Lisa Hamilton Speaks

Lisa was a stable terminal for many staff and public in the LA area, in fact, across the entire Western United States.  In that part of the world, if you said Senior HCO the person that came to mind was Lisa.  A 22 year Sea Org Veteran, she was respected, admired and loved for her ability to apply standard tech (especially ethics) to those she was working to help.  And that is perhaps the one word that sums her up – help. For the benefit of the individual.  She left the Sea Org with her husband in 2008. She explains why.  This is an “on the ground” report of how the C of M has perverted Scientology.  If you know Lisa, you will also know that this is utterly devoid of hype or overstatement.

 Mike Rinder

I realize some people are wondering what happened to me and are being given slanted data.  I know some of my friends have been told not to talk to me as I am “not in good standing.”  If you fall into this category and are following that order, I do not hold it against you in the least.  I still consider you my friend, and as a friend, I ask you not to violate your integrity either way. 

With that said, I do want to say a few things for myself.  I am not writing here to state that I am perfect, or all my overts were justified.  I am just here to communicate and do believe, as LRH says, that that is the universal solvent.

My husband Mark and I are well.  We live in northern Nevada (Gardnerville to be exact).  It is a very small town and surrounded by mountains, lakes, rivers and all the outdoor activities that go with them.  I work at a local Veterinary Hospital, which is great.  I have gained quite some skills and am helping to improve the lives of animals and their owners.  I have always been very strongly oriented on the 5th dynamic – actually, as strong as I am on the 3rd dynamic.

Over the years, I let certain dynamics go by the wayside, resulting in my dynamics becoming misaligned and out of balance.  And I have handled that.  Those who know me, know I have a very strong help button, so now help is evenly spread across my dynamics and that is best.  I am involved in many activities in this regard.

It is true that Mark and I blew from the Sea Org in July 2008.   At this point, I am not going to get into a lot of specifics as to why, but I felt that I could no longer fulfill my responsibilities as a Sea Org member and maintain my own personal integrity unless I stated what I know. 

I remember sitting in an international event in 2008 and watching the “stats” being presented that such and such org (ASHO, Pasadena, Steven’s Creek, etc.) has so many new people coming in every so many minutes.  I looked over at my husband after one statement about ASHOD and saw his eyebrows raise in astonishment and we looked at each other and said, “Wow, that’s not true.”    Come on, the Bodies in the Shop were going down, the Captain and staff were counting other org’s SO members on the BIS, Paid Completions, Paid Starts and other stats as a stat-push and to save their bacon in case their Basics sales were down.   To hear the head of our group utter such blatant falsehoods to staff and public made me feel ashamed and embarrassed to be a Sea Org member.

You see, we had been in those orgs – old building, new building – they were empty and doing poorly.  These are orgs such as the ones I mentioned above, plus Hawaii, Salt Lake City, Portland, Denver, Phoenix, Santa Barbara, Mountain View, Washington DC, Vancouver, Chicago and more.  Some better than others, but none booming.    If you don’t believe me, do what LRH says – go find out for yourself – go into a few orgs and LOOK.  Go at different times.  Go look at their stats. 

I know the staff WANT to play the Birthday Game for blood, but how can you win that game when you are being forced off post to reg for the IAS, reg for the “Ideal Orgs”, reg for “Superpower”, reg for extra Basics packages, and for who knows what else.  I mean, you are told you are out-ethics if you say you would rather do your post!  Scientology is supposed to be a game where everybody wins, but with these off-policy orders, it’s near impossible.  And to any staff or public who I pressured from my post to give money for any of these things, when you did not have it and would rather have used it to go up the The Bridge, please accept my apology.  I am deeply sorry.  It was an overt product.

While I am at it, I would also like to apologize to any staff or public who I rotely misapplied policy to, disregarding you as an individual.  I continue to make an effort to personally contact people and take responsibility and boy does that blow charge on both sides!  LRH is right: the EXACT time, place, form and event does as-is things.

“What is true for you, is true for you” is a profound statement.  Think of that in reference to your own case gain and your own personal integrity.  It has NOTHING to do with being forced to do something you don’t agree with, NOTHING to do with being made to disconnect from someone just because they believe something different than you, NOTHING to do with being made to say something you did was an overt because someone else said so.  

LRH never said, maintaining your personal integrity was going to be easy – when you get a few threats, subtle blackmail and you are told one sentence of one policy to prove you are wrong or have to comply, then you can really cave yourself in.  Just know that the BEST part about it is, though, that YOU have to agree, YOU have to toe the line, YOU have to be the one to cave yourself in.  Anyone else being cause over you is a cop out.  You have to agree to be suppressed, right?

As I stated earlier, I want to avoid getting into specifics at this time, but I do want to make a statement in regard to the treatment of some “undesirable” staff.  PAC received many staff not wanted at Flag or Int.  Those who had gotten in trouble at Int were sent to PAC to be posted on low, low posts.   There are many of those who had been in PAC for YEARS and were still not allowed out of lower conditions.  Even though they had enough signatures and had excellently applied their conditions, they had to have one final signature from the “top man” or else they were not allowed to say they were complete.  Sometimes he would not respond to their conditions for months – sometimes longer.  Then even when some of these staff were “out of lower conditions” they were not allowed to move up the org board or take a Tech post as they were “not to be trusted” – how so, if they were out of lower conditions and had been productive on post?    One person was sent to Flag for Supervisor training, but when an inspection was done by the “top man” and he saw that person, he sent him back to PAC – just like that.   

This is not to mention those older staff who were sent to PAC so they would not be seen at Flag or Int and cause a “bad impression” or whatever the reason.  One day a dozen or so elderly SO members were suddenly herded onto a plane, without being asked or given time to collect all their belongings and sent to PAC.  Most of them were heartbroken.   Similar actions were done with staff who were seriously ill.  Being part of an organization that treats people who had dedicated their lives to the cause, and who now because of their physical limitations, were being so callously “transferred”, was a source of both anger and grief for me. 

There are many other things that were enforced upon public and staff that I did not agree with.  Arbitraries of who you who could or could not communicate to or what you could or could not read.  This was applied particularly heavily on SO members, where communication was screened, some not being able to talk to certain family unless someone else was present, not being able to read anything negative in print, being gotten inside if anyone showed up to the PAC Base to protest – didn’t you all wonder about the protester with the sign  – “Why did Rinder run?”  — I know I did.  Disconnection policy (yes Tommy Davis, the Church DOES enforce it) was enforced.  I know personally about that, through having my communication so controlled that I sounded unnatural when I was trying to handle a family member, which made the situation even worse.    

I was Snr I&R, I was Snr HAS – and before that, many posts – Snr Qual Sec, HAS, Qual Sec, etc.  I have been up and down the org board, but was definitely proudest of my time in Snr HCO where I was working with and helping staff and public improve their lives.  NO, I was not perfect and yes, I made mistakes.  I did try to make up for my mistakes.  I can safely say in this area, I did much more good than harm.   I know there are those out there who are thankful for my hand in improving their lives and there are those who trusted that I had their best interest in mind.

I still do.

That is why I have to say something.  I have been out of the SO for almost 2 years.  I have not said anything until now, but it has been pointed out to me by some friends that that in itself may be an overt.

So, I am here to state that I am no longer a member of the “official” Church organization as I cannot back up the current MEST-oriented and wasteful actions which,     too often, override the individual going up The Bridge.  I am no longer in agreement with the arbitraries in going up The Bridge (how many times do you have to re-do something after you have attested to it?), I am no longer in agreement with being told who I can/cannot talk to, what I can/cannot read and have to PRETEND that someone else knows better and can control my life – and not control as in KRC, but control as in, frankly, a kind of suppression.  Okay, you may say, well, what about LRH policy?  So, to that, I say that LRH himself stressed what is true for you is true for you…including Scientology.    And, well, I have to say, at this point, WHO knows what is actually written by LRH or not?  Myself, I am sorting this out by what does or does not seem like the truth to me. 

Well, this is a lot wordier than I intended.  Hopefully, you have made it this far (or at least saved it to read when you had time to do so).   J

I am hoping that all of you will at least give what I say some thought, that you DO look at what BOTH sides of this issue are doing and saying.   Once you have done that, you can make your own decision.

If you decide that this is BS and is not true for you, well fine.  That is your decision.  That does not make you my enemy.  Why should it?  We can still be in comm and be friends and “agree to disagree”…hmmm, think that is also covered somewhere…

I am here if you need someone to sincerely communicate with.  Those of you who know me, know that.

Whatever you do, be true to yourself and your dynamics.

Lisa Hamilton

253 responses to “Lisa Hamilton Speaks

  1. Mockingbird6

    Very nicely said. Thank you.

  2. Nice of you to express your views and how things Lisa and thank you for sharing them

  3. Felicitas Foster

    Thank you very much Lisa. I think you named a lot of items that will ring a bell with others. And yes, we can agree to disagree – and yes, there is nothing more important than the Code of Honor.
    Thank you for coming out and setting a good example.

  4. craig houchin

    Thank you, Lisa.

    “Just know that the BEST part about it is, though, that YOU have to agree, YOU have to toe the line, YOU have to be the one to cave yourself in. Anyone else being cause over you is a cop out. You have to agree to be suppressed, right?”

    You are absolutely right. And, furthermore, you have to agree to un-suppress yourself.

    Therein lies the greatest ability that we possess: the ability to change our world by changing our mind.

  5. Thank you Lisa!
    Your story will be read by many and will help a lot of people that are still in, but out in spirit.
    big hug

  6. Thank you for your very powerful statement to the world, Lisa. The goodness of your heart shines brightly through your words.

  7. Nightmares Getting Less


    Very well written indeed.

    Do you have an email address? You and I had a major run in- time to start the healing process.

    Hiowever, I must say that you and I usually got a long quite well.

  8. Great post Lisa! What you say rings very true to me. My story if very much the same as yours. It really takes a tun of confront to make theese changes. MY father in-law lives in Gardnerville, it is a wonderful little town. So glad to hear that you are doing well. THe way out is really the way through.

  9. Welcome Lisa, thank you for sharing this with us. Love Mosey

  10. Tony DePhillips

    Hi Lisa,

    Are you married to Mark Hamilton the SHSBC supervisor?

    I loved your write-up and it really struck me that the church is not doing good. I can tell that you are a good person and probably took enough BS to choke a horse.

    I am glad you are out and keep communicating. The ethics handling now is to get a whole bunch of others to say NO MORE!!

    Great to see you here!!

  11. OMG! THANK YOU for coming out and telling us your story. You will make a huge difference as you are so well respected amongst Scientologists.

    Your story will help me to get a family member to start looking at the truth.

    I appreciate your candor. Would you post your email?

  12. Cured Robot

    I know you…always a fine person. I don’t know how you lasted as long as you did. Things just got crazier and crazier under the little midget’s rule. We both still have old comrades there who are living a living hell. He really is destroying something once so wonderful, hell bent on destruction is he. It’s hard to give that up but it has to be, to gain it back. VWD and nice write-up speaks so much sooth.

  13. Virgil Samms

    I want to add, for those who don’t know Lisa, she is a stableTERMINAL. If you went to see Lisa about anything, know that she would be in comm and listen and be in ARC. She is one of the few thetans that I know who could be tough and demanding while also in ARC. This is a rare quality in any exec and the world is at a loss without her being an executive somewhere.

    And you cannot ask for a better supervisor than her husband Mark. He is one of the best!

    Stay tuned and watch her now. She is going to be a real high contributing member.

    Linda and I love you lots. Carry on girl.

    ML Tom

  14. Lisa,
    I never met you, but I get the full picture of what you had to go through from your write up.
    Well, you got through. Very well done.

  15. Hi Lisa. I remember you at PAC back when I was at AOLA from ’02-04. We probably only had a few, very brief, comm cycles at the most. However, I enjoyed reading your post, and am glad to hear you are doing well. I wish you and your family the best, a future filled with happiness, and I would gladly communicate with you at any time.

  16. Theo Sismanides

    David Miscavige, if you lost Lisa Hamilton you lost the Sea Org.

    Lisa was/is/will be one of the most ethical, on policy, just, unbiased and Standard Sea Org members there are.

    sorry, by losing Lisa you have completely lost it!!

  17. It takes a great deal of courage to stand up and say
    ENOUGH to the C of S! Good for you. I’m proud of you.


  18. Yeah, well–just look at that face! That’s Lisa.

    I can tell you that this is the S.O. member in PAC that you could go to and express an opinion and not be upbraided for it. She has TRs. She listens and duplicates. She is not one to take what you say, turn it on you and tell you how bad you are; that you need sec checking; and go see the reg for FPRD. All she wanted to do is help you ‘sort it out’ with LRH policy. And she would start that sort out and finish it to VGIs. It appears that when she could no longer apply LRH policy, she had to hit the road. Such is her integrity. We are richer with this powerful lady speaking out.

  19. Good for you Lisa.

    “didn’t you all wonder about the protester with the sign – “Why did Rinder run?” — I know I did.”

    There are now still a lot SO members who lack background and history and dare I say ability to blow or route out.

    The strong help the weak, the old, the young and the less able. That is socïety.

    And you are strong Lisa, I know you allready helped alot SEE and I know you will help a lot more.

    Any seed of doubt that is sown by you may it blossom into a beautiful flower.

    You go girl! and may your star rise up high.


  20. Lisa,

    Your contribution reinforces what we have been seeing for a long time in the Church of. Rampant falsehoods, out tech and tyrannical management. How anyone can doubt it now, is hard to understand.

    To me, Scientology is extremely effective when you remove all the above and apply it without having others force you to. That has made all the difference for me, and I will let others speak for themselves.

    Your kind contribution here helps us all see how good life can be when you use disconnection as it should be used – to get away from supression in ones life. Not for using it as a tool to threaten and intimidate others for selfish consideration.

    Welcome, and we all want you to flourish and prosper.


  21. Theo Sismanides

    I have special affinity for Lisa Hamilton and I was so thrilled to see her here. I am sorry to some if I sound personal but Lisa has been a very unbiased person with me, helping me out while in the Sea Org.

    Lisa I don’t need to say my story with you and how you helped me in the SO. I see so many posts already from people who describe exactly who you are and what you have given to the SO staff and public.

    All I can say is that you represent for me the ideal Sea Org member. I am glad you are with us now no matter how difficult times Scientology is facing. However, it is worthwhile. After all life is not worth without integrity. I was declared for insisting on the application of the Translation Series HCOBS!!! Yes, Lisa, when I left in 2000 I was not the rookie you met at ASHO. I was a fully fledged SO member sticking to Standard Tech and Policy. I had done my wordclearing, I had read OT lectures by LRH, I had huge cogs and wins, as-ising things just by myself. All this because of LRH and the true Sea Org. But I wouldn’t have done good had I stayed. I wanted to give a blow to the enemy and that was, at least, Miscavige. I had a stable datum each time my mind would ponder over the matter and I want you to know that: If I was declared for insisting on HCOBs something is VERY wrong. And I moved out. I had my stable, unshakeable truth right there. I give it to you too because ALL of your indicators are correct. Ever, ever do not think otherwise or apologize to anyone from inside. All we have to do now is to keep disseminating Scientology and doing Scientology one way or another.

    I know you would always be there for anyone who would need help. Well, there is a whole planet now (again) and we are free (again) to act. We have this blog now. I know when you deal with something you just make it stable. No wonder you were the Exec Esto for ASHO. I just remembered that. So, Marty take note as you have an ESTO here.

    Welcome aboard shipmate and thank you for all your help you gave me at ASHO in the Sea Org.

  22. It was the most insane travesty of justice I have ever witnessed or been a part of. A kangaroo court pretending to be a comm ev. The chairman sitting there lying through her teeth, a supervisor knowing she was lying, sitting there red-faced with embarassment, saying nothing. A snotty little bitch throwing confidential data from my pc folder at me with no other purpose than to introvert me.

    My “crime”? Having the audacity to write a KR on out-tech that led all the way to the very top of RTC.

    Then there was Lisa Hamilton. She looked at my ethics folder which consisted of 1 and 1/2 KRs and about 1/4″ of commendations. I wonder if those little nazis at ASHO ever showed you the other half of that KR, Lisa?

    I said to Lisa, “there’s gotta be some serious 3P here, Lisa.”
    Lisa said to me, “well, there sure is something.”

    I don’t know what transpired next, but I do know the comm ev and the F & Rs (my SP declare) were thrown out and I was back on my academy levels.

    Thank you, Lisa. Thanks for being an island of sanity in a sea of ignorance and insanity the likes of which I could never have imagined in my worst nightmare.

    You and Mark are awesome thetans and I am so glad that you are free.

    Love and admiration

    Les Warren

  23. Lisa, you have expressed your thoughts so well in here, thank you very much for sharing. I admire your courage and integrity.

  24. Mike and aLaws


    Wow, a pleasure to hear from you and know you and your husband are doing well.

    I view you in a similar light to Marty, I did receive some fairly brutal and unfair handlings, but you, like Marty, always had an underlying base of humanity while following orders from up above. Over the last 9 years you were the ONLY church terminal that called to check up on me personally, to see that I was OK without trying to sell me anything. I know your holding a non enturb order on me for 10 years was difficult and something you knew was wrong and unjust.

    I truly wish you and your husband hapiness and success in your new life and look forward to the time we can get together and catch up.

    Love, Mike Laws

  25. Concerned Citizen

    Wow, another one of my favorites.
    Lisa I’m so glad you are here. It has been a long time, I had no idea you were out and I’m so glad of this.!!!

  26. Lisa, I always remembered you as a kind person and wanted congratulate you for sticking to your personal integrity.

    With love and respect, Amy

  27. You know what Marty, if you keep doing here what you are doing, and if the consequences of having done so continue to go the way they are going right now, you’ll soon have more Scientologists on this Blog than there are at Int.

    Not surprizing really, since Scientologists gravitate towards Scientology, theta towards theta…

    There are enough trained persons here to start rebuilding Scientology organizations all over again, from the top on down.

    Our mission wouldn’t be to Clear the Planet. Our mission would be to Clear the CofS. Priorities.

    Marty, LRH would be proud of you, as are we all!

    Thanks for being here, sir!

  28. Great write up Lisa, a fantastic blow for truth and to Miscavige’s projected image that eveything in the church is all fine and dandy when nothing could be further from reality!

  29. MostlyLurker

    What a nice introduction.
    Thank you for being free and communicating.

  30. Dear Lisa,

    I appreciate your story and your dedication to LRH. I always knew you to be a very sane terminal. Haydn told me the other day that you had sent him a comm regarding our daughter Katrina. I wasn’t aware of that comm until you posted here. Thanks for the comm.

  31. Hi Lisa,
    Thanks for speaking out and for holding to your personal integrity!
    You and Mark are wonderful people! Haven’t seen you in years!
    Cheers- Lana

  32. For those that don’t know, Patricia Curtis above is one of those folks holding the ” Mike Rinder blew-so can you” signs. Thank you!
    There are some really good folks making themselves known- well done to you all. The tsunami is swelling.
    I never interacted directly with you Lisa, but I do remember you carried a smile when I saw you around PAC.

  33. Great job Lisa.

    You’ve just expanded your comm lines exponentially.

    I have to wonder just how many people still in the church are now at least looking at this site?


  34. Beautifully written Lisa. Clear, concise and very relevant. Although we never met, I am so glad to hear that you and your husband managed to escape and have a new life.

    Thank you for confirming what I believed was the case – that the orgs are empty and stats are being made up.

    By speaking out and telling the truth, you will encourage others to find the strength to face the truth. Every day, more and more are waking up. Soon, Miscavige and his cronies will have nowhere to hide.


  35. Lovely lady, honest and true to herself. I would love to know her better. Any email address for her?

  36. Dear Lisa,

    I never met you but can see from the anecdotes that you were and are a sane terminal. I have met and worked with some over the years. Yvonne Gentsch for one.

    I just wanted to thank you for your blog and to say you make it feel just a little more safe for folks like me that agree with the indies but can’t quite make that jump of outing. Mainly family on staff we don’t want to lose the connection to. (YES DISCONNECTION DOES EXIST!) .

    On the other hand I’m working up a plan for taking responsibility for my connections and your comments if I may quote them will be of help.

    If you are wondering what these wave particles are, coming from my direction, I am flowing you LOTS of love!


  37. Reading stories like yours continues to clarify and reinforce what is really going on behind the SO curtain. Thank you for conveying your vision.

    The Sea Org should serve as an example of “Planet Clearing”, instead we see something more akin to a concentration camp. It’s clear RTC/CO$ has sabotaged the 2D into near non-existence and has turned it into a mere money-raking operation instead. It nearly qualifies as the holocaust of Scientology. The tyrannical dwarf will not be forgotten.

    Well done on breaking free …

  38. Hi Lisa,
    I know you and I have crossed paths over the years but at the moment don’t remember exactly when/where. So good to see your smiling face and to know you are out and doing great. Your beautiful heart felt statement had me choking back tears. My heart swells to see an old friend pop up on this blog.

  39. You know me Guillaume. May the force be with you.

  40. Lisa, thank you for standing up and speaking out.

  41. Lisa,
    I am just coming out of several days of “handlings” with OSA guys. Thank you for your Theta: still a few nights to sleep and I will come with our declaration of independance…
    Thanks again, Sir. You are showing us what is a real real Sea Org Member!

  42. Dear Lisa, VWD on getting out and about in the independent ranks. I’m glad for you and us all to be on the same side.

  43. Lisa & Mark,

    Thanks very much for your story in upholding the most important thing – personal integrity.

    Also for the update till ’08 in the Pac area which is revealing in lieu of real published stats, confirming the trend for Mestology and the off source Idle Orgs.

  44. Moving Forward

    Lisa, thank you for the beautiful write-up. This really tells it like it is and I hope you don’t mind if I print it off and show it to a friend who knew you. I think your message will communicate with much reality to him.

  45. Good for you, Lisa. 🙂

  46. Freetothink

    Wow this is like a breath of fresh air. Glad you guys are out, free, flourishing & prospering. I don’t think I know you but if your husband is Mark Hamilton that was the lead Sup for Pro Metering I know him & always thought he was the best Sup I have ever had (althought I have to say several of my Sups at ASHO were awesome). Thanks to him I got through Pro-Metering. He would always show me these wonderful references that would give me all sorts of cognitions. Congratulations to you both! Would love to have some comm with Mark some day.

    Marie-Joe DePhillips

  47. Dear Lisa,
    Its Dominic here. Dominic O’Brien. Frankly I would love to just write a whole bunch of stuff here but you know, that would be a bit strange to all the people who read this and have no clue what I am talking about. All I can say is wow, wow, wow!!! I still can’t believe it! Incredible, my universe boggles! Please send me a mail to the address below so I can get in touch (if you want that is. I apologize in advance for any hardship I ever gave you while you were on post). Lots of hugs and love to both of you! WOW!!!!! VWD! Dominic (dominicnobrien [no spam in here! Hey hey! ]
    P.S. Don’t know if you have seen the video I made with Channel 4 UK

  48. Thought Provoking


    Your post was wonderful and was not too long at all. I liked the way you allow a person to be fully self determined about what you wrote and to make up their own mind about the church.

    You have been to many orgs, including mine but I don’t think we have ever actually met. Many of the things you communicated were the same reasons I left in 2006.

    I have always considered ethics to be my friend and have had the good fortune of having worked with some pretty awesome terminals. It is great to see such a highly trained, experienced and rational HCO terminal in our midst.

    Having spent most of my staff time handling various suppressions within the church, it was so frustrating to want to handle but seeing that it just wasn’t going to happen. Naming org terminals just doesn’t fly and doing the robot dance of “what is expected” just made me feel false and 1.1.

    You know when you can’t get results from ethics…something is wrong.

    When good staff feel that they no longer can be true to themselves and abandon their purposes as staff members… something is wrong.

    When having children is an overt…something is wrong.

    When public are caving in their dynamics instead of expanding on them…something is wrong.

    When staff leave just for sheer survival purposes, no longer looking at the greatest good but simply survival of the organism…something is wrong.

    When Scientologists are willing to break the cardinal rule of talking to disaffected Scientologists or looking on the internet…something is wrong.

    When Scientologists are willing to walk away from Scientology…something is wrong.

    Thank you for being willing to be here as more and more people confront the truth.

    Marty, Mike, Steve, Jeff, Haydn and now JB have answered the “HCO call Order”. They have been doing an incredible job and now having you here with a true HCO viewpoint (LRH style) is a great sign for Scientology’s rehabilitation.


    Karen LaPorte

  49. Oh my gawd, Lisa.

    I have to dash off a quick post to tell you that you brought me to tearing up – with charge blowing off. It doesn’t matter that you and I likely haven’t dealt with each other personally in the SO.

    Your description of “being there” so completely communicated to me that I blew charge as the giver and receiver both. You touched my own intentions as an SO member when I dealt with people, and so close to how I’ve come to see each of our roles as they relate to one another. Co-incident in space. Gawd. Really.

    You’ve brought home to me again how very real is the humanity of each of us “out” and “in”, and that there is really only “us”, creating our now and our future. It was left to us. This is what we’re making of it, right here and right now.

    Thank you so much for speaking. You’ve made my day and helped me move my position further forward.


  50. Chris Black


    I remember once sitting in your office when I was near the end of my training. I was actually using it as a brief respite from the “hounds” at the door, trying to track me down to do something or another. We had a good gab, I told you about being Qual staff most of my Scn life (where I’m naturally “at home”), there were a few laughs, and then the phone rang and on the other end (I still don’t know how in hell she knew were I was!) was Reggie Caldwell, asking if I was there. I remember you handing the phone to me, partly in disbelief yourself and I had to laugh at it. I like Reggie, but I remember that moment of calm in a maelstrom of orders sitting in your office. Thanks for that breath of time.

    I also wanted to let you know that I made it. Mostly because I also kept this advice close at hand. Thanks for again putting it out here so some of us can give ourselves a shake and dust off the ol’ Code of Honor plaque.

    “Whatever you do, be true to yourself and your dynamics.”

    Chris Black

  51. Theo Sismanides

    Les, thank you for the specifics. I attest she was unbiased by all means.

  52. Hi Lisa,
    Thank you for writing your story and congratulations on extricating yourself from the SO. As a part time staff person in a Class 4 Org, it is hard to read these stories and understand the horrendous experiences that all of you have gone through. I feel like Marty’s blog has provided a wonderful itsa line for all of the ex-SOers to use to blow the charge accumulated during their years living the nightmarish conditions. It makes me ashamed for not seeing it at the time and protesting what was going on. These stories do explain a lot about the bizarre communication and decisions Vic and I were experiencing shortly before we eased ourselves out.

    Anyway, I’m glad you are out and doing well in Nevada.
    ML, Vicki Krohn

  53. Theo Sismanides

    Yes Tony, right, Mark Hamilton. Maaaark!! I just got your picture there! I completely forgot, this is Theo the Greek, man. Mark is one of the finest people in Scientology. A real great guy and a good executive.

    Mark… It’s so good to…. I don’t know what to say…

    Dan Locke… is my friend on Facebook. Lisa, say to Mark he has to write something here. Love you guys! Wow!!

  54. Theo Sismanides

    Hahaha, go Bobo!! C of M is our Div 6! Remember that guys! Lisa is going to have all her devotees come over here. All the people here say how she helped them. She has helped many more.

    Marty, what are you doing? You’ve gone completely 45, man! You are over the top now! Hahaha! This is hilarious! We get more people than Int. Hahaha.

  55. Theo Sismanides

    Pat you are so awesome. Full of ARC, interested always and smart, smart, smart woman! Lisa is great, you should get in comm with her.

    The US is waking up, Pat. It’s not like 10 years ago, I remember you in the Freezone, interested, writing tons of e-mails, helping people with your husband, Ray Krenik.

    I am so happy you are here and you can osmose things. I know that for sure. You always use osmosis.

  56. jason beghe

    Lisa –

    I love you. You were more than just my “terminal” during the last years of hell I spent in the church—you were (and always will be) my friend. You were my island of sanity. I may very well have drowned without you.

    Angie and I are soooo happy you are out. You were the one person I have truly missed being in comm with since I left.

    Here’s to the future!

  57. Fantastic Lisa. So glad you and your husband are safe and happy and enjoying your free life.

    One thing these about all this very theta news for so many coming forward with their stories, or commenting about their respective lives now, is how RADICALLY it debunks what is propagated IN the Sea Org.

    You will fail. You could very well die, just like X. You’ll get cancer. You’ll only be able to flip burgers.

    I know when I blew in ’80 and flew to LA. On the plane west, I was SURE I had just gotten cancer (as if it was contagious or something).

    Takes awhile for those horrible attempts to imprint failure and fear into our minds to dissolve.

    But, they do and we are better for having encountered LRH and now free to practice as we individually choose.


  58. Hi Lisa,

    What a great communication. Thank you so much for sharing and speaking up. I look forward to hearing from you more.



  59. earthmother

    Thank you , lookingin, now I have a name to thank for getting me to look!
    I was going to an event and saw someone holding a sign that read “Rinder blew, so can you”. Then, at the event, I noticed that Mike was not part of the show. Curiouser and curiouser. I had to look, and I am very thankful to Patricia Curtis for helping me get out.

    Lisa, Good on you for making public your departure and letting all of us know that you are doing well. Congratulations on having a satisfying job with animals. I don’t know what I would do without my 5th dynamic. It was very hard for me to have a fufilling relationship with pets when on course full time, something that nagged at me every day. I am very happy for you having the time to be participating in all your dynamics. It is something the church gives lip service to, IMHO.

  60. Tony DePhillips

    Hi Theo!!
    It is Mark then?? If it is, then this is HUGE!!!
    Do you know how many people know Mark???
    (I’m sure you do Theo) But for those who don’t, this guy has been a working installation at ASHO Fdn for my whole 30 years in Scientology.

    Mark If you are reading this…you HAVE to make your statement and deliver an effective blow to this maniac. You can make a huge difference!!
    Can’t wait to see you and talk. Maybe you guys could come to the Independent’s weekend??
    Tony DePhillips

  61. PlainOldThetan

    Lisa, I know you will remember me although we never had reason to interact from our post hats.

    My contact with the Hamiltons was by training under and auditing and C/Sing Mark on the SHSBC. He knew his stuff and was always warm and jovial with me.

    I am so glad to see that you’re both safe.

    Your reporting of your direct experience with the CofS insanities will help make “out” safe for so many others.

    I was listening to SCIENTOLOGY DEFINITIONS II (6612C06) today and was struck by Ron saying how it’s through superiority in numbers that suppression will be defeated.

    Thanks for making us upstat.

    “Straight up and vertical.”

  62. Times really are changing! I love this blog, and I love you all. Lisa, thank you for being here. 🙂

  63. Tony DePhillips

    I just had a cog.

    I think DM is trying to get rid of anyone who recalls how things used to be in the church. It is like a way for him to Not-Is reality. Get rid of all the people from the past and fill it with “new” people who see him as the “new” LRH.

    Also here is my new IAS schtick:
    ” Come on everyone help us get rid of these veteran Sea Org members and upstat public that are trying to put ethics in and stop all of our abuses” “WE are the IAS and we must stop them from stopping us. Won’t you please help us get rid of and destroy all of the people that have helped you in the past?” “Now is the time!” “Take a second mortgage on your house, whatever it takes. We are on a runaway train with no brakes, people. So get your ethics in and help us to destroy everything in sight! This is the greatest good and we only have this brief breath in eternity to do it!”
    IAS TOUR I/C Pat Hetic

  64. Ron talks of rekindling a failed purpose as almost able to bring the dead back to life. Well the theta that emanates from this blog (when the subject is the rehab of a being and what freedom from suppression can really do) is so palpable as to be almost intoxicating! It’s just the ticket to blow a failed purpose to smithereens.
    Marty I think with posts such as this one and the previous “That’s what I’m talkin’ about!” you’re blog is reviving the dead if not quite literally…. well almost!

  65. Freedom Fighter


    Thank you for your wonderful post. I predict this will create a very large effect. Your story about the “undesireables” was particularly heart-wrenching. It’s amazing, to me, how these dedicated SO members were cast aside as “out-PR”.

    On another note, there is someone from the PAC base who blew about the same time you did. I’m quite sure you know them and am wondering if you have any information on how to contact them. I will send a comm to you via Marty with the details. Any information you have would be most appreciated.

  66. Independent’s Weekend?

    I see glimmers or hints of this but IS there an actual Independent’s Weekend forming?

    If so — is everyone invited? As in, can I come?


  67. Lisa, thanks for posting. Question for you and other former SO: How easy is it to falsify stats in SO? Does DM ever personally check stats or does he want to be told only what he wants to hear: That there is expansion? I am curious as to how the “Vicious Circle of False Stats” works in CoS.

    David Miscavige’s plastic, craptastic “Bridge to Nowhere” continues to meltdown. If you look at CoS PR mailers these days, they are awash with plastic boxes crammed full of CD lecture sets for sale. CSI dba the LRH Library dba CST dba wherever the rabbit hole goes is all about shipping product and delivering endless endlessnesses of repairs. Where is the Truth in CoS? There is none.

    To read former SO publicly apologizing for their overts is remarkable and shows great strength character. It shows repentance and a willingness to confront one’s past in order to be free from the weight past misdeeds. It is amazing to see happen.

    Freedom is not in SO, OT, OSA, CoS, the HGB or any of the other Alphabet Agencies of Arbitraries and Suppression created by DM. DM has never once admitted to any wrong. His last batch of denials via Tommy Davis over forced abortions in the Sea Org is yet another example of how lies keep a group stuck.

    The Sea Org under DM is stuck in series of lies that keep repeating over and over. That is one reason I asked about false stats. If a person has to falsify stats out of fear, what else will they falsify out of fear? At what point does a person falsify their own life out of fear? And how do you wake up out of that?


  68. Oh, wow! Great to see you here, Lisa! I remember your smiling face from PAC. I remember your husband very well from ASHO – a great guy. So glad you are out and enjoying life! If anyone deserves it – it’s you two! Please give my love to Mark. Love, Suzanne Houchin

  69. Hello Lisa
    I don’t think our paths ever crossed but it was wonderful to read your story.
    Thank you for doing the right thing.
    Another friend 😀 so happy.

  70. Natalie,

    I’m been away from the blog a bit lately due to work — and saw your name here at Lisa’s “coming out party.”

    I wish to acknowledge your wonderful courage in speaking to the St. Pete Times about your determination to have your beautiful child and your determination years later to rescue her from a hell she did not need to experience.

    You’re a great mom and a brave person.

    Just Me

  71. Lisa,

    Congratulations on your life there in the beautiful mountains and the lovely time you’re having there with the sweet ani-mules! God love ’em.

    Congratulations also on your beautiful letter and on the peace you continue to make with those you knew and are now knowing again.

    Happy days are here again!

    Just Me

  72. LDW

    Hi Les. I am curious… Are you the Les that was once at Vancouver Org in Canada? If so then I know you, though not well, but I am glad to know you are here.

    I am not quite in a position to freely give my name here, at the moment, but very soon…


  73. martyrathbun09

    All who posted declarations of independence were invited. And the offer is still open. Whoever announces before the 4th get your travel plans in order. It’s gonna be one hell of a hoedown. If anyone has a button on overt association with us, you wouldn’t want to come anyway. It will be observed more closely than all of the org obs missions over the past thirty years combined. Tiziano can tell you that will make it all the more fun.

  74. Lisa,

    It’s so wonderful to see you here! Thank you for speaking out and being who you are. You are so welcome here and I look forward to meeting up with you in person in the future!


  75. Think no more Tony. Yes, “DM is trying to get rid of anyone who recalls how things used to be in the church.” Virgil posted on an earlier blog (some months ago) about a mission into PAC This mission was a “DM Mission” and had as its In Charge none other than Jenny-I’ve -seen-every-inch-of-his-body-Linson. She said to the entire PAC crew: “we don’t need you old timers.” And the purging began. Of course it included undesirable. I was there for that briefing as were about +/-300 others.
    Somewhere around 2000 or 2001, I was CSWing (all the way to the Commanding Officer) for liberty and told my senior that back in the day (mid 70s) all we had to do was say “It’s my libs week and my stats are up” and voila! – you had libs. Man, he didn’t want to hear about it – it was like a whole track/other practice concept to him. It was an enemy line.
    It IS important to Davey to get rid of these people who knew LRH and how he ran things. That’s why he has declared and or removed nearly every one of the. These old timers could not be molded. There are unfortunately a few that have fallen into the mold and are now lost souls.

  76. Absolutely. He is building the orgs to his own specs with our children and baby Scientologists who do not know any different or better. I have always thought it was a purge.

  77. Lisa, you must be a special person to be so well-loved.

    Congratulations on your decisions FOR freedom. Here’s to many years of fruitful, joyful and peaceful living for you and Mark and all whom your lives touch.

  78. Lisa,

    Is Mike Howser (Howzer?) still around? He was a wonderful MAA (at AOLA). I think of him fondly and often. He was a great help to me in the early 1980s. So sensible, so simple, so sane – how MAAs used to be.

    Just Me

  79. My email address is no secret. It is:

    Please do communicate.


  80. Lisa, Welcome and congratulations! thank you for speaking out. I wish you and your husband the best.

  81. Lisa,
    Through your thoughts I have a sense of your fairness, loyalty and purpose to help. You shine through directly, simply, loud and clear! I respect, value and honor that as a friend, and you give me hope for a brighter future.

  82. Anyone who wants to be in touch, ask for my email or send me yours.

  83. one of those who see

    Dear Lisa,
    I don’t think we have ever met. Thank you for your informative write up. Each person that contributes their observations helps complete the picture of what life in the Sea Org has become. I also want to thank you for your dedication to Ron and to Scientology all these years.

    The honesty being communicated on this blog is so wonderful.
    I cried when I read this part: “And to any staff or public who I pressured from my post to give money for any of these things, when you did not have it and would rather have used it to go up the The Bridge, please accept my apology. I am deeply sorry. It was an overt product.”

    You didn’t pressure me. But other poor souls under unbelievable pressure did. I was last on lines when the basics came out. I have had a hard time moving on the bridge. I had bought the books and I had a family member with the lectures and I had access to them at any time. In 2 different orgs I was told I was the only PC on lines or the only body in the building who has not bought their lectures! i didn’t budge. I didn’t have the $$, but if I did, I thought the greatest good would be to buy more auditing.

    It is so great to have a valuable Scientologist like you here and communicating.

    Healing is happening. I am keeping my eye on that mountain. that mountain is freedom.

  84. one of those who see

    Marty, Just need to say…Wow. Big effects!

  85. is it only me, or is there a virus living on this site? i read this blog frequently (and love it) and got a trojan horse virus last week, twice, right after viewing this site. could be a coincidence, or…? it took my tech guy a day to get the virus off my computer. yikes.

  86. Lisa,

    Good lord. I haven’t seen you in over 15 years and you haven’t changed a BIT.

    If that isn’t an OT ability, I don’t know what is. 😀

  87. Jules Drool

    Stat reporting in the Sea Org go somewhat like this (in public delivery orgs such as ASHO or AOLA):

    Each staff member has a stat, and at the end of the week (Thursday at 2pm) the major stats are calculated and sent to the execs of the org. Some of the major stats include –

    GI (gross income)
    STP (student points)
    PC Comps
    Student Comps
    BIS (bodies in the shop)
    VSD (value of service delivered)
    WDAH (well done auditing hours) etc.

    Individual staff such as auditors, supervisors and execs falsify stats all the time. At the PAC orgs, I saw dozens of staff members over the years get busted for falsifying major stats such as student points or VSD. I’m sure it happens more often and people do get away with it. Supervisors can easily get away with falsifying student points unless someone double checks the students checksheets. I did it a few times while I was a supervisor… the pressure we were under to get the stats up can sometimes push people into padding stats so they won’t get busted or sent to the RPF. Same with auditors or execs falsifying the VSD stat.

    The stats of the week then get sent uplines from each org on the planet to ILO (International Liaison Office), who compiles the stats of all orgs in each continental section, and then sends it all the way uplines to the Gold Base.

    The same line has been going on for years. But only the staff of their own org know what the real stats are, even though public can simply go to the OIC (org info center) where all the graphs of the org should be posted at all time. Not many orgs keep this up.

    So in the end, once the stats get reported to the guys way uplines, they keep records of these and they cannot verify it. After this, who knows who else is falsifying.

  88. This is awesome to see you here Lisa. Being at ILO for many years, we have run into each other occasionally. Just shows that pretty much all of the good guys are now out.

    ILO was also dumping “undesirables” staff members at PAC. Some of these people had to go only because they were considered “aestical eye sores” by the RTC rep.

  89. Hi Lisa,

    I saw you around PAC for years and I am glad to finally marry up the data with the face. Wow I didn’t know Mark is your husband! I know him well and admire him. I am very glad to hear you guys are doing well.


  90. Watching Eyes

    Welcome. Congratulations on your freedom and living life on YOUR dynamics versus the dwarf’s.

    How neat that you work in a vet’s office. That’s one thing I’ve never done. But I’m very active in animal rescue so am at my vet’s office a lot. Although after so many years it’s gotten to the point where half the time I don’t even have to go in. He keeps me well stocked for emergencies which always seem to happen at night or on the weekend. Saves me a bundle. It’s always nice to meet up with another person who’s passionate about the 5th dynamic.

    Wishing you continued happiness and success.

  91. Lisa,

    I want to pass along the following request for contact information from someone on the Ex Scientologist Message Board (ESMB):

    “Human Again

    Thanks for letting us know.

    I would like to get in touch with Lisa. Does anyone know how I could do that?

    Human Again”


    If it helps, Natascha’s publicly available profile states she is located in Melbourne, Australia, and previously served as Snr HAS Int, Snr HAS ANZO, Tours REG, RTC Msnr, and IAS Crew.


    If you wish, and only if you wish, you can contact Natascha on ESMB at:

    I’m passing on the message in order to facilitate and further communication if, and only if, such communication is desired. [I have adopted that hat between various discussion boards and groups.]

    — Kha Khan

  92. John Powers


    Wow, I was very surprised to see your post. I’m so happy for you and Mark! I always admired you for your sanity and calmness in the turbulent waters of our Sea Org lives. I always enjoyed working with Mark. Tell him I said “hi”. I know it was probably somewhat odd to see that his EstO disappeared.

    Congrats to you both and best of wishes for your futures!


  93. Tony DePhillips

    Great opprotunity for creating some community.

    I have seen some Sea Org day party’s in the early 80’s. Those people know how to party.

    Be there or be square!!


  94. “I know there are those out there who are thankful for my hand in improving their lives and there are those who trusted that I had their best interest in mind.”
    Hello Lisa,
    A big hi from My wife Hellen Chen and myself.
    Hellen and I made it up the bridge and to the status of Power, Elite FSM and Mission holder, and currently running a large filed group in Taiwan with great stats because of people like you.
    To our luck, for almost all the time over the 20 years we were in SCN and producing, there was almost always ONE senior terminal like you around who stopped the many lynch parties on my wife or me.
    I know you know that you have helped the both of us a couple of times.
    During times when no one else believed in us.
    At times when we had only one Q: where is the LRH in all of this?
    For 20 years, besides of me knowing that I am on the right track, it was people like you (and defiantly you yourself) which gave me the certainty that LRH is still applied somehow and that in the end it will all come out all right.
    SCN in the free zoon is the new “all come out all right” because we can be free ,even though the road will not be without rocks in the way – but Ron never said there wouldn’t be any –he said there would be.
    About your comment of the false stats form orgs at events –did you know that I had to threaten the Gold Film Crew to draw them out of my Mission in Bombay if they want to continue to force me to film the opening of a second mission when there was no second mission? (“it’s a postulate and it will then come through and be truth” the guy tried to tell me ,while also telling my HE is the senior terminal on premises and in command). Well you know me – things like that don’t go over well with me –which is why YOU had to help Hellen and me several times.
    Thanks – in case I did not say so at the time.
    I love skiing; maybe I can ski with you and your husband next winter. (Are you close to Less Robles)

    Helmut & Hellen


    Hi Lisa this is an amazing story and I validate the courage you had to say what you said here.
    I can tell you that I lived through the elderly transfer and was also deeply wounded, angry,upset… I saw myself one day being handle the same way after many years of I understand and now how hard it was….hope this story will help others to see what we have being seen and how DM is destroying our church… but also will see that we are here to help and to reconstruct what LRH wanted ….thank you for being one of us..
    Can you post your email?

  96. Lisa, I left so long ago I am not sure we had a chance to meet. But it is wonderful to hear from you and to hear of Mark.

    Mark was, hands down the best sup in the academy back then. Others tried and some did OK, but Mark was consistently brilliant and his arc never faltered.

    He remembers I am sure, students that were made to star rate Mayo bulletins in the same breath they read his SP declare.

    He never made me wrong for being pissed off and confused. He guided me gently through many dark days and was never robotic. He had that perfect knack of making you feel completely understood while he proceeded to point out that you weren’t gonna get a pass on that quickie clay demo;)

    He kept an eye on his students, he could spot trouble, and he’d always come over and see what was up. As I recall almost always making sure he pulled up a chair instead of towering over you.
    He demanded excellence from his students, oh he’s really memorable to me.

    I changed my entire schedule around to be on ASHO day because of him. MARK, speak up dude;)

    He never was much of a chatterbox was he? Haha.

    DialWide (Dan Locke) and Craig (asho day reg) are some others I wonder about.

  97. Dominic that video is the ONLY dissem video in existence for many many years!

    I used to point people to it and just tell them the church had gone mad.

    Wonderful work, thank you so much!!

  98. Freedom Fighter

    I think you guys are hitting the nail right on the head. Having kids recruited into the SO also keeps their parents in line.

    I have friends where all of their kids — young kids — are in the SO. They’re clinging to that Kool-aid cup for dear life and if you even suggest they set it down for just a second or do anything to suggest that drinking Kool-aid might be bad for them, they go almost Type 3. Yes, I think this a very calculated move on DM’s part.

    “We want our people to be obedient . . .”

  99. Nice to see you here JohnOMac! 🙂

  100. Tony DePhillips

    New York,
    Don’t get too paranoid…
    Of course there may be a micro chip implanted in your head, but that goes without saying.

  101. Dave Shelden

    Bless you Lisa. Bless your husband. Bless the rest of your family. Bless your community. Bless your religion. Bless your state. Bless your country. Bless your race. Bless your spieces. Bless your continent. Bless your planet. Bless your solar system. bless your Galaxy. Bless your universe. And bless all of your dynamics that I have not a clue yet…

    Always, in all ways,


  102. War and Peace

    Congratulations Lisa !
    Thank you for setting a good example.
    This is a wonderful posting verifying and corroborating a lot of facts.
    It really did get worse after 1995….

    High Fives and a Champagne toast.

    War and Peace

  103. I have never known Lisa – but her article REEKS of truth!

    What sold me was – she just seems to be making a mild recitation of facts.

    We are now entering a more mature stage of church development. It’s up to US now, not just Ron.

    The staunch yeomanry of Scientology is now defecting,disaffected by the madman in charge.

    Miscavige must be going NUTS in fear of a coup.

    It’s close!

  104. John Powers

    Hey Boss!

  105. Kathy Braceland

    Wow Lisa. What a wonderful write up. A HUGE WELCOME! Glad to have you amongst us.

  106. Thanks for the support. See my email above your post. Send me your father-in-law’s name (it it is appropriate). It would be neat to meet him. Lisa

  107. Tony. Theo did answer you. Mark remembers you very well and says hello and that he always enjoyed your comm line. You can email and I will get you two in touch. Lisa

  108. Hi Daisy,

    Just write me at


  109. Kris, Feel free to write. My email is listed a few times here now. Lisa

  110. If something I said will help you, then by all means use it! Lisa

  111. Linda, If I am correct, we met when I was up in Sac and you had some concern for your ex-husband. That was quite a few years ago. I was on a project at that time. Email me at Lisa

  112. Go for it! Lisa

  113. Marie-Joe, I think I gave my email to your husband, Tony? I know Mark would love to comm with you guys, so email me and I will hook you guys up. Lisa

  114. Hey Dominic, Email me at


  115. Ne Obliviscaris

    Wonderful coming out Lisa.

    It is people like you that hold up a mirror to the problems created by DM in the church. Your long and valiant effort to “hold the line” and forward the aims of Scientology have not gone in vain.

    You’re here now and just by reporting your experiences, are truly helping.

    Like I said, you are holding up a mirror to the face of David Miscavige so he can see what he has done.

    And Dave, I would say that your face is very dirty.

    And as Sarayu famously said in “The Shack” (courtesy of W.P. Young):

    “But can you clean your face with the same mirror that shows how dirty you are?”

    People like you, Lisa – are that mirror. Thank you for polishing yourself back up and reflecting.

    One more thing Dave — if the analogy above wasn’t clear enough.

    When all eyes are looking at you, maybe its time to turn around and look at yourself.

    There’s still time to turn around…


  116. Tony DePhillips

    Did you ever hear the line that the old timers don’t get through the golden age tech training as fast as the new people? I was told it was because we are all loaded with false data…

  117. Don’t remember you so far from the “clues”, but send me an email to


  118. Send me an email about this. Thanks.
    Lisa –

  119. Cool…email me and let me know who this is. Lisa

  120. John, Mark says “Hi” right back at you. You can email me and I will connect you two up. Lisa

  121. Great post Lisa. Sounds like you are a very stable terminal.
    A stable on-source ethics officer is a godsend.I had some major wins working with a great EO on several occasions and there is nothing like having someone apply standard tech whether in session or with an EO.
    Look forward to hearing from you a lot more in the near future!

  122. Hi Helmut, Hi Hellen,

    Good to hear from you. We are about 25 minutes away from Lake Tahoe…not sure where the place is that you mentioned. Would be great to go skiing.

    You can email me at


  123. Theo, Thanks for all your support here. Why don’t you send me and email? Lisa

  124. Jules,
    There are two things that go on–well actually three (the third being honest stat report. The first two entail false stat and stat pushing. Stat pushing is like what nearly all of us experienced in the sale of the Basics. Just push, push, push, sell, sell, sell. Doesn’t matter if they are in the hands of someone that will use them (although that is what is heralded). But the push on this was so tremendous, that the salesmen got them purchased in such quantities that people who could (or couldn’t) afford it has as many as 50 sets of them in their garage. The push on it was relentless. Lisa told me herself that at one point (just before she blew) there were HOURLY musters of the entire CLO that concerned the sale of the Basics. It was Command Intention and was a simple stat push. Like Lisa said, if you voiced concern that you needed to do your post instead of sell – you were CI (had counter intention). The donations (for everything) are a stat push – and this is well covered in earlier blogs and blog comments. The money just stockpiles, and the stat can never go down, as because that is SO reserves and is a key stat for Int Mgmt.
    Falsifying? Well that’s easy. It just a number written on a piece of paper. Sometimes (depending on the post) the heat is so intense, and the threats so real, you just falsify it and turn it in. Some are harder than others – like GI – because the finance computer tells you what the GI is (ie how much was invoiced).
    Don’t know if this satisfies your question, but I think that is the long and short of it.
    In Amy’s book, she went over the false stats that were being reported by Hamburg Org. It was all wonderful until they were found out and Weibke got nailed and so did some of the execs who were over her org.
    Lisa mentioned the false stats of ASHO that she and her husband noted at the event-those stats were padded (ie falsified) in order for the Div Head and/or Commanding Officer to survive.

  125. Hi John,

    I remember you from AOLA, in the 90’s. Good to see you out and with the indy’s. You probably would not remember me, but I remember you.

    Just wanted to say hello.


  126. Free Spirit 88008

    Your video is amazing! We love it! All of us remember you fondly for all you did for us to make it to OT while you were the Chief Off AOLA. My good friends and I all went OT under your watch. It was the best of times. You brought the care-factor into everything you did and we love you for it!
    Free Spirit 88008

  127. Rarely does malware kick up from the site you got it from. It often shows up when surfing other sites, one of the ways it hides itself.

  128. Dear Lisa,

    Beautiful touching write up…and every word, the truth. I congratulate you on maintaining your integrity and good will.

    I must have been at the same event in 2008. It was the only time I ever walked out of one..after hearing what I knew to be falsely reported stats on Pasa Org right there being broadcast internationally! I never went to another event.

    You probably ran across a “few” of the KRs I sent thru you at PAC…like over 100 that I wrote…I was the Tech Sec. You and I left at around the same time. Do you know what happened to Whitney (WUS Prog. Chief)? So many PAC staff were leaving in droves after the Basics release…it was hard to keep track of them all.

    Wish you the very best Lisa.

    Sherry Katz

  129. I want one of those Dave!

  130. Doug Parent

    Thank you Lisa! The ripples in the pond becoming a tsunami! 4 years ago when I first ventured on the Internet, there were only a handful of blogs. In the last year alone, so many people have spoken out. I have finally felt that prior loss of a third dynamic disappear. Thank you for EVERY ONE that writes your opinion, your articles, your stories, your blogs. The days get brighter! People are getting training and auditing outside the church. Thank you Lisa for lending your shoulder.

  131. “Individual staff such as auditors, supervisors and execs falsify stats all the time”

    I totally disagree with you. Lets not get into a great generality now that everyone is evil in the church of Scientology and “they all falsify stats”.

    I do believe that at Int events they portray stats in a way that are misleading, such as “10 x last month!!!” And it turns out that the figure was one after a long crash and now went up to 10 or something like this.

    But a disagree that “most staffs falsify stats all the time”.

  132. Hi Tony;

    You are absolutely spot on in your comment on how ‘the past’ is being not-ised.

    The present refrain from the CofS is how great the production is today.

    35 years ago, THIRTY FIVE YEARS AGO, 1975, 76 77, the level of production was astronomical. Those who were there know of what I speak.

    ASHO day was producing 99 to 100 SR. SHSBC graduates a year, ASHO fnd was producing about the same. The amount of auditing going on in the SR. SHSBC course room on Temple Steet was hundreds, and hundreds and hundreds of hours a week. It was the greatest release of theta in the history of this universe. AOLA and flag also benefited from this true explosion. Then, AOLA had it’s stats in the small front hallway. The graph for ‘new’ went up the wall, across the ceiling, and down the other side. It was an unbelievable level of production. Clears were coming off the line like the old Model T fords, one after the other. Bam Bam Bam. It was breathtaking. It was so much fun! We were always laughing!

    Both ASHO and AOLA had Class VIII courses going on, both full. When I did my Class VIII course at AOLA, there were 60 of us on course!

    The last time I went to ASHO, I peeked into the course room of the SHSBC. There were maybe 16 persons there. I asked the sup how many students he had. Get this. He said he had 60 or so. I asked, hey, there are only a few here. His response, and his indicators crashed when he responded, was that they were on leaves of some sort. He knew it was a false stat.

    I remember the ‘reg horn’. Everytime the regs at AHSO reged someone, they would honk this godawfulhorn once for every thousand dollars they regd. It was glorious! We’d all be there, doing our thing, TRS, metering, listening to those godawful wooden box tape players, and when the horn started, we’d all stop and count!!! And boy, we’d cheer! It was so theta.

    Yes. DM and CO. want to not-is what Scientology can do, and put in it’s place what he can do, which is false report.

  133. Lisa, Thank you so much for your declaration of Independency. You are always a very valuable and stable terminal for all of us.

    Glad you and your family are doing well and are completely free of DM’s suppression.


  134. Concerned Citizen

    Therein lies the greatest ability that we possess: the ability to change our world by changing our mind.

    Yep, I’ll drink to that

  135. Concerned Citizen

    Dan is around, he is doing well and wining, reunited with his wife, they are aware but need more time to heal and decide.

    I’m not sure about Craig.

    From that team, I also wonder about Bill Skriver? it oi hard tp spell, but he is another giant and not someone who can be manipulated so easily.

  136. One of those who see wrote, “I didn’t have the $$, but if I did, I thought the greatest good would be to buy more auditing…”

    That pretty much says it all. People go into CoS to get auditing and then they seem to be regged to donate for everything else except auditing.

    — Auditing is now only a byproduct of IAS.

    This is where DM squirreled the dynamics by his A=A=A of claiming that IAS is planetary salvage and is therefore senior to everything else.

    Scientologists got sucked in when DM inflamed the bogeymen of psychs and psych drugs. IMO, CCHR was just DM lighting a big backfire to get Scientologists alarmed enough to donate to the IAS instead of buying auditing. I was at 2007 New Year’s Eve event. Now that I think about it again, that night was all about DM screaming to obliterate psychiatry. Of course, this meant donating to the IAS.

    Tom Cruise derailed his career by taking on psychiatry and the right of women to choose their own form of health care for post postpartum depression. That whole 2005-2008 era of DM’s attack on psychiatry sure looks like the strategy he used to steer money away from auditing and to the IAS. If you connect dots, the Ideal Org building purchases of 2005-2008 sure look like they were proportional to DM’s attack on Psychiatry.

    BTW, you do not have to be a Scientologist to agree with the argument that psychiatric drugs are over prescribed, particularly to children. DM and CCHR do not have a monopoly on this issue. Yet, they act like it. I think it is a big button with Scientologists that DM pushed so hard and so often that it became a held down seven. IAS is made of a big, fat series of held down sevens!

    The only people with real wins in CoS these days are the $65o a day PI’s! I sure would like to get paid $650 a day to sit in a car outside of some SP’s house while I ate donuts and peed into a plastic bottle. What a life!


  137. Concerned Citizen

    No Theo, though being an ESTO is great, Lisa is not just an ESTO, she is a fully interned OEC/FEBC graduate. (Pre new era of management too) That is a major achievement.

  138. It looks like you’re the only one to be so PTS or who knows?…..

  139. Despite being directly on the heavy justice line, despite the group agreement and group pressure, despite also having people on that same line who relished abusing people, you never lost your basic decency.

  140. Hi, Lisa!
    Glad you are out.
    Good you are here.

    Vadim Dolgov
    ex-MEAM I/C (at PAC)

  141. Lisa,

    Fantastic. Thanks for this. By the end of your write-up I wanted to talk to you not because I need help, but just because of who you are. What a wonderful being you are. I look forward to meeting you one day.

  142. Veritas, Love to com with you!

  143. Centurion,

    Great post. Scientology doesn’t have to be enforced. What a concept!

    Every current C of M member should repeat that: “Scientology doesn’t need to be enforced.”

    In fact, the idea of enforcing Scientology with threatened punishements (disconnection, denial of OT levels, etc) is the most absurd thing I can think of. Wow, how did I fall for it for all those years?

    The effort to enforce Scientology is the product of a small, insecure mind. Gee, I wonder whose mind that is?

  144. Wow, what a validation of Lisa!

  145. martyrathbun09

    It actually cannot be enforced.

  146. martyrathbun09

    J Swift. On psych drugs, DM sets a price on everything. Remember the Prozac campaign early nineties. Where did it go? DM sold out. He’d do the same thing on Ritalin, etc if his sorry ass were jeapordized by the campaign.

  147. Watching Eyes

    Interesting comment. By any chance you wouldn’t be wanting people to think this site isn’t safe to visit? Nah, couldn’t be.

    ps. It took your tech guy a day to get the virus’ off your computer? He’s slow.

  148. martyrathbun09

    Lisa, I am adding your email address to the post to save us a lot of added traffic.

  149. Lisa;

    Welcome to one of the fastest expanding “Islands of Sanity” on this planet.

    With people like you joing us our future is very bright indeed.

    Thank you for a very theta write up. I love how you grant beingness to all. Reminds me of LRH.

  150. Lisa,
    WOW! Your comm spoke to me as a true HCO terminal from the days of LRH. I feel a real honest comm to help, using LRH points of view and writings, so the individual wins, with “their best interest in mind” based on truth, integrity, and reason. “Ethics” use to be “The poor man’s HGC” and WAS always available to help the individual, to get tech in and improve conditions across the dynamics.
    It’s great to see an HCO point of view which can once again bring order, increase survival; not lie to, pressure to agree, confuse, trap, or dismiss an individual as useless, as has become the norm in the church. Not to mention, now, public need to produce evidence or multiple viewpoints to agree to that which was stated as truth in ‘ethics’. Not much trust anymore in the CoS amongst its members. On the day we can trust each other there will be peace on earth, seems to ring loudly from here.

  151. I just fought off the urge to e-mail Lisa, searching for information about a friend who I last heard worked at ASHO. Not wanting to get someone in trouble, I would never post a name. Thus email sings its siren call.

    However, I would imagine her comm lines are pretty burdened right now. As I don’t know Lisa my concerns would be her dev-t.

    So, I’ll broach the idea broadly.

    I get the feeling we’re all a little like friends and loved ones searching for those missing after a major disaster. Have you seen? Do you know? My daughter was….

    Is there a Department of Missing Persons in the Independent movement? I get the feeling this is a needed and wanted.

    But, then again, what the hell do I know?


  152. martyrathbun09

    Michael, This is the Missing Persons Bureau. If you put it up here, and they are alive, you’ll eventually hear from ’em.

  153. martyrathbun09

    The poor man’s HGC. I love it, and am gonna use it from here on out. Brilliant.

  154. Dear Lisa,

    Thank you for everything you did and for coming out and joining us with your strength and sanity!

    We are all so much richer having you as a friend!

    Mary Jo

  155. Smart guess!! If the original observation was accurate, my computer would be boiling with viruses. It never happened!!!

  156. Tony DePhillips

    Awesome Li Po!!


  157. Tony DePhillips

    Hi GM,

    Thanks for your post!

    You made me think of the times I would go to an event and they would try to “rekindle” our purpose and it wouldn’t work. I realized after reading your comm that they were not really rekindling anything.

    NOW I am being rekindled. I see all the bullshit being exposed that I have choked down for so many years flying off and I am being revitilized!! So yes, that tech really does work when applied correctly!! LOL!!


  158. It’s you.

  159. Lisa,

    Congratulations on your freedom, and thank you for adding more pieces to the puzzle of as-ising this 3rd dynamic engram.

    You and I have probably never met, but from your own words and the responses here of those who knew you, I would say that you are exactly the kind of scientologist, staff member and executive that kept my purposes in scientology
    burning for many years. People like you made possible the wins and forward progress of people like me, by holding the form of the org and by continuing to put scientology there, every day.

    Thank you for your help.



  160. Thank you for your truth and your courage, Lisa. We have never crossed Scn paths before, but I sure did enjoy your write-up here. I applaud you. I hope to meet you someday.

    In the spirit of KRC, I also am butting in to presume that Helmut meant “Les Robles”. A person (Leslie), not a place. Location: Reno. Active independent group. Her husband, Rey, has recently become my auditor. (yippeeee!!) Here is a link that will provide much more information:

    I have been having huge personal gains and blowing off much COS case since connecting up with a true 3D again. It is great to have you here amongst us.

    Beautiful photo, by the way!!


  161. “BTW, you do not have to be a Scientologist to agree with the argument that psychiatric drugs are over prescribed, particularly to children.”

    I aggree so do most people in Europe regarding the US.

    Wait. ALL people in Europe.

    moderation or the middle path is key.

  162. …”did you know that I had to threaten the Gold Film Crew to draw them out of my Mission in Bombay if they want to continue to force me to film the opening of a second mission when there was no second mission?”

    Little Davet took “If it isn’t written it isn’t true.” And turned it in to “If you can fake it up on film and sit enough thetans in front of a screen, it is true.”

    He doesn’t deserve to occupy space in a physical universe, he’s not up to that level as a thetan.

    He should bug off and create a virtual reality game. His “rules” don’t hack it in the real world.

    I’ve seen all manner of PR regarding India recently, I see it for exactly what it is, same old formula. LIE and chase the $$$.

    If the Indians are finally going to see some economic improvement he wants to make sure he is in place to loot them.

  163. Dave Shelden

    You just got it!!! That goes for everyone else on this blog, INCLUDING the DM trolls: Keep reading, keep reporting (if you so choose), the desire for freedom always starts somewhere. There were experiments done in the sixties where they took northern pike (a type of predatory fish) and put them in an aquarium with a glass divider in the middle with the pike on one side and a food source fish on the other. the pike repeatedly slammed into the divider until they “learned” that they could not attain their goal… Yes, and then they took out the glass divider. The food fish stayed at the far end of their side while the pike starved to death even though the barrier had been removed. For those who have yet to cast off the Chains of Miscavige, the universe is far larger than you have been lead to believe, and it is all yours.

    Always, in all ways,


  164. Bingo, change the past is what dictators do.

  165. My memories of the late 70s were:
    Sea Org memebers at Flag having steaks 3 times a week and unlimited milk and orange juice with meals. All had proper beds (no bunk beds).
    Regular liberties and study time.
    Walkng into missions and see 500 students on basic courses.
    The RPF always had the same food as the rest of the crew and enough sleep to be sessionable.

    I thought things were going crazy in 1982 but that was nothing in comparison to current insanities.

  166. Freetothink


    You’re stated it so well. I couldn’t have said it better. I felt really safe & in good hands around Mark!


  167. Freetothink

    “In fact, the idea of enforcing Scientology with threatened punishements (disconnection, denial of OT levels, etc) is the most absurd thing I can think of. Wow, how did I fall for it for all those years?” Wow my TA blew down big time on this one! ROTFLOL!!! Tone 41, I’m wondering the same thing but I guess it doesn’t matter much at this point. I’m Freetothink now! 🙂

    This is almost like when I finally realized when I was listening to an LRH lecture that as a Thetan I can not die after spending many lives being afraid to die. LOL

    You’re right Marty Scientology cannot be enforced.


  168. Freetothink

    Speaking of DM being our Div 6. Most of you might know this but in case you didn’t realize part of the Ideal Org strategy is to contact everybody in each Org that has ever bought a book or done a service. Now that we’re in the internet age I bet that most people that will be contacted will want to research Scientology a bit on the internet before getting involved. They probably will find us!!!

    DM talks about putting the government on his Org board. Now he’s on our Org Board 😉

  169. Freetothink

    Li Po, Li Po, Li Po, … 🙂

  170. You forgot to mention getting rid of any trained auditors… ;^)

  171. Sherry,
    Whitney is out. She’s on Facebook.

  172. Freetothink

    Thank you Lisa I will.

    This was one of the hardest thing for me when I decided to resigned, the feeling that I was betraying all the amazing help I had gotten from several terminal at ASHO. I actually send several of them a personal letter before I sent my resignation letter. I wanted them to hear it from me, thank them for all their dedication & make sure they would not take my decision as an invalidation of what they had done for me. Mark hadn’t been on my lines much anymore, in fact I had no idea what had happened to him. If he would have been I would have sent him a letter too. I sent one to Bill, Penny & Velma. Unfortunately I don’t think any of them got the letter. Hope they got my comm in the Theta Universe.

  173. Hi Lisa. Your story is great. I’ve thought of so many things reading it and the comments following.
    ~You’ve certainly blown another HUGE gaping hole in the false datum that people who leave are degraded beings or suppressive, losers, off-purpose, have other fish to fry, out-ethics, ethics particles, etc.
    ~Truth re. the gratitude and thanks given to dedicated, long-time staff members, what really happens to them and what their “retirement” truly is.
    (when I was newly on mission staff auditing tons of Book One, driving from New Orleans to Baton Rouge every day to be on post, I naively envisioned growing old as an auditor and retiring up to the Sea Org to live out my old days in an auditing room getting people up the Bridge.) HA!

    I love animals too! And kids! And people! I get to! So do you!
    I hope to meet you and your husband one day too! 🙂

  174. Jules Drool


    Without getting into specifics, from the 8 years I was in the SO at PAC, it happened ALL THE TIME.

    I could list at least 15 people and give specifics just off the top of my head but I don’t want to throw anyone under the bus.

    I did not say that everyone is evil and “everyone” does it. But it does happen a LOT and very often.

    I do of course, agree with you that stats at these events are very padded and misleading too. That goes without saying.

    But as far as individual stats go, based on my personal experience, it happens all the time.

  175. Thanks Linda. Is she out of the C of S or just the SO? I don’t remember her last name, what’s it again please?

  176. >BTW, you do not have to be a Scientologist to agree with the argument that psychiatric drugs are over prescribed, particularly to childrenTom Cruise derailed his career by taking on psychiatry and the right of women to choose their own form of health care for post postpartum depression<

    There is definitely an argument here, but TC just couldn't articulate it effectively at all. I couldn't believe it. To me he looked arrogant, ignorant and narrow-minded. The bad PR generated from this must have been a welcome boost to "the psychs", or to those elements who were actively attempting to suppress their enemy line, portraying ANYONE critical of psychiatry or the psychopharmaceutical industry as Scientologists (or, in their eyes, 'loony, "alien-worshipping" cult members').

    Saying that, however, I still believe CCHR to be made up of an amazing bunch of people (for the most part) and the work they do in this field, imho, is incredibly valuable.

  177. Let me add to that, that false stat reporting is not the norm. All I’m saying is that it’s easy. When and if you get caught, well, you’re in deep doo-doo.
    SO members and staff members et al do work their asses off and tally up what they accomplished for the week and turn it in on Thursday. Then they apply danger, emergency, normal, affluence or power. It’s routine.
    IMHO, the stats that are in question are those that appear on the Silver Screen. For me, they are in question because we know Scn is not expanding, yet the Int events show stats that make it appear that it is=contrary facts.

  178. Jack CCHR is just another Cash Cow of dear Leader

  179. >BTW, you do not have to be a Scientologist to agree with the argument that psychiatric drugs are over prescribed, particularly to children.

    The argument, for me at least, is not that psych drugs are “over prescribed” (that’s a given), it’s that they’re prescribed (at all) under the guise of “medicine”. Scrape away all the PR and junkscience propagated by the psychopharmaceutical industry, and these psychoactive drugs (used for the “treatment” of “disorders” that are not based in any valid medical science) are really no different than those “other” psychoactive drugs (aka recreational drugs) in why they are used, and in the apparency of their “success”.

  180. This should say as a FORMER part time staff member…Not currently connected to the Church!

  181. Theo Sismanides

    Yes Freetothink, he is our Div 6 and he can’t do anything about it. He has lost Source and he is now just Div 6 and Estates Manager.

    Actually I pity the guy. He has to work and work and work and not enjoy a bit of the freedoms of life.

    Well, keep working DM and keep that public and staff moving in so then they jump out of the windows of the GAT Academies and on to us.

    You don’t know who you are messing with. Keep them coming to us and to the freedoms of Scientology. Time to bed now for your next morning muster. What a life!

  182. Theo Sismanides

    Yes Lisa it was one of the best surprises to see you and Mark here! Maybe I never told you straight but I respected you a lot, though I gave you some hard time back then, haha.

    My e-mail is

  183. Theo Sismanides

    Marty, this is good.


    For Anyone Who might know what happened to Ken Shapiro PES ASHO please let me know.

  184. As a health care professional, I have watched funding being cut for mental health care over the years in response to the criticism and lobbying by CCHR. One of the unfortunate by-products of this decrease in funding is the overuse of pharmaceuticals because it was fast, making it cheaper than talk therapy, and reimbursable. Play therapy for kids, art therapy, and other similar therapies that are used in the mental health field and are relatively benign from a Scientological perspective are not used as frequently because they take time and have very low reimbursement rates making them much less attractive to mental health providers. So the unintended consequence of the fight against psychiatry is an exponential increase in using drugs for mental patients. Really sad…Vicki

  185. Theo,
    Shapiro is on Facebook. He de-friended me when the bulk mailing of my “status” was sent to my list of “friends”. He’s on the BC. That’s all I know.

  186. martyrathbun09

    Vicki, Thanks for this information. Can you refer me to any written material on the subject?

  187. Alrighty:


    Scholarship to Pac 10. Getting winos drunk. Seal-sliding on muddy fields in high school. Manufactured bongs. Grandfather, the doctor, says, “A banana is two servings.”
    Cranberries and brooks. A court high above a nude beach.

    Let ’em figure that out.

    Michael at:

  188. Hi Marty,
    I cannot off the top of my head though I can see what I can find when I have access to the medical library at work. I base this comment on over 33 years working in health care and health care management. Psychiatric units in hospitals have struggled to maintain reimbursement and have to move patients out as quickly as possible to reduce length of stay, hence the use of drugs. Outpatient care is also limited which again means care provided in the shortest amount of time -> drugs. There is talk therapy but it is “augmented” with drugs to reduce the time it takes to provide some relief to the patient. The provider typically is approved to provide care in a certain number of visits and then funding is cut off. The CCHR stance fed right into the insurance companies’ need to reduce costs, IMHO. I’ll email you references as soon as I dig some up…Vicki

  189. Theo Sismanides

    Yes, Bill Scrivers (or something) and Jim what’s his name, was a Sup also, early nineties (with the mustache) and then Dico the Sup, also quite a guy.
    I also ask about Ken Shapiro if anyone knows what happened to him. And many others.

    Hey, this is like ASHO reunion. Hehe!

  190. Theo Sismanides

    Right, completely forgot that!! You are right, CC.

  191. Powers!

  192. Good to know Ralph, for those of us who only see the modern version, thanks.

  193. martyrathbun09

    Thanks. I am fascinated by these data.

  194. I think we can never say this enough times. THERE IS A MAJOR DIFFERENCE BETWEEN SCIENTOLOGY AND AN ORGANIZATION THAT CLAIMS TO DELIVER IT! The ideas and methods developed by LRH when delivered exactly as he suggested create miracles, just about raise the dead, can accomplish anything. On the other hand no matter what it is delivering, if the organization strays from the carefully marked path of the Founder, the products of the organization become less and less of what they could be. DM is no genius and the alterations he inforced into LRH’s technology have in many cases weakened the results and in some cases created the opposite of what would be expected. The biggest problem is the followers of Scientology, for a number of reasons more expertly explained elsewhere on these blogs, have been lulled into not seeing the deviations and the worsened products.

  195. We should all remember and I hope those in the SO contemplating leaving with take LRH to heart when he said that S
    O Members are Stellar beings and would be in very high positions on the outside. (Anyone know the exact quote?) One does become more OT in the SO. One’s confront of MEST is raised. One can pull off anything! If management had not SQUIRRELLED LRH I would still be there! And I believe you would too! If you were able to truly thrive on all your Dynamics, even have a dog! And have children and see them as much as you want. And go up the Bridge. And be able to do all this while helping others to flourish and prosper!!! The second it stopped being fun it stopped being LRH! the second it stopped making sense it stopped being LRH. Imagine if it was fun and all our Dynamics were in harmony and balance! You couldn’t tear me away from it with a tractor! And remember we always have the right to leave a game but not to worry you’ll always make it big time on the outside!

  196. Thats great Marty.
    hers a couple: Gilles Piche; joined RTC in 85
    Ken Markin:joined ASI in about 89 last heard auditing Nots in the late 90’s !

  197. When I was on course at FLAG my stat was student points. If I remember pay and libs were effected by your stats so I made sure my points were always a few points up but not more as I would eventually lose out. Scuttlebut was others did that too. Not really a false stat but youdefinitely didn’t give your all.

  198. A newbe shows up and asks such a question. Hmmmmmm?

  199. Oh New York
    I went over to DM’s website and my head exploded!

  200. That would be me. Let me know who you are and we’ll chat. You can contact me at

  201. Joe Pendleton

    Mark Hamilton!! One great course supervisor!! He held the cans for my passing video on Pro TRs. (He won’t recognize the name, but would know me immediately I think if we met). He was always wearing the big ring with “25” signifying 25 years in the SO. A wonderful tech person servicing the public……and then one day, he’s suddenly doing call-in full time and I never saw him back suping again.(!!???!!!)

  202. Dominic, what a fascinating program! Hardeep was obviously genuine and respectful and it was courageous of you and Max and the others to allow him to film. Well done.

  203. Hi Marty,

    It’s probably true that those of us who are still underground and using pseudonymns would not feel safe coming to your gathering. However, I, for one, would like to feel fully part of this group. I think all of us who are still underground feel fully involved and in amazing ARC with everyone on the blog. It’s our group too, and (I hope I’m speaking appropriately for others) we feel like fully participating members, contributing with all our theta to the purpose of bringing down the suppressive regime and building a beautiful, theta community of Independent Scientologists who can freely use LRH tech.

    I would be surprised if there were any one of us who does not want to fully announce our names and our independence as soon as possible.

    It might not hurt to invite us, even though we might not feel comfortable attending. I, for one, would have been delighted to be invited, even though I probably wouldn’t feel I could risk the public exposure yet. I’ve been dreaming of meeting every one of the wonderful people I’ve been communicating with and getting to know on your blog.

  204. Marty,

    It can’t be enforced, but the insane C of M is trying to do just that!

  205. Freetothink,

    I loved experiencing your blowdown on flow 3! I’ve known what I said above for a long time, but my cog about it deepened when I read Centurion’s post above. How absolutely absurd to try to enforce the attainment of freedom! As Marty said, it’s something that can’t even exist.

    Ah, Independence is so the way to go. An independent network of Scientologists who are in it for the good they can do for themselves and others, and for no other reason . . .

    We already have something quite wonderful in this group and in our comm lines. But we also have the beginning of something very powerful, something that can’t be destroyed, something that can’t be perverted.

    Marie-Joe, I’m so glad you’re Freetothink!

    L, T41

  206. Tony DePhillips

    Hi Tone 41,

    I am not answering for Marty, but I can give you a viewpoint.

    First of all, I think you are a big part of this group just as everyone else is that is creating it and helping to stop all the abuses.

    As far as the party is concerned, there are some people that are pretending to be out and are really OSA plants. It would not be good to have them at the party IMHO. They would be serious wet blankets. (have you ever had a wet blanket draped on you? It’s not real comfy.)

    When someone comes out openly it seriously diminishes the odds that they would be a plant.

    Anyways, that is my “think” on it.

    Excuse my bullbait above about “be there or be square”, it’s just a game you know?


  207. Tony DePhillips

    It must have been that damned micro-chip!!

  208. John Powers

    Excellent! I’ll do that.

  209. John Powers

    Hi Centurion,
    I’m a different John Powers. I was at PAC in the 2000s.

  210. Tony,

    Thanks for your reply! I do see your point. We definitely would not want any OSA plants there! So perhaps a public invitation wouldn’t be in order. But Marty could perhaps maintain a list of people he knows are real indies and not plants, as one suggestion of how to handle that issue. 🙂

    Geez, I really want to be able to announce my name and be among all of you who are out in the open. Unfortunately, doing so would completely destroy my business and source of income at this point, and that would not help me to help change conditions across the dynamics!

  211. I agree with Lisa and saw many of those things while on staff at Flag. I have personal experiences with DM that make me believe much of what is said is pretty much like it is (like in JB’s comm recently).

    What Church of Scientology? It does not actually exist anymore as far as the one that use to operate on LRH Tech, and so it does seem appropriate to call it the church of DMology.

    I resigned months ago for the same reasons you did Lisa, the degradation run on staff, the out policy and tech are just the out-pts to much bigger crimes I think behind what DM has knowingly done to the church.

    It use to be that nothing was to interfer with getting the public up the Bridge, then just about everything has been used to do so.

    I do not believe that is accidental on DM’s part but intended.

    I will possibly be declared for having written this, but I do not care anymore as what has happened to our church is beyond attrocious and the biggest crime of magnitude for DM to be tearing down the church with excessive donos for huge bldgs that the staff cannot fill as they are out gradient and the field that could have gone up the bridge is now in such debt they cannot and if you don’t agree with it you are out ethics and if you don’t dono (even when you honestly don’t have it) you are out ethics and it is crazy.

    I have had fair game treatment in many ways for going 12 yrs now from DM and one other for reasons I will not yet devulge (however if harmed further or harassed further I suppose I will be forced to).

    I will never do Scientology again as it is. I will use what materials I have and continue to be a being that tries to better the scene where I can and help others as I strongly believe in the Aims and Goals of Scientology (these were apparently the perfect push buttons to use to over reg so many into huge debts). I believe the majority of the staff are good guys and that DM has run his tech of brainwashing steps literally on apparently not only all of Int, but as well Flag level and outer org too.

    I am done with them ,want and deserve a happy peaceful life, and that is what I plan on doing. I don’t buy the constant barrage of lies I get on down the line to me of what I did, it is ridiculous.

  212. Self A Ware


    I am public, have been reading this blog for several months now and what a shock it was for me to read your name and then read what your post was at PAC.

    Your apology is accepted.

    You see, I am one of those where standard LRH was not applied, and I am being gracious with how I am saying this. It was gross application.

    I have read a few other stories on the Internet by people that will not forget or forgive what Mike or Marty may have done to them and I wondered how they hold on to it and place blame for so long.

    I now understand, but for me you have now done your A-E to completion. Thank you and good job.

    I never dreamed I would be writing this or years later feeling the emotional discharge that I now feel.

    Lisa, may all of your dreams come true for you and the best you can always do is Flourish and Prosper. That is what got me beyond the trauma created by disconection.

    Some day soon I will be able to share my name with you, but until then, keep smiling!

  213. Concerned Citizen

    Dear tone 41,

    As a fellow “under the radar person” I get what you are saying, I however think there are a coupple of factors that are relevant.

    It might be more unconfortable for us, to be in a position to have to declinea an invitation we can not accept. It is considered impolite to invite someone you know can not atend and put them in a position to have to decline. It is just one of those group agreements

    We are all a team, under the radra ones are a vibrant part of it. But the fact is that being out in full light, carries the risks attendant to being a “known enemy of the Church” So those who have boldy steped forward are at least a bit more upstat than the rest of us.

    This in no way lessens our value to the group, we might gather intell, or enlighhten the sleepy ones, or just enrich the blog with our ideas.

    But we have to give it to them, those whose names are out have really earned a special place and I have no problem whatsoever recognizing that.

    With increased responsibility, it is natural that some previliges be accorded above the norm- me thinks.

  214. Concerned Citizen

    I know of an overwhelmingly larger number of people who were falsely accused of falsifying stats – including my slef, than actual individuals fasifying their stats. I think there are some execs who out of despair, re-work stats so as to accomodate the very unworkable demands.

    I truly doubt all of them are intentionally false reporting, more like trying to work logic where there is none.

    That said, some people did knowingly false report stat and or pushed stats designed to push the stats that were more looked at, neglecting others.

    Stat push was a much more common offense than false reports.

  215. Concerned Citizen

    I wish we would follow LRHs vadvice in the HCO manual of justice regarding trusting people.

    We must keep vigilance, yes but to pounce in everything that moves does lead to injustices.
    to tell someone what to think about their case is not only unexpected of an auditor,(particulalry when it refers to PTSness!) but a violation of the auditors code which does apply to life.

    Civility, patience and the knowledge that most people are well intentioned is something that is found aboundantly here, but if Jpoe blow, who just got out, is internet illiterate, and is just getting oriented to the facts receives this kind of answers, he does not only not feel welcomed and evaluated for, but we just confirmed the churche’s “DA” that we are SPs out to inval scientologist.

    Now, New York may well be an OSA operative. But the fact is that it could just as easily be the other scenario.

    Before we judge and act with out all the data, lets remember that some people really don’t know how viruses work. A simple answer like Foremost was enough.

    Yes, by all means keep an eye out for further indications this guy may be a troll, but if he wasn’t?

    Some people may not like this, some may think I’m a troll fopr saying that. I just think that inspection before the fact is not coducive to our survival.

    We are in the business of helping people, I too sometimes snap at someone, but lest we let our suspicion cloud our judgement, lets not be nasty

  216. asJen mentioned below, I ment Leslie & Rey Robles. They have a great training and autiting set up about 30 min from Reno airport.

    we will be in touch.
    welcoem to the free world .

  217. >There is talk therapy but it is “augmented” with drugs to reduce the time it takes to provide some relief to the patient.

    Big Pharma has been pushing this methodology for many years. The last one that I recall was in 2004, when a NIMH-sponsored “landmark study” was published showing that the combination of fluoxetine (aka Prozac) and Cognitive Behavioural Therapy was THE most effective treatment for “depression”. The news of this was everywhere – it was huge!

    Of course, not long afterwards it was discovered that the study was inherently flawed (the study failed to blind two of the four study arms), the results were misleading (the second of the two primary end point scales showed that the drug was no better than the placebo) and that over half of the authors involved were on the payroll of Eli Lilly.


    – Fluoxetine, Cognitive-Behavioral Therapy, and Their Combination for Adolescents With Depression: Treatment for Adolescents With Depression Study (TADS) Randomized Controlled Trial; JAMA 2004;292(7):807-820

    – Specialists challenge claim that fluoxetine plus talk therapy works best for depressed adolescents; BMJ 2004; 329: 529.

  218. Sherry, I answered you further on facebook.

  219. My eternal gratitude for coming out, Lisa. I’m coming out soon, too. Hopefully before the 4th.


  220. Thought Provoking

    I think we refered to this as “sandbagging”. Getting the stats up but slowing down immediately after they were up, letting the rest carry over to the new week. ‘Twas always nice to start the new week with immediate products.

  221. Thought Provoking


    I don’t believe I seen your name before. Welcome! We share many viewpoints and I look forward to hearing from you in the future.

  222. “Come on, the Bodies in the Shop were going down, the Captain and staff were counting other org’s SO members on the BIS, Paid Completions, Paid Starts and other stats as a stat-push and to save their bacon in case their Basics sales were down. To hear the head of our group utter such blatant falsehoods to staff and public made me feel ashamed and embarrassed to be a Sea Org member.”

    That says it all in a nutshell. When one gets to the place of feeling embarrassed and ashamed to be part of such a group, what is the point of continuing to give personal allegiance to such a person or group? Especially when you know that to speak out against him means instant censure and ostracism. Nice group, eh?

    When the time comes to say “HCO Bring Order”, please count me in.


  223. OMG!
    Diana Dubin!!
    I am sooooo happy to see you post here.
    Please contact me right away.
    I lost track of you and am so glad to find
    you again!

    Eileen Haworth Clark

  224. Bobo,
    You reminded me of so many things that I’d forgotten about those times. That stupid horn!!
    Thanks for the memories….I had a good laugh and pleasure moment with my recalls of then.
    It WAS fun and always something to look forward to…going into the org, seeing your friends, being on course, going in session, meeting up for coffee and the endless discussions about things—everything. Just like it was meant to be. That is MY idea of Scientology. It works. I lived it and shared it with all my friends (students, pc’s, staff).

    L, Eileen

  225. Tony,

    That was brilliant….
    Pat Hetic (pathetic)…..rotfl, tears, omg

    sadly, also, accurate.


  226. hello.. just love the way you expressed your experience in the sea org.
    I would like to email you -is this is possible- since i had a horrible and sad history about disconection case.. or some like that!!
    thanks and will wait for your response..

  227. PlainOldThetan


    I got through the SHSBC Certainty Course pretty rapidly. My trouble now is getting rid of all the false data it instilled in me.

  228. PlainOldThetan

    Charles: You’re right to be concerned about “generalities”.

    Let me give a specific.

    In the past year, a NED case completion was routed to ASHOD. They crush-regged him to come up with the money for Power. Which he did, even though he was hideously in debt with no visible way out of it.

    His 2D sent miscellaneous report after miscellaneous report to ASHOD regarding the pc’s recently revealed horrendous out-2D activities.

    ASHOD C/Sed him to start Power RIGHT AWAY, and he completed it and the stat got reported THAT WEEK.

    Then, and ONLY THEN, the pc was routed to ethics. He was in ethics six weeks to get through lower conditions.

    Yet, somehow, the STAT of a “Power Completion” did NOT reflect QUANTITY, QUALITY, and VIABILITY.

    It only reflected QUANTITY.

    And I am embarrased to say I count myself as having been trained as a C/S at ASHO.

    The Reg, auditor, C/S and C.O. all reported this false statistic.

    Is that specific enough for you?

  229. Concerned Citizen,

    Thanks for your comm about this. I do get the viewpoint that people who have “come out” are at least slightly more upstat than those of us who haven’t. I tried it on and I can certainly see that point of view. But I don’t really agree with it, and here’s why:

    First of all, I think those of us who are under the radar can do just as much good as those who are out in the open. We have access to people and groups that those who have announced don’t have access to. Just the other week I was talking to an on-lines Scientologist (who has been on OT 7 forever and is currently off the level). I was able to detect that she is not happy with the current scene, and to begin validating her perceptions. I will be showing her Marty’s blog in the near future. She doesn’t dare go and read it on her own. And she wouldn’t dare be in comm with someone who is not in good standing. But with my support and urging, I think she will soon do both. And I will bet that soon she’ll be one of us.

    So we have access to people who are on lines and good standing that those who have declared their independence don’t have access to. We also have access to orgs, and can walk in, observe the scene, collect inteligence, etc., any time we choose.

    So to me there is no point in saying that one sub-group of us is better than the other, or more upstat, or whatever. We all have our individual situations and we are all trying to do what is best across our dynamics. It doesn’t matter whether or not we have announced, it matters what our intentions are, whether we’re acting to support and further the purpose of dismantling DM’s suppressive regime, and acting to create this wonderful new community of independents.

    There have been just a few otherwsie upstat people who have dramatized a ser fac about the subject and have even railed against those who are still underground. I don’t think I have to convince anyone (except maybe the few who have done it) how counterproductive that is.

    Marty has been incredible and has flowed tons of theta to all of us. I would not try to tell him how to run this thing; he’s doing a brilliant job. I’m just suggesting that whatever increases ARC the most among all of us has the highest survival value.

    Oh, and it’s interesting what you said about etiquette. I have invited people to dinners that I was pretty sure they couldn’t attend. I’ve done so because I wanted them to know they were valued and wanted, even thogh I didn’t think they could come. Maybe that was out-etiquette, I don’t know. But I guess my rule is to do whatever I think will create the most ARC and grant the most beingness to a friend. To me that’s senior policy. 🙂

  230. Hello everyone,
    For the ones who know me by “Eman”.
    I am happy to hear from Lisa and Mark. Those 2 are great people. Lisa was the Snr HAS at that time I was there. She was so different than others SO members who were giving orders, stupid orders or nonsense orders. I like her. Her husband is awesome. Mark is a great person too. Worked with him for a while and he is very sane as she is. Great couple.
    Nice to heard that they are doing well.
    All the best

  231. Doc "Smith"

    Hi Lisa, Welcome to the fresh air. I don’t think we’ve met, though I know Mark, as I paid for the BC in 2005, and he’s been in comm with me on and off since then. Please let him know that I’m still planning to do a full Chronological study of those materials as an independent and become the auditor I always planned.

  232. Doc "Smith"

    Sorry, he won’t know me by the byline; My name is Mark Elliott

  233. Tony DePhillips

    Hi Tone 41,

    I understand your viewpoints.

    I think the real issue is if you are “under the radar” you really can’t come to the party because you will be “outed”.

    IMHO you can do great things flying under the radar.

    But ultimately, don’t we all want to be able to do and say what we want without fear of repercussions?

    I do think people flying under can be even more upstat than people who have declared Independence. Are they serving others and really helping? If so then they are very upstat.

    But I do see the VFP as number of people who are now Independent. That is the valuable final product IMHO. It’s not fun to have to hide, I know, I hid for awhile and didn’t like it.


  234. Theo Sismanides

    Concerned Citizen and Tone 41,

    We have discussed this subject of the ones under the radar but I have a few realizations as I read your comments.

    First C of M is our Div 6 and a recruitment pool for us.

    So now I have cleared it up in my universe that as we move on gradients here more and more the “under the radar” might be EVEN MORE valuable to Scientology than the ones who have blown our cover.

    We are many now and don’t need to do the same things all of us. Each one has a hat, as long as he/she wears it.

    the under the radar can be upstat and the blown covers can be upstat. Both can have downstats, too, if they don’t do anything.

    Tiziano, a blown cover, did an amazing job on that video and he got some pretty good points together with Jamie.

    Tone 41 says he prepares an OT7 to come and visit the site. Both of those people are active, wearing a different HAT.

    We definitely need more people under the radar but a HAT is needed not to blow their cover, hahaha. This is immensely important.

    So, on that note, I think we are ALL doing a wonderful job moving on in gradients and forming up that Org Board I was talking about which is our ONLY salvation.

    If we don’t differentiate between function and structure we are toast. We got to keep on function and structure will follow. I learn that from Marty and I am more cool now that I see how fast we are moving forward.

    So let’s keep the hats separate and let’s start rolling because we have moved ahead and gotten so many new people here. This is awesome. DM thinks we are a bunch of unorganized thetans. Well, he better now that we are functioning thetans and in a fury. My hat is off to those under the radar who can keep their cover, wear their hat and get more people informed. This is a vital hat for our Div 6 and Div 1 activities, not to mention Div 7.

  235. Theo Sismanides

    Diana, excellent, this is courageous and straightforward from you.

  236. Theo Sismanides

    Yea, Songbird, this is the attitude. Thank you so much. Lisa is a power house, she can move mountains. I knew it. Do come out, it’s our own world. Thank you.

  237. Theo Sismanides

    Lisa, do not disappear from this blog. You put some fire to it and let me tell you that you are needed and wanted here. You can see that. Please update us on what you are doing with all those people. It is SO important. Our 3D needs to expand. Thank you.

  238. Theo Sismanides

    And one other thing, Lisa.

    I have been stressing the importance of the 7 Div Org Board here. With you trained on OEC FEBC things are going to roll. Order is going to come in on this. I have read and word cleared the hell out of the Org and Livingness Tape. It’s one of my favorites.

    I know you know. This is the Supreme Test for us. The Admin Tech in the Freezone/Independents.

    A whole lot of waste everyday because of the lack of a nail in the horse shoe if you know the reference.

    Love, Theo

  239. God, the horn. I forgot about the horn.

    ASHO on Temple. Cheek to jowl in the course rooms. So hot in the summertime. Standing in line at 1:00 am at Tommy’s for chili burgers. Rampart police sirens.

    The things I’ve forgotten ….

    Reading this blog is like doing time travel ….

    Just Me

  240. HI VADIM!!!!!

  241. Yes, please do email me. Lisa

  242. Hi Mark, My Mark says your name sounds familiar. Why don’t you write to my email and you two can get in comm. Lisa

  243. EMAN!!!!
    I knew that Lisa would bring out lots of folks lurking. Good to see you posting here and that tells me you have been reading and learning.

    Please email me: as I would love to know how you are doing. Funny, I was just talking about you a few days ago, wondering where and how you were.

    Eileen Clark

  244. Freetothink

    Eman, are you the Eman that was a Reg for ASHOD?

  245. Hi Tony,

    Yes, I certainly agree with that. I would much rather be out in the open and not have to hide anything.

    On the other hand, it’s also kind of cool to be underground, to not have to give up any of my comm lines, to be able to walk freely into orgs, and to plant seeds of truth whenever people are ready to receive them.

    I did make a mistake the other day and plant a seed of truth in a comm with someone who was not ready to receive it. Wow, did that almost backfire on me!

    Sometimes I feel a little bit like a secret agent, which is certainly not a beingness I’m used to assuming. But if it’s done causatively, it’s actually a fun and productive game.

  246. Theo,

    Yes, what you said is exactly right! We are all equally valuable to the degree that we’re creating this new community and a new reality for Scientology. The value of each one of us really has nothing to do with whether or not we’re under the radar. Like you said, those of us who are underground can do different things with different people than those who have declared their independence. And those who are out in the open can do things we can’t do. So yes, indeed, there are different hats and all that’s important is that we’re all contributing.

    Ah yes, communication really is the universal solvent. What a theta, “soluble” group this is. 🙂


  247. Theo Sismanides

    T41, I think we are tracking here!

  248. I usually feel like I’m tracking with you, Theo. 🙂

  249. Kris,
    I also would like it if you would contact me.


  250. Lisa and Mark,
    Congratulations on both of you getting free,
    and now enjoying such a delightful life! Thank you for sharing your story with everyone. I look forward to hearing more.

    To Theo, who asked about Ken Shapiro, here’s a funny story:
    I was auditing a Sea Org young man in the 80’s. He kept saying, “Mr. Shapiro” this, and Mr. Shapiro”that. He sounded terrified of this person. When done, I said, “Let’s go meet this “Mr. Shapiro”–I’d like to speak to him. (for me, whatever was going on was *totally* out tech, in that his Junior would be living in such daily terror–so I was about to fix it as best I could).

    I used to work under Kenny Shapiro in the 70’s a Celebrity Center, LA. As we walked across the street, I said, “You don’t mean KENNY Shapiro, do you???” He said, “Yes!”

    Needless to say, Kenny and I had a wild conversation with me giving him a hug, and then asking: “What the Hell are you running around here–this kid is terrified of you”. We both laughed and he said he’d iron it out. Sorry to hear he’s still “in”.

    Thanks again, Lisa!!!

    Love to all 🙂 Tory/Magoo

  251. Hi Lisa – I just ran across this today. Wow. I don’t think I ever met you, but I know/knew Mark forever – he was on staff at ASHO F back when it was on Temple, wasn’t he? In any event, he sure was when I was on the BC.

    Mark is one of the nicest, best people I have ever known. I am truly glad you both are doing well.

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