C of S launches torpedoes at Health Care legislation

The Church of Scientology’s “social reform” arm CCHR  is out full force executing DM’s far right wing political agenda.  DM is working sub rosa to undermine President Obama’s efforts to pass health care legislation that will take the nation closer to universal coverage. See the proof below in the form of communications of Bruce Wiseman and Michael Duff.

In addition to corroborating my assertion that DM has turned the Church toward support of fascist politics, this campaign warrants two other observations:

a)  The Church’s justification that the bill contains psychiatric funding is specious. I have handled on my lonesome more than one person the Church has bilked for thousands upon thousands of dollars and dumped when they considered them “illegal” for thoughts they harbored or for having seen a Mental Health professional sometime in their pasts. Now, it is fine and dandy for the church of Scientology to be “against” psychiatry, psychology and psychotherapy, if and ONLY if it takes responsibility for those who turn to those practices in time of travail. They clearly will not since they have proven they are not even up to handling a person with a SINGLE thought that doesn’t pass muster with them. They are not about to take responsibility for the millions in need of help.  So, here is another present time continuous overt of magnitude the church is committing on a daily basis that is making the world MORE insane and unsafe. The church’s regard for the workability of Scientology and its regard for people in need of help could not go much lower in my estimation.

b) Am I imagining it, or did Tommy Davis swear to the press in response to Paul Haggis’ letter of resignation that the church doesn’t get involved in political issues? Well, I don’t know how more involved it can get in politics than raising donations to fund the sabotage of the President of the United States’ attempt to provide American’s with health care.

Duff and Wiseman are below.

From: Michael Duff <duff8008@gmail.com>
Date: November 20, 2009 5:03:16 AM EST
To: “Michael Duff (E-mail)” <duffmail@sbcglobal.net>
Subject: Fwd: Update

Hi guys!

Here’s an important update from Bruce Wiseman.  And when Bruce says it’s time to act – it’s time to act!  Please take a minute or two to read below and fax the senators listed.  Call too, but faxing is key.

And CCHR needs about $3500 in donos to get peeps out East to help stop this legislation (I pasted his earlier email below this one if you didn’t see it before) so flow there too if you can.


From: Bruce Wiseman
Sent: Friday, November 20, 2009 1:10 AM
Subject: Update

First, thank you all for the tremendous out flow to both Congress and CCHR Int following yesterday’s email on the Health Care Bill.  It’s really appreciated! (And if you intended to send some bread, but haven’t had a chance yet, please do. 323-467-4242).

Okay, here’s an update and a final run at this vote. (In case you missed yesterday’s email, I have attached it). This is for you hard core Freedom Fighters.

1-   They changed the vote from Friday to Saturday. So we have two days. Most recent media says Saturday around 2PM, but it is not pinned down.
2-   Some of you have responded saying the phone lines were busy and / or message machines full (which is very likely a plus point). But to get your comm across, you can fax, which is MUCH BETTER than email.
3-   After yesterday’s quantity, we are now refining for quality – targeting key Senators.
The key “swing” votes on this are going to be democrats who are fiscally conservative and / or are up for re election in 2010.
These have been kindly listed below by supporter Jim Mayer. Please read his intro comments and ACT. Call or fax.
Yes, it may take a few minutes, but this is one of those times that we have to step up to the plate.

Here is Jim’s communication. He lists 15 Senators. Ideal scene would be comm to all. But if you were going to pick a few, the top three, it would be Blanche Lincoln (#1), Ben Nelson (#2), Mary Landrieu.

Rock and Roll!!

The names listed below are Democrats up for reelection in 2010 or from conservative states.
Send to these people only and send faxes and phone calls to each tomorrow and Saturday.

Senator Evan Bayh (IN)
Chief of Staff: Thomas Sugar (thomas_sugar@bayh.senate.gov)
Washington, DC (202) 224-5623 / (202) 228-1377 fax

Senator Michael Bennet (CO)
Chief of Staff: Jeff Lane (jeffrey_lane@bennet.senate.gov)
Washington, DC (202) 224-5852 / (202) 228-5036 fax

Senator Joe Lieberman (CT)
Chief of Staff: Clarine Riddle (clarine_riddle@lieberman.senate.gov)
Washington, DC (202) 224-4041 / (202) 224-9750 fax

Senator Bill Nelson (NE)
Chief of Staff: Tim Becker (timothy_becker@bennelson.senate.gov)
Washington, DC (202) 224-6551 / (202) 228-0012 fax

Senator Blanche Lincoln (AR)
Chief of Staff: Elizabeth Burks (elizabeth_burks@lincoln.senate.gov)
Washington, DC (202) 224-4843 / (202) 228-1371 fax

Senator Mary Landrieu (LA)
Chief of Staff: Jane Campbell (jane_campbell@landrieu.senate.gov)
Washington, DC (202) 224-5824 / (202) 224-9735 fax

Senator Mark Pryor (AR)
Chief of Staff: Bob Russell (robert_russell@pryor.senate.gov)
Washington, DC (202) 224-2353 / (202) 228-0908 fax

Senator Mark Warner (VA)
Chief of Staff: Luke Albee (luke_albee@warner.senate.gov)
Washington, DC (202) 224-2023 / (202) 224-6295 fax

Senator Mark Begich (AK)
Chief of Staff: David Ramseur (david_ramseur@begich.senate.gov)
Washington, DC (202) 224-3004 / (202) 224-2354 fax

Senator Robert Byrd (WV)
Chief of Staff: Barbara Videnieks (barbara_videnieks@byrd.senate.gov)
Washington, DC (202) 224-3954 / (202) 228-0002 fax

Senator Thomas Carper (DE)
Chief of Staff: Jim Reilly (james_reilly@carper.senate.gov)
Washington, DC (202) 224-2441 / (202) 228-2190 fax

Senator Jim Webb (VA)
Chief of Staff: Paul Reagan (paul_reagan@webb.senate.gov)
Washington, DC (202) 224-4024 / 202-228-6363 fax

Senator Jon Tester (MT)
Chief of Staff (Deputy): Mary Walsh (mary_walsh@tester.senate.gov)
Washington, DC (202) 224-2644

Here’s Bruce’s email from a day or so ago:
I am writing to ask that you do two extremely important things.

1-   Many of you know that there is a Health Care bill rolling through Congress, which contains several Orwellian mental health provisions which CCHR Int has detailed in earlier emails.

The bill has passed the House and is now in the Senate. A crucial vote is scheduled on the Senate’s version on Friday that will determine the course of this legislation. It is a procedural vote, that is a vote “to proceed” -meaning that if 60 Senators vote, ”Yes,” the bill will proceed. But without 60 votes, the bill cannot proceed.

We do not want it to proceed. We don’t want it proceed because it is full of psych programs.

Call your Senators TODAY. Really. Today. Here’s the link to find your Senators.


Click the link. Find your Senators. Call them TODAY (you have two) and tell them to vote NO on the motion to proceed on the health care bill.

This is important. Don’t delay. Do it now.

2-   Call CCHR Int 323-467-4242. Ask for Tulia or Samantha and cough up a little bread – $50, $100, $200, $500 to help us with the $3500  we need to fight this thing. Give us a hand with this.

It’s important.

Thanks very much!


Bruce Wiseman
President CCHR US



111 responses to “C of S launches torpedoes at Health Care legislation

  1. This intrusion into politics boggles the mind. As to the ‘reasons’ expressed, i.e. the fear of psychiatry under a ‘socialized’ system, all I can offer is the experience in Canada. We have socialized medicine. Aside from the fact that every Canadian is covered medically and there is no financial disaster or crunch of you break a leg, have a baby, get a tumor removed, have major surgery or fall off a turnip truck, there is also a continuing cry from the ‘mental health’ contigent that they are strapped and not supported.

    My point, psychiatry doesn’t fly and it’s avoided in droves. Heck, even their marketing these days on ‘anti-depressents’ acknowledges that two-thirds of people on them don’t improve (and if you just take another drug it might get better, might not as you may just off yourself, but that’s another topic).

    The upshot is, rather than violate the express LRH policy on Politics, Freedom From, and thus implicate the IRS 501 (c) status in complete contradiction to the clear estate planning of LRH as well, to attack this workable medical system improvement , the reliable bogey DM’s played, is not the spectre he pushes.

    The spectre is the absence of a workable technology and broadscale planning and responsibility for the area. THAT was LRH’s project and view.

    I’m stunned that this megalomaniac whose claim to fame is winning the war with the IRS, is himself unmocking the win. Then again…right, of course he is. Where are the tax lawyers in CST that were put in place to keep LRH’s planning?

  2. Marty,

    Perhaps I am being naive but for clarification could you lay out how this would come down the command line?

    Perhaps I have been and am still being naive but I would have thought this was a Bruce Wiseman generated agenda. It seems by your post that he is forwarding an agenda he has been “encouraged” to forward.

    How does this come to pass?

  3. Marty, Regarding CCHR stopping health care, I think they’re targeting the mental health aspects specifically, which is what they do and I agree with them.

    Regarding universal health care, here’s a couple videos which helped me come to a decision. I don’t intend to debate anyone as that goes nowhere usually, just want to put out my opinion:

    Also a couple quotes from CFR member D. Rockafeller. Obama’s cabinet is staffed with an unprecedented # of CFR members, it’s basically the whole cabinet:

    “For more than a century ideological extremists at either end of the political spectrum have seized upon well-publicized incidents such as my encounter with Castro to attack the Rockefeller family for the inordinate influence they claim we wield over American political and economic institutions. Some even believe we are part of a secret cabal working against the best interests of the United States, characterizing my family and me as ‘internationalists’ and of conspiring with others around the world to build a more integrated global political and economic structure – one world, if you will. If that’s the charge, I stand guilty, and I am proud of it.” -David Rockefeller, from his own book, Memoirs.

    ” “We are grateful to the Washington Post, the New York Times, Time magazine and other great publications whose directors have attended our meetings and respected the promises of discretion for almost forty years. It would have been impossible for us to develop our plan for the world if we had been subject to the bright lights of publicity during those years. But, the world is now more sophisticated and prepared to march towards a world-government. The supranational sovereignty
    of an intellectual elite and world bankers is surely preferable to the National auto determination practiced in past centuries”–David Rockefeller in an address to a Trilateral Commission (CFR and trilateralists are one and the same basically, with lots of cross membership) meeting in June of 1991

  4. The logic in Bruce Wiseman’s head: This one tree is rotten, therefore, burn down the entire forest.

  5. This is getting crazier and crazier. The fact that DM was dramatizing fascist political side was out of the question already. Has he manifested any dislike of black or jewish people yet?

  6. NoPoliticsPlease

    You make a good point about CCHR (and by association, Scientology) involving itself in politics and how this contradicts what Tommy Davis says.

    However, no need to favor Obama or venture into politics yourself. This is footbulleting.

    There are many reasons why the Health care bill is absurd, the least of which has to do with psychiatry. Any government involvement, with so much spending of money that will need to be printed and/or borrowed is a losing proposition. Bills like this will only serve to destroy what’s left of the economy and the US dollar over the long term.

    Just because there is a need for something (universal healthcare), doesn’t mean there is an entitlement to resources. This is socialist thinking and it is flawed.

    Again, this is why it’s best to not “take sides” with a political party or discuss politics in general.

  7. Marty I’d begun to see the fact that Bruce Wiseman had thrown his lot in with the neo-con lunatic fringe and this is just more evidence.

    This also applies to the many political “OLs” that continually harangue the public. The same can be said about the Jensens and some other WISE members who I wouldn’t doubt are also card carrying members of AEI a neo-con front group.

    I believe the GO I forwarded to you pretty much covers who these people are and what their mind set is.

    Another thing is I find Miscavige to be a complete hypocrite on the “Illegal PC” issue when you consider the fact that one of his biggest contributors (high profile name deleted for privacy considerations) is per the policy an illegal PC.

    Also I know that when I audited at AO in the 80’s we had PCs and Pre OTs who had highly classified clearances or GSA ratings, indicating past or current affiliations to intel or spy agencies that were completely ignored even when discovered later.

    Regarding, former institutional cases, the mountebank in vogue was to turn him or her over to a field group or auditor to receive a “sec check” while they were “petitioning”, while simultaneously milking them for “donations” and feeding them the idea the more they “contributed” the more likely their “petition” would be “approved”.

    On the other hand there were PCs who were told they were illegal because they were prescribed a psychiatric drug once or because they had some form of psychological counseling like they saw a guidance counsellor in High School!

    Personally, I thought it was politically motivated because it was usually because the was upset or had been mishandled in auditing that they suddenly became “illegal”.

    In other words the policy was arbitrary applied to the person if he or she caused trouble or turned out to be a “dog case”.

  8. Marty,

    You are absolutely right! Tommy Davis did say that CoS doesn’t involve in political issue. Tommy always lies right throw his teeth.

    First of all, how odd it is that Bruce Wiseman is trying to fight against psychs, but him and his wife agreed with DM’s order of disconnection from their own daughter Kendra when she decided she didn’t want to be part of SO!


    What kind of “freedom fighter” parents would do such a thing and put their own kid second and DM first?

    Secondly, Micheal Duff, his wife and daughter (Paris) are DM and Tom Cruise’s little poppets and well taken care of by TC and DM. They are good people but are well controlled and brainwashed by TC and DM.

  9. If I had any doubts about the integrity, compassion and just plain good sense of Marty — the paragraph a) has confirmed that Marty is indeed the real deal.

    I personally know at least 4 people after years and years as faithful scn all OT VII or VIIIs, who were summarily escorted off the base or just told not to come back. Due to ancient history. Not history that was hidden mind you. Just stuff that NOW was reason to deny them the bridge.

    It was and is appalling. And the misapplication of the illegal PC PL has always galled me. The intent of the PL/HCOB was to keep those ENTERING scn from starting in the hopes of a miraculous cure. (for their terminal illness)

    NOT used to dump SO members or public into the street saying — tough luck you’re a downstat PTS sickie.

    This whole misapplication of LRHs intentions to this day still gets me frothing —


  10. Is this person directly soliciting donations from Church members to contribute to political activities on behalf of Co$? If so it’s a violation of IRS 501(3)c regulations for non-profit orgs. I’m not a tax attorney but I’ve served on non-profit boards for years and this is a big deal. It spuds like a direct “shakedown” of members which only adds to the severity of the violation. Comingling of funds used for purposes obtained for specific projects or purposes along with general operating funds is another no- no. I’m sure that Senator Grassley would be interested in learning more about the Co$ financial activities I don’t recall if the church was one of those which were under scrutiny by his Senatorial Committee, but this sounds like the exact type of financial improprieties that he was investigating for compliance irregularities.

    I have no skin in this game other than as a US taxpayer and a fierce advocate for free speech & freedom of religious expression, along with the other fundamental rights outlined in our constitution. I’ve been following the efforts of the Independent Movement along with the courageous former Church members who are highlighting the illegal activities sanctioned by the church.

    As a “wog”, my opinion is merely offered as a voice of reason from the outside looking in, but I do admire the way you folks are attempting to maintain ethics and principles above the fray. For what it’s worth, I feel certain that your growing movement has done a good job overall in staying on message. I know it’s difficult to maintain focus as your numbers increase and the needs of the group expand. I apologize about the lack of brevity, but I really felt the need to point out my observation of the Co$’s lack of fiscal responsibility under the IRS Code. But foremost in my objectives here is to tip my hat to your community of principled folks that I am proud to be with alongside on this planet. Best of luck!

  11. crashing upwards

    CCHR is a joke. If they all hadnt signed undated resignations then maybee they could investigate Human Rights abuses within the Church of Scientology. The psych issues is probably not the reason anyway for their opposition. More likely that the church would have to fork over money to buy health insurance for its members, heaven forbid. Whats next, decent pay and quarters. Maybee freedom of movement and speech.

  12. The lack of willingness to confront handling the severely enturbulated always bothered me, as a staff member and as a health care professional. Its one thing to denounce poor treatment modalities and inhumane conditions but quite another to insist that psychiatry and psychology be “knocked off the planet”. The CoS is NOT stepping in and providing an alternative for those poor afflicted souls and their families. My question was never answered…Why doesn’t the CoS put something in place to provide an alternative to psychiatric treatment using the tech? Never made much sense to me…
    So the dwindling spiral continues…and what we have seen of the out ethics on Wall Street and with mortgage bankers and the banks is mirrored at the top of the CoS Org Board.
    The need for health care reform (and more importantly health insurance reform) is paramount for the economic stability of this country. That CCHR is fighting reform reaffirms my disagreement with the group.

  13. martyrathbun09

    Going off into CFR counts is like counting the number who graduated from college. Next think you know they’ll have you reading Rule by Secrecy and buying into the Confederacy was right, John Birch was right, you really should distrust people of color, anyone who works for a living is expendable trash and finally nothing we do makes any difference because Aliens are running the whole show anyway. I highly suggest you embark on an alternative study of history: beginning with Howard Zinn’s People’s History of the United States. One reason DM survives is that he has really attained the very best people’s dream: total slavery with unlimited wealth.

  14. martyrathbun09

    Dagny: Example: DM tells IG Ethics to have CCHR mobilze on Eli Lilly and Prozac. IG Ethics sees all OSA INT Execs and head of CCHR and works out full scale attack. DM revels in the headlines, positioning it as his product. Eli Lilly counter attacks and DM’s name gets sullied pretty badly (e.g. Time mag 91). DM settles and agrees to never again attack Lilly and Prozac. CO OSA gets the order direct from DM, “call off the dogs.” CCHR head gets pulled in and order forwarded. Ever wonder what happened to that epic battle? Now you know.

  15. martyrathbun09

    Jim Logan: You are right on once again.

  16. martyrathbun09

    Eldon, Right – any rule can be bent if enough money is involved.

  17. Boyd:

    Occasionally I visit a friend who has Alex Jones on the internet. IF you listen to Alex Jones for more than 2 minutes, your tone level will drop. You will feel disempowered, unhappy, and start snapping terminals.

    Honest — I’ve watched it with my friend. I’ve warned him that the information which MIGHT in part be correct, WILL lower his tone level (vibration), will bleed out to others and in general will be harmful.

    Whether Barak’s entire cabinet is made of CFR members or not is unimportant. What IS important is that he effectively change conditions on the planet which he can only do if he lives.

    Having a room full of the ostensible enemy seems like a damn smart move, to me, as they are covering his back to protect their own interests.

    Things are NEVER as they seem. Never, ever ever. There is a subtle side.

    Buddhist say there is the outer, inner and secret.

    What you are viewing is the outer. Acting on it without looking for the secret and inner is foolish. Secret and inner are not clandestine – they are within you/within me.



  18. martyrathbun09

    Good advice. Tone levels have wavelengths. The wavelength of the chatter that comes from the far extremes seems to vary between 1.1 and 2.0 to me. People in that band lie with reckless abandon. Sort of the same feeling you get if you spend much time on the natter boards.

  19. I see – thank you for clarifying. And yes…I did wonder about that and a number of others….

    Interesting to note the quote of the week sent out via email from Bridge:

    “…instead of worrying day and night about what the federal government is or is not going to do, instead of worrying about the fact that we apparently have no sweepingly effective leaders, and instead of worrying about what they did do or didn’t do or what the army says or didn’t say or what the navy says about the army, and so forth, instead of worrying about this sort of thing, would it not be possible to just skip it.

    “That’s a rather startling proposal, but just skip it and be effective by making it possible for a country to exist some time in the future. Instead of worrying about whether it exists now, or whether it’s functioning now, let’s just get down to the grass roots and begin to grow a country, person by person, guy by guy, IQ by IQ. And sooner or later these people will be smart enough to find some leaders and get a show on the road.”

    — L. Ron Hubbard

  20. Pingback: Tweets that mention C of S launches torpedoes at Health Care legislation « Moving On Up a Little Higher -- Topsy.com

  21. Gaia,

    I believe that in the beginning the handling of pshyciatric abuses on individuals was a noble one. But at an earlier point in time there was an affordable solution; as an example one could co- audit Book 1 or a Div 6 course that was not cost prohibative; Ups and Downs in Life perhaps.

    However at this point in our evolution the alternative is very costly and out of the reach of many who are seeking help. For the average person trying to improve his lot in life the decision is the cost of the bridge (don’t even count the additional donations) versus a visit, covered by insurance, with a licensed professional and a prescription at Walgreen’s.

    For someone that is spiritually troubled trying to get out of bed in the morning to go to work in order to feed his family it is a no-brainer.

    I think the idea of a Life Improvement Center that delivers the lower cost courses is a great model.

    Unfortunately, it doesn’t end up being that simple.

    “My question was never answered…Why doesn’t the CoS put something in place to provide an alternative to psychiatric treatment using the tech?”

    From the church’s viewpoint they did…the Bridge.

    I agree with stopping the psychiatric abuse and drugging of troubled people and I also agree that there has to be a better solution in place.

  22. Kendra anonymously posted some pretty critical stuff on a.r.s. a couple of years ago. She since got married in China where she was studying, and her parents flew over to attend the wedding. So they thought better of it, even though they know she’s blown for good.

  23. Ah, but I’m not talking about folks who are functional. I’m talking about those whose cases are far below standard scios handlings. These are people who require exquisite handling just to get in communication. What CCHR forgets are those who cannot function, work at a job, or anything else because of the constant pictures and voices they see and hear. Psychiatry doesn’t cure them but sometimes manages to either warehouse them or drug them to the point they can be released. My frustration is that CoS never came up with an alternative to warehousing or drugging for these folks. Just “get rid of psychiatry” with no alternative for the truly chronically enturbulated. Yeah it would cost a lot…but it is certainly doable. The lack of confront and responsiblity is what bothers me. And I realize LRH created the Bridge for those that are able. I just don’t feel its ethical to turn our backs on those who aren’t there yet. I totally agree the cost of the Bridge is out of reach and just fills DM’s coffers. Again, I am not in agreement with the current group of Co$ or CCHR.

  24. Gaia,
    The Cof$ did put something in place, at least for sudden psychotic breaks. Their “mental health experts” used it on Lisa McPherson. Marty’s account of that debacle is on this blog, I believe.

    More recently, Martine Boublil, a French lady suffering from depression, was imprisoned by her brother (a medical doctor) and subsequently rescued by the Italian police after she tossed a stack of SOS pleas written in lipstick into the neighbors’ back yard. No kidding.

    Too bad the expert Dr. Tom Cruise wasn’t asked to lend his expertise in those cases. But maybe he was busy having a manic episode on videotape ;-).

  25. The best leaders lead by example. Not through “punishment\drive” mechanisms. We have endless testimony of Man’s Inhumanity to Man. Churches are supposed to be something else. We had to focus on “making the able more able” just so we wouldn’t get sunk out of the starting blocks. But this society is not geared towards real, lasting help and re-habilitation, having become so used to the quick-fixes of an injection, or a pill, or a piece of legislation. It’s going to be a long road back up. But I take cheer that there are others of like mind and ability, who are doing something about it, in whatever way, every day.

  26. Hey Marty,

    So thats the reason we never heard again of it. You sometimes just give out important data as a side comment, but it makes history clearer. Why don’t you do a full debrief of all your years involved. It woild help an amazing lot of people to better understand.

    Have a nice day !

  27. BW is operating on his most senior datum -wipe out psychiatry – so this comm makes perfect sense.

    Also, understand that a form of universal health care is going to happen lest citizens start bearing arms on the streets in protest.

    The cat’s out of the bag. The question becomes, What form will it take?

    The current version of this Bill is – typically – filled with all kinds of add-ons which have been thrown in to get the support of different factions.

    I see nothing wrong with diluting the mental health component.

    I’ve seen what’s left after psych “treatments”. You’d need a very high level of confront to be able to have such people in your space.

    On this score, the Old Man’s paranoia was right on the money: psychs are the Orwellian black hats on the whole track (or at the very least their henchmen, which I find even more reprehensible). I’m not ready to be reasonable with them.

    By the way, I was never really bothered by the “Making Illegal PCs” party line because I saw it as very arbitrary. My real issue is that confused people are spun into oblivions from which they return – if they return at all – very much worse than they began.

    Again, the old whole track parlour trick of substituting Betrayal with Help. It’s that same implant which drives certain people very mad about the subject of Scientology.

    As for handlings, nutrition, exercise and a destimulated environment are the cornerstones and they don’t cost much other than someone’s time to provide them. Confront isn’t high with these cases so it’s all very gently, gently.

    It’s a good point to ask what Scn is doing as an alternative and goes to my long held belief that low cost Intro Auditing – basically flying ruds and Life Repair – has always been the answer to the Tech’s wider acceptance.

    Handle a lifelong ruin in a few minutes and you’ve got yourself a true believer. But charging a few hundred bucks for a 12 1/2 hour block isn’t going to enrich anyone so I can see why it’s never been adopted.

    On a broader point, I don’t think it’s necessary or productive to go after good people like Bruce and Michael.

    Marty: that’s a sad story about the (de)volution of the Eli Lilly cycle. I wondered what had happened there and probably should’ve figured it out as from my own experience I know that Lilly doesn’t play nice.

  28. Gaia,
    You made a valid point here and I understand the differentiation. I’ve an ‘inside’ story to relate. LRH asked my ex-wife Annie ‘what would you do to handle’ the exact situation you mention. He wanted her to realize that this is a societal issue that needs addressing and she should get her noggin’ working on it.

    Full responsibility for the impact of Scientology on the world around us, includes those beings in the condition you relate.

  29. Marty, would that IG Ethics person having that original meeting with the DM program in hand have been you perchance? Less there be any doubt about the veracity of your response here, then?

  30. Sounds like the same logic the anti-Scn “far left”, as Marty calls them, portends just because DM/LRH have some less than pristine bark or branches!

  31. John Doe Lurker

    I believe the original purpose of CCHR was to “clean up the field of mental health”, or something similar.

    Again, we have seen a tremendous alteration and perversion of something that started off good.

    Cleaning up the field of mental health would involve getting those practitioners to self-police themselves, with the threat that if they did not, a group like CCHR would expose their misdeeds.

    Getting CCHR back onto it’s original purpose would result in their activties being less crazy, more cost effective, do-able, and actually beneficial.

    “Wiping Psychiatry off the Face of the Earth” as a purpose is actually an extremist’s statement of Jihad against a profession!

  32. martyrathbun09

    Mickey, Si.

  33. martyrathbun09

    Huck. Thanks. Whether Bruce is well intended or not, his zealotry is not advancing Scientology in the slightest. I invite you to watch his interview with Anderson Cooper – type Anderson Cooper and Bruce Wiseman on You Tube and you’ll find it. I don’t believe his argument reforms Psychiatry, or wipes it out, nor does it advance Scientology in the slightest. Quite frankly, to approach the entire practice as opposed to abuses and abusers, as a whole track alien implant is entirely non-productive; actually counter productive. And I emphasize all of this in spades when the very organization bitching about the “whole track parlour trick of substituting help with betrayal” is in fact practicing that which they are accusing others of. It is kinda like Colin Powell tried to tell Bush before the Iraq Invasion, something about it being the Pottery Barn, you break it and you own it. DM’s church cannot even handle the “able” elite it wants to exclusively cater to, let alone a rough case, and even further let alone, folks who are in a whole lot of hurt.

  34. martyrathbun09

    LO. Working on it, but I’m probably going to have to retire for a few months to get it done right.

  35. Jeeze why is everyone so AGAINST universal health care?? Japan has it, Canada has it, France, England, Denmark . . . etc. America is the ONLY industrialized nation without it. We have the MOST expensive private health care that has no regulation and has the ability to willy nilly deny the right of any person to have it. Including children and pregnant women. What is wrong with people that you don’t want to help everyone be healthy? If all these other NON SOCIALISTIC countries can do it why can’t we?

  36. what is a.r.s.?

  37. martyrathbun09

    Ex RPFer. I’m with you.

  38. This really doesn’t have anything to do with this post, however, I always like to have a reason to dance.

    Maybe this song will give you a reason, too.

    Hope y’all have a great Sunday.

  39. martyrathbun09

    Thanks Cathy!

  40. crashing upwards

    Huck, your right, those working on these church front groups are doing what they think is right. We all did, as staff or in other roles.

    CCHR was the first and is the most well known of the front groups. But it exists only to do managments bidding. It doesnt offer any services, doesnt help anyone. Its a PR front to attack those who attack you.
    Years ago these groups were put under an umbrella group called the Association of Scientologists for Reform (ASR) with its own corporation and signed, undated resignations.
    I dont know if they still use that or not. This way they could support or oppose legisaltion.
    But it was always just a PR tool of the GO and after that, OSA, I assume.
    Forget the new health law, the fact is that mental health services are available in all government or private health programs already. The Church doesn’t attack medicare. So the timing is more likley a diversion. They never put much resources into CCHR before it was ASR and it looks like they still dont. If they were truly interested in supporting human rights they could have used some of those millions spend on real estate. Its all bull. Unfortunately. And I mean that because as you point out, people are being damaged by psychotropics and institutionalization. But its not our priority to help them. We just use the issue for our own advantage. Sad to say, but I honestly believe that is the case.

  41. G. Shutte asks: “What is a.r.s.”

    Sorry, I should have spelled that out. It is alt.religion.scientology, the usenet group where the “Internet war” started back in 1994. Here’s an historical article:

  42. In the Netherlands even the homeless get healthcare if they register themself at a homeless sheltre.

  43. P.S. Kendra’s story is gone from the ExScn Kids website except for the French translation. However, it was picked up and posted here:

  44. There is an increasing demand for more medical services.

    Due to the recent economy, some hospitals have been cutting back on their delivery of services and employment of staff.

    If the proposed health care legislation does not increase the supply of trained health care workers or medical facilities, then the quality and availability of health care will decrease.

    I am reminded of protesters who used to say that Scientology training and processing should be free. They wouldn’t answer how the organizations would pay their bills or train their staff. There is a financial reality in back of any so-called humanitarian ideal.

  45. JDL,

    I was there when CCHR went completely off the rails.

    Originally, our directives written by Ron were to align ourselves with the Anti-psychiatry movement lead by Dr. Thomas Szasz and support independent psychiatrists and other therapists who wanted to clean up the field of mental health.

    CCHR’s directives were very clearly written. They were basically to make Szasz and other psychiatrists like him opinion leaders in the field while exposing the crimes of institutional psychiatry. Either by direct prosecution as in the case of Applied Medical Enterprises or exposes’ written in Freedom Magazine, such as the ones on Mk Ultra and other mind bending Government programs.

    Most of the people who worked there at the time were non-SO including the ED. In fact many of the staff had been former victims of psychiatric abuse themselves, so they knew first hand what CCHR was dealing with since they themselves had been in the belly of the beast which made them enthusiastic researchers and litigators.

    I worked in qual so like my stint in the GO knew what the directives were that were supposed to be followed and I can tell you that the whole activity was derailed by OSA Int and Bruce Wiseman who became the international spokesman to some kind of all out jihad against psychiatry and any other mental practices in general. Completely in contradiction to any of these earlier directives.

    Worse they got rid most non-SO staff, including the ED and replaced them with SO terminals who like their leader “knew best” and turned the operation into a circus side show, like that grotesque “Museum of Death”.

    Bruce Wiseman, who as far as I’m concerned is, like Tom Cruise a complete idiot wrote an inflammatory and poorly researched book entitled “The Betrayal of Psychiatry”, filled with nothing but undocumented conspiracy theories.

    Not only that but he also injected his own neo-conservative political world view into the whole scene.

    This is where you get the completely insane conspiracy theory, that it was really psychiatry through UBL’s Dr. Ayman al-Zawahiri (who is in fact a medical doctor and has no connection to psychiatry) who brought down the towers at the World Trade Center and that it was psychiatry and not ill conceived US foreign policy and CIA’s efforts in Afghanistan during the ‘Cold War’ that created al-Qaeda.

    Now like the John Birch Society who used to see a commie in every corner. Mssr Wiseman sees a psychiatrist behind every piece of health care legislation forwarded by the Democrats . Not only that but it is being supported by a President who is anathema to the neo-cons and their dreams of world domination as expressed in their manifesto PNAC:


    which isn’t a conspiracy theory because it is based on hard facts and documentation.

    Also note that when George Bush was creating his own little institutional psychiatric police state that there wasn’t a single murmur from Wiseman and his politically controlled CCHR.

    Ask yourself why is that?

  46. Hi Marty,
    I want to know is if you are aware of LRH advices that condone the kinds of things that DM is doing. An ex-SeaOrg member ( CMO level ) from Australia is saying that lots of Sea Org members do the ame things as DM because it is sanctioned in LRH advices at the highest levels of the Church, but are not broadly known to others in the SeaOrg or the public.

    The reason I am intersted is that if there are LRH advices that sanciton this behavior that maybe it will continue even if DM gets ousted.

  47. Marty, I fear the wounds are a little too fresh and maybe too deep for you on some subjects so we’ll have to agree to disagree on this one.

    No matter how corrupted you see the CoS, there’s still – in spite of it all – many, many good people doing great things in courserooms and auditing rooms across the planet.

    This can’t be overlooked and can in no way be compared with the zombies created by witch doctors in white coats and their masters at Big Pharma.

    And, for the record, I never mentioned aliens…

    ps – Crash, I agree the scene’s not ideal at all but at least CCHR creates an awareness of psychiatric criminality.

  48. martyrathbun09

    Alex, you are probably right – there is no one left independent, rational thinking enough to see that there are three distinct things called past, present and future.

  49. martyrathbun09

    All right. I never said a thing about anyone in any course room or auditing room, did I? Did you watch the interview with Bruce I suggested?

  50. martyrathbun09

    Thanks RJ. I have asked myself why.

  51. Jeff,

    It’s wonderful to have someone who has never been a Scientologist allying with the Independents, and contributing to the reform effort on a forum like this. I’m glad you’re here!

  52. Marty,

    I’m curious. You were involved in the IRS battle, and you are, most likely the man who won that battle. You, of all people, know quite well where the church oversteps its bounds in terms of tax-exemption rules/requirements.

    This would seem to be but one example of that, but I’m sure you could provide many more. You could, quite probably, be a one man wrecking ball with a few well-placed calls to the IRS. So why don’t you?

    The answer may be that you don’t want to do that sort of “damage,” but I think the answer to that is as ethical and simple as “if they break the rules, they do not deserve the exemption. Period.” (and I’d still like an answer to my Norton Karno question, someday).

  53. Maybe Huck didn’t watch it but I did and was appalled by the obvious lack of education BW has regarding current psychiatry, psychology.

    Since it’s doubtful that BW took 5 minutes to google Anderson before the interview it’s doubtful he knew that Anderson’s beloved older brother jumped to his death in 1988.

    BW came across as an robot.

    BTW — RJ, thanks for the window of insight into CCHR and where it tanked and to Marty for the reason the Eli Lilly war ended so quickly.

    We are definitely experiencing a group engram session here. Thanks!!

  54. Thanks Marty.
    I gather from your response that there may be such advices but if taken out of context from the past and applied robotically then we get what we have today and might get tomorrow. Sad, what will we do to keep the tech alive?

  55. No, Marty, you didn’t, but I want to make the distinction that although there’s gross outnesses on this side of the fence, the bad guys still live on the other side of the fence.

    I don’t believe every psych is up to no good but as a practice, it’s misguided at best and pretends to have answers when it doesn’t even understand the problem.

    I could fry you up a brain and modify not just unwanted behavior but wipe out pretty much all individualism. I could give a kid drugs which will stop him climbing trees during math class.

    I also have untangled enough implants to know that the clever little bastards behind them have earned my wrath.

    So, no, I’m not ready to accept psychiatry when I know that Scientology – the practice, if not the institution – actually works and no one has to get hurt in the process.

    Bruce didn’t handle that interview well, agreed, but let’s go on and look at the rest of that interview, when Anderson Cooper asked Nada Stotland, of the APA, about 100,000 people a year getting electric shock.

    COOPER: it sounds like a lot of people, 100,000.

    STOTLAND: Well, it’s not a lot of people compared to how many people have depression.

    And you know, it’s easy to describe that as an inhumane treatment. Let’s talk about surgery, let’s talk about playing with knives. Surgery is — also could be described as a brutal treatment. It’s something that we do to cure people. And electroshock therapy, which is done now with anesthesia and with permission from the patient, can help people who would otherwise die of depression.”

    Jesus wept.

    Let’s talk about playing with knives, indeed …

  56. martyrathbun09

    Huck, I’m with you on that.

  57. martyrathbun09

    Alex, I think simply study and apply it for starters.

  58. I understand you need time for to write your whole debrief, and I’m happy you’ll do it. But it seems that quite some other people need to do it too !
    When reading the posts here it starts to make more and more sense how Dm and whoever else perverted the purposes of Scientology.
    Lots of intelligent people around here with good Ideas. Lrh was attacked, but I think in 1982 he said that this is handled (Journal).
    What I’m mostly mad at is all the nonsense and lies we have been told that were directly from LRH. It lets you in a very strange state of mind. Your thinking is just blocked and you have to inval. yourself of not beeing enough intelligent to be able to grasp it. I never got it as I was looking around in my normal life and didn’t find any raving mad psychiatrists or schools that were full of psychologists and psychaitrists. I made other experiences and never could understand all those conspiration theories. I would be funny , when one day CCHR will find out that behind Napoleon or Nero there were psychiatrists and publish it widely. If you go to a^Briefing of Osa or IAS or CCHR they are creating a dangerous environment around you. Allready 5 years ago (i’m still in good standing) I recognised them as chaos merchants.

    have a nice Day

  59. Thanks Marty.
    Hope all is well with you. Just to let you know the pressure is being cranked up on me for communicating. I will keep you updated.

  60. martyrathbun09

    Alex. Ok – email me if you want.

  61. In one of the Congresses LRH defines psychiatry as ‘care of the insane’. In the Introduction to Scientology DVD the interviewer asks LRH about psychiatry and LRH laughs and says of the insane – we have nothing to do with the insane. They’re … well they are insane”

    There are insane people and that just happens to be a fact. Someone has to look after them – that is also a fact. Some of them are quietly insane, some are dangerously insane. What you have to do to look after them depends to a large degree on what kind of insane they are.

    Scientology doesn’t want to do the job of dealing with them, and so the effort should be to get psychiatry to do their job – without abusing patients.

    We are talking reform of abusive practices – again – and treating people with love and respect – again.

    I was at a CCHR annual dinner and sat next to a Mayor of a local town and got in good comm with him through the evening. His take on the event – by all means correct the outnesses in psychiatry. That is laudable and that is good and everyone agrees it needs to be done. But total, global, eradication and extinction of ALL psychiatrists – that is extreme and people do not agree with that.

    Extremists are extremists. It is hardly ever right to be an extremist. I have, for a short period of time thankfully, had to look after a really insane person. It is not easy and it is not nice.

    Now if there was somewhere you could send a person like that and they would get properly looked after, fed, nourished, entertained and possibly even loved – now that would be valuable to society.

  62. Huck,
    In my response at the top I mentioned workable technology re: the collective ‘psych’ subjects.

    There is NO comparison in fact between Scientology and these.

    CCHR’s fundamental purpose when it came into existence and with a rational admin scale has gone a long way to making known the barbarities of various ‘mental’ treatments and it’s a vital purpose still. Maybe even more so considering the plethora of pharm and the DSM’s committee on inventing disorders to cure with pharma.

    That’s a social effort and well within the confines of the 501 (c) limits and doesn’t violate LRH policy on Politics, Freedom From.

    None of us, including you, have any illusions about what goes on in these various fields of treatment in the name of treatment or what passes as knowledge of the actualities.

    The issue with DM as I see it, is he simply dramatizes the destruction of whatever it is he’s onto. So he’s corrupted the action of CCHR to a political tool, maybe even into his personal lobby for his lunatic aims.

    Scientologists who know there business can work at a level of responsibility and cause with a targeted approach aligning with an Admin Scale.

    There are a lot of beings in need of real facts and workable tech in the field of the mind. The article at the outset isn’t describing that and that’s not what this lobbying is about. As far as I can tell anyway.

  63. Concerned Citizen

    I my friends, have an answer, perhaps not the answer, since I don’t know all the reasons why “everyone” is against it. But I am one of those “Against”

    The first thing you got to do is separate generalities, I’m not against Universal healthcare, as in health care available to all. I’m against the wording spelled in several proposals, which “standardizes medicine to WHO standards”

    I’m a firm believer of alternative modalities, and these have been severely restricted in all countries with Universal health care, even Mexico. Visit them and ask them for Vitamins over the counter, if you get them, you get small dozes and very limited things like that. In Most of Europe, you need a prescription to buy VIT C. Forget about getting herbal and homeopathic treatments easily.

    Now I know there are a lot of quacks on these fields, but there are real gems, and I frankly rather see these people than some allopath.

    I’m not totally against western medicine either, it has it’s place, but I believe that in the absence of such stringent rules, as detailed in Codex alimentations, these practices have flourished and expanded well. I enjoy having access to these – knowledge and the practitioners. You may say the standardization allows for certain modalities within certain limits. It is the limits and the regulation of these field that bothers me. I’m not asking for funding, the field has been doing fine without it. Just no more restriction than already in place.

    So, by all means, provide insurance for all, but not by implementing regulations designed to stamp out or seriously curtail alternatives.

    Also, I do not want to be legally required to have test, screenings, or vaccinations, I certainly do not wish my children to be subjected to arbitrary medication without recourse. (Already happening) these things are included in the languages of most bills on the floor. It is a matter of finding what is really needed and wanted by the people, and not just the major insurance companies, AMA etc.

    I’m not a republican, nor am I a democrat. I take each issue and politician and make an opinion according to the merits of each and act accordingly. I’m for fiscal responsibility. On the fiscal side of things, the public option needs to be researched in terms of funding too, it is all very well to say yes you may have coverage, but there does need to be a solid plan of how you are going to fund it. That too is a consideration, it is not a NO, it is a let’s get our heads together and come up with a plan that will not bankrupt us even more.

    Other than that, majority of people I know have no problem supporting access to sound medical care, specially preventative care for everyone. As long as these considerations are handled, I’ll vote for it. We need it, heck we need it 30 years ago.

  64. Marty,

    First of all let me say that I’m sorry for the guff you got in the comments section of your posting yesterday re: Mr. Cooley. While I understood the BPC some were trying to air, that was in no way the place to do it.

    I wanted to ask you a question, and it’s prompted by a recurring theme you’ve been bringing up: playing the piano. Not seeing the forest for the trees, etc. In other words, the ability exists to take and interpret a policy for evil as well as good. I get this and agree with it in essence. I’ve read Intelligence FO’s and PL’s, for example, that one could SAY justified actions re: Paula Cooper, etc. But you also have a policy letter (a senior one) that clearly states you don’t violate the laws of the land. So I get what you’ve been saying completely.

    Which brings me to my question re: DM. Janice Grady – who is NOOOO fan of DM’s – was once asked on the Ex SO group if she thought DM thought he was acting for the greater good of Scientology. Her response, however grudging, was yes, she thought he was convinced what he was doing was for the greater good of Scientology.

    What’s your view on this?

    I was thinking about it in reference to your points re: playing the piano. I’ll bet Jane Kember was 100% convinced that Snow White was in the best interests of Scientology and LRH, you know? That whole taking a policy and applying it in a destructive way.

    I appreciate your thoughts.

    Oh – and on this general issue of the post – I tend to think Scientology shouldn’t be activist in areas it’s not going to be able to take responsibility for. That’s my simple view that doesn’t require me getting into the pros or cons of Psychiatry – you already went into this, Marty.

  65. Marty,
    I found this video of Anderson Cooper with Bruce Wiseman on Google Videos instead of You Tube.

    The link is:

  66. If you want to more about psychiatry than its dark side (which certainly exists), you’d do well to start by learning about how the Menninger family transformed and legitimized the profession starting after WW II. This excellent 1948 article. which includes an historical overview, is a good place to start:

    And here’s one about lobotomy from 1946: “The operation is a desperate last resort.”

  67. martyrathbun09

    Another view, Thanks. I think my views as to where DM is leading Scientology are covered throughout the hundred and some blog posts here.

  68. martyrathbun09

    GB – thanks.

  69. Thanks for calling our attention to that interview with Anderson Cooper, and to Sinar for finding the link.

    Boy, did Bruce Wiseman make a fool of himself! He reminds me of a right wing bigot preacher — indignant, spluttering and incoherent. But maybe Davey thinks that’s cool.

  70. JLo, Destruction is the trade-in-stock of the Anger band.

    Again, I’m not burying my head in the sand on outpoints within the CoS but I want to make clear that the other side of the fence is definitely not greener.

    Their game in PT is to invent a mental disease, set up The Advisory Council on Inability To Stop Watching Late Night TV which will unfailingly recommend that the billions suffering silently to this terrible disease be immediately put on a drug to alleviate their symptoms but, of course, if they experience an erection lasting longer than four hours they should immediately report to the emergency room.

    LO, Glad that you’ve managed to lead a life free of such scenes but we don’t have to go as far back as Napoleon. Let’s look at Ernst Rudin, the esteemed professor of psychiatry at Munich University who legitimized Nazi thinking on creating a “pure” race with his “science”.

    Rudin was behind the Sterilization Courts – one judge, two psychs – which served to stop “defective” people from having children. The goal wasn’t just blond haired, blue eyed children but a society which could be counted upon to agree and be obedient.

    Controlling populations through covert mechanisms has been the M.O. of this crowd for a very long time. They haven’t always been known as psychs but these are leopards whose spots don’t much change.

  71. I will ad a few stats for thought. I post the hypothesis that the litigeous nature and the corporate governance of the healthcare as well as big fish republicans keep your US healthcare frozen in Time.

    An excerpt

    What’s astonishing is the difference in per-capita costs for healthcare between the US and the Netherlands:

    Healthcare expenditure per capita in 2007 in US$:

    $3092 Netherlands
    $6096 United States

    Note also the infant mortality rate per 1,000 live births:

    Netherlands: 4.9
    U.S.A.: 6.4

    and life expectancy:

    Netherlands: 79.4
    U.S.A.: 78.1


  72. My whole Life-time, while I was disseminating Scientology, I always preached that the problem of humanity is that people exist that have aberrations and no POLITICAL SYSTEM, RELIGION, ECONOMIC SYSTEM or whatever will handle the individual aberrations.
    The only way to handle it , is by taking one individual after the other audit and train him (also educate) and then these individuals will find good solutions, as the aberrations are gone.
    So I think it’s lost time to care about politics or other isms (as long as one isn’t stopped to deliver) and just take the planet into session. We have to handle each individual.


    The current C.O.S isn’t anymore interested in handling Individuals, but runs on a short circuit of trying to handle masses of people with one thing as:
    – everyone has to do the basics
    – movies disseminate not individuals
    – everybody is Pts (around 1997), everybody has to do the PTS Course
    – Whole fields of Orgs are out-ethics (what Co Clo EU loves to say at his events) and have to do conditions and ows writeups.
    – No auditor knew what a F/N is. All have to retrain.
    – Blinds have been leading the Blinds. Everybody has to retrain.
    – The people on the planet can’t read, so we have to show everything in movie form on the Internet, the Books etc… (funny the most visited Internet Side in the world is wikipedia which is 98% percent of text only).
    etc… ad infinitum…
    The only why’s that were presented in the last decade by Management were always whys about
    masses and how to handle the masses of people.

    But the religious Philosophy of Scientology has to do only with how to get an individual Person in better shape and that’s all.
    Always Individuals have handled problems of masses. History proves it. See Mandela, Jesus, Lrh, great presidents of U.S.A. etc..

    So let’s get into session and handle the aberrations. This is the only road out.

  73. martyrathbun09

    LO, yeah man.

  74. Branwell Brontë

    Late on this — terribly so.

    Despite the enthused ‘grab your flintlock musket’ email of Wiseman and Duff, the 60 votes were gotten in the upper chamber of Congress by Senate Dems to invoke cloture and begin debate on the bill.

    One battle lost by those who would attempt to thwart the availability of affordable health care to millions of uninsured Americans, tens of thousands of whom die each year for a want of it.

    Hoping that Senator Ben Nelson of Nebraska, who is indeed a conserva-dem on whom they wanted to concetrate comm, was not offended by a likely influx of emails and faxes addressed to the ‘Honorable Bill Nelson.’ Senator Bill Nelson is from Florida. Their senator list contains the error.

    Helps to have your US lawmakers’ names correct when writing.

  75. Huckleberry,

    I understand you very well. And any word that you have written is true. I would suggest that you work on that subject and do something effective about it. There are lots of groups on the world doing effective things about Psychiatry and really helping people that are in need of help. The planet needs people as you.
    But, one lesson I learned well in Scientology is to concentrate on theta and thus you create more theta.
    You have to understand, that from the age of 16 til now 35 years later I was constantly being told that the psychiatrists and the pharma are our ennemies and thats the reason that Scientology is not expanding and I should now give all my money that this becomes destroyed. I never have seen Psychiatrists in action or the Pharma attacking Scientology in real. It was always told to me and it seemed very secretive what Osa knew. In my profession I had contacts to lots of social institutions that were caring about the mental Ill and psychotic people. I only saw people with good intentions and helping and I was rather ashamed that we Scientologists, that have the tech, proclaim how bad psychiatry is but don’t move one finger to help those people (aren’t they all illegal pc’s?) or offer a solution. Many social institutions, religious organisations are doing it with the purpose to help and are very kind people and are not bragging but just doing their work.
    Just to give you a datum of comparable magnitude:
    2 Years ago I read an article in a Newspaper about the Swiss Salvation Army that they had 10 % less donations in own year .Instead of 190 Millions of swiss francs (1 Sfr= 1 US dollar), they only got 170 millions of Swiss Francs – in that little country in one year-. If scientology would be working in those spheres, it would mean 5 ideal orgs per day. As this was Interesting I inquired more on the web. This army has in Switzerland alone over 50 centers with many many buildings their are owning. they have schools, preschooling, houses for women with their kids,house for drug prevention, for the poor…for every social activity you can think of. Out of their buildings you could make alone for switzerland propably about 20 ideal orgs. They are paying their staff, but also lots of people do volunteer work and they have a plafond what the highest salary is (just enough for a good life). And when you look at their worldwide activity you’ll be amazed where they are working. They do it all with love. Take some time and extrapolate those figures.
    Why isn’t CCHR so effective ?
    We have even the better Tech. The salvation army started 150 years ago with their good work.
    DM is dreaming about having the biggest rescue organisation worlwide (he told so at an event recently) with 196 000 volunteer ministers. What a dreamer !
    You have to understand ?I’m so heavy BPC on that subject of the Ennemies of Scientology, as that is daily used by so many staffs as a justification fot not applying Tech to their post, but just wanting a donation from you so they feel they produced something.
    Until around 1980 I have seen articles full of lies on Scientology, just nonsense. Since then most articles I read, where reports about mistreatments of people by the Church, sometimes heavily dramatized, but not just pure lies as before.
    LRH said around 1980 that his ennemies have lost the battle.
    So what is CCHR fighting ?
    Do they want to be chaos merchants so we give our money ?
    In my youth I used to say, when somebody critized something, do it better then the person you critisize or shut your mouth.
    Wow, sorry for that long post but it was good. Viewpoints are changing in my universe and I tthink I’m slowly getting to understand the truth.
    What a relief ! No hate but just Arc.

    Have a nice Day !

  76. CC,
    That is exactly what I am talking about. But the perfect system has yet to be built. I think the more sound argument isn’t against “Universal Health Care” but against its current proposed form. Also there is NO reformation for the current insurance industry that makes BILLIONS off of not giving people health care. Something is definitely not better than nothing in this debate but they system must change.
    I was mainly railing against the people who just want to label anything that helps all as “Socialized” and the like. I can’t stand that.

  77. martyrathbun09

    LO. It is a fourth dynamic GPM. Unfortunately, the Church and CCHR are part of the woof and warp of the GPM. The us vs. them attitude only reinforces it. In this lies why the upper end of the Bridge is utterly sabotaged in the church.

  78. martyrathbun09

    Huck and others. While I agree ECT is barbaric and should have no place in a civilized society, see the latest from NEP below. If you believe this is helping do anything but alienate people, I believe you need to apply a little theta-mest theory, separate yourself out from the GPM a bit, and cooly evaluate the situation:


    On 25-28 November marks an important date for Psychiatry, or at
    least they think so because some 8,000 Psychiatrists are expected to
    attend a conference in the International Congress Center in Berlin,

    All key pharmaceutical companies will be present (Lilly, Bayer,
    Novartis, Pfizer, Hexal and much more pharmaceutical companies).

    The one thing THEY cannot stand is TRUTH and with the new Marketing
    of Madness DVD it reveals their true intentions and facts.

    We must SATURATE this DVD, and must have a minimum 5,000 DVDs
    distributed in these three days and your support is needed for this
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    We have 24 hours to get as many DVDs as possible to Berlin.

    You can donate for the following amounts:

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    Donate today by credit card (or securely using PayPal, just clicking
    on the prices above) or don鈥檛 hesitate to call me +45 5025 5875 or
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    Tel 0045 50 255 875

  79. LO, “You have to understand, that from the age of 16 til now 35 years later I was constantly being told that the psychiatrists and the pharma are our ennemies and thats the reason that Scientology is not expanding”

    That’s an enemy line. Stats are determined by the people within organizations and there’s policy on this. Maybe someone with an OEC set can cite it, I can’t remember. Next time someone blames external happenings, insist they get corrected, and that would handle your BPC too.

    Stats are forced down, so ask them who is holding down the stats. If this reasonableness was handled with staff and SO, this alone would out DM. The only question to ask when the Int stats are down over the long term, like we have now, is WHO is FORCING them down.

  80. John Doe Lurker

    Thanks for this informative response.

    Re -Psychs responsible for World Trade Center, ad nauseum:

    A couple of weeks ago, I caught a bit of a radio show on NPR called This American Life, wherein the guy telling the story had visited the Museum of Death, and the conspiracy theory BS was where we lost him. He was pretty much with the story up until then.

  81. BH,
    It’s all over the stat policies. As well, another that stands out is the Data Series, The Why is God.

    Heck, it’s in KSW.

  82. WH,
    I watched it again, and again it was apparent he’s not drilled on PAB 151. That’s handling originations. He would have handled this utterly if he’d just handled Anderson’s origination which kept being put there and just jacking the guy’s TA, and MINE as I watched this.

    Man, that’s TR4, that’s all. There’s a line in the above PAB on TR4, paraphrased: I daresay every argument you’ve ever gotten into was because you failed to handle an origin.

    Selecting out the ‘psychs’ for randomity, and not taking full responsibility for them to keep randomity, is one thing. Obsessively dramatizing a refusal to take responsibility and thus perpetuate this GPM to the detriment of the dynamics is a whole other ‘black ball’.

  83. CC,

    That’s a terrific point. I think preservation of complete medical freedom, including the freedom to use treatment modalities that the majority of conventional doctors think are bad choices, is essential to the liberties of a free people, which we are supposed to be.

    I’m intensely involved in anti-aging medicine (which is essentially advanced preventive medicine or innovative medicine). In this and other “alternative” modalities and schools of medicine, there has been much suppression. I have a friend who is probably one of the best M.D.’s in the country (she’s cured people of a number of different “incurable” conditions). Her license was taken away by the state of Kansas because her methods were unconventional.

    “Standard of Care,” in my opinion, is “the lowest common denominator.” Standardizing means that the freedom to practice any kind of medicine that isn’t considered “standard” will be denied and even criminalized. Of course, there are incompetent doctors who would harm the public with incompetent medicine below the “standard of care,” and that should legitimately be prevented by medical societies. The problem is that medical societies and the FDA also harass and persecute doctors and patients who utilize innovative medicine, which is necessarily *above” the standard of care.

    I research solutions in innovative medicine. Many of them have good reserach to support them, but are almost completely unknown to practicing physicians. Some involve natural substances such as vitamins, some involve more exotic substances. Doctors with integrity (that is, who are open) are sometimes startled to be shown such solutions that are right there in the scientific literature. Clinicians simply don’t have time to research this stuff. They are leading edge solutions, but are very non-standard. If the current health-care legislation undermines further the right of any citizen or any doctor to utilize innovative, non-standard solutions, then it will badly degrade important rights. I hope it’s not so.

  84. Huck,

    (Sorry, no reply button directly for your post.) Let’s just make sure we don’t set up a false dichotomy (between the current C of S or the psychs). In a great many ways, both are miserable. The C of S under DM is suppressive and is dramatizing some sort of whole-track holy war (nothing as benign as an erection lasting more than four hours :)). Stating this doesn’t mean anyone is in favor of psychiatry. The philosophy of Scn has nothing necessarily to do with the current C of S. So one needn’t choose between the C of S and the psychs. One can choose to be an independent Scientologist who loves the philosophy but eschews the church.

  85. GB,

    You make a great point that all independent Scns should take to heart. Extremism is what got the C of S where it is today. It’s also what begot 911 and the Spanish Inquisition. Abusive practices and abusive psychiatrists should be eradicated. But let’s guard against any form of extremism in our thinking about any group.

  86. Thanks for posting that quote Dagny. Very sooth.

    Marty thanks for the Eli Lilly story.

    It figures that it was Dave’s “bright idea”.

    Many CCHR staff saw it as more of a distraction from the purpose than anything else.

    Tanya personally thought it was a bad idea.

    I got in just after the fracas and could tell they were still in damage control.

    Anyway it was nice to see in that Miscavige ended up with most of the blow back 🙂

    At least some justice is better than none.

  87. But Jim, TR 4 is basic Scientology. Yes, you would think anyone who’s been a Scientologist for 3 months would have that skill. But I don’t think they do basic Scn in the C of S anymore. 🙂

  88. I agree Zinn’s book is one of the best books on US history ever written.

    Never read ‘Rule by Secrecy’ but what I have read of Marrs, I’ve never taken too seriously because it is obvious that he has some kind of agenda and he doesn’t allow facts to confuse him.

    Sort of along the same lines that Miscavigology asserts that psychiatry was responsible for 9/11 while ignoring all evidence to the contrary.

  89. I’m not suggesting the CoS has clean hands at all, especially on donation cycles which have gotten so out of control and ARCxen countless people, including me.

    Having a “stats push” that is measured in dollars from strapped Scientologists is an intellectually dishonest way to mimmick expansion. It pisses me off.

    My point is that there are good – very good – beings within the CoS whose goals and purposes are more closely aligned to mine than in the field of psychiatry or in the executive offices of Pfizer or Lilly or Bayer or Novartis.

    Further, the field of medicine is so thoroughly degraded – thanks, Tone 41, for your comm on this, and I could throw a lot more examples back at you – that it’s product is now money.

    MDs have to hire staff to chase down insurance payments – every insurer conveniently has different protocols, bogging the system down in a bureaucractic maze – and is forced to pay spiralling premiums to guard against malpractice lawsuits.

    The Reps are guilty up their eyeballs for this scene but why does it stay in place?

    Because the Dems won’t do the sane thing and cap damages, as is the case throughout the world, because their friends the Trial Lawyers have trophy wives to pay for.

    The net effect is that doctors spend more time on their business than they do on patients. And they’re bombarded by a legion of flirtatious buxom blonde sales reps bearing glossy p.r. on the newest wonder drugs.

    So they prescribe these drugs as it’s quick and easy (and safe, because Big Pharma will defend them in courts).

    Alternative solutions – especially those that are too cheap – are a threat to an entire industry, hence they come under attack as quackery from the AMA and FDA. Their overt doth speak loud in accusation.

    I understand, T41, about creating false dichotomies and agree but I feel that there’s a lot of CoS-as-the-most-evil-group-on-the-planet think in here. The pits of Hell are a little deeper than that.

  90. One does not have to be fascist or uncaring to oppose the massive expansion of government into the healthcare sector. Any nation with a degree of economic success has done so through the institutions of freedom…rule of law, democracy, and economic freedom defined as allowing market forces to determine the allocation of resources, having the right to one’s own labor, and private property rights.

    Even the communist Chinese figured out that you could not socialize your way to prosperity and implemented a more market based approach, but they are yet to extend that freedom to the political sector.

    So what is the correct approach to healthcare reform? Insurance should be high deductible for major medical events only. Routine visits should be out of pocket paid from a health savings account. A government safety net should exists only for the very poor and unemployed. Costs would drop like a rock in this type of system and people would take more responsibility for their own health and well being.

    I don’t to see the anti-DM movement become a knee jerk reaction that assumes that any stance the church takes is assumed to be wrong. Every issue should be evaluated based upon its own merits with the criteria of the greatest good.

    I also support the complete reformation of the church not its destruction. The reformation should be based upon the proper implementation of the tech but also reasonable policy changes that consider not only the law but societal standards that are workable. Example: 18 should be the minimum age for full time staff or SO. Kids can volunteer but must finish their well balanced education first. Example: Separate staff from volunteers. Staff should be paid a market rate for the non-profit sector. Example: Outside auditing of the finances to minimize the misallocation of funds…SOP for large non- profits.

    Bottom line stop operating like a cult (especially top management and the SO) and start operating like a legitimate non profit with its only purpose to help mankind with LRH tech.

  91. Just have to speak up here…as someone who has worked in healthcare for over 30 years, I can assure you that your “correct approach to healthcare” continues and probably worsens the status quo. Economists declare that healthcare is a market, so why are healthcare costs lower in the least competitive state, Maryland (which is the only state allowed to regulate healthcare costs) and higher in the most competitive state, California??? This is counterintuitive when viewed from a traditional economist’s perspective. And for a truly free market, regulation would have to be eliminated and I have to tell you this is a REALLY bad idea!

    Healthcare needs to be moved to a wellness approach which is the approach taken by most industrialized countries where universal care is the norm. Our stats are abysmal for what we are spending per capita, 33 in the world for our infant mortality rate as one example. And if you are concerned about rationing, care is already rationed for those without insurance.

    Right now, at least 35% of healthcare costs are for administrative costs and profit. That would take care of a lot of folks.

  92. martyrathbun09

    Gaia. Right. The same thing happened with “de-regulation” of energy and “finance.” A license to suck the last penny out of those who work for a living.

  93. T,
    You need ethics in for the tech to be in. That’s what’s out, ethics.

  94. Thank you, Jim. I’m sorry Annie was unable to come up with a solution. Or at least if she did, it wasn’t put into place. CCHR is considered the lunatic fringe in the health care field which is so unfortunate. If only they had stayed true to their original purpose of restraining abuses…

  95. Yeah buddy!

  96. Huck,
    Spot on. Yes, the pits of Hell are A LOT deeper. That’s what you, myself, and the host of independents, the well-meaning staff and public of Scientology and good beings all around are all about handling: the real Hell on earth.

    I’ve no illusions about pharma and the materialist ‘therapies’. I’m with you.

  97. Economist,
    ‘Chicago school’ unfettered capatilism in health care, policing, prisons and war, while these beings are full on materialist reactive minds, ain’t flying and ain’t gonna fly.

    Crime for profit, illness for profit, war for profit.
    DM’s Mythscavology for profit.

  98. martyrathbun09

    Jim, Chicago school is pure elitist/criminal suppression. Recommended reading Naomi Klien’s The Shock Doctrine. A smart Canadian woman.

  99. The status quo is a convoluted tapestry of private insurance (purchased or provided by employers) and government options. Last time I checked Medicaid/Medicare is the single largest provider of healthcare in this country. The current proposal is an expansion of this model so you are moving the hybrid approach further away from the market and closer to public controlled healthcare.

    You may not like a more market based approach which would be a radical departure from the existing system, but don’t blame the market because it is barely at the seen of the crime. Private corporate entities protected by the government regulation is not capitalism…it is fascist economics by definition. BTW governments paw prints are all over the financial crisis too. Wall Street is a quasi public/private entity. Note: Free markets don’t guarantee outcomes but they limit the damage of individual failings and company through immediate retribution when it’s allowed to work (Example: corrupt Enron essentially died in less than a day when the credit markets cut them off), Yes, I know there is a cost to the rank and file employees and stock holders but this can’t be avoided because instrinsic in freedom is the risk associated with failure. Markets are in a continuous state of creative destruction.

    Centralized power is the stock and trade of the suppressive no matter what its manifestation – king, fascist dictator, tribal chieftain, communist party, the holy roman emperor, etc..Check your history. How do you identify an SP in any sphere of existence…they argue for centralized control (that eventually becomes coercive) in the name of common good. Also look for individual rights to get put through the meat grinder. Anyone that experienced the suppression under DM which is a perfect microcosm of what can happen at the societal level should understand the actual and well documented abuses of dictatorship and centralized control. Their history is littered with bodies from Germany to the Killing Fields of Southeast Asia to Communist China.

    Freedom…political, spiritual, economic are the stock and trade of those that truly want to elevate man. Economic and political freedom took us out of the dark ages with horrid quality of life. Any objective analysis of the world’s economic stats over time show a direct relationship between the advent freedom in the form of markets and private property rights and production/quality of life.

    I operate a small business that works with government on a daily basis. My knowledge is not theoretical only. Additionally my family escaped the horrors of communism/socialism so I have first hand knowledge of these types of systems.

    Chicago school…evil? You may not agree with the model but educated debate requires a bit more analysis and rigor than simply labeling those with different ideas than yours evil.

  100. martyrathbun09

    The Economist, I haven’t labeled anyone evil. The Chicago school in practice has been put to very evil use, littering South East Asia, Russia, China, South America, Africa and the Middle East with far more bodies than any other cause in the past sixty years. Agreed on dictators. I object to the labeling of Western European countries that have taken a measure of responsibility for social welfare as socialist=communist=Stalin=Hitler. That labeling comes direct from the Chicago school and is promoted most vociferously through Fox Noise, Wall Street Journal, and the corporate welfare deadbeats they represent. I’m not inferring you are evil. I like you, a lot.

  101. I agree with you Marty. Just like patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel. The “free market” and in particular capitalism (which means centralized banks, instead of governments who basically achieve the same result), is the last refuge of the neo-con.

    Economist, politically I’ve always considered myself a libertarian and as far as I’m concerned BW and company are barking up the wrong tree regarding Health Care. In fact it’s benign when compared to the Orwellian programs proposed by his predecessor such as Total Information Awareness, unwarranted NSA surveillance and the Un-Patriot Act.

    The amount of economic damage it will do is negligible compared to the economic damage already done in fighting two unnecessary wars of aggression according to the Nuremberg codes.

    Compared to trillions already spent in “Defense” it’s chump change.

    One thing it will do for sure is get Americans to reconsider their values about whether they want to be the World’s Policeman or clean up their own back yard.

    As you know yourself the FSU faced a similar dilemma which is why they are the Former Soviet Union.

  102. Economist,
    I sure didn’t say Chicago school was ‘evil’. I very clearly said that unfettered capitalism with these fellas as full on materialist reactive minds, ain’t gonna and isn’t flying.

    It’s not the ‘ism’ it’s the aberration. I came to the conclusion that with the bright minds that are interested in these things freed from aberration, there would be some ethical, embracive reforms possible.

  103. The mass confusion on economic theories – other than religion, the most un-knowable of subjects – blows when you see the stable datum: Out-Ethics.

    Every economic collapse has been triggered not by mysterious economic forces but plain, simple Out-Ethics.

    When the system works well, Ethics are in.

    My personal viewpoint is that there needs to be some level of (government or not)regulation because the system won’t work without a financial police force.

    Greed’s too powerful a force for every single player in the game to withstand – and the rest will quickly go into agreement once they see someone’s getting away with it – so they need the fear of punishment to keep their ethics in.

    Dubya’s Wall Street deregulation of 2002 was directly responsible for the Global Financial Crisis but only it that it removed the barbed wire from around the perimeter and, with security low, greed took over and very clever minds dreamed up (worthless) products which were on-sold countless times to create hundreds of billions out of thin air.

  104. Huck…the crisis and demise goes back much further than Dubya. Not a Repub or Dem scenario, but rather big banking wanting to combine functions (commercial vs. investment).

    If you check into the history of the Glass-Steagall Act, put in place after the Depression to prevent that happening again, you’ll find Dubya was merely an implementing link on a long chain. The act was actually finally repealed in fact, during Clinton’s reign.

  105. Stay well, Alex.

    I hope those you love can see the out-points.


  106. Thank you for posting this Marty. I was pleased to hear your sane views on this topic, as the extremist line peddled by DM and his minions always irked me, even when I was fully in.

    CCHR would do Scientology and the world at large a favour, if it was to focus on overmedicating as a reality, as opposed to simply another “psych-busting” tool.

    Your explanation of the bsckground to the Eli Lilly war was also extremely enlightening, but it did make me wonder: if COB was prepared to cave in quite so quickly then, how much of our money has actually been used for the subsequent battles with Big Pharma?


  107. Pingback: Scientology Inc’s Secular Invasion of Washington D.C | Moving On Up a Little Higher

  108. Coming late to the conversation….

    If there is anything that I’m learning over time, it is that what one hears , in the world of politics, is not always what is actually going on. I wonder if Bruce Wiseman is not being used as a tool to rally Scientology members against Obamacare. Notice that he targets just Democrats in either conservative areas or who are running for office. He attempts to rally members by saying that the plan to extend an opportunity to access medical care to millions will promote psychiatry. Maybe, what is going on is that opponents of Obama do not want Obamacare to succeed and have located an interest group who will campaign against it. Maybe this is about exchanging favors – “We’ll advocate for you, we’ll keep the Dept of Justice off your back, but now you will do this for us.” David Miscavige’s right-wing political views permeates every area of Scientology. I view it as just another way he has enslaved members of the Church – controlling all communication and thought. I am continually amazed at how uniform the political affiliation was with members, even across geographical and cultural boundaries, even when programs and policies would benefit people directly and personally.

  109. Economist, I read in the local newspaper last week about a couple who were losing their home through foreclosure. The good news seemed to be that the bank was willing to wait to evict them until after the wife died. She was critically ill and was due to die at any moment. Both husband and wife had decent jobs, until the wife became ill. The husband then suffered a loss in his income from his construction business. The wife qualified for SSI Disability and, due to their lack of income, also for Medicare, but only if the husband did not earn any income. If he did, then his wife would not receive health care through Medicare and she would be cut off. The story went on. The bank has said that they could stay in the house, but as soon as the wife dies, the husband must leave. They are waiting for her to die. And the husband cannot work until she dies. They are all waiting. In response, people in the community have started a fund, which will help the husband relocate and support him until he can find work – after his wife dies.

    This is the kind of situation the current health care system creates, the one you describe. We can do better than this.

  110. At times, the religious bodies play a spoilsport when it comes to introducing reforms. All efforts must be made to pass the health legislation so that people can benefit.

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