Mike Rinder on Today/Tonight

My man, it doesn’t get any more professional than that!

Part I:

Part II:

237 responses to “Mike Rinder on Today/Tonight

  1. martyrathbun09

    By the way, is David Miscavige afraid of Mike Rinder? He wouldn’t even dare put Tommy Two Tone up against him. You can run, boy, but you cannot hide.

  2. martyrathbun09

    By by the way, Moderators are gonna keep it clean today. I don’t want to sully this professional piece of work.

  3. Great job, Mike. Thank you.

  4. Mike,

    You did GREAT! Thanks, man.

    Just Me

  5. This will be great to watch tonight at home. Popcorn time.

  6. Mike!!!!
    Well done!! Very well done!!!
    Love Mosey 🙂

  7. Watching Eyes

    Great interviews. Super!!

    Good job having your lawyers send the cameraman to follow Mike. You couldn’t have made Senator Xenophon’s case against the “church” any clearer if you tried. Name one other church in the world that would do this. I can’t even think of another cult that would do that. You blew it.

  8. Dear Mike Rinder,

    What was the orders of DM or OSA against me in Switzerland (1989 – 2000) ?

    Via Jurg Stettler, the OSA chief in Zurich probably…

    I will give to the swiss police your datas.

    Please contact me as soon as possible

  9. martyrathbun09

    I just read the 12 page response signed by Tommy Davis. It indicates that Mike Rinder has David Miscavige rolling the marbles. It is the biggest crock of unadulterated bullshit they have produced to date. Notice the Miscavige propaganda, now referring to the Church as something LRH “inspired.” He’s clearly positioning the church as a creation of Miscavige. Well, it is accurate as far as the black dianetics it peddles day in and day out now. But, I noticed – they are steadily writing LRH out of the church’s history. Aside from the barrage of FALSE statistics, notice what statistic they are citing. 10 of the 12 pages are about PROPITIATION/PUBLIC RELATIONS programs the chuch is allegedly running. Very little about the church itself. The letter is very telling, it describes a PR outfit covering for the very activity Mike Rinder so articulately described. Ok, I’m out.

  10. Virgil Samms

    Spectacular Mike! Smooth and convincing. Went down like fine wine.

    ML Tom

  11. I love the smell of truth in the morning…….smells like…..VICTORY!

    VWD to All concerned!

  12. When the moderator asked Mike how we knew if he was telling the truth I had to smile. What a change from before! Mike today comes across as an honest guy who is trying to right wrongs, someone who has a bit of humility, but is not self-effacing. Someone who cares. Someone tired of the lies. Someone who wants Scientology to succeed in helping people. Not an apostate. Not disgruntled about the beliefs of the church. Not as someone betrayed by a religion but by a specific individual.

    If you compared interviews of Mike when he was spokesman for the church and recent ones, there are huge but subtle differences. My friends used to laugh uproariously, wondering why the church even bothered. Too keep it clean, I’ll leave it at that.

    Just goes to show we’re in the business of change. “Never regret yesterday, life is in you today and you make your own tomorrow.”

    And this goes for holding the yesterdays of others against them.

    Congratulations, Mike.


  13. Mr. Rinder,

    Thank you for continuing to wear this hat, and for doing it so very well.

    Watching you in this interview, I am struck by the strength of character and the utter truthfulness you convey. One can’t help but
    contrast that with the “pope of scientology,” who appears to be cowering in his fortified compound in fear of the media attention, and who is now so afraid of his own shadow that he can appear at idle org openings only under armed guard, with police protection and screens that shield him from eyes of the public.

    You and Marty, Amy, Jeff and others have put those of us who are now on the outside of the church onto the comm lines of the world. And the more you shine the light of the truth on dm’s dark, shiny carapace, the more he seeks the shadows, the dark hidden places, and his world shrinks further.

    Thank you.


  14. MissBridgett

    Wonderful! Very well done. Absolutely professional & credible. Bravo! Thank you more than words can express.

  15. W.E. I thought it gave Mike great credibility, to those who’ve never heard of him, that he’s got SUCH vital info that the CoS would send a cameraman from the US to follow him! 🙂

  16. Redneck Janette From Detriot

    This is an awesome piece and your very character shines right through Mike.. calm, cool and collected! Great job!

  17. Mark Fisher

    This piece by Today Tonight and Mike Rinder speaks for itself. What a fantastic job! Thanks Mike for speaking out for those who can’t.

  18. MissBridgett

    When you read the written *response* from the CofM to this amazing good interview…you immediately get the feeling that DM, the little Wizard of *Odds* and his puppet flying monkeys…~doth protest too much!..such foolishness on their part..

    How much was Mr. *Chris* the cameraman paid via the attorneys for the CofM to video every constant move of the reporter? I enjoyed the reporter’s sense of healthy humor about it!~ looks like even Chris the Cameraman ended up having a little fun at CofM’s expense too!

  19. Very well done, Mike. I hope everyone will send the links to this story far and wide, so it has maximum impact.

    It’s frustrating only being able to see snippets. I know there’ll be more, but I sure hope they manage to do something in a longer format.

    Also, looking forward to seeing more of Christie! (I love it that you guys said he’s evil. I agree.)

  20. Great job, Mike!!!!!

    We love you man!

  21. One thing that makes me ashamed of Scientologists as a group? We spend countless hours doing TRs, training us to LOOK and to OBSERVE…but how many Scientologists have even bothered to obnose Miscavige on the tone scale. Jeez – just look at any of his official portraits, public speaking, and photo images!

    He seized power from Pat Broeker, and before that MSH, just by bravado and a few bully boys. Why can no one at INT do the same thing? Pat Broeker (whereabouts unknown) did SUCH a feeble attempt to depose Miscavige. Oh well – the “jig is up” (shortly) for the Great Dictator.

  22. Mike,very well done! Very professional. Thank you for the truth.

    Love ,

  23. Ray Randolph


    The question is always asked, “You admit to lying then… how do we know you’re not lying now?”.

    The answer is simple: Everyone on the outside knew you were lying then. The lies were so transparent in some cases that they could only have been targeted at those on the *inside*. The truth you tell now, is what many people on the outside already knew anyway.

    Isn’t it easy to sit back, relax and tell the truth? Kinda natural. It shows in your demeanor, posture, voice and face.

    May the road rise to meet you. Good luck out there.

  24. Wow. Mike I’ve been lukewarm on some of the media stuff done although the St. Pete Times videos were excellent. But I know you guys don’t have full control over what’s shown and are trying to present the right message. Also it’s easy for me to criticize but on the other hand some of the past media stuff is probably what got this movement big and established, if nothing else because of the menace it poses to Miscavige, and what his reaction to that has been.
    But this news piece was great. It was so on point. Great job! You were very believable and genuine. It was something parishioners can view and it’ll actually spark their interest to look further because the R was there.

  25. Mike, thank you so much for speaking out. This is a further huge step to let the world know the about the truth and help for Scientologists to leave the Church.
    Let me know what I can help here in Germany.

    Again thanks to all who have stepped forward , now and in earlier years. I´m proud to have you as my friends.

    The Truth is the Truth – no matter how David Miscavidge wants to change it or make it untruth.
    David, perhaps it is not real to you yet but people recognice the truth.


  26. Precisely. The outpoints were becoming more and more obvious. When I went public last year the motivation was simple and crystal clear: my friends HAD to know the truth. If it was the other way round and one of them found out the truth and didn’t tell me, I would have been PISSED. I was not prepared to have my friends come up to me later on and say “Hey, you found out about all these outpoints and what has happened to the Church didn’t even tell us about it?”

    Anyway – Mike, you have my utmost admiration and undying respect. As I said to you last year in person, you should come live in the UK – you’d be beyond welcome – and the UK public still have huge affinity for you.

  27. Marty,
    I waded through the letter, for the most part. I confess the absurd assertions trotted out continuously of ‘expansion’ get to me. I have to take off the protest button as I read them cause my Tone Arms jacks so high I get massy and end up in some timeless solidity. Sort of like all the MEST touted on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on.

    (Oops, sorry folks, bringing my TA down with some duplication and don’t mean to jack yours).

    The letter is of course a misapplication of the PR Series, an attempt to ‘double-curve’ the reply to promote the incredible gains, unprecedented, in square footage. However, what it misses, again in the PR Series, is the big, giant, huge, gargantuan elephant in the room – MIKE RINDER IS SPEAKING ON TV ABOUT DAVID MISCAVIGE’S INSANITY!!!!!!

    Tommy has gone from one of forceful not-is to one of apathetic not-is. Neither one as-ises. So, there’s Mike. Big, beautiful, and communicating.

    OSA, you fellas, hey, that is ‘pinch me material’.

    It’s actually a brick bat to the forehead and one of you guys should wake up for f’s sake.

    David Miscavige is a whole track, long term, very convincing and very SUPPRESSIVE PERSON.

    You are not confronting this and so you are effect. When you do, well, you’ll scooch on over to a bit of cause and then you’ll start to get up the line and one day, sooner than later, Mike’s TV spots will have a much different ring to them – the ring of truth.

    It’s pretty clearly ringing. It’s ringing for you. LRH is swinging the hammer. Ask ASGARD, he’ll tell you too. Even the name of the hammer.

  28. DFB aka Dfb99

    Mike looks 20 years younger than he did right before he left the church. I see the same thing happening to Tommy Davis on a more advanced progression. In five years Tommy Davis will look like Mr Smithers from the Simsons.

    If you didnt know anything of the situation and you compared Tommy Davis and Mike Rinder- just their appearance, tone, mannerisms and listened to them talk who would you believe?

  29. Bravo Mike, Christie, Amy and the ever insouciant Aussies. Calm, professional and perfect.
    Mike you were a pleasure to watch.
    Now that’s how a real Scientologist should be talking to the media and anyone else who wants their questions answered. Nothing more to add. You did what needed to be done and you did it with aplomb. Thank you!

  30. Nightmares Getting Less

    The C of M made themselves once again look like idiots.

    The reporter totally nailed the allegation the Mike R was removed in 2002, when they showed him being introduced by Miscavige in a 2004 video. And of course Tommy refused to go on the show, and the reporter says at the end of the show the audience can see the Church’s documents on their website.

    I can guarantee most viewer’s will not bother.

  31. crashingupwards

    Mike, great job. Credible. The field knows you. They trust you. This piece goes a long way to establishing ARC with the need for change where it didnt exist before and moving it on up a little higher where it already did.

    You walk softly but carry a big stick. Stay well.

  32. Ne Obliviscaris


    Very well done. Thank you for sticking up for us and continuing to speak out against the fraud David Miscavige is perpetrating against Scientologists.

    Anyone who goes along with Miscavige is a fool.

    Anyone who thinks that Miscavige’s lifestyle or treatment of parishoners and staff is justified in any way is delusional.

    In fact, it seems to me that under Miscavige, the Church of Scientology has become a giant “Protection Racket” – extorting money from it’s parishioners and labor from its staff in exchange for “protection” from the church itself!

    This “You play ball and we’ll take care of ya” message is the furthest thing from spiritual freedom. It is psychological and physical slavery.

    Also, any truly virtuous organization would not be threatened by any claims against it.

    Obviously, Miscavige has heard the ring of truth in the numerous accusations against him and is acting according to the Overt/Motivator sequence.


  33. OSA’s trying to lower the ideal scene so that pathetic stat graph levels are justified. I was told about a couple orgs that had 10 TTCers at Flag. This was the big rebuttal to my point. So WHAT? They weren’t all auditor trainees I’d bet. But what about orgs and missions that used to have 300 public (not TTC staff) in training because they wanted to be there because arbitrary basics runways weren’t there and GAT wasn’t there. There were lots of them too. Don’t fall for this lowered standard boasting people, it’s a smokescreen. At this point, even if the stat momentum was lessened from the 1980’s up to and beyond 1990, yet still uptrending, we’d be busting at the seems. So many orgs would have 1000 or more auditors in the field or in training, and HCO PL Ethics and Missions would have been followed and those long term normal Int stat graphs, which were sometimes in affluence, would have started turning more vertical at this point, because that’s how it works. All we needed to do was keep standard, and not crash the stats since 1990, and we’d be exploding right now. But we didn’t and Scientology shrank. So the next time OSA begs ethics protections because some puny div 6 stat has gotten off the ground floor for five minutes, remind them it’s all relative and what they’re showing you is actually in non-E. Ask for the real graphs ie 30 year auditors made, GI, VSD, Student points. Then the true suppression is clear.

  34. Fantastic job to all: Mike, Christie, Amy and especially to Bryan Seymore, his producers and production team for having the courage to publish the truth.

    Can you believe the BBC blew their chance to have an exclusive?

    “Many are called, few are chosen.”

  35. Mike, thank you! I am sure this interview will lead to more people realizing what is actually going on in the church of scientology.

  36. …or so called church

  37. Quotes from TD’s written response;

    “Scientology‐supported social betterment and humanitarian programs have touched the lives of more than one‐and‐a‐half billion people, ”

    Reminds me of that church promo that went out a couple of months ago statisizing “impressions” made on public, via TV commercials and such.

    Another TD response quote;

    “Working with the Foundation for a Drug‐Free World in the United States, the Church has disseminated free anti‐drug educational material to over 5,000 additional people in the community”

    For those of you who don’t know, public scientologists are crush regged for huge donations, books are printed by Sea Org members who are underpaid and overworked. Books are then distributed, however the numbers are wildly inflated. I’ve heard reports of people burning these books for warmth in severe disaster areas. Oh, your home has been destroyed and your family is dead? Here, take this pamphlet.

    But the icing on the cake is this quote;

    “Nursing Homes and Aged Care facilities—provision of musicians and other entertainment to a range of community facilities around Australia, providing joy and interactivity for those Australians residing in these facilities.”

    Nothing gets done in the church these days under the order of Miscavige unless it brings in large donos and translates out as profit and big fluffy PR.

    You can read the story of Carol Reppen here;

    Claire dedicated her life to the SO and audited over 100,000 thousand well done hours. But her body aged and she grew ill, and the typical Miscavige response was to try to hide her or offload her entirely. I didn’t know Claire, but I have known others who have quietly died inside, while avoiding a “PR flap” becomes the top priority. Or better yet offload them to a nursing home that the tax payers cover. The church under current management do NOT care for and respect it’s elders. The church under current management does NOT allow new life, children, the future to infiltrate their walls.

    My personal experience however is that if you are not in the church and your father is dying, the disconnect policy will be suspended long enough for you let him hold his newborn granddaughter for the first, and last time… long enough for you to to watch him take his last breath, which consists of a whispered apology.

    Well done Mike, and Amy… the truth is settting us all free as I type. Some faster, some slower, but I can finally see the day just on the horizon.

    What does Miscavige have? A few insiders at OSA working day and night to destroy those who would tell that truth.

    What else does he have? Plenty of money donated by unwitting public who he could never reveal the truth to. Good people, with shining intentions who are being robbed.

    Even the majority of Sea Org members have no idea what is really going on, as witnessed by Jamies story here; https://markrathbun.wordpress.com/2010/07/15/jamies-adventure/)

    When she tried to chase her disconnected father through the guarded doors of the FH in Clearwater, the Sea Org security guard started crying when she heard Jamies story.

    These people are being enslaved by lies, in the name of creating a better world. The Sea Org members are some of the most valuable beings on this planet, they deserve the respect and fair treatment that any other individual would take for granted in such noble endeavours. But what do they get? Abuse, lies, kicked out when they get sick, put into slave labour programmes if they dare question the propaganda and evil intentions. Starvation and sleep deprivation are NOT LRH “inspired.”

    I could go on and on, but this post is already too long. If this is your first visit to the blog, I encourage you to read back and see the truth of this very ugly situation.

    Because if you are on the “inside” all you have been told of Mikes interview is that he was paid $100,000 to say those things to the Today Tonight show.

    Of course it is a lie.

    As you read this blog, how can the thousands of posts by individuals such as me be explained? WHY would I say these things? What could be my motivation? There is no money involved, my time in general is limited, could it be my motivation is the greatest good? The truth? Could it be that thousands of us will not give up until that very truth has set us all back straight on the path that Miscavige has turned into a labyrinth of deception?

  38. Doc "Smith"

    Good job Mike. You’ve been through the ringer which I’m sure was tough, but now gives you the Ammo to be so effective. Thanks for putting yourself out there in the front line to help end this, and as always let us know of anything we can do to help.

  39. VWD, Mike Rinder!!!

    Way to go on going back to your home turf and doing this interview!

  40. Hi Mike and Marty,

    The various comments to this video touch upon so many valid aspects of what has CHANGED since just a year ago.

    Again, I do not speak entirely as a “spectator” of what Mike did (on the big stage, in broad public daylight) but what I (and probably many others too) experience on a smaller scale in our own environments.

    Actually, just hit a home run in understanding with my 2D right after watching Mike’s interview.

    Oh, this is for OSA: Yes, this woman (my 2d) works at a TV station – which is why you tried a false and phony approach via hushmail and all as soon as I said so in another comment on this blog. Rest assured, she still works at the TV station and your actions even make me think of using this comm line 🙂

    Back to the subject: The point my 2D had a really hard time understanding was: Why on earth would anyone stick in the SO and organized Scientology for so long when it is so god damn rough to do so (a total of more than 3 decades in my case)? (Believe me I did try to explain this point many times. I didn’t really lie but didn’t leave the cat out of the bag completely as I thought it was “unreal”).

    Now, I told her the simple truth (which I was convinced would earn me a “weird fantasy world” response).

    The honest answer for not leaving the SO was that I thought I would loose my eternity (which is also why I believe most SO members do what they do).

    Her response: NOW I GET IT! That is clearly a religious motivation – now I get it … why didn’t you tell me all this time … Why does the Scientology Church never speak about this – I ALWAYS have been wondering what is behind it and WHY people stick with Scientology …

    (wow .. I mean WOW)

    Makes you wonder, hm? At least it keeps and keeps surprising me how the TRUTH simply COMMUNICATES.

    Why do I tell this – I referred to all the changes that happened since we have these great blogs:

    – we tell the truth and it simply communicates. People DO UNDERSTAND what is being said.

    – Mike, you never came across better than in this interview – you simply were your natural, likable self.

    I’m sure that people also understand that it was you who told the truth.

    I hope and believe it was the beginning of a whole lot more to come.

    Very much appreciated, George

  41. Awesome story.

    Mike, you came across as cool and collected, though it must have infinitely easier to go in front of the cameras and not have to lie for a change.

    While Marty and others have done an amazing job telling their stories to the media, there was something quite electrifying about seeing your interview juxtaposed with moments from when you were the official spokesperson for the Church.

    I hope you continue to speak out and know you will have enormous impact. I’m sure DM and company are shaking in their booties right now.

  42. Boyd,

    You hit the nail right there on the button with “lower the ideal scene”.

    Why promote that an org has 10 TTCers as if it were something wonderful? A St. Hill sized org has somewhere around 250 staff. 10 trainees at all times in a full-time training program is the absolute minimum that org would need to just maintain the numbers. It’s 4% and people come, people go. The posts they vacate have to be replenished.

    So 10 trainees isn’t a good stats at all for a huge expanding org. It’s a “Huh? 10? Is that ALL? You’re heading for a crash!”

  43. Mike & Marty,

    Another great job! The response from Mestology can be found at: http://l.yimg.com/ao/i/hp/2010/news/may/scientology%27s_response.pdf

    You guys have David Miscavige totally speechless – he can’t answer any questions asked by the Today Tonight program. Instead, he just blatantly Q and As into some fantasyland regular event style “fastest expanding religion” & humanitarian programs rhetoric totally & typically not being able to be measured by stats (except for square feet of building space).

    I can’t wait to see more segments!

  44. The truth is starting to chip away at the base of Camera Operator Boy’s facade.

    Mike, thank you for validating my knowingness, and the knowingness of many others both in and out of the Church, that something was and is terribly wrong with the present day Church and that people are not getting Scientology as it was intended by its founder.

    Shame, shame on all who know and do not act.

    Long live the legacy of LRH, and those who practice and protect it.

    We are very fortunate that you are with us on this quest.

    With much appreciation,


  45. TR-3 the Truth.

    We will see group aberration blow to the degree that the truth is perceived by the 3rd and 4th Dynamic members.

    Are those Texas flags at the 3:28 mark? Dallas?

  46. David Miscaviage is a Spressive Person and any one connected is under PTSness until he / she is able to be free from him and its curreent structure

    Attention Marthy Rathburn /mark Rinder wants happening with Diana Hubbard if you don’t who does?

    I think there should be an open update please

    Marthy or Mark can you please explain, she needs to get out .

  47. Mike that was FANTASTIC!!!!!

  48. Thanks for having the courage to speak the truth freely. Thanks for having the class to do it so eloquently.
    Point 5 of the Code of a Scientologist: “To expose and help abolish any and all physically damaging practices in the field of Mental Health.”
    Point 7 : “To bring about an atmosphere of safety and security in the field of Mental Health by eradicating its abuses and brutality.”

    It’s just easy to apply this code in the Independent field. Seems impossible within the glistening, golden walls of the Church of Miscavology.

  49. Mike,

    I’ve watched you on many org events over the years, and I must say you were always my favourite speaker. You came across as very natural unlike most other speakers, so many of whom have an unnatural cadence to their speeches.

    I haven’t watched an event since about 204 or thereabouts, so when others allude to you not being natural anymore – well, I never watched those transmissions so I can’t say.

    But man, it’s good to see you back on top of your game!

  50. Jim:

    The same questions I have posted on this blog in the past – you bring up so nicely. Where is the PR about David Miscaviage? What are his credentials, where is he – even bigger question? HE IS NOT THE CHURCH, so telling us all about church expansion, is not filling the void about David Miscaviage and who he is. Even better why not put out a biography of Dave and his rise to power and a whole video telling about his trials and tribulations in bringing this major religion into the 21st century, especially while dealing with a bunch of SP’s underneath his nose and how at every twist and turn they made his job even harder because they were so incompetent.


  51. Well done, Mike! It is so incredibly important for people to speak out, and you’ve knocked it out of the park. I can’t wait for the BBC interview!

    — Andrew

  52. Dear Mike,

    You ARE the consummate professional. Even out of the official church of COM you represent LRH and all he worked for with class and dignity. Very well done and thank you from the bottom of my heart.

    Congratulations to Amy, Marty, Mosey, Jeff and the rest of the crew for your world-class guts and integrity.

    By the way, I read the 12 page official response. I found myself shaking my head so hard I think I now have a bad case of whiplash. Major vertebral subluxation.

    Does anybody know how I can submit the Chiropractor bill to DM?

    Respectfully yours,

    Tom Gallagher

  53. Excellent point about “LOOK” and “OBSERVE”.

  54. Mike;

    I’m very positive you have made all of the “whistle-blowers” world wide smile with a twinkle in their eye as they watch this interview.

    You give us all hope with your professionalism on camera that we just might make a difference in getting the truth known on a broad world wide basis.

    We are very fortunate to have you on this awsome team.

  55. DFB aka Dfb99

    I mean Mr Burns. I think “Smithers” was his assistant.

  56. It was nice to wake up to this, this morning.

    Thanks for taking the time and trouble to do all of this, Mike!


  57. Great job Mike! I look forward to the continuing exposure of DM and OSA.

    Mike, three questions for you:

    1. Why does OSA always shove video cameras into the faces of Australian senators, BBC journalists, Anonymous, the Old Guard, Independents, and everyone else who questions DM or CoS? Is this tactic suppose to scare people?

    2. What gets done with all of that video? Does DM watch it? Does it get hyped to Scientologists for IAS fundraising as part of DM’s dangerous environment racket?

    3. Why does DM refuse to go on camera and say, “I never hit anyone!”


  58. It’s very interesting that Chris is in the beginning, middle and end of the segment! It seems to be typical Ozzie humor and does the job of showing the bizarre oddity, legal/threatening, aspect of DM’s big brother type, sinister apparatus.

    Unfortunately, I’m not sure that he would be rehired again at great expense to Scientology attorneys as he was there, communicating and having too much fun!

    Even the free spending DM doesn’t hold events down under because of too much travel and production cost of event crew.

  59. Mike, well done on a great show. Your calmness, your candidness, your relaxed demeanor speak volumes. The Church doesn’t realize that people can “read” faces and body language. A liar looks like a liar, and people can see that. When the Church tries to play the “false outrage” card, people see it’s false. Interesting that they did not even show up to speak. Miscavige is afraid of you. Must be nice to have that particular shoe on the other foot.

  60. Tony DePhillips

    Hi Mike and Christie,

    Well..that was a grand slam as far as I am concerned.

    Mike your quiet confidence really shines through and this was a major blow to the enemy.

    We are moving up the conditions and getting the truth out and it is unstoppable.

    Mike , Marty and all the people that actually are DOING things to bring out the truth are real heros and are turning the tide of the evil committed against the CofS. Mike you are making LRH very proud and wearing your hat as a Sea Org member to the fullest extent of what I think that means.


  61. OT VIII :

    What feeble attempt did Big P Broeker do to depose David Miscavige?

  62. Virgil Samms

    Here’s a rich one from Tommy’s 12 page response:

    “3. Defending Human Rights

    “The Church of Scientology has a long and proud tradition of supporting and defending human rights around the world. (except in the Sea Org where no one has rights)

    “In 1969, the Citizens Commission on Human Rights (CCHR) was established by the Church of Scientology in partnership with Dr Thomas Szasz, a renowned professor of psychiatry…”

    So this is where DM gets the idea of “Pavlovs Dog” treatment of Sea Org members. I knew Psychiatry had a hand in this.

  63. Good point Steve!

    Kudos to Bryan Seymore and company!

    Hopefully it will give Sweeny and company a bit of encouragement to finally air their piece!

  64. It makes me so happy to have Mike speak out. I resigned from the COS in 1984. I have known since 1983 that the COS was in the hands of an enemy. He lied about “The Proof” tape…that wasn’t LRH. Not the LRH I knew. I have been waiting for years for the next exodus, for those who love Scientology to wake up and realize that you can’t go free in a suppressive enviroment.
    Some few are finally taking action and delivering a blow aimed at where it belongs to be delivered.
    Thank you so much Mike Rinder; Marty Rathburn, Ann Scobee.
    You will always be welcome in Scientology (as differenciated from the Church) You have done what I could not finalize–expose the suppressiveness–more power to you.

  65. Mike: Wonderful interview. Concise, likable and real.

    Marty: Your comment about the 12 page dead agent rebuttal from OSA/Tommy Davis and of the obvious disappearance of LRH and pontification of David Miscavige enabled me to see the following:

    During a 3 week buddhist retreat, I spent a bit of time contemplating HOW might this “war” enfold between the established “Church” and the growing independent movement — and how could it evolve rather than just be yet another “coup” (although clearly no one, least of all Marty is attempting a coup). Coups so clearly failures throughout history.

    How indeed COULD the legacy of LRH continue?

    And dm answered it. HE is now Scientology.

    OK then David Miscavige, so be it. Keep it. Take it. Take the buildings and whomever at THIS point wants to stay with you. Those who stay are YET not open enough to be able to leave.

    Clearly we have seen the failure of valid, heartfelt family members doing “welfare checks” at Int only to have the
    SO member swear how happy they are. Even Heber, bless him, while in LA to visit his son … could have said —
    please call the police.

    In my opinion and from my own experience, I left when I had no choice. My own eternity, which I clearly believed was held by Scientology, at a point became LESS important than my actual living life.

    I posit that the same was true for Marty. For Mike. And for others. At some point each had an epiphany. “What good is my eternity, if I can’t EVEN be alive RIGHT NOW?”

    And so with enormous fear we left. Stepped into an unknown void, only to find ourselves.

    In any case, I applaud heartily the courage and patience and warrior-like determination of those who have come forward. Continuing to expose the human rights abuses of David Miscavige and his minions is paramount.

    But reform. It won’t happen. (IMHO)

    Besides — LRH was a man of the times and his legacy, IMHO, is one that would continue OF the times.

    The times call for new Logos (Steve Hall’s independent LOGO is FAB)– for new leaders — for new renewed understanding based on a true movement of compassion and understanding. Built by those who have been through the fire, through the dark side and have stepped forward into the lightness of being.

    Let Miscavige keep Scientology, his buildings and his few members. More will leave.

    And build something, call it something different — embrace all that LRH would want, discard what has proven not to work (RPF, subjugating someones free will by enforced rules etc)

    Marty and Mike have started something which cannot be stopped. It is the yearning we all have to connect to others by recognizing that we are not all that different, that we are indeed our brothers keeper.

    Even dm will need a place to come to —- someday.

    I missed you all while on retreat.


  66. martyrathbun09

    WH, we missed you too. What a sum up. Beautiful.

  67. Thanks a lot Mike it’s a great show.

  68. Unfortunately for dm, everytime he sends a videographer to record meetings such as these, the guy gets an earful of dm’s crimes and gets a little hatting on how the c of m conducts its business.
    Without even speaking derogatorily to him about his employer Mike gets the word out about the criminal organization on a whole other set of comm lines.

  69. Mike, your face appears more relaxed than it has in years.

    And that ending bit with the camera man was priceless.

  70. ‘Why does DM refuse to go on camera and say, “I never hit anyone!”’

    I’m sure a lot of people here would agree with me when I say that DM doesn’t have his TR’s in.

    Give him credit for this, at least he’s smart enough to know that if he went on tv to answer these charges, it would be a major disaster.

    Isn’t it interesting in the latest Freedom Magazine, the Church claims that DM’s interview with the SP Times undid all the bad PR created by Marty and Mike, et al? Ok, so if he was so effective, why not come out and simply “handle” all the bad PR out there now?

    Oh, that’s right, only Larry King is capable of interviewing DM. Funny that they pick the interviewer whose greatest claim to fame is asking softball questions . . .

  71. Thanks a lot Mike – another huge step on taking Miscavige down for good!


  72. WH

    Welcome back. Good to hear that melodic voice again.


  73. All they can do is present a worn-out logical fallacy: “the Church is expanding, therefore the leadership cannot be corrupt and abusive.” Anyone can see through that sort of “logic.” Even if it were true, it doesn’t make any sense. And it’s not even true – their so-called “expansion” cannot be found anywhere but in their own press releases. You can look in vain for any independent corroboration of all of this wonderful and overwhelming “expansion.”

  74. Mike-
    Thank you for an incredible and professional job, and for putting the truth out. I am wading throught the “official church response” and also getting so far a mild headache trying to add up the number of pamphlets distributed, the square footage of each new church times the number of video impressions….Seriously – what you and everyone here is doing is so incredibly valuable at preserving LRH tech, and I applaud your courage. The truth wins out always.

  75. Awesome – could not be better said.
    Thank you,

  76. ΘTater/GaryLerner


    When a truth is being told by someone who knows the difference between what is true and what is false, that person does not show fear or regret or shame. They show a calmness of spirit. No vagueness or misdirection. Just an awareness of what should be voiced and not withheld.

    No one is perfect but their worth is observed as an asset to others and civilization by the type of honesty and integrity they exude. By their efforts to help the survival of others and that civilization.

    By the “observations” of the people here and elsewhere you Mike Rinder are a true “assest” but more importantly a True Friend to mankind.

    The “Villagers” are behind you AND Marty because you do speak the truth.

    Thank You Both!!

    Love and ARC,

    For David Miscabagehead:

    An old Hungarian proverb: “If one person calls you a horse— laugh at him. If a second person calls you a horse— think about it. If a third person calls you a horse— buy a saddle.”

    You and every one that supports you, DM, are living in a stable. Pick out your favorite hand-tooled, silver inlaid saddle and get your jockey boy Tom Cruise and ride off into the sunset.

    Waving Bye,

    ΘTater/Gary (one of your villagers)

  77. PlainOldThetan



    I was getting apprehensive anticipating that DM’s counter-campaign would intimidate those involved in this interview. I am glad to see they didn’t. I am also glad to see that your demeanor and attitude during the interview was one of professionalism and straight-shooting.

  78. John Peeler

    Great questions OTVIII and Sinar.

    And BTW Mike, I really liked your debut. Sounds like there’s a lot more to come too. DM must be shitting bricks and tripled his scotch intake. 🙂

    Another question that should be asked though is how was it that a long-term, whole track suppressive, like the high-school-dropout Miscavige, was able to infiltrate, dismantle and take complete control of THE group with the most powerful technology in all the broad universe, and right under the noses of the foremost professionals, authorities and protectors of this technology?

    Is it that despite “having the correct technology” nobody bothered to apply it? Just out-KSW by the whole shebang?

    I’m surprised that there wasn’t at least one auditor or C/S, or even EO somewhere down the line who had this clown on the meter and went WTF? (sirens going off in the BG). This guy at the very least needs some serious ethics and case handling before we send him up to work next to the old man. His TA readings should have at least tipped someone off. Did the guy have a fat ethics file? Was he connected to or the cause of constant flaps and Hill 10’s? Shit, J&D?

    Or, like Terl, was it leverage?

    LRH worked with Miscavige for quite some time as well. I wonder what his impressions of DM were? Anyone know? Maybe that could be the subject of another thread.

    Sorry, my “past-life” inner MAA says that the facts don’t jibe and that there are quite a few strings that need to be pulled.

    BTW, please don’t take this as 1.1, it’s just my swinish suspicion towards some really obvious and basic out-points.

  79. Sinar,
    One watches the segment then reads the response. The ‘speech’ is utterly non sequitur.

    “David Miscavige choked a staff member.”

    “Look at the square footage of Pasadena org.”


    The technical definition of ‘communication lag’ and how long it takes includes a SEQUITUR response.

  80. Ne,
    Spot on.

  81. Splog actually with the tech admin personnell ratio per policy, ten auditors isn’t minimum LRH standards with a 250 man org. That can’t be right. I don’t remember what it is 3 admin/1 tech personell? Besides C/S’s and some other posts the rest are auditors. The tech/admin ratio in the EUS for years before I was there and all the time I was there was always too many admin, can’t remember specifics though. The top five orgs had maybe 2 auditors on average. Probably most of the orgs had 0,1, or 2, but to be honest I never paid that much attention to that stat so take it for what it’s worth. It’s what I sort-of-observed was the scene up to 04′. I’m definitely not far off.
    If we were back in 1990 and taking a guess about the future with 1990 stats, we would have thought even only 5 auditors per org on average would be bordering a non-e trend flap by 2004. The momentum was there and it was going to get exponential.

  82. Victoria,
    That was an outstanding communication. Thank you.

  83. George,
    Wow! Absolutely wow!

  84. Mike, Thank you for standing up and communicating the truth.

    All people need to do is look. And the world does not have to look far to see major outpoints.

    The show did a good job of platforming in full view the videocam minions dispatched on the whim and fancy of David Miscavige to trail and film people.

    Does Miscavige squander millions of dollars of member funds to enlarge photo closeups of people so he can say “A-HAH! I knew it! That person has pores on their skin.”

    Even if a person has skin without pores, the next budget expense of the black ops is to Photoshop the equivalent of horns and mustaches on whistleblowers.

    The attempts of David Miscavige to silence by slander are by now like Peter crying wolf, the public is aware of his tactics. Thanks to this show for documenting more of it.

    These outpoints are the tip of the scam.

    That scam has hijacked Scientology and should not be allowed to call itself such.

    I have personally been looking up, and have seen — in print — substantial alterations and omissions from the writings of L. Ron Hubbard and the pasteurized version being held hostage, by which people only get a glimmer of the joy and freedom possible with the tools developed by Hubbard.

    The only was this is relevant is not because of an individual — although as a creator, I highly respect genius and work of others. It is most relevant and vitally important for the truth of the matter: 1) what is possible with the technology in and of itself, applied by individuals and unconstrained by personal agendas.

    David Miscavige is using the work and genius of the Scientology creator, Hubbard, and the work of those dedicated to an attainable ideal for humankind — in the lowest form of chicanery and betrayal. DM hides behind this to pull strings for one thing: his own personal agenda — an agenda that is not only injurious to society and millions of people, but is highly questionable in its sanity, responsibility and legality in a court of law.

    Mike Rinder, I salute you. Christie, Amy, and all dedicated to achievable civilization and evolution of humankind, I salute you.

    Marty, thank you for this blog, and thank you for giving me back Scientology.

  85. I’ve posted this before, but being an ex course sup, I figure number of times over equals certainty:

    “Occasionally you’ll find a scene wherein a person’s or area’s PR is greater to him than his production – PR, personal PR, means more than
    production. And that is a characteristic of a suppressive. He’ll fog the situation up with big PR about how good it is so it can’t be
    (Ref: HCO PL 15 Mar 77R “DATA SERIES 41R”)

  86. Mike, Finally you speak! It was brilliant and very very well done! I hope the BBC interviews will come soon…. Jan

  87. Thank you for the interview.

    Mike, it seems only appropriate to say this here: whatever hand you may have had in the fair gaming of me in 1994 and 1995, however indirect: I forgive you and anyone else who took part and is now out.

  88. Nice to see you back, WH!

    ” Neither fire nor wind, birth nor death can erase our good deeds.” Buddha”

  89. Thought Provoking


    That was outstanding!

    I am glad that you were able to talk about DM’s extravagant lifestyle, the misuse of church donations as well as the stalking of your movements by the church.

    I think it was great that they used footage from other programs as well. It invites those who are concerned about the direction the church is going in to look further at more interviews from the independents.

    Thank you for making this happen.

  90. Impartial English Girl

    And quite right too. I was extremely impressed by the quality of this piece – and also with Mr. Rinder’s eloquent and moderate testimony. There stands grace and dignity – even accounting for whatever actions he may have been co-erced into undertaking in past years. Like you, Mr. Rathbun, I daresay Mr. Rinder is by no means an unimpeachable individual: but what you are saying; doing; writing and supporting in the here and now, in my view, atones for any past slights you may have perpetrated. You are very, very brave in a world where it is (sadly) becoming increasingly easy to do nothing and ‘turn a blind eye’.

    Very, very brave; the lot of you. Not like certain others, who hide, squealing, behind mountainous “litigation”.

    P.S. Has Mrs. Rathbun forgiven you totally for New Orleans yet, or are you still relegated to the sofa? 😉

  91. >All they can do is present a worn-out logical fallacy: ‘the Church is expanding, therefore the leadership cannot be corrupt and abusive.’

    I don’t think it’s really aimed at anyone other than those remaining churchies who keep the money rolling in. “Look at all our new buildings! We’re expanding! DM is UPSTAT!” is PR fluff for “File these complaints with a yawn”; ie. “ignore the SPs reporting on an upstat”, or just simply “DON’T LOOK!”

    *APPARENCY, 1**. noun, something that seems to be, that *appears** to be a certain way; something *appears** to be but is different from the way it looks. It is from the Latin, ~apparere~~, to *appear**. In Dianetics and Scientology it is used to mean something that looks one way but is, in actual fact, something else. “Gives an *apparency** of health” whereas it’s actually sick. (LRH Def. Notes) *2**. what *appears** to be as distinct from what actually is. (~FOT~~, p. 19)

    *ACTUAL**, that which is really true; that which exists despite all apparencies; that which underlies the way things seem to be; the way things really are. (~FOT~~, p. 20)

    Source: Dianetics & Scientology Technical Dictionary, by L. Ron Hubbard; Church of Scientology of California, 1975.

  92. John,
    Here’s some info for your string pull. My ex-wife unequivocably said that DM’s head was moving to the chopping block just prior to LRH’s death.

    He was not happy that ‘All Clear’ was anything but and the Added Time on it was apparent.

    As to the indicators present before hand, the Gang of Five article on Scn Cult mentions Dede’s incident and the set up to have him Sec Checked by D Mayo, and the results: Dede removed, D Mayo removed.

    In terms of SPs/evil, well, this guy Miscavige is good at what he does. Really good. He’s obviously had practice. In other words, your inner MAA is looking at the consummate professional prick in David Miscavige. This ain’t no ‘late for muster’ cycle. This is something else entirely.

  93. Well, for those of us that are still in the Church, let me just say this – we have our seat belts fastened.

  94. Victoria – brilliant!

    MJR – You always impressed me, even when you were shilling for the dark side you always came across extremely well and credible.
    Thank you for your courage and confront now because your credibility will have a huge impact.
    I doubt many people can really appreciate what its like to make yourself a prime target of a psychopath with a billion dollars at his disposal.
    Again, thank you!

  95. Fellow Traveller

    You’re making me cry, Deidre, and I am supposed to be a big boy!

    The ability to handle the effects of past transgressions and get on with one’s life is a key factor in my affinity for LRH’s legacy. That ability allows one to get his code of honor back in. It allows one to rise above an avid craving from a humanoid group. It truly allows one to help travel, even pave, the road to truth.

    And here you are demonstrating that very quality.

    God I love you for that.

    Bruce Pratt

  96. Good TV Interview, What on earth did the COS think sending an instand stick-on cameraman of their own.

    Everybody in the world is going to think . Yikes that’s creepy.


  97. Anybody stupid here ? Then – and only then – will you fall for this 12 page piece of propaganda.

    I’ve seen this all before : in war propaganda. From Hitler to Mao Ze Dong, from Fidel Castro to G.W.Bush junior. They did it, or had their people doing it.

    The strategy : let your wins sparkle and withhold the losses.

    Some examples :

    The sparkling win : “over 8500 churches, missions, groups …”

    The withhold : number of people involved. And locations. ( with some money you can expand ANYTHING the 3rd world ).

    The sparkling win : “70 buildings aquired”.

    The withhold : how many buildings were sold ? Or closed ?

    The sparkling win : “more than 3.2 million square feet under construction …”

    The withhold : how many of these will be empty – lacking people – after the buildings are put into use ?

    etc. etc.

    The sparkling anti-drug wins seem great. Are there any Narconon-related withholds ? You betcha. Here are just a few :

    … several Narconon staff were put to court for threatening people ( probably for some heavy “8 C” ).

    … one Narconon director died, because he wasn’t brought to a hospital in time ( remember Lisa McPherson ? ).

    … narconon patients have also died because they didn’t get medical treatment.

    … a number of Narconons have been closed. Some for legal reasons. This was never promoted to Scientology members.

    … after narconon was established for more that 15 years in a country, they had the chance to present their successes to a judge. But they couldn’t present a single person who had remained drug free !

    … and someone who had returned from the Freewhince told me ( and asked me to withhold it from others ) : a narconon director had been to that ship for some event, and suddenly he was missing. Finally he was found – arrested in the dark drug world of a Caribic island. I was told it took quite some effort to keep the police chief from being disaffected.

    But maybe all this doesn’t matter, because the statistics were UP and the expansion “unprecedented” … LOL

  98. Beautiful Mike. I salute you, Christie and Amy. If you are a barista, you surely served up a quintuple espresso to DM this morning. Wakey wakey Davey! More coming as I think you still have a lot of credit remaining on you Starbucks card.

  99. The funniest part of the interview was Mike’s response:

    “Unnaturally extremely close.” I couldn’t stop laughing.

    And boy I hope TC wakes up and smells the coffee and realizes that his whole jumping on a couch is nothing like his positioning with David Miscavige in terms of detriment to his career.

    Thank you Mike for this interview!

  100. Correction: baristo.

  101. Fellow Traveller

    Might I add thank you to our incredibly competent 3rd and 4th dynamic auditors and c/ses. You guys are phenomenal.

    I ain’t seen the show yet, so have not been able to comment on anything but the effects. Whooooweeee!


  102. Congratulations Mike Rinder.
    Flawless presentation. Credible. Honest. Believable. You have the presence, you have the truth.

    The Tommy Davis “Church” response was laughable.

    DM was strangling Mike Rinder.
    The response is “we opened a new building in Pasadena !”

    Beyond non sequitur. They are still defending the accusations of *violence* with the rebuttal that they have expanded their Real Estate !!! New glitzy buildings bought by ripping off the public for donations and milking them for the money.

    Anyway, Mike, even others who have criticized you and Marty for a while, have saluted you and come around, I will send you some private Email received.


  103. DFB aka Dfb99

    I want to know the stats of Class V Orgs.

    In the last ten years, how many auditors have been trained up to the level of the org?

    How many clears produced?

    How many auditors in training?

    Internships completed?

    Major grade chart actions completed?

    Etc, etc.

    I know at my org you dont even need two hands to count this stuff. My org was one of the first orgs, is in one of the largest cities in the US and used to be a big org “back in the day” (pre-COB).

  104. Tom,
    Thanks for the Cse Sup hat and repetition of the materials per the Sup’s Code, enough times for us to get a good reality. Much thanks as that DS reference is perfect and applicable.

  105. Michael,
    I enjoy thoroughly, whatever you post.

    Too cool.

  106. Incredible job Mike and very well worth the wait!

  107. UnluckyPatron

    Awesome interview. Good job!

  108. DLC,
    “I doubt many people can really appreciate what its like to make yourself a prime target of a psychopath with a billion dollars at his disposal.”

    Hear, hear.

  109. I’m with you B. Many thanks Deirdre for releasing that much yuck in this world with your compassion and grace.

  110. DFB aka Dfb99

    It seems criminal. I have this concept of someone who wants to be a big power player in life, yet for whatever reason cant or wont do it the right way, so he creates a false shell of PR around himself. He wants to be a shining god among men, but he doesnt care if he screws things up for everybody else along the way.
    He’s the ultimate power grabber. While a guy like Heber is looking at things and trying to do the right thing, DM doing a bunch of stuff to protect himeself and grab more power. It’s just a different way of thinking and decent, honest men are not expecting someone to be like that.

  111. Thought Provoking

    Great post, WH, I concur!

    Welcome back!

  112. Snicks,
    For those of you still in the Church, take the seatbelts off is my advice. And given with ARC.

    Here’s the R. First, I’m glad you are still an active Scientologist, no matter where you are. Second, life is an all out over the ramparts howling charge if you actually are going to live it. ‘Safety’, i.e. seatbelts, are fine on the road, but in life, it’s just part of the theta trap of MEST. What the hell is there to be ‘safe’ about when you are an Infinity of creation and anything you might ‘lose’ can be created again?


    p.s. I DO understand you are expressing something positive here. I’m just abusing it to make my point 🙂

  113. CD,
    Look at it this way, for another view: the camera guy started out denying anything to do with DM’s ‘church’ and ended up in communication with the reporter to make a fantastic last bit.

    It was sooooo apparent, in the presence of my buddies, Mike, Christie et al, that the sphere of theta spread and influenced all so that as a parting comm, two beings who could have been opposed were actually sharing a light laugh. THAT is going to rattle DM as much as anything.

    Damn, it’s so good to see that kind of power in play.

  114. Han,
    I have a personal win from Narconon. A friend, non-Scientologist and no idea I was one, had a niece under the adverse effects of heavy street drugs.

    Her parents, despite the reputation for being somehwhat nasty, researched on their own the effectiveness of drug rehab programs on the Interweb. Their conclusion; Narconon was the best bet.

    I then got a call from the friend asking me if I knew anything about this program. I was referred to as I’m outspoken, some would say, obnoxiously so, as an anti-drug guy, and they wanted to know if I knew about Narconon.

    I didn’t tell them I was a Scientologist (then) but I did tell them what I knew and that was Narconon was a good program and the best I could recommend. Not foolproof mind you, but the best I could recommend.

    This girl is drug free and winning in life following her program. She did it at one of the sites in Quebec that is ‘under fire’ too. So, there you go.

    I appreciate your comments, but on this one, well, I recommend, without ANY reservation, Narconon to any suffering that monkey on their back of drugs.

  115. JB,
    Methinks Davey forgot to grab that turkey’s wings before he sliced the throat 🙂

    I wonder if he’ll take the measures recommended in that case.

    Oh yeah. Just a poundin’ it down. Well, up too.

  116. Excellent Mike! Hope to see and hear more from you. You are highly appreciated and thanked for what you are doing. Thanks to ALL the ex staff who are coming forward.

  117. No doubt DM will see conspiracy in every smile.

  118. Watching Eyes

    I doubt Cruise will ever wake up. Personally, he doesn’t strike me as bright enough to see what’s really going on with the dwarf. He couldn’t have picked a worse person to position himself with.

    When word gets out widely about the POW’s aka slaves aka RPF staff members, doing work for Cruise, he won’t be able to give away tickets to his movies.

  119. Hey Jim,

    Thanks for that, and I’ll definitely read Gang of Five’s article about this. I know about Miscavige removing Dede and Mayo, and Jesse Prince wrote a bit about this in his affidavit. It just seems completely odd that the group allowed him to move up and have this much power in the first place.

    If his head was on the chopping block just prior to LRH’s death, how was it that just after death, he was able to knock down Big P and your ex wife? What was the deal with that? Why did they step down and allow the take over? Did DM have some sort of leverage over Pat and Annie? For example, was the LO issue authorized by LRH or was it really a forgery as DM claimed it was? If it WAS a forgery, how did he know and who tipped him off? The LO issue was the LAST message from LRH to staff and public in regards to his death and who was supposed to take over running things. DM cancelling it leaves a giant hole – no last words from LRH at all and making the CoS “up for grabs.”

    That’s really the major out-point.

  120. Bunkai,
    Yep, that ending bit is something we agree on. Priceless.

  121. Diana and her daughter are seemingly happy to be behind the DM curtain – don’t quite understand your communication and who or what’s supposed to be done exactly?

  122. An enjoyable read WH

    “keep what works get rid of what holds you back”

    What will the End game concise of I wonder.


  123. That’s great Mr Italy, another bit of good news! It’s great to spread a job well done by the PR pro.

  124. I’m sure the CoS was/is hoping for another “exploding tomato” like they got with John Sweeny.

    Ironically, they now have Mike exposing the actual con that Tommy Davis pulled with regard to Sweeny (i.e. actively trying to enrage him off-camera).

  125. Joe Pendleton

    Amen Windhorse, Amen. Wonderfully stated. I left for the same reason (eternity/life).

    Thank you.

  126. Theo Sismanides

    Mike, great interview, a big thank you from Greece! For your persistence, ethics, courage.

    David Miscavige for almost three decades now has been tampering with Source. However in the last few years he has lost and is losing daily his best people who don’t buy it anymore that he can represent Source really.

    For those still inside and remaining silent spectators of Scientology being altered into the transvestite version of Miscavige he is going to play it Source from all the indicators we have.

    The only hope for the truth about Source and what Scientology really is remains with us and what you said with Senator Xenophon in front of the camera. We represent Scientology for what it really is.

    Thanks again.

  127. Does DM shout at the TV ? Will some poor viewing device meet its end.

    I wonder. Anybody see DM watch news he disagreed with ?

  128. That was brilliant Mike (and Christie and Amy)! It was great to finally see you on camera, Mike, making these statements for all the world to see.

    I hope the BBC one is even longer and more intense.

    Is there any chance that Anderson Cooper or CNN will be getting an interview?

  129. Fantastic interview, Mike!
    Each time I was around DM, as a volunteer helping at events, or as public on OT 7, I saw him getting the red carpet treatment, while his staff and even many celebrities were treated with~much~ less.

    Yes, I’d watched DM altering the tech starting with
    “The Command Channels of Scientology” in the last 80’s–where the tech became tiny on the page, and most of the “church” of Scientology became Management, in one form or another.

    Also, I was on OT 7 when the definition of F/N
    was changed! That was a *huge* upset to most of we auditors. Having been trained on the LRH Policy: “Are You Waiting for the Meter to Play Dixie?” (Anti ONLY using the meter, pro watching for indicators)..suddenly examiners were literally STARING at their meters! This was exactly the opposite of the Policy re Not Waiting for the Meter to Play Dixie.

    Congrats to the Aussies, too!~ Their persistence is fantastic, as is each person exposing the abuses of C of $.
    My best to all 🙂 Tory/Magoo

  130. I was thinking something similar, DFB.

    Mike, even though I had watched the Panorama piece a few months ago, seeing you there and in this new interview, it was like night and day. You look freer, happier, healthier now. I imagine you must feel the same way.

    (lol, it sounds like I’m saying you were ugly or hideous before. Don’t worry, that isn’t what I mean.)

  131. But Karen it was a really BIG building, bigger-er than the previous one!

  132. Thank-you Jim;)
    It’s was a bit more meaningful than my thong posts yesterday, but the laughter I think is what gets us through a lot of this.

  133. The problem is, the Church wants you to wrap those seatbelts around your eyes and ears.

    If you’re just a regular member, not OSA sent here to post — if they find out you’ve been here, you’ll be sent to Ethics, forced to donate money that should go to your mortgage, bills, kids or food, as well as beg and plead your way back into good graces. Most likely, that’s if you’re lucky. In all probability, you will be declared SP for posting two lines on a message board. Goodbye, family. Goodbye, friends.

    You deserve better.

  134. John,
    I want you to write to me on ‘backchannels’. I’ve got some more data for your string pull. You are asking the exact right questions. Write. I’ll give you what I can.

  135. The footage is priceless. At 2:33 in first video –
    Today Show Host: “Are you with the Church of Scientology?”
    Chris: “No! No. No.”
    costarring as evidence.

  136. Tommy Davis looks like a stark mad rabid dog in that video.
    John Sweeney’s reaction (incensed anger) is a normal response to that kind of psychotic intentional goading as Tommy Davis/DavidMiscavige were perpetrating.

  137. Brian Seymour, Mike Rinder and Nick Xenophon a bunch of Aussis showing their American friend Chriss the sites. Many footage taken to remember all the Joyfull moments together.

    The grown ups inviting Chriss to join and play with the big boys.

    Somewhere on this planett TV’s are flying and a lot of primal sounds are uttered.

    DM watch your blood pressure, think of your health.

  138. I sense John has though.

  139. Nightmares Getting Less

    Fox News with Bill O’Reilly would be awesome, would probably make Greta’s head roll!

  140. Snicks and all inside the walls of the fabricated sham temple.

    Get a copy of an LRH edition (1970 and pre) of Scientology 0-8, The Book of Basics.

    Go to page 40, and look up Item (25) of The Auditor’s Code AD 18:

    I promise to cooperate fully with the legal organizations of Dianetics and Scientology as developed by L. Ron Hubbard in safeguarding the ethical use and practice of the subject according to the basics of Standard tech.

    Get a current David Miscavige GAT (Gross Auditing Travesties) edition of the same title, go to the Auditor’s Code and look up that item.

    Hold the books side by side.
    What do you see?

    “as developed by L. Ron Hubbard” is gone, removed, deleted, not there in the sham Auditor’s Code.

  141. ΘTater/GaryLerner


    It’s good to have one of our more “Spirited” friends back!

    Love and Peace,


  142. Windhorse;

    You are indeed a wise sage!!!

    I hope the leaders of this Independent movement who come forward to implement all of your wise suggestions for survival of LRH tech.

  143. Mike Rinder, I salute you ,SIR!

  144. ΘTater/GaryLerner


    As a former ED of Narconon in Clearwater back in ’81 I know that the “correct” tech works when properly applied.


  145. WH
    “And build something, call it something different — embrace all that LRH would want, discard what has proven not to work (RPF, subjugating someones free will by enforced rules etc)”

    No rules just right eh? Like where we all go off in the woods and think about world peace because the tech doesn’t really work? How do you get people trained and in session without orgs, they just volunteer themselves because we’re all allready enlightened but we don’t know it? How do you form up the policing arm going around ensuring these small groups don’t get big and start to manage each other? You can’t have a police group because that’s a group so you have to be the worlds lone enforcer?

    What about when inevitably and immediately when a new group forms which is just as bad, but they subscribe to a huge amount of rainbow/world peace bullshit for a management system where only chaos reigns supreme for all time!

    And WH, how does reform not happen? You keep saying this but you never give specifics. What can’t change? Nothing? How do you just start over? Do you think staff and SO and public are going to cognite that we don’t need a “military environment” because that’s a natural law and the truth will always prevail on that. I think part of ethics is acknowledging what can happen and if it should happen and being more specific about how it’s all hopeless so lets blow everything up and then everyone will cognite like you have. Can you answer some of this?

  146. Freedom Fighters

    Of all days to have to work late . . .

    Great interview!! Thank you for doing this, Mike!!

    The little church camera crew is downright comical. Who the heck sends around a camera crew to stalk people who blow the whistle on them? Imagine if BP had people stalking and sticking video cameras into the faces of people bringing to light the number of wildlife being destroyed by their oil spill. People would be in an uproar!

  147. Mike Lemeron


    This is absolutely great. Really clear, concise truth. Thank you for all the work you and Marty are doing.

    David Miscavige is a violent person and I have seen and experienced it for myself and I have subjective reality. I used to do lighting for the Int events and I personally saw David Miscavige be very rude, invalidating and condescending toward the other speakers.

    Years prior to that I was his table server at meals with other executives – long before he assumed his “COB” title. One day, during dinner, he followed me into the kitchen and pushed me up against a wall because he thought I was being rude. I have seen him being both physically verbally abusive on different occasions during the nearly 21 years I was around him and his area.

    Anyone saying David Miscavige is not violent and has not committed violent acts on others is a complete liar or a dupe.

    Thanks again, Mike, for bringing the truth into the light.

  148. martyrathbun09

    Boyd, I think you’d understand her a lot better if you carefully read the Tao Te Ching. If you think that is “off Source”, I invite you to listen the Phoenix Lectures. The old man himself says what we are striving for was best stated in that book.

  149. Yes George, that was one of the reasons why I did not leave earlier. Another reason was the SO environment really makes you think that those who have left are letting down the entire human race. And if you leave, it means you’re a “degraded being”. Who wants to have that label?

    Also, the production demand is such that often you don’t even have the time to think about leaving. And when you finally had enough courage to tell that group to go to hell and leave, 20 years have gone by.

    (my own experience)

  150. rory Medford

    Now thats Amore!!!! Good job Mike, the piece was so awesome and very very professional and best of all believable. You were cool as a cucumber.

    You are one courageous cat!!

    Thanks for sticking your neck out

  151. Bam.


  152. Tory-

    I’ve so looked forward to your comment(s). There are so many folks I admire here that I find myself lost for words sometimes. Yet here I am about to bare some soul because I feel safe. The compliment is yours and everyone elses. With regards to today’s events I’ve already paid my respects elsewhere. Never-the-less they’ve provided the forum and venue. I bow. I am humbled.

    There’s something I’m struggling with communicating about with regards to a long term viewpoint that goes back to the late ’40’s, 1949 Hollywood specifically. By Phoenix ’52 to ‘3 it was so incredibly awesome it (auditing) was mind blowing- in a both a literal and figurative sense. I have never been the same. Grateful beyond any possible words.

    I know what I know. And part of that is that Ron was a damn good guy. And that’s putting it mildly. There are no superlatives that can apply.

    When I scan the history of this subject I cannot help to feel saddened by the usurpation that has taken place. In fact my venom sacks feel fully loaded. Like a black mamba I want to strike. Target located. Because, can’t everyone have this- the gains?

    I’ve not been loaded with a lot of the “normal” crap that goes around my (our) former church. I just left quietly and quite noisily all at the same time circa 1995. A dichotomy. Frankly I looked at the scene and queried to myself “How much of a shit sandwich should one be required to swallow”. And you’re not going to take anyone I love with you.

    By way of some background the first time I walked into the mission in Cincinnati with this identity where Dan Polk and his wife Gail were mission holders I thought “Well this ain’t how Ron would have run it but these folks are okay”. As a point- I wasn’t body routed. I read DMSMH in a sitting. But I didn’t want Dianetics; I wanted the “good” stuff- Scientology.

    Then came the blow up in the early 80’s and Kevin and Barb (Jones) Wilson took the helm at the mission and frankly I don’t know what happened after that here in Cincinnati. I, though, kept tabs on the decline and misery.

    So where am I going with this? Simply this:

    I’ve got some track on our church. Like the founding. In southern California. And New Jersey. Etc.

    And I’ve probably got more bypassed charge that can possibly be registered on a custom special one off Mark “12” meter signed and autographed by the current feckless “leader”.

    And my conclusion is this: It is now FUBAR.

    It will be the independent field who will carry the torch and get the job done. Ultimately.

    I just wish I had done more to prevent this. I’m sorry. Too many times I just walked away. A survival mechanism?

    But tomorrow’s another day. And here we are.

    Thanks for the ear and love to all you good people,

    Tom Gallagher

  153. Boyd H,
    You must know I love and respect you, and in that vein, take Marty’s advice.

  154. TheEmperorIsNaked

    Really good questions John. This stuff is going to have to get on ‘frontchannels’ before too long. These aren’t idle questions and John ain’t the only one having them.

  155. For those who don’t know, Pat is a class VIII who, with her husband has been successfully delivering LRH tech in the independent field for decades. She was a major inspiration to me when I decided to go free.

  156. Jim,

    Love ya’ dude. Just Me said you too had fun at the party. Said you were as intense in person as here. Feel free to email.

    Got to get to bed. Taking the family to the Florida Panhandle for the week.


  157. Reading Tommy’s response, made me think it was pretty lackluster, by past standards, Tommy’s own past standards, and my conclusion is Tommy sees the writing on the wall for himself.

    Namely, Tommy sees his time might come, and DM might turn on Tommy most decidedly.

    The continuing tragedy is DM dumps on ALL around him.

    He has no one else to blame, and where’s Shelly Miscavige, for that matter?

    Tommy will soon be looking more sheepish, because he really has now met his match, with Mike now telling the truth about Tommy, and now Tommy looks like he’s going to have to deal with DM’s wrath directed his way.

    DM just cannot validate people. DM’s dwindling spiral includes dumping on everyone, and Tommy’s next, and I think from this letter, I sense Tommy knows it, and that’s why Tommy’s letter reads like a cut and paste job, and nothing convincing or sincere about it.

    Thankyou Mike Rinder for going public.

    I imagine a lot more was said by Mike which didn’t make it into the show.

    What did get through was so good.

    The truth seems to be leaking out faster, each decade, and now, I think this decade, from 200-2010 with Marty and Mike going public, has thus been the best in terms of people “coming out” and having an impact BACK on the abuses.

    I hope the BBC show airs someday.

    It would be nice to hear all the other things Mike said, which didn’t air.

  158. Another Layer


    I, too, appreciate your comments … but have a “however” based on an excellent friendship. A wonderful man, Bill Atlas, rode his motorcycle into Scientology via Narconon in the mid 70’s, bringing with him his then-wife. Both had been drug addicts and with Narconon they turned their lives around. Sad to say, he dropped his body far too young. He was proud of the Narconon program, disseminated it wherever he could, and remained drug free. The church did not treat him kindly because of his criminal record, but he never wavered in his loyalty to LRH and Narconon. Always inspiring, he maintained his friendships, regardless. Plus, he had this deep, sweet voice and he loved to sing the blues.

    Not to say that Narconon hasn’t had its problems, but I have surely seen the good side of that program and would still recommend it.

  159. I looked in the 1988 version and the 1970 version.
    It’s true.

  160. God, that is chilling to see.

  161. Thought Provoking


    Your comment hit home to me. I too walked away quietly and yes it was a survival mechanism. Do I wish that I had been more couragous at the time, sure.
    The way the church is currently set up, if you decide to walk, you do it alone. It wasn’t always that way. LRH actually talked about people coming and going in Scientology sort of a reach and withdraw of the subject, can’t remember which lecture but it was on one of the congresses.

    Out here, we are not alone. For the first time, we have successfuly beaten the automatic isolation enforced on anyone who feels that staying in the church is a violation of their personal integrity.

    But, one thing that is very real to me today is that Ron’s legacy is alive because of the many people like yourself who experienced the true magic of the tech and never gave up on it completely. There may have been times when it appeared to be lost because of what we witnessed in the church but it just isn’t so.

    Look around at the people who post on this blog. Each one of them has at some point in their life/lives has experienced actual Scientology and by their communication and support they are actively ensuring the future survival of the tech. This has been a HUGE learning experience for me and I know that I am a stronger being because of it, probably for you as well, I think.

    I have always liked your postings and am glad you shared these thoughts with us, here, today.

    Yes, the church is FUBAR but Scientology lives strong, here, outside of the church. We are the ones who will bring it back to its full glory for all to benefit from.

  162. It’s true, Jim. I did say you were intense. I also said you were handsome beyond description.

    Just Me.

  163. The response was pathetic, a desperate move by individuals who know they have no moves left.

    Frankly, seeing the interview, and reading the C of S response, actually in my mind amplifies the veracity of what Mike said in the interview. It is like putting something short next to something tall, making the tall thing look even taller.

  164. Thanks to everyone for their kind words and acknowledgements. I do what I believe is right. And I do my best to tell the truth and say what I feel is important to communicate to the audience.

    There is a lot more filmed than you ever see on any show. This is what you have little control over as the producer of the show (in this case Bryan Seymour is correspondent and producer/editor) can pick and choose and edit whatever they have. Bryan, within the parameters of what will air on Today Tonight to keep it competetive, did a good job of selecting and putting together a piece. He kept his word and was fun to work with. There may be more pieces coming, depending on the ratings of this show.

    Again, thank you all for your support.

  165. Chris Black


    Just wanted to extend recognition and a hearty acknowledgement for doing what you did, have done, and will do. It’s downright Code of Honor, man! Kudos!


  166. The reference from Jim Logan re; The Gang of Five, is very, very enlightening. It should be a must-read for everyone here.

  167. Another Layer

    Thank you, Mr. Rinder. That interview was a joy to behold! I hope your BBC footage is aired, and soon.

    You look completely at ease these days. You are real, informed, and could hold your own in any boardroom, or courtroom for that matter. And, you showed such compassion for your ex-wife and children in explaining their behavior.

    On the other hand, Tommy Davis has a pinched, two-dimensional quality—like a boardwalk cutout, with an endless loop of spew frantically playing behind the mouth-hole. Actually, the church spokesmen/women on AC360 had that same quality as well. No professionalism, no compassion, no life. As if, underneath it all, they really didn’t want to be there.

    Which begs the point … who has more credibility to the viewer? Obvious liars presented by the church? Or the men and women who tell all, even though it costs them dearly? Once again, the church not only loses, but creates its own horrible PR.

    Thank you again for being the calm voice of reason.

    And thank you, Marty, for all you are doing to make this blog such a carrier wave for freedom.

  168. Mike, I have a question …

    In your statements while you were the spokesperson of the CofS, you knew you were often giving false and misleading responses to the public. As you commented on in the interview, what choices did you have?

    Even when I disagreed with what you were doing, even upset to some extent that you were doing it, I have always felt that you were a person of high integrity. Somehow that always seemed to come through, and I often wondered what kind of toll doing what you ‘had to do’ had on you?

    What did you do to handle it? A person of integrity can’t just shrug it off. It had to hurt, there had to be scars. .

    How did you handle that? Sessions … scotch … how? Or is it still there, needing to be addressed?


  169. DFB aka Dfb99

    They keep doing that. Their long winded writeups are so confusing that they cant even keep track of timelines. Marty is “stripped of all power” and then a bit later on the page he is blamed for fouling up some major high level management responsibility. They did this twice in one writeup. And again with Mike here.

  170. Your humble servant

    Yes, it is indeed chilling! I can think of nothing more amazingly contemptible than brazenly writing LRH out of the Auditor’s Code!

    The technology that Ron worked so incredibly tirelessly and brilliantly to record and preserve is now very seriously threatened by the reptile Miscavige!

    This only confirms what we have been told, that efforts to get LRH policy IN only gets one into trouble in the church.

  171. John Peeler

    Like my uncle says, “Stats are for losers.”

    It doesn’t matter how many yards your QB throws for, or how many yards your Running Back adds to the game. If you’re not winning games or winning Super Bowls, who the f… cares? Just like the CoS reply reads.

  172. Jim, I audited at Narconon for several years in LA. It was an incredible experience, a true eye opener.

    One of my biggest wins was this guy who was on Heroin for nearly 30 years, tried every program, every program, all to no success.

    When we were handling him, I was his auditor. What was remarkable was that he was so upset waiting for the somatics to hit, and they just weren’t hitting! Something was wrong! He was really concerned about it! Anyway, after three days of assists etc., he began to realize this was different, and he was changing. After another day or two, he was so happy, he would tell jokes and laugh and dance for no reason at all. He felt like a kid again.

    And, to really let you all know what kind of person he ‘was’, he ‘was’ a hit man for a major drug importing group in Seattle!

    You’ve never heard stuff in confessionals until you’ve done some at Narconon!! These were the guys everyone is scared of, these were the guys who had hit men after them, and here they were, telling me stuff that would get them executed if ever reported. Wild stuff!

    Anyway, a few months later he was finished with the program, and he had a job all lined up, felt like a kid again. The day he left, he was all in tears, and came over and gave me a great big hug and a kiss!

    That’s what the tech can do, how deep in can reach and pull someone up.

    I’ve audited over 10,000 hours, and without a doubt, the hours at Narconon were the most revealing.

  173. Jim,

    You got it exactly right. By the end of the trip Chris was our buddy. He apologized to us for harrassing us. Shook our hands, and was very chatty. Every time we saw him I waved at him, said “HI CHRIS!!” and he waved back and smiled. He couldn’t resist. So did the other video cameraman. I think we had a little too much fun with the PIs. 🙂


  174. Boyd: I have said and will continue to say that the EXISTING “Church” is dead. I believe Marty said it first.

    THAT “Church” cannot reform. It’s DEAD.

    Dead is dead.

    What can be built is something NEW based on the workable tenets/technology of LRH. His legacy IS NOT a DEAD Church.

    His legacy is ALIVE and VIBRANT.

    And will come from the hearts and souls of those former leaders and members of Scientology who have BECOME living embodiments of the essence of LRHs tech and admin.

    Who at their core understand that MAN IS BASICALLY GOOD and live this understanding.

    You cannot free a man by killing him. By beating him. By taking away his free will.

    Hate never dispelled hate. Perhaps that sounds like new age to you but alas, it was said 2500 years ago by the Buddha.

    And Boyd — apathy is one thing I’ve never been accused of — except obliquely now by you.

    You might try just shifting your viewpoint ever so slightly because a rigid point of view is in part what got us all into this soup. Just a slight shift …

    Or perhaps read a few recommended books —
    1) Tao Te Ching (it’s not long)
    2) Dharmmapada (it’s not long)
    3) The Shack

    All different philosophies. All arriving at the same place.

    Man is basically good.

    I look forward to meeting you someday. I’ll bet you’ll find we have much more in common, than your perceived differences and disagreements with me.


  175. TheEmperorIsNaked

    Veritas – yeah. That freaked me out too. I’ve never seen TR’s that bad. It looked psychotic. All the wierd mouth action around his gum or whatever it was. Super repulsive entheta.

    Just the kind of person you want fronting for your church. ????? WTF?

  176. John Peeler

    TEG, very true. However, JT has a dilemma to work out and deal with. The CoM has the scoop on a LOT of “tasty” info that the press would eat up and would possibly ruin his career “in his mind.” Facts not only known about by DM, auditors and C/Ses, but also details by people I know in LA who never had anything to do with Scientology EVER – based on their profession, workplace, etc…

    JT needs a friend. And one of you guys are IT.

  177. I have to agree with TheEmperorIsNaked, Jim. Why not share it with all of us?

  178. WH has a more nuanced understanding and so I oversimplified to get a response. Didn’t work I guess.

  179. Jim and Marty yes I’ll read it, re-re-read it that is.

  180. Seems to me he simply disconnected from the SP, and it did wonders.

  181. So glad to see you back windhorse. I missed you. I look forward to your posts.

  182. I haven’t been declared. But also they know I’d bring the websites to a comm ev, and L. Ron hubbard Way with a bullhorn permit.

  183. Snicks,

    Something to think about.
    After having been a Scientologist since my first comm course in 1969, I will tell you with confidence, having last been audited in the Church over 5 years ago, Standard Tech, is a thing of the past. Keep reading this and other sites and you will learn much.

    Many years ago I had the pleasure of being audited by a Cl XII that was trained by Ron on an L11 review at Flag and it was a thing of beauty. The most perfect auditing I ever. Floating TA’s, falling off the chair, blowing charge…the universe changing markedly in the infinity of each second. That is the miracle of what Ron discovered when applied correctly.

    Why would you stay in a car that is heading for a brick wall at 120 MPH?

  184. Very nice Veritas.

  185. Other changes shown by Aida Thomas of the Freezone Part 1 of 7.

  186. Mike,

    Thank you for the excellent first interview. You came across calm and truthful..and with a presence about you that gave the impression of certainty. I thought all in all the segment was extremely well done and informative.

    I’m sure it took a lot out of you to have to drudge up and confront all that mess you experienced over all those years in the C of S. You have my admiration…


  187. I love the interveiws…perfectly done, uptone, upbeat and REAL! I think the newsman picked excellent footage.
    Thanks for doing it.
    I won’t torture myself with reading the response now that I’ve read the comments.

  188. I think it’s because there’s still a few SO members in OSA.

  189. I could let you be in that viewpoint but for thruth sake I have to correct you. Szasz is Hardcore.

    Dr. Steve Wiseman Investigates Thomas Szasz Scientology [1/6]


    The man himself.

    By the way a disorder is not a disease nor is it a mental illness. He does a A=A=A

  190. @ Jim Logan / Gary Lerner / Another Layer :

    Sensible actions bring about good results. And I’m happy for every single being that got rid of drugs.

    But you can’t take results for granted if you step into a Narconon.

    There was a young Scientologist who somehow got into addiction and went to Narconon. After some time there he reportedly phoned his parents “it’s all about money” – and killed himself.

    When you look at the tech decay and stat pushes at the orgs today then you can’t expect something better at the Narconons, can you ?

  191. Wonderful! Thank you. Great piece!!

  192. “These aren’t idle questions and John ain’t the only one having them.”


  193. It is farcical that the spokesperson for an organisation that promotes “truth” and “freedom” is not actually free to tell the truth.

    “An Organization MUST answer people’s questions. This is the primary public complaint – that Scientologists in the Organization or out won’t answer directly questions asked about this or that. Understand it, answer it, make friends.” — LRH, HCOB 16 June 1957 PEOPLE’S QUESTIONS

  194. Teg,
    First off—-let me make this very clear (uh hum-no pun intended):
    I do not believe in regret–it’s a wasted usage of energy. You did what you did at the time you did, because that’s what was right for you, right? So why regret it? Could you have done more? EVERYONE could do more, every day, every second. Is that what matters? I don’t believe so, as concentrating on *that* just brings each person down…and thus less strong.

    If you live and use the tech, LRH speaks of living in the Now: Present time. That actually is a *huge* goal—and a gigantic win,once you achieve it. For me, I have been attacked for 10
    years now—but after about 2 years, I came into Present time, for real. It was the greatest gift I could have received. It took some looking to find myself, and understand it, but once I got it–I’ve never been the same since.

    We’re all on an adventure, as I see it. So find what’s most important in your course—where IS it you need to go? Maybe it’s helping a neighbor, perhaps there are some family hoping you’ll offer them a hand. I know, those sound so simple and possibly “worthless”–but if you could read the e-mails and PM’s I’ve received from people all over the world, thanking me, you’d get how just a few random acts of kindness can truly lead you to a joyous place.

    I got into Scientology to help others. That was my goal. Isn’t it ironic that I had to leave COS to actually be able to achieve that goal? It blows my mind, daily.

    What you all are doing here is fantastic! All I ask is that you always remember that this road wasn’t started by any of you, or me. There are people who years ago, all alone, began looking, talking, and creating this road OUT of the trap.
    Their stories are amazing, frightening, and filled with courage. Always remember them, please. I’ve sat with many of them, and after thanking them, I’ve helped wipe off their tears. These are warriors, too-many unacknowledged.

    There are also tons of critics who have spent years exposing the abuses of COS. Also, Anonymous—those fighting the Cult—are many good people who care. You may not agree with all of them, neither do I, but that’s Ok. Many have kind hearts and have helped a great amount of people have the strength to finally speak out.

    Keep in mind, OSA’s goal here on the Net is “Divide and Conquer”–so the less we do that, the better we are. My goal is connection–and inclusion vs. exclusion, which I found at the top of COS, on OT 7 there.

    Lastly, always congratulate yourself for having the courage to speak out, now, when it is SO important. Each person who does so is helping FAR more people than you can imagine.
    Make sure to pass on the links to both Marty and Mike’s shows (and Amy’s) as that will help tons more people, too.
    My thanks and love to you all 🙂

  195. Spike following this video.
    My email spam from the churches and Bridge Pubs spiked tremendously shortly after this video was posted.

    (My email address has been shared to Orgs all around the country. In fact, in the past I used to get sometimes 30-50 emails per day. I blocked the originating addresses, but new originating addresses would appear.)

  196. Jim Logan, you said, “David Miscavige is a whole track, long term, very convincing and very SUPPRESSIVE PERSON.
    You are not confronting this and so you are effect…”

    Jim, I so totally agree with you on this. What I see is that OSA has been shoved down the Org Board from where the old Guardian network was (regardless of the faults that were, and there is much more myth about that than fact).

    The old counter-intelligence function to “guard” Scientology from internal destruction by plants and/or suppressives seems to have been stripped from OSA. It is not the autonomous network with real power of its predecessor. OSA appears to me to be completely ineffectual. Its staff are too much under the thumb of the very one it ought to be going after. I would not look to OSA for salvation of Scientology these days.

    Mike’s interview is masterful and refreshing.

    I would say to David Miscavige: “Step down. Leave immediately. You are not qualified – not by training, not by case state, not by moral right, not by ethical altitude, not by visionary inspiration. You were NOT chosen by LRH. You are not the leader of Scientology. Leave now, and take your friends with you.”


  197. Too bad it had to come to this, where Scientology’s leaders can only freely speak publicly when they are ousted or driven out of the top ranks.

    When existing top members can be frank and open to the outside world, like Mike and Marty and all the others who’ve gone public, THEN Scientology will get over this communication problem.

    It’s like the only Scientologists with their Grade 0 in, are the ex members, ironically.

    I wish Heber could hear all this news.

    I hope all this last couple years of history of ex senior Scientology leaders speaking up makes a positive impact.

    I think of Science of Survival how theta attacks MEST, gets enturbulated, retreats, heals up, and re-attacks MEST, tries to do good things, gets enturbulated again, in longer cycles.

    Well, this is also a recurring cycle with ex leaders of Scientology, exposing what couldn’t be exposed and discussing freely all the elephants in the room, due to the organizational control of the top decision maker.

    Sinar, your postings about Pat and DM are so important, please write a book!

  198. I’m dying to know about this myself (figuratively speaking). In fact, I’d really like to know the backlines truth going back to 1981. Something started to smell to me all the way back then.

    I think this is kind of basic basic on the 3rd dynamic engram. I am convinced that many, many Scientologists believe David Miscavige was anointed by LRH one way or the other, and the myth that he was the chosen one has kept field and staff loyal to him and protecting him a la Bolivar policy. If they knew how he actually usurped the leadership position, the hold he has on many would unravel.

    I agree, too, he has to have been more than your average SP to have moved so relentlessly and so remorselessly into position so young in this life.


  199. Centurion,
    “The truth is starting to chip away at the base of Camera Operator Boy’s facade.”

    I love your repeated reference. I still have the Camera Boy photo of long ago, and your imaging always make me laugh.


  200. Martin Gibson

    Smokin’ gun… Mike “smokin’ gun” Rinder. Can you feel the thunder!!! RELOAD… Its unending… Its inevitable!!!

  201. Great job, Mike! 🙂 Respect.

  202. Boyd,

    As I recall it, tech-admin ratio is 2:1 for a small org and as the org grows bigger it approaches 1:1. That doesn’t mean 1 auditor for every other staff, tech personnel is everyone in Div 4 & 5 (opages etc included) plus Div 6 delivery personnel, and admin is everyone else.

    A st. Hill sized org should have about 40 auditors and I’d say 10 sups.

  203. WOW thats getting the message out, great stuff Mike

  204. martyrathbun09

    In fact, about the only place within the current C of S network you might find something resembling workable application of Scn tech is Narconon.

  205. Thanks Mike, amazing job. Well done.

    The mention of allowing Scientologists to freely practice without DM’s abuses and insanity, was especially well done, and I’m really glad this was shown. This further highlights the fact that there IS separation between Scientology and (the current practices of) the “Church of Scientology”. This, I feel, is a key point that needs to be hit home in the media in a huge way; that you and Marty, et al, are not, in fact, “former/ex-Scientologists”, but Scientologists who have rejected the abusive, “unscientological” Church and continue to practice outside of it.

    Great stuff; thank you.

  206. martyrathbun09

    John, Good point. I am working on a post about how overboard they are now going on pc folder use. It used to be they’d use a tid bit or two to create an introversion. Now, there is wholesale culling and analysis and use to wage all out mental warfare on people.

  207. martyrathbun09

    I agree.

  208. Richard Reed

    veritas // July 23, 2010 at 12:22 am | Wrote:

    Snicks and all inside the walls of the fabricated sham temple.

    Get a copy of an LRH edition (1970 and pre) of Scientology 0-8, The Book of Basics.

    Go to page 40, and look up Item (25) of The Auditor’s Code AD 18:

    I promise to cooperate fully with the legal organizations of Dianetics and Scientology as developed by L. Ron Hubbard in safeguarding the ethical use and practice of the subject according to the basics of Standard tech.

    Get a current David Miscavige GAT (Gross Auditing Travesties) edition of the same title, go to the Auditor’s Code and look up that item.

    Hold the books side by side.
    What do you see?

    “as developed by L. Ron Hubbard” is gone, removed, deleted, not there in the sham Auditor’s Code.

    Very telling omission.
    It seems David Miscavige doesn’t need, or want, LRH – Just the power and money.

  209. Christie,

    Love that story! Geez … just a little communication, some smiles, keepin it real. How hard is that?

    Just Me

  210. Your uncle’s a wise dude. Stats are fun and sometimes instructive. But eventually most people figure out how to game the metrics.

    As the maxim goes, be careful what you measure, because that’s what you’ll get.

    Just Me

  211. I’m an optimist. Therefore, I imagine the BBC will figure out a way to go forward with their program about the church and their interview with Mike.

    Just Me

  212. Bobo,

    Never regret yesterday, life is in you today, you make your own tomorrow.


  213. veritas,

    Thank you for the data. I will check it out.

    I am currently going toe-to-toe with RTC on many things.

    This is something else I will ask about.

  214. Jim,

    Thanks and I completely understand what you are saying and I don’t disagree.

    What I meant was not about being careful or afraid or safe.

    I meant that it’s very important to be as stable as possible to get the work done. I meant safety belts as a way to stabilize ones self for the battle so a person doesn’t get knocked around.

    Does that make more sense?

    P.S. Abusing yourself? LOL, very funny!

  215. Penny,

    Well, I’ve been one just as long, if not longer than you, so I think you and I have the same reality.

    I have learned much and continue to do so.

    As for me and what I am doing, the only way I can answer that is to say I am following my integrity and carrying out a personal promise I made to LRH made many, many years ago.

    What I do is strictly between he and I and needs no further explanation to anyone for any reason.

    As long as you and everyone else is following their integrity, I think that’s great and have no opinion or judgment on what you should be doing.

  216. Pekka,

    I’m just someone who loves LRH.

    Well, I’ve successfully refused to donate for anything other than services and books, per LRH.

    If I get declared, it won’t be the first time. LOL Back in the 70’s, I got a verbal declare and my certs cancelled for refusing to follow BTB’s and telling the GO to piss off when they tried to “handle” me on it.

    Thank you for saying I deserve better. I’m sure we all do.

  217. IMO that’s only because it’s far removed from Int lines in most cases.

  218. martyrathbun09


  219. Theo Sismanides

    Right on Mike, no introversion here AT ALL! Over the ramparts!!!

    I think the answer to Bobo’s “What did you do to handle it” is that you just DID it, while others are doing nothing still.

    You and Marty are handling the Ethics side of this and the PR and it goes wonderfully good. Imagine we get more divisions in, in, in and doing the functions instead of asking questions about the past! Life is in us today and we make our own future!

  220. The BBC works in mysterious ways.

  221. Tom,

    As a current supervisor, thanks!

  222. Great work Mr. Rinder.

  223. MissedGarbage Watcher

    Thank you very much, Mike.
    Very Well Done.

  224. John,
    My Dad was a QB for the Chicago Cardinals and I’m quite sure he would have said the same thing.
    The other quote I use often is one from when he Broadcast in the 60’s:
    “Monday morning Quarterbacks are a dime a dozen.”(Which is my answer to all who say: “How could you have stayed in there so long?” As well as: “Have u ever seen the Truman Show?”)
    Best to you 🙂

  225. Snicks,

    Understand and can appreciate that. No make wrong intended.
    I left when I did, simply because the tech was too far out on my auditing to endure and there were many things going on I did not agree with.

  226. DFB aka Dfb99

    I assume it is the reverse, the taking a lot out of you part. Truth has a way of filling you with life and powerful theta energy.

  227. ΘTater/GaryLerner

    Han Solo,

    Dealing with people that have a drug problem is essentially difficult. You are not just handling that person but you are dealing with his track and universe. The nature of the being under the influence of drugs presents many problems that directly or indirectly affect the ability to correctly undo those influences. It’s not just about vitamins and 2way comm and nutrition, etc.. There is no perfect way to handle someone as complex as a drug case.

    Do you remember being in an auditing session and following along with the auditor, the commands and such required to complete the action? Try it when you’re stoned or having withdrawals. It can be a long haul for a druggie to get clean and ethical.

    You will get results with Narconon as long as there is not squirreling of it’s and LRH’s tech.

    If that person you mentioned that committed suicide, had not been put under a stressful situation that lowered his tone level to apathy and below, would have had a fighting chance to survive. But it really depends on him and his universe as to how much at cause he is to begin with without the drugs scrambling his body and track.

    Perhaps the LRH HCOB “Nature of a Being” (I believe that’s it’s title), will give you some insight to the difficulty of handling drug cases and addictions.


  228. ΘTater/GaryLerner


    “What did you do to handle it? A person of integrity can’t just shrug it off. It had to hurt, there had to be scars. ”

    Self-flagellation (whipping onself to atone for your sins) does not as-is an overt. Perfect duplication of that overt does. Empathy, awareness of causing harm to others, etc… brings about a being’s self-salvation and helps to align a person’s ethics to a just EP. Then that being is ready to give back theta and ARC to others and end-cycle on the overt/s.

    It’s just pure ARC that creates an understanding. And that creates the Truth.

    Thus Theta rather than Entheta prevails.

    You do what’s right and true and no one but a psychotic will try to stop you. (DM, hint, hint, wink, wink 😉 )

    Mike can walk tall because he knows what to do to correct himself. And Mike you do walk tall!!



  229. John Travolta is beloved and beyond reproach. I’ve done my own informal surveys. TC is toast.

    John needs a friend? He’ll find one here. Bountifully.

    The willingness to stand up is the end run, ultimately.

    I truly wish him and his the best. He’s a good man. As good as it gets.


  230. I’m not Mike, but I’ll pitch in what I know.
    1) Why the cameras?
    A) They record *everything* and turn it over to the attorneys.
    B) The obvious intent to introvert you so possibly you’ll feel uncomfortable, and leave.
    C) The endless “We are Cause and YOU are
    EFFECT” —they have to keep that in, and the cameras helps, or so they think.

    What do they do with all the film? DM uses the film to tie up TC and others out at Hemet 🙂

    Why doesn’t DM go on camera and admit that he hit someone? Is that an honest question?
    Why do hateful people say nasty things? BECAUSE THEY DO. Why don’t they admit it? Because then we’re talking possible JAIL.
    MY 2 cents : )

  231. Let them email you, once in a while something valuable comes through.

  232. An article would definitely be a start to greasing those skids, good idea.

  233. DM has the Mind of a shark. When Sec Checked by Jesse Prince on Hubbard’s request he eleborately made sure to indicate his drinking and gambling buddy Pat B. Jesse Prince had to kick it upstairs to YES. Pat B. So Hubbard never recieved the real Sec Check results on DM.

    One could even say that Pat B. was key to DM’s rise to power.

  234. Bryan Seymour obviously agrees. His response to Mike naming JT as his favourite CoS celeb: “It’s easy, isn’t it?” I took that as meaning – JT stands above the crowd.

  235. “Keep in mind, OSA’s goal here on the Net is “Divide and Conquer”–so the less we do that, the better we are. My goal is connection–and inclusion vs. exclusion”

    Tory it seems the OSA op basis is to TALK about their op basis being divide and conquer, and how we need to be very careful about that, but then to do the opposite. Since this hasn’t worked there’s a higher level intel game and that’s – push the idea that it’s a big tent. We must open the floodgates of heaven and we’ll get our payday, come hell or high water. The way this will work is for this group to not worry quite so much and be not quite so frantic about pushing all-inclusiveness to achieve the abstraction of group world love or something. It’s not necessary to go quite that far – massive massive turnoff to onlines public.

    Yet the group shouldn’t be shunning left and right either. There’s a balance there.

    Call it the obvious perception of the way things are. In order to expand the tendrils must be sheered from time to time. It seems like a contraction flow but the like the Tao Te Ching, it works in opposites. But thanks for being here. “Where were you when we were getting high?” Know what I’m saying? I’m sure your input springs from deep wells.

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