SP Times covers Miscavige cult’s hatred of children

Here it is, http://www.tampabay.com/news/scientology/church-of-scientology-no-kids-allowed/1101759

I think they did a decent job of showing all this church anti-second dynamic business is counter policy.  Could have made it more crystal clear it was the iron heart of DM that implemented virtually all of it.  They had more than two pretty damn credible witnesses to that aspect. Perhaps they took it easy on Miscavige because ALL threats levelled by the church’s teams of lawyers ONLY come when it is Dave being talked about. Or maybe they’ll connect the dots tomorrow. We shall see. If they don’t we’ll fill the vacuum fully this week.  

Love and respect to Claire, Astra, Laura , Sunny, and – yes – Sudden Sam Domingo for speaking out.

348 responses to “SP Times covers Miscavige cult’s hatred of children

  1. These women are brave, they have good hearts, and they have integrity. I am so happy to see them with their own children and families now.

    Thank you to all of them for sticking out their necks in order to help stop the abuse.

    I used to confuse the use of the term “policy” for “LRH policy” when it was used by someone in the church. I no longer make that mistake.

    Now, policy within the church is whatever the group can be gotten to do to further the dark, selfish wishes of miscavige, what is now called “command intention.” If a Sea Org pregnancy always results in pressure from the group to terminate it, with undesirable consequences known to the woman, whether they are verbalized or not, then that is the policy of the group.

  2. lunamoth, agreed right on down the line.
    Marty, on Mosey’s computer

  3. I used to like Tommy Davis, but he’s looking more and more like a weird vampire- half dead inside. He doesnt know if he’s lying or not anymore I think.

    Of all the gory details I’ve come to believe these past few months, this part is possibly the most disturbing. It really is a solid confirmation for me that COB is really a 1.1 SP.

    Mistreating kids and forcing abortions are things that will lead you to find out how punitive and vengeful I can be. I can be willing to forgive many things and have been open to accepting the idea that COB is inept or misguided, or maybe I couldnt do a better job or I dont understand the scene, but this stuff gets me a bit pissed. Pissed.

  4. It’s actually good to watch the CofS lie, and lie, and lie to the nation.

    Every Scientologist knows they are lying.

    And everytime they are seen lying, with a straight face, people get to “find out who they really are”.

  5. This is a very powerful video!
    Tragic. 😦
    How much lower than enforced abortions can DM go?

  6. For anyone who has fully explored the material of OT III – there could be no worse indictment of the C of S than their anti-children attitudes.

    Rathbun is the only guy that legitimately helped me in my effort to protect children. I never forgot his name.

    That’s why I trust him.

    Thanks, Marty, though you may not remember me.

  7. Thank you ladies for speaking out the truth.

    Can St. Pete Times ask Tommy Davis, How do you know that this all didn’t happen when you were not even there at time? What a fuck does Tommy know?

    Tommy sounds like he was there in the RPF with all these ex-executives while being abused by little Davey, he was there when these pregnant young girls were forced to abort.
    Tommy, you were partying at the time and weren’t even there,therefore what you tell the media is completely a lie so SHUT THE FUCK UP!

  8. “To the contrary, those wanting children are helped, Davis said. “They receive assistance from the church, including immediate prenatal care, medical care, financial assistance and even help in finding housing and employment upon departure from the Sea Org.”

    No way. Nobody helped me with prenatal care or even suggested it. I brought it up and insisted several times until I was finally allowed to go see a doctor and get things checked. out. Housing and employment? What wall? This did not happen – and maybe only now due to the work of all of our whistleblowers is this happening to those who get pregnant.

    “Davis responded in writing. He also provided the sworn declarations of 10 former and one current Sea Org member who said the church and their colleagues comforted and supported them during their pregnancies, allowing naps, giving gifts and creating flexible work schedules.”

    Gifts! Naps! Are you freaking kidding me! The only person who comforted me was another SO member who was also routing out. She was the first person to say “Congratulations” and it was so nice to hear it that I cried. Everybody else was disgusted with me. The security guards put me on MEST work to start off with, and then they thought better of it and let me do very low effort handy work like sewing. And one particular security guard was so verbally rough with me that I, myself, actually pulled out Dianetics and started showing him LRH quotes about how to treat pregnant woman. He had no idea and was simply ingrained into the “no-care” attitude for us ethics bait particles. He still didn’t change until I reported him to another guard who said he would take care of it.

    I had a near-miscarraige incident that required I got to the hospital urgently, and yes the MLO was somewhat decent to me, but I could tell that overall the whole situation was dev-t in her mind because I was leaving anyway and she had others SO members to attend to as well.

    The atmosphere was so absolutely counter to having a baby that it effected one’s ability to actual spiritually contribute to what was physically happening until I finally got out of there and could say HELLO WORLD, I’M PREGNANT! YEEEEEHAW. It was like a suppressive environment to suddenly find yourself pregnant in – definitely the worst place to be a pregnant lady I could ever think of.

    Damn – Just had to let loose a little on this one. There are so many lies from Tommy Davis in this article it is unbelievable.

  9. I will never forget the time around 2000-2001, when I worked for an OT VII , when 2 young Sea Org members had left the SO, who also worked for her in a different capacity, confided in me and told me that they left because the wife became pregnant and were told she needed to have an abortion. The young girl was crying while telling me this, while their beautiful baby boy was playing around us. OH! He was such a beautiful thetan!! This was my first run in of this situation. I was beyond horrified, beyond pissed. I queried her using all the tech I knew, and I knew beyond a shadow of a doubt that she wasn’t lying. I got up from my chair, and gave her a big hug and kiss. A few years later, a very good friend of mine who has 2 sons in the SO told me about her one son who’s at Gold. He was married, and the wife got pregnant. She had the abortion, they divorced. My friend to this day as not recovered from this travesty as that was her grandchild, the only one that she would ever never have. She told me she even tried to get the powers to be to let her DIL have the baby, and she would raise it. To no avail.

    I want to stab Tommy Davis’ eyes out every time I hear him deny what we know is true. ~

  10. And one more thing – regarding the affidavits. Yeah, I signed one of those too, swearing how they took such wonderful care of me. That was right after I got the one and only phone call from the MLO where she was “checking in on me”, so that they could rightfully state in the affidavit that she had done so. Literally I was 4 1/2 months pregnant, had been on the decks routing out for 2 1/2 months and she never once checked in on me until it came time for me to sign an affidavit.

    The only time I dealt with her at all was when I had to be rushed to the hospital, she drove me there and that was it. I took myself on a bus to the prenatal appts, and handled everything else on my own.

    Those affidavits are written by OSA and you can’t leave unless you sign them.

    Even at the time when I was routing out (I was not yet as far removed from the church as I am today) I looked at the affidavit and what it proclaimed in shock, but knew I had to sign it.

  11. Lady Lancelot

    It is tragic and I know the Church is lying. I had a friend in the Sea Org and his wife got pregnant. They did not want to abort the baby and had to leave the Sea Org. The transition was tough. They had only $500.00 between them, no jobs, no family, no where to stay. Just off-loaded. Cut off from the life they had known. So I know it is not true that the Sea Org is supportive if one wants to keep the baby. They do everything but.
    The behavior is appalling to begin with and then lying about it makes it so much worse. It makes me feel ashamed.

  12. Virgil Samms

    Yes, DM got a break there. I was in the Sea Org before Dm started to attack the 2D.

    I was at Int in 1984 when John T was first brought up to Int. He was given a huge tour of the property and when he finished, hetalked to all of Int and Gold. The first thing out of his mouth was: “Where are the children? They need to be part of this. The 2nd dynamic is an important dynamic and you cannot ignore it.” He was actually pissed that there were no children there.

    When the 2d was slowly nuked the tone level of the Sea Org went down.

    ML Tom

  13. UnluckyPatron

    This is powerful, upsetting but needed. I feel the more and more atrocities brought to light and Tommy Davis’ inane single response of, “It’s not true” and speaking on behalf of people he doesn’t know and times he was not a part of, is causing more and more unrest with Scientology public along with just people in general who read about it.

  14. There are so many stories out there.
    But as far as I know it isnt all down to DM.
    Was he around in 1982 or so? Because that was the first coerced abortion I saw, right there at Dean Stokes mission in Dallas.

    Dean, if you are out there reading, I am that pita you threw out on the street because I was so freaking idealistic. Ready to talk yet? Because as far as I am concerned, it was YOU, not me, who backed down.

    I was assigned to be my own seniors abortion twin.

    Under Deans rule you had to do a completed staff work summary to even have a “2-D”.
    She’d been working full time there for at least a year, maybe more.
    As far as I know my senior had the blessings of Dean that she was “upstat” enough to have this relationship that led to her pregnancy.

    She was given a choice however, abort or LEAVE. Way to nurture a third dynamic.

    Even though all the presure on her made her a bitch of a senior, any two year old could see past that. She was such a griefstricken child really, going through a grown up experience in the most fucked up way.

    There is no room for labels or posts in a group that is incapable of establishing a viable (and that means LOVING) third dynamic.

    A truly functioning third dynamic is completely in communication with at least the first and second dynamics also.

    It was so sad to see what she went through, I didn’t understand it much at all. I was young and had never walked in her shoes.

    But I had my own similiar story about ten years later.

    Looking back, seeing my “senior”, the same age as my oldest daughter now, and me the same age as my youngest daughter. THAT, and Time has opened my eyes quite a bit.

    Until the church can function on the third dynamic, which as I said include the first and second at the minimum, all their fluff about “mankind” is utter bullshit.

    This influence that came over the church happened so shortly after I joined staff that I still don’t feel clear on the timelines, but I do know this…it happened suddenly and in an overhwhelming way. As green as I was, there was no missing the palpable surpression.

    If it wasn’t DM, it surely was the influence of this suppressive justification of overts that led to his rise to power.

    One day perhaps, we will see the stories of all those women who destroyed their own 2-D to save the world.

    Especially psychotic because the very representitives of LRH policy were demanding you do something that LRH never condoned as far as I know.

    I miss the thank-you thread;)

    But I would feel relieved to see this through to EP, so many years and so many stories.

  15. I agree 100% – these woman are brave and strong for speaking up about something so personal and private and putting aside their own pride – so that they can reveal this situation in the hopes of helping others be spared from this horrible experience. That takes courage, love and compassion and as is certainly “the greatest good for the greatest number of dynamics” for real this time.

    Thanks ladies. You are appreciated. Lots of love.

  16. How much more will the public have to see before there is an out cry of every human rights group on the planet. I am sending this article to “Right To Life” tonight.

    These woman are very brave to tell their story in a National arena. Especially since it is such a painful subject. Thank you for standing up and telling the truth no matter what the consequences are to yourself.

    As for the dwarf, he will be taken down soon in an International area and it is not going to be pretty. I am a long time Scientologist in GOOD STANDING, OTVII and I am one of tens of thousands that are watching him go down. We are grouping up in many areas and telling others that are still “in” the real truths and this article just puts more truth out there. The dwarf is creating his own enemies daily. Soon, when the dwarf goes down, we will pick up the pieces and Keep Scientology Working. The Orgs are nearly empty now and it is because Scientologists are starting to wake up.

    Marty, thank you for this venue to get the real scene exposed and our confront up to do something about it.

    Now, I am going back to reread my original Dianetics book, I think LRH mentions abortions.


  17. Thank you for posting this Marty.
    Kudos to these ladies for standing up, speaking out and exposing the insanity. Just plain horrible what they had to go through.

    I would like the general bloggers to know that L. Ron Hubbard NEVER forced, condoned or encouraged abortions. This is all David Miscavidge, and the Int Senior Execs who agreed to his so called “policies” and became accomplices of him as a result.

    I know 2 of them, having worked in the same building (HGB) with Laura Dieckman and Astra (Merril). I am so GLAD they got pregnant again and are happy with their children.

    If I am not mistaking, Kathy Dainet, of the Dissemination Bureau (Div 2) of Flag Bureau also had an abortion around 1996 when ED Int’s Flag Order revision came out.

    The drilled patter that those women would all say was that they had a “miscarriage”.

    I just observed, along with my buddy in CMO PAC that there were too many so called ‘miscarriages’ occurring simultaneously in the Los Angeles area. “Two facts don’t jibe …”

    Of course, as expected unfortunately, the “Church” through that scoundrel Tommy Davis totally denies the truth in the videos. DM is way too coward to come out publicly and proclaim it is all HIS doing. Sickening. Well, not long ago, he used Mike Rinder for that, to his detriment.

    Thus, there is hope for change.

  18. Very true ! I agree.

  19. Another torpedo hits the admiral ship! Dave, you’re going down!!! Too bad, it almost makes me cry…

  20. Tony DePhillips

    “They receive assistance from the church, including immediate prenatal care, medical care, financial assistance and even help in finding housing and employment upon departure from the Sea Org.”


    “If they lie about that, what else will they lie about??”

  21. High on Life

    You’re right! It was Tommy’s lies on tv about disconnection that woke me up. From there on I started investigating what else they are lying about… and I found Sherman tanks all over.

  22. The first words that I read of LRH was an ethics pamphlet, a small blue stapled together booklet. Wow did it get me. It was old and dog eared. My ethics sucked. Up until that time I believed that I was an ethical criminal. Get it? It opened my eyes even though I couldn’t understand it all (misunderstoods). Eventually I got on lines with the help of my ex 2d that I had dumped when she became pregnant with my child. By all rights she shouldn’t have helped but she saw something in me that even I couldn’t see. Well I got onlines and I remember seeing this poster on the course room wall about the source of out ethics is the misunderstood word. Wow. To the degree that I have conquered my misunderstoods and glibness I have become a much more able and caring person. And I’m married to that women and we have a lot more children.

    What I am pissed off about is that the person who pushed out new courses and books was really changing the definitions of the words and concepts of the TECH. Wow. The gains I have had could have been bigger still. Eventually the golden age of tech was promoted, what a waste of time, money effort and willingness. To what ends? Squirreling the tech. Don’t worry about being declared; we have to do our own A to E anyway to redo the squirrel crap that was pushed on us.

    If DM believes LRH promised his return and that he will return; then in a twisted way he might consider it prudent to require abortions and the complete control of any children that he can control in his sphere of influence. As an antagonist of the second dynamic it makes sense to restrict SO members ability to find solace and relief in this wise. His inability to participate in this part of the 2D (no children) would explain his desire to create on a mest level: even using slave labor. This area of lose for him might also explain his choice of companions, ie TC, JT and KA. His perversion of LRH tech would be to make us stupid and be his sheep to be shorn.

    Herrod the Great, king of Israel at the time of Christ’s birth, and according to the Bible had all the male children under 2 slaughtered to preserve the perceived threat to his kingship. He was famous for rebuilding the temple in Jerusalem and building monuments as well as complete cities.

    If this is a glimpse of DM’s motivation, weird as it seems, then he is in a downward spiral building monuments that have no value, not even as valuable real estate. They will be torn down, as they are purpose built and not amenable to any other commercial use or value.

    I believe that DM is irrelevant. The church is not the tech. The buildings are not the tech. Even the church personnel are not the tech. Although I truly believe that church staff have been abused they will have to pop themselves out and come clean to what DM is really doing and so free the slaves and liberate the prisoners.

    I commend Marty and others for their efforts that will ultimately succeed in freeing the staff, the parishioners, and most importantly LRH’s TECH from this ugly fellow DM. I so don’t think God likes ugly.

    Maybe, just maybe, LRH set this up so the SP’s would have a place to attack and subvert so that we can just use the TECH in our lives and by so doing get it into the mainstream of global civilization and just be freezone.~ who knows…….

    Best, Stevie D

  23. Was DM the person who caused Flag Order 3905-1 of 3 April 1991 to be issued? I ask because the Order recites that it was issued by Captain Guillaume Lesevre as ED INT. See


    Did this Order contribute the coerced abortion problem? I ask because the Order provides that:

    “Married Sea Org members currently posted in Sea Org orgs who beget a child will be sent to a small non-expanding Class V org from the authorized list of orgs. They may NOT be posted in the Class V org closest to the SO Org or Unit where they came from or any other org not on the authorized list of orgs.”

    This puts pressure on the married and newly pregnant couple.

    The Order further provides that:

    “It is the responsibility of the local Personnel Control Officer (or HFA) to get the concerned Sea Org members replaced. Failure to get these SO members replaced within a reasonable time period (not to exceed sixty [60] days) or withholding the fact there are pregnant SO members in the org, will result in a Committee of Evidence on the org PCO, Dir Routing and Personnel, HAS, Supercargo and Captain/CO as well as the SO members concerned.”

    This puts pressure on the Org. There is a danger that, faced with the problem of replacing a difficult (or impossible) to replace couple of Sea Org members, management “solved” the problem by coercing or convincing the pregnant mother to get an abortion instead. If the woman gets an abortion, then the couple can remain with the Org and do not have to be replaced.

    For example, see:

    Does anyone know if Flag Order 3905-1 of 3 April 1991 is still valid and controlling?

  24. I read through Tommy’s letter and most of it can’t be proven one way or the other BUT THE PART THAT THE SO TAKES CARE OF YOU IF YOUDECIDE TOKEEP THE BABY AND PROVIDES SUPPORT, ETC ETC IS PURE AND UNADULTERATED LIES LIES LIES LIES LIES LIESLIES LIES LIES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I was there, I saw, Tommy you are a lying something or other.

  25. Sunny’s story of being born in to the SO, and her being a C\S duringMiscaviges Go;den Age of Squirreling, her RPF experiences (5000 hours of FPRD) etc can be downloaded in PDF format here: http://www.paulsrabbit.com/AnOrphanWithParents_20081215.pdf

    And, she just gave birth to a beautiful baby girl!
    Congratulations, Sunny!

  26. Tommy Davies is just f. revolting! I get so angry seeing him lie so blatantly. I looked at the PDF with their “testimonies”. There wasn’t even one name I ever heard of. Where did they get those people!?
    Claire, I was around and I’ll testify if you want. To the forced abortion (also had one and also couldn’t even tell my husband I was pregnant) , the treatment of pregnant woman, the separation of married couples, the invented “out-2Ds” just to separate people. I realized when I had my kids why DM does this and how gross it is.
    It’s all part of the slave making process and nothing else.
    I don’t even have the words for the “sudden-ness” I feel right now.

  27. Theo Sismanides

    Wow! I have witnessed the heavy ethics and all the shit the “ethics” officers were putting on pregnant women in CLO EU in late 90’s.

    After ED Int issued the FO in 1996 saying SO members who have children cannot go to Class V orgs abortions were the only “way” for a SO member to carry on with his duty.

    Tommy Davis you are a coward. You should resign, this is too big of a lie now.

    More people should write their stories and send them to the SP Times.

  28. I left because of several reasons. One of them, and a not so unimportant one, was, that I knew, that the group never will care for me when I am old and no longer able to work for the group.
    My parents had been poor. And I did not want to finsih my life as being very poor.

  29. Since absolutes are unobtainable the question if there is any lowest for the Sea Org to sink to is answered.
    Tommy Davis is so far the lowest I saw in terms of a spokesman for anything anywhere. He is gone as a person.
    Dismantle that “religious order” as a suppressive group which has Human Rights violations as a “Standard Operating Procedure” ingrained in its DNA! Disgusting and devastating. There are no words strong enough, though…

  30. hands shaking again…gotta go break something.

  31. This is utter depravity and it must end.

    Thank you to all the women who spoke out.

    A special celebratory yippee for Megan, who is alive and well, absolutely beautiful and almost 2 weeks old.

  32. Thank you to these women speaking out. And thanks to the Times for the story.

    While Florida isn’t completely IN the Bible belt, it currently is a very conservative state — this will do more to damage the existing corporate church than dm’s physical abuse.

    One correction — no more children rule was about 10 years earlier — starting I believe in 1986.


  33. I think the point that is so often overlooked is what was life like for families and parents in the early days of the sea org with LRH. Sure it wasn’t like your 9-5 Ward Cleaver from leave it to beaver type scenario, however people weren’t working incredible hours 24/7 – years on end. You could have a 2nd dynamic life while still working on a 4th dynamic purpose.

    DM’s crazy schedule and the demands that he puts on individual sea org members makes it impossible to be a parent with small children in the sea org.

    So just one more thing that needs to get fixed, but the root cause of why it doesn’t work is still just the same as all of the other issues. The culture and lifestyle of the sea org under DM’s control. If that gets fixed then so many other things like children, abortions, etc.. will also be handled.

  34. Enforced Abortions, another example of tragedy, treason: betrayal after trust, and OUT-TECH, DMSMH, “the pre-natal child can, ofcourse, experience terror. When the parents or a professional abortionist start after it and thrust it full of holes, it knows fear and pain…..” “Why people try to abort children is a problem which has its answer only in aberration, for it is very diificult to abort a child. One can say that in an attempt, the mother herself is in more danger of dying than the child, (italics) no matter what method is used”.
    ” A society which suppresses sex as evil and which is so aberrated that any member of it will attempt abortion, is a society which is dooming itself to ever-rising insanity”
    “Anyone attempting an abortion is committing an act against the whole society and the future;
    any judge or doctor recommending an abortion should be instantly deprived of position and practice, whatever his ‘reason'” LRH.
    There is alot more to read, if you are interested. “attempted abortions”, DMSMH.
    OK, so attempted, vs. a successful abortion, S.O. members are not judges or doctors, abortion tech has changed since this book was written, but I think LRH’s intention is quite clear on the subject, as is the current church’s.

  35. Watching Eyes

    Great job!

    A church that hates children to the point of making the mothers abort them. Sure doesn’t say “church” to me and it won’t to the millions who read the article.

    Note to dwarf: How are you doing with trying not to think of losing your tax exempt status? Remember, don’t think about it.

  36. I know for a fact that this takes place at Int. I had the dirty task to driving people to LA to get their abortions and assist them through their traumas; this is one thing that I has bothered me for years and years.

    Jackson is correct they (pregnant women) were discussed in Perimeter Council and treated like ethics particles/threats. They were assigned lower conditions and forced to make the decision to end the pregnancy or face terrible fates.

    I personally did not have anything to do with the brave women that spoke up in this article; but with many others that were RTC staff. I applaud these women for speaking out about this terrible practice.

  37. Chris Black

    “It really is a solid confirmation for me that COB is really a 1.1 SP. ”

    The factual truth of this, and thus the real evil, is that this is a “social” tone. The real tone level is much lower; say, no higher than “Controlling Bodies” or maybe “Owning Bodies”.

    Although what with Marty and Mike and JB and others shining the light of truth, I’m sure it’s losing altitude rapidly and descending into “Can’t Hide” – a short hop and skip from there to “Total Failure”.

  38. martyrathbun09

    Jan, Thanks for your confirmation. It is appreciated.

  39. martyrathbun09

    WH, If the Times doesn’t sort out the timeline in their next installment, I will this week on this blog.

  40. martyrathbun09

    Naomi, Can I send your email address to Claire?

  41. martyrathbun09

    Yes, DM ordered it. Guillaume issued nothing that had international application that was not directly ordered by DM. Note a single thing. Guillame had two young daughters at the time.

  42. martyrathbun09

    Stevie D, Thanks for the history lesson and for your sentiments.

  43. martyrathbun09

    Re Christie’s comment here; read it well and contemplate Tommy’s lies as scripted by DM.

  44. martyrathbun09

    Christie, God bless you for saving your wonderful son from that infanticidal barbarian.

  45. martyrathbun09

    OT VIII, wow, I’d love to hear that story. If you want you can email me at howdoesitfeel@hushmail.com

  46. Windhorsegallery & Marty,

    The Times have the full timeline on this whole sorry episode, I wrote it and sent it to them and both Lucy and me then spent hours with them going over in detail how, step by step, Miscavige attacked children, families and even couples (through divorces and his “co-mingling” rules).

  47. Are all these statements correct?

    DM changed SO schedule to leave virtually no time for family or personal time, enforced long hours, sometimes days on end with little or no sleep- sleep deprivation.

    DM cancelled family time and “family day” in the SO.

    DM policy for no children in SO, first punish by transfer to small failing orgs, then evolving into offloading later on. New policy led routinely to coerced abortions.

    DM raised prices or services to make Scientology out of reach of the average person and suppressively expensive for even above average wages.

    DM changed the CLV staff pay system, making it impossible for staff to make any money to live on.

    DM changed the definition of Instant Read and FN, thereby reducing the effectiveness of processing and inhibiting auditor training.

    DM introduced a Pro Metering course with out-gradient dating drills that should more correctly be learned at higher levels.

    DM altered the EM9,9a films to show incorrect reads

    DM introduced a huge arbitrary at the begining of the bridge, called the Basics, thereby greatly increasing the runway to getting auditing and producing auditors

    DM introduced an arbitrary of “hundreds of hours” of Objectives, thereby inhibiting many from traveling up the bridge and creating overrun

    DM introduced a “new” Dianetics Auditor Course that doesnt work, has confusing drills and is a barrier instead of a route onto the bridge.

    DM, provabably by actual anaysis of written and verbal statements has lied numerous times in events, falsely reporting stats and misleading people as to the state of scientology expansion

    DM has, according to many (#?) high level SO Officers has on many occasions physically assualted and mentally abused staff.

    I could go on and on. I need to put together a good list like this for my doubt. I’ll work on it more later.

    If anyone has anything to add. Documentation, links or anything I can follow up on myself is goodbecause I want to send this around as part of a letter.

  48. I coined a new word- “Provabably”.

    I meant provably, but I kind of like provabably…

  49. [Sudden]

    You know, I have been helping people deal with this for the last 4 years (since I became aware of it) and thought I had my emotions under control, but this just stirs up all of the righteous indignation and rage that I felt when I first learned of these abominations. There are just no words for this. This is why I made them issue an SP declare on me….no way in he** would I ever want to be a part of that group, in any way shape or form. This is why I supported (and still do) Anonymous in their RAEG * and protests against corporate Scientology. Whatever their “PR line de jour” is, this is one thing that just can not be excused……

    ” The historian can peg the point where a society begins its sharpest decline at the instant when women begin to take part, on an equal footing with men, in political and business affairs; since this means that the men are decadent and the women are no longer women. This is not a sermon on the role or position of
    women: it is a statement of bald and basic fact. When children become unimportant to a society, that society has forfeited its
    – LRH “Science of Survival”

    (Note that it is NOT titled “Science of Succumbing” or “Science of Domination”)


    *Raeg – extreme anger

  50. Truth, Such language. I Love your ‘sudden’.

  51. Christie, Lucy and me all routed out of the Sea Org at the same time back in 2006. What Christie says is absolutely true — DM & Tommy Two Tone are lying their asses off.

    Interesting that Christie was put on heavy physical labor (though pregnant) but OSA intervened. I suspect that Christie and her child were spared that ordeal ONLY because Astra, Claire and others were already speaking out about the attrocities. So instead Christie was kept locked up in the basement 24/7!

    But by the same token I would like to congratulate and thank everyone that has spoken out on this issue. I know it could not have been easy to speak of these things but you should be proud of yourselves. I have absolutely no doubt you’ve forced the church’s hand and saved lives, none whatsoever. Children are alive and more will be alive in the future because of your courage.

  52. martyrathbun09

    HJ, righto. Can you forward it to me so that we may post it this week. I believe SP Times has been so hammered by investigation and legions of lawyers suppressing any “bad thought” about Miscavige, that they are petrified of telling the whole truth. Thanks.

  53. Truth,
    Tommy would love you to believe he was completely ignorant of the abortions that went down at CCInt and that he is merely being ordered to tell the media lies.
    I’m afraid his real crime is worse.
    Tommy worked with Mike Gomes (my husband at the time) in the president’s office at CCInt. They were close friends – very close.
    Right Tommy? You following the blogs?
    Want to meet publicly (in front of any news media or lawyer) and call me a liar face-to-face in front of Mike?
    I’m game if you are.
    Let’s see if you are as adept at covering up your own crimes as you are at covering up for DM.
    I promise you that I will tear apart your carefully scripted lies if you ever have the confront to go up against me on this one.

  54. WH

    I was at the Int base in 1996 as part of the New Era of Management. And I am positive that the no-children rule and written policies came out in 1996. I joined the SO in 1993 and at that time there was still a possibility of having children but being sent to a Class V org as a punishment. I saw several people go to a Class V org (including Jeannie Sonnenfeld who went to Cinn in the 90’s due to being pregnant.) I was at Int when one of DM’s juniors came into our training room and briefed all of us on the new issues. We were the first to see them, had to read the, handle any BI’s, etc. Then when we fired out with our different command teams all over the world we brought the new issues with us and had to enforce them.

  55. martyrathbun09

    Sam, I am afraid the answer is “when pigs fly.” You scare the hell out of me, and I’m fearless.

  56. Nightmares Getting Less

    The lies of Mr. Davis are so blatent, so sickening.

    I can attest that my wife and I too were victims of being ordered to have an abortion in the SO. It tore my wife up on a daily basis for years and years, and years.

    I also saw the ex- SO affidavits on the St. Pete Times website. You should see who they are from, and also see how similarly they are all written.

  57. Sunny – and now you have taken back that which was denied you. What a perfect end to this tale.
    Megan will bring forth healing and the many other priceless gifts of motherhood.
    Thank you to all the beautiful, amazing children (including my own) that later came into the world and proved beyond any shadow of a doubt that the ability to conceive life is a miracle, not a crime.
    Megan – you couldn’t be in better hands. Flourish and prosper and bring joy to the world 🙂

  58. Christie you are so right! When I read the response from Tommy D. on how pregnant women in the S.O. are helped, I just about fell out of my chair, while knocking my dropped jaw on the table.

    Baby showers OMG, not in a million years.

  59. Dear Packman,

    Many people knew Kathy when she was Kathy Brown. She took care of many Sea Org children including Guilluame’s.

    Kathy Dinait did not have an abortion. She had a miscarraige. She insisted on keeping the child and refused to have an abortion. She was then confronted by Int Management Execs including Guillaume accusing her of “blowing the Sea Org” because she wanted to have a child.

    She was not allowed to eat with the rest of the staff and had to eat on the stairwell.

    She miscarried. She was very upset. She was put through ethics along with her husband for their attempt to have a child. She didn’t dare try again.

    Kathy is my little sister.

  60. Christie, I agree completely!

  61. Christie,

    It’s really great that you and your son came out safely!

    Saw the first affidavit and remembered that it was too late for her to get an abortion – she was assigned to do dish washing for months with Bill Black and Don Bateman. I felt for her as her pregnancy was showing and it was pretty heavy work. I seem to remember that she wasn’t allowed to leave until almost the deadline where she could travel. I think Jackson would also remember about this.

    Talked to and was a friend on FB a while ago and she disconnected as she seems to be a card carrying member DM bot now, as her sister is still at Gold. She had raised her daughter by herself as she’d divorced from Chris and had finished up her staff contract in Chicago – but was required to pay her own way to get sec checks at CLO WUS in LA which

    Never bothered to really read the rest of those statements – seemingly a back up to Tommy Davis’ predictable, repeated and ridiculous braying.

  62. Sam, WOW! Talk about ‘sudden’! I certainly
    won’t mess with you.

  63. Your Humble Servant

    Well, the Scn public doesn’t know anything about this. They know SO members aren’t allowed to have children but they haven’t thought about what happens if a SO woman becomes pregnant. They will be horrified to find out.

    We again owe the SP Times a big debt of gratitude for its truthful reporting.

    Yes, Ron railed against abortions in DMSMH, and maybe SOS too.

    Although I have done relatively little auditing, one of the most unforgettable experiences I had as a student auditor was seeing the big, unmistakable rock slam that a new pc had on her recent abortion that she felt terrible about.

    DM evidently hates sex, hates children, hates people, hates life.

    Although I am a Scn in good standing I will never again attend an international event, and I don’t see how I can ever again take a service in the official C of S.

    Marty and everyone, thanks for all you are doing!

  64. crashingupwards

    Fidelio, I agree.

    Tommy Davis makes Baghdad Bob look like a straight shooter.

    The kid sucks. No moral compass whatsoever.

    Any amends project he ultimately agrees to should take him into his next life. Better yet, put him into a womb so he can be aborted. Ass.

  65. Victoria,

    In ’82 – DM was “Special Project Ops” to make it possible for LRH to come back “on line” to the Int base. This never happened and that core of that project became the top of “ASI”.

    The sailing ship and pool area of the “workers paradise” was one of the first major renovations as it was supposed to be an LRH space. DM ran a mission with Rick Aznaran as IC to do it in 6 weeks! Needless to say, it took months or no sleep for the entire base and Rick took the blame for that. We all got memento T shirts out of it and it was a complete group engram.

  66. crashingupwards

    Lucy, thge SO was always a tough place to raise kids. Even if you got all your family time and no one was messing with you it was barely enough to justify it as a family.

    The SO is an idea whose time has come and gone.

  67. Go break some bread Sarge, could it be low blood sugar? 🙂

  68. Thanks for the story Sam, TD can’t think with truth because of all those lies he’s barked over time. I think his life is not so simple as when one sticks with truth.

  69. Mark Fisher

    Thank you for pointing out these quotes from DMSMH.

    Anyone who every read that book, the first book that began this whole thing, knows that LRH was against abortion and what it did to the unborn child not to mention the mother.

    I don’t know why the article didn’t point this out as being contrary to the “Official” policy of Scientology towards abortion but the out point was so big, you could drive a Mac truck through it.

    I knew it was not okay from the first time I read the book and so did every other Scientologist. That’s one reason why this subject was not openly talked about when staff were forced to get abortions. It was out tech and against what LRH said.

    Thank you to all the women and to Jackson for speaking out in these articles. More light shined on a really criminal scene.

    Im not sure where the rest of these articles are going, but I can tell everyone that in the late 70’s and early 80’s, children were definitely looked upon as a major distraction to production and having been one of the people who recieved the LRH orders regarding child care at the FLB and Pac( I was the LRH Comm for Estates at the FLB), he also wasn’t very happy about it and disliked the State laws that ordered the amount of Nanny’s per baby/child. He thought it was a waste of too many personnel per child.

    Child care was always considered a problem and the parents of these kids know this to be true too. They had to fight for almost every minute they spent with their kids.

  70. martyrathbun09

    Mark, Thanks. Big difference between considering children a distraction, and infanticide implemented in the 80s.

  71. Impartial English Girl

    This is shocking almost beyond belief. All those little babies who didn’t even get a chance to live…

    DM and L’il Tommy D are starting to make the Taliban look like shining beacons of tolerance and fairness. How much longer are they going to keep getting away with this?

    But I’m not surprised DM doesn’t like children – he’s clearly terrified of ANYONE taller than he is.

  72. Tommy Davis is in the hole most likely, he hasn’t been physically seen for quite some time. So Tommy is really not commenting himself personally. Those responses are letters dictated by DM but to keep up appearances that DM is running club med and everyone is singing camp songs around the fire every night, they are from “Tommy Davis”, church spokesperson.

    I even wonder if they are legally side checked, as an attorney would question their client about what they are saying and can you prove this and is it the truth. But then again his attorney’s (Monique is in for the money, not the ethical high road). Moxon is so wrapped into the Church and DM because of to much history. Remember Moxon’s daughter was the one that was allowed to tend a family of squirrels at INT base, and then suddenly tried to save them and was electrocuted to DEATH.

    DM is smart because he has everyone else do his dirty work, make the statements, etc.. so when things are found out, he won’t be the one who lied, or deceived anyone, he will be the innocent one who was duped by everyone else around him!

  73. Well said Daisy!

  74. Lunamoth, that is an important observation. When did DM’s “Command Intention” replace LRH policy in CoS?

    It is in the nature of a dishonest personality like DM to replace established language and terms to effect changes that go unnoticed at first, but summate to large changes over time. Examples that should be put in a chart and dated:

    1. When did “Command Intention” replace LRH policy?

    2. When did “IAS donations” replace “exchange?”

    3. When did “COB RTC” replace LRH as Source?

    4. When did “FPRD” become senior to OT VII and OT VIII?

    5. When did six month six month sec checks become senior to OT VII and OT VIII?

    6. When did DM’s mental cruelty replace actual Ethics in CoS?

    7. When was ARC replaced by “handling” people?

    8. Why was the definition of a F/N allowed to be replaced? Did this benefit CoS financially?

    9. When did DM’s personality become Scientology? DM represents himself as the embodiment of Scientology and he is the face of CoS to the world. Critics look at DM and his behavior and polices and say, “Okay, that is why Scientology is a Cult!”

    How do you unweave DM from Scientology?

    Is DM actually a Scientologist? Was he ever a Scientologist?


  75. Lucy, Your post brings up for me what is important yet a touchy aspect of the abuses that are being exposed. Re Guilaume and any abuses he has experienced- the Hole, verbal degradation by dm, etc- your post also shows he was very much a player, not just a piece, in this sordid tale that we continue to hear more of.
    Re Sunny, I was left with the pieces of her suppressive c/s’ing on one of my children who was in the SO. So in spite of her victimdom, she went out of her way to make other’s lives a hell as well. Sunny’s story needs to be told, and tragic it is, but there are other flows on these stories. And I am sorry about your sister.
    Scanning my sometimes sketchy memory, I don’t recall the MR’s playing the victim card, but are taking responsibility for Flow 2 and 3 and doing everything they can to bring this insanity to a halt.

  76. It really pisses me off when the church purports to have “scores of affidavits ” supporting their outrageous lies, but thanks to td’s recent track record, I can see it’s really a pretty good thing, and that kind of gives me a nice warm feeling, for this reason:

    I have a very good friend who’s daughter was put through this same abortion harrassment by Dave Pettit at CCI. The daughter AND her
    husband routed out rather than abort their child. Today they have two beautiful kids and my friend is a very proud grandmother. But all concerned have tremendous charge and upset surrounding the duress, coercion, threats and abuse that was aimed at a pregnant young woman and her young husband by the agents of the church. And my friend has spoken to her other friends about it. We know what the church put these “good scientologists” through, and that two wonderful kids are only alive because their parents stood up to the church and were willing to experience expulsion from the S.O. rather than end a baby’s life.

    Having never been in the S.O., I STILL know tommy is lying about abortions, and so do many other people. And it’s going to backfire on them AGAIN, like the disconnection lies, when people say to themselves “If he’s lying about
    this, what ELSE is he lying about?”

    Stoopid twit.

  77. He is at “Punishing Bodies” perhaps.

  78. Mockingbird6

    Hits home for me as when my child in Sea Org got married I told them if “it” happened not to do anything else I would raise it. Now I know that would not have happened. Sick. Sick. Sick.

  79. “Mistreating kids and forcing abortions are things that will lead you to find out how punitive and vengeful I can be.”

  80. Mockingbird6

    It’s starting to look like the question should be, “Is there anything they haven’t lied about?”

  81. Mockingbird6

    OOPs! Comment above should be posted under Tony’s.

  82. I can sit in that viewpoint beyond enforced abortions, it aint pretty. Made many a better man than me cynical.


  83. Christie,

    the affidavits SHOW and prove that they KNOW PRECISELY what would be the right way when dealing with a pregnant woman.

    To perform the diametrical opposed in every single measure taken upon pregnant women demonstrate the extent and amount of evil intention à la if an abortion doesn’t get the job done perhaps a miscarriage caused by hard labour and any other possible means of abuse will do?

    Is there any guess possible how many women and how often they went through that wringer? Can this infanticide be beciphered in any way?

    To all the mothers in and out the SO: God bless your courage, integrity and tenacity, to all fathers who have stood by their wives: God bless you for saving your kids.

    And to the Monstrosity at the helm of that so-called Church: How can you sleep at night?

    Lord almighty!

  84. There is something Tommy Davis, OSA and every person who lies to cover up major situations that exist in this dangerous cult don’t get.

    Unless Scientology (specifically the Sea Org) can reform, it will continue to have little to no position within society and it will eventually cease to exist.

    Sea Org members and Scientologists are under the delusion that they are “expanding and saving the world”. The truth is that after half a century
    they have rounded up a few thousand financially affluent suckers that they keep rolling around and harassing for every dollar they can squeeze out of them. The money is used to buy empty buildings,
    promote its Dear Leader and silence anyone who might blow the whistle on the scam. The Sea Org has become everything it pretends to be the solution for.

    Having worked in the Sea Org for 27 years I know the possibility of even the slightest bit of reform within this cult to be non existant.

  85. Anything and everything to protect DM.

  86. Why people try to abort children is a problem which has its answer only in aberration …

    A society which suppresses sex as evil and which is so aberrated that any member of it will attempt an abortion is a society which is dooming itself to ever-rising insanity.

    Once the child is conceived, no matter how “shameful” the circumstances, no matter the mores, no matter the income, that man or woman who would attempt an abortion on an unborn child is attempting a murder …

    Dianetics – The Modern Science of Mental Health

    In the St. Petersburg Times the official stated CO$ position on a abortion is: “Scientology takes no position for or against abortion.”

    That’s contrary to LRH’s position of attempted murder, aberration and ever-rising insanity.

    In fact students/pcs used to get sent to ethics if they intended or had an abortion, even sec checked with threats of declares in the mid 80’s, which is a slightly different tune than coaxing SO members to have one.

    Its absolutely appalling pregnant SO members are covertly pressured into abortions (be it by seniors or higher-ups), or lose their post and marriage while dedicating their life to its purposes and objectives. This is not the conduct of religion. Even shrewd business doesn’t have the gall.

    Any Sea Org couple routinely contributes at least 550 hours monthly but children are not welcome over meager cost savings. I’m very certain LRH would be turning over in his grave.

    Ain’t no church where families aren’t welcome.

    LRH says its “insane”, the EO says its “out-ethics”, SO seniors state its required, but RTC/Scientology has no position on the matter except kick the pregnant member off/down.

    Its just so convenient to “look away” while SO members “hush-hush prod” other SO members into unconscionable acts and then officially state that the Church has no such policy, and it was the “members own decision.” An environment that by consensus of policy frowns on SO members having children, is a degraded environment indeed.

    Well, I’ll go with LRH on this, and label the 2-faced floating scum known as RTC for what it is: Insane.

  87. Crash,
    oh my, yes, put him into a womb…
    I cracked into LOL, Fidelio

  88. You tell ’em Sam! Tommy knows he is lying as he spews each and every calculated, dirty, little lie. You can see it in the interviews – he absolutely knows.

  89. Sinar, you are something….:)

  90. Yeah, do it anyway for the sake of TR3.

    Thanks for your work, it’s priceless.

  91. Christie – I left in 1993, as public in 1993 and SO already couldn’t stay SO and have kids. No one could join who had a child under 6 and that was later changed to 11 I believe. I pretty sure to no kids rule started around 1986.

    However, anyone who got pregnant wasn’t
    Treated too badly – they went to lower ors, like Jeannie.

    dm as always just got progressively more violent.

    Unless he is removed soon, there will be stories about how there wasn’t always forced poison cool-aid at Int.

    The criminally insane do not ease up. Their minds just get madder and madder.

    dm is no exception.


  92. Baby showers went by the boards along withhaving kids without incurring wrath, respect to pregnant women, Family Day, Family Time, Liberty with your kids and even access to your kids, being able to sleep with your spouse if they were in a senior or junior org, or staying married at all.

    That has all happened in the last 25 years, and follows Miscavige’s rise in power and dominance which shows you how much he’s suppresssed the Second Dynamic.

  93. Exerpt from this news item

    Hubbard, in his 1950 bestseller, Dianetics, extolled the virtues of motherhood: “A woman who is pregnant should be given every consideration by a society which has any feeling for its future generations.”

  94. Here is a little story of how this attitude toward children trickled down to public.

    In 1996, I became pregnant with my fourth child. I was on Level E of the Briefing Course at the time at ASHO. I could feel that something was very “off” about this pregnancy. I experienced fatigue and nausea nearly to the point of collapse. I felt like the walking dead, but I really wanted to finish my level, so I somehow dragged myself to course every day. One day, I was sitting on the patio behind ASHO on a break. I was sitting with my legs elevated and resting with my eyes closed. An SO member I had never seen before came up to me and told me that I could not rest there as it was “out PR”. He told me that it wasn’t his problem that I was tired and when I asked him if there was a private space where I could lay down, he said that there wasn’t. He made me get up and leave the area! I was forced to go out to my hot car just to close my eyes.

    As the weeks wore on, I became more and more unable to function. I told my supervisor about it and told him that I didn’t think I was going to be able to remain on course. Later that afternoon, I was called into a room for a private conference with an upper level SO member who was there on mission and also supervising the course room (on a bypass). I explained my desperate situation to him and these were his exact words to me: “Are you threatening me?” I was so taken aback by his comm, I was speechless. He told me in no uncertain terms that I was to remain on course – he was ordering me. I walked out of the office – numb – and robotically finished my course over the next month. I mostly slept with my headphones on with nobody saying anything about it. Sometimes, I even laid my head down on the table. Needless to say, I don’t remember that level. A few weeks after I completed, during the 5th month of pregnancy, the baby died. During the whole ordeal, I also almost dropped the body. I never went back to the BC again.

    So, even with public in an SO org, there was a clear disdain and repugnance regarding children. I want to re-iterate, however, that this did not originate from my dear supervisors, Dick and Bill. They never would have handled public this way. This attitude came from uplines.

  95. Thought Provoking


    In the early 80’s when I got pregnant I was allowed to take naps between reg cycles. Our pregnancy was welcome but I chose to leave staff to be a full time mom. Normal route out, no pressure and I only had to ensure my replacement was grooved in and on to post.

    When I first heard about the abortions in the SO, I was shocked and didn’t believe it because it was so contrary to “the eight dynamics”. After a bit more reading, I could see that this really did happen.

    This really points out the decline in Scientology overall. The SO has always had stricter standards but I am sure that pre-population control orders from DM, even the SO had a more inviting attitude towards pregnancies.

    Congratulations on your pregnancy (even if it is a few years too late)! I am SO happy that you made it go right to keep your son. Taking what should be a moment of celebration and theta and turning it into an engramic incident is just not okay. This suppressive shit has got to stop.

    DM has made the word Scientology and Sea Org restimulators for so many people. It is past time for him to go.

  96. Me too. I definitely knew something was off the rails then.

  97. Sam,

    You are absolutely right. Tommy D surely has BIG crimes and he is definitely accessory to DM’s crimes. Not only Tommy lies but also carries DM’s orders all the way through. I have seen it happen.

  98. God when I read that I wanted to run down to the OSA office and yell WHAT THE FUCK ARE YOU IDIOTS DOING?


    But instead my resolve firmed up to do whatever I can do to get those still perpetuating these crimes to be placed in jail.

    I will not stop until DM is in jail/ ousted and I can practice my religion as I have learned it – LRH!

    Fuck you DM and you fucking STUPID (mechanical definition) DMBOTS.


  99. I spent yesterday with family – blood relatives ranging from age 2 (my nephew) to 85 (my parents). We sat outside in the sun, ate, talked, laughed, reminisced, played with the kids. Pure joy. I felt such a sense of love and peace when the day was done. There is just nothing like that.

    Then I came home and read the St Pete Times article. I wept for the families that never were, and cheered the women and men who are speaking out and working to right these atrocities.

    Thank you.

  100. First, to these incredible women speaking on video for Tom Tobin’s articles, my deepest compassion and respect to each of you. I witnessed in your faces, in your eyes, the pain you have endured with what you have been compelled to do. I know how you were compelled.

    What you have done today, by speaking of what does occur, is to speak for life. Your courage in facing this is testament to the well of life force you as women are capable of.

    Thank you with all my heart.

    Second, I have my own experience, shared with another, on this. Out of respect for her it will remain so. However, she communicated to me very, very clearly something which I communicated very, very clearly to Tom Tobin when he asked; LRH WROTE DMSMH.

    All one needs to do is read it and understand it and it is clear, literally, on the subject at hand.

    For any person who has been properly prepared for, with both study and auditing, and has done thoroughly up through at least OT III there are two extremely poignant aspects to the character of David Miscavige and his ‘ilk’, his dupes, his cowed and ill and failing in life close associates, who Tommy Davis ‘speaks for’ as he does not speak for LRH, Dianetics, Scientology, or me:

    1) the concerted, deliberate and relentless assault on the Second Dynamic and,

    2) DM, as an SP, is ‘out of valence in R6’. He dramatizes it. He is overwhelmed by it. He has become it.

    These women reminded me, and brought up within me, the joy of life that two people, in love, can create. I was reminded as well of the pain of loss of that joyful creation. The pain suppressed all these years. The pain they have helped me face and find some measure of release in shared tears of the tenderest compassions.

    Thank you, with all my heart.

  101. As posted in the SP Times article:
    Tommy Davis is scared and is using DM for his own “protection” (or so he thinks). TD’s withholds are known by many and he is terrified they will be made known. He mistakenly thinks being DM’s boy toy will protect him. Oh, he is so wrong. DM is using TD in his inimitable 1.1 fashion. DM is setting Tommy up to be his next fall guy. We look forward to the day, soon to come, that Tommy joins the ranks of the “real WHY’s” for things not going DM’s way in his church of mestology.

  102. After reading stevie D’s post there was a sentence that got me to thinking.

    “….If DM believes LRH promised his return and that he will return; then in a twisted way he might consider it prudent to require abortions and the complete control of any children that he can control in his sphere of influence….”

    Is stevie D saying DM set up a no children born into SO policy, so LRH will not have an SO body to come back to?

    Has my logic gone south? I would think DM would love to share the spot light with LRH when he returns. The stages and temples he’s built are certainly large enough.

    I know LRH said he will return. Have not read that DM intends on returning….might be because there will be a shortage of willing mothers to go full term.

    Another foot bullit shot by dear leader.

  103. I was a public and yes I knew about the abortions,
    I had a friend in the SO in Clearwater, she was my best friend before she joined the SO, this was in the late 80s she called me one night to asked me to go with her to the clinic to get an abortion next day, and I asked her why you want to do and abortion??? she told me: ” they are forcing me to do it”, she was crying and she devastated.
    I was traveling out of the country next day so I called another friend to go with her, and she did.
    But the worse thing about this is that she routed out of the SO like 5 years later and she remarried, but her body was damaged because of the abortion and she was not able to have children ever.
    Sometimes She cries over this when we talk on the phone.
    And I know other public that also know about the abortions
    DM, TD you are the lowest.

  104. Mark Fisher

    I agree with you Marty. My only point is that the subject of Children and the Sea Org is a big and broad one. The organization was not set up to handle them the way it should have been.

    There are many stories of kids who grew up in the cadet org and nurseries who had problems growing up including DM’s own niece.

    And then there are stories like how the Sea Org treated kids with disabilities.

    Not a good track record at all. It should have been much better.

  105. martyrathbun09

    Mark, I agree with you. I just don’t want to ever forget the distinction so that the monster doesn’t get a pass.

  106. Mark Fisher

    Well said Jim. Completely agree with you!

    Abortion is completely against what LRH wrote in DMSMH, the “Bible” on which all else was based.

    I too have compassion with those women who stood up and spoke out in these articles and elsewhere.

  107. Watching Eyes

    If you go to the SP Times article and read the comments you’ll notice something interesting. None of the comments made by DM-bots disputes the forced abortions. They complain about the newpaper and the people making comments but I didn’t see one DM-bot deny forced abortions.

  108. Hi Mark,
    From the advices I studied when I was Supercargo Pac Base crew, the idea I got was LRH’s frustration was in the hat dumps that would occur in regards to the children. He very clearly stated he wanted the parents to wear their hat along with the SO members in charge of the children.
    DM knocked the Flag Orders out by not allowing parents to see their children. There are many existing Sea Org members who have very little, if any comm line with their children ; upsetting to both the parent and the child!

  109. George at some time if you are able can you expand on this? This is something of great interest to me and I always wondered what happens to staff and most especially Sea Org when they get physically unable to do it anymore. Since it is apparent that Sea Org members become totally seperated from extended family and are not permitted to have or maintain normal family ties who takes care of them? Even the RC church has retirement and nursing facilities for their priests and nuns.

  110. That is life endangerment of you and the unborn. down right criminal.

    Suzanne great you speak out.

  111. Jim, God buddy that was beautiful and from the heart. No wonder we all Love Elmer Fudd.

  112. Well at least one good thing came out of DM’s policy. At least that little bastard did not procreate and leave some poor child with the stigma of having him as a father.

  113. Hear, hear.

    Just received an email yesterday from someone still very much in — public at Flag.

    When I mentioned the horrific situation with BP and the Gulf of Mexico, she said — yes, it’s true. There is much wrong with the world today and fortunately scientology is here to fix it all.

    Or some such equally delusional tripe.

    On the other hand, IF LRH tech could be used to help those well-intentioned beings trapped in the SO, get out and those who have spent the last 20 years as deluded cult members, get real and whole …

    Then I’m confident that yes — these NEW scientologists could do and will do much to help the world.

    Lord knows the world needs all the help it can get.


  114. WH –

    I get what you are saying. I was referring to the no-new children – eg no new pregnancies at all or you get booted. That was a written FO in 1996. But you are correct that the general vibe of no children started earlier. Children had to be of a certain age to join the SO – all of what you are saying is true.


  115. Suzanne — I’m so sorry.


  116. I remember at Int after getting married in Las Vegas and coming back from our “Honeymoon” of being off for 3 days you had to do your “Returning from Leave” routing form. Of course seeing the Ethics Officer was on the routing form and during the interview I can remember feeling it was “out ethics” that I hadn’t used any birth control. It wasn’t even so much that I had the thought or idea or desire to get pregnant but didn’t like or want to be on the “pill” and felt more the divine intervention that I wouldn’t get pregnant so didn’t worry about it. I had to do some conditions for my “out ethics” on it.

    Now when I talk about my time in the SO & at the Int Base and why I don’t or didn’t have children the statement “our work and hours were not condusive to having children” is so ingrained that I have to stop and realize how programmed we were about not having children and how acceptable that was.

    Now looking at other religious sects children have always been the center of attention and often the more children you had the more you were revered in thoses churches. This is the only one where the value of children became such a distration to Miscolovogy’s purpose and to hear the lies that Tommy Two Tone spouts are unbelievable not to mention he was never at Int so how could one believe him over Claire anyway. I know too as I had to take one of my co-workers for her abortion to Orange County and it wasn’t fun. Like everyone else she was back to work the next day.

    This brings to mind a couple quotes, of which I may not have it exactly and someone else may know it better than me, where LRH says something about the fate of society when children are….? And also “Today’s children will become tomorrow’s civilization.” Not much of a future civiliztion to look forward to in the SO that’s for sure.

    Thus it became too late for me to try for children by the time I got out but I’m so happy that all you other ladies have been able to go on and have children. I congratulate you and for speaking out as well!!

    My love to you,

  117. Lunamoth great comment. These affi”davids” are not worth the paper they are written on if they were coherced or forced. It is so telling when none of these people can be interviewed independently and when they do produce someone like the “Witches of Eastwick” they are usually current officials and are never left alone with the ever present lawyer or Tommie D in the room.
    I weep for all these lost children for even here “innoncents” have been used to maintain DM’s agenda and manipulate their parents.

  118. This is the very cornerstone that brought down the house of cards for me, late last summer, and took me eagerly to the St. Pete Times on-line and other web sources to find out “what the hell else is going on”. Because if Preventive Dianetics, Dianetics, and the Creed of the Church (That all men have inalienable rights to the creation of their own kind) were being violated as a practice that had been going on for years….then good god almighty, get out of my way, I wanted all of it. All of a sudden that PR front-face that I knew was way overstated for “some” reason, looked very clearly like a smoke screen – and I saw my own idealistic notion of “The Way We Were” placed right smack in the middle.

    Laura D’s mother and I have a good friend in common, who shared the info about long term coerced abortions in the SO. My husband and I left the SO,(late ’79) when the conditions for raising children and creating stable familial relationships was in direct conflict with the group purposes. It became a lose-lose situation, tenuous at best (2 hr a day plus one day a week if stats were up). I “understood” how the later policy of going to an outer org would be beneficial to both the SO and the new family, especially for the kids who had been being raised in under staffed, chaotic Cadet Orgs and nurseries. I was not aware of the later policy that members were released from the SO, sent “distant”, and had to be replaced within 60 days, and still thought that SO members were routed to outer orgs to raise their children. Having been an SO in the late 70’s, I experienced the “rock and a hard place” pressure on the recruitment lines – it was extremely difficult to recruit new people and then to hold on to them long enough to get them through the EPF (new member orientation) and functioning on a post – and that was then! And the peer pressure to do the right thing for the group, to be a true group member, not let your fellow members down, etc.

    And so the reports of years of coerced abortions, were both physically upsetting, spiritually destabilizing, and personally liberating – because as I learned more and the house of cards came apart, my awareness and self-determinism increased. The truth does that. It fits, it’s right. Even if it’s ugly or abhorrent, it’s not as uncomfortable as holding a lie in place, a not-is. Tying up theta and awareness, constantly holding the not-is in place.

    A common sense idea for me is that if you go about building a brick house using wood, because wood is “easier” or quicker, you’ll get a house of wood not brick. Truth cannot be built on lies – it won’t hold. Freedom cannot be built on entrapment. The practices of an organization are the actual organization, no matter what the aims are stated to be.

    I’ve experienced so much life changing, personal enhancement through the application of the Scientology philosophy and auditing technology – personally and for others.

    I hold the hope that a change in management, along with leadership that ensures practices of the fundamentals and ideals with authenticity, transparency, and accountability for actions (including taking responsibility for the effects created in the past), would go a long way in repairing the damage done and the wake of ill-repute it has created.

    Thank you, Marty, for continuing to make the important information known to growing audiences of people who seek the truth about the CoS.

    My humble gratitude, loud applause, and deep appreciation to these women and every other whistle blower who comes forward.

  119. Think about it; do you think he would share the stage with anyone, much less the person he has betrayed more than any other? His abuses on the Hubbard family are further testimony of his distaste for the second dynamic.
    After everything we have come to find out about dm, take a moment and watch the announcement by dm of LRH’s passing on youtube. Tell me what you think-watch the facial aspects closley.

  120. Tommy Davies was not even on staff when these events occurred.

    The fact that he is denying something happened, when he was not even there to know, is telling of how reckless he is willing to be with the truth.

    If you do the math, add the times and years of the events, it is obvious for anyone that can add, there is no way Tommy could have the privilage of KNOWING if the events took place.

    Yet, here he is issuing statements to deny the claims.

    These are observations anyone reading this can make.

  121. Mark,
    You can count on it, LRH would have adapted the org plan to include the 2D, not destroy it as DM has been at for decades. Yes, it was not ever truly handled to satisfaction to embrace the dynamics, however, the choice is create or destroy.

    Now, what do you think LRH would have done, as he looked out to the future? Would he have the top of the org board manned by eunuchs? Would that org, supposedly embracing life, actually be able to assume any kind of responsibility for life, if it was forbidden and prohibited from being part of it?

    The ‘religious order’ spin now being put out by DM’s mouthpiece is a crock of shit. It is a weak PR ploy to position the SO with monkdom and nunnery for one thing, and worse, as despicable and repugnant have been the lies spewed forth by this pathetic marionette of a suppressive master, up to this point, these lies, uttered today on the subject of compulsion to abort, destruction of life and love, separation and alienation of affinity and affections are nothing other than an attempt to mask the complete hatred David Miscavige harbors for others, ESPECIALLY CHILDREN.

    No Mark, LRH would have eventually demanded that a new structure is needed to meet the facts: you cannot possibly expect to assume cause over life if you are not willing to expand out and BE LIFE. The Sea Org is not somehow excepted from that salient fact.

  122. Suzanne, sorry for the loss of your baby. Your experience does make a point regarding the real attitude towards children.

    Thanks for communicating it.

  123. What was “out PR ” was the lack of care about your condition.

  124. Thought Provoking


    Your suddeness is understood and I get it!

    Thank you for being there and helping those you have helped.

    The one thing I couldn’t help but observe is that every one of these ladies who spoke upe, still have charge on the subject. They are each doing whatever they can to get at cause over their situation and deserve our help.

    I hope that any auditors who happens know of staff who have suffered losses in this area takes it upon themselves to help get this charge off.

    DM has obliterated the second dynamic and I think it would be therapeutic for the individuals and for all of Scientology as a whole to handle this charge and put the free theta back into the area. Who knows, we could have another population explosion as a result.

  125. This is atrocious Suzanne. It’s terrible you had to experience that. Thank you for sharing your story with us.

  126. It would cost the CO$ approx. $ 10 annually so Sea Org members could have children, yet General Dave must have a 1 Billion slush fund acquired & coerced from its member-base through deceit and webs of lies to supposedly defend against what ogre?

    Even Psychs don’t stoop so low as to be intolerant of children.

  127. War and Peace

    Good insightful posting J.Swift.

    Definition of Scientologist within the Church:

    Are you LOYAL to DM ?

    (uncritical, un-challenging, DM robot)

    Definition of SO Member able to survive at INT BASE without degradation, punishment, humiliation, seperation from family~

    Loyal to DM

  128. I noticed that, one comment said only a small percentage of snc. were SO. Heh.
    Wow, what a kind church, they let their public have a family…sometimes.

    I wasn’t SO, I was public in auditor training when I had mine. I wasn’t “forced” per se, just told what a low condition I was in for not wanting to do the greatest thing for the greatest number. Taken off course and sent to ethics. It’s a long story, but I know there must be plenty of public out there with stories.

  129. martyrathbun09

    W and P, yes. And to answer J Swift’s questions. The answers are starting in or about 1990 thoughout the rest of the 90’s.

  130. Quicksilver

    I agree Matt,

    The new breed of S.O. & org staff members really don’t have much of an idea of what real applied Scientology is. That also goes for a large portion of the public.

    Real Scientology has been eroded slowly but surely for many years and it will take time to destim for many people, and then get to re-training/repairing.

  131. Chairman of the Bored

    I never understood why anyone in the Sea Org would even try to have kids. It was pretty obvious to me that you’d be bringing kids into an cult-like environment in which they are going to be severely neglected. I mean, how are you going to have time for your kids when you don’t have enough time to get sleep for yourself? Also, if you’re being paid far less than minimum wage, how are you going to provide a high standard of living for your kids?

    These women made decisions that they later regretted. It’s unforunate, but it has nothing to do with Scientology. A lot of women who have abortions have regrets after the fact.

    As regards the women who tried to have kids after the “no kids” rule, or the women who “forgot” to take their birth control without telling their husbands, well, it’s really a form of “blow” and/or unusual solution in my opinion. Why not standardly route out of the Sea Org and THEN try to have kids? I know a lot of ex-Sea Org members who took this approach.

    Nobody put a gun to these women’s heads, so some responsibility needs to be taken for the condition they got themselves into.

  132. martyrathbun09

    Chairman, you saying these women haven’t taken “some” responsibility? I think they are taking one hell of a lot of responsibility. Each and every one of them.

  133. LookingIn, don’t you think that telling her story may have been Sunny “doing everything to bring this insanity to a halt” too? I don’t recall her claiming to be a saint. Her evidence is still relevant and needs to be heard.

  134. War and Peace


    When I was brutalised up lines, Marty was the only terminal kind to me. He had empathy, he understood me. He legitimately helped me.

    Everyone obeyed his specific orders on me even though I was a base threat.

    A little kindness and understanding and duplication goes a long way. Something the Reptilian Predator would never understand.

    I second your compliment on Marty’s humanity.

  135. Gary Morehead aka "Jackson"

    Sam, Damm do I love this and you! Thank you so so much for saying that. Love it Love it Love it! Thank you Sam! — Jackson

  136. Never met COB but my questions to those who know him: did he ever share wins from his own auditing sessions, his SCN studies?

    Does he has an ethics file? If yes, what’s in it?

    Does he believe himself in past lives?

    He didn’t seek Scientology on his own as most of us. His (weird) dad got him into SCN while COB was a teenager. If he opposed his dad like many teenagers, he might have joined SCN against his own wishes and without good intentions. When he got older, he probably thought that he could get on the top but still without having good intentions towards Scientology.

    Many Scientologists think he is okay because he buys real estate for Scientologists.
    A few people also ask if he is acting alone or for some non-SCN agency. Any truth to that?

    I am just thinking loud here… I have no facts just assuming…

  137. Its just so convenient to “look away”

    To use the qoute Marty used before for a post.

    When Hitler attacked the Jews I was not a Jew, therefore I was not concerned. And when Hitler attacked the Catholics, I was not a Catholic, and therefore, I was not concerned. And when Hitler attacked the unions and the industrialists, I was not a member of the unions and I was not concerned. Then Hitler attacked me and the Protestant church — and there was nobody left to be concerned. (as printed in The Congressional Record, October 14, 1968)

    – Martin Niemoller

  138. Question to Marty and Mike Rinder:

    You both know Dear COB very well. Did you ever hear him approving of an abortion? Something like: “Jane aborted and stays in the SO. Great!”

  139. Fidelio,

    Breaking bread with family and friends are nice constructive “breaking” as a suggest to my buddy Sarge… 😉

  140. http://www.youtube.com/user/Voiceless8C#p/a/u/0/eKxrzFvKM94

    Voiceless8C — 23 mei 2008 —

    Dear Scientology Child,

    We are sorry. We didn’t know any better at the time. We failed you. There is no justification for what you have gone through, there is no Overts and Withhold list that can make things better, no Lower Conditions that can change the past.

    These messages are for you.

    “As for me, and my children: they are both dead. Enforced abortion. I was married at the time. There was no real reason to abort. I did it for the Sea Org. So I could stay.

    I would have a 14 year old and a 6 year old now.”

    “After I got declared she got hounded by the Org to disconnect from me – she works for a Scn run company and all of her friends where “in”. So, she lied and said she disconnected. She lies to the company she works for when she comes to visit me. She doesn’t keep my address in her cell phone or in her house, in case one of her churchy friends gets nosy and finds it. She still has a few churchy friends and still works for a Scn run company, but she’s slowly getting away from all of that.”

    “I would like to apologise to my four children.

    To my eldest for my not being strong enough to be your real “Mum” and for being pressured into staying on staff instead.

    To you all I apologise for all the times I did not really hear you. For the times I translated your words into the language of Scientology instead of really hearing what you said.

    For the times I did not see you, seeing instead “big thetans in little bodies” instead of the child you were, who needed unconditional love.

    For the times I was not there when you needed me as I tried to save the world elsewhere.

    For not keeping you safe from the influences that led to conflicting views on drugs, authority and approval, (you will know what I mean.)

    For subjecting (some of) you to the chaos of the Scientology school as it was established and those gut wrenching times.

    You are all terrific and no matter any differences of opinion we may have, I love you.”

    “There is a lot I would like to say about my children who endured the Sea Org for 12 and 13 yrs of their lives.

    It took me three years to get them out after I myself left – three years of fear and threats and lies. I’m only sorry I didn’t succeed when I originally left. I could have stopped the cadet org abuse from ever occurring.

    I found out after my children had grown how they were beaten and sexually abused while in the Cadet org. I wish I had known.

    For everything that happened to them – at the beach when they were forcefully taken from me – to their stint in the Cadet org in PAC I am so truly sorry. They won’t talk about that time in their lives. I don’t blame them.

    I won’t go into details – many things happened and many are bad. They are free and they are living their lives happily now.

    For that I thank God!


    “My Son, I am sorry for the neglect I subjected you to while I was on staff. You deserved my love and care, instead you received ethics handlings and fear. Please forgive me.”

    “I was going through a very serious crisis, and concerned that I might be dangerous to myself and others, and the Church fed this idea by declaring me a “Suppressive Person”. I was compliant with this, and decided it would be best for you if I left, and if I didn’t insinuate myself into your lives. I thought it would be best for you if I cut the cord…
    Nitza, I recently watched the movie “Hard Problems”, and it was wonderful to see you again, even if through a movie camera.
    Zeb, I’m very proud of you for your success, and glad to see that you have remained the person I remember so well from your early years, although you’ve obviously grown a lot and deepened into the man you’re becoming.
    Gabby, what can I say. A daughter is famously the apple of a father’s eye, and you are no exception, for me.
    I am very sorry for my poor judgment being involved with that Church, and words cannot express how sorry I am that you paid the price for my ignorance and poor judgment when I was a teen parent.
    Kevin G. Brady”

    “My children suffered at great lengths at the hands of their Scientology Step-dad. He molested them and justified it by saying they were “old souls” and were responsible for their own condition. My youngest was 3 years old. The Church of Scientology did not want me to turn him in…… He gets out in 5 years after nearly doing 20 years. Somehow it is just not long enough.”

    Dear Scientology Child,
    We are here for you now.
    (We will not forget.)
    (We are many.)
    (We are expecting you.)

  141. Wonderful post, Marta. This says it beautifully:
    The practices of an organization are the actual organization, no matter what the aims are stated to be.

  142. Quicksilver

    That’s right … I remember sitting at that event & wondering about the upcoming power struggle.

    I could see Pat was a goner and DM had already hatched a plan and had been working on it … he could hardly wait to set the rest in motion.

  143. Chairman of the Bollocks

    What part of the word CULT do you not understand.

    You sound EXACTLY like Tomy Davis

    “Nobody put a gun to these women’s heads, so some responsibility needs to be taken for the condition they got themselves into”

    Maybe we should crown you the new “leader”of anonymous.

    This video is for your education


  144. You women are very special and wonderful Mothers. I am so grateful all of you are out.
    Thank you for telling your stories.

    DM , the clock is ticking..tic tock..

  145. COB – Obviously you were never in the Sea Org —

    Routing out is hardly a walk in the park.


  146. Chairman of the Bored

    These women made decisions that they later regretted. It’s unforunate, but it has nothing to do with Scientology.

    That’s right, it does not have anything to do with Scientology. It has to do with the hijacking and alteration of Scientology that exists as the sham “church” (cult) today. And the St. Petersburg Times did an excellent job of presenting the facts, including this differentiation, citing exactly when and how current “Management” (while pretending to be Scientology) differs from L. Ron Hubbard’s writings on the subject of children, women and families.

    A lot of women who have abortions have regrets after the fact.

    Duh. Of course. Any sentient being would have regrets. These women are doing an amazing job of taking responsibility and not remaining stuck. A huge part of being cause is recognizing other causes. I am very proud of them and admire them for not blaming themselves, for owning the decision they made, for standing before the world to won responsibiloity and — very important — for not owning other ‘s cause.

    But that’s irrelevant to the point. The cogent point of this story is that a lot of women don’t have “friends” and a “church” (to whom they look for guidance and help) putting them in the unconscionable situation of duress, i.e., having to choose between their baby or being totally alone in the world — as it what happened with these women — who were absorbed by a “system” (cult of Scio) (a totally separate thing from Scientology) as children and teens, and they were not served well.

    There is no blame or regret about this. There is only NOW. There is LOOK. There is the collected voice of aware people who dare to stand up and say “No!”

    Under the gold pomp and arrogance posing as “wealth” — the “Church” that hijacked Scientology is perpetrating abuse against children, women, and human rights. That Cult is not Scientology.

  147. Hey Chairman, I have several kids underfoot who are living proof that birth control is not 100%effective.
    You assume these ladies chose to get pregnant.Hell of an assumption!

  148. That was my experience and I agree.

  149. I mean, how are you going to have time for your kids when you don’t have enough time to get sleep for yourself?

    Then stop stealing the children’s time. The time is there, it existed before, but someone(s) by the slight of hand simply just made it disappear by adding on too many work hours, thereby creating the illusion time doesn’t exist. Maybe 18 hours isn’t enough, and should someone find a way to eliminate the need for sleep, you can be damn sure they’ll be working around the clock non-stop. Its just never enough.

    Even if you were to double SO staff, they’d still be slaving it out for 16 hour days, just like Pomerantz will still con-up the next impending catastrophe to loot the IAS pocket to the hilt, even long after no further money is required.

    Its about nothing other than perpetually gutting individuals to the max, be it their money, time, 2D, and what have you not, all under any of the various pretenses mocked up continually.

    Miscavology = Gut everyone to the limit.

    Also, if you’re being paid far less than minimum wage, how are you going to provide a high standard of living for your kids?

    The Sea Org should provide that, just like every other religious institution or business does in similar circumstances. Less than 10% of the annual IAS collection plate could pay for that.

    As regards the women who tried to have kids after the “no kids” rule, or the women who “forgot” to take their birth control without telling their husbands, well, it’s really a form of “blow” and/or unusual solution in my opinion.

    None of this would be any issue if got their ethics in on the second dynamic.

  150. You are one little sick f?***, just like your namesake.

    It isn’t about women making decisions they later regret, it is about the utter callousness and depravity shown towards women ‘in the family way’ showen by members of the Sea Organization ‘the most ethical group on the planet’ (spit)….

    It is about the use of ethics (“the greatest good for the greatest number”) as an engrammic control device …(just delete one of your dynamics….problem solved!). It is about a ‘religion’ treating women like men, not as women. When I was “on lines” the purpose of the “Church” was to “survive across all dynamics”. Not just 1.

    That you come across as an apologist for this type of behavior speaks volumes to me. Why don’t you go make an IAS donation, or something? You obviously are not on the same wavelength as others here.

  151. …plus, it handles low blood sugar and gets the metab going… you are wonderful, Sinar! 🙂

  152. September 28, 1986, as Flag Order No. 3905

  153. Suzanne,

    My heart goes out to you and arms around you.

    Thank you for sharing this.

  154. Quicksilver

    Wow Chairman … way off base.

    These women factually stated what happened … it sure wasn’t natter.

    It was very apparent that as each of them related their incident, you could see them look at it and the emotions come to the surface. There’s some real raw feelings there. I truly admire these gals for having the guts to ‘relive’ this horrendous moment and bring to light the lies of the church management.

    Years ago, before DM, kids had fun even though their parents were part of the S.O.. St. Hill had a great set-up, LA’s Cadet Org could have used a bit of work and a few new mattresses, but there was family time & libs and the kids had great friendships with other S.O kids.

    It was quite common to see S.O. families having lunch together on the hill by the Manor too.

  155. War and Peace

    Christie ~~

    The reason Tommy Davis says ~~
    “To the contrary, those wanting children are helped, Davis said. “They receive assistance from the church, including immediate prenatal care, medical care, financial assistance and even help in finding housing and employment upon departure from the Sea Org.”

    This is actually true NOW in Present time.
    After 25 years of forced abortions. they are running scared. For the last year or so, they have taken steps such as the above as they are terrified new parents of enforced abortion will join Marty’s blog and other sites.

    Claire Headley lawsuit has had impact and they have changed their ways.

    I am aware of current route outs that they are pampering. This is 180 degree turn around from the brutality of the last 25 years.

    The internet, sites likes this force some ETHICS to go in.

  156. Christie — with no intention to lessen what you went through one bit — but the “no NEW children” Sea Org rule occurred at Flag well before 1996.

    I remember being public and shocked that this directive had just come out. A dear friend of mine, still in, took quite a loss as she and her husband wanted children. Pretty sure it was 1986.

    IF someone got pregnant, they were sent to a Class V org. I don’t believe the pressure to abort was there – mainly people just went to lower orgs.

    For sure, it’s gotten worse and worse.

    As cults do.

    What you have done in speaking out is going to ripple throughout the scientology world.

    Like disconnection – those IN, KNOW that tom and dm are lying.


  157. Flag Order 3905-1 – April 3, 1991 – Children, Sea Org members and Sea Org orgs.pdf


  158. http://www.holysmoke.org/cos/docs/jill-graham-personnel-order.txt


    27 November 1989


    CO PAC



    Jill Graham is in violation of FO 3905 as she has had a child since
    this FO was issued, yet is still on AOLA staff.

    Per FO 3905:

    “Therefore the following policies regarding children and the Members
    are hereby established:

    1. Married Sea Org members currently posted in Sea Org orgs who wish
    to have a new child may do so on the understanding that the parents
    will be posted in a Class IV org. There is no change in their Sea Org
    member status, they simply do not work or berth in an S.O.
    installation. …”

    HCO AOLA has had more than adequate time to enforce FO 3905 but still
    has not complied to this order. The HAS and the Supercargo AOLA are
    hereby assigned the condition of Danger by the Senior PCO
    International. It is expected that they turn in their condition
    write-up to the Senior PCO International within 24 hours. Snr MAA PAC
    HFA is to enforce this order being complied to.

    Jill Graham is ordered to arrive to the Senior PCO International
    office within 24 hours. She is being assigned to the Universe Corps
    unit as a C/S.


    Authorized by


  159. Chairman – and from what position are you speaking? Experience?

    My ex-husband was trying to route out for over a year. Another friend of mine was on the decks for 9 months trying to route out.

    I wanted to have a child and I got pregnant intentionally. They were not going to let my then husband leave. Every effort was made to keep him and put him on another program and another program to make him change his mind. The only thing that could give them a deadline to let him and I go – was a pregnancy. Sorry but that was the absolute truth. Other than that we could have blown and been declared but we were trying to spare the disconnection from our families and friends.

    Nobody here is being a victim. We are sharing the truth of what happened so that others will not have to experience similar circumstances. And if you haven’t noticed that is exactly what has happened. The whistleblowing activities have resulted in the SO members being treated better. We are actually creating an effect. Kathy Reeves who is mentioned in the St. Pete Times story had a nice smooth route out. Good for her. I actually know her and I’m happy to hear it was not a traumatic experience. I hope others have the same treatment and I thank the ladies who spoke out prior to me that resulted in my route out being a little less brutal than it could have been.

  160. Thanks for this Cat Daddy … man, heavy grief on this for me. It put me right into my own situation with my 12 year old son when he was in the S.O. … something I do need to handle.

  161. Mark, Marty, Lucy & Jim,

    You bring up good points. First of all, one of the things I was ordered to do and did on a correction program was to M9 DMSMH – the original one and not altered, so am familiar with what LRH’s viewpoint on abortions and infanticide is.

    You guys are correct as I have heard LRH commenting about situations at Flag and in Pac regarding children. He was ticked off about the kids not being under control by their parents & child care not set up to raise them correctly – with the 3Rs and not into mischief and criminality.

    Also about it requiring a lot of resources and Dev T. It seemed a situation which didn’t get handled terminatedly and would rear it’s ugly head periodically. He was not against children Just the Dev-T created, but had bigger projects and priorities he was working on, like the Bridge.

    One weird comment from Shelly at one time was that she and DM had this viewpoint that you couldn’t be sure of what type of being or thetan you would get if you had a kid as a reason not to have one. Apparently one of DM’s siblings kid was in trouble at the time.

  162. “A lot of women who have abortions have regrets after the fact.”

    Yeah, usually because they have taken up with an abusive liar and would not be willing to bring a child into such a relationship. In such a situation, if you really believe that this abusive relationship is essential to your survival and it would be a huge overt to humanity to leave then the “correct” decision would be an abortion.

    Oh yes it sometimes takes YEARS to realise just how duped you were, but the regrets, you delude yourself… those don’t come later. And simple regrets are the easiest part, you obviously have no understanding at all how an abortion affects a woman. And betrayal from her group is the icing on the cake.


    Some women simply can not tolerate the pill and other forms are unreliable. Saying women get pregnant to get out of the sea org is just assinine. Again, YOU DON’T GET IT.

    If I were you I’d just lay low on this hornets nest…

  163. I remember Jeannie becoming pregnant.

    And the amount of animosity she had to endure because of it.

    I also remember quite a few people in management, especially the Finance Office, hoping/assuming she would miscarry because of her age.

    They wanted that kid to die.

    So that business as usual could occur.

    Jeannie and David should take a look at this.

  164. Jim,

    Could not put it into better words, my sentiments exactly.

  165. “But I’m not surprised DM doesn’t like children – he’s clearly terrified of ANYONE taller than he is.”


  166. Looking in-

    I agree with Heather. I don’t see anything wrong with Lucy’s post nor do I see anybody pulling out a “victim card”. The stories are true. Not twisted. Other flows do exist. But in this case you are bringing up another flow on a different subject all together. But this is a story about coerced abortions not about Sunny’s out-tech. She was also my C/S at one point and I know of what you speak – but what is the point of making her wrong now? This discussion is about the abortions, and she has contributed rightfully to revealing the truth. I appreciate that.

    What happened to Lucy’s sister is what happened. The beatings that Mike and Marty have told about – are what happened.

    How is one story more of a “victim card story” than another.

    People exposing DM’s crimes are taking responsibility. Their own crimes should not be denied if they are relevant to the discussion, true.

    And on that note, Sunny even admitted in the story to having talked to another woman about getting an abortion. Seems like she has admitted to some of her failings – right there.

  167. I do not have children, but I do love and support them. It pains me to see such a situation as this.

    The children suffer. Any child suffering is a crime, a travesty and an outright intolerable situation, nomatter what social stratta they exist in.

    I hope solutions are put in place to prevent this, and the better angels of our nature prevail when it comes to the welfare of children, nomatter where they are.


  168. martyrathbun09

    Christie, You are damn right. And well done to you and the others who made it happen. You are CAUSE.

  169. Victoria,

    You make me want to stroll into HCO and ask

    “People, how the fuck does having a baby translate to out-ethics?”

    Apologies for the crude language, but there’s no other words that fit.

    I think I’ll have to stop reading this post because it’s making me very “sudden”. I’m male and really have no idea what having an abortion is like, all I know is that the thought of a kid of mine being aborted sends me into a rage – not quite a violent rage, but close. I do have two kids, both times being a dad was a conscious decision, for the right reasons.

    But coercing women like this …. maybe I should go to bed now and calm down.


  170. Suzanne,

    Thank you for sharing your story. I’m truly sorry for your loss.

    Just Me

  171. martyrathbun09

    Wait till you see tonight’s story – you are prescient.

  172. Sam,
    I’m with Marty and Jackson.

  173. M,
    God has blessed us with Christie. Wow. Ineffable strength and beauty. Wow.

  174. “It doesn’t matter who my father was; it matters who I remember he was.”

    – Anne Sexton

  175. Chairman,

    I have one question for you:

    Are you a parent?

  176. I am being presumptious in thinking you are of the male persuasion.

    So here is one for both

    “The debt of gratitude we owe our mother and father goes forward, not backward. What we owe our parents is the bill presented to us by our children.”

    – Nancy Friday

  177. Ditto on 38 Special on Daisy’s.

  178. DM uses the Stalin school of management. Like Stalin used Molotov in the partitioning of eastern europe after WWII. His is the ne plus ultra of irresponisbilty and cowardice.

    Did you ever hear him try to stop them?

  179. Claire,
    I’ll testify too. You can reach me.

  180. lulu belle, what was Jeannie’s age ?

    Christie do you have a date with that FO 1996 ? And a Title ?


  181. Crashing Upwards,
    Respectfully, NO, the Sea Org is not an idea whose time has come and gone. Rather, the Sea Org needs to embrace ALL dynamics and BE all dynamics. That idea is the future. It can’t be anything else or it won’t achieve its star high goals.

  182. W & P,

    Yes – exactly. I agree and I know of some of these route-outs that are going smoothly. I’m very glad to hear of it, and as I said in another comment I thank those before me who spoke out because mine could have been even worse than it was (which was pretty bad), had those ladies not stepped up and told the world what was happening.

  183. Marty,

    It’s your blog. But if you’re making a list of people you’re considering routing off the blog, would you please add Chairman of the Bored to that list.

    He doesn’t deserve to be here.

    Just Me

  184. Your Humble Servant

    See my post, below. We DO know.

  185. Suzanne,
    As WH, I apologize to you. Sincerely.

  186. Great video Cat Daddy and as Anons would say “This is Why!”

    What strikes me with DMs policy is that if you truly want to change the planet first you have to start at home and “be the change you want to acheive”.

    This is one of my favorite songs by Crosby, Stills and Nash. Children represent the future and if you truly want to make changes first you need to set the example and provide the fertile ground for the next generation. AT what price is ones eternity worth?

    Much respect to these fine ladies who have decided to share a very private and personal matter with us to spare others the anguish they suffered.

  187. Marta,
    Amazing post. Thank you.

  188. What Christie says is so true. I was Costumes at Gold in the 80’s. In the late 80’s, the Make-up chief, Linda Schweikert (aka Maks), became pregnant. Maks kept the pregnancy hidden until beyond the point for abortion. When it was found out, Sharder Starkey, then a Cine Messenger, came storming thru Costumes and on into Make-up, slamming shut the adjoining door. He proceeded to scream obscenities at Maks, denigrating her for becoming pregnant. Maks tried to get him to calm down, citing Dianetics and care for the pregnant mother in the interest of the future child’s sanity. Sharder would have none of it. Maks and her then husband Paul did route out of Gold and were sent to Santa Barbara to be posted at the org there. I did have occasion to meet Maks again later a couple times. She’d had a beautiful daughter.

    I must say when I found out Maks was pregnant, I was shocked and at that time felt confused – as what she said about Dianetics, I recognized as true. However, I also felt no remorse for her as it was plainly understood policy at the time at the Int Base, SO members were not to get pregnant!!

  189. Chairman,
    You crass, spineless little fucking jellyfish fuck face. Never, ever cross my path in the real world you cunt. Ever.

  190. Yes, Marta, beautiful.

    “The practices of an organization are the actual organization, no matter what the aims are stated to be.”

    – or:

    “The means ARE the end.”

  191. Chairman of the Bored

    axiom38 said: “Hey Chairman, I have several kids underfoot who are living proof that birth control is not 100%effective. You assume these ladies chose to get pregnant.Hell of an assumption!”

    FWIW, some of these woman actually did stop taking birth control without telling their husbands. Listen to the videos again. But you’re right, no form of birth control is 100% effective. However, one should only have intercourse if you actually to intend to have kids, irrespective of Scientology. In other words, the only truly safe form of “birth control” is celibacy. Are you saying that these women didn’t understand that?

    I’m not in agreement with these women being pressued to have abortions, and Tommy Davis is obviously a liar, however that’s later on the chain.

  192. I spoke with a former FBO CLO WUS (?) back in 1993-1994 who told me then that he had done a cost analysis in 1978-1979 that showed it cost approximately USD $60,000 (at that time) to raise a child from infant to 6 years old at which time they might become a cadet.

    I would say that cost has more than doubled by now. But this number was being used a baseline for determining whether a staff member was producing enough to warrant the org supporting their children rather than offloading the staff and their child.

    Enter into this equation that the FBO’s were effectively stealing from the local SO tech delivery orgs by sending something like 80%-90% of the GI uplines, and it should become clear why the S.O. Orgs couldn’t support families with children any more.

    Michael A. Hobson

  193. WH – Ok cool. We are both saying the same thing. In 1986 they were sent to Class V orgs to work as staff members there. In 1996 they were booted out completely and became public, no longer SO members in any capacity.

  194. Just Me — I agree with your sentiment and yet I would hate to see this blog become only “us”

    CoBored, Snowhite and a few others help show contrast and actually bring out the best in us.

    I use them to see if I can communicate without rage and the desire to reach through the computer screen and rip their thoats out.

    I feel I’m making progress.

    On the other hand – they are still spinning their web tighter and tighter and tighter until it’s so tight there is no space to breath.


  195. Lookingin
    Thanks for forwarding the C of M line ‘playing the victim card’ You missed the point. Part of telling the story is taking full responsibility for others who cannot tell theirs for fear that they will be attacked by OSA or by people like you. Part of it is protecting fellow Sea Org Members past and present and taking a stand simply because it is the right thing to do.
    OK I’m off to shine my halo now.

  196. Dear Jane OT,

    Anyone who worked any where near DM knew his views regarding children and women being pregnant. He could be very, very deragatory.

    When I was four months pregnant he screamed at me and then had my picture taken.

    He was the most senior person at the Int Base and he knew everything that went on at the Base.

    I the first four months of my pregnancy I got an average of 4-5 hours of sleep a night. The order for Gold staff to not go to bed at night came from DM and this was because Tom Cruise was coming to the base!

    A Sea Org executive is responsible for his staff and their welfare. That shows you what DM’s tone level is: 1.1

  197. WH,

    Thanks for the reminder to inhale, exhale, in, out. I sometimes need that.

    But when someone doesn’t even have the ability to view another viewpoint other than their own — as in there are no other possible viewpoints — that’s not something I want near my breathing space.

    (In, out, in, out …)

    Just Me

  198. Lookingin –

    Ok, I’ll bite.

    That “victim card” bullshit is exactly what keeps some from speaking out. They don’t want to come across as a victim.

    Speaking out about it though is the ONLY way something will change. That there are emotions connected to it is a given. That we regret that we fell prey to the utter insanity is pretty evident. Would I let it happen now? No fucking way in hell. My eyes are open to the hell that has become of the cult of Miscavige. Now we need to get everyone else to open their eyes and unless we tell these “horror stories” that will never happen. People need a jolt of reality. That is what those videos are intended to accomplish.

    Bottomline, PLEASE do not say someone is playing victim by posting or communicating their story as that only keeps people quiet.

  199. And then there is Jim —

    Be happy chairman that as yet, the technology doesn’t exit to reach through the computer …

    Cause you’d be feelin’ two pair of hands


  200. LEAVE!

    Just Me

  201. Thanks Christie — I have been so utterly upset by this whole thing that I MISSED completely the part about being booted out completely.

    Horrible. For a SO member to be put in that position is utterly completely horrible.

    You are a brave woman. I appreciate even more what the three of you have done in coming forward. Thanks for sticking with me on this thread til I finally GOT IT!!


  202. CD,

    I’m guessing Jeannie was in her 40’s. Not sure of her exact age. She audited me briefly while she was pregnant (at the ITO) when she was on her routing form to be sent out to Cinn. She was very pregnant (showing) and still had a proud attitude. I was very impressed with her.

    I don’t have an exact date or title on the FO. However it was in early 1996, prior to March. The command teams fired out in March 1996 and we took the issues with us to the various continents.

  203. Heather and Christie, Didn’t intend the effect created- apologies for that. It was the link below re Sunny’s personal story that got me going. Believe me, Lucy’s story is about as sad and unfortunate as it gets re what has occurred in the subject under discussion and no criticism was intended.
    After I said what I said earlier, even with all the tech references and understandings that I have, I was left with the question of how does such cruelty become the accepted activity within a group of people that I would consider to be of a finer fabric than most on this planet? And how do we ensure it does not happen again in whatever form?

  204. The Pope in Rome has some vacancies.

  205. crashingupwards

    Jim, I appreciate your loyalty to the dream. The question is what is/are the best vehicles to achieve it? If you ask a builder whether he would rather rehab an older home with lots of issues or build a new one, the answer is usually to build new. Its easier, faster, cleaner, less headaches, looks better and lasts longer. And you end up with exactly what you want.
    So I would respectfully say the DREAM is not an idea whose time has come and gone, just one of its vehicles.

  206. I guess one simple way to grasp this is to try to understand how having a child ever became an harmful act, when it is a NATURAL part of life? Because dm is running on inverted dynamics, which is described in the 2D Handbook. And he has run his inversions into the church, and thanks to this and other websites, his days are coming to an end as sure as the sun rises and sets.

  207. Sarge; Redefinition of sudden.

  208. Don’t believe you’ve left any room for misduplication there Jim!

  209. Some of these women only had “scientology” educations…..given the young age they were involved. Not everyone has the benefit of “sex education” or “family planning”……I bet there isn’t even a checksheet for it….who would be responsible for that in the Cadet org?

  210. “… one should only have intercourse if you actually to intend to have kids, irrespective of Scientology.”

    Hey, now there’s some enlightened thinking!

    IMHO you are one rather stifled human being!!

  211. “one should only have intercourse if you actually to intend to have kids, irrespective of Scientology. In other words, the only truly safe form of “birth control” is celibacy. Are you saying that these women didn’t understand that?”

    Cowboy wisdom: If you find yourself deep in a hole stop digging.


  212. Regardless, they got pregnant,and were treated inhumanely!
    Think I’ll have to side with Jim Logan here COB!

  213. Jim and others: I understand your anger, but this is just a person with a viewpoint. Maybe it’s wrong, maybe they stated it wrong, but whatever, it’s just an opinion, and that can change. Really, the world is watching. Let’s set a good example and act like professionals. Surely we can tolerate a little bullbait?

  214. By the way I was on birth control. Remind me to lodge a complaint with pfizer.

  215. Saw Miscavige yell and scream at a women he knew to be pregnant and order her punished for having the audacity to retain her child. Washington D.C., winter of 1990.

    Haydn James

  216. Thank you to everyone for the kind words and support (well almost everyone lol).

    It is having the support of many that makes it “safe” for us to speak out and continue to shed light on what has become of the cult of Miscavige.

  217. Gary Morehead aka "Jackson"

    My good Friends Mark and Jim, Both of you bring up very very good points. As for myself and my wife, when in 1994/95 we too were forced to abort, No suggestions, no chance for decisions. The decision had already been made for us. MY heartfelt plan was that my wife and I would be allowed to have our child. She would be allowed “maternity leave” to initially raise it and from there we would go daily to “Happy Valley” (Ironic name for a place that became the 2nd Hell Hole for the Int Base) and visit and raise it from there. Seperatly my wife and I were at the pinnacle of our SO careers. She was a powerhouse in Cine and I was probally the ONLY base staff member ever to be brought up in front of the group during one of the Base Staff meetings and promoted to an SO Officer by David Miscavage himself for saving the life of a local citizen and for the base being as safe as it was for the staff.. I was convinved that our very publicly known production, longevity and loyalty as Int Base Staff Members would overcome the slighest concern for possible desire to “having other fish to fry” because we became pregnant. I was delusionally certain we would stay and have the family we so desired. Having jumped ship from my relationship with my wife to the group to secure her into going to Riverside for “the Cycle” was the biggest and only crime I committed while I was on staff. I am still disgusted with myself to this very second for having contributed to the groups effort and abandonding my wife like I did. Jim, I myself was convinced that adjustments would occur to make it possible to have a family – convinced, convinced CONVINCED. When that obvious reality settled in THAT is when I firmly decided to leave the SO. Anyway, thanks for listening and thanks for being such great men and friends of mine in helping yourselves, ME and others break free of the disgusting imorality we withnessed and were forced to indulge in until we couldn’t take it anymore. The ladies who have all spoken out – I say to you.. Thank you so very very much for doing what you have done. It is so very hard to state exactly how thankful I am for your efforts. My intense and unconditional love goes out to each and every one of you! — Jackson

  218. COB,
    FUCK YOU and your backpedalling bullshit. My wife got pregnant twice, ON birth control. Someday, I pray, you will encounter life. As it stands now, you are a clueless vapid puke. FUCK OFF.

  219. Thanks for your kind words everyone. I almost didn’t post it as it’s pretty personal – but figured now was the time to do it if I was ever going to. Mostly, I wanted to give support to the brave women who came out on the SP Times. What they went through was far worse than my ordeal. Love to you all.

  220. Tommy Davis is “letter of the law” lying with expert OSA legal advice how to lie.

    I agree with Fidelio, Davis’ statements show he is efforting to apply the law to the letter.

    When police wish to bust someone, they apply the law to the letter to do so.

    When Tommy Davis/Davis Miscavige lie, they do that lying to the letter of the law.

    “Letter of the law liars” is what they are.


  221. Redneck Thetan

    You go Sam! I think a fine follow-up for Anderson Cooper would be a panel debate between Tommy, you and a few other people. I’d say DM, but we all know he’s too chickensh!t to actually face anyone who’s not kissing his ass. And if Tommy could answer a question in a panel discussion without screaming a la Sweeney, I’ll eat my hat.

  222. Gary Morehead aka "Jackson"

    Jim, and here I was trying to form a short concise statement about this asshole’s statment! I can not top what you just said as that stated it exactly what I was trying to say. Thank you! You wanna know “sudden” dude… cross my path and you will experience the 911 system if you haven’t already! That’s if anyone around would care to call that number after the beat down. You just said some fightn words! – Gawd you disgust me. Thanks again Jim. — Jackson

  223. In the book “The Original Thesis” there used to be a chapter in the back with case histories having to do mostly with abortions. In that chapter LRH makes it clear how destructive abortions can be. You really get the idea that LRH would NEVER EVER suggest or justify an abortion UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES.

    This chapter no longer exists in the newly released DM version of the book…..

  224. Good job! That there is some first rate cussin’! And most appropriate at that.

  225. Fedelio’s point I think is a VERY important sign of when they lie.

    when their lies sound so perfectly in keeping with the law, that is the telltale sign they likely are just blatantly lying, sadly.

    The antithesis of The Way to Happiness, which to me, as now an atheist, is the best thing I retain from Scientology, specifically Precept 20, my favorite, the golden rule precept which also points to how to build one’s character.

    Anyways, this entrenched lying problem, right now, when Tommy Davis is so cautiously letter of the law in his pronouncements of what they do, supposedly, correctly, are admissions and rewriting of history of where they did the opposite.

    I’m glad so many women tell the truth, thankyou all.

  226. Splog, I just wrote you the entire story.

    It is SO private but it felt good, the idea of just getting it OUT OF MY HEAD.

    I deleted it by accident. So I’ll leave it till some time when I don’t feel so sudden.

    But thank-you for your response, I admire your passion. It really helps repair an ARC break when you don’t feel wrong anymore for trying to do the right thing.

    That’s why these women are brave, it is a very difficult story to tell and you have to be strong enough to be completely open and vunerable. That takes true courage, and I know these women did it because it’s worth it to them if they can help another avoid such a horrible situation. Or even make someone like me not feel so alone. As you may have guessed, when a situation like this comes up you are not allowed to talk to any “unauthorised” terminals about it because it might enturbulate them. That means no friend to talk to at all.

    Thank-you Laura, Sunny and Claire for speaking out.

  227. That’s obnoxious. I came across a promo the other day and it had some definition of 2-D in it that I just felt sure wasn’t what my old tech dictionary said.

    I haven’t done much research on the specific alterations to the tech because it just pisses me off no end!

    I do remember reading about what LRH had to say in DMSMH about abortion and admiring my own mother for not caving in, since she was unwed when I was conceived.

    But later I was asked to disconnect from her because she was an “SP”.

    I didn’t do it but oh boy, we’re off to the races on this 2-D ball of wax.

    And it’s geting comical with poor little Tommy, all he does all day is write statements that say “That isn’t true”!

    I notice they have cut back on the accusations that all of us are just random disgruntled ex- members.

    He reads like he’s on the defensive… hmmm, wonder why that would be?

  228. Redneck Thetan

    I’m so sorry that happened to you and your baby, Suzanne. I lost my son at 24 weeks and almost died too. That was so horrific that I can’t even imagine how much the hell that you went through beforehand made it so much harder to recover. Bless you for speaking out.

  229. It was in the early 80’s because that is when I was audting my little cadet org PC. I mentioned she lived at the HI and had to pick the roaches out of her newborn baby sisters mouth at night. She often wasn’t sessionae due to that and the fact that she was in charge of 35 kids as a nanny at the cadet org. (She was 12.)

    Frankly, I was relieved to hear about the new policy for these reasons, HOWEVER, it was a completely surpressive and degraded answer to the real outpoints. Overworked SO members and substandard housing and living conditions for them in general… meanwhile auditing and training prices for public were going UP 10% a month… it was easy to see that money was not being spent for the betterment of staff.

  230. TheEmperorIsNaked

    So you read this far down this thread and your concern is a little emotion got stirred up and “people might be watching”? Are you serious?

    The chairman “viewpoint” was pathetic and on a very emotional issue. Most of us are like Sarge and looking for something not too valuable in our domicile to “bust up a little”. I admire and am slightly jealous of the creativity in Jim’s “concise” statement. I’ve come up with some good ones – but not that good.

  231. Chairman of the Bored

    Wow, what’s with all the swearing and hateful comments? Apparently a lot of people are very emotional on this topic. I also think a lot of people are directing their anger at me because of THEIR situations in the Sea Org, which I had nothing to do with. Remember, I’m not the big bad guy here. I never ordered or forced anyone to have an abortion. At the end of the day, people are responsible for the conditions they’re in; there’s no way around it. And everyone’s in a condition; there’s no such thing as “no condition”. Sorry, but that’s the naked truth of it, and there’s a lot of LRH that will back me up on that.

    I’m pro choice in that I’d rather have it safe and legal than not. FWIW, I also never abused anyone in the Sea Org or since. I never even yelled at another Sea Org member, though I was encouraged too. That sort of thing was too out of valence for me.

    I feel sorry for these women to be backed into a corner, but they should have thought about that before having intercourse. Really. They are ways to pleasure you partner that don’t involve intercourse. Anyone who choses to have intercourse is making a concious decision to have children as birth control is not 100% effective, it only reduces the risk. Similarly, condoms only reduce the risk of catching an STD; they don’t eliminate it. Now, for a woman to stop birth control and not tell her husband, that’s really playing with fire. And the husbands also have some responsbility in all this too. I hope I’m only stating the obvious.

    BTW, since some people asked, my route out process from INCOMM only took three weeks, sec checks included. I did light MEST work while on the decks. I didn’t blow; I routed out standardly. I didn’t have an SP declare or even a freeloader debt, and the MAA even wrote a letter of recommendation to help me get a job in the wog world, which I did. I have absolutely no stuck attention on the Sea Org, and I think the route out process had something to do with it.

    Anyway, enough said on this topic. I didn’t intend to start a flame war, but to merely express an opinion. Peace out everybody. Flourish and prosper.

  232. Christie,

    I was on the Int RPF out at Happy Valley in Jul 96, and sometime either later in 96 or in 97, the “new” RPF Flag Orders of 1997 discontinued RPFers having family time AT ALL.

    When I first got to the Int RPF, in 1996, the kids of Int RPFers who lived at the other part of the Happy Valley Ranch, would come over Sunday mornings to visit with their parents who were on the RPF for Sunday morning until just before noon Sunday.

    After the 1997 RPF Flag Orders came out, it stated NO FAMILY TIME AT ALL FOR RPFers, period, NONE AT ALL.

    Then I noticed ironically, in November 2000, when I transferred to the PAC RPF, (I myself was a glutton for hard gruelling dirty manual labor, so I myself didn’t consider my 7 years on the decks and RPF as degrading at all, I loved it, it was an absurd challenge to me), when I got demoted/transferred to the PAC RPF in Nov 2000, I noticed the OSA staff on the PAC RPF violated the 2d rules of the 1997 RPF Flag Orders the most. Spouses and kids of OSA Int RPF members on the PAC RPF just routinely snuck visits in the hallways close to the mess hall, and OSA Int RPFers were seeing their kids, seeing their spouses, all in violation strictly of those new 1997 RPF Flag Orders. OSA Int staff were the MOST violators of the anti family rules of the Flag Orders of 1997 for the RPF!!!! I reasoned to myself that the OSA staff with more outside world contact due to their posts, simply took more the outside world viewpoint and did the right thing.

    And even, in 2002, close to when I finally got okay to get OUT of the Sea Org, Lynn Farney’s wife, who was on the RPF, she STILL was seeing her kids in the hallways on Sunday, when the kids came in from the PAC Kids Ranch.

    The point is inside the movement, over the 27 years I was in the Sea Org, there were lots of dynamic urges trump the damn rules and idiotic destructive non survival orders.

    It’ll always be that way, no counter survival rules will win over pro survival human nature, in my opinion.

    The Sea Org would have to redo this whole area of children, and make parenting a survival option.

    Imagine Sea Org kids being allowed normal parents to help them grow up?

    Sea Org recruitment would be solved LONG duration, sheesh!!


  233. Redneck Thetan

    I have another question: are they a woman?

  234. Laura,
    You have spoken for so many, bravely and with such grace. Thank you again.

  235. martyrathbun09

    Just like Dave and Tommy, Little Lord Faulteroy, never done anything wrong in your entire life. Not even have sex. Hell, are you the Virgin Mary?

  236. Redneck Thetan

    I think you accidentally stumbled upon the wrong blog. Do a Google search for “Quiverfull” and you’ll be in the right place for that viewpoint.

  237. Cured Robot

    I engaged in the activity of coercing an abortion on juniors so as to keep them in tow on valuable posts (at a lower SO service org ) , we were at our wits end at the prospect of losing such valuable people to a failing org somewhere around the planet due to children of all things. All to DM’s perverted policy, we should never have been placed in a position to resort to such means to keep them, they already had children in the SO while LRH was in command and never were required to resort to such horrible means. Ah..ha..later man did I pull in my motivator…we got PG…and had to do the deadly deed Years, years and years of grief ensued over that deadly act …eventually moved on but it took a long, long time and to this day, am regretful over that horrible coerced action. To be honest I could have said no but the pressure was too intense. In PT I have a child that I would die for..and when my kid was being recruited for the SO, whom has a strong family dynamic of wanting children in this life, upon finding out that this was not in the picture, ran the other way…f …that B/S. God did I enjoy that F finger being pointed in DM’s direction! The point is, none of this mentality was there until DM’s reign, children were as natural as the night is day and we would never have dreamed of interfering with this dynamic had it not been pushed down through the ranks…those ranks that followed the lead of DM.

  238. However, one should only have intercourse if you actually to intend to have kids, irrespective of Scientology. In other words, the only truly safe form of “birth control” is celibacy.

    I think those might be DMs sentiments exactly.

    That’s why he’ll not only split up, but agitate couples into divorce by physically placing them out of contact. When you see husband and wife split apart for many years, thousands of miles away, to “save the planet”, this is not real life nor livingness. Some cases may be valid, but the 2D well-being of the overwhelming majority is deliberately being neglected.

    SO lives are of no importance to him, they are just tools utilized to maintain his imaginary power and pretense he’s Mr. Scientology. Its really just all about himself. The dynamics of other people do not exist.

    No wonder he’s redefined the original definition of the 2nd. dynamic.

    But first and foremost, Dave is also a bot to himself … lol

  239. TheEmperorIsNaked

    Ah! Thanks, I get the “Bored” now. No life, kind of like a robot. OK, I guess that is a choice too. But is it working for you – since you have to come to blogs like this and stir things up (but safely and anonymously)?

  240. Your communications are received and understood. Please read mine again-she (Sunny) trashed MY child and I think she is suppressive, or chose to wear that beingness while in the SO. I am on your side. And you have my respect.

  241. WH, 🙂 You’re welcome. Although I wasn’t one of the three women in the story, I did share my story in earlier media. Much Love to you and thanks for contributing here.

  242. COB, if you’re routing out was smooth sailing it means you never fought back against immense suppression. That’s not something to brag about, being a wallflower in the fight to KSW. Hopefully you plan to step it up now.
    Regarding you’re “pro-choice” viewpoint, that’s fine but don’t call it Scientology. For the first time in Scientology’s history, Tommy Davis took a public stance contradicting the founder’s viewpoint (up to the day he died – see Mission Earth). And he did so because he was cornered into protecting DM’s high crimes and so forced to spit on LRH’s reputation, and for no other reason.
    Religions are expected to be pro-life and the public don’t want to hear about a religion that kills unborn babies. There’s plenty of evidence including hyperactive brain activity and rapid heart rate in the baby as early as the first and second trimesters when the knife goes in. I can link youtube videos if you want.

    LRH policy and LRH’s actions on this subject are clear, and DM cross ordered this because he knew best what to do with SO pregnancy. You say nobody should be having sex except to make babies but what about The Way to Happiness? What about the 2D definition including the mandate from the dynamic force to have sex outside of just making babies as part of pleasure attainment?

    Here’s an article which makes me fall down on the pro-life side. I’m for whatever laws cause less abortions, and so a pro-life law is what’s called for:

    “WASHINGTON, D.C. – Laws preventing abortion will not only dramatically reduce the total number of abortions, but also the number of women and babies killed by either legal or illegal abortion, according to a report released by the Horatio R. Storer Foundation.

    “This report carefully and clearly debunks the myth that women will die if abortion is no longer available,” said Cynthia McKnight, author of the report and a specialist in state legislative issues at the Storer Foundation. “Medical progress in treating complications, not legalization of abortion, accounts for the enormous drop in maternal abortion deaths from the 1940s to the 1970s.”

    The report, Life Without Roe: Making Predictions About Illegal Abortions, was released Wednesday, July 1, by the Storer Foundation, an educational foundation dedicated to examining issues related to life and death and affiliated with the National Right to Life Committee.

    The report, both historical and forward-looking in its scope, examines previous studies and statistics on the number of illegal abortions before Roe v. Wade and the number of maternal deaths (deaths of mothers) from legal and illegal abortion to provide a scientific framework for predicting “life without Roe.”

    The report provides the basis for estimates that there were a mean of less than 100,000 illegal abortions annually in the years before Roe v. Wade, far fewer than the 1 million repeatedly claimed by abortion advocates.

    “Today, there are 1.6 million abortions each year – 16 times as many as in the years before legalization,” McKnight noted. “Even assuming an increased risk from illegal abortions, that means that the total number of women dying and being hurt by abortion would be less in a post-Roe America with protective laws than it is today.”

    When you come back next lifetime, because of the pro-abortion laws, you’ll have a 1 in 3 chance of being killed before birth. We need more bodies on earth, it’s vastly underpopulated.

  243. COB,

    I’m really glad you had such a lovely time routing out of the Sea Org after such a wonderful Sea Org experience where you remained mild mannered at all times. That’s superb news. It’s funny, but I don’t recall even LRH describing the Sea Org in such gentle terms? Anyone else?

    So if you have no stuck attention on the whole ordeal, what are you doing frequenting Marty’s blog? Just wasting away the otherwise idle evenings that you could be spending doing some other more pleasurable activity? Like polishing up on your fiction writing skills, maybe?

  244. It wouldn’t cost them hardly anything if they decided to do what LRH did. Send them to be class V staff.

  245. Jim and Jackson, good job cussing out and threatening the Chairman. The next step is to hit him in the face. Then all you need is a pair of elevator shoes and you’ll be ready to take over as COB of the RTC.

    Emperor, you could learn from Beebercat’s attitude. He’s 100% correct. People ARE watching, and comments like Jim and Jackson’s give people like me yet more reason to be as wary of the Independent movement as we are of the current Church.

    Meet the new boss, same as the old boss.


  246. LOL Chairman of the Bored,

    At the end of the day, people are responsible for the conditions they’re in; there’s no way around it.

    …And it’s wonderful to be wonderful, as many people here are. 🙂

    And everyone’s in a condition; there’s no such thing as “no condition”. Sorry, but that’s the naked truth of it,

    LOL what are you apologizing for? As a covert way to imply that someone might disagree with being fully responsible for one’s own condition? Top of the line responsibility here… great people, great auditors, great lives.

    But Bored, why am I having difficulty believing your “routing out” story though?

    Maybe it’s the way you tell it — very smug and condescending — as though the whistle blowers who have come forward with nightmares are themselves screwed up, and somehow below you You sneakily imply something is wrong with anyone who has had “trouble” with the “Church” since *you* had none.

    BTW, starting a family and having children is about more than “pleasuring” one’s husband (another snide remark on your part).

    Peace out. LOL. And yes, you are totally responsible for the condition you’re in. You have my condolences and best wishes for change.

    You didn’t start a flame war, btw. Some people just had fun holding a match to your , er, hot air.

  247. Freetothink

    Christie, all I can say is I love & appreciate you for what you have done, what you are doing & what you represent.


  248. Theo Sismanides

    Stevie D, amazing! Yes this makes sense!

    “If DM believes LRH promised his return and that he will return; then in a twisted way he might consider it prudent to require abortions and the complete control of any children that he can control in his sphere of influence. As an antagonist of the second dynamic it makes sense to restrict SO members ability to find solace and relief in this wise. His inability to participate in this part of the 2D (no children) would explain his desire to create on a mest level: even using slave labor. This area of lose for him might also explain his choice of companions, ie TC, JT and KA. His perversion of LRH tech would be to make us stupid and be his sheep to be shorn.

    Herrod the Great, king of Israel at the time of Christ’s birth, and according to the Bible had all the male children under 2 slaughtered to preserve the perceived threat to his kingship. He was famous for rebuilding the temple in Jerusalem and building monuments as well as complete cities.”

    DM the Great! I never thought of it like that, but it makes sense.

  249. Ah, to be on my laptop again…not mobile! I’ve just spent 10 great days with my 3 girls and their 3 girl cousins…something I NEVER could do while on staff, at the sunny beaches near Galveston, TX!
    This article hits home so much. It is brave and heart-wrenching, I’m sure, to announce to the world something so personal that created such a blow to their marriages and personal integrity. It’s a huge slap in your face to even be discouraged from having a baby…creating your future. Sometimes women who have an abortion risk miscarriages in the future and some can’t even have babies at all afterwards.
    Insanity rolls downhill to missions on this subject too…
    You’re NOT in a lower condition by being pregnant! WRONG! (I’m fussing at myself for thinking this about myself way back when and accepting a “handling” over it just so I’d be given some breathing room from post.)
    I don’t want to offend anyone without kids but my POV is that you’re missing so much in life without them. I am grateful to have these beings in my life and do everything I can to ensure a good future for them. I think the more uptone you are, the more you want kids to complete your existence and to have all the dynamics that go along with children and neices and nephews and more people you love and create with! This is what real tech brings you as you move uptone (like me, who SWORE I would NEVER have kids prior to getting LRH) is more and more creativity on the 2D along with other Ds.
    It’s been a flustercluck in my life and LRH tech is really what pulled me out on the subject….an ongoing process of course. Gawd forbid I parent like my own did – I needed/need some good tools for this game!
    Excellent article that really just states it like it is…insane!

    Lunamoth~ Excellent point re. policy!

  250. Mike Hobson

    Hot buttons, Cold Troll.

    Bored, so this is how you remedy it, eh?

    Michael A. Hobson

  251. Freetothink

    Lucy, good for you for standing up for your sister & giving the true data about her pregnancy.

    Laura D., you are so courageous not only for telling your story but also by taking legal actions. You are right many people are being silenced by using “you come accross as a victim”. It’s despicable to use that, especially on a Scientologist because we have it engrained in us that “being a victim” is “downtoned” & “shameful”. It’s clearly a control mechanism. It’s been used by many for a long, long time. Speaking out despite what others will think of you takes guts. Thank you!

    Lookingin, you ask “how does such cruelty become the accepted activity within a group of people that I would consider to be of a finer fabric than most on this planet? And how do we ensure it does not happen again in whatever form?”. I think a good start is to create an environement where ANYONE, whether they were on the cause or receipt point of the cruelty, can feel safe to come forward & speak out without being attacked or invalidated. That would be a very good starting point, IMHO.


  252. Freetothink

    You’re right, up until last June when I first saw the Truth Rundown I didn’t know about this & the many other abuses. I could observe several outpoints & perceive something was not right with the Church but I had no idea that all this had been going on. You are also right that I was horrified when I found out. I have now resigned in protest. The truth will set us all free. Thank you Marty for providing a safe space for all to speak.


  253. Freetothink

    The Church is DEAD!

  254. C of Bored,

    You are definitely a sexual pervert with a lot of sexual experiences, just like your master DM.
    Since you are an expert in sex, did you have an intercourse with your MAA or you used a different method in order to get a letter of recommendation? Because you are the only one routed out in 3 weeks and was easy.

    You fall under the 2.5% of the population.

  255. Stevie~I thought so much of these same things… thank you.

    I’m pissed that the tech has been so perverted!

  256. So well put, Sam! So true! Thanks!

  257. Freetothink

    Exactly! LRH is very clear & any Scientologists who has read DMSMH knows that. How can any public be reasonable & even believe TD when he says we don’t take a position on abortion?

    It is one thing to be pro-choice but to force women to get abortion by giving them a choice between either getting an abortion or being out on the street with no $, no comm lines & the guilt of having let down the group for whom they were dedicating their lives to is inhumane!

    When I first heard about this I could not believe that SO were getting abortions let alone “forced” abortions. I did my own little survey & went to 2 friends that had been in the SO. I asked innocently “have you ever heard of any women getting an abortion in the SO?” They both answered with no comm lag “it happens all the time”. I just about fell off my chair. Neither were posted at the same place.

    Why are birth control not provided? How can SO members afford birth control? How can abortion be used so casually within my Church as a mean of Birth Control? On that point of abortion alone I was ready to walk away for good.


  258. Freetothink

    Wow Suzanne, I would have thought that being pregnant while on the BC would be the best place to be. All these auditors in training & supervisors around eager to apply the Tech. What a shame! Perfect exemple of an inverted Church. Glad you have your loving family surrounding you. Thanks for sharing your story.

  259. Those videos have shown me
    1) how beautiful Scientology and Scientologists are “on the surface” (I know Laura)
    2) how DISGUSTING is what’s been on their minds = done to their minds by Scientology.
    I’m not a woman but I feel for them just like if I were one.
    Having gone through similar “common sense stoppers” I can understand how it was “ok” for them to agree to have an abortion rather than show a middle finger to this “church”.

  260. Chairman of Bored,

    It is clear that:

    You agree with the unstated but clearly defined COS policy itself


    You believe that COS Management is fully justified in creating policy that is in direct opposition to what Scn Founder L. Ron Hubbard very clearly taught.

    I need no swear words to speak to you. You are forwarding a position of simply backing up the current COS Management in creating and/or enforcing policies, regardless of Founder intention, moral grounds, and more.

    Now I say this to you: When the reformation occurred to the Catholic Church, there were those who also maintained such a position as yours. But the Catholic Church was defending a doctrine of Papal Infallibility. Are you not preaching an infallibility doctrine as regards COS Management’s right to rule Church members?

    If you do persist in this position, you will also need to recognize that created group pressure caused by higher-ups, even if not written into clear policy, can be found criminally culpable in courts of law, if human right violations occurred to ANY persons. (or MANY persons).

    Reviewing the ramifications of this may help you alter the path of your beliefs and actions.

  261. Just wanted to add re. SO members being sent to Cl V orgs…no mess hall, baby at home, wherever that is, means you have to get home during your hour or two break, feed your child and get back on post. Of course you have to pay rent and buy food, all the normal expenses people have but have never enough money to do any of it.
    This is how it went at our mission and mainly we made it because our spouses made the income elsewhere. That time each day with kids is a frantic rush…not even quality time at all! SUX

  262. If the SO was so vundabah for ya, why’d ya leave?

  263. Lucy,

    I wonder what he screamed at Katie Holmes being pregnant with Suri or what he discussed with his pal Tom Cruise about his out-ethics having fathered a child out of wedlock?

    Miscavige is just a monstrosity.

    Lucy, chapeau to you and your whole strong family!

  264. Concerned Citizen

    I too have memories of his kindness and genuine effort to help me at the lowest point in my life. I saw him help some 5 people, before I decided to step forward and ask for his help. He did help me when I desperately needed it.
    Ever after, every time someone tried to tell me RTC was corrupt I thought of him and refused to believe it, till it was him speaking out, then I had to listen. He had listened to what I had to say when it mattered most to me and then through a lot of ups and downs he never withdrew his help flow. I knew it, I could feel it.

    I remember the day I was told “Marty Rathbun turned and has gone en-theta” first I refused to believe it, then I cried and was inconsolable. His not- so-small kindness helped me so much, I decided the least I could do was listen to what he had to say. I actually thought of LRHs definition of a true friend.

    A few days later I mustered up the courage to google him and I found “The truth rundown” I knew, first because it was him speaking out and then because what he said actually answered things and made sense, that I was listening to the truth. It took some weeks before I could find myself again, but I did and I came out whole.

    Marty might have made mistakes and done things he regrets, but I know there were many people he was able to help even in the midst of that insanity and I know others know that too, even some who refuse to see the truth now. He was in fact trying to do the right thing and managed to, many times in an environment that all but prohibits it.

    He will always be a true friend to me and I hope to someday earn the status of “true friend” for him too.

  265. W&P and Christie,

    this is GOOD news. Oh, that is GOOD news.

    And even if they behave with gritted teeth and pissed on pants – they start to behave.

    So, seems that yee brave women and men made it “Too Gruesome” for the Sea Org not to start to abide by Human Rights?

    Aah, is that GOOD news!! Fidelio

  266. COB,

    so wonder what you had on them that they meant to have to treat you so well? You must have been valuable in and out to them….

  267. Concerned Citizen

    Hey Laura,

    Man you rock girl!! I’m proud of you, I remember you very fondly. Keep up the good work sister.


  268. LookingIn, thanks for responding as you have. I understand the question you are left with is a big one. In fact, I posted the following video to Jeff Hawkins’ blog just yesterday, because people there were grappling with that issue too.


    My comment about it was:

    The… video is about the Stanley Prison experiment. Former Sea Org members may find it particularly enlightening. The question that the experiment sought to explore was “What happens when good people are put in an evil place?”

  269. Concerned Citizen

    While on a mission to round up every last original anything that LRH wrote, a hughe mission I was a small part of, mind you. I ran into an issue in which LRH had an OODS item
    that said (parafrased) that any lady that got married or pregnant on the apolo in the 3 moths ahead, would be pormoted.

    So he actually encouraged it.

    I was also told a story about had there some lady wanting an abortion. She was a public and LRH was dismayed and felt she must not understand how abortions affect the the thetan. He recomended study and worldclearing and did note that she had a right to make that decision but hoped she would change her mind.

    Just for the record.

  270. Chairman,

    Get a grip. Seriously.

    There’s 60 million years of biological evolution driving the impulse to have sex and procreate – without it, you would not be here today. The female body is built like it is so that it can carry babies in the womb, then intimately care for them for the first few years thereafter. Male bodies are built the way they are so they can kick this process into first gear.

    Do you really think that a few coloured pills in a bubble pack are going to completely undo all of that? Do you have any concept of how ridiculous you sound with your counter arguments?

    Reading back through your posts on this blog entry, I consider it highly probable that you are either just trolling, or you have no reality on the second dynamic whatsoever.

    People are going to meet, like each other, hook up, have sex and rear babies. That’s how biological life on Earth works. No amount of ink on paper or dots on screens is going to change that simple fact.

    The S.O. needs to wake up to the fact that this is how it works. Railing against it is pointless, you might as well rail against gravity and protest that you want apples to fall up. Ain’t gonna happen.

  271. Concerned Citizen

    He also pretty much took out Div 6 and put an “Audio visual” system there instead of people

  272. At this point, I remind myself that there are two individuals who post as ‘Chairman of the Bored’.

    To the individual who posted this time, did you not grasp that Claire Headley wasn’t able to take birth control pills because SHE HADN’T BEEN PAID FOR MONTHS? Did you miss the fact that Laura began working for the Org as a 9-year-old, and was in the SO at age 12? Did you overlook the fact that Sunny said she knew nothing about the facts of life?

    You are one judgemental, nasty person.


  273. It is utterly appropriate that people are emotional about this topic. It is healthy, in fact.

  274. ….. and since your comments are so covertly and overtly hostile, you won’t be able to preside over bored people very much longer either. So, shake hands with your buddy COB.

  275. Victoria,

    When you’re ready, type it all up again and post it. We’ll all still be here with our acks. That’s the nice thing about acknowledgments they don’t run out or finish like candy in a jar. Love is like that too – they more you give, the more you have to give.

    Meanwhile, I need to start dealing with my own issues on this. When I said I tend to go into a rage, not all of it is proper righteous indignation – a lot of it is quite irrational too. I’d really like to maintain my general position on the subject, but to have a lot more ARC for the terminals.

    Step 1 I think is to write up my own story, recall how awesome it all was and post it as a new comment. Mine is a happy story, I’m going to treat is as a pleasure moment.

  276. COB,
    I think you have missed the giant red star outpoint in this discussion. (Hopefully you didn’t miss some of the other points.)

    THE outpoint is the suppression of the Second Dynamic. So, having missed that, your ludicrous remarks on absention are just that.

    In fact, you are simply forwarding the suppression. That is contagion of aberration.

    Now, considering both of these are amply covered in Book One, DMSMH, one is left wondering just exactly what you think the entire Sea Org is supposed to be doing.

    What paradigm have you either postulated or agreed upon? Eunuchs for the Euniverse? A civilization without war, criminality, insanity and bairns? Omit the children and save the expense so you can donate more to IAS?

    Your statements here on this thread are as callous, callow, and disassociated as the treatments described in the Opening Piece.

    They are more though.

    They are justification for the hostility and enmity leveled at the Second Dynamic under David Miscavige.

    I dare say, until you get up that scale, you won’t ever be on this dynamic and you will miss the joy, the sublime joy and freedom that is the creative vessel of life of the 2D. You’ll miss the heat. The passion, the gentle touch of complete affinity.

    You’ll miss living.

    No wonder you’re ‘bored’. In fact, I think that’s a misnomer synonymically and perhaps a plea. You may be Chairman of No Board. No wood. No cabin. No place to take a date. Puns intended.

  277. I mentioned elsewhere in this blog entry in reply to Victoria that I should tell my own story.Mine is a happy story with a happy ending and a few small bumps along the way.

    I don’t want to diminish what anyone else here had to endure – it upsets me greatly to read those stories. So please indulge me while I take a leaf from Self Analysis and relive a pleasure moment (in public to boot!).

    This is not a special story, there’s only ordinary people in it doing ordinary things. The ending is the same ending that millions of people across the planet share every single day. But it’s my story, and kinda special to me.

    I’m a late bloomer, I’d had a few girlfriends through my 20’s but nothing serious. Only when I was 31 did I meet a really nice girl that I was ready to settle down with. I had routed off staff 2 years before and she wasn’t a Scientologist but that didn’t matter. We started dating, moved in together, I proposed. One weekend with the planned wedding date still a year in the future, we visited an old school friend I hadn’t seen in years, and he had three kids.

    On the way home, I was very quiet (I was thinking to myself, you see, and coming to a conclusion). I took a deep breath and launched into one of those BIG questions:

    “Can I ask you a question, a very important question?”

    She said yes, and what came next is:

    “If I asked you to stop taking the pill, would you?”

    A really, really long silence followed; one of those silences that is just a second long but feels like millenia; followed by


    That’s when the flurry of activity started 🙂 There was no point in having the wedding in a year’s time anymore, so we moved it forward to 9 1/2 weeks in the future (that’s still a personal in-joke between us). CofS didn’t have legal marriage officer in those days, so we had two weddings in one day – the legal one and the one my good friend Riaan from Pretoria Org performed.

    Two months later, we were confirmed pregnant. Being the male, I had the hat of buying stuff – prams, cots, nappy supplies, baby bottles. I even bought a house.

    My wife had the hat of taking it easy and basking in the glow. Actually she insisted on continuing working, but she did take it easier than usual. She had her friends and family around as support and everything was perfectly … ordinary.

    There was a dramatic moment with the birth – high blood pressure, swollen feet and the baby almost didn;t make it. But he pulled through and now he’s 13 years old, one of the naughtiest shits on the planet and a chip off the old block.

    His mom and I are no longer together, but we are still great friends and talk often. And just yesterday I put him on a plane back to Cape Town and his mom after a 4 day stay with me.

    Meanwhile, I’ve since met another nice girl and we are an item. This relationship came with a ready made 6 year old daughter – talk about instant kids 🙂 We aren’t married, and I doubt we’ll ever get round to it (I’m really not into fancy ceremonies) because we have something better – we’re together.

    We have a house in Joburg, one kid who stays there permanently except when she’s with granny (have you noticed how kids and grannies gang up on parents all the time to have the kids stay overnight at granny’s house?), one kid who visits every school vacation, three dogs, one cat, two dreamed-of parrots as soon as I find a breeder, two cars and the world’s only inanimate human being made of steel – my motorbike. That thing is female in every possible way, but I digress…..

    One day those kids will grow up and the cycle of life will repeat with them in their own lead role.

    So there you have it. My story on the second dynamic. Like I said, it’s nothing special. Just ordinary people doing ordinary things – the kind of ordinary things that keep our society together. And our society is a 100% valid third dynamic and needs to be looked after.

    Without kids there is no human race. And probably no humanity either, because your kids keep you grounded. They have this wonderful knack of showing you (without knowing that they are doing it) that we are just regular folks, just like everyone else.

  278. Cured,
    .. we got PG — what’s that?

  279. Thanks Heather, and I will follow up on the link you provided.

  280. Cured Robot,

    I can only imagine what it took for you to type and post that comment, it couldn’t have been easy.

    You are one helluva courageous thetan. I wish you all the best for the future, what’s done is done and can’t be undone, but you can create for the future and make it better than the past.

  281. Cured R,
    Thank you for this post and the positive responsiblity it expresses.

    This thread, beginning with the Tom T article and the videos of these wonderful women, has helped to raise the confront of this extremely important aspect of the 3D engrams we’ve experienced.

    I’ve had to face my own overts of omission and commission on this, and some very strong emotions, and today, thanks to these courageous men and especially these women, it occurs to me, the suppression of the 2D by the 3D may very well be one of THE most significant aspects of the dwindling spiral of aberration of the Sea Org and from there spreading outward to the rest of the group.

    Someone commented earlier on John Travolta’s visit to the Int Base and his observation ‘where are the children?’

    They are gone. And with them, perhaps our integrity. Perhaps this is the mutual out rudiment that we participated in with acceptance of the very first issues on the subject in 1986.

    Perhaps this is how David Miscavige suborned us and our group and by mutual omissions and commissions we became afflicted with blindness to what followed the ‘new attitude’ of the S.O.

    The 2D was virtually and then factually , cancelled in the Sea Org. Therein, with our consent even if begrudging , and with our participation, went the integrity of the dynamics.

    I agreed. I have omitted and committed the overts.

    In the scheme of things, looking back over the past decades, 1986, after LRH was gone, marks the introduction of the overt assault on the Second Dynamic by the Third Dynamic.

    Could this be the mechanism employed, ever so ‘reasonably’ by this SP, to collapse our space and destroy our group?

    Yes. And the clue was absent. It was missing. It was the omission, the ‘not there’. That ‘gone something’ that is ‘easily the most overlooked out-point’.

    Where are the children? With them, I think now looking at this, went the Sea Org and thence the group.

    Today perhaps, we take ownership for our parts in this and clear this engram from our selves and our friends.

  282. Moving Forward

    Laura, I knew you a long, long time ago and wanted to express my sorrow for everything you had to go through. I had no idea you experienced all of this. Thank you for speaking out, I know it took a lot of guts.

  283. Boyd I am Pro-choiche. Let us not cloud the issue. And the earth is vastly overpopulated by the way.

  284. The church kills its own children. Alsoo being recruited into the Sea Org is a route to Zombification. The walking dead.

  285. Boyd H are you a Roman Chatolic or a Newborn Christian ?

  286. Your testimony is needed at various trails.

  287. Jim SO is an ad on. It has nothing to fdo with the body of knowledge that IS Scientology.

  288. Moving Forward

    The FO stating that anyone having children would be routed out (and canceling the project of sending SO members to Class V orgs if they become pregnant) came out in about November 1996. I know this because I became pregnant in 96 and had just been sent to a Cl V org when this issue came out.

    However, even prior to this, it was certainly considered unacceptable to get pregnant and almost everyone considered that you were leaving the SO anyway by going to a Class V org.

    I was completely floored by the statement Tommy Davis made that pregnant SO members are helped. This is ludicrous. Like Christie, I was completely on my own on this. I took myself (by bus) to all of the prenatal care appointments and my husband was not allowed any time off to go with me. I wasn’t given any time off, no flexible schedule, certainly no support and presents. I was resented by many people, some completely stopped talking to me. It was extremely unpleasant being pregnant in the SO. My senior yelled at me when I told her and said I should ‘just’ get an abortion. I refused. My husband was told by Hansuili Stahli (from RTC) that I should get an abortion and he even asked what trimester I was in. Every single day was unpleasant as hell.

    I was sent to a Class V org with absolutely no extra funds, just what I’d been able to save from my pay, and my husband wasn’t sent until about 2 months after I was (just weeks before I was due).

    If this is changing because of brave people like Laura and Astra speaking out, then that’s great, but Tommy’s the one rewriting history, that’s for sure.

  289. W&P and Christie, I passed a link to these comments on to Claire. She should know that she (and Marc) have already made a difference.

  290. martyrathbun09

    Jim, you are so right on with all this. Will be vindicated in spades tonight.

  291. martyrathbun09

    Me too

  292. martyrathbun09

    Splog. Man that is sweet. Thank you. However, my pick up truck is animated too. Her name is “Lucille” and she runs on love.

  293. pandorawake

    I thought Vicki and Rick opened a mission in Houston?
    I remember Vicki inviting me to come with them and I said no.
    At that point I really didn’t trust anyone and if anything blew up I had lots of friends on the outside in Dallas, nothing in Houston.

    Looking back that must have been more like the late 70’s when that was all going down. I’ve spent a lot of years trying to forget it!

    What a mess.

    Thanks for the response Sinar.

  294. COB you are dramatizing the Roman Catholic Church “Celibacy”

    Celibacy is a perversian of sexuality when it is endorsed by an organization like a church, any church.

  295. Plenum gravid. The twinkle in Daddy’s eye is growing in Mommy’s belly.

  296. This a healthy and beautiful, I wish it upon every person in the world.

  297. splog,
    I thought I was through crying on this thread and now look at me. Your pleasure moment has now become one of mine. Thank you, thank you, thank you.

    P.S. I hadn’t named my old 84 Honda 12oo but between you and Marty, my ‘rat bike’ has a name now; Bike. With a capital B. She likes it too it would appear.

  298. Cat Daddy,
    Whether you can feel it or not, I just reached out and chucked your kitty chin. Tha’s a petting. I think I can hear a purr…

  299. pandorawake

    Yes, please do write it up.
    I’d like to read it. Maybe we know eachother… I don’t remember anyone onlines named “Splog” but hey, maybe you changed your name;)

  300. pandorawake

    Jim Logan // June 13, 2010 at 11:16 pm

    You crass, spineless little fucking jellyfish fuck face. Never, ever cross my path in the real world you cunt. Ever.

    Oh deary me! This comment blew ALL my charge off Chairmans post, hahaha.
    Jim, you potty mouth:)

  301. caliwog,
    You may very well be wary of me, personally. I think it’s a good idea. You won’t be the first, not the last.

  302. Just a glimps of how it could be. From Australia as everybody understands English and not so much Dutch. I spotted a picture of Anne frank in that classroom though.

  303. “No wonder he’s redefined the original definition of the 2nd. dynamic.”

    Can you point me to a link where I can clear that up? I knew it happened but I don’t have the exact data.

  304. Concerned Citizen

    No, his point is that COB has a view point and stated it and he has a right to it and more over we can help enlighten him.

    I too felt a compulsion to slap him, but Beebercat is right, that solves nothing. Then Beebercat made the point that we should set a good example and that would include a tolerance for divergent views.

    I was as upset by COB’s statements as others, I have always been passionately opposed to abortion as I have clear memories to this day of my mother’s attempt to abort me.

    But Beebercat is still right. After all, if we can confront a difference of view points and if we can grant beingness and communicate without getting enturbulated is the optimum. It is just HCOB “You Can Be Right” We are not CofM and so it is not like if someone holds divergent views we cannot have it. That is Beebercat’s point and is valid and well taken.

    However this world is far from optimum , And by the same token, just as COB has a right to his view, so do all those reacting have a right to their reaction and to their angry responses.

    I’m myself inclined to let Beebercat be the better person this time, not because COBs viewpoint clearly mirrors the think popular in the church, something I might be more understanding of, but because it is too personal and too close to home. So like the others I am outraged at the insensitive nature of his response.

  305. beebercat,

    This smarmy, greasy, dweeb, ‘COB’, is minimizing the egregious, blatant, categorical destruction of life and justifying it. He is furthering it by doing so.

    This isn’t a question of ‘hurting his feelers’ or shrinking in fear of some nebulous generality of ‘the world’ as you put it.

    NO, this is a question of having the courage to take responsiblity for this suppressive assault on the Second and thereby ALL Dynamics and if you continue to be impartial, then YOU are doing nothing other than participating and that, ‘beeb’ isn’t a ‘safe’ place to be.

  306. The Muffin Man

    Did anyone read the Church’s official reply?

    Tommy said SO members who decide to have a kid and leave the SO are given immediate medical care, financial assistance, etc.

    I left because my wife got pregnant (lucky me!). We were treated like persona non grata: removed from post, put into separate berthings and generally looked down upon by anyone who knew about our situation. On top of that, when we couldn’t fit all of our MEST into the car, they wouldn’t let us keep our stuff inside. They made us put it in the dirt parking lot across the street. And we were only moving about 10 minutes away!

    Then I was told I had a huge freeloader debt (which later got absolved), lower conditions and told I couldn’t go to events (not that I’d want to go now anyway, but still). How’s that for “continuing as a public Scientologist?” Bulls**t!!!

    That’s how I get treated for dedicating 7 years of my young life to Scientology and clearing the planet. Only to have this lying degenerate scumbag go on the record and DENY the truth!!

    They dig their holes a little deeper every day, don’t they? Good job, guys! You’re doing our work for us!

  307. Mike Hobson

    Flag Order 3905 was *not* authored or authorized by Ron Hubbard. Although Guilluam Leserve’s (then ED INT) name and title are at the bottom, you can entirely certain this vile issue was mandated by McSavage and no other.

    Michael A. Hobson

  308. Freetothink

    Very well put Marta. You even made me realized how I had been so blind & reasonable by saying “tying up theta and awareness, constantly holding the not-is in place”

    Thank you my friend.

  309. COB, have a listen to DM Scientologist Wally Hanks beating a 15 year Scientology kid at a Scientology school: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oxrt4_R40xQ

    As you like to play DM and blame the victim, I guess this kid had it coming right? The women had it coming right? They should just take it like a man, right? DM is emotionally sadistic and wants his victims to accept responsibility so that he does not have to own his sadism.

    COB, you just don’t get it at all.

  310. Hey, Sea Orgers are just not very nice people. They are hysterical most of them. Friendships are not even allowed, you have to be willing to turn your back on anyone at anytime via golden rod. Emotions run hot and cold. Monday’s hero becomes Sunday’s zero with a CMO temper tantrum. The culture and social intercourse are impersonal, frantic, desperate. There is a level of terrorism in play at all times. I would ask myself if I wanted to be a child born into those conditions. No, I would not. I would ask myself if I wanted to be a child working or living in those conditions. No, I would not. The most minute percentage of our society wants to even be an adult, and be part of that group. More people want to work at McDonalds than the Church of Scientology. There are more fast food drive through McDonalds than there are Churchs. Some kids have parents that drink. Some kids have parents that are on drugs. There are manifold versions of child neglect. The truth is, we expected more from a Scientologist. That is why we find ourselves dismayed and disappointed. But I think the problem is in this term “Scientologist”. There is nothing Scientology about the Sea Org or the Church these days. The activities being conducted under the official name of “Scientology” are anti Hubbard and anti Scientology. I think this is what most of us find disturbing. The pretense and illusion. They say “This is Scientology” and it is not. It is some culture that has festered up around some books that were written by a man who is no longer here. L. Ron Hubbard would not recognise that place or those people if he did come back. Against the monster that has evolved as a group, a culture, at least we can consider ourselves lucky, not unlucky, for what we know, what we can see, what we can define as madness and what we can define as sanity and workable. This culture over there that has emerged is just one big distraction to keep you from getting up the bridge. Now that you have untangled yourself from the ropes and chains and walls, you can still Q and A with it, or get refocused and do what you intended to do before the train wreck. Every day you spend off the bridge they are still winning.

  311. martyrathbun09

    oracle, amen.

  312. 🙂 Thank you Marie-Joe. My love to you too!

  313. Felicitas Foster

    That goes along with look don’t listen and the deeds will show it.

  314. Thanks Marty,

    My bike is anything but sweet 🙂

    She’s a Buell, built in Milwaukee and her name is “The Slut”. And that’s not a degrade – anyone who’s ridden one and been bitten by the bug will completely understand.

  315. The funny thing is that I believe that is an misunderstanding. But it certainly feels like it has changed. Maybe onley for SO to read.

    This is what I got from the scientolohy handbook officially online

    “The second dynamic is the urge toward existence as a future generation. It has two compartments: sex; and the family unit, including the rearing of children.”

    And this is what I got from the more eleberate explenation. Officially online.

    “The second dynamic is CREATIVITY. Creativity is making things for the future and the second dynamic includes any creativity. The second dynamic contains the family unit and the rearing of children as well as anything that can be categorized as a family activity. It also incidentally includes sex as a mechanism to compel future survival.”

    Maybe the handbooks are dumbed down ?

  316. Jim,

    Well ‘m not going to apologize for making you cry 🙂

    I bought full sets of riding kits and protective gear for both of my kids so we could go riding. My daughter’s riding jacket is about half the size of mine, and the sheer joy on my her face when she puts it on – you have to see it to believe it!

    Any parent know how much work, time and expense it takes to raise kids. And with one happy smile, they repay it all back a hundred times over.

    My wish for all the SO members who posted their stories is that they get to experience this too in a new unit of time if that is what they want. No-one should be made wrong just because they want to have a family.

  317. Pandorawake,

    It’s near the end of the page 🙂

    Splog is my internet and work persona – Snarky Pedantic Lazy Old Git. I have a reputation to uphold – I look after Unix computers for a living – and as a profession we are … ahem … odd. Decidely odd.

    In the real world my name is Alan McKinnon and I hail from sunny South Africa. My home org was Pretoria and these days I live in Joburg. Maybe we do know each other – I’m almost certain I bumped into Chrissie once. It would have been late 2000 / early 2001

  318. Jim, I’ve met plenty of people who use their fists when they run out of brains. You aren’t the first, nor the last.


  319. Crashing Upwards,

    Thanks very much for those recollections on the LRH remarks on abortions and pregnancy.

    As regards the Sea Org, I agree with you but want to add a bit more to that.

    It is my understanding that LRH moved operations to the Flag Land Base because the Flag ship was no longer serving its needs. One could derive from this that LRH recognized that as times change, adjustments need to be made to handle new situations so that the Sea Org served its purposes.

    Today, times have changed. The protection of OT Technology being released into the mainstream is no longer a preventable situation. That game is over.

    The purpose of getting ethics in is one that has been perverted in the Sea Org and instead is being carried out by the members of this board. It is worth noting that this has been a networking operation carried on over the internet.

    The important missions are being carried out not in the Sea Org, but right here by Marty, J.B., Mike, Jim, Tom, Tiziano, Marc, Haydn, etc. etc.

    One could even say that the contributing members here are a huge part of the real Sea Org that LRH intended. The actual Sea Org, looking it over, can’t truly believe they are Keeping Scientology Working, maintaining the exact degree of ethics, tech and admin required to salvage beings on this planet. No way. They now answer to DM and have replaced LRH as their opinion leader with the mighty dwarf. This is their “command intention.” The tech has been perverted and the fate LRH warned of – Reverse Scientology – has been the result of many overts of omission and commission by the Sea Org.

    The question I feel is pertinent to ask, and one which I make no claims of knowing with certainty the answer, is what would LRH do?

    If the OT materials were all fully available and being delivered all over the place, willy-nilly of any authority, if the predilections of the Sea Org as a unit were now fully known, etc. would he not make adjustments?

    Today, with the internet, instant communication, swift and easy access of materials, the OT technology available to all, it is my belief that LRH would adapt to this situation. I believe he would try to create a solid group of Scientologists to keep the tech pure around the world, where there were indeed places (granted there would places this wasn’t the case – an unavoidable circumstance) one could get Standard Tech, taking full advantage of the features of the web.

    Whether they were called the Sea Org, the Guardian’s Office, the Watchdog Committee, Religious Technology Center or Interpol is really not what’s important.

    What’s important is the delivery of Standard Tech and the bringing of beings to higher states of existence.

  320. caliwog,
    I’m quite sure, positive, that you haven’t run out of brains. That might not be as good a thing as your brains are a thinkin’.

    Who said anything about fists by the way? Psshaww. Fists.

  321. OMG that video/audio was upsetting. Sikfuk!

  322. Its supposedly been redefined somewhere in the new basic books package. I have seen a thread on it, but can’t remember where.

  323. Cured Robot

    Jim, thank you, the irradication of the group via the 2nd dynamic is very spot on! The irradication of the 1st dynamic is also a major suppression.

  324. John Peeler

    Hey Sam, I too worked with Mike Gomes and Tommy in the President’s Office at CC. This is the first mention I’ve heard of Mike in years. I hope he is well! He was a great friend. It’s a bit hazy now, but I do recall that he was having 2D “problems” at that time, that you were pregnant, and if my memory serves me right, weren’t you offloaded as well? You posted at AOLA right? Sorry, that was a while ago and of course none of my business, but Mike would confide in me as a friend and as someone he could trust and talk to throughout all of that. Tell Mike that I said hello and would love to get in touch again if possible. 🙂

  325. CD, visit the west US.

  326. Dear Lucy James,

    My sincere apologies.
    Thank you for clarifying the issue with Kathy Brown & Thomas Dainet.
    I am VERY glad they weren’t forced to abort.
    This whole subject was so suppressed & secretive.

    How are they now?

  327. It makes since that the DM would have issues along the second dynamic. He has overts all over the place, not to mention it’s one of this biggest MU’s.

    Ya know, we’re really looking at a major upheaval down the road, aren’t we? CoS is gonna be on it’s ear before too long. Reading over a Doubt Formula from an OT VIII the other day, PAC itself seems to be in major disarray at the moment. DM appears to be in super-paranoid mode.

    Marty… keep up the good work! LOL

  328. Mike Hobson


    Above you wrote:

    “Remember Moxon’s daughter was the one that was allowed to tend a family of squirrels at INT base, and then suddenly tried to save them and was electrocuted to DEATH.”

    I was never at INT Base, but to the best of my knowledge, the tale that Stacey Moxon died whilst trying to rescue a squirrel from the transformer vault is nothing but OSA disinformation intended to prevent the Occupational Health and Safety Administration (OSHA) from investigating the criminally negligent complied and utter disregard for “wog” safety practices during the various construction projects there.

    According to a report I have seen online from an ex-INT Base staff member, Stacey Moxon was the CMO Gold Electrical Inspections I/C on the Renos Watch, Quarters and Station Bill (WQSB). Her job was to conduct pre-inspections of all electrical work so that outnesses could be corrected prior to the official county electrical inspector coming to the job site.

    Stacey Moxon went into an energized transformer vault on Sunday morning to inspect work that had been done the previous day (Saturday) when the system was *deenergized*. The extremely heavy vault cover was left partially open so that she would have access to perform the pre-inspection, which was her assigned duty.

    Even electric company professionals will not enter such a vault with the system energized without all manner of specialized protective gear, which Stacey did not have. A simple slip and fall on the oily bottom would have been enough to cause her to contact the live open buss bars and perish.

    If the accident investigators had been told the truth, that her death was directly related to work duties being performed for the base renovations, OSHA would have immediately closed down any and all construction at INT Base pending full safety inspections, required the property safety gear be obtained, provided to personnel with the personnel trained in its proper use and levied severe fines for the violations that resulted in a stupid and needless death.

    Michael A. Hobson

  329. pandorawake

    That’s a lovely story Splog.
    Thank-you so much for it!

    I have the motocycle bug also, but I stopped riding because I didn’t want my daughters to get any ideas, haha.

    It’s okay for ME to act like a maniac and tempt fate, I’d rather they didn’t.

    They probably do anyway, but only when the old lady isn’t looking;)

  330. 🙂

    My girlfriend’s father once told her in no uncertain terms to NEVER come home with a big, hairy biker.

    She honoured her father’s wishes, and came home with a small, hairy biker instead.

  331. Mike~Does OSHA have any jurisdiction with CofM today?

  332. thecountesskrak

    I do know one person on this affidavits list, Ari Brenner Walker and if she ever goes to court with this she is surely going to jail for perjury:

    She signs off:

    “5. Due to my previous position at FSO, which was to oversee the spiritual
    enhancement of FSO staff, I knew that were others who had been in situations
    like mine where they were Org members who got pregnant. I know for a fact that it
    was made very clear to them that what they wanted to do about their pregnancy was
    completely up to them and their choice. No one was to urge them otherwise and to my
    knowledge, no one did; in fact, throughout my tenure of the above position, it was
    practice to make sure the individual who was pregnant knew that whatever their
    decision was, it was completely their decision to make. ”

    As D/SSO not once but twice did she try and talk a close friend out of having her baby (second pregnancy). That second time around my friend told her to eff off and told her to reread Dianetics. She must have done this to plenty of other SO women. Ari also got an abortion(s) herself some years back ( I’m pretty sure it was more than one).

  333. martyrathbun09

    She is a knowing liar all right. I witnessed DM – in his inimitable style – interfering directly in her effort to create a 2D.

  334. OSHA has a website: http://www.osha.gov .

    The matters that fall within their jurisdiction are described therein.

  335. COB,
    Why do you assume that they haven’t taken responsibility for their decisions?
    What would taking responsibility in this situation mean?

    All of these women took already responsibility by leaving this “cult-like” hostile environment that you described. They are all now happy and successful mothers, raising their children in a children friendly, sane environment outside of the sea org.
    They took even more responsibility than other women, who were coerced into having an abortion, by additionally having the courage to speak out about the bad conditions in the Sea Org and thereby helping to improve the conditions.
    If no one would ever speak out against these conditions publically, then nothing would improve, because the church’s own internal correction system apparently doesn’t work.
    It can’t work, when the leader of the church himself is suppressive.

    So don’t say that they haven’t taken responsibility. What more do you expect them to do?

  336. John Peeler

    There is NO way you were able to route out of the SO, ESPECIALLY from INCOMM, in 3 weeks. I wasn’t going to say anything, but that’s just a blatant lie. No way.

    COB, having children is an organic and integral part of life. Sex is a natural activity. No group, organization or religion IMO has the power to stop it from happening. Even if it is a rule. You can’t stop life from taking its course and evolving.

    David Miscavige LOVED to rip couples apart. He couldn’t stand the 2nd Dynamic. IMO, he was trying desperately to destroy it. When he formed up his group of RTC Reps in ’96, including my then wife Melanie, most of the Reps were married and had spouses at the base. This even included the Headley’s at the time. All of the Reps were sent off to Flag for training and then to other continents, most of them never to come back. Melanie and I were separated for 4 years until I finally decided to leave and she was forced to divorce me. During that 4 year period, I CSW’d many times to both DM and Shelley to send me off to where she was posted and all were disapproved for no good reason. Well, except for DM’s evil purpose of course.

    The enforced abortions go along with DM’s psychotic impulse to destroy the 2D – sex, and the family unit. Why do you think he had the definition of 2D changed to just being “creativity?”

    But if your intent was to troll the board to piss of Marty, Jim Logan and a few others, I’d have to say that was a successful troll on your part. Suggestion to Marty and Jim, lurk moar on other boards so you can hat yourself on being able to spot a troll. I think you guys got rolled here.

  337. martyrathbun09

    John P, you are right. Also, I just received an email from a fellow who lost two wives to RTC just like you did. Man, sorry for contributing to that scene.

  338. “Mike~Does OSHA have any jurisdiction with CofM today?”

    YES, dammit. The LAW

  339. I looked into it just a tad~the rules are a bit different in churches but they are certainly not exempt and some areas are exactly like any other enterprise.

  340. Gaiagnostic

    Wanted to note that this story got coverage on Andrew Sullivan’s blog at The Atlantic: http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily_dish/2010/06/this-tiny-speck-of-nuisance.html

  341. TheEmperorIsNaked

    “Meet the new boss, same as the old boss.”

    I guess that is one way to express A=A. Maybe someday you’ll see the difference here. I won’t hold it against you that today is not that day.

  342. David Burress

    I have tried to get a copy of the McKnight study without success. It has never been peer reviewed. It is cited with some regularity in pro-life sources, which makes it odd that it hasn’t been reprinted. At this point I have to say it looks like pure propaganda.

    David Burress

  343. I eventually obtained a copy of the McKnight study. It is not pure propaganda, but I do not find the argument persuasive. It depends heavily on two unverified assumptions:
    1, that most abortion deaths were reported; and
    2. that the ratio of the death rate from illegal abortions to the death rate for legal births was at least 3.
    The first assumption is probably wrong by a factor of 2 or 3.
    The second assumption was based on data from a single survey of poor New York minority women, many of whom who undoubtedly received terribly incompetent abortions. Actually up to 90% of illegal abortions were performed in Doctor’s offices by competent doctors and had death rates much lower than childbirth.
    After correcting these assumptions you get a likely rate of illegal abortions around the 1 million usually accepted by mainstream sources such as the AMA.

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