Natalie Hagemo beats the body snatchers

Excerpt: ” Church spokesman Davis said mother and daughter made their own choices, the church didn’t force them to do anything. Now, he said, Hagemo is “rewriting history to justify her decision to leave Scientology.”

Tommy, I got news for you and your boss, she didn’t leave Scientology. She just arrived.

218 responses to “Natalie Hagemo beats the body snatchers

  1. Watching Eyes

    Good going Natalie and Shelby! Thank God you got your daughter back before it was too late. Too many reach a point of total breakdown, think they “deserve” it and stay. It’s worse than what’s done to POW’s.

    I smile when I think how many people are reading these recent articles. How many are still on staff reading under the covers with a flashlight, borrowing someone’s computer or stealing a few minutes at the library? We’ll be hearing from them in a few months when they’ve gotten out. Count on it.

  2. Thank you Natalie and Shelby so much for being so brave and sharing your story. I am so glad that we have you with us. You are courageous and wonderful ladies! 🙂 All my love.

  3. Really well done article. It drives the point home that the Church of Miscavige has no shame.

    First they try to force the mother to abort her child and then when the mother refuses and raises her daughter to be a worthwhile human being, the CofM recruits the daughter for the Sea Org.

    In 1987, I witnessed the attempted late night recruiting of an underage child in Redondo Beach so I have a reality on the ruthlessness of SO recruiters.

    I supported the parent in kicking the recruiters off his doorstep and suggested he call the police.

    When the recruiting team visited my mission the next day to give me a dressing down, I told them they were a disgrace to the Sea Org and to Scientology as well. I was so furious that I literally drove them out of the mission.

    Little did I know that this was their standard operating basis. There was so much off policy activity and most of us did not have a clue of its true extent.

  4. Tommy’s just like a talking doll; pull his string and one of his canned lies come spewing forth.

  5. Tommy Davis and David Miscavige are “letter of the law liars”. They lie pretending to follow the law to the letter, when the opposite is the truth.

    Lying seems to be a juvenile stage that Miscavige and Davis have not learned to outgrow.

    I would hate to have been a Scientology lawyer sticking up for such lying in my lawyer career.


  6. Shelby, you are so beautiful and I am so glad you are here today to speak out the truth.

    Natalie, you are an amazing being and thank you for helping Shelby to grow into this wonderful young lady.

    Tommy, YOU know it damn well that you have tried your hardest to separate my family. YOU know every once of your mind and body is filled with filth and lies. Keep lying and soon you will regret it when I speak out.

  7. Freedom Fighter

    “No Sea Org member has ever been subjected to ‘intimidation’.”

    ROFLMAO!! You hear that, guys? All of that yelling, screaming, the threats, and punishment, etc., that wasn’t “intimidation”. Well then, Tommy Boy, if that’s not “intimidation”, just what the hell would YOU call it?

    Oh, wait, let me guess . . . no one ever raised their voice either? Or maybe that type of treatment is reserved for the outer-org trainees. I know for a fact that I encountered plenty of intimidation as both an outer-org trainee and as a public. I don’t know what you’re smoking, Tommy Boy, but it must be some pretty good sh*t!

    This is really not funny, but it’s so flippin’ obsurd I can’t stop laughing . . .

    Natalie, good on you and your daughter for standing your ground and keeping in your personal integrity.

  8. Great article Natalie (and you too Shelby!)

    You were perfect.

    Natalie, your quote about the catholic priests not molesting every child perfectly exposed the utter bs of Tommy Two Tone — here is our “proof” nothing happened to you and you are a liar “because it didnt happen to someone else”. It is the tactic Dear Leader uses over and over — 10 people give time, place, form and event on being beaten by him and they “prove” he didn’t do any such thing because he was flying around the world in a private jet or some other people say “he didnt hit me and he helps injured sparrows”. It is illogical. And you made the illogic clear.

    Go girls!

  9. Thought Provoking


    What a hair raising account!

    Bravo on several accounts. The first one being that you maintained being her legal advocate when she went into the SO at 14. And mostly for listening to her when she realized it wasn’t what she expected. Sadly, I know someone whose parents allied with the church when she wanting to leave and even brought her back to base when she did one day figure out a way to blow to her home. In the end, it didn’t turn out well. A totally theta being enthusiastic about Scientology brutalized by betrayal of the SO and her own family.

    Secondly, I am so glad that you maintained such a good comm line with Shelby when she was an adult that in the end, she was willing to see the truth for herself, despite the external pressure she was receiving from the church. And well done to her dad too on making sure she came home for the holidays.

    I am so relieved that things turned out okay. Truly a scary series of events. Your original postulate to have a child was very strong.

    Thank you for sharing this story. You are a very courageous woman.

  10. “..she didn’t leave Scientology. She just arrived.”

    Hoo-ha, there’s some attitude with a kick! 🙂

    With thanks to the SP Times and Natalie – what a terrific article.

    From the article: He [Davis] added: “No Sea Org member has ever been subjected to ‘intimidation.’ ”

    Really, Tommy? Not one, not ever? Now, how can you know that for sure, positively, absolutely? Wow. I’m not sure there’s any other organization or church, or company for that matter, that would be irresponsible enough to retain an official spokesperson who uses language containing these kind of brash absolutes and generalities: “No” and “ever”. Gawd, talk about risk – and idiocy.

  11. I want to make a Tommy Davis Magic 8-ball. You remember those things you grab it, give it a shake and see what it says?

    His would have: “Thats absolutely not true”.

    (ask another question and give it a shake)…”The Church of Scientology has never done that..”

    (Shake it up)…” They are just saying that to justify their own crimes…”

  12. Natalie and Shelby, your story is a true bombshell fired at Miscavige on behalf of those unable to fight for themselves.

    I believe, without any doubt, that the combined stories told over the last two days will save lives and restore at least some power to parents. The church will be forced to complete their policy reversal on these issues.

    You guys are, literally and figuratively, the bomb!

  13. Doc "Smith"

    Hi Natalie, Good for you. I had heard you were on the Indie side of the fence and thought I’d see you at Amy’s book party. Well maybe we’ll see you sometime soon. Well done on standing up to the bulls**t and getting your daughter out, I remember Shelby was very cute when you were staff in Seattle. Keep up the good work.

    Mark Elliorr

  14. Doc "Smith"

    Oops, I guess I can’t type that fast. Mark Elliott

  15. Great article Natalie & Shelby! I am so happy that things have turned out so well for both of you and your family.

    Well done!


  16. My thoughts exactly, Marta. He speaks in absolutes so flippantly.

    His tactic’s with John Sweeney alone show he himself is capable of some serious intimidation. But of course – this never, ever, ever happened to a Sea Org member. Ever.

  17. War and Peace

    Craigs List AD


    International Speaker for media and TV appearances.

    Must be able to lie convincingly.
    Must be able to throw the microphone down and stalk out of interview room feigning upset.
    Must be willing to say “No Sea Org Member member has ever been subjected to intimidation” with a straight face and good TRs.
    Must be willing to state over and over that there is no “Disconnection” in Scientology.
    Must be willing to act aghast and appalled at the accusation of 25 years of enforced abortions.

    Must dress well, refer to David Miscavige as the “Pope” of Scientology
    Applicants must be willing himself to clean toilets with a toothbrush and do deckwork ON DEMAND and endure 8 hours a day sec checking to verify loyalty to DM.

    Must be able to present extensive affidavits from veteran Scientologists PROVING Scientology does not do that !
    Must repetitively say the whistleblower is a LIAR and since their departure, the Churches have BOOMED and EXPLODED in growth.
    Must present the Interviewer with DVDs on Universal Human Rights to PROVE Scientology does not have an SP Hall.

    Only serious applicants need apply

  18. Mockingbird6

    Put together a few of pieces of data here:

    1) Sea Org couples who had babies were sent out to failing orgs as punishment.

    2) Seattle was a booming org in 78-80 when I was there.

    3) In 90 (91?) Natalie was sent to Seattle because she wouldn’t give up having her baby.

    ERGO: It follows thatSeattle was by then a failing org.

    That’s only a few years under DM to go from boom to failing!

    How’s that for a stat analysis? (Rough, yes, Incomplete, yes, but Interesting, YES!)

  19. This is part of what seems to be a “rock-opera” inspired by this blog, currently coming forth from my fingers and voice. Probably the second or third song. I’m working on the first song now. It’s about discovering Scientology and the writings and works of LRH.

    This one is pretty easy to understand. It’s not about Scientology or LRH, it’s about The Church of Scientology and my experience trying to tow the line.

    “Square Peg, Round Hole”

  20. UnDisturbed

    These SP Times articles, as well as the earlier ones on disconnection, present a wonderful opportunity for the Church to face policies which are creating tremendous upset and by-passed charge to its parishioners, and to work an effective remedy to these unwanted and unneeded effects.

    Instead, the Church blatantly lies, deceives, attacks and denies the obvious. Tommy Davis is actually quoted: “No Sea Org member has ever been subject to intimidation”.

    Sadly these types of denials and lies prove the formal Church has total contempt for its parishioners. Apparently its parishioners can be lied to, deceived, frightened and threatened and they will just take it, without protest, without thinking, without evaluation. The Church has no need to be truthful, because its parishioners will believe whatever they are told to believe.

    This fact scares me the most about the current scene in the Church. And why the mission of exposing these blatant untruths is so important if Scientology is ever to survive.

  21. Redneck Thetan

    Natalie, you are now on my list of personal heroes.

  22. Dave and Tommy you’re “GLIB”!

  23. Thank you all for your kind words. Being able to speak out about this was very liberating.

    The C of M’s response via Tommy D. was absurd to put it gently. I had a chance to respond to the C of M’s response, prior to the story coming out.

    I responded to Tommy’s delusional statement that “No Sea Org member has ever been subjected to intimidation”, which he made in response to my statements about how Sea Org members attempted to intimidate and coerce me into having an abortion. The St. Pete Times didn’t print my response, but I’d like to share it with you here.

    “Tommy, Tommy, Tommy, you’re glib, you’re glib. You don’t know the history of coerced abortion in the Sea Org. I do!”

  24. Awesome Nat!

    Congrats on getting this data to light. I can’t believe Tommy Davis … wow. That’s all I can say about him. You know, since I know about your situation more than many, I must conclude that likely everything Tommy denies is probably truth.

    I mean, the guy is a broken record, like someone (DM) ordered him (or PDH’d) “Deny everything!” … I’ve been re-watching some classic X-Files episodes and one thing that always runs through the episodes is how the secret bad guys covering things up always “deny everything” …. It’s a shame the Church is in this valence. It became the suppressives it once fought.

    And yes, “the truth is out there” … the truth is right here.

  25. crashingupwards

    Undisturbed, I agree there is contempt for the parishoners. Thats what happens with a captive audience.

    And beyond that, its “the end justifies the means” mentality which is and has been behind so much of what the church does and has done wrong. Most of us bought into that while still “in”. THAT mentality, philosophy, call it what you will, has to go.

    Natalie, well done on putting your family first. Its odd that doing that actually stands out and is a reason to cheer. What a twisted path we all went down. Anyway, glad you made it. Well done.

  26. Ne Obliviscaris

    My wife and I decided to have children before getting married in July 1986 — shortly before the “No children in the SO” issue first came out.

    That first issue provided for a petition line to have kids. We decided that we would work our way up the Org Board and petition to have kids at the appropriate time.

    Unfortunately, after we were married and before my wife could get prescribed birth control, the T/MLO on the ship gave us some condoms to use.

    One of them broke and my wife got pregnant. She missed her period and went to a doctor ashore right away. It was confirmed.

    We talked about it and I basically talked her into having an abortion based on my goals in the SO. My wife loves me so much that she went along with my misguided logic.

    I want to be clear here. No one on the ship knew anything about it until my wife brought it up months later. We were assigned lower conditions and made to study LRH refs on abortion and children because of it.

    Some months later 2 other couples came up pregnant and both of the couples routed out in short succession.

    Some months after that another couple got pregnant.

    This time I was consulted about it and asked to talk to the pregnant couple about it as they were “valuable staff”. The terminals that told me this were concerned about the “attrition rate” of staff leaving the ship. So was I.

    Needless to say, my talk to the couple was to rekindle their purpose in the SO. I also told them that my wife had had an abortion.

    During the talk, I sprinkled in a lot of “Do whatever you want” and “Do- what’s -best- for- you’s.

    However, being the expert closer that I am, I knew that they had made their decision when the pregnant staffer started asking questions about my wife’s abortion. I blithely told her that it was no big deal and that she was back on post the next day.

    The couple went ahead with the abortion.

    It was the dirtiest deed I’ve ever done.

    I am ashamed to think that I was at the forefront of the culture that followed the issuance of that “anti-children” policy.

    To see the result of 24 years of this policy’s effect sickens me. I don’t think I’ll ever be free of the guilt.

    To say “I’m sorry” is wholly inadequate.

    How do you make up for a life not realized? A life conceived and marred by the pain of death before it can be realized. You can’t.

    You can only help in present time.

    Thank you guys for letting me help.


  27. Wow, wow, wow. You two beautiful women are so courageous. My deepest admiration to you for taking another big step toward ending these abusive practices. Thank you, my sisters!

  28. I’d never told anyone this story, as it’s so ugly, but I feel this is the place and the time. I just wish I’d told Natalie

    In August 1990 I was at CLO in training. When I went to Treasury to be invoiced I Met Natalie for the first time. She was very pregnant, and due at any time. As a matter of fact, when I came back the next day the door to Treasury was locked and someone said Natalie was delivering. Then a CMO Messanger came to the door and opened it. She told me that Natalie wouldn’t be back. I smiled and asked about the mother and baby. The CMO Messanger turned bright red and said “The C*nt is still in labor.” She started shoving things off of desk tops and screaming obsenities about Natalie and her “abandoning” her post. She screemed “If I could get my hands on that wh*re I’d yank that bas**rd right out of her and throw the b*tch in the RPF!”. I was so shocked I could barely find the floor to walk out of there. Ah, yes, the beloved Church, caring about their staff members and wishing them well.

    I’m very proud of you Natalie, for standing up and getting your story out. I know it will help others wake up. (your daughter is beautiful like her mom)

  29. “No Sea Org member has ever been subjected to ‘intimidation.’ ”

    Whew, Marty, that must be a relief to you, huh? I mean, all that intimidation you were reportedly dishing out to juniors in the S.O. (according to davis) never happened! Tommy says so, and apparently tommy knows everything that ever happened in the history of the church (Really, just ask him)!

    What a nice suprise, tommy absolving you and the other whistleblowers of any intimidating behavior during your S.O. careers. That tommy’s quite a guy…

  30. DFB You are a wonderful gift to this blog.
    Thank you for creating such beauty out of
    a less than beautiful experience.

  31. Natalie

    What an example you set for all our daughters! Good for you Natalie Hagemo!!

  32. Tony DePhillips


  33. Davis continues to “not-is” the general SO member consensus of DM imposed “No Children Rule”.

    Tommy & CO$ are now down to a policy of lies exclusively denying any and every wrongdoing whatsoever, because that’s all they can do at this point, and accuse everyone else of being liars.

    Tank’s getting empty …

    From –>

    Late in her pregnancy, she was called into an office to answer questions while connected to an e-meter. The Scientology device is said to measure a person’s mental state, including whether she is telling the truth. Hagemo said the investigator wanted names of people who told her it was okay to get pregnant.

    Davis, the church spokesman, said Hagemo’s portrayal is false.

    “The church has the deepest respect for family and the creation of a family and children. There is no hostility towards pregnant women.”

    Notice how clever Tommy 2-Tone is avoiding the question?

    He did not even respond about the investigator wanting names on the meter of people who may have approved of the pregnancy, as if that is a crime.

    From –> recruiter had said Shelby could talk to her family any time, but it took days to get approval to make a phone call.

    This would not be a call from Cell Block “A”, nor any covert high-security military mission.

    Am I the only one that thinks its completely nuts requiring permission to call someone, esp. a family member, your parents specifically?

    From –> recruiter had said Shelby could talk to her family any time, but it took days to get approval to make a phone call.

    Hagemo kept asking to see her daughter. “When I finally did see her I wasn’t allowed to be alone with her.
    Sure Tommy, Scientology just worships the family model. Retard!

    The Church’s lie factory machinery is just unbelievable.

  34. Tony DePhillips

    Excellent point!!

  35. Thats fantastic DFB!
    I look forward to hearing more.
    All the Best!

  36. Tony DePhillips

    Very well done Natalie and Shelby and also the SP Times for continuing to expose the insanity of this “church”.

    It is a very sad state of affairs for Scientology having this go on and denigrade the philosphy so blatantly.

    OSA are you not in charge of PR?? Why do you let this continue? You know this stuff goes on. Why don’t you wear your hat and DO something effective or just quit?? Have some guts please.

  37. Even the head of the largest organization on Earth, the Catholic Church is asking for forgiveness. But not DM and his sidekick, Tommy. DM probably thinks the Pope is off-policy and guilty of defending and not attacking, not to mention glutz PR for admitting wrongdoing on the part of his flock. DM will NEVER, EVER admit having done anything wrong. DM doesn’t do windows or wrong.

    The concept that possibly there are a couple of things that could be improved about the church, it’s application (or non-application) of policy and some widespread practices that might have, basically, the entire planetary population that knows of Scientology having an unfavorable opinion of it (by survey) is one that is utterly alien to DM & Co.

    Whenever this year’s MV happens, I guarantee there will be a Niagra of unspoken questions and communications from the passengers in DM’s direction every time he shows his face. The forced esprit de corps and false decorum should be highest ever by a mile. Can’t wait for the leaked reports that are certain to come.

  38. Tony DePhillips

  39. Freetothink

    clap, clap, clap! Thanks DFB

  40. Thank you Natalie and Shelby. I believe you’re helping future parents to stand tall against suppression.

  41. “There’s a pattern of human rights abuses. and it doesn’t have a damn thing to do with the religion.”

    Standing ovation to the St. Petersburg Times for journalistic integrity and courageous reporting.

    Standing ovation for Natalie Hagemo and Shelby for living the meaning of responsibility and integrity — for their love, for their family, and for their religion, Scientology.

    Rotten tomatoes at Tommy Davis for being the Poster Boy for Lying Weasel.

  42. For my Mother, for Natalie, for the women of this Earth:

  43. Freetothink

    Wow! That was very touching! I watched the video & read the whole story. You’re both awesome!

    I admire people that persist on a certain course despite the bumps on the road (even a few crashes) & persist in helping others despite the madness they encounter. I can tell you have good hearts! Your courage sets an exemple for all of us. Sending you two a big hug!

  44. “Mother: the most beautiful word on the lips of mankind.” -Kahlil Gibran

    I know I’m fully Cause and responsible for my Life … it does not make me less to know that a mother’s love is the closest thing to an 8th Dynamic love (god), and that I am grateful to my mother for being my Mother through my time as a child and teen and beyond here.

    This song reminds me of my mother … who did not let *anything* come between us and her love for me.

    Women are objectified and degrade enough by various aspects of our culture … but I venerate the life form of Woman, and women should be honored and helped to do the amazing quintessence of the life form purpose.

    Yes, it’s a physical function …but if all form follows function, then it is a sublime metaphor: granting of Beingness…so much, a life is born.

    That is holy.

  45. “Church spokesman Tommy Davis said Hagemo’s account is ‘false and denied.'”

    According to Tommy, everything exposed by any whistleblowers is false and denied. Tommy is a true Baghdad Bob. Surely anyone with at least 2/5’s a brain can see that. 🙂

  46. Cowboy Poet

    Epitaph For Miscavige

    Little Davey was his name,
    Abusin’ people was his game.
    Would sometimes give Lou a little poker.
    Said it made him feel light in the loafers.
    But when he tried it on my horse,
    I had no choice but to use some force.
    Here lies Little Davey.

  47. Wow, David,

    That was a few years before I walked into your Mission. I miss that place. Looking back, it was the best Scientology I ever got to date. Going uplines to the AO’s was nothing compared to the service at the mission in those days.

    Thank you for sharing, please share more when you can.

    Natalie, well done on joining the independent field.


  48. Cowboy Poet

    Epitaph for Cowboy Poet

    The two things I love most in life,
    Are fine horses and my lovely wife.
    So into her new saddle, make this hide o’ mine
    That I may be between those two,
    For all the rest of time.

  49. I’d like to point out that these St. Pete Times articles expose the suppression rampant in the Church of Miscavology without ever attacking the philosophy or practice of Scn in any way. Neither do they cast aspersions on LRH. That’s actually kind of amazing.

    Yes, 1000 time more suppression has occurred in the C of M in the past couple of decades than what is exposed in these two articles. But considering the pitbulls DM has been siccing on the paper and the authors, they are maintaining their integrity and doing the best they possibly can in the circumstances. They are exposing the real why and they are not attacking the wrong targets. I say, “Bravo!”

  50. Cowboy Poet

    I guess you’d better do it.
    I think it’s the only way he’s gonna get some balls.

  51. Just imagine being given the chance that Miscavige got : being the leader of Scientology.

    Now if there is a real dream job, this is it. Basically like being Father Christmas – just give give give. Or make grow make gow make grow…

    Make LRH tech available, organize + establish groups and activities, contribute significantly to the process of thousands beings going free, lead a number of really willing + able staff, etc.

    And all publics and staff will love and admire you like small children love father Christmas.

    OK, there will be some difficult times and some hard work involved, but it still is a dream job. You would know that you are doing an extremely worthwile job, doing more good than every pope ever did. You would know that you don’t need to inflate your ego, because doing that dream job would be the absolute super theta reward in itself – give give give … make grow make grow make grow.

    And there comes this DM and what’s he doing ? Take take take or reduce reduce reduce ( money, time, joy of creating in his staff, willingness to contribute from publics, not to mention the hopes of thousands to go free, the chance for a good reputation of scientology etc etc ).

    Absolutely incredible how he f****d up that dream job …

  52. Concerned Citizen

    These recent articles are very good, albeit very upsetting. I know a lot of the people involved, and it hit a bit too close to home.

    It made me revisit the issue of why the currently in lend themselves to this. How can an intelligent person such as Tommy Davis lie so blatantly? I have to admit over a year ago I too would have lied and I did rationalize and justify all these tremendous inconsistencies.

    Jeff Hawkins, whom I admire and hold in very high esteem, reasoned in a few occasions that the datum that “The greatest good for the greatest number of dynamics” is the yardstick to measure any decisions against to guarantee survival was the reason and so he seems to have come to the conclusion that it is best to just have a set of principles and stick to these come hell or high water. I can see how he arrived at this conclusion.
    I have been chewing these concepts around. I have concluded that the datum is in fact correct and valid; the problem is not the yard stick, the problem is in fact a second yardstick no one seems to be aware of and using this second yardstick to compute these things, they are unable to arrive at anything but the wrong conclusion. Allow me to explain:
    A held down seven is an incorrect piece of information used to make an equation and which causes the result to be wrong. Comes from the analogy that trying to add 5+5 on a calculator that has the number 7 shorted so as to be included in every calculation will result in 17 invariably.
    It is my opinion the problem is created by that exact phenomena, that these people compute the datum “the greatest good for the greatest number of dynamics “with the held down seven that “all of management’s decisions are the greatest good” or that “whatever the Church dictates is the greatest good automatically by virtue of the fact that the Sea Org’s purpose is to get ethics in.”( In other words, the Sea Org’s purpose should be to create an environment that operates for the greatest good for the greatest number of dynamics’ so of course all its decisions and actions must naturally be the greatest good . I’ll bet 97.5% of the people in think this way and that is why they lie and justify and allow and stand by, all these abuses.
    This is similar to the doctrine of “papal infallibility” otherwise known as ex cathedra edicts. If the Pope said it, then it is free from error by action of the Holy Ghost. Only one Pope ever invoked this “Power”
    But in reality, empirically no one is exempt from error, it is simply impossible because perfection is an absolute which this universe does not allow, unless of course it is a purely subjective standard in which case it exist only for those whose subjective idea of perfections is brought to fruition.
    But NOT ONE PERSON could ever be considered f100% free from error in any objective or empirical context. Nonetheless Miscavige considers himself the one perfect human being and so everyone else and everything else must be wrong when the desired result is not achieved.
    Thus if he hit you it is your fault, if you saw abuses your thinking is skewed by overts , since he never abuses or does anything wrong, everything he does is deserved by those he does it to.
    Since it does happen that overts skew perspective, people aware of this fact buy it and forget to look, forget to actually measure against the original yard stick – “The optimum solution is the one that results in the greatest good for the greatest number of dynamics” and have in essence adopted a second yard stick – “Everything Int managements says is the greatest good for the greatest number of dynamics”, but they never verify this for themselves, they just believe it is so and feel attacked by anyone that tries to point out that the measurements don’t match even remotely.
    Anyway, it is my opinion that therein lays the real reason they do lie, justify, rationalize etc, not because of the greatest good, but because of the held down sevens with which they “apply” this datum.
    I’m so glad we found and got rid of these held down sevens, and I can’t help but wonder how many more of these I will find in my thought process.
    If you are not a Scientologist and are reading this, but know some “in the church Scientologist” please do ask them to explain these things, ask how Is it that so many whistle blowers are all lying and the Church is the only institution on earth that never makes a mistake and never is guilty of any infraction.
    And if The Church of Scientology is really that perfect, then please tell me how something so good and perfect can be so hated? Surely if you keep asking, some of them will have to look and boy do they need to look. It is so ingrained in their thinking, so taken for granted that only through external pressure will many look.

  53. Concerned Citizen

    These recent articles are very good, albeit very upsetting. I know a lot of the people involved, and it hit a bit too close to home.

    It made me revisit the issue of why the currently in lend themselves to this. How can an intelligent person such as Tommy Davis lie so blatantly? I have to admit over a year ago I too would have lied and I did rationalize and justify all these tremendous inconsistencies.

    Jeff Hawkins, whom I admire and hold in very high esteem, reasoned in a few occasions that at fault is the datum “The optimum solution is one that results in the greatest good for the greatest number of dynamics.” And so he seems to have come to the conclusion that it is best to just have a set of principles and stick to these come hell or high water. I can see how he arrived at this conclusion.
    I have been chewing these concepts around and disagree with his conclusion (with all due respect to you Jeff), I have concluded that the datum “The optimum solution is one that results in the greatest good for the greatest number of dynamics.” is in fact correct and valid.
    The problem is not the yard stick, the problem is in fact a second yardstick no one seems to be aware of and using this second yardstick to compute these things, they are unable to arrive at anything but the wrong conclusion. Allow me to explain:
    A held down seven is an incorrect piece of information used to make an equation and which causes the result to be wrong. Comes from the analogy that trying to add 5+5 on a calculator that has the number 7 shorted so as to be included in every calculation will result in 17 invariably.
    It is my opinion the problem is created by that exact phenomena, that these people compute the datum “the greatest good for the greatest number of dynamics “with the held down seven that “all of management’s decisions are the greatest good” or that “whatever the Church dictates is the greatest good automatically by virtue of the fact that the Sea Org’s purpose is to get ethics in.”( In other words, the Sea Org’s purpose should be to create an environment that operates for the greatest good for the greatest number of dynamics’ so of course all its decisions and actions must naturally be the greatest good . I’ll bet 97.5% of the people in think this way and that is why they lie and justify and allow and stand by, all these abuses.
    This is similar to the doctrine of “papal infallibility” otherwise known as ex cathedra edicts. If the Pope said it, then it is free from error by action of the Holy Ghost. Only one Pope ever invoked this “Power”
    But in reality, empirically no one is exempt from error, it is simply impossible because perfection is an absolute which this universe does not allow, unless of course it is a purely subjective standard in which case it exist only for those whose subjective idea of perfections is brought to fruition.
    But NOT ONE PERSON could ever be considered f100% free from error in any objective or empirical context. Nonetheless Miscavige considers himself the one perfect human being and so everyone else and everything else must be wrong when the desired result is not achieved.
    Thus if he hit you it is your fault, if you saw abuses your thinking is skewed by overts , since he never abuses or does anything wrong, everything he does is deserved by those he does it to.
    Since it does happen that overts skew perspective, people aware of this fact buy it and forget to look, forget to actually measure against the original yard stick – “The optimum solution is the one that results in the greatest good for the greatest number of dynamics” and have in essence adopted a second yard stick – “Everything Int managements says is the greatest good for the greatest number of dynamics”, but they never verify this for themselves, they just believe it is so and feel attacked by anyone that tries to point out that the measurements don’t match even remotely.
    Anyway, it is my opinion that therein lays the real reason they do lie, justify, rationalize etc, not because of the greatest good, but because of the held down sevens with which they “apply” this datum.
    I’m so glad we found and got rid of these held down sevens, and I can’t help but wonder how many more of these I will find in my thought process.
    If you are not a Scientologist and are reading this, but know some “in the church Scientologist” please do ask them to explain these things, ask how Is it that so many whistle blowers are all lying and the Church is the only institution on earth that never makes a mistake and never is guilty of any infraction.
    And if The Church of Scientology is really that perfect, then please tell me how something so good and perfect can be so hated? Surely if you keep asking, some of them will have to look and boy do they need to look. It is so ingrained in their thinking, so taken for granted, that only through external pressure will many look.

  54. Cool!

  55. Natalie, it must have been hard telling Shelby about the challenge to her life that the CoS was. But I’d say the message that came through loud and strong to her would have been just how much you loved her and were willing to fight for her.

    Well done, Mom.

  56. Mike Lemeron

    The only thing Tommy davis is defending is DM and CofM crimes, not Scientology. How much intimidation does it take to coerce a woman to abort her child? My first wife, Brooke Shackleton had 2 abortions a year apart. My children. The first time, she came to me with a beaming smile saying she was pregnant. I was 27 yrs old. She was about 24. I was taken aback for a second then it hit me, “I am going to be a Dad.” I was happy inside. I never thought about abortion. About an hour later she came to me all stone-faced and announced to me that she was having an abortion and that I had no say in the matter. I am suspecting she had a “talking to” for such an about-face in such a short period of time. These abortions have nothing to do with Scientology. They are just further efforts do degrade people and that is what CoM and DM are all about. Tommy Davis, please wise up. You were a good kid before DM made you a front man.

  57. PS. Your story of going to the org to get Shelby reminded me of Liz Anderson, parked outside the AO ANZO for four days waiting for Jordan:

  58. Tommy Davis, you are an absolute joke. An international spokesperson who doesn’t apply PR policy. What game are you playing? Your allegiance should be to the Commodore, not to that viscious little prick at RTC.

    Tommy, if you truly value your eternity, you have to be able and willing to ~look~. Not every accusation made against the Church is a lie. Think for yourself, learn for yourself (remember that one?)

    “When you can sort out data and become skilled in it, you will become very difficult to fool and you will have taken the first vital step in grasping a correct estimate of any situation.” — LRH, HCO PL 11 May 1970 Data Series 2 LOGIC

  59. martyrathbun09

    Ne, Thanks for telling us this. You are a man.

  60. martyrathbun09

    Mine too.

  61. Watching Eyes

    Amy’s Mom,
    Ugly is an understatement. Have no regrets for not telling Natalie sooner. No new mother needs to hear a story like that. I think you were wise to keep it under wraps…….until now.
    As for that CMC messenger, she’s got to live with her evil purps. If she ever gets out, pity her children, if she’s even capable of having any. Imagine having her for a mother!

  62. Natalie, Christie, Sunny,Laura your expose so boldly published in the St. Pete Times as well as their website is having far reaching consequences.

    I know it’s reaching the outside world when my neighbor sends me an email saying — more bad news for scientology.

    Here’s the interesting part — he’s become friends with 2 scienologists he met while in LA — BOTH of them are involved with a charity they formed of which Ann Archer helps fundraise.

    He’s promised me that this summer, when they are in the Hamptons — he’ll start asking very pointed questions and directing them to this and other blogs.

    Thank you all for your willingness to come forward with very painful information.


  63. The story on Natalie and speaking out regarding abortion is a opening eye.

    Spoke man T Davidson is not a person I would give two pence time . He is only working for David Miscaviage and does not apply Scientology at all. He is unreliable and anything that is said by him is worthless and take it as a pinch of salt, and instead as its being done Make ones own investigation, because he is simply a liar working for David Miscaviage .

    Any Media that supports TD comes under
    investigation aswell for acting on Tommy Davidson info alone, and use resources and own investigation and evidence,and that it should be made known to Tommy Davidson he is not a source to take as facts. He is untrusthworthy sick , mad, and a clone of David Miscaviage and Suppressive.

    Suggestion is, that more and more speak out and get their stories out , and pressure put on the Goverment to carry through the on- going investigation.

    Meanwhile information be put out and wide spread perhaps campaign postering in leaflet form be made available to those poor recruits that attenmpt to get sucked into staff under false hood and with the option data made available of the risks before you enter the Church of Scientology wanting to choose to go on staff and reasons to verify the Scientology Organization as being valid , offering them the choice to view before a decision is made

    Good Hunting

  64. Lol. THANK YOU!!!!!!!!

  65. I agree with Jeff on this one. In any group, one thing that all true members agree on is that the group must survive. Things that would be out-ethics in other situations can be justified if it appears to aid group survival. Of course, these things must be hidden from non-members, because they will see them as out-ethics.

    And the grim truth is that no matter how noble the cause, if the group uses violence, betrayal etc. to achieve that cause, what they produce is not the noble cause but violence, betrayal etc.

  66. V, My god you have a way of sharing Love that
    makes my heart soar. Thank you my beautiful

  67. WH,

    Love! This! Post! Great news, and thanks for sharing.

    Last Friday night on the Upper East Side a dinner companion said, “But now we want to hear about the Church of Scientology and what’s happened since we saw you last. How’s it going for you guys who are working to stop the abuse and take down that creep who runs it?”

    It’s time The New York Times picked up this story again. New Yorkers want to know what’s happening.

    Just Me

  68. Another heartbreaking story of 2D suppression newly posted on Steve Hall’s website. Knowing both Melissa and her sister Valeska (a long term Freewinds staff and extremely competent auditor who recently left the Sea Org with her husband Chris Guider) I can assure you the facts are not exaggerated.

    Read the article here:

  69. Yes, Mike

    and how much intimidation does it take to make an originally lovely guy like Tommy Davis into the hate spitting hawk defending full-time an outright SP?

    Tommy, Tommy, Tommy, where are you between your public appearances ? In the hole?

  70. Thanks for sharing, that is shocking, not surprising but still shocking. I know if wasn’t easy for you to share.

    It goes to show just how high a regard the C of M has for families doesn’t it?

    That messenger was one of many who held those sentiments. I got those flows, and comments (none that vulger, to my face anyways) on a regular basis. Especially when I had to squeeze through people to get somewhere or anytime my huge stomach got “in the way”.

    In the end I have my daughter Shelby, and two more children, all who I love more than life itself. What does that messenger have?

    Let them call me a c*unt, wh*ore, or even a b*tch, but I’m a one happy free b*tch!

  71. Amy’s Mom,

    in hindsight, your observation just is a measure of what Natalie has gone through during her pregnancy in that hostile environment and a proof if there were the need of it at all.

    Natalie, what a lioness you are and what a beautiful daughter you have. Two strong, courageous and proud women. Oh, do I adore yee!

  72. Unlike most other things I’ve read on this blog, this one goes against my personal observation. I was at the HGB from 91-94 and I saw SO members get pregnant and fire off to Class V orgs from time to time. I never saw nor heard about any abortions or lower conditions for being pregnant. My perception was that most SO members did not want to start families because they did not want to go to class V orgs, and of course their SO orgs did not want to lose them, but that was the extent of it. Since Dianetics is so strongly anti-abortion, I find this forced abortion thing a little hard to believe (but then again I never would have thought that an F/N would be redefined), at least for the period when I was around the SO.

  73. Marty,
    I’ve posted a response to the first part of this thread, the release of the Trib articles, to Cured Robot’s comment at the bottom of that thread.

    In case it gets missed in the speed of particle flow I want to call attention to it, and my own realizations resulting from this thread and the one here on Natalie’s experience.

    I think with the uncovering of the suppression on the 2D yesterday and today, that we have hit upon one of the basic ‘whys’ on how the Sea Org and its members hit a dwindling spiral. It began with the assault on the 2D BY the 3D in 1986 with the issuance of that first FO by Guillaume as ED Int.

    I think this mechanism is one of the key ones that DM used to involve us all in mutual out-rudiments and through which we became that much less perceptive of the destruction it has wrought on the dynamics.

    I think this attack on the Second Dynamic is possibly a, if not THE, primary means by which the Third Dynamic has been subverted. It is the abyss down which the integrity of the dynamics has gone.

    I missed it. It was ‘gone’. JT saw it and asked ‘where are the children?’ With them went the group.

  74. … and one is better than none.

  75. It may not reflect my view entirely but here is a view of a Scientologist on Tommy Davis

  76. help eachother in your cases against the C of $

  77. Everybody please sue the socks of that cult.


  78. martyrathbun09

    Jim, brace yourself for tonight’s post.

  79. If it helps, here are some more witnesses to the coerced abortions:

  80. martyrathbun09

    Veritas. You da theta queen. Hey, everybody appreciates mamas. Even crack dealers:

  81. To those furthering this criminal enterprise, I have a question. When DM applies the Simon Bolivar policy and flees with all the church assets, who is going to pay your legal bills? Who will be there to protect and support you?

    You have no support or protection now. With a simple mood swing, your boss can throw you in the RPF for the rest of your life.

    With more and more witnesses accumulating against the church and corroborating one another’s stories, the legal position of the church has become tenuous. No matter how slick the lawyers or how much paid in legal fees, the church is going to start losing in the courts. Losing big time. Precedents will be set.

    Local DAs will get in on the action, like sharks to chum. But DAs need bodies in the chair to win a prosecution. Criminals will be made. The weaker the better. As in sports, a win is a win. Whose body will they chair? Yours?

    Isn’t it time to stop being a criminal and start being what you pretend to be? A being with integrity. A being with high ARC. A being actually taking responsibility for improvement across the dynamics rather than harming.

    Why did you get into Scientology? If you are truly following that purpose, your TA will be floating most of the time. Honestly.

    If you don’t feel like your needle is floating most of the time, you have to ask yourself why not. A being on purpose is a very happy camper.

    Don’t confuse an ARC X needle with an F/N.

    We’re not your enemy. Enemies do not embrace their adversaries. Enemies do not feed you when you’re hungry, clothe you when you’re naked and shelter you when the rains fall. Our arms are open. As are our kitchens and homes. There is no disconnection here.

    We are not trying to destroy Scientology. That is being done by your master. We want you to pursue whatever philosophy and religion you choose. We want you to have the freedom to practice and express your beliefs. We want you to win. And smile. And enjoy life.

    Be honest with yourself. How do you feel? It’s okay to doubt. From doubt comes questions. And from questions come answers.

    Would you like all the gains you came into Scientology for? Are you honestly getting those gains?


    We are.

    It’s okay to doubt. Okay to question. Okay to find answers. That’s integrity.

    What do you really have to lose? Those left behind will soon follow. You don’t need to route out or suffer through weeks of sec checks. You don’t have to worry about free loader bills.

    If you’re reading this, you know what’s going on. Just get up and walk out. You just need to find a phone.


  82. Virgil Samms

    Jim, very astute and I think you hit the proverbial nail on the proverbial head IMO.


    How does that sum it up for ya? An inability to confront would make wonderful start for making robots.

    But I think it was not designed that way. I think DM hates the 2D, well, he hates all dynamics, except the 9th and he just knocked out the 2D period.

    I always said give me a junior that has kids, rather than one that doesn’t, just because their confront is higher. But the above datum explains why that is.

    Then, because of being in the Sea Org, you cannot visit your parents and this really puts you in a lower condition. Then knock out any semblance of the 5th dynamic, then the 7th dynamic and the next thing you know, the only dynamic that a Sea Org member operates off of is the 3rd and maybe the 4th. Even the 1st is knocked out.

    Talk about nonalignment with other dynamics. With all these dynamics out no one can confront.

    ML Tom

    ML Tom

  83. From what I have read over the years, a women by the last name of Taboyan was writing about this in 1998 re Int level abortions. I think it worked its way gradually down the lines. I know personally of a cycle from two to three years ago at Bridge where the wife was sequestered from the husband and brought to the “understanding” of an abortion. Also resulted in the split-up of the marriage.
    I am still getting my wits and confront around this area, but Jim Logan makes a really sharp observation in his entry just below on how this worm made its way into the fabric of the 3D. I don’t think it could be any sadder.

  84. tone 41

    The point you raise is an important one. It’s only right that we acknowledge the Times for this.

    In my 30 years as a scientologist, I never thought this kind of reporting by a legitimate, mainstream newspaper was going to happen regarding the church. Well, this past year has disabused me of many ideas regarding the church, but this one is a good one.

    Thank you to Joe Childs and Thomas Tobin
    for your professionalism and your guts, and to their paper, The St. Pete Times, for standing behind them and putting these stories on the comm lines of the world.

  85. Reminds me of tone scale drills.

  86. OEC/FEBC

    If you didn’t see it, you didn’t see it. Over that period of three years, perhaps there were no, or few, pregnant women pressured into abortions right there, under your nose.

    Or perhaps you were not privy to every personal thing going on with every woman of child-bearing age there and their personal conditions.

    Or perhaps the women so affected were made to remain quiet about their condition, and the resulting ” solution.”

    Or maybe, just maybe, there was a hell of a lot of
    “I don’t see anything wrong with this picture” going on around you, there in HGB in 91-94.
    Because there’s still a lot of that going there right now.

  87. This article really upset me. Not so much because of their stories, but because this is commonplace in the CoM. It breaks my heart that people must suffer beneath the iron fisted rule of that rat bastard. What breaks my heart further is that these people suffered at all. Natalie and Shelby are both brave, beautiful, and wonderful people who suffered at the hands of a tyrannical midget. I hope, with my entire being, that DM will be exposed and the church’s wrongs will somehow be righted through “wog” law that they think they are immune to. This woman and her daughter didn’t have to suffer. So many people who could have come into this world and been a shining light have been murdered at the hands of DM and his slathering bots. I am glad Natalie and Shelby told their stories. I am glad that they are free. I am glad all those other women who spoke about forced abortions are given justice by the law of the “wog” world and DM is sent to prison for fraud among other abuses. I hope that for every day that goes by that one more person is abused by DM is another day added to his sentence in jail. I hope that they string that SOB up by his toenails (or worse) and that he is met in prison by a man named Bubba that takes a fancy to him.

    Okay. I’m done.

  88. Virgil Samms

    And, this proves DM doesn’t listen to LRH, doesn’t understand LRH and can’t duplicate policy. He should know that he cannot mend a broken world with broken people.

    If he listened to LRH instead of being a criminal slave driver, the idea scene in the Sea Org would be all dynamics cared for and tended to. A Sea Org member with ALL dynamics in would be a giant. A Sea Org member with only one dynamic in would be a problem.

    These posts on the 2D really make it clear that DM can’t apply policy or tech.

    ML Tom

  89. Once: Oh man! This declaration should be framed.

  90. Michael, That was very well said. I know it
    will reach some, I hope many.

  91. David,
    One more reason to respect you. Well done.

  92. luna,
    Well there you go, observing the obvious and no doubt getting others to do the same. And where is this going to lead? Well pretty soon the very fabric of society is going to come undone that’s where!!!

    You are an Enemy of the State, that’s what you are. Yep, the State of Unconsciousness and Now We’re Supposed To. Damn, where do you people come from?!!

  93. “And, this proves DM doesn’t WANT to listen to LRH, doesn’t WANT to understand LRH”

    I fixed that for you 🙂

  94. At the very top of my list 🙂

  95. Natalie,

    You ARE the bomb!

  96. Hey Natalie,


    I can’t believe a certain “friend” has disconnected from you and basically from me at this point, for going indie and speaking out.

    Let me know if you’re ever heading our way for a visit! Our indie group is certainly growing and we would all look forward to seeing you again.


  97. Touche Natalie!

    Perfect interviews and perfect response! My hat’s off to you and Shelby!

  98. Ne,
    My friend. I understand. I do. Another darkness released to the light. We are all better for this.

    Thank you. And thank you and your wife for carrying on. I’m sure your children are as happy too!

    Smack, big kiss on all your cheeks.


  99. And it proves DM CAN’T understand LRH. ” After nearly a year of the truth being out here, it’s nice to understand the layers of this, isn’t it? Amazing how he wiped all the dynamics. It’s a done deal in the S.O. and it’s trickled down to CL V org level to a lesser degree, and now he’s at it with the public by making them wrong for having money and not turning it over to the church.

  100. I am so very thankful for Natalie, Christie, Sunny, Laura. And for all of these women who have come forward in these most recent blogs for having the courage to tell their stories.
    They are difficult but very important stories to tell. I can recall when over ten years ago when I began my self excel from CoS, it was the whispering of just such accounts, along with other items that made me realize that there was no more Scientology in Scientology, that there was no SO in the SO. That some kind of imposters had taken over and were calling itself something it was not. These stories from these women, as reported now were back then being talked about, which may have been these very same women, which makes it very poignant for me knowing what they must have had to go through without support at the time. And all this was for me was the major red flag that helped align all the other out point data that I had begun to discover at that time. Even today after all this time, I still reel at how an organization, any organization could sink to such depths. If anyone ever read DMSMH they would without a doubt know what the position of LRH is on this issue, and for a Scientologist, or a SO member who is held up as the top of the Scientology world would cave in to such aberration, and spew such obscenities toward a pregnant woman, well, it is beyond comprehension. I hope this time that we do not have to wait for another ten years before others come forward to tell their stories, that demand justice, and bring an end to this insanity.
    I am so glad that there are so many well spoken people here willing to speak out in support of these women. Willing to say that which has to be said, willing to say what needs to be said. I am glad to see that not only are these women here coming forward telling their stories, but also those who are revealing there unfortunate participation, this step toward reconciliation and healing is so important here and now. Maybe we are seeing the first steps toward a fulfilling of all our hopes and dreams.
    In the midst of hearing these tragic and maddening stories there is a ray of hope that this time we will stand up and take back the Scientology that was stolen from us. That in the future that at int base, and everywhere, there will be the laughter of children and families strong and loving and caring, not just for each other but for all the families there. That work and purpose includes all the dynamics working in harmony with love and compassion. In that kind of environment does the aims of Scientology gets rapidly accomplished.

  101. My gawd, Jim, that’s a keeper! I’m getting THAT one tatooed on my zorch!

    “Enemy of the State of Unconciousness.”

  102. I recently assisted a family in getting their daughter out of the Sea Org. The girl had been lied to by her recruiter (what else is new?), told that she “could have any post she wanted” and that she “would be able to see her family any time.” The recruiter also neglected to mention that she could never have children. Educating young people on the true nature of the Sea Org is vital, and I salute the brave women who have had the courage to make their stories known.

  103. Concerned Citizen

    I hereby nominate Tommy for an award.

    Since he has done so much single handedly to bring to light the fact the Church is undeniably corrupt. No one could have more skillfully made the point so crystal clear.

    He is in fact our best ally, every single time he contradicts himself, every single time he assures people that whistle blowers are all liars, when he implies that he is omnipresent and omniscient, he is able to be everywhere all the time and can read people’s mind too.
    Every time he insist on CofM’s pristiness, never ever has anything bad ever happened, the Church is the only perfect institution on the face the earth, the only group that never makes the wrong call, makes a mistake or has any problems whatsoever. This after telling everyone about the reign of terror created by Marty.

    Every time he insist there is no such thing as disconnection and then revises to explain there is “voluntary” disconnection ( voluntary as in voluntary income taxes, taking a page right out of the Fed’s play book, another hated institution)

    He truly illustrates our points so well, it is impossible to see him in action and not come to the conclusion the Church is rotten to the core

    Give it up for Tommy D. nothing less than a standing ovation for such a fine job

  104. Perhaps this gent summed it up-

    “Throughout history, it has been the inaction of those who could have acted; the indifference of those who should have known better; the silence of the voice of justice when it mattered most; that has made it possible for evil to triumph”
    –Haile Selassie

  105. Mockingbird6

    Haven’t read all the above but I have noticed something in these postings and others including other boards. Sometimes the discussion seems to be a rehash of pure Christian (and other) “saintly” attitudes about abortion.

    The question is not whether it’s legal or holy to have an abortion or not. The question is whether or not people were coaxed, forced, ordered, fooled, intimidated, coerced, punished, whatever, into having an abortion against their own free choice.

    Does anyone but me see this difference? I don’t mind that the “sanctity of life” button is being pushed. I have tender feelings on the point myself. But it is the human rights of the people being coerced that we are talking about here. Tip o’ the hat, M6

  106. Yes indeed….Let’s not forget this very basic reference from Ethics, justice and the Dynamics:
    “This gets so batty that in one of the South Pacific societies infanticide became a ruling passion. There was a limited supply of food and they wanted to keep down the birthrate. They began using abortion, and if this didn’t work, they killed the children. Their second dynamic folded up. That society has almost disappeared.

    These are acts calculated to be destructive and harmful to the survival of the people of the society.”

  107. Good point, Tom. And which one dynamic would that be in current? 😉

  108. Yes creating a Can’t have enviroment in turn creates envie when another being is pregnant. They see it as “She HAS a pregnancy”, can’t have that. That is not good for productivity. But all that is produced is more can’t have.

    They can have love for the leader nothing more.

    In Anon speak. It’s BatShit Crazy.

  109. martyrathbun09

    Mockingbird6, I see it and have been of that view all along.

  110. martyrathbun09

    Jah! Thank you for quoting such a wise and determined soul. One of my favorite, most inspiring, songs is Bob Marley’s lifting of Selassie’s UN speech and slight editing. Here are the lyrics:
    What life has taught me
    I would like to share with
    Those who want to learn…

    Until the philosophy which hold one race
    Superior and another inferior
    Is finally and permanently discredited and abandoned
    Everywhere is war, me say war

    That until there are no longer first class
    And second class citizens of any nation
    Until the colour of a man’s skin
    Is of no more significance than the colour of his eyes
    Me say war

    That until the basic human rights are equally
    Guaranteed to all, without regard to race
    Dis a war

    That until that day
    The dream of lasting peace, world citizenship
    Rule of international morality
    Will remain in but a fleeting illusion
    To be persued, but never attained
    Now everywhere is war, war

    And until the ignoble and unhappy regimes
    that hold our brothers in Angola, in Mozambique,
    South Africa sub-human bondage
    Have been toppled, utterly destroyed
    Well, everywhere is war, me say war

    War in the east, war in the west
    War up north, war down south
    War, war, rumours of war

    And until that day, the African continent
    Will not know peace, we Africans will fight
    We find it necessary and we know we shall win
    As we are confident in the victory

    Of good over evil, good over evil, good over evil
    Good over evil, good over evil, good over evil


  111. Natalie,
    I remember you from the CLO WUS. I remember when you were pregnant. I thought it was pretty cool and wished I would’ve said something to you. I’m not sure if I said anything to you when I was up in Seattle or not as I thought you and your ex husband were the perfect people to boom that org. Please accept my apology for not encouraging you at that time. On a similar note, I got married not long after you left and my ex and I figured that we would go to an Org versus an abortion. It’s funny thinking that way as I feel now that an abortion is not a good thing and I wouldn’t even consider it. It’s awesome that you’ve been willing to shine the light on the C of S regarding this.

  112. I know for a FACT that there are some SO who love to intimidate. I was a Class V Outer-Org Trainee at FSO, and the times that I saw SO SCREAMING at other SO, or at the OOTs, were counted at about 2 dozen. I never saw Mr. Davis there, so he couldn’t have known about them. I remember well the 15 meal breaks of cold chicken a-la-king, or rice and beans. Sometimes there would be just a tray of bread slices and a blob of peanut butter in the center. It got old REALLY fast. I spent 2 years there.

  113. My feelings alsoo.

  114. As an addendum to the above. Those many years ago , when I first heard the stories, the nebulousness, and namelessness of some of these stories at that time, that those people on those blogs in that time were truly praying for you, even though at the time we did not have a name or a face. It is great to see that you all went on to LIVE life in spite of it all. Your persistence and strength in the face of such suppression is a win and inspiration to all of us. One of my regrets is that I, at least, and perhaps many others, were not there to tell you to your face, that when you needed it most, that we support you and care for you.

  115. I’ve been poking a little fun at Tommy Davis today over that absurd statement about Sea Org members never being subjected to intimidation — a statement that is beyond ludicrous.

    However, I’d like for Tommy Davis to know that it actually pains me to see him taking all this guff on behalf of David Miscavige. I wish he’d just git out ‘the way and let Miscavige take the full brunt of his own well-earned derision. The same for Kendrick Moxon. Those guys are still young enough to enjoy their lives. It can’t be fun doing what they’re doing day after day.

    I wish Davis and Moxon would do a Rathbun and Rinder and let Miscavige reap the consequences of his own illegal and unethical behavior.

    (P.S. Big hugs to you, Natalie!)

  116. Splog I am so with you on this.

  117. I dear say the church is into kidnapping.

    Holding a minor to “route out” IS kidnapping.

  118. Amy’s Mom,

    Do you know the name of that messenger by any chance?

  119. Mike Lemeron

    Myself and many others went along with similar things and in the end we realize the truth. To denegrate ourselves merely follows the enemy’s intent. Flourish and prosper for we have learned and have learned the hard way.

  120. Mike Lemeron

    I am envious of the love you have in life, Natalie, I really am. Not in a bad way – maybe admiring of you is a more accurate description.

  121. This is complete musing on my part here … but I’ve often wondered if Shelly Miscavige’s maternal urges didn’t come to the fore and she somehow managed to get pregnant and insisted on keeping the child.

    Perhaps she’s holed up somewhere, hidden by DM who’s ashamed others will find out she’s rearing the child she insisted on keeping.

    I have no information at all. I’ve just often thought this would be a nicer story to imagine than one about another person rotting away in a Hole somewhere.

    Just Me

  122. Mike Lemeron

    If he had done absolutely nothing but tell people to do their jobs and merely thank them once a year for doing a good job, we would have a heck of a great Scn scene today.

  123. Me, too.

    Just Me

  124. LRH

    Deterioration of Liberty

    Marty do you have the transcripts of this ?

  125. LRH

    11 – The Consequences of

  126. Good point Li Po.

    That very reference raised an internal red flag for me – one of the outpoints which was put in the closet – when I was in and perceived the situation on this dynamic at the Int Base. Thanks for the reminder.

  127. very nice!

  128. M6,
    I do agree that self determinism is fundamental to all decisions in life. The issue gets a little more complex when you move from the area of ethics into morals. Since morals are based upon an agreement with others, then any self determined action must take into account its efects on the moral code one has agreed to.
    The 2D is a profound agreement between 2 thetans to create a future and involves the potential life of another. When the sex act is willingly engaged upon there has to be an understanding of the inherent responsibility to other beings. When those responsibilities are not addressed, the destrucion is not confined to a fetus.
    Where I personally draw the line in the sand is when a woman is told she has no rights in the decision. Whether she is forced to carry a child to term or abort it, both are aberrated and morally repugnant.
    The stories being told here are epic tragedies and I respect all those who were forced to make such a horrific choice. We can only hope for and work for the day when no woman will ever have to feel anything but joy in the prospect of a new life.

  129. “Life is easier on cogs than on independent souls, gives more support to those who go along than to those who speak out.” -Eric Maisel, Coaching The Artist Within.

    The above is true inside the church. Not true outside!


  130. Yup.


  131. Ne,

    Thank you for revealing that, what you did here today is what real responsibility is all about.

    This here blog is the next best thing to a confessional session, so I doubt there will be any disagreement from this group forgiving you for these overts you have given up.

  132. Tommy,

    “I would like to take this opportunity to remind you that you are the one who determines your own destiny. It is you who chooses your own future, it is you who holds firmly to your goals or lets them slip. It is you who insists upon receiving Standard Tech or tolerates shoddy substitutes. When all is said it is you who will be with yourself at the end. And it is you who will ask yourself, did I do right or did I do wrong? And the state you find yourself in will be the answer. Will you become a brighter person or a cinder? I cannot tell you to arrive at some high state. I cannot order you to be well or happy or affluent. I can only point out to you the route to what your innermost self desires. I have, through half a century of work, found the road out. I’ve done all I can to point the way. It is you who chooses or not to achieve a higher state. Standard Ethics will keep you and your friends on the straight road. Standard Policy will give you a powerful organization, expanding and prosperous. Standard Tech will take you into states of beingness where nothing can strike you down. In this minute particle of time we have the opportunity to reverse the downward spiral of life. It is you who will avail yourself of it or not. There is no longer any question if it is the right road. Countless people now have followed it with success. It is no longer a question whether Standard Ethics and Policy work. It is only a question of whether or not you apply them.” — LRH, ED 347 INT, RJ 37

  133. Freedom Fighter

    Boy, there’s one (or two or three) in every crowd, eh Jim?

    lunamoth, unless you can look in the mirror at a squeaky clean image, I suggest you take your rocks and throw them elsewhere. 1.1 comments like the one above serve no constructive purpose whatsoever. Marty and Mike are doing everything they can to take responsibility for the current scene. What, pray tell, are YOU doing about it other than taking back-handed swipes at those attempting to get the show back on the road? If you don’t give a crap about the show, then either go play some other game (somewhere else) or STFU.

  134. Mark,

    Question: Flag is right now issuing technical estimate of 100 hours objectives and 75 hours from ARC SW Exp to completion of Grade IV Exp.

    I mean… How come 100 hours for objectives and just 75 for all of expanded grades???? This makes no sense. The reason I was given is that in the recently released ACCs, LRH explains the importance of Objectives and how these are run. Still it violates LRH ED From Clear to Eternity where LRH mentions that the higher you go the more time the steps will take.

    Any input/clarification about this?


  135. I agree Mockingbird. But there is also a possibility that the coersion, force and trauma has brought a sanctiy of life button up to full boil.
    Speaking for myself I’m quite liberal on the issue of choice… however forced and coerced abortions are not choice and are pro-death to one or more dynamics.

    The very naure of the specific situation we are talking about her deals with the sanctity of life, it’s intertwined.

    I wouldn’t be sitting here pounding away on this response right now if this post was about the usual run of the mill DM human rights abuse.

    But as we all know abortion is one of those issues that have ended up in the political arena, where they do not belong and there are passionate views on both sides of the issue. It’s another handy little trick to keep the people carrying signs at political rallies that will never address the REAL disease.

    So we’re bound to attract some posters that would address this issue regrdless of what blog it appears on.

    In the case of Miscavige, again it is not THE issue but a specific that can be pointed to, to highlight the deeper abberations.

    All round, it’s a huge attention getter. The sanctity of life question is deeply personal and one that should be answered clearly by any woman who is considering her options.

    When those options are interfered with the ship takes a turn in to much darker legal waters. Simply because another potential life is involved.

    To the letter of the law, I believe a crime committed on a pregnant mother is often prosecuted on double charges.

    It’s complicated!

  136. OEC/FEBC,

    Of course you didn’t see it, anyone who was pregnant had to eat in the HGB stairwell which is exactly what happened to my wife’s sister who miscarried not long after being confronted by Int Execs on the matter of her pregnancy. Then she had to do conditions for becoming pregnant in the first place. How is it that becoming pregnant isn’t out-ethics anywhere but on planet-Miscavige?

    Just the threat of sending anyone who became pregnant to some far flung, small and failing org, with few possessions and no money was enough coercion to send some women to the abortionist. Many had to weigh up having their child against utter personal disaster, demotion and being stigmatized into the bargain. Do you think for one moment that those that buckled under the pressure advertised their abortions?

    But they should never have been put in such a postion, it’s inverted ethics at its worse, it is all upside down. A wonderful thing happens and you get punished but help leverage someone into having an abortion and you get a pat on the back.

    It’s an utter violation of basic human rights.

  137. martyrathbun09

    Here is my best guess. DM has some new wild hair up his ass. As with most of his wild hairs, it is in the direction of pounding the self-determinism out of people. Objectives take as long as they take. With TRs in on a relatively sane individual, I cannot imagine it taking more than an intensive or two max. This is simply another out tech, suppressive act albeit on a mass scale. LRH wrote a despatch to a project I was on in the early 80s. He said don’t try to figure out the logic of an insane person, you’ll just wind up spinning because there is no logic to the insane.

  138. martyrathbun09

    Freedom Fighter, I don’t how you get off on calling lunamoth’s comment 1.1. I think it was mimicry of the 1.1s we are dealing with (DM, TD, et al).

  139. Marty,

    Just got this email from ASHO Day. I thought it very apropos to the subject of this thread; kids. The hypocrisy is killing me! And as always, it’s about the money–IO

    “Question: What would it be worth to save a child from getting diagnosed
    with a behavioral disorder and being put onto psychotropic drugs and
    instead to get that child onto a study of Scientology study tech and

    **YOU CAN PREVENT THIS FROM HAPPENING – The most effective tool we have
    in this fight is KNOWLEDGE. That means getting the DVD called Making a
    Killing – the Untold Story of Psychotropic Drugging into the hands of
    teachers, school principals, law enforcement officials, government
    officials, anyone who can help us end the insanity that has 10 million
    United States school children on some kind of behavioral drugs.

    If you have a child, go find them right now and hug them. Ask yourself
    if you would want to have your child on mood-altering drugs. And make a
    donation right now to the fight to save the coming generation of our
    children from being made into illegal pcs or worse.

    1 MARKETING OF MADNESS DVD $15 donation
    12 DVDs $165
    24 DVDs $300
    48 DVDS $585
    96 DVDs $1140
    (Californians please add tax)

    If you “can’t afford to donate right now”, please go back to your answer
    to the original survey question in this email and donate right now.
    Reply back by email or please call:
    Jon De Vries
    LRH Materials Consultant
    Church of Scientology
    American Saint Hill Day Org
    1413 L. Ron Hubbard Way
    Los Angeles, CA 90027

    © 2010 CSWUS. All Rights Reserved. LRH,, L Ron Hubbard, Saint Hill and
    Scientology are trademarks and service marks owned by Religious
    Technology Center and are used with its permission.

    If you want to be removed from this mailing address ask by return
    message and cc

  140. Freedom Fighter

    Sorry about that! Read it wrong. (blush) Scratch that, lunamoth. 🙂

  141. Yesterday and today I’ve read every comment on the blog. It is very admirable that these women spoke about a subject that is hard to communicate about. Maybe that is what the Suppressive, David Miscaviage, hoped. Maybe he thought that no one had the courage to speak out. Well he thought wrong!!!!

  142. Hi lunamoth,

    I so agree! The authors and the paper have shown real courage and real integrity, refusing to be silenced by DM’s mafia. That they have only attacked the C of M and have not attacked, overtly or covertly, LRH or the tech and philosophy of Scn, while relentlessly exposing the unethical and criminal acts of the C of M. To that extent, they are our allies, allies of independent Scientologists everywhere. We’ll have to invite Childs and Tobin to some big Independents’ celebration when we have one. 🙂

  143. Natile and Shelby,
    Thank you for sharing your stories.
    I think the fact that the church has changed it’s policies concerning children in the SO at all since LRH passed is an enough of an outpoint in itself to discredit the church and warrant an investigation into the matter.
    Harry Nesje

  144. Freedom Fighter,

    Lunamoth is as far from 1.1 as you can get! You must have mis-read her comment.

  145. “The greatest ability in the whole human race and all amongst the livingness is the ability to help. And when you can improve that ability all the way up along the line, you’ve improved about all there is to improve about a person” LRH

  146. DFB,

    Wow, what talent we have here in this theta group! I’d love to hear the entire rock opera when it’s done. Keep us posted!

  147. I am not a scientologist, nor have I ever been one, but this is the issue that captivated me (along with family disconnection and teenagers being recruited into the Sea Org) after the Tom (WTF?) Cruise video motivated me to learn more about Scientology. I have long believed that this is THE issue which will grab public attention. I am “pro-choice” (emphasis on the word choice). My sister is active in the anti-abortion movement – and it is interesting that our mutual shock and horror of this practice within scientology is one of the few instances that we absolutely see eye-to-eye when it comes to abortion.

    My heart goes out to all 4 of the women who spoke out in these articles, as well as enormous admiration for the courage displayed by all – each in her own way and in her own time.

  148. Natalie,

    Perfect response to Tommy! You and your entire family are so sane. VWD on seeing what you see, maintaining your integrity, and keeping your daughter safe.

  149. Ne,

    All we can ever do is take responsibility for what we’ve done in the past. You’ve done that. And it doesn’t get better than that. What a man you are!


  150. Amy’s Mom,

    As shocking as this is, it fits right into what we’ve heard about the culture created by DM and his mafia. It’s absolutely disgusting, of course. Maybe you should publicize the name of that CMO Messenger. She has truly added evil to the world.

  151. CD,

    Thanks for posting this. Tommy is an abyssmal spokesman. He always reminds me of a weasel. Or maybe a snake.

    One of these days maybe you should get together with an Independent who can give you a session so you can see for yourself whether it works. You might be surprised. 🙂

  152. Tony DePhillips

    Great reference Li Po and great cog Jim!!

    You can see the PTS/SP tech at work here. DM gets the group to committ enough overts and then they go into mutual out ruds on him committing overts and everyone sort of loses their way and becomes “blind”.

    It is really great that so many people are waking up and SEEING what has been going on and still going on now.


  153. FF,
    I tried to be as obviously goofus as I could and yet it wasn’t enough I see. Sorry dude, I was cracking wise with luna’s comment. In a positive way.

    Read it again. Maybe take a breath, suck it up, and apologize to lunamoth.

    You have to keep an eye on me and my posts. I can’t seem to settle on a tone and find myself able to fluidly move all over the place.

  154. Like Marty says … it takes as long as it takes – you are done when you are done.

    Grades 0,1 & 2 are fairly long levels.

    75 hrs? Man … my grades were very long, but back then every item of every process was run – reading or not. Triples had just come in. Then more joy when we all got quaded up … yes, every item of every process … and we had to ‘quickly’ check the other 3 flows before running flow zero Yikes!!

  155. Tony DePhillips

    Dedicated to Marty and all the courageous ladies!!

  156. Ne Obliviscaris

    As has been mentioned already, DM is “Executive C/Sing” to his own case level.

    As you know one of the better definitions of sanity is, someone who is willing to control and be controlled.

    Obviously DM is not willing to be controlled and compulsively runs control on others. He probably knows (in an abstract way) how running control on people runs them on the DEI to CDEI scale. Thus bringing about a (albeit unwanted) “Reverse vector of the physical universe” whereby those beiing controlled seemingly “pull in” the unwanted bridge actions, reg cycles, etc.

    By C/Sing retread/overruns on objectives he is stuck at “enforce” of control on others.

    My prediction is that it will backfire and PC’s will be less willing to be controlled than ever.


  157. Charles,

    This is from one of the Class VIII tapes (1 Oct 1968):

    “Out-Tech normally stems from some kook who gets an opinion. And he thinks freedom of think has something to do with truth.” – LRH

    Ever notice how there never was a Class VIII “Golden Age of Tech” Course?

  158. Natalie, you do not have to apologize to anyone any place for looking out after your child. That is not only your right, it is your duty.

    Shelby, I admire you for wanting to become more valuable and help people get up the bridge. In the last month I have crossed roads with three former Sea Org Members. As you know with the hours, a Sea org member works twice what an ordinary citizen does in hours. So, for every year a person spends in the Sea org you actually have to double it to report a work record. Between these three Sea org Members, each putting in 20 to 25 years of labor, they worked 150 years and none of them even got onto the solo course. One of them only through a drug rundown. Two of them tossed onto the street, one had the power to leave in their own.
    That is what evidence I have met up with in the last month, of the pledge of allegience to that group.

    You CAN HAVE everything you dreamed of for yourself and others. The CAN’T HAVES were run on you as soon as you arrived and asked to use a telephone. They only would have grown. And CAN’T HAVE Scientology would have been on the top of this list.

  159. Jim, You sure can pull some great stuff out
    of that hat of yours.

  160. … and don’t believe the current hype that Flag is putting out about length of Grades, or to Clear, or anything else to do with the time it takes to complete levels … this is totally OUT TECH.

    …. and what the heck is Flag doing the heavy promotion on completed Clears & offering grades? It cuts right across Org lines/finances/etc.

    Reminds me of the Flag tours coming to town and regging every Tom, Dick & Harry for their L’s

  161. Marty,

    I’ve been teaching that concept to a dear friend of mine who has a crazy person to deal with:

    “It is a fundamental error to seek reason where madness dwells.” – Me

    Michael A. Hobson

  162. I’m afraid my my first thought was “Gawd he’s young”. Then I looked in a mirror 😦
    Don’t let DM see this or it will probably wind up as a new SO drill!

  163. Mareka James


    Well done Natalie and Shelby! Your story was so moving and really communicated the harm and human rights abuses that the CofM commits towards families.

    Here’s to ending all that!

    Cheers 🙂

  164. My Gawd!
    Tommy Davis is a complete moron!
    He should have been “shelved” after that “demonstration.”
    Any Scientologist with any E-meter and TR training at all could could have handled that better. He is a flippin’ embarrasment!

  165. Exactly!
    Just apply KSW #1 and…
    Make sure everyone is doing their job.
    Eliminate (not create) all suppressive influences from affecting staff and public.
    Allow SO members freedom and reasonable hours and pay.
    Reinstate the Hasi and eliminate the IAS.
    Play the B’day game not the Idle Org game.
    Make all Orgs truly “the friendliest places on earth. Report all crimes committed by staff or public to the authorities.(Except those given in session).
    Apply standard Admin,Tech and Ethics and “think” with the data!
    Damn its so easy….I nominate myself as the next
    “Leader”. All I ask is food and shelter and a happy family life with time for fishing and taking my youngest to his sporting events.
    Oh yeah, medical,dental and a quiet cabin to retire to when I’m put out to pasture.

  166. LRH says. In HCO PL23 October 1969 PROGRAMMING :

    “MAXIM SEVEN: The best programme is the one that will reach the greatest number of dynamics and will do the greatest good on the greatest number of dynamics. And that, my people who want to become victims by going broke, includes dynamic one as well as dynamic four.”

    Ever heard this Maxim read at IAS or Ideal org fundraising events?

    As a maxim it should hold some degree of seniority shouldn’t it?

    DM has made the 3rd and 4th Dynamics trump th 1st and 2nd. Its BS and Jeff should see this.
    Without a fully functioning and happy 1st and 2nd the higher Dynamics will cave in, this is exactly what is happenning to the Church now.
    Its not Rocket Science DM needs to clear his MU’s on the HQS.(prior to going in session for the first time in 30 years)

  167. martyrathbun09

    Thanks Tony, one of our favorites.

  168. Freedom Fighter

    Sorry guys and Lunamoth! My bad. Marty, thanks for calling me out on it. That’s what I get for multitasking after having been up since 2:30a.m. (and letting my TRs drop out . . .).

    Lunamoth, I hope you’ll accept my apology.

    Where do I sign up for one of those tattoos? 🙂

  169. “she didn’t leave Scientology. She just arrived”
    Quote of the year!
    That sums it up.
    Well done Natalie. THANK YOU!

  170. TheEmperorIsNaked

    SPs don’t have the luxury of self examination.

  171. Here’s a major outpoint in the email copied above regarding the DVDs: If the intention was really to get tons of them into peoples hands, they wouldn’t be “charging” these outrageous rates!!!

    A DVD costs less than .50, possibly even under .25!
    Then just add postage and now look at how many you could get out to others!!

    This type of thing has bothered me for a long time.


  172. Thanks, that is what I thought.

    They even step on their own foot with all the weird things they are putting out. A friend of mine was lured out of a class V org to go clear in Flag in one month!! (he was at HRD level before the grades!)

    Yet, when he arrived to Flag they asked him to pay 100 hours to redo objectives hahahaha an so he returned to the his Class V org Dah!

  173. Omigod, Freedom Fighter – forget it! I wouldn’t let a truly 1.1 comment slide, either. We’re fine.

    In rereading my post I can see how one could take it that way and am just really really glad Jim and Marty both duplicated the spirit in which it was offered. I can see that COULD have gone either way, but fortunately these guys are getting to know me…

  174. Hey, how about we don’t talk about Jeff like he’s not in the room? I’d say the proper place to have taken this up would have been the thread on Jeff’s blog where he INVITED YOUR OPINION on this.

    This thread is about something else entirely, and, as I said, Mr. Hawkins is in the friggin’ room with you all.

  175. I’d call it sexual discrimination and last I checked it’s very illegal!
    I’m so sorry for your loss, ML.

  176. It would also classify as sexual harassment in my book.

  177. The contradictions and proofs stick out clearly when you pull them out of the lies and PR BS, don’t they?!
    Great stat analysis!

  178. Wayyyyyyyy Cool!

  179. One of the absolute best Mother’s Day cards I got was last year from my 15 yr old…brought me to tears.

    On the front was a picture of a bridge with 3 stick bodies falling down off the bridge. It said “My friends, all jumping off a bridge.”
    On the bridge is one stick body that says, “Me, not doing it.”
    It’s so easy to copy or go into agreement with crazy crap going on – I know. Been there, done that, wish I hadn’t but accept that I did.

  180. Hi everyone!

    Thanks so much for all of the support. I can’t believe so many people have read/watched this and all these comments have popped up in a matter of 24 hours!

    I’m soooo glad that my mom is not and never was the type to follow orders, I owe her my life for that. Thanks mom!

    I really hope this article opens up the eyes of many of my friends that are still in the church being treated the same way I was. It’s a shame to think that they’re still going through it, I’ll do what I can to help them out.

    This whole situation has really opened my eyes to what lengths the church will go to in order to make themselves look good. It’s so frustrating hearing their lies about things that I know to be true. But that’s just the thing, I know what I know and they’re only making themselves look worse by contradicting the reality of the situation. I think Tommy Davis needs to get with it and see what’s really happening.

  181. TheEmperorIsNaked

    Very few public have money and won’t turn it over to the church. That is a myth spread amongst staff. The public is deeply in debt. Already deeply in debt they go to events and are made wrong for not going deeper in debt.

    And deep in debt, their attention is stuck in the past, exactly as LRH warns in the Finance Series. Oops.

    The public is pretty messed up too by all this. Granted, no forced abortions, but the DM wrecking ball swings pretty wide. And with the public driven so deeply into debt, how many are forced to decide they can’t have kids because they just can’t afford it?

    And the overts work down the org board all the way to the public, so as pointed out earlier, we become blind to the overall problem.

  182. Excellent reminders. I quit trying to figure out crazy and am trying to teach that to my kids. Figuring out crazy a’int gonna happen!

  183. So true. I bought a bunch of different PrisonPlanet type DVDs for a dollar each on ebay when I wanted to find out about the info. Basically I covered postage…
    Also, it would be “the Church’s” responsibility to get programs into the state governments to get into the schools. They don’t do any of that. Parishioners would help, but the Church would have the program and do the leg work getting it in.
    Lies, lies, lies, yeah, they’re gonna get ya!

  184. Natalie and Shelby, thanks for sharing your story with SPT. It gave me insight and reality I never had before about what young kids go through getting recruited.
    You did real good!

  185. Sarge, Thank you for letting me know, and for bestowing me with the trust and honor as sacred as mother, i.e., friend !!

  186. Aw, thanks but if I’m the theta queen it’s because I see other’s crowns:) Love this song. And ‘xactly! crack dealers need their Mamas!! 🙂 To woop their backside 🙂 Whatever culture, whatever experience, whatever language … if it’s theta operating the form, Love is universal. It is not an emotion, it’s life.

  187. Brilliant Marty!
    I love Bob Marley and here is the song to back you up!

  188. Moving Forward

    I was at the HGB for part of that same time and I didn’t see it either, but I knew for sure that getting pregnant was not considered okay and that ‘being fired to a Class V org’ was considered tantamount to leaving the SO by most (and at best, just incredibly out-ethics). ‘Baby boomers’, as they (we, I suppose) were sometimes called, were very much shunned, despite what Tommy Davis said. It was considered betrayal.

    Of course, if you got pregnant and got an abortion, would you have talked about it? No way. So of course you wouldn’t hear about it if you weren’t involved.

    I knew Laura’s husband, but had no idea any of that had happened. I also found out rather after the fact that 4 women I knew had gotten abortions.

    As for ‘forcing’ abortions, one can mince words and say that no one had a gun literally held to their head, but the pressure is immense. The coercion was real and did happen. The yelling in your face about how damned out-ethics you are was real.

    Maybe my senior only once ever asked me about abortion, but that was one time too many. She asked (very, very angrily, I might add) why I wasn’t getting one — could you imagine that happening anywhere else??? My response was vehement enough that she didn’t ask me again. But she sure as hell hated me for it and wasn’t afraid to show it.

    Maybe the SO Members who stopped talking to me when the found out I was pregnant never mentioned abortion, but they didn’t need to. I damned well got the point that it would have been so much ‘better’ had I gotten one. In fact, I now recall someone even saying this to me once. It’s incredibly inhuman and entirely not Scientology to treat pregnant women this way.

    The church’s response in these articles pissed me the hell off. Flat out denials that these things never, ever happened, that pregnant women are well taken care of and supported is such BS.

    I am so through with pretending that I need to ignore these things because they will ‘be corrected eventually’ and ‘it’s better for Scientology if we act like nothing happened’ — because that’s the big lie.

  189. I mend Mockingbird. I must have been reading comments too fast.

  190. Actually what comes through in this song by 2Pac is the humbling moment when one realizes what a gift it is to be loved, unconditional love.

    Speaking for myself, and I think universally, too, the realization of that amazing gift inspires a desire to do right … it is stronger than any force or duress or agreement, the loyalty born from being truly loved. It’s the most noble fabric of any being. It’s the closest thing to what a being is IMHO (love …closest thing to life itself, or maybe it is life itself)

  191. But the survival of any particular group does not necessarily constitute “the greatest good for the greatest number of Dynamics”.

    That’s why a person needs to apply the Doubt formula to decide whether in his judgement, the group deserves to survive.

    There are, after all, 8 Dynamics.A group is just a 3rd Dynamic, and actually maybe an insignificant part of a larger 3rd Dynamic, much less a part of Everything That Exists, including God.

    The fact that group members tend to inflate each other’s self-importance has nothing to do with an honest, objective evaluation of what the”greatest good for the greatest number of Dynamics” might actually be.

    For example, if currently active OSA members and other DM sycophants like the professional rip-off artists of the IAS were to do such an objective Doubt formula, I don’t doubt they would as one commit what the Japanese call “hara-kiri” immediately. At least if they had any sense of honor left they would.

  192. DM did not actually “get the chance”. He stole a job that was not rightfully his. It is a daily reminder to him of the crimes he committed and the people he destroyed to get to where he is.

    Thus he degrades it. It is a stolen “possession” he cannot do anything else with, but destroy. He cannot value it because he did not earn it.

    And he keeps destroying, because he cannot admit being wrong.

  193. Do you suppose she was exactly “communicating” what she heard Dear Leader Miscavige express on the subject?

    That is the hat of a CMO Messenger, isn’t it?

  194. Theo Sismanides

    Natalie and Selby,

    If everyone did what you did and took responsibility as you did the place would be a better place.

    thanks a lot!

  195. Theo Sismanides

    I meant to say the “World” would be a better place!

  196. The greatest good for the greatest number of dynamics —

    I believe that this must be worked out in conjunction with a correct and effective handling of suppression.

    I believe this because when a person is constrained, oppressed and faces factors in their environment over which they do not believe they have control, then they work through those conditions from the point of view that they have to “work around” those unhandled conditions.

    And that nullifies the correct use of ethics.

    And that’s why suppression has to be handled BEFORE a person starts reviewing the greatest good for the greatest number of dynamics.

    But that is not being done as a first step.

    So personal integrity goes out the window and the ends justify the means (and the suppression.)

  197. martyrathbun09

    Shelby, Thank you!

  198. Thought Provoking

    WOW! I just got that. Amazing how much you don’t see when you are under supression. So much attention is simply in survive mode that one can miss the obvious. Thanks, this brought some understanding in on a past missed understanding.

  199. Thought Provoking

    Your comments about unconditional love are so true to me.

    I missed this as a basic to ARC with my own child and nearly lost her having already spent 10 years of her life doing drugs and committing crimes.

    It was only after receiving unconditional love from family after I blew my post that I realized its power to heal.

    Even though my daughter and I had not communicated for almost five years (unusual disconnection situation) and neither of us knew how to find the other, I just kept flowing unconditional love to her. I gave my ex my cell number (even though I was declared) in case he ever heard from her. Three months later, we found each other. She sent a simple text on Mother’s Day, “I love you!”

    She was still a druggie but was actively trying to change and together, we came up through her conditions. She had been trying to do this on her own for over five years and couldn’t.

    It has been three years now and she is completely drug free, going to college and doing fantastically after blowing school in the 8th grade. She has a beautiful son and is an incredible mother. I am very proud of her!

    I never would have had this opportunity if I had not given her my unconditional love. And it truly is “unconditional”, the ultimate in granting beingness!

    It is the key to rehabilitation of our society.

  200. Thought Provoking

    Thank you for coming forward. It explains why some wouldn’t see anything at all.

    I’m sorry you had to experience that entheta. I’m sure more and more will share their stories showing how truly rampant the abortions were.

    These past few days have brought up some BPC and we need to turn the speed up on the whistleblowing so that we can feel some of the justice kicking in.

    For all you beautiful beings out there who were so badly treated please know that you are loved and that we on the outside are here to help defend your honor. We will not quit until the abuses are gone and true Scientology is restored.

  201. I distrust any sentence that has”for the greatest good” in it

  202. Written words such as emails, and blog comments can often be misunderstood because facial movements, body language, voice tone, and other indicators of intent and emotion are missing. Except maybe in rare people who are very good writers, such as LRH. But most of us have trouble with it from time to time.

  203. Magic 8-ball says…”you are correct”.

  204. Interesting tidbit from this morning. Very early this morning AOL headlined and referred to the following link:|htmlws-main-n|dl1|link1|

    Within an hour or so, said headline and link were utterly removed from the AOL homepage.

    I guess the CofM still has some 1984 style hooks into portions of the internet community.

    Deny…deny…deny…all you want boys. The truth will set us all free. Too bad it only pisses the dmbots off. C’mon dmbots, take your medicine. It’s just a little teeeny bit of truth about what’s really going on. Don’t take my word for it…check out axiom 38…”Thus we see that failure to discover Truth brings about stupidity.”
    Ya’ll don’t wanna end up stupid do ya?
    Oooops…too late.

  205. Jim I think that is alsoo very 2D protecting other children that your own from harm. 🙂

  206. Thought Provoking, Wow! Thank you so much for sharing this story! What a beautiful story of triumph… it was a gift reading your post, and I agree with you, it is the key.

  207. lookingin, there’s a link to Mary Tabayoyen’s affidavit at the wiki link I posted above.

  208. Concerned Citizen


    I was not talking about Jeff as if he were not in the room, please re-read the post, I actually adressed him directly:

    “with all due respect to you Jeff”

    Additionally, this is not a commentary on his position, this is something I was made to think of by reading the last 2 threads, and it is a very relevant conversation if you read the other posts. Why do people do that?

    I mentioned his post to illustrate one theory that has been advanced. I don’t even entirely disagree with him, I see that people have interpreted this datum to mean all kind of things, such as – “The ends justify the means” as he points out, and/ or “the survival of the group above all else” or “Whatever Miscvige says” etc.
    And I agree with Valkov. if you read the post well, these people may think they are evaluating things for the “greatest good for the greatest number of dynamics” but they are assuming this, not looking for real and so are in fact not doing so because their behavior is not resulting in improved survival for all dynamics, which is what should result.

    I believe I have a right to state my opinion on the matter. And I’m not challenging Jeff at all, I’m participating in the conversation at hand, that is all.

  209. Concerned Citizen,

    Absolutely agree and I’m sorry for the “shotgun” comm. I was actually not addressing you.

    Carry on conversating!


  210. Very witty!

  211. Good at math!

  212. Tommy Davis is actually quoted: “No Sea Org member has ever been subject to intimidation”.

    This is a good one. Everyone in Scientology can watch their Church Executive lie straight faced.

    How humiliating.

    I feel like he is a little rag doll being flung about. His mother must be devastated watching him propped up to lie on national television this way.

    Not that many people are paying any attention.

    Who is really paying any attention to the Scientologists? A handful in society. The rest are watching Housewives of New Jersey.

    Not that they would have a Mission in their neighborhood anyway…… Not that the Church has not collected lots of 40,000.00 donations for Mission Packages , they have. There should be hundreds of Missions now. Thousands. People have paid for them! 40,000.00 for 200.oo worth of div 6 books!
    Tons of missions have been paid for!

    And it’s a good thing there are not any new missions popping up. That might bring in new people, who watched Tommy lie, to find out he was lying. So they keep the missions off the map and the new people from coming in to find out .

    With every lie they tell, they have to intend someone does not find out. The more people that come in, the bigger the chance of getting busted. That is why the missions are gone and you have not seen an ad for Dianetics or Scientology in over two decades.

    And with everyone at home watching Housewives of New Jersey, things are under control……

  213. Shelby you are an amazing young woman, and a voice for the children who can not speak.

    Coerced abortion is an internationally recognized human rights abuse. My appreciation and my love goes out to the women who also shared their heart breaking stories, and to the countless others who suffered this abuse.

    I found my voice with the help of all of you, and those who have spoken out before me.

    You are a bunch of rock stars who continue to rock my world!

    To David Miscavige I’d like to ask, how does it feel to have the whole world seeing you for who and what you really are?

  214. As an ITO trainee I had to walk up and down those stairs several times a day – we were not allowed to use the elevators. I also never saw anyone eating in the stairwell. Ever.

    It sounds like this stuff was after my time, that the abortion culture started at INT and worked its way down. The rank and file SO members, the ones I interacted with personally and professionally for 3 years, would have been horrified by a wog getting an abortion; for an SO member it would have been unthinkale. Clearly the culture changed significantly.

    Another thing I never saw at the HGB was an SO member physically assault another SO member, like Mark has described at INT. I saw (and was often the target of) lots of yelling and plenty of heavy ethics, but never any assualts. Clearly things elevated after I moved on.

    I thank everyone for responding to my original post.

  215. theystolemychurch

    Personally ~ I am with “Once Upon A Time”………

    We’re not your enemy. Enemies do not embrace their adversaries. Enemies do not feed you when you’re hungry, clothe you when you’re naked and shelter you when the rains fall. Our arms are open. As are our kitchens and homes. There is no disconnection here.

    Do you need a place? We may be out of the way, but it is safe, friendly and we have LOTS of kids!!!! Oh, and I sure can cook! Come on! Dogs will keep dmbots away…

  216. Concerned Citizen

    Big hug lunamoth

  217. Just pointing out that snatching someone’s kid, and refusing to release the child to the parent on demand, is called KIDNAPPING.

    And as long as you are living in this country, you have duties and obligations as a citizen of this country and you ARE subject to the laws of this nation.

    Kidnapping is against the law and that is going to be a lock down offense.

    If anyone in the Sea Org thinks kidnapping is O.K. and they can get away with it because they have “different laws” they are hallucinating.

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