution of TRAINING to the OT Phenomena. I don’t know if it’s that people who have their “glass 70% water, 30% air” that train, but I have definitely seen that auditors more readily manifest OT phenomena than people who haven’t trained. (The OT VII I referred to above HADN’T trained, for sure.) What I’ve noticed is that I can get an idea in a session and as the session progresses, the pc will have a win. Sometimes, the win is related to the idea I got, sometimes is isn’t. As I audited, more and more, it became more frequent that the idea I got had something to do with the pc’s win. I consider therefore that DELIVERY of auditing exercised and let me figure out how to use my OT abilities. Something I didn’t get from my receipt of auditing alone. See REASONS TO GET TRAINED (HOW YOU CAN INCREASE THE SIZE AND INCOME OF YOUR ORG, LRH ED 258-1 INT).

  79. Agree, great book, funny too

  80. Yvonne Schick

    Will put the Bryson book on my list.

    Totally off subject: his book “A Walk in the Woods” is one of the most entertaining I’ve ever read. I would laugh so hard my eyes were so full of tears that I would have to put it down.

  81. Very good point, Marty.

    I was walking through a casino one night – it was late, I’d been working, was tired and had a very early morning flight – and found a chip in my pocket. I couldn’t be bothered walking across the floor to exchange it so I stopped at a roulette table and threw it on a number. Couldn’t have cared less. Number comes up @ 35-1. Still not interested in continuing to gamble. My phone rings and it’s a colleague who needs something and asks me to wait by the elevators. While I’m waiting, I have two quarters in my pocket and throw them in a slot machine (I never play slots and have no idea why I did then). The thing goes off like it’s Times Square on New Years Eve. I win several hundred dollars but when the guy’s paying me, he says, “Why didn’t you play 3 quarters?” I told him I only had two. Three would’ve got me the jackpot, about 15 grand or so. I really didn’t care, which is the point. And it’s why casinos make so much money.

  82. Sugar Plum Fairey

    I concur with sweet Janette.

    LRH says in the Tech Dictionary, “Reality is what the majority agrees it is.” “That which is real is real simply because it is agreed upon, and for no other reason.”

    Having said that, I refer you to Ingo Swann(an OT) and his remote viewing abilities. Or Uri Geller and his proven abilities. Criss Angel and Cyril Takayama to name a couple of amazing natural OTs who demonstrate their amazing abilities because……drum roll…..THEY CAN AND DO.

    And in the seventies there was Michael Silverman, a reg from AOLA who demonstrated card tricks to reg prospects. To one pair of prospects they were given the package price by Michael, wrote a check and then said to Michael, “If you can make this check stick to the wall behind you, we’ll sign it. Michael took the check offered , palmed it and slammed it against the wall where it stuck and stayed! Michael had them sign it on the wall at which point Michael snapped his fingers and the check slipped off the wall back into his palm. A perfect demonstration of intention.

    Michael had also done a trick that both Criss and Cyril have done. To have a member from the audience choose a card from a fanned deck of cards, slip it back into the deck, shuffle it a few times and then throw the deck at a second floor window that had wire in the pane and have the card that the person chose facing in stuck to the outside of the window.

    I know these are all parlor tricks but they are clearly demonstrations of OT abilities.

    Now if you want REAL OT abilities, it is the Auditor who can, through his/her application of standard LRH, help relieve those of enormous quantities of BPC.

  83. I think scientists ought to be Possibilians not Atheists:


  84. Tom, that’s the real secret – that you are AWARE of creating the effect. We create effects all the time but think some other force is responsible. Hence, we arrive at God’s Will.

    I’ve experienced much OT phenomena but a lot of it’s in the eye of the beholder. For instance, no one is later in arriving at airports than me, but I never miss flights. When I’m in serious danger of missing my plane, which is often, I mock up a picture of myself sitting in the plane’s seat and, lo and behold, I somehow make it. I have colleagues who think I’m very lucky. But I always think that you make your own luck.

  85. Tony DePhillips

    Hi Marty,

    What got me intersted in Scientology was the idea of OT.
    LRH says that there is a scale of OT.
    There is not doubt in my mind that I have risen on that scale from the training and processing in Scientology.
    Here are some examples of OT phenomena that I have experienced:
    1. Once I was having an argument with a Scientology friend. I was sitting at a table with a chandelier type lighting fixture with five globes of light above the table I was sitting at. My friend was pissed at me and all of a sudden he looked at me with a lot of intention and one of the glass globes of the chandlier “hopped” off the fixture and landed on my head. Ouch. Coincident ?, I think not.
    2. I was driving around Seattle working and my wife called me on my cell phone and asked me if I knew where a certain obscure street was located. I told her that I didn’t know where it was. Just at that moment I looked up and I was looking at the exact street sign of the street she was looking for. Another coincidence?
    3. I have telepathic communication fairly regularly. As you pointed out it really works best with others that are in comm with the theta universe. People that are downtone and “solid” make poor recievers and transmitters. Others that are light and open I find it fairly easy to be in theta comm with them.
    One only has to look at the way nature is set up on the planet to know that there is an intelligent hand at work at creating the game we are all in.
    I believe that there is a Reactive mind and I can “see” it at work on a daily basis. I can read intentions from and seperate from verbal communications.
    I enjoy the game of increasing on the OT scale. It is a game that I think LRH created better than anyone else that I know of. It is a game I will always continue to play.
    Now that a lot of us have escaped probably one of the most viscous theta traps ever to be created, I think a lot of us can say that our OT abilities have increased and will continue to.
    I haven’t read Thoughtfuls dissertation on the subject yet, but I did read the post that he based it on and thought that was incredible.
    People can posess a certain horsepower and that to me doesn’t necessarily make them OT. It is what they are doing with that horsepower that counts. People that can put out a postulate and make it stick in the direction of survival are truly the ones demonstrating OT power. I like to stay connected up with people like that.
    In the reference The Supreme Test, LRH talks about how someone sane can go from piont A to point B despite opposition. A crazy or abberated person will try to go from point A towards point B and when hit with opposition will then go to point C or D or F. We started a journey toward OT and I for one will not let a little evil dwarf push me away from going toward point B. Is full OT acheivable? I don’t know, but I like the idea and I like the results from persuing that goal.
    Keep up the good work Marty.

  86. martyrathbun09

    The dude can think, investigate and write.

  87. martyrathbun09

    Thank you for that.

  88. martyrathbun09


  89. martyrathbun09

    But how do you know that? just kidding.

  90. martyrathbun09

    I see it that way too, Sarge.

  91. Michael Henderson

    OT abilities are not always demonstratable, but I have done demos for people from time to time. None recently. The first time was in 1973 after ARC Straightwire with Allen Kapuler at South Tahoe. I was VERY keyed out. I walked into Harveys Wagon Wheel casino where I was meeting other students for our usual late night hot fudge sunday, to wind down from another great night on the HQS course. I put a dollar on the 3 onthe crap table, and one on any craps, won, then did it again. I did not “let it ride”. It made me enough to pay for everyones desert. It was light and fun.
    The second was in an L-10 session with Linda Sydejko in 1985. I exteriorized, and saw the physical universe for the first time this life not with the bodies’ eyes. It looked very flimsy. I could see through walls, and see people walking in the hall outside. I could see inside Lindas’ body, and her skeleton. Then I asked her if I could pick something out of her mind. She said ok. I asked her about a name that i picked out. She said it is her sisters name. When we went outside on the way to exams, I was looking at the FH pool garden in spectrums of light you do not see with body eyes. It was a very different. The third was OT VIII completion in December 1988. After session, I continued to expand my space, and went out on the sun deck of the Freewinds, and got bigger than the ship, then as big as the port. I was as sure as you can get that no matter what happens to this body, I will be ok. I don’t need to prove any of this to anybody. The sessions I got were the sessions I got. I like your approach, Marty.

  92. martyrathbun09

    Thanks. But I read his blog, and learn quite a bit by doing so.

  93. martyrathbun09


  94. martyrathbun09

    Kathy just provided it in the next comment – ya see, you can get what you postulate.

  95. Lynne,
    Now that is some seeeeriously funny sh$#.

  96. martyrathbun09

    Hey Ted! Took a pretty fine, close to static, wavelength to tune into you, didn’t it? Hope all is well on the Far Southern front.

  97. martyrathbun09

    Sublime grace.

  98. martyrathbun09

    I like your’s too.

  99. martyrathbun09

    Yeah, quality, not quantity.

  100. martyrathbun09

    Huck, I think LRH once defined luck as theta. Someone with tech vols can check the index.

  101. I know any Scientologist worth his weight in Theta believes in STATISTICS.

    Why? Because real ABILITIES can be measured by REAL stats.

    Yogi’s can drop their pulse rates more than normal people and it can be measured statistically.

    Tibetan meditation masters have the highest Gamma waves in their brains of any other known group of human beings and these “Happiness waves” can be measured statistically.

    Yogi’s have greater flexibility than other humans and stats can be created for these abilities.

    Karate masters can break more boards with their hands than the general population and these stats could be compiled.

    Karate masters have a higher bone density than others and that ability can be measured.

    Navy Seals train in cold and have a higher ability to handle cold than normal humans and that ability can be measured.

    Will power can be measured statistically in regards to substance abuse.


    And honestly, I’m looking for anything that is above the curve of humans not trained in Scientology. It doesn’t need to be supernatural.

    Even something vague like “Ability to make things go right.” Can be measured against a general population.

    But leaving it as “too cool to be testable” is an old and tired game…

  102. Source of leaks from Int (who now prefers to be referred to as ‘ Deep Fax’) provides us with confidential journal notes from deep within COB’s private chambers. This one is rather long, so it will be done in installments.

    Private Inner Chamber Office of COB

    Not To Be Published
    COB Eyes Only


    Part One

    When it comes to getting cycles of action completed, target attainment, making quotas, implementing vital programs, the only thing stopping any of of us is COUNTER-INTENTION by some Meat Unit, otherwise known as ‘people’.

    Whenever I investigate why one of my orders has been halted, interfered with,  stopped, left undone, or simply ignored, I always always always always always discover it’s been counter-intended, usually silently so as to cover up the suppressive act.

    I’ve tried to handle this by using the technology of auditing so as to discover the hidden evil intention in the person responsible for the suppressive counter-intention and in some cases that does take care of the problem; however, as you have seen for yourselves by the number of incomplete and undone program targets, finding and removing the evil intention does NOT solve the problem.

    So, what am I supposed to do, give up and let the entire universe self-destruct? That wouldn’t be very responsible on my part, now would it?

    After removing the evil intentions from the individuals responsible for the vast amount of failed and stalled projects and then finding out that it did NOT handle the situation, I thought about it long and hard for at least three solid minutes. Then, I had a cognition – OT is CAUSE! I just needed to be willing to be Cause.

    Thetans supposedly cannot be harmed. I tried to impinge on the thetans responsible for the chaos, but nothing got through. I replaced the people, same thing happened. I realized that I could not actually FIND a thetan, could not even SEE a thetan, much less call one on the carpet for their destructive activity. I really needed to be OT about this.

    What COULD I see? I could see a meat body representing the thetan. Aha! 

    Suddenly, it all became crystal clear. I decided to test my theory. I went up to the meat body that represented the thetan that was messing things up and had not turned around from all the handling they had received even though they had completed the RPF and received thusands of hous of Sec Checks and ethics handlings and had been through the lower conditions eleven times and put on beans and rice and then only beans and then only rice and I hauled off and smashed that meat unit in it’s head. 

    Suddenly, the target got done, the project was completed and everyone took a win. The loss was turned I to a win. I thought, “CAUSE”. Correct estimation of effort. I tricked the thetan into thinking they could harmed. I had snuck up on an otherwise unsuspecting mischievous thetan who thought THEY were Cause and could get away with having some fun with their games and OUT-CAUSED them. OT here I come! Ha!

     I tested it out again. The very next time I encountered a stalled product, I found the meat unit responsible and plunged my fist hard into his stomach. Bang! The product got produced. OMFG! This OT stuff is incredible!

    Again I tried it, just to be absolutely sure that I was right. SMASH! Product!

    I now knew I had discovered magic in my fists that could save the world. This was going to be a walk in the park.

    Smash…Product!   Bash…Product!  Kapow…Product! Again and again and again and again. Smash, smash, smash…Product, Product, Product!

    I may not have LRH-like intention or ARC but now who cares. I had Fists of Intention and I was not going to waste this brief breath in eternity because it didn’t seem ‘nice’ or ‘social’ or ‘acceptable’. I was going for broke on this OT stuff.

    I was about to change the landscape of Scientology across the globe. For this, I needed biceps. Big strong biceps. And strong jaw muscles that I could flex so others would know I had the magic to make them produce. I really wished that it would not be necessary to smash people, but there was only one of me and I could not do everything myself, no matter how hard I tried. So be it. I would become the smasher, I would smash the way to Total Freedom.

    I started smashing, hitting, punching, slapping and I even discovered that choking and headlocks were almost as effective and so I incorporated those into my OT arsenal as well.

    I exported this successful OT action to others. I led by example. Suddenly, OTHERS were starting to achieve similar results to mine. Wow, I knew we had this thing licked now. I got every piece of strength-building equipment I could find, had the gym rebuilt, worked on my strength every  moment I could. Ha, everyone spoke about how much sleep I was getting, but what I was really doing was exercising in my sleep to build my smashing strength up even higher.

    I watched old gangster movies to learn how to really slap people well, every martial arts movie, all the old westerns to learn how to really punch, I chewed rubber to get my jaw muscles to stand out, practiced in the mirror slapping and punching myself so I’d know just how much force to apply, I watched Three Stooges movies and learned head-bopping and advanced slapping techniques, wrestling shows to find the best head-lock moves, Japanese congressional fist-fights and clips of prison riots to learn how to implement my newfound OT abilities on a broader scale.

    Look at what I have achieved with this method; the donation stats across the boards have sky-rocketed, programs completed are out the roof, and I’ve been able to finally realize LRH’s dream of a world-wide empire of brand new state of the art upstat Org buildings. 

    Because of a cognition I had about meat. Pound some meat, just like Rocky did with his training for the big fight. Well, I was training for a big fight too, and I became very willing to punch a whole lot of meat if it meant saving every man, woman and child on the planet from doom and extinction, no matter how much I would be criticized.

    (End of Part One – Stay tuned for Part Two where DM puts his OT management capability to the ultimate acid test, on someone you’d least expect…)

  103. Dear Marty,

    I found this particular post rather interesting. For one thing, as a child in Scn, my main objective was to reach the highest level of OT because I was explained, back then — by rather uninformed Scn’ists — that, at those levels, one gained superhuman abilities.

    As I later got trained, and actually read the materials of LRH, from the 1950’s all the way to the SHSBC, the context in which that earlier statement ought to have been understood became quite evident .

    But before I belabor the obvious, I would like to mention that, since I have left the S.O., I have been informing myself of other schools of though on the subject of paranormal and “magical” abilities. There is an axiom in one of the branches of occult learning that speaks of the “World-view” (read: viewpoint), and I quote: “The world we perceive is actually the interface (mixture) of the ‘noumenal’ world (the Tao, the objective reality that is unknowable), and ourselves (the subjective).

    “Changing your world-view does not change the eternal, real world, but it does change the perceived world. This is important because it is the world we touch, see, and act upon.

    “Changing your world-view makes real changes in the world which is real to us. ”

    Translated into Scientologese, it would go something like this: “The world we perceive is the interface between the MEST universe and our own universe, which is subjective.

    Changing your own universe does not really change the MEST universe (obviously because, to do so, it would require massive agreement), but it does change your viewpoint of your own universe. (ever had a major cog?). This is important because it is the world we touch, see and act upon.

    Changing your viewpoint makes real changes in the world (the MEST Universe), which is real to us. (in other words, as we change our agreement of how the MEST universe should be, based on our individual viewpoint, we see the physical world change.)”

    And therein lies the key to OT abilities. All those St Thomases out there who skeptically “await for you to do something paranormal” will never be able to see you do anything paranormal because they do not align themselves to the “appropriate wavelength”.

    It isn’t just a matter of believing in it. It, in itself, is an ability to be gained. By way of example, I have an incredible empathy whereby I can read people’s emotions and, when they are rather base, I can feel their mass. Or, I can go into a room and read off the emotions that have been experienced in that particular place, heavy or finer, as they may have been. I gained this ability by auditing and getting audited. I read this energy almost like a mental image picture. Usually, I empathize so much with someone I am close to that, if they are enturbulated (and they are either near or far away), I feel it and act to disenturbulate him or her, as I can. This IS an OT ability.

    Still, it is subjective — like you mentioned in your post: when one is enturbulated, oneself, it is harder to be cause over it. To my misfortune, my empathy works whether I am low toned or high toned. Usually because I get hit by this wave of low emotions and not always do I understand it comes from someone else. I am becoming wiser nowadays and I have been exercising myself to master it. Long haul… but, I have to!!

    I also want to get off a sort of w/h from you — not much of one; but since you mentioned that you’d rather not have people talk about Advance Materials on your blog, you should know that I have read what’s on the Internet regarding OT III, NOTs and a bit about OT VIII. I am still quite sane and healthy — or at least not any crazier than I was before I read this material!!! I am not telling you this because I regret having done this in any way. I just feel that you should know this — it’s a personal thing. I totally respect the fact that you would like to avoid talking about those materials because, in my opinion, people have been sort of “implanted” to believe they will die. It is a rather shocking untruth, when you think of it. Especially when knowledge of this materials allows you to understand a lot of other subjects that,up to now, had been considered esoteric or “too occult”. LRH was truly a genius — words cannot even begin to describe the thing.

    All right, my rambling is at an end (you can all draw a breath of relief!).
    I just wanted to add my 2 cents on the matter, since you invited us to do so — anyways!

    Love Flavio

  104. I got to thinking about my comment here and realized that no matter what level of OT ability you have, the sceptic will say, “That’s normal. We want to see something impressive.” So the real missing question is, “What’s normal?” Let’s get an agreement on that first.

    Since the basic abilities of a thetan are to postulate, to perceive, to create particles and space and move those particles in space, etc., let’s see what it would be like not to have those abilities, to define “normal” or Not OT.

    Let’s see, I think we might start with a rock? So now we start asking, “What can you do that a rock can’t do?” and “How do we make a scale of these things people can do?” and then, “What percentage of people can do this, and this, and this?” Then we pick out a level where we say, “Well, an awful lot of people can do up to this level so let’s call this normal. Above that, we’re starting to look at OT abilities whether or not they are the top of the scale.”

    When I sort things out this way, many things stand out as OT abilities for me. Here are a few examples:
    –The day I was sitting in a room in my home and suddenly realized I was examining in detail the beautiful magnolias in my neighbor’s yard–but there was a solid wall between my body and any view into that yard.
    –The night I dreamed my son was blowing the Sea Org–when he had only just made the decision to do so and did not accomplish his plan for two more months.
    –The night I dreamed a map showing my son’s escape path to a city that no one would imagine he’d go to–and we found him there.

    Are any of the above provable? Certainly not! So my conclusion is:

  105. martyrathbun09

    that tickles.

  106. Hi Everyone, I wrote an article the other day based on Splog’s great comment to Marty’s post the day before. I rewrote the thing today because it generated a very angry response from one “non believer” and reposted it under the name “Flying Teapots and Parlor Tricks” on Scientology-cult. I’d post it here — it is a fascinating article — but I’m afraid too lengthly to plop in the middle of things here. Here’s the link — perhaps people would like to read it there and discuss here? Love, Steve


  107. martyrathbun09

    Thanks a lot Flavio. I think I get what you are giving here.

  108. I grew up in Scientology. I remember earlier on in the 70s and early 80s OTs were “theta” and there was a majical uplifting quality about them that made them excellent company and there was a “force” one could feel in their prescence that inspired me to do things in the Sea Org that I would not have been able to do – this changed in the 90s I noticed that people on the upper levels of OT got crazier and they had lost their mojo. We know several individuals now who are on OT VII and OT VIIIs and they are an inspiration to NOT go OT, every time they get out of session they act tyranical.

  109. aotc,
    In the 2ndACC LRH is positing that the difference between observational/analytical and reactive may be as tiny as a billionth of a second. One is in Present Time, the other lags a miniscule amount behind. Cause, it is also posited may be just a billionth ahead.

    Science with the advent of quantum theory way back in the early part of the last century on this planet, opened up what could be called ‘quantum extrapolation’. The realization that at the most fundamental levels of physicality, thought up to then to be ‘solid’, there was an absence of something, and a whole lotta nothing. Potentiality, possibility, and not so-called ‘determinism’ (cause in the past).

    OT, or cause, exists in the future. In order to really grasp that theoretically one needs to understand ‘time’. Practice with it, drilling with it, that’s where it becomes an ‘OT Power’. Theoretically, one could be cause over time for the myriad of beings who agree on PT. Practically…yes, well, it ain’t over till the fat lady sings.

    Who is the fat lady then becomes the operative question. The answer to it, being the question itself.

  110. Tone 40.

  111. Thanks Bruce, For info, I just rewrote the article today and reposted it on Scientology-cult.com as “Flying Teapots and Parlor Tricks.” The article sparked a nearly instant firefight with a certain non believer in the state of OT. So I added more data and calmed down the snorting and wild bats that were flying out of it so as not to kick off World War III. We’ve got enough trouble brewing in Japan already — God help those people.



  112. AGREED!!! It seems many spirit based books and movies focus on money. I’d enjoy more money, but what I really want is truth!

    I’ve asked this question on other blogs and have not gotten a response I understand. Can someone with a better understanding of Scientology tell me where the tech comes from? I know LRH is source, but where and how did he get it? This question has been bugging me and when I went to the DC Org, I was asked to exit the building after asking about the tech. Thanks! Mike

  113. … but maybe she did mean “gorilla”! Now handling him and his firearms WOULD really be OT!! :o)

  114. Jung says: Man is born not a blank slate (tabula rasa)


  115. martyrathbun09

    I can spin a basketball on my finger indefinitely. Does that count?

  116. Joe Pendleton

    I have read Jeff’s blog on this and it is an interesting subject that gets to the heart of what many folks are looking for from Scientology training and processing.

    An also interesting and allied subject that Marty brings up is objectivism vs. subjectivism re: case gain (for a number of reasons, I’m on the subjective side). For another time. Let me put in my two cents on this subject – what I wanted and expect from the state of OT.

    Throughout all my early days in Scientology, I was never much interested in, and only glanced at “Advance” magazine in the 70s and 80s (sorry, Jeff). Just had no interest in either the spectacular OT stories or the explorations of other religions (I am interested in the latter subject now). I never listened to any of the Philadelphia lectures until about 8 years ago.

    I got into Scientology in 1970 for two primary reasons, after finding out what it was about. One, I wanted to be able to cause things in my life (I couldn’t call up a girl and ask her for a date, for example, and wanted to be able to postulate doing something then actually DO it). Two, I had some very “down” moods, and wanted to get rid of the reactivity that caused them. I was 19 and going to college. I quickly joined staff and then of course, I had a whole set of third dynamic reasons for being in Scientology as well.

    Later, I was VERY much attracted to the ideas in 8-8008 of creating my own universe. I’ve never understood that concept fully, but it is the most attractive and interesting concept of LRH’s I’ve ever read. I’m still exploring that in my own way, and still making headway on it (creating my own universe, while at the same time, fully respecting the survival goals in OTHER beings’ universes as they create theirs).

    So, to me – that’s essentially how I evaluate “OTness” – the ability to postulate and to cause (to create – make things happens).

    BUT…if there is a real “hidden standard” (though I wouldn’t really characterize it as such) of what “proves” OTness to me, it is this: Confidence in “sense of self.”

    Do y’all know what I mean by that? It is the sense that one IS a being and CAN confront and that one IS a cause point and CAN cause. To me, to the extent that one can demonstrate these certainties of self, one is an OT. These are the qualities I PERSONALLY ADMIRE AND ASPIRE TO. (As well as the ability to create theta in an enturburbulated environment). The stories/abilities relayed in the old issues of Advance mean nothing to me in comparison with these.

    The above theta comments lead me to have to say (in a more negative vein) that my REAL disappointment in the whole “Miscavige story” is that when he jumped over the table and slammed Jeff Hawkins to the floor (and many, many similars) that an OT didn’t have that OT sense of self and CONFRONT to immediately stand up and announce to Miscavige and the whole group that this behavior was completely unnacceptable and absolutely contrary to the teachings of L. Ron Hubbard – starting with the data in Science of Survival re: acceptable tone. Similar with all the entheta musters on the base, the gang bang sec checks, reg cycles, etc. OTness to me is that one very thoroughly and in control and with much intention does not go into agreement with those things, and does not allow them to just continue. To me, that is demonstrating being an OT. (Karen #1 offered an explanation of how being brutalized can drive a being down into a lower tone level and at effect with all this. And what she said is very real to me. I’m just saying that if we’re talking about “OT abilities”, to me an OT can handle this type of stuff – though I realize we’re not talking in absolutes here).

    No make wrong intented here. I have failed myself on numerous occasions to demonstrate confront and integrity. I’m just putting in my two cents here on the subject of OT. Of course a very important thing to keep in mind is that the beings who have created and regularly contribute to this blog are NOT in agreement with what I mentioned above and no matter what we all did in the past, are NOW creating a NEW reality that DOES align with the values that LRH originally outlined in the philosophy of Scientology. And thus, those values of confront and cause are being demonstrated by you folks who are now reading this.

  117. AnonOrange ~~

    There are 2 things going on here:::::::

    1) The “Church” has made outrageous and dishonest claims of OT results. Wild magical results that do not occur cause a blowback and intense disappointment.

    The “Church” not tone it down. Results from the Ls as published in their glossy magazines were plain LIES and HYPE. Results of OT VIII were further lies and hype.

    2) On the other side of the coin, what the pc considers MIRACLES can and does occur with correctly applied Red on White.

    Some examples ~~ I have personally CSed pcs who, with not a whole lot of auditing

    a) Blew (vanished) their migraine headache of 30 years.
    b) Handled a “can’t sleep” condition that had haunted them for a lifetime
    c) Erased as deeply embedded hatred to Gays which restored a major relationship with offspring.

    on and on and on. You get the idea.

    Results like this are very personal. The pc treasures a win like the above FAR FAR more than “OT Ability” remote viewing or dancing through the air viewing earth from above.

  118. P.s. Not all of them, but it ties in with the earlier posts on this website. I am eager to go up the bridge now free of the dark Miscavige influence that is visibly having a reverse effect as an EP

  119. Sara Finning

    ha ha. ‘The Three Stooges’ as hatting material!

  120. In my view the entire MEST universe is an OT phenomenon. The fact that we are here, can perceive and communicate, is a miracle so sublime I now understand why some will credit its creation to God, as we have no way to adequately express its beauty and flow. Even in the mundane tasks of everyday life there is richness and complexity that once you step back and take another view, is overwhelming in its beauty. It is interesting that people will look for MEST ‘tricks’ to prove that they are OT. You’re it, there is nothing to prove, the fact that you can perceive this now just points to how OT you are.

    Tommy Price

  121. Too many Gamma rays will turn you into The Hulk.

  122. “act tyranical.”
    Lol Miscavige is producing more of Miscaviges

  123. Of course! If Silvia Kusada, Mike Rinder, Steve Hall, and any other person who has done OT III can do it too.

    Karate masters break boards (but the experience is bigger than that).
    Meditation Masters have awesome gamma waves (but the experience is bigger than that)
    Navy Seals can take cold something awesome (but the experience is bigger than that).

    And OTs can … spin basketballs?

  124. I think people who have gotten benefits from Scientology know these things to be true because they have experienced it. You could go about collecting stats or whatever means of “proving” it, but I don’t get why you are putting that on us. I have very little interest in starting on a program to prove Scientology. I have nothing to gain from it. Who is going to prove it? How?
    I guess I’m not entirely understanding what is being asked here.
    Many activities are not “proven” by your standards. But people participating in them know hey work because they have gotten the benefits from it.

    If you go to a Sales Seminar or buy a fingernail clippers, or go water-sking do you ask if it’s scientifically proven by double blind study or whatever method you would use? The proof is in the people who do it. Scientology is a learn in – apply it activity. Then you know if it works for you. It’s not a drug or a chemical or metal nano-alloy fabrication. Is there some comparable activity that has meet some scientific standard for proof that you can give so I might understand what you are asking for exactly?

  125. martyrathbun09


  126. Is this the one?:
    “… It is also observable that a high-theta-volume individual can conquer and handle more MEST than a low-theta-volume individual or an entheta individual. The psychotic, for instance, will ruin any MEST he contacts, whereas the highly reasonable man will enhance the MEST he contacts.
    Here, also, we apparently have some small clue as to what “luck” is: MEST moves in automatically under good theta; MEST moves out from under entheta”
    L. Ron Hubbard.

  127. martyrathbun09

    Brilliant Steve. I’m adding your link to my post.

  128. Right, so these three Scientologists go to a restaurant. One is OT III, one is OT V and one is a Class O auditor.

    The OT III stares at the waiter’s back with some serious intention, and when asked what he’s doing he says that he’s trying to get some service. The OT V points out that the postulate must be made lightly, like so … still no response.

    At this point the auditor has had enough. He puts his fingers between his lips and lets out a shrill whistle and yells, “Hey, waiter!”

  129. Those are physical things. Maybe I got callouses on my fingers from turning pages in the courseroom. Does that count?

    On that note, I will say I am a hell of a lot more literate. Maybe my writing is lazy, but I can read and study far beyond where I was at before, and I was pretty good before. Because of this, I often understand what is going on around me where others don’t.
    I didn’t keep any stats though.

  130. “God was feeling sardonic the day He created the Universe. So it’s rather up to at least one man every few centuries to pop up and come just as close to making him swallow his laughter as possible.”

    -L Ron Hubbard

  131. Nah, good PR for the Church is needed nor wanted at this time. Better learn some lessons about future energy supply for this planet.

  132. Simply stated: I am in Heaven, listening to all those voices. Many thanks, all of you! For those who still doubt that scientology is about deep spirituality, and LRH a true son of the greatest adventurers, you got, I hope so, some answers 🙂

  133. Lynne,
    Wonderful! Those wanting proof are trying to validate the world of thought and intention with a change in MEST. Either they won’t accept it or they just deny it. Short story (details to be left out) – I was in the E/R surgical when the patient decided to drop it. Monitors and alarms going off when he flat-lined. Spotted the being right up in a corner of the room – pure intention told him that wasn’t ok – surgery wasn’t done. All hell broke loose when full seizures bounced body on the table. Monitor on heart bouncing up and down. People trying to hold down the body. Surgeons and nurses looked at me really weird. Patient survived. Nurse walks up to me and starts to ask a question as to what happened – paused – shook her head and went away.

    About 12 years later in another far away city man walks up to me and calls me by name. Says you don’t remember me do you? Told me who he was and thanked me for keeping him alive. I have absolute certainty what I did. Yes, Lynne, we don’t need no stinking proofs. I had the ability to act as an OT and it was the most natural thing to do. Afterall, we are merely a spirit awareness maintaining a body to have a ticket into the game.

  134. “It is a lucky nation which blows into a theta goal …” HTLTAE:118 was the only reference I could find on that pair of words.

  135. There you have it folks!
    OTDT has demonstrated that he can use his OT telepathic abilities to tap into the mind of David Miscavige and tell us exactly what he’s thinking.
    Now, about those flying teapots…

  136. Just a little aside – not intended to derail but the above from Karen #1 is one of the reasons I so adore her.

    She is REAL.

    And she was REAL when she was the super-duper-highly-respected -uber-L’s-CS at Flag so many years ago.

    Her office was in one of the back cabanas which faced S. Osceola. Her cat (perhaps she had more than one) would lounge happily on the stair way and my dog (back then we were able to bring our dog) would scare and chase her cat. Karen was very sweet and asked … please don’t let him do that.

    She had birds. Loved them. And would go to some persons home that had dozens and dozens. At least that’s what I remember.

    AND she married Heber and he adored her and was so proud that she got him to lose weight and drink water WITH the juice of a fresh lemon every morning.

    Whew —



  137. theystolemychurch


    I just love you post! My son, since the time he was very young would dream of things to come. He would often tell me his dreams. Some were good things and others were really awful… Many times what he dreamed came true or came to pass… coincidence? Maybe. OT maybe… I am not of the make up of “what would have to happen in order for me (or anyone) to be OT”… that is some PTS type isn’t it?

    I have OT miracles everyday in my life. I just happen to be “here enough” to see them. Maybe that is what Anon Orange really needs.. to arrive in PT and maybe he could really observe for himself and quit saying “show me”.

  138. I found The Secret to be seriously flawed.

    It focused on glowing things right in the direction of money.

    Then, several of the gurus came out a year or so later with books/videos for sale on “What The Secret didn’t tell you.” Which was that you actually have to WORK in the real universe to get things done, and not just sit around doing vizualization.

    My question is, what about the importance of one’s purpose? Isn’t that superior to simply acquiring money? Won’t your postulates work and even get you paid if you are on purpose and producing valuables to exchange?

    I think the magic lies in being on a healthy, constructive purpose which serves others and aids their survival in some way, shape or form.

    I should write a book about purpose rather than money. It just might make me rich! 🙂

  139. GetTheConcept

    I had the same thought but you got to your computer before I could get back to mine. 🙂

  140. Thoughtful: Completely brilliant and clear article.

    Thank you. I’m forever grateful to well educated/trained scientologists who explain what I had learned years ago but in a new way so that I can connect the dots.

    I’ve always had a difficult time connect the dots regardless of the subject and having Marty mention, for example the law of affinity vis a vis the law of attraction — LIGHT bulbs go off.

    Same with this article by Thoughtful.


  141. Sam, That was beautiful. Thank you. Love

  142. AWESOME! So your Final Answer is “leadership.” That’s what the article talks about. It doesn’t name it directly though.

    I happen to know a bit about leadership metrics. And YES, leadership effectiveness can be measured.

    So are you are saying that OTs will have the Superpower of leadership and that is what being “at cause over matter, energy, space and time” means?

  143. Oh. Check the forward or introduction to Science of Survival and listen to the Phoenix Lectures. That should give you a good grounding.


  144. As Kermit the Frog says,

    “It’s not easy being green.”

  145. Just some thoughts on OT, operating thetan…

    …a thetan is a thought being…

    …a being is being, existing…
    …as opposed to not-being, or not existing.

    To operate is basically to control…

    …so a operating thought being is controlling; starting, changing and stopping, thoughts.

    Everything else is created by a being with thoughts.

    Know your thoughts.
    Control your thoughts.
    And so be responsible for your thoughts.

    Operating thought being.

  146. Ana youa maka mea crya!
    Tears of joy, but youa maka mea crya. Sweet & bootiful.


  147. Tara,

    You’ve sold me.


  148. I am so blown away by the mere existence of this discussion and its kin on Scientology-Cult and LeavingScientology. We’d all be burned at the stake in the CoM.

    But here we are doing what we’re doing. OT?

    Bruce Pratt

  149. The tech comes from a being occupying a source point and describing what he is looking at.

  150. martyrathbun09


  151. martyrathbun09

    It don’t no realer than that.

  152. martyrathbun09

    Yeah, they ain’t been the Casablanca when Sam is around. Gotta wear a freakin crash helmut to avoid the tea pots.

  153. Thanks for this. I checked out the book, read a few pages offered on Amazon, found he was talking about my neck of the woods. I’ve even been to the Five Aces Diner and know exactly the types he’s speaking of.

    And promptly bought it. Should get it in a few days.

    I’ve thought of walking parts of the trail myself and every one of his scary things about what can happen on the trail — were bad.

    But not as bad as my realization: OMG — I’d be alone OUTSIDE in the dark. I don’t like the dark at home, inside.

    Outside. Never going to happen.

    Looking forward to reading this.


  154. martyrathbun09

    Mosey did the same thing for me.

  155. I suppose science just needs to catch up because for all that is “scientifically proven” we’re just meat bodies – and there is no way to prove that any of us is anything more than that.

  156. martyrathbun09

    Yes, thank you Sam!

  157. Marty,
    Mosey gets flowers and ice cream whenever she wants!

  158. martyrathbun09

    How’d you know?

  159. OT!

  160. Mike,

    My conclusion from reading this works – LRH developed the tech the same way almost every other discoverer found things – by looking. That’s not a glib answer – one really has to go out and look at things to figure out how they work.

    If truth be told, the subject was probably ripe for discovery anyway. Behind it lies 1000s of years of writing of thinking men (attributed as such in the beginning of older Science of Survival editions), and all the various crucial bits of technology that humanity has invented were in place – notably electronics, printing and communications.

    LRH read all those thinkers extensively. Then he went out and looked at life and the people living it. No doubt he fell on his head many times too, but would then have just gotten up and carried on looking some more (he did persist after all).

    And the final acid test was always “Did it work? Did the person improve? and did the person acknowledge the improvement? and were they happy with it?”

    There’s no evidence I know of where Ron describes in detail what he did other than the above (paraphrased). So what it really comes down to is you should read what the man said and it will either be credible to you or not – so be it. According to posters here who knew LRH personally, he was the kind of man who cared little for reputation and self-importance, he wanted people to test his work for themselves. It would be completely in character for him to not bother with extensive write-ups of how and when he did everything. He’d be more likely to keep a summary in a diary and toss out little anecdotes in his taped lectures.

    Did this help any?

  161. There are only two fundamental schools of thought about life. One school holds that the physical universe generated life, and the other that life generated the physical universe. The first school of thought holds that the physical world generated life and that life invented the false idea that there is something called the spiritual. The second school of thought is generally called religion and source in that school of thought is called god or spirit.

    The reality of the first school is that the physical world is a given and that the idea that one creates ones own world is delusion. In the second school, the reality of the world is an illusion gone solid and is able to be shaped or created by the spirit.

    It is Determinism versus Free Will. It is Mechanism versus Spirituality. Theta as source versus Mest as source.

    This is the context in which this debate takes place, it is a debate that is as old as old can be.

    The philosophy of Scientology is an exploration of how it can be that life can generate MEST, how can you get something from nothing. Hubbards answer to that are in the axioms and his explanation of how can this be is laid out very well in The Phoenix Lectures. As a philosophy, it is very profound.

    The Tech of Scientology is a therapy derived from that philosophy. It lays out a gradient pathway in the direction of regaining your grasp on what you have always been capable of, of fully owning what you have always known.

  162. Like you, Tara, I haven’t done any OT levels and yet have had gains from training that have allowed abilities to develop could only be described as paranormal in lieu of knowing they were OT abilities.

    I said GAINS from training and I meant that. Reading the books on the levels was often akin to getting a session with huge cognitions and mass blowing off. The great thing was when that occurred I also then had the technical datum for the reason the charge was there, and thereafter that type of charge could just not stick.

    I also got gains from and while auditing others. There’s no stopping a cognition when it occurs, so I was many times thankful for the long hours of TR drilling I had done that allowed me to maintain my auditor’s presence while something was blowing from my universe at the same time the pc was blowing something.

    For me, LRH’s writings acted like a nearly complete set of building blocks that allowed me to make sense of the physical universe and its relation to theta. I say nearly complete as cognitions would also bring up other bits of data from other studies that often changed a two dimensional idea into a three dimensional one, plus cog, mass blown, and new operating basis. The upshot was that instead of having a bunch of different shaped blocks, the added blocks from other studies allowed me to make the “cube.”

    So where did that leave me on the grade chart? I don’t know and I don’t majorly care. My case has been very stable, and I knew better – even 20+ years ago – than to let it get hacked up by the “standard program” of the day – which we now have ample, multiple-report evidence of having happened when one tries to go up the grade chart at an Advanced Org.

    As far as where it left me with abilities: what would you call it if a loved-one was coughing from an allergy for an extended period but stopped within a few seconds of putting a postulate of “normal” into the area of that body’s lungs? Coincidence? The first time, maybe, but when done multiple times – as in every time attempted? What would you call it if a pet in another room responded to a thought-command? – every time (and many, many times) attempted. Could that be replicated on other animals? – yes; on humans? Perhaps, but I’ve not practiced that other than delivering auditing commands.

    The list could go on to include other things and also to echo many of the things others have said, but the point is, Scientology makes changes in one’s universe that allow abilities or phenomena to develop that are just not in the average human repetoire.

    If there was a reason to not talk about this stuff it shouldn’t be that it will prompt hidden standards to exist in a pc’s universe. Seriously! Ron wrote the most astounding things about OT phenomena resulting from processes run, so if anyone was going to end up with hidden standards, they sure as hell would just from reading the basic books. So if somebody says they can throw a lightning bolt, how different is that than Ron saying (paraphrasing) that power can be generated by a flow between two points in space?

    The worst thing we should experience is some inval or eval of what we put forth. Granted, I don’t like list errors and wouldn’t wish them on anyone (not even him), but that kind of shite should come only from the trolls, and it is easy enough to ignore that source.

    My vote is for the OT stories of the 70’s, not the 90’s and beyond.

  163. One thing I noticed on Jeff’s was the two-valued logic used by so many anti’s. It’s all wrong or it’s all right. Just the concept of gradient scales is a significant advance in logic.

    Which brings me to perception. Where a person is on the tone scale determines much of what he/she is able to perceive. The more one is trapped in MEST perception, the more one requires MEST for validation. Effort requires effort for validation. Emotion requires emotion. It’s what’s real to that person.

    But, theta is basically a static. The “higher” one goes, the less wavelength is involved in perception. When you reach a point of near static, your perceptions are not dependent on matter, energy, space and time.

    If you are fixated in believing that more force equals more reality, then the absence of force and the absence of gross wavelengths creates an “unreality.”
    But, ironically, operating at a level closer to “no wavelength” brings about an enhanced reality. Knowing is easier.

    Knowing is a very fine wavelength. It’s very subtle.

    For those dependent on mental image pictures for knowing, dependent on a brain for knowing, dependent on a body for sensation and experience, the world of knowing seems absolutely delusional. But, in reality, depending on MEST is delusional because one’s perception as Prime Cause is blocked.

    Prime cause is not force, but is capable of generating matter, energy, space and time. At the level of intention, this causation is very light, creating a sense of “effortlessness.” At the level of prime cause, creations operate at the level envisioned in Quantum Theory, blending with existing matter, energy, space and time to bring about changed conditions.

    Sometimes the change is dramatic and recognizable by someone dependent on the body’s perception. Sometimes it is so subtle that only another who operates at the level of near static can recognize the change.

    In any case, the agreements of this universe are agreements of solidity and mass and energy. Operating through the physical universe has the caveat of agreement. What are you agreeing to? And if you aren’t alert, your postulates begin to sink back into the agreements of solidity, mass and force rather than operating at that subtle level of prime cause.

    Which, again, is why one feels a sense of effortlessness in getting things done at an OT level, and feels such a drudgery operating through MEST agreements. MEST agreements are drudgery for theta. It’s the difference between operating at near static and total mass. And what is mass if not resistance and inertia?

    There isn’t a way to really make OT real to someone fixed in MEST perceptions. “OT” gets translated into some MEST-based power generator rather than a being who knows and who knows how to postulate, consider and opine. A being who can intend and perceive the route of that intention.

    At the level of OT cause and effect become synonymous because the effect is the cause and the cause is the effect. Which again is ironic, because at lower levels one cannot differentiate cause and effect so the whole things goes full circle.

    I wouldn’t have reached these insights without having studied Scientology. At least I don’t think I would have. So, for me, Scientology has value. Scientology isn’t the cause of my thinking or observations, merely a communication of possibility.

    I don’t see the “bridge” in linear or spacial terms, but rather transitional where one remains where one is (near static) and transitions to greater awareness. To me, this sense of enhanced reality is more valuable than the entire MEST universe. Without the capacity to experience and have realities, what good is having MEST in the first place? And what good is knocking off someone’s hat?


  164. Just a side note on Randi – he’s not out too prove or disprove anything by scientific method.

    He’s a trained illusionist and stage magician, and he’s out to expose charlatans and snake-oil salesmen. The Randi Foundation and serious researchers leave each other well enough alone, it’s just wrong target.

  165. You should read Steve’s article, Flying Teapots and Parlor Tricks. He’s much less cryptic than me. I’m still working the area.

  166. Bruce, You are a great asset to our group. Really, so is everyone on this blog, even on both sides.

  167. Windhorse,

    I like your reference to magic, so I’ll offer you 2 examples of real magic.

    Having kids and watching them grow up. One day this tiny creature pops out all wet and dirty and yelling his/her lungs out. A little bit of food and water and hugs every day and after 20 years you have an adult . How the blazes does that work? Put a tiny little bit in and 1000s of times comes comes back! And it happens all over the place many times a day by (mostly) completely untrained individuals. Wow! that’s magic.

    Auditing, or more exactly, a comm cycle done correctly without additives. Ask the person a question, listen to the answer, acknowledge the answer (I’m quoting a Class VIII here), and the person is liable to experience profound changes in their viewpoint. Again, a little bit of input produces a huge effect. That’s magic.

    What most people call “magic” is simply wonderful stuff outside their immediate reality. Just because other wonderful stuff is within their immediate reality doesn’t lessen the wonderfulness in the slightest.

    Almost every time you quote a wise person, I have the same thought: the person is saying that the world is a wonderful place, so go out and experience it!

  168. I was born abroad and during my first days after birth I was pretty confused, because my mom was speaking in a language unknown to me. This is the first thing I remember about this lifetime. At age 5, I run to tell my mom the house was full of strangers. She became quite scared. As much as I pointed at them, she could not see them. Later she told the rest of the family that there were “scary vibes” in the house. After this I learned not to talk about my perceptions. When I was 15 I dared tell my mother some passages of some of my past lives. She told me to go to church for confession. After this I decided not to communicate about these type of things.

    I moved to the US once I was an adult and found Scientology. Did the comm course, then the purif. One day while in in the sauna I exteriorized. It was an incredible experience, I could see everything but in a different way; it was all very bright, there were no walls, the perception of the environment was complete but very different. I could see the people and recognize them but not as bodies; they looked like a source of light. Yet I knew who each one was.

    Since those days, these kind of abilities have expanded and become very stable. I choose not to talk about them, I consider the subject personal and private. I do not feel any need to impress anyone nor demonstrate anything. I use my abilities the same way I use any other tool I may have for living a happy life and to help others.

    One thing I can tell you, for sure, is that Ron was not lying when he described the potential of a thetan.

  169. OTDT — Unfortunately, this is not far from capturing the insane think of Dear Leader. Uncannily perceptive. He truly believes he is a super-being and every insane act he takes he has a twisted justification for based on some piece of LRH that “proves: his superiority. You Sir are quite a brilliant satirist — and just like my favorite Samuel Clemens (Mark Twain) — your cutting humor is so impinging because it reveals truth through absurdity. The most impinging are when the truth and the absurd are virtually the same thing. Just as here.

  170. + 1 🙂

  171. Joe Howard

    “No, when I say OT ability I refer to the one and only Ludwig van B., who wrote this and many of his greatest works while stone deaf. ”

    I love him too. But think you’re looking at this is an incorrect way.

    He may well have had OT abilities and for sure great creative
    abilities. One of the greatest artists on human record.

    However what you describe is the result of study. Decades of study.
    He knew what written on a score translated to what sound.

    Lets say he had his music basics in. 🙂

    If we talk of OT abilities it is not the mechanics you refer to.

    They are merely tools he used to expand and enhance our reality.
    It is for those interested quite obvious to spot music before Beethoven and after Beethoven. And his continuing influence.

    He promoted theta magnificently…..

  172. Or let’s flip it round just for fun.

    Send a kid to school for 12 years so he graduates for real. Get solid agreement from the guys in white coats that the kid is more educated, more knowledgeable and more capable than when he started. They will, of course, not deny this because “everybody knows that’s how it works”.

    Now ask them to prove it.

    Not so different from what the tech does. The only real difference is the reality level.

  173. Bruce,
    A very truth. Here we have the ability to have a viewpoint, discuss it, change it and observe the viewpoint of others. We are free beings. We are free to have our own thoughts and change these if we wish. Free to know and state what we find to be true. No dogma. No enforced realities. This is the world of live ARC and an ever changing sea of understandings. Here on this blog is what really living life is. Interchange with other like or non like minded beings and each able to walk away with our personal integrity and knowingness intact.

    Yes – what we are doing is OT. Only those who accept that fate can be burned at the stake inside the CoM. Outside those “walls” is the universe, the future and the present. I thank each and every one here for this experience and helping create a public stage for enlightenment.

  174. And THAT was profound. Thank you Trey. 🙂

  175. Amen to that on behalf of all of us…

  176. Why, thank you, Mike.

  177. ‘Preciate the ack, hard workin’ operatin’ texan.

    It dawns on me based on yours and Marty’s work especially but added to Jeff’s and others, that this thing called a multiple viewpoint system is part and parcel of the way out if for not other reason than it’s almost a mechanical implementation of tolerance, affinitiy, responsibility.

    There’re actually some Q’s at work here.

    So padnah’, to you and your posse’ — we be salutin’ and toastin’ y’all’s “effective cause, well demonstrated.”


  178. What a beautiful story. I had something like that happen to me, but in reverse — like Marty. In 2001 or so, at the Int base, I was despairing as to what to do. Life seemed to be in a shambles. One Sunday morning, I was near the entrance of the Wal-Mart in Hemet and for some reason a hysterical man singled me out of the crowd, demanding I run outside and help a girl who had fallen unconscious. Why me? He didn’t ask anyone else to help. I started an emergency assist and after only a few alternate commands of “Feel the ground. Feel your body.” moving her hand to execute each command, she came too and opened her very blue eyes. Searchingly, she looked right into my soul and asked me who I was. And in that moment time stopped.

    I said, “I’m nobody.” She would have none of that “No! WHO are you?” she implored. “I’m no one.” “No! WHO are you?” “Just a guy named Steve.” “No! WHO ARE YOU?” “Just a stranger.” But somehow I knew all my answers were wrong. Then a nurse arrived and I drifted off.

    A few hours later, alone in my office in the turret of the Cine Castle, I was thinking about the incident and her haunting question. Finally, the answer hit me. “Oh God, I’m an auditor.” I cried like a baby. After 15 years in hell I’d forgotten who I was and my mission in life. I’d forgotten what it felt like to help someone and how much love there can be.

    Somehow those two strangers brought me back to life.

    So yeah, I believe in angels. I met a pair of them working Wal-Mart one day.

  179. Thank you, and very nice things you do too. I think AnonOrange is very OT in the things he does–I wouldn’t want to have to confront some of the things he confronts. I hope he may come to realize this.

  180. LOL you guys really ran away with that one!

    And every time I read about something OT that somebody did, it reminds me of more things I have done. I guess we start to forget how amazing some of the things we do really are…

  181. Yea Marty, My ears were burning. Things are great. Up to six dogs now including the pig and cat. Quite a handful.

    Sounds like you are busier than a one-legged-man in a you know what!


  182. The phrase that sticks in my mind is “we are not giving anybody these abilities, (he already has them…) we are just restoring his willingness to display them…”


    by David Miscavige, COB RTC
    Private Journal Notes
    Not to be Published

    The make-break point came when I decided to really put my theory to the ultimate test – punching my best friend in the whole wide world…TC.  I pulled him in to my private inner chamber office and said, “Tom, would you like to see a magical new use of OT powers that has the potential of changing the face of this planet and this universe?”

    He didn’t hesitate, “Of course, Dave!” He was smiling, as usual.

    So, I let him have it…SMASH… right into the side of his head, under his hair of course so it wouldn’t show on film. The smile left his face immediately. Needless to say, he was stunned in his tracks. I kept my TR-O in. He started to cry. And so did I. He shouted, “WTF!?” as he checked his head for blood.

    I said, “Tom, you said that you were thinking of making some kind of secret huge donation, one that would blow the socks off anyone who ever found out about it?”

    “Yes,yes, yes” he stammered while continuing to sob.

    I reeled my own sobbing in enough to ask him, “Well then, how much?”

    A smile came over his face. “OK, five million” he said.

    SMASH! Right into his other temple, hard.

    Tears started  running down his face as he recoiled in pain.

    “Meat, Tom, meat! IT’S ONLY MEAT! I’M HITTING MEAT! See?” and I started punching my own face as hard as I could over and over while he stood there in stunned silence.


    Pause…I decided to push it for all it was worth…SMASH! Right dead center in his guts, doubling him over, and while he was contracted in pain I snapped him into my vise-like head lock and applied the harshest Chinese haircut I’ve ever, ever, ever subjected anyone to, ignoring his cries and pleas for mercy, until you could see blood on my knuckles.


    I let him go, stood back and saluted him at attention and simply held his gaze with more admiration than I have ever bestowed on anyone aside from L. Ron Hubbard himself.

    Tom stood up straight, rubbing his bleeding head, crying, looking totally confused. “Jesus Christ, Dave, what the hell was THAT all about?!” he exclaimed while backing away from me.

    I stood my ground and held my salute, keeping the TR-O admiration flow in fully, without flinching. Tom fell into a chair, just looking at me, puzzled and still rubbing his head and stomach.

    I snapped my salute down from my brow swiftly so as to make a sharp, slapping sound against the side of my neatly pressed trousers.

    “Congratulations, Tom, you’ve just made the largest single parishioner donation to Scientology in the history of the world! Ever, ever, ever!”

    His face went slack. You could hear an IAS pin drop. Recognition came into his eyes. I handed him the prepared certificate from behind my desk, framed in extinct Galapagos Tortoise shell inlaid with exquisite Madagascar sapphires and diamonds, printed on sacred Brazilian rain forest tree paper. It said “LARGEST CONTRIBUTOR ON THE PLANET AND THE MOST DEDICATED SCIENTOLOGIST I KNOW • MR. THOMAS CRUISE MAPOTHER IV • $50,000,000.00 • PERMANENT KHA-KHAN • SECRET SECOND IN COMMAND”.

    Tom held the framed certificate delicately in his hands for a moment before finally looking up at me with tears still in his eyes. His face seemed to grow larger as his smile swelled literally from ear to ear and his eyes started to glow with the prideful recognition of what he had just done.

    “OT, Tom, OT,  with a little Expansion Formula thrown in. Do you realize that by simply punching a little meat out of the path of Theta, you and I just achieved the largest single donation in the history of Scientology and that YOU, Tom Cruise hold the world heavyweight title of THE SINGLE LARGEST CONTRIBUTOR ON THE FACE OF THE EARTH? And we did it by just punching some meat. How’s THAT for OT, huh?”

    Tom’s face lit up like a Christmas Tree lighting ceremony in Rockefeller Center. He placed the certificate gently on my desk. His hands went to his head like he was holding it from flying off his neck as he began to rotate, slowly at first, then faster and faster before he broke out into a dance so exuberant it made his performance in Risky Business look like it was done under anesthesia.

    We both were laughing now. Tom lept six feet across the floor onto my sofa and proceeded to jump up and down in exhilaration. “Look!” he shouted, “I’m on Oprah!!!” He jumped and jumped while we both line-charged uncontrollably for at least an hour, if not more, until we were both literally rolling all around the floor of my office, laughing and laughing, interrupted only by the sporadic embrace of two exuberant happy friends!

    “Meat units!” he would spontaneously erupt with, which then caused our laughter to once again rise to the surface and shake our meat units uncontrollably.

    “OT!” I would respond, which would then set us off into another long round of gut wrenching laughter.

    This went on and on and on until we were too exhausted to continue any longer, our mirth completely drained. Dripping with sweat we draped our arms around each other and just stared into each other’s eyes, in complete awe of the other’s beingness.

    “Punchin’ meat”, I said with a wink, “OT-style, Tom.”

    “Yeah, punchin’ meat”, he chuckled while gently touching the tender spots on his head with the tips of his trembling fingers, “OT-style meat punchin’, sir, saving the planet one punch at a time.”

    Tom held his certificate like it was a new born baby he’d saved from a forest fire in one of his action movies.

    I flexed my jaw muscles and saluted him again with the little strength I had left as one last tear of joy rolled down my cheek. 


  184. OTDT

    AnonOrange presents the Daniel Montalvo law suit to Riverside City Council and the cozy relationship with Sheriff Lee Baca ~~ the head honcho Sheriff ~~ a David Miscavige *buddy*

    I would like to think that we on this blog have the ability a 360 degree view of any poster here. Thank you.

    PS I think your satire is just brilliant.

  185. I like the second draft better too 🙂 It’s lighter and communicates better. So much better, that I finally figured out the one true prerequisite for being OT – a sense of spirit of play. Or just a good old wicked sense of humour, such as:

    One day God (the biggest bestest damn OT eva!) decides to build a planet. With oceans and clouds and plants and continents and stuff. Very pretty. He finishes the basic framework and just before putting life on it, calls Michael the Archangel over to have a look. Micheal reckons it’s awesome and asks what’s it called. God says “Earth”. Michael thinks that’s a cool name and looks closer. Then he asks, pointing

    “What’s that tiny top half of that land bit near the bigger land bit?”

    God replies “Scotland. I have special plans for that place. It will have mountains and valleys and deep deep lochs and rich wind-swept meadows. It will have cold winters for strength and glorious summers. It will have the clearest water streams you’ll ever see and grain fields that will make you angels weep with joy. These Scots will make something called “Scotch”, it will be the finest stuff ever made, it will make strong men rise up and maidens tremble. I will make these Scots fierce and undefeatable, the world’s greatest armies will lie at the borders humbled and in tatters. I will give these Scots magnificent ringing voices that will ring down the ages, voices fit to sing in Heaven itself!”

    Michael thinks a bit and says”Good plan, God. But I can’t help thinking – what makes these Scots so special? Why are they going to get so much?”

    God replies “They’ll need it. Just you wait and see what they’re getting as neighbours.”

  186. crashingupwards

    Good point Trey. And easier said than done. It takes power, patience and an alalytically strong and inquiring mind. LRH had it. We benefit from it. Others had and have it. I cnnnot count myself among their number. But I do appreciate it when I see it.

  187. ΘTater/GaryLerner

    Marty, Your posting of your opinions of your abilities are exactly what I have perceived and know to be true. Here’s is what you said that I am referring to:
    “My personal experience is that the further I move up the Bridge, the more stable and frequent are my perceptions of my personal abilities to communicate telepathically and to effortlessly cause events to occur through postulate. Can I demonstrate that to prove it? I can and do to those with a similar reality and sufficiently regular communication with me to experience it. Can I get up on a stage and show disbelievers? No. For me it has to be effortless. It occurs when I get into Action and Games on the tone scale for sufficient periods that I begin to transcend to the level of Postulates. Don’t get me wrong – I don’t hang there all the time. I experience a whole panoply of emotion, including below 2.0 just like everybody else. But, when I get focused on possibility, and off of bands closer to effort, succumb and MEST, it just comes. I see a direct corollary to my ability to do so to Scientology training and processing. Which leads to the other “ability” I think is enhanced by Scientology auditing and training. That is the ability to disenturbulate entheta in another and to the degree that occurs to restore more free theta to him or her. And that leads them higher up the tone scale towards Action, Games, Postulates and beyond.”

    I could not have said it more precisely. OT abilities are subjective yet they are theta. As such they are reproducible in ones own universe at will per your own awareness and knowledge and training. For folks here that have not been able or have not yet taken that rocket ride through the OT bands, it’s understandable that it makes no sense or is incomprehensible that such alluded to abilities even exist. You are not “gaining” abilities as you do the OT Levels (LRH’s), your are stripping away what is “blocking” your ability to understand and be and do as an OT. Training helps you to see what is potentially available. It helps to guide you to being YOU.

    OT-8 on the other hand now allows you to “gain” abilities more readily by your own postulates and awareness (as you’ve stated above), effortlessly.

    The less effort, the more theta. Force does not produce OT abilities.

    Marty, you have observed this umm, phenomena of being effortless and “knowing” that your postulates worked. As time goes on more and more the people around you get better and better. I’m sure I don’t have to speak about that but I bet you have seen those around you living life and coming up tone as if by “magic”. 🙂 That’s OT, baby!

    Freeing Theta is what it’s about.

    Love and ARCU,
    Gary (excuse me while I exteriorize) 😉

  188. Trey,
    What a great summation.


  189. Wow, Trey that was fantastic! Love it. I wish I had known that you had studied philosopy in college when I met you on the Apollo. We would have had a lot of conversation/correspondence about that! Hope you come to the Texas Indie Event! I know y’all have one in L.A., but it would be so great to see you. 36 years is too long!
    Much love,
    Catherine von Ach

  190. Here’s another OT ability–the ability to move in time, for instance to see the future before it happens.
    One night I was feeling very happy after a good evening on course at the org. On my way home, I started onto Highway 99 where the tunnel passing under part of Seattle comes out at the north end. There is a concrete wall here between the entry lane and the tunnel lanes. Just before I reached the point where the wall would end, I “saw” a picture of a car coming out of the tunnel and veering across the lane divider area into my car. I slammed on the brakes. A car came out immediately through the lane where my car would have been, into the far right lane and away.

  191. ΘTater/GaryLerner

    Well said, splog! 🙂

  192. You should do a whole book in that style. Thats a good one OTDT.

    “Memoirs of a COB”

  193. Oh, f@*k!

    Mommy! Mommy! OTDT is giving me nightmares! Make him stop!

    Stephen King move over . This fellow does horror too. Outstanding, surreal, spine chilling horror.

    Bruce Pratt

  194. Interesting indeed. I find this stuff fascinating. Much more so than American Idol 🙂

    (Though I am a fan of Kung Fu Panda. He is awesome in his awesomeness) 🙂

  195. Karen no 1
    “Results like this are very personal. The pc treasures a win like the above FAR FAR more than “OT Ability” remote viewing or dancing through the air viewing earth from above.”

    Impossible to stop loving you when you post such stuff. 🙂

    I’ve been looking at this area for a while. Only recently a post by an old timer who worked with LRH personally made me realise I’d been a bit myopic. The three universes exist.

    Could only been created by OTs and I do not acknowledge anyone above thee or me.

    Prior to that I’d been looking at the definitions of OT and cleared theta clear. So.

    I surveyed quite a few old timers and those top of the bridge. Had they moved matter by thought alone for example? And yes some had, sporadically, and not with much repeatability. I did some minimal stuff here myself.

    But that sort of stuff negates our, presumably the creators, broad agreements re the physical universe. So not easy!

    However more broadly there are areas of OT that do not violate the laws of the physical universe. Telepathy, clairvoyance, postulates in various areas and so on.

    IMO the greatest source of scn is Magick. LRH comments in this area in the PDC.

    LRH quoted Crowley, who was brilliant. But with the ‘ Factors” exceeded this mentor in ease of understanding and clarity.

    google ” Naples Arrangement.”

    Many reports of an earlier magick universe.


  196. I loved what you contributed…beings at cause, creating and playing games.

  197. Floating Needle

    Once, the world was “known” to be flat. To say otherwise was heresy. Galileo said it was round based upon his observation through a newly invented looking device called the telescope.

    Nobody, and I mean NOBODY agreed with Galileo… until much much later. Today, it is “known” fact the earth is round, but it wasn’t until many moons later that methods to “effectively prove” Galileo statements were invented.

    LRH said there were abilities that were innate in beings and built a bridge to help people rediscover these abilities.

    Many people claim there is no such thing as these abilities unless the phenomena can be measured and done at will, and that’s’ what Ron was trying to do… make theses natural capabilities more real for people.

    But don’t blame Ron if you can’t see that the Earth is round, he’s telling you it is, but it’s up to you to look. Perhaps soon, instruments will be invented to measure such things.

    And if I tell you the Earth is round, because I have seen it… will you believe me, deny me or try and see for yourself?

  198. ΘTater/GaryLerner


  199. Thoughtful,
    Such beautiful insight! It has great impact with total non Scientologist perceive you. I too came into Scientology to be an auditor and to be able to help. I never intended or thought about the exchange for that. My only thought was to give help to another. I have many times experienced what you did – the response when you give help really does bring one back to life and invigorate livingness.

    Yes – there are so many angels in this world – and they change our lives daily if we are but willing to perceive the changes. I can also see how much I have changed by the interaction on this blog. It is a sure road to waking up the soul and putting one back into the confront of what is it I really want to do with my life right now, this minute and how can I help. Thanks!

  200. That was great and ruly OT on LRH’s part!

  201. Flying teapots. When I made that comment, I didn’t think it would be re-used as much as it did 😉

    Truth be told, it was frivolous because I have very little attention on manipulating MEST, it’s the easiest stuff in the world to deal with. Using tools and moving things around is second nature to me so if I need the teapot on the side table to move onto the dining table, I just pick it up and carry it over, I don’t see the need for tricks. No need for tricks in this time and place at least.

    What I do value greatly is to be able to get other people to play the game of life too, but this is not my greatest skill. I started my journey in Scientology looking to get better at this and to a large degree I succeeded, mostly from training and study and much less from auditing (didn’t have a whole lot of auditing). I still have a ways to go and a whole lot more steps to take that each go on up a little higher.

    OT abilities? Yes, of course I’ve experienced these. Wonderful, almost magical things that happen all too infrequently and without any real conscious control on my part. What I’d most like to have in the whole world is a little more control over this, to be a little better at making postulates come true, to be more alive and especially have more ARC/KRC across the spectrum. To be better able to create great effects that others can experience too and be happy with, to make life better for more folk than just me.

    When I asked my question day before yesterday that Steve answered so eloquently, I guess what I was really saying is that’s how I see it playing out in the future and I asked of those who’d had more experience than I if I was at least on the right track and had a valid purpose. I got my answer, I got it answered much much more thoroughly than I ever expected (never fear, I’m not overrun!). And the answer is yes.


  202. SAM
    “I can bring joy and happiness to another being.
    I can tell the difference between good and evil.”


    Wonderful declaration re the two rules for happy living. 🙂

  203. ΘTater/GaryLerner

    Observation of Life is a beautiful thing, n’est-ce pas?

  204. Sugar Plum Fairey

    Maybe Mark Twain and OTDT are one in the same…..

  205. Bunk,
    I’ve got a question for YOU. OK, stay with me here, and hopefully help out: E=MC2, right? So, apparently as matter (typically, matter includes atoms and other particles which have mass*) approaches the speed of light, it converts to energy. Now energy is “a quantity that is often understood as the ability a physical system has to do work on other physical systems. Since work is defined as a force acting through a distance (a length of space), energy is always equivalent to the ability to exert pulls or pushes against the basic forces of nature, along a path of a certain length.” (Wikipedia).
    * “Although mass must be distinguished from matter in physics, because matter is a poorly-defined concept, and although all types of agreed-upon matter exhibit mass, it is also the case that many types of energy which are not matter—such as potential energy, kinetic energy, and trapped electromagnetic radiation (photons)—also exhibit mass. Thus, all matter has the property of mass, but not all mass is associated with identifiable matter.”(Wikipedia).

    So, it would seem as matter, which is really slow energy, which is a property or ability of some undefined something, approaches the speed of light, it converts to energy, or the ‘ability to do work’.

    Here’s a question: What is doing the work? The ability is assigned to a source I’m reasoning, but exactly what is that source?

  206. I can’t but help see the irony in this statement seeing as how the CoS has also always been seriously invested in making money themselves. Don’t get me wrong I am in no way defending that secret crap either.

    Sure you could say the money lust has gone to an insane degree under DM but LRH surely didn’t shy away from demanding CoS produce serious cash flow too. It’s one of the reasons DM was able to get away with the crush regging, it was already an accepted part of the culture to a large degree.
    One of the major criticisms of Scientology has always been it’s fee schedule and demands of large amounts of money in the quest for OT.

  207. Splog,

    Randi and gang are to “paranormal researchers” as OSA is to “former CoS members”.

    Randi has gone after serious researchers (and their subjects) in a covertly hostile and destructive manner. Don’t buy into the JREF PR line that they “just want to expose the charlatans”.

  208. “Isn’t it so?”

    Yes, indeed!

  209. God that’s funny!
    Well done, very well done. Thank you for that creation or exercise of OTness.


  210. Oh, and another one! While doing the emeter drill where you are supposed to call the read (the coach is squeezing the cans to create them) even if visibility is limited, the coach took the meter around behind me. I called read after read, “There! There! …There!” until he finally came back overawed. I had called every one perfectly. Well of course, I was SEEING them!

    And I had an auditor looking way down into a drawer one time at the moment I thought, “Gee, I’m a bit critical of her auditing, maybe I should say that and we’ll just get the withhold out of the way.”

    She instantly looked up from the drawer and asked, “What was THAT!”

    Gained my respect, I’ll tell you! She had seen a read that the top of her head was pointed at.

  211. I echo Rinder on this one, OTDT – this is awesome.

  212. Margaret,

    I haven’t seen or read any evidence of that myself, but I’m willing to look if such exists. Do you have some?

  213. Thank you, Karen B.

  214. Marty,

    If I may I would like to post one of my posts from Jeff’s blog.

    It goes as follows: (edited version)

    Often I find myself flying in my dreams. You know, me, with my body, cruising about in the air, practicing how to get higher, faster, etc. Improving my ability to simply “be” somewhere without “going” or traveling there. I have also assisted or coached others in being able to fly too. Interesting thing though, is that even though it is a dream, and it would seemingly be the easiest place to create whatever I want, I still find I cannot always “fly at will”.

    So, one may have pause to ask me: Can I really fly?

    Well I certainly cannot yet demonstrate it in a reality that would be observable or acceptable as “scientific proof” by most people. ( unless they can see my pictures) Their inability to experience my reality on this, and/or my inability to communicate it at their reality and acceptance, does not “prove” that I do not do it, at least at that level.. Totally controlling moving this meat body through the air of this planet, in this universe, without the assistance of other MEST, I have not mastered or even been vaguely successful at, but in my dreams I can fly!

    I do not tend to agree that “science” is the only “proof” of reality.

    I am guessing that we all see pictures, have thoughts, and dream. Curiously, “science” has not yet developed a means of accurately sensing the content of these “things” at the reality with which we each experience them. Using a purely ”scientific” yardstick then , since they cannot be sensed by this “science” then they do not exist (for this “science”). This “science”compounds their error (blindness) by saying “Since it cannot be proven “scientifically” these things do not exist at all.” Yet they each experience them personally. Any “Science”, that operates in this fashion, is not “science” at all. It is DOGMA.

    So I ask… where do we draw the line on “what is REAL?” Do we have to draw a line? Where would you draw it? Is it perhaps a gradient scale, as LRH describes it.

    If what I have told you about my “ability to fly” is true (in that I have experienced it for myself), I ask you, can I fly? ( and I ask you to trust me on this one. Flying is not as important to me as truly duplicating another being, or getting a data evaluation right, or helping someone cognite or regain an ability, or creating a more optimum philosophical or physical environment.)

    Since we are Thetans and we do “operate”, pretty much everything that we do is an OT ability. As one becomes “more OT” (with or without certificates) one could reasonably expect for him to be able to exercise more abilities to create his universe to his liking, at will.

    When, or if, I become capable of bending the solid portion of this MEST universe to my will and do a flypast with this MEST body, I will no doubt be as surprised as you. (and stupid proud of myself!)

    What are OT abilities? hmmmm…..


  215. Skeptics don’t really deny that these abilities exist, per se.
    They just require proof for extraordinary claims. There are many places to test these claims, whether it be telepathy, remote viewing, past lives, etc .
    If no one really wants their abilities tested in a scientific manner, then it is no surprise that skeptics remain skeptical.
    So to make claims of super abilities, but having no desire to then prove it, makes no sense. Why even make the claim, then?

  216. The idea of heliocentrism had been in existence since at least the 3rd century BCE. And while not popular with the clergy of the day, to say nobody agreed with Galileo is false.

    And we now know that we live in a heliocentric system…not because Galilieo told us, but because he proved it. With more primitive devices than we have today.

  217. Joe,
    In SOS, The Basic Laws of Theta: Affinity, Reality, Communiation
    LRH talks about the ratio of theta vs entheta in the environment and how in a heavily enturbulated environment even Releases and Clears go effect but later rebounding to full state and ability when removed from the entheta environment. I think this applies to OTs as well and is why LRH came up with the PTS data.

    It is very common to hear about recovered ability and beingness once removed from thhe church environment. So, do you think we all might have gained a bit more knowledge in spotting and handling SPs after that? I sure did.

  218. This was meant to go at the end, not as a reply.

  219. This thread is going to need reclassification as a footnote in the encylopedia of existentialism – the viewpoints and wisdom bantered back and forth here are what I always imagined one would find in an AO or someplace similar. You know, beings sharing the wins of expanded consciousness and newly found dimensions of their existence? In other words, OT abilities found, gained, realized, etc. Instead, there is a hush in the air, and one develops a distinctly hunted feeling when making eye contact with a staff member who will inevitably change the subject to ones credit card number.


  220. martyrathbun09

    Who is making claims? We’re just chewing the fat amongst friends here.

  221. martyrathbun09


  222. ΘTater/GaryLerner

    LRH is smiling right now at you!

  223. martyrathbun09

    So, what do you want from me Sunny?

  224. Could make somehow clear that you are NOT Mike Rinder? I read your posting and wondered what happened to Mike Rinder, posting a posting like that. He is the most famous Mike here and most people think of him first when they read a Mike posting.

    LRH started from SCRATCH. He did his OWN research. He wanted an answer to his question: What is a human being? He said that nobody could answer this. Scientology is not a stolen subject from others. He did all the work.

    Listen to him here:

  225. I was referring I guess to this:
    I don’t approach the subject quite like Jeff does. I think he – having not experienced or acknowledged or claimed any OT abilities – approaches it “glass half empty.” Having experienced, acknowledged or claimed otherwise, I approach it “glass half full.”
    There is no specific claim, but there is a claim of experiencing OT abilities. The inference from most readers would be special abilities your average person does not experience.

  226. martyrathbun09


  227. No, LRH did not “pull truth from everywhere”. He discovered what nobody before discovered. I read the Master Key System a few years ago and found no mention of the 8th D.

  228. Ha! Kay, that idea of the gorilla lying down in the middle of the street made me laugh out loud! That is tone 40. You got it, lady.

  229. Much of this debate–and any debate for that matter–comes down to evaluation of data. And evaluation of any datum depends on having a datum of comparable magnitude.
    If your entire focus is the physical universe, you really don’t have a datum of comparable magnitude to theta. “Not-MEST” is an inadequate datum to understand theta.
    The only datum of comparable magnitude to theta is theta itself. You need another thetan to evaluate the datum of a thetan.
    But, if you deny the existence of theta and thetans, evaluation becomes impossible. It’s like the old joke of the farmer saying, “There ain’t no such animal” when someone described a giraffe to him.
    So, how can you really debate the benefits of something to someone who refuses to acknowledge it’s existence in the first place? And if they might allow that such a thing exists “for the sake of argument” how do you get them to evaluate the data since they don’t have experience with it, don’t have a datum of comparable magnitude.
    One of the things I’ve noticed is that you are mostly debating with someone who is not in valence. A person in valence knows he’s a spiritual being. Mostly the debate is with the person’s circuits. DM is mostly a control circuit.
    Or, you may be debating the issue with someone quite aware of his spirituality but who feels betrayed by Scientology–such as Jeff. The issue isn’t so much whether the person is a spiritual being as a question of what abilities that spiritual being actually has, and whether Scientology actually has the means to gain or improve those abilities.
    What fascinates me is why some individuals have such stellar gains with Scientology and why others do not. Why is the understanding and perception of some sent through the roof while others feel nothing? And feeling nothing, these same individuals once filled with hope do a reverse vector and go on the attack.
    I think much of this comes down to the willingness of a being to experience existence as-is. If you can’t view experience as-is, you can’t really completely understand it and you can’t completely get rid of the charge.
    And, oddly, if your reality is steeped in MEST then as-ising something creates the illusion that it’s disappeared completely. And how can you evaluate a change against something that has ceased to exist? It’s not there, so there is no comparison. The tendency is to believe it isn’t there because it was never there in the first place. Thus, no datum to evaluate.
    The only way to evaluate that change is from the point of its creation, from the viewpoint of theta. From the viewpoint of a static, points of as-isness still provide data. From a human viewpoint, that which as-ises becomes a non-datum.
    And a non-datum can’t be used to evaluate anything because it doesn’t exist.
    But, for a thetan willing to view a condition as-is, the residual understanding remains experience and understanding. Enhanced understanding of what underlies the conditions of this universe.
    One of the main problems with getting gains in Scientology stemmed from the continuous refocusing of attention on MEST. You don’t get gains with a present time problem, and MEST is essentially a problem–a continuum of problem.
    So, the attention units which should be used to evaluate the condition of theta keeps getting sucked into involvement with MEST. Buddha found that he had to take several breaks from life each day so he could meditate and maintain his high spiritual state. He kept getting sucked back into the present time problem of the MEST continuum.
    But this is not just a debate over data and experience; it is a question of how the individual is evaluating those data and experiences.


  230. I don’t answer questions from people that make fun of my name, Mr. Fudd.

    Especially when the new name means “Nonsense.”

  231. Cindy Pinsonnault


    To me, this has always been what OT represented, not parlor tricks and other people’s idea of OT. I think it’s the ability to handle the things you want to handle. And it doesn’t matter to me whether that involves moving things with the mind, with theta, or with a pair of hands. If people can resolve problems that have plagued them and if they can accomplish the things they want, that’s an ability to cherish. The ability to solve problems and create results is valuable and if the state of OT improves that ability in any way, that’s a good thing.

    And also for me, the proof is in the pudding. I don’t care what kind of certification someone has, if you look at their life and it’s a mess, then they are to that degree NOT an OT. But if you see someone who can get things done and do it with confidence, affinity and efficiency, then that person IS to that degree an OT.

  232. barneyrubble

    I am late on the chain here, have been busy working. I am posting without reading the comment board which sometimes is a mistake.

    As an auditor and Qual guy who has produced 100’s of OTs and audited about 20,000 WDAHs over a 20 year period I KNOW the tech works if standardly applied without GAT arbitraries, etc. I’ve seen this so many times firsthand. There is no question about this.

    Marty mentions about people got onto this so called revolution from reading his website- you can count me in on this even though the Tampa Bay/St. Pete times got my doormant radar up on this first.

    Having said that, I have known (not well) Jeff Hawkins over both of our careers in the Sea Org, and I respect him a lot. He is a terrific writer and I agree because he was one of the top target of DMs abuser list, he has every right to be as angry as he is. My only other opinion is he has not gotten the gains of the so called grade chart. But now that he is removed from the C of M, I hope he gives it a try again. I really do.

    I will now read the board to get a better understanding of the current situation on this topic.

  233. Cindy Pinsonnault


    I just love that you include references to other writers, philosophers and thinkers. One of my long-time objections to CofS was the denial of contributions from any other source than LRH. It seemed like they were afraid that acknowledging any kind of insight on the part of any other being, ever, would take something away from LRH and Scientology.

    But, in fact, I think it’s the opposite. When you can study other philosophies and learn about other ideas, you begin to see how they fit together. You can also see what makes Scientology different. The idea that no one but LRH ever managed to come across truth and tell about it is CofS spin. Knowledge and understanding of other philosophies, I think, should make Scientology stronger and LRH more real. Furthermore, there are some good lessons that we can learn about what happens to ideas when they are altered.

    And to show that this comment has something to do with the topic at hand: The pursuit of the state of OT is not new. And accepting that there is at least some truth in many other philosophies may help bring understanding about what true OT really is.

  234. Mrs. Friend of Ron

    Um, yeah, get your Auditor training or use it and watch the miracles abound. 20 years worth of Epileptic ceasures gone because the pc finds the postulate he made to have to take that ceasure med! Someone who could barely walk, running around the org — I mean RUNNING around and around the outside of the org expounding on how he felt 40 pounds lighter when he thought his back had been ruined forever and he might have problems even walking for the rest of his life. Myself, thinking I might never use my arm again without great pain after a shoulder injury — nothing even gave me hope until my NED assist.
    –Correctly applied Red on White.

  235. Mrs. Friend of Ron

    Ditto on the wow.

  236. Mrs. Friend of Ron

    Ludwig, what an OT, magnificent!

  237. I included “restored” as a possibility. 🙂

    Really, it still doesn’t mean that Hubbard knew how to do it.

  238. Tony DePhillips

    You are one funny son of a bitch. That was a real gut buster.
    It’s like reading a MAD magazine for Scientologists.

  239. Thanks, Marty and Sam. I was being a little facetious. I actually KNOW I make my own “luck”, just as I can make my own “unluck”. Working on this last part … Great discussion, though, and one that serves – I’m guessing not accidentally – to move us on up a little higher.

  240. martyrathbun09

    Michael, on this point “What fascinates me is why some individuals have such stellar gains with Scientology and why others do not”. My experience over the past two years of working with people using Scientology solely with the intent to move them up higher, in an environment free of gimmicks, oppression, extortion, and lack of understanding – tells me it has quite, quite a lot to do with how Scientology is administered.

  241. That was spoken by someone who spent some time in the trenches of those who cared or “got it”…you could be my c/s or auditor anytime Karen #1!
    But I’m just fine, Dahlin…
    As far as what I think about spit and whittling about OT abilities?
    Address the subject–if it helps some, that’s fine.
    I’m sure because it’s my reality but I do think I summed it up pretty good in my comment to Jeff’s post.
    OT ABILITIES: ABLE to make something happen.
    That’s all it was ever supposed to be about. Individual interpretations are just that.
    Pick your game!

  242. Windhorse
    You are too kind.
    How you remember my birds blows me away.

  243. Cindy,
    What a well thought out and spoken post.
    You nailed it.
    Good job Cindy.

  244. Centurion,
    I believe what you imagined you would find at an AO has not existed since the late 70’s. You would have enjoyed the first 10 years of AOLA. There did exist conversations such as these and they were fun!

  245. Marty, “Tells me it has quite, quite a lot to do with how Scientology is administered.” Not just “how” but even the very IF Scientology is administered. We know much of what is given today is NOT Scientology and even that squirrelly stuff is administered in the incorrect environment.

    No need to wonder why many don’t make stellar gains. More pertinent is to wonder how any gains are made. There is still power in the basic truths and I know you see the results of these correctly applied and in the correct environment. That very truth and validity of the tech is in the end what will persevere for all to see.

  246. OT abilities might include the ability to remember:

  247. Jeff you are awesome!

  248. I can fart really loud.

  249. I’ll tell ya what…and this has nothing to do with the post but Jeff is simply an amazing marketing guy. He as an intuition about a viewer’s personal stake in things that is just uncanny. He’s not really even marketing; he just has an ability to access and penetrate, that’s what it is.
    Look at the traction and legs that this subject matter has.
    WOW! Sittin right on the end of everyone’s nose.

    It breaks my heart when I think about the wasted talent, the wasted time, just the damned wasted opportunity.

    And fuck the wasted money, David Miscavige. Keep it and rot with it!

  250. I have not done the OT levels, however ….

    I recently watched a film called “the secret” The information in this film covers basically OT abilities. The subject matter is the law of attraction or in Scientology terminology “postulates”. After watching that film and with the LRH data I’ve read, the subject of OT abilities became crystal clear to me.

    My conclusion of this subject is that we are all “OTs” we just don’t use these abilities 24/7. LRH tech is there to free people’s stuck attentions so they could use and control their inherit abilities better. To ask someone to “demonstrate your ability by seeing what’s in another room” or “move that object” or such tricks could or could not work. However, one thing I know for sure without a single doubt is that “thoughts become things”.

  251. Sure, splog, but where to begin? Here is one of the most recent ones — Randi starting the rumor that “Uri Geller has reversed his claim that he’s a psychic”. Uri never made any such reversal (as Randi knew). Unfortunately, the rumor spread and many (especially the Randi-bots) still believe it.

    This sort of thing has been Randi’s MO since day one.

    But I say to Randi: put up or shut up? Replicate using “stage magic” — under the exact same controlled scientific conditions — the results that Swann, Price and Geller were able to achieve.

    Since he hasn’t been able to, in all these years, it looks pretty obvious to me that the “Million Dollar Challenge” is just diversionary, hoping that people don’t notice that he’s simply using anecdote and ad hominem.

  252. Speaking of green and metrics and OTness, I came out of a session – early in my Scientology days – and halfway across the street from the Org I had a cognition that pretty much could’ve moved mountains. I saw a truth that had been obscured for a very long time. I literally had green bolts of some kind of energy emanating from my head. It was like a fireworks show against the night sky. The next day I got on the scales and I’d lost 5 pounds. The entire shape of my face had changed. As a friend walked by she looked at me, then looked again and said, “Wow, you look ten years younger.” So there you have a metric: mental mass.

  253. Windwalker,

    You statement “Often I find myself flying in my dreams,” reminded me of the following song “Walking in the Air.” Your wins are much more than the song so I do not imply that is the simplicity of it but that opening statement reminded me of the words of this song. Enjoy it.

  254. With all of this talk about OT abilities and all, I thought that I would point out that there is something higher than that: Total ARC – Native State.

    About 3 days after finishing my FPRD Basic form, I had an experience in the wee hours of the morning, where not only did I exteriorize from the body, but from the entire physical universe. There I was, aware of being aware, no mass, no wavelength, no location in space or time, but having the ability to postulate and percieve. It was awesome! Pure static. All mechanics had vanished. I cannot tell you how “long” I was in that state, as it was above time. But I did make the concious decision to “come back” , as a) it was a ‘no-game’ condition; and b) I wanted others to “have the same experience”. And I had total reality on Axiom 1.

    So I agree with Marty in the sense that “we have sometime since passed the point of achieving uniformly workable technology. The only thing now is getting the technology applied.” That is the simplicity of it. It doesn’t look like anyone else is doing it.

  255. Scott Campbell


  256. This post on this subject is a wonderful creation of this group putting all of the puzzle pieces together. It sparkles brightly.
    Wow, what a REHAB of reach for abilities to attain, causing OT experiences to flash in one’s mind whether before Scientology or since.
    I wish every ex-Scientologist could read this and experience a rehab for him or herself and join this group.

  257. Scott Campbell

    That’s your viewpoint.

  258. Scott Campbell


    Did that answer your question?

  259. Scott Campbell

    Is being irritating an OT ability?

  260. How about the simple reason that he wanted to keep the organization afloat and wanted to fund further research.

    Some will say that isn’t enough to explain it and that he went too far. Or went off the rails at some point, at least. Maybe he was human and had a case himself. But that’s a separate subject from the whether the tech works or not. And beside the point, if you think about it.

  261. Chantal, I believe Mike Rinder posts as “MRinder”.

  262. You really have captured one of the world’s most unnatural relationships. Very well written. Freaks in love.

  263. “Napoleon used to choose his generals on the basis of all their qualifications and one final factor. “Is he lucky?” We are possibly looking at the anatomy of luck when we look at an individual’s position on the Tone Scale. Theta will attrackt MEST to it. And what do we mean by luck except an X-factor by which an individual or group obtains MEST with minimal effort. An investigation, not yet made, might demonstrate that even in gambling a man’s luckiness could be forecast by his psychometry. As the accident-prone collects accidents, so does the 2.0 and below individual collect bad luck. Those things with which he associates break or become involved as to ownership. His friends seem to melt away. “Life goes against him.” A group, situated below 2.0 on the Tone Scale, has vast trouble with its possessions an property. It seems to alienate other groups. It is not lucky or prosperous. Actually, in both cases, the suicide spiral has been entered and the actions of the life cycle tend to require that the individual or the group commit suicide. Entheta, once in action, contages its enturbulence into other theta and organized MEST and, when enough can be generated, death can take tlace and another cycle can be begun, a new individual, a new group.”
    from DIAGNOSIS AND REPAIR OF GROUPS, January 1951, Vol 1, p.125ff

  264. Joe Pendleton

    Yeah Terril. At the same time, he was a cause point who postulated and saw those postulates through to creation. Is that not the state of Operating Thetan?

  265. I like your view.

    Everything you state in your view here aligns with and is reflected in the Axioms of Scientology.

    But you knew that, didn’t you?


  266. Thanks for that Trey.

    This distinction of the philosophy vs the technology is not made often enough. The distinction has stood me in very good stead. If the actions going on do not align with the philosophy, then I have a string to pull.


  267. Some fuckin’ poetry CP! Damned righteous poetry.


  268. Ah yes, SA…..

    I would have loved that so, so much. I attempted it several times. I could not get into three sentences about spiritual gains without somone butting in and asking me: Are you qualed for the SO? Do you know anyone else who is qualed for the SO who is not in? Have you moved up in your IAS status? Have you dontated to CCHR? Have you started a flow towards your OT III package? Are you an FSM? Do you have an FSM? Will you sign this agreement to practice Scn standardly? Are you coming to graduation? What symbolizes total freedom? What would you pay for such a thing? Have you been to the ship? Can you come to a briefing? Do you have the latest release? Is your meter certed? Do you have a backup meter? Are you aware that the psyches are bad? Who is your reg? Can we go to LA Roses and talk about your future? Do you have your tickets to the event? Are you confirmed for the event? Are you going to the event? Are you aware of the price increases? Can you look at my liability formula? Can you give me a lift to the HGB? Can you do some call in? Are you aware that Saddam Hussein is on psych drugs? Are you aware that the book you are holding has been banned? Can you please take your conversation inside the org, the protestors are coming. Have you taken LSD? Can I conduct a survey? Is this a good time to talk? Is this a bad time to talk? Can we talk? Who is this with you? Do you have your basics??? Do you have large debts? Can you see me after course? ……..etc.

    One just longed for a conversation about something spiritual. I envy you and the other old salts, SA. Those must have been heady days around the orgs..thick with tales of self discovery and the unmistakeable simplicity of beingness.

    Thank you for letting me dream a little.


  269. Hey Marty —
    Nice Axiom 10 here. Stellar. Thank you for hosting.

    Hey Jeff —
    Damned awesome of you to kick start this with your own wonderful Axiom 10.

    Hey everybody else here —
    Nice Axiom 10s too. OTs work best among OTs.

    I will sleep well tonight knowing he whose name must not be spoken won’t.


  270. Do you have a brother named Mark?

  271. Well, I’m pretty late to this party, but one thing I can definitely say is true for me is being able to discuss various viewpoints is critical to ever being able to come to an understanding about it.

    Like when I hear/read someone say something along the lines of, “…and any other viewpoint is reasonable…” it in itself makes their point suspect.

    Each and every one of us can write a dissertation about our personal wins, observations, thoughts, conclusions, etc. and they’d each be right and true from our perspectives. Some of these would resonate more with some readers than others — and we’d start getting a group going. Just be wary of the group doing the thinking for you…

    I’ve trained as a supervisor and trained people. I’ve trained as an auditor and audited people. Same with C/S’ing. I’ve done OT levels. It would be difficult to say I received “no benefit” from any particular action, but I also would have a hard time saying I received “everything promoted” from any particular action either.

    I’ve yet to read Jeff’s blog or Steve’s commentary on it (but will now as it sounds pretty interesting). But on this subject I believe there’s something to be said for inspection — inspection of oneself as well as circumstances around you.

    I think it’s possibly for someone to become more able (or dare I say “OT”) many many routes. I never would have said that when I was a slavish “bot” in the church — afterall, it was the ONLY route and anyone saying otherwise was out-KSW, had other fish to fry and was an advocate for other-practices.

    There have been people all through history that have demonstrated at least a semblance of enhanced spirituality. Hubbard codified methodologies he came up with.

    Are they right, wrong or indifferent? Who knows? Did he really do any research? Who knows? Was he replaced with a clone so the subject could then be corrupted? Who knows? Do they work? Who knows…

    There’s the old adage of doing exercise for a time each day with the end result of having a lengthened life. The problem with is is you spend more hours of your prime life than you get back at the end. Are the OT levels one of those things — walking you down the path of an enlightened spiritual path only to have you waste precious time you could actually be living? To some I bet they are, to others not. To others it would be too painful for them to look and acknowledge the time/energy invested could have been spent elsewhere — that the neglect to other parts of life for all that time resulted in less than the actual levels did; like the spinster that can’t look at how little she truly lived because she feels it would leave her with no reason for having lived the life she did.

    Do many of us have OT Phenomena that really could have simply been coincidence, but for all the work we’d put in and the PR we’d been spoonfed, made it HAVE to be OT Phenomena? And now our personal “truth” can’t even be inspected for the same fear as the spinster’s?

    And is the scenario that all this auditing stuff is a bunch of hooey, and our own minds trick ourselves into believing what we experienced as “real”, any less valid than it being real in the first place? Does telling a child that, “It’ll be alright” and seeing him calm down make those words magic or a trick? One could say if our minds are that magnificent that we can trick ourselves into being well, improving, changing our disposition, etc. then the validity of the techniques used to coax that greatness are irrelevant.

    So for me I’m not going to argue that OT is “real” or not — there’s little point. And while I may discuss my own personal gains/lack of gains I wouldn’t do so in an effort to convince anyone of them one way or the other.

    At the end of the day you’re going to be with you. If you have the facility to inspect, I urge you to do so. Maybe you’ll find that very little of what you’ve believed for all these years is now true. Maybe there’s a big fear about doing so and you’ll cling helplessly to your past “truths” regardless of if they could hold up under your current inspection-ability. Maybe you’ll rediscover that all of your truths are still valid, simply from the perspective of making yourself right. Or maybe you’ll find a nice, calming peace with all of this inspecting.

    The point being, all of it ends up being true to some degree or another. If you have the ability to inspect, dissect and discard various falsities once held as truths, well then you’re pretty damn OT, right? Similarly, if you can’t for the life of you change the idea that you’re right about the tech, your wins, Ron, OT, [INSERT WHATEVER HERE] and cling to it forever, then you’re also pretty damn OT, right?

    If there was one thing I could see happen on the various blogs/forums, it would be for each of us to grant that same view to each other. None of the viewpoints expressed are wrong — but if you can’t bring yourself to inspect and discuss them you’ll never give yourself the chance to find out how right you are.

    And you people are amazing…

  272. Centurion, yes, I agree. The air of pioneering into the realms of the possible. Yumm!

  273. Sugar Plum Fairey


  274. Bunk,
    It is custom in many parts of the world to shorten a name in familiarity. James to Jim, Bunkai to Bunk. A sad fact for many Richard Heads and well, it would seem you too.

    Still, the question … it goes unresponded to, and considering its pertinence to the subject, it would be awfully nice to hear from you on it.

    (Is Bunkai your name, really? Are you Japanese?)

  275. Yes, Grasshopper. Ever notice how magical people, wizards, witches and the like are always portrayed as weirdos, out on the margins of society it not outright outcasts and mostly considered malevolent to greater or lesser degrees? They are out of agreement with the way everyone else agrees that life works, and you have to be out of agreement to make teapots fly because people generally don’t agree that teapots should fly. Our literary traditions contain that bit of understanding about magical abilities and their demonstration.

  276. Scott Campbell


    Fantastic surmise of the nature of reality.

    Your coolness definitely obtains in this universe.

    L, Scott

  277. I never lost a game of “hot hands.” Does that count?

  278. LRH’s final line at the end of Scientology and Effective Knowledge lecture said “all I ever tried to do is get you to look” and then the tape ends.
    The word “to look” in Spanish = mirar
    The root or mirar in Latin is mirari
    It is also the root of the following words:

    What is the Indo-European root of mirari? smei
    Smei is the root of the English word SMILE
    SO there you have it. Take a look. Miracles to admiration.
    And you will SMILE.
    In a world like ours to SMILE is OT.

  279. Scott Campbell

    Anyone who needs convincing that OT abilities do exist should subscribe to SKEPTIC magazine…

    And voila’! Watch them vanish.

  280. @DFB: The guys in the white lab coats are more solid, but it doesn’t mean they aren’t open to asking questions and looking for answers. I was one of the guys in a labcoat and serendipity (hah!) put DMSMH in my hand.

    I had been looking for a way to scientifically elevate the spirit from the solid mass and was amazed at what a shortcut DMSMH presented. I began Scn, I studied, I audited, I worked – the best of times, the worst of times – and I left – shaking my head and wondering what we were going to do about it.

    Then, a few years ago, my wife asked me to look at a video made by some Ratsumthin. I watched the dude’s indicators for MWH phenomena and general BIs. When he got to the part where he talked about being an auditor and auditing, I knew what I was looking at.

    There’s no mistaking the indicators that come in on a true auditor. That’s what it was about. That’s why I started this path, too – having and seeing the indicators that come from helping at that deeply personal, spiritual level.

    Those indicators are not confined to just “us”. Even many scientists want to better the world. But getting them to use Scn to do it is currently at the level of a bad joke, and we know that the bad representation that Scn has in the solid world has everything to do with how it has been managed.

    However, we do have an incredible technology. We do know how to communicate. In reality, if we want to communicate with a solid world it means we might have to use a solid communication. I’m not talking about force, I’m talking about science. I’m not saying we have to prove Scn works 100%. Shrinks are happy with 20% success. Drug companies are happy with 60%. It may well be a lie that Scn can handle 100% of all cases. Whatever! Just quit with the lies and get some real numbers. Even if the numbers come in at “only-as-good-as-drugs,” Wow! better than even odds that you’ll improve without drugs?! Wow! And if you don’t, “Thank you, Mrs. Jones, here is your money back, as requested.” It really shouldn’t need to get more complicated than that.

    The point is, we’re in a new stage of evolution. We have to adapt. We have to correct the things in our organization and philosophical DNA that have been our failing. Shutting out science may be one of those things. There are many in the science world who are agin’ us, but there are going to be some who are fer us. They may be as easy to sit down next to and talk about Scn or OT phenomena as any of the rest of us. That opens the door to an environment where it may be possible to make realistic “psi” evaluations. It won’t be easy. If it was we’d already have done it. Like I said earlier, let’s not take the short view on this, but the long one. What’s a couple of decades in terms of eons? We’re all used to hard work. We could work out a plan and do this if we wanted to.

    There’s nothing wrong with keeping the cuurent momentum going through the Indie field, either. There’s many thousands of ex-Scns out there that are of a mindset that embraces spirituality, if not organized Scientology. But we don’t try to get all our nutritional supplement from one vitamin, so why should we limit Scn dissemination to the truly limited public that currently accept it?

    Why not encourage scientific analysis? Ethical use of the science would be the only reason I could see – and that it is true that that is a significant reason. However, if we allow science into our philosophy, and it accepts, it will be a very slow process. Long enough for us to establish new ethical rules of use. A few decades. Definitely not next Thursday by 2. We can discuss the problems and work out sane solutions. We can put as much forethought into it and dredge up as many memories of failures as we can to ensure that we keep it on a path that will survive the challenge. And we can stay open to the challenges as they occur – not slamming the door on someone noticing an outpoint, not insisting we are faultless, but applying correction where correction is needed and only to the degree it is needed. We’ve been through the drill. We do know it.

    That’s my pitch. Thoughts?

  281. As long as we are discussing OT, let’s get a definition straight here:
    “Thetan–someone who can’t be killed but deserves to be.”
    Joyfully tendered as a Christmas gift 1998 to ex-Int base staff member, Paul Schobel (RIP).

  282. Marg,

    JREF is just another way of saying PSICOP.

    It’s basically the same false flag operation.

    Also that Million Dollar Challenge is about as bogus as it gets:


  283. 40 Yr Scientologist

    Here is an example of an OT ability, and how, sadly, it was unreal to some Cof$ members:
    In the early ’90’s, while at the HGB for some “cleanup” program, I was asked to help find a fellow outer-org trainee who had blown. What made it more urgent was that he had attempted suicide in an HGB bathroom a few days before, and had somehow gotten away from his 24-hour “watchers”.

    I knew the kid, having seen him a few times while on study- he was an 18 year old from Connecticut who had joined the SO, not knowing what he was in for.

    I found him – in a city of what, 7 million people? – in about 1/2 hour. He had been gone for about 8 hours when I started looking. Didn’t use no phones or stinkin’ GPS, either.

    I simply went to where he had been berthed (the motel near CCINT) and asked myself, “If I were 18 and cooped up on a hot summer’s day- what would I do?” This line of thought led me out to Santa Monica Boulevard where the buses were running, and I walked up to a west-bound bus and asked the driver, “Does this bus go to the beach?” and he said “Yes”, so I hopped on, with my buddy, who was helping me look.

    We arrived at Santa Monica beach, walked to the sand and I told my buddy, “You go down the beach that way, and I’ll go this way, and lets meet back here in half an hour”. He started off to the left, I went to the right.

    In about 45 seconds, “the kid” walks up to me on the beach with a big smile and says, “HI! What are YOU doing here?” And in one the greatest comebacks in my life, I said, “I just thought you might like a ride home”.

    We went back, I was put in charge of his “watch” for two weeks, made sure he had a safe space, and he got some auditing and turned out fine.

    But what really galled me, was when we got back to the HGB I was practically grilled by OSA people about how I found him – they couldn’t accept that I just DID IT – insisted that I must have had some secret comm line with the kid, or talked to him before he left, etc. etc.

    I guess by the mid 90’s, the “standard miracles” just weren’t that routine anymore, to those it should have been.

    No, I was just trying to help “a comrade in need, in danger or in trouble” – Code of Honor by LRH

    And yes, it was extraordinary, but not something I would even consider doing as a demonstration – what would be the need?

    I have gifts as a pathfinder and navigator. I know I led settlers across the Rockies in the 1840’s. Would these abilities be as strong without the Scn training and processing I have had? NO WAY, JOSE’.

    I am also a pretty damn good auditor, which I value the most highly, and with which I have produced the most “miracles”, thanks to LRH’s tech.

    Thanks to all of you for reading my little story, and continuing to put this blog (and everything else around us) here.

  284. Karen,

    Beautifully stated.

    I’ve seen similar miracles myself with good standard auditing.

    Also regarding OT or Psychic ability.

    They are unquantifiable and exist outside the MEST Universe so how can you measure them?

    Also how can you “prove” they exist to someone who is unwilling to look.

    Especially if they have decided a priorly that “even if it were true they wouldn’t believe it”.

    Besides auditing on the advanced levels or any level is for the benefit of the Pre OT not the skeptic.

    Their wins are their wins and so are their abilities.

    I suggest everyone pick up a PAB entitled ‘The Certainty of Exteriorization’ and read it.



  285. scilonschools

    The ‘OT powers’ often talked about seem very familiar with animal insticts, so many we have tuned out of in ‘normal’ life.
    Thus in children and some ‘prinative’ cultures these Survival Insticts seem to be more apparent, this is very apparent with the aboriginal culture.
    A book printed in 1994 called Mutant Message Down Under by Dr. Marlo Morgan claimed that Aboriginal Australians can communicate over long distances using telepathy.
    Apparently many anthropologists have come to the same conclusion with tests done in the 1950’s showing that more than 50% of those Aboriginals tested were telepathic.
    Robert Matthews suggests that Aboriginal telepathy may have developed because of the survival advantage it might h

  286. scilonschools

    If one takes my above stated views of connecting OT Abilities to ‘animal insticts for survival’ i would anticipate Marty’s Abilities to be elevated presently, because not only is he ‘fighting’ for survival on a personal basis (and protecting others he perceives under attack) against the attacks of DM’s cronies, he is also fighting for the survival of his lifes philosphy Scientology in the way he understands it to work (LRH v DM).
    That is one Hell of alot of ‘Survival Energy’!!!

  287. Marty and friends,

    So many beautiful stories… so much poetry and magic and miracle posted here. I read Jeff’s blog, and Steve’s, too. Yes, Jeff’s was provocative, and I guess it would be cool to levitate by thought or beam self over the Andes for look-see and bypass the “laws” of physics. Still, what rings more for me and what touches me most deeply are the wonderful and sometimes deeply emotional stories others have told of here – stories of miracle, magic, high coincidence, perception, cause, and affinity.

    It has been many years since I completed my last OT level. With a bit of a sense of self-preservation and a very strong desire to live a good life, I steered clear of the punishment that corporate Scientology seems to have become. I didn’t have to fight it, I just decided to step around, over, and aside until the train wreck concluded. I did not see myself OT enough to stop it. Maybe it had to happen so we could learn.

    Even with not yet having done OT VII and VIII – my life is far different than it would have been had I not done the training and auditing that I have done. I knowingly do postulate and create and have those amazing coincidences and bits of “magic” occur regularly. I know that my insight into human beings and how to reach them is deeper than most of the non-Scn I interact with. I live reasonably causatively – what I call two or three lifetimes at once because I am involved in so many projects – professionally, artistically, personally. I sense a deep affinity with many others, and by granting them beingness as theta beings, I find they too can produce results.

    On top of that, I laugh and enjoy more than I did before doing OT levels. My sense of humor is so much broader. My abilities to learn and synthesize and reason are far,far better. I can deal with volatile moods (on several flows), I FALL IN LOVE DAILY! – with the sunrise, the chirping of the birds, with great music or science, with people around me – alive and passed, family and friend.

    Thus, my glass is half full (or more). I attribute it to two things: 1) training both admin and tech, and 2) good and thorough auditing that allowed me to go Clear and OT (at least some of the time).

    Love to all,

  288. That’s good, splog.

    I might add that one major thing LRH did is he made himself LOOK at the things that were preventing him from Looking and Seeing.

    He talks about this in an article about the origins of the Grade Chart I believe. He explains that what is handled on the Grades are all the things that prevent auditing from occurring.

    Those things that prevent a person from looking and seeing are also the barriers to auditing and living, and by making himself focus on exactly those things, he worked out the tech that resolves and removes them.

    (I hope that is making sense!)

  289. Well Sunny V, see how unworkable “they” made the CoS by tying everything to large donations of money?

    It wasn’t like that in the 1960s and 1970s, services were affordable and a person was never reged for donations with no exchange. Those kind of donation programs did not exist back then. And usually in my experience, a person was reged for the service he himself felt he needed and wanted for his own personal benefit.

    So I don’t see the irony.

  290. “Measure what is measurable, and make measurable what is not so.”

    — Galileo Galilei

    The problem with measuring nothing is it can’t be done with a ruler. Essentially, “theta” (or consciousess/awareness/soul) is a no-thing.

    Heisenberg came close to measuring it when he realized that electrons in the slit experiment are affected (differently) by the an observer present.
    Hence demonstrating it (theta/the observer) is somewhat measurable by a process of elimination…what it is NOT. Or by an observable effect (causation).

    I commend Hubbard for, within a certain discipline, coming as close to making the soul measurable, if not quantified, as human history recently has come.

    I enjoy looking around at this marvelous universe, and others. Something is operating. If it isn’t theta operating, what is it? The very fact of being self-aware is a fundamental of operating.

    I know it’s a good day when I recognize I’m walking around through myself 😉

    Love these discussions, love this article and Marty’s pan determined respect, profound understanding and certainty of life and others, love Steve Hall’s article (link mentioned above), love your comments, love you all and the world.

  291. Perhaps magic happens when we cease from stopping it from happening.

  292. I had some experiences myself. May I share in brief:
    I had been walking in the park. In the park there had been a lake. With lots of water birds in the water. Waiting for being fed with bread. Sometimes they come ashore to be in a better position. As I had been away from that lake around at least 300 feet I felt very much affinity for those birds and they came ashore. I guess more than 100 birds. But no one there feeding them. Then I let loose and they went back into the water. While we approached the lake further I did it again. Birds coming out and back in. On the lake itself I repeated it. But had to stop it as my kid with 4 years could not stand that many birds around her.
    On an ethics cycle in copenhagen I had been assigned to the kitchen. Dish washing. Lots of work. First day I went to bed and had seen that the others had been working after muster to late night. Maybe 1:00 am to get all clean. Next day I realised that I had to work there too until late night. But did not want to do that. My solution had been that we finish work to muster at 10:30 pm. And I did. That evening I pushed away the in charge and gave my team the goal and controlled it through. (no anger and shouting.) We finished in time 10:30 pm. Next day I had been the boss. After 4 days I could finish my ethics cycle. Usual time is longer than 14 days. As a last try to stop me they let me finish at 2 pm thursday. You know I had to get my liability signatures done in FOLO EU at 2 pm thursday. I made it in 2 hours with all the top execs on my list.
    I could add some more. But the point is that I use my abilites to help my comrades as good as I can and to improve my environment. Have to admit that sometimes I use it for my own purposes. But that can backfire like mad. A sort of negative sample: I had since years attention on a girl. One day sitting at home I observed that she had some intentions towards me. I picked that up. I found that a very good idea and called her (phone) and talking straigt with here about what I picked up. She literally exploded in my face through the phone. Never did similar things again after that.
    But the important point is not if one has some so called OT abilities or not. I cannot move matter and cannot do spoon bending. And lots of other things. I cannot make music and cannot paint. I am not good at charming women. And and and. The important point is that we enhance conditions and life with what we have and can do. Thanks that I could share my ideas.

  293. I used to know a guy who could have diarrhea of the mind at will.

    Do you suppose he was OT?

  294. I sincerely recommend the 2006 movie ‘300’ about King Leonidas and the 300 Spartans of Thermopylae as it holds the key to OT-ness. – I feel somewhat sorry for Jeff Hawkins now that I know that all he wanted out of Scientology were flying teapots, he was never in the right game in the first place. – It is not ( and it never will be ) about what Scientology can do for you. It is about what you can do for Scientology.

  295. Cheers Jim, will do

  296. crashingupwards

    I believe LRH said the only richness there is , is understanding. Its not about seeing behind doors or reading minds. I once asked my child to pick a number from one to ten. I guessed it. We repeated it 2 more times. He was quite blown away. I even surprised myself. I dont know at what level I was picking it up or if he was mocking up the pitcure and I was seeing or or what. But mind tricks, though interesting, have nothing to do with understanding and do not leave one any richer.

  297. Great! I read that approx 50% of scientists do believe in a higher power (it’s lower for Biologists and Sociologists and higher for Physicists) and it’s been that way for decades. Seems sometimes that materialistic scientists shout loudest

  298. You could say they are using the brain as an E-meter

  299. Just wondered if you felt interweavening fees and money so tightly into recieving Scientology hindered it in anyway.

    I understand the fair exchange concept but all the same it always seemed like buying spiritual enlightenment. Many other religions have survived and flourished on simple tithing or simply encouraging donations, not requiring it. People give generously when they feel they benifited from something. Would Scientology benefit if the fixed fees and money requirements were removed? Or is that seen as incompatible with the philosophy. Just curious if you feel the emphasis on money and fees has helped or hindered Scientology on the whole.

  300. That’s so beautiful.

  301. Plus many on that Steve. B is Beeeautiful.

    The marvelous potpouri of viewpoints is wonderful too. It’s a great forum to be pan, self and other determined about. With the mechanics of this interweb jobber, a whole new communications system to play with as well.

    So much fun, and an infinity at hand.

  302. Trey,
    Yes, it does seem to boil down to the Theta the solver v. Theta as MEST issue.

    “I’m a rock.”
    “No you’re not.”
    “Yes I am.”
    “No you’re not.”
    “Prove it.”
    “Be three feet behind your head.”
    “Didn’t happen.”
    “OK, you’re a rock. NEXT.”

  303. Karen,
    Yeah thanks. I’ve enjoyed a few of his presentations on You Tube. He’s got balls. I’m just messin’ with him about the Speedos. 🙂

  304. You are over the top! You are The Single Largest Contributor To Laughing On This Planet!
    Anyone own a frame shop out there? Get this guy a plaque!

    And Thoughful, that was a wonderful summation.

  305. Ditto on the dittos.

  306. OT abilities influence the world and all dynamics constantly but it´s a little hard for the world to understand how and to what degree. Even free Scientologist are not always able to assign proper cause to events but perception and awareness are higher and thus recognition is easier. However, some non Scientologists do recognize source and then explain it as a smart action or something like that.

  307. Maria,
    “The inference from most readers would be special abilities your average person does not experience.”

    These aren’t ‘special abilities’, they are innate abilities. This ‘average’ person you mention is a fallacy. It’s a lie. It’s an implant.

  308. martyrathbun09

    Thanks V! You got me walking through myself too.

  309. Leonore,
    Thank you. We are the lucky ones. We get to drink from the glass of living life as free beings every day. And guess what, the glass never gets empty. Cheers my-lady! Continue enjoying life. LRH wanted us to understand it and be able to be whatever we wanted. Therefore we get to choose what player we want to be, change the rules when wanted (as long as not cheating any other player games we have agreed to) and go where we want. Don’t ya just love to feel the wind in your face.

  310. Mirari,

  311. Thank you Lynne. This has to be the greatest compliment I have received from anybody in the last three years of my quest against Miscavige’s CoS. I’ve emailed my friends about it.
    BTW, the worst insult I got was on ESMB when I was called “The Tommy Davis of Science”. Boy did that hurt!

  312. Friend of Ron

    This is excellent, thank you trey.

    Whenever I apply “try not to be 3 feet behind your head” I get an inkling of what it means to: “…. regain your grasp on what you have always been capable of, of fully owning what you have always known….”

    Life is a lot simpler and the path to ones goals much clearer, from that vantage point 3 feet in the back.

  313. Jeff Hawkins did a HUGE amount for scientology. He edited those great Advance Mags, was THE great marketing man at Int., and I didn’t get that all he wanted was flying teapots from scientology.

    What he wanted was to help his fellow man — that’s what I think. And he did.

    And frankly, it IS about what scientology can do for you because as you gain understanding and a happier frame of mind — you can then DO something for others because of scientology.


  314. martyrathbun09

    If the result is clinging to anything is the result, then it ain’t Scientology you practiced in my opinion.

  315. martyrathbun09

    Ironically, he is still doing a lot for the advancement of Scientology – without even trying. Seems everybody gets to wear their hats, with far more effectiveness, once out from under the cloud of suppression.

  316. Friend of Ron


    Reading this blog and all the answers posted in response to it is yet further proof to me that OT abilities are indeed restored through the practice of Scientology.

    Only cynics, glass-half-empty guys, will not benefit from the truth of OTness displayed here.

    This planet needs glass-half-full people as they will always work on improving conditions since they believe better days can be created and people can move up higher.

  317. I can make a cheeseburger disappear.

  318. Sapere Aude,

    Isn’t “proof” nothing but mutual experience which results in an agreement? Those witnessing the experience acknowledge that it occurred.

    I would agree that the state of theta can not be proven to someone convinced he is a meat body. But two beings who are very aware of their spirituality can definitely become aware of the spirituality of one another. I’ve been with so many highly aware thetans, merged the energy, space and time and consideration that each of us was creating to such an extent that there is that “wow” moment where both of us are acutely aware of the other as a theta being rather than a body.

    The experience is far more “real” than that of the physical universe because the sense of reality stems from theta, not MEST. And when you have two or five or ten beings all having the same experience, all aware of that same reality, wouldn’t that qualify as “proof?”

    If I remember some of my Bible, Jesus said, “Let he who has eyes, see; let he who has ears listen.” By the same token, only theta perceptics can perceive theta. (Other than some rather sophisticated “electronics” which don’t exist on this planet.) And only thetans have theta perceptics.

    Body perceptics won’t do. So, using body perceptics and MEST devices simply cannot prove the existence of theta. But other theta can provide that proof.


  319. Bruce,

    I wonder if the need to demonstrate proof is merely a dramatization of the lower condition that person is in as a thetan. What else can a person in doubt express other than doubt?


  320. Last night I went to bed thinking how wonderful it was that we are able to have this interchange of ideas, each one sharing their point of view and seeing the expansion of viewpoints, including my own. It is very reminiscent of the high interest and enthusiasm of the 70s when I first got into Scientology.

    Then this morning, I read Steve’s article and my viewpoint shifted and expanded even more. Taking Splog’s comment which in itself was a pure description of OT in my opinion and then expanding upon it to show the relationship of parlor tricks and OTs was brilliant.

    It seemed as if each paragraph added a new dimension to the last. A whole lot of understandings falling into place along the way in regards to past experiences and huge bright vistas for the future. This was so good that I will have to read it again and maybe again after that.

    Again, I’ve had a wonderful time reading the comments of posters from all three blogs, especially this one. I am continuously impressed by the depth and caliber of intelligent posters who frequent here.

  321. Lynne,

    Speaking of norms: maybe the joke of all this rests in the fact that we exist from the top of the know to mystery scale all the way to the bottom simultaneously. We have to be OT to continue to create all the stuff we are creating and holding onto this stuff and moving it around in space and time–plus creating thoughts, considerations, postulates and opinions.

    The proof is when you find out in session or wherever, “Oh, I’m creating that headache” and it goes away. You knew all along you were creating what you were creating. You know it and don’t know it and then proceed through mystery soup just to make it interesting. But, at some point in applying Scientology processing or in meditation or whatever, a spiritual being reaches that point where he recognizes that he knew what he was doing and caused it.

    At this moment, we know at the highest level of our beingness (actually beyond beingness) that we are creating. And what is more OT than that? Nothing I can think of.

    So, aren’t we all OT all the time. It’s just that we’re pretending we aren’t.


  322. Laura,

    What other proof could one ask for?


  323. Sarge,

    Such simplicity. Must be getting close to the truth. Truth is always simple.


  324. Your humble servant

    Thank you all for your contributions and for the many beautiful and inspirational stories offered here.

  325. Dang, that glass IS half full. Good eye, b’y, good eye.

  326. Marty,

    Basketball? Rock Chalk, Jayhawk, baby.

  327. You have very clearly described what the church has sunk to, faux interest that lasts as long as the solicitor feels that you have something they want. If they discover that you don’t, they are gone in an instant and on to the next target (victim). Parasites.

    Those heaedy days at the orgs from ages past are being created hera and now in the independent field. Rejoice!

  328. (Just received this promo from Flag)


    Come to Flag and Do Your M-Rundowns Right Away

    That’s right, the M-Rundowns! 

    Here’s the story: We have secretly been working on an unknown project behind the scenes for twenty-seven years that is so powerful, so amazing, so incredible it is going to shatter everything you thought you knew to be true about your OT capabilities.

    In 1986 after LRH left for his Target Two Mission, we were cleaning up inside his confidential advanced OT research office and discovered a note taped to the underneath of his desk drawer.

    It simply said, “When things get really rough on this planet, just release my M-Rundown.  It’s the ace I’ve held up my sleeve for years, but have been reluctant to allow it’s release due to the extreme power the rundown holds. Good luck!”

    Unfortunately, a pack of suppressives shredded the materials as part of a “routine” tidying up. However, this was discovered in time to preserve the billions of shards of shredded paper and it was a only a matter of piecing the materials back together piece by tiny piece.

    Needless to say, this was no small task because of the high security shredder that had been used and the pieces were extremely small. Let’s put it this way, imagine if you had to gather up all the leaves that had fallen in a ver large forest and glue them back on all the trees exactly where they came from. Now THAT’S a project that some would say was absolutely impossible, but that’s exactly what we achieved on our very own ‘Mission Impossible’.

    A special task force of 100 specially trained retired ex-CIA cryptographic agents were contracted for this monumental task. It has taken 27 years and millions of dollars, but it is now finished, the materials reconstructed, studied, memorized, drilled, piloted and are now packaged up and ready for delivery to YOU.

    This is what those who have completed the M-Rundown in it’s pilot phase have had to say:

    “OMG!” B.Z., Lake Tahoe

    “Wow!” M.F., Los Gatos

    “Jesus!” R.M., Hemet

    “This stuff is like…it’s…I feel like…GEE! Ha-ha-ha-ha!” T.C., Bellair, CA

    If you’ve already completed your L’s, are in good case shape, and REALLY WANT TO EXPLODE into unbelievable new realms of Para-OT beingness and capability, call your Flag registrar immediately. There are a limited number of auditors who are qualified to deliver this mind-blowing, never-before-seen or heard of nuclear power-packed set of processes and scheduling slots are filling up fast as word spreads.

    Special TRs had to developed for training the squad of Spiritual Ninjas to be able to live through the heretofore hidden entheta that flies off your case with the force of a battalion of Mack trucks driving over your face.

    Although we can’t reveal too much at this time, we will give you a small idea of the special training the new M-Rundown auditors had to go through to be able to deliver it unscathed:

    • 5 hour no blink no breathe TR-O Expanded across from an actual wild animal
    • 100 MPH wind tunnel line-dancing
    • Something we can’t mention

    Now, THAT should give you an idea of what we’re talking about!

    Don’t wait one second longer, call right now!


  329. martyrathbun09

    Blue Devils, my man. 100% graduation rate, and team ball.

  330. Jim,
    Funny. Reminds me of a frequent poster on Jeff’s site.


  331. Hi splog,
    It did help. Thanks for taking me seriously. Others have tried to “wow” me with their scientology vocabulary, which I do not understand. However, there seems to be many aspects of Scientology that could not be discovered by simply looking at the world and drawing conclusions (IMO). Saint Thomas Aquinous said that the holy trininty was so true, man would have eventually discovered it even without Jesus. This does not sound radically different from the idea expressed in your post. Even though I believe this to be true, I imagine it sounds to wierd to be true to non-Catholics.

  332. martyrathbun09

    OTDT, the sorry thing about this one is that I didn’t notice who authored this post – you – until I was down to the “special TRs” (when I did a double take to look a its authorship) that I even had a suspicion this was not a Miscavige release. Talk about duplication and understanding. Pass on that, with flying colors.

  333. Moon,

    Wouldn’t it be such a wonderful world to be surrounded by people such as you describe? Since I was already exterior, reading what you experienced made me go exteriorist.


  334. OTDT,

    You are fucking insane!

    My kind of thetan. We must have been spawned from the same theta swamp.


  335. martyrathbun09

    And I’m a distant relative…you know the 5th cousin who can’t quite speak right, but gets you all.

  336. I have a win on this blog. Many times I read the blog and come back later to make comments. Frequently it is at the end just before it moves on to another subject. The blog moves on. I would feel unacknowledged. I also have felt others must feel unacknowledged. It is my personal aberration that I get charged up when there is no response. (I am NOT suggesting that every comment has to be answered; that would make blogs impossible to administer.) I was wondering what could be done about this. Now, all of a sudden Marty appears to be trying to acknowledge most comments on this post about OT wins. I got a nice ack above. WONDERFUL!!
    Thanks, Marty. Don’t know if that’s an OT win or not, but my postulates sure seem to be working a lot better lately — much incredible stuff happening!
    ML. Cat

  337. martyrathbun09

    Sorry I can’t participate more – usually I’ve got three or more people aboard, and the breaks seem to be getting shorter and shorter.

  338. Jim,

    My teachers all told me I was special with special abilities. I got to ride the short bus and use my head as a drum stick on the class walls, moving through the works of Ginger Baker, John Bonham, Keith Moon, Alan White, John Mitchell and others. I even did some Richard Starkey, whoever in the hell he was.

    And then I became a special rock. I became an emerald, to be admired by all who see me sitting beneath a special spot light designed just for me.

    “And I shall dwell in the house of Helzberg, forever.”


  339. Charles Drum

    Hey Chantal,

    As for stolen from others, check this out and make up your own mind.


  340. Marty,

    I was wondering who Aunt Betty was always raving about. Made me so jealous I would split wood til my hands bled. And then split some more.

  341. GetTheConcept


  342. LRH showed us what is possible.

    Never at any point did he state that when you do such and such a Level anyone can fire comets into the sun at will.

    Scientology gradually rehabilitates those potential abilities.

    Maybe after OT-15 or whatever else is ahead, and/or after certain conditions have been handled, and enough people have moved through these bands, these OT abilities may become more realized.

    Scientology has substantially raised my abilities handling life. This is no minor miracle. Not yet to the point of seeing through walls, but I can get around in familiar zones reasonably well with my eyes closed. One little step at a time.

    I consider the ability to help another go Clear/OT far more OT than levitating objects.

    Perhaps the “Standard” of “Do something unreal & unbelievable for my eyes and ears” is an effect viewpoint laden with counter-postulates. And hey … you may be right … lol

    No shortage of people who can’t believe what they just saw.

  343. I seem to remember a tape from 50s sold as Secrets of the MEST Universe series where LRH explained that you’ve never really been in any other universe than your own. That you guild the MEST universe with your own Home Universe. Trouble is you never really learnt the tech how to build universes so that you could own one, alter it, conserve or protect it at your own determinism. This lack of tech caused thetans to go into competition with the MEST Universe which in essense is their own creation. Effect of own Cause. Ending up in a meat body and assigning it cause is way, way down the scale of potential abilities of Theta. Yet, I believe if one was happy with one’s own ability to build their own universe we wouldn’t be having this discussion right now. It seems observable many Thetans weren’t happy with their original abilities and sought to ‘pinch’ other Thetan’s creations, pictures etc hence a whole stack of rules were developed and agreed upon to ‘steady the ship’ so to speak. It also appears observable that a Thetan plus a meat body isn’t a workable dichotomy as such as doesn’t audit well per se, introverts and goes goofy with the myriad amount of communication terminals connected with the genetic timetrack of a meat body. Many processes are limited in use addressing that phenomena. There is a standard route to handle and give back the potentials of Theta to a Thetan, it’s called the Bridge. But to expect the full abilities of Theta while running around inside a meat body is just another postulate that the Genetic Entity won’t understand. It would be great if we could postulate ourselves free to do such things but it takes following a certain cause of action of auditing and training to address the ability to create, conserve, alter and maintain your own universe. Doing parlor tricks with MEST to impress others falls into a section of para Scientology which is attempting to enforce postulates over prior agreements – good luck with that.
    Even if you could move MEST around or float objects across the room. Your neighbor would probably beat you to death in your own driveway when he realises you could stop his kids breathing if you got upset with them. Just how stable do you think people are on this planet?
    OT abilities needs a steady hand and a clean heart.

  344. “I simply went to where he had been berthed (the motel near CCINT) and asked myself, “If I were 18 and cooped up on a hot summer’s day- what would I do?” ”

    I’d say that was outstanding duplication and reasoning.

    AIt reminded me of when I left staff. After being blasted yet one more time, I decided that I’d had enough so I walked. Destination, a city called Paradise. Had no idea what was in store for me there but knew it had to be better than where I was at currently and the name of the town had that special ring of R and R to it.

  345. Thanks very much for that, Worsel.

    Ever seen a Cooler at work? Casinos hire these guys because everything goes wrong in their presence. They’re just UNLUCKY and thus ruin winning streaks for those around them. If you take a look at these guys, they’re very low-toned.

  346. Graduation? What’s that?

    Man, Duke pulled a tough bracket. Texas a four seed? What was that committee thinking?

    But, I’ve always thought Duke was the team to beat this year. Scary good at their best. No one else has that much talent that well coached. No one. No contest. The athleticism, the way they pass and communicate! Wow!

    Our guys are a bunch of thugs, but who am I to talk.

    Also, because Roy Williams coaches North Carolina, we just love it every time you beat ’em.

    Since KU pulled such a soft bracket, maybe we can meet up in the finals. Lots of fun. Wish I had more time to watch the games.

    High Def rocks.


  347. Heh heh heh

  348. Scott Campbell


    What org were you in in the Sea Org?


  349. Tony Dephillips

    Man, you have OT humor abilities.

  350. All he ever did was to try to get us to look …. 🙂

  351. All this theta is really going to enturbulate MissCabbage

  352. Well said, splog –

    I always loved the line where LRH talks about ‘rubbing elbows with all manner of men’. It is a way of finding out about different aspects of the game, different viewpoints, different modes of operating. It is in essence discovering the rules of the game.

    And when one has that ‘tech’, one is more effective, more causative/less effect, and can play a better game. And with playing that better game comes helping others to move upward for themselves .

    It is a game where everyone wins.

  353. martyrathbun09

    Texas has some oil money pull or something; they seem to be over-rated each year, and get bounced in round one or two.

  354. martyrathbun09

    It already has. Can’t talk about the evidence of that at the moment, but hopefully will be able to in the not too distant future. Starting with LRH Centennial post a week ago, he’s been becoming progessively more psychotic. His newly placed gaskets to replace the last round he blew, are flying shrapnel all about his bunker.

  355. plainoldthetan

    I’ve found that “The Secret’s” Law of Attraction is not as workable as the Affinity Scale. (5707c17, THEORY AND DEFINITION OF AUDITING).

  356. So, yes, having read the blog topic, referred blog topics, and comments, I have a comment. To me, it all goes back to HCOB 26 April 1971, Issue 1, TRs and Cognitions. I consider increased abilities attributable to the cognitions achieved through the processes of training and auditing. In auditing particularly, when the pc cognites, he is not required to PROVE anything. If/when he goes out and does something “remarkable,” we still simply acknowledge. That’s the trained auditor in each of us. We actually do expect “miracles.” Many have been related on this topic and thank you for sharing them! Yes, my cup is more than half-full … it overfloweth! H

  357. martyrathbun09

    That is quite the slimey innuendo. You could handle the obsession to falsely identify with a healthy does of Dianetics.

  358. SunnyV

    LRH also talked about ‘exchange in abundance’ which is nothing like the church operates today with high demands for donos and auditing. This was NOT the way earlier on and was not, as you put it, ‘an accepted part of the culture’.

    No doubt any organization needs money to survive, but there is a point when exchange goes out. Tithing was done early on when the Franchise network was still existing. Auditing rates were reasonable – as an example, when I got in they were $15 per hour & raised to $25 per hours shortly thereafter. This rate was well withing the reach of the common man.

    So, your premise that this was some culture of greed created by LRH is false. He actually had policy on how fees/rates were to be calculated.

    What we have under the current Miscavige regime is money demanded for no exchange as in the IAS & IDEAL ORG ‘strategy’ & a few others. These are pariah organizations & strategies. As for auditing & altered course requirements, the heavy increases for the most part came under Miscavige.

  359. V, I for one am very happy to see you back with us. You’ve been missed. I always enjoy your comments and you bring much theta and love to this group. Welcome back my friend. Love

  360. Windhorse and Marty,

    Thank you for saying exactly what I was thinking. Jeff Hawkins never asks for or needs our gratitude or admiration, but he deserves it (and I suspect, has it) in bucket loads.

  361. One could also describe what you did with your child (“mind tricks”) as mind games, or mind play. Play is how children (and others) drill abilities that will be needed for survival. My granddaughter is at an age where she mimics what is said and done around here. She is learning how to do such things as talking and dressing herself, brushing her hair and singing a song.

    I would say that being able to duplicate the pictures or thoughts of your child has EVERYTHING to do with understanding. Can you have understanding without duplication? To a being that is essentially understanding, what makes you richer than your ability to increase understanding, or the ability to understand at will?

    I can’t think of an ability that is more the essence of OT than the ability to duplicate.

  362. Michael,
    You gave them a good try. I was humbled by it, me being more inclined to shorter shrift now and then. I have certain things selected for randomity, else I won’t have nothing fo’ me Sec Checks when pigs become people as I move higher.

  363. OTDT, this is my favorite of all the creations of yours that I’ve seen. I too thought it was for real (ridging all the while) until I got to the no-breathe TR O part – it took outrageous (and very funny) clues!

  364. Michael,
    I said ‘special abilities’ (rather Maria did), NOT ‘special school’.

    Richard Starkey, hmmm, left-handed guy, ummmm, ran a Naturist Camp for birders -Stark Naked-Staring something or other.

    Harvey Mason, now there’s a fella. Chameleon from the Headhunters in 74.

  365. Friend of Ron,

    I’m not sure I fully appreciate the exact definition of “cause” that Scientology uses. Are you essentially saying that being OT is having a positive influence on the world around you?

    If so, that’s a valid definition.

    However, the success stories on this blog aren’t really a strong indication that Scientology is the cause, since there are a large number of stories that are counter-indicative of this as well.

    Additionally, Scientology has not demonstrably produced either a Gandhi or a Dr. King.

    Finally, I would put a lack of certainty about having found the truth and a willingness to be self-critical as key characteristics about those individuals.

    Gandhi called his autobiography “The Story of My Experiments With Truth” for a reason (an excellent read, btw). King realized he couldn’t achieve racial equality without tackling other aspects of western society (Google “King Riverside Church speech” for one of his most important talks).

    That doesn’t mean that Scientology can’t be a basis for a means of developing “OT-ness” but I think there is significant work still to be done.

    The CoS is clearly not interested in rising to the challenge but the independents could.


  366. Good point Micheal. I do know the old man spoke at great lengths from time to time on the aberrative properties or characteristics associated with “proof”.


  367. Well, AnonOrange, I gotta say that it was people like you AND Marty AND Tommy Davis who woke me up. How’s that for three widely different viewpoints?

  368. Nice! Thanks.

  369. OT = cause over your dynamics. Let’s leave magic tricks to magicians…it’s trite boring stuff. Being happy and healthy and doing work that you love, that covers the first dynamic. Raising sane, intelligent, healthy kids, that covers one half of the 2D. Having wonderful friends to work with doing what you love, that’s the 3D, etc.

    However, what I see from the C of $ is the exact opposite. Sick, broke OT’s doing work they can’t stand, hanging around people they can barely tolerate, while neglecting their children who turn into drug addled losers, uneducated losers.

  370. For those of you who live in the Los Angeles area, please join us today for LRH Centennial Celebration @ The Shrine, Los Angeles. Meeting @ 5:00-5:30pm at West 32nd St & Royal St. on the N side of the Shrine. This is where the buses drop off all the staff.

    Exes, Independents and Freezoners make the best protesters. By knowing what to say, by recognizing staff, they have the ability to help people wake up from the clutches of the Miscavige’s Co$

    It takes courage. Jesse did it, while he was experiencing extreme fear and he’s very proud of that day. It was also much more risky back then.

    Thanks in advance for participating, any way you can.

  371. OTDT, this was SO real I could actually see and hear DM saying it as I was reading: “Let’s put it this way, imagine if you had to gather up all the leaves that had fallen in a ver large forest and glue them back on all the trees exactly where they came from. Now THAT’S a project that some would say was absolutely impossible, but that’s exactly what we achieved on our very own ‘Mission Impossible’.”

    Thanks for the great laugh!

  372. Hi Joe. Remember that the derivation of witch and wizard is from the word “to know.” In many religions, those who know are the ones to be denigrated, outcast, dunked, burned, jailed. Hmmm…..

  373. Excellent post! But will anyone who doesn’t want to believe in OT phenomena even notice it? LOL

  374. YES! There is a true OT ability: the ability to see a different viewpoint and understand it! WOW! I think you have hit on a basic truth there.

  375. Sapere Aude,

    Yes! I do love the wind in my face. Thank you for the acknowledgment, and “Cheers!” back to you (clink)! Thinking this over again, I would add that there are those moments when I believe I do get a glimpse over the Andes or under the sea, or through walls (if it were proper and I needed to do so), and so on. Don’t you?

    The beauty of the glass half full for me, though, is more – What I can get done? What can I accomplish (that I want and think is needed)? and especially, What can I get done with and through others – what can WE do? It is the element of being cause and creating some cool effects in living that is valuable to me.


  376. So Terril, would you only credit someone with OT abilities if they could write beautiful music WITHOUT having studied at all? That doesn’t seem fair. Just because I learned how to put words together effectively to write my historic fiction novels, doesn’t mean that I am not OT when I put them together in just a way to create an adventure for the reader.

    And certainly many people have studied music for a lifetime and never produced a work such as Beethoven’s.

  377. LOL–brings back memories. And a feeling of pulling in my anchor points to get away!!!

  378. I see your points, Joe. The biggest one for me is what you said about being able to let all these viewpoints exist without having to invalidate them. I think when someone is invalidated on a viewpoint, they cling to it more. A smile and a handshake have probably done more for bringing about a change of viewpoint than a slap upside the head. LOL

  379. I agree with Sarge, your absence left a vacuum and it is good to have it filled once again.

  380. OR they just didn’t know they couldn’t do it!

  381. Nice, George!

  382. Tara

    Yes, exactly.

    Hidden standards are a killer.

    I have seen a child who, at the age of 6, could play Brahms on the piano. I am over 60. So , since I cannot play the piano to this day, does that mean I have to start at kindergarten again? And even if I had taken lessons and practiced, I still may not have ever mastered Brahms. Personally, I just don’t seem to display much talent on the piano.

    I think it is acceptable to look around at others and see what various thetans are capable of. It gives you some ideas as to what you, as a thetan, are likely POTENTIALLY capable of. We have, each of us, accumulated a vast range of experiences, abilities, technologies, etc. over our “time track”. We are each pretty unique in which of those talents, etc, we are using, and how we are using them, at any given point.


  383. FoR,

    Great post!

    I remember years ago the concept of being ‘3 feet behind society’s head’ became a turning point for many who were just trying to get thru life themselves.

    The effect of adopting or knowing this viewpoint was increased space, increased resposibility – in short, greater KRC with the universe & all it’s components.

    There was a great group auditing session we had which had one look at his body, then the chair, the legs, the floor, then back up & locate the room, , then the street, then the area of town, then the city, the country, the continent, and so on. This was done in much more minute gradients.

    It ended up by backing right off the planet and of course, the ensuing viewpoint was one of extreme responsibility for all that lay below.

    In short – a very Causal viewpoint for an OT and a game to play.

    There were quite a few rafters that creaked that day.

  384. This reminds me of a laugh my kids and I had once. We walked out of the house and toward the grocery store. Before we got to the corner, I licked my finger and held it up in the air to test the temp. I said, “80 degrees!” My kids said, “Oh mom, we learned in school that doesn’t work!” We rounded the corner and saw the grocery store reader board. It said “80.”

    We continued past that store. A few steps later I did it again and said, “81.”

    We all turned around and looked at the sign and it said, “81.”

    That was one of those moments mothers love, when the kids look at you like you are AMAZING! Now that’s really OT, to get your kids to do that! LOL

  385. And you having that opinion is the main point I was trying to make. You’re absolutely right about your opinion! And I’m totally happy to accept it that way.

    We’re given opportunities with communication. Opportunities to act, react, reject, do nothing, etc. when people communicate things. You took the opportunity to respond to my comment nicely but you could have done any number of things other than that.

    For the record, I don’t disagree with your opinion. But at the same time I don’t know if it’s 100% true (nor do I have to). I mean having the ability to hold to something steadfastly, regardless of anything else, is quite an ability — in fact I think it’s a trait we all admire to some degree or another. So is the ability to re-evaluate and change one’s opinion. Different people might categorize these “abilities” differently, but it’s definitely not something just anyone can do.

    I remember KNOWING that Santa Claus was real. It wasn’t a “belief”, I knew it! I had empirical evidence of it — I saw the man, talked to him, received presents from him, etc. If anyone were to try and shake that reality I would have thought them sad little people. But these days I’m thinking there might be something else going on with the story of this red-suit-wearing elf. 😉

    Same with other religious practices. How many of us “Knew God” prior to Scn but were able to dismiss all of our “truths” so quickly? Clearly I felt great when I was into Christianity and prayer groups. Clearly I had workable procedures after being introduced to Buddhism and learned about and practiced meditation. And I had empirical data when I discovered Mysticism and used crystals (or other objects) to cause an effect in self/others.

    Yet somehow I was able to shed myself of those “truths” after I found Scn. I still think the data I found in Scn is incredible — and workable. I still find the applicability of it mind boggling. But I’d be a fool to think everything I got out of the subject so far was all 100%-concrete-evidenced-proof of the way things really are.

    Honestly, it could all just be a different harmonic of how I view Santa… 🙂

  386. Lady Minn, sometimes I ack a newbie particularly so it won’t seem like their post went off into nowhere, but I also don’t want to overweight the board with my comments. Your posts are always valuable.

  387. An enjoyable picture, Marty!

  388. Sapere Aude

    Ahhh. Thankyou.
    It is not for no reason that I have chosen the name “WindWalker” to represent myself here.

    If I remember correctly, (on a tape I think) Ron talks about “the magic track”, a period before this current track, where, due to the nature of things, manifestations of OTs bending MEST to their will, were commonplace. One aspect of the data he presented is that although it may have been quite simple there and then, doesn’t mean that it is so easy here and now. I remember taking away from that talk, that we can easily invalidate ourselves regarding “OT abilities” by not recognizing the differences in the situations, or even being aware that there might have been “easier times”.


  389. Wow, I’ve NEVER heard “It is not ( and it never will be ) about what Scientology can do for you. It is about what you can do for Scientology.” except by the most koolaide drinking bots. And this was yeaaaaars after I’d gotten in. The whole premise was to dismiss anything/everything that makes up the dynamics in favor of the organization. This is the line you hear at IAS reg events, at Ideal Org fundraisers and at Sea Org recruitment seminars.

    Scientology has ALWAYS been about the individual as the individual is the building block. The concept is simple enough — improve oneself and end up with a better life for yourself, family, group(s), mankind, etc.

    I’m not one to call people out on this blog (don’t think I ever have) but the sentiment above is a bit too creepy for my tastes. I wish I could grant it more beingness. For that lack, I apologize… **SHUDDER**

  390. I will take that as a compliment but I am not him.

  391. Yes, I got that picture. Very, very angry elf. We’re spoiling his big, well, crush reg cycle to “honor” LRH tonight at the Shrine.

  392. Right, regaining abilities is a nice game. I started doing so when I came in Scientology and haven’t stopped since. Even when an evil dwarf had booby trapped the only way I knew, I still kept going (I figured out my own way). 6-7 years ago I found out that nobody was wearing the 4D hat all Scientologists maxed their credit cards for. So I started that hat and I found that the greatest effects could be created when working not on the lower but on the higher (4,5,6) dynamics.

    I tried many ways and from one success to another I molded my MO and increased my effectiveness every week. I found that effort had no part it; any real big change was obtained without effort, energy, money nor other MEST. Quality usually did the trick and only once quality was obtained, a normal quantity of flow was needed to pull off great improvements in existing conditions.

    All wins came from looking, analyzing and communicating, none from pushing to convince anyone of anything, forcing to pay, buying, bribing, blackmailing, etc. It’s theta that converts entheta. MEST, enMEST and entheta played no part and are not causative which is very good news for the Kool Aiders that can now ease up and stop maxing their mortgages.

    I think full OT is theoretically achievable but once you do, you won’t have a game to play. However, it’s a very nice goal to work towards and you won’t achieve it easily because before you do, all dynamics will have lined up fully along the goals of Scientology and we’re still quite a bit off.

  393. That’s really great. Do you still have those abilities or do they faint or do you need to keep practicing and expanding on them?

  394. Hi Mike,

    No worries, you asked a perfectly reasonable question, and a good one. The CoS won’t answer it, so the best answer you’ll get is likely from folk here.

    Ron read and studied much before 1950, much of it ordinary by Western standards, much of it not so ordinary or even frowned upon (like magick). Who knows what he saw and learned – he didn’t speak much of it later on (nothing that I’ve read at least). There are snippets here and there, like the reference in Dianetics to being taught how to control his heart rate in India. Now only a fool or a DM-bot would try argue that all these other people through history were dumb, stupid and knew nothing.

    I think most of what LRH did was connect the dots – anyone trained as a Data Evaluator can tell you that astounding truths can come of of correctly connecting together facts that are already in plain view for all to see. Once he had figured out the comm cycle and asking people questions about their troubles using the Auditor’s Code, pieces would have started falling into place. Like the time track and past lives – when someone gives you data like that in session you can either reject it (this is bad science, the fallacy of disbelief) or see where it goes (this is good science, discover truth by observation).

    It would also be quite reasonable for him to omit referring to any outlandish subjects he’d encountered, his work post-1950 was done in the West where prenatals and past lives were already contentious. He couldn’t afford for the subject to be laughed out of town and dismissed as quackery. But that’s just my thoughts, I could naturally be completely wrong.

  395. Any Scientologist worth his salt can make just about any pain disappear in himself and/or others within minutes or hours. This is demonstrated daily by many, even within the Church (I hope). They do that by communication alone, something doctors can’t. Pain is very good measurable objectively and subjectively and thus would answer your question.

  396. Joe Howard (above) invoked Beethoven. I am on my knees for Beethoven. To listen to Beethoven, to play Beethoven 9 with others who can play Beethoven 9 is to play WITH Beethoven in real time – OT transcendence and pure exhileration.

    Here are the the words – first German then English – of the final stanza of Schiller’s glorious “Ode to Joy” that inspired Beethoven in writing the 9th “Choral” symphony (German Götterfunken translates as Godspark).

    Seid umschlungen, Millionen!
    Diesen Kuß der ganzen Welt!
    Brüder, über’m Sternenzelt
    Muss ein lieber Vater wohnen.
    Seid umschlungen,
    Diesen Kuß der ganzen Welt!
    Freude, schöner Götterfunken
    Tochter aus Elysium,
    Freude, schöner Götterfunken

    Be embraced, you millions!
    This kiss for the whole world!
    Brothers, beyond the star-canopy
    Must a loving Father dwell.
    Be embraced,
    This kiss for the whole world!
    Joy, beautiful spark of divinity,
    Daughter of Elysium,
    Joy, beautiful spark of divinity

    I hope my first attempt at embedding a snippet of the final movement of this piece works. Everyone should hear – even better – play or conduct – this piece “live” at least once in a lifetime!


  397. Centurion

    A little story for you, I think you might enjoy.

    Our Mission ED was a very ballsy lady. She used to give the most phenomenal lectures. In one such lecture, to brand new people, right off the street,(me included) she said the following. (more or less as I recall it. It was a long time ago.) This was to give some idea how a being becomes less able or “abberated”

    “So, here you were, out in space, throwing lightning bolts back and forth with another being. You would throw a lightening bolt at him and hit him and he would laugh and laugh, and then he would throw one at you and you would laugh and laugh. Remember?
    So, one day you are playing this game, and you throw your lightning bolt at the other being, and instead of laughing like he usually did, he does nothing. He just lays there motionless. This has never happened before. So you look over at him and you “think”, ‘ What happened? Why did he do that? I WONDER WHAT THAT FEELS LIKE!’ And BAM, you pull that mock up in on yourself, and you “crave” to experience it. Because something you did, did not turn out to be “survival, in your opinion, you also “said to yourself”, ” I never want to do THAT again.”

    Often she would throw this line in at the end of her talks…. “You really don’t have to believe any of this… but you had better!”

    Quite the lady.


  398. Scott Campbell

    Aye splog,

    The Scots are with ya on this, Laddie.

  399. Kathy Braceland

    ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh…at last… I have today off to catch up. Wow! These last 3 posts and comments sure have been interesting.

    Well, I would like to add my 2 bits to all of this. I noticed a lot of comments that explained the great value of learning, knowing and applying standard tech. I was so happy to read this. Training as an auditor and using that tech in or out of session is priceless to the nth degree, not only for yourself but for all your dynamics. After all, we are all of our dynamics, so it can’t help but better conditions in one’s entire life. It takes a trained auditor to help a pc up the bridge. When you get to soloing on the OT levels, you’re the auditor and the pre OT. That’s pretty cool stuff.

    I co-audited everything prior to Clear. I’ve also audited thousands and thousands of hours on a wide variety of wonderful pcs. And I use the tech in life…always. It’s just natural, it’s part of me and that’s how it is for other auditors too.

    A very unfortunate and really bad thing that happened in the current C of S is that the Qual Division got torn apart early on — around 1988 or 1989. The Qual Division is the last refuge for improperly handled students and pcs. Qual handles ‘flat ball bearings,’ meaning individuals who have received non-standard tech and the persons who misapplied standard tech. It handles any out tech anywhere in the org and fixes it permanently so it doesn’t happen again. Qual is not supposed to take orders from anyone. Why? Because if anybody else knew what to do with the broken public in front of them, they would handle it. Whoever was in charge of Qual International back then, blew it big time.

    The good news is, Qual is here within the Indies. That’s EXTREMELY cool!

    Regarding my OT levels. Well, I did OT VIII in August 1988. I had a blast! It’s a beautiful, simple, short and sweet process. I didn’t re-do it…it’s impossible to do again, just like any other step on the Bridge. Once you’re done, it’s done. I don’t know where the idea of only 1/2 of OT VIII being released came from but that’s not so. I didn’t do 1/2. There’s nothing further.

    Sadly, there are bastardizations of that beautiful level as Marty stated. Miscaviage’s invented OT VII Expanded and OT VIII Expanded are both bullshit. Prior to inventing these non-existent ‘levels’ he insisted that no one really finished OT V — he said that in 1990. Shortly thereafter, he declared no one really finished OT VII nor OT VIII either and wrote his own special ‘confidential’ issue explaining why this was supposedly so. Please…. He “ordered” all those on and those completed on Solo NOTS to re-do their Solo NOTS. Not everybody listened. Not all of us bought the snake oil. I believe this was 1993. He spent a few years grooving that in on the staff and public so that it became normal to re-do completed Bridge actions. Reminds me of Hitler’s Nazi plan — they came into a country and slowly introduced a little at a time…one little ‘law’ here…one little ‘law’ there, then a little more…a little more….

    But anyway, just to let you all know, I’m a trained auditor, I’m OT VIII and I’m alive and doing very well. I have other OT VIII friends that are also very alive and doing great. I thought I would say this to show you that all the OT VIII’s didn’t go under. I LOVE LIFE!!

  400. Expelled 4 Life

    I haven’t read through all 400 comments so pardon me if this has already been mentioned. There’s an old “J & D” joke that I always thought contained a bit of truth. It goes something like this: Three Scientologists are seated in a restaurant. They’ve been waiting for some time for their waitress to appear. One of them, a new Scientologist, says, “I’ll use my TR 0 to get her to come over.” He does his best blinkless TR 0 but no waitress appears. The second Scientologist, recently attested to Clear, says, “You’ve got it all wrong. I’ll postulate her to come over.” He gives it his best shot. Still no waitress. The third Scientologist, an OT, rolls his eyes and says, “Let me show you how’s it done. With a twinkle in his eyes and a smile on his face he shouts, “Waitress!” The waitress “magically”appears.

    IMHO when you get things done with a spirit of play and ARC you are OT. And those around you will surely agree,

  401. Michael,
    Proof is by agreement – yes and no. You and I with a similar reality can come to agreement. Proof, as in the challenge to prove OT abilities is not by agreement (least not our agreement). It is compared to a previous fixed idea and therefore never logical. It merely fits the pre-set paradigm.

    MEST devices can only measure something MEST which has already been thought of. Sort of like a computer can only “think” according to what the programming previously thought of.

    Theta being senior to MEST will never been demonstrated or proven by MEST. I believe LRH understood this and didn’t try to demonstrate OT. He did tell us not to knock off hats at a distance. I think the controllers get nervous when they realize they can’t control us as an OT.

    All body perceptics and MEST measurements are a via. We can just perceive and know – no comm lag and no time involved. Now if we could just wake the masses up to the fact that they have inherent theta perceptics far more valuable than anything they could find on this planet – then we can really get to playing some games. This game is for randomity. That’s ok – but I am all for some newer type of randomity.

  402. This is NOT the only filmed interview with LRH, as claimed in the preamble to this video: “..This man is L. Ron Hubbard, and what you are about to see is his only filmed interview.”

  403. Marty

    Yes, that is a key factor.

    I also tend to consider that “one finds what one is looking for”.

    We have each arrived at this point in our individual development, based on experience, acquisition of data, free theta, what Ron calls “theta endowment”, dynamic (thrust toward survival), use of ARC, etc. I fully believe that we are, each, fully capable of absolutely anything we can conceive of. Matter of fact, if you can conceive of it, you are already operating from a “Q” above that level.

    Definition of “Q” (in part): it is the level from which we are now viewing which is the common denominator to all experience which we can now view. The highest level from which we are operating. (PDC 6)

    I would be so bold as to say that, much of the “magnitude” and nature of one’s wins ( tech delivery not withstanding) are attributable to one’s individual “Q”. ( and perhaps, per Act One, likely the “Q” of the auditor to some degree.) The results of auditing are produced by a “team” made up of an auditor and a PC. Both will inevitably have a bearing on the results.

  404. Lynne,
    Grade chart as of 1970 (removed a few years later from the printing) reference. OT VI “Ability to operate freely as a thetan exterior and to act pan-determinedly, extends the influence of the thetan to the universe of others.”

    And that, my dear, is the type of OT not be allowed in the current CoM. Pan-determined action is a NO-NO and you well know gets your hand slapped. If that doesn’t stop you then you get your face smacked with some SRA, inval, eval, false data and anchor points shoved up the bleep.

    Lucky for us, here we get to just BE. I know you fully understand that freedom and that OT ability. Add that to what you already had and instant booster upscale. Just a bit sad at times to see that other train wreck still falling over the cliff. I assume they just need a bit more reality on the black vortex they are swimming toward.

    LRH gave us so much. Most don’t even know what we already have and just need to duplicate and apply. No matter how much I study and do, I realize there is so much more. Step onto the road to OT and one never gets tired of the journey. Carry on in the great NW and we shall chat somewhere down the line.

  405. WW,
    The name – tis for the reason you want to travel oh so lightly upon the whispy theta winds of the universes. Unattached to the heavier MESTy stuff and free to flit about. I enjoy the time we travel along in the same group here on the blog. Hell, if I didn’t know I wasn’t a meat body I wouldn’t be able to enjoy the journey, see, think, remember and create.

    There have been “easier times” and I think in the future, once we handle this current minor ankle biting pack of psycho dogs, we can regain the ability and willingness to create “easier times” again. Enjoy your ring-side seat my friend.

  406. I had to laugh at your verbal word picture. Made me think of an assessment to clean up any BPC.

    As to the “unmistakeable simplicity of beingness” I think you will smile when the future again gives you the chance to enjoy it with a like minded group of free beings. The current dark age will pass and the sunshine will shine brightly.

    Another tidbit for you. In the 70’s at the AO were these large paintings (I have forgotten who was the artist). One was maybe 6-8 feet tall. A giant egg shaped space ship sitting on the landing legs. There was a small train of box cars pulling up under the belly of the vessel. Little tiny men on the ground. A really neat painting. The title was “Loading PC folders”. Thoughts were definitely lighter around the AO in those days.

  407. Friend of Ron


    Yes, OT=CAUSE, as in improving conditions along all dynamics.

    The beings are the CAUSE, Scientology only gives you the tools to be more CAUSE. It is up to us beings to use them.

    There are a number here on this blog who have what it takes to eventually become another King or Ghandi. Using the tools Ron gave us speeds up that process. That is all. The rest is up to us.

    And yes again: “The CoS is clearly not interested in rising to the challenge but the independents could”. As Laura Wilson so aptly put it: “The Church left us, we did not leave the Church” and so you are right, it is here in the Indie Filed that it can and will happen as here is where standard Scientology is promoted, practiced and applied.

  408. Yvonne Schick

    My computer says that we are at 398 comments. Is that a record high? Seems this topic generates a LOT of interest. This delights me.

    Confession: I felt my life and dynamics were in pretty good shape when I came into Scientology. It was already real to me that I was a spirit, lived more than one life, and that my present abilities or reactions could be affected by my whole track past. I saw Scn as the tool to help me be again the spirit that I once was – free and able to use all of my potential. Yeah, I wanted “OT abilities”. And I didn’t want those abilities just so I could put millions in the cash drawer or win the beauty contest. I wanted to help others with my presence alone (I’m a lazy thetan), to bring harmony to situations without effort, and to make the lives of others pleasurable to them thus making my own life more pleasurable as well.

    Interesting thing, in the short time since I left the CofS, I am experiencing more of this. Postulates are manifesting in the physical universe with much less effort. People around me seem happier. There is much less effort involved to help others.

    Makes me so very happy to be connected with all of you and I wish for all of you much happiness.

  409. Tom

    Totally wonderful… Thanks for that.

    You said: “But I did make the concious decision to “come back” , as a it was a ‘no-game’ condition; and b) I wanted others to “have the same experience”. And I had total reality on Axiom 1.

    On that. I have been reading Advanced Procedures and Axioms, by LRH, and he says that “native State” or “tone 40” are not necessarily the optimum spot on the scale to “play the game ” of life. Moving either way from there is playing the game less. Below 20 is going more and more into agreement with MEST until you take on all the characteristics of MEST, and above that is withdrawing more and more from MEST until you no longer have much reality on it.

    But to achieve “Native State”. Now THAT is some kind of OT all right!” Native State” I figure, is pretty close to Factor #2 or perhaps even #1. Imagine what the world would be like if every being had recently viewed the universe from that viewpoint….. and then come back to PLAY!

    Ahhhhh…. The FUN that we could have….

    Well… we’re working on it! And I find that Scientology is a fine tool to this end.


  410. Agreed, Marty, that was a slimy remark by “Charles Drum”.

    A Russian couple in the Freezone pointed me towards something interesting. They said that LRH worked decades on Dianetics and Scientology before the DMSMH was published. It is much older than 195o. In that video LRH says he worked on Scientology and Dianetics since 1930 or even earlier. The Russian couple think that Nordenholz stole from LRH. Many Russians speak German. They read the Scientologie book and told me that it is not good and nothing in it about auditing and making a person more able.

    Drum’s argument also reminds me to the law suit against J.K. Rowlings, the Harry Potter author. A woman sued her and said that Rowling stole the names Harry Potter, and some other names from her book. The judge dismissed it.

  411. I agree, Cindy. I always found it very validating to learn of other schools and to discover they were often on a similar track to LRH and Scientology.

    Scientology philosophy is not actually a “strange fringe cult”, but very much in the mainstream of the world’s wisdom traditions going back thousands of years.

    It has been a long process of people studying life and recording what they found and building on the theories and discoveries of those who went before, and it has been a progress towards greater and greater understanding of life.

    LRH advanced the field a great deal, modernized it and put it into a form more people could understand and use than anyone has in a longtime!

  412. It’s kind of misleading for newbies.

  413. I’m sorry, I didn’t mean to sound like I’m whining. I have a lot of people in my environment that don’t ack me at all. I do a lot of nice things for them, and they almost never say anything, almost never a thank-you. I have been mis-emotional on this subject. Over-sensitive, (very rare for me). I get acknowledged here more than anywhere else. My apologies. It was just really nice to have you participate more, Marty. I know you are probably the busiest man on the planet, next to Obama, and sometimes I just want to jump in the car and drive to Corpus and be your communicator. (Did that for an ED at Austin many years ago, and her stats went into Affluence/Power and she got awarded the OEC/FEBC on the Flagship Apollo, while LRH was still there.) I know you could use some help; it is amazing what all you do.
    Have my own past transgressions on not acknowledging others, of course. Anyway, this post is great, (OT Abilities), as is evident by the number of answers! Keep em coming!

  414. From Russell Salamon’s
    Fire song bright day
    free and young the sky.

    I have been laughing in wind
    speaking from the sea.

    Flight of immortal dawn
    breaks from my eyes.

  415. Thanks, Lynne, see comment above. I love your comments, too. Sometimes I do that, start acknowledging everybody, and then, I think “Goodness, I’m hoggin the blog!” I guess it’s a balancing act, just like the dynamics! Thank God, we have this blog, so that we can, as a group, be in comm.

  416. I haven’t seen any extraordinary claims here on this blog, have you?

    Nobody here but us OTs…. Move along folks, there’s nothing to see here….

  417. I am so late on this – as usual. But I have a story.

    A staff member at GOLD once shared an LRH story with me. She was a cook when LRH was in working with CINE and she was responsible for feeding some 300 people at the Base.

    One evening, she spotted LRH outside of the mess hall. She had just finished serving everyone and she stepped out to tell him how excited she was about the recent ADVANCE! magazine and all those great OT abilities successes that she just read. She told LRH that she looked forward to being able to do those things and enjoy her state as an OT.

    LRH looked at her and chuckled, and as he grinned he said,”You know what I think is OT? I think the fact that you serve 300 people 3 meals a day on time is OT. ”

    That sort of brought it on home to me.

    I did up to original OT 7. My wins were very real and very “out there” and I loved and marveled at my regained abilities, but I also never felt more grounded and certain about myself. I have levitated objects and things like that. I come from a family that is predisposed to clairvoyance and clairsentience. I consider these interesting and fun things to do and good and useful when you help another spirit that is distressed or in need of help. But what I prize most and value most is: how did I make life better today? Did I put order into the environment? Did I make others feel valued? Did I contribute in some way to the betterment of my environment, those around me, my friends, family, community, society? That is where my head is at. I achieved these abilities through application of Scientology. Others achieved these abilities through other paths, and that is just as worthy. There are many venues for many beings and I embrace anything that truly strives to help make people better.

    When I was younger (all of 12 yrs old), I was a very talented violinist. I remember how my parents would prop me up in front of the room and make me play for everyone. They were not being mean, they were obviously proud. But I hated it. I felt there was something denigrating and insulting to be put on the stage to show off what you could do. I didn’t think I was a circus act. I still don’t consider myself a circus act. And I feel a bit sad when others measure such states against these, as opposed to more meaningful criteria.

  418. I doubt anything that you write, Revenimus.

  419. “M” Rundown…..

    I get it 🙂

    Pick up your 45 ACP after the exam so you can do the final step of this totally fabulous and fantastic Rundown!!!!!

    After signing over any money or worldly possession you may have over to the Human Ecology Fund a US Tax Exempt organization on behalf of David Miscavige.

  420. SF what is your problem? Hundred thousands of Scientologists say that LRH knew how to do it. We studied it, you don’t.

  421. Oh did I forget to mention that the final step is done solo and altho like the Sunshine Rundown doesn’t require a meter it is highly recommended that you purchase the incredible new Mk Ultra meter which was designed specifically for this incredible rundown!

  422. I believe the lay term for case (Scientology nomenclature for the whole sum of an individual’s harmful/negative charge) is –> “baggage.” What human cannot relate to having “baggage” ? Or “packing way too much for the trip” for that matter 😉

    When asking for “proof” of OT, there are two kinds of proof: One is subjective proof. An individual’s integrity to know, when rooted in observable results, is tantamount to “proof.” The second type of proof is objective proof, that which can be empirically demonstrated, or in the scientific criteria of observable results…are “repeatable”. The key there is what results is one looking for?

    Are people judging capable of experiencing the numinous aspects of their own lives? Or are they demanding ‘proof’ based on a comic book superhero stereotype? (I”ll know I am a god when I can knock someone’s hat off from a distance…”) <—hmmm…like Q, will that person stay a god for long 🙂

    In my opinion, OT is a nomenclature for a very natural state of affairs of Life (& people) when unhampered, and part of that is wisdom /respeec/love — in other words, acting for the benefit of all Life. That's a natural state. I could list pages of both types of "proof", subjective and objective, of the state of Operating Life (Theta), and observable Cause/Effect.

    My personal experience with Scientology is a system that comprehensively and effectively charts and addresses the relationship of Thought to Physics. The more OT, the more Life … the less OT, more baggage (additive interference). That said, I've been aware of "OT phenomena" even prior to learning the a nomenclature for it described by Scientology.

    Flowers in the spring don't wear superman capes when blooming.

  423. Thank you, it’s good to be loved back.

  424. p.s. I see where I may have inadvertently created a vacuum while off in the fast lane…! Thank you for not allowing that to sunder the theta connection, which is not absent ever.

  425. 398 comments in 24 hours….

    hot topic.

  426. Karen, Thanks so much and glad to be of service. To me, there’s no greater privilege than helping others understand what OT is.

  427. “Not popular with the clergy of the day” is rather an understatement. You try spending the latter part of your life held under house arrest for heresy some time.

    Damn, I thought I’d gotten off all the BPC on that.

  428. That IS OT, with the kids that is!

    Great story Lynne.

  429. Wonder if they still do meter drills that way? I passed that test as well.

  430. Lady Minn,
    I’ve long felt that posting on blogs is often like doing that E-meter drill on producing dirty needles. Just shows how important acknowledgment is to an individual.
    Oh well, like marriage, you take the good with the bad.
    Just so you know, I’ve always liked and respected the way you think. You’re a good ‘un.


  431. Lynne,

    I seem to be able to impress almost anybody but my kids. They think I’m an absolute moron.


  432. theo Sismanides

    Been in the SO for 10 years and had to follow and live under/with the discipline of the SO. Studied a lot of Scientology and though I didn’t receive too much auditing, just wordclearing, intention and study together with being in the SO gave me such space that I couldn’t make it but go exterior in many cases. Though not with full perception I now know when I am and when I am NOT. Meaning when I “am” the body and when I AM. Many times I have experienced this phenomenon of a “crack” somewhere above me and then immediately my space opens up and things brighten up. I have experienced that in wordclearing, in some auditing in Self auditing which I did and very successfully though I don’t recommend it but I could do it from time to time and all of a sudden like the other day when I was in a super market and suddenly heard that “crack” and everything brightened up.

    Someone can say this is all good and crazy and proves nothing. I don’t need to prove anything. I know this is a good feeling. I went home happy from the supermarket. People instead of doubting should spend time for themselves and others. Scientology is a good, workable way to do that. We now are making it free again so more can have it.

  433. martyrathbun09

    That smokes.

  434. theo Sismanides

    Sherb, I am both happy and proud that I am here with all the good people who don’t want to perform tricks but understand life better and get on with what they want to achieve.

    Your comment here makes so much sense and gives a great perspective. Very wise post indeed. I am happy there are such people like you here. We make a hell of a group. We can become a team around the globe that now meets so many difficulties. Japan is under threat and the “leaders” of this world, illiterate in anything spiritual just bomb Libya instead of dropping food to Japan where thousands have problems with good food, etc.

    I am proud to be an Independent and that I can express my views without censorship so that other group members here can see and ponder upon.

    The war in Libya today is a big OUTPOINT when Japan is struggling to avert a big nuclear crisis. A big Outpoint on the part of the “leaders”.

  435. martyrathbun09

    I can attest that you demonstrate those capabilities quite nicely.

  436. splog,

    Reading what you wrote reminded me how easily we overlook the obvious. All this focus on being super beings. Some of the greatest wins I had in Scientology came from doing the Objectives. Theta in direct control of MEST: awareness and attention and intention applied to moving the body.

    People doing yoga often get what’s called a “yoga high.” You’re just so “there” and calm and aware of how theta interacts with the body and CAUSES change to occur. The start-change-stop of control. Awareness applied. Tai Chi produces something similar.

    There’s such a beauty and satisfaction in the simple act of dancing or singing or kissing or touching that I wonder at the desperate need for more.

    The enjoyment of life comes not from what is perceived, but how we perceive it.


  437. martyrathbun09

    The only complete one.

  438. martyrathbun09

    Thanks Kathy. I am adding this on to the post on OT VIII of a few days ago.

  439. freespirit, that was wonderful. Loved it

  440. Jim,

    Do you really expect me to duplicate what you’re saying?!!! Christ! Your fucking standards for communication are really weird. The way it works is: person A originates a communication that floats randomly in space. Person B contacts that communication which stimulates pre-programmed ideas contained in his various circuits. Those circuits begin playing randomly in space and time to stimulate other ideas contained in circuits.
    Life, you dumb shit, is pure accident. There is no cause, no intention, no plan. Nor is there awareness. Especially not awareness that exists independent of the body.
    So, there is no cause, intention or plan to any communication.
    Can’t you understand a fucking thing?
    But wait, understanding would require duplication.
    Shit, thinking is hard. I’m getting a headache.
    I’ve got to go take a crap.


    Did Starkey really start a naturist camp for birders? But who cares? Stark naked is good.

  441. Valkov

    Ah Valkov, you tempt me…

    Oh hell, here it goes….

    The Dream

    To rise up
    from the slime and muck
    and dance upon a breeze.
    To glow so bright
    you light the night,
    and know you are free!


  442. Jim,

    Think tar baby.
    I know the technical explanations for what occurred, but actually witnessing it in action is fascinating. Just to watch how theta becomes entrapped in these circuits and dramatizations and is able, not only to replay them, but to seem plausibly logical.
    It’s a study in why human thought didn’t advance as it should: trapped attention that couldn’t perceive beyond established limit. The inability to recognize relative importance, fixating on the trivial.
    Very curious stuff.


  443. Nordenholz has written his own work called Scientologie. To think he stole from LRH is insane.

    He came up with the name first covering a different subjectmatter that’s all

    Scientology, Science of the Constitution and Usefulness of Knowledge

  444. Yvonne Schick

    Thank you for the validation. You are an inspiration to me.

    Hugs and kisses.

  445. martyrathbun09

    Hee, hee

  446. Sapere Aude

    ‘Tis so. ‘Tis so.
    Thank you.


  447. Bryon Eckert

    I showed up, I left. Under different circumstances, I would have liked to get to know AnonOrange a little better. Unfortunately, I discovered that it is violates my sense of personal integrity to attend any int management event, whether on the inside or the outside. Thank God I was free to leave early and not be forced like the people in the black suits and dresses, listening to the meaningless harangue of a small man standing in front of ridiculous foam pillars, booming loudspeakers and overwhelming lasers. Oh yes, and max out the credit cards again. To be brutally honest, protesting this implant session just makes it more solid and does not lead in the direction of freedom for either side.

  448. Laura, I don’t care what we call things like this. They are the point to life.
    Just Me

  449. Michael, what great stories and abilities. Very fun to hear.

  450. I can pee really fast. With great consistency. And accuracy. On demand.
    Just Me

  451. I am amazed that Scientologists who have had not only sufficient knowledge of the Tech, read the books, had the auditing could still think that if one expresses any OT phenomena experience then they are “nuts” and or type 3. Well, there is one thing I know for sure and that is: 1/I am a thetan and not a body 2/ thetans comm telepathically (how else) 3/ if you see something move that is a material object and there is no wind, or any physical means that could have done it then just maybe you witnessed OT phenomena. But basically, this is how we are suppose to operate. Why is this a subject of such doubt???? First of all it’s all in HOM, why believe in Scn, do auditing and then denie that OT exists? What were you in it for??
    Not only that but to me it just means you are finally just getting back to normal op. OT exists whether others think so or not. OT exists enough to alter weather (significantly so). OT exits enough to heal someone or conversely make someone ill (mock ’em up with cancer) and guess what it works (unless you disagree and are aware of the original mockup attempt).
    What about those with the ability that have a load of FPRD material unhandled? Well, sadly to my bursted bubble, they can still “use” their abilities but destructively and even to enslave and that is the saddest of all things I have witnessed yet.

  452. I pretty much said my peace on this topic over on Jeff’s blog.

    After seeing all the responses here, at Jeff’s and Steve’s though, it occurred to me that a righteous AMEN is in order.

    So I say Amen to all the you.

    The story’s and testimonies recounted on this topic also bring to mind the word grace. That’s what these discussions have displayed to me.
    Something science cannot measure.

  453. 🙂 I got that.

  454. Try again on the Beethoven excerpt…it didn’t seem to “take.”

  455. Yeah, I hear you. Resorting to expensive force when people need basic assistance just to overcome a calamity defies so much survival it makes the head spin. I no longer call Politicians ‘leaders’ but prefer ‘those in charge’. Responsibility is such a tough concept for some.
    Hey, nice to meet you too. I realised the other day just what a rare group of beings make up this group as you call it. I’ve never had too much of a problem understanding LRH – it does take some persistence at times though but apparently very few of us actually do – I scratch my head on that one too.
    I like you want to be free.

  456. Yes. Tone 20 is “optimum. One thing Tone 40 “made real” to me was the difference between “desire” and “intention”. Desire carries with it the connotation of “wanting to be effect” Intention is simply “cause” with no further wanted outcome.

    Louis Armstrong For The Win:

  457. (Leonore, the youtube imbed has changed. Now click the “share” button and just copy and paste what is there. That will usually play the video here. The former imbed procedure hasn’t worked for a couple weeks. SA)

  458. Loved the story Free Spirit!

    Hey if any of you want to have some fun with Remote Viewing pick up a copy of “Creation of Human Ability” and run R1-9 known also as the Grand Tour.

    We used to do it all the time when I first got into Scientology.

    Probably the most fun anyone could have with their clothes on.

    Anyway give it a shot.

    Int auditors will be standing by 😉

  459. Marty,

    I’ve bouncing between yours and Jeff’s blog and I’ve gotta say the number of comments on both blogs are astronomical indicating that there is a lot of interest in OT and psychic phenomena.

    Compare that to Church’s current “mainstream” position which is something like you can get a better job with Scientology or make more money so you can give it to the IAS or Ideal Orgs or whatever…

    (yeah that really gets your theta juices flowing!

    Really makes you want to rush in there and do one of their “Life Improvement Courses” compiled by Botwo the Squirrel….


    Don’t it?)

    Anyway I’m so happy to be a part of all this.



  460. This evening I had the pleasure of having dinner with a very dear friend . She was very disturbed about her grandson. My friend just did not know how to tackle this very delicate situation. I listened while she talked (3 hours) acked her, all the while being very interested in everthing she said. At the end she originated how the tiredness connected with the cycle was gone and she saw a solution. This person is not a Scientologist.

    It is amazing how easily one can help another person by just listening and truly caring. That to me is being OT. Oh yes I, as a result of this experienced tremendous happiness – win win.

  461. Thanks SA,…again! Yes, I did follow your previous instant hatting. Ahh, with a little help from my friends… 🙂

  462. Once Upon a Time

    I had an experience wherein I was “sharing” a mind with another being. I could tell that the mind that I was using was totally accessible to the other being. When “he” thought a thought, I knew exactly what it was because it was happening in the mind that I was using. It worked both ways. At one point I was about to tell him how incredible this was, and when I looked over at him I realized that that was exactly the thought he was having too, at that same moment. No time or distance in the comm cycle. We had both created it together.

    It struck me, at that time, that I had experienced something similar before. ( even though I had not gotten into Scientology, I realized that it was in a time way before this life) I named the concept a “brotherhood”. We were a bunch of beings sharing a mind totally. There was nothing any viewpoint experienced that was not immediately known by the whole “brotherhood”. This went along fine until, one day, one of the “brotherhood” withheld a thought. The whole thing collapsed almost immediately because this one withhold lead to other beings not feeling safe with sharing totally, when it was not reciprocated by all.

    But only we beings that were involved, actually know that it actually happened. It is enough for me!


  463. @Anonorange: I am of two minds about the need for physical universe “proof” for spiritual universe phenomena.
    For example: Years ago, I desired to put together a project to establish two-way language-based communication with free bottlenose dolphins in the wild (use of captive dolphins for this purpose was never even considered because of the vast potential for abuse, should I have been successful). I had a web site posted about this and various persons contacted me from time to time… two of them claiming to have communication lines with dolphin spirits and one of those claimed to have a message for me.

    Well I told these persons that I did not doubt their claims, but nevertheless, to be useful to me and my project, I needed the person(s) to come down to Sea World in San Diego to a feeding/petting pool where dolphin were allowed to interact with the public. I said that I would present the claimant with a list of 10 high unusual specific actions I needed to see dolphins in that pool perform and if any 5 of those things occured, the person was on board with my project.

    Ahhh!!! The acrimony!! The accusations!!

    I wasn’t trying to “make them wrong”… I needed that level of demonstrated ability in order to establish contact with a suitable group of dolphins and explain to them what I was trying to do.

    Alas, no takers after that.

    Michael A. Hobson

  464. Spot on, KB. Thank you.

  465. WW,
    Now that’s what I am talking about. I just realized how starved for 4th dynamic higher consciousness 2WC I have been all my lifetime. That story was nourishment, succor, satiating honey and nectar from the vine of pure being. I knew I was drawn to being an independent Scientologist for a reason. Because I was not getting such nourishment from the corporate version, it was only inevitable that I am here with you all, were I find it.

    Thank you for that. I had a great cog.

  466. Dear Scott,

    We were on the Freewinds together, buddy!
    Good to hear again from you! Send my regards to your wife, Karry.


  467. 40 Yr Scientologist

    Very Well Done. That is being OT to me, too. And isn’t it interesting that you’re own good feeling came AFTER understanding that your friend was in a better place, thanks to your help.

  468. yeah, so long as attention is unfixed 🙂

  469. I consider myself to be a grateful ‘guinea pig’ with regards to Abilities regained. Overall, the context I keep regarding the whole OT scene hearkens back to LRH’s references to the dwindling spiral of us thetans. As I recall there just wasn’t many (if any) naturally occurring OT’s left by the end of the 19th century or early 20th.

    Let me point out that the Tone Scale in Full is a monumental work. The chart lays out what we achieve in auditing, i.e., get the being back up to being capable of experiencing the scale. The whole scale, all the way to the top. And when you get to the top, isn’t that describing OT? As an aside anything that thwarts that is merely and ultimately a consideration, isn’t it?

    Marty, thanks for this discussion. It sure seems to have stimulated quite a few comments- the theta hot button.


  470. Well, above all else, I have “gained” the “ability” to be, to confront, to communicate more effectively – more than I had ever imagined possible. I don’t give a tiny rats ass whether that can be proven in a lab; one only has to ask the family members, friends, friends of friends and co-workers who WERE THERE and OBSERVED how I went from a severely depressed, shy, suicidal wreck, to a very happy, productive and successful individual. Heck, I had people coming up to me asking what was going on! Hehe. Sure, it’s a cliché for some, but this is certainly not some cheesy, exaggerated “success story” for a glossy CoS PR mag. This happened. There were witnesses to it (all non-Scns).

    This, to me, is but one example of an “OT ability” gained.

    Where was I on The Bridge?

    I wasn’t. This occurred after completing the STCC and whilst on the HQS. 🙂

  471. “Here’s a question: What is doing the work?”

    Vis-a-vis the matter, it is whatever is accelerating it to the speed of light.

    Pretty simple. Although the whole idea that matter can’t go faster than the speed of light is a bizarre theory that is easily falsified.

  472. Michael,
    I was finding curious the difference in the flow of logic. One stuck point and a whole lotta solidity accrued. Time didn’t shift.

    Since we’re on the subject, OT that is, one of the freedoms is from the ‘obligations’ of the time stream-as-time-track, i.e, facsimiles of the flow of ‘logical progression’ of time. Just because something happened yesterday is no ‘reason’ to agree that today is ‘determined’ (other-dtermined).

  473. Yvonne: Thanks for the recommendation – “A Walk in the Woods” by Bill Bryson. Bought it at Borders yesterday and spent way way too long last night reading it. I laughed, I giggled. I just completely enjoyed myself.

    The day before you mentioned that book my step-daughter was telling her dad and me about the audio book by someone that had her mother and her laughing during their long drive to see her grandmother. The name escaped me.

    THEN – when I mentioned Marty’s blog and this book – A Walk in the Woods and how when checking it out it was about the area we live in — she said — THAT’s the author I was telling you both about yesterday.

    Pretty OT of you Yvonne — traveling across space from Texas to the east coast, posting just THAT book of Bryson’s (he’s got LOTS) …

    Just how did you DO that? I want docs!! (just kidding)


  474. martyrathbun09

    Micheal, is there a site where I might get some your actions/results? I comm with dophins in our bay here from time to time, but I’m pretty hit-and-miss with connecting.

  475. Veritus,

    Yeah, you certainly were missed, babes. What insights you have. Life around here without you is like a flower missing a petal: still beautiful, but just not what it could be.


    ps. I didn’t think a “chili without beans” analogy worked. Too crude.
    Here I am, a semi-literate bumpkin, hair slicked back against its will, dressed in my only clean shirt, awkwardly trying to think of something to say, staring at the blank page, starting to panic. So… Uh, uh, uh. You get the picture, gol’ dang it!

  476. Sapere Aude,

    Had to read your comment twice; misunderstood it first time.
    Yeah, pretty much agree to that.

    I think “proof” covers a wide range of expectation. What serves as proof to one person won’t to another.

    Interesting how the most essential part of proof–the observer–so often gets left out of the equation. As if a datum or experience can exist without the knower or observer. As if the datum or experience is somehow an independent factor.

    But the considerations and computations and meanings of the observer are as critical as the datum or experience in determining “truth” and “proof.”

    Both “truth” and “proof” are assigned meanings that are really not inherent in the condition or creation–normally.

    Of course, someone can create a condition fraught with considerations of “truth,” “reality,” “proof.” But that is generally consequent to someone trying to unmock them or their creation or their ideas.

    And as Korzybski noted, “home” really has a different meaning to each person because of his/her experience with where they reside. Some words open us to a greater range of personal definition, which leads to all sorts of quibbling over meaning.

    I think that by reverse engineering this overall discussion, we could probably conclude that this is the case with the word “proof,” something I wouldn’t have expected initially.

  477. Windwalker,

    Thanks for this. It opened up a whole new vista of “minds.” I had glibly accepted the concept of third dynamic bank and third dynamic agreement, but I had never explored the concepts of mutually created minds. Reading this was a head smacking moment. It made so much sense and explained so much.

    Maybe now I can think enough to burn off the Krispy Kreme doughnuts my son brought home. Damn him! He just got his driver’s license and has somehow decided his life is his to live. I have somehow failed to get him to understand that all of his thoughts should only be the ones I’ve given him. He must learn that his mind is really only a tiny offshoot of mine, completely under my control. How else will he ever be successful? He must BE his father and use only his father’s thoughts…

    Oh, wait, that didn’t work for me either.

    Damn, these doughnuts are good.

    Yeah, I’ve got another notch in my belt.

    Alright, he can have the keys again.

  478. Thanks for that story, WW. Very interesting. 🙂

  479. Michael (if that’s your real name),
    Yes, Starkey naked IS good. (And he is left-handed which is part and parcel of the flavor in his grooves that is oh so Ringo.)

    Just so you can get a grip, (since apparently yours is loosening) on ‘reality’, these circuits you refer to are NOT random. They are carefully planned, agreed to, AGREED TO, A*G*R*EEEEEE*****D* TO****! and if you think (an important aspect of this) you can up and change either your locked down, sewn up, stitched in fixied (sic) patterned response to exactly what has been determined just by, by, by, changing your considerations about all this well, you’re in for a big fat surprize maybe.

    You stink. AND you stink.

    Jim ( not my real name).

  480. Bruce,

    I think the critical element comes under invalidation and not accepting a communication/reality. The end result is a reversed vector. Causes an ARC break to that degree.

    I mean, what a breach of the auditor’s code, which exists for a reason and applies to more than just a session. If the church started demanding proof, then the auditing would go by the wayside. So, Ron really couldn’t start a strict program “validating” outcomes without invalidating the pc’s data.

    Affinity, reality and communication comprise understanding. So what happens to understanding when the vectors of any of those three (four) are reversed? And what is proof other than the tail end of ARC?

    (You also get into overrun phenomenon when you persist in demanding a “proof.” )

  481. Absolutes are unobtainable, moron.

  482. Yvonne Schick

    Thank you, Centurion. You just helped me to see this is exactly true for me as well.

  483. Joe,

    This stuff on Beethoven got me thinking about ability and talent. Beethoven certainly was OT in the demonstration of his talent, but very few of us have or will every have his musical ability or talent. Each of us differs in intelligence, power and talent. Consequently, we should never compare ourselves to others as an assessment of whether we have reached “OT.”

    These comparisons tend to invalidate gains and end phenomenon: “I must not be OT: I tried to win the Tour De France but because I’ve never ridden a bicycle before I couldn’t keep up with my kid, much less Lance Armstrong.”
    “I must not be OT: I tried to paint a portrait of my wife and it looked ridiculous.”
    I have no doubts that LRH was OT, but I was never impressed with either his photography or his music, even though he had a great interest in both. In my opinion, he had mid-level talent in both fields. Writing was another story–no pun intended.
    A thetan’s talents and interests become manifest fairly quickly and easily. But great talent doesn’t always follow great interest.
    Just a thought.


  484. After reading story after story I have finally came to a conclusion of what an OT can really do and really cannot do.

    Demonstrate an ability in the MEST Universe that only or all OTs can do that common people cannot do except for random physical abilities like spinning a basketball, farting, peeing really fast, never losing at hot hands, making cheeseburgers disappear, and other things listed by OTs and non-OTs above.

    An OT is someone who produces an on-going CERTAINTY they OT and have livid. supernatural OT EXPERIENCES (not ABILITIES as defined by Jeff Hawkins) and they experience more than enough of these experiences in their personal reality to support that certainty. But these experiences cannot be measured or demonstrated to be actual abilities because that spoils the game. (Thoughtful told me about “game spoiling” when he graciously invited me into his home.)

    Either this is a bunch of humans stuck in circular logic, or it is a bunch of humans with super abilities that they cannot demonstrate but can deeply experience or something else entirely.

    I certainly do not wish to invalidate livid OT experiences. I personally think it’s the imaginary experiences in our heads that mean the most in our life.

    A life full of meaning is a wonderful thing. I hope everyone who can enjoy the feeling of “OT certainty” enjoys the ability to create the experience of feeling godlike.

    Because if one could walk on water, stop a Tsunami with a blink, or do fantastic acts of leadership and NOT FEEL GODLIKE … well …

    That would SO SO SO suck!

    If one had a choice of being able to actually STOP a Tsunami but NOT feel god like at all verses having the ability to KNOW I can stop a Tsunami but not save Japan, I think many would prefer the latter. Why?

    Because we are beings of story. Masters of myth. It’s what we do. It’s what gives us meaning.

  485. Just Me,

    Yeah, but can you write your name in the snow?

    In script? Without pause?

    Now that’d really be a golden demonstration.


  486. Yvonne Schick

    Seems we OTs just connect, don’t we. ; ) Glad you enjoyed the Bryson.

  487. Sheesh. Let’s try those two points again:

    Demonstrate an ability in the MEST Universe that only or all OTs can do that common people cannot do except for random physical abilities like spinning a basketball, farting, peeing really fast, never losing at hot hands, making cheeseburgers disappear, and other things listed by OTs and non-OTs above.

    Demonstrate an ability in the MEST Universe that only OTs can perform and that common people CANNOT perform except for random physical superiorities like spinning a basketball, farting, peeing really fast, never losing at hot hands, making cheeseburgers disappear, and other things listed by OTs and non-OTs above.

    An OT is someone who produces an on-going CERTAINTY they are OT and that has supernatural OT EXPERIENCES (not ABILITIES as defined by Jeff Hawkins) and they experience more than enough of these experiences in their personal reality to support that certainty. But these experiences cannot be measured or demonstrated to be actual abilities because that spoils the game. (Thoughtful told me about “game spoiling” when he graciously invited me into his home.)

    K. Gotta go. Enjoy the OT life you all.

  488. Jim,

    Yeah, I know what you mean.

    Another point about this discussion involves the use of logic. We’e all so set on using logic about OT and proof of being OT. But what logic? We are so dependent on mathematical and linguistic logic: where one idea is completely dependent on another, like links in a chain.

    But that kind of logic operates at effect of conditions. In that logic conditions determine what one can use as cause and effect. Conditions determine sequences. Conditions determine what can be perceived and agreed upon.

    But, theta creates conditions. Theta is not dependent on conditions, nor the logic fostered by a created condition.

    Logic determined by a system is all well and good when running an organization dependent on MEST laws, but a thetan has to recognize that those conditions and sequences and cause/effect relationships don’t necessarily apply to him.

    Theta can assign any importance or meaning to any datum. Can place data in any sequence. Can invent data, twist time, reverse cause and effect.

    Theta is the master of logic, not the slave.

    LRH covered all this in ’52/’53, especially on the PDC.

    But, you watch some clown wielding “logic” like a club because he HAS to be right. He can’t go on another moment if he isn’t right. Logic becomes a huge ser fac rather than a tool for bringing order into a given universe.

    Which brings up a sort of pity based on the datum that when threatened with unmocking a thetan mocks up compulsively. Makes me wonder just what was threatened with unmocking when a tar baby won’t let you go unless he’s made you wrong.

    I know that a fair number of people go around compulsively mocking up “intelligence.” But what kind of intelligence is that when it functions at effect? Actual intelligence requires the ability to observe, analyze, evaluate, and arrange data. Further, intelligence requires the capacity to create and control data. In other words, to be in control of the data.

    How much control does one have of data when it’s fixated and compulsive?

    Ironically, the only thing that would help is the thing chosen for condemnation. It’s true that education is one of the useful therapies, but you can’t educate yourself out of the bank. Auditor plus pc is greater than the bank. Without an auditor there are some things that very few (if any) could confront and handle.

    You can meditate yourself exterior. And some individuals are naturally exterior. But, as soon as they begin to deal with bank, trouble ensues. Bye, bye exterior; hello enturbulated.

    Damn you, Jim. You got me thinking out loud again. And we all know that a hippopotamus loves eating rocks grown tomorrow yesterday in the third parallel planet of Mars when an apple and pear mate to breed worm spiders. That’s simple enough to understand. I won’t even will began some time in the other future past right now to describe what I really think.

    When I get around to thinking at all.


    I don’t even know why I bother talking to you, you bastard.


    ps: Apologies. Jim and I are just over here whispering in the corner. Don’t pay us any mind.

  489. I favor chapter 1 of William James’ 1902, “The Varieties of Religious Experience”:


    then scroll down to Chapter 1 and download it and listen to it for free.

    I think all of James’ “Varieties of Religious Experience” should be part of Volume 0 checksheet.

    Librivox has a huge amount of free audio readings of classic books which are downloadable for free.

  490. More than you know …

    We were once friends 🙂

    And it seems meet again.


  491. Sugar Plum Fairey


  492. Speaking of Heaven and Earth, I’vedone Aikido for about 5 years. We have a technique that is called Heaven and Earth throw (translated, of course).

    I’ve found that aikido is a pysical manifestation of “the tech” in that it brings your tone level up, does away with bank, you have life cognitions, and find yourself operating as “self” as opposed to the body. Very enjoyable. 🙂

  493. Michael,
    Ym thougths mezactry.
    I’m just now reading something that provides a clue as to ‘what to do, what to do’. Undercut.

    How far south, how many inversions, inverting to the point where left is right and right is all that matters? Hmmmm, that’s one I wrastle with.

    My present solution, under what I perceive as the circumstances (rather what I conclude with the perceptions so far) is expressed above as ‘NEXT’. Either next step on the undercut, or next being and with more free theta around even the MESTiest of MEST up will start to disentangle.

    It may fall under granting beingness to allow some thetan to dig deeper and deeper as they decide. All I can do for that being is see that the route remains and the signposts are there and postulate they’ll see one in the inky black.

    How inverted, confused, reverse-vectored, roiling and boiling in epurp as ‘solution’ to the lack of duplication of some point in the time stream that builds up and solidifies to MEST that they become as they fight, can it get?

    Bad. So bad, it is incomprehensible and any attempt with ARC ends in the level of ARC that is there, incomprehensible.

    The answer to the question, IS the question, if one follows the formula of complete duplication, so a being at higher levels can leave that puzzle knowing the simple answer to the question – those wrapped up are incomprehensible. No further significance to it.

    Still…my attention lingers – THIS time, THIS subject, is different and if they could only move on the time track the tiniest of moves, them the being that is, that solidity would crack, even the tiniest of cracks and so begin the eventual splitting of the valences and a recovered being.

    In the ESTO tapes it mentions the power of a positive postulate for the success of the staff member that an ESTablishment Officer should have. We do have that, I know. In the meantime, selecting something out for randomity, I guess we can toss these MESTies back and forth for some amusement. Ours, not so much theirs.

  494. Jim,

    Absolutely unattainable or just sort of unattainable?

  495. Oh David, the party’s just beginning. I’ve bet you’ve got more to say. And if you ack it all too thoroughly, dadgumit….

  496. To the Stark Raving Mad Lunatic formerly known as lunatic, sometimes known as “that’s not my name” or “I whip my hair back and forth.”

    God made me do it.

    Except there is no proof of God. Therefore, I’m an accident waiting to happen.

  497. Jim,

    Obviously, you don’t grasp interplanetary distribution of wizened vegetation as pertains to the philosophy of Smiley Two Feets who expostulated in his seminal work “Sunflowers Don’t grow on Trees when Yaks trespass at unattended intersections.” If you understood how semen flowed from ying to yang on a diasphorapasm of modicumular disfunctionality within the confines of contradictory experimentation that has produced virtually all that humanity holds dear when the teapot is half empty and half designed with a third of dispositional transition, you would, of course, if you truly understood what you were talking about be handing out fetal molecular correlations of extrapolation of chromial sporatism.

    It’s merely based on the application of Quorum Mechanics.


    I’ve tried to keep this simple enough, so that, someone who is as stupid as you are can grasp the perfection of my arguments and grow to worship me, because, after all who would have guessed that Dizzy Gillespie was actually Gabrielle come to trumpet my return.

    Should you have any other misconceptions that need clarifying, please, just spew them forth so I can correct them. Not that I trust you will grasp the perfection of my diarhetorical wisdom, but my mind is as the passing of the winds, so who cares what it smells like.

    Stink is in the nose of the beholder.

    Have a nice day. And I want to remind you of how happy I am. Blissfully happy. Meatiliciously happy.

    Yours truly,

  498. Hah!

    Good one 🙂

  499. Michael,
    My background is advanced trained in sciences. As one who has done the original OT levels to 7 I can assure you many things noted in science are not understood. Therefore you and I come to an agreement based on our ARC (understandings) and not based on some MEST (6th dynamic only) measurement which most refer to as “proof”.

    In science the “Observer Effect” is know to exist. Simply that ALL experiments and outcomes are affected and changed by the observer. Secondly it is known that ALL measurements change the outcome. Measure your temp with a mercury thermometer and some small amount of heat is taken from your body to warm the thermometer. Check the air pressure in your auto and you lose a small amount of air.

    From the axioms we know that WE create the points to view, change these, interact these so of course we would change things on our dynamics. To the uninformed this is “magic” or “unreal” but the real truth is that it just is that simple.

    The other fact I think must be included is that the LRH bridge has the OT levels. They increase one’s abilities as an OT. But, as we all arrive at the levels with different inherent abilities our outcomes will be different. The bridge before is to get rid of your baggage and clear your mind of stuff that is not really you. Then go up from there. Most of us call that negative gain. The real OT levels are all positive gain. What ability I end up with may be more or less than yours but it WILL be more than I had before (or at least more than I was aware of and really in control of).

    I have enjoyed this discussion and got a lot from the viewpoints, stories and communications of all here. Thanks!
    I think you will enjoy this clip.

  500. Bruce and Michael,
    When beings don’t know their own power they mess up. Any person requiring “proof” has already postulated that their action or observation may not be valid. That opens the door the wrong way.

    LRH – “Positive postulate, it’s not only that there is no negative given attention to, but it does not assume that any negative is possible.” Esto Tape 3.

    Demanding any “proof” is the postulate that the negative or lacking of truth/validity is possible. As was stated above – the vectors are reversed. A being should have the certainty of self to know their observations are valid. If they don’t have that I would suggest more lower bridge, de-PTSing and false data stripping. If that person trained and studied until what was true is what was true for them – then, they would not require “proof.”

    Unfortunately, most who understand this are already on this blog. Others will follow, read and wonder? Then some more sparks will fly and more will see the trap is only by their agreements and they can change these at will. And more moving on up a little higher. Later guys.

  501. Okay, here’s one for all of you that have done the OT sections. The one OT level that let’s you know that this stuff works, is OT II.

    When I first got onto OT II Theory, I read it and I secretly thought that the old man had gone bat-shit crazy. It was so unreal and so complicated that I thought this could be the end of my OT adventure.

    But I plowed on and finished the theory, and was ready to audit. The old man had said to do ___ if nothing happens. So I went in session and started the process. Nothing. Ten minutes into it – nothing. Then I remembered “If nothing happens ____”. So I started to do ___ and all of a sudden I saw a twitch in the meter. I stopped, watched the needle. Nothing. I kept on and suddenly a Rocket Read accompanied by a searing bolt of electricity right across the bridge of my nose. I stopped. Wow. I sat there for a minute and waited and then started again. Another Rocket Read, followed by another. Fuck it – pour it on. I hammered the commands and the meter went crazy and so did my universe. I was actually scared shitless as the meter continued to blowdown, beef back up and blow down maybe 15 times a minute and inside of my head was a maelstrom of charge coming in and dissipating faster than I could see. Finally the storm ended as fast as it came on. I looked at the meter: Dial wide F/N and it kept going.

    I felt like washed out but also felt like I just went through a wash machine and got a LOT of dirt removed from my space. It was phenominal! In 20 minutes of auditing I got 25 divisions of Tone Arm! This was the average of all my OT II sessions.

    The next 14 sessions were like that only better until finally I was left with nothing but a dial wide Persistent F/N that lasted weeks. To my everything before OT II was “retail”. OT II was wholesale charge blowing off.

    This was the best ever and a lot of folks are going to agree with me.

    ML Tom

  502. This is in response to Cat Daddy’s comment. For some reason, the reply button to his comment does not work.

    Cat Daddy, please do not call my Russian Freezone friends insane. They are not. There is something insane about people who push the “insane label” on opinions they don’t agree with.

    Nordenholz’ book isn’t even remotely Scientology as by L. Ron Hubbard.

    Back to the JK Rowling judgment. Even if there are some same terms/names in Potter books, fact is that the other author didn’t write the Potter books.

    LRH developed the SCN tech. And if you don’t know this, I feel sorry for you.

  503. Hi Marty,
    This is a personal comment to you.
    I really enjoy your blog and am in awe of your courage. I am very interested in this discussion and the one on Leaving Scientology because so much resonates with my knowledge of and experience of christianity. I resonate with what you say about the spiritual conditions which seem to make telepathic, synchronous, and other phenomena more frequent. Much that has been said could also be said of those within and around charismatic Christianity. I’ve seen things go badly wrong in that movement the moment people begin to focus on the phenomena for their own sake. That is why I think that the revival that began with the ‘Toronto Blessing’ never happened. These things are gifts. About 500 years ago an amazing lady called Theresa of Avila wrote a book called The Interior Castle, which is an exploration of spiritual development and touches on some of the phenomena which may become more frequent as one progresses. The Inquisition was going on at the time so she had to be very careful what she wrote, and she often apologises for being a woman (I’m sure that’s a political move, as women were supposed to be meek and mild!!) I have always been very excited about interfaith dialogue. I know you have more than enough on your plate now but I very much hope that one day we might compare notes. My personal email is still.family@virgin.net

  504. Old School,
    Sorry I missed your stepping in for Bunk.
    “…it is whatever is accelerating it to the speed of light.”

    Ummm, yeah, and sooooo, what is that? Taking it back, (and not in time =space) to say a ‘prime impetus’ sort of deal. Like, in the present. Or is the present simply a result of the Big Bang ‘determinism’? Does quantum speculation on God playing dice have any validity in the ‘conservation of energy’ idee fixe?

    And such like.

  505. Jim, Michael;
    You guys are hilarious. I just posted to you, Michael, a reference to Positive Postulate from esto 3 above and get down the blog and see this discussion. OSA or DM probably cannot understand how so many trained and operational beings post here, live as independents, and don’t toe the line. Sure they think we could be such great assets. Some just can’t or won’t see what is in front of their faces.

    And others like you two, play games in the lightness of a being mode. To me, this is how LRH would play the game, fun – light and with creation of thoughts and interchange and not solidification of agreements only. I enjoy this journey with all of you.

  506. Beautiful poetry – both of them. Thanks.

  507. Marty, that’s a very good observation. I look forward to meeting Jeff one day.
    Just Me


    by David Miscavige
    Private Journal Notes

    It was morning. I looked in the mirror, my eyes were bright,  piercing lasers of pure intention. I now knew I was unstoppable. 

    It was time for my usual daily affirmations. This time, it was as though LRH himself was channelling through me.

    “Dave, you are entirely unstoppable.”
    “Dave, you do not miss your wife.”
    “Dave, Tom loves you.”
    “Dave, if you do not do everything in your power to use your new-found OT abilities to save this planet you are just no damn good and do not deserve the wonderful array of worldly goods at your disposal.”

    I got down on my knees on the bathroom floor and looked up at the vastness of space above me. My oaths continued, like automatic writing:

    “Dave, you will stop masturbating.”
    “Dave, all men, women and children will grovel at your feet.”
    “Dave, your lisp will improve and you will have no more asthma attacks.”
    “Dave, you will stop drinking scotch.”

    That last one came on me hard and fast, like an unexpected avalanche of large rocks falling on my head. The trembling of my body built swiftly into full blown convulsing as my head started throbbing to a rhythm of what seemed like a forgotten ancient strength. The electricity coursed up and down my spinal cord like a freight train going in both directions at once.

    Acting quickly, I lunged for my grounding rods and gripped them tightly, my eyes squeezing themselves shut from the force that ripped roaringly through me. A visible bolt of electricity flew out of my chest and exploded in a ball of blue-white sizzling light out in front of my body, knocking me backwards as if I’d been slammed into by a New York taxi cab.

     Struggling to my feet with great difficulty, I stood humbly in front of the mirror, dripping in sweat.  It was obvious to me that I was a changed man. I was overcome with a new sense that I would no longer be reasonable, no longer would I doubt my own powers. My jaw even looked stronger, my biceps more formidable, my gaze now even more frighteningly intense, my sense of confidence…well, it was…GOOD GOD, IT WAS OFF THE CHARTS!

    Surprisingly, my lips looked different and I wondered if I was cured of my lisp. “Sssss” I mouthed in a whisper, “Zzzz” I said louder, the excitement swelling as my chest puffed out like a rooster demonstrating unchallenged superiority.

    “The zebra is superior to the swinging set of silent shy fish in the sea” came forth clearly, distinctly, without a hint of the horrid lisp I’d carried with me my whole life. No spittle! No twisted mispronunciation of the S’s or Z’s or Sh’s I’d had been humiliatingly carrying with me my entire life.


    With the grace of a saint and power of a king I turned and looked around the bathroom and envisioned immediately the type of toilet that I wanted, a golden throne, one of immense beauty and fineness, with inlaid jewels and infrared flushing mechanism.

    “And I shall have it” I found myself saying out loud. “Just as you shall have your way with ALL and EVERYTHING that you envision.” The brand new sound of my sentence uttered without a single trace of the usual ‘ssshhhh’noise that usually accompanied combinations of consonants as if I carried a bag of greased marbles in my mouth. Hey, I even was able to THINK without lisping, something I’d never, ever, ever been able to do before now.

    “Combinations of consonants” I thought again, “combinations of consonants, combinations of consonants, shiny short shamen shined shoes swiftly for several sloshed seamen”, the words shot out, sharp and elegant and sure without a single slur!

    Out of nowhere a thought appeared in my mind, “Others will try to stop you.”

    Whoah! Where did that come from? SMASH! I round-housed a fist into the side of my own head, rapid and hard. The thought disappeared instantly, leaving me once again with the certainty that I could overcome any barrier, surmount any obstacle, remove any counter-intention that could ever arise between me and my objectives.

    I would have my toilet. I would have my cleared planet. All my beings of this universe would now be saved. I would have that one of a kind, custom made Armarni suit, even if it did cost twelve thousand Euros! I was deserving of the best, I was the most competent, the most knowledgeable, the fastest, the strongest, the toughest, the most ruthless…and I would look it, show it, flaunt it…be it!

    The very concept of ‘impossible’ or ‘can’t’ or ‘shouldn’t’ was permanently persona non grata anywhere within my personal vicinity.

    The future belonged to ME!


  509. Michael,
    Sorry, missed that, was eating a carrot. Say again…

    My foot itches. Does that mean something?

    Speaking of which, I bought a brand new baseball glove so as to play catch with the boy. It’s a twelve inch Fastpitch glove. Man, what a great glove. Plus the boy is learning how to play catch and every boy should know that. I figure, anyway.

    I like strumpets, errr, trumpets. I wonder if DM can play baseball. Not really, I’ve seen him try. He can’t. Can’t fish either.

    You stink, good. Is that supposed to be ‘well’, ‘you stink, well’? You are an inkwell. Stop typing. I can’t. Yes, you can. No. Yes. No infinity. Yes infinity. Maybe…and so it goes.

  510. Why do people insist that “parlor tricks” are any indication of O T abilities?
    Why do some think that is there is no instant physical manifestation that nothing happened. I suppose it’s because it’s all measured on 5 senses.
    Move this, make this happen, make that happen, predict something etc.
    How about being able to maintain your position in the universe. How about being able to confront evil. How about being able to give a being hope. How about helping someone break the chains. How about being able to see the MEST universe for what it really is.
    Despite Marty’s hesitant admissions about O T abilities these are the things he and Mike and everyone associated with them do every day.

    Probably the most necessary and sought after O T ability as of late is the regained ability to see beyond their suppression.

    That’s O.T.

    The rest is merely manipulation of MEST .

  511. “The enjoyment of life comes not from what is perceived, but how we perceive it.”

  512. M,
    There’s too many syllables in that question for me. Even saying ‘syllable’ is stretching it like half melted mozzerella on a pizza.

  513. freespirit,
    That is what OT is. Living life from a point of cause. Being cause to create effects for the greatest good. To exist as the knowing being you truly are. You shine brightly my friend!

  514. Hello Lion,

    If the people who are active in online ex-Scientology communities like this place, Jeff’s blog, the ex-scientologist message board, etc. are indicative then a pretty high percentage of former Scientologists — possibly even a majority — don’t feel that Hubbard knew how to do it.

    They (presumably) did study it.

    I’m just saying, some positive testimonials are not convincing in and of themselves.

    Maybe you aren’t interested in convincing people who aren’t already convinced but I’d say it’s a necessary part of spreading Scientology.


  515. martyrathbun09

    Nice post Jane. I think you’ll really enjoy the next one coming later today.

  516. Quick OT story: Amsterdam, Netherlands Sylvester 2004, 1rst of January 2005 , 5am. City was hell, lots of drunken and drugged guys and girls. Mc Donalds completely sold out. On the street I suddenly saw three rowdies, striking annother guy lying on the street. Nobody cared about. I looked at it, no missemotion, no impulse to handle physically, just looking but disagreed.
    After about 20 seconds, suddenly the three rowdies stood up and left. there was no obvious reason why. They just stopped and left the place. I had similar exp. later two or three times. Its incredible. (I am not OT per grade
    chart) but had lots of FPRD. ARC

  517. I consider it an OT ability that I managed to get all the way through this column today without giving in to the temptation to leave another answer to anyone.

    Damn, now I have to click the button and leave an answer in order to say I didn’t leave an answer!

    Okay, there’s an OT ability. The ability to laugh at yourself! LOL on me!

  518. Until this morning, I had resisted posting substantively on this topic, either here or over at Jeff’s. Conversations where too many people are talking past each other, speaking different languages with some literally trying NOT to understand each other, depress me. However, something Jeff said this morning finally inspired me to chime up over there:

    Jeff said, “Frankly, I don’t think anyone ever heard the phrase ‘Cause over matter, energy, space, time, life and thought, subjective and objective,’ and thought it meant ‘running my business better.’”

    Sorry, Jeff, but from my first day in Scientology that’s exactly what I did think it meant – although more broadly (not just about business) and along the lines of living an effective, interesting, exciting, satisfying life and making my dreams come true. Then, when some woo-woo stuff did start happening, I found it extremely fascinating. But the woo-woo’est stuff has been a rarity for me, certainly not a daily or even annual occurrence.

    When the woo-woo stuff does happen, I find my grasp on and fascination for the physical world lessens. And because I continue to choose to live in this physical realm (hey, I’m a human being who’s not dead yet, eh?), the unusual abilities do fade when I again turn my attention to my pretty intense real-life obligations.

    In fact, this situation reminds me of something another climber once said: “Climbing Mount Everest changes your life forever. Unfortunately, it only lasts about thirty days.”

    And for the record, I did not spend anything like $500K for my Scientology services — probably more like $30,000 through OTIV, Class IV interned, PDC, etc. I never went into debt for any Scientology services. I also did not stay until the bitter end (I faded quietly in 1988). Up until about 1985 I was satisfied with the return on my investment of money, time, energy, and other choices forgone. But when my ROI dipped (because of an unsatisfying OTIV level, the new IAS status scene, and noticeably greater money grubbing), I trusted my instincts and left the organization.

    I often think the degree to which people are pissed off at and about Scientology is closely related to how much they paid for their Scientology experience. The net of my cost for and my return from Scientology was positive. I didn’t lose anything. I gained. However, I know lots of other people who paid so much more for their Scientology experience than I did and got so much less. They paid for it with their spouses, their children, their parents, their health, their careers, horribly traumatic experiences, and decades of their life. Why in the world would I say they should feel any different than they do? I wouldn’t.

    Having finally taken the time to chime in here, I admit I find this particular discussion / argument / debate a bit pointless. It seems to be mostly people saying, “No, U!”

    Just Me

  519. Hello Friend of Ron,

    Dr. King and Gandhi were both actively engaging with the world and inspiring others to do so when they were in their twenties.

    I’m not trying to be flippant, but why aren’t independent Scientologists getting out there and doing the same?

    There is no better way to convince the world of the benefits of Scientology.


  520. Oop again, more posts have appeared since I got through them. I have to say now to Tom, my OT II was nothing like that, could not have been any process similar to that. I did it in 1985. When did you do it?

  521. Once again!

  522. Yvonne Schick

    Thank you for adding this to the comments here. I think it is very useful to see how much of what we discuss is also discussed in a wide range of religious philosophies.

  523. OTDT, you are magnificent in your writingness! Fabulamalamadingdong in your creative juices! Wondrously bountiful in your authornicity! In short, you knock me out.


  524. Yvonne Schick

    I’m getting all teary-eyed – in the best way.

  525. 2ndxmr

    I like that. I think it is worth exploring for sure.

    One thing that would be needed to pull it off would be “full disclosure”.
    There can be no withholds if one wants to find “truth”. There would need to be a first step, wherein all parties must have fully established the postulate, within themselves, that they are looking for TRUTH ( or as close as can be achieved), and that they will use ALL their skills and data, to the best of their ability, to HELP in that discovery. That they will share any and all data, past and present, good or bad. Without the most truth “going in” the chances of getting “truth” as a result is pretty much impossible.

    I am not sure that “we” have reached the point in our development, either spiritually or scientifically, to do this. It requires a heavy dose of TRUST.

    I can only really speak for myself here, but I know I am not willing to “let loose” with everything, at all levels. Hell, I have not even reached the point where I am even willing, or able, to inspect the full truth of all of my OWN track experiences.

    Even here, on this blog, at this time, I am pretty sure there is “thought stopping” going on. I will guess that many contributors would dearly love to be able to just “go into session” and “let it all hang out”. But since the “security” of an auditing environment has not been FULLY established, I do not expect it will happen fully.

    This group, and this venue, have done more towards this end than any other that I have yet experienced, outside of a real auditing session. It is not perfect, but I consider that it is part of a good path, and I would like to follow it further.

    I can imagine that what you propose could well be down the path somewhere. We have but to travel in that direction.


  526. Marty: Ken Wilber talks about Theresa of Avila!!

    Several modern writers use her wisdom in their consulting.

    Looking forward to the next post!


  527. Centurion

    Ahhh Centurion. You made me go all misty there.


  528. Sugar Plum Fairey

    I find whenever I want a boost of theta, I log onto this blog. The original texts and all the comments humble me. They contain the most creative thought, legendary musicians, artists and writers new and old.
    Your humble servant,
    Sugar Plum Fairey

  529. Tom, My god man. I experienced the same thing while auditing on OT III.
    Because I knew the ‘old man’ I had confidence that the tech worked and I had many great wins before but I just didn’t believe what I was auditing…..until the lightning and the needle action and at the end the wonderful floating TA. It’s there and the only way to find it is to follow the instructions. As you know once you experience these phenomena you are a believer. The ‘old man’ really did know what he was doing. I’m looking forward to more NOTs. Love

  530. Sugar Plum Fairey

    525 comments and counting……

  531. As I read the many comments, I found myself smiling, then laughing, then tears of joy and gratitude streaming down my face. It is so wonderful to find so many, so many amazing individuals of such grace, kindness, and yes, love, responding to your article on OT abilities! My heart is full to bursting and I feel, finally, that I have found my people, the people of caring and joy and creativity that I thought I had lost forever. Thank you, all of you.

    Thank you Marty for providing this awesome platform of communication for all of us! I can hardly type through my tears. And to LRH, wherever you may be, I love you so much for sharing what you learned along your path. I will never be the same as each new dawn unfolds into eternity and a new civilization made of the countless dreams and hopes and love I have found here.

  532. II was a phenomenal level for me as well Tom.

    Loved it 🙂

  533. Marty, I want to acknowledge you and everyone else who comment on this blog. What you have done here auditing the third dynamic is nothing short of miraculous. In two short years you have blown so much charge with all of us here and gathered together the biggest best OTs on the planet. I am glad to have you as my auditor but you have been auditing all of us here. As I’ve watched this group grow I am at awe at what you’ve done. Talk about OT. This particular thread has demonstrated who the real OTs are. Nothing like this could ever have happened in DM’s church. This IS Scientology in action. Thank you my friend. I’m sure LRH is very proud indead! I Love you buddy.

  534. Free and Clear

    Jeff asked the question, does Scientology actually deliver OT abilities, as a separate question from do they exist. Even admitting these abilities exist here and there, he asks- “can scientology produce them?” I think the answer to this question is very simple. You just ask “is man a spirit?”. Anyone who has exteriorized knows for a fact that he is not mortal and lives for ever. Anyone who has not exteriorized “knows” it all bunk and he has only one life and then turns to dust. The first time a person fully exteriorizes the whole discussion is over . Scientology absolutely can exteriorize people. That should not be in question, it has done so tens of thousands of times. Thus, Scientology gives valid and demonstrable OT abilities – the ability to live forever. I’ll take it and screw the flying teapots. Its actually what drives Scientology, not flying teapots. The teapots are cute. Immotality is a very serious offer. This is just a discussion between people who have not exteriorized and those who have. But yes, its as fun as all get out to take note of what a spirit exterior to the body can get up to!

  535. martyrathbun09

    right back at ya, Sergeant.

  536. martyrathbun09

    Perhaps the most underplayed and invalidated action on the Bridge.

  537. Scott Campbell

    Hey Flavio!

    How are you? Long time no see. Karry says Ciao’ Flavio!

    Send me an email at neobliviscaris@hushmail.com and we’ll catch up.

    Good to hear from you, man.

    L, Scott

  538. I agree Marty,

    OT II is a spectacular level that is very underrated yet very vital in my opinion in attaining the state of full OT.

  539. Tom, Sarge, RJ, Marty,
    Double dittoes from me on OTII. I think I’m repeating myself on this blog, but never, ever, ever have I blown so much charge in my life in such small units of time. It was hugely beneficial to me. If I ever want to rehab my auditing wins, all I have to do is remember my last OTII session. Instant cleanliness and power and just me.

    Just Me

  540. I hate it when I turn to dust.

  541. Lynne, I think I did OTII in 1982, ’83, around in there.

  542. 🙂 +1!

  543. dear OTDT,
    No worry, ya didn’t really turn to dust. You can turn the dust back to a body and get back into the game being played. or… play some other game and come right back and continue where you left off. You control the clock also – remember. But, will admit, I will miss you if you are gone very long so be sure and write up a lot of pertinent “letters” knowing in advance when and where they will be posted. As long as your hat is covered you can play anywhere and anytime you want. From a fellow traveler.

  544. Karen#1~Late but personal wins, yes! I was electrocuted to death as a kid…DOA and revived. I had NO memory starting before it happened ’till I regained consciousness a few days later in ICU. Not being able to remember this plagued me even as a kid and until I walked in for my first Book One session…during which I ran a few recent things then sorted the whole thing out! Poof! Just like that, I remembered what happened. Magic!

  545. Oh wow! I’ve got a thing for dolphins…

  546. Ahhhh, very cool. You put into words something like I experienced on LOC clay table processing about the eighth dynamic.
    😉 Maybe I was there. hehe

  547. Bliss! That is so cool.

  548. SFrog~I was 22 when I joined staff and aspired to do something like that. But you can see from our histories how we got sidetracked and discombobulated.

  549. Globetrotter

    OT abilities, and phenomena for that matter, can be a very personal experience, which you have neither a need nor a chance to “prove” to someone.

    I just had an incident on the way back home. I had been driving at around 40 mph when a cat appeared form nowhere, trying to cross the street in front of my car – she appeared on the right side of the road, about 2 feet in front of me and ran towards the left across the highway. I didn’t even have a chance to slow down, never mind stop, and there was another car right behind me (about 50 feet). I LOVE cats (I have 2 at home – sources of many, many pleasure moments in my life) and I long ago made a postulate that I would NEVER run over a cat (you know how damn stupid they are when they decide to cross a highway…) .

    So immediately when I saw the cat I knew:

    1. I will run her over (observation), and
    2. NO, I WON’T (my postulate).

    A split second later I heard the cat making contact with the bottom of my car. It wasn’t very loud, but well audible. I looked in the rear view mirror, looking for the cat. There was NOTHING behind my car. Another split second later I saw the cat – she was on the oncoming lane, running for her life – BACK to the right where she came from, the fastest she could, barely clearing the car behind me, and disappearing into the front yard of the house next to the street.

    Since she was running in a normal, scared-cat-turbo fashion, I am sure that she she could have had no major injuries. I stopped to inspect my car after the incident. Since I drive an SUV, it has a higher ground clearance, and I noticed (never looked there before) that under the bumper, it had a soft, slanted plastic cover, held in place by a few screws. One of the screws in the middle had a little bunch of cat fur on it. Nothing major. That must have been the part that hit the poor thing. Since it slanted downwards, it probably pushed her downward, saving her from contacting any of the metal parts of the car, in effect, saving her life.

    You drive 40 mph on a highway on a collision course with a cat running as fast as she could across your path, she clears all 4 wheels of the car (a 5000 pound SUV ) in the middle, clears the cars in the oncoming lane, turns around, successfully crosses your lane again behind you and before the next car right behind you could hit her and escapes without any major injuries. What’s the chance? Impossible? As Captain Jack Sparrow would have said “Not impossible. Improbable” 🙂

    Sure, it might have been “luck” or chance. I will never have any evidence that my postulate played any part in saving the poor thing. I won’t even say I know it did, because the fact is that I don’t know. I just know that I had a postulate that I would NEVER run over a cat. And I didn’t. Why and how? Who cares? I am happy that it ended this way.

    After the incident, I got in comm with the cat (no, not physically – I had no idea where she was – she ran away as far as she could), told her that she was a very lucky thing and to NEVER do this again, and I knew that she might be hurting and to cure herself fast, because I loved cats and wanted her to cause many more happy moments to cat lovers like me. I wished her well, and drove on.

    It is great to KNOW that things around you tend to go well. Who cares about proof then? I am not a show. I don’t postulate things to prove anything to anyone. Make your own postulates and make the world around you a better place. That will be your proof.

  550. Right on, Jack UK.

    When I came back to work after getting my Life Repair, I was asked questions like “WHAT happened to YOU??!!!”

  551. Mike,

    You actually talking apples and oranges here.

    Whereas you may have been honestly pursuing a scientific objective.

    The Amazing Retard has none save “proving” to the world somehow that psychic phenomenon does not exit.

    The “Million Dollar ‘Challenge'” is a charade a fraud indeed an illusion created by an illusionist or stage magician.

    He has no intention of giving up that money even the psychic proved beyond a reasonable doubt to be psychic if he was indeed psychic which I doubt because most actual psychics know this fact either by intuition or by past examples of Jeff Randi’s lack of objectivity and complete bias.

    For instance he spent years *claiming* that the successes of the remote viewing project were due to some kind stage magic or illusion despite the fact that he could not replicates these results himself using any of his illusionist bag of tricks which is how he “proves” that psychic ability does not exist.

    For instance if some one moves an object by psychokinesis he’ll claim the person is a “fake” because he can do the same thing as an illusionist.

    If someone gets a statistically significant result on Zener cards he’ll “prove” how it can be done as a simple card trick etc.

    However one thing Randi has been unable to do for all these years is “prove” that Remote Viewing ca be replicated as a parlor trick of some kind.

    Like the mythical Wolf in Red Riding Hood he’s huffed and puffed and has been unable to bring that house down.

    But that doesn’t stop him from claiming that its “fake”, “can’t be done” etc.

    Now you ask why hasn’t some Remote Viewer hasn’t taken the challenge?

    Well the reason is obvious and that is because Randi does not allow any independent review of his adjudication by any other organization other than the JREF.


    Because he trusts parapsychologists even less than psychics.

    In other words its like doing medical research and having it evaluated by the gardener or the maid instead of a competent physician.

    Thus the “Million Dollar Challenge” is a fraud perpetrated by a fraud.

  552. Special Frog, how do you know they aren’t?

    I’m 66 years old, and I inspire people in my own small way in my daily life and work. Do you?

    Maybe when I’m 20 again I will do more; or maybe I will just go fishing.

    What will you do?

  553. SF, I think people who need “convincing” or “proof” are likely people who must “have” before they can know. Perhaps before they can even be.
    That’s living at a stimulus-response level.
    Just like the COS, which at this point seems to feel they must have fancy expensive Idle Org buildings before they can train, audit or even disseminate effectively. They feel they must “have” before they can do, so they never start doing.
    It’s just an apology for failure.

    I coined a word for it – procrasturbation.

  554. I would add that you have not posted anything that is not true.

    But much of it is just true for you and others who might share your viewpoint.

    Some of those considerations might seem irrelevant to others posting on this blog.

  555. Thanks. I wonder what it was I got? Hmmm….

  556. freespirit, thanks … I just love these stories of real life, wins, observations, opinions. I appreciate your willingness to share the details.

  557. “The next 14 sessions were like that only better until finally I was left with nothing but a dial wide Persistent F/N that lasted weeks. To my everything before OT II was “retail”. OT II was wholesale charge blowing off.

    This was the best ever and a lot of folks are going to agree with me.

    ML Tom”

    OT II was also my favorite bridge action. All done through a persistent F/N.

  558. martyrathbun09

    Edited to remove the gratuitous and non sequitur tech advices. But thanks for the validation of Tom’s origination and the value of the level.

  559. martyrathbun09 | March 21, 2011 at 1:36 am | Reply

    “Edited to remove the gratuitous and non sequitur tech advices. But thanks for the validation of Tom’s origination and the value of the level.”


    May I suggest then that one might read Pab 12 , non confidential,
    in the red vols. Pure LRH.

  560. Class Marty. Thanks. 🙂

  561. @RJ: nothing at all to say about the contents of my comment concerning communication with dolphins ?
    Only a nasty rant against James Randi that could have been posted as a reply to the main thread?
    You disappoint me.
    Michael A. Hobson

  562. Oh wow Mike I disappointed you!!!!

    However will I live with myself….


  563. If someone claims that they have gained a specific ability, such as telepathy, telekinesis, astral projection, etc… , those can be scientifically tested.

    Those abilities are pretty well defined and either exist or don’t.

  564. I don’t believe in implants.

  565. Your humble servant

    Thanks for this amazing story!

  566. I have an experience I wish to share:

    Some years ago I was driving up a street by an apartment house. There were cars parked on both sides of the street, making it quite narrow. Over to my right, I could see a party going on. And on the sidewalk, I could see a young girl and a man I assumed was her dad.

    As I started driving by, I could instantly see the future. The young girl would sprint between two cars into the path of my car while being chased by her dad. If she made it past my car, she would run into the path of an oncoming car.

    I didn’t like the future I saw so I simply stopped my car, stopped the oncoming car, and waited for an alternate future to play out. And it did!

    The young girl sprinted between two cars being while being chased by her dad. No problem, I had stopped my car and left room for her to run. I had also stopped the oncoming car so the girl’s dad had lots of room to catch her.

    I like the future I created far better than what was presented to me by circumstance. H

  567. martyrathbun09

    Now that is what I am talking about!

  568. Friend of Ron

    Special Frog,

    I agree with you. We need to go out and improve conditions in the world, but not to convince the world of the benefits of Scientology. That is just a small byproduct, IMHO.

    The purpose is to go out and improve conditions and make this a saner planet, regardless of whether we get recognition for it or not.

  569. I don´t get it. Jeff likes to write. (Thoughtful even more so) Jeff likes to disprove the validity of OT-levels, which is one of his options on how to deal with having no personal reality. What´s so amazing about that? What´s amazing is how many dedicated scientologists continue staying focused on creating a lighter world, and continue their journey into freeing themselves spiritually, in the face of cynics out there and scientologists with failed purposes.

  570. Great story, H, and one that proves that it’s not about letters on a certificate. The OT levels are about rehabbing your innate BIGness; of remembering who you are and what you can do.

  571. I was trying to get your attention.
    My apoligies

    If you reread it you will see that I said the Subject-matters differ.

    Nordenholz just mamed his subjectmatter Scientologie independantly from L Ron Hubbrd naming his subjectmatter Scientology.

    Somebody put the words science and Science and Logos together that isn’t hard to do.



    If you “wordclear” these two words one comes to see that the combination of the two can mean a multitude of things.


    I do not think your Russian friends are insane. I think they have “affinity” with the word Scientology and have difficulty accepting someone else besideds LRH came up with the combination of the two words mentioned.

  572. Awesome!

  573. I agree with you on the points of full disclosure and trust. Such a project may have to be a fully internationally sponsored project – like IST the International Space Station.

    When all parties are there for the scientific exploration and not for national gain, trust will emerge.

    Full disclosure will mean that all of humanity is kept abreast of the findings and even of potential development through higher OT levels.

    There may well be very powerful groups or individuals that would not like this to happen. Guarding the path from those types may be a job for our existing OTs.

    There are a huge number of factors to consider, but time is on our side right now. That makes it the time for these considerations.

  574. http://www.williamjames.com/Folklore/MINDOVER.htm

    “An interesting insight into the psychological dynamics of such events is provided by the great Swiss psychiatrist Carl G. Jung — who developed the concept of synchronicity as an acausal explanatory principle. In 1909, Jung visited his mentor Sigmund Freud in Vienna, and at one point asked him his opinion of psychic phenomena. Although Freud later changed his mind on the subject, at that time he dismissed the likelihood that such events could occur. Jung narrates an uncanny incident that occurred in the course of this conversation.

    While Freud was going on in this way, I had a curious sensation. It was as if my diaphragm was made of iron and becoming red-hot — a glowing vault. And at that moment there was such a loud report in the bookcase, which stood right next to us, that we both started up in alarm, fearing the thing was going to topple over us. I said to Freud: “There, that is an example of a so-called catalytic exteriorisation phenomenon.”

    “Oh come,” he explained. “That is sheer bosh.”

    “It is not,” I replied. “You are mistaken, Herr Professor. And to prove my point I now predict that in a moment there will be another loud report!” Sure enough, no sooner had I said the words than the same detonation went off in the bookcase.

    To this day I do not know what gave me this certainty. But I knew beyond a doubt that the report would come again. Freud only stared aghast at me. I do not know what was in his mind, or what his look meant. In any case, this incident aroused his mistrust of me, and I had the feeling that I had done something against him. I never afterwards discussed the incident with him.”

  575. Roberta,

    I agree.

    I’ve never paid much mind to the pseudo-skeptics except to point out the flaws in their “logic” if you can call it such.

    For instance mind over matter is so easy to prove that it defies imagination that such “skeptical” and “critical” thinkers fail to perceive the obvious.

    It is harder to prove that a thetan can be exterior which is more difficult a reality to perceive but still can be proven beyond a reasonable doubt and has been with probably the unintentional help of CIA and other members of the intelligence community.

    We hear or read about evidence of telepathic communication all the time especially of maternal twins and others who are closely related by friendship or blood.

    Yet the *facts* only seem to confuse many pseudo-skeptics because maybe to them it portends of a dangerous world of disembodied spirits and ghosts raising havoc with their best laid plans of total technocratic domination.

    They in other words have become the new priests but instead of religion it is science or more accurately pseudo-science that they use to dominate the unwashed masses with.

    In reality science like religion has become a new *faith*.

    Or more precisely it has closed terminals with religion and has become what it at one time opposed.

    They like the Roman Catholic Church did at one time issue Papal Bulls on what areas that those “Scientists” of the true faith should “investigate” but instead of physically burning heretics at the stake (an expensive proposition considering the price of gas these days) they malign them instead and urge the Government to cut off their funding.

    As they did with the Remote Viewing program.

    Or they take a religion such as Scientology and pervert it with the help of one of their unwitting agents of influence to the point where it is completely unworkable.

    Anyway Jeff is a good person he is not saying that psychic abilities don’t exist he is simply saying that Scientology doesn’t “produce” them.

    Of course Ron *never* said that Scientology ever *produced* any psychic or OT ability since they are inherent.

    Only that Scientology correctly and standardly applied can enhance these abilities of yours which you already have that you haven’t used for trillions upon trillions of years.

    Maybe there is a confusion between *enhancing* these abilities and what is called “making OTs” which is what happens when you *enhance* such abilities.

    It seems a lot of Scientologists and critics seem to short circuit this concept due to lack of training in the actual subject.

    We learn early on in Scientology training as Auditors that we are there to help improve the abilities not to give the Preclear abilities they’ve never had and that it is up to the PC once he is at the level of Pre OT to enhance these abilities himself using the exact techniques as covered in the Advance Course materials.

    Unfortunately many who go up this route refuse to actually avail themselves of the training that is required to “make” an actual OT and then blame Ron or the Tech for their own failure to achieve these states they say they were “promised”.

    Failing to look at their own failures and some cases their dishonesty in falsely attesting to attaining levels they never actually achieved.

  576. Out of the blue I thought of a friend from childhood. It had been years since I thought of her, and I had no obvious reason to, she just came to mind and I was drawn to google her. What came up was a funeral notice, for her mother, occurring in three days. I sent an email with my deepest condolences to her c/o the funeral home. She emailed me gratefully, saying that when she got home from the service, she was amazed to open the folder the funeral home had given her to find my printed email therein. She was deeply grateful for the comfort of my words, and was amazed to hear from me with that amazing timing. She felt it was her mother’s way of reaching her. She sent me the pamphlet of her mother’s service, and the first photo on it was one of her mother with mine.

    Mere coincidence? Let’s talk odds. Especially when this is one of many such daily occurrences.

  577. martyrathbun09

    Coincidence? With V, not a chance.

  578. I was one of those students.

  579. 588 responses! Wow. If anything that is a validation of the subject matter.
    By way of a disclaimer:
    I cannot yet levitate, but I am an excellent pilot, something I always dreamed of but never achieved until after I did the Ls;
    I am not cause over all of life but i am cause over my life;
    I am not yet cause over the death of my body, but I “know” now I will live forever;
    I do not understand everything and I am not all knowing, but I have been told by my many friends I have an uncanny sense of timing and knowing the right thing to do;
    I have been on OT7 twice, and I still have somatics, nevertheless I know who I am and I am not a body;

    I could go on…

    I love Scientology and LRH because it has made a HUGE difference in my life, my awareness and my happiness.

    I do not support DM’s version as it is corrupt and without love for others.

    I love the Sea Org and the fine people there. They are my friends. But I fear they are enslaved by the worst of the worse.

    In the end, I feel more OT, more aware and more able. I feel hope. This can never be taken from me. No one can ever invalidate the wins I have had, it can never happen.

    I believe LRH was on track to get us where we need to be next. Lets get our church back and finish the job!

  580. Thank you B 🙂

  581. B,
    I may not know you but I admire you. What you said is simple, elegant and truth. I also noted your love for the SO and many fine people there. I too, believe that so many are there for the correct reason. Suppression clouds their ability to see and those that do see are smacked down rather harshly.

    LRH left a legacy. The church is the group, its agreement, its purpose and the work of the members. That continues. Here on this blog, on other blogs, it whispered conversations of those beginning to doubt and to look outside the paper veil.

    Your wins, so well stated, are what makes all of this worth it. Enjoy them every day. Enjoy the birds, the sun, the breeze and the freedom to just BE any thing you want. If I may, I would count you as a friend. SA

  582. H,
    Lovely – I like being on your side of the fence with other like minded beings!

  583. Michael Fairman


  584. Sounds like you have no proof and have tried to create a work around for this deficiency.

    Hubbard stated that scientology had a basis in science. Well…science requires proof.

  585. Thnak you for the ack, Michael. You’re a good ‘un, too. Love your comments! And your right, about the E-meter drill. It’s a lot like “Life is like a box of chocolates, you never know what you’re going to get”. Sometimes, I make comments that I think are so good . . . and nothing . . . . . , then later, say something insignificant, and boom, it hits other’s reality. But, I appreciate the “advice” on the EM drill, that was very good — great analogy.
    The cog of all this is: A blog is NOT an auditing session. There is no auditor there assigned to make sure every comm is acked. One is also opening the door to every violation of the Auditor’s code there is, including invalidation, evaluation, etc. etc. On a blog, you pays your money and takes your chances!
    ML, LM

  586. Karen,

    I don’t doubt that there are some people that get genuine, miraculous results with Scientology.

    However, to claim that they get 100% results if Scientology is applied “correctly” is a totally un-provable claim. There may be much, much more influence on the results due to the PC’s natural abilities, functions of the physical world that we don’t understand, or even the intervention of a third party that we’re not aware of.

    What’s worse is that such an assertion puts the onus of the results on the PC; it is assumed that it’s the PC’s fault, or the auditor’s fault, that no results were obtained.

    I think a more honest answer (and one that would avoid charges of fraud), would be to say that Scientology works better for some people than others.

    Because that’s what the record shows.

  587. RJ,

    Every Million Dollar Challenge that I have witnessed has been completely on the up-and-up. They have been exceedingly fair to the claimants, completely above-board with the methodology, and have taken place in public, in front of an audience.

    Now, I agree that PSI abilities have been demonstrated in a laboratory, but their effects have been subtle, weak and hard to predict. Only through the use of a large sample size do the effects become statistically significant. In fact, results become even more clear when subjected to meta-analysis -something that the Million Dollar Challenge is not designed to do.

    So, to call James Randi a fraud is not only unkind, it is false.

    If Scientology were to, well, conduct some actual *scientific* research, then maybe some of its claims could be documented by parapsychologists. And then, it wouldn’t have to be hiding as a religion, would it?

  588. Lady Minn,

    Most of these experiences are shared in common with the majority of posters here. We are not alone, you and I. What applies to one as a phenomenon generally applies to others. I understand your cognition.

    I too have noticed that sharing my most profound insights often get no feedback, while a comment about sitting around in a bathrobe will generate a grand response. (I don’t even own a bathrobe.) But shared reality is shared reality, so….

    And others have commented on the balance we mostly try to strike between commenting and making this overwhelming to read and experience. Mostly, we do a good job.

    I’ve heard tell that life is a big auditing session at the highest gradient where no codes apply–including the auditor’s code. The process is brutal and all bets are off when it comes to understanding.

    That one pays what one will and takes a chance on the return might explain why I invest so little on blogs when I get better returns elsewhere. The concept of opportunity costs. This stuff gets less than a per cent of my attention.

    But, I that said, I do get a pretty decent return on the pocket change I invest here. For the few hours I spent with this subject over the last few days (highly unusual lately), I was mostly exterior, rehabbing wins and having new insights.

    Some protest the idiocy of others. I don’t know. Just because you’re watching people being stupid doesn’t mean you can’t learn and understand and grow from insights about their behavior. Sometimes I’m even bright enough to recognize that I’m being just as dumb.

    And when you see someone actually demonstrating a high level of insight and ability, you’ve just got to admire and incorporate what you’ve witnessed.

    Now, you’ve got me going. I’d better stop. But, one more point. “Entheta” is just something else to understand rather than something to avoid. Breakdowns in communication, reality and affinity are just other things to understand. KRC and all that.

    In martial arts, the saying goes, “if you can’t take a punch, you’d better not get into a fight.” I know guys who can take a serious kick to the balls and just grin at you. It’s a matter of displacing chi. (Or for Scientologists theta.)

    It’s useful to understand how maintain your own energy patterns without letting someone else’s application of energy dominate those patterns and cause unwanted effects.

    Of course, it’s hard to create any effect on a dead body that’s recognized by that body, and it’s hard to create any effect on a “dead” soul or “dead” mind that is incapable of recognizing the effect. “Not being effect” isn’t the same as “being cause.”

    God, I’ve got to shut up. I just finished cleaning the pool and weeding around the garden; now I’ve got to tackle the koi pond before it rains. I’ve got several hundred fish depending on me for their well being.

    Love yah, and keep on truckin’.


  589. martyrathbun09

    No, it puts the onus on the auditor and C/S.

  590. martyrathbun09

    A subject has no self-determinism to “well, conduct” anything.

  591. Hi Sapere,

    I agree with much of what you have said. However there is one point that I think you may have been misinformed on.

    LRH *did* try to prove OT abilities back in (Well, actually he was trying to display the prowess of “The World’s First Clear”).

    From Wikipedia:
    “In August 1950, amidst the success of Dianetics, Hubbard held a demonstration in Los Angeles’ Shrine Auditorium where he presented a young woman called Sonya Bianca (a pseudonym) to a large audience including many reporters and photographers as ‘the world’s first Clear.’ However, despite Hubbard’s claim that she had “full and perfect recall of every moment of her life”, Bianca proved unable to answer questions from the audience testing her memory and analytical abilities, including the question of the color of Hubbard’s tie. Hubbard explained Bianca’s failure to display her promised powers of recall to the audience by saying that he had used the word “now” in calling her to the stage, and thus inadvertently froze her in “present time,” which blocked her abilities.[8][9]”

  592. MF,

    I call him a fraud because he is a fraud.

    His first effort to “debunk” the paranormal was the “Committee to *Scientifically* Investigate *Claims* of the Paranormal” yet this so called committee never Scientifically investigated any paranormal *claims* as such.

    All they did was go around accusing Parapsychologists and Psychics of being “frauds”.

    Ignored any Scientific evidence and claimed that because some second rate illusionist could perform a similar feat using stage magic that their “claims” must be invalid which is a total A=A.

    The one “scientific investigation” that they actually did do which was to test the validity of remote viewing was a fraud in itself because they never used a single test subject who had any familiarity with all the protocols involved.

    Also who never had any experience remote viewing on behalf of SRI or the IC.

    This would be much like taking some random subject off the street sticking them in front of a piano and telling them to play the “Moonlight Sonata” and then coming to the conclusion that no one can play the piano.

    Anyway CSICOP eventually folded and was replaced by the JREF which obviously has the same objective but at least doesn’t pretend to be a *Scientific* foundation in any way yet still *claims* to be the final word in psychic phenomenon and uses its false flag “Million Dollar Challenge” operation not to test psychic ability but mainly as a bludgeon against any psychic who refuses to accept the the so called “challenge”.

    The ol’ “put up or shut up” mantra by the ignorant which is very similar to the “you’re either for us or against us” mantra chanted by a similar moron and his mentally challenged neocons.

    As if refusing the challenge is “proof” that the psychic is some kind of fraud.

    Oh please!

    Any good psychic could make more money on a junket to Vegas than the paltry sum of one million dollars offered tossing psychic pearls to skeptic swine who’ll just “prove” in some way that its some kind of parlor trick.

    That is if they were solely interested in profiting financially from their psychic efforts.

    So to that extend the “Million Dollar Challenge” may not be the ultimate fraud but it is certainly disingenuous in intent.

    I mean I don’t have to be psychic to know that James Randi has no intention of parting with that Million Dollars whether psychic ability is proven or not and that the idea he will is is merely an illusion perpetrated by a second rate illusionist 🙂

    Now as Marty says how can “Scientology” a subject test for psychic or OT phenomenon and why would it if it was part of its theology that such “god like” abilities exist.

    This is like asking Christians to prove that there is a god.

    I’m sure if you posted this request on any Christian blog you wouldn’t be getting the tolerant reception you seem to be getting here.

  593. Maria Abian,

    Much of the Scientific “proof” you demand is in over 10000 pages of documents released since 1995 under the cryptonym “Star Gate”.

    However I bet you haven’t bothered to review these documents yourself.

    It’s like “proving” that the world is round to a pseudo-skeptic.

    If you are unwilling to look beyond your narrow horizon then it is a pointless exercise.

  594. Veritas, such a cool story. Looking forward to your stories.

  595. martyrathbun09

    You really are reaching.

  596. Seems like an urban legend to me Fancy pants.

    I just happen to have a list of those lectures given at the Shrine between August 10 and September 8 1950 and nothing in there about showing off as Wikipedia (which as we both know is such a font of accurate information) says the world’s “first clear”.

    You don’t happen to have the exact date of this alleged demonstration?

    Oh by the way I’ve heard a similar story before from other critics who say it was a supposedly a demonstration given to the AMA in ’49 .

    Why don’t you guys work out your disinfo before posting it on Wikipedia?

    That way it’s more believable to anyone other than a moron.

  597. theo Sismanides

    OTDT, LOL!!! Miscavige reading this blog must feel very unhappy for NOT having you next to him to write his speeches. Hahaha! What a duplication! IT’s DM speaking!! You beat the sh$# out of him!!!!

  598. Ma understanding of how LRH developed the tech is that he was the first researcher into the mind and spirit to use the principle of the cone of knowledge which he talks about in a later PDC tape. He distilled the knowledge about the mind to the principle of “Survival” and then by a combination of inductive and deductive evaluation with extensive empirical development built that cone.
    As almost an intial step he used the Logics and the Pre-Logics in creating the axioms. All of Scientology is built upon those Axioms and all processes developed had to align with the Axioms.
    He studied extensively and used perhaps 1% of the material he studied. By evaluating data against the higher data of the Axioms he was able to separate the wheat from the chaf.

  599. @Marty: I’m not ignoring you on this question.
    I can put the old crappy c. 1997 web site back online and that has alot of information. But this project never got very far off the ground.
    I did manage to hook up online with a wonderful lady down in N.S.W. , Australia who had been befriended by the leader (and then over time, his “mates”) of a small group of bottlenose dolphins (we call them T-Pod) living in this bay, which is a marine sanctuary. She has even been escorted at close range (inside arm’s reach) by the T-Pod dolphins on swims along the rather rocky coast. Q.T. (“Cutey”) Dolphin (the leader of this group) responds to her shouting his name, if he is within earshot (with 200 meters or so).
    In this particular place, the stocks of baitfish (herring, mullet,etc) the dolphins feed on are very plentiful such that they do not have to spend very much of their day hunting. These leaves them with plenty of resting time and even several hours for recreation . I have reports from my contact down there of individual dolphins racing windsurfers, small groups allowing kayakers in their midst and slowing down so the kayakers can keep pace, individuals “spy hopping” at the sides of small craft to gaze at the occupants, particularly children and so forth. The overall impression I get from all these reports as that this particular population of between 60-90 dolphins are generally highly interested in the humans with whom they share this great big bay. The whole town there is a bit dolphin crazy, with carved and painted dolphins in evidence on most house’s doorways, porches, mailboxes, fences and even one of the traffic circles has a big dolphin mosaic in the middle (I have only seen this in photographs, as I have never actually been there).
    I will say more on this, later.
    Michael A. Hobson

  600. martyrathbun09

    Thanks Michael.

  601. I like this. It exactly matches my owm perception of OT ability. My first experiences of OT happenings were sporadic and unrepeatable and as I continued with auditing they became more frequent and stable.
    I also observed that those with considerable counter-intention to OT states had far more power than I had thought to ruin OT postulates.
    There are some very powerful aberees whose Modus Operandi is to drain the energy of OTs and divert it to their own interests. I don’t think I have to name them.
    My OT abilities aren’t testable by such as Randi – I can’t levitate or mind read people under scientific conditions. Such as Randi are what one could call OT blockers – they have a strong ability to block OT postulates.
    LRH talked about OT groups in RJ 67. OTs can be blocked in their development and operation if they try to operate alone but in a group of OTs prosper.
    I consider it quite likely that some have reached the state where they could get the 1m from Randi. I can’t see any reason why anyone with such abilities would subject themself to the undesirable attention from those who would abuse their abilities for ends against the interest of mankind and it would not make any sense for them to go for it.
    I occasionally do things with friends – one day a lady i know took a hot pan out of the oven and blistered her hand – I just took her hand and healed it.
    Someone I knew had a nasty scar on her leg – I dissolved it. Such things are rare and sporadic – I can only do them with people I really like – then I get the feeling I can do something good in an OT way and just do it.
    My own certainty of OT is unshakeable.

  602. I guess he got his EP from objectives 🙂
    I had about 150 hours of objectives after OT7. Flattened every CCH into the ground. Did Op Pro by Dup till I loved it. Took well over 25 hours 🙂
    LRH put in long hours on objectives even on OTs with the Survival R/D which was co-audited. I guess DM is probably charging people at NOTs rates for them.
    Objectives give fabulous wins even after OT7 when fully flattened. It would be wonderful for Cl 4 orgs having OTs running objectives in the course room and seeing the blowouts.
    Objective processes are far senior to subjective processes and will blow OTs out of whatever is left of their minds.
    And if Marty wants to call that tech gibberish I’ll dig out the LRH reference 🙂

  603. Aikido is highly aligned with the Factors.
    LRH said that the power of a being stems from the ability to hold a postion in space.
    Morihei Ueshiba said hold one point and drilled it extensively.
    LRH said that the basic action of a thetan was, having created a point from which to view, extend from that.
    Morihei Ueshiba said extend Ki.
    Aikido is quite possibly the most powerful martial art on the planet.
    I remember one day in a dojo the Sensei asked a black belt to take up an oak sword and atttempt to split his head with it.
    He stood there and held his position. The black belt swung the sword straight at his head and it missed ! The Sensei had not moved
    I worked with Aikido for about 3 months 25 years ago with an OT7/ 3rd Dan.
    It is a limited technology.
    I was really drunk drunk one night in 1985ish and went with some friends to a place that sold alcohol late at night. It was in Brixton which isn’t the best place for white folks to go at 2 am. Seconds after getting out of of the car 6 black guys surrounded me and demanded money. One had a knife.
    I smiled at him and said “Hey man, I just want a couple of bottles of wine” and walked into the shop undisturbed.

  604. Yeah – the waitresses at my local know me and the beer is there as soon as I sit down 🙂
    The ARC triangle is fundamenal. How the hell can you you expect to get attention from the waitress if u are not in ARC with her?

  605. Time is a consideration. Why should it take a minute?

  606. I remember a week after I joined the Sea Org I was on the epf and an older man fell over and was in pain. I ran over and gave him a touch assist.
    He was amazed and surprised that I hadn’t got his PC folder to send to the C/S for approval first!

  607. The Cof$ quicky OT2 to get people onto OT4 when they pay more.
    OT2 takes a lot longer than the week or 2 with attest on the first FTA as in the Cof$.

  608. Ralph, this is one of the best things I’ve ever seen you post here. Don’t know why it’s hitting me like this. But I’m truly into the simple, workable things lately. There are layers of workability packed into what you have just said.

  609. Splog, here’s an additional firsthand account from a scientist (Rupert Sheldrake) studying telepathy/psi, and his run-in with James Randi:

    “For the benefit of those who don’t know about him, there’s a conjurer called James Randi, who often appears on TV, and he’s a very anti- … he’s one of these idealogically motivated skeptics who believes psi is impossible. And he’s offered a million dollar prize — or says he has, there’s lots of question where he actually has the million dollars or where it is — for any successful test of psi. And people often say “Why don’t you apply for the Randi prize?” Well, it’s a very good question and I can tell you my answer.

    First of all, this man is not a scientist. He has no scientific credentials or understanding. On his website, it says the prize must be won for people who produce an unequivocal demonstration of psi abilities that requires no expert analysis. That seems to rule out any statistical experiments.

    Then he’s later said: “Oh, well, I will accept statistical experiments, but the odds against chance have got to be a million to one, to get the million dollar prize.” So if the odds against chance are 900,000 to one, you fail the test.

    Third, you sign over to Randi all publicity rights, you have all legal waivers. So he has complete control of all publicity arising from this.

    And fourth, and most important for me, he’s a liar. He’s a deceiver by profession, and he’s a deceiver by nature. And my reason for saying this, without being sued for libel, is that he wrote an article in a magazine about my dog research called “Dog World” (probably very few of you read “Dog World” but lots of people do) and in this he said that “We at the James Randi Educational Foundation have repeated Sheldrake’s experiments — they fail.” Then he said “We’ve also examined all his videotape from his experiments, and shown the dog goes to the window all the time. And it’s not as he says it is.” An unequivocal statement.

    I emailed him, asking him to give me the details of the experiments he’d done, what journal were they published in, where’s the data. Reasonable questions that a scientist would ask. He didn’t reply. I emailed again, he didn’t reply. So I emailed his Scientific Advisory board, and they advised him to reply. So he then replied and he said “Well, um, actually uh, these experiments were done many years ago when I looked after a friend’s dogs for a couple of weeks in New York, and I lost all the data — they were lost in a flood — so I’ve got no data and they’ve never been written up.”

    So, what kind of evidence is that? If I produce evidence for psi, and say “Well I did them years ago, I’ve lost all the data, but just believe me”, he wouldn’t go for that, I’m sure.

    And then the examination of the video tapes, he had to admit he’d never seen the video tapes — he’d simply made that up.

    Now with a man with such a low degree of honesty, I don’t think he should be an arbiter of scientific credibility or truth. I do believe however that real skeptics — people with proper skeptical scientific training and who have a track record of honesty rather than dishonesty — are worth engaging with. And that’s why I’m doing joint experiments with Professor Chris French right now.”

    Source: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JnA8GUtXpXY
    (Quote begins at 0:49:08 )

  610. martyrathbun09

    If you need objectives after OT VII, I pity you. Save the references – apparently they are working wonders for you.

  611. @Marty: This alleged incident was prominently featured in “The Profit” (in fact, the only clip from that film I’ve actually seen as hit was hosted online for a time at a web site about the movie run by the Greenways).
    I have yet to see any slightest verification that this alleged incident ever took place.

  612. martyrathbun09

    And if it did, who cares? It is like dead agenting Eintstein and his theories for some crack he made when he was a government clerk.

  613. Ralph,
    I think one day we should open another topic of OT prevention or share experiences of that kind. Maybe it fits some day. By my experiences living in the “outside” world is no danger. Most counter postulates of being able I had inside. If I had a very good session with a good key out within days I had quite some oppositon.
    Being inside you cannot tell anybody about that as then you are labled PTS or worse. Loosing ones key out is “always PTS” or “overts”.

  614. It is limited, true. Good storys though. Thanks for sharing! would love to get on the mat with an OT Sandan. Fun!

  615. Then you are a friend of mine! And welcome to Marty’s blog! Drop me a line sometime if you want: jaeboswell@yahoo.com There’s about 4 or 5 of us FEBC’s here that I’m aware of. Could almost man up our own org! 😉

  616. @Marty: I only pointed this out to demonstrate the hypocrisy and evident bias of so many of these “Prove It!” critics who routinely accept any negative information about Hubbard and/or Scientology without the slightest effort of verification.
    Michael A. Hobson

  617. I like LRH references. They do great for me. Maybe you know better than LRH?
    LRH talked about OT8 coming after OT7 but you say maybe people don’t need it?
    Yeah – objectives work wonders after OT8. Did you notice that the “old” OT5 and OT6 are objective processes?
    Did you ever listen to the 1st and 2nd ACC lectures?
    I had hopes for you but I guess I could have been mistaken.
    Don’t you realize how bad it makes you look when you put others down with 1.1 comments like the above?
    You have a few options:
    1. Just delete this post.
    2. Post it it and follow up with a 1.1 comment as above.
    3. Post it and reply honestly.

  618. martyrathbun09

    The problem is you can’t get above literalness, a 1.1 trait, and so do not understand LRH. Your sophistry is 1.1. You talked of Op Pro by Dup, not old OT VII. Not even the same breed of cat. A person is as OT as he’s got the lies out of him. (class viii lectures)

  619. Ralph,
    If the “he” you refer to is me then you have entirely missed the communication. My EP came from the OT levels done at an AO and not objectives after that. The character is in a movie, and NO, he wasn’t a person who went OT after objectives. OT is more than just a level done at AO, a state of mind, a beingness, an ability to perceive and act causatively, a whole lot of things.

    Why don’t you watch the movie “Peaceful Warrior” based upon a true story and just enjoy yourself. You could have commented it was a nice clip or something but instead had to go off on he got his EP after objectives. In context the younger guy just got thrown off a bridge into a creek and then this scene. Watch the movie and you will see.

    Go do a martial art 3-5 days per week for 3 years and you may be able to have a nice day. It will get you to train yourself and move to control of your body and actions and you will duplicate what the character is like. Nobody implied he did objectives. He merely worked to be cause in life and took a win from it.

  620. Hi Sapere,
    Perhaps I phrased it wrongly and the lightness of my communication didn’t come across – it was a great clip and it looks like the guy achieved a lot from whatever he did.
    I wouldn’t C/S him for objectives 🙂

  621. Come on! Anyone who has studied Dianetics fully knows that LRH publicly cancelled eidetic recall as a test of Clear back in early 1950.

  622. Yep . Axiom 2 works 🙂

  623. I seriously doubt if Beethoven had only studied music in one lifetime.
    Much like I seriously doubt if most people posting here first started exploring theta in this lifetime.

  624. I was of similar sentiment a while back. When Alan Walter was alive I’d chat with him sometimes on the phone. We had disagreements about the tech but he had an ability to grant beingness which was the closest I’ve come across to LRH’s.
    He regarded the people on the anti-scientology sites as people in really bad case shape who needed help and very light communication that were too scared, introverted or whatever to be able to accept it.

    Maybe one day I’ll reach the state where I can truly love those who transgress against me. I think I have a way to go but that is what I see as true greatness.

  625. I saw a lot of Scientologists especially in the Sea Org fall into the idea that as the KRC triangle was senior to the ARC triangle one could dispense with ARC and just intend things. “Stupid wogs can easily be controlled by OTs and we are OTs!”
    After one has been part of it it takes a lot of work to get back into ARC with “wogs” but its possible 🙂

  626. Ralph,

  627. Possibly slightly off the main topic, but I’m glad you put the word “wogs” in quotes there 🙂

    Personally, I can’t stand that bloody word – it’s very symptomatic of everything that’s wrong with the Church, and a lot like calling me a stupid idiot because I can’t bake fine cakes.

    Those same “wogs” are the people who built the society the church operates within – they provide the phones, gas, internet, food, clean water supply, medical and pretty much everything else outside scientology-style spiritual improvement. Build a society – that’s a pretty OT thing to do, don’t you agree?

    On the flip-side, I should ack what you said about greatness in your last few comments. I’m also having some success using it, but like you, with less success than I would like. It’s hard to undo these attitudes, but I’ll take the small successes any day over what I used to be like.

  628. Marty: “Miscavige’s church, unlike LRH’s, has effectively censored the subject of discussion of OT abilities. Compare current church publications to the ones Jeff recounts editing under LRH’s watch in church publications of the 70′s.”

    Karen: “The ‘Church’ has made outrageous and dishonest claims of OT results. Wild magical results that do not occur cause a blowback and intense disappointment.”

    These two statements are contradictory.

  629. martyrathbun09

    You must lead a narrow minded, horrible existence analizing like you do.

  630. You shouldn’t underestimate my willingness to stand corrected, speculating about the quality of my existence is irrelevant here, I am just trying to make sense of what I read.

    I see a contradiction when you say the Church is censoring “the subject of discussion of OT abilities” as seen in “church publications of the 70’s”, while Karen says the “Church has made outrageous and dishonest claims of OT results.”

    The OT stories in Advance! are themselves outrageous claims of OT abilities in my opinion, and they do come from Scientologists, and are merely published by the Church.

    Are these stories still published in Advance!?

  631. Marty’s quote refers to success stories in magazines like Advance! Karen’s quote refers to church advertising material. It’s a case of over-promise (per the adverts) and under-deliver (per actual results gotten and attested to in success stories).

    An insider would intuitively spot the difference and understand, an outsider perhaps wouldn’t.

  632. martyrathbun09

    When people speak freely, contradictions abound. Get used to it.

  633. So now rhill you seem to be saying here that the public who received the gains they expected or more should be censored as well for making what *you* believe are false “claims” themselves.


    May I suggest taking several laxatives and drinking a warm glass of prune juice before going to bed.

  634. No idea how you came to this conclusion. What I’m saying is that the Scientologists themselves made specific outrageous claims (outrageous: “Extremely unusual or unconventional; extraordinary”) regarding OT abilities, and the Church used these as marketing tools by publishing them in its publications. I don’t see that the Church itself made promises which are more outrageous than what can be found in these success stories (or what is found Scientology’s scriptures for that matters). These success stories I can still see them in an Advance! 2004, my latest copy of it, it appears they are still published, aren’t they?

  635. In the mid nineties, at a Church of Scientology event, I witnessed an OT 8
    create a halo behind his head after speaking to a crowd of about 50 people.

    The halo was a gold colored light and appeared similar to what I’ve seen
    in biblical illustrations of saints.

    I remember this event quite vividly, as though it was yesterday.
    In fact I’ve thought about this manifestation quite frequently every since
    that October evening in 1995.

    An interesting observation that I’ve made is that the OT phenomenon is
    portrayed in the LRH/Scientology materials as gold balls of light.

    It’s taken me a long time to reconcile experiences such as these with an
    aggresssive sales machine, as the Church is now.

    What I’ve come to recognize is that LRH, is a superstar writer and
    explorer of such great magnitude. I’ve come to appreciate his existence
    more now than ever before. I’ve purchased quite a lot of material online
    from eBay.

    Since leaving the Church, many years ago, I spend much time reading and researching
    human development materials at New Age bookstores and the like.

    I’ve come to the conclusion that the LRH materials are far superior in content and
    seem to have so much more reality for myself.

    I’m only speaking out now because I don’t like how so many people are bashing LRH

  636. I have been to Jef’s two blogs on this subject of OT Abilities. Haven’t finished reading those.

    When I noticed that both were closed to further comment I followed the link that lead me here. I have not read all the posts here yet and I don’t know if this has been mentioned by anyone else but I wanted to say this:

    The problem with “demonstrating” OT abilities to “skeptics” or anyone who does not have a reality on the subject has to do with what has been stated in the previous threads mentioned several times, that is: EVERYONE is ALREADY OT!

    So to speak.

    An “OT Ability” as more or less defined in these blogs is a break with agreed upon reality. Walking on the surface of the earth is “normal”. Swimming in water is “normal”. Walking on water is “A Miracle”.

    That is; an “OT Ability” is a break with agreed-upon reality as far as what is possible or impossible.

    Walking on water would not be a “Miracle” or “OT Ability” if it were commonplace, if everyone could do it and if everyone took it for granted.

    The “skeptic” wanting to see a demonstration of “OT Abilities” is already OT as previously stated and therefore can prevent someone else from demonstrating to them.

    This is not a “cop out”. It is a logical inevitability. The “skeptic” is maintaining “agreed upon reality” – resisting any manifestation of so called “OT powers” via his or her own “OT Powers”.

    Lets say that this is just my theory, but I have done experiments in groups that included untrained people with no previous experience with anything OT, otherworldly, miraculous or whatever you want to call it and have been able to demonstrate WITH them some “miracle”.

    The key, it seem is that they (the skeptic) must participate willingly.

    Reality is AGREEMENT.

    If a group of individuals (two or more) are going to agree to cause some discontinuity in reality then there has to be some degree of real mutual agreement. This would include mutual belief that this is possible or at lest the temporary suspension of strong resistance, doubt or disbelief.

    There may be exceptions to this. For example, a group of “OT’s” who actually have some experience in “OT Powers” of one sort or another may be able to combine their efforts or “postulates” and overcome the counter efforts or postulates of the skeptic. There is the danger however of putting the skeptic into the loony bin if the skeptic is not able to cope with the experience. I have not had the opportunity to conduct any experiments along these lines however. I HAVE had several opportunities, though, to conduct the type of experiment previously described. That is, with a little coaching and a willingness to PARTICIPATE. It is quite possible to demonstrate various “OT Abilities” or “Miracles” to one or two completely untrained individuals if they are willing to suspend doubts and actively lend some support with their own intention, imagination, will power, belief… so as to bring about the desired result.

    As it turns out this seems to be relatively easy. Problems can sometimes arise, however.

    For example, in one case, the intention was to produce or “manifest” large plum size and plum flavored grapes on an ordinary grape vine. In the course of the experiment one of the participants blurted out glibly: “Probably all the grape vines in the neighborhood will get some disease and die”.

    This was precisely what happened. In the midst of “group postulating” the blurted out “joke” of the one participant took hold, apparently, as within a few days it appeared in the local papers that some unknown disease was causing all the grape vines in the neighborhood to turn black and die.

    Curiously, however, an apparent blackberry/raspberry hybrid grew up under the grape trellis which did produce large plum colored and plum flavored berries, which subsequently took over the trellis.

    There were other positive results, including additional experiments with other participants, but I thought it wise to provide that warning up front. These type of experiments can sometimes backfire. The glib remark from a completely untrained participant was a “postulate” and it “stuck” although contrary to the predetermined “group intention”.

  637. ————————————
    Independent Scientologist | March 18, 2011 at 4:15 pm | Reply

    Here’s my two cents.

    No proof is possible because nobody could EVER demonstrate an OT ability that couldn’t be ascribed to some other cause – magic, trickery, collusion, coincidence, mass delusion, optical illusion, etc. etc. etc.

    I can’t agree with this statement. It is difficult but not entirely impossible.

    IMO a “scientific” approach is necessary as this is the kind of thing that science is intended for and has to deal with routinely. i.e. rule out such “explanations” as mentioned above (coincidence etc.).

    I think it was unfortunate that at some point the Science went out of Scientology.

  638. Interesting post. Long – thanks for going to the trouble. You might be interested in a couple of similar threads on OT VIII Geir Isene’s blog, both entitled “A radical new view of the upper OT levels.” One is pretty recent and is still getting comments from OT’s and non-OT’s.

  639. Thanks, looks interesting though rather speculative or abstract/theoretical.

    It seems pretty clear from reading posts on these OT Abilities related blogs that the auditing does not “MAKE” OT’s.

    It (Auditing) may help some remember or get in touch with the idea that they are and always have been such (OT), just with some laps of memory or self restraint.

    As the theory seems to go, not only from Scientology but other spiritual disciplines or traditions: We are in some sense “co-creating” reality. Participating in creation.

    It seems that what we are experiencing is something akin to a shared “Lucid Dream”.

    In a regular nightly dream, as we are all, presumably, well aware; the dream images are a product of, or things created by thoughts and feelings which project the dream images.

    Once we awaken from the dream we realize that it was an illusion.

    If we choose to trouble ourselves to do so we can raise our awareness, even WITHIN our own dreams to the point that it is possible to KNOW that we are dreaming WHILE we are dreaming. (i.e. “Lucid Dreaming”) and by degrees, take control of the dreams. Change our dreams. “Program” our own dreams.

    Aware in a dream we might decide to fly or perform other “miracles” in our dreams.

    Buddhism, or at least certain branches thereof, teach that Waking Reality is of the same nature as a dream.

    By “the same nature” it is meant that the apparency of “external” physical, waking Reality is a product of thought, mind or consciousness the same as a dream.

    Hubbard phrased this:

    “Considerations take rank over the mechanics of space, energy and time. By this is meant that an idea or opinion is, fundamentally, superior to space, energy and time, or organizations of form, since it is conceived that space, energy and time are themselves broadly agreed-upon considerations.

    “That so many minds agree brings about reality in the form of space, energy and time. These mechanics, then, of space, energy and time are the product of agreed-upon considerations mutually held by life. ”

    Hubbard also stated that this statement regarding “considerations and mechanics” is in parallel with eastern philosophy or a rephrasing of the Buddhist concepts described briefly above.

    As I recall, a study of comparative religion used to be something of a requirement in Scientology.

    Getting a handle on “OT Abilities” is the same order of difficulty as getting control over ones nightly dreaming.

    Fundamentally, applying an “OT Ability” in waking life is akin to gaining control over a “Lucid Dream”. It is a matter of increasing awareness, but also, and more importantly IMO (and experience) it is a matter of education or knowledge. That is, simply knowing that this is the way things work.

    That is, if you can get a grip on what has been stated here and really understand it it is possible to become “enlightened” or come to a full realization that one is already so-called “OT”. Already creating or participating in the creation of THE ILLUSION we call ‘waking physical reality’.

    In that respect, it becomes rather obvious that no auditing is particularly necessary or absolutely required to “go OT”. Helpful possibly so as to wake up or become more aware but it can not confer or give what is already inherent in the individual.

    Just look around and realize.

    We may not be literally dreaming or having a shared dream. There does seem to be some differences between “the MEST universe” and the apparent worlds one experiences in night dreams, but there is some fundamental similarity. They (Thoughts creating dreams on the one hand and Thoughts creating Waking Reality on the other) apparently work in very much the same way.

    The way Hubbard put it is that the world around us that we consider ‘physical reality’ or “MEST” is very much like a vision induced by hypnosis. A product of “considerations, postulates and opinions”.

    Gain some degree of control over considerations, by whatever means, and to that degree gain control over the “ILLUSION” that is the product of those beliefs.

    Again, I would like to stress that this is THEORY. It should not be accepted on “blind faith” but should be a basis for experiment.

    I’ve done quite a few experiments in this area over the years taking a very skeptical approach to the whole thing. It all sounds rather patently insane. Nevertheless these ideas or Theories, in my experience, seem to stand up to testing. “Miracles” of the most outlandish sort are possible and with a little imagination demonstrable, even to skeptics, even to oneself, if one happens to be a skeptic.

    So, my point being, I’m not particularly all that interested in new and better high level auditing techniques. Especially given the general consensus that the ordinary auditing doesn’t really produce any OTs or OT Abilities.

    I think if there is some group agreement that doing something can produce… whatever,… than doing that something will probably, in many cases produce the expected results, Not due to the “process” necessarily but due to the group agreement that the process is supposed to do whatever.

    It is this group agreement that sometimes makes Scientology processing work for some people or that sometimes makes” laying on of hands” or faith healing work or that sometimes make voodoo or witchcraft or prayer or spiritualism or dowsing or the Ouija board work.

    It is the CONTEXT. The social or group agreement that doing such and such will produce such and such result.

    It is possible however to discard these old methodologies and more or less INVENT new games, new agreements, new possibilities. No method is needed to acquire what one already has. It is enough to simply realize and apply.

    Sorry if this post was a little long winded.


  640. Couple of viewpoints in return.

    In my experience, on both sides of the meter, I don’t see that it is very much a matter of consensus or group agreement that the auditing will work (although there is obviously some truth to that, always). Auditing has been shown to do what it was professed to do even when the pc was ignorant of what that was (for example, gets the unlooked-for EP).

    Even laying-on-of-the hands has some objective basis for believing there is more to it than faith – the Kirlian photography that shows the energy flows (sometimes called chi, or life force, or a healing force) around the hands when the person is directed to “send energy out from them,” and the increased warmth of the hands (felt by the recipient). LRH did essentially the same demonstration with the E-meter (I think that’s in Essentials of the E-meter).

    But I think you’re pretty right that, “Fundamentally, applying an ‘OT Ability’ in waking life is akin to gaining control over a “Lucid Dream”. It is a matter of increasing awareness, but also, and more importantly IMO (and experience) it is a matter of education or knowledge. That is, simply knowing that this is the way things work. In fact, these are the two sides of the Bridge – and I personally would also stress the training side. Also love that idea of a comparative-religion study – that must have been before my time (or location?), except maybe for the bits and pieces in Advance Mag articles.

    Okay, CONTEXT, you say. For me that would involve more than agreement within the given group (Scn). Context goes much more basic, to all the agreements underlying the MEST universe – which individuals have “forgotten” and need to be reminded of. Which is why the methodology is needed, at least to a certain point. After that, sure, discard and invent as you will (now being self-determined in the largest sense). In fact, didn’t LRH himself say that eventually Scn would have to be run out?

    Actually, I think of a Scientologist who has done some inventing (Vinaire, has his own blog), though I believe he is using the principles of Scientology. He has invented a method of Knowing How to Know (calls if KHTN), which is a simple method of LOOKING at one’s considerations. You might find it interesting.

  641. “Also love that idea of a comparative-religion study – that must have been before my time (or location?),…”

    I don’t know as it was ever implemented but as I recall, I believe it was recommended or some statement was made that a study of comparative religion should be part of the Scientology curriculum.

    This was in the old “Volunteer Ministers Handbook” which it seems is no longer published. I found a copy in a used book store. It was the first Scientology book I ever owned.

    At any rate, it seems clear that Scientology itself is Hubbard’s own distillation of truths derived from his own extensive study of comparative religion.

    8-8008 for example mentions that he studied “in the Orient with phenomena not generally known in the Western World” … also: “His studies of the subject were extremely broad and varied. They included such things as expeditions to investigate the ethnology of twelve widely-separated primitive cultures,… the study of early writers and philosophers on the subject of mankind and epistemology, also… he has credited the following persons as source material: Anaxagoras… Aristotle, Jesus of Nazareth,… Buddha,… Mohammed,… Confucius, Lao Tze,… William James, Plato, Socrates, The Vedic Hymns…”

    The idea that reality is a product of “agreement” seems to go back to the Vedas. The idea also appears in the Gospels…

    What I am getting at is that Hubbard studied comparative religion, philosophy and many other things. His distillation of knowledge from all of that research cannot really be fully appreciated without some familiarity with the source material from which he quite admittedly derived many of his ideas and insights.

    I believe he said as much, or at least something to that effect regarding the importance of a study of comparative religion in the old V.M.H.

    I may be mistaken though that sticks in my memory as one of the things that captured my interest when I first became acquainted with Scientology, and that was the only book I had on the subject.

    Since the book said it, I assumed it must have been policy at some point, but it was not until many years after reading the V.M.H. that I actually visited a Church or Mission.

    At that time, when I did finally visit a Church of Scientology, I was rather disappointed to find out that the Scientologists I met hadn’t read any of the books I had read, I wanted to talk with someone about this stuff. I was told that those books were of little or no importance except as a “historical records of Hubbard’s research” and instead I was pointed to some chart on the wall (The Bridge).

    Rather than finding someone interested in Hubbard’s ideas to co-audit with, which had been my intention, it was suggested that I might take out a loan or mortgage my house so as to start on this all important “Bridge”.

    I didn’t understand. Or maybe I did. It seemed to me that there was something very wrong with this picture.

    I went back home and continued to study Hubbard’s writings with interest but what little involvement I ever had with the “Church” was at arms length.

    I no longer have a copy of “The Volunteer Ministers Handbook” so I can’t provide an exact quote but I’m fairly certain that it was in there that a study of Comparative Religion was more or less essential to a well rounded course of study, or something to that effect.

    Of course, the whole thrust of the V.M.H. seemed to be that Scientology was a kind of Grass Roots movement.

    The idea was to put all this helpful technology into the hands of the public to use freely without any dependence on any Church or other organized body, just – here it is… use it.

    In fact that seems to be what all Hubbard’s early books were about. Dianetics: here it is, grab a friend and start co- auditing.

    Science of Survival, Creation of Human Ability, all those books – Here they are, go at it.

    Then I get to a Church and all I heard was no, no, no,… “Real Scientologists don’t use those books, now we have something called Standard Tech… ”

    Well, where on this Bridge is this “Clear Theta Clear” or “OT” talked about in the books???

    Well, that’s way up here (over the rainbow somewhere) on the far side of the bridge.

    Well, how much will this “Standard Tech” auditing cost? To get from here to there?

    Well, about… $$$$$$$$$$ …gasp, jaw drop.

    Forget it, I’ll just stick with reading the books and co-audit with a friend the old fashion way thank you.

  642. As I continue to read through the posts here, I am struck by the numbers of people who state that OT Abilities can not be demonstrated or “proven” scientifically.

    This subject is of great interest to me. Not “OT Abilities” exclusively or within the context of Scientology exclusively but the kind of things commonly referred to as “Miracles” – Alleged “OT Abilities” certainly seem to fit into that category IMO.

    I don’t agree with what seems to be the general consensus that it is impossible to demonstrate or even investigate this type of phenomenon on a scientific basis as I have been doing just that for many years. I have found it relatively easy to get results, that is; to cause some “impossible” manifestation that generally can not be attributed to “coincidence” or fraud even in an atmosphere of skepticism or disbelief regarding such phenomenon.

    It is apparently true that the unchecked negative thoughts of “skeptics” can and do prevent results but if a “Skeptic” is the least bit willing it is not at all difficult to explain this situation and get cooperation.

    Virtually anyone, even a “skeptic” can suspend “negative thinking” for a moment or two and even be persuaded to cooperate by joining in a “visualization” or “intention” affording a kind of window of opportunity for an experienced or “seasoned” OT/Psychic or whatever to get results.

    It is a kind of tug-of-war.

    Just get the skeptic to at least relax his grip on the rope for a moment, or better yet, trade sides and HELP pull from the other direction.

    At that point, instead of a Tug-Of-War where nothing happens you have a joint effort where results are obtained almost effortlessly as the counter effort or counter intention or “resistance” has been temporarily relaxed or reversed.

    In my experience, even this temporary suspension of “negative thinking” is enough to allow startling results to be obtained.

    I don’t know if this would be possible with everyone but as yet, I have not found anyone with even the least willingness to try with whom I have not been able to obtain some result.

    The result obtained would generally have to be something the individual was willing to agree with. That is, let him or her or THEM come up with what “miracle” or whatever that they would like to see happen or experience and that they feel comfortable with. Something that they would be willing to be responsible for creating themselves to one degree or another.

    IMO this is really not difficult at all. It is just a matter of understanding and accepting the principles involved, being willing to communicate openly about it and being able to come to some agreement in regard to what phenomenon is to be produced.

    At times it can be rather challenging. For example, in one experiment with two untrained individuals, a husband and wife, the suggestion was made by the wife that we materialize a dish washer because she was tired of washing dishes in the sink.

    This quickly devolved into a spat. The husband was concerned about the extra cost of hot water and electricity to run a dishwasher… the wife wanted the dishwasher to match the other appliances in the kitchen. The husband argued that nobody made appliances with that kind of design or finish any more and so finding a dishwasher that matched the other appliances would be impossible… Apparently this was an old argument. Voices were raised. Shouting, anger, things were beginning to look rather ugly. The “experiment” was turning into a marital dispute.

    After some time of observing this I interjected:

    “Look guys, there is no point in arguing about this, we are talking about using our minds to materialize a major household appliance out of thin air. We can materialize a dishwasher that matches the refrigerator and stove perfectly. When the dishwasher materializes you two can decide whether you want to plug it in or use it or not, This is just an experiment.”

    Things settled down and we were able to proceed.

  643. Tom,

    I totally understand.

    Back in the mid ’70’s I studied comparative religion while doing the Scientology Minister’s Course.

    (I remember the text was quite a Scholarly text written by a PHD in comparative religions, psychology and theology which totally wiped out my teenage vocabulary.

    But you know I wanted to wear that way cool dog collar and dress in black so I persevered 🙂

    Besides it was a *legal* requirement if one was auditor trained to be a minister.)

    Anyway I was glad to do the course despite all the headaches and word chains because it allowed me to compare how Scientology compared to other religions.

    I also remember when the Volunteer Minister’s Handbook came out.

    (Boy do I remember!

    Because I realized that I could have became a minister without having to learn Oxford English!

    But that’s another story.)

    And I remember the purpose being just as you stated which was to start a grass roots movement of people applying basic Scientology like assists and doing TRs and the like which in my mind was good idea.

    However there was always those frantic regs who were constantly trying to make people instant Scientology converts by force feeding ’em “cognitions” instead of allowing them to cognite on their own.

    So I think that is what you ran into Tom.

    Personally I think it was Div II’s over exuberance in trying to get a quote stat unquote that killed a lot of these Div VI programs in their infancy.

    Which got even worse when the position of Dianetics was switched to after the grades.

    (I mean how real is ARC Straightwire or Grade 0 to someone who is trying to handle their lumbosis?)

    Ron tried to handle this factor by putting assists at the bottom of the bridge but by then the “one size fits all” approach had totally taken over and the Orgs have totally stuck with that service fac ever since pretty much.

    Anyway Tom out here in the Independent Field we pretty much stick to handling the *individual* and if you ever want to chat about the subject of religion in general or some aspect of Scientology you can always contact me at:


  644. Tom,

    I think the problem here has something to do with the three universes that Ron discusses in 8-8008 and Creation of Human Ability.

    In other words you can create an actuality for yourself in your own universe that is not going to materialize in the other two as a reality of any kind.

    Therefore I think the easiest phenomenon to prove is exteriorization since it doesn’t require any actual agreement only accuracy which is why the Remote Viewing program is of such interest.

  645. “Anyway Tom out here in the Independent Field we pretty much stick to handling the *individual* and if you ever want to chat about the subject of religion in general or some aspect of Scientology you can always contact me at:


    Thanks RJ.

    BTW, a few posts back you stated:

    “Anyway Jeff is a good person he is not saying that psychic abilities don’t exist he is simply saying that Scientology doesn’t “produce” them.

    “Of course Ron *never* said that Scientology ever *produced* any psychic or OT ability since they are inherent.

    “Only that Scientology correctly and standardly applied can enhance these abilities of yours which you already have that you haven’t used for trillions upon trillions of years.”

    I can agree with all that for the most part except for this one point:

    My understanding on this is a bit different.

    These so-called “OT Abilities” are not IMO, something that people “haven’t used in trillions upon trillions of years”.

    When one experiences “OT Abilities” I think one comes to the realization that this is something ongoing that everyone does every day – something that we are all doing right now, creating this “illusion” – thinking and producing or projecting “MEST” effects with our thoughts. It is not something we can avoid or escape.

    It is not a matter of “enhancement” exactly. Certainly not a matter of remembering something from the distant past or getting back something far off that one could supposedly do long long ago, It is not something unknown or unknowable IMO. but rather a matter of becoming aware of what one is doing NOW, moment by moment. What one has been doing every day.

    What are you/me/we thinking NOW. How are those thoughts “manifesting” as external “Reality” NOW. Look around, how are your thoughts creating this experience this very moment?

    To some extent, auditing is basically remembering how one created ones own current circumstances. Experiencing how ones thoughts are creating ones own reality right now.

    “decide to touch the object then touch the object” etc.

    Remember when you made a decision/postulate) ? The thought manifested. Good, Bad, Happy, Sad whatever, it happens all the time to everybody every day – think such and such and the thought is reflected back. The thought, good or bad, becomes reality.

    It is not a matter of remembering the distant past but rather a matter of getting squarely into the NOW with full awareness and control.

    Are ones thoughts actually under control in the present moment ? Is one able to Start, Continue and Stop thinking. the entire thought process or a particular thought- at will ? Or is that inner stream of consciousness or “roof brain chatter” going on and on without let up.

    Can the “train of thought” be silenced? Is it possible to concentrate on one thought exclusively without wavering ? Is it possible to stop thinking entirely ?

    What thoughts are going through your mind right now ? What are your beliefs and opinions right now ? (rhetorical questions of course, I don’t expect a reply to that)

    It is this kind of positive control over ones internal thought processes that makes control of “external reality” (or “OT Powers”) possible.

    One can not lay back and say “OK, make me an OT”. I suspect that one cannot become CAUSE by being the EFFECT of a PROCESS.

    I once asked a Scientologist who was supposed to be OT III or OT IV or some such if he had an internal dialogue going on in his head. That is; was he talking to himself internally. Was there a stream of thought, verbalizations going through his mind… and could he stop it ?

    He did have, and he could not stop it.

    I found this to be rather interesting. All that processing and still unable to control his own thoughts. Not really even aware that the thoughts were there, apparently. Never paid any attention to it before that moment.

  646. “Tom,

    I think the problem here has something to do with the three universes that Ron discusses in 8-8008 and Creation of Human Ability.”

    I’m not following. What problem ?

  647. Good points Tom,

    However you may have noticed that we haven’t been using our inherent psychic or OT abilities for some time now.

    Like for example knocking off hats at 50 paces which is discussed in History of Man.

    There was probably a time even in recent history that warriors had psychic spies who could determine the order of battle of the enemy from the safety of their teepee.

    In fact it’s been said that the Apache were particularly good at this art of warfare and knew exactly where the calvary was going to be and their exact size so they could either attack or retreat depending on their number.

    Some say that Geronimo was able to do this.

    Nowadays we have Geospacial Satellites and the internet.

    Electronic or mechanical replications of what was once considered psychic phenomenon.

    Can it be argued that we haven’t had to use or rely on the abilities for quite some time?

    The approach of exercising or drilling these abilities in present time the one you suggest is actually covered in Creation of Human Ability under what is known as Route 1.

    Note that OT III or what is called “IV” these days does not necessarily directly address these abilities while the original levels the ones no longer offered by the Church did.

    However the key point I was trying to make here was that these abilities are inherent and actually do exist in present time.

    The only thing is that a thetan has forgotten he has them.

    So part of the process would be recalling times when he did in my opinion in order to make a full recovery.

  648. The problem:

    being able to demonstrate psychic and OT Ability

  649. ————————–
    RJ | May 23, 2011 at 4:24 am | Reply

    Good points Tom,

    However you may have noticed that we haven’t been using our inherent psychic or OT abilities for some time now.

    No, actually. I haven’t noticed that.

    I’m noticing, I think, that you don’t seem to have gotten my “good points” at all. Not really.

  650. OK, to be fair ; we have progressed from “haven’t used (OT/Psychic Powers) for trillions upon trillions of years.” to “probably a time even in recent history…”

    So to say that you didn’t get my point “at all” was a little harsh. Sorry.

    You did also say: “However the key point I was trying to make here was that these abilities are inherent and actually do exist in present time.”

    That was more or less my point as well, though we seem to have a different idea about what “these abilities… actually do exist in present time” means.

    Your point seems to be that these abilities exist in some latent form but are no longer used or have atrophied due to having been replaced by technology – – i.e. we communicate easily via internet so have no further need for telepathy.

    My point was that these “abilities” not only exist but that they are continually being USED quite extensively by everyone at all times. That these “Abilities” not only EXIST but that they are quite actively and UNAVOIDABLY being USED by everyone at all times, (with the possible exception of someone in a state of Nirvikalpa Samadhi).

    Think of it this way. If you are asleep and dreaming you are, as long as the dream continues, using your, lets call it “Dream Illusion-Creating Faculty”. I don’t think that that is a controversial proposition.

    When you awaken from a dream, you then begin using you “Waking Illusions-Creating Faculties”.

    According to Buddhism, and, IMO, According to L. Ron Hubbard, both faculties are the same. This is, I think, a rather controversial proposition.

    It is the “Quantum Woo” concept of the “observer created universe” taken literally.

    Getting a handle on OT Abilities is simply a matter of getting a handle on,… getting some awareness of and control over what one is already doing.

    This seems to be a rather difficult thing to grasp, intellectually, and even more difficult to remember moment by moment…

    Ones “OT Abilities” are like breathing.

    Ones breathing goes on continually, minute by minute, hour by hour, day by day, one can’t live without it, can’t escape it. It is IMPOSSIBLE for ones breathing to stop or “atrophy” more than temporarily, or for brief moments without it killing the person. Life cannot continue without it.

    What can happen is that ones breathing can become automatic. We don’t generally think about breathing. We aren’t generally aware of it, we don’t have to continually be conscious of… “OK now I am breathing in…. OK now I am breathing out… Now I am breathing in… Now I am breathing out…” But to say that no one has used their lungs in “trillions upon trillions of years” or even that “we haven’t been using our inherent ability to breath for some time now” or “There was probably a time even in recent history that warriors were able to breath” would be absurd statements. Just because most people go through the day completely unaware of their breathing does not mean that breathing has atrophied or that everyone is living off an artificial iron lung, or that everyone has “forgotten” how to breath. It has simply been put on “automatic pilot”.

    Likewise, so-called “OT Abilities” have been put, for the most part on automatic pilot.

    What is needed, amazingly enough, to “rehabilitate” these “abilities” is just to put our attention on how we are currently using those abilities.

    “OK, decide to touch the spot on the wall and then touch it”. etc.

    Someone said earlier,” to decide to raise your hand and then to raise it is an OT Ability” or something to that effect. Absolutely. Become aware of your “breathing”. It is not gone or forgotten, not far away, has not atrophied due to disuse. Has not been replaced by the internet.

    Be present, wake up, be aware, pay attention, don’t always go around on “automatic pilot” – sleepwalking. You are creating. become aware of it once in a while. It isn’t in the past.

    Acquiring full awareness and control is a different issue.

    Such “abilities” can be exercised. Gradually. Like taking up the practice of Pranayama. But the “Automatic Pilot” feature is generally very useful. It is probably not really a good idea to mess around with it too much or too often or without some good reason.

  651. Tom, I see what you mean about the “automatic pilot” stuff we all do on a continuous basis, actually being OT – operating as a thetan. But what is generally “considered” OT would go beyond all the universally agreed upon MEST universe activities – i.e. things that are not done automatically by most people, and would be “out-reality” for the vast majority if they were to even witness such. But I’m sure you’re right that it’s really no different. And that is why, per my understanding, there were DRILLS on previous OT levels of the Church, which basically got the person out of the agreements as to what is and isn’t possible to do. It seems that once again great minds think alike – as you have come to a similar conclusion – drill, baby, drill (to borrow from a more earthly realm 😉 )

    Anyway, I got that you and RJ just weren’t on the same page as far as EXPRESSING your ideas, but that the ideas themselves are probably not very different, if at all. I don’t know him personally, but from reading a lot of his posts I get that he has a pretty good background and understanding of OT levels in Scn from earlier years on up. And that he’s pretty highly trained in auditing and also has studied other philosophies and religions. He can keep up with you better than most of us!

    Which reminds me of something I was wondering from your earlier post about deciding to forget “organized Scn” and just move forward with co-auditing – did you ever find a co-audit partner and jump in? I was curious about that and how it went.

  652. Of course, I’m sorry, I just don’t personally see that as a problem. As I’ve been trying to explain.

    It is possible, IMO (and as shown from the results obtained in various experiments over the years), to demonstrate “Miracles” or “OT Powers” – in THIS universe.

    The issue regarding demonstrating “OT Abilities”, I think, mainly has to do squarely with what goes on in THIS, the so-called “MEST” universe, the,… as far as our collective experience is concerned, ONLY visible, plain old physical, more or less agreed-upon cause-and-effect universe.

    If I profess to be able to “materialize” an object “out of thin air”, but this only happens in “MY” universe and other people cannot see it in “THEIR” universe or the “MEST” universe, than I think most people would just say that this nut case is hallucinating.

    Even “Astral Projection”, “Remote Viewing” or “exteriorization” have no chance of being “scientifically validated”, “proven” or “demonstrated” as anything more than “subjective” unless the experience can somehow be correlated with the physical universe and verified by some physical universe means, like… OK – Exteriorize… While “Out-of-the-body” Go to Joe’s house and view what Joe is doing.

    Joe can then verify that YES he was doing such and such as reported by the remote viewer or No he was not doing such and such. Very difficult to come up with convincing results or rule out fraud, lucky guesses and so forth. Something worth doing though, IMO.

    However, my experiments have focused on obtaining more concrete non-ambiguous PHYSICAL and observable results.

  653. Tom,

    A problem in the Scientological sense or in Scientologese is any counter intention emotion or effort.

    An example would be the Amazing Retard and his fraudulent “Educational” or more accurately disinformational Foundation of his and that phony “Million Dollar Challenge”.

    Actually I disagree with you here about Remote Viewing since there is quite a data set that is available through the FOIA from our friends in the Intelligence Community who have been studying it for over two decades.

    Even the folks at FAS seem to take the phenomenon seriously as you can see:


  654. I did co-audit quite a bit with a friend. Mostly using “Self-Analysis” but also auditing out “Painful Emotion Engrams” and such when they came up. In that situation I usually did about 90% of the actual auditing though.

    Prior to that I had acquired a whole pile of Scientology books from a used book store very inexpensively around 1979 or ’80, including all or most of the “OT Level” books: Creation of Human Ability, 8-8008, etc.

    What I mostly ended up doing is,…

    Well,… I read in Self Analysis:

    ” This is actually not “self-auditing”. It is auditing done on the reader by the author. Actually, the reader is being audited by L. Ron Hubbard. ”


    It seemed to me that there wasn’t really any reason that this statement couldn’t be applied to other higher level processes found in “Creation of Human Ability” and other books. So, I studied those “OT” books quite thoroughly and just did a lot of “Solo-Auditing” as if I was being audited, actually doing the processes rather than just reading the books.

    Just for example, you can read in C of H.A. for almost any process contained therein, something like:

    ” this procedure is run with these auditing commands, ‘Find a spot in the room’, ‘Make up your mind when you are going to touch it and then touch it’, ‘Make up your mind when you are going to let go of it, and let go’. ”

    Sounded silly. But I figured why not ?

    I saw no reason why such processes could not be run in the same way as “Self Analysis” with or without an actual auditor. So I just did them directly from the books or copied such passages from the books onto cue-cards or memorized them and did a lot of “solo-auditing” in that way.

    Right or wrong, that’s what I did. I did not see how it could possibly do any harm.

    Anyway, I was also impressed by the statement:

    “There are two distinct divisions in Scientology. The first is philosophic, the second is technical. Under the philosophic heading one discovers the ways and means of forming new ways of life and of evaluating or creating standards of livingness and beingness.

    “By this knowingness alone, and without processing, it should be understood clearly that a new way of life could be created, or an old way of life could be understood and better endured or altered.”


    The way I read that was basically that “processing” as such may not be necessary. Just studying the philosophy, reading the books arriving at a new understanding could go a long long way. – after all, did Hubbard have anyone to audit him as he progressed in his research ? Logically, I don’t see how he could have had. Or how did he come up with these processes in the first place if not by running them solo on himself ?

    At any rate, once I started doing that, just Solo-Auditing directly from the books, I felt like it was actually doing me some good. Making me feel more alert, more aware. Kind of like mind gymnastics. It was fun.

    For example “holding corners” was fun:

    “The commands then are: ‘Close your eyes’, ‘Locate an upper corner of the room behind you’… ‘Now locate the other upper corner behind you’ ‘All right, hold on to these two corners, and don’t think’. ” etc.


    Many of these seemingly very simple exercises were supposed to result in “exteriorization” and/or other “OT” abilities. So why not? the majority of such exercises seemed quite simple enough. I didn’t really see any absolute necessity for an auditor to run such simple exercises.

    The alternative ? Spend hundreds of thousands of dollars and put myself in the hands of a “Church” that seemed to be imploding?

    What about the “One Shot Clear”:

    “Ask preclear to be three feet behind his head. If stable there, have him be in various pleasant places until any feeling of scarcity of viewpoints is resolved. Then have him be in several undesirable places, then several pleasant places then have him be in a slightly dangerous place, then in more and more dangerous places until he can sit in the center of the Sun.”

    I had already been doing various “Astral Projection” type exercises. Following instructions from various non-Scientology books or other sources.

    Do I really need an auditor to ASK me to be three feet behind my head ?

    In Dianetics-55 Hubbard states that if one can exteririze you have an instant “clear”.

    I don’t know about that but I don’t really see any reason why the majority of these processes cannot be done solo “being audited by L. Ron Hubbard” as stated in Self-Analysis.

    I haven’t heard of anyone else ever taking this approach but that’s what I did. Personally though, I don’t see a lot of these exercises as anything more than mental gymnastics or exercises as might be found in some other books. Like “Mind Games” by Robert Masters and Jean Houston. Mathematical puzzles, Zen Koans, various philosophical conundrums etc. I felt flexing the mental muscles in as many ways as possible was at least as important or more important than physical exercise.

    Needless to say, I also practiced various exercises from other disciplines. Various types of meditation, yoga, contemplation, concentration, memory exercises and so forth. As well as studying and comparing other teachings and philosophies.

    I continued visiting Scientology Churches and Missions from time to time. Had opportunity to meet and make friends with a lot of wonderful people with similar interests but felt that I was really getting more out of just reading the books on my own and solo-auditing than what I was likely to ever get, or be able to afford if I were to get involved with the Church.

    I made friends at one mission in particular. But again, it seemed that they were being attacked. The Church was trying to shut them down or something. I was told there was some kind of “take over”. I felt like these good people, my friends, were being attacked by some malevolent entity inside the Church itself. I didn’t really know what was going on, didn’t really know anything about the Church organization but it didn’t seem to be anything I wanted to get very deeply involved with, though I loved the books.

    Anyway, at that time (the 80’s mostly) when I was reading the books and solo-auditing, a lot of churches and missions were shutting down.

    Many within the Church I met were not happy with what was happening. I’d visit a Mission and by the time I decided to go back it would be closed. I felt more comfortable solo-auditing as far as possible rather than getting involved in whatever upheaval was going on in the Church.

    I was dedicated to this pursuit for some time. Studying the books and Solo-auditing. I was strongly motivated to find out if there was anything to it.

    That’s probably more than you wanted to know. Sorry.

  655. Agreed, regarding “The Amazing” Randi and “counter-intention”.

    I think the thing to grasp from that is that even a skeptic like Randi is “OT” though, probably not conscious of it and would vehemently deny it.

    Nevertheless, if it were proposed to him that such was the case as a “Theory” (i.e. that his thoughts are also a variable in the experiment) and a method were offered for objectively testing such a theory, perhaps even he could be persuaded to suspend his skepticism for a moment in the name of science.

    Actually I disagree with you here about Remote Viewing…

    I’m not sure what point I made exactly, regarding remote viewing, that you disagree with.

    The government sponsored research you cite certainly involved correlating these experiences with the physical universe.

    I don’t want to nit-pick your words too much but I’d like to be clear about this. You said:

    “…I think the easiest phenomenon to prove is exteriorization since it doesn’t require any actual agreement only accuracy which is why the Remote Viewing program is of such interest.”

    To “exteriorize” or have an “Out-of-body” experience may not require any agreement, like any “subjective” experience, a vision, a mystic’s journey to heaven or whatever. It doesn’t require proof.

    The idea of “remote viewing” however, is to get proof.

    The “remote viewer” is not taking a journey to heaven to spy on the angels, the “target” is some MEST universe physical location or object like a missile base or submarine. Something that can be verified.

    So to “experience” the phenomenon of being “Out” may not require “Agreement” but to “prove” it scientifically certainly does.

    Remote viewing generally requires a relatively elaborate set up and includes subjective elements that are very difficult to” prove” or disprove.

    Is the description given of a remote target accurate ?

    Well,… “There is a tall structure in the area”….

    That could be describing almost anything, a building a tree a mountain a telephone pole… It’s a judgement call, and such experiments usually have a panel of some sort to sit around and match up descriptions or drawings from remote viewers with actual photographs or some such.

    On the other hand, I think something like the materializations of a sathya sai baba could be studied much more easily under controlled conditions in a lab.

    A carefully controlled experiment could be set up to test such a “siddhi” without any ambiguity about the results whatsoever.

    I think the “advantage” of remote viewing isn’t that it is easier to prove but rather that it is harder to disprove.

    Any vague description of a target might be counted as a “hit” depending on whatever protocol is being used.

    On the other hand, if someone claims they can materialize a physical object there is nothing vague or ambiguous about it.

    A “materialized” physical object, if really “real” could be analyzed, studied, photographed, burnt, hammered, measured whatever.

    The results of remote viewing are generally not so straightforward. It’s a judgement call. Does the description match the actual target?… Well, the answer is usually something like a maybe.

    That isn’t to say that such phenomenon shouldn’t be studied or taken seriously I just think that there are other alleged phenomenon more “falsifiable” (i.e. amenable to scientific testing) than exteriorization or “astral projection”.


  656. Tom,

    Actually there were two protocols devised by SRI and these are covered in Targ and Puthoff’s book Mind Reach.

    1) Known as outbounding where beacons were sent to a randomly selected target unknown to the monitor and viewer and the viewer was asked to describe what the outbounders were looking at as if he or she was seeing the scene through their eyes.

    2) The second method was the one used by the Intelligence Community and was known as Coordinate Remote Viewing or CRV or as Scanning by Coordinates or as SCANATE.

    Both methods could be verified by not only the description given by the Remote Viewer but also by the diagram or sketch that accompanied it.

    These descriptions and diagrams were then judged by an independent panel of judges who determined if it was a hit based on available intel on the target.

    (Photos, Satellite images, descriptions from other sources etc.

    Accuracy was assigned a percentage i.e. 90%, 60% etc.

    I think anything below 25% was considered a miss.

    However as mentioned in the FAS article accuracy was usually more than 60%.)

    In the late 70’s the Military took over the project and developed their own protocols and even wrote a manual on the subject breaking it down to 7 steps.

    Step 7 the Remote Viewer actually did a clay representation of the Target (I wonder where they got that idea from?) and according to reports many of these representations were quite accurate.

    So in both cases you have objective representation of the target which in many cases can be compared to actual images taken by satellite or on land.

    Personally I don’t know how much more objective you could get?

    I mean the Remote Viewer is given the coordinates for a bridge or a missile silo and he or she draws or represents in clay ….

    Not a base ball stadium, or an art museum but a bridge or missile silo and one that looks just like the one they were asking about.

    I’d say this was fairly definitive proof that such a phenomenon exists.

    Now whether this phenomenon can be utilized for intelligence purposes is another question entirely.

  657. I’ve already made several long-winded posts here so I will try to keep this as brief as possible, but the main thing that I wanted to say is this:

    If one does an experiment based on some theory and gets positive results this tends to lend support to the theory on which the experiment was based.

    The theory may not be absolutely true or entirely complete but it is probably at least on the right track.

    I’ve grappled with this problem of PROOF for a long time.

    There is quite a bit of historical, anecdotal and even some scientific evidence to support the conjecture that some very strange things do sometimes happen. Anomalies, OT Abilities, Poltergeists, displays of various extraordinary abilities at certain times, answered prayers, “Miracles” and so forth.

    These kinds of things, or at least reports of them have been happening for centuries. The number of books written on the subject is astounding… so why is “Proof” so elusive ?

    After years of studying, reading and experimenting I finally felt like I was getting results. It seemed I could make “Miracles” happen.

    At times I thought I might be really loosing my mind or something but I kept on experimenting – and kept on getting results.

    The problem was these experiments were done in private. I was the only one aware of them.

    When I did attempt a few public experiments there were no results.

    Why ?

    Why could I manufacture seeming miracles on demand in private, known only to myself, but failed at open demonstrations ?

    Of course it has been known for thousands of years that miracles require “Faith” one has to believe.

    Believing is a mental process or condition. A certain state of mind.

    After much study and practice and meditation I was able to achieve that state of mind and saw results so long as I kept the matter to myself.

    Somehow, no mater how strong or “Pure” my own thoughts or beliefs, if I disclosed my “intention” to others, the “Power” was deflated.

    I theorized, as others have pointed out here, that this is due to “counter intention” or the disbelief of others upon hearing about the “experiment”.

    If *thought* or *mind* creates “reality”,.. if physical reality itself is a product of collective thought, “the average of agreement” as Hubbard put it, then naturally “negative” thinking or counter intentions or “disbelief” in one form or another would dilute or cancel out the energy of a “positive” thought or intention.

    Of course, to suggest that a thought or intention is “positive” or “negative” is largely a matter of opinion. Which is “positive” or “negative” is irrelevant to the equation. What is at issue is that the beliefs or intentions are different or in conflict, opposed to one another rather than aligned. They might both be “good”, “bad” or neutral but if they are in conflict, that is, if they are simply different or in opposition then they tend to cancel each other out.

    When I came to these realizations, I tried to figure out a way of testing the hypothesis.

    If I could suspend the “resistance” in the minds of others, or rather, request that they themselves suspend their resistive or contrary thinking for a moment or even give them some supportive visualizations to do to keep their minds occupied with some “positive” thought at the same moment that I was “visualizing” or “postulating” the intention, then perhaps this problem of conflicting intentions or beliefs could be overcome and results could be obtained.

    The theory being basically that “thought energy” works to create reality more or less the same way any energy works, such as electricity.

    It is a mater of “voltage” (Faith) verses “resistance” (doubt).

    A “postulate” kept to oneself does not encounter much if any resistance from others. They don’t know about it so they don’t think about it, don’t become alarmed and so don’t put up any mental resistance to it (disbelief).

    When such an intention is revealed, however, resistances arise in the minds of others and the effort is thwarted.

    If one can increase ones own “Faith” to the maximum and reduce the “resistance” from other minds, at least temporarily, then it is possible to get a result even under the watchful eye of a skeptic or “unbeliever”.

    You do have to get SOME cooperation.

    The “skeptic” or other person or persons have to be given some brief instruction and guidance as far as what to think about so as to be supportive rather than resistant.

    Also the “intention” must be something innocuous. Something the person would be in favor of seeing happen or at least not be opposed to seeing happen.

    As it turns out, so far, this approach HAS gotten results for me.

    It actually seems relatively easy. You do not have to change anyone’s overall skeptical character, core beliefs, religious views or anything else. You just have to get them to not think negatively for a moment or two, to think about something else or think “positive” or in alignment with the intention.

    Reality is created in the NOW therefore it is not necessary to be “a believer” or for someone else to be “a believer” all the time.

    It is only necessary, apparently, to reduce or eliminate the “resistance” NOW long enough to get the intention to “stick”. Afterwards everybody can go back to being as skeptical as usual but by that time something has already been set in motion. The resistance was reduced and a flow of energy has been initiated and results will follow.

    This has been my experience.

    Adopting this approach has worked and has been verified by repeated experiment. Not to the extent that I would like to see perhaps, but enough to make me believe that the theory is more or less correct.

  658. One additional thought:

    One of the definitions of a so-called “suppressive person” in Scientology is:

    “a person who has had a counter-postualte to the pc you are handling.”

    Well now, what happens when a so called “pc” or “preclear” is connected with a “Suppressive Person”. They don’t make any “case gain” or continually backslide… isn’t this just another manifestation of the J.R.E

    (the James Randi Effect).

    Jesus could not perform miracles in his home town because of the skepticism of those who knew him as a child… “Isn’t this the carpenters son ?” (i.e. nobody special) and… the “miraculous results” of auditing achieved in Dianetics and Scientology don’t “take” for some reason when there is some “SP” in the environment.

    I think it might be possible to take a different approach than that usually taken in regard to “negative thinking”. That is, the usual approach is to “demonize” the source of counter intention.

    Someone with a counter intention may have a very GOOD intention.

    Say there is a plot of land. Person or group “A” wants to build a School on the land, person or group “B” wants to build a community center in the same spot. Person or Group “C” doesn’t want anything built there, they want to see a park or community garden instead.

    These are all “good intentions” in my estimation of the situation but all of these “good intentions” are still “counter intentions” to one another. As long as they are all in conflict with one another nothing happens.

    None of the good intentions will be realized because of a lack of agreement. Without agreement nothing can “manifest”.

    Does that make all these people anti-social ? Bad apples ? Of course not, although in order to get their own way each person or group might seek to “demonize” the others.

    But with some communication and imaginative utilization of available resources, and some cooperation, possibly all of these good intentions could be realized.

    This is more or less the approach I have taken with these experiments. i.e. the “negative thinker” the “suppressive” is not “evil” not actively or consciously “negative” or seeking to destroy or undue the good intentions of others. Most likely they have good intentions of their own. Instinctively maintaining the stability and security of “agreed-upon reality” perhaps.

    On that basis, what is needed to bring about a resolution to the situation is to recognize that the “negative thinker” is equal. Not “bad” or degraded or a hopeless case but someone who’s thoughts are just as powerful and creative as one might imagine their own to be, along with communication.

    By applying a little common sense to the situation the “enemy” can be easily turned into a cooperative assistant.

    In other words; someone with a “counter intention” is not a monster. They are just someone with a different idea or opinion.

    Opinions are senior to reality, along with considerations and postulates and beliefs and thought in general.

  659. I agree with every thing you’ve said here in your comment Tom.

    Also I’d like to add that according to the axioms what is considered good, bad, virtuous or evil is based on considerations and opinions.

  660. Tom, thanks for telling me your story! You seem to have done pretty darn well in your Scn adventure. You should know too, in addition to all you’ve learned, that there’s something in Scn Tech called “the magic of the communication cycle” and because of that phenomenon, much can be gained with an auditor that can’t be gained even in book auditing!

    I am familiar with that wonderful statement you quoted about the PHILOSOPHY sector of Scientology: “By this knowingness alone, and without processing, it should be understood clearly that a new way of life could be created, or an old way of life could be understood and better endured or altered.” And that’s a very high goal in itself! But let’s not forget that the TECH of Scientology can take an individual Being further even than “a new way of life” (spectacular though that life would be – and will be if the Independents win out and take Scn in the direction it was meant to go). And like the Philosophy of Scn, there are some pretty incredible things LRH stated about the Tech. RJ could probably give you some good quotes and references (he’s much better at that than I am) but in general terms – the Tech takes a being to a more and more highly evolved, enlightened state.

    But the main thing I really wanted to say about the Tech of Scn is that there are two sides to it – equally important. As LRH described it, auditing gains are only 50% of the road to total freedom, and the other 50% is Training, i.e. auditor training. That’s one area I’ve personally witnessed the truth of, first hand, for myself and for others. Many of us who’ve done auditor training, not even necessarily the more advanced training, will say that we got even more out of it than our auditing! I’ve worked as a staff member in a Scn academy and I can tell you this – seeing the changes that are made in students who get trained as auditors, drilled and grilled to perfection in the communication cycle, etc. etc etc, well, it’s like seeing the “refinement of a being,” as I used to phrase it, because that was the exact concept that came to my mind. Auditors really can spot what they’re looking at in life too, people and situations… So, the only thing I would recommend to you, Tom, is that you take some courses – in an Independent Scn organization, of course. It will round out your world!

    And thanks for the comm… Hope to see you posting more on the blogs. You write well and are a “thinking man.”

  661. Which axioms exactly ?

    Your statement:

    “What is considered good, bad, virtuous or evil is based on considerations and opinions”

    seems to convey a somewhat different idea than what I recall reading in any of the Scientology Axioms.

    Paring down the statement a bit you get ‘What is considered good… is based on considerations.” – which is axiomatic but not an axiom, I don’t suspect.

    I don’t really take the Axioms as “Gospel”, personally but….

    If Hannibal Lecter considers it reasonable and virtuous to consume his fellows does this make cannibalism inherently good ?

    I can accept, I think, that to one degree or another, thoughts influence or even create physical effects or physical manifestations, perhaps the whole ball of wax, because I’ve seen such things. I’ve seen my own thoughts or “visualizations” manifest.

    I get a little more cautious around this idea that “good” and “bad” are somehow arbitrary.

    I would like to emphasize that I said above: “Someone with a counter intention ** MAY HAVE ** a very GOOD intention.”

    That leaves open the possibility that they might not have.

    OK, thoughts can produce physical manifestations, but if I cast a “spell” on another to cause them to break out in horrible warts and I think this is great fun… Does my consideration that this is a “good” thing actually make it so in the overall scheme of things ?

    First of all, what does the axiom or axioms in question actually say or mean ?

    “These Eight words the Rede fulfill: An Ye Harm None, Do What Ye Will”

    Is Hubbard suggesting we scratch out the “An Ye Harm None” clause ?

    Is this a refection of the ethics of Thelema: “Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law”: i.e. to seek out and follow ones own “True Will”, (as I understand it or as Crowley explains it), rather than ones lower ego desires. A statement more or less synonymous with “Do the will of God” by some accounts. Or what ?

    Good, Bad,… Help, Harm, considerations alike – No ?

    That thoughts can and do manifest is one thing or one “theory”. Very much a kind of Law perhaps even.

    Good thoughts manifest. and Bad thoughts manifest.

    It is worthwhile to know this and to ponder upon it.

    It is almost, if not in fact – mechanical. An “Axiom”.

    People can and do manifest physical “evils” by their careless thoughts and intentions though they may have no sense of responsibility for the possible consequences because they have been taught all of their lives that mere thoughts HAVE NO CONSEQUENCES. Such things as “mind over matter”, spells, charms, the “evil eye” etc. simply don’t exist. it is only “superstition”. So they make themselves and everyone else sick and miserable simply because they were UNAWARE.

    Ethics, I think, is on a higher echelon. Higher than this idea of “mind over matter”.

    Hopefully such knowledge that thoughts do actually produce very real effects in the world, at least sometimes, if not all the time, would motivate individuals to take responsibility for their own “creations”; To think well of others, postulate IDEALS, tend toward optimism, and curb anger, fear, habitual negativity and thoughts which might tend to bring forth hurtful or destructive creations to one degree or another and strive to consciously and responsibly project helpful, healing, uplifting, inspiring, creative thoughts and emotions rather than UNCONSCIOUSLY projecting negativity, lack, limitation, disease, hatred, jealousy or “bad vibes” in general. Since people are “inherently good”, they could only be doing this unconsciously.

    Inherently good. Inherently what ?

    Good ? Goodness is a matter of opinion. Or is it ?

    I think the idea that “Good” and “Bad” are completely arbitrary “considerations” might be just a little psychopathic. But I’m not sure that is what the Axiom(s) you refer to are saying.

    I find:

    “Axiom 31: Goodness and badness, beautifulness and ugliness are alike considerations and have no other basis than opinion.”

    I might add that it depends on ones viewpoint.

    Bug spray is “good” from the point-of-view of the guy who is allergic to bee stings and has a nest of yellow jackets on his back porch.

    “bad” from the point-of-view of the yellow jackets themselves I’m sure.

    Bad, perhaps also from the P.O.V. of a strict Buddhist:

    As per the Eightfold Path:

    “…harbor no ill will toward anyone and harm no living creature. “..Do not destroy any living creature…

    And the Buddhist Precept: “Kill no living thing.”

    Does conscience count for anything ?

    Empathy ? Guilt ?

    Jeremy Bentham (1748 – 1832) is quoted as saying:

    “It is the greatest good to the greatest number of people which is the measure of right and wrong.”

    Hubbard expanded this ethical standard to include all of the “dynamics”: “the greatest good for the greatest number of dynamics”. Not just self or people in general, but bugs, nations, planets, spirits, God ?

    What exactly does all that mean if “Goodness” itself has “no other basis than opinion” ?

    Doesn’t this “Axiom” kind of knock the foundation out from under this ethical standard, IF THERE IS NO STANDARD for Good, if “good” and “bad” are merely subjective or personal views or opinions ?

    As the lethal injection is administered: “This is for your own GOOD”.

    In who’s opinion ?

    What are the circumstances ?

    Is the lethal injection being administered to a condemned killer, or perhaps a cancer patient in extreme agony or is this part of a mass genocide ? Nazi Germany ? Heavens Gate ?

    I’m probably over thinking this.

    My view is more or less that CONSCIENCE is the “8th Dynamic” tapping one on the shoulder and, all else considered, one should listen, “Let your conscience be your guide” regardless of whatever that Axiom might have been intended to mean, and I’m rather sure I don’t really know.

    Somehow it sounds suspiciously like an attempt at justification for some kind of “overt”. A salve for ones conscience or sense of guilt:

    “Goodness and Badness are only opinions anyway. What I did was for the greater good”.

    It seems to me that this could be used as justification for “Antisocial Behavior”.

    I suppose I’m dwelling on this at some length because although I see value in much of Hubbard’s work, I’d like to make clear that I don’t necessarily agree with all of it. I think he was probably wrong sometimes. Maybe about how to handle “Suppressive Persons” as noted above. Maybe not all his “Axioms” were right on the money, like this one.

    You have brought up this axiom in relation to what I posted previously but I don’t feel that one necessarily follows from the other.

    My experiments have indicated to me that SOME of Hubbard’s Axioms seem to hold water to one degree or another but I know of no way of testing this proposition that there is no such thing as absolute Goodness. If that is, in fact, what he meant to say.

    At any rate, this question of “Goodness” has little if any bearing on the issue of OT Abilities. Or does it ?

    If such Powers do in fact exist, then ones ethical standards regarding their use certainly does become an important issue.

  662. Yes we can into a whole philosophical argument here which was not my intention but the fact is that ethics is an abstract concept based to a large degree on agreement predicated on considerations and opinions.

    There is nothing wrong with understanding this.

    Nor is there anything wrong with seeing this as the basis of aesthetics.

    There is also no urge or effort to in the Thelmic sense “Do what one whilst”.

    Or that one must act on any concept or understanding.

    The actual psychopath has no understanding of these concepts they just see things from their perspective and don’t take into account others agreement or their ability to accept the effects they create.

    If you want to create the effect of changing an *actuality* into a *reality* I suggest you study these axioms and the factors as well.

    Because they are the basis of what is considered illusion and reality.

    Have you considered that some people may not consider creating actual tangible objects from nothingness as a *good* thing?

  663. “Have you considered that some people may not consider creating actual tangible objects from nothingness as a *good* thing?”

    I’m aware that there are some, perhaps many who are frightened by such things and who ascribe “evil” entities as the agents of such manifestations: (My X wife for example) and well…

    “But some of them said, “He casts out demons by Beelzebul, the ruler of the demons.” – Luke 11:15

    So I figure I’m in good company anyway.

  664. Tom,
    Isn’t that how we got into this mess to begin with? Man is basically good. And when we used our “powers” to do harm whether on purpose or accidently, we retracted our abilities in order not to harm others again. Isn’t that what auditing does? Rehabs the abilities, takes the charge off that which was holding us down. It really doesn’t do anything to add to us. We already know all we need to know. We already have all we need to have. That seems to be the whole K R C thing. Through auditing we not only take responsibility for what we have done to others but we take responsibility for ALL the flows.
    Un mocking things is just an O T phenomena as creating them. Seeing things “As Is” by definition takes things down to their creation. Take the lie out and it falls apart.
    Try this on for size; what did I/we do to contribute to the creation of Dave’s current sit? The answer may surprise you. As soon as I/you/we spot it and take full responsibility for it, it will unmock.

    My 2 cents.

  665. Good point about ALL the flows. Not sure if Tom is familiar with this concept, as he is a book reader and that was in bulletins, I believe.

    Flow 1, something happening to self
    Flow 2, doing something to another
    Flow 3, others doing things to others
    Flow 0, self doing something to self

  666. “Isn’t that how we got into this mess to begin with? Man is basically good. And when we used our “powers” to do harm whether on purpose or accidentally, we retracted our abilities in order not to harm others again.”
    Through auditing we not only take responsibility for what we have done to others but we take responsibility for ALL the flows.

    OK, I can agree with all that I think. based at least in part from my own experiences but here is the problem as I see it:

    Who, or how many are really taking responsibility ?

    Who or how many think any such thing as “OT Abilities” or “Miraculous Powers” are even possible?

    Who or how many are in anything but flat out denial regarding such things?

    Even among those who “Believe in Miracles” a large percentage only believe in them in terms of Historical personages like Jesus or Buddha or some Saint or other. This is not taking responsibility. Nobody can take responsibility for a thing they don’t even believe in in the here and now. If one denies the very existence of something in the here and now, they are very far from “KRC” (Knowledge, Responsibility and Control).

    Among those few who cannot flat out deny the existence of such things, another large percentage ascribe an “other determinism” such as “poltergeist”, “demons”, “The Devil” etc. as a last ditch effort at rejecting what they can not otherwise deny. This is not taking responsibility.

    How many in the world today do you suppose…

    That is,… what percentage of the worlds population would touch Scientology, or really ANYTHING arguing for the reality of such OT type “Powers” or the processing you speak about with a ten foot pole ?

    By personal experience I can tell you that I certainly did not take responsibility for something I considered “impossible” anyway. as a result, some of my exp