The Age of Reason – recommended reading

Thomas Paine

Abraham Lincoln has been quoted as saying “I never tire of reading Tom Paine.”

Neither do I. Paine’s The Age of Reason was of tremendous help to me in moving beyond fixed, negative patterns of thought instilled by the church of Scientology (Miscavology).

I believe the following passage from Age of Reason describes the mindset that is leading church followers down the dwindling moral spiral:

I do not mean by this declaration to condemn those who believe otherwise; they have the same right to their belief as I have to mine. But it is necessary to happiness of man, that he be mentally faithful to himself. Infidelity does not consist in believing, or in disbelieving; it consists of professing to believe what he does not believe.

It is impossible to calculate the moral mischief, if I may so express it, that mental lying has produced in society. When a man has so far corrupted and prostituted the chastity of his mind, as to subscribe his professional belief to things he does not believe he has prepared himself for the commission of every other crime. He takes up the trade of a priest for the sake of gain, and, in order to qualify himself for that trade, he begins with a perjury. Can we conceive anything more destructive to morality than this?

Here is another passage that exposes the dark historical precedence for practices Miscavige has institutionalized in order to capitalize on people’s consciences (realize, this was written more than 200 years ago):

The Idea, always dangerous to Society as it is derogatory to the Almighty,–that priests could forgive sins,— though it seemed to exist no longer, had blunted the feelings of humanity, and callously prepared men for the commission of all crimes.

Paine describes four tricks traditionally used by organized religion in order to control and corrupt people – Mystery, Miracle, Prophecy, and Revelation.  I’ll open for discussion how revelation has been used to herd Scientologists in a later post. But, I’ll complete this book recommendation with a passage on the initial three.  I think you might recognize these devices continually employed in the church of Scientology – most particularly and directly by Miscavige during the events that most occupy his time, public events.

Upon the whole, Mystery, Miracle, and Prophecy, are appendages that belong to fabulous and not to true religion. They are the means by which so many Lo heres! And Lo theres! have been spread about the world and religion been made into a trade. The success of one imposter gave encouragement to another, and the quieting salvo of doing some good by keeping up a pious fraud protected them from remorse.

254 responses to “The Age of Reason – recommended reading

  1. I agree, Marty.

    It was through reading Thomas Paine, Thomas Jefferson, Edmund Burke and others that I learned what freedom and rights were really all about. I was a Scientologist at the time, and I thought, “Here I am in a religion with a “Bridge To TOTAL FREEDOM”, and I have never really studied the history of freedom on this planet.

    When I did, I began to realize that the religion I was in had NOTHING to do with freedom. Because I valued “my eternity” so much, they were able to actually enslave me on staff by threatening to “take it away” from me if I moved to another mission that would pay me enough to pay my bills.

    It was when I learned about rights and freedom from Paine and others that I realized that my eternity is mine – always was and always will be. And so, despite their threats and the damage they were able to cause me, I still stood up and spoke against them, exposing everything I could about them and supporting others with the courage to do so as well.

    For that, they attacked me and tried to destroy my family. And when they did – it proved to me that Scientology had nothing to do with freedom at all. It never did, and it never will.

    Freedom and rights: they are very much worth learning about.

    I agree, Marty.

  2. Made me think of Alexis de Tocqueville, ‘Democracy in America’ specifically the chapter, ‘Influence of Democracy in Religion.’

  3. martyrathbun09

    Allen, you said it all with this: “It was when I learned about rights and freedom from Paine and others that I realized that my eternity is mine – always was and always will be.”

  4. Allen,
    “I realized that my eternity is mine – always was and always will be. ”

    Ah, oui. C’est ca.

  5. Did DM do the intro bit for this?

  6. Marty,

    I just want to say, I disagree 100% with Alan Stanfield’s statement, “Scientology had nothing to do with freedom at all. It never did, and it never will.”

    That is a bald-faced lie. Anyone who has ever audited someone through a heavy secondary, and seen the anguish and pain vanish, knows that statement is a lie. Just to give one small example.

    I admire Thomas Paine as much as the next freedom-loving person. Maybe we are talking about different kinds of freedom. Political freedom is one thing. Spiritual freedom is another. No doubt there are areas where they overlap, dealing as both do with life. But they are not the same thing.

    There used to be a saying back in the late 60s: “Scientology Works”. There is a lot of agreement with this truth, here on your blog. Most of us know that properly applied, Scientology frees in a way that nothing else ever has.

    Usually we are careful on this blog to distinguish between Miscavology and Scientology. Don’t mean to ruffle feathers here. I read Stanfield’s post several times. I really think I duplicated it. I fully understand the anger that he and so many others have, due to their experiences with Miscavology. But to say “”Scientology had nothing to do with freedom at all. It never did, and it never will” – sorry, I just could not let that go unchallenged.


  7. Allen. BEAUTIFUL!

  8. So much truth, thank you Marty

  9. Awesome book. I am a huge Thomas Payne fan. He completed it in prison within earshot of the Guillotine.

    Imagine writing a book with THAT background noise.

    One of America’s greatest tragedies is that he died a homeless drunk in New York City in Greenwich Village on 59 Grove street. Years ago, I went to New York and asked a cabbie where Thomas Payne Park was … he didn’t know.

    I was saddened because I was very pressed for time and couldn’t find it before my plane left and I had no wifi device.

    I will go there some day and toast that old madman on 59 Grove Street. Why?

    “Because certain as I am that when opinions are free whether in matters of religion and government truth will finally and powerfully prevail.”

    Only six people attended his funeral. And two were freed slaves.

    A Wonderful, Drunken Bodhisattva who wrote for all of us.

  10. Thanks for this recommendation.
    I gain tremendous insight from the viewpoints of others.
    I’ll be reading some Thomas Paine.

  11. LRH talks about the usual course of a Philosophy in any time and place in the physical universe. i.e. The Enlightened One formulates a philosophy of life. After their departure, it is codified and ritualized by lesser beings into a rhetoric that can be sold for profit to the masses of implanted, degraded beings who do not want a philosophy — they want to be told what to do and think so they don’t have to be responsible.
    Indeed, the genesis of the entire MEST universe in built on the impulse of Thetans to create an automaticity that will endure without the constant attention required by them to create, create, create. Thus, we get the decay and decline into not-isness, alter-isness, and ultimately, mystery.
    Every religion is built on the quicksand of Mystery. It is the Binding Force that causes persistence of the Physical Universe.
    Personally, it was my protest against participation in this disastrous dwindling spiral of Theta that brought me to the subject of Scientology. Application of the Factors, The Logics, The Axioms and the Standard Technology and Administration formulated by LRH can emancipate us from it.

  12. Felicitas Foster

    Isn’t it interesting that when you are on staff it is frowned upon to read anything but LRH?
    How can you think for yourself if you are not supposed to read something else than LRH?
    How can you grow if you always adhere to a very limited material?
    Didn’t LRH read so many different literatures to become the person he was with the variety of views ?
    Aren’t we supposed to live our lifes?
    How do you do that if you don’t walk around in the real world, meet tons of different people, get in touch with the planet and LOOK?
    How can we as Scientologist talk to people, live with people if we don’t know anything about their lifes?
    Where does the “R” comes in?
    Aren’t we in the business of communication?
    So for what reason aren’t the people while in the Co$ applying it to each other and the world around them?

    Here on this blog we finally communicate – theta, entheta, we share it all. This is the real Scientology and what LRH intended for us to do.

    Thanks, Marty, for this awesome opportunity. Your post is as every other one inspiring.


  13. Thanks Marty, am adding this to my list of “must reads”

    This quote:
    “It is impossible to calculate the moral mischief, if I may so express it, that mental lying has produced in society. When a man has so far corrupted and prostituted the chastity of his mind …”

    Took my breath away.

    This moral mischief could be carried further – at least in my own experience – to explain 1) loss of feelings 2) breakdown after OT VIII 3) nightmares

    And as far as I can tell — severe illness amongst many current and former active scientologists, including but not limited to cancer and death. The list is endless.

    Nothing but nothing quite torques your mind to have 1) thought A and profess undying devotion to 2) thought B

    wherein thought A and thought B are completely opposed.

    And to go back to the previous article “How Miscavige Killed Church Management” and the debate that comes up over and over — HOW could YOU have let this happen (insert any name for YOU) …

    The answer is: it happens when after much stress, fear and time and finally thought A changes INTO thought B … and you had not idea.

    For my money, I’d say this is where most INT current staff are. Very few are left at Int who have that internal mischief going on — thought A, but saying thought B.

    (those that formulate and execute an escape (JB most recently) I would say still know the DIFFERENCE between thought A and thought B and therefore escape)

    Yet, those still at INT who will go on National TV and lie THINK thought A IS thought B. No difference. No space to view.

    Others might call it brain-washing.

    I call it sorrow and suffering.

    “The awakened are few and hard to find.
    Happy is the house where a man awakes.

    And blessed are they who revere
    The man who awakes and follows the way.

    They are free from fear.
    They are free.

    They have crossed over the river of sorrow.”

    To me — this blog enables us to wake up. No small task but being done daily.


  14. When are you going to quit recommending Wogs as though you’ve duplicated LRH?!

  15. Dead right Allen. I call it spiritual blackmail. Once many years ago I was dating a girl whose staunchly Catholic, and suppressive, father had convinced her that her destiny was to be swimming in the fiery pits of hell for eternity. Not figuratively but literally. When I went over with her how this was just so much bunk I swear she lost a stone in weight right then and there. You could see the TA floating with relief. So the irony of it that my Church was doing the exact same thing!!! It was the tipping point for me, when my FSM told me outside the SH refectory a little over a year ago that by saying I had ended cycle on going up the Bridge in CofM this lifetime I was “forsaking my eternity” that I finally started waking up. (Thanks Pavan – no irony, you did me a big favour). I know now how the ex girlfriend felt.

    Culture’s not my strong point so I’ve yet to delve into T Paine, Jefferson et al like you learned gentlemen. But to quote the “Doc” from Back to the future “The future is what you make it”. (Or to quote the great Miley Cyrus: “Awesome”).

  16. My personal experience is completely the opposite than Allan’s statement, “I began to realize that the religion I was in had NOTHING to do with freedom. ”

    I don’t know what you experienced when you were audited, but for me there is no way that I could experience personal freedom without addressing the engrams that were entrapping me. My experience is that no man can truly experience freedom while trapped by his reactive mind. That’s why freedom has everything to do with the religion (Scientology). Thomas Paine had it right but in my opinion he was missing a key tool which would allow us average men, not so gifted as he may have been, to overcome those things which were keeping us trapped and unable to realize our own personal freedom.

    Thank god I was able to run into a Church of Scientology when I did.

  17. Marty, this reference is spot on. “Infidelity does not consist in believing, or in disbelieving; it consists of professing to believe what he does not believe.” This was what ultimately caused me to break with the Church – they do not walk their talk. They preach one thing and do quite another. They talk about “total freedom” and work towards total enslavement. They talk about “restoring self-determinism” and do the opposite.

  18. martyrathbun09

    Jeff, kinda like everything is reversed.

  19. martyrathbun09

    Friend of LRH, you may as well thank Tom Paine. He was ostracized in America for writing this book. John Adams said there was no American Revolution without Tom Paine before Age of Reason. Adams condemned him, with the rest of the founding fathers, after Paine challenged the lip service they paid religious plurality in the First Amendment. Paine inspired the Transcendalists (who were integral to correcting our flawed Constitution) as well as paved the way toward real freedom of conscience (and thus religion) in America. Had Paine not paved the way, LRH would never had been free to discover and publish what he did.

  20. That began in 1965.

    And L Ron Hubbard is the one who reversed it.

  21. martyrathbun09

    Or as Yogi Berra, the future ain’t what it used to be (paraphrase)

  22. martyrathbun09

    John, touch a nerve did I?

  23. martyrathbun09


  24. martyrathbun09


  25. I Live/Love Freedom

    Oh my,

    “I realized my eternity is mine, always was and always will be.”

    Marty, This is the perfect mantra for the Independent Movement!

    A mantra is a sound, syllable, word, or group of words that are considered capable of “creating transformation” (cf. spiritual transformation).[1] Their use and type varies according to the school and philosophy associated with the mantra.

    You guys are Awesome!

  26. Hubbard said it was not a Religion Friend of LRH, he used the institution of church just as a vehicle. Your atachements to scientology as a religion and the church are now holding you back. Let go of it and you can still “have”Scientology as a body of knowlegde and or an applied Philosphy. Of course if you feel that it is your religion than that is your right as laid down in the Constitution of the United States of America.

  27. Old Cuff,
    Superbly expressed.

  28. Sorry, forgot to give credit to the quoted words starting with “The Awakened are few …”

    Dhammapada: The Sayings of the Buddha — chapter “The Man Who is Awake


  29. The unwillingness of you people to recognize the sham of LRH is astounding.

    You’re right. Paine was spot on: “The success of one imposter gave encouragement to another.”

    Holy engram-encrusted Christ. Next stop, Delusion Station.

  30. John,
    You know I COULD say a number of things here. But, I sure hope you get to see LRH’s actual library someday. Do you good to read boy, lots a good.

    But first a whoopin’ to heighten your necessity level, and bring you to PT.

  31. Now, now Allen. Careful there. Don’t wanna backslide here do ya? Bite the hands extended and all? Hmmmmmmm?

  32. King Dude,
    Absolutely splendid!

  33. martyrathbun09

    Do like Dr Strangelove, Dude.

  34. martyrathbun09

    O, what you don’t get is that Hubbard approached the subject of the mind and spirit just as Paine described they ought be approached. But, somehow I don’t think you’ve read Hubbard of Paine.

  35. martyrathbun09

    CD, as you are sometimes wont to do – which understandable given you have no subjective reality on the subject – you’ve over-generalized.

  36. Years ago, my ex and I had a list of all the books LRH mentioned in his tapes. It was at least 20 pages long with about 30 books per pages. We had a collection of many many of those books on our library.

    I’m going to see if I can find that list again. Virgil Wilhite (RIP) used to find those books for us as he was into collectibles.

    LRH was extremely well read and didn’t hide the titles from any of us. Those same books are now referenced as minute “sound bites” in various glossaries in the CD sets.



  37. Just a little fact for ya.

    Throwing it in there.

    Makin’ sure I pull the pin first.

  38. Allen ~~
    Thank you for this very well written post. Extremely articulate.
    When they destroy families, there are long term consequences and side effects.
    There is an HCOB “Prediction and Consequences” which tells more.
    I wonder why RTC and OSA don’t get it ?
    Is it possible to tell your story (in a synopsis) of what the Church did in attempting to destroy your family and attack you ?
    Thanks !

  39. John Boice ~~
    Do you have any idea of how many times LRH recommended other AUTHORS
    right in his own P/Ls and HCOBs ?

  40. Here’s the deal: I have read Paine extensively–Jesuit education, philosophy-heavy– and wrote more papers on the Transcendentalist movement, and his continued resonance with skeptics and freethinkers. He’s one of my heroes, actually.

    Well, I’ve read Dianetics & History of Man. Tons of stuff on the internets. Enough to get a sense of his thinking. If you read a couple of Dan Brown novels, you know he’s no Proust and never will be. Read more Hubbard? Can anyone please offer up a better retort than that? His material has been available for years and NO–zero, zilch–serious scholar has ever or will call Hubbard’s writings original or important (except as an example of quackery). Genius rises to the top. It is recognized by its harmony with other instances of genius through consensus and debate and the literary/philosophical palette.

    This is all blah blah to y’all, I know, because you’ve become scholars of a compulsive’s lifetime of logorrhea. But keep reading Paine and those of his caliber, and it’ll fall into place one day, I swear.

  41. martyrathbun09

    O, That is because Dianetics and Scientology are doingnesses; not thinkingnesses. Scholars read. Read away.

  42. As usual, you fail to discriminate between the Church and the original applied philosophy, probably because you came into it so late, you were largely delivered an overt product. Thus you probably don’t have much experience of the original unadulterated, uncut good stuff.

    But I would like to acknowledge that you were betrayed, used, and abused, like many others who have posted here, by the organization you trusted to do much better by them.

    Be that as it may, your post eloquently confirms what has been posted here by many people – “the Church is dead” – and has been dying for along time now – but the original philosophy is very much alive and still helping people.

  43. martyrathbun09

    Allen, I suggest you not turn grains of truth into monuments and pyramids; else you wind up cutting yourself off from the fruits of observation.

  44. Sam, You always make me smile. Thank you, Love

  45. Payne’s analysis of Scripture is what gave me the guts to leave my Jesus cult. He took Occam’s razor and shaved the Bible clean.

    And the shaved face startled me!

    Anyone reading Payne would do well to use the same techniques on Scientology’s basic books and see what conclusions one draws.

    “What’s true for you is true for you.”

  46. martyrathbun09

    In fact, there is a beautiful passage in Age of Reason itself that is the predecessor of “what’s true or you is true for you.”

  47. Old Cuff, Beautifully put. Thank you.

  48. William,
    What a perfect description: “A Wonderful, Drunken Bodhisattva who wrote for all of us. “

  49. Allen,
    Dare I say it? Yep.

    Possibly, mayhaps, a question to check perhaps, at some point in the time stream, you may have done similarly to that which you object?

    That pin too, was pulled. By you as well.

  50. O (my),
    Interesting statement this: “His material has been available for years and NO–zero, zilch–serious scholar has ever or will call Hubbard’s writings original or important.”

    And THAT is important because…?

    Please, tell me, scholars, as in say Scholastics (you did say Jesuit didn’t you) are what again? They are authorities? And what is that? That’s important because…?

    You’re talking ‘scholars’ here right? You’re invoking scholars?! Really!?

    You’ve read a couple of books, never applied any of it, never been in session and never practiced any you are invoking ‘scholars’.


    That’s damn funny boy.

  51. Thomas Paine is a Worthy Oriental Gentleman??? Really???

  52. “john boice | September 2, 2010 at 7:39 pm | Reply

    When are you going to quit recommending Wogs as though you’ve duplicated LRH?!”

    Try looking at an earlier version of SOS where LRH
    recomends some of the smartest “wogs” [spit] in
    world history as inspiration.

    You are violating LRH precepts of looking and studying in your statement.

  53. The post above is addressed to Allen.

  54. Allen,

    As usual, you fail to discriminate between the Church and the original applied philosophy, probably because you came into it so late, you were largely delivered an overt product. Thus you probably don’t have much experience of the original unadulterated, uncut good stuff.

    But I would like to acknowledge that you were betrayed, used, and abused, like many others who have posted here, by the organization you trusted to do much better by them.

    Be that as it may, your post eloquently confirms what has been posted here by many people – “the Church is dead” – and has been dying for along time now – but the original philosophy is very much alive and still helping people.

  55. O, If you haven’t listened to some of the Congress lectures, like Anatomy of the Spirit of Man, I venture you have no sense of his ‘thinking’ at all. And beyond his thinking, his actual perceptions.

    It seems like ‘scholars’ often fail to understand why their ‘scholarly thinking’ falls on deaf ears among doers. To me, a great scholar is someone like Jim, who is our “Master of Qual”. He is a scholar because he knows the subject in great detail. He knows “what it is and what it ain’t”, and what one can DO with it.

    To me, you are a ‘drive-by dilettante’.
    And to me, genius stands outside of ‘consensus’, always. Someone said “50 million Frenchmen can’t be wrong”. What a joke! That’s the way to achieve a lowest common denominator.

    Recall when the ‘scholarly consensus’ was, “The earth is flat.” ?

    Well, enough said by me. Good luck in your search for credibility by consensus, and the ‘authoritative opinion’ on L Ron Hubbard.

  56. Allen, your characterizing it as a ‘fact’ does not in fact make it so. A thesis is not a fact. “Oh what a tangled web we weave…..”

  57. Hi Karen –

    I have a blog.

    It’s not very popular around here.

    If you click on my name above my post, it will take you there.

    Some of my story is on that blog in the form of my biography in Scientology. I was in for 16 years, mission staff for 7.5, public for the rest. The story on my blog only goes to around 1988 or so. There’s a lot more that I have yet to say when the time, and the form, and the event, is right.

    I try to tell the truth as I see it on that blog. I try to tell the good and the bad, because I believe the truth has no “side”, or fixed purpose or ideology.

    I do have to say, that even with so much that Marty disagrees with me about Scientology and L Ron Hubbard, he does still let my posts through here. I do notice that every time it happens, and I do appreciate it.

    It is clear that Marty does value the freedom of speech, and I respect that very much. Now, if he would just open up his own natterboard, we could really have a throwdown, and hash it all out!

    Thanks for your compliments.


    And now, because I am such a ham, I will leave you with a song:

    The strength of fields. Lord, let me shake
    With purpose. Wild hope can always spring
    From tended strength. Everything is in that.
    That and nothing but kindness. More kindness, dear Lord
    Of the renewing green. That is where it all has to start:
    With the simplest things. More kindness will do nothing less
    Than save every sleeping one
    And night-walking one
    Of us.
    My life belongs to the world. I will do what I can.

    Jame Dickey, from “The Strength of Fields”

  58. Dear Marty,

    In “The Age of Reason” Paine wrote:

    “My own mind is my own church. ”

    Yeah, Thomas Paine was a trouble maker. Long live trouble makers.

    We’re in good company.

    ML, Tom

  59. Wayne Froemke (AKA "Safe")

    I’m not a fan of Lincoln. Though he SAID many great things, with further study, I discovered he was a hypocrite and a liar (and much worse) who caused irreparable harm (as David Miscavige) to many people.

    By Lincoln “recommending” Paine in itself doesn’t carry much weight with me. In spite of that, I do fully concur with Marty’s recommendation of “The Age of Reason” by Thomas Paine. I also suggest reading Paine’s booklet, “Common Sense”.

    I read “The Age of Reason” before I got involved in Scientology through the Church of Scientology. TAOR gave me many understandings and a sane base of principles which helped me recognize fairly quickly the suppressive actions in the CoS and so I did not become a bad effect of it.

    Paine’s works are soothing ointment for the Free Soul and those not so Free.

  60. martyrathbun09

    On that we agree.

  61. Every religion has gems that bejewel it’s best intentions.

    And IMHO the teaching “What’s true for you is true for you” and the accompanying writings about integrity are the best “stable datum” a new person can hold onto if he or she chooses the Scientology path.

    Independent Scientology won’t revert to cult status again, if people are able to view the tech through the lens of “Functional Mythology” or whatever lens one chooses and if they are fully aware and can identify the cult dynamics that exist in the current church and say “no” to them.

    Geir Isene in his blog discusses this and illustrates how people were forced to take views they didn’t hold. LRH writes that this is wrong.

    If people are free to view Scientology mythology as stories to live by rather than actual history, then they are empowered to self direct their Scientology bridge free from the burden of enforced views.

    Personally, the book I feel is the next “Age of Reason” for our age is “Virus of the Mind” by Richard Brodie. Brodie was the original writer of Microsoft Word and a brilliant man.

    Memes are akin to Engrams in many ways. They attach to our brains without consent and run us in directions we don’t want to go. And getting rid of them takes hard conscious work.

    And Brodie recommends practices similar to TR0 to do it: Zen.

  62. Tony DePhillips

    Here is a great quote from R&D vol 9 called The Code of Behavior. ( It is an expansion on the code of Honor) 18 Feb. 1952
    “Definition of Invalidation: Invalidation is the inhibition of an individual’s use of force, emotion or thought, or the deprivement of his ability to use these by enforcing his use, by inhibiting his use of them. In other words, enforcement or inhibiting of a person’s force, emotion or thought adds up to invalidation of the person. A workable definition of invalidation.” ~LRH

    This is basically all that occurs within the walls of DeMon-ology.

  63. Wayne Froemke (AKA "Safe")

    First, bravo for reading Paine. America would not be what it is today (deteriorated) had everybody read and understood what he’s saying.

    For your information, Scientology raised my IQ from 116 to 148. Raised IQ’s, by applying (real) Scientology, are typical. In my book, this is significant help to assist one’s ability to resolve problems in life.

    Perhaps you can name an alternative, non-scientologist scholar who can raise IQ? I’ve only found this being done regularly by trained Scientologists.

  64. Excellent blog post and book recommendation.

    Some more quotes from Paine and one from Lincoln I appreciate and agree with:

    “I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish Church, by the Roman Church, by the Greek Church, by the Turkish Church, by the Protestant Church, nor by any Church that I know of. My own mind is my own Church.”[Thomas Paine, The Age of Reason]

    “When I do good, I feel good. When I do bad, I feel bad. That’s my religion.” [Abraham Lincoln]

    “Independence is my happiness, and I view things as they are, without regard to place or person; my country is the world, and my religion is to do good.” [Thomas Paine, The Rights of Man]

    As for how I tie this in with auditing and organizations, I like this quote from LRH:

    “The service being supplied by your org is auditing even when you are training auditors – for if they are well trained good auditing is furnished to the area around them.

    “Staff members get auditing. They furnish auditing. Staff members get trained as auditors. By training other auditors well they furnish auditing.

    “The admin done is done to furnish auditing and training of auditors.

    “The ethics put in provides an environment in which auditing is possible and in which it can be taught.

    “All roads lead to auditing.

    “Stats depend on auditing being done and being taught.

    “People progress from left to right on the org board to be audited or trained in auditing.

    “You are raising your area little by little by auditing.

    “Auditing is something one does. It must be done.

    “The HCO ES, the OES and the PES act to keep the org there and pass people through who are audited or being trained to audit.

    “An org is an auditing factory that also trains people to audit.”

    20 December 1969

    That’s how I view REAL Scientology. It’s about auditing. Skip the rest.

    P.S. One of my pcs, who is on New Era Dianetics, just finished another NED action two nights ago and is winning big time, feeling more in present time, less reactive, etc. I mention this because auditing IS occurring in the independent field, and those who are auditing should make it known. And if you aren’t auditing, yet are trained to do so, what reason do you have for that? You have the power to restore lost life force units to beings, bringing them to higher states of existence and increased cause level. If you need assistance, there are many people like myself who will be glad to help you.

  65. Marty, for me, mentioning Yogi Berra’s quote was like Déjà Vu all over again.

    Paine was an astonishing thinker, an example to us all not to accept “commonly held views” just because they are commonly held. And he always thought from first principles, based on observations devoid of vested interest or bias, a rare quality. You are right, he truly thought for himself.

    It’s no suprise he was so heavily black PR’d (even his corpse was conveniently lost at sea) because his stuff was pure TNT to any establishment that wanted to dominate and serve a vested interest, and still is to this day.

  66. “Drive by dilettante” – Valkov, you nailed it. That is a phrase to remember and apply when appropriate.

    I remember once, raving (positive) about Scientology to a friend of mine from college. Very bright guy, very interested in what I was saying. But when I did a meter demo (which worked perfectly), he said “before I draw any conclusions, I’ll have to take it up to the Physics Dept & see what the experts up there have to say about it”.

    Bright as they may be, some people simply cannot trust the validity of their own observations. LRH talks about this phenomenon quite a bit.

    Also, thanks to you and Jim for your rebuttals of Stanfield. I put up my response to his first comment earlier today, but I think I hit the wrong “reply” button.


  67. one of those who see

    Started listening to the London Congress on Dissemination & Help.
    Lecture 1 is a wonderful accompaniment to Marty’s Blog today.
    From lecture 1:
    “…if it is true for you, it’s true. and if it’s not true for you, it still isn’t true. Not even if Ron told you is it true. It’s just not true, that’s all.
    And any time somebody comes along and says, “Faith. You must have faith,” he’s not talking Scientology. He might be talking something else but he’s not talking Scientology.
    Now, let’s see how a person would make his gains in this field. He would make his gains in this field by being shown a way. But how far could we show him this way? We’d have to show him the way in such a way as it didn’t invalidate him nor bring him to a preconclusion.
    Now, believe me that’s delicate ground right there. And that is so difficult of solution that all of auditor training developed over a period of thirteen years, has been devoted to grooving that in so that the auditing occurred with the maximal freedom of the preclear to find the truth, the minimal walking off into confusions, the maximum gain in terms of truth, the minimum education. Now, that is a very interesting tightrope.”

    Then later he writes about Buddhists starting to take it all on faith. And then goes on with the following:

    “… And after you’ve got everybody totally believing that they can take it all on faith and be comfortable because there’s enough truth in what you are saying to make them very, very comfortable about it, then is the time to start putting up billboards on the side of the “Tao” or “the Way” or something like that. Advertised facts. The slight political advantage of getting everybody to believe, also, this little tiny point is also true.
    Well, they never find it out because they have no tradition of finding out things for themselves or recognizing truth when they see it. And when they have no tradition left of that, they become slaves…” LRH

    This is a great lecture, easy to listen to and of course better to get these quotes in context.
    It is incredible what is happening here. We are evolving as Scientologists. I truly believe that with what we now know and are learning daily, the DM disaster would never happen again. It would be impossible.

  68. O quoted Paine as saying: “The success of one imposter gave encouragement to another.”

    What’s remarkable O, is that you are doing exactly that.

  69. Hi Allen,

    Thanks for the point to your blog. I value different perspectives because I consider them essential for comparative value in critical thinking. And, I to, appreciate Marty’s willingness to post differing voices.

    That “ham” thing you’ve got going on is just fine. And I liked your playfulness in suggesting a Marty Natterboard. LOL!

  70. Tony DePhillips

    Great post John!!

  71. Tony DePhillips

    One of those,
    Yes…that is one of my all time favorites!!

  72. Allen,

    After the nice things I said earlier I have to now add – I give that last bit a Facepalm.

  73. one of those who see

    Excellent John. Just reading that Ed today!
    Hope you don’t mind me contributing to your motion here.
    Another quote form same ED: LRH ED 67 INT “HOW TO RAISE STATS”
    “Auditors are valuable. An org is valuable if it audits and trains auditors. If an org is valuable, it will get paid by the public to be there. But it is only valuable if it audits and trains auditors.
    Small livingness courses, defense, policy, the OEC, promotion, all these are valuable too. But only to the degree they get people in to get audited and trained as auditors.”

    People new to reading here can check out “What happened to training?” on the Friends of LRH site. They show stats that tell the story.
    On the “Survey results” blog I posted some stats from The New York Org Mag. At first glance it looks good. Lots of completions. Look closer : Zero Academy Level completions.
    Thus, the church has lost its way

  74. I don’t know what you want.
    Do you know why you are doing this?

  75. John,
    Thank you for that. That should be Chinese Schooled in every SO org, every Class V org, every Mission, and made into a card that is given to every person in Scientology.

  76. Your humble servant

    Nice recommendation, Marty, thank you.
    The lofty sentiments of Thomas Paine seem to have stimulated more people than usual to post remarks attacking Scientology and LRH. It is very rude and uncalled for anyone to make an appearance on this blog for the purpose of making nasty, mean, condescending, or denigrating remarks about L. Ron Hubbard and Scientology. Most of the participants here consider themselves to be Independent Scientologists, or at least have a courteous respect for those who are. One is of course entitled to one’s own beliefs, evaluations, and opinions. That does not mean it is all right to bluntly throw one’s negative opinions and conclusions in the faces of others who may not and probably do not agree. That is uncivilized behavior.

  77. William~He just needed some good auditing, I’m sure. Hope’s he’s gotten some by now!

  78. Y’all blow me away!
    I am continually honored and thrilled by y’all…and yes, I’m generalizing on purpose. That’s all I can say.

  79. John~I agree totally. I’m working on it now thanks to Marty’s blog, with all the realizations it brings me about the reality of the CofM, blowing away my fixed ideas and false ideas, the ones that so nicely kept me “in the box” an SP or SPs wanted me in. (isn’t there a box implant too – interesting) I am definitely thinking outside the box these days!
    Thank you for the theta reminders!

  80. First Principle

    The dozen Opinion Leader’s in History listed in the dedication page for Science of Survival has been removed, including dear Thomas Paine. Cannot understand what possible risk of leaving alone LRH’s thank you to these dozen or so men. Elbert Hubbard, LRH’s uncle, wrote a very short but effusive bio of Paine, part of a series of “great men” biographies. Best bio is by Keane.

    Paine died in a rooming house where the current “Marie’s Crisis” bar stands today in Greenwich Village New York. Named after his pamphlet, it has a cast iron plaque dedicated to him in the front hall.

    He would have found Scientology on his own as a young man, laughing at all his fearful family and friends. He would have joined staff, preferring to roll up his sleeves rather than work for mere money, and loving Div 6 to no end. He would have been blown out, with both his own auditing and what help he gave others. He would have made a splash here and there, being heavily sought after as a candidate for every org above his own. He’d wait for advanced training until he could understand all the outpoints. He’d become frustrated at the lack of autonomy for local orgs, and all the conflicting compliance reports taking up all his time, rather than just getting lots of people onto basic services – no matter how “upstat” they were or weren’t. He would have routed off after a few years, dismayed at the untenable conditions for staff. He’d manage to pay off his freeloaders debt, while reeling with the fact he had to get a money job, rather than use his gifts for an adequate subsistence on staff. He would eventually cog on the disparity between service and prices. He’d regret his hard-won status with the IAS. He’d read EVERYTHING on the net, comfortable with what fits and what doesn’t. He’d probably be laying low until he took full delivery of his paid-for services, not wanting to engage in a refund cycle. He’d be looking for a viable way to get up the bridge, outside of the vulture culture, knowing that his only assurance of standard tech was his own study tech. Looking for a way to practice with his fellows without legal ramifications, if he were here, and there were avenues for training and auditing outside the Institutionalized Church, he’d be your modern Thomas Paine. And he’d use every media outlet yet invented to help secure his fellows’ freedom to practice scientology without tribute.

  81. I think Allen is talking about KSW policy.

    Scans of Common Sense can be found here. Cool website…wish we had one for LRH like this.

  83. Great post. Just from what you wrote I can totally see it, but of course I will read The Age of Reason in full. Looking forward to it.

  84. When I rehabbed my political education, oddly enough via a study tech school, and I was reading over my kids stuff – it occured to me that I gave up my freedoms in the ‘church’. I felt like I had a session, remembering the founding fathers and what they stood for. And the school was studying Thomas Paine too! As I looked around at the parents whom were also a member of the church…thinking maybe they will start to see the group in a new light, if only they read their kids homework, *giggles*.

    Then I looked at the church, and my experiences, and wondered why am I involved, at all? I am not happy. I knew the truth, I had to face the truth.
    If it wasnt for the tech, and the hopes of affording to buy it someday.
    I would have been gone many moons previous. It’s amazing how much you give up your freedoms, or tolerant what goes on, or I should say, keep oneself in a group where you constantly have to fight for your rights, even civil rights. But reading Paine got me back on track, little by little.

    Wonderful article again, thanks Marty.

  85. I agree, there is 2 ways to look at freedom. I loved the tech, but the group was impinging on my freedom and survival.

  86. That response was to Friend of LRH, not ‘cat daddy’

  87. John
    Thanks to DM, Scientology is a subject that most self-respecting ‘wogs’ have the sense to stay away from. Because of this the VAST majority of the population of this planet you happen to co-habit with are ‘wogs’.

    LRH did not intend this to be a derogatory term, nor did he intend that Scientologists live on an island and cut themselves off from the comm lines of the world. Read ‘What we expect of a Scientologist’ if you want a simple clarification, or better witness LRH’s love of people and his eagerness to communicate with and befriend all manner of ‘wogs’

    It will be a sad and lonely planet for any Scientologist who buys into DM’s implied redefinition of ‘wog’ which is something akin to ‘ignorant, stupid, worthless sub-human animal unworthy of attention’.

    Way to go to smash your own 4th dynamic.

  88. Allen,
    OK. You got some attention. Now how about you slide that soap-box over a little to the right until you find yourself the correct audience. You won’t find the agreement you are so craving on this forum.

  89. Wayne
    I love reading your posts. Thank you for your continued sane and theta contributions.

  90. LOL. Biting my tongue here. The ne plus ultra of self control. 😀

  91. Thanks Publius, I rather like ‘drive by dilettante’ myself!

    Allen Stanfield’s got game and is always looking for worthy opponents. His thesis is that everything is working out the way LRH set it up to work out. It’s like a fixed idea he has.

    On the other hand, he sometimes has intelligent things to say, but often couches them in such propagandistic language that most people just walk away shaking their heads, or assume he’s trolling even when he’s not. Sometimes it’s hard to tell, maybe even he does not always know?

    Anyway, fear not to smack him upside his head if he seems to deserve it. His head is very hard. Remember the kid’s toy TV commercial from a few years ago: “WeebleWobbles wobble but they don’t fall down”.

  92. You’re totally right !
    Durant describes the processes so well.
    Everybody should read it !

  93. FYI, you are not the only educated person on this blog. I have a degree in Lit, studied philosophy, especially Eastern Religion etc. and now I have returned to school to get a Masters in Education. I have other certificates etc. My point– there is a difference between intellectual stimulation, excellent writing, or philosophic bantering and helping another person to achieve what many people have only talked about–higher awareness. When you audit someone, it is the most beautiful experience because a person who has a loss, an upset, or other pain, is able to release it all. As a result, they can see something differently, actually feel ligher, and experience a great epiphany. Awareness is a state which can grow and grow or diminish like a burning candle. Proper auditing, simply put, makes one more and more aware of self and surroundings.
    Talking philosophy, religion, literature, poetry, art….I love it all. But, when it comes to doing something about ones unwanted condition, or when it comes to true enlightenment of one’s self, Scientology wins hands down from my experience. You see, it is the difference between reading about something, thinking about something, or doing something about something. Each has its place. IF you do not like the applied philosophy of Scientology, I am wondering why you are posting here. It is okay if you don’t like it. But, I’m just curious as why you bother to comment.

  94. my post was directed to “O”.

  95. “It is incredible what is happening here. We are evolving as Scientologists. I truly believe that with what we now know and are learning daily, the DM disaster would never happen again. It would be impossible.”

    Perhaps LRH wanted us to learn that lesson now and not in 300 Years. It could be he had fun thinking about it, but saw no other way to teach us that lesson.

  96. >Read more Hubbard? Can anyone please offer up a better retort than that? (snip) …This is all blah blah to y’all, I know, because you’ve become scholars of a compulsive’s lifetime of logorrhea.

    You ask for a retort (to what, I don’t quite know) and then assume a viewpoint for everybody. Not sure why you bothered, personally.

  97. John N.
    Well …there you go! I love Paine, but I love Abe too. Getting “the basics” really means get back to point of why the Church was established to begin with: freeing beings. Organizations need lots of money to be supported and they become like the Venus Fly trap in that old comic spoof Lil’Shop of Horrors: “feed me , feed me, I’m hungry!
    Audit in the park, audit in a garage, audit in a freaken’ mansion if you have one, but just do it. That is the spirit. Ron even says many times over that, essentially,groups are nutty. All aberation is 3rd Dynamic. Auditor plus pc is greater than the bank. Group surpressing pc by getting other determined keys in bank. Group adding “having to haves” before one can do is dev-t and pushes pc off purpose, which keys in bank.
    LRH insists that it takes a whole organization to support the auditor and it cost lots of money to train etc. Well, maybe so if your trying to take over the whole damn planet. It is obvious Church doesn’t seem to work like he postulated. Seems like auditors and pcs are getting along fine out there! If they werent’ …it would be all over the internet, but all I read is wins. Let’s just keep it simple! All we can do is one person, one auditor at a time. That’s how it is. Good for you for auditing.

  98. My bookie is giving me even odds that john boice is a troll…..

    Funny how they always stand out clear as daylight. How the pattern is always the same – find one thing in Marty’s post that they can attach a snide remark to, and then make the remark. No background given, no explanation, just an accusatory statement (an introvertive one at that) thrown in the middle in isolation.

    And another funny thing: these trolls NEVER EVER ANSWER BACK. Never.

    john boice, your comm cycle is out. Report to cramming please.


  99. To back you up, here’s a little thing I say to others a lot[1]:

    “Make up your own damn mind because I’m not doing it for you.”

    Adjust the tone to suit the reality of the listener.

    [1] Usually in the context of IT – what programs work well, what designs are good and what are bad, and so on. But it works just as well in other areas. If pitched correctly, it makes people actually think for themselves.


  100. crashingupwards

    Marty, I like your opening the discussion into areas such as this. Thomas Paine was best described as a Diest, as were the group of Freemasons he assocciated and lived, both in America and abroad, such as Franklin, Washington, Lafayette and Bonneville. Its unclear if he himself was a freemason, but he wrote “Origins of Freemasonry”, his take on it, and it was publish posthumously. Originally, its speculated that it would have been a section of “Age of Reason” but for various reason was not included.
    Anyway, its nice to expand the discussion here.

  101. For those who haven’t read the Age of Reason, it is available online at this website:

    Excerpt from Ron’s journal 1968 by L. Ron Hubbard:

    “Now there’s something I’ve been meaning to point out to you about Scientology that’s not been mentioned in some years and it needs to be mentioned because of the exactness of Class 8 and the stress on compliance with the exact processes. I don’t think Class 8 was well understood. The message was not one that one had to comply, it was that when one used these exact processes in this exact way got 100% tech on all of his preclears. The message was that we had achieved 100% tech with these exact processes wherever they were exactly applied and with one or more Class 8s in every org we could achieve 100% results which we are now doing.

    Now this is what I haven’t pointed out for some time. There are two branches to Scientology. One is Scientology the philosophy, it is a religious philosophy, but it is a philosophy and that is something you use to think with, to wonder with, to accept or reject and the other is Scientology the applied philosophy and that is where it applies directly to processing. Now there’s al lot more to Scientology of course than processing. Philosophy means a love or pursuit of wisdom or a search for the underlying causes and principles of reality. We certainly have that in the body of Scientology — a great number of principles and causes exist in Scientology today. It’s probably the largest written and spoken body of work of any philosophy ever undertaken. Out of this many things can be made and of it we can say such things as what is true for you is true for you in Scientology. This is a vast area of observations in the humanities. It is yours to think with, work with, accept or reject as you wish. It is still there, it is still valuable. No matter how old the book is, no matter how old the tape, it is still part of the body of Scientology known as philosophy. There’s nothing authoritarian about it, it is yours to accept or not as you see fit. It is Scientology the philosophy. Nothing has changed it.

    Now there’s this other thing called applied Scientology or processing. Because it obtains a result and is valuable to you personally, processing could seem to be the whole of Scientology. Well it isn’t. Goodness, when you think of the number of policy letters we have on organization and these other things and look at this new third party law, that is actually something you think with, not something you process with. Now, Scientology processing today is made up only of those things which apply uniformly to all cases. Processing is made up of common denominators which apply to all life. There are no variables, no different cases, and this is a considerable achievement. It is a specialized form of Scientology and a specialized use. And these exact processes must be exactly done to produce an exact result. It’s like making pie. If you don’t use the same ingredients the same way in each case why you don’t get pie. And we call this standard tech. And if an auditor is to see it then you really have to get him to do it exactly that way a few times and suddenly he does see it and by doing it why he sees in the preclear that it is the right way to do it and after that he doesn’t require any further persuasion — he has seen it — so it is true for him. I doubt you could make a Class 8 trained auditor do tech in any non-standard way. He has seen the fantastic precision of modern processes — he knows he can get results that way and so he does it without any variation. He isn’t doing it because I say so, he’s doing it because it works and he knows he can make real pie. Not to compare you to a pie, of course. ”

    Here is a link to an MP3 of Ron’s Journal 1968:

    You might want to download and preserve it before it disappears again from

    To my way of thinking, there are really three aspects to all this – the two branches of Scientology as described in RJ 68 and the cultural environment of the current Church of Scientology. Separating all three has been a good and valuable exercise for me.

  102. martyrathbun09

    Maria, Thanks a lot for this.

  103. martyrathbun09

    Yes, under his definition of Deism in Age of Reason, I consider LRH a Deist.

  104. martyrathbun09

    Sam, thanks for exposing yet another example of propaganda by redefinition of words.

  105. martyrathbun09

    First Principle, Beautiful. Just beautiful.

  106. I would think that a study of man and the history of man (Age of Reason, but also Science of Survival and a host of other secular and non-secular works) would be even more germane as then one would also understand the ‘why’ of it, not just the fact of it.

    LRH had it pegged when he said we must study man to understand ourselves. It is man we need to study just as deeply in order to understand rights and freedoms, expecially on this planet. Then we could separate out intrinsic freedoms from created rights and freedoms, which have less value being attached institutions.

    So I feel it is not so much the religion, or even the “church”, as it is the high priests and their taskmaster running it. I have worked and taken servies in missions and orgs, AOs, SHs and Flag, and there were many people (auditor, waiter/ress, cook, reception) that were the nicest people I could want to meet. And even at one time the regges actually regged on-p0licy, getting a TE from Tech Services and caring enough to ensure the public got what THEY needed, not what some exec ordered. Of course, as the cancer from the top spread throughout the network of churches and missions, that began to diminish and now Mordor contaminated it all. As LRH has said, “by their actions….”

  107. Independent Scientologist

    As I recall, my first Standard Dianetics session – delivered by a student auditor – was done in a spare unused bathroom in an Org. Fine session. Still remember the cognition from the chain we blew. The location didn’t bother me at all. An auditor, a PC, a comm cycle, a process – what more do you need?

  108. Felicitas makes a very important point. How can one have a breadth of knowledge (and thus responsibility and control) about the fourth dynamic without widely reading,and especially reading of the great thinkers and philosphers like Paine (who was also a man of great practical CONFRONT and courage ). Thank you Marty for inspiring further study. I know I will read more Paine (and a bio of him too) as soon as I can. Currently I am in Ho Chi Minh City (Saigon), Vietnam increasing my knowledge by making connections with other peoples and cultures (and if you are an American of my generation – high school and college in the 60s) Vietnam is a startling and highly emotional experience. ARC Triangle ALWAYS works.

  109. Valkov, isn’t it “100 million Elvis fans can’t be wrong” or something like that? Actually I am familar with your quote and just to back you up with some proof as to your point about Frenchman (and the common demominator) – two words – “Jerry Lewis” ………..(VERY popular in France for those of you who don’t know that)

  110. VERY beautifully stated Jewel. Would you please send me an email at as I have a specific comm for you.

  111. Wayne, I always enjoy your posts. PLEASE do yourself a huge intellectual and historical knowledge favor (which you will very much enjoy and appreciate) and read William Lee Miller’s “Lincoln’s Virtues.” You may have been fed out of context black PR on Honest Abe. Lincoln ONLY became involved in politics again in 1854 to stop the expansion of slavery. He had NO other political agenda. This was the ONLY issue in the six 1858 Lincoln Douglas debates where Lincoln defended a black woman’s rights to the fruits of her labors as the equal of any white man’s. Even though Lincoln promised the South that he would not touch slavery there as it was then protected by the Constitution, BECAUSE he was the most eloquent nation wide spokesman against slavery, the South would NEVER accept him as their President and THEN seceeded from the Union. Do not buy the revisionist thinking – slavery was the ONLY issue at that time. You can read about this in Lincoln’s Second Inaugural Address.

    Lincoln said “…and that these dead shall not have died in vain and that our country shall have a new birth of freedom, and that government of the people, by the people, for the people shall not perish from the Earth.” At the beginning of that address in Gettysburg Lincoln postulates that the purpose of this war is to test whether any country founded on the principle that all men are created equal can in fact endure. He fought the civil war to preserve democracy in a world where it hardly existed.

    No man is perfect, but the TRUE story of Lincoln and his thinking (because he was a philospher and great writer as well) shows him to be an even greater figure than the myth.

    Sorry for such a long post, but along with Thelonious Monk, Art Pepper (alto sax), MLK, Willie Mays, Joe Montana and Fred Astaire, (and some others) Lincoln is one of my heroes.

  112. And with the First Principle, the lies dissolve.

  113. Great differentiation:
    ” Goodness, when you think of the number of policy letters we have on organization and these other things and look at this new third party law, that is actually something you think with, not something you process with.”

    That is it; you think with policy; it isn’t as exact as processing. Wow, big difference !
    Go into the church and ask of them to think !
    Pure LRH !

    Thanks Maria

  114. Mary Lee,
    Your post and this comment ‘if it wasn’t for the tech’ echoes the LRH Executive Directive quotes above. All of it, the OEC, orgs, posts, ‘command intention’, is for the delivery of the tech. ACTUAL DELIVERY. Not ‘theoretical’ as in some program, with targets, and orders and motion from here to there, but no actual being in session or on an auditing skill course.

    The Church exists to deliver auditing and train auditors who audit. In that wise, where auditing is occurring and training of auditors is underway, one finds the actual Church.

    THE Major Departure, THE Situation in the ‘Church of Scientology’ today – absence or at best an irreducible minimum of auditing and training of auditors, and under DM, the factual reversal of the tech (in all three areas of ethics, tech and admin) to trap beings rather than free them.

    It it weren’t for the technology, there rest of all this stuff wouldn’t be there and factually if it gets in the way of application, toss it.

    I understand your comment. It’s the crux of this whole shebang.

  115. O – I am curious about any spiritual considerations or beliefs you may have? Also interested in your intellectual or philosophical heroes?

  116. Boice,
    Wow, use of a question mark AND an exclamation mark! Mastery of writing!


    PS: Something against WOGS have you? You probably already not-ised, whoops, I mean KNOW this, but wogs made the clothes you are wearing, the computer you type on, grew the food you ate yesterday, researched and wrote just about every valuable discover that LRH examined, borrowed and used, designed and made the car you drive, probably built your house, apartment or hut that you live in, fly the planes you ride in, built the e-meter, and last but not least, comprise most of the population of this planet. So, whatdya got against Wogs, hmmm?!

  117. Like the Bizarro Supermen, where they go to the bank with a gun and put money in.

  118. Sam,
    A cultural pattern is continually fostered within the Church of Scientology to EXCLUDE and invalidate “WOGS”. Yet, contained within it’s own philosophy is the primary premise that Exclusion is the basic cause of War.

    If one of the AIMS of Scientology is a World without War…


    Shit, my computer just melted trying to figure that one out…Oh, hey, just got an answer:


    OK, computer fine now. Had to hit the Ironic Button.


  119. Look, I realize I come across as a real a-hole here, but it just seriously chaps my shanks that folks trust Hubbard’s intentions given the MOUNTAINS of evidence that he was a confidence man, albeit a much more intellectually curious and dedicated one than most. People who do not benefit from lying about him, even admired him, have testified to his bankruptcy as a person. Just because an individual or institution produces a complex cosmology which can be broken down and revered for its dynamism does not make it true, ultimately–or, perhaps, in this case, redeem the intention. For instance, the Jesuit tradition, since I mentioned it, exposed me to a rigorous scholasticism, no better and no less rigorous than the study of your chosen subject. But, and this is a big but, in the end it Has to be rejected because of the ultimate corruption of the Source. It short circuits itself and, because it ultimately must yield to the orthodoxy of its parent institution (the Vatican), its Intention must be questioned. So one must reject the point of departure, even having reaped the benefits of the exercise, if we can’t trust the makers. Untruth often begets truth, but that truth is our own in the end.

    Why am I here? Why do I care? You folks here in this forum are clearly intelligent, articulate, dedicated, the whole bit. It’s an admirable group. And maybe it’s in really really poor taste to piss on your source of satisfaction. But I see you elevating a charlatan, cleansing him of his sins, justifying here, whitewashing there. He was a science fiction writer. His craft was to convince. Science fiction can contain serious philosophy, but fiction also has a very specific function. If I were to start a church based on Dune, you’d know I was worshiping the aesthetic, the adventure, and not the hodgepodge of irreconcilables therein. Important to note that those elements were reconciled for the cohesion of the story. Symmetry and truth are not always the same things.

  120. Ancient Wog Proverb: He who pull pin go boom.

  121. He’s bigger there than Elvis, Lady Gaga and Pee Wee Herman put together! But not bigger than bread.

  122. Joe,
    Straight, No Chaser :-), pure genius, that is, inspired and from Life itself to Life itself.

  123. Maria~Thank you for the link. Just listened to it. WoW 🙂 Gotta LuV LRH!

  124. O’S space craft landed on the grass in Hyde Park, London. His Sudden Appearance had caused a great terror in the population of Earth. He exited and walked quickly to Speaker’s Corner, mounted the ready soap box and raised his megaphone. Standing in the eery green light that shone from his mighty air ship, he pronounced, “I AM HERE TO SAVE YOU PEOPLE! YOU PEOPLE HAVE UNWILLINGNESS TO RECOGNIZE WHAT I POINT OUT! REPENT! REPENT WHILE THERE’S STILL TIME! YOU PEOPLE HAVE NOT YET BEEN TO DELUSION STATION LIKE ME! I HAVE READ A SMALL AMOUNT OF WHAT YOU BELIEVE, BUT I HAVE READ TONS AND TONS (23,567 pounds to be exact) OF OTHER STUFF WRITTEN ABOUT OTHER STUFF! IN FACT, I HAVE READ THE TITLES OF MANY TOMBS OF WISDOM! I EVEN READ A SENTENCE WITH THE WORD HUBBARD IN IT! KNEEL BEFORE ME, BOW AND REPENT!”

    Emphasizing his last word, O lost his balance, fell off the soap box and rolled onto the grass, unfortunately encountering a stray dog turd.

    “Oh! Food!” he exclaimed happily as he began to eat.

  125. “You will do me the justice to remember, that I have always strenuously supported the Right of every Man to his own opinion, however different that opinion might be to mine.
    He who denies to another this right, makes a slave of himself to his present opinion, because he precludes himself the right of changing it.”
    Okay, getting blown away by the Intro even. DM is running that Service Facsimile right there…precluding himself (and his followers) the right to changing it.

  126. Seperate the subject Scientology from the COS in the minds of people. Reminding people that L Ron Hubbard said this:

    The Creation of Human Ability, L. Ron Hubbard, 1953.

    “Society, thirsting for more control of more people substitutes religion
    for the spirit, the body for the soul, an identity for the individual
    and science and data for truth. In this direction lies insanity,
    increasing slavery, less knowingness, greater scarcity and less society.

    “Scientology has opened the gates to a better World. It is not a
    psycho-therapy nor a religion. It is a body of knowledge which, when
    properly used, gives freedom and truth to the individual.”

    Making it easier to let go of the “church” as it is merely a chosen orginizational structure for dissemination:

    Letter to Helen O’Brien, 1953

    “I await your reaction on the religion angle. In my opinion, we
    couldn’t get worse public opinion than we have had or have less
    customers with what we’ve got to sell. A religious charter would be necessary in Pennsylvania or NJ to make it stick. But I sure could make it stick. We’re treating the present time beingness, psychotherapy treats the past and the brain. And brother, that’s religion, not mental science.
    Best Regards,


    This is a deliberate PR Move because:

    L. Ron Hubbard, 1952, History of Man, Chapter 8

    “Theta clearing is about as practical and simple as repairing a shoe lace. It is nothing to do with hypnotism, voodooism, charalatanism, monkeyism or theosophy. Done, the thetan can do anything a stage magician can do in the way of moving objects around. But this isn’t attained by holding one’s breath or thinking right thoughts or voting Republican or any other superstitous or mystic practice. So for the reason I brought up, rule out, auditor, any mumbo jumbo or mysticism,
    spiritualism, or religion.”

    And this wich is intresting.

    Fundamentals of Thought, L. Ron Hubbard, 1956, Bridge Publishing, 1983 edition, p. 7.

    “Scientology is a branch of psychology which treats of [sic] human

    Hubbard Communications Office Policy Letter (HCOPL) 29 Oct. 1962, “Religion”

    And the final fireworks:

    “Scientology 1970 is being planned on a religious organization basis
    throughout the world. This will not upset in any way the usual
    activities of any organization. It is entirely a matter for accountants
    and solicitors.”

    No comment – this speaks for itself!

  127. Allen is not looking for agreement, but to move people from theirs.

    He is failing to recognize the truth inherent in any viewpoint, and the folly of insisting ones own truth should be anothers.

    Revisit your Narawhona alanzo…then toss in some Heyzeus…you have not found your voice in this choir.


  128. Like this fine Gentleman Will Durant

    William James Durant (November 5, 1885 – November 7, 1981) was a prolific American writer, historian, and philosopher. He is best known for The Story of Civilization, 11 volumes written in collaboration with his wife Ariel and published between 1935 and 1975. He was earlier noted for The Story of Philosophy, written in 1926, which one observer described as “a groundbreaking work that helped to popularize philosophy.”[1]

    Will and Ariel Durant were awarded the Pulitzer Prize for General Non-Fiction in 1968 and the Presidential Medal of Freedom in 1977.

  129. Jewel,

    IMHO this is one of the most beautifully stated comments I’ve yet read on Marty’s blog. This is exactly what the “intellectual” can’t get. It’s hard to explain to most people, for that matter. If I’m ever in a position again where I’m trying to explain the basic difference between Scientology and just about everything else, I think I’ll just show them your post. It communicates, awesomely.


  130. They are called thought-grenades.

    They are little facts, tossed in to blow up pieces of the indoctrination and get people thinking again.

    I know: Blasphemy! Treason! Enemy-line!

    But thought-grenades, nonetheless.

  131. “Four score and seven years ago our fathers brought forth upon this continent a new nation, conceived in liberty and dedicated to the proposition that all men are created equal.

    Now we are engaged in a great civil war, testing whether that nation, or any nation so conceived and so dedicated, can long endure. We are met on a great battlefield of that war. We have come to dedicate a portion of that field as a final resting place for those who here gave their lives that that nation might live. It is altogether fitting and proper that we should do this.

    But in a larger sense, we cannot dedicate, we cannot consecrate, we cannot hallow this ground. The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it far above our poor power to add or detract.

    The world will little note, nor long remember, what we say here, but it can never forget what they did here. It is for us, the living, rather, to be dedicated here to the unfinished work which they who fought here, have thus far so nobly advanced. It is rather for us to be here dedicated to the great task remaining before us, that from these honored dead we take increased devotion to that cause for which they gave the last full measure of devotion; that we here highly resolve that these dead shall not have died in vain; that this nation, under God, shall have a new birth of freedom, and that government of the people, by the people, for the people, shall not perish from the earth.”

    -Abraham Lincoln

  132. This is in response to Allen’s mention of the 65 policy, KSW and in light of the material Maria has posted. (Allen, she posted this over on Geir’s site, so you’ve seen it.)

    I mentioned the Case Supervisor Series, #25, HOW TO GET RESULTS IN AN HGC, in an earlier thread. Today, studying a tape from Oct 27, 53, FIXED ATTENTION, DUPLICATION, HOW TO AUDIT CHILDREN, I came across a short bit on the idea of the ‘admin lines’, and their relation to what is important, auditing. Here it is.

    “I learn this lesson every once in a while when I don’t have
    an adequate receptionist. You’d be surprised, if you’re
    setting up an office or something of the sort, how an
    orderly office receptionist setup on preclears, and so on,
    materially speeds and fixes up your processing.

    “In the first place, the filling out of a form or two and
    the signing of a waiver or two of damages gets them into a
    certain mood. And if you have a printed or mimeographed
    form there, they’re supposed to sign it out – former history,
    and so on – they’re supposed to put their signature at the
    bottom of it, and you have a card for them to fill out with
    regard to an assessment, you see, that asked the very
    pertinent questions. We had these in the first Foundation,
    by the way, these cards. But it shouldn’t be the auditor
    that fills these out. The person ought to fill those out
    when they come in the office before the auditor ever sees
    them. And then they hand this to the auditor, or it is
    handed to the auditor by a receptionist.

    “You would be amazed of the fact that a piece of paper,
    which now contains data (has been handed over), breaks
    down the case. It just, “Well, the fellow knows all about
    it now,” or, “I wonder if I should have told him that on
    there?” And you’ll see that immediately – “I wonder if I
    should have told him about it?” – you’ll just see him on that
    because he’ll keep watching the piece of paper. Invariable
    reaction, he just starts watching the piece of paper and
    looking at you and looking a little bit nervous about the
    whole thing, and then starts explaining to you the items on
    the piece of paper.”

    The point of ‘admin lines’, the org board, registrars, Dirs of Processing, the works – to get a person ‘in session’. That is, ‘interested in own case and willing to talk to the auditor’, so that that person may release from the imposed barriers to his full potential. THAT’S IT. That’s all of it.

    Allen, KSW is about the exact same thing – a person ‘in session’ and gaining their own insights into their own truth. The Ten Points are ALL concerning the delivery of the Technology. LRH never ‘reversed’ his aim or the intention of the subject – it was, is and always will be about delivering effective results with the workable technology of Dianetics and Scientology.

    The rest is there to do that. Nothing else. When ‘in session’ does not occur in sufficient degree, and there are not the results, then Scientology Tech has not been practiced.

    With no results, the whole thing is as you have described Allen, a monumental waste of time, money and a ‘scam’. Worse, it is betrayal.

    Me personally, I’ve been ‘in session’, routinely and the results are exactly as hoped for, even way, way, way more. Ineffable really. I’ve seen the same on others when I practiced the exact technology.

    It’s true to me, there are NO ‘Failed Cases’. On the other hand, some guys are ‘hard to help’. Though, even they can be with Standard Tech.

  133. My take on the relationship between L Ron Hubbard and Thomas Paine et al:

    Thomas Paine and his friends did what they did because they were concerned about the spirituality and condition of man. They saw such things as the enslavement of one race just so another race could get ahead and they were painfully aware that the industrial revolution was bearing down on them and were concerned about how that would all play out. They thought that if man’s spiritual fortitude could not cope with a pastoral setting, what chance would it have when science and mechanization raced ahead of it which was starting to happen.

    So they got busy. Paine, as a thinker and writer did what he did best. He thought and wrote and tried to create countries built upon saner foundations and appealed to man’s innate wisdom. His friends used their skills too including Blake who wrote poetry and issued artwork along similar lines.

    They had some great successes but also fell foul of man’s lack of spiritual fortitude – as has been pointed out Paine was pilloried in the end though his work lives on.

    LRH echoed these sentiments many years later, especially how physical science has raced ahead of spiritual tech which indicates to me he read Paine et al.

    LRH got to work bridging that gap and developed a technology capable of making man fit to live with man of his own volition without resorting to punishment, torture or domination. And he accomplsihed his task.

    And here we are. We have LRH’s legacy and we have Paine’s. They are not the same thing but they are wholly consistent with each other.

    And now the kind of suppression Paine objected to so strongly has dominated the so called C of S and it seems to think it can usurp LRH’s tech. But it is badly mistaken.

  134. Tony,
    Soothe you speak.

    Golden Age of Tech FN Invalidation Reality Show:

    Supervisor, with a pained, blank look, says “It has to swing three times.”

    Student, frowning, replies, “That’s NOT what it says.”

    Supervisor, “Look up rhythm. Definition number 3.”

    Student, “Yeah, OK.” (does so)

    Supervisor, “So you have to have a pattern. Can’t establish a repeat pattern until the third swing, otherwise there’s nothing to compare it to.”

    Student, angry, “Where the hell’s this coming from? LRH didn’t ever state this!”

    Supervisor, suddenly straightening his back and hardening his eyes, “This is coming from RTC, STRAIGHT from THE CHAIRMAN OF THE BOARD! The Senior CS Int is enforcing this with an iron fist.”

    Student, goes off to re-study Tech Vols and E-meter books for several hours.

    Supervisor, “OK, so we’re OK on the three swings now?”

    Student, “I think you can establish a rhythm without three.”

    Supervisor, “You can’t call the FN though.”

    Student, “But you can HAVE an FN though.”

    Supervisor, “As long as it swings three times, though. RIGHT?”

    Student looks around at other students ahead of him on the checksheet and realizes they must have already agreed to this.

    Student, “Yeah, yeah, yeah, OK, OK, OK. Whatever. Three times. Three times.” Goes back to his seat with black Linus cloud around his head, thinking “Wow. Sabotage has occurred or else I’m just too stupid to get it. Whichever it is, neither one are fixable.” He pretends to agree in order to finish his course and not get sucked up into the Dark Vortex that was waiting to swallow him up.

    Infidelity and invalidation. What a duo.

  135. Humble Servant,

    I’m relatively new to this blog. At first, my viewpoint was 100% aligned with yours. I wondered why Marty let some of these natterers (like Stanfield, “O”, etc) post. But recently, I’ve been seeing how others here jump right in and post some very effective rebuttals. There are many examples just in this Paine sequence. Watching all this back & forth has changed my viewpoint. Frankly, I think it’s good that we have a forum where, if necessary, we can stand up to, and refute, the natterers. I do think they should be confronted and their attacks effectively challenged, though, and not handled with “kid gloves”, or propitiated just because they were victims of Miscavology. I for one have zero tolerance for anyone who for whatever justification has the goal of denigrating LRH and/or the tech. But probably, suppressing or eliminating their comm from this blog would be the weak way to respond, sort of like not-ising the Black Panther. Better to apply the First Amendment, allow “free speech” & just buck up and argue back strenuously. Hey, that’s what the Founders did! And many here are doing an excellent job of that. It makes us all stronger. IMHO, as always.


  136. Yeah, I agree with you. Everyone here, except the creator of the blog, are guests. Not cool for guests to insult the host, just because you have an opinion. Etiquette and manners grease the wheels of a civilized society. Who wants to go to a party with a turd in the punchbowl? Ugh! O Henry in the swimming pool?! Dead cats at weddings, etc.

    Actually, O didn’t even really attend the party. He did just drive by in his smoldering rattletrap and rolled his window down to let out some of his stench before disappearing in a cloud of his own exhaust.

  137. Marty,
    Just wanted to ack you for the references to these excellent books! Thanks.

  138. Freedom Fighter

    I’ve just started listening to this but I had to comment on something LRH just said in this lecture. He refers to a picture that was taken for the Auditor magazine that was billed as being a courseroom full of people training to be CL VIII that was, in fact, not a picture of those students. It was a bunch of Sea Org members posing as students. The actual CL VIII students were all downstairs studying like mad and couldn’t be desturbed.

    What struck me was his statement where he says he’d made a note to himself that he would have to call this out in the upcomming RJ 68 because “we don’t deal in deception”.

    Contrast this to all of the photo shoots I saw at Flag where people who weren’t on the particular service being promoted were gotten to pose for a photo shoot and the bussloads of people brought in from other orgs to attend the grand openings of the Idle Morgues to make it look as if the orgs are booming.

    The Church of Miscavology gleefully and with no remorse deals in deception and this serves as one more example.

  139. Allen,
    I’ve been studying a tape on Tone Scale volatility. I’m going to practice here. This is to your ‘thought grenades’.

    You arrogant, self-centered, twit. You somehow or other assume you sit on some high observation post, and see what others don’t and presume to ‘point the way’. You, one who is ‘enlightened’ and aware of the true machinations of L. Ron Hubbard here to free others to ‘reality’.

    Your conceit knows no limit. Your Sophistry no substance.


  140. Please throw those grenades in your own blog and natter board in with your 12,000 posts and exalted status. That’s where it belongs. You are just knowingly trolling here and calling it something different with: “That began in 1965. And L Ron Hubbard is the one who reversed it.” Most of us here don’t and will never agree with that illogic.

    I’m very truly sorry that the bad seems to overcome any good you experienced in your 16 years. I hope that you find your own way to move on up a little higher!

  141. Perhaps this is apropos at this time?


    They showed you the temple.
    They showed you the grave.
    And they told you that “You must behave.”

    They showed you the cross.
    They showed you the stone.
    And they told you that “You must atone.”

    They showed you your sins.
    They showed you your shame.
    And they told you that “Desire’s to blame.”

    They told you of Honor.
    They told you of Pride.
    And they told you to kill for the sake of their side.

    They told you of Evil.
    They told you of Good.
    And they’ve said what you can’t do, and they’ve said what you should.

    They told you of Love.
    They told you of Pain.
    And they showed they can hurt you again and again.

    You’ve lived all their lies.
    Too soon you’ve grown old.
    They’ve stolen your Heart.
    They’ve stolen your Soul.


  142. LOL…
    Better not derail this serious post by getting onto the french.
    It could really get fun.
    We love all french independents don’t we?

  143. BOOOOOOOOM! (thought grenade going off)
    Nope. Nothing changed.
    You may want to look at your own indoctrinated ideas then perhaps you will worry less about ours (indoctrinated or otherwise).
    I could care less what you think and certainly wouldn’t bother trying to change your viewpoint by lecturing at you. Why do you feel the need to do it to others?

  144. Thanks, Jim.

    There is a lot of value to being “in session”, and in an environment that is safe to be in that spiritually vulnerable state.

    But in 1965, it was not just KSW, Hubbard began to issue a lot of different policies and tech which reversed the democratic and expansive ideals that he earlier used to recruit people into Scientology, and began to control and exploit the vulnerabilities of Scientologists for his own gain.

    I have many many specifics – that this blog does not have the space for – which shows the reverse nature that Scientology took on from the mid-1960’s on.

    Hubbard actually created a 2nd Scientology – a reverse of the first one.

    Really. If Marty started his own natterboard, we could go to town, you and me. And I think that we all would gain from engaging in the ensuing debate.

    I am not seeking to get Scientologists to quit being Scientologists, or any other evil intention that has been assigned to me. I believe that I am exercising one of the original ideals that attracted me to Scientology in the first place, and which was canceled by L Ron Hubbard later on.

    If there is to be hope for Scientology, then it is the 1st Scientology which should be unleashed, without the reversed constraints that Hubbard built into the 2nd.

  145. WH,
    That list would be very interesting. LRH’s office at WHQ in La Quinta in the late ’70s was totally lined with hundreds of books on shelves along walls. I’m sure it was always a chore for the Messengers to keep clean and dust free daily – they were responsible for his office while the HU (Household Unit) handled his living spaces.

    He read very widely and sent me a duplicate set of series books on how to cook using a Microwave oven, which was very new in the early ’80s, when he was “off lines”. This was years before you could buy microwave popcorn at the store and there were these horror stories of old ladies drying their poodles in the microwave.

  146. Don’t get me wrong – your contribution to the blog of:
    “It was when I learned about rights and freedom from Paine and others that I realized that my eternity is mine – always was and always will be.” is totally priceless, but the trolling is totally diametrically the opposite.

  147. Found the quote by Alexis de Tocqueville in ‘Democracy in America’ chapter ‘Influence of Democracy on Religion:’ He is referring to the sects in Christianity, but still relevant, I think.

    ‘One of the most ordinary weaknesses of the human intellect is to seek to reconcile contrary principles, and to purchase peace at the expense of logic. Thus there have ever been, and will ever be, men who, after having submitted some portion of their religious belief to the principle of authority, will seek to exempt several other parts of their faith from it, and to keep their minds floating at random between liberty and obedience….’

  148. Thomas Paine was a visionary and a true humanitarian (and he didn’t even have to donate any money to become one!)

    I notice that Amazon has several Ebook versions of his works. This one: contains: The Age of Reason, The American Crisis, Common Sense, A Letter Addressed to the Abbe Raynal and The Rights of Man for only $1.16 and can be downloaded to your PC or Kindle. I’d call that amazing value and something that the ‘leaders’ of the CoS could learn from if they truly wanted to make Scientology available to the world.

    And while I’m here, I might just mention that Tom Paine was of course, British. 🙂


  149. Climbing a 9' High Board Fence

    And the book was dedicated to Diana Hubbard before being purged.

  150. Climbing a 9' High Board Fence

    LO, I’ve had the same thought.

  151. Allen,
    Unlike many on this board, I’ve read your views, and the arguments you’ve proffered, extensively. They have met similar ends each time – that is, they don’t hold water. They are sophisms, and some not up to that. It’s a good front, with nothing in the store.

    Shock- jock stuff. Russ Limbaugh of the Scn boards. You have yet to actually pinpoint a single cogent point in the sundry attempts. Allen, it’s a hobby-horse that runs in circles, smaller each time.

    Stuck on this horsey, you would benefit from a good solid, maybe physical, nudge to an earlier point in time to free up your attention and play a better game. There’s only so many points that can be scored on a bad player before the game is called for NO GAME. You need game. You don’t have it here. NO GAME Allen. It’s like beating up DM. It’s tantatmount to abusing the mentally/physically disabled.

  152. Allen,
    Make that Glenn Beck. Or Rush Beck, Glenn Limbaugh, or…

  153. There must have been something that happened in 1964 or 1963. A decision like: “The hell with Taxes and Goverments”

  154. What a great observation FF. Thanks for pointing that out.

    A perfect example of how the CoS has changed into the exact “deception” that LRH was trying to prevent. Can you imagine LRH’s reaction to the level of deception that Miscavige engages in every day?

  155. May I add a demo?

  156. Maria, you rock.

  157. It’s a two terminal universe — the basis of auditing

  158. If you really are a highly trained old-timer, you could possibly make a valuable contribution to Independent Scientology by making a detailed list of what you think should be included and excluded, with detailed explanations why. It sounds like you have a TON of data. Please share it so we can read and evaluate. Ultimately, “standard tech” is determined by results.

  159. Interesting shift or developement in time. You just got to love all those Anonymous leaks ;). I actually remember reading this before somewhere. 1968 was a turbulent year indeed for the founder.

  160. Allen wrote “But in 1965, it was not just KSW, …”

    Allen, KSW is clearly your hangup and Maria has just brilliantly shown Ron’s intentions for it. Which you continue to ignore.

    Policy and the vast bulk of Scientology is “for thinking with”, not for robotically and blindly worshipping and/or treating as “orders”. And if the current CoS and Sea Org were truly “thinking with policy”, they wouldn’t be allowing any policy (LRH or otherwise) to violate the Creeds or Codes of the Church, imho.

    Tell me, what’s more senior: an HCO PL or the “Creed of the Church” and the “Code of a Scientologist”? And if a conflict is discovered, whose job is it to modify, cancel or issue relevant Church policy?

    IMHO, Miscavige blew it.

    If a study of our third dynamic tech [HCO PLs and related lectures] is approached from the viewpoint that it is for use and when known, understood and used that it will deliver an expected result, then one has a proper framework for the study of it.

    If one thinks it is a series of orders, or just some random ideas, then one will not have the use of it.
    – LRH, “THIRD DYNAMIC TECH”, 11-Apr-1970

    Further, LRH laid out guidelines for modifying, cancelling and/or issuing Church policy. In Miscavige’s inexperienced and incompetent (and now destructive) style, he has only made the situation worse.

  161. Old Cuff,

    “The Enlightened One formulates a philosophy of life. After their departure, it is codified and ritualized by lesser beings into a rhetoric that can be sold for profit to the masses of implanted, degraded beings who do not want a philosophy — they want to be told what to do and think so they don’t have to be responsible.”

    Freakin’ brilliant!

    13 months out of the religion and I still have a hard time confronting the idea that the “noble” OT leaders I know fall into the above category.

    But they most certainly do!

    And making them wrong for it isn’t my main effort here. I’m just trying to come to grips with how much I, too, fell into the above category, for half my life.

    I felt wobbly when I first got out. I was so used to putting my eternity into the hands of somebody else.

    I felt totally alone and vulnerable. Exposed before the universe without my usual Scientology crutch. Panicky, almost. Afraid to live without big brother directing my daily existence.

    And that, more than anything, is what I believe to be the single biggest WHY for trained, veteran Scientologists remaining intentionally ignorant and loyal to the church.

    Personal responsibility for holding the copyright to one’s own eternity seems to be the biggest button in the universe.


  162. Thank you, Marty. A significant part of my coming to terms with the church was the knowledge I gained from studying Paine, Jefferson, Henry et al. I returned to the church after years of raising my family (and reading many authors other than LRH, and just doing a lot of living and looking) and I could not reconcile what I saw with my quest for truth. I thought about it for some time and realized that, not only would I be barred from OT Levels for my viewpoints, but even if I were allowed, I would not be able to make gains because I would have to compromise everything that I hold dear. I could not go on.

    This blog has helped to answer many questions that I thought I would never find the answers for. It has filled in many holes and helped me to as-is a lot of junk. I appreciate that it has not attampted to PR the situation within the church. As many others have shared, I have experienced the obliteration of many stable data, but by far the most difficult thing for me to confront in my journey has been some of the information about LRH. LRH was the stable data. It was easy to brush off what others did as contrary to Ron’s teachings, etc., but it turned out not to be so neat. I have come out the other side (or maybe still journeying) with a strong love of Ron for what he gave us and appreciate the lack of tolerance for LRH bashing. However, I still feel that it is important to be able to discuss his flaws as they relate to the church in order to fully as-is the group engram. Many of the seeds to the current church situation were growing back in the 70’s and, from what I have read, in the 60’s,as well. I don’t think the current scene with Miscaviage would have been possible had Scientologists been looking and thinking for themselves rather than allowing their judgement to be overridden by the belief that someone else knew more, was more OT, etc. so they should abandon responsibility and go on what the other person said. Extreme case in point: Hanna Whitmore allowing the young child to be put in chain locker because she felt Ron must know better. I would like to know what happened to create this culture. I don’t NEED to know because I am able to separate the man from his work, but I would like to know. I would like to understand. And if this is not the place for this discussion, I am fine with that.

  163. CatDaddy

    Yes, and LRH dedicated the book “Dianetics The Modern Science of Mental Health” to Will Durant. And I am pretty sure it was not a “clerical” or “transcriptionists” error.


  164. Jim,

    You have no idea… Or maybe you do… But very few people have no idea the enormous truth in that statement… OT8??? nah… Sorry…

  165. Thank you Marty.

    Thank you.

  166. Allen, those thought grenades look to be filled with your own by passed CHARGE.

    As to their being facts….well certainly they can your universe.

    Again revisit Nāgārjuna and approach the folks here from a position of emptiness and you may find you are more effective.

    Truth is always relative to viewpoint. Absolute truth requires the occupancy of all viewpoints.

  167. Publius,

    One of my favorite parts of LRH’s poem Hymn of Asia is as follows….

    Appoint Amongst you
    Some small few
    To tell about me lies
    And invent wi ked Things
    And spread out infamy
    Abroad and Within
    And to stand before
    our alters
    And insult and
    Lie and tell
    Evil rumors about us all.
    For all is Life
    to Buddha.
    All is Life.


  168. Jewel,
    You have great posts – but if you want to reply to John N’s post then click the “reply” button next to his name on his post. Makes the blog easier to read. 😉

  169. Wow! First Principle, You blow me away. I LOVE your take on Paine in a Scientology setting in the present time. How would you view Lincoln or how would you view LRH back in the days of Lincoln?
    Hmmm… Bouncing round a bit, I could see DM like Nero or like Commodus in the movie Gladiator…

  170. Tony DePhillips


  171. IS,
    Totally, and fully agree! Most of my expanded Grades were delivered by Merrill Mayo (Cl 12) on those cheap folding card tables and chairs in a typical rented apartment in Hemet in ’79. That furniture, cheap shag carpet and white walls along with those ugly steel lockable file cabinets was an interior decorator’s nightmare. The wins with standard Tech totally blew me away with persistent F/Ns interrupting occasionally and I would not trade that with any sessions in a multi million, posh, glitzy and completely Idle Org.

  172. Thomas Paine was a keen observer, but one point which should not be overlooked is the capacity to knowingly know. The human condition and the reactive mind are such that individuals may be lying to themselves and may be violating their personal integrity but be oblivious to the contradiction. Ser facs, justification, engrams, implants and the rest all come into play. As does simple ignorance, the inability to differentiate.

    The beauty of the tools at our disposal is in allowing change, in allowing improvement. To take an individual from less awareness to greater awareness. To increase the ability to observe and differentiate. To improve conditions.

    Noting flaws, inconsistencies and failures gets us nowhere, in and of itself. To note that a car sits in the driveway will not get you to San Francisco. You have to go out, get in the car, start it up and drive off according to known routes. The destination is the thing.

    So, yes, individuals may be hypocritical. Yes, individuals may lie to themselves and to others.

    But, the car still sits in the drive.

    And we have the key.


  173. martyrathbun09

    Man, I’d love to hear more from you here.

  174. martyrathbun09

    Thanks. I appreciate your concerns, a lot of that will be addressed in my book where there is room for laying down some context. I don’t go there in this forum, because out of context it would be not be fair. There is plenty of “bashing” going on across the net. And your reference to Whitfield is very appropriate on that score. I don’t give a lot of credit to her more dramatic stories. Context: demeanor and drama in her delivery of them, and the fact she tried to make a cool billion dollars off the church. Among other things.

  175. Yes that is why I posted it, I wonder what new recruits are told what that name is in the beginning of the book.

  176. martyrathbun09

    A lot of it is in the eye of the beholder. I had a pc mid-Grades read KSW. He never read an HCO PL in his life, never been connected to an org, and never new another Scientogist than me. A very competent, educated person. I asked, “so, what did that mean to you?” He replied, “if it ain’t broke, don’t try to fix it.” I said, “is that it? What about the lifetimes of agony if you even contemplate squirreling. His reply: “I guess he was being emphatic.”

  177. martyrathbun09

    You know, it would be nice if you did let something “speak for itself.” In fact, you’ve patched together a couple hundred words out of millions that were penned by the man in order to make sure that the facts did not speak for themselves. You are advocating, not informing.

  178. There are a few on the Internet that hammer and pound about overboarding and chain locker Incs.
    This is so EMBELLISHED and BLOWN out of PROPORTION.
    We who were on the Flagship Apollo in the 1970s never saw any such thing.
    I didn’t.
    All former Apollo crew I am in touch with didn’t.
    I will guess that Mike Rinder also saw no such thing.

    These incidents occurred in the 1968 era for barely 2 months and while they were unfortunate ad should not have occurred, they were by no means endemic or part of the culture of the Apollo with LRH.

  179. Tony DePhillips

    Hi Allen,
    I have liked a lot of what you have to say.
    What gets me is that you seem to create some ARC and then purposely unmock it. You then justify doing it for the reason that you want to wake people up. Which to me seems to be bullshit. I think you would reach more people if you maintained ARC and then introduce your ideal to them in such a way that it doesn’t snap the comm line. Otherwise you do come across as a sophisticated troll.

    You did the same thing on Geir’s site and I think you burned him out.

  180. martyrathbun09

    Ok, please do the following before we hear more from you: Since you have used the Jesuit mantel to vouch for your credibility, please comment on Paine’s Age of Reason (which you claim to also grasp and agree with) take on the Bible the Jesuits hold to be the Gospel. Then, ask yourself why the people here (whom you are so fond of belittling as morons) don’t respond by tearing your background to pieces based on your education, and your evident hypocrisy.

  181. Tony DePhillips

    I can see that you have been a contestant on that show. What kind of prize did you win??

  182. Did you know Mc Master ?

  183. Allen,

    I totally agree with Tony’s description of you above. You’re Mr. Hot and Cold. A trickster. A coyote. In love with your own gotcha! I read you on ESMB all the time. I see you coveting attention. Groveling for admiration. You’re smart. And crafty. Pretending innocence. And then tossing pipe bombs into the crowd.

    Underneath it all, you’re probably in great pain. But after all this time, after listening to you go on and on and on, I could give a shit.

    Just Me

  184. martyrathbun09

    Ouch – that comes from one of the most tolerant and understanding people I have had the pleasure of knowing.

  185. Nicely put Michael.


  186. Marty — Couldnt agree with you more. But ole Just Me can sure string a sentence together that makes your hair stand on end. Now there’s someone you don’t want to piss off…. That one sizzled like hot spit on a frying pan.

  187. Freedom Fighter

    Thanks, Margaret, and you’re welcome.

    “Can you imagine LRH’s reaction to the level of deception that Miscavige engages in every day?”

    That thought did cross my mind as I was listening to the recording . . .

  188. I love being personally vilified by ideologues in a thread devoted to Thomas Paine.

    Such sweet irony.

  189. Cat Daddy
    I don’t mean to be antagonistic to you.
    I find myself being curious when I see your posts what is your purpose. You dont seem to have any “skin in the game” if that is the right idiom to use here. What motivates you?
    You have tried to answer that question with what I would call “found” answers.

    Lets say I spent a lot of time on some blog such as this, except it was relating to jewish people. Someone asks me why, since it apparently has no relation to me or my life. In response I Google “Judaism” and read about WWII, and I say to the person “because of the Nazis” or some such thing. But that was a found answer to more or less explain my actions.

    Maybe it’s just interesting to you? I dont know. That would be a acceptable answer I guess.

  190. Tony,
    Ha ha ha! Yeah, I won a No Expense Paid Trip Out the Door after finishing the Worthless Zombie Chant Rundown.

  191. Tony DePhillips

    Yawn…. snzzzzzzzzzz…..where is my cocoa?..snzzzzzzz, snzzzzzzz

  192. Tony DePhillips

    I like your insouciance.

  193. Tony DePhillips

    Great post IO!!
    Have you heard from Invictus? I heard he went to San Francisco.

  194. Mr Guest,
    I’m not really sure what you are saying here. Sorry…

  195. Karen, can you briefly describe what “occurred in the 1968 era for barely 2 months”? A lot of us would appreciate a chance to as-is this generality of hell aboard the ship. I mean it. It would help dead-agent the ones who spout plausible slander.

  196. Idle Org,
    My friend, you are getting through the tough bits. Well done. Remember to study and keep getting in session, keep moving. Live too!

  197. LOL. I remember having that same thought when I first read it (which I also did outside of Org).

  198. OTDT,
    Loved your post!
    In response to Boice, we all know the answer to “that” question.
    Hate wogs? Well, well…I wonder why?
    You should find a set of tapes entitled, “The State of Man Congress”, and have a listen.
    But of course, if you prevent auditing from occurring, by agreeing with it’s alteration or attack those that actually duplicate LRH, you are cutting your own throat. Tisk, tisk.

  199. No Name
    I was not there in 1968 and have no personal knowledge of the incidents in the Internet reports. I have corroborated data from those that did the original Class VIII course in 1968 that overboards occurred to a small handful in a period of less than 2 months
    To portray “Hell aboard the ship” is as false as it gets.
    My memories are of spectacular camraderie, a sense of being part of team, idlyllic times of high adventure, deep friendships, awesome communications with LRH and fun fun fun ~~ never a dull moment.
    Never would any of this ideal happiness and sense of triumphs (conquering a storm at sea though were barely sailors) ~~ never would these happy times ever occur again once we landed in Daytonna.
    I do believe that taking breaks from routine day to day grind is refreshing to the soul. LRH called it “reach and withdraw from the job”. A day off every 2 weeks was automatic. You merely told your senior on Wednesday evening that you would be gone Thursday.
    3 week leaves were a breeze. No hassle, you got your passport from the Port Captain and you left.
    If anyone did not want to be there, they were gone in 24/48 hours.
    Sea Org members thought about asking to leave the Sea Org very carefully, because once you asked, before you could turn around you WERE GONE.

  200. O,
    You seem to be an intelligent being with some strong opinions. Let me say that I respect your right to hold and communicate your opinions, but I would submit that men of reason know that hubris is their enemy. If you wish to enter into a reasoned discussion you should not begin your argument with condecension.

    In my own humble opinion, L Ron Hubbard has played a significant role in the evolution of man’s existential knowledge. If you look at the philosophical debate, over the nature of the universe and man, which has been ocurring for the past 2,500 years, you might condense it down to mind or spirit vs matter. In the 16th century, philosophers of the likes of Bacon, Hobbes and Descartes turned the tides toward materialism. Everything could be explained by the motion of bodies in space.

    L Ron Hubbard took a syncretic approach and applied the scientific method, which had been used to decode the nature of the atom, to the nature of the mind or spirit. The great philosophers of old accepted that spirit could be affected by matter but never bothered to explain how. With the development of Dianetics LRH had extablished the nexus between spirit and matter.

    In my opinion, his brilliance was in emphasizing function over structure and avoiding the philosophic black hole of defining God.
    In demonstrating the existence of mental image pictures stored in the mind, LRH provided a practical technology which could actually free man from the prision of the body and the material universe. The empirical data is available to all who would look.

    How anyone can say that L Ron Hubbard will never be considered an important 20th century philospher is beyond me. While I do admit that his work has been corrupted by some desperate and malevolent beings with a motive of control and profit, his true contibution will stand the test of time.

    I do not expect you to change your mind as to your personal experience, but I would hope that your reason may bring you to take another look from a different viewpoint and an expanded context.

  201. Your humble servant

    Karen #1 can probably give you a better reply, and what I will tell you is not detailed and is 2d hand, but at least it is something. Back in ’68, right after the first Class VIII course on the Apollo, a sea org missionaire stated that Ron had had Class VIII students that flunked their auditing tossed overboard into the Mediterranean. There was no suggestion that they objected to this or thought it was horrible. My distinct impression when hearing this at the time was that the missionaire was reporting upon a distinct training technique that Ron initiated for that particular group of Class VIII students only that was meant to bring the students up to present time time enough so that they would do their auditing correctly. I believe it was done safely when the ship was at open sea, in warm, calm waters. There was no suggestion that the practice was ever extended to anyone other than that initial group of Class VIII students. I’m sure Ron had no intention of anyone ever turning that brief practice of “overboarding” Class VIII students into a torture technique or punishment, as has reportedly been done at the Int Base and elsewhere. There are also still original “Salt VIIIs” around who could probably give you a first hand account.

  202. Soderqvist1: the book Science of Survival by L. Ron Hubbard was written in Havana Cuba 1951, and it was dedicated to his first daughter Alexis Valerie Hubbard born 1950-03-08

    Soderqvist1: its Acknowledgment to fifty thousand years of thinking men including Thomas Paine can be found on CoS home site

    Soderqvist1: its seems to me that there is a second generation Scientology which is hard to reconcile with the first generation Scientology as far as I can see in Jeff Hawkins essay; “give him a too gruesome’” originated by L. Ron Hubbard 1968.

    Soderqvist1: I will leave now so I can buy Thomas Paine’s books in our biggest book shop; the Akademibokhandeln here in Stockholm.

    Best regards

  203. I have yet to see anyone blast those “found”answers away. What I try to do is pointing out that the church was just picked as a vehicle for spreading Scientology and therefore can be disposed of quietly and without sorrow. Alsoo point out to older texts. I am looking forward to Marty’s Book as a sort of Historical reference from where I shall finnaly delve into the subject matter deeper. What I do not like is that events or people are forgotten or said to be irrelevant for the sake of harmony. Alsso the opposite irritates me. Dutch historici have “borrowed “500 years of Histori from the north of France. About 300 to 800 and claiming Charles the Grat build one of his stone! residencies in Nijmegen in the year 777.

    As for now the only thing that is near to my heart is to STOP the Abuses and to EXPOSE the criminal management and all those who help keep it in place like Kendrick Moxon and Ying Ling.

    We all choose our fights and I chose this one. It started for me when a girl I dated had been abused by members of the Church of Satan, and I do not mean that cartoonesk American one. She ended up with 50 personalities thank you very much. Somehow I found a link between Scientology and Crowley and than I learned about the Abuses going on in the CO$, the hypocricy, the criminality , the immorality. Maybe it is an outward manifestation of an inward personal battle but I will not have me get introverted on this one. There is a Org in Amsterdam , A Narconon in Zutphen and a CHHR in Rupchen here in the Netherlands and I am watching them.

    Do as Thou willst, Cat Daddy

  204. It was kept from you than. Karen do you remember Susan Meister or anybody here remember her ?

    “We who were on the Flagship Apollo in the 1970s never saw any such thing.
    I didn’t.
    All former Apollo crew I am in touch with didn’t.
    I will guess that Mike Rinder also saw no such thing.”

  205. Thank you. This is the kind of info that is very helpful to me and I am glad to hear that you have included it in your book.

  206. Thank you, Karen. I am so glad to hear that!

  207. Alex, Wow! I like that bit about truth: “Truth is always relative to viewpoint. Absolute truth requires the occupancy of all viewpoints”.
    Yours? LRH? Love to know where that came from.

  208. All of you who declared Independence this one is for you.

    “I love the man (and woman) that can smile in trouble, that can gather strength from distress, and grow brave by reflection. ‘Tis the business of little minds to shrink, but he whose heart is firm, and whose conscience approves his conduct, will pursue his principles unto death.”

    -Thomas Paine

  209. I see that the Church listed that as an answer to frequently asked questions. So people keep asking questions or rather demanding answers.

    “Acknowledgment is made to fifty thousand years of thinking men without whose speculations and observations the creation and construction of Dianetics would not have been possible. Credit in particular is due to: Anaxagoras, Thomas Paine, Aristotle, Thomas Jefferson, Socrates, René Descartes, Plato, James Clerk Maxwell, Euclid, Charcot, Lucretius, Herbert Spencer, Roger Bacon, William James, Francis Bacon, Sigmund Freud, Isaac Newton, van Leeuwenhoek, Cmdr Thompson (MC) USN, Voltaire, William A. White, Will Durant, Count Alfred Korzybski and my instructors in atomic and molecular phenomena, mathematics and the humanities at George Washington University and at Princeton.”

    That makes up for an impressive read. I like Acknowledgements.

  210. O wrote: “…given the MOUNTAINS of evidence that he was a confidence man …”

    O, anyone’s life can be painted in whatever way one wishes — good or bad. Even easier when the person is a prolific author or public speaker.

    It’s truly remarkable to me, as a well-studied person, that you’ve allowed this level of character manipulation to cause you to reach the conclusion that you have.

    My advice: start again. Take on the Buddhist’s “not know” attitude or Einstein’s “beginner’s mind”. Put all you’ve read and heard about Ron and Scientology on the backburner, and just study the subject, as it is, from the beginning.

    I think you’ll find that Ron’s words and actions, in context, become a lot clearer once you have done that. Good luck!

  211. Complete works of Tom free to download:

  212. Marty I stand corrected by Thomas paine

    “The word religion is a word of forced application when used with respect to the worship of God. The root of the word is the Latin verb ligo, to tie or bind. From ligo comes religo, to tie or bind over again, or make more fast–from religo comes substantive religio, which, with the addition of n makes the English substantive religion. The French use the word properly–when a woman enters a convent she is called a noviciat, that is, she is upon trial or probation. When she takes the oath, she called a religieuse, that is, she is tied or bound by that oath to the performance of it. We use the word in the same kind of sense when we say we will religiously perform the promise that we make.

    But the word, without referring to its etymology, has, in the manner it is used, no definitive meaning, because it does not designate what religion a man is of. There is the religion of the Chinese, of the Tartars, of the Bramins, of the Persians, of the Jews, of the Turks, etc.”

    – Thomas Paine

  213. “The circumstances of the world are continually changing, and the opinions of men change also; and as government is for the living, and not for the dead, it is the living only that has any right in it. That which may be thought right and found convenient in one age, may be thought wrong and found inconvenient in another. In such cases, who is to decide, the living, or the dead?”

    – Thomas Paine

  214. “The remark of the Emperor Julian, on the story of The Tree of Knowledge, is worth observing. “If,” said he, “there ever had been, or could be, a Tree of Knowledge, instead of God forbidding man to eat thereof, it would be that of which he would order him to eat the most.”

    – Thomas Paine

  215. I will say this: if nobody is free to practice scientology than that in itself is making everybody unfree.

  216. “That ideas should spread freely from one to another over the globe, for the moral and mutual instruction of man, and improvement of his condition, seems to have been peculiarly and benevolently designed by nature, when she made them, like fire, expansible over all space, without lessening their density at any point, and like the air in which we breathe, move, and have our physical being, incapable of confinement or exclusive appropriation. Inventions then cannot, in nature, be a subject of property.”

    – Thomas Paine

  217. Ah, the sweet, sweet smell of irony.

    Never mind Al, your fans still love ya. 😉


  218. Thank you Karen.

  219. I read through this whole thread of comments, and apparently somehow missed the (one?) comment where someone “vilified” you?

    The comments I saw seemed mostly thoughtful responses to your posts, so I am walking away scratching my head(again).

    Surely you don’t equate disagreement with vilification? Irony is cool, though.

    Anyway, if someone does vilify you, Valkov the Feral White Russian from Manchuria will surely not let it pass.

  220. martyrathbun09

    motivator hungry?

  221. Your Humble Servant.

    Yes, I corroborate the small amount of overboards were only done to a fraction of those that did the Class VIII course.

    In my quest to amass a rare collection of LRH photos, I debriefed a lot of those 1968 Class VIIIs who had taken pictures with their own cameras and who let me have copies of those images. I debriefed and got all the scoop of that time period.

  222. Cat Daddy:
    A person can choose any location to end their lives.
    It is routine for someone to check into a Las Vegas Hotel to put a gun to their head and end it.
    Las Vegas does not like the bad PR and often covers these incidents up.
    One of my clients is one of the Big Guns in Vegas and I speak
    from knowledge not speculation.
    No one attacks Las Vegas or the MGM Grand or Caesar’s palace because a death occurred on their property.

  223. Hmmm…I think its my thoughts….as influenced by LRH’s Axioms and Nagarjuna’s tetralemmas…if not I apologize to whomever I appropriated it from.

    It is one of my current conceptual tools for understanding “life, the universe, and everything.”

    A great aid in seeing others as “right” and thus worthy of love.


  224. ΘTater/GaryLerner

    Old Cuff – I’m gobsmacked! You’ve stated in a most succinct way.
    Thank you!

  225. Theo Sismanides

    Old Cuff, thank you, beautifully said!

    To have such a fresh viewpoint from Old Cuff on such a basic, basic thing and to be able to see the Binding Forces of this Universe and other basic things, is what makes my day.

    As I think that we are now more educated as Thetans. We have put together a lot of the puzzle pieces. Obviously not all, but many.

    Such posts prove it. Thank you Old cuff. I was also against this automaticity thing. This blog is NOT on Automatic guys! Can you see it? It’s been created daily! This is freedom. This is differentiation. The church has NO differentiation abilities or possibilities, thus no freedom. I think Thomas Paine could differentiate and not run on automaticities, thus he was more free as a thinker and as a man. The “Automaticity” people obviously wanted him to stop. I will have to read more on day from him, but I just wanted to say that this post by Old Cuff made me think how lucky and fortunate we are having now been a bit more educated on the subject of Theta and MEST.

  226. Theo Sismanides

    Still thinking on the above posting about the Mystery being the Bounding Force of this Universe. I discussed it with Olga, my wife, and understood it better. Yes indeed, Old Cuff, from not-iseness to alter-isness and finally to mystery, haha, I get it now. Much better.

    If pieces of truth are revealed to thetans then they as-is some of the mystery that exists around and that enslavers use to bind people together and make slave societies out of them. We are moving a bit higher Up and (maybe) a bit… OUT of that? Haha. I feel good.

  227. Allen: “vilified by ideologues ” … “Such sweet irony”

    Such sweet hypocrisy.

  228. Marty. what a terrific way to put it – “IF IT AIN’T BROKE, DON’T TRY TO FIX IT!”

    In the back of my mind I’ve always felt something like that trying to express itself about KSW, but never really brought it clearly to the fore front. This totally sums it up. Put it up in big marquee lights!


  229. O, it’s not that you come across as a real a-hole here, it’s that you come across as a Big Brother Knows Best Social Working Intellectual Elitist who feels he knows what others ought to feel and think on this or any subject.

    You have a right to your own evaluations of the world you see, but so do we. We just don’t agree with you, and many here have looked at this subject in a lot more depth than you have by your own admission.

    I think you are missing a lot by dismissing the folks here as being deluded in some way, but the greater loss is perhaps yours, not ours.

    In Transactional Analysis terms, I see you as playing the game of “Ain’t It Awful” (How some people can delude themselves so badly!) It’s a social game played to create a feeling of righteousness and self-satisfaction in it’s players, regardless of whether or not they are factually correct in their opinions. Kind a like the “wogs” vs. “clams” vs. “wogs” game. Some say, “pot/kettle”.

    If you don’t get the reference, get Eric Berne’s book “Games People Play” and dig into it for awhile.

    Fact is, you could be right about Hubbard, and at the same time, we could be too. It’s that kind of world.

    As one of those old-time wise-guys once said, “The unexamined life is not worth living”. First, examine yourself. “The mote in one’s own eye”, and all that.

  230. OTDT, I understand, but I have to say, NO! OTDT, Bad Dog!! or, perhaps, “OTDT, you really know how to win friends and influence people?”

    Let’s try to be social with people who don’t understand us or have other opinions. If O were an OSA troll, OK, but I really don’t see any evidence he is.

    His evaluation may seem outrageous to us, or ours to him, but….

    Geir would definitely have awarded you a Yellow Card. In fact, your post would have been modded on that forum.

    Here’s a song for us all:

  231. Cat Daddy,
    Thanks for the great quote. Thomas Paine was a man who personified courage and integrity. He was passionate in his defense of liberty to the very end. It was said that he was the English Voltaire. We who enjoy the fruits of liberty owe a great debt of gratitude to such men. The Stoic philosophy of nourishing man’s reason with wisdom, his spirit with courage and his appetite with temperence, was surely exemplified in this man’s life.

  232. Let’s see now, hmmm -“grenade” an explosive device that destroys…. That’s your tool of choice? Not observation, reason or persuasion, but an explosive device that destroys…..

    I got a great idea, Al – strap some to your own mind and pull the pin. It’s just a matter of time, isn’t it? Until your own organism turns on itself anyway?

    Here’s a “thought grenade” question for you – you’re on DM’s payroll, right? Sure seems like it sometimes….. After all, wouldn’t DM be the first to say he is just carrying on Hubbard’s work as Hubbard intended, just as you like to say? Or are youdoing his work”pro bono”?

    Tony De, I don’t think it worked on Geir’s forum any more than it works here. Although Geir was clearly Al’s target. Never saw anyone want to prove another wrong more than Al did Geir.

    Al embodies a manifestation of the apparent cycle of action – the “destroy” part of it. Thus whether any one vilifies him or not, he takes great pride in being vile and garnering a lot of attention that way.

    Always hungry, like the Clay Pot Boy of the Russian story. In other words, 99% of the time, Al only wastes. He is a walking talking unmotivated act, apparently. But that seems to be his chosen role and he insists on it by refusing to change.

  233. Here is “Al’s Theme” as posted on Geir’s forum. It seemed to fit, especially as Al is purportedly a “Past Life Clear” who has some memory of being with LRH in Phoenix in the mid-1950s.

  234. Ditto on Jewel.

  235. Some quotes from Thomas Paine:

    “Suspicion is the companion of mean souls, and the bane of all good society. ”

    “He that would make his own liberty secure, must guard even his enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes a precedent that will reach to himself. ”

    “The world is my country, all mankind are my brethren, and to do good is my religion.”

    “I do not choose to be a common man,
    It is my right to be uncommon … if I can,
    I seek opportunity … not security.
    I do not wish to be a kept citizen.
    Humbled and dulled by having the
    State look after me.
    I want to take the calculated risk;
    To dream and to build.
    To fail and to succeed.
    I refuse to barter incentive for a dole;
    I prefer the challenges of life
    To the guaranteed existence;
    The thrill of fulfillment
    To the stale calm of Utopia.
    I will not trade freedom for beneficence
    Nor my dignity for a handout
    I will never cower before any master
    Nor bend to any threat.
    It is my heritage to stand erect.
    Proud and unafraid;
    To think and act for myself,
    To enjoy the benefit of my creations
    And to face the world boldly and say:
    This, with God’s help, I have done.”

    Allen: Your statement makes no sense at all. For any readers on this blog, look up the meaning of the word “idealogue” and you’ll see what I mean by that. But then, that wasn’t the point was it?

    I have read countless posts by you on the Scn Forum. Mean spirited, highly embellished, hasty generalizations, and an attitude towards others beliefs that is diametrically opposed to the principles of freedom and reason espoused by Thomas Paine.

    I called it on the Scn Forum, and I am calling it again on this blog: it’s all drive by propaganda, intended to salt this blog with your highly offensive and prejudiced speculations and conclusions. You have been given hundreds of hours of additional data, facts, reasoned argument on the Scn Forum, from some of the most intelligent people I have ever encountered in my life. You do not accept any of it for it does not support your propaganda technique, which is argument by repetition. Repeat a thing often enough and it sticks in people’s minds.

    Marty, it’s cool that you gave him an opportunity to speak his mind, but IMO he has ZERO interest in discussion or learning anything at all, only interest in seeding your blog with his pet propaganda phrases and making derisive comments about the character, intelligence and beliefs of Scientologists. And that includes being innocently “offended” when he gets smacked down. That’s his modus operandi — slam people, slime people and then act wounded that he would be “treated so badly.”

    Read with heavy sarcasm, dripping with false sympathy: Poor, poor little Allen, all he was trying to do was help the moronically simple people on this blog…

    He’s been going on and on and on about how you deny his “freedom of speech” by not letting him post. He is like the restaurant patron who wants to harass the shit out of everyone else in the restaurant and claim he’s being denied his rights when the restaurant owner shows him the door. It’s your blog Marty, and you have every right to create it as you see fit. There are plenty of blogs and forums around with rants and raves from the likes of Allen that anyone can go read. I like your blog, I like that I don’t have to deal with a bunch of ranting, angry people who prefer bashing to discussing.

    And if you’d like to edit my response, that’s quite alright with me.

  236. You might be right. I probably got carried away with the absurdity of entertaining myself. I’ll accept the yellow card.

    I wasn’t trying to be mean, though. If I was I would have written something much worse. I actually don’t even mind his viewpoint and can see why he wrote it. It’s just that when the insults start flying I figure the gloves are off.

    My apologies to the O for having him eat a dog poop.

  237. Search the Web on


    Marty, you’re damned if you don’t publish Allen’s comments. You’re damned if you do.

    If you don’t publish them, then you are abrogating “free speech” and denying “the truth” (as Allen or Alanzo propagandizes it).

    If you do publish them, then you are deliberately posting provocative statements by him as a “demonstration” and to “whip up” your “followers” into a “Hail Marty” frenzy.

    If you don’t censor the responses of the readers on this blog, then you are permitting “gang bang blogging.”

    If you do censor the responses of the readers on this blog, then you are abrogating “free speech.”

    I’m sure you know this, but there is an entire thread with Allen or Alanzo as he is known on the ex Scn forum devoted to discussing all of this — complete with gang bang blogging, and hysterical claims that you are fostering hate, and threats of violence on this blog.

    Utterly hypocritical given the hatred, hostility, gang banging attitude on that forum. Just try posting that you enjoyed your auditing over there – better wear a full face helmet and armor becuase the hits will come in thick and heavy and downright vicious at times.


  238. It really was funny, dude! And maybe if he’s been a lurker for awhile he took it in stride? But I’ve seen sincere people wanting to dialog get blown off Geir’s forum, which might just confirm for them that we’re crazy deluded fanatics who make those who have a different take on things, eat poop. Bwa-ha-ha-ha-ha! You know, some people can’t take a joke….ROTFL

  239. Allen is a legend in his own mind. If he can’t actually get himself vilified, he must still claim he has been. It’s cause he’s so vile vile at times. Drives him nuts when people refuse to vilify him in spite of the big “Vilify Me I’m Vile!” sign he wears.

  240. Got a heads-up from Allen about this thread. Popped over to offer one simple piece of fact:

    Nope; No burning out due to Allen. Allen showed me Tony’s response in hopes that he did achieve some kind of an effect on me. I am happy to disappoint him.

    Those who follow my new blog ( see what I am all about these days; Formalizing a bridge between science and spirituality. And then there is art, writing, programming and having loads of fun 🙂

    Probably doing the Ls or the old OT levels next.

  241. Methinks y’all protest too much.

  242. I’m not trying to use a Jesuit background as my source of credibility, just a perspective, something that might have some parallels. Furthermore, blogs are poor places for establishing credibility. It’s difficult to make short refutations/arguments without sounding as though you’re flaming (okay, sometimes the temptation is irresistible). And while I take exception to being characterized as a hypocrite (after all, I REJECTED what was the hypocrisy of the Catholic Church and its representatives), I understand that this might not be the forum for my critique. Sorry if I caused irritation.

  243. Pot, meet kettle.

  244. But what will you do when all are flat on your shtick, accept you as you are, and start giving you hugz? Will your work be done then, even if they happily remain scientologists and friends of LRH?

  245. “Search the web etc”,

    You are half right about the ESMB board. On some threads it has all the viciousness you observed, but it also has threads and posts by unabashedly pro-tech folks, who hold their positions and blithely go ahead and post their wins and pro-tech viewpoints, undeterred by the”entheta” thrown their way by the antis.

    There are cliques there, and often they segregate themselves by thread. The antis preach to their choirs, and the others, to theirs. There are some good discussions, stories, and information to be found there, but yes, wear your hipboots wading through to it.

    Allen is an old-timer there and is somewhat teasingly accepted there as being a bit of a cry-baby at times, and a bit off-the-wall, but the keynote of ESMB is that all are accepted there. No-one is expected to change, or to conform to any doctrinaire opinions.

    OSA and such trolls are quickly identified and replied to, but have some long threads there too. In fact there are rules, but the chief rule is something like all are accepted there as they would be in a comfortable bar where “everybody knows your name” and they behave socially, no matter the vehemence of their opinions.

    Some may state opinions that are totally repugnant to you, but they will be polite to you generally speaking. If you can’t hold your position in the face of strong disagreement from some, it’s not the place for you. If you post some doctrinaire opinion, boy, watch out!
    There are a lot of very intelligent people there, and many of them have a lot of scientology experience under their belts, too.

  246. Al, here are a couple of links to information about Transactional Analysis –

    It’s a good idea to read Berne’s “Games People Play”.

    WAHM is a very common “life game”. It is all about setting up self-fulfilling prophecy situations. The payoff is one gets abused in some way and can then denounce the “abusers” while gathering sympathy and self-righteousness for himself. Ie, justify himself in some way.

    An example might be going on a Muslim blog and invalidating and denouncing Mohammed the Prophet and Islam itself in various ways, most of them inaccurate to start with. One then gets thoroughly flamed by the Muslims on the site. He then goes back to the anti-Muslim blog he usually hangs out in, and talks about how terribly brainwashed those Muslims are, and how they mistreated him when all he did was try to tell them the truth!

    He then asks, WAHM!? (WHY does this ALWAYS HAPPEN to ME!?) and gets a bunch of agreement and some sympathy from his anti-Muslim cronies. Of course he set it all up himself from the start – a self-fulfilling prophecy.

    They then engage on a round of Ain’t It Awful (another “life game” discovered in TA), talking about how deluded those Muslims, Raelians, Buddhists, Rastafarians etc are),and sagely declare that it takes some longer to “wake up” than others, and congratulate themselves on their “awakeness” as compared to all those inferior others, thus making each other feel good and righteous and self-satisfied – “We’re OK, they’re Not-OK!”

    Know anyone who plays such games?

    Transactional Analysis. Interesting reading from Eric Berne.

  247. Wayne Froemke (AKA "Safe")

    “All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind and monopolize power and profit.” – Thomas Paine

    I recommend this issue of the Truth Seeker Journal which is dedicated to Thomas Paine …

    Click to access Truth%20Seeker%20Vol.%20135,%202009%20-%20The%20Resurrection%20of%20Thomas%20Paine.pdf

    One can download a pdf and audio version of Thomas Paine’s “The Age of Reason” in a torrent file here …–Thomas-Paine-1796-Ebook%2Baudiobook-h33t–WaRlOrD

  248. To Mr Michael Rinder,
    Thank you for what you have done with BBC Panorama.
    I watched the CNN show on History of Violence with Marty and will be searching YouTube for Panorama.
    I would like to invite BBC Panorama to Mexico where they can interview ex Sea org of Mexico for unbelievable stories. These Ex Sea Org are Emailing me with their stories.

    The evil CULT of DM has been accused of human trafficking.
    Below is a list of illegal aliens from Latin American countries recruited for the Sea Org. They are poor people from Many Countries like Chile, Argentine, Guatamela and Brazil to name a few.
    This is not known by the Mexican Government but is known by those who used to work for Sea Org.
    They have no human rights.
    They work at least 12 hrs straight since 8:45am cleaning their office, until 10pm if they are working on a Class V org, if they work at a CLO (Continental Liason Office) such a Sea Org Base or Building, they work until 11:30pm or 12:00am or if is demanded by a senior, extra for filling some special work to be done on time, when translations have place at Latam I saw no sleeping at all straight 4xdays and 5 nights. They suffer sleep deprivation. These Sea Org work until nose bleeding, fainting, and falling asleep in their chairs some fall asleep[ almost standing up.
    They pay no wage or benefits. (usually is promised to be paid $50 each week to every sea org member, but not all the time they are being paid, and that includes all the work or labor hours they work every day.

    They are used as slaves.
    They do not pay them salaries or social security.

    The name of this Sea Org is CLO LATAM (Continental Liason Office for Latin America.

    It is one of the Sea Org “secrets” so that they can save in the bank huge amounts of money on slave labor
    and give Tom Cruise $400,000 parties on Freewinds.
    This list in 5 years old but it shows the name and country they sign for Sea Org for Slave Labor.
    This is what they do even now because it is how Sea Org Latam get their recruits.

    Liana Tranoni, italiana ilegal
    Fabian Mora, costa ricense ilegal
    Graciela Lagares, Argentina ilegal
    Nancy Sambrano Venezolana ilegal
    Oliver Martínez venezolano ilegal
    Patricia Nuñez venezolana ilegal
    Rafael Salinas Brasileño ilegal
    Leonardo Beníjez aregentino ilegal
    Karla Morao venezolana ilegal
    Galith Mean venezolana ilegal
    Derek Faust gringo ilegal
    Antonio Cárdenas argentino ilegal
    Jefferson Serafin brasileño ilegal
    Mariano Maradona argentino ilegal
    Julio García venezolanoilegal
    Lorena Azoya argentina ilegal
    Joel Maldonado venezolan ilegal
    Berioska Santander venezolana ilegal
    Jorge Figueroa argentino ilegal
    Aida Alvarez Puertoriqueña ilegal
    Juan Carlos Alvarez venezolano ilegal
    Erik Graterol venezolano ilegal
    Gabriel Graterol venezolano ilegal
    Maryori de Souza venezolana ilegal
    Olivia Berkesi húngara ilegal
    Agustín Paparoni venezolano ilegal
    Elsi Paparoni venezolana loca ilegal
    Miguel Briseño venezolano ilegal
    Kathia Briseño venezolana ilegal
    Mariano Maradona argentino ilegal
    Neri Ibarra venezolana ilegal
    Maria Eugenia Sanabria venez. ilegal
    Rafael Sanabria venezolano ilegal
    Natalia Agu argentina ilegal
    Gabriel Destefani argentino ilegal
    Mariano Pedersoli italiano ilegal
    Norma Goyeneche argentina ilegal

  249. Thank you for what you have done with BBC Panorama.
    I watched the CNN show on History of Violence with Marty and will be searching YouTube for Panorama.

    Thompsons Solicitors

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