The Palmers – Dignified Departure and Arrival


Adjective: Having or showing a composed or serious manner that is worthy of respect.  (
That is the first word that came to mind when I read the following story of Richard and Vicki Palmer.

Richard and Vicki Palmer



My whole history in Scientology will have to wait. While it may be interesting to some, amusing to others, helpful to others still and cathartic for me – it’s too long to post here.

Having started in 1988 I’ve had the unique experience of being in Scientology after LRH departed but with the organization still having the “feel” of the earlier era (or at least what I imagine it felt like). I was fortunate enough to get training and auditing both pre and post Golden Age of Tech. And I’ve also held positions that gave me a unique view of the church.

I trained and interned as a course supervisor & Pro Word Clearer on the TTC (Technical Training Corps) and held a supervisor position for a number of years before going into the TTC again and training as an auditor & C/S. My last post held in an org was that of Snr C/S and I held it for 5 years.

I’ve done training, auditing and staff activities in Los Angeles, Flag & the Freewinds. And due to my staff status I’ve met people and been witness to things I wouldn’t have as a public. This led me to have many un-reconciled dichotomies about the subject – and left me with great conflict over the years. Some examples:

  • Reading about ARC being the universal solvent and then witnessing the LRH Comm of ASHO “rip the face off” the Commanding Officer.
  • Studying at great length the comm formula and the power of it only to then listen to David Miscavige (and RTC/Int Management staff) denigrate my peers with gross disdain at the Snr C/S Conference.
  • As an extra in a tech film seeing mistreatment of many SO staff, while one or two were treated like kings.
  • Training as a minister and coming to understand the benevolence of the subject, but then working with & around RPF members and seeing how they were treated.

While I can cite example upon example of dichotomies like the above (as a public, as an auditor, as a C/S, as an OT) I still continued with the subject. I was of the frame of mind that there was considerably more good happening and had thoroughly bought the PR that upper management was an idyllic heaven of standardness – it was just us idiots down lower on the org board, goofing things up. I was, for many years, the ideal “bot” for the church. I forwarded the PR line of management and was as much an example of what was expected of me as possible. If there was a program – I would forward its objective.

I had unique comm lines that most staff didn’t have. I was the Snr C/S so I had a Network post – this put me on the lines of management directly. I also had a direct line to RTC, complete with weekly reports. And as the Birthday Game I/C I had other unique comm lines. Being close friends to the DSA of the org also put me on unique comm lines.

As the only OT in both Day & Foundation orgs I’d had more hours of confessional auditing than the entire staff of both orgs combined. Yet I continually found myself in ethics trouble. Despite having been the only staff member I knew of in over a decade to complete a program (and gain signification of it from management) I still was a failure. And despite recruiting over 30 people for staff, C/Sing for both orgs and doing HGC & Review auditing I was still a downstat.

I watched year by year things change. The things that I noticed first were “statistics” at events that didn’t add up. They were things that didn’t really have any bearing on anything – or didn’t directly correlate to the business of orgs. Hearing about “column inches” of press didn’t mean much to me after I’d been involved with the DSA to get something posted in the newspaper for her stat. And things like “Number of books sold” became meaningless when I saw thousands upon thousands of dollars being spent on them by fellow Scientologists – and when the “25 books equals a Scientologist” quote would get tossed into the mix, it really stung.

Being trained pre-GAT and having true ARC in a session was very remarkable. Even if I goofed or didn’t know what to do next it hardly mattered. I was there with the PC and we were both doing our best. The C/S was caring and gentle with both of us – and why wouldn’t he be? And while internships were difficult, at the end of the day I was a PC’s friend. The GAT changed all of that. Personality, ARC, charisma, care – all of it went out the window. I had a realization shortly after finishing my GAT training (which at the time I thought was a good one – in hindsight it wasn’t), that with the advent of the GAT we no longer had “good” or “bad” auditors, we simply had auditors.

As Snr C/S I watched as the subject was systematically ruined – doing our best to churn out rote, robotic “auditors” as fast as possible. And I was running dozens of programs to ensure this happened. The irony is the GAT is such a pile of crap, there’s no way those programs will ever be completed. It’d be like having a series of programs that “extinguish the sun” by using acetone – just not going to happen, no matter how much effort you put into it.

But as a Scientologist, I was still trying to do it all. I was moving through OT levels, was trained and on post in a Class V org, had my wife moving up the Bridge, my son was in an Applied Scholastics school and we were even donating thousands to the IAS. But therein lied the rub – this was just too expensive for a “regular” family to do. I could see the writing on the wall, albeit too late. I was already in the hole for well over $100,000 and hadn’t even started OT VII yet. I’d been working days, nights & weekends for over a decade and was tired. There were very little days off, no vacations and no normalcy for my wife and son.

In 2002, I finished my staff contract, but as many of you know, there’s no “Congratulations/Thank You” for completing a contract and leaving. Oh no. And while there’s no golden watch, there can be goldenrod. 🙂

A Comm Ev was begun a couple months prior to me completing my contract and was issued a month after I left (but was still C/Sing for both orgs out of my home). The Findings & Recommendations were pretty gross. After all the years of work/exchange I’d given, all of my auditing & C/S certificates were suspended pending re-train (among a long list of other things). I was left with a sickening feeling of being “lucky” I hadn’t been declared. Still I soldiered on.

Interesting to note, my wife pointed out to me that most people after leaving staff (or being Comm Ev’d) simply disappear. At some point in the future there will be an attempt to get them “recovered” and at that time it will be disclosed how valuable they’ve always been and what a great contributor they were. But I decided to buck the trend. I was no enemy of Scientology. I wanted everyone to win!

So I got involved with the OT Committee and eventually took the position of D/Chairman. The Chairman & I sat down with some others and came up with a great idea – we’d get a public-level project going to buy the org a building! We started working on it and after a while had a building located, inspected and the initial checklist of actions done for management approval. It was affordable and was constructed & zoned for more stories on top of it for future expansion!

But as you can guess, that building was disapproved (without anyone looking at it) and the OTC was “in trouble” for acting without authorization. It was about this time I got a knowledge report written on me for “being too uptone” in the face of my unfinished F&Rs. Clearly I should have been more hangdog and stayed quietly off-lines. Well, as there was a Sea Org ethics mission in the org, this single KR got me hauled in – and I was told in no uncertain terms that if I didn’t pay for and route onto the Ethics Specialist course immediately, I’d be declared…

I got on course and worked on it diligently. I did my best to be a model student and help the supervisor out (whom I recruited and is still on staff to this day as far as I know) , gave wins, etc.. And yes, I completed it in checksheet time.

I then stopped working with the OTC and went flat out for months to get through my F&Rs. Why did I go through all of this? Well, because I wanted my wife and I to go to the Freewinds and do the OT Debug service, of course! The idea was simple. They promoted 98% of people doing this service are onto their next major service within 2 weeks of returning from the ship. I was thinking I liked those odds – because there was no way I’d be seeing a major service (simply from a financial aspect) for decades at the rate things were going. I was all-in, in the dark (poker parlance).

It was an expensive action but also a defining moment. Doing that service cost well over $25,000 (that we didn’t have) but helped open our eyes like no other. Doing the debug resulted in us having one of the most miserable times of our lives, being invalidated as to our intentions & abilities and left with no route of help.

After the debug we spent the next few years recovering financially. There was no option of doing more Bridge activity. I went to events and helped out however I could, but as far as services/donations go, I was no longer in the game. I was a broken piece…

And that’s why the OT Debug was also the most valuable thing I’d done in a long time. My wife and I both agreed that the church could no longer “help” us and we would have to rely on ourselves. It allowed me to take a step back and do what I knew to be the right things – work, pay off existing debt, never go into this kind of debt again, etc. It had the unexpected effect of allowing me to see how far astray the church had gone from my earliest days with it.

Over the next few years of just going to events (but not doing services or giving money) I was seeing a gross pattern – and recalling earlier instances of the same, substantiated things in my mind. My only thought was that sometime in the future things would be different. I had nothing left in the tank to give, so wasn’t really able to “pitch in to fix things”.

In July of 2009, Vicki and I found out about the St. Petersburg Times article & videos. I of course, was pretty knowledgeable about Marty, his post and relationship within RTC. Similarly with the others giving video testimony. Clearly I didn’t know them as well as those working/living with them all, but as far as “non-SO” went, I had much more knowledge than most.

To say I was in shock would be an understatement. The “problem” I was having was how everything was all of a sudden making sense to me. The church would like people to believe that the testimony given in those videos is what causes a negative effect in the wayward Scientologist. But that is a slap in the face in and of itself. I’d been observing things for YEARS with only partial data, unable to ascertain the truth of them because of incomplete data. No explanation given by the church EVER reconciled them for me. But these videos absolutely did.

I started thinking about how well little Dianetics book clubs & impromptu groups did. And how well Missions seemed to work, compared to Class V orgs. And how increasingly more difficult it got to get the job done as you moved up the org board. I was getting memories flashing of things I observed in Class V orgs, ASHO/AO, how much more poorly people were treated at Flag, the Freewinds, what it was like at the CLO/FOLO and what it was like at FB. The higher you went on the org board THE WORSE IT WAS! But I only ever saw up to FB so never personally witnessed the abuses at Int. But it now made sense – the idea of things “coming down the org board” was really true.

It now made sense why the RTC Reps in SO orgs were the rudest, most unfriendly, out-of-ARC people I’d ever met. It made sense why the MAAs in upper orgs were so concerned with petty overts. It explained why every Class V org EO eventually acted like a douche bag, pretending to be a big shot with a “badge”. It explained why the OSA network had the seediest, most no-gain-case personnel all over their lines. Why so much money went to “defense” of orgs. Why the church needed so many attorneys. Why the church’s PR was so horrible world-wide. And why the subject was being used the way it was on parishioners.

From the moment I had these realizations, I was out…

There is no way I can advocate, condone or support an organization betraying the very foundation of its existence. The Church of Scientology has become a fraudulent, human rights violating, cult of greed.

Step three of the Doubt formula states, “Decide on the basis of ‘the greatest good for the greatest number of dynamics’ whether or not it should be attacked, harmed or suppressed or helped.

I firmly believe the church is no longer deserving of ‘help’…

Richard Palmer


Richard’s email:

Vicki’s email:



279 responses to “The Palmers – Dignified Departure and Arrival

  1. martyrathbun09

    btw, the Palmers are from Seattle Washington. Am I just hearing things, or is the sound of dueling banjos between the states of Texas and Washington beginning to to rock the country?

  2. Hi Richard and Vicki! It’s great to read your story here. You are two amazing people with a lot of power and big hearts. I’m proud to call you friends.

    I do think Seattle is giving Texas a run for their money. Brad and I were just out there a week or so ago visiting with old friends (including Richard and Vicki) and making new friends. Those Pacific Northwest people don’t mess around. When they do something, they do it!

  3. Very nicely put.

  4. Richard and Vicki,

    Wonderful. Precise. Intelligent. I dont think I could have summed up the outpoints and the enforced blindness so well.

    Hope to see you guys again on July 4th. We hardly had a chance for more than “Hello” in Seattle.

  5. Very nice to meet you! Clear and concise and truth! You are one helluva valuable being! Glad you made it OUT and over!

  6. Welcome Richard and Vicki, wow . ..well done. You are two amazing beings.

  7. Tony DePhillips

    YAY Richard and Vicki!!!!
    These are two of our closest friends.
    They are so cool and grant so much beingness to people. It is so crazy the way they were treated by the cult of cabbage. Only an insane organization would blow off such fine people.
    Ok, Marty I will be the kid playing the banjo and kickin into high gear just about now. I may be an inbreed but I know how to play ..

  8. Tony DePhillips

    Dedicated to Richard, Vicki and Corey!!

  9. Woohoo! What a great write up! I’ve known you for years, I’ve spoken to you (and hugged you :-)) multiple times in the last couple years & I still learned new things from your write up & had cogs of my own.
    You two are wonderful people & friends. I enjoy every minute I spend with you & your son.
    I have to toot my horn for opening my big mouth & telling Vicki about Marty & Mike leaving the Church & the St-Pete Times in July 2009. You guys were my first “Indy selectee” LOL. Looking forward to go down to Texas with you.
    Wait till you hear the wonderful stunt these 2 pulled recently. They are a blast to have around. We’re definitely giving Texas a run for their $.


  10. Richard wrote: “had thoroughly bought the PR that upper management was an idyllic heaven of standardness …”

    Tell me about it, Richard. This was exactly what I was doing as well. And yes, what an eye-opening experience the St. Pete Times videos were.

    Welcome to freedom!

  11. Bert Schippers

    YAY Vicki & Richard!

    What a write-up…incredible, unbelievable and in the end just plain sad.

    After Marie-Joe “selected” Vicki & Richard, Vicki “selected” Lynne and I and we started on the real road to truth. (Vicki is my step-daughter.) We have a great group of independents up here in Seattle I must say (with a fair number under the radar….)

    True freedom is a wonderful thing.


  12. Tony, I know inbreeds, and you’re no inbreed! 🙂

  13. Richard & Vicki,
    Thank you for being here with us! Great write-up.
    Lots of love! Christie

  14. Happy “coming out”, you two. Muah! 🙂

  15. Hey welcome Vicki and Rich!

    We could definitely use more auditors and C/Ses to handle the exodus.

  16. Richard, your write-up is extremely well-done, anyone could see the truth from that. Happy to be your mother-in-law, dude!

  17. Oh, I see, so many of these comments are from Seattle people because them thar Texans have all gone to bed! LOL

  18. You guys are two of the most theat folks I’ve met in my life. What a great write-up and synopsis of the actual existing scene.

    I feel a big increase in the renaissance here in the Pacific Northwest with you both communicating loud and clear.

    See you again soon,

  19. Seattle is indeed kicking ass but I won’t mess with Texas, myself. Y’all have guns, while we have non-fat, double-tall, extra-foam latte’s with a twist.

    Anyway, Richard and Vicki, I’m certainly proud of you guys! We know eachother way better outside the implant station than we did on the inside.

    You two have pulled off some serious truth-telling responsibility amongst the Seattle field in the last couple of weeks.


    Your friend, Bryan

  20. Richard and Vicki – awesome!

  21. Our new BIS stat is affluence trending. Welcome to our latest independent, pro-LRH Scientologists.

    Somewhere, someplace, another Scientologist in DM’s hyper-caca looney bin is on the verge of cogniting. Come on, do it!


  22. Richard and Vicki,
    Welcome! Enjoyed your write-up and could easily track with your thinking which took you deeper into the rabbit hole and then up and out to fresh air and freedom. You are entering the real world of theta and postulates with no edges.

  23. Richard & Vicki,
    It’s great to see more good people out! Your post sure gives a better multi viewpoint picture on the untenable situation of being in & contributing to the motion within Policy and in- Tech manner.

    Had not heard about results from the Freewinds Debugs, but then if they were a success, the Ship would not have occupancy problems having to rely on events to get in the black.

  24. Richard & Vicki,

    Awesome, concise, clear and impinging write-up. Great to have you both among us. What you experienced in July 2009 is what I call “waking up and smelling the concrete!” I had a similar awakening and it was like a ton of bricks disappeared instantly.

    Welcome to the real world of Scientology.

  25. I play a bit of guitar. Maybe we’ll have to play this when we head down in July. 😉

    But all joking aside, this really is the game where everyone wins!

  26. Kathy Braceland

    Wow. What a gruesome story but what a great happy ending. You’re here with us! Welcome Richard and Vicki.

  27. You know there’s a tremendous amount of love for you too (and now Brad — he’s really awesome and I look forward to seeing both of you regularly).

  28. I loved your writeup. As a fellow techie I felt I had a big Target on my back no matter how upstat I was with delivery.The inval is horrendous. Welcome to freedom from suppression.

  29. Why thank you. Coming from you that’s quite a compliment. I look forward to having more time to talk in TX. I’m particularly interested in hearing how “Yee Haw!” sounds with your accent. 😉

  30. Thanks Bromizzle!

    It’s really kind of funny how the church has such a supply of footbullets. They tend to blow off the most able people — the ones that will think and act and do…

  31. And you’re just the best, most wonderful angel ever (next to Vicki)!

  32. Thanks for not bringing up all the times Vicki selected you for services over the years… 😉

  33. ΘTater/GaryLerner

    Jimmy!! OTG – Operating Thetan of Guitars!

    No better song then this for Free Beings! Welcome Richard and Vicki and Corey!!!!!!!!!!!

    Your post was spot on and I concur about Flag’s treatment of staff and public.

    Love and ARC,
    Gary (a villager with oh so many torches for little frankendave)

  34. Bravo! Amazing statistics! You are not broken Richard and Vicki. Neither are the rest of us over here. Just the opposite.

    “Our discontent begins by finding false villians we can accuse of deceiving us. Next we find false heroes whom we expect to liberate us. The hardest, most discomforting discovery is that each of us must emancipate himself.”
    Daniel J. Boorstin

  35. Very nice writeup you guys. It gives us all a good inside look at how all of this plays out in a Cl V org. I haven’t really operated in a Cl V org for 20 years.

    Anyhow, I like your style. We’ll see you at the party?

    ML Tom

  36. Hi Richard And Vicki,
    All I can say is right on!!! It’s exactly my experience! I’m one of the under the radar guys up there.

  37. You’re obviously a producer, Richard. This declaration of yours was bloody good, I think. I learned a lot from it.

  38. Hey you two! LOVED chatting with you at the party. You two are so dynamic and I am glad that you are on our side! PS: got a chance to look at your website and it rocks!

  39. hello – i recognise you from somewhere. i am not willing to pop my head up yet – but i have been to SHUK, FSO, CLASS 4 in many cities, GO, course rooms, auditor, c/s, ITO etc, tours, missions, special projects. In 1974 i was prwessured to have an (illegal) abortion. I got in in 1970 and out in 1991 – could not make sense of the whole kaboodle. So many dichotomies like the Crred opposes KSW 1 – then the video of a lawyer announcing LRH’s death, etc. Then i ended up in intensive care from a condition i had had hours of auditing on and i said, WTF am i doing here. Since I left I found a new ‘tech’ and all conditions i had been slowly getting crippled by mentally and spiritually disappeared! if you take TWO way comm, 3p, tone scale, joy of creating, you can have a wonderful life. When i go to church it is beside a pond full of waterlillies or a lake covered in ice or a cave with bats squeaking or a nice strong coffee with friends

  40. Awwwww, shucks. 😉

  41. Richard and Vicki,
    Really well presented story. You both certainly paid a price, but you have gained something that you may not even fully realize yet: no one is going to ever be able to pull the wool over your eyes again. You are now in the possession of stainless steel, industrial strength BS detectors.

    Listen, DM knows that once a person really knows the score, any influence he may have had vanishes like a PI/cockroach when the lights go on. That is why OSA will not mess with someone who they know knows the game they are playing. DM or OSA won’t directly mess with Marty, for instance. They only send PIs, not church straff, to hassle Mosey when Marty is gone. DM knows that if he ever came face to face with Marty or many others, now including Richard and Vicki, that he would create ZERO effect. He KNOWS this. He knows that if he tried to introvert you that you would just look right through the facade. It is game over as far as he is concerned with you (and a growing roster of others).

    So, congratulations to you both!

  42. Thanks a lot, Les! Be sure to give our greetings to Anita, too! 🙂

  43. As far as I’m concerned, we need a good “rival/competition”. But at the same time, we’re all in the “WUS”, so it’s all good…

  44. Richard and Vicki, Sorry you were not appreciated but I am glad now you weren’t. Because you would have been further implanted if you stayed and we wouldn’t have you in the Indy field. The church cannot have OTs as they threaten Davey. Your write up was so bloody familiar. Amazing how the stops all came from ‘within’ the Church. Imagine the surprise at that discovery. You hear DM at events talking about how the bridge is now available for anyone on earth, yet when you two dedicated gung ho devoted people try to reach for it you run into stops, stops, stops from your own group and then they try to cave your dynamics. What a trap. But…Welcome to freedom! You are both very funny people and I enjoyed meeting you at the NW gathering. I am still laughing at that Golden Rod Vicki. Hysterical. Absolutely hysterical.

  45. Welcome Vicki and Richard.

    Not knowing you before, I am still relieved that you are out and free.
    Your write up communicates the madness very well.
    It is just unbelivable how in this organisation (to use the word “Scientology”, in regards that it was coind by LRH, becomes more and more impossible) is mistreating and wasting its people and specially its highly trained auditors, CS´s and staff, the best trained, most willing, most capable and valuable beings – so much stupidty cannot exist, not even on this planet. So it IS done with (evil) purpose and intentionally. Done to prevent people from going free.

    And this dichotemy Richard is talking about, I know only to well and I am sure others too.
    (Still beliving in the good cause) I had happening this many times. For example when I cleared up the word facism and read about dictatorship, when I read “1984”, when I saw fellow staff and even people from the highest echolons getting mistreated and degraded.
    Yes, many things didn´t make sense: till you are out and get the truth and find out that nothing was wrong with YOU nither with your fellows and that your perceptions were correct. And that many, many of your fellows perceived and experienced the same.

    I am so glad that I am out and that I recoverd my life, my hopes, my freedom of speech, my freedom of thought, living and enjoying life. My comm with others is opening up more and more. I AM again. It feels great.


  46. Dignified, indeed.
    Your story really got to my heart,
    may be because it’s similar to mine,
    on so many levels.
    Wish you very best Richard and Vicki!

  47. Well, as there was a Sea Org ethics mission in the org, this single KR got me hauled in – and I was told in no uncertain terms that if I didn’t pay for and route onto the Ethics Specialist course immediately, I’d be declared…

    De ja vue.

    But I left … never came back …

    My only thought was that sometime in the future things would be different.

    Yeah … that reality came knocking too … it just kept getting worse.

  48. Richard and Vicki, congrats and respect.

    Just as real Scientology is a personal experience and one knows whether one has gained from it or not (no matter what others say about it) so is leaving the cult the c of m has become an experience resulting in personal (negative) gain (no matter what “the org”, OSA, KoolAid drinkers or “SP Declares” or anybody else may say).

    The interesting part is how the many viewpoints communicated here continue to broaden and even clarify one’s own viewpoint and even causing further relief. Your write up did.

  49. Dear Richard and Vicki,

    Absolutely great write up, thanks for sharing the Journey. out and through.
    WOW on the $25,000 “OT DEBUG” on FREEWINDS being the most miserable time in your lives


    Your story very well received.

  50. Great writeup, Richard. And what a lovely photo of you and Vicki. I look forward to meeting you both in Texas in July. What a long, strange, but ultimately satisfying trip it’s been!

  51. Welcome on the road to freedom Vicki and Richard,
    Good to hear your story, do well!

  52. Welcome to the group Viky and Richard!! Very well done!!
    Look forward to meet you!! 😀

  53. Hello Richard & Vicki,

    Well done!

    By the way, I loved the mailing that you did!

    When the weather clears up around here we’ll host a little get together.

  54. martyrathbun09

    Yeah, “emancipate yourself from mental slavery…only ourselves can set our minds free.” – Bob Marley

  55. Well, you won’t want to miss the hog callin competition we are lining up. Looking forward to seeing you both. Mike

  56. Hi Richard and Vicki,
    Thank you for your incredible, sane write up. It really communicates and is a wonderful example of how the truth sets you free.
    Enjoy your freedom.


  57. Married to an Ex Sea Org

    Sounds like a horror story. I am truly saddened for you. I hope that you take some time to gather yourself and figure out who you are, and where you are in life before you join up with ANY another group. Everything is beautiful rainbows with the ‘independent scene’ it seems like. “Welcome to Freedom” I keep hearing, over and over and over and over and over. That is however, most likely what the Church of Scientology felt like at the time too.
    So my suggestion is that you take who you pledge your life to much more seriously this time around. Even if it is a book club, the Lions Club, or the Knights of Columbus or what have you….just take it slow. I am sure I am going to get flamed for this comment, but they shouldn’t take it personally. It is good advice. One a true friend would give another.

  58. Your humble servant

    Richard and Vicki,

    Thank you for the great write up. I always wondered about the “OT Debug” because it is passionately promoted as “What you need to resolve your life” –although not in those exact words. I always wondered about that because the debug checklist upon which it is based is a checklist that was designed to pinpoint and resolve reasons for errors or failures or non-production on an organization post–not problems or difficulties in life. Thus, it has seemingly been promoted as an alternative step on The Bridge, although it is not on The Bridge. Since The Bridge was complete and comprehensive, why would such a service be necessary? Thus, it had a whiff of squirrel-dom to it, although I strongly had the feeling that one was not supposed to raise pointed questions like that. Could the OT Debug service be another squirrel cook-up of David Miscavige?
    I know a loyal couple that went off and did the OT Debug, and they didn’t return with glowing reports and praise of it. He, at least, did not seem happy. I believe they are now divorced.
    I also have the impression that the Freewinds is an empty place, desperate for more customers, not a happy, thriving Mecca upon the sea. Just the opposite of the way it should be.

  59. TroubleShooter


    IMHO it’s more like “waking up and smelling the sewer” kind of awakening or “waking up and smelling the gas” the more you breathe the more you know you need to get the hell away from it!

    Richard and Vicki, well done on the stop, look and listen that you’ve done. Looking forward to hearing about the recent manner in which you got your word out to many in the field before you officially left.

  60. What a horror story.. The more upstate you are the worse things get.
    Enjoy your new freedom and relax.
    The Church has changed.
    You notice it and got out.
    Good for you and welcome.

  61. martyrathbun09

    I added three paras at the end of Richard’s post that was lost in transmission prior to posting. Please have a look at the three last paras in italics. Sorry folks.

  62. Richard WOW!!! What a story….a BIG eye opener.
    Congrats Richard and Vicki for seeing the real TRUTH! FREEDOM RINGS!!!

  63. Richard and Vicki,
    Hello and Congrats from Texas! Richard, your story is so important considering your extensive technical background. Thank you so much for telling it! You both have made a big difference! Thanks most of all for your Courage in standing up and being counted! Every voice counts towards ending the destruction of all that is good about Scientology. Thanks again and much love, Laura

  64. Rory Medford

    we all have the ability to set ourselves FREE.

    well done and I wish u the best. The church of DM is well on its way to EXTINCTION regardless of what DM is telling his followers.

    He is a DB of the highest kind, right up there with Hitler, Sadamm and his fate will be that of Jim Baker

  65. “And that’s why the OT Debug was also the most valuable thing I’d done in a long time. My wife and I both agreed that the church could no longer “help” us and we would have to rely on ourselves. ”

    Thank you for your even-handed and (Marty nailed it) dignified write-up and for taking action as you have.

    It was amazing to read of your realization that you couldn’t rely on the Church for help, that you would have to help yourself. I had the same realization myself along the way. It seemed that so long as I had money to give, there was “help” but it was never the help I really needed! I was feeling hangdog about it for a long time, and I did reel from the knowledge I learned about upper management, and it was possibly one of the brightest and darkest moments of my life to understand that there was nothing wrong with me in the first place, but there was definitely something very wrong with the abusive behavior of upper management and its filtering action all the way down the line. The bright side came from knowing that folks like you, Les, Marty, Luis (just to name a very few) are trained and do see what I saw along the way and that our many blessed auditors and C/Ses continue to audit and C/S and CARE what happens. Thank you for that. Thank you for the many people you helped, truly helped along the way. It may be that the Church will never acknowledge you but out here, where freedom continues to live and breathe and create space and futures, you are much, much appreciated, deeply appreciated.

  66. Wow Richard, I’m surprised you got out without more scars! You are an extremely able guy. DM or his minions don’t shoot at anyone who is mediocre, it’s only the real able ones he wants to kill. I’m so happy for you and your family. Life will be so much better for all of you!!! 🙂

  67. Thank you for your amazing declaration. While I read it, I was constantly struck by your P E R S I S T E N C E. This is a quality I truly admire and feel it will serve you well in your newly-found independence. Welcome Richard and Vicki Palmer! We embrace you. H

  68. Mockingbird6

    Yay, the indie zone has gained another Senior C/S! So for your certs to be valid in the independent field, do you have to have the badge of honor too? (The S/P declare.) Does this mean you are now allowed to help people? LOL

    But let me get this straight. You were written up for being too uptone instead of acting penitent and degraded over being pronounced guilty of some bogus charge? I’m having trouble finding the line here between sanity and insanity. I guess we passed that a few miles back on this “Highway to Destruction.”

  69. Well, Texans get kicks from horses, while Seattleites get kick from lattes. And breves, and cappucinos, and quad ristretto mochachinos and…

    If you can tell I made that last one up (or maybe I didn’t!) then you pass the Seattle test and can be an honorary member. LOL

  70. Hey Luis, I got the picture of waking up and smelling the concrete and realizing I had been tossed on my head on the street! Good analogy!

  71. Well done Richard and Vicki. There is an FO I recall; “The giddy diaper days are over. It’s YOUR Scientology TOO, YOU KNOW!!” (paraphrased).

    Well, that’s exactly where we are and what it is. Glad to meet you both.


  72. Longago, I love your description of “when I go to church…” I look forward to meeting you some day.

  73. This “It was about this time I got a knowledge report written on me for “being too uptone” in the face of my unfinished F&Rs. “ just says it all.

    When being “too uptone” becomes a crime, only criminals will be “uptone”. 😉

    Welcome Richard and Vicki! I suspect there are more waiting in the wings…

  74. Yvonne Schick

    Very well done, Richard and Vicki. Your announcement is very well written and communicates exactly the situation. While I regret that you had to experience what you did, I am grateful that you came thru with the insight and wisdom to set yourselves free. You will love life on the outside where you are validated for the help you give others and received the help and support you need.

    You make me that much more proud that I am independent.

    Much love, Yvonne

  75. Expelled 4 Life

    Wow! You go Jimmy! 😉 😉 😉

  76. No need to flame you, MTAEXO. A “Head’s up!” is sometimes appreciated. We all should be bulletproof by now, but the modus operandi of “jumping into a belief system with both feet” has operated on me many times in the past and I’m not sure I’ll never do it again. (And what this has to do with Vicki–she was only five months old when I jumped in and took her with me.)

  77. (Special thanks to Deep Fax for getting this out…)

    Religious Technology Center
    Technical Office of COB

    To: RTC Reps I/T

    Confidential***Top Security***


    _1. Sign RTC Pledge:

    “I, ___________ (RTC Rep I/T) do hereby solemnly swear that I will uphold, forward, protect and defend all COB orders, directives, policies, ideas, intentions, dictates, desires, requests, demands and whims with all my heart and soul and that I will fight to destroy anything and anyone who stands in His way, cross orders, non-complies, interferes with, irritates, fails to salute, lacks awe and groveling, looks at Him in any way less than 8.0 on the Tone Scale, accidentally brushes up against him, or ever has a thought that may counter-intend him in any way whatsoever and that I will do so in with a frozen Cold Chrome Steel face and attitude and never pass up an opportunity to be caustic to those I encounter in my daily duties of fully supporting and strengthening COB.”

    RTC Rep I/T

    _2. ICE BLOCK DRILL: Duct tape ice blocks to your face, leaving the eyes and mouth clear while you stand at attention in the mirror for a 2-hour no-blink, no-think, no-move TR-O with yourself.

    _3. COLD CHROME STEEL DRILL: Fresh from the 2-hour Ice Block Drill, walk to a hospital emergency room and observe people wounded and dying without flinching. Any flinch or thought of compassion or empathy requires you to go back to the Ice Block Drill to EP. Repeat Cold Chrome Steel Drill.

    _4. FACE RIP-OFF DRILL: Walk around any org until you see an outpoint, such as a wrinkled shirt, a less than enthusiastic acknowledgement, a book crooked on a shelf, etc. and engage the suspected guilty party ferociously. According to the circumstances, select at your discretion from the following patter in a TR-8 yell:


    Or stronger patter as needed. (see COB Ethics Directive, KEEPING SCREAMING WORKING for a list of highly effective patter for face-ripping.)

    Face Rip-Off drill tips:

    *Bulge your eyes out at least 1″ from your face.
    *Practice on little children.
    *Old and frail staff may need additional force to penetrate their accumulated mental barriers and protection mechanisms.
    *Place your face 1/16th of an inch from recipient’s nose.
    *Allow spittle to freely fly from your mouth for added impingement.
    *Watch COB Face-Ripping Training DVD often.

    _5. REPORT WRITING DRILL: Write a mock report to COB, using the following criteria:

    *Total Subservience
    *Use a happy tone
    *Give all minute details COB will be interested in such as: anyone who caved in from Face-Ripping, celebrities who are pleased, projects on-target, how great COB is, etc.
    *Full details on anyone punished
    *Make COB feel safe

    _6. COB ACKNOWLEDGEMENT DRILL: Twin up with another RTC REP I/T and use the following patter for acknowledging COB for what he says, thinks and does in ways that fully acknowledge COB for his miraculous stats and beingness:

    *”YES SIR!!!!!!!”
    *”SIR, ABSOLUTELY, SIR!!!!!!!!!!”

    Or similar acknowledgments that will allow COB to swiftly and easily see that he is being totally duplicated and complied with and the dangerous situation is now handled.

    _7. BEATING DRILL: Note – When first beginning this drill RTC REP I/T may wish to wear gloves until knuckles have had sufficient time to harden from calluses.

    *Find someone you’ve already Face-Ripped and yet has been observed committing an infraction based on COB’s 72 page Directive, LIST OF INFRACTIONS DESERVING OF A BEATING, and make a stealth approach to the offender.
    *When you have the offender’s attention and have locked eyes, suddenly smash them in the side of the head using either open hand or fist (according to degree of infraction or dislike of their face).
    *If offender flinches, smash them again on the other side of their head.
    *Walk around until you see someone with a face that looks like they are less than exhilarated about working and without changing your walking pace swiftly punch them in the stomach. Keep on walking.
    *Encounter a situation where it appears as though someone has CI or is reluctant or has an excuse. Dive through the air or across the table with enough force to knock them on the ground, whereupon you are to alternately choke, punch, slap, rip, claw and spit on offender until it feels like the correct estimation of effort has been achieved.

    This drill is to be done three times through on video to a final pass by COB.

    *Step One: Word Clear each of the following key words: placate, intimidate, stoic, steely, hard, posture, glare, ignore, disinterested, incipient, cold, chrome, tough, bully, no, don’t, command, intention, representative, chairman, reference, directive.

    *Step Two: With twin, practice interviewing ‘public’ who’ve requested to see you with a complaint or concern. Flunks will be given for agreeing with public, smiling, having any emotion, not displaying Cold Chrome Steel attitude, being interested, allowing COB to be denigrated in any manner, or failure to refer public to appropriate COB directive that already covers their concern.

    *Step Three: Get on the RTC line and start interviewing public who’ve requested a meeting. If above approach does not handle the public’s concern, adhere to the following gradient protocol:

    a. Assure public the COB definitely has the matter under control but it’s confidential.
    b. Warn public to back off.
    c. Order public to sec checking.
    d. Issue Non-Enturbulation Order.
    e. Gather evidence for a guilty verdict for Comm Ev.
    f. Assign and Instruct Convening Authority and Members on outcome of Comm Ev.
    g. Hold Comm Ev.
    h. If public doesn’t retract and recant, cancel their certificates and ban them.
    i. If further trouble with public, have them declared SP and expelled.
    j. Write up all valuable and pertinent info to legal which will be forwarded to PI’s for Field Handling.


    “I, ____________ (RTC Rep) solemnly vow to fully agree with and support COB in all his actions and efforts without ever letting a particle get past me and woe be unto me if I fail.”


    Congratulations, you are now a fully trained RTC Rep entitled to all the prestige, honor and accolades entitled to the toughest, most dedicated, fully supportive unit of the only force on the face of the earth that is capable of saving man-kind from obliteration, thanks to the COB.

    RTC Rep Training Unit I/C


  78. Palmer Family: Wake Up Call
    From the home of perhaps the country’s most popular wake up beverage, comes a family who has woken up!

    Mighty fine entrance to the rumble, Vicki, Richard & son. Thanks for joining in.

    Bruce Pratt

  79. And it has never, ever been any other way, has it?

    Thanks Jimbo.


  80. Tony DePhillips

    I want a glass of what you’re having!!! LOL!
    You are a comedy machine!
    “Make cob feel safe” ROFLMAO

  81. its Jimi, for the record.

  82. OTDT, I think I’ve fallen in love with you! You are a riot! Your satire is so wickedly funny. You ought to compile a book of Scientology Satire. You hit it home every time!

  83. Richard and Vicki – OMG – what a story! It makes my brain boil to read about these abuses, but on the brighter side, that was quite a debug! I look forward to meeting you one day. You guys sound like great people and my other half has confirmed as much! My very best to the both of you!

  84. OTDT, “Assure public the COB definitely has the matter under control but it’s confidential.” Another laugh-and-cry-at-the-same-time moment because it’s SO TRUE!

  85. Excellent, powerful and moving write up. On a par with “A Letter from Garcia.” We ought to add your names to the Indie 500 list. Write to me with your info. Steve

  86. Richard and Vicki!

    Congratulations to the both of you. What an excellent write-up.

    Richard, it has been my privilege to know you and laugh with you so many times. Now, we have something else to laugh about!!! Look forward to seeing you guys up in Seattle one of these days. Love from Suzanne & Craig

  87. Wow, that is so true. Glad you put it so well into words. Recently I had the realization that there are many things I can communicate to people still inside the Church that could shake their blind allegance to DM but there is nothing they can say to me that will shake my eyes wide open, non-allegance to DM. No matter how loud they scream or how they seem to ignore the comm, I believe any comm plants a seed & the Church’s lies, flagrant outpoints & mis-treatments will be the water, sun & fertilizer that turns the seed into a full grown tree, eventually LOL

  88. Married to an Ex Sea Org


  89. Congratulations, Richard and Vicki!

    I know you’ve had a lot of cognitions lately to get you to this point. I applaud you for seeing through the lies and half-truths that have kept you trapped in an illusion for all of these years.

    May you continue to keep your integrity to look and evaluate things for yourself, and refuse to take things upon someone else’s “authority”-including LRH! Remember that LRH set the CoS on a path ripe for a petty dictator to take over. KSW, Disconnection, Fair Game, and the SO were all LRH’s ideas.

    I hope you take from the tech what works, and utterly reject what does not. Improve upon it where you are able. You, and not anybody else, are in charge of your self-determinism. Good luck.

  90. I’m not gonna flame you. But I will voice my disagreement – one of our many ‘freedoms’:
    No one said the Indie group was perfect.
    I don’t think any would even wish to be claim to be so.
    But if I were aspiring toward that beguiling goal then living, laughing, loving and learning with this amazing group of people who bring so much needed theta into my life daily would be a damned good place to start.
    One of the personal wins I had in this whole cycle was that I found I didn’t need to ‘learn my lesson’ never to trust or love another or others again.
    I don’t regret any of the experiences I’ve had or the mistakes I’ve made. I’ve have forged incredible friendships along the way and learnt valuable lessons.

  91. I hear you, Richard,

    When a certain, OT7, former friend of ours (last name, Nickels), told me about the beatings over lunch one afternoon, I hadn’t a clue as to what he was talking about. He kept mentioning the “Saint Pete Times”, which I’d never heard of.

    Well, I dashed home, logged on and within about the first thirty minutes of Marty’s interview, for some reason, it just totally indicated to me that DM was the correct target. I mean, I went from worshipping DM for decades, to loathing him within thirty minutes. It blew charge. The room got brighter. And within mere days, after being read the riot act for having looked, I made my escape.

    I am dumbfounded as to why the “OT” individuals I tried to awaken just wouldn’t budge. Wouldn’t even fucking LOOK. I am dumbfounded as to the vicious idiocy one receives in return for merely asking a few questions.


  92. Exactly!

  93. Welcome Richard and Vicki!
    Thank you for standing up to be counted.

  94. OTDT-

    RTC Reps must have a proclivity for sadomasochism. Inflicting and receiving pain and humiliation. Yeah, that’s the ticket.

  95. What Sam said 🙂

  96. Richard-

    Thanks for an outstanding introduction and write-up. Seattle (and Texas) rock!


  97. Wow! A really well written story and summation of your experience. An unfortunate story but powerfully told.

    Nicely done.

  98. Ahh yes. Face ripping in the Sea Org.
    Remember it well.
    It’s right up there with ‘SRAs’.
    DM’s valence much?

  99. Yvonne Schick

    You said it for me as well.

  100. Dumbfounded — as in “DMfounded!!” LOL

  101. Sam, 100% dittos from me too.

    Scientology didn’t just “feel great” at one time, it WAS great.

    I can’t speak for anyone else, but having understood and experienced true theta comm, I’m not sure the Lions Club would do it for me anymore.

    Give me fellow OTs with whom to communicate freely, or give me death. I’ll gladly take on any associated risks.

    However, the following song also comes to mind:

    “Won’t Get Fooled Again”!

  102. So very true, H!

    Richard & Vicki, I wonder if you have cognited fully yet on your own capabilities. I read your story. I was left completely in awe of your persistence and dedication in spite of having just about every obstacle imaginable thrown at you. Talk about bullbait for the “real” world.

    I have no doubt you can handle a lot more adversity than those who have not gone through a similar experience. Perhaps that could be considered as a sort of silver lining from the ordeal. Not something one was hoping to get, but may turn out to be a valuable long-term gain nonetheless.

  103. Under-the-radar

    Amazing story and very well written.
    I wanna be like you when I grow up.
    Tough as nails and smart too.

  104. Whoa, hey what about us country bumpkins that don’t live in the downtown area, we have guns. After all we have cougar, bobcats, elk and bear out here.
    And yet we are civilized enough to have lattes too! 🙂 hehe

  105. Under-the-radar

    I had the exact same experience. It is like some sort of FPRD implant attempt. Once one looks however, one can as-is the situation and the attempt is thwarted.

    This is some serous $#!T

  106. How sad is that? After everything Ron himself has said about Auditors! And here you guys are feeling a damn target on your back?

    You deserve better, Auditor. And always will.

  107. Richard & Vicki,
    Congrats to you both for pulling yourselves up by your bootstraps and seeing the truth for what it IS! Very well done indeed.

    As an aside, Richard, I feel for you feeling the pressure from Int and RTC. The major outness there, to me, is two things actually… now that I think on it more: 1) Violation and Penetration of the Ivory Tower. and 2) Where the hell is RTC on the Org Board? Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay……… off to the side. That they are now smack in the middle of the “org” and creating “intention” counter to the Tech is a testiment to their invalidity.

    Ah well, all is now well, wouldn’t you say? There’s a lot of big beings in your area to help! Washington is going to be just fine in your hands!

  108. Really awesome. I wish you guys all the best. And the adventure continues………

  109. Very well done Richard & Vicki. It’s a tough road to follow the truth, you are an insperation.
    I read your write up with very real duplication, I too remember the fun days of the 80’s and wish you all the best now you are free and capable of using Scientology for the wonderful technology it is.
    I left in late ninties, broke, despised by what I thought were friends and I still reel at the thought of the solidity & treatment from Org terminals. Compassion & ARC while vulerable to initial attack are the best integrity a Thetan can have – best to you and the future.

  110. Your Humble Servant,

    There is no doubt that the “OT Debug” is a squirrel action.

    Whether it was dreamed up by the rabid squirrel himself is another question.

    Fact is LRHED 301 Int the original Debug Checklist was never intended as an auditing action.

    This is just another example of misapplication of the tech like requiring a sec check every 6 months or auditing Pre OTs on Dianetics after being “undeclared” etc.

    The *usual* action to do if a Pre OT is having difficulties is a standard review.

    To do otherwise is setting up the case to *fail*.

    The real question that should be asked is if this is intentional on their part?

  111. Congratulations on your severe reality adjustments 🙂
    In a way I’m reminded again of the Matrix. The world inside the false universe created by DM and his minions can seem so real but then one swallows the right “pill” and the Matrix is gone with wonder at how one could have believed in it.
    I was also amazed that many high on the grade chart didn’t spot the outpoints and leave.
    But I still don’t buy DM as the Why.
    The Why is much earlier than DM. There were already outpoints of magnitude when DM started his takeover such as the IJC being hardly trained and at the bottom of the grade chart.
    blogger note: Edited out two pages of Ralph’s preaching. Ralph, I’ll post such if it is ever relevant to a topic under discussion. I won’t post it here and take away from these brave souls’ day of introduction. Please look up “class” in the dictionary. – your friend, Marty

  112. Happy you are out Richard and Vicki Palmer.

  113. Tony DePhillips

    Hi Publius,
    How about coming out and then coming to the Indy party? I would really like to meet you. I enjoy your posts.

  114. Richard,
    You are one tough but good hearted son of a gun, man. More patience and understanding than I have, that’s for sure. I would have choked someone or worse.
    And since behind every good man is a good woman, Vicki, this goes for you as well.
    It amazes me the waste that goes inside that organization, excuse me, DRAGONIAN CULT.

  115. Sherb, “Compassion & ARC while vulnerable to initial attack are the best integrity a Thetan can have” I can’t agree more. Love

  116. You actually read it and disagree?
    You say you are my friend? Have you not noticed that assigning word clearing to people is used as a put down in the CofDM? You use it in a similar 1.1 fashion.
    I have wavered between thinking of you as someone who could uphold the tech and as someone who could have have done much that DM did given the opportunity.
    You are over-acknowledging people. That , to me , is indicative that you wish control. DM does that a fair bit to control such as TC.
    Its great that these people finally have a cognition. It would have been much greater without their acceptance of horrendous outpoints and personal abuse before doing so.
    You can treat this as a private wake up call if you can’t confront letting it be posted.

  117. Agreed. I know my situation wasn’t necessarily any “worse” than many others. In fact, my friends that trained at ITO had to deal with pretty abhorrent conditions. Similarly, my Snr C/S peers (and all GAT trainees for that matter) at Flag had quite a gruesome time by way of comparison. I had a habit of “being at the right place at the right time” and staying out of big trouble for the bulk of my staff career.

    The interesting (or “unique”) thing about my post was I was less shielded from the management PR than the typical staff member — and for sure the public. And even THEN it was difficult to see…

    And yes, you’ll be seeing Vicki, my son and I at the party. 🙂

  118. I can only imagine. Take the time you need — I’m looking forward to your emancipation!

  119. martyrathbun09

    Sweetheart, you’ve got their email address. I am not your publishing agent.

  120. Yep. Great advice. Finding another Guru is not a great idea.

  121. I use to pride myself as a producer. Interesting to me how I stopped thinking of myself that way (thank you Freewinds debugger). But since being out of the fog everything is much more effortless.

  122. I was mostly in LA during 1989/90 all around PAC, but also went to Flag for a short stint.

    And while I’m sorry to hear of all the hardships you experienced, I’m VERY glad to hear how well things are going for you now! 🙂

  123. Thanks, Joe! I feel bad because we sent the wrong file to Marty — that only had MY letter in it. The actual file had Vicki’s and then mine. So sadly, no one’s gotten to “hear” from Vicki on the matter. But let it be known, she’s been a bulldog about all this. She’s been very determined to create action with regards the abuses in the church and has spearheaded many things on it…

    I hear you about the DM/OSA not bothering those “out”. Because you’re right. They aren’t on my org board! They have absolutely no power over me in any way, shape or form…

  124. I too am gald we’re out!

    What was that quote about, “…we get endless trouble from mis-declares…”?

  125. I couldn’t agree more.

  126. I couldn’t agree more!

  127. I honestly believe my story is very similar to most any staff member who’s worked in a Class V org for any amount of time. And that’s why I called it out that way…

  128. Yup. And these are the kinds of foot bullets that has done the church in. Man, the stories I could tell…

    I recall when I was on PAC during the GAT (I hadn’t been sent to Flag because I was currently mid-OT levels) how the place was under marshall law. People that were a few steps “late” for musters were instantly assigned to the RPF. Or the Class IX C/S friend of mine that was ousted for “disagreeing” with it. Or other SO auditors and/or C/Ses that were booted for not being fully with the program.

    Wow! To waste the best of the best in such a flippant manner was a huge dichotomy. What happened to “most valuable beings on earth” and that sort of sentiment? Well, some of them were doing unauthorized “thinking” and paid the price. The irony being that by punishing them, the organization was the actual loser…

  129. I agree with you wholeheartedly. 🙂

  130. Ralph Hilton said,

    “Its great that these people finally have a cognition. It would have been much greater without their acceptance of horrendous outpoints and personal abuse before doing so.”

    That’s as innapropriate and 1.1 as anything I’ve read on this blog.

    Clear the term “God Complex” and then go back to ESMB where you belong. Nobody ever said there weren’t some outpoints before DM came along. But many here have had major gains from LRH. And that’s how to judge a person. Nobody is absolutely perfect, dude.

    Let’s get back up above 2.0 and let my friends have their wins.

  131. Hey Richard and Vicki, great post. It’s great hearing the details. I had wondered why you had left the lines, weren’t auditing (at least in the field) or donating to the Idle org (the only hope Seattle had – NOT) after you left staff, while I was a good bot working my ass off for the good of DM-kind. I’m really glad you held your position there, and kept some funds away from the black hole.

  132. To be fair, there’s nothing particularly wrong with the OT Debug. It’s mis-represented and mis-packaged — those are the failing points. Just like an auditor can do repair lists with a preface (you know, like “Recently…” or “Since your last session…”) so can the Debug Tech Checklist.

    But doing a debug on someone shouldn’t run $10,000+ per person. And it shouldn’t require going away to a ship. But this service is shrouded in mystery as if there’s something special about it. Well, there isn’t.

    It’s interesting what you relayed about your friends. I think after getting the debug, our marriage hit the roughest patch we’d ever encountered. The debug was directly responsible for that.

    In my case I had a young (not necessarily bad, just describing the person), GAT trained, low Bridge-level debugger. They were not able to get any reads on me — probably because I wasn’t in ARC with them or confident of their abilities at all. Well, at one point I was getting distressed because of the no-reads. We were going through the list again and again, but nothing was coming up.

    Then it hit me. They were going to give me the, “If Tech won’t go in, Ethics must be out…” line. And that’s exactly what happened. And my why? Well, based on the fact they were unable to find any technical reason for my trouble, I was told, “Your why is ‘out-ethics’.”

    Gee, thanks…

  133. The feeling is mutual. 🙂

  134. Looking forward to it, Mat!

    Oh, that reminds me. I need something from you. I’ll see if I can dig up your number and call…

  135. No way would I flame you. In fact, we’re on the same page — I can guarantee you that!

    Some people may have mistaken some of my posts here as being unsupportive or “anti-” in some way. That’s not the case at all. I truly like people and want everyone to be happy & well. But I also think going “all in” on any one person, group, philosophy, etc. might not be the best thing.

    As I said in another thread, at one time or another it’s entirely likely that we were 100% ‘sold’ on Christianity or some other ‘-ism’. Then we found Scientology and discarded the earlier thing for it. I’m not very interested in going through that cycle again.

    But like Sam so beautifully said (and I’d be surprised if you didn’t feel the same), I’m also not going to allow myself to become jaded and stop loving people…

  136. Ok Marty,
    I haven’t had dreams about being your sweetheart but we’ll pass over that one I think. I must admit that you are quite a likeable old rogue but I hope it is appreciated that I would not have any inclination to provide competition to your lovely Lady.
    I’ve had quite a bit of Black PR about me on the net as I see you have too.
    And there are quite a few so-called Scientologists in the field that in their self interest attack others. Even Class 12s!
    I spent an hour composing what I thought was of value and you chose in an instant to delete it.
    I did keep a copy so don’t feel bad about it.
    We are quite a way from being on the same wavelength but I don’t see that as problem.
    Despite our disparate viewpoints on some matters we can probably help each other.

  137. Yikes. I’m sorry about that Marty. For some reason the first half is also missing (Vicki’s intro and her write-up). I’ll leave it to you and her to sort it out, but the document she sent should have had a heading, an intro, her write-up and then mine (ladies first, you know)…

  138. “You are over-acknowledging people”
    Yeah – seriously caves people in getting a really good ack for honest to goodness courage.
    Was going to bite my tongue having said that…. but I changed my mind 😀
    Here it comes…
    If anyone is feeling caved in after my ‘over-acknowledgement’ please let me know and I’ll retract it immediately.

  139. I caved…. 🙂

  140. Thank you, Laura! I don’t consider myself “highly trained” compared to my peers. What I have is a lot of “baptism by fire”, study and practice. I should have just done my Class VI course but there was a time concern with my org. But doing all of the specialist courses I did (Scn DRD, Asthma/Allergy, Intro Auditor, Assist, Group Processing, KTL/LOC Supervisor/Review Auditor & C/S, etc.) still took a looooong time.

    But I hope this makes a difference. There are others in the same (or worse or even better) situation than us — and hopefully this will give them just a little more courage than they had before. 🙂

  141. Wow, what an absolutely sweet and wonderful acknowledgement. Thank you. 🙂

  142. I really have lucked out a lot more than some. I somehow (by good luck or something) always dodged the bullets. Clearly not all of them, but most of them. I remember talking to Norman Starkey in the elevator at PAC and skirting a rather sticky situation (gotta love the Comm Course No-Answer drill). Taking days off at JUST the right time. Completing a course on time just after the org was placed in a State of Emergency. Etc.

    It caught up to me, sure. But I was able to make a pretty good run for quite a while. 🙂

  143. Thank you for the embrace, Hallelujah.

    It’s really only been since last year that I started feeling more “myself” again. Even though I’d sort of been out for several years (by way of inactivity) and really out since 2009, I was still sort of in a funk.

    But yes, looking at where I’m at in life, it has served me well. I think there could have been a friendlier way to accomplish it, though. 😉

  144. Sam,
    I accept your ack and raise you a high-five! 🙂

  145. It’s interesting you bring this up. I am very successful at what I do. And it comes very naturally to me. I’d be lying if I said it wasn’t directly attributable to abilities unleashed from doing Scn services (and more obviously, serving on staff). I mean, people in the world don’t treat people like the church does its staff/public. It’s truly a bizarre thing.

    I treat members of any team working for me with dignity and respect. I assume they all want the same thing as the client does, so treating them any other way if there’s a mistake is just counter-productive. In fact, they already feel bad about a goof, so why brow beat them? I’ll tell you, treating your workers they way you’d truly like to be treated, will make the most loyal staff you can imagine…

  146. Tony DePhillips

    Hi Thetabuddy.
    It would be great if you could connect up with us. We have lots of get togethers and fun events and comradery. Richard and Vicki left their email addresses below Marty’s post above or you can contact me at

  147. You know it’s funny. I was such a “bot” when that happened I barely even noticed that. It was my good friend Tony DePhillips who pointed out that I was KR’d for “being too uptone” and how silly that was. He’s brought it up a few times and it’s just as hilarious now as it was the first time.

    And as far as the badge of honor. I recently got declared… 🙂

  148. “When being “too uptone” becomes a crime, only criminals will be “uptone”.”

    Vicki in particular would be a pretty big criminal in that book… 😉

  149. Freedom Fighter

    Wow! Great post! I find it most interesting how much Tech terminals are targeted so viciously . . .

    Welcome out, Palmers! VWD on keeping in your personal integrity.

  150. Sam, WOW! I just Love the cave you put me in. Love

  151. Holy hell that is beautiful!

  152. I look forward to meeting you as well! 🙂

  153. Steve, our email addresses are at the end of our write-up. I don’t know your contact details but if you’d reach out to me I will reply. Let me know what you’re looking for. 🙂

  154. Suzanne, you truly are one of my favorite people. Absolutely love you!

    Did you receive anything from us in the mail recently? If not, email me your addy…


    WELCOME BOTH OF YOU!!!!!!!! TO THE MOST SANE GROUP AND TO FREEDOM….. you are going to experience again ARC!!!!! I’m happy for you….

  156. Abso-f’ing-lutely!

    I’m treating Scn as a philosophy once more. And the nice thing about philosophies is you can DISCUSS them. Not everything has to be true or right. And in my estimation, this is one of the things that brought the organization down. Because you can’t force people to think something is one way when it isn’t to them. So you end up with little bits of discontent that eventually becomes big.

  157. You had me at the first “VERY”.

  158. Are you going to be in TX for the party?

  159. Hi Ralph, while I didn’t read your entire thing I appreciate the commentary. I also don’t hold DM up as the only “who”. And while I don’t necessarily think this blog entry is the appropriate place (simply because it’s off-topic), it’d be fantastic to discuss it in detail.

    Considering every blog, forum, message board, etc. has a particular purpose, goal and ideal audience, maybe this one isn’t one where this kind of discussion will ever take place.

    What I’m pretty confident of is that the way the church is structured, even if DM were ousted and replaced with a new “leader”, we’d still be seeing a corrupted version of what I consider the church ought to be. But who knows?

  160. You forgot good looking (oh wait, that’s Vicki…)

  161. Tony DePhillips

    Sam you are very likeable.
    One of the things that I got out of Scientology was being connected to special people who think outside the box. Also courageous people. Sam you fit into both categories.
    I enjoy being with all the people who left the abusive dm-cult for the most part.
    Sometimes we disagree.
    But let’s not be too eager to condemn others.
    True, some people just seem to beg for a good verbal slap down once in awhile. And lord knows I am willing to dish it out at times. But, I do recall the cult of cabbage being very intolerant of divergent views. IMHO we do not want to get back into “group think”.
    It is ok to disagree right?
    Didn’t LRH say something like “if it isn’t true for you then it isn’t true.”?
    And of course, we here, are in Marty’s universe. He created this blog and we are visitors. We always have the right to start our own blog if we want to communicatet things that forward a different strategy. This is what free-market Scientology is IMO. Different people coming up with different groups. Offering up what they think is valuable and getting others to utilize those services if they feel they have value. There will be competition of ideas. I think it is better if that competition of ideas is done with as much ARC as possible as it will show the basic character of those involved and will create good PR for them.
    Marty is obviously doing a great job as witnessed by his stellar products and his fearless fight against the evil one. I would say that Marty has tons of ethics protection. Not that he needs that anymore.
    We are not in that kind of an environment any longer.
    Ok, my wife say’s I need to get back to work now. I guess I am in her universe too… Coming honey!!

  162. Well, I was kind of the “Marty-lite” in my org. While we weren’t physically beating people, I did rip a face or two off in my time. Worked with PIs and did other icky OSA stuff. And when it came time to bounce someone out of the org, there were few who could confront the physical act — me being one of them. I’ve put holes in walls and broken a thing or two as well, displaying my level of patience…

    As far as Vicki goes, you’re only touching the tip of the iceberg. I mean, she supported me through all of this — all while dealing with her own stuff (hopefully her write-up will be added so you can read it).

    She’s beautiful inside and out and I’m very honored that I get to love her on a full-time basis. 🙂

  163. It’s funny. I had planned on auditing and/or C/Sing in the field to make money after I left staff. But when they revoked all my certs on the way out, it sort of put the kibosh on that idea…

  164. Bozz,

    RTC isn’t even part of the Standard Scientology Org board.

    The only reason it exists is to ensure Orgs don’t alter the tech ie squirrel by abiding by their service and trade marks see HCOPL “Misrepresentation of Dianetics and Scientology”.

    The only actual power it has is either to grant or withhold licenses to these trade and service marks that is *all*.

    RTC was not established by Ron but by a group of Sea Org members. Many of them former Board of Directors of the now defunct Church of Scientology of California who had managed to convince the Ol’man to sign over the protection of his trade marks and service marks to RTC because of the failure of the GO.

    (Actually protecting the trade marks, services marks and copyrights of Scientology and Dianetics was one of the few things the GO did right because they were under the control of Mary Sue and not Jane Kember’s inveterate spooks.

    This is evidenced by the fact that under the GO OT III material was only published in one major publication while under RTC’s tender care it has been published by practically every publication and newspaper on the planet with few exceptions.)

    Anyway like Allstate they had managed to convince the Ol’man that they’d be safer in their hands than in the GO’s hands.

    Not really a “hard sell” at the time and that they would ensure the technical integrity and purity of the technology yada yada in nice legalese supplied by their “friends” who would become our “friends” sometime later.

    Ron not being a man who believed in putting his eggs all in one basket decided to transfer protection of his actual copyrights to a separate entity known as the Church of Spiritual Technology. One he founded himself with the express purpose of preserving the technology and assuming full control over the subject should it fall into hostile hands (like say the rabid squirrel and the nuts that he hangs out with that he calls his “friends”) or is altered in such a way that it becomes unworkable (seems the lil’ rodent and his backers have managed 2 for 2) by giving it the “option” to purchase the trade marks for $100 bucks.

    The only problem is that thanks to the glorious IRS “victory” the RTC has been granted the additional “right” of determining who is and who isn’t a Scientologist as any member of a bona fide “Scientology Organization” as determined by:

    Guess who?

    Slick huh?

    In one fell swoop of the IRS Commissioners hand they have managed to neutralize CST and turn it into a paper tiger.

    So much for the IRS “victory”.

    I mean talk about 180° reverse vectors!

    Basically we “won” by losing everything in 1993.

    Of course everyone who worked diligently at achieving this glorious victory thought they were carrying out the Ol’man’s last request according to ‘Trust B’ but only a few knew that this wasn’t so.

    Achieving 501ciii status had nothing to do with achieving tax exempt status for CST per “Trust B”.

    What it did achieve was to create a top down authoritarian structure known as the “Church of Scientology” that could be ruled as a virtual dictatorship by RTC.

    But I digress.

    The fact is that RTC is not part of the org board and never was.

    It is a separate legal entity that is not part of CSI therefore not part of the Church thus not on its org board . It is *not* a management body. This is what the legal documents say and what David Miscavige said when he lied in his deposition.

    It has and thereby David Miscavige has as much right to manage the Church as the CIA.

  165. I recall when I was on PAC during the GAT (I hadn’t been sent to Flag because I was currently mid-OT levels) how the place was under marshall law.

    I think that was Mar/Apr. ’96. Was Public at AO. I remember some heavy Ethics shit going on around there for a while, and SO staff was seen every morning hustling to post in a near panic state. Some Gestapo-Valent SO character barged right into the middle of my session and took my auditor’s E-Meter away. She was stunned. Good entertainment for me though … lol

    Found out later all the Meters had been pulled from the HGC.

  166. Sam, I think this is the very first ‘Sudden’ ack. Love it and you.

  167. martyrathbun09

    Organizationally it was the worst kind of violation of PL Why Organizations Stay Small (Danger Conditions). It wiped out Qual divisions in orgs around the planet. It promoted that Freewinds had the only Qual that could debug a person on his route up the bridge. And it was done, no surprise, solely for financial considerations. Not enough OT VIIs to deliver OT VIII to – some idiot came up with the “bright idea” to deliver “OT Debug” so they could keep the boat afloat.

  168. RJ — Where did you get the data that the powers of RTC changed with the IRS exemption?

  169. martyrathbun09

    Mike is being polite. They didn’t change one iota.

  170. In other words Joe he gave you an unreading item since “out ethics” is an item that is on the check list.

    To me that’s like an “auditor” doing a 53 getting “no reads” and starting to pull w/hs because he noticed you were critical at some point.

    Totally squirrel.

    Auditor can’t get a read on a prepared list therefore Pre OT or PC *must* be out ethics…


    I knew a Class VIII who could get a read on a plant (not one of those people who infiltrate orgs like ….you know who …but I mean a plant with green leaves and everything) by checking food ,water, sunlight on a meter he could find out what thing to remedy on a typical house plant.

    Never had that good intention myself (the guy was an “old” OT VII) but I could get reads on PC and Pre OTs even when they were doping or goofing off.

    So I could never understand why some auditor after a totally bogged Dn session couldn’t get an L3 to read.

    Total mystery????

    Something that became more mysterious after the wonderful “Golden Age of Tech” where “auditors” spent more time on chasing (more accurately dirtying) “dirty” needles than doing the correct RL.

    Also I was never too fabbed by the OT Debug thing.

    Personally I’ve always thought it was a squirrel misapp of the Debug Tech like these squirrelly “C/Ses” where the “C/S” would order the auditor to do FDSing or CMU handling on some weird case phenomenon instead of just frickin’ audit the PC.

    When I got one of those goofy C/Ses I used to query ’em with something like:

    “Are you f_cking kidding?????”

    “You want me to what?????”

    Made me real popular to some of those not particularly “bright eyed” but for sure “bushy tailed” C/Ses.


  171. Sara Finning

    Anne Greig who was on staff at Saint Hill when LRH was there tells the story of staff members who completed their contract. LRH insisted on seeing people before they left and he would have a chat, and say, ‘thank you for your service…’

  172. Welcome Richard & Vickie….
    VWD walking away from what appears to be the mother of all implant stations. Who would have thought the Church of Scientology is an enslaver of thetans.
    Hope to meet the two of you sooner than later.
    I am flowing you much admiration just 12 miles north of one very dangerous sector on this planet….that would be FLAG located in Clearwater, FL.
    I’m sure your well written story will help to wake up others who are still drinking the Kool-Aid.

  173. martyrathbun09

    RJ, I don’t have time to read your comments most of the time, let alone hundreds of pages of links. Can you sum up your point in a few sentences?

  174. “RJ, I don’t have time to read your comments most of the time, let alone hundreds of pages of links. Can you sum up your point in a few sentences?”


    Thanks Marty 😉

    Okay without getting into a powerpoint presentation with all the diagrams and flow charts etc.

    What the IRS Secret Closing Agreement did was give RTC and David Miscavige in particular more power than they and he already had:

    First symbolically it made him appear as the St. George of Scientology by giving the impression that he and he alone single handedly slew the Dragon of the IRS.

    Yeah I know he gave you some cred Marty but it was him not you on the stage at the LA Sports Area announcing this so called “victory” over the forces of darkness and now embracing these same forces as “friends”.

    Like saying I’ve beat the Devil and now Satan is our friend.

    Secondly that new “Description of Scientology” you know the one so gratuitously distributed by our new “friends” in InterPol not only changed the definition of Scientology to a subject that is based on the works of L Ron Hubbard in a derivative sense as in squirrel (I mean EST, Amprinistics, The Process are all subjects that are to a greater or lesser degree based on the works of LRH) but also changed the definition of what a Scientologist is from that contained in the Technical Dictionary to basically someone who is a member of a RTC licensed Scientology organization thus giving RTC and thus David Miscavige license to say who is a Scientologist and who is not.

    Finally if you look over the “Secret Closing Agreement” itself it also establishes a new entity within the Church know as the “Church Tax Compliance Committee” and also creates a new bureau or section in OSA known as the “Tax Compliance Section” to ensure every “Scientology entity” is in compliance of the tax laws.

    Guess who the head of that committee is?

    Here’s what Ron has to say about this:

    “The true ruler of every citizen including those at the top would be that bureau one had to report to or else.”

    You can read the rest of the article at the following link:

    Anyway there is much more than this in those hundreds of pages of legal dox.

    But I’d say they are good enough for a start.

    As I said I suggest reading them sometime.

  175. one of those who see

    Hi Suzanne, Hi Craig!
    So great to see you here. What an informative write up from Richard and Vickie!
    Have a good slice of pizza for me!
    still jealous LOL

  176. martyrathbun09

    The granting of exemption gave no new powers to RTC. David Miscavige used the fact of exemption in a propaganda roll out as part of a coup that involved hundreds – literally – of propanda events over thirty years. The granting of exemption gave him no powers. The CTCC ONLY put responsibility for accounting on specific individuals so live humans could be held accountable should some mispresentation of magnitude be discovered in the next few years.

  177. RJ — From past experience, it is a waste of time to provde you with information that doesnt match your ideas, but I will endeavor to be as inoffensive as I can. And I HAVE read all the documents. And I participated in the Tax Compliance Committee annual meetings withe IRS and the head of the Tax Compliance Section in OSA was Jim Morrow who was three or four echelons below me, but my direct responsibility. The IRS settlement changed nothing as far as the powers of RTC or Miscavige went other than the public support he gained from it. In fact, it was the ONE thing that could have prevented him from taking over the whole shooting match because the exemption allowed the Estate to transfer to CST and CST became a real entity. The one that SHOULD have reined in Miscavige and taken away his ability to do anything with the trademarks. That was how LRH set it up (not the IRS). Problem is Russ Bellin and the others at CST didnt believe they could exercise that power. The IRS gave CST the ability to put an end to Miscavige. You can have whatever theories you want about why Miscavige managed to dominate Bellin and company, but you won’t find that contained in any Closing Agreement or anything else with regard to the IRS. It’s a theory that has been bandied about for years — but if you DO actually study the documents, it proves the OPPOSITE. That is reality.

  178. Scott Campbell

    Richard & Vicki,

    Wow. What a lucid synopsis of your time in the C of S. The point at which you became introspective on the subject and started to notice the dichotomies was particularly hard-hitting to me.

    Richard. Your writing made me think of this quote from LRH: “He who can truly communicate to others is a higher being who builds new worlds.”

    Welcome out to the Independent Field. I’m sure you can recapture the old magic of real Scientology out here amongst friends.

    Some words from Jimi:

    L, Scott

  179. RJ — BTW, I can’t qute figure out where you get off accusing Marty of “bullying” you. You made statements about the power of RTC being changed by the IRS. Marty said this was not true. Remember RJ, Marty was a corporate official of RTC during that time and for many years subsequently. He DOES know. And your snide comment “As I said I suggest reading them sometime” is really off the wall. Every word of those documents was pored over with a fine tooth comb, I promise you. Both in the structure of the entities in the first place, all the articles of incorporation and bylaws, and every page of the IRS record and every word of the Closing Agreement. Marty has porbably read every one of them a dozen times, as have I. So, instead of being a condescending know-it-all with an attitude, why don’t you take the opportunty to get educated by someone who has first hand knowledge and expertise about something that you could only watch from the peanut gallery.

    As I have said before RJ, your manhood isnt being challenged when someone gives you data that you couldnt have had.

  180. Gary Morehead - a.k.a Jackson

    Well stated. I’m the first to tell anyone interested – “I’m a Fuck Up”… a fuck up with a bag full of learned lessons. I’m on the automatic mail list for new bags so I can keep stuffing the valuable lessions in’em . I’m a fuck up who laughs at least once a day, works to get others around me and in my life to laugh at least twice a day.

    I love the people I myself choose to have in my life and I love them dearly. The “dearly” ones know who they are and I do all I can to reward them for being so in my life. You being one of them! Hell I have a few bags marked “Samantha” chock full of what I have learned from you! I’ve never told you this but I know you know about it!!

    Anyway Richard and Viki are great people worthy of the shirt off my back if they so ask…. anytime!

    Cheers my sweet friend across the pond!

    — Jackson

  181. one of those who see

    Richard wrote “I had a realization shortly after finishing my GAT training (which at the time I thought was a good one – in hindsight it wasn’t), that with the advent of the GAT we no longer had “good” or “bad” auditors, we simply had auditors.
    As Snr C/S I watched as the subject was systematically ruined – doing our best to churn out rote, robotic “auditors” as fast as possible.”
    Thank you for observing and writing about what you observed. This data is so important especially coming from a C/S.

    You covered so much in your write up:
    1. the crippling debt
    2. Lack of time for family & life
    3. Inablility to finish a contract and leave an upstat who is appreciated
    4. The penalizing of upstats

    At the point where you wrote that the church suspended your certs pending retrain – I lost it.
    What an incredible being you are to persist with your theta goal to help no matter what. The KR on you for being too uptone during finishing your F & Rs is just too much! A good demo of the Church being Type III as Steve wrote about.
    If you ask me the “golden age of tech” does exist – in the Indie field. Although we may want to give it another name. LOL – Oh I know, how about good ole’ Standard Tech.

    So Vickie and Richard thank you for all you have done to help forward Ron’s intention of freeing beings. Screw the ramblings of the suppressive or misguided. All of us out here are applauding.

  182. one of those who see

    Ofcourse. thanks for the story!

  183. Mike,

    Are you suggesting that I have one or two service facs?????

    Well you’re wrong!!!!!!


    All kidding aside.

    I did manage to stay somewhat awake when I read the closing agreement, Trusts A&B, the Transfer Agreement including the CST option, both CST and RTC incorporation and articles etc, etc and from what I’ve read it could be interpreted either way legally.

    That is CST has ultimate power because it holds the copyrights and has the option to assume control over the Trademarks

    Or CST has no actual power because RTC determines who can be one of its Trustees.

    Maybe Bellin knew this and thus didn’t act.

    I mean it didn’t seem to matter to CMOI that Mary Sue happened to be the Controller by life time appointment personally by Ron himself when they forced her to step down by a power push.

    Maybe Bellin expected a similar fate himself or worse if he acted.

    However one shouldn’t wonder simply why he failed to act. One should ask why HCO has failed to act when they hold all copyrights and trademarks in perpetuity according to HCOPL 15 November AD8 ‘The Substance and First Duty of HCO’ which as far as I know has never been canceled.

    I mean if HCO had any balls they could demand that HCO take order and nullify RTC and the panty waists at CST by reissuing the above PL through the Hubbard Communications Office and send Dave and Russ packing.

  184. Scott Campbell

    The Conventions, Seminars and OT Hatting Conferences were also mocked up to solve the same problem.

    Ian Cunningham (WDC Ship) delivered that problem to a joint E/C meeting of the Flag Ship Service Org (FSSO) and Freewinds Ship Org (FWSO).

    When briefing us on the problem of no flow up the bridge (due to lack of VII’s and the NOTS retread of VIII’s), he was met with a response from the Chief Officer FSSO. She said: “That doesn’t make any sense. There must be gross out-tech on the line.”

    Cunningham’s response:

    “It’s a mind-fuck, I know. You can’t think with it. But we’ve got to keep the bodies in the shop!” This was shouted as he pounded the conference table with his fist in synchronization with the words, “got to keep the bodies in the shop!”

    The Chief Officer and I looked at each other in stunned amazement, like, “Did you hear what he just said? Is that what this is all about?” While the rest of the table sat there watching him and nodding, trancelike – in agreement.

    That is the moment when I realized that all was not right in the land of OZ…

  185. barneyrubble

    Well stated Mike Rinder. I don’t know whats up with RJ other than he is Keyed In into some incident. This has disturbingly been occuring more often in the past few months.

  186. Cool, we are all in accord. And if you think you got bigger Ser Facs than me, I assure you, you’re wrong! I’m Australian!

    HCO, CST, palace revolt — someone by some means, whether “authorized” or not should have acted. I dont count myself out of that equation by any means. In fact, I think I was high on the list of “should have acteds.” Unfortunately, you dont see too clearly until you get out of the environment and clear your head a bit.

  187. Jackson, you are one cool, humble, honest gentle giant that I am happy to call a friend.

  188. Okay Mike,

    As you may have gathered by now that I don’t respond well to *authority*.

    Marty said he didn’t have time to read all the documents that I linked to prove my case and I merely suggested he read them sometime.

    There was nothing “snide” about this communication.

    As an analogy.

    Are you suggesting that because I am a lowly Class VI that I should never suggest to a Class VIII that he read over the issues that I feel he was in error of when I review his auditing because he’s a Class VIII?

    You know because he’s been through all the Technical References with a “fine tooth comb”.

    That’s setting up some kind of priesthood as far as I’m concerned.

    I thought we left that kind of think behind when we left the Church of Scientology.

  189. GetTheConcept

    Wow, this is sure one educational section of this blog! Thanks for the understanding, everyone.

  190. Thanks for the eval Rubble but no I haven’t had any incidents that have “keyed in” lately.

    However I suggest you read the HCOB entitled “Illegal Auditing”.

    If there is one bone I like to pick it is people doing case evaluations outside of session.

  191. Apples and oranges RJ. I am suggesting you should recognize someone who has seen and done things you could not possibly have participated in is in a better position to know what happened, and that you should recognize that there may be one or two people in the world that know some things that you dont know. That’s no priesthood, that’s common sense. A presthood would be asserted rightness without any basis other than the assertion. Hardly the case here.

    If we took a poll on this blog whether telling Marty he should read the IRS documents “sometime” as “you have suggested” was snide or not might not bring a result that would please you. Just a wild guess on my part.

  192. Well okay Mike,

    Let’s get back to a modus vivendi here.

    The fact is anyone of us could have acted at some time or another and didn’t which is why we’re in the mess we’re in.

    Some day as a group we may spot the prior confusion connected to all this and the incident will blow along with the terminals connected with it.

  193. Wow Scott.
    This anecdote tells a lot.
    Thanks for posting it.

  194. Sam,

    That was brilliant! But I am so caved right now that I had to ask for help to type this. I’m done for.

  195. ClearlyMistreated

    Wow, so many comments. I finally caught up! Thanks for all the friendly comments and encouragement. It’s so nice to have so many new friends.
    -Vicki Palmer

  196. Mike,


    I don’t do well with democracy either 🙂

    So a vote on whether I was snide or not wouldn’t impress me either way.

    Now on the other hand if Marty felt I was being snide than I apologize.

    It wasn’t intended that way.

    There are areas that I consider myself to be an expert on that I don’t mind people telling me that maybe I should do some further study on like say auditing.

    Or maybe having a better comm cycle 😉

    Don’t get me wrong Mike I treasure any pearls of wisdom that you or Marty bring to this forum.

    I mean I’m not a total swine 🙂

    However I tend to question things from my own unique perspective and have my own opinion about things.

    As you may have noticed.

    I mean I’ve even questioned the Ol’man at times personally and he used to answer me nicely back on SO #1 and gave me the reference he was applying.

    Or I’d give him my opinion about something and he’d give me a hardy ack.

    (In fact the crazier the opinion the hardier the ack was.

    Let’s say the Ol’man was good at stopping things before they got started 😉 )

    Yes I know Marty was there and so were you.

    But did you know that even though Victor Marchetti worked in the highest echelons of CIA that he never had the same front line perspective of the Organization that Philip Agee had?

    Just compare the books ‘Cult of Intelligence’ to ‘Inside the Company’.

    This is the reason why we *had* a multiple view point system before an “all knowing” management took over who just gave everybody “orders” to follow.

    And why even the lowest janitor could query an order.

    So no matter how high you were in the Organization it still affected us peons down below whether it was ‘Snow white’ or ‘The Secret Closing Agreement’.

  197. which is almost as bad as doing case evaluations in session but without the added thrill of throwing the cans at the auditor 😉

  198. Sudden Sam. Love a Sudden Sam. You are one theta gal!

    ML Tom

  199. Tony
    Communication is one thing but only visiting to invalidate and leave snide jabs is another.

  200. Marty,

    Thanks for the back story on the OT Debug.

    ‘Splains a lot 🙂

  201. Rocky the Squirrel

    The Executive Branch of The United States Government is ALMOST as corrupt as the Church of Scientology – and David Miscavige himself.

    Congratulations to Richard & Vickie for gathering the strength to pry themselves free from the wicked cult that David Miscavige has created.

    Let Freedom Ring.

  202. Yup, that would have been the years…

  203. That’s a very good point on the Danger conditions — hadn’t really thought much about it. But you’re right. Any org (or anyone with a bit of training) could have done that list. Heck, it was on the Pro Word Clearer course!

    In retrospect, if they wanted to earn some income they could have offered the HC Outpoint Pluspoint lists. Those things are amazing — I’ve seen really great results with & without prefacing them…

    I’m only bringing that up because it would have at least gotten some people in session…

  204. Great to hear from you, Gary. It’s been nice being able to chew the fat when we’re at a gathering. Don’t know if you’ll be in TX but if so, I look forward to more of the same. 🙂

  205. That always seemed like it would be a rational thing to do. I mean, why burn the bridges between you and your most loyal people, right? 🙂

  206. Great words, thank you!

  207. Well thank you very much. I appreciate the kind words. 🙂

  208. Under-the-radar

    Fascinating example of knowing about vs. knowing

    I have been racing cars my entire life and been a champion. Meet a guy who has read all of the books on racing cars, then challenges me as not really knowing.

    My suggestion to that guy (you), if you want to really know; Start racing cars and get a firm reality on where the rubber meets the road (or get a job at OSA Int.).

    I am a Student Hat comp : )

  209. By the authority vested in me by the ancient shamans of Manchuria, I hereby reinstate all your Certs. 🙂

  210. “The CTCC ONLY put responsibility for accounting on specific individuals so live humans could be held accountable should some mispresentation of magnitude be discovered in the next few years.”

    Sorry Marty I don’t see it that way.

    The IRS by insisting on a CTCC has made it difficult for the Church to remove any terminal which includes David Miscavige from post using its ethics and justice procedures without approval from the IRS since according to the Closing Agreement.

    *It is a lifetime appointment*

    Thus far from assigning responsibility it allows the IRS to take over Department 3 functions to a greater or lesser degree.

    Also prior to the SCA David Miscavige’s influence over the organization was somewhat limited.

    He became virtually omnipotent after the agreement.

    This may not seem so from your perspective by it seemed obvious from mine.

    In other words before this so called ‘victory’ his influence over the organization at lower echelons was nominal.

  211. martyrathbun09

    Ok RJ, I get your point. Don’t necessarily agree with everything after “it is a lifetime appointment.” However, I will say all of management’s reality on everything external facing was supplied only by Miscavige. And he used the fact of him being “trusted” to maintain tax exemption to further cement a bunch of people already under his thumb in their lemming frames of mind. I guess I just took issue with your absolute statement, ignoring hundreds of other factors that preceded and followed tax exemption.

  212. martyrathbun09

    Good analogy.

  213. martyrathbun09

    Sam, the PL Safeguarding Technology also comes into play imho.

  214. martyrathbun09

    Thanks for that bit of eye witness testimony Scott.

  215. martyrathbun09

    I agree, that was one of the more profound parts of Richard’s post – on the null auditors. I’ve already used his anecdote to explain the suppressive nature of GAT and will continue to do so.

  216. Brilliant just brilliant and I am 100% sure your story is similiar to all other Class V Org staff. I guarantee practically EVERYTHING you wrote is EXACTLY the scene in the “land down under”, your story was like listening to my own thoughts except I could have never written something so articulate and wonderful. Thank you so much and I hope we all get to read Vicki’s version too.

  217. Excellent Richard and Vickie. It cannot have been easy to leave at this time having somehow endured the various tortuous happenings around the orgs – Flag and training at this time.

    Being a well respected member of the organization carries with it that feeling that you just can’t let anyone down.

    I blew from Flag at a time I had been transferred to a newish post. I didn’t have a “following” and felt no one depended on me. So — off I went, figuring I wouldn’t be missed. And wasn’t for over 24 hours.

    (my ex was on Mission and therefore didn’t know)

    So — prying yourself from all those lines and webs and considerations — that
    takes the JAWS OF LIFE!! 🙂

    Good for you.


  218. Marty

  219. Almost a duplicata of my situation, very re-affirming for me. Thank you guys and enjoy the freedom to BE-DO-HAVE freely again without suppression.

  220. “Start of locational.
    Look at that silly auditor over there. (Sam)
    Thank you.
    You’re laughing… what’s happening?
    Thank you for that!
    End of locational.”

  221. Okay! Okay. I’ll quit posting on DM’s link from the other day.
    It was fun while it lasted, pointing out all the typo’s, grammer errors, ordering DM to Qual to re-do KTL and such. But you’re right: I need to stop with the snide jabs at DM.

    I’ll be a good boy now. 🙂

    Oh… wait. You weren’t talking to me? Cool!
    Never mind! 😉

  222. EXCUSE ME! Did I actually hear you right? Barged into your session and took the meter? Now the bellylaugh is starting–hear me roar!
    Clowns! Incredible hubris! We are more important than the sacred code of the auditor! We are more important than the PC! We are more important than that old fart what’s-his-name! Continued snortful laughing! ….

  223. Richard, you never noticed all those arrows sticking out of your back where that round circle target thing is? Takes a good man to keep on running with that many wounds and not even notice! LOL

  224. Sorry folks, I gotta say something else here. For years I have watched Richard “walking wounded,” not understanding how the testimony of a suppressive person could be used against him in a court of ethics in spite of his upstat production record, not understanding how he could keep recruiting staff members and have each one of them ripped off by the SO and other orgs and never see his own org flourish from all the effort he was putting into it. While on staff he worked full time to make ends meet. For years he lived upstairs with wife and baby at his in-laws’ place to be able to afford to be on staff. And yet staff ripped his face off and kicked him to the gutter. And he didn’t complain for such a long time. And he’s not the only Seattle staff member who started out trying to help the world and wound up carrying deep scars and not understanding what THEY did wrong. Most of them don’t like to talk about it because they hate it when they start to tear up in public. There, rant over.

  225. Sugar Plum Fairey

  226. I’m going to make a brief arguement and then drop this. RJ, you’ve stated your side and I believe Mike stated his VERY well.

    But the black and white of the IRS docs doesn’t negate the fact that whatever the hell they say, David is going to do whatever he wants to anyway.

    Is RTC part of the org board? Last one I studied, yes. They are not in direct allignment with the echellon and all as Ron intended, but yes. And through make-wrong and bullying, he has apparently worked his way all the way into the Ivory Tower! How the hell did that happen? I doubt seriously the IRS had anything to do with that!

    So, put all the “dox” aside and realize, we have a genuine, bone fide SP here at work. He needs no rationalization and justification for his actions beyond his own Bank!

    Things are bass ackwards in the world of CoS and RTC and so any and all attempts to explain anything are futile. Don’t amount to diddly squat because the FACT remains what David “Holier Than Thou” Miscavage rules with an iron fist!

    Let those who want sanity seek it elsewhere… like here! In the world of the Indpendents! Because they sure aren’t going to find it in L.A., or Int, or Flag, or…
    Can you question? Yes! Sure! But question David? Why bother? He’s a whack job and will never make sense. THAT is what I’m saying.

  227. Mrs. Friend of Ron

    You sure miss a lot when you’re away from the blog for a few days!
    Congratulations and and huge welcome to you two and everyone seeing the light!
    I completed a rundown on my first independent PC yesterday and just got her permission to post her success story on the blog, so I’ll take this opportunity to do so…
    “After completing the [Scn] Drug Rundown I feel that I have really confronted all of the harmful drugs I put into my body in the past.
    I know I don’t need to take any of these drugs or alcohols. I am in control and I know I have the choices to put in my body what I want. I don’t need any of these drugs any more and I feel healthy and really good about it. I really enjoyed the rundown auditing and found it to be enlightening.” (smiley face) N.C.
    …After all the same kinds of inval as an auditor that you and others have experienced and expressed here, and thinking I would not be able to audit again, let alone receive my own Bridge… There is so much I could say, but being able to watch a being recover so much theta in front of my eyes again, well there just aren’t any MEST universe words to express it.
    As Marty recently said… …Imagine…

  228. Eeewww! This gives me such a thought! IF someone leaves staff, that means they are no longer in agreement with whatever is happening there. THAT means they might have viewed overts. THAT misses all the withholds. THAT gets everyone willing to natter and criticize them. LOL

  229. Welcome! 🙂

  230. Sugar Plum Fairey

    We might as well take the same tone with DM as Billy Connelly took with God:

  231. Gary Morehead a.k.a Jackson

    You omitted the “dismantling and tearing apart of ones spouse, family and friends”.

    And… Indulgence into how the person is a closeted gay, lesbian or transvestite or beastiality!

    To all who read this and other posts by you….. The chill that runs up and down your spine while reading these “pgms

  232. You are so right, Joe, especially your last sentence – “treating your workers the way you’d truly like to be treated, will make the most loyal staff you can imagine”.

    I have 100% subjective reality on this as someone who has employed dozens of people over the years.

    It is one of those “duh!” things, almost too easy.

    I have never had a problem understanding why LRH needed and wanted to create or develop toughness in SO staff. It IS a tough universe, only the tigers survive, etc, and there is always counter effort to deal with in any game.

    But how could anyone, especially in this subject of Scientology, knowing what we know about ARC, permit, encourage, validate yelling at staff, overworking them, failing to train and audit them properly, provide them with decent living conditions, come up with ideas like “RPF” as a way of correction – I just don’t get it and I guess I never will.

    None of those things are necessary to develop competent, tough staff. It is so much easier to develop those qualities by using ARC, treating your staff with dignity, acknowledging them for demonstrating competence – as you say, treating them as you would like to be treated.

    If you do, you’ll have the most loyal, dedicated staff imaginable.

    It’s just too easy.

  233. Sugar Plum Fairey

    Speakin of dwarfs:

  234. Gary Morehead a.k.a Jackson

    Part 2…. Reading these OTDT Pgms is and has been the best duplication of the bone chilling reality of the Int Base one could muster! So much so you could call them FACT!

    Thank you OTDT!!

    — Jackson

  235. Tony DePhillips

    Wasn’t trying to protect snide jabbers.

  236. Further background data on this:

    At the time the OT Debug was conceived, FSSO GI stats were crashed, the org was insolvent. After the first wave of accumulated Solo NOTS completions went through OT VIII, it slowed to a tiny trickle. Ship BIS were extremely low. I remember many weeks it was around 30 (capacity was closer to 300.) Ship staff were on beans and rice for a LONG time.

    OT Debug was a GI and BIS solution for FSSO and Freewinds, nothing more.

    If memory serves correctly, it was right around this time that Milt Wolfe was removed as CO FSSO. As I remember, his replacement (Ellyelle Bauman) fared even worse. She ended up on the RPF, twinning with the English lady who used to be the doctor.

  237. Horrific story HOWEVER, at least your marriage survived this awful out tech. My marriage did not and I know others whose marriage crumbled under the crippling pressure…

  238. Tony, I enjoy your posts a great deal too & would very much like to meet you and some of my other favorite posters too. Unfortunately it won’t be this year. My necessity to remain under the radar is not based on family or even friends, really, but only economics. I’m talking necessity level economics. But the moment I am able to gain my independence from that problem will be the moment of my “coming out”.

    Wish me luck & I hope to meet you (and your wife) at the 2012 indy celebration.

  239. ps: though I also must tell you, when I do come out, it will be one more addition to the already formidable Texas team!

  240. Tony Dephillips

    Here is an example of what Im talking about. LRH says in Science of Survival, that anything which brings the person up tone is valid therapy. Let’s say a person uses skype and does self analysis lusts on someone. It brings them uptone. Wouldn’t that be a valid therapy?

  241. UTR,

    How nice of you to take sides.

    However you really don’t know me and therefore can not judge whether what I write about is purely theory.

    BTW I was never in OSA Int but I worked in an Organization that was closely associated with at the Int level called CCHR.

    You might have heard or *read* about it?

  242. Tony Dephillips

    Meant lists not lusts. Freudian slip.

  243. one of those who see

    Tears in my eyes. This is what it’s about. Well done to you for rising above and continuing to free beings.
    …And the world gets a bit brighter.

  244. Bozz,

    My only problem with the “Lone Miscavige Theory” is that it assigns the lil’ SP Squirrel more blame and thus more power than he deserves.

    All SPs who have any kind of apparent “power” have their facilitators and willing accomplices.

  245. Tony
    You are correct. But bringing a 1.1 up to antagonism is quite a leap. I don’t think we’re quite ready for anything much higher than that when dealing with snide comments just yet. Don’t mistake a valid use of the tone scale (communicating where a person’s reality is at) with lacking in ARC. This group is very high toned and we are used to theta communication as a rule but it isn’t where everyone is at and there are exceptions.

  246. ROFLMAO!!
    Oooops! Once it’s gone there’s nothing you can do about it 🙂

  247. martyrathbun09

    So is bowling Tony.

  248. Tony DePhillips

    I do wish you luck and know you will pull it off, even if you are a Texan… 🙂

  249. Tony DePhillips

    Good point Marty. I would argue that it IS a valid therapy. Even if LRH says that those who go bowling instead of going onto course are somewhat suppressive. Some things just don’t agree, so I think we have to give people a wide berth. I know you do Marty, this isn’t meant as an attack on you. You know you are my hero. I just be jaw jackin to hear myself talk. I just love the sound of my own voice.

  250. Tony DePhillips

    Hi Sam,
    Maybe they will use that against me now?? 🙂
    As for you, I already owed you one and now it’s two. You said you disagreed with me and the penalty for that is death as a thetan. I said that I liked you and you were courageous, did you disagree with that too?? BOT!!! 🙂

  251. Tony DePhillips

    Hi Sam,
    We will have a long dissertation about this over drinks at the Indy party. At that time I will prove to you conclusively that I am right about all things. You just haven’t given me time to show you everything that I know yet.

  252. And the pitter patter of your fingers on the keyboard? 🙂

  253. RJ:
    We’ve run outta room!!!

    I’ll concede he’s not a lone-gunman. DM is not the one and only WHO behind the WHY of it all.

    But if you’re looking for the As-Isness of the whole thing, good luck. And I mean that! I wish I had more data. I hope Marty can find the time to finish whatever book on Ron he’s working on, because I want a copy and will read it several times! If you can find all the other “who’s” involved, I do wish you the very best. But at some point in time, none of it will matter anymore. Cat is outta the bag. Horse is outta the gate. Your animal of choice is outta the proverbial structure and there is no changing that.

    E.D. Int dropped the ball?
    Starky didn’t pick up the ball?
    Marty did slap DM with ethics?
    Mike didn’t say no when he should have?
    How about Mao not calling on HCO back in the day?
    How about Ron trusting his CMO lines a little too much?
    Who ever is to blame, at what ever point in time, the fact of the matter remains we are all HERE. NOW.
    And as I’ve stated numerous times now: I’m over it. New Game is started, as far as I’m concerned.

  254. Something tells me Volkov can do that.
    Don’t question him, Joe. Get your meter and get to work!

  255. martyrathbun09

    Tony, I’ve come a long way – even since when you were down here. I’ve audited a number of VIIs, VIIIs, several at the bottom of the bridge, and just about everything in between. You know I have opened my mind to virtually anything. And through all this, I have come to have a deeper understanding and appreciation of the tech than ever. So, you and I need to have a conversation at the lake too – only before you get too oiled.

  256. Tony Dephillips

    Yes Mike, the tapping of the keys makes me feel very impotent. I mean important.
    Marty and Mike,
    I look forward to talking with you. Non oiled and then oiled, just for some pleasant randomity.
    Your friend.

  257. martyrathbun09

    you got it:)

  258. Hilarious! So extremely unserious. Have I told all you guys lately how much I like you?

    Just Me

  259. 🙂 Go for it, Valkov.

  260. REALLY good point you’ve made there, Freedom Fighter. Excellent observations.

  261. Sugar Plum Fairey

    To paraphrase Billy, “Hey Mr. Davie Dwarf, we hope when you get home to the Int Base, Snow White KICKS YOUR ASS!!:

  262. Yeah, it was quite an interesting view of things. I remember when I was auditing in LA, we’d have out-of-town PCs come in or a big-wig FSM that needed handling and the D of P, being a shrewd fellow, would fit the PCs with a compatible auditor.

    The PC that typically flew along and was here for a week or two for grades was given to a green intern. The PC was happy because he could get a lot of hours delivered daily and the auditor acquired some confidence that he wasn’t going to “break” people. And after a bunch of intensives like this, you ended up with an auditor.

    The FSM that was all buggered up, however, was handled by a much more skilled (not necessarily higher-classed) auditor. One that was very smooth and not having to think so much, but was able to totally be there for the PC. A huge, heaping, dose of ARC can go a looooong way, I’ll tell you that.

    But once the GAT auditors started coming off the line there was less and less ARC and more and more “procedure”. I had a very hard time with this, personally (as an auditor and C/S). Because I had PCs that I loved and was there for, but had to treat them in a robotic fashion. And I had to require this of auditors.

    Truth be told, I wasn’t very good as a GAT auditor. I continually had to get off “overts” of not doing things “right”. I did conditions and other actions related to my “destructive tendencies towards ‘actually’ clearing the planet with the GAT” and got attacked by various terminals for passing TRs & metering that weren’t “up to the standard of the GAT” (when in fact they were perfect, citing HCOPL Instruction & Examination, Raising The Standard Of).

  263. It’s a sad thing that so many experienced the same/similar, isn’t it? I’m very glad you’re out, too!

  264. I agree 100%. I’d be lying if I said the church didn’t make a go of messing that up too — more than once!

  265. martyrathbun09


  266. Bozz,

    I agree!!!!

    This is getting to be the thread from hell.

    I also agree with every word you wrote and would like to add the listing question of “W/W f_cked up the Organization?” is gettin’ to be about the deadest horse that’s ever been beaten 🙂

    Anyway I’m looking forward to reading Marty’s book too.

    So Marty get the damn thing written so Bozz and I can stop whining.


  267. Bill Straass

    I was in the SO for 23 years, first at FSO and then as the Mechanics Chief Freewinds. I recieved a bad blood transfusion in 1989 when the ship was in Curacao. This was not spotted until 2002 whwn I was more than half dead and was finally diagnosed with AIDS. I was not informed of this by ship personell. I was sent to LA to see Dr Denk. “for further testing”. When I walked into his office he looked up and said: They didn’t tell you, did they.? He told me I needed to go to the AIDS clinic in LA but the ship sent me to a chiro in Sacramento who was not a licensed medical doctor. He advised me not to take the standard medical treatment as it was “worse than HIV” Meanwhile my wife was being held prisioner on the ship and was told that I would be dead soon so she should just end cycle on me. It became a self-fulfilling prophecy. She finally got off the ship when it was almost too late and I recovered quickly when I recieved the proper treatment. I have been fine since.
    For 10 years I told people I worked with that the only way off the ship was “in a box”.
    It will take 50 pages to tell the rest of the story.
    You may publish my full name, rank and serial number.
    It must be quite an embarrasment to the Captain to have to admit that I am still alive so there is nothing else they can do to me.
    Former Mechanics Chief Freewinds
    Bill Straass

  268. Pingback: That feeling of being lost. « SILVIA KUSADA's Blog

  269. Holy crap, man! I am extremely happy you’re doing alright now. Talk about getting off the lines of suppression and recovering! Not sure if you’re still with your wife, but I’m happy to hear she got off the ship as well…

  270. Does anyone know of a way to get a hold of Steve?

  271. Thanks a lot, Jack!

  272. You betcha, guys!
    Not only are all Richard and Vicki’s Certs reinstated, refueled with sparkle and restored up to where they absolutely sparkle and glow even in the daylight, but the Manchurian Khakhan Association (MKKA) has adopted Richard and Vicki as two of their own for the excellent website they put up, the letters they are sending out, the Goldenrods they have written, and their generally awesome “skill in means”!

    They are granted carte blanche to bring the headless carcass of the Dim One to the annual “buzkashi” (central Asian polo played on horseback) game to be used as the “weenie”, the role usually played by a goat’s or calf’s carcass. They say his head may be used for whatever – a game of bowling, a shot-put competition, a game of rugby….. They would like to watch on ESPN as they put away many gallons of “kvass” ( a fermented beverage).

    It’s not that these Manchurian thetans are blood-thirsty, they are just much aggrieved that the Dim One misappropriated “men on horseback” as a symbol for his IAS scam, and they have been feeling that it is his environs that ought to be torched….

    However, the MKKA does feel that Richard and Vicki, Marty, Mike and the other allies will be able to disempower the Dim One without actually disemboweling him, beheading him, 0r shedding any blood in the process.

    In fact they have started a betting pool and are giving 10:1 odds the coup will be bloodless when the Dim One falls.

    Well that’s all today’s news and views from the Far East.

  273. Yes, many under the radar!

  274. Pingback: Ziba Feulner – OT VIII | Der Treffpunkt

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