Why We Stay by Mike Rinder

Mike just posted the following as a comment in response to another comment.  To me it is one of those gems that cuts right to the heart of matters.  It is timely since literally thousands of  Corporate Scientologists have had some eye opening revelations come their way over the past two months.  It behooves us all to consider who we are dealing with, what motivates them, and what considerations and concerns they harbor. It also is useful to examine the other side of the coin, and so, below the first article please see “Why We Leave” by Steve “Thoughtful” Hall.

Why We Stay by Mike Rinder

This is a really difficult subject to explain. I look back and wonder why I stayed as long as I did. And I have given this a lot of thought, and I am sure there are a lot of scholarly and learned treatises that would explain this phenomena. I have only analyzed this for myself and what I have seen or heard with others.

I believe there is a “perfect storm” of factors in the RCS, and though I am certain many of these things are not unique to the RCS, I believe its hard to find anything that has ALL of these things acting in concert. And to one degree or another, I believe each of these apply to everyone involved in the RCS (SO, staff and public).

1. You feel an obligation to not violate your personal integrity by withdrawing allegiance from a group you have committed to. And the flip side of that coin, you are heavily invested in something (whether financially or emotionally or both) and to walk away from it requires admitting you were wrong/stupid/duped.

2. You don’t want to let others down. People who have relied on you, supported you, looked up to you. You value their friendship and don’t want to upset them.

3. You believe that to forsake the RCS and Miscavology is to abandon your eternity as there is no other “brand” of Scientology, everything else is pure squirrel suppressiveness which will drive you into a state of black MEST (meanwhile, this is the object of the reverse Scientology being run in the RCS). Even the idea of “abandoning your eternity” is contrary to fundamental Scientology principles – its an impossibility.

4. You have to walk away from your family, friends or business associates. The level of trauma associated with this depends on the degree of immersion in the “Scientology bubble.” Sea Org members often have to decide to leave a spouse and/or children. They normally have no college degree and no resume and no money. Many public Scientologists also have family who will dicsonnect or they will lose their jobs or their customers.

5. It is hammered into you that whatever condition you find yourself in — YOU “pulled it in” — whether it is being beaten and tortured or bankrupted by heavy pressure regging. It is always what YOU did and the organization/Miscavige is NEVER wrong. Then to “blow” only proves it further — its YOUR O/Ws. This mindset is cemented with the “sec checking” that has become routine operating procedure in the RCS. Think a critical thought about anything and you will pay (literally or figuratively or both) with a sec check that doesnt conclude until you find some O/W (real or imagined) that makes YOU responsible.

6. The thought that whatever injustice/abuse/difficulty/hardship you may be experiencing, it is “nothing” in the overall scheme of things. a) You have no doubt experienced worse on the whole track, so why get upset? b) physical pain and duress don’t damage you spiritually so what’s the big deal and c) the biggest one of all “the greatest good for the greatest number of dynamics” (as long as Dynamic 3 counts as 8 and the other 7 are one each) — “Scientology is expanding and clearing the planet, so there are some outnesses, they are small in comparison to all the good that is being done.”

7. Finally, I believe the vast majority of Scientologists are optimistic and think to themselves, “tomorrow will be another day and things will be better.” Unreal but true.

Maybe others have thoughts on this, but that is what I have concluded.

Why We Leave by Steve “Thoughtful” Hall

There’s an additional reason for “why we stay” which comes down to intuition or as we would call it in Scientology, “knowingness.” I wanted to leave many times in my Scientology career at the Int base. But for some reason I stayed. Something inside of me urged me to weather the storm. To use it as a laboratory. To learn from the experience — what would happen if I were pushed to the brink of extinction? I found out.

I found out I could survive anything. I found out there is a limit to what torture can do. There is a point where a compressible being cannot be further compressed no matter what is done to him. And better yet, I found out that even in that compressed state, I could fight back. I could make postulates. I could refuse to agree with realities. And finally, I found I could boldly walk right out the front door like Houdini — despite any number of chains, cameras, motion detectors, evil security guards (Danny), vicious Nazi like people, and most troublesome, the chains of love you feel for a spouse and those friends you must leave behind. Despite all these things, I found I could walk out the door and nothing, no power, no one could stop me.

I learned that through torture. I learned it is still possible to be OT despite physical, emotional, mental and spiritual suppression.

But there was an even greater reason behind my knowingness. Something for which I am thankful — very thankful — that I stayed as long as I did, and witnessed what I did. And I saw the violence with my own eyes.

If I hadn’t had seen what I saw, I would have never been able to create Scientology-cult.com, perhaps the first voice in the wilderness resulting from the correct WHY and which thereby opened the door to a handling for Scientology.

Why did Mike stay? Why did Marty stay? Why did I stay? Why did you stay?

Look at what we are doing now. Organizations, like people are born, they live for a time, and die.

The Church of Scientology is not dead. It’s worse than that! It’s below death and has been for some time. We — as a group — have beaten death on the third dynamic and Scientology is rising from the ashes like Phoenix.

What Mike experienced, what Marty experienced, what I experienced, what you experienced — all these experiences are what make this possible. We learned our lessons. We came to our senses because things got bad enough, we regained our collective personal integrity and with that comes everything.

What is Scientology if not the technology to bring the dead back to life? But not just on the first dynamic, but on the third. I wrote about this in an article called, “The Iron Door” on Scientology-cult.com. But it’s a very real thing.

If we had not stayed and suffered through what we did, we would not be able to do what we are doing now.

It was a perfect storm alright. A perfect storm for the rebirth of the greatest spiritual philosophy the world has ever known. Look in the mirror. You are making it happen.

367 responses to “Why We Stay by Mike Rinder

  1. This is my own perspective as well.

    I can only add that after you have spent 20 or so years given that organization and that cause your all, it is very easy to just give up and make all those 20 years worth of work meaningless, or practically so. You want to believe that you can get through this so you can complete all those various projects you are doing for LRH, some of them having been worked on for years, and when you work on something that you know was asked for by LRH you don’t want to abandon it; you won’t to make it right somehow despite the conditions around you.

  2. 9. As a member of RCS, you are heavily conditioned not to look, not to think, not to communicate. So you live in an unreality cocoon. For example, your local org might be struggling, but you are told that scientology is booming everywhere else – and you have no data to contradict the PR.

    10. All of the above work to erode your personal integrity, till there is little to none left.

    Mike, excellent summary!

    – Ron Matlock

  3. MR: I just posted this in response to your original comment under the previous posting:
    Everything you delineate here seems true to me – both for those in the hole, and those not in the hole, but who still have suffered, or in some way, come to realize that all is very unwell in the Miscavige-regime RCS. For me there was quite a lot of pain in walking away, but I walked away because the present and predicted future pain of staying finally outweighed the pain of leaving. For me it was knowing that my body was going to die 15-30 years younger than necessary – and for what? – to undergo constant police-state conditions, abusive treatment, sleep deprivation, physical pain and discomfort, and the ongoing failed purpose of wanting to practice Scientology as LRH intended it, but instead being forced to squirrel constantly as an imposed operating basis from Miscavige and his hench persons. My experience did not rise (or sink) to the level of the hole, but it certainly was bad enough to drive me out the door and away from everything I had lived and worked for and with for many years. Maybe I would have snapped and left faster if I had been “holed”, but who knows? The “hole” actually was a factor in my leaving, even though I had never been in it, because I perceived its existence from many indicators and decided I would never under any circumstances undergo it, and the only way to make sure of that was to leave.
    Or, put another way – dedicated SO members are thoroughly indoctrinated into the viewpoint that leaving the SO is a huge overt, or set of overts. So they stay out of a sense of good. And if the Church and SO was now as it was meant to be and used to be (at least to a greater extent than now) it would be a huge overt to leave. However, the current Miscavige Church has changed the equation and now it has become that the bigger overt or set of overts are associated with staying rather than leaving.

  4. This is a really good write up. Much of it echos studies on this by experts, the ones I’ve read anyhow; incidentally Mike, the current leading expert in cults was himself a victim of the Moonies. Steve Hassan.

    His chosen career is helping others who’ve been victims and educating people in how to spot the danger signs that an organisation is a cult and how to access how cultish a group is – it’s a question of degrees.

    Like me Steve Hassan is a big believer in free thought and while his site does have a list of possible cults he leaves it up to the individual to decide what is and is not a cult.

    The method he suggests for determing this asks the individual to make their own assessments as to how much a group control Behaviour, Information, your thoughts and your emotions. It’s called the BITE model.

    His site includes some information in how a group can control you but it is still for you to make the assessment. Needless to say you can also buy his books. 😉

  5. Perfect. Many thanks, Mike.

    Takes some serious confront, courage and personal integrity to buck those Big Seven, but boy, is it worth it.

  6. Impartial English Girl

    Excellent post – exactly what I’d thought. No-one likes to think that they might be wrong, and it’s often SO easy to say with hindsight “Why did I stick it for so long?”, forgetting what it’s like to be in the middle of whatever situation.

    For example, a lot of people look at accounts of those who died on, say, the RMS Titanic or the World Trade Centre and say to themselves “Well, why didn’t they run the other way?”, “Why didn’t they evacuate sooner?”, “”If I’d been in that situation, I’d have done xyz and survived…” – forgetting that it’s SO easy to judge and decide after the fact, when all evidence is available and we have plenty of time to think about what we might do and the consequences of our actions – but the people there and then had to make rapid, sometimes even split-second, choices in an unsettling and still-developing situation, without impartial (or, indeed, any) information.

    Very wise words from Mr. Rinder – thank you so much for making an entry out of them.

    Love to all – keep smiling,

    IEG xx

  7. martyrathbun09

    Thanks for that valuable perspective IEG.

  8. There’s an additional reason for “why we stay” which comes down to intuition or as we would call it in Scientology, “knowingness.” I wanted to leave many times in my Scientology career at the Int base. But for some reason I stayed. Something inside of me urged me to weather the storm. To use it as a laboratory. To learn from the experience — what would happen if I were pushed to the brink of extinction? I found out.

    I found out I could survive anything. I found out there is a limit to what torture can do. There is a point where a compressible being cannot be further compressed no matter what is done to him. And better yet, I found out that even in that compressed state, I could fight back. I could make postulates. I could refuse to agree with realities. And finally, I found I could boldly walk right out the front door like Houdini — despite any number of chains, cameras, motion detectors, evil security guards (Danny), vicious Nazi like people, and most troublesome, the chains of love you feel for a spouse and those friends you must leave behind. Despite all these things, I found I could walk out the door and nothing, no power, no one could stop me.

    I learned that through torture. I learned it is still possible to be OT despite physical, emotional, mental and spiritual suppression.

    But there was an even greater reason behind my knowingness. Something for which I am thankful — very thankful — that I stayed as long as I did, and witnessed what I did. And I saw the violence with my own eyes.

    If I hadn’t had seen what I saw, I would have never been able to create Scientology-cult.com, perhaps the first voice in the wilderness resulting from the correct WHY and which thereby opened the door to a handling for Scientology.

    Why did Mike stay? Why did Marty stay? Why did I stay? Why did you stay?

    Look at what we are doing now. Organizations, like people are born, they live for a time, and die.

    The Church of Scientology is not dead. It’s worse than that! It’s below death and has been for some time. We — as a group — have beaten death on the third dynamic and Scientology is rising from the ashes like Phoenix.

    What Mike experienced, what Marty experienced, what I experienced, what you experienced — all these experiences are what make this possible. We learned our lessons. We came to our senses because things got bad enough, we regained our collective personal integrity and with that comes everything.

    What is Scientology if not the technology to bring the dead back to life? But not just on the first dynamic, but on the third. I wrote about this in an article called, “The Iron Door” on Scientology-cult.com. But it’s a very real thing.

    If we had not stayed and suffered through what we did, we would not be able to do what we are doing now.

    It was a perfect storm alright. A perfect storm for the rebirth of the greatest spiritual philosophy the world has ever known. Look in the mirror. You are making it happen.

  9. That is it, exactly.

    And maybe this falls under one of the points he’s listed above already, but the purpose you have to help mankind through Scientology (as a staff member or Sea Org member) is very strong. You believe this organization is the one that has the answer and that it must succeed in order to achieve the goals of Scientology, and you don’t want to abandon that purpose no matter what you are going through personally. It is very hard as a dedicated staff member to break away from the group because of that underlying purpose especially after so many years of dedicating yourself to it. Many who leave experience a huge loss on this point, despite the fact that they were being treated like slaves, and that the purpose wasn’t really being achieved. This is a realization that is not easy to arrive at.

  10. Obligations, reputational withholds, Et Al. It’s quite a soup an ethical being finds himself in. Remember in TWTH wherein it’s mentioned how good people are easy to fool?
    On a lighter note I got a gold guilded invitation for the IAS event at the Shrine Auditorium. I guess it’s a hybred between an LRH birthday event and gang banging by hard sell regges.
    Snake-Eyed Charlie

    Ole Snake-Eyed Charlie appeared late at my door
    With a sealed invitation from a group he adored.
    Then my dog started growlin’ and talkin’ some trash
    Mustta picked up the scent, he was after my cash.

    The gala was spooned up as a birthday event.
    So big and so fun that they had to rent tents
    So I let him on in—what else could I do?
    But get the ass wringin’ from Hell that’d never be through

    I tried to explain but to no avail
    He was deadly serious and consumed with his tale
    Of the sins of my fellows, all could ever be dreamt
    That they were all bad guys who were ever so bent

    Of this he was sure, you could see in his eyes
    His fear only matched when that dog got untied.
    Incapable of thought, it weren’t no disquise
    Ole Charlie had met his first real bad guy

    I never saw Charlie except for a thread
    Of his britches that old dog took to his bed
    But I could have told him, he’d have holes in his head
    To be focused on thievin’, not the birthday instead.

  11. Lucid and compelling explanation, Mike. You can always tell the real (ie, Independent) Scientologists on this and other sites…they are the ones who are obviously Awake! 🙂


    John in Austin

  12. People are leaving in droves both publicly and in silence. As more come out and tell there stories so will others, keep it going and STOP supporting the nightmare.

  13. Mike –

    Thanks for posting your analysis. I’m sure you looked at others’ viewpoints too, and you’ve covered most of what I’ve been able to deduce and some I hadn’t considered. My guess is that #3 is most real to paying public. I’m very interested in this line of thought. I’ve been hesitant to ask anyone “What were you thinking?!” for fear of introverting, restimulating charge with a “blanket” question, or evaluating when I myself don’t know the answers.

    Reading over what you wrote another few questions came to mind as obvious:

    1) What was on your mind when you “signed up”, way back when? Just a general free-for-all question covering any number of things – just a general state of mind and viewpoint.

    2) How did things evolve for you, after you joined in? How did your perceptions and conclusions and projections change over the years? (LOL – “Scan through the incident!”) I mean in terms of the juxtapositions of what you originally saw, what you added to that, and against barriers that came up. I believe you’ve already stated the culmination of barriers that tipped things over.

    3) Going back to ealiest, I’m curious as to what your life was like before you ever had contact with Scn? What were your plans or “hoped-fors” then?

    Sorry if I seem like some frustrated auditor or if I’m prying with unwelcome questions. I’ve met some who just came in for auditing and no more, some took a course or two but apparently didn’t see a life as an auditor, some on staff, some staff who just un-persisted at some point usually because promised courses and auditing never materialized and money was too short, and I’ve met some who wanted out and knew it very well but put up with it all just long enough to get the auditor and C/S courses, and some I’m curious about but have no contact with – those who “made it” up the Bridge and just waltzed away into the distance.

    (Re-posted to the new thread. A day off for me, extra weekend. I’m very interested in reading.)


  14. Absolutely brilliant!

    “It is hammered into you that whatever condition you find yourself in — YOU “pulled it in””

  15. martyrathbun09

    Brilliant, Cowboy.

  16. LOL – looking over all the replies and questions on the previous thread and this one I’m hearing Mike think “God, I wish I hadn’t posted that!”

    Another BIG question I have is to those who donate mega-bucks to the Co$. Since I haven’t worked my way through the U.S. Dipomatic Corps I’m afraid I don’t know how to phrase it.

  17. martyrathbun09


  18. martyrathbun09

    Beautiful Steve. I’m posting below Mike’s now article, as Why We Leave by Steve “Thoughtful” Hall.


  20. Hello All! ❤

    Just a few words on this topic, if I may. Respectfully too!

    Thank you all for your hard work recently to help Debbie Cook. You are true warriors! I have always loved that about you guys. You were the stars of the team that I looked up to as to ethics presence, adherence to command intention, and dedication to the cause!

    My thoughts on this subject of why people stay may come across a little harsh, and if that is the case, know that I did mean it to be! Some of these folks still happily sitting in their Truman Show need to wake up!

    Simply said, I feel LRH nailed it in KSW 1 when he said that the executives in orgs where points 1 to 10 had gone out could NOT assimilate straight Scientology. They could not demo simple basic principles. They probably didn't even know how to demo the ARC triangle and the 8 dynamics!

    As wild as it sounds, I believe a similar plague has wiped out the staffs and public still in! I don't care what "Basics" line-up they have done, where the hell is the application? They obviously can't see the forest for the trees. Their TR 0 is madly OUT!!! They can't even confront the damn policy letter!

    The place is out-tech!! And these birds just sing their stupid rah rah songs and yell kum ba ya over the latest million bucks to be stuck in a mysterious building fund up-lines somewhere. They don't even make damn auditors anymore!

    Why aren't those robots raising Hell?

    Those cowards are not OT! Sue me! I said it! They are NOT cause over even writing a damn knowledge report! Let alone saying HELL NO to an order that they need to disconnect from their own son or daughter! What the HELL? These are families!

    I don't mean to ramble, but it is just so tragic that the supposed powerful people – the product of the place – are not doing a damn thing about fixing things! If that is a generality, so be it! It's a big flunk for all those freaks! Flunk!! Go back to TR 0 and get some case gain!


  21. Great post Mike.
    For me points 5 and 6 are key and easily summed up in PAB 13:
    “Probably the truly aberrative personalities in our society do not number more than five or ten percent. They have very special traits. Where you find in the preclear’s bank a person with one or more of these characteristics, you will have the person who most thoroughly tried the preclear’s sanity.
    What we will call the aberrative personality does the following things:
    1. Everything bad that happened to the preclear was (a) ridiculous, (b) unimportant, (c) deserved.
    2. Everything the preclear and others did to the aberrative person was (a) very important, (b) very bad, (c) irremediable.
    3. Those things which the preclear could do (a) were without real value, (b) were done better by the aberrative personality or by others.
    4. Sexual restraint or perversion.
    5. Inhibition of eating.”
    L. Ron Hubbard
    PAB 13 – Nov 1953
    Nuff Said!

  22. It’s a relief to see some honest introspection minus the usual, Hubbard deifying, Miscavige bashing rationalizations. The books and testimonies of traumatized, betrayed Scientologists from Hubbard’s era mirror those from Miscavige’s era.
    I hope you find peace, Mike, and that you can help others to reclaim their lives without relying on mythologies that others use to enrich and aggrandize themselves.

  23. Also Mike for myself it was waiting for Church of Scn to change. It was what I call the ‘Waiting for Godot’ syndrome.

    A couple definitions:
    From Wikipedia: Waiting for Godot is an absurdist play by Samuel Beckett in which two characters, Vladimir and Estragon, wait endlessly and in vain for someone named Godot to arrive. Godot’s absence, as well as numerous other aspects of the play, have led to many different interpretations since the play’s premiere.

    Syndrome: (4). a predictable, characteristic pattern of behavior, action, etc., that tends to occur under certain circumstances: ‘the retirement syndrome of endless golf and bridge games’; ‘the feast-or-famine syndrome of big business’. (Dictionary.com)

    The ‘Waiting for Godot’ syndrome is what I define as someone waiting for something to appear, or some miracle to occur. What someone is waiting for they do not know, they just wait. And wait and wait. And wait and wait. It is a wonderful example of ‘no responsibility.’ Instead of being cause in their world, they are waiting for that someone or something which will handle everything. Apparently some current members in the Church believe DM is that someone. Also some believe SuperPower is that something. And others believe ‘Ideal Orgs’ are that something. And they apparently will wait forever for ‘planetary clearing’ or ‘management to put everything right’ or ‘RTC to correct the tech’ or even for LRH to come back and handle it himself. It is baffling that beings have just abandoned their own responsibility in this creation.

    Tom Price

  24. Brilliant, Mike. A perfect summation.

    INFORMATION CONTROL was another key factor for me, which I didn’t realize until after I left. Having almost no contact with the outside world and no access to the internet, television, etc., my “information” only came from internal briefings/events. Some of these briefings included how certain people who left were begging to come back and what huge failures they were “on the outside”. Total crap.

  25. martyrathbun09

    Good point Amy.

  26. Agreed. And Sea Org Members make a promise. The type of person who makes this type of promise will not easily break his word unless there is no other option.

  27. Excellent analysis Mike. Those 7 pretty well cover it for me too. It’s quite sobering, looking back at what compromising of knowingness and mental gymnastics I had to perform to make it “right” for me to carry on supporting what was obviously a seriously flawed outfit. It is a “perfect storm” of factors indeed. After leaving the Sea Org I went to live in a foreign country where I didn’t yet speak the language, just to get away as much as possible. I knew I was “spent”, emotionally, spiritually and physically and didn’t want to be near anyone I knew. It was a very disorientating time, and STILL it took another 20 years before I was finally and completely able to pull the curtain down and just see things as they were. Praise the Lord (Allah, Buddha or whoever) for the last 2 and half years, starting with the epic Truth Rundown and all that’s followed. As Steve (Thoughtful) says above with his customary eloquence: “A perfect storm for the rebirth of the greatest spiritual philosophy the world has ever known”.

  28. It’s a very good point. Even as a public Scientologist with access to the internet and other media I absolutely KNEW I was crossing the line when I decided to read the Truth Rundown. I recall being briefed by the Snr C/S WUS that it was a criminal activity to read anything that was not ‘source’ information (The word ‘source’ being subtly redefined to mean OSA propaganda). I literally made the decision to push a button on my computer and read the forbidden literature while thinking at the same time ‘fuck it! – here’s goes two more intensives of sec-checking!’ LOL

  29. Perfect analysis, Tommy!

  30. I love it.

    But I just won’t let’em in. “Do not give or receive communication unless you yourself desire it” – life’s a bitch and “I don’t desire to be liked or admired” either.

  31. Another thing you’re told in the church is that any information on the internet not controlled by the church is (deliberately) riddled with upper-level OT data which will utterly destroy or kill you if you read it. It was not only wrong but DANGEROUS to look at anything outside of the official publications. I distinctly remember scanning through websites during my research with half an eye closed so I could filter out anything I wasn’t supposed to see.

  32. Mike,
    Just when you think everything has been said you come out with this totally right on the money analysis of “Why We Stay”. Yes yes yes!

    My extra point is I always attributed the problems injustice and stupidity I sometimes saw to an individual down the orgboard who just needed his SuperPower so he could duplicate LRH Policy. My mantra was eventually Qual will fix it.The turning point for me was when I finally bit the bullet and realized that it HAD to be coming from the very top and that there was really no hope for correction. That Qual had been dismantled.

    LRH said that every organization in history failed because they did not have a Qual and that ours would last because it did. By ummocking Qual that could correct the organization and any piece of it including himself, David Miscavige doomed the Church of Scientology to failure.

  33. Mike, If I was there, I would give you a big hug right now. You have described the dilemma perfectly. At first Scientology is a relief, full of revelations and joy, and somewhere along the line slowly morphs into a trap. I think that your point about the Dynamics is poignant. The 3rd Dynamic develops into being the greatest and primary dynamic with all other dynamics being of much less value. For me, there was a point for me where my personal well-being was so threatened that the dynamics shifted into their proper positions, where it was essential that I take steps to care for myself and my family. I recognized that the “group” had taken on cancer-like attributes, eating away all of the other dynamics. My efforts to live a balanced life were viewed as “counter intention, ” “off-policy,” a “liability,” “mutiny” and even “suppressive” in nature. I, like others here, managed to extricate myself and figure out a way to start a new life, but it wasn’t easy. I had help and resources that I could use. I can see how people who have a complete lack of resources would find that there is no other way than capitulate as a way to survive, especially staff who were recruited as children and know no other life.

  34. Which, of course, is one of the “famous justifications” that LRH listed. I have no clue where the reference is, but perhaps somebody else does and can provide it.

    This is a favorite one these days. An MAA commits an injustice and then tells you that you did something to pull it in. Gag.

  35. There was another factor for me: gradients. If you sleep only one minute less each night, by the end of a year you are sleeping 2 hours a night and are a basket case. For most at Int the changes were very gradual, a minor perk removed here and added duty there. Year by year things just slid into a veritable darkness but it was lumen by lumen so you eyes adjusted. Of course at some point you are forced exterior from lack of sleep and have an inverted moment of clarity and realize that this slide is only going to continue, just as LRH says that the stuck flow never flows weaker, it only flows harder. At that point for me it became relatively easy to just slip out the door one morning. Events after I left proved me right on that one.
    But everyone has to have their own cognition about it. Once they do life takes on new purpose and meaning as in “I am getting the hell out of this lunatic asylum if it’s the last thing I do.”

  36. exactly. The motto is “Listen, don’t look” and by the way we prevent you from looking in a very clever way, it’s for your own good.

  37. Steve Thoughtful

    This totally says it! Bravo!

  38. martyrathbun09

    Great addition Dan.

  39. Excellent post. And Amy’s point on information control is excellent as well. You only ever hear all the “PR” at events and you don’t know what is going on outside, it is a control mechanism for sure. This is my first time commenting here. I am Paul Staffer from Toronto Canada.

  40. Instilling phobias is one method cults use to control access to information and thoughts; they make you afraid to have “bad” thoughts for instance.

  41. Christie,
    Here’s a little more on that. LRH talks about Secondaries (loss) containing the most bypassed charge in the engram chain. Hypnotic commands or implants are laid in during the period of stress created by loss or threat of loss. look at the amount of stress and threat of loss is generated in the SO. At the same time that a continual barrage of “right thoughts” are present.

  42. Excellent point, girlfriend. False flag operations, propaganda are the tools of the despot.

  43. George M. White

    Mike Rinder said:
    c) the biggest one of all “the greatest good for the greatest number of dynamics”

    This is the one I observed the most. If anyone remembers Louis Schwartz,
    a ‘reg’ public contact guy in the SO in the 1980’s, this is what he often said.


  44. you’re my kind of gal Sam!

  45. Impartial English Girl

    That’s true. For SO members signing that contract it is often a carefully thought-out LIFE choice. Not something like “Honey, let’s paint the bedroom walls in Cornflower Blue…”, which can easily be reversed if it doesn’t work out, but a decision with consequences reaching far, FAR beyond the immediately foreseeable and relatively transient future. NO-ONE in their right minds would sign such a contract and make this vow unless they had sensibly considered their core personal beliefs and everything resulting from their choice.

    I suppose Sam’s comment sums up why I am so firmly in the corner of Mr. Rathbun and this blog, despite the fact that I’m not a Scientologist and possibly never will be.

    I have EVERY respect for those who have guided their lives down this path. The fact that Miscavige has taken the core beliefs, faiths, willingness to be generous with their lives both in terms of time AND money of those who signed-up with the very, very best of human intentions and then liberally cr*pped all over these decent folks for his own self-seeking purposes makes me absolutely livid.

    OK. I’m all wound-up now; so off for a fag (aka a cigarette in English – before I’m suspected of anything cheeky 😉 ) and a cup of tea!!

    IEG xxx

  46. A bit of a longer post for the likes of me but the above by Mike and Steve got me thinking about a few things:

    We enter this physical state to learn. It’s a game. Learning includes getting our asses kicked from time to time, as well as kicking other people’s asses ourselves.

    Learning involves being happy, sad, in love, heart-broken, highly responsible, totally irresponsible, ethical, unethical, peaceful, violent, etc.

    Where things become “no fun” is at the point where one gets overwhelmed. Perhaps by an SP, perhaps by total amnesia on the track, perhaps by being dumped against one’s will into a somewhat crazy environment (earth, war, implant stations, ideal org fundraisers, etc), perhaps slipping into another’s valence, and on and on…

    What I believe L. Ron Hubbard was trying to do is simply make the game better. Maybe, with a little more knowingness, we’d play happier, healthier games. Perhaps it’s good to know some vital areas of one’s past track in order to operate better today. Perhaps, if one got back into their own valence, life’s grass would be greener and one could begin to shift their future track toward a much better series of situations and conditions. Perhaps friends would be far more valuable in a much less aberrated game. And perhaps we’d know how to maintain a good balance between know and not-know, thus keeping the game better aligned with happiness (overcoming not-unknowable obstacles toward a known goal).

    So, we got duped by David Miscavige. Well, we first had to agree to be duped so let’s stop beating ourselves up over it. The truth is that the guy is destructively psychotic and must be removed from power, not to mention, brought to proper justice.

    One’s future track will no doubt involve getting duped and duping others, guaranteed. But, keeping it to a minimum, just to spice things up a bit, is what I believe LRH was going for with the creation and advancement of Scientology over all those decades in which he worked so tirelessly.

    I, personally, am quite bored with trying to become an OT Superman. I think that that mock-up would die from the dire monotony of zero randomity. To me, OT simply means that I’m being myself. That I’ve got a bit more control than lack of it. Slight, gentle cause. Relatively sane. Being me. Choosing where to go and what to do between lives as well as in this current one.

    The whole OT Superman-ish hype, as well as the reward-trophy-plaque system for cash donations, created by Miscavige, is disgusting. It’s forceful. It’s judgemental. It’s uptight. It’s introverting. It’s full of elitism. It takes lots of effort and personal suffering. It’s uneasy, paranoid and insecure. It’s about as unfriendly an environment as one can find.

    And it’s exactly what all Independant Scientologists (and all of you currently under the radar but nonetheless certain that something is way the fuck wrong inside the church), are striving to undo.

    Welcome to a better group, right here on this blog.

  47. Beautiful articles Mike & Steve – thanks Marty for putting it together!

    I left (after 23 years) before the hole came about. The Hole was a natural or unnatural progression of very unusual and unexplainable occurrences like Top execs camped out at BV lawn in tents, declared SP Marc Yager at the swamp, OGH detainees, “Source” toasting weekly briefings, the inevitable 5 nutty Hill-10 occurrences every year before events, razing of LRH’s personal historical house with replacement of an over the top Mansion & ad nauseum.

    Due to the job, there were also very numerous personal observations of hazing, more hazing, paranoia, juvenile mis-use of power, hazing of others at mealtimes and delusions of many “SPs” (at the top orgs with the highest qualification screens.)

    All those points as listed by Mike and Steve are completely valid – my biggest losses & something I decided to give up were the basic purposes I joined the SO, the “Eternity” button and the friends (really more like comrades in arms of the many battles & campaigns in the war). One doesn’t really have any other good friends after being in that circle and isolated for a couple of decades.

    Life was tough working with LRH when my stable datum was “change” but he did work for a singular purpose, to move all a bit higher. The main difference is that he really cared for people. The realization that this was no longer the case under David Miscavige’s disdain for all – lifted and freed the bonds and ties to that life.

    But, life is good now with actual freedom!

  48. Dan, thanks. You are absolutely right about this. You build up immunity to the insanity. Remember back in the day when we used to play golf on Sunday mornings during CSP? And go to Big Bear at XMas? Then it was no Big Bear. Then no XMas. And no CSP. The changes and removal of “privileges” begin as “temporary” things while you are in lower conditions. But the lower conditions never end. Soon it becomes a “special privilege” to get 8 hours sleep. Then its a privilege to live in your own berthing space. By the time you get to the Hole it is a “privilege” (that you SPs don’t deserve) to have a bed, be normal SO food, be allowed to communicate with anyone outside the Hole….

  49. agreed.

    And this statement: ” The 3rd Dynamic develops into being the greatest and primary dynamic with all other dynamics being of much less value.”

    And when I look over the current scene, and my past since gott’en in—–I have concluded under the current management, why everybody is working for the CO$ for nothing, or practically nothing (commissions I guess). I mean public org staff are getting little, SO gets nothing really, FSM’s I guess maybe, all the money flows upwards. And public are working or doing their business’s so they can go up the bridge, so in essence they are working for the church 3rd dynamic and to boot they are getting altered tech, and they are paying for it. Ha!

    So I ask myself, if the planet is to get cleared, why does it cost so much? Why aren’t OT 8 & 9 released, what about Super Power? You would think that if one wanted to clear the planet, these things wouldn’t be a barrier or stopped. It’s been 25 years now since OT8 was released.

  50. Why I Left: It wasn’t Scientology. Getting the results of Scientology? Then .. stay.

    Getting something else? Leave, and fast!

    When I realized that I was stuck in a group that wouldn’t allow me to survive on the 2D, 1D, and .. ultimately .. 3D .. I did my doubt and decided that what LRH described as being Standard Results of Scientology was not what I was experiencing. So: leave I did.

  51. Richard — you are so very correct about this. From a much larger view, that is the WHY for the death of the Church of Scientology. Eradication of Qual. Nobody can correct Miscavige. So the RCS is built in his image and continues to take on his death-stalker valence.

  52. Amy — Yeah. POB used to yammer away about that all the time “See, that [whatever it is] PROVES that they really want to come back….” He said that about numerous people, its so laughable to think about it now.

  53. Tom — Yes, I have heard a number of sheeple say “Just wait for the next release from COB, it is going to handle this totally [whatever it is that is the outpoint they are nonconfronted with]” “COB” has become God in the eyes of many of these poor fools. They wait for him to tell them what to do. THey wait for him to tell them what to think. They wait for him to praise them. They are afraid to do or say anything for fear that it may not meet with the great leader’s approval or may be interpreted by someone as not being in alignment with “command intention.”

  54. Perfect assessment!

  55. Ryan — Thanks. Glad you made your way through and lived to tell the tale!

  56. I dub you “Chief” Dan from One Flew Over The Cuckoo’s Nest.

  57. …and did Miscavige tell the prisoners it was a privilege to be in the hole, instead of Lower East Slobovia?

  58. Carcha,

    I will give it my best shot as it’s good to look at these things and try to analyze and understand them.

    1) What was on your mind when you “signed up”, way back when? Just a general free-for-all question covering any number of things – just a general state of mind and viewpoint.

    I wanted to help LRH Clear the Planet. I considered it the most important thing I could do in life.

    2) How did things evolve for you, after you joined in? How did your perceptions and conclusions and projections change over the years? (LOL – “Scan through the incident!”) I mean in terms of the juxtapositions of what you originally saw, what you added to that, and against barriers that came up. I believe you’ve already stated the culmination of barriers that tipped things over.

    Dan Koon made a very insightful comment. You become inured to things when they happen incrementally. And this applies to purposes too. When they are blunted incrementally, its hard to see. WHen you get STOPPED by something that is directly opposing a purpose line you tend to fight back right then and there. Only if you lose do you give up. It’s a lot more insidious when small changes happen over long periods of time. For many years I really felt like I was achieving something. Even for years after LRH died when I felt I was doing something to clean up the mess that had been created with legal suits and disastrous corporate lines etc etc. I guess the real turning point for me was the McPherson case. It was strange. It was difficult to understand how it had happened and why people had acted the way they did — it was not until I left that I discovered that Miscavige was at the center of it. And it explained a LOT to me. After that incident, things went downhill rapidly.

    3) Going back to ealiest, I’m curious as to what your life was like before you ever had contact with Scn? What were your plans or “hoped-fors” then?

    I was raised a Scientologist. Didnt really have any other hopes or aspirations.


  59. Yes. That purpose is a very strong one. And to have to consider that you have “failed” is sometimes more painful than the other things we had to endure.
    The happy ending is in realizing that you did not fail at all…and in fact, just the opposite. All the false data and crap that surrounded us is what was making us fail then and there. Once we step back and see that, you realize that leaving was actually the start of succeeding in achieving that purpose after all, in addition to regaining integrity, love, self respect, honor and compassion for others…for real.

  60. As my wise friend, Michael Laws pointed out, “the greatest good” gets morphed into “the ends justifies the means”.

  61. martyrathbun09

    Irony of ironies – and the ‘authority’ Miscavige used to utterly destroy Qual and Quals internationally – was that LRH advised that RTC serve as “Qual” for the International Scientology structure.

  62. Very well said, Bryan.

  63. Of course. He has moving vans rented several times and pulled up outside the Hole. People were told their personal possessions were being loaded into the moving vans and they would be taken to LA and dumped with their possessions and an SP Declare Order in their hands. This was the “worse than” the Hole. When I was in the UK, he told me someone had already packed up my possessions and that I would never be returning to the Base (of course the real meaning of that is “you will never see your wife and daughter again”).

  64. I would add that there was also a ‘trust’ factor.
    I always thought that management had more knowledge, saw the bigger picture, had access to R advices and intelligence that we, mere mortals, at lower levels didn’t have.
    In spite of the contrary facts, the thought was, “They must know what they’re doing so I’ll go along”.

  65. Mike, perfect examples. Sunday morning golf, people, Sunday morning golf. Mike, Lyman Spurlock, Kurt Wieland and I would go out for 9 holes on Sunday mornings. Nowadays I go out every morning on the course where I live, but it is just to take the dog for a walk. It is easier to deal with her than my incurable slice.

  66. martyrathbun09

    Bryan, how right you are. See this from one of my favorite references to re-orient people to the purpose of the subject:
    The end object of Scientology is not the making into nothing of all of existence or the freeing of the individual of any and all traps everywhere. The goal of Scientology is making the individual capable of living a better life in his own estimation and with his fellows and the playing of a better game.
    – L Ron Hubbard
    29 May 1956, Causation and Knowledge

  67. 🙂 your comment about your slice really made me laugh Dan…. Funny how many fond memories there are amongst the nightmares.

  68. Thank you to Mike and Steve for beautifully written pieces. I read both with tears in my eyes. The comments from Christie, Amy, Sinar, Dan and many others rekindle my faith that there is hope yet for mankind and each of our dynamics. The goals and purposes we share transcend any organization. My appreciation also to Marty (and Mosey) for making this space available for us to audit out a group engram and feel once again the joy of true friendship.

  69. Another good point. This is the “hidden data line” that Miscavige plays like a fine violin. He implies in everything he does that he KNOWS just what LRH wants (like he is speaking to him daily) and that he has seen ALL the LRH despatches, so “Ideal Orgs” result from some special interpretation of direction from LRH. So too the “Basic Books and Lectures.” And sending everyone back to Objectives. And the Golden Age of Blech.

  70. Beautiful Marty.

  71. Within the Scientology organizations of the past I was kind of inclined to view the third & fourth dynamic somewhat as the seventh and eighth. But I knew they were 8 dymanics. Only in recent years I came to appreciate with more experience the fourth and fifth dynamics the animals plants and physical universe. They are all alive and all of use communicate perceive with each other and all existence ! It’s all part of the game of existence, and with some aspects less desirable some aspects more desirable, We can experience the Good in all of us and all things and anything else we want to experience in any way that is desirable to us. I know that We have the Truth and that is what we have that makes Us Up !!!!!!!!
    Existence Advancement Enhancement To All

  72. Dan, very appropriate and insightful, like the frog in boiling water, put a frog in a pan of boiling water and he will hop out. Put him in cold or ambient water, turn up the heat slowly, he will happily cook himself.

    This gradient, with gradient levels of increased control and pressure, and restricted communication and access is also a key component IMHO of what keeps public in though abuse. Helping someone gain the strength to disassociate from oppressive people in life gradiently gets built up to supressive disconnection.

  73. Well explained Steve Hall!
    Your letter comes from a “Thoughtful” perspective and your always sincere heart.
    It does take time to really understand.
    Good to hear from Mike. I look forward to hearing more.

  74. Floating Needle

    Well said sir!

  75. Wow, IEG, I like the way you put this. There is an old saying; “hindsight is 20/20”

    One of the traps I see in the whole subject of Scientology is the arrogance, some built into the tech, but predominantly from the culture. We are the only ones that can help. Scientology is the only tech. We are the elite. We are the only ones that can make it out of the trap. This is repeated over and over again until we blind out the mistakes and errors, and problems, either hiding them or ignoring them or blaming something else for them, rather than being able to learn the valuable lessons they can teach us. Ego is a massive barrier to learning and adapting to the necessary changes in life. In Scientology accidents or mistakes are a sign of PTSness, or stress or suppression. I might mostly agree with LRH on this, but sometimes we just push the envelope of life and fuck up, as a natural learning and personal development and evolution step. But in the Scientology culture today, accidents or illness or mistakes are PTSness which is OUT ETHICS which means if we make it long we are gonna have to pay for it in donations or sec checks or something! It is impossible to share honest real life triumphs and failures in the COS because if you are doing well, you will be reported to the reges as having money, and if you are doing poorly you will be reported as PTS or a DB or whatever.

    Next time I am in the UK, we are going to have to get together for a cup of tea, scones with jamb and clotted cream … you are of course welcome to wear a mask and switch taxis 15 times to protect your identity.

  76. Great exchange with ideas on this. I can add only a sprinkle. I can assure you many Scientologists are not fans of David Miscavige. When I was on staff , he was the number one complaint of public. There are many people who are neither staying or leaving. They are not in or out. They are not on service or on lines and they are not making waves. I have had to do it many. many times in my life so I understand the challenge many people do not want make. It is very, very difficult to walk away from SOMETHING into a NOTHING. It is a challenge to pick up your coat and walk away from a home you have lived in with nothing but the coat on your back. It is a challenge to set out on a street and walk away from a life which included friends, comforts, work, into a brand new space where nothing exists for you. It is a challenge to walk away from a life, just leave it there, and face making a new one. It is not only in Scientology or with this culture. There are people all over the world stuck in discomfort because at least it is SOMETHING and they only see NOTHING as a choice. People think on some level SOMETHING is better than NOTHING no matter what that something is. They forget or remember too well, what it took to create the SOMETHING they have. They feel uncertain they can create again or create something better. This is human plague. If you add to this that the world and people in it are unfriendly as a thought, the burden becomes almost unconfrontable.
    And many people STAY in bad situations for years and years and deny themselves a better life, for the fears of having to create one. “Blowing” is considered taboo in any arena. The biggest crime you can commit, is to vanish! Not show up for school, not show up for work, not come home at night, not “report” to people your known whereabouts to those that know you. Even dying is frowned upon, because then you are really out of control! But it is a thetan’s highest choice to be, or not to be. To stay, or not to stay. And the people that protest your absence are people that depend on you. The Church is entirely dependent on people to make it go. The public and staff. The Int execs are dependent on the streets. Without the streets offering up new people, this whole theater will collapse. It is NOT, the world depending on THEM. They are dependent on the world in every way, every citizen of the world is. Walking away from something into nothing is not a death, it is a birth. And a new life can be created just as easily as the create it takes to remain in one that has become a joyless burden, only easier. We do have to create a new civilization for this Scientology business if we want it to survive. It has to be created and it has always needed to be created. And what has gone wrong has to be out created.
    There is nothing to fear in NOTHING. It is always better to face a NOTHING and leave a SOMETHING that is filled with misery.

  77. …and of course you obliged him and never returned to the base. Now I might ask to Miscavige, “how’d that work out for you, Dave?”

  78. Just want to add because of this blog I feel that I once again have a group. The sun is shining through the curtains and a fresh breeze is coming in through the window. Thanks Marty, Mike and each and every person who posts here.

  79. P.S. I left the Sea Org with $1.90. Carrying a small bag of clothes. The red carpet rolled out for me with every step I took walking away from the building. And it has been rolling out for me ever since. There was no magic I left behind, it traveled with me.

  80. I remember Louis Schwartz from Flag. He was the “high roller” reg, that would go on tour around the country in search of those who could afford Flag.

    He was a smart and likeable guy (behind the large, tough exterior), who I’m sure had outrageous weekly “sales” quotas … and which many public around the world took the brunt of.

    I wouldn’t be surprised if he was moved into the IAS at some point.

  81. So many really good posts here! Marty, Mike, Dan, Steve, others, thank you all.
    This gives me a real perspective on what has evolved in COS since I left in 1982, having spent only 13 years there. The evolution was just beginning back then. Now I have steeled myself to keep my Practice going, and making sure that the tech is applied just as if Ron were standing behind us. If one has ever been in a really bad storm, trees blowing over, roofs coming off, and then when the storm is over the sun comes out and it’s very calm, life returns, things get better. It’s what’s happening, it will persevere, and out of the mess will come many accomplished goals and purposes. Thanks again you all, such great postulates, attitudes, how can we lose?

  82. Dan,
    Your comment made me laugh too (about the slice – I have a healthy one too 🙂 – here’s my offer, if ever we can get you and Mike & myself (and a fourth of your choice) in the same city, I would be honored to treat you both to a round just for pure laughs.
    My attitude to golf has always been pretty simple – what’s not to like about a walk in a nice park. The ball hitting bit I can take or leave…
    Mike, I will post separately about this post – it is really something.


  83. Mike,

    I just realized we were both born into Scientology, and are of a similar age.

    The first time someone asked me why I got into Scientology after I had started thinking for myself and questioning everything, I was probably 36 years old. I was gob smacked. I had never decided to be in Scientology, I was born into it and raised with it as a part of my daily life and culture. Granted, it was the 50s to mid 70s Scientology culture, which was incredibly different to today’s. For example, as a kid if I ran into a wall, or rode my bike into a barbed wire fence or impaled my leg on a sharp piece of metal, or fix my bike … not properly secure the front wheel and do a wheelie, crashing face first into the gravel road, my mother would quietly patch me up without too much drama, and my father would chuckle that it was a good lesson, and that I needed to learn to control my young body better. I don’t know that this was at all bad, and definitely helped me evolve a different perspective on life.

    Mike, you will remember it was not a lot of fun being a Scientology kid in post inquiry Melbourne and Australia. You were probably a little more sheltered from this because your family had money, we were very working class, lower working class, with the expensive Scientology hobby. And it was even better because my parents were German, so I was a NAZI, and I was overweight, and because of our economic situation, I was normally clothed out of the opportunity shop (Aussie good will). 70’s Australia culture was not especially kind or tolerant. My first “girlfriend” a pen pall, dropped me, never wrote back, when I told her my parents were German, making me a “white wog”. Aussie working class kids were not especially kind to a fat Nazi cultist. Once I actually got stoned, still have the scars today.

    My father was an orphan child in world war II Germany, surviving dozens of bombing raids, and post war starvation. He immigrated to Australia for a better life as skilled labor, dealing with the same racism as a German that spoke little English. He got into Scientology because he hoped to help change the world so that he and his family and his children would never again have to go through the same things he did.

    I joined the Sea Org at 15 because I was frightened of the real world and hoped I could help build a better one through working for Scientology. NEVER have had personal ambitions of OT Abilities from bridge progress.

  84. Yes – this is very commonly used as pure justification for completely evil actions or activities. It has been very thoroughly analysed in philosophy classes in the “real” world. i.e. the world outside the Scn bubble…

  85. Tony DePhillips

    Brilliant article.

    I always liked the Code of Honor point: Don’t compromise with your own reality.
    When my reality saw that the “church” had become suppressive then I acted on it. I figured the worse case scenario was that I really WAS and SP and if so I could always make up the damage. But even after making my decisions and doing what I did, I still have no regrets. I am proud of what I and others are doing in this movement. We WILL prevail!!

  86. Yep, that’s the exact reference I had in mind. It’s one of my favorites, too.

    Like most things in DM’s cult, it’s almost all but forgotten…

  87. Superb posts Mike Rinder, Steve Hall.
    Great blogs in response !
    Great choice of topic Marty.
    On the SHSBC tapes one datum resonated with me.
    LRH talks about a thetan’s innate sense of the NEED of BELONGING ~~ the need to belong vs isolation.
    The need to BELONG can be such a scale of need that a person will endure
    spousal abuse, 3rd dynamic abuse Miscavige style, even 4th dynamic abuse, i.e. stay in a country with an unconscionable military/intelligence.
    The need to belong in a group, even an abusive group is for sure at play at INT BASE. Then there is the factor that at INT base, they are in lock down and have no concept of the underground railroad and help once they escape.
    If any Sea Org member has fled the abuse in the Los Angeles/Southern California area and needs a temporary safe space to decompress with all amenities provided, including job found for a new life Email Karendelac@gmail.com.

  88. Tony DePhillips

    Very real to me Nomnom.
    I had the trust thing going too. The Tech terminals knew what was best for me, etc, etc.
    At a certain point while reading the basics I was reading about LRH saying that processing brought you UP the tone scale and I realized “FUCK!! these sec checks are pushing me DOWN the tone scale. When they r-factored me mid OT 7 that I was not Clear I realized that I had been getting out tech for a very long time and I lost confidence in the “tech terminals”. So what Mike and Steve resonate with me. We went through what we went through in order to really get the full cognition and to take responsibility and be able to disagree with the “group think”. Take a win everyone here…WE MADE IT!!! That’s a PASS!!!

  89. Tony DePhillips

    Thanks Bryan and Marty. That was good.

  90. For me it was majorly points 1, 2, 6 & 7.
    Point 5 was a factor too but of less importance.
    While in, I might have mentioned something equivalent to points 3 & 4, but they really don’t fit at all. I could do an after-the-fact analysis and give plausible reasons why they are real reasons, but actually they aren’t.

    Oddly enough, exactly the same points applied to events prior to my divorce.

    I think the reason is that points 1, 2, 6 & 7 go straight to the original postulate for becoming a Scientologist and getting married. It comes down to my intentions and goals. All the other bits and pieces of the other points came later as a result of the original postulate and so are not all that important really.


  91. Mike,

    Thank you very much for your replies. I was surprised when I read your last paragraph there – I did not know or hadn’t assimilated that you were raised a Scientologist. Somehow I missed it or not-is-ed it in all the reading I’ve been doing in the past year. So sorry about that! Amazing. You’re like going to L.A. and meeting someone who’s actually a native Angelino! I was well into my adulthood before I came across Scn, and didn’t really know much about it, so I learned about it reading books, doing a course, getting some auditing, doing some auditing. I’m trying to imagine all you had to lose (or imagined losing) in leaving – that’s a lot of personal integrity on your part! Especially refusing to move away from helping LRH clear the planet. Scn has been a long time coming, and this is a window on a very prosperous future.

    The incremental gradient downhill you and Dan Koon explain sounds eerily reminiscent of The Factors and the dwindling spiral. It also reminds me of the proverbial dead-end job. And of what LRH said about people who retire from work and then begin to die. Somehow you seem more like a man who picked up his purpose, and that of Scn, and walked out the door with them, than a man who decided to retire! Glad you did that. Yours and a lot of other peoples’ gains, the Co$’s loss.


  92. IEG, you said “I’m not a Scientologist and possibly never will be.”

    And you know what? That’s perfectly OK. You are a human being and can think and communicate and that’s all that’s needed. And we’re all friends here 🙂

    I’m off to the kettle myself now for coffee; I’m a Scot, we mostly don’t do that tea stuff 🙂

  93. Yeah, but isn’t it funny how if you wrestle the MAA to the ground and beat him good and solid for the real injustice, the MAA never sits up and says “OK, that’s all fine. I pulled that in, so how can I help you?”

    Funny how it works, hey?

  94. Steve. I feel the same way. I am much stronger and wiser thanks to what I went through in the years I spent in the SO although that really only solidified once I had a second opinion through your and Marty’s website. Everything fell in place once the trueth reached me.
    All those still struggling inside cannot come up easily with the right solution because they do not have access to all the data necessary to do that.

  95. Hidden data line is right! I can think of many, many examples of that.

    Once DM told me that LRH gave Miscavige the exact details as to how to know it’s really LRH when he returns. He said we didn’t have much time to get prepared. I was given additional responsibilities and averaged about 3 hours of sleep for a year after that. I thought I could tolerate any amount of nuttiness in order to push through for LRH to come back and then hopefully the hardships would be over.

  96. I left the church in the mid 80’s. I’ve had scorn for the church as many in society have. I was married to a scientology celeb and saw all the coddling to celebrity saints.
    This blog and website has removed the scorn I have had. This blog and website has resurrected in me that feeling of the goodness of scientology. You guys have done that for me, thank you.

    I believe it is the Independent Scientologist’s that will, little by little heal the PR in society that Scientologist’s are a whacked.

    I don’t consider myself a Scientologist anymore as I have found my path. But I love what I did learn from the old man and have discarded somethings.

    But I tell you this: when the subject of Scientology comes up in my circle of friends, I will tell of a new beginning of tolerance and human respect I see beginning here. And one person at a time is the right direction as far as PR is concerned.

    We may not agree on Cosmology, Theology etc. We can even think each other has wrong knowledge regarding life and spiritual realities, but we can share the values of honoring each others differences, respecting each others differences and maybe even learn from each other.

    As a person who has been out of Scientology and has allowed myself the luxurious opportunities of free learning in any area, I can tell you that many of LRH’s thoughts have been inculcated into the fabric of human potential groups.

    I really wish the outside world can see what is happening here with you all. I hope that you prosper in your practices. And I hope one day you can see that there are many on this path out here in society that will welcome you as we all shoulder this burden of societal spiritual evolution. Scientology is not the last hope of man: decency, respect, dedicated daily sincere spiritual practice, right knowledge, study, Soul realization is the last hope. We are timeless, deathless beings, invincible individualized power. And in our varied approaches to liberation, with respect for one another we can win.
    I wish you guys the best……….thank you:)

  97. I like this thread. Got me thinking and I realized a few things. I would have missed Mike’s comment otherwise – so thanks for posting this, Marty.

  98. and as my ex-wife once said “but the means ARE the end”

    A very perceptive woman is my ex-wife

  99. Jefferson Hawkins

    Mike, great summary. I would say that this is the question that I am most asked by people – why did you stay. The main reason I wrote Counterfeit Dreams was to try to answer that question as fully as I could.
    I would add one thing: At the Base and in the Sea Org you have it constantly drummed into your head that the outside world, the “wog world” is a dangerous and threatening place, full of drugs and violence and crime and insane people, and that YOU WILL FAIL if you go out into it. The old “you’ll be flipping burgers” routine. One of my great surprises after leaving was that the people I met on the “outside” were good, intelligent, caring people by and large – and a lot less insane than those I had seen on the inside.
    For me, when I decided to leave, it wasn’t that I had stopped believing in any of the things you list, above – it was simply that I no longer cared. I got to the point where I just said “I don’t care if I will be damned to eternity, lose my friends, and have to learn to survive in a dangerous world – I don’t care, because IT CAN’T BE ANY WORSE than what I am going through now at the Base.” It was desperation, and a gamble that the world I was going to was no worse than the one I was leaving. It was a joy to find out how wonderful the outside world actually is.

  100. Excellent post Mike! Thank you! It was especially appropriate for me to read today. I had a long time friend of mine just de friend me on FB. The interesting part is this person said it was not what she wanted because she wouldn’t violate her integrity that way. She just didn’t want the trouble from the church”. I told her why I disconnected from the Church. Her action just made me correct in my decision to leave the church. So I hope all you bots reading this get it. One’s integrity doesn’t change in adversity it just gets stronger!
    Thanks again Mike.

  101. Mike – a great write up on a fascinating topic.
    My experience as a public (and staff long ago) was definitely in the category of the frog, immersed in luke warm water, and ever so gradually, over time, the heat het up, and all I could perceive (remember we are run blind – no external input, no internet searches, so no data whatsoever), just personal perception of the crew at FLAG, and how I felt each time I had to return for my 6 mth check.
    Over time, my friends on crew there became greyer and greyer, looking frantic, terrified and ill – all at the same time – fear was the chronic tone of the org when I last visited there.
    At some point it got so bad, as I approached my next visit to FLAG, I would get progressively sicker and sicker – not really sick, so much as pained, knowing what I would have to endure whilst there. Finally, with no actual data, just knowing that I could no longer face the “FLAG Experience”, I mailed in my materials, and have never to this day communicated with them again.
    It took six months before I actually started to get external data and began to understand what had happened to the church. Thanks to you’all here 🙂
    The rest is history, and I have much to be thankful for and am beginning to rebuild my life with hope in sight once again.

  102. martyrathbun09

    I had a similar reasoning process. For me, it was something along the line of: the potential for producing anything along the line I joined to produce has diminished to the point of probably ‘no likelihood.’ Which leads to another aspect of the Int torture – being prevented from producing anything was the most painful aspect of it for me. I lasted four days in literal captivity before I decided to pull a Papillon.

  103. Jeff — Wonderfully perceptive comment. You are right, you do reach a point where in spite of all the dire consequences, “nothing could be worse than this.” I happened to catch V for Vendetta the other night and it graphically demonstrates this exact point when Natalie Portman is put in prison and tortured.

  104. George M. White

    Yes, I see this “ends justifying the means”. The reason I remember Louis Schwartz is because he was made to do the “Upper Doc TR’s” after he failed to ‘reg’ me for a big cycle. Louis, the gentle giant, was at the time over a foot taller than I am. I could never understand why they made him go through all of that.

  105. George M. White

    Was you ex-wife a lawyer?

  106. Yes, very well said, Mike. So true. Actually there is also this factor that has been already said that they are waiting for a miracle. Super Power, or Ideal Org are like the Messiah, the day of Redemption. After they give all there money and maybe have exhausted their body, the gate will open for a flood of innocent customers (without ennemies lines like us who are missing wh on DM). It will be like a flood of good people, the good people of God reaching the promised land. Then “theta” will have won over “entheta” (us bloody bastered). And they will dance, and fundrise with joy on the heart. Recognitions will flow from all officials of the planet. And DM, (who was so tough they know now!) would have been so right! They wouldn’t forsake their right to see that day because they saw some outpoints! The hell with outpoints, it’s entheta! Then they will still have this incredible feeling to be good, and innocent of any self determinism. Thousand of years of religious obediance in restimulation.
    Doesn’t matter if Miscavige was beating Debbie and others, such a great man might have some little flaw. The importance is the result, so theta. Yes, this is the way some of them think… Homo sapiens. They already agreed to Hitler and Stalin, what’s so wrong with Miscavige?

  107. Cowboy, you did it again!!! you are gooooooooooooood!!!

  108. martyrathbun09

    Add strawberry preserves, and we’ll be with you.

  109. George M. White


    In philosphy classes, do they analyze:
    1. “The greatest good”
    2 “the ends justify the means”
    3 The morph from 1 into 2.


  110. “It was a perfect storm alright. A perfect storm for the rebirth of the greatest spiritual philosophy the world has ever known. Look in the mirror. You are making it happen.”

    Interesting, there are great philosophers, the free thinking individuals from which we might draw inspiration. Scientology is the product of L Ron Hubbard’s philosophising. IMHO the merit lies in the man not the product.

    Certainly LRH drew inspiration from other philosophers and other great thinkers and he built on it as he continued what he would call his research.

    A person might use Scientology as inspiration alone or take draw on many other philosophies. But whether the person becomes a great philosopher depends on how they build on it themselves.

    Frankly I think philosophers, even and especially the great ones, can be frightful bores but I just think about things as a past time and otherwise get on with enjoying life, then again who am I to judge? 🙂

  111. To Paul Staffer: Were you at one time D of P for Toronto Fdn? (If you feel free to answer!)

  112. George M. White

    Thanks Margaret,
    Louis and I met many times. I remember that Bill Franks had taken over the Flag Land Base and I always gave Louis the objection that it was not safe to walk around the Flag Land Base while Franks was in charge.
    He called me many times while Franks was Captain. I would
    always say “Is it safe yet?”
    Louis said he wrote a commendation about me because I saved a
    Toronto mission from financial hardship. Actually all I did was buy a few books, but he jumped for joy because he knew I really did not even need them at the time.

  113. +1, beautifully put, Bela.

  114. Firebreathing Frog

    Great articles. Thank you.
    I remember a speech from Steve Jobs telling about connecting the dots: we can only do this looking back.
    here is the link:

  115. I know for me, what Mike said is pretty accurate. As long as I could make nothing of myself, I stayed. When I could no longer do that, I left.

    Also, I know what pain is, and i KNOW that there is a threshold in pain where further damage doesn’t increase the pain. When you are as wet as water, you cannot get any wetter. It is the same with pain, when you reach that threshold, the pain cannot increase, no matter what is done. At that moment you are ‘free’ in a way that you aren’t while the pain is still growing, you know they cannot hurt you any more than they already have. You’ve beaten them by surviviing.

    My personal experiences.

  116. HCO B 8 July 1964, More Justifications.
    Also reprinted in part in the old Volunteers Ministers Handbook as part of the Integrity Checksheet.

  117. Karen,

    So often what you post makes me almost weep with joy – it’s that caring beingness of an auditor that does it. So let me back up your offer with the same of my own:

    SO members in the Joburg area who need the same decompression time can mail me at alan.mckinnon@gmail.com. There’s no pressure, it’s just a regular house with a regular family, a garden, pool and three awesome dogs – a good place to get some perspective back and take a breather.

    Alan McKinnon

  118. Yeah, you know Tony it’s easy to get so focused on pushing the boulder up to the top of the mountain, that we forget to look around when we get there. I frequently compare my postulates to what is happening — one of the skills that I learned from my trials at the Int base. And broadly speaking, I know you realize that one day people will look back on what we did and likely pinpoint 2009 as the year Scientology came back to life, stood up on it’s own two feet and walked away from David Miscavige. He doesn’t own it.

    From HCO PL “OT Orgs”: “There is a law about this—all you have to do to restore life and action is to rekindle the failed purpose. The stops will at once blow.
    “That law (it comes out of OT VIII materials) is so powerful it would practically revive the dead! It applies to orgs. It applies to cities or nations.” — LRH

    Note that law came from the original OT VIII (of which delivery stopped in 1986). However anyone can still do these OT levels today.

  119. If you want to see what can be achieved using manipulation techniques I suggest you Google Derren Brown.

    Derren Brown is a mentalist, a magician with a heavy dose of psychology thrown in. He’s better known in the UK.

    In his own words he uses a mix of trickery, showmanship, psychology and misdirection in his performances. The thing is working out what mix he’s used.

    Some Derren Brown stunts:

    Walks in to a shop in the USA with a wad of blank paper that is the size of dollar bills. Uses psychology to enable him to pay for items with blank notes and leave with goods; did this in several shops including a jewellers. Only a New York hotdog vendor challenged him. (All goods returned)

    Programmed a young man to carry out an assassination of a well known figure in a theater and then forget about it afterwards in a week. The person knew he was taking part in a show but not the nature of it. The person carried out the assassination and forgot it happened as planned. Blanks were used and person was deprogrammed afterwards.

    Programmed 3 people to attempt an armed robbery after a week attending a personal improvement course. The people were fed audio and visual cues and when the circumstances were set up; an armoured van delivering cash they tried to rob it. They were deprogrammed afterwards.

    Hypnotised a man in a photobooth in London. Transported him to India. Put him back in the booth and then woke him up. He was supplied with a ticket home and monitored to ensure he didn’t come to any harm.

    His skills are powerful and dangerous. The US show the Mentalist was inspired by Derren Brown. Derren Brown is also a free thinker.

  120. George,

    No, she’s not a lawyer. She’s a good level-headed business woman who works hard to deliver exchange in abundance to her customers. Basically, your all-round nice person who is decent to others so that they will be decent to her and we can all get along great.

  121. With that one they caught me, too – for a while.

  122. It all came together for me over time. But one of the key points was reading Viktor Frankl’s book, Man’s Search for Meaning. Because there he said, that after a bad experience you can decide you were wrong and your life was wasted. Or you can rewrite the next chapter so the bad experiences have meaning after all. He said most people expect meaning to find them; but that’s not how it works. You have to go out and find meaning yourself. Think it up. Get creative. Every person has the ability to make their own life have meaning. Based on what we are doing now, the lives of Independent Scientologists do have intense meaning.

  123. DM is worser than Lombar Hisst !

    Here is another point of view why someone is staying : I´m about 20 years in Scientology and have attested Clear (and as is usual, one is told a few years later that you are not Clear anymore)
    I, like many others, have experienced many disappointments in the whole time, such as exaggerated reging, big lies on all the events, girls in the SO who are forced to do abortions, the very high and irrational prices for auditing, etc. About 2 years ago I learned that Mike Rinder was out. I was very disappointed because i had great respect for him. So I decided to go to the bottom of this matter and to find out what´s really going on. Then i was warned by an OTVIII I should NOT look to the Internet, otherwise i´ll have some troubles to continue on the bridge. This encouraged my decision to investigate because it´s 1000% sure that LRH would not ask someone NOT to look. With this Debbie Cook case here i see my investigation as completed with the result that DM is a tyrant and currently the Scientology Religion seems to be lost for now. But I still remain in ! Without supporting Out Policy action as it advises by Debbie, just to make a contribution to the group stays together for the post-DM age, which, so i hope, will come soon.
    Sorry for the Google-Translator english.

  124. OM. I dream of becoming a rich man so I can finance a project to research and document all the scientology data that found its way in the current society. Funny how many things one runs into just randomly.

  125. That is exactly right. The magic started the day I left. I was not expecting it. Great comment.

  126. The point is something like OT powers can be achieved, at least in terms of influence over others, (and maybe making clouds move – but we can all do that) but it’s a very specialised field of study and it can bring with it a curse.

    I don’t want to manipulate people being a big believer in self determinism. I have to think about every post and wonder at my motives, am I being manipulative or just trying to inform? I am not Derren Brown BTW 😀

  127. “But, life is good now with actual freedom!” – well said!

  128. Martin Padfield

    Well said Oracle. The challenge of course is helping those who don’t see there is nothing to fear from stepping out of the familiar something they have. It’s a process, the helping, that can bring about great movement on the tone scale!!!

  129. Steve — you are one cool dude.

  130. I also saw V for Vendetta the other night and I wanted to bring it up here because it really illustrates what is going on. V’s purpose for the last phase of his plan was to just create chaos in the system so the bad guys will be overwhelmed and make mistakes and thus lose control. I believe that is the phase RCS in at this point thanks to the work of this and other groups and individuals. The next thing is a collapse of the house of cards.

  131. I do believe that a SANE being wants to HELP.
    When I found Scientology I “knew” it was the tool I could have used to finally help others.
    I was certain because I felt a straight line with LRH and with the sanity of his message and technology.
    I think that with time I let others interpose between me and that very line.
    Why I did that is of course partly a mis judgement, BUT I do not think I am stupid, BUT I do think that in the presence of SUPPRESSION people DO stupid thing, so the suppression helped the line being cut.
    I did not know that the line was cut but that the “Messenger” was duly appointed to forward the line.
    And I thought everything that was done was done ONLY and Exclusively to forward that line.
    Oh yes, things looked very wrong at times …. but …
    So I want to add this factor, and the name of it is BETRAYAL.
    I trusted David Miscavige and the International Management because I thought had been duly appointed and was forwarding the message, I trusted the LIE that OT IX and X could not be delivered because …. and I trusted…. and trusted …
    Till I did not trusted NO MORE.
    And the Truth Rundown explained it all.
    It validated the “knowingness”.
    Now my line with LRH is back.
    Is a great line, is incredible how now is possible to absorb the knowledge WITHOUT ANY ARBITRARY between me and the real message.
    ALL the technology is available, in PURE FORM.
    This is what we gained!

  132. Awesome post, very thought provoking. Mike, your post is so spot on! All of those thoughts do run through your head as you contemplate whether you should stay or go. For me, the number one thing that kept me there was my indebtedness to LRH for having given us the tech. But, I’d gotten to the point where I questioned my ability to keep my sanity staying in a perpetually enturbulating environment. When I finally decided to leave, the thought that weighed most heavily on my mind was that I had let down LRH. I recalled the three valid therapies and decided that I really needed to apply “change of environment” and I put myself on my own private PAB 6 program.

    I never felt that I was giving up my eternity as I knew that when I was ready, I had the justices lines to use to get back in good standing. (I didn’t know that they were corrupted at the time). When I left, I was unaware of anything happening at INT. Had I been aware, I probably would have left with less regret.

    Oddly, the point on friends and connections was not a factor. Although I had many connections and respect for many people, I had very few people I could call friends. We most certainly share a common purpose and for that reason, the ARC was very high but I rarely did things with others. This was very different from the 80’s when I considered most of the people I knew as friends. We did things together when we were off post. The current operating basis of the church is so stat oriented and fundraising oriented that there was never any time to create deeper relationships. We operated in the “can’t go home until the quota is met” and live with the threat of the “too gruesomes” you were told would occur if you didn’t meet them. It wasn’t until I had fully destimulated that I was able to get curious about all the people I used to know.

  133. So true. The Church has become a womb for many people. But it violates the laws of dissemination to remain in the womb.

  134. I have a no regrets policy. I did it, it was a mistake, I take the hit, I learn and I move on.

    If I didn’t have this policy I’d forever be reflecting and cringing at the bad choices I made.

  135. Yeah Jeff, I recognized it was not possible to producing anything beneficial to Scientology at the Int base. Every avenue was blocked by DM. So why stay? Torture I could deal with, honestly. But no production, that crushed all morale.

    As for the propaganda that leaving = self destruction — I was definitely worried about what would happen. DM ran propaganda on the Int base for decades dropping tidbits about what happened to people who had left. “Did you hear (name) is back on pot?” or “Remember (name)? He got a job at Burger King last week.”

  136. If you and the other SO members, staff and volunteers hadn’t done what you did to support LRH when he needed it he couldn’t have done it. It can’t be done by one person alone. He might have made it for himself but he wanted it for all of us.
    Yes, some butthead has messed with our church and that sucks but the tech survives.
    Thank you for your service. You helped. You are helping. I appreciate it!

  137. Though there are many different things I love and admire about Steve, this post probably embodies what I love most; his passion for life, his eternal optimism, his burning desire to help build others and make a better world.

    Steve went through more than his fair share of abuses. But where many of us, myself included, tend to have been mired into the blackness of it, and only sloggingly work to analyze and incorporate the good and positive of our backgrounds into our life and use it, Steve does it intuitively and naturally and with ease. His brilliant creativity instantly draws upon all the good and bad emotion to have a unique and powerful perspective.

    He can take almost any situation that might drive me into a dark spot, and within minutes weave a narrative about it, a story, or a joke that can’t help but make me smile and feel better about it and myself.

    An awesome person and an awesome friend and an awesome human being. He is by nature much of what I work to become.

  138. Very true. Gradients can slip things in below one’s level of perception and awareness. One gets used to things on a gradient.
    The critical point for me was “Finding out where I was”. Not as an orientation to the location of the body, but applied to that group. A realization what was going on around me in this group, what was the situation within that group I had moved into. That was the point that took me a long time. After realizing that, the conditions above that were a piece of cake. Trying to handle it as a condition of doubt didn’t handle anything, as long as I had not confronted where I really had landed.
    Another factor was that I believed a reality (of friends, a common purpose and ARC) and did not want to see something different: I had hit a dispersal, with justifications, explanations replacing sober observation of what was going on.

  139. Steve, great addition! Really….WOW!

    To me, my knowingness kept kicking in over the lack of ARC. I hadn’t realized that I was experiencing the dramatizations of INT travelling way down the org board.

    Boy, am I glad you guys gained all the knowledge and experience you did! Reading the Truth Rundown and Scientology-Cult was so eye opening once you got over the initial shock of what was going on. Right indication, all the way! And, best of all…It completely blew all the charge I had on letting LRH down when I blew staff. I knew that this is where Scientology really was and that this was the group that supported LRH. That’s when I signed the Indie 500 list. It was my public declaration that I supported LRH, not DM. Again, thanks to everyone who has kept Scientology alive!

  140. George M. White

    Captain Bob,
    I don’t know what is in Miscavige’s head in regard to OT8 and OT9.
    However, I can tell you that he altered OT7 and truncated OT8.
    Having completed OT8 in 1988, I can state it as a fact.
    Personally, I think Miscavige is clueless and has a total confusion on the OT levels.
    In the mail today I received another large glossy brochure about
    his state of OT delivery. Whoever is on Miscavige’s bridge is
    going to dead-end.

  141. Oops typo, I meant ” Ones integrity doesn’t weaken in adversity.

  142. Excellent points and comments by all.

    For me, it was having close proximity to David Miscaviage and seeing the beginnings of his insanity. He had always been a bit of an asshole and tough, but I could see when he started going over the line into the point of being cruel.

    Once I could see “Lord of the Flies” treatment begining I knew it was leave or go insane.

    In the past, we always waited for LRH to come back on the line and save the day. He always did in the past. Now that he was gone, there was no coming back. Not for at least 21 years according to the instructions I was told he left behind.

    So when I saw there was no recourse. No choice but to follow what DM was doing if you wanted to stay in Scientology, I decided that it was better in the outside world and I would wait again for LRH to come back to set things straight. I think many who are at the Int base for a long time were waiting for that same thing. The return of LRH.

    After I realized that he may not return, then we on the outside at the time, including people like Chuck Beatty, were hoping that people like Marty and Mike would come to their senses too and leave too. Afterall, there was no one that DM feared more than Marty and Mike against him and look how that is playing out now!

    I am hopeful now that the end is growing near for David Miscavige and these abuses will be gone in the very near future.

  143. Mike Laws, You are so right!!

  144. Cowboy, award winning stuff here.

  145. Defender of Theta

    Good observations. LRH put in place the ultimate “qual of quals” via the seven boards that were to govern Scientology after his death . . . the boards of CSI, RTC, and, at the top, the boards of the Church of Spiritual Technology (which he set up with THREE boards!).

    As nearly as I can determine, THE Situation was/is that:

    “LRH’s intention that ‘there be a change in operating basis, with one-man-rule ending upon his death, and that the governance of Scientology thereafter be conducted by seven boards, and not a sole individual’ was not made known to the public nor to the vast majority of staff.”

    This left the door open to any would-be dictator.

    The Ethics Why would seem to be something like:

    “A disturbed individual, at war with the rest of the dynamics, seeing the power of LRH’s one-man-rule position, did not wish one-man-rule to end upon LRH’s death, so kept LRH intention for the end of one-man-rule secret, so as to be able to usurp that one-man-rule position, to control, dominate, and nullify others, and to destroy Scientology.”

    The Who: David Mischavige

    The test: If it was widely known, then (or wOW that) LRH never intended one-man-rule to continue after his death (see the Articles of Incorporation of CST), and if the seven boards and the associated system of checks and balances were widely known, it is doubtful that the public and staff have tolerated a single individual’s attack on this LRH-specified system of governance, let alone gone along with someone trying to install themselves as Supreme Leader, contrary to express LRH intention.

    I believe this, in part, answers the often asked question,

    “How come the public and staff when along with DM?”




  146. Defender of Theta

    Correction of the paragraph starting “The test”

    The test: If it was widely known, then (or now that)

  147. The operation of “dispersal” is one of the main tools of a suppressive person. Generalities, especially those of suppressive nature = dispersal of attention. Authority, hidden data line, hidden command line can dis-courage to see = dispersal. ARC can lead one to not want to see things that would violate that ARC = dispersal. Any social being rather duplicates and sees something nice, than something evil. (The nice thing being more similar to its own nature is more easily absorbed. A social being has to cross the biggest difference to duplicate/confront something evil. ARC has the hardest time to duplicate a point of non-ARC.) Therefore: the more of an evil quality is being dramatized, the bigger the temptation for a social being to disperse and not see it.
    Also, the closer one is subjected to that evil, the harder it might be to see.

  148. Mike,
    Poor you! I thought I had it bad being the only Jewish kid in a Protestant neighborhood in PA where the kids wouldn’t play with me because I had killed Christ.

  149. As has been said earlier, what David Miscavige describes as, promotes, thinks of and regards as the state of “Operating Thetan” is really a different state altogether. Miscavige, with his “superman” complex is really no different from Adolf Hitler yakking about his super sodiers. What David Miscavige is promoting is really the only state he ever achieved: Operating Meat.

  150. Mike, Steve and Marty, thank you for that article. Thanks for that discussion, to all.

  151. I’ve wondered if perhaps DM gave some hidden data line to Tom Cruise, giving him some “top secret information that LRH wrote that only very special people, like he and Tom, were allowed to see.” Something that would keep Tom loyal to DM no matter what goes on in the church.

  152. Thank you so much Alan.
    Marty and Mike actually have “Safe harbors” for almost every state and continent.
    Mike Laws’ HUGE ranch in Texas is the “celebrity” safe harbor or all safe harbors…
    Unlike RCS
    We take care of our own.

  153. Mine too. Sam is.

  154. I never thought I had left Scientology. I was just waiting for management to correct things that made it impossible for me to be on lines. That was about 16 years ago. I was reminded by Mike of a cognition I had about 13 years ago that I want to share here. I was always bothered by the saying, “greatest good for the greatest number of dynamics”, so I asked myself the question “what are the dynamics?” In a moment of clarity I could see that a person’s dynamics aren’t separated by 3 foot thick concrete walls, but to the contrary are completely intertwined like a big ball of string. They’re held together by agreements. You can’t make a decision that destroys one dynamic without harming the others. When a person makes a decision by using the greatest good for the greatest number, 3 – 8 are always going to win out over 1 and 2. If that same person made the same decision, taking into consideration the best interest of all their dynamics, they might come to different conclusions in some very import parts of their lives.

    Now I’m going to go out on a limb here and make a further observation. I’ve haven’t read or done a study on this, but I think that when individuals are convinced to destroy one of their dynamics that it can breed fanaticism. Under Nazi Germany children were made to betray their parents by reporting on them to the state, communism eliminated religion so that people would instead worship the state and there are lots of other examples. I’m sure there are other factors here, but this seems to play a part in creating fanatics. DM has done an excellent job of creating fanatics and betraying all the good in Scientology.

  155. Cindy Pinsonnault

    Mike – I agree with you about the arrogant attitude that tends to show up in the COS.

    One of the things I’ve noticed in COS is that we are pushed to APPLY TECH AS AN ABSOLUTE, instead of learning to THINK WITH the data. For instance, instead of seeing something as a sign that there may be a degree of PTSness when one has troubles, the person is simply labeled as PTS. That’s it; absolute.

    Here we have a philosophy where nearly everything is assumed to fall somewhere along a scale with no absolutes — and we have application of that philosophy as totally black and white. “Anyone who criticizes the church is suppressive.” “If you don’t donate all your money, you are PTS.” “Scientologists are the only people with integrity; everyone else is a criminal.” It is pervasive in the church. Not only is this labeling people with absolutes, it’s evaluative.

    The tech is meant to help us think more clearly and to guide us to better understanding of ourselves and our behavior, and to help us find solutions.

    It’s NOT meant to hang big black and white labels on every person and every action/inaction. The church loves these labels, these absolutes. They’re profitable. They make it easy to apply group C/Ses, they make it easy to put pressure on for donations, etc., and they involve much less work than actually helping someone. “You don’t have a lot of money, you’re PTS. You’re PTS, you have overts. You have overts, you must have a sec check. Go get in line.” Absolute, no gray, no help.

  156. Amy,
    He’s still pulling that one today. That’s where he comes up with the “threat” “they’ll NEVER come back, the door is CLOSED, they are OUT” and this dipwad thinks this is a threat!!

    Thanks Dave, one thing you’ve done that is positive, barred us forever from your SP Group. So anybody who has gotten their DM Color Flash COPPERROD (not Golden, but Copperrod) Declare order, either the invisible version or the boilerplate, or any version, you have experienced one of the only good things David Miscavige is capable of – putting you permanently out of his sphere of influence.


    ( Oh yeah, I’ve managed, outside your SP group, for the past two decades to get more than one recognized Award as a musician, played with Grammy winners, Carnegie Hall alumni and some of the funkiest guitar players around, gained a Professional Fishing Guide License and plied the finest Atlantic Salmon waters in the world, run several wharves managing one of the major fisheries in North America as an RCMP full background-checked Dockside Monitor, spent two years with the local police force Cadets on Crimewatch and Patrol, and, and, well, let’s wrap it up here, I now own a 1975, 355 small block, Positraction, GMC flareside pickup, that positively SMOKES any thing you can’t drive. So, suck me arse you dwip. WE ARE WINNING AND THAT PISSES YOU OFF, SOUR GRAPE-FACED DOINK!

    We DON’T wanna be in your group, that’s why we AREN’T. DUH!!!!!!

  157. Mike I only have 2 requests…ok 3 —three Requests…..first: be my friend, second: if i buy one of the books you write id like an autographed copy nd third: i want to call you Rindy!!!


  158. Glad I came back on to this page to read more great comments. Thanks Mike. It’s good getting to know you.
    I really admire all the individuals with their viewpoints, stories, opinions, and importantly Marty and Mike’s replies. Many thanks. All of us Are helping to Clear…!

  159. That is quite true. Just goes to show what good people we all are, who stayed to play the game, in or out of the COS.

    Who else but us will clear the planet. And thank goodness, I don’t have to put Ethics in on the planet…I’ll let another do that. I’ll just audit those with personal integrity.

  160. LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!! I wished I was dead when my father went in and tried to sell Dianetics to all my teachers so that they would do a better job educating me and told them as much.

  161. Karen, I think you have mistaken me, no huge ranch, just a dog run and fishing hole!

  162. Cindy Pinsonnault



  164. I’m on a roll here:
    Dave, I’ve managed to actually get better trained outside your SP group, and have also made up through to Solo NOTs with LRH tech, not your squirrelly crap.

    This whole thing you play, that since we’ve gone your SP group has expanded globally to now include 3 billion new Daveoligists every 20 minutes, is dead. You’ve been running it on YOURSELF the whole time.

    Tom Cruise parroting it in that video doesn’t make it true Dave.

    Get it, we are having BETTER LIVES outside your nuthouse. It doesn’t matter that some aren’t millionaires and lots are. That’s not even close to important. What is the fact is this: we can CHOOSE to be, do or have whatever the fuck we want and YOU have NO FUCKING SAY IN IT!!!

    THAT IS PRICELESS DAVE, and the relief of being away from your insanity is worth whatever struggles each or any have to get through. See, we GET THROUGH, and more and more those that have are reaching out those that are working on it. THAT is priceless freedom to help on our own determinism as we can, and as we will.

    The whole bullshit line you run on expansion is your attempt to make us feel bad, to make those still under you feel bad for leaving your SP bullshit and moving on up a little higher, even though we may have gone down lower.

    Fuck you Dave. You’re full of shit. THIS is better than anything you’ve ever done or been or had – we are FREE.

    Rant subsided, for now.

  165. “gone down lower” for a time, as we settle and sort and come back around. (Add to above sentence.)

  166. Journey Continued

    I believe that there is another important reason as to why people stay. People usually join the SO after they have studied, applied and received scientology, usually to an excellent result. They see that what Ron has said works and that they want others to have the gains that they have had.

    But after progressing along the Bridge a bit or joining staff, they cannot help but observe the culture of the organization – its moral code. This of course in its present state does not resemble the kind of group that was envisioned in the writings of LRH. This creates a problem for the individual. Do I do as I have learnt LRH would want me to do – what is truly survival, or do I do what is being enforced upon me – i.e. go into debt to make donations to the IAS, disconnect from family and friends, squirrel tech, hit and not hat ad infinitum. Rather than maintain our own personal integrity, we, to whatever extent, went into agreement with the out ethics situation and justified it however we decided to – greatest good, command intention, I don’t want to risk my future eternity and so on.

    Now the situation is made far worse, as any individual that is receiving any kind of auditing is now faced with the delima. As you know when responsibility is low the meter does not read. (Don’t have the reference so please feel free to chime in with it if you have it readily available). So here is the PC who now is convinced that putting themselves into massive debt is the greatest good for the greatest number – hence not an overt. RCS is also convinced that it is the greatest good for the greatest number. This becomes very solidly agreed and thus becomes real to all parties. So in this particularly case, the mutual out ruds of the organization, the pc and the auditor result in auditing over out ruds – no case gain. Huge overt on the group as well as the PC and auditor. The whole group now has no way of cleaning up this mess and so the group begins to go out of comm and get that much more solid.

    So the public and staff stick around due to their own mutual out ruds with the group.

    I know when I was on staff I was asked to do things on a regular basis that I knew were off policy and downright unethical! I justified it as it was needed because of Hill 10s that needed to handled NOW, because it was command intention, because it was the greatest good, and because if I refused then I would just be using policy to stop. In other words it would be out ethics, counter productive – an overt act.

    Through my own personal justifications for my own overt acts, I was in fact postulating or bring into existence a new moral code to live by in the SO and as a public. As long as I continued to adhere to this new moral code of doing whatever it takes to forward command intention then I would be doing the greatest good for the greatest number of dynamics as it was only through Scientology that the evils and insanities of the world were going to be handled – my whole future and the future of the planet was at stake.

    So rather than confront the truth, deal with the truth, the group will not face the truth because of their own mutual out ruds.

    But one-day, for whatever reason, I stepped back and saw that I was in fact committing huge overts against the group by agreeing to and adopting such an unethical moral code. That no matter how I wanted to justify it, RCS was no longer a true group and had long since abandoned LRH. It now became clear to me that I was just adding to the problem. At which point I finally left for good.

    So I would say that the reason that people stay is because they have mutal outruds, abandoned their own personal integrity, justified this, and adopted a new unethical moral code by with they can “survive” within the group.

    If they did not have mutual out rudes and were able to look around them and see what the group was doing and had become, it would be clear that RCS is not the group they joined and in fact would be very counter survival to stick around and support them at all.

  167. Spot on.

  168. BMO(K)C: 1. Done 2. Sure, though don’t hold your breath as I ain’t planning on writing a book. Marty has the patience and intelligence to do that. I don’t. 3. Mmmmm, been called worse, lots worse.

  169. Jim Logan — look him up in the dictionary under inscouciant….

  170. An example of an absolute I experienced: Had a friend on the BC who went off on ethics lines and then went off ethics lines. Dr Denk was the on-call doctor that night and she had put in a call. When she was finished speaking to him, she asked to speak to me, her friend. I then found out she had cancer and needed help. I wrote this all up to the BC practical sup to help my friend get assists, etc., and after he read my report, he said, “Illegal PC.” Fortunately, saner heads prevailed and my friend eventually got on the correct line for help.

  171. Steve Hall,
    Your addition to the Opening Piece was brilliant. What an honor to have such incredible beings in my life.

  172. Mike and Steve,
    Your posts are spot on! These are the very conclusions I came to plus some! Thanks for articulating these points in a way that totally validates my perception and my involvement here.
    I so appreciate everyone here sharing their perceptions and stories (some heart wrenching). So much truth! You all contribute to my moving up a little higher.
    There are so many magnificent people here!!

  173. Gosh, there’s really something to that Paul. Since a being is not just his own organism, as LRH says when one commits an overt on a dynamic it is an extension of self that is harmed. So to withdraw from totally (die) on any dynamic is a postulate of death for self. By prohibiting especially staff from creating across eight dynamics Miscavige tricked the Church into killing itself. “Q4: Universes are created by the application of self-determinism on eight dynamics.” Independent Scientology is growing based on a new model: we are living across eight dynamics. Could Scientology really grow and expand any other way? Could a free world be created by any other than free people? When things replicate, they tend to replicate in their own image. Very seldom do human parents reproduce a horse (though I know of one ugly baboon named David produced that way). Miscavige’s organization is incapable of producing a single free being. Our goal is to bring Scientology back into alignment with itself. VWD on your observations!

  174. Random Stranger


    👍 1) Less worrying about what to wear.

    👍 2) Someone makes your meals for you.

    👍 3) Free bed.

    👍 4) Don’t have to think on your own.

    👍 5) You may get to glimpse the back of Tom Cruise’s head sometime.

    👍 6) Lots of help from ethics officers.

    👍 7) Flashy dress uniform and cool hat.

    👍 8) At the rate of fifty bucks a week, that billion year contract is worth 2.6 trillion dollars! You could sell derivatives off that and make a mint!

    👍 9) Relatives don’t come stay with you.

    👍 10) Secluded resort-like environment.

    👍 11) 0% unemployment in the Sea Org.

    👍 12) Strong and respected leadership.

    👍 13) You get to see and experience things no one else has the opportunity to.

    👍 14) When the Sea Org takes over the world you can say you helped.

    👍 15) Good way to give up all your stupid hobbies.

    👍 16) You don’t have to worry about who to vote for.

    👍 17) Free hand-to-hand combat experience.

    👍 18) Opportunity to sharpen your survival skills.

    👍 19) That whole eternity thing sounds important.

    👍 20) If L. Ron Hubbard actually does come back, you could be there to watch him kick the shit out of David Miscavige, maybe even melt his head.

    👽 RS

  175. Mike Laws, you are the only one who sees yourself as “a work in progress.” The rest of us see a work of art.

  176. Yo Paul!!! I’m an ol’ Trono man myself. Way back when.

  177. Very perceptive 🙂

  178. Mike, Marty, Steve and All,

    Thank you for another insightful conversation. I have no e-meter at hand, yet I feel like I’m experiencing floating TA. That said, I’d like to chime in with the following:

    Sociopaths, like Pope Small Balls, are inadequate in a couple of adjudicated areas once they’re in front of judge in an appropriate probate, i.e., mental competency, court.

    It boils down to the fact they lack “insight and judgement”.

    Given the evidence, isn’t POB a candidate for a competency hearing?

    And by way of extension, isn’t that why his wife and the primary sworn witness in such a hearing, Shelly, gone missing?

    Further, is this a basis of observable mutual out-ruds among some ‘grave digging’ defenders?

    Sometimes I sense the appropriate authorities should send out some cadaver dogs to sniff around Hemet.

    There’s some real shit going on and it’s butt ugly.

    He, POB, is that insane and that’s my 2 cents.

  179. That is one of my favorite re-orienting references too. I love this stuff.

  180. Compare this to many Christian churches that view all humans as “sinners” and therefore feel it is OK to expect things from believers – particularly the corrupt old Catholic practice of selling “indulgences”, which was one of the factors which led to Martin Luther’s initiation of the Reformation.

    The concept of “indulgences” existed early on, but they were not sold,they were earned by good works.

    “Out ethics” = “sinner”


    I think Miscavige’s Catholic background has influenced some of his practices. It’s like he has adopted and implemented some of the more corrupt and destructive practices of the Church of the Dark Ages in Europe.

  181. Bela, agreed. And thanks to that Cook lady who got me to look into the forbidden zone and as Sam said – fuck it I’m gonna look, and as a result of looking why I found myself as-ising much false data and re-affirming all the out-pointsts I see and saw as indeed those outpoints were indeed outpoints. Oh how suttle it all is. And I will admit I got keyed-in, and I did some MEST work, gardening in the back yard, and I got de-stimed. And I reach and withdraw now into the truth.

    And my point is after having done a good amount of research now into the forbidden zone and comparing data, I find that failed purpose rehabbing. I just imagine while researching this last month, what if you could just audit your neighbor, just help him out without this black cloud hanging over one’s head – do I need permission to do this. So I audit a neighbor, maybe something goes awry, why I imagined what if we had a real Standard Tech organization to fall back on. What a joy. Oh, I imagine these things w/o the threat of the CO$ on top of my head with all those new rules. And I imagine others doing the same, and I imagine why when the real tech gets out there we really could have a civilization without insanity, where the able are free ………… in short order.

    That black cloud is lifting for me.

  182. Sinar,
    You reminded me of a datum in 8-80:
    “A “facsimile” brought into play by a moment of intense activity may afterwards, when the being is again producing only normal energy output, “refuse” to be handled by the lower energy. This facsimile then can trap the energy of a being and turn upon him the pain, emotion, and other things recorded in the facsimile. The facsimile thus can absorb energy and give pain, especially when the being holding it has forgotten it or does not perceive it.

    This is restimulation.

    “By concentrating a live energy flow upon a facsimile directly, the being can erase, disintegrate, or “explode” or “implode” it.

    As heavy facsimiles are the hidden source of human aberration and psychosomatic illness, their erasure or better handling by the being is intensely desirable.”

    The intensity of the game we played called for lots of energy output and the facsimiles we made during those times have remnants of that energy output. Later on, with “normal” life, a “normal” energy level, these pictures can get kind of unruly, and refused to be handled, giving all sorts of troubles, nightmares, fears, this and thats.

    The R level of a person who hasn’t “been there” in times of intensity in all walks of life, isn’t up enough to have a good A and C.

    I’ve left more than one person in a puddle since I left the Int Base, the SO, describing, or living the kind of intensity that I’ve lived. As I’ve moved along, I’ve managed to ease it up a bit, but still, hangin’ with my buds, where I can get up to speed, well there’s nothing like that for the benefits of directing some live energy right at those unruly MIPs. (Mental Image Pictures.)

    See you soon, my friend.


  183. Oops, there should be a better indication of the quoted parts. It’s from the top quotation marks, includes paras 2 and 4 and ends with “desirable”. Sorry about dat.

    Hope this helps with all y’all that have trouble with the pictures, or the R levels of those who ain’t been there, done that. It sure works for me

  184. Well Mike, here’s the kicker. If the god damn tech was really just being applied as it is supposed to be without this hidden agenda of DM turning Scientology into a god damn money ponzi scheme hidden under clearing the planet……..why Scientology would automatically expand thru the generations of parents having scientology kids, and their kids having scientology kids, and so on. And the kids, and kids not being shielded from the wog world but helping into that world,,,,why the philosophy would expand naturally. And sea org members not allowed to have kids, OMG, what a glaring OUTPOINT. In the present state of Scientology, all SO members are just slave labor I’m afraid to say. And I don’t mean to degrade anybody, or suppress their purpose to help.

  185. Amy,
    That was DM trying to interpret what Annie told him. He wasn’t there with LRH. He doesn’t understand his comm cycles with Annie. He didn’t get it. He won’t. He can’t. What a putz.

  186. I read a stat somewhere here or on another site. There are 5000 SO members, but there are 9000 ex-SO members. How’s that for the second dynamic expansion of Scientolgy in the SO. Give me a break, what an outpoint. No kids allowed, we got a job to do.

  187. Mike, you are so right. The feeling though, can be that we are NOT arrogant snobs because we are SO much smarter than that, or else that we ARE superior but very humble about it. Now I’ve got myself laughing…

  188. Thanks for that Sam. I get it.

  189. In my own observation, the longer one stays in an “imprinting” situation, the more “imprinted” he is to accept it and remain. No matter that one says he can weather it, says he is just doing it as a learning experience, etc., the imprints will accumulate and become part of the person’s viewpoint on life, including his postulates regarding the events during this period.

    The sanest thing anyone can do is to walk away the instant they realize their integrity is being eroded. This will evade much of the harm that could have been done to them and shorten the “recovery time” once they do start back up the road.

    I say this from the viewpoint of one who also kept finding reasons to be a good sport about the outpoints I saw, to think that I could always outcreate the debt I was being coerced into accumulating, that there must be a reason for non-optimum programs and behaviors, that someone somewhere else knew better than I.

  190. And not to start some new “hidden data line” with me either. LRH didn’t “go” anywhere. The Axioms, the Factors, the subject itself covers this. All there, in writing and spoken. He didn’t “go”, so “coming back” is a misnomer.

    None of us are actually, really, anywhere. We aren’t MEST. Location is a consideration, and then you are “located”, if you consider it. But, you aren’t, really, you just consider you are.

    Dave isn’t even close to getting this. He’s below even having a viewpoint and is in a “valence”. IT “sees”, not him and that space is the insanity of some stuck time. Youch. That’s gotta hoit.

  191. OMG, you took the words right out of my thoughts. Big blow down, floating TA. I love it.

    Oh, did I forget to say thanks for the 3rd dynamic session, Jim. VVVVGGGGIII’s

  192. That is what I call a roooooooooooll, man. My favorite part: “sour grape-faced doink” lol

  193. thanks Dean.

  194. + 4 bazillion 🙂

  195. I truely get it. Thanks Rinder.

  196. He sure is.

  197. Thanks for posting these articles by Mike and Steve, Marty.

    One thing I thought of while reading this is that the ones who’ve left (in large part) are the ones who managed to remain at cause despite all – and found that their ruin was Corporate Scientology.

    After leaving and upon continuing their journey, the ones who left also continued looking for answers to handle their ruin – oftentimes a new ruin created by Miscavige and Corporate Scn. Then, by enlightening themselves (or being enlightened by another) and discovering the existence of the Indie Scientologist field, they then reach Need of Change in a new unit of time.

    Finally, the ones who left once again take that step and Demand Improvement by availing themselves of Scientology services offered in the Indie field.

    You guys are doing a great job of re-recovering the Ones Who Left.

  198. “There was no magic I left behind, it traveled with me.”

  199. Thanks Karen, I was about to post the analogous situations you mention – a marriage or relationship with a significant other who is abusive, or working at a job under an abusive boss. Even the loyalty and defense of a family member who is criminal. “Blood is thicker than water”, it is said.

    Why do folks stay in abusive relationships?

    This is actually a well-studied area and the psychological dynamics are known. The factors outlined by Mike and Steve apply.

    When I think of these analogous situations, it is not so hard to understand, why people stay.

    I believe LRH also said that to most people, “any game is better than none”. If a person can be convinced it’s the only game in town and he will have nothing if he gives it up, he is more likely to stay even in a bad game.

  200. Excellent point about making nothing of oneself and surviving pain. We got so numb to the threats and violent mouth of Miscavige that he even said he “had” to get so severe to make any impingement. Sick mind.

    I realized during a why finding to locate my supposed “out-ethics situation” that my actual why was that I had been rationalizing insanities. In other words, I would see crazy, psycho, off-policy, criminal actions going on around me and explain them away — it’s the greatest good, he beat him up because of all the pressure on his lines, he must have done something really bad, etc., etc. Once I realized this “why”, I suddenly could see everything in front of me for what it actually WAS. And I didn’t robotically agree with it any more.

    Of course, I was told that it was a WRONG WHY — but I knew and I was then able to think for myself. I started working on plans to leave the Int base, directly following this realization.

  201. I rest my case.

  202. I didn’t have this consideration about “danger” outside. In the late 70s, me and some fellow SO Members recorded a tape of music we’d played in the boiler room at the Fort Harrison. We sent it up to LRH. He answered and ENCOURAGED us to pursue our music. OUTSIDE the Sea Org, as Sea Org Members “at large” so to speak.

    This pissed off quite a few seniors at the time. Still, that’s exactly what we ended up doing. I was on a kind of LOA for 4 years from 82 to 86, having routed out in about 24 hours in LA at that time. I played music all over North America, in nightclubs and other places, working along trying to get good at my art.

    When I came back to the SO in early 86, I came back as someone who’d been getting along both in and out of the regimes of the group. I never had an “us” and “them” view. I’m them, they are me, we’re all trying to get along here on this li’l blue planet. So, I went to In and Out Burger, and loved it, chatting away with whomever, every Saturday night at Int and there wasn’t a damn thing DM ranting about it as “out ethics” ever did to change that.

    I’ve empathy for those who had this consideration, but honestly, I’ve never had it myself. Hey, I think I’ll go for a burger. Suck back a cold beer in the Gundaroo Pub, and chat with some guy in a sweaty hat and those Aussie boots with the elastic sides and black socks in shorts 🙂

  203. Well George, as far as I can piece together on the time line of Scientology and just the fact of “clearing the planet”, you are right in your statement “Whoever is on Miscavige’s bridge is
    going to dead-end.”

    So I ask why is that? And my answer from what I know is that DM does not want anybody going further. Why, because if real OT’s were made, they would be more powerful. Keeping down.

    As LRH says, a real fire ball executive is one who can do any job below him on the org board. Can DM do any job below on the org board? Or does he just bark orders and or else? Can DM go out and body route somebody into an org? Can any executive in a class 5 org do this? If they can and are willing to do this, why I believe it is called bypass and handle the danger…………….

    Thus I want to know. What is DM case level? What is his training level? Can he audit? Can he do a proper ethics handling? Can he do a proper eval? Can he do a proper admin scale?

  204. Right on Marty! That’s the reference.

  205. Great comment, Oracle.
    Great posts and comments. Fantastic.
    A little moment of reflection, like a null point.

    You are right, Oracle, we can out-create the church. It shouldn’t be too hard, because they don’t have the tech – we do. And there’s no duress on us because we experience joy in the creation! That was the beauty I experienced being on staff in the ’70’s, when you were at liberty to create your post. Things got sticky in the ’80’s, and I cut my space, knowingness, the lot, and became a zombie. But it was all in a good cause, I thought.
    Nope, I was wrong. My tone, dynamics, everything went down the pan.

    But hey, it’s only reach and withdraw. We have the Why, we have the Who. We even have the 3rd Party, though you have to sort of get down on one knee to get a close look!

    The church is not so precious that it can’t be unmocked, in part at least, and remodelled, like a clay demo. It can be repaired or remedied.

    Maybe after the end of the Mission network, the church became an ‘only one,’ a stuck flow, a perfect ridge.

    I say, never regret yesterday. We have been through a lot worse than this. There isn’t anyone actively stopping us on this planet. Not really.

    The door is open, folks.

    As a side note, the way miscavige seems to be playing the church game, he could be opening the way for scientologists to walk into an org, bring order, and take over the running of it, since it is an ‘ecclesiastical matter.’

    Ho hum…

  206. So true Karen and thanks.

    “NEED of BELONGING ~~ the need to belong vs isolation.”

    But the kicker is, most on the inside do not know their is choice. Most think there is a monopoly on the tech. So they think they have to belong to the COS.

    If people knew there was a choice between the COS and the independents, why they would choose. They would investigate, they would research. Why we would have free capital market.

  207. Dean Fox,
    Once you’ve been fully exterior, with full perception of you and your real beingness, there really isn’t much question about the things LRH accomplished that far outstrip anything else that’s come along. That’s not to deny the incredible strides of all those whose shoulders we stand on to see farther either. They are us. We are them. They’re “back”. And hopefully will get to enjoy the incredible peace, joy, thrill, and sensations aplenty of being that can be achieved with Scientology.

    The wisdom of the ages, is culminating in the brilliance we’re seeing today and the released genius of the future is bright. I’m sure we’re going to see this released genius in myriad manifestations. Hell, we already are aren’t we with some of the things we witness every day.

    LRH wasn’t just a syncretic philosopher. This Scientology thing is…well, it’s racketing up the time track now in’it. Hold on, the ride gets pretty wild!

    And it’s just begun!!

  208. Very good points and so true I would just like to stress one point of the continuous stream of generated emergencies. There was always a mega flap going on and you did not want to abandon your team in the middle of it but before one flap was finished, the next one was already on so this is how weeks, months, years, flew by without noticing the elephant in the room.

  209. “Life is in you today, and you make your tomorrow.”

  210. Paul,
    You said “DM has done an excellent job of creating fanatics “.

    A couple of days ago I realized, as I saw it manifested in someone, the clear mechanics of “snapping terminals”. This has to do with the PDC’s description (and in all sorts of other places too of course, 8-80, etc.) of the “two terminal” universe and the “base”, that which holds these terminals in proximity, but APART.

    Take a manifestation of this idea, the Goals Problem. Here’s DM with this Goal to scrunch others say, and he brings the heat to you. Well, you are going to oppose this. There are the two terminals, and the base of you holding them apart. One day, with say a generous helping of Overts and the subsequent withholding of that flow, you’re up against this DM thingy and fighting it, and have become it to some degree if you’ve done the Overts he’s tried desperately to get you to commit or falsely accused you introvertingly to THINK you may have or did, and snaaaaaaaaaaaaaap. He’s on your face, you got no space and kabong. You’re it. He’s succeeded in taking another down.

    He’s done it to all sorts of people. Gotten in their face and made them snap terminals with this shit. His shit.

    They are the “bots”. Out of valence and snapped into the Bank. This is what DM wants, since most of them will then collapse in a degraded state. The others, the Jenny Linsons, the harpies and wankers, well, some of them find cooincident Goals with DM and they are his “ilk”.

  211. George, my view is simple on Louis regging you and failed on the BIG reg cycle.

    If you got the gains, and you wanted to continue, and if you didn’t have the money, why it’s simple. The reg asks you to simply start making advanced payments towards your next step.

    If after regging you, why the reg finds out you was not happy with the auditing, why you go to QUAL for a correction.

    But, if you were happy with the auditing, but now have no money to continue, why it is just advanced payments to the next step. Pure logic of plus or minus.

    And George you stated ” I could never understand why they made him go through all of that.” Now why would that be? Some hidden agenda don’t you think? Like got to get this guy so that we can make a stat, or else? Like, we need him to resign to make a stat?

    Whatever. I will tell whatever is. It is scarity. When there is scarity, there is the only one. But when you look at the datum that are what 3 billion people on earth. Why there is no scarity of people. So it all boils down to a stat push from COMMAND INTENTION or else you are thrown into the RPF or re-doing the TR’s or redoing some such BS. And it ain’t the regs fault.

    “It takes at least a certain level of responsibility to show up overt acts on E-Meter.”

  213. very to the point. And I agree.

  214. I am appreciative of the work of Mark/Marty, Mike, and Steve. I have a hunch I would enjoy a beer or whatever with one or all. I thank you Mike and Steve for these latest thoughts. Here are some reflections.

    To Mike’s list I would add the demonization of the wog world. Once in the bubble, that makes leaving the bubble a scary proposition. It’s no different than how starving, impoverished North Koreans are forced in their totalitarian state to fear the horrid outside world. They (North Koreans) are taught that their necro-archy (they have a dead father as a leader) that they are the light of the world.

    To Steve’s comments I would reply that indeed CoS at the highest levels is dead — as defined even by the Tone Scale. Punishing bodies (the Hole, RPF, RPF’s RPF, etc.) is _below_ death on the Tone Scale.

    Re some of the comments above, yes, some of LRH’s good stuff (and there is good stuff) is showing up in wog culture. In some cases, Ron may have borrowed on others’ thoughts. In other cases he innovated. In some cases he may have synthesized disparate trains of thought into concrete approaches. While I feel strongly the baby should not be thrown out with the bath water, I also feel strongly that what works in Scientology can be explored through standard, objective social and scientific research processes, documented, and used. Would that not be for the good of all?

  215. OMG.

    I suppose It’s if it ain’t written, it ain’t true.

  216. Brilliant, Random Stranger!!!
    “That whole eternity thing sounds important.”
    Can’t stop laughing!!!

  217. Thank You.

  218. Do you see the illogic outpoint ?

    If the “evil internet” was deliberately set up with “killing upper level data”, then these would destroy the writers too, right ?

  219. I will add this. Having worked wog jobs. And one wog job, a good job when I look back at it. Why, when a group member, an employee decided to move on, and that group member was a contributing group member, but he found greener pastures. He found a new company to work for that paid him more money, more exchange for the good works that he done in the present PT job. But the present employer could not pay him more and the employee knew it, why the employee decided to change his life. Why that group member saw greatest good for HIS number of dynamics, and he was happy to move on. And us members of the company were happy for him that he found greener pastures. And us members of the group, why we threw a party for him. A going away present. And why the company supported this, be happy and we appreciate your good works for us and all that you have for us. And the company actually funded the the party, the going away of the staff member.

    So, I ask when a staff member leaves Scientology staff why is not this employed?

    LRH states we have no intention on keeping people when they wish to leave. Why the gag contracts? Why the secret on leaving? Why the non-disclosure statements?

  220. Well described Ana. Kind of a mash-up of “If you build it they will come”, and the idea of The Rapture.

    For decades now the IAS reges have been selling the idea that it is better to donate to the IAS, than to use the money for your Bridge. “Donate to the IAS, and we will handle the 4th Dynamic FOR YOU!” The implications were that once that was done, all counter intentions to going up the Bridge would be gone and you could go up the Bridge very easy-peasy – if you still wanted to bother, with the world being so keyed out and all.

    It was all a big seduction into being more and more passive and giving up your money and your own causitiveness. Similar to the “all done for you” online business opportunity scams that are hawked on the Internet, people selling tickets to the “Promised Land”.

    Possibly the people still contributing to the IAS and Ideal Orgs are those who have given up on this life, and are hoping to come back to a better world next time around – having someone else create it for them in exchange for the money they donate.

  221. martyrathbun09

    It’s a hell of a run though; you need it for a dog the size of godzilla.

  222. Careful now, you’re in danger of becoming Anonymous – next you’ll be wearing a V mask outside the nearest org carrying a placard, eating cake (caek), dancing and offering free hugs. ;D

  223. George M. White

    Captain Bob,
    This says it all to me:
    ” Why, because if real OT’s were made, they would be more powerful. Keeping down. ”
    In the end, it is Miscavige’s fear. A real OT would not have found it necessary to harm Debbie Cook. In fact, a real OT would have had compassion for her and would have shared his wisdom with her.


  224. George M. White

    Nice post. Thanks. Enjoyed reading it. You left in the mid 1980’s. I left in 1989. We evolved and ‘decompressed’ in a similar manner, I think.


  225. Hi Amy;

    Once you realize they cannot hurt you any more than they already have, you are free.

  226. This is not to knock scientology per sa rather to make the point that philosophy is very much owned by the individual. It’s the distinction between a mere religion (previously referred to as a fossilised philosophy) and a true philosophy.

    You make a philosophy your own by building on it. A religion you follow. IMHO religions are for sheeple and philosophies are only as good as the individual drawing inspiration from them.

    As to the various effects one can experience I have experienced “the holy ghost” moving through me at an evangelical camp, “being at one with mother Earth” at a new age festival and “transendance” during a mass meditation. Remarkably the experiences for me were both powerful and the same; the blending of self with the cosmos and waves of delight. I can achieve such states on my own but they are so much more powerful in a group.

    I’ve also taken drugs and I have to say that is the only way you will experience turning in to sand and then being blown away or climbing on to a sofa and seeing your empire in the design of the rug; felt rather god like. It’s also likely the only way to experience the truly profound nature of ice skating commentary, the ice was so white, and turning in to a stained glass window and shattering; that last one was kinda freaky but not as bad as when a second seemed to last a century – time dilation is really bizarre and scary but not as bad as when I could no longer comprehend reality and wasn’t sure I even existed. Ever been a star that went super nova and turned in to a galaxy?

    Forgive me but such effects, profound as they are, neither impress or for me rate a given philosophy.

  227. TroubleShooter

    Hi Paul, Welcome out! How are the orgs doing up there? Any idea what the bodies in the shop are?

  228. TroubleShooter

    I saw Louis in LA in ’05. He looked terrible, had lost a bunch of weight, was walking very slowly – it looked to me like cancer had him in it’s grip.

  229. Kevin Bloody Mackey

    Hahaha, I’ve got the huge ranch and safe harbour…… I bet no one saw that coming!

  230. Tom,
    what a great analogy! I heard so much about the new St Hill size/ Ideal Org in SF, and what was going to happen…no moonlighting, NWcorps would come in immediately and the OT’s would be able to get 6 months checks etc. and before the building was even purchased it was the ‘savior’ for the bay area…everyone was waiting for the new building to increase the income, starts etc. The MEST was cause. I knew it was a wrong why from the start but saying that equaled to be a supressive.

  231. Journey Continued

    Thanks for that.

  232. Mike

    You are correct on the mechanics, for sure. I would like to add my perspective –

    As ya’all might have guessed by now, I am a big fan of “The Shawshank”. In so many ways, it communicated to me why I held on to the glass of koolaid….


    and finally….

    “…time and pressure….”

  233. Mike,
    you really hit the nail on the head. I know someone who has been on 7 for 20 years. She was found not to be clear at one point, so she did the clearing course and went back onto 7. Her husband makes an incredible salary as an OT lawyer, yet he can no longer keep up their property and expenses, her auditng, and schooling and auditing for the daughter. Yet, she joined staff and rented a placed just to be closer to the org thinking she would be helped by the NWCorp.when they came to SF Org. That was never delivered. She was made to feel very guilty for being an OT and not helping the org despite the fact that she spent ten years on staff previously. She now has to live on her own and pay her own way to Flag for her checks.Why on earth should she get 6 months checks! She considers her time on 7 to be due to HER case and she thinks, and I quote, “David is a God!” In truth, she has lost her home ( a beautiful estate), is separated from her husband, and worships DM…and still is auditing away! unbelievable.

  234. Journey Continued

    Jim you gotta just love your attitude …. Scientology is the very stuff of life. RCS unfortunately is the very antithesis of life.

    If your ever down the NSW south coast, let me know and I will buy you that burger and beer but I am not going to be wearing a blue singlet and a pair of stubbies – ok?

  235. Louis was a staffer from SFO, and then joined he SO as did his brother Freddie. His son is the Senior MAA at AOLA. Last time I saw Luis was in 2000 and he looked good. He is a great guy and I’m sorry to hear that he is/was sick.

  236. Ha! Yes. Things done to you – stop dramatizing, things done to them – deadly important.

  237. I was WRONG because I gave the church way too much trust.

    I was STUPID not to leave corporate scn much earlier then I did.

    I was duped to believe all of the garbage corp. scn throws at you such as you are saving the world, there is nothing else out there besides scn, WOGS are wrong and bad, blah blah blah.

    The one thing I know am right about 1000% is the fact I’m free from the grips of corp scn and I’m free from the incessant regging and I’m free from the nuttiest people of all the MAA and crazy ethics terminals who constantly make you feel small and wrong.

    anybody else feel the same? or you can elaborate

  238. one of those who see

    Hi Steve,
    Loved your comment. Totally keyed me out!!! “Independent Scientology is growing based on a new model: we are living across eight dynamics. Could Scientology really grow and expand any other way? Could a free world be created by any other than free people? ”

    I just really saw this for the first time – we have Scientology and all of life too!!!!!!!
    And you have nailed the key insanity extant in the Church. NO, A FREE WORLD CANNOT BE MADE BY PEOPLE WHO AREN’T FREE. You can not increase self-determinism by limiting it. You can not increase Communication by cutting it. You can not have the goal of “playing a better game” then enforce that Scientology is the only game people can play.


    What wonderful beings post here. I have no worries about the future.

  239. There is no award that I have not already received. To be able to communicate, to perhaps create an effect upon, with words and concepts, to those will lend an ear is an award in and of itself.
    And it always will be–that’s just the way it is!
    Thanks for bein’ there.

    And don’t forget–Kim and I are coming to Austin and we’ll be lookin for some of that Texas welcome!

  240. That’s it! “…in his own estimation…” is key. And wouldn’t that make a great ad if coupled with kindness and caring in actuality.

  241. TroubleShooter

    Andy, yeah I get it.

  242. John, I think you are seeing that correctly.

    Miscavige and the IAS has worked for decades to turn Scientologists into creatures best described as “donating spectators”. To take them off being Cause and onto being Effect as far as applying Scientology goes.

    GAT and GAK did exactly this. The long runway of The Basics has no real practicals on it. No learning to audit or process others. It’s all theory.

    And the other side of it is, they are expected to OBEY! This is what is done to staff in particular. Of course training/processing is made unreachable for them, because they are doublehatted for their org post and as reges for the endless recurring Events. So when is there time to train, co-audit, or receive any auditing?

    It is a fact that prisoners become afraid of leaving prison and living outside.
    The psychological dynamics of this have been thoroughly studied. Some of them, sometimes commit a crime to get back in jail, to the game which provides security and a game they are familiar with.

    Career soldiers often show similar psychological dynamics.

  243. (Darn if that don’t sound like a relative rollin’ into town!!!!)

  244. one of those who see

    To those of you tentatively reading here. This little conversation between Steve and Mike – does this sound like the communication of SPs????!! The church has gone crazy. Here is the proof.

    Love you guys!

  245. it’s ethics tech admin. but tech has to be first actually, so in fact you are getting in ethics. its tech, ethics, tech, admin.

    ie. I read Dianetics. I went into the org for my free auditing session. then I bought more auditing.

    So I read about the tech and got it. So I read about the tech and got my ethics in, which are reason, survival, and got some auditing, and got some more – all scheduled in my life at the time=admin.

  246. I had a new viewpoint the other day on the dynamics. And it’s funny you mention this above, key word being “across” and Q4:

    ““Q4: Universes are created by the application of self-determinism on eight dynamics.” Independent Scientology is growing based on a new model: we are living across eight dynamics.”

    Here is the viewpoint. the normal view of the dynamics is you as a being in the middle of 8 concentric circles, with first dynamic as the first circle and as one expands in influence or sphere of responsibility, why you go up the dynamics. But, while doing a demo, I placed one demo piece as me, and I placed another 8 demo pieces around the “me” demo piece in a circle, or even a half circle. Sure, go ahead and do it. And now you realize the dynamics are across, you are living across the dynamics.

  247. Tony DePhillips

    Great movie. It’s on my top 10 list. Thanks.

  248. George M.,

    They (Miscavige and the CoSbot handlers) morph this into a control mechanism by spinning the Dynamics as something “out there”. This is the basic lie they use. In actuality, all the Dynamics are within one. In order to do “the greatest good for the greatest number of dynamics”, one must take care of ALL his dynamics as he sees fit to do, because they are HIS Dynamics and in fact he IS all those Dynamics. Talkin’ about a thetan here.They are a somewhat arbitrary division (per LRH) of thetan’s own overall urge to survive. Thus he has to be allowed and encouraged to take care of all of them on a self-determined basis, because they are his and he is them.

    LRH lays this out very well in the lecture once released as part of the Classics series as “Man the Animal and Man the God”.

  249. WD-So disgusting how people are so insanely labeled, The only way to avoid it in the RCS is to cheerfully, while kissing all the right asses, donate everything you have and above and whether you have done anything or not write up alot of O/Ws and admit to being the scum of the earth-howvever you are working very hard to emulate the perfection of dm. Then walk around with a plastered smile.

  250. Whoa! Paul Staffer. I am sending you a huge hug from Chicago my dear friend!!! I am so unbelievably happy to see you posting here. {{{Hugs}}}

    Love, Sindy Fagen

  251. Paul Staffer, world-renowned dictionary-flipping word clearer from the 1980’s. Great to see you here! In case you didn’t know, Sindy and I resigned from the church two years ago. How are you doing these days?

    Dave Fagen

  252. 🙂

    As always, words of wisdom, Jim Logan.

  253. And yes, “Dave isn’t even close to getting this.”

  254. Li'll bit of stuff

    Excellent point Lynne, as are the incisive treatises by
    both Mike and Steve. It is so clear that you have all
    pondered an enormous amount of life experience to
    now be able to share all this with us today, for which
    I believe we all owe you (and many others, suffering
    a similar journey) a massive, collective thank you!

    Focussing on a core aspect central to the RCS and
    it’s adherents; “THE TRAP” is an absolutely essential
    component in it’s continued survival.

    Since we are often told that “the only guarantee of
    freedom ( from a trap / traps) is eternal vigilance!”
    It’s useful to examine how others stay vigilant!

    How interesting to watch, as a fish, dog, bird,deer, mouse or other creature (including a person!) may
    become skittish around the “bait” enticing one to
    fall for the enticement/s of a predator.

    Some instinct / survival 6 th sense alarm, says, to
    these (switched on) individuals: “uh oh! I smell
    danger here, back out now!” (freedom assured!)

    Looking from our liberated viewpoint, the RCS,
    by design, counters vigilance, in that one is
    forbidden, or made wrong, for looking through
    the somewhat invisible”bars”(barriers) of the trap. This is to prevent the realization that
    (a) to venture further, is to become entrapped.
    (b) real freedom (power of choice) is suppressed!

    At the end of the day, Lynne, it seems that the
    truly liberated, are all saddled with the self same
    task LRH had set himself: “All I am trying to teach
    people is how to LOOK!”

  255. Ms. Schick, you put it very well: “The goals and purposes we share transcend any organization.”
    Indeed, that’s what is happening right now.
    Even if it means that people leave the orgs in droves and look outside DMs umbrella for real Scientology. The session is working and more and more people go into the internet and look for answers.
    I know that people on thin blog are the source-point of David Miscaviges desintegration. He can’t hide as we do not need our physical eyes to see him. He wants us to believe that we can’t make it this lifetime (to be free) as the group is out ethics (and he needs some another billions to make it possible to build more “Orgs” so we can finally start to deliver).

    Any trap is just another consideration and that’s what he puts in people -> considerations. The only thing we can get trapped by are considerations.

    So yes. This is a session.
    Any time we look into his cranky universe a small part of it blows.
    And it is because of this session he will finally “put his ethics in on himself”.
    He is hard to run, very mesty, but the process is working well. He is soon trough it. Just a few commands more…

    Here comes the next command: “Look at us, do you know who we are?”

  256. Wow, incredible Amy! I never knew that part of your story.

  257. Oh Geeze, I had to read several times to flatten the buttons. My ribs hurt! You are truly gifted as a humorist. Too funny!

  258. When we left, we had decided that the people that were in the church were flaming A–h—s, they would submit to being regged at all hours of the day and night pay outagous sums of money in spite of the fact that it would be totally off policy for one to torpedo his finances that way. And then if some body was declared or was even rumored to be declared they would be abandoned.even by their best freinds.
    We were so put off we just packed up and left the area, We didn’t even look at the internet for maybe six years, And there we discovered Marty’s site (Or rather, Carol discovered Marty’s site) These were the people we joined Scientollogy to be with not the “see no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil” monkeys that populate the empty halls of the the CO$. I knew that my eternity was safe in spite of leaving. Because these idiots couldn’t be OT.
    Theives cannot be considered to be holy men in my book.
    My your eternity open up before you.

  259. Mike Laws– so true what you write — the perversion of PTS tech.

    Mike Rinder- Even in one short year and 330,000 gone I can attest to all these points. One of the big ones for me was “not being wrong.” My parents were so against Scientology because my mom when I was at Flag (I found out later) would read the internet every night and worry about me.
    I got progressively more defensive and when I finally had enough it was really hard for me to say “You were right. I was wrong. It’s a cult”

    The nice thing is today — every person in my family: siblings, mom, and dad all think there is some good to Scientology. Although they are not Scientologists …they see a clear and big difference between the church and philosophy itself and are just happy I am gone from Clearwater.

    I have done TR’s with my parents, given my dad PL’s from the OEC to read, given my mom and dad assists, gave my uncle Book One auditing, taught my cousin about a locational for her work (she is a teacher), and Study Tech and probably many other things …..

  260. Speaking of this phenomenon, am I correct in my observation that Tom Cruise got into “lawyers” (A Few Good Men, The Firm, etc) around the same time as DM got into race cars (Dianetics car)? “Unnaturally close” was the phrase MRinder used about their relationship. I see a lot of this magnitude of “terminal swapping” in 2d relationships, but started to wonder about this after watching “AFGM” recently…

  261. Thanks for this. I think it would be helpful here to review the definition of self-determinism: “a person’s self-determinism is as good as he can
    create, conserve, alter or destroy energy, matter, space
    and time. Get that: destroy time, alter time, conserve
    time, start time; conserve space, alter space, destroy
    space, create space. That’s self-determinism. And that
    consists also of, of course: destroy energy, create energy,
    alter energy, conserve energy; create matter, conserve
    matter, alter matter, destroy matter. There’s his
    self-determinism…….Now, what’s the broad definition of self-determinism? Now, it’s just that, that I’ve been saying: create, conserve,
    alter or destroy matter, energy, space and time of any
    And that matter, energy, space and time — do not
    even for an instant get it into your heads that the only
    matter, energy, space and time there is, is MEST.” – METHODS OF RESEARCH – SELF-DETERMINISM AND CREATION OF UNIVERSES
    16 Nov 1952

    I think this is a fundamental concept to grasp: The “product officer” flow is very much “imposition of time and space across terminals” (as is auditing”), but the Creation of Space is often neglected, but equally as vital.
    The Auditors code creates the “space” in which auditing can occur. Esto Tech creates the space in which “product officers can demand products”.
    This blog creates the space in which we can discuss philosophy and life:
    philosophy being nothing more than a discussion (interchange) of ideas about life and existence across spans of time.

    DM can not apply this basic concept. His is more “selfish determinism”.

  262. T.O.,

    A verse from Russell Salamon’s epic, “I Would Make Simpler Things”:

    To tell you to sing
    is silly,
    you have never stopped

    To tell you something you
    don’t already know is hard
    for in your giant laughter
    strides open
    and the road you carry
    you lay before you.

    From your laughter
    you sow seas and life
    and as you sow so shall you

  263. Marty, Mike, Steve and all who have contributed to this discussion…..

    WOW!… My wife Bernie and I have been cogniting and blowing charge like crazy here for hours.

    This all started with reading Mike and Steve’s posts, and has morphed into a major data evaluation for us on the question of “WHY” we stay, or “WHY” we leave, and has moved over into a Data Evaluation looking for the “WHY” of the whole Scientology mess we find ourselves in currently… The “Situation”.

    Here is how it all started. I was looking at the data being presented, and cognited that much of what was being expressed were “outpoints” or pluspoints. It struck me that the question “WHY” is the correct question, but we need to pursue the outpoints and get the ANSWER…. the WHY, that leads to a handling.

    And then it hit me…. Oh MY GOD… Let’s take this opportunity to do a real and proper Data Evaluation on this whole thing.

    My wife and I are not trained and “blooded” data evaluators of the quality and training of some of you here. We are busily doing our best to put together our own “Eval” on this in a timely fashion, so we do not miss this window of opportunity.

    But we were also thinking of how valuable it would be if this forum were used to assemble a real, honest-to-God, proper Data Eval.

    Let’s find the real WHYs for these questions, buts lets also put all this theta to use and go for the overall WHY for this whole mess Scientology is currently struggling with.

    I am confident that if any bunch of thetans around can do it, it will be this group here.

    So we are hoping that there is some support for a pooling of all our resources, training, and “reason” represented here on this blog, and nail this sucker, right here and right now.

    In any case, we will get back to you ASAP on what we have come up with.

    Eric and Bernie S

  264. Totally right !
    Only today I read 2 Articles in the newspaper;one about a psychiatric clinic that is going totally new ways in helping people which is totallly contrary to that what cchr promotes about their evilness and another study about emotions with a kind of an e-meter that confirms the works of LRH !
    It’s about time the discoveries of LRH get known, not as a religion or philosophy but as pure facts.
    An engram is a scientific fact not a philosophical construct or a religious belief.
    I’m not worshiping Edison because he invented the light bulb. Sure he is the source of it and this is recognized in Society, but this technology and the use of it belongs to mankind, the same thing with the discoveries of LRH..
    I dreaming about the day Dianetics and Scientology being common knowledge and just part of mankind as any other discoveries and inventions of great man are.
    The first step to achieve that would be to put all his works onto the internet, so anybody could inspect it freely and try it out. As the whole world is googling about any problem they have.
    I google on a daily basis to solve problems I’ve in my profession or life and in 90% of the googling I find the solution.



    It would give to billions of people answers to their problems and the knowledge would spread around like wildfire and the demand for services would be GARGANTUAN.
    Peolpe of all walks of life would use it and reflect about it.

    ” If LRH would be still around, it would be the first thing that he would do”

    By the invention of book printing the reformation came about and knowledge spread around the world, but it took centuries until enough people read enough books to ask for freedoms.
    The same thing is happening with the Internet now. Knowledge spreads around the world and revolution occurs because of people achieving knowledge by reading the Internet and demand that dictators are shot.

    Remember “books make booms !”, probably LRH would say today:

    It doesn’t serve anybody if this whole knowledge is buried in some vaults somewhere ???????

    I’m pleading for we create a FOUNDATION with only that purpose in Mind !

    And I mean it serious !
    What you all my friends think about that proposal ?

  265. I did. You’re not fooling anyone. You are as big hearted as they come. (Bet you didn’t see that coming.)

  266. I like it John. I have had similar thoughts. I understand the security guards, the kidnapping, the beatings, that these things could make you think twice before you act. But quietly accepting the insanity – for years? That is wild.

    Another thing: I was searching for a picture of Marc Yager on the web and I know I have seen some earlier, several. Can’t find any in present time.

  267. Mike, Steve, and Marty, thank you for sharing your personal stories. As a result I personally have a better understanding of how and why you put up with what you experienced up lines. And, Andy, it seems that Shawshank may be a good analogy to what happened with you ex-S.O. guys: You “crawled through a river of shit” to escape the prison, expose the jailer and find freedom for yourself and others. Thank you so much for doing that.


  268. Such respect to all those contributing to this site, I feel i have observed an Evolution to Scientology (Indie style) that justifies it’s existence, the type of self assesment/honesty and compassion tyhat exist in almost every post/comment here.
    A quick look back to posts/comments 2 years ago in relation to today is quite amazing!!!

  269. Here is perhaps another aspect of why we all stayed: Theta has a sort of magnetic power, and aesthetics, as LRH said, is very close to theta. When we all got into Scientology, didn’t we see an aesthetic truth that had an almost magnetic power? I don’t mean *hypnotic* power; I mean the power of a very high purpose that spans the dynamics.

    I think something with that degree of theta power is the only thing that could have gotten me not to look, that could have gotten me to ignore an insanity so glaring that it violated everything Scn was about in the first place.

    I don’t think any of us would have stayed if we had been permitted full and open access to complete data about the group and the activities of its leaders. Would any of you have stayed if you’d known everything you know now? Would you have stayed if you’d known that the entire Bridge was being delivered outside the church, by the best auditors on the planet? Would you have stayed if you’d known the complete and actual stats of the group since David Miscavige usurped it? If you’d known the extent of the torture perpetrated by DM on those who’d contributed all they had to give to further the goals of Scientology?

    I think both of these things – having seen a truth as powerful as the one LRH communicated, and having been persuaded not to look (which one would never have agreed to were it not for that truth) are both necessary to remain in an environment that’s manifesting such insanities.

    I remember when I first realized that the group had become destructive. It was well before Marty started publishing his blog. I’d observed glaring outpoints for many years, and I’d rationalized them for many years. I used all the rationalizations others have mentioned: “We build a world with broken straws,” “the greatest good for the greatest number of dynamics,” “I’ll lose my eternity forever if I leave . . . “ One thing was always clear: I couldn’t look. I couldn’t read the internet, I had to turn my eyes away from “entheta” . . . I remember reading a report I somehow got (maybe in the mail) probably in the late 80’s, outlining major outpoints in the church. I read it and was astonished. Then, like a good little soldier, I think I turned it into the MAA.

    Looking for Scn outside the church was unthinkable, quite literally, no matter how glaring the outpoints, no matter how insane and destructive some of the group’s activities had become. Then one day an OT 8 friend of mine calmly discussed with me everything he’d learned on the internet. By the end of the conversation, I’d confronted and acknowledged the fact that the church was no longer either a vessel for the betterment of mankind nor a vessel for the delivery of Scientology. There was no turning back. (Kind of like, “Once you’re on the road to truth, there’s no turning back . . .”)

    In the year or two after that realization, I struggled with, of all things, my own thoughts. I realized that I actually wanted the church to fail, to be brought down, as it had become a destructive force. AND, because it was actually destroying not only people, but Scientology itself. But it was so ingrained in me, as I’m sure it was in all of you, that this was a SUPPRESSIVE THOUGHT, that I had to, well, suppress it. I couldn’t possibly want the destruction of the COS!

    Of course, it’s much easier to admit you want the COS to fail when you can see a thriving, theta alternative. The Independent Scientology Field is the future of Scn, and it’s all we need to bring about a true renaissance. There are no bad thoughts, and there is nothing one shouldn’t look at. To the contrary, it’s only by looking that any being can evaluate anything sanely and accurately. (Didn’t someone we know say that the analytical mind always makes correct decisions when it has correct data?). And it’s only by *looking* that evil empires such as DM’s regime can be spotted and brought to justice, with a powerful and theta new movement planted in its place.

    Love, Tone41

  270. Really the whole concept of using the end (of the greatest good) being used to effectively throw the baby out with the bath water…
    Nazi Germany as a key example…

  271. Jewel,
    You jogged something for me.
    I was also on OT7 for 17 years (on and off). I remember trying to tell a girl about some things going on on CCHR lines and she said she didn’t want to hear it because it was “entheta”. I told her she was on OT7 and if she couldn’t confront “entheta” how would she ever be OT? Your friend reminds me of this lady.
    My point being, there seems to be some weird false datum that one should keep all entheta off their lines. Entheta seems to translate to anything that isn’t, everything is beautiful, la la la la (la la-land). If you do listen to entheta it usually comes up on your sec-check which means more time which equals more $$$$$ and lost wages and handlings in ethics and qual. Depending on your involvement or not, you could get more sec check questions or tailor made sec checks. If you get involed trying to help people and you get in over your head, you can get routed off the level and labeled PTS (this happened to me). So, after a while of experiencing or just watching these things, it seems people learn to just move along, nose to the grindstone, with blinders, ear plugs and rose colored glasses on.

  272. Jeff- isn’t that the biggest outpoint ever?

    1. “You’ll be flipping burgers”

    2. “You are one of the most able beings in the history of the whole track”

  273. I second this and add that it seems a lot of people here are also having some great realisations. As someone else said it’s like they’ve got to the starting gate and are ready to go. They are ready to find out who they are and define their place in the world.

  274. My theory: For many years the benefits outweighed the BS. At some point the BS outweighed the benefits. Game over.

  275. Captain Bob,

    I believe there are closer to 20,000 ex SO members, and closer to 6,000 current SO members.

  276. Kevin — You win the MOFW (Men of Few Words) award for summing up this whole subject in 2 sentences!

  277. Humpf! Promises promises! 😀

  278. Brian — Maybe not EVER…. But it sure is up there!

  279. “It was a perfect storm alright. A perfect storm for the rebirth of the greatest spiritual philosophy the world has ever known. Look in the mirror. You are making it happen.”
    Ahhhh Steve – living poetry. Thank you! xxxxxxxx

  280. Could it have an element like some drugs, the initial highs are awesome but after a while the highs are less impressive and the hangovers worse but instead of giving it up you slog on in the hope of getting those initial highs again?

  281. You make me proud to be English.
    xxx ❤

  282. Brian — Love it. Funny how when the enforce comes off people are so much more willing to accept what they can have. The asserted “we are right, we have the only answers, and if you don’t see it too it is because you are pond-scum” just doesnt attract a whole lot of people…. I think one of the greatest issues ever is “Special Zone Plan” — Scientologists are meant to be out in the world being effective in life. It’s the best dissemination plan there is.

  283. This is the big question that people on the outside ask – and the big reason why police and governments don’t intervene is the assumption that adults have free choice to leave or stay.

    I found Jeff Hawkins’ “Counterfeit Dreams” most helpful to me as I tried to put myself in the shoes of someone in the Sea Org so I could answer my boss and my colleagues who would say, after I told them yet another horror story, “But they’re adults! Why should we do anything? Can’t they just leave?”

    Here’s what I put together as an outsider trying to understand.


    21st Century American Slaves

    Some of the barriers are physical:

    The security guards watch you all the time.
    There are cameras everywhere.
    You have been existing on 2-5 hours sleep forever it seems. You can’t think straight.
    Your work is always urgent. You never get time to think. To plan.
    Your diet is poor and low in protein.
    You are never alone. You are always working in a group, you travel in a bus together to the berthing, you sleep in a dorm room.
    There are fences around the property now. Some of them have razor blades and motion sensors.
    There’s a muster 3 times a day when all staff are counted and accounted for. They’ll know you’re gone within hours.
    Your mail is read – incoming and outgoing – and censored.
    Your phone calls are monitored for “security”.
    You’ve seen the “blow drill” burst into action when someone goes missing. You’ve seen so many people be brought back. You’re afraid they’ll catch you.
    You know what happens to people they recover. They get sent into the Rehabilitation Project Force for a few years. Some of them just seem to disappear.
    You must not get caught. You’ve only got one chance.

    Some of the barriers are inside your head:

    You believe that only criminals leave the Sea Org. It’s hard to face the “reality” that you’re a criminal and a “degraded being”.
    You will be declared a suppressive person. Your eternity will be damned. You will be without hope.
    Everyone you know and love will think you are a criminal, a degraded being and a suppressive person.
    Humanity is depending upon you to save the planet.
    The work the Sea Org is doing is urgent and critical to the survival of people.
    You will be letting down the group.
    The outside world is full of criminals and druggies, evil psychiatrists and suppressive people. It’s a dangerous place. You’re scared.
    You are so degraded that in the outside world, you’ll be living on the streets or, at best, flipping burgers.
    You can’t afford to even think about leaving. It will show up when they do a sec check on the e-meter. You won’t be able to hide it. Once they know, they’ll send you to ethics and you’ll end up in the Rehabilitation Project Force until they know for certain you no longer want to leave. Hard labour, a diet of leftovers from everyone else’s meals, the interrogations, the confessions, can’t walk anywhere, must run, can’t talk to anyone who hasn’t addressed you first, must answer briefly. Must wear black to signify your degraded status.

    Some of the barriers are social:

    Your family and friends and everyone you know will be ordered to disconnect from you, and you know they will. You will lose them forever.
    Your every move has been directed for you since you joined the Sea Org. You’ve forgotten how to live on the outside. You don’t know any other life.
    You have little or no money and few possessions.
    You’ve never had a credit card or a personal loan. You have no credit history.
    You probably can’t drive and don’t have a licence.
    You have lost contact with everyone you once knew on the outside.
    The church has your passport in a safe.
    You’ve never had to find a job or a place to sleep.
    Your only education since you were a child has been reading L. Ron Hubbard.
    You can’t trust the police.
    No one will believe you.

  284. Amy — “he even said he “had” to get so severe to make any impingement” is exactly what Dan was talking about with his boiling frog.

    I heard this so many times from Miscavige “nothing impinges on you, so how about THIS….” and WHAM. You do become inured to the insanity and that is then used to prove what an SP you are and how you are “making him wrong” because you didnt grovel at his feet and kiss his pinkie toe for being blessed with honor of being able to stand in front of him and be abused.

    It really is insanity…. So glad you and Mat made it out and are well and happy human beings!

  285. LOL! I felt bad raking my daughter’s teacher over the coals for refusing to allow her to use a dictionary in school but now I don’t feel so bad. My daughter was embarrassed by my behavior but had I done what your father did she would have disowned me! 🙂

  286. You’re all my kind of people. I love you so much sometimes I could just explode!
    As for why we stay… If I could go back and do it all again I wouldn’t change a damned thing – all part of the journey home. 😀 ❤

  287. ROTFLMAO – Jim on a roll. Priceless!
    Do it again Jim! Pleeeeeeeeez 🙂

  288. For me all the seven points were the reasons why I stayed. And certainly I learned my lesson about violating my integrity.

    Being on the Ship (I was there from the beginning in 1986 till 1999, working in the Hotel Division), was for me like living parallel in two different universes at the same time. One of them good with the LRH tech, the wins and the theta, people from all parts of the world working together for a worthwhile goal, the friends and camaraderie and the passengers. The other one bad, in the effort band, frantic, with force, screaming at staff, sleep deprivation, entheta, threats and fear. The second part getting worse over the years and when “COB” was on board the negative intensified.

    I think one of the biggest problems were the suppressed communications; at least I experienced it that way.
    We couldn´t really communicate with each other about disagreements and about how things were running and what we thought about it and how we really felt – it was just not safe.

    How come so many of us found out only later that we were experiencing and thinking the same. So how could I be in a such a group who was talking frequently about ARC and at the same time you could feel alone with your thoughts. This whole thing about isolating and silencing is very suppressive.
    For me the whole scenario was like in Orwell´s “1984” at the end. You had not only to protect yourself but also your colleagues and friends with whom you shared thoughts, for me a big suppression on the 7. Dynamic under the guise of “the greatest good for the greatest number of dynamics” (sometimes I thought “yeah, the greatest good for the 3. Dynamic only”). And then the labeling when thinking in a different way of being: “entheta, out- ethics, suppressive, having evil purpose” etc. Who wants to be such a bad person? I am still wondering how I managed to bury thoughts so deep down out of sight. I had to fight mentally with the things I saw that didn´t make sense and the dichotomies and disagreements to a point where I had to fight myself to suppress my own thoughts to a point, where today I ask myself how I manged to do this stunt. Having been caught in the trauma I still see myself today as having been partly a person very strange to myself – out of valence indeed! When I left I felt freed but at the same time never so alone in my life, somehow a shadow of my former self.
    It was like if you had a bad accident, still being caught in the trauma and puzzling about what really had happened. I got out of it with the help from the persons who were taking enormous responsibility to tackle the 3. Dynamic engram (and I see it somehow also as an engram on the 7D – I don´t know how to explain it really), who were not only standing up and speaking out but taking all the care to help their comrade-in-arms with there wisdom, knowledge, competence and experience. And here the “lesson learned” was of enormous value to apply ARC and KRC to help the ones who had managed somehow to break free from the trap.

    But one point for me is clear: If we could have really communicated openly about our thoughts, opinions and feelings, I would have left much earlier! Or the whole scene would not have evolved in such a bad way and not ended in a such a devastating similarity of Orwell´s “1984”, what even LRH mentioned what could happen. The whole scene of
    disconnection has nothing to do with LRH´s policy, as we all know. It is a very suppressive method to hinder us to communicate with one another.
    And here we are communicating freely.


  289. Yeah, I did, but glad you came up.

    Not ashamed to admit Kev has a bit more land than me …. 6,000 acres to the 9 my house sits on. Not ashamed to admit he has a lot more live stock, cattle and sheep, probably several thou head a year compared to my one … Max the dog, who doesn’t eat much grass and barks at people that take his spot on the sofa.

    The area we are hyper competitive on and and I will give him my respect as a worthy competitor, but will not succeed to his superiority on is being cheap bastards. Kev and I will talk once a week or so and compare the deals we did. Kev calls excited and says he just got himself a new ute (pickup truck) for the farm, I’ll ask what he paid, to which he proudly responds $800. I’ll ask if it has doors, and hell tell me it has most of the body panels and they are pretty straight but the engine and tranny are strong. I’ll tell him I just turned 400,000 kilometers on my 6 cylinder ford SUV and the leather seats are all ripped up because my dog rides with me everywhere. He’ll brag about his working dogs, and I’ll send him a picture of my dog walking around the bank presidents office, softening everyone up to give me better rates on my loans. He will give his admiration when I tell him I just traded a quarter of a million gallons of tankage for several hundred cans of bud light, and then turned it into a microbiological treatment system for 10 cents on the dollar building a new one. He knows I am the better cheap bastard, but won’t admit it.

    To those that don’t know, Kev is one of the leading human rights activists against the COS in Australia. He and his wife spent 10 years on OT VII before they left the COS. Kev was the driving force behind “Operation RPF” in Australia, where a bunch of big name exes got a list of all people on the RPF at the time, bringing them Christmas presents, and when the COS called the cops on him for demanding to visit the RPFers with his entourage, he got the Cops to do welfare checks on all the RPFers, several escaped int he following weeks realizing there was help out side.

    He has called OSA ANZO terminals warning them that they could be arrested for some of the human rights abuses, offering them safe harbor on his farm, and to help them get immunity from the government if they tell all. The man is fearless. He has offered refuge to recovering exes on his farm, a spectacular place to decompress.

    Kev is a good Mate.

  290. Brian, Love ya man!

  291. “DM does not want anybody going further. Why, because if real OT’s were made, they would be more powerful.”
    Real OTs ARE made regardless of any attempts DM has made to stop them.
    DM couldn’t stop that any more than he could stop a tsunami rolling towards him. He barely has enough power to run away fast enough.
    We’re right here and we out-number the paltry dramatizing SP at least in the thousands.
    No. Miscavige hasn’t succeeded in stopping anything. The parasite who has been freeloading on our theta has merely put the wheels in motion towards his own demise.
    Poor little thing is terrified of losing us. He absolutely knows he has no life force of his own – why else does he keep trying to delude himself and everyone around him that we need him? Anyone who has made it even close to OT knows that our power comes from within.
    Sorry Dave. I don’t even need you for OT VIII – I have my truth.

  292. My Dear Lady!

    That is awesome and well compiled!

  293. Wow, Mike. And yet you’re still able to see the good in people and to give of yourself to help others fulfil their promise. You’re precious.

  294. Wow—talk about a little poetry!

  295. Brian,


    Apply what you know, lead by example and the rest will fall into place as others will be able to experience and have it for themselves.

    You ARE right!!!

    “…time and pressure…”

  296. The Code of Honor has got to be one of my favorites. I knew I saw what I saw, and I did not want to compromise with my reality. As well, I wanted to be true to my own goals. I had struggled with the idea of “withdrawing allegiance”…but then I saw that I had not withdrawn allegiance to that which I pledged my allegiance to. The “Church” has turned into practicing something I had NOT pledged anything to…my allegiance to the goals of Scientology and this technology are still in place. As well, I saw I was not deserting my comrades in need. By ceasing to support the overts that are being committed on the tech/policy, I was actually doing more for them than they could SEE at this time. So, despite the comments they may make make to or about me, I know that my personal integrity is in place, for myself and with regards to them.

  297. Reading this thread has been a bit like experiencing the personal gain I’ve had from reading LRH, or receiving good auditing. Not only has my own reality been validated over and over, but I’ve gained insight and greater understanding from duplicating the viewpoints of others, who’ve experienced things that I have not.

    There is so much truth (= as-isness) on this thread, that it makes me want to boil it all down into a single, powerful summary. I sense that I’m not alone in that thought. The true story of “Why we stay – Why we leave” is one that must be told, if the 3rd dynamic of Scientology is ever to be healed.

    In that spirit, here’s an equation that’s been rolling around my mind for the last couple of days. It sort of sums up my personal state of being, as regards my church, over the last quarter century:

    Must reach – Can’t reach
    Must withdraw – Can’t withdraw

  298. George M. White

    Thanks for the reference. I have hundreds of tapes in storage. I plan to go through them.
    I have learned a lot about Miscavige on this blog. I like this explanation about his control mechanism which claims that the dynamics are “out there”. Miscavige thus can control all of those in fear in his close environment. Having his mountain of cash protects him from reality.

  299. I knew about the ranch, but I’m guessing the harbour is due to you being flooded out AGAIN!

    (Bet you didn't see that coming.)

  300. +1
    Thank you so much, Mike and Steve. Your posts are so very important and so very touching.

  301. You are right LO. It shows too just how off purpose the Church is.

  302. +1

  303. You got it and that’s why on the mandatory reading list of every Indie Scientologist, in addition to Viktor Frankl’s Man’s Search for Meaning (which he wrote in 1946 after surviving 4 Nazi death camps) should also be the great Frederick Douglass’ masterwork, Narrative of the Life of an American Slave.”

  304. Moving Forward

    Steve, when I found out that this line was being run at Int it made sense of an incident that happened a few years ago. I knew a young woman who had been at Gold for over a decade and, despite being a highly intelligent and capable person, her first job after leaving was at a burger joint. It made absolutely no sense to me. I encouraged her to pursue better jobs that she was most certainly qualified for, but was surprised at how low she viewed herself and her capabilities.

    By the way, you absolutely do have a resume upon leaving the SO; it may need to be re-worded into secular terms, but it can be done. I was able to land a pretty decent job with only SO experience on my resume. I’ve helped a number of people with resumes, so if anyone is having a problem translating their SO experience onto a resume, I would be happy to help. Email is fortytwoflavors@hushmail.com.

  305. Sorry folks, I don’t agree at all. I am a Scientology staff veteran and don’t have any of Mike Rinder’s problems and neither do the other staffmembers who I know.

  306. At the time, it was very perplexing to see DM attempt to humiliate and tear you apart as a being, yet not a mean bone in your body. Since that time, DM has gone on to establish himself as a notorious Suppressive on the time track.

  307. jeeeeeezzzzzzz, what could have been, if this prick had not reared his ugly head.

  308. Mike, thanks and “my needle is floating” – not only three swings but persistently. Great indication of BPC 🙂

  309. You may have been wrong and duped but as others have said hindsight is a wondeful thing.

    All the evidence suggests there is no link with intelligence or the lack of it and the vulnerability to cults. So don’t think of yourself as having been stupid. 🙂

  310. Impartial English Girl

    Haha! How about STRAWBERRY AND CHAMPAGNE preserve…?!? 😉 It would be both a pleasure and an honour to treat you to a scrummy cream tea next time you visit my little island! No mask necessary – I’ve been told I have the perfect face to be a radio presenter, hehehe… 😉 More importantly, a good ol’ rip-snorter of an evening in the pub is DEFINITELY in order when friends are in town! ;-D

    Keep the faith, my friends. And ALWAYS keep smiling (even if it IS sometimes more of a grimace…) 🙂

    IEG xxx

  311. Mark R. Levin’s “Ameritopia” does a good job of describing the Existing Scene in a philosophical framework.

  312. Impartial English Girl

    You’re a good ‘un Sam. xx ❤

    Cheers also Splog ❤ (grovelling apologies for the centuries of oppression, though your homeland might be independent again quite soon. 😉 , and for that whole “Mary Stuart thing”…). And you’re right – the world wouldn’t be in half the pickle we’re in at present if people were more tolerant of others’ beliefs… Ah, one day, maybe…

    But this is a good place to be, right here, whatever one believes (unless one’s beliefs are those in favour of cruelty, extortion, emotional blackmail, and endless vanity). Mr. Rathbun has created a place where beliefs and human rights are valued and respected and I, for one, greatly enjoy reading the opinions and views on here – both those I agree with and those that I don’t.

    Did you know that there’s apparently more caffeine in tea than in coffee… 😉

    IEG xxx

  313. Come to think of it, I would love to see Mark Levin, a Constitutional Attorney, confront David Miscavige in a court of law. Perhaps, soon, DM can look forward to becomming a pen-pal with someone from Criminon to set up a co-audit with Charles Manson in Folsom, California.

  314. George M. White

    Thank you. Your information about Louis means a great deal to me.
    I shall remember him in my meditation. I knew about the cancer in
    the early 1990’s


  315. Forget his slice – you should see him in the sand traps!

  316. Publius would be my choice for fourth. We could all beat him! (Just kidding, P.)

  317. That’s the thing, Mike. Each moment is a new moment if you think like a dog.

  318. Steve, you realize that you and ol’ Viktor just answered the question, “What is the meaning of life?”
    Thanks for spoiling the game! (kidding.)
    BTW, Steve turned me on to Frankl’s book. Incredible story of his years in concentration camps and the branch of psychotherapy he developed out of the experience.

  319. What you wrote amounts to nail hit squarely on the head for me — quoting it here:

    “Here is perhaps another aspect of why we all stayed: Theta has a sort of magnetic power, and aesthetics, as LRH said, is very close to theta. When we all got into Scientology, didn’t we see an aesthetic truth that had an almost magnetic power? I don’t mean *hypnotic* power; I mean the power of a very high purpose that spans the dynamics.”

    Yes, I did. I suspect most if not all of us did.

  320. Good points, Jeff and Steve. Jeff and I had just about wrapped up all the marketing for the books and lectures including the Materials Guide Chart when DM said that it all basically was now rejected and had to be rethought and then redone. I was gone within a week.

  321. Problems?

  322. George,

    The lecture was given 28 January 1958.

  323. Yes, this topic of conversation does hit a nerve. I was hesitant to leave because of all the friends I would be leaving behind to take the SH** that I had been buffering them from. But, when they took our 2 year old away from us — that was it.

    And Karen you are sooo right about the innate human NEED to belong. Thanks for remembering that quote. It is a basic human need and anyone who wants to play with it manipulatively sure can.

    The deep friendships I made while ‘in’ are still dear friends. I don’t care if they are “In” “Out” or have joined “Hare Krishna” (lol), friends are friends and I enjoy diversity in my friends.

    Difficult to do one the KR Policy got put in to the point you could not even speak freely to your own family

  324. Many Anons distrusted Marty but tought better of Mike. I Was the opposite. I gave Marty the benefit of the doubt when he started this blog but had a distrust about Mike Rinder.

    In the end he is a man that got disconnected from his family

    That is because he made a choiche. I applaud him for that.

  325. Yep.

  326. I’ve always thought “the greatest good for the greatest …” could be a nicer sounding form of “the ends justify the means” when applied in the real world. The only way I can figure it wouldn’t boil down to that is if the phrase “as long as no harm is caused to any dynamic in the pursuit thereof.” Pursuing ” the good” is fine as long as no harm is inflicted and/or rationalized in the quest for it.

  327. Louis Swartz has diabetes, requires continual care, diet control and proper rest. Any guesses as to how many of those requirements are filled? Louie must be in his late 60’s or early 70’s now. When I last saw him in March 2010 he was still on post in the FSC WUS office, which was dead empty on Wednesday, Thursday before 2 p.m. the last week of the LRH Birthday Game. Dead empty like the entire PAC Base was that day.

  328. MR and SH,
    Don’t really have anything to say that would add to the excellent comments. I couldn’t agree more with all that has been said here.
    Y’all are the best.

    Having some trouble with internet connection since I’ve moved, which is getting sorted out, but makes me a bit late on the chain with the recent blogs, which have all been excellent.

  329. Thank you Worsel. That said a lot to me that was important to my understanding. Since the confront of evil takes the most confront I thought there was something wrong with me ’cause I find out long after damage has been done. Dang. Ha!

  330. Hey Singer77, Maybe try being SO or CMO or even better how about you go to INT and then get back to us. Staff members, who are allowed to live outside of CoS compounds, can’t really compare their situations with those of SO or those at INT many who have not been able to leave it’s razor wire enclosed space in a decade or more.

  331. Great Singer77~Where is this wonderful place to be on staff at?

  332. Valkov, I don’t think he adopted and implemented them. He never left them behind. He continues them.

  333. +10000000

  334. Laura, that just seems so incredibly ridiculous looking from the outside at case to handle as an auditor…you get entheta, you audit it away. Of course I know people aren’t allowed to view solo auditing that way inside DM’s place but really, a solo auditor on OT7 should be big, bright and confident in his/her abilities to handle whatever “case” comes their way – and with ease. I say this only qualified as a Clear and Grad V & solo course completion, not even knowing the upper level processes. But I feel this way now, already about solo auditing even my set ups.
    I am so grateful that I can get all my OT levels away from that suppressive crap and that I never let anybody screw up my case!

  335. David, that’s about what I did but it took me about 10 years to find Steve then Marty’s site.

  336. Bwhahahahahahaha Jim!!! Sour grape-face doink! Looks like the north wind blew and his face stayed that way! 😉

  337. Sam, I remember those lines well…

  338. Bingo! Exactly perfect!

  339. Mike & Kevin, you guys are awesome…

  340. Worsel, that is exactly how I moved out and up. Found out where I really was. At that point I looked at what the future would hold from that point forward (from where I truly was) and KNEW there was no way in hell I could have that for myself or my kids. No amount of words or convincing or PR or threats or anything worked after that.

  341. Bryan, that is exactly right. I can only do what I can and be who I is. 😀

  342. I have a great affection for some of these Down Under Aussies and Kevin is one of them ……..smoooooooooooooch

  343. Awesome post and awesome comments. All.

  344. Hallo Mike,
    am a bit late with my comment but wanted to add my point of view. Basically I can share all your thoughts about stay or leave. I did have by far not that hard life within Scientology as you had. After I quit, years later I often thought about why I did not leave earlier. But for me I would have to add the most important point. I did not meet LRH. But I met some people that worked on Apollo or did some levels there as public. I cannot really put it into language and words. But you see truth, you feel what Scientology is all about. This spark of LRH you get in a split second you never forget. And that was my main reason I stayed as long as I did. And that might be the only reason DM removed any one that ever met LRH. He had to make shure no one ever remembers what it is all about.

  345. Wow, the story of this woman really struck a cord with me. I think it demonstrates why some people will cling to their delusions with all their might when faced with truth. Who wants to admit they gave up decades of their prime years, a loving relationship, a beautiful home, their retirement and children’s educations funds not just for notjhing but in active service to a man and organization who caused so much pain, suffering and blatant evil in the world (& at the same time destroying any reputation or positive PR of that which you dedicated everything to (Scientology).

  346. I’ve been thinking about the subject of “Why We Stay”. To me the question is “Why we keep ourselves in abusive situations”.
    My first answer is 1) we give our power away to some outside source eg. A person, a church, a teacher, a teaching etc. They become big, and we become small. At some point, in the beginning, we trust that which we give our power away to.
    Then, the source of our confidence, sense of well being, happiness, realizations/cognitions is assigned to that outer source. And since everything in the outside(material world/MEST) is always in flux, we are never secure in our own knowing,power etc.

    Now, if the teacher, teaching, person is a good teacher, he will lead you to the fact that your power, happiness etc. comes from YOU and not him or the teaching. The teacher/teaching was simply a vehicle to awaken your own self realization. True teachers liberate, false teachers enslave.

    Once we realize this folly, we start taking back our power. Then we realize that it was we, who gave permission to the abuser to abuse. Unknowingly maybe, unconsciously probably, but we did it.

    All knowing, all learning, all cognitions, all power, all happiness, all exterior perceptions, all joy, all love, all dynamics, all freedom, all immortal consciousness of joyous forever is our own very nature. It is we who are all these things. Paths, teachers, bridges, books, auditing, meditation etc etc are only vehicles. They are not the destination. We, as souls/thetans, are treasure trove of all our searching. And when we honor, know by directly perceiving, realize this truth, we no longer seek to get our asses kicked to awaken us from our slumber.

  347. LOL! Talk (briefly) with ya soon! 🙂

  348. I think you may have DM’s case spotted there, Tara. Maybe he is stuck in a incident from the Inquisition.

  349. Will someone Please fort the love of Xenu, pull him OFF Davey! I haven’t seen some one stomped that bad since we had a snitch in the county jai!

    Throw in the friggin towel someone please!

  350. wow, 17 years! that is persistence, but you really spelled it out..why should anyone be afraid of entheta who is ‘ot’.

  351. I’m glad you you corrected that. 🙂

  352. Reblogged this on My LRH.

  353. Worsel, If not to much trouble, could to tell me where Ron talkes about the confront of evil so I can find my MU. Sort of write a cram for me on the above ’cause I’m quiet sure in 20 years of staff and altogether 37 years reading LRH I should know this and the MU has literally been ruining my life since I should have ‘got’ it which would have handled a whole life ruin for me! I had to cry before I could write this. Is there an examiner around? Wfheeew!

    When I was looking for the reference, I found the (expanded) Code Of Honor By Ron copyright 1978. It’s LRH:gal. I think I kept it from my Welcome to the SO pack from back in 1979. I did Captain Bill Robertson’s ‘Bridge Bilders’ project a few years b4 I did the EPF. If not for that (which should not have been) I would have done a 1977 pack & missed it. I scanned it & can e-mail it in a few days – I’m mid a computer change so don’t have e-mail quite yet. My address is PumpkinLyn1@gmail.com. For any one who would like a copy. Yes, I figure I’ll get a few hundrend requests. Maybe I can send one copy that can be authenticated and put on a site?

  354. Pingback: 5 Things to Know About Mike Rinder – Confront And Shatter

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