Well, 36 hours after Daniel’s departure from Tiziano and Jamie’s, six full time PIs still have the place under surveillance. $30,000 to $50,000 spent per day, conservative estimate, in an attempt to cave in this couple. Product? $30,000 to $50,000 a day wasted, and their image as a radical, bullying cult more firmly etched in the public mind.
All the while, Lil’ Dave Lebow has been in Clearwater orchestrating full-time harrassment against Mike Rinder.
Some people have expressed to me the concern that my graphic reporting of the Radical Scientology Cult PI hijinks might tend to back off people who would otherwise step forward to help in the cause. That may be so. But, those who consider backing off ought to know that we are beginning to expererience a major tipping point that I suggested several months ago that we might see sooner or later. That is, when enough people stand up to the bullying rather than do what Miscavige intends the targets of his harassment to do – that is, shrink and crawl quietly into darkness – the in terorrem effect will, once and for all, be lost. Remember, Miscavige has two missiles in his arsenal. One, intimidation with seemingly unlmited chutzpah and money in order to wear one down to the attitude of “it is not worth it any more.” Two, when “one” has had its intended effect, use seemingly unlimited funds to either a) make the legal and PR trouble he has created with this over-the-top intimidation tactics go away, or b) throw the target a bone to settle and go away quietly. I also said from the beginning that breaking the mafia-like monopoly of terror Miscavige runs is inevitable because we are a new breed of cat. We are immune to both missiles in his arsenal. We just ain’t afraid, and we are not buyable at any price.
With Radical Scientology PI’s swarming like mosquitos a few helpful tips are in order.
If you get messed with by the PI’s, realize that objective number one for OSA/Miscavige is to get into your head. Did you know that when you scratch the itch after a mosquito bites, you exacerbate the problem by spreading its deposited poison? If you can withstand the first few impulses to scratch, the itch will go away.
So, rule one is to not let them bother you.
However, this is not so workable when you are subjected to swarms of hungry mosquitoes. In that case, it will behoove you to swat the little peckers before they insert their blood suckers into your skin. The key to this second rule, is don’t get frazzled. Do it sytematically, and calmly and you are liable to prevent much penetration. If it persists, you might want to fog or spray your area – treat them a bit more aggressively. But, again a calm, rational approach works best.
If the mosquitoes persist and make your home, and your person, a habitat, then you had better have your perimeter treated, perhaps by a professional. In the case of Miscavige’s mosquitoes, law enforcement is the best mosquito guard. Some of his better paid mosquitoes will develop a resistance to the professional mosquito guard. But, if you continue informing your local professionals they will likely up the gradient giving you a comfortable perimeter.
Dear Leader’s favorite private investigator, David Lubow, usually slinks around in the shadows pretending to be an International Man of Mystery. Most often he is found hiding on the other end of a phone spreading Black PR. On that score, he has always served as an accurate reflection of Miscavige’s state of mind. Accordingly, he has been spotted of late desparately attempting to get under targets’ skin, on the streets and sidewalks engaging in overt harassment.
Here he is two days ago surveilling Mike Rinder at a restaurant in Clearwater:
Did anyone see the resemblance to a mosquito?
Here is Lebow the very next day, across the street from Mike and Christie’s home in Tarpon Springs:
As you can see, Lebow is apparently using “swarm tech”, quite ineffectively.
Mike finally calls the local exterminator because Lebow, carrying out Miscavige’s On Human Behavior PAB tech of making himself so repulsive as to offend the sensibilities of innocents in the environment (namely Mike and Christie’s neighbors). But, not before thoroughly reversing the flow by questioning the investigator to understand and document the nature of its harassment.
Again, don’t lose sight of this fact. Miscavige’s mission is to make all of his hosts in his image. Dave Lebow is a study in the current state of mind of David Miscavige.
“That is, when enough people stand up to the bullying rather than do what Miscavige intends the targets of his harassment to do – that is, shrink and crawl quietly into darkness..”
Marty I hope you and your friends don’t do what Dennis Erlich did: abandon the cause, and the people who supported him with donations, leaving them vulnerable, at the first offer of a big cash prize.
What Little Leader doesn’t realize is bullying is so 2007. No one puts up with it anymore. There are nationwide anti-bullying campaigns being launched in schools and in the media to stop exactly what the C of M is attempting to do.
Let’s stand up to the bullies, who are really just cowards. Their actions are laughable and so embarrassing for the C of M. No more bullying!
LivO — wouldnt be concerned about that. If that was anyone’s intention, it would have happened long before now. There have been plenty of opportunities.
This looks like stalking, harassment and disturbing the peace. All illegal. If Lebow is going around to the neighbors with tales about you, that would be slander. Get them on that charge too. How about holding a block party and announcing to all the neighbors what the dwarf is doing?
If you call the police/sheriff depart while this is going on they’ll be able to get you the name of the coward with the camera. Mike, go down to the Pinellas County courthouse and get a temporary restraining order on Lebow and the coward. They’ll HAVE to show up for a court appearance when the judge rules on whether or not to make the temp restraining order a permanent one.
Does Elliot Ableson have a license to practice law in Florida?
This strikes me as a moderately subtle effort to get Marty to badmouth Dennis, who has many admirers in the “critic community” – ie., another effort to foment strife amongst McSavage’s enemies.
Maybe I’m overly paranoid.
Michael A. Hobson
LivO, Marty and his “friends” live by the code of honor. Their LIFE has been and is scientology.
It is FAR MORE LIKELY that those close to DM will be the ones who cut their losses and take cover.
Nothing to date should give you any concern. In fact, just the opposite. Get on the bandwagon while there is still time. Don’t be the last one in the bunker.
Regarding this … “that my graphic reporting of the Radical Scientology Cult PI hijinks might tend to back off people who would otherwise step forward to help in the cause. ” …
Your (or anyone’s for that matter) reporting not only let’s people know the truth of what is going on, but it also let’s them know that there are people OUT there that know what is going on, are doing something about it and can help them.
That the hijinks by COS and its hired PIs are going on it not new – what is new is that people are hearing and doing something about it.
I have been respectful and quiet since I routed out of the SO. Although I have no where near the line of attack scn has taken on many others – cos members have outright lied about me to other non-cos family members, have tried to get them to disconnect from me, have stolen scn materials from me, and have attempted to undermine me in other ways.
Lack of stepping up won’t stop anything – the COS is as covert as they come and they will lie, steal, cheat – whatever! – in order to do their bidding.
Every puff of wind to add to the collapse of their house of cards is valuable.
What a complete sleeze bag. Interesting to watch his body language — the backing off when he doesn’t know how to respond and the moving in when he thinks he’s got control again (not).
I don’t know how long the church has used these tactics, but I’m glad they are being exposed for all the world to see. DM, are you proud of this guy? D’ya think he’s doing a good job for ya? Wow, if so (and I guess you do since you continue to hire him), very sad, very sad.
Nice shirt Mike ;). You know how to dress. So little Davey deadbeat was buzzing around the oases of sanity. hope it rubbed of on him a bit.
Do you realize how many people are beinmg employed in these difficult times by these shanenegins ? ;). You keep the US economy afloat.
Heey churchies “What your donations buy”
Safepointing the neighbors is a great idea. It worked great for Tory Christman — the pickets and leaflets had absolutely no effect. I enjoyed the videos, but it might be more helpful to get a larger number of PIs on video if that is possible. Just to show how much money is being wasted.
You have a child on the property do you not?
Do the Police and Courts not take a dim view of “strange creepy old men” who stand outside the home of a minor with a camera on a tripod? They might be inclined to think he was a pedophile or something! If I was your neighbor I know for sure I would have called the Police myself. 😉
Respect to you and Marty!
Bullbaiting sponsored by DM. He must really love ya guys!
Harrasment becomes a bigger and bigger button in society and in the BBC documentation it took already the longest part. I can imagine that the German and French … TV stations will take this up.
Keep up your good TRs!
I have to agree with what Mike Rinder said. He said that he was smarter than this weasel PI, and he is, by a long shot. It was so very obvious that his PI is on frail ground. And he knows it.
Yes, they are messing with the wrong people.
Mike, your confront and your TR’s are in and are stellar. Man, I have to say that I am not one to give admiration lightly, but I give it all in this case.
If it had been me, I would have been releasing a fusilade of foul words and insults at that worm.
I love experiencing such things as it gives me pause to see where I need improvement.
It is good for our cause that you are not me. It is good for our cause that you are with us. I do not see how we can lose. You and Marty have the advantage, and I think the other side is running scared. Very scared.
If LRH’s legacy is to be restored, it will begin right here, with you and all of us who support you and LRH.
Thank you so much for your dedication and your professionalism.
I need a session.
Then you think it is OK to sell out if your are admired by those “critics” that think it is cool to steal LRH’s property and spread it all over?
I believe you are not going to find much support for that in this thread, or this forum. Marty has already said Erlich was for sale and was bought.
Re: Lebow’s Q’s about rent, etc. Another repellent: Contact all 3 credit bureaus, as well as every single account you have, all of them, even if not reported to bureaus, utility, mtge, landlord, anything. Tell them you think there might have been an identity theft attempt and are being proactive. Credit Bur’s request a Fraud alert (must be renewed request each 3months).
All other accounts request they contact you personally before Any changes and set up a secret password if they call you about any. Tell your neighbors friends and family to report any suspicious activity to police, then let you know what, when, etc. Let employer/HR know too if it’s warranted.
Keep a detailed log of anything and include any docs when you can. An official paper trail establishes a pattern. One incident, not so much.
Any suspicious calls or sounds on phone, or if actual PI’s in area, google to learn turn off GPS tracking on your phone (and car gps if you have one).
Natalie, I second your motion.
Watching this idiotic clown Lebow made me *almost* feel some pity for DM. It was so pathetic, laughable, embarrassing. The guy was squirming under the heat of Mike’s questions like the little weasel he is, while Mike remained calm, cool, collected.
I also *almost* feel a bit sorry for the DM loyalists who still aren’t aware that their ship is rapidly sinking.
David Miscavige is such an odious man.
Those PIs are like fleas. It would be nice if the local media came down to shove cameras in their faces, and ask them WTF they think they are doing.
Are these idiots taking videos of children playing in your or anyone else’s yard? If so, you might be able to involve the police with that.
Anyone else seeing parallels between PT society issues and Scientology?
Alter-is of the Consitution v. Alter-is of the Tech
Peaceful defiance of suppressive politicos v. Peaceful defiance of supressive church execs
Using the Constitution to fight back against the status quo v. using Tech to fight the Co$ status quo
Maybe I’m overly optomistic, but I like to think of it as postulates at work in present time. OT phenomena. I dunno… but I think of it as more than coincedental.
Yes? No? Yes? Yes. 😉
I grew up in Texas and boy do I remember those mosquitoes! It was always noticeable that we seemed to be immune to their bites but visitors would come up in huge weals. Every so often the authorities would send around the fogger. After some years of this we realised the fireflies had almost all gone.
I’m sorry to say that my life has been overshadowed the last couple years by scientology mosquitoes, and I’ve been all for fogging the lot. But on your site I have discovered that there are also scientology fireflies. You are lights in the darkness.
These feelings are echoed by Sc.
For the first time ever, and for a truly great and appropriate reason, Mary used this blog to solicit donations to help Daniel Montalvo. I don’t think that it’s a coincidence that this comment form LivO comes today. Might I say, it’s a pretty pathetic attempt to sow doubt. But then, maybe you have so many of your own in that little OSA cubicle that you think that’s all it would take. Or maybe the weakness of the attempt is due to you being afraid of being spotted as an OSAbot.
There is a huge number of people who read this blog and I can say without much fear of contradiction that Marty and Mike enjoy tremendous support. We support their courage, their dedication, their determination, and their willingness to be the human targets that real leaders make of themselves when they stand up to bullies.
Oops, sorry Marty to have changed your gender like that –
MARTY used this blog…
I believe everyone needs to listen to the one statement Mike said to Lebow…”The problem is that I’m smarter than you are and you’re making constant mistakes”. No need to say anything else…..
Thanks — the neighbor did call the police after he threatened to smash their video camera. Only didnt put the footage of the police because and other events out of respect to the neighbors who did NOT want to be video’d.
I would so love to hear the insane ranting DM is most likely doing right this very second.
Props to you and all the indies right now Marty, these latest tactics smack of nothing more than absolute desperation. Kind of reminds me of the last days of Hitler when he was hiding out in his bunker and cursing everyone else but himself for his fate.
Keep it up guys, you’re winning!!
Now that is the right kind of “Public Relations”
OK, I was gonna keep it light, LivO, with my little joke above. But seeing as how you’ve popped up here acting all insulted at this rather pivotal moment, you’re just embarrassing yourself.
Really, guys, I’m blushing for you.
Thanks WE. Be assured that they know where the edges of the law are. Videoing from a sidewalk is not actionable. Talking to neighbors isnt actionable. Dont worry, all the neighbors know who these people are and despise them. (On the other hand they sent us thankyou notes after the July 4th Independent’s Party for providng such a nice fireworks display). What will be their undoing is the pattern of their actions. I have many hours of video footage. Mike
Do the Police and Courts not take a dim view of PI’s filming the home of a child? This totally disgusts me on a whole new level.
If I was your neighbour and saw that I would have called the police immediately. The guy looks like some creepy pedophile! WTF is this? It’s bad enough they do this shit with you and Marty but Christie has a little son. This is outrageous!
I’m posting the links to this and emails to every media outlet possible. As a mother this totally disgusts me beyond words.
Much respect to you.
“Who you gonna bring to be the man?”
I think we should come up with a rating system similar to those of the IAS for our “SPs”
Like SPatrons Meritorious, or
CZ SP. They look like real SPs but no one can really tell.
You get the Idea.
“What Your donationals Really Buy” and “Free Daniel and all child slaves of Cof$” good themes for LA Protest Oct 16. I hope All human beings who care about Human Rights, including those of children, show up. One united shout out to tumble the walls of miscavige terror slave camps.
I’m saddened to see this violent drama. Certainly, this is not the world I signed up for in scientology. lol. My needs were and are to help create a better world with more peace with others, and more inner peace within.
I see these videos as an example and an education as to how not to handle communication in a dreaded situation like this, however uncomfortable I’m sure it was. I feel sad for both parties here having this nonsense drama in their universe at all.
I understand how tempers can flare and one can feel anger from Dave Lebow’s actions, and the need to stand up to obvious obnoxious bullying. I also understand the anger Dave Lebow would feel by the judgement of being questioned “a pussy”. Here are two individuals in judgement of each other saying how wrong the other is. It can’t lead to anywhere positive.
I feel there may have been a missed opportunity to work towards more peace here. I didn’t see any compassion between the two parties, nor any attempt by either to find out what the other was feeling and trying to unearth the needs behind the anger of either. Perhaps it could have led to more understanding of each other. Maybe even lead to Dave going, “This is not right. I’m not going to do this anymore!” Wishful thinking? Maybe. Maybe not.
I only observed the language of jackal between the two … in other words, violent communication which clearly gets nowhere, every time. IMO, the tech of nonviolent communication should be learned and tried. I’m certain the outcome will be much more positive next time if it is.
From my understanding of being a scientologist, one of the goals is to move forward towards understanding each other. Here, even basic ARC wasn’t applied, let alone the tech of increasing the quality of compassion, understanding, and connection with the other through nonviolent comm.
Both parties failed at applying nonviolent communication. I’m not blaming anybody here. I understand it’s just missing tech that neither party knows how to do yet. That’s why I keep saying this is the lacuna in name-brand Scientology, and should be learned. Much better outcomes will happen than what we saw here. (I promise that. It has drastically changed my life by creating much more peaceful, respectful, and friendly relations. I’m still a work in progress though and don’t get it right every time yet.)
I admire, though, the courage of Mr. Rinder. I respect his ability to confront (and love his amazingly charming voice that any PR firm or TV Commercial Producer would pay big bucks for.)
I just hope all, given an uncomfortable situation such as Mike being “spied” on, can rise above potential hazard of shifting into the valence of a peacebreaker, and instead, hold steadfast as a peacemaker. Again, nonviolent communication tech gives the tools to do so.
If it happened in Italy, this Shit of P.I. was dissolved in acid
Great TR’s! As soon as Davey-Wanna-Be LoBlow was asked by you if he had followed you before, he was back-peddlin’ so fast in his tiny little squirrel-caged mind that I could smell wood burin’ all the way from here!
I especially liked the last bit with D-W-B’s phone ringing 🙂 Hey, D-W-B, was that your mamma (little-real-SP-DM) callin’ – AGAIN?! BWHAHAHAHAHAHAA!!!
Gary (just a villager lighting a torch for little dm’s thong buddies)
Lubow says to Rinder, “Anytime you want to sit down and talk man to man”, Rinder says “Who are you going to bring to be the man?” Lubow slinks off. LOL! Unimaginable the amount of parishioner $ that is being wasted surveiling people to keep them from exposing DM’s High Crimes.
Like the walls of Jericho.
” bullying is so 2007. No one puts up with it anymore. There are nationwide anti-bullying campaigns being launched in schools and in the media to stop exactly what the C of M is attempting to do.
Let’s stand up to the bullies, who are really just cowards. ”
Exactly. It’s getting pretty of ludicrous. Bullies. Rich bullies, using coerced dollars.
Here come old flattop he come grooving up slowly
He got joo-joo eyeball he one holy roller…
..He say “I know you, you know me”
One thing I can tell you is you got to be free
Come together right now over me
He roller-coaster he got early warning
He got muddy water he one mojo filter
He say “One and one and one is three”
Got to be good-looking ’cause he’s so hard to see
Come together right now over me
Wayne. There was no violence in those scenes. And the “Indie” movement is totally non-violent.
What you seem to wish for is some sort of hug fest when someone invades your privacy. Many folks would come out of their homes swinging an axe. I thought Mike handled it wonderfully. I am curious how you would respond. This isnt a mis-communication or a third party situation. This is a hired investogator harrassing and investigating a private citizen who is speaking out against abuses. Get a grip. Recall LRH’s on handling the Black Panther. Hugging was not an option.
Uhm…And how is that a good thing ?
So true and obvious that Rinder is smarter than the soulless heartless Dave L.
Thanks for this post and I understand your viewpoint. HOWEVER, may I point out that the PI’s are on PAYROLL. They get PAID to do this.
If you think there is a possible outcome that’s going to be all kumbia-like and warm and fuzzy, you’re mistaken. IMHO
By the way, I saw Mike acting in a consummately professional manner.
My apology if I misinterpreted your post.
Bozz, I totally see it — have even commented on this on a few occasions to friends and family. There does seem to be some sort of dramatization going on at the moment that seems to extend beyond just our church game.
Mike, your ethics presence is impeccable! Love it!
Hmmm . . . looks like the mosquitoes have made their way into the blogosphere. Remember not to scratch . . .
Wayne — a good friend of mine was with Amnesty International for 15 years – and currently does negotiations for them in EXTREMELY violent areas – like Sri Lanka.
I’ve never been present during those negotiations but I can tell you that if he needed to call someone a name — I’m guessing he would.
Nonviolent communication IMHO doesn’t mean nicey nicey but an INTENTION to not harm the other party.
I didn’t get any inkling that Mike’s intention was to HARM Lebow — in fact, he told him over and over — I know you. I worked with you. You are heading for big trouble.
It’s all about INTENTION.
You can have the most apparently nonviolent communication that is RIFE with the intention to harm.
I don’t think there is any danger of Mike shifting valences. He’s been through the fire.
Valence shifting happens before going THROUGH the fire.
No danger here.
Great job standing up to these shmucks Mike et al.
I think the “pope pimp” of cabbageology could take a lesson from the real Pope of the Catholic Church. I do believe that the real Pope went around and apologized for the out-ethics within the Catholic Church. If DM had ANY smarts he would start admitting to HIS wrongdoings and step down as cob. This would be a bare minimum action to help salvage this philosophy if this were truly his intention.
As a matter of tactical considerations, the time may be approaching where you either blow or drink the koolade.
If you think you might *ever* want to jump the rotten ship and start making a difference again (I know your decision to join reflected your better nature) – and you have a shred of survival instinct – it’s now or potentially never.
LivO said: ““critics” that think it is cool to steal LRH’s property and spread it all over?”
It’s not? I had fun doing it. Doesn’t seem to have hurt the indy movement… In fact, it could be said it really helped the indies a lot.
Your timing is interesting. The elephant in the room this weekend seems to be, “what was on those drives and were copies made?”… Of course, if copies were made, it would be a worry of OSA that someone might “spread it all over”.
Golly gee, wouldn’t it be neat if we could get a whole bunch of indies to say how terrible that would be *before* it happens? So we can show their hypocrisy *after* it happens? Or maybe provide some pre-emptive pressure NOT to “spread it all over?”
Et ipsi scientia potestas est.
The dwarf is a VOYEUR.
“Marty I hope you and your friends don’t do what Dennis Erlich did: abandon the cause, and the people who supported him with donations, leaving them vulnerable, at the first offer of a big cash prize.”
You seem to have some insider knowledge. What is your Game ?
This was complete and utter awesomeness on the part of those involved in dealing with these twits. Thank you all for your courage in standing up to the insanity. Mike Rinder, I like you so much better now that you are out. LOL! I remember writing event reports about you (under the nick Cerridwen) and really roasting you. I had no idea what you had been going through but it began to make sense once I knew about the insidious verbal and physical abuse. Thanks for coming out on the right side of this Mike. Oh and btw, did the evil dwarf ever get to read my event reports? I always wondered if he knew about them or if they were kept from him for fear he’d go postal.
Obvious troll is obvious. This guy is the same troll that tries to badmouth Dennis Erlich wherever he goes. The OP (opening post) is about the evil practices of the cult, and your attempts to cause a shit stir is noted.
Is it me or was the 3rd video meant to be silent?
Nice confront Mike. And I must say you have a right handsome looking dog. 🙂
They don’t know the edges of the law as well as you suggest. They are way beyond any edges into clearly illegal areas.
David Lubow (not Lebow) is not licensed in Florida. He is licensed in California as Falcon Business Services, Lic. No. 24394. California does have a reciprocity agreement with Florida, allowing an investigation which was intitiated in California to be carried on by California Investigator in Florida for no more than 30 days, per the following State of Florida link:
“Provisions of the Reciprocity Agreements:
An investigator may conduct business outside his or her home state only under the circumstances indicated below.
The investigation must be initiated in the investigator’s home state.
The investigator may spend no more than 30 days Per Case while conducting an investigation in another state. . . .
The investigator is prohibited from soliciting business while in another state and from establishing a business or setting up residence while conducting an investigation in that state.”
Aside from the 30 day limitation, reciprocity applies to actually INVESTIGATING in a lawful manner in order uncover needed information for a specific purpose. What Lubow (or Lebow) is doing is not investigating but engaging in calculated harassment and invasion of privacy. These are actionable torts, if not outright crimes under the law of Florida. He already knows where you live. Why is he video taping your home? Why is he following you around? These activities serve no legitimate investigative purpose. Eliot Abelson would be very hard pressed to explain what supposed case against you he is trying to support with these “investigations” or how videotaping your home or following your around would be thought to support such a case.
If he cannot demonstrate a legitimate investigative purpose for his activities (or if he has worked on it for more than 30 days in Florida), then according to Title XXXII, Sections 493.6100 to 493.6203 of the Florida Stautes, he is breaking the law and guilty of committing at least a misdemeanor. Again, it is simple harassment and invasion of privacy, nothing more.
You have done an excellent job of documenting the abuse.
Mike, please do make a complaint to: Division of Licensing
Post Office Box 6687
Tallahassee, Florida 32314-6687, and/or otherwise. It is genuinely not o.k. to do what they are doing.
Thank you for sharing. I do hope the Neigbours support you
Not knowing what slander the church gets them to spread around to the neigbours about you. Certaintly hope thats covered.
Thanks also for sharing the R/ factor why the police part was not video’d in respect to neigbours and not wanting to be on camera. Please take care.
What eddie Vroom said. Get out now. Fast.
A Peeping Dave
Yes Great TRs I support you all !!!Thank you in what your doing !!!
Thanks Mike for getting Dave Lebeau on video tape and actually talking. Now more independents out there will know what he looks like and how he sounds so they can ignore that asshole.
Sorry to see he hasn’t lost any of his sliminess after all these years.
I noticed he tried to get into your head when he moved closer to your space and you were not having any of it Mike.
Sunshine is what these rats hate the most. Now Dave Lebeau is as notorious as DM himself. He will probably end up in the SP Hall for trying to grab the camera and spotlight away from the Diminutive One himself.
Yes, the body language was pretty good, wasn’t it? Unlike Mike, who’s TR’s are so damn good, this Davey guy was all over the place. The guy needs to clear “false bravado” and then drill doing it purposefully. My favorite part was when Mike said “I’m smarter than you.” Le Bow apparently agrees. His reaction was very telling. Le Bow knows that Mike is smarter than he is, and that remark impinged, big-time. I have to assume Mike knew that one would find its mark, too, since Mike really IS smarter than Le Bow…
No, of course, but this is a danger that can happen .
FOLKS: those sitting on the fence, going on course trying to keep a low profile, those attending events in the hopes things are going to turn around.
Is this what you thought your donations paid for? Do you want your donations to pay for stuff like this? Is this the kind of Div 6 activity you thought your money was going towards? Just type in Scientology into google, and then filter “news”. Take a look at the div 6 PR your donations are buying! Quite something isn’t it?
Ever notice how mosquitoes love suckin’ the life out of anything with a pulse, whereas fireflies go a sparkin’ when nature is all nice and harmonious?
Theta trumps entheta!! (bzzzzz…. SLAP!) 🙂
It’s a good thing the DM has the IAS to fund these activities since Org income has dried up due to failure to deliver standard tech. Wouldn’t want him to dip into his hidden retirement funds.
If only Barbara Griffin could talk.
I can’t see Marty EVER caving-in to DM. Never.
Marty is neither an Erlich nor a Mayo. Marty will go the whole route.
You have to trust SOMEBODY.
Wont ever happen — 100% guaranteed. Yes, this is an exception to the principle that absolutes are unobtainable.
“How To Be A Sheep” (by A. Wolf)???
Just because the PI can speak words/is speaking words doesn’t mean there is ANY intention residual in him to communicate, not even faintly. When words are being used as bullets, you fire word bullets back, more than the other guy.
Don’t lie…..but for SURE get your shots in.
It’s kinda dumb to be the fool trying to communicate to a wolf that ONLY wants to eat you (not DUPLICATE you). Introvert the enemy – it causes them to make mistakes, especially when you’re a non-Scientologist weenie P.I. with NO orientation.
Make mincemeat of ’em, Mike!
Don’t trash other people who had a very different church against them back in the day to lift up Marty.
It makes you seem petty and Marty doesn’t need it.
Alsoo, that was a smart little dividing bomb. I see what you did there.
I was thinking the same watching this interview with a jihadist turned reformer. Lots of parallels with the Scn sit..
Absolutely. Many believe that Dennis Erlich was the father of the Independent Movement. Now all the text is out there for all of us to use.
I’m totally with you there. I’ve never been much interested in the news but I can’t wait to read the headlines every day at the moment.
Perfect song! Dave Jr. is oozing slime.
I’m loving Mike’s wit. If so many people’s lives weren’t at stake, all this would be worth it for the humor — but, given the seriousness of what is at stake, I am glad to see Mike Rinder’s wit is not just wit for the sake of wittiness, rather deadly serious.
And good on Christie for chiming in about the truth. Brave mother bear is brave.
LRH is very clear about how to handle bullies.
I’ve never have, nor ever will be nice to someone who is intent on stealing my lunch money and giving me a bloody nose. In this type of situation I choose to escape unscathed and teach the bully not to mess with me again.
It is YOUR choice to risk getting your face smashed in and go hungry and you are more than welcome to attempt to reason with a rabid animal.
But it is NOT your right to preach to others who are on the receiving end of what is occurring right now.
As for your claim that this would somehow be what LRH wanted or the standard that must be set for a Scientologist – I don’t recall the tech of ‘nonviolent communication’ in any of my studies – what reference?
I’m sorry if this seems harsh and offends your sensibilities in some manner but I find your admonishments against those who have the right and desire to fight back equally offensive.
Guess I just wasn’t cut out to be a Saint. Sorry to disappoint you. NOT!
The only ones making BIG bucks are the PIs and attorneys. BIG BIG bucks! They don’t give a damn about ANYTHING else.
“Who ya gonna bring to be the man?”
I’m sorry – I couldn’t get past that bit. I’m sure the rest of the videos were equally entertaining but that line did me all in 😀
I took the OP to be more about honour and integrity, and advises not selling out the cause, and others for money.
This is what IAS donations buy.
Who cares about Mike’s lease? What does that have to do with anything? It’s so ridiculously obvious that it’s pure and simple harassment.
From a quote by philosopher Friedrich Nietzsche, which reads roughly like this (translations vary, of course) : “Battle not with monsters lest ye become a monster; and if you gaze into the abyss the abyss gazes into you.”
It warns us against becoming the very thing that we fight.
This liability is dispensed with by not resisting UNCLEVERLY, or too ROTELY, and resisting while in full command of the actual comm formula. Anyone who says you can’t “fight back” has wrongly interpreted something in their educations. Erlich and Mayo have long since retired from the scene, living off of their settlements, voluntarily bound into legal silence.
Finally a point of ‘R’ between us!
I knew it was possible 😉
Doubt you knew either Dennis or David, nor have any understanding of the situations they were under or the true facts of how and why things were settled.
That’s right – you’re the person that referred to org staff in a demeaning manner as well.
I knew both Dennis and David and considered and consider them friends and care about their well-being. I don’t know the complete facts – nor do I care. It isn’t going to further anything and it isn’t going to change anything.
Quit the derails, dwelling, finger pointing and out of arc. unproductive, dev-t crap.
Move on up a little higher.
BTW Mike Rinder, I know it has been mentioned how much better you look since you blew (& I must mention how I so loved chanting Mike Rinder Blew and so can You at the few anon protests I attended!) but I have to say that you look so vital and healthy in these videos, better even than the beeb ones. I hope that it is your own cooking as well as Christie’s!
Makes me think of that 70s Funkadelic line (which I am old enough to actually remember!) “Free your mind and the rest (your ass) will follow!” LOL. Go get ’em brother. Great to see you in such fine form.
Mitsu – I can’t hear the video either. Marty … maybe you could repost it?
+1 Comment intended for Patty not Brandon – placing confusing
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That would be Tom Klemesrud, if it’s really him.
Michael A. Hobson
I could have gotten into Scientology bigtime if not for stuff like this. I was even mailed a personality test when I was a kid living in the sticks (probably becaise I mail ordered Estes model rocket kits).
With DM at the helm, I have not and will not set foot in an Org, even if just for a pleasant afternoon of Tea and Philosophy.
With regard to Erlich, who is highly highly critical of LRH…..someone he never knew, there is a part of history that has never come to light. I was friends with Erlich’s brother in law and he told me stories of how Erlich used to beat his wife, Rosa, continually and repeatedly. This is during the time he billed himself in his parking space at the Fort Harrison garage as “The World’s Greatest Cramming Officer.” He had an abusive personality. There were also continuous management alerts sent out on James Byrne based upon reports his wife, Enid, had made about being beaten. I mention this because there are people here who have either admired James or complained. This history makes him a good DM tool. James can be real nice, too, and thats the only side I knew of him.
Investigating for mortgage fraud? Well, well, well, I do believe we have real life and current execution of Fair Game. There have been different opinions with statements of ex SO saying on one side LRH cancelled it – no longer in use, and the other that Fair Game was only by title cancelled with the practice kept in place as part of organized Scient0logy’s culture- even if held in check or restrained for some years.
If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, sounds like a duck, and tastes like duck … a rose by any other name …
With Daniel, being deprived of his freedom …
Fair Game seems to me both alive and well as practiced by the church and their attorneys.
ps. Loved the way Lebeau acknowledged that he worked directly for Rinder for 15 years, DAing he church’s and co’s statement that Rinder was only a lowly coffee and errand boy. Gotta back charge Leboy for that freedom mag printing now!!
I have a recurring image in my mind of a Rescue team digging into the sub-basements at PAC, and finding an outrage of Human Rights abuses amongst the RPF’s RPF. And that’s presuming status quo.
The first “thing” I did this lifetime in the Cincinnati Mission, circa 1975, was the old-fashioned Communications Course. I’ll tell you it was “real”. Perhaps there are those who have not had those benefits made available to themselves.
No offence Wayne, but there is something amiss in this subject matter you bring up.
Perhaps MOQ, Logan, could chime in. That is if he’s not gone fishing.
Kind regards, Tom
If you edit and string all the videos you have, Mike, I think you would have an easy case of harrassment and intimidation. If you get a restraining order, however, he would probably just leave the state and someone else would be sent. Before the conversation got heated, you could have acknowledged that he said he wasn’t following you or restated his obvious lie to the camera and said, “That is not what you said or did before.” Then yawned and say, “Excuse me, but I’m going to water my lawn now. Better protect your camera. Another angle is, after checking with your neighbors and getting their blessings, you might also look into stink bombs and loud music.
In vampire lore, Dracula controls mosquitos and all insects or can do so. DM is his Dracula. Therefore, DM’s biggest threat is the sunlight. Keep putting this truth into the sun. He also would need his native soil which in this case is his cronies and his money. Tom Cruise is a major crony and he should be called on the carpet by Amnesty International and the celebrities who might be outraged. I should also point out that while most of us see DM and his operatives as very cunning, most of his SO member operatives probably really do see Daniel as someone with grievious overts who stole org property. They are very programmed.
Next time you see David remind him about Nigeria in 2000.
Yes, I see parallels in the current US political scene, including dirty propaganda, thought stopping and listen don’t look, fear mongering, freedom = slavery, trade your liberties and humanity for security, end justifies the means, intimidation, SP/Socialist “the others” type labelling, don’t look, distraction, abracadbra methods of getting power back by the guys (and gals) who drove us over the cliff in the first place (all in the name of freedom).
There are facts, stats and dox to back this up and yet some people just won’t look, as it seems they are fixated on the logic of the philosophy and not the actual products of those claiming to be applying it.
The parallels are chilling.
Terrorists.This is the product they are going for, terrorism.Anyone complaining to the authorites can make this a complaint against terrorism. The C of S has become a terrorist organization.
Pure Admiration beaming your way, Sam!!!
I’m going to do a re-run from yesterday as I feel it is of such significance. Many of us seem to have a blank spot on those early years of the subject that we are ultimately talking about, and dealing with, here. And how this relates to the present scene.
There was a video that was linked to, here, yesterday of such importance it bears repetition. This is part one of five.
Phil Spickler is a treasure. We can all learn from his experiences. Listen. And learn. Here’s some perspective. Starting in ’52.
“metaqual”, this is “Dead Agent” pack type info. Both on Dennis and James. If you are going to post defamatory information about people, then at least have the balls to use your own right name when you do so.
Oh, and being highly, highly critical of LRH is not a crime on this blog. I suggest you are trying to PR yourself as a “Friend of Ron” and therefore of the Independents.
Michael A. Hobson
And what’s gonna be David Misc.’s comment ?
Maybe this : “I told you they are all squirrels. They don’t even respond properly to my handling !”
And as you go through to part 5 on this youtube series you’ll see where these mad dogs originated. I’m referring to Lablow and the Demented Midget, et al.
With love, Tom Gallagher
p.s. The solution to the present time problem lies in the past. And that is simply looking at it.
Why was what Erlich did wrong? Was it because it might restimulate people’s cases? Apparently not. Was it because the data might be used by those with bad intent to make more efficient implants and traps? Guess not. Apparently the only reason why it was wrong is because it deprived income to the church. Are you saying that the church is utterly and completely money motivated?
Okay, crap, I’m breaking the habit. I really am. I’m down to two packs a day. (Where the hell are my matches?) I’m working out, getting healthy, and getting things done. But, hey, I had to sneak a peak. Had to. The devil made me do it.
And I just can’t stand by the side for this.
So first I donated.
Then I observed. And I have to add my two cents. How to handle all of this nonsense. What to do in the face of pressure. First of all, think of Newton’s law about equal and opposite reaction. Power depends on resistance. Energy depends on resistance. Force depends on resistance. By properly using resistance, you become more and more powerful.
Ideas spread more rapidly when there is resistance. Great resistance accompanies any great movement.
If you would attain power, you have to embrace the resistance. Having PIs camped out on your doorstep is merely resistance. Use it to your advantage. Use it to generate energy and force. How do you do that? Well, figure it out. But, that’s why it’s important not to back down. That’s why it’s important to hold your ground and generate your own force and energy and ideas. Power does not come to those who fold up and allow themselves to be overwhelmed.
And I assume there are those in the audience who wish to become OTs. And what is an OT if not someone capable of handling force, energy, resistance?
DM does this movement a huge favor with all his resistance. All of his efforts have yet to squelch the independent movement.
But, the conundrum is: how do you increase your own power without increasing your opponent’s. Well energy and force don’t really care. Electricity doesn’t wonder what it’s about to be used for. Sunlight doesn’t pick what plants it will honor. Power takes the direction assigned. Someone makes a decision where the energy will be applied and what direction it will take and how much should be used to achieve a given end. So, even though power is non-denominational, it operates according to the dictates of whoever establishes the goals and purposes and significances for which that power will be used. (whew, what a mouthful. If I had more time I would make some pithy statement.)
So, when you embrace the resistance, you are also converting the beliefs of those involved so others side with your viewpoint of how the power should be used. The belief here is complex. American ideals. Freedom. Freedom of religion. Freedom from slavery. Freedom to choose and live life as you wish. All the stuff of the founding fathers. When dealing with DM’s force and resistance, you are generating energy, converting that energy to power and then establishing who has the rights to that power. And that goes to the person deemed to have the best idea.
You are on a PR campaign to the world and the nation. You hold yourself up as the rightful owner of that power. You present the forces of DM as sniveling usurpers, as betrayers of all those ideals to which mankind has aspired.
EMBRACE THE RESISTANCE.
ESTABLISH THE IDEALS.
TAKE OWNERSHIP OF THE IDEAS, ENERGY AND POWER GENERATED.
There are so many people worried about Marty and Mike somehow usurping the power left by LRH. Who cares? The only way this power will succeed is if we all take ownership of it. Each and every one of us. And I bet you can figure out why that is necessary.
Now, shhh. Let me go back to pretending not to be interested. I really am too busy for this shit. Christ!
(and loki, not a word. Not a friggin’ word!)
(and Boz, the same factors that go into achieving enlightenment go into having a sense of humor.)
It is actually what got me back into this scene. I was working on the macrocosm and it made me realize I had unfinished business with the microcosm.
According to Spickler, the purpose of the cameras is to key people in.
We all have our individual reasons why we left COS, for me, David Lubow was one of them. Although it wasn’t one of those “jaw-dropping” experiences when Lubow showed up at my door to question if I had an association with Mike and Marty (as well as a few other things…), but it was enough that he was there that helped me to determine I longer want any part of COS. Let me explain.
I had read previous accounts of COS hiring PI’s to investigate people and of course, I always believed the Church’s response that those allegations were false (of course now COS admits that their attorneys hire PI’s).
But my first real “Oh my God my Church really does that!” moment for me was when I met Mr. Rinder for the first time. I had been invited to his house through a mutual friend and as I drove to his gated community, my wife noticed something across the street from Mike’s house. It was a “PI”!!!
Mike Rinder had thoroughly warned my wife that communicating with him would put us in jeopardy with COS. But we decided to go look anyway. After all, we are in charge of our comm lines and we communicate freely to who we desire. Right?
On our way into his gated community we spotted a black SUV across the street parked in a precarious spot and my wife’s antennas went up and pointed it out to me.
So, I did what any real Scientologist would do, I backed up from the gate and proceeded to cross the street to CONFRONT the vehicle in question.
Looking back at the scene, I realize I was still in denial. I just didn’t believe my Church was doing all these ridiculous things we were being accused of!
Actually recalling it now it is ridiculously funny (with my wife in the passenger seat, I had pulled along side of the car in question so that she was next to the driver’s door of the SUV and I calmly said “Get out and knock on the window and ask for directions or something” to which which she yelled, “I ‘aint getting out of the car and doing nothing!” [Now imagine this comm cycle occurring between us as I’m parked right next to the SUV!]
Anyhow, she finally gets out and knocks on the door… nothing!
My wife looks at me through the car window and says “Honey, there’s no-one in here!” I, being a Scientologist, persist and tell her knock again. She does. And then I heard the sound of an electric motor as the window smoothly slid down to about 2 inches from the top.)
There I witnessed the demonstrable proof the the PR machine for COS is lying. Inside the brand new SUV was a sea org member I knew from Flag and he was spying on Mike Rinder’s house!
It was my the first of many “Ah ha” moments that would eventually lead me thinking for myself.
When I realized that if I knew him (the sea org member in the car) then, that means he know me! So my initial knee-jerk reaction was to put head back just far enough where he couldn’t see me and motion my wife to get back into the car.
Anyhow, my wife made some small talk about being lost (which after nearly 20 years of our being a part of COS was not a lie) then she hopped in the car and we sped off!
After realizing what we had just done, we burst into laughter for quite a few minutes… then reality started to set in.
You see, I worked for David Singer Enterprises at the time and my wife was working for a very high profile Scientologist, and, what we had just done not only jeopardized our income, but our future in Scientology!
Even though LRH is just trying to get us to look, we knew, just being there and communicating with Mike and Christie would put us in the hot seat. And now, we had just knocked on OSA’s door!—Literally!
We ended up going back and meeting Mr. Mike Rinder for the first time, (the SUV was gone when we went back ) and despite me feeling that a certain confrontational meeting would happen with OSA in the future (that’s another story…), I had a really nice time with Mike and Christie.
Anyhow, now knowing Mike Rinder, I have to admit his keen sense to predict the future is uncanny. He was absolutely 100% correct that our lives would be in jeopardy with Scientologists was 100% correct. My life kept bumping into OSA terminals ever since that first day.
And for taking the first chance back then to meet the ex=spokesperson for the my Church, I have since then been fired, (despite super high stats) my wife’s company contract was terminated with David Singer Enterprises as well as other high profile Scientologists [keeping identity secret for personal reasons].
Our names were dragged through the mud (libel really) by Souxie and Grant Boshoff, [who were instigated by OSA to do this smear campaign] via Facebook, we even made the Razzline and a few other Scientological lists I believe!
But I digress. You see months before this whole campaign against us started, I received a visit from Mr. Lubow at my house.
He described himself as a P.I. working for a lawyer, hired by the Church of Scientology. (After a few minutes, I got him to admit he was a Scientologist),
He had parked his car behind some bushes clearly away from house (which I don’t know why) and we stood on my porch, outside my house. He asked me if I knew Mike Rinder and Marty Rathbun as well as a few other questions.
At that time, if I had any doubt I had about the true intentions of COS, they were gone now. I could see that instead of spending parishioner donations on expansion, we were spending it tracking down any information on critics.
So I would personally like to Thank David Lubow for helping me to remove myself from that suppressive environment. It was a tipping point for me.
At that time I told Lubow that I did not personally meet Mike Rinder. I justified it as an “acceptable truth” as I know any attempt at real communication would have been utterly impossible because I observed Mr. Lubow twitch a bit when I mentioned the articles in the SP times.
Since then I have met Marty Rathbun as well as Tom Devocht, Steve Hall and my Italian friend Tiziano and quite few other true heroes. And if you don’t think these guys are heroes, do a little research into the crimes that OSA commits against critics.
Better yet, just ask Daniel.
Even though I had not publicly spoken out about COS and OSA’s tactics, my wife and I had lost income sources, been libeled and slandered from “friends” were followed by numerous P.I.s… and yet we were never approached by ethics terminals in the Church before this.
It’s apparent that we were being made an “example” of those who look.
But to be fair, I did have my picture taken at the 4th of July party and across the street from the CB building in front of Starbucks.
And now, I heard I’m declared (we were never notified until Souxie’s email saying are “Golden Rods are inevitable”, we had to contact OSA, which never returned our calls and finally chief MAA at Flag came on our lines via a mutual friend.)from Patrizio, chieff MAA at Flag, as well Sharon Forscher, but I have never received anything writing.
Despite numerous attempts to contact IJC, we have got no comm back. However, we have had many calls from OSA terminals who are gathering more “information.”
So to recap here: OSA got my wife and I fired, got a majority of “friends” to disconnect from us, starting spreading libelous and slanderous remarks about us to our friends and family, we were followed by PIs, received harassing calls from OSA, and, as of about a week ago….I received a letter of disconnection from my daughter…
Yes. It’s true.
And all because I “looked”.
Because I chose to meet Mr. Rinder, I was forced to confront my “Church” up-close and personal. The part of the “Church” you don’t hear about at the events. I realized that my donations to be a Patron of the IAS were now being used against me to hire PI’s. I was living it all those things I had read about from other people who had been declared. In essence, I paid for my own interrogation and harassment… a line I would hear would often as my search for truth continued.
My life has been turned upside down for meeting with Mr. Mike Rinder…
and if I had to….
I would do it all again.
P.S. My wife and I have made a video that we have been sending to friends who are “in” so that we can fill the vacuum of what really happened with some truth.
If you are reading this blog and want to know what really happened to us, send me an email to: firstname.lastname@example.org and I’ll email you a super secret link to the video!
Doesn’t Dave Lubow ( real name is David
Lebeau) have a home and a family? How reckless. Someone could be in his yard doing the same thing he is doing, to his family. It is easy to know when he is not at home because he is on video here filming Mike in Florida. That is gross out security.
Welcome Brett. And thank you both for being real friends and real examples of Scientologists — able to think for yourself, look and question, evaluate information and maintain your personal integrity. We are so happy to have you both as friends — and we can’t wait to see you again soon. And please send me the link to your super secret video! Mike
Hey Wayne Froemke (AKA “Safe”)
What planet do you live on? You remind me of a person who condems soldiers of war and never wore the uniform of a soldier because you were against violence. Of course you want your freedoms but do not have the balls to stand up to the SP’s that create this “Shit Storm” we all find ourselves in.
Please read and duplicate the code of honor. The game Mike is playing is REAL, very real and he has taken a leadership role, so many of us can obtain true LRH tech.
Sam is not the only one who can go “SUDDEN”
Caldwell, that’s exactly what got me started on this track as well. As I started widening my sphere of focus down the track and beyond the US political scene, it got even more interesting. Then, the more I’ve learned about the church’s history and things that are going on now (coupled with what I’ve experienced), the parallels are truly mind blowing.
Marty, et al, it would sure be interesting to get together sometime, once the “microcosm” is handled in whatever way and exchange viewpoints on this.
Thank you for being brave enough to apply true KSW1 and to preserve the tech from DM.
My store is eerily similar with David Lebeau spreading many vicious lies about me. I have also lost my part of my family.
I’m so sorry to hear that your OWN DAUGHTER has disconnected from you.
Talk about a cult managed with threats and fear. Not my idea of the first step to a world without war, without insanity where honest beings can…….you know the rest!
REFORM. Cancel Disconnection!! Reinstate the proper F/N. Let people go free with Standard LRH Tech!
Oh, and the tech out of the C of S rocks!
For what it is worth Erlich was a thug of a Cram Off, and I was crammed by him, he was a carbon copy of Jeff Walker and others I am sure can add many stories about that guy.
I don’t know the details about Erlich after his SO days, though I know he brought about a new day with the internet, and Marty has responded clearly that he was disposed in quite a well fasion from RTC at the time. But, Erlich clearly picked the wrong decade to make his move. And he as an earlier poster pointed had his own faults.
Loved your itallics on”routed out of the SO” (i.e not blew) -me too.
The 3rd Video seems to have no audio to it, tried reloading it etc. but did not work for me….
An honorable man you are. Thank you both for joining our ranks. We are lucky to have you guys in the Kingpin club. And HELL YEAH! for making a video. You guys are rockers, through and through.
Much Love – Christie
I have been reading Marty’s blog & Mike Rinder’s saga for some months now and this is my first post.
I am very impressed with the way that both continue to unravel DM’s continuous harmful evil intentions and actions to where he is being declawed gradually and soon to be made powerless.
I have been at odds with the non LRH motions that have been slipped in at the opportune times by the DM machine and I along with many others suffered the imposed consequences for my non participation or forwarding of them by the DM machine .
There are many out there that are in this category I am sure and your day to be free of this PTS condition of paying homage to a suppressive winning valence is coming sooner than later as Marty and Mike state.
I have been in LRH’s camp for for the last 40 years as staff and public and I have disobeyed many an illegal order on the premises that”you’re going to shoot me later for following the destructive order anyway so shoot me right now and let’s get it over with” and you know it’s no surprise I always came out better and stronger for following LRH advice in every case.
We do have to start looking at the end game with DM gone and envision that valuble final product I feel.
My concern is for those who do not understand the HCOB Search and Discovery How A Suppressive Becomes One in that over a long period of time under the reign of an SP like this two and a half percenter DM ,the restimulated cases and other SP’s on their case will require some major confronting of evil on their part.
Perhaps having these people look at Exec Series 12 wherein is states ”
A person whose ethics have been out over a long period goes”out of valence”
“They are not themselves “.
I post this because of the deceived staff and public who are resigned to follow their purpose as to why they came into Scientology in the first place and that purpose we now know has been insidiously diverted and harnessed unwittingly to the destructive insane purpose of this real 2.5%er DM the usurper of theta.
While I am not in the limelight with the proclaimed Independants yet I am being effective in the sphere that I deal with in helping to lift the veil of deceit cast by DM and his machine.
While this scum DM is all to visible I perceive that there is something more sinister that has not yet been revealed or spotted so being on the lookout is a vital target for me.
Please let’s remember that all who post here and have took their stand are hardasses that have withstood the onslaught but we do have many, many more out there who will neede help and guidance with the risk of being set up here or there which is a call that I will make willingly.
Oldfox — welcome. Your insight is sharp and valuable. I hope you keep contributing here.
Oh Yeah, Sam! I definitely want you on my side of a verbal or knife fight! 🙂
*waves* of ARC ~~~~~~~~ 🙂
S — sorry. It works fine on mine and Christie’s and a bunch of other people’s. Perhaps it is the file type. That one was shot on a Sony video camera, the first two were on a Nikon Sureshot. I have had a hell of a time downloading and trying to edit these things — because we downloaded the Nikon onto Christie’s Mac and the Sony onto my pc… If someone out there can give some guidance on how to best download/organize/assemble/edit all this footage we would be most grateful! 🙂
Yeah, no audio on the 3rd one.
Great videos! It’s only a matter of time…
I agree with you.
I’m with you on this Sam. Wayne I like a lot of things that you write but I think you missed the boat on this one.
Oh dear. And that’s the best one! 😉 See my pathetic plea for help in response to Sinar. I dont have a clue how to solve this.
Youtube is always good unless you dont want to use that for some reason. When you upload to Youtube it converts it to their format and pretty much anybody can play it. Then you just copy and paste the embed code in the blog entry.
It works fine on mine as is.
For those itching for something DO that will have an impact right now… you may not be aware of it yet but Heber’s 75th birthdaay is coming up on October 30th.
If you click on my name above you will find a “project” already started for things we can do to make it a very special day for Heber and also to raise awareness of his plight. Heber is a symbol that will impinge on veteran public and staff. They’re all wondering where he is too.
(email@example.com for info if you have trouble accessing the project)
I say lets make a lot of noise about his absence!
I like what I’m seeing and feeling from everyone with these recent events. I sense we’ve moved into a new zone as regards our willingness to do something. That is wonderful to see and be a part of.
Historic times my friends.
Erlich wasn’t clean. If you are not clean and honest the Church will destroy you, if you are an enemy.
Kind of like in the Lord of the Rings. Dennis couldnt carry the ring.
“Why was what Erlich did wrong?’
Because it was against the law?
For starters, the Tone scale.
ARC doesnt only mean high ARC.
Some creepy douchebag sitting in front of your house with a video camera is not above 2.0 for sure. A cheerful and friendly response is not correct. I think how Mike handled it was pretty spot on.
It could be an instructional video.
Mike! Very Very Well done for these videos. This way everyone can see what is going on with the PIs. And what is so great is that they are obviously no match for you! I just love this.
Been speaking with an old old friend this week who was one of my first terminals in Scientology. He doesn’t have a computer, so I have been filling him in. He is very wise and theta. He is also off lines, but very much still a Scientologist. Will be posting some of his originations.
Also, sending a little $ via snail mail for Daniel. Even if legal is handled I figure he will need other things including a session or 2.
Hugs to all you guys dealing with the harassment. Thank you for fighting the good fight.
Probably my favorite quote in the video, too~!~~ Love it…. Keeping going Mike!
Discovering the hundreds of deceptions surrounding the government’s story about 9/11/01 and Building 7 was an AWAKENING which led me to becoming aware of the many deceptions in the Church of Miscavige. After more than 20 years in the Church, I finally looked at the isness of the scene.
This blog has been an important source of information for me.
Audio on #3 works now.
It’s fixed now. Sony’s often act weird. Sometimes they have their own proprietary file names, even though the format is the same. It could have been the PC, though. Macs are way better overall and especially for something like video. One way to troubleshoot it is to upload the Sony video to the Mac and see if it handles it differently. Maybe something to try in the future, ’cause it seems handled now.
And you’re right, #3 is the best one, you totally shattered his sleezy, 1.1, half-ass comm. His TRs are like a bug’s.
I love this Phil Spickler video.
get a grip “wayne”, this ain’t “never never land”.
I sent you an email. I think I know you from Clearwater a few years ago.
Brett, Thank you so much for your report. The truth is being reported on this blog. I am confident that the heinous crime of disconnection will be discontinued soon. The amount of postulates and action going on in that direction from this group of OTs will bring about its Actual cancelation.
Man oh man, is that Lubow guy a repulsive sleaze bucket or what? He doesn’t seem very bright, can’t the church boys do better than him?? It’s just mind-blowing that they stoop to the level of licking dog turds off the sidewalk in the false name of ‘protecting’ their ‘church’, when they are the ones destroying it and creating their own terrible PR.
This is the Land of the Free and the Home of the Brave! I live a half hour from you and I AM OT and if you need any reinforcements to add even more power to the strength of your confront of these mindless worm-whores, let me know and I’ll be there. Seriously.
You and your wife are heroes! Thanks for standing up. I am soooo sorry about your daughter disconnecting from you. Your family and friends will come back after the dwarf is in jail.
It takes major confront to LOOK after all the indocrination that we have all had to not look. My opinion is that the thetans that are truly alive, able and OT are the ones that can look and not listen. You and your wife are all that.
Thank you for this site and if you need anything, just say so.
Thank you my fellow Scientologists. My friends, it’s an honor to support you all.
You have my respect.
I started paying attention to Scientology back around 1993-94, back at the time when Helena Kobrin attempted to shut down an early internet forum for these discussions (a.r.s.). I, from the SysOp side of that time, and many of the Old Guard have been saying consistently that we would regard a “reformed” Scientology coming into existence a Win. Seeing come to pass is really a kick lol…
I am curious about one thing at the moment: I’ve often been told that you can “take what works and leave the rest”, but I hear that anyone who actually did this in practice would be in for “Heavy Ethics”. Comments?
That is funny!
Instant Karma’s gonna get you! wtg Mike, good job dealing with that little bully jr.
I was kind of with you until, what?
“Marty and Mike usurping the power that was left by LRH.” WTF?
Never crossed my mind. One thing I have learned from the Miscavige fiasco is that Scientology’s days as a centrally controlled religion are over. I think Marty and Mike and Tom and the whole team are doing “God’s Work,” and I mean that sincerely. But they are not the boss of me! Nor I them, that’s for sure.
The very thing you are talking about here is really a form of jujitsu – using the enemy’s force against them. Just let them slide on by, and let them fall on their asses – which it seems Mr. David Miscavige and team are doing quite nicely these days.
When Mr. David Miscavige is finally removed from post (he has been on post since the early ’80s – that is many, many lifetimes in the SO. He is WAYYYY overdue, just on principal alone!) the rest of the organizational BS of the church will go along with him. We are looking at a smoking hole of what will be left of the CofS when Mr. David Miscavige gets the boot.
Do I relish it? No. Should never have happened. But this is what happens when you let Home Sap get the reins of power for too long. The One Ring corrupts, does it not? So, the way forward is to sideswipe the issue, and essentially, go “confederate.” Certainly not centralized. At least have several rings, with none to bind them!
(Sorry for the Lord of the Rings geekitude – but somehow appropriate! 😉
Yes you become what you resist. By that notion Mayo became alsoo Interpol. Marty hasn’t got Interpol after him nor all of these other agencys.
“On August 4, 1994, Scientology(tm) utilized INTERPOL, the US DEA (Drug Enforcement Agency), and the DNCD (Dominicana Nacional Control de Drogas) to try to enforce Scientology’s(tm) religious beliefs on me, to persecute me and to get me jailed by false allegations to INTERPOL. INTERPOL had received and acted on a report that I was “practicing Scientology(tm) without a license”; that I had “destroyed Scientology(tm) property”; that I was “representing” myself as a “Scientologist”. Ventura Bayonet, head of the Dominican Republic DNCD said that he decided to act as a result of a phone call from INTERPOL alleging that I had damaged “millions of dollars of Scientology(tm) property”.”
15 years of international shyte turned on his head with no end in sight.
Alsoo Ask Mike Rinder. He was at the other end of the stick at that time.
Dave Lebow does seem to be out of PT or something. Not quite aware of whats going on around him or what things mean.
This guy seems smarter:
Sound on all videos is fine.
If you are having sound issues, try clearing your browser cache and refreshing. It could be a corrupt download (no, not the birth of DM when he was born).
Make sure your Adobe Flash player is up to date as well.
Centurion (A/V Qual HFA)
This is unbelievable. I mean, I know it is true, but it is unbelievable.
I feel like (to use Ron’s saucy simile) a virgin in a whorehouse sometimes. The whorehouse, of course, being Mr. David Miscavige’s creation, the CofM.
Except, whorehouses are a lot nicer.
Brett -more power to you. I will soon be harassed, too, I am sure, when we come out.
“Tom Theo Klemesrud was born in Thompson, Iowa to Glee (1909-1986) and Theo S. Klemesrud  (1902-1995).  His siblings include, Judy Klemesrud and Candace K. Klemesrud (1947-1989), both whom are deceased. He attended the Thompson Community High School and graduated from the University of Iowa in 1973 with a degree in film production. He is a member of the University of Iowa Presidents Club. In 1974 he attended the USC School of Cinematic Arts graduate program for one year.”
Well done, Mike. Love the videos.
Tiziano and Jamie – thank you for doing this, and for helping Danny.
So, how can I get my own set of PIs? I am almost looking forward to it.
This comment is meant for all those who responded with, perhaps, some anger to my comment, not directed at you specifically, Loki. 🙂
I totally understand how this incident can produce anger and a feeling of righteous indignation, and the temptation to treat violence with more violence. The apparency is that there is “justification” for doing so.
Responding with …
“What the fuck are you doing? What are you, a pussy?”
… is not nonviolent or compassionate communication, and I promise it was not effective if the intention was to create peace, versus retribution … more intimidation.
Of course, clearly, David practicing intimidation on Mike was violent. I don’t have any fuzzy thinking about that. However, to treat intimidation with more intimidation is not the way to defuse violence. It may hold it back temporarily for awhile, but it won’t actually defuse it.
Is the INTENTION to make peace? To be a peacemaker instead of a peacebreaker? Nothing ever good results from telling anybody how wrong they are or what they are. That is treating violence with more violence.
Would Gandhi have treated this situation the same way? Is this practicing “ahimsa”. Two of my role models for people who have proven themselves in how to create peace out of a violent situation is Gandhi and also Marshall Rosenberg.
I would ask, how many here have actually studied and practiced Marshall Rosenberg’s nonviolent communication? Unless this is the case, I can understand how what I have said may feel unreal right now. However, once the information is understood, I believe my comment will make a lot more sense, after that.
Nonviolent communication is the same as compassionate communication. If the intention was in this arena …
“Out beyond ideas of wrongdoing and right-doing, there is a field. I’ll meet you there.” – Sufi poet Rumi
… the outcome would have been more peaceful.
“In the world of judgments, our concern centers on WHO “IS” WHAT. – Marshall Rosenberg.
Saying, “What are you, a pussy?” is a perfect example of the last quote.
“Life-alienating communication, however, traps us in a world of ideas about rightness and wrongness—a world of judgments; it is a language rich with words that classify and dichotomize people and their actions. When we speak this language, we judge others and their behavior while preoccupying ourselves with who’s good, bad, normal, abnormal,
responsible, irresponsible, smart, ignorant, etc.” – Marshall Rosenberg
I’m reminded of the intention of scientology by what LRH said 50 years ago …
“Scientology is the only game on Earth where everybody wins. So let’s help the world win.” – L. Ron Hubbard
WHAT WE EXPECT OF A SCIENTOLOGIST, HCO BULLETIN OF 10 JUNE 1960
WHO really won from the communication in these videos?
Your “Who ya gonna bring to be ‘the man’?” comment was priceless!
You’ll always be an Aussie, mate! 🙂
You handled well and I applaud you.
DM is (at this time is completely) Unaccountable and is pushing the envelope….
+++++He is unaccountable to shareholders, as under the pretext of “religion” not a BUSINESS, tho’ he has it set up to gouge money at every turn and it walks, talks and quacks like a business.
+++++DM is unaccountable to the 3 Boards of Directors, CSI, RTC and CST…
WHAT “Board of Directors”
++++Unaccountable to the members and contributors still drinking the Koolaid although I have reports that even high end supporters did not like this Daniel Montalvo escapade. This usually adventurous incident is running counter to conduct even swallowed by the devotees.
There were 2 Roman Emperors that descended into intense madness Nero and Caligula. Their cruelty, extravagance and extreme domineering/domination showed them to be insane tyrants, even by Roman standards at the time which was very permissive. While those around complied with orders, their insanity was visible all around. Caligula began demanding he be worshiped as a Deity and God…..appearing in public dressed as various gods and demigods. He demanded super respect to his Horse who’s name was Incitatus. This Horse was named not only a citizen of Rome, but a member of the Roman senate.
But it is the descent into the insanity of ATTACK, FAIR GAME, HARRASSMENT, INTIMIDATION, BLACK OPS emanating from a point of power that shows that even a madman can get others to comply to his will.
Wow, on how history repeats itself……
Two questions one may want to consider … (I have wondered about these in regards to the CofS disconnecting from a compassionate nature, then I looked at myself, too.)
“I have been preoccupied most of my life with two questions.
What happens to disconnect us from our compassionate nature, leading us to behave violently and exploitatively?
And conversely, what allows some people to stay connected to their compassionate nature under even the most trying circumstances?”
“I am thinking of people like Etty Hillesum, who remained compassionate even while subjected to the grotesque conditions of a German concentration camp. As she wrote in her journal at the time,
I ‘am not easily frightened. Not because I am brave but because I know that I am dealing with human beings, and that I must try as hard as I can to understand everything that anyone ever does. And that was the real import of this morning: not that a disgruntled young Gestapo officer yelled at me, but that I felt no indignation, rather a real compassion, and would have liked to ask, ‘Did you have a very unhappy childhood, has your girlfriend let you down?’ Yes, he looked
harassed and driven, sullen and weak. I should have liked to start treating him there and then, for I know that pitiful young men like that are dangerous as soon as they are let loose on mankind.’
— Etty Hillesum: A Diary.
While studying the factors that affect our ability to stay compassionate, I was struck by the crucial role of language and our use of words. I have since identified a specific approach to communicating—speaking and listening—that leads us to give from the heart, connecting us with ourselves and with each other in a way that allows our natural compassion to flourish. I call this approach Nonviolent Communication, using the term nonviolence as Gandhi used it—to refer to our natural state of compassion when violence has subsided from the heart. While we may not consider the way we talk to be “violent,” our words often lead to hurt and pain, whether for others or ourselves.” – Marshall Rosenberg, in his book, Nonviolent Communication
My Cram for bozo PI’s:
Observation: pathetic presence and lame reasoning.
Solution: Full TR’s retrain, get a life, investigate real criminals.
Pre-requisites to the above: go fishing for a week or so, re-think things over.
P.S. Change your ring tones to something less lame.
And don’t forget to turn off your cell phone/s off while fishing.
Those things can be VERY distracting.
It’s rife in the UK too. All dug into the police, social services, government, business (especially financial services), etc.. Like it seems to be in the USA, people are asking ‘What’s going on?’. There’s just been an inquest about a scary killing of a man by police. The British police have always been admirable in their restraint – even at the height of the IRA troubles. On numerous occasions I was amazed how they managed to end an armed standoff without anyone getting hurt. The latest case (in London) however tells a different story. A lawyer was drunk and had a shotgun and saying ‘I’m not bad but I’m going to die.’ Police wouldn’t let his best friend or wife talk to him, telling them ‘we’re afraid he might kill himself’ (makes sense?!). The police command structure was ‘confused’ and the guy in charge wasn’t told ANY of the mitigating circumstances – like that the man’s wife was sure that she could calm him down, the police had told her to switch her mobile phone off, the man seemed to be trying to send messages to the police saying his mobile didn’t seem to be working. After the police killed him they found that the gun was unloaded and the safety catch on.
I hope Daniel is ok and the Family, freinds and loved ones come to their senses. Alot of love is being missed there.
On other matters as mentioned before elsewhere you just need 6 or so Rinder/JB situations running throughout the year and most of the Co$’s cashflow will dry up.
So keep speaking out, so those wonderful “Private investigators” get paid and help the economy.
Sadly the folks who “donated” think that money is being used to better the world somehow.
I have to say that the video’s here are real awkward to play, i had to mess about quite a bit..
perhaps you could upload them to youtube? i’d be happy to directly host them on fairgamestop.org as well
All the best dealing with the footbullet crew
LivO, Oh ye of little faith. You don’t know these guys, do you. Having met Mike and Marty I can tell you without reservation that that is NEVER gonna happen. The end game has begun, and it will get uglier yet no doubt, but if the skin-crawling, bumbling Lebow is really the best Dear Leader can offer, it may finish faster than anybody thought.
I thought they should have an opportunity. I also love Marty’s blog & Mike Rinder’s SAGA. Regards, John
P.P.S. From American Russia with Love. No 1.1 intended. Just a music message.
That’s one seriously sharp observation Caldwell.
It has nothing to do with what video camera you are using or the editing software. Using imovie on a mac should make it rather easy to edit. All macs come preloaded with iMovie when you buy them. The problem is with videopress or one other sneaky thing which is someone (OSA) has hired someone to jam and bug the links. Very simple, you overwhelm the links by clicking on them a gizzilion times and the traffic can’t be handled on the servers. You start to get missing pics, missing sound on the files, etc… I would always use youtube for your videos as they have the server capacity to handle all the traffic.
I’m sure Mr. Rathbun would respect the wishes of anyone providing assistance to Daniel who didn’t want to be identified.
I see a bright future for anyone inventing an effective “Squirrel-Be-Gone” anti-PI/Nut spray… 😉 Daniel (or anyone seeking sanctary) would be more than welcome in my little hovel. Mosquito-tolerance is set at zero ’round these parts…
It’s known that C of M and Republicans go hand in glove but who is learning from who? Government has wanted Scientology for population control since its inception but only got a chance after LRH was gone. Until 1993 they fought but since then government started to favour C of M. If Davey exchanged some reverse Scientology to the Government, it’d be a win win situation for both. Psych and street drugs skyrocketed to just about half of the American population, making industry rich and preventing new recruits into Scientology. Davey has been able to amass huge wealth while Government could build a police state with a world wide highest ever of more than 1% of its population in prison. Chronic world wide tone became fear while NSA and CIA getting unlimited funds to increase volume and intensity. Laws were enacted that could force every American citizen to get vaccinated or be send to camps while Pentagon labs were stacked with enough vaccines to effectively kill off 9/10th of the worlds population. The lies were made so flagrant that nobody could believe them to be lies with Davey’s decade of experience proving it conclusively to Government. The only ones bright enough to expose the true dangers and enlighten world leaders were swamped by GAT, Basics, Recycling, F/N’s, Idols, Vultures, over the top mortgages, etc. Davey, private investors and industry got overwhelmingly rich while 2 million Americans lost their home each year and every government ww almost went bankrupt, setting up for uncontrolled rebellion and chaos. If Davey had been intelligent he could have pulled it off but fortunately it takes more than just money and heavily restimulated ev purps to seize ultimate power.
Hmmm… there is certainly something mosquitoesque about Lebeau (French for “the beautiful”; ah, the irony… 😀 ) / Lubow. However, not having seen what he looked like before, I am immediately struck by the startling resemblance between him and a certain late Mr. Heinrich Himmler – check out this link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heinrich_Himmler – it’s uncanny.
Wow! Surprised Heber’s that age – he looked so youthful and full of zest last time I saw him (but that WAS a couple decades back).
Making an older man like Heber “crash” on one bed or another from night to night, while being bullied by that insane punk Miscavige – makes my blood boil. Now I know why Heber hasn’t bailed yet – he’s too old to trade punches, run and hop fences! He just lacks the physicals to do the “Get Outta Int” Decathlon. He is EASY to keep in the dungeon.
David Miscavige – Ron’s unindicted murderer.
Brett, what a story! I just sent you an email asking for a super secret link to your video and thanks in advance for it. I hope you and your wife are doing well these days.
If you were being more effective, rather than rubber-necking and gawking, we’d get to see you in action in similar circumstances. But, alas, that apparently will never come to pass.
How the hell is somebody supposed to go up the tone scale with this garbage?!
Of course it would not occur to your former boss just to let you and Mike alone. But if he had a brain in his head that is what he should do. Is he addled enough to think he can scare you into hiding in a closet?? He works against his own interests. What a fool. Anyway, all of this makes damn interesting reading. Lebeau is pure slime, I met him only once, he didn’t think I knew who he was, but I did. I wonder how he got out of Nigeria alive? Best wishes to you and yours, Bob Peterson.
Thanks for you story. I’d love to see the videos.
Cured Robot wrote, “Lubow says to Rinder, “Anytime you want to sit down and talk man to man”, Rinder says “Who are you going to bring to be the man?””
The language of jackal response makes me sad. My own need is to see the needs of both party’s fulfilled, and for there to be no more harassment of independents. I look at Lubows invitation to sit down and talk as a missed opportunity to open up dialog with compassionate communication, and an opportunity to move towards peaceful resolution for everybody.
Thanks for these specific ideas, David. I’ll be buying Heber a 75th birthday card today! Action, movement, coordination. Works for me.
Indeed. Very historic.
For any of you out there who doubt that there is some very workable things found within the subject of Scientology, take a look at what is happening right before your eyes.
You’ve got Rinder and Rathbun as exemplary examples of putting some to use.
And by the way, who gives a sh*t how long they do what they’re doing?!?!
It’s their lives for cripes sake. While some might consider it is their cross to bear, they’ve long ago passed the point of “above and beyond” and are operating solely in the realm of doing what’s right.
A man is left to his own devices at that point, folks.
Instead of trying to assign them your leader (BTW: the action of any assignment of leader causes me some concern) just let them get on with it.
They’ve lasted long and gotten many excellent products albeit there were others before them who plowed some fields.
Here’s what I love to see happening:
The application of certain principals found in Scientology about how to operate or get some things done.
From safe pointing an area (their neighborhood) to…what…lifting DM’s skirt up and showing the underpinnings of how what he is doing is contrary to a sound mind applying the principals found within the same writings or advices?
Now you throw in that Mike and Marty (and all the others who are assisting in a myriad of ways) have never let go of what THEIR ORIGINAL INTENT WAS and…Bingo!
You have history.
You are watching the systematic piercing of four inch plate armor right before your eyes.
what a wild story. Hope that your daughter will take a thorough look herself VERY soon.
All the best
I have no doubt the horse was more desrving of what had been bestowed upon him than the man whose fat little ass was hoisted up on his back.
Makes you think of DM’s dog doesn’t it?
BTW: Can you imagine how many good horse trainers this guy must have beheaded much like DM “beheads” his staff?
How could you possibly anticipate all the ways this idiot would act when riding this horse? You couldn’t work the horse through that many scenerios.
The job was a death sentence I’m sure.
I have great respect for the things you’ve posted. And great respect for your approach to understanding life. So, bear with me on this.
First, I understand the WTF about usurping power. I didn’t say that Marty and Mike are doing this. I’m saying that on other discussion boards, this is a prevailing belief, a persistent belief. Belief is just opinion. And it isn’t my opinion, just a comment about someone else’s opinion.
Now, about the power issue. Yeah, jujitsu deals with lower level phenomenon of which I’m writing. But, I’m talking about way, way up. I’m talking Q material rather than axioms. How does theta really create energy? How does theta really create force? In the axioms, LRH talks about imposing space between terminals, and mocking up particles, and alter-is and persistence. But, how does a thetan actually create energy? How does he create something out of nothing? And is theta really “nothing.”
Theta is not “nothing.” Theta is something. Theta operates at a very, very fine wavelength. And from that wavelength certain phenomena can originate. One is awareness. Knowingness. And a lot of other things that become A and R and C and U. And then location, space, energy, matter and time.
LRH talks about a pyramid of data, with the highest data explaining the data below it on the pyramid. He talks about the possibility of data existing above the level he’s addressing. He doesn’t say that his axioms explain all phenomena above those axioms, above the Q’s, above the pre-logics.
So, back to jujitsu. I’m really talking about using DM as a terminal to generate energy and ideas. In jujitsu, you are trying to neutralize your opponent’s energy; you are trying to nullify it by redirection. And that is a great technique. But, it also reduces rather than creates energy.
If you want a lively discussion, take opposing ideas that remain in opposition. Energy and ideas will multiply with vigor. Want a short lived conversation, just agree with no opposition at all. No opposing terminals to generate energy.
Why do you think LRH picked opponents to vilify? Didn’t that seem a bit strange? He did it to generate ideas and energy. Think he couldn’t confront psychiatry? Think he couldn’t confront all those world bankers?
Back to LRH and leaving power. Jesus left power which spread far and wide. Buddha left power. Muhammed left power. It’s about establishing terminals, imposing space, creating goals. But none of those ideas would have spread without barriers and opposition. Life is a game filled with barriers. Take away the barriers and you have a no-games condition. And life loves a game. Life is not interested in removing barriers. Life loves a good villain. Makes things interesting. Makes ideas and energy persist.
Before I wrote the preceding post, I debated getting involved. I just knew I shouldn’t say anything. I just knew I’d have “some esplainin’ to do Lucy.”
But, what the heck. Embarrassing myself has never been a deterrent to speaking out.
When in doubt, communicate, huh?
What I saw in the above video’s is not scientology. Nobody won here. All I could see were two alpha male ego’s trying to outwit and outintimidate each other. It’s just more of the same unnecessary quarelling that has been going on for a long, long time.
I invite David Miscavage or David Labou to come on down to my place, anytime. We’ll do a video for an example of compassionate communication. I, admittedly, still need more practice at nonviolent communication, and they would be a real acid test for me. 🙂
If one cares to see a living master at compassionate communication, check out Marshall Rosenberg. He’s delt with a lot of violence in his life, and has positively handled it so everybody wins.
Scientology is about everybody winning, isn’t it?
So I know if I don’t see everybody winning while they were with a practicing scientologist, such as in the above video, it is not scientology being practiced, clearly.
What tech is this?, “What are you, a pussy?”
I understand Mike Rinder is your personal friend, and that it’s perfectly natural and honorable to want to defend his behavior, even if it is violent communication.
I believe you and I are observing the same thing. I felt only sadness watching these videos. I don’t see how everybody won here. In fact, I don’t even see any ANYbody won here.
“And the rest of us had better invade every activity there is on a high level of success and make our influence felt on the comm lines of the world.
Scientology is the only game on Earth where everybody wins.
So let’s help the world win.”
– L. Ron Hubbard
What happened here is NOT scientology.
I never used that word you question me about. You never responded to the two words I did use. You asked what tech is being used. Certainly not the strange stuff you keep extolling the virtues of here. Your “non violent” comm is getting more and more 1.1.
Looking good Mike!
The instant response team that is trying to derail this thread is very telling, as are your videos. The TOPIC is DM’s CRIMES, FRAUD and ABUSE.
Yes, he has hired mis-directors (PI’s), and a Lie Factory (OSA Int) to blow smoke, but these vids turn the pure disinfecting light of day on the “man behind the curtain”. All through his history, he has accused others of his very own crimes….out-2D? Look no further than David Miscavige. Financial Irregularities? DM. Squirreling? No bigger squirrel than L’il Dave M….all the way back to his incomplete Class IV Internship at Saint Hill, where he attacked a PC in session, reportedly.
So his hired cap gun is investigating you for “mortgage fraud”? LOL. At first I thought it was a chosen topic because of the current real estate climate…..but really, with all of these Idle Org’s idling (some being bought at Millions of $$’s ABOVE market value), it must be one of his core withholds….so thanks for bringing another one to light.
I loved seeing this video too! Phil, you see how much company you have in your love for LRH and his legacy now. DeMon will go down. A castle built on sand cannot withstand the shitstorm that’s parked above it. Smile as there is a whole new wave of fresh troupes to carry out the long overdue task of exposing DeMons corruption. The future resurge in actual Scientology is imminent once the truth is exposed in all it’s ugliness. In the meantime, find a pc and audit, audit, audit 6, 8, 10 hours a day….
Wayne — All I can say to you is that Little and Littler Dave wish that everyone would act like you claim you would act. And everyone IN Scientology does just that. They would never lift a finger in protest at the physical, verbal and mental abuse that is dished out, they just peacefully sit around and take it. So, to that extent, you are forwarding their agenda. Guaranteed you are their favoritest poster here right about now. Now that’s something to be proud of!
Thanks Tom. Sorry to have mssed you last time I was in your neck of the woods. Won’t repeat the mistake…
Marty wrote, “I never used that word you question me about.”
What is that “word” you’re referring to? I’m not clear what you’re saying. Clearly, I never claimed you said the following word(s), “What are you, a pussy?”
I could be unclear about this, but you seem to be defending this violent communication of Mike’s. If nothing else, by the ommission of acknowledging that it is violent comm.
What I asked you was, “What tech is this?”. It’s definitely not scientology tech, nor is it nonviolent communication tech. So what is it? I see only jackal language, no tech here.
I’m surprised and also sad that you apparently don’t see the value of nonviolent communication as a tool to connect to another compassionately, and instead, believe it’s “strange stuff.” I view nonviolent communication as insurmountable tech for resolving conflicts and misunderstandings in a compassionate way, to create peace.
I don’t understand why you don’t see it this way, too. Perhaps it’s “strange stuff” to you because you don’t really know what it is yet, and have not applied the concepts to real life. Perhaps you’re not used to communicating at a feelings and needs level. That’s my guess. I could be wrong in my guess though. You tell me, if you would. Can you explain why you believe nonviolent communication is “strange stuff”?
Also, you said, “Your “non violent” comm is getting more and more 1.1.” Aside from being a generality, can you give me some specific examples of why you judging my comm to be, allegedly, “more and more 1.1. comm”, please?
I’m not clear why you would make that evaluation. I thought I’ve been pretty explicit in my communication. If I haven’t, I better bare down harder on my writing skills. lol. I need to understand why you appear hostile about my own communication, along with the subject of compassionate communication which is successfully used to speak in a language of peace.
I’m confused, frustrated, and sad that I’m not connecting with you about what I’ve been trying to say. I feel misunderstood because it doesn’t seem like you’re open to listening and knowing what nonviolent communication really is, which surprises me to think, especially if there is any possibility in using it for faster reconciliation with CofS.
Can we agree that we’d like to see peace happen faster than what is now happening? I want all this crap to be over. I believe you do too, right?
Aha. I just figured out a place where you took me literally and perceived my communication as 1.1 when I wrote …
“I understand Mike Rinder is your personal friend, and that it’s perfectly natural and honorable to want to defend his behavior, even if it is violent communication.”
I wrote that tongue in check. It was supposed to be slightly funny, but apparently, I didn’t pull off that writing very well to communicate that. Maybe I should have added the rolled eyes right after it. 🙄
My “bad”. 🙂
Safe — I would recommend you study some LRH tech — read Science of Survival and decide what Tone Level you think Little Dave and Littler Dave are in. Then pick a tone that is 1 to 1.5 higher on the scale and decide what that is (2.5 maybe?). Then practice being in that Tone Level. Drill it a bit so you can actually act in that Tone Level.
$30,000 to $50,000 SPENT PER DAY
That’s $1,250 to $2,083 per hour.
Divided up between a few PIs and attorneys and David Miscavige’s management fees, of course (SO members working on the case surely don’t get paid).
Quite a bankroll to keep up!
A word from LRH on the subject:
“… I detest having to discipline anyone for anything, particularly a Scientologist. And the only discipline I use is to hold the fort until people are Clear enought to see the light. They always do. all misconduct comes from aberration.
However, if anyone is getting industrious trying to enturbulate or stop Scientology or its activities, I can make Captain Bligh look like a Sunday school teacher. There is probably no limit on what I would do to safeguard man’s only road to freedom against persons who, disdaining processing, seek to stop Scientology or hurt Scientologists.
I well know Man’s fixation on trying to make “everybody good” which means, really, inactive. The best men I have had in wars routinely have been continually arrested and generally frowned on by “shore patrols”, “military police”, etc. To the body politic, a quiet person is the ideal. When the guns begin to go, these quiet ones are all hiding and only the active ones are there to fight. I often wonder what would happen to a state if it did aheive its apparent goal of making one and all inactive little sheep…”
THAT is LRH.
With all due respect Wayne, if you wish to find a platform to extol the virtues of ‘Marshall Rosenberg’ the I suggest you stop pretending it is Scientology and start up a new religion. Perhaps you could call it ‘sheepology’ oh! oops! silly me! forgot! DM already did that 😦
A good friend of mine was preaching the exact same party line that you are forwarding here. He was prepped beforehand by OSA.
Nice to meet you, Brett. Sad to hear how this came down though. Hang in there.
Get your IAS donos back – you were tricked. Hit DM where it hurts. PIs and attorneys won’t work for free. Public will tire of being cannibalized.
I used to think it was terrible to take money from CofS and its staff…but realized whether there’s money there or not, staff are still mistreated and starved, abused, denied the tech.
Try the button HD upper right hand corner
Like many other things in life, Scientology is what you make of it. The more you study it from every angle, the more you will see that it is the most compelling subject of our time. It is a collection of ideas which happens to contain many useful tools. I am very happy that I got into it, even if I got ripped off by a “church”. “Heavy ethics” is just other determinism, and is a manifestation of the reactive mind. If some crazy person tries to “put your ethics in”, just remember that this is a very old and aberrated game.
You said: “I want all this crap to be over.” (Yes, you said some other things, but that’s what stands out for me.)
If that’s what you really want and if by ‘crap’ you mean the unpleasantness, the nastiness, the antagonism and instead you want peace and quiet and good roads and fair weather, then yes — your approach could work for you.
However, others here, including me, have different goals than that. Our goal isn’t just to speed as fast as we can to the goal of ending all this messy ‘crap’ (as I’ve defined it above). We want safety and justice and civil rights and the right to live our lives the way we want to without being Big Brother’ed and intimidated by A GROUP THAT MUST BE AGREED WITH.
But more than this — if you really, really, really feel that you could improve the situation in front of Mike and Christie’s house and do better at this than they could, then why don’t you move down to Florida and take up a position out there. Bring a lawn chair. Bring a video camera, so you or someone else can record your superior efforts in dealing with the hired criminals who are harassing them. Show us how it should be done.
Remember, you wouldn’t be negotiating with co-workers or family members or anyone who has a vested interest in coming to peace with you. Put the keyboard down. Hit the sidewalk. Put your eyeball on. Give it a shot. I know they could use the help.
Aha! 🙂 Now I see where I’m not making myself clear.
The confusion lays in getting docile and passive behavior crossed up with nonviolent communication.
Most everybody in the CofS are practicing docile and passive behavior (from a position of fear and intimidation) and so are ineffective in their communication about the outpoints in the CofS, if they communicate about them at all.
Nothing could be further than the truth for one to think that nonviolent communication is passive, whatsoever.
NVC (nonviolent communication) is aggressive (but compassionate), specific tech for handling conflicts. It’s designed to forward EVERYBODY’s agenda (needs).
I’ve found it is “The Way” to peace.
If both Dave’s wanted to sit down with me and communicate, I’d say, “GREAT, let’s get our heads together and discuss our feelings and needs, and THEN work out a strategy to fulfill those needs so nobody is losing, everybody wins.”
I would discuss this with them using compassionate communication tech (NVC) until all can get their needs met, again, so everybody wins … which is the intention of scientology.
The game where everybody wins … THAT’s scientology.
All the bickering and quarelling I see is simply a tragic expression of unmet needs.
It’s easily solved by first finding a comm line, and then applying nonviolent communication tech. It’s close to the non-existance formula, except for the added tech of applying compassionate communication.
1) Find a comm (communication) line.
2) Make yourself known.
3) Discover what is needed and wanted.
4) Do, produce and/or present it
Where is this being done by independents with CofS and CofS with independents? Where is this being applied by CofS with critics of the church? Where is this being done by management within CofS with church members and staff?
The process of discovering what is needed and wanted (#3) is done by the specific processes of nonviolent communication tech. It’s the most peaceful way of discovering needs and getting agreement I know.
I’m really trying to get away from “enemy images” thinking. It doesn’t serve my survival. For me, the truth is, nobody is really an “enemy”. One’s considered so just have unmet needs and the idea of “enemy” is only an apparency.
Unmet needs can cause one to stray off and do non-survival things. So how do we get everybody’s needs met. THAT is the question.
I would, at anytime, be thrilled to help negotiate a peace treaty with CofS anytime, and end the constant bullshit and warring going on both sides.
If there is continual use of NVC, that quality of comm will eventually move things in a positive direction. I have a long, long list of unmet needs to present to the CofS whenever they are ready to listen. 😉
To compassionately communicate, or not to communicate, I know which one indicates to me for everybody to win. 🙂
Tom, brilliant observations, as usual.
Wayne, You haven’t learned a damn thing and apparently don’t wish to. As the only poster on this blog who agrees with you is a bona fide OSA troll (whose posts I allow occasionally just to see who gravitates toward him), I think it is time for you to find another forum. “No responsibility is the inability to handle force. Responsibility is the ability to handle force in the MEST universe. And that is the definition of responsibility and that’s all there is to it.” – LRH, PDC. When you have demonstrated you can handle the slightest bit of force, you can petition to return. I suggest a gruelling, but non-violent of course, round of TRs the hard way. Good luck.
Apparently, you cannot restrain your 1.1 traits even when admitting to a “bad”. Adios.
Safe Said: “I invite David Miscavage or David Labou to come on down to my place, anytime. We’ll do a video for an example of compassionate communication. ”
I admire your stand from a purely philosophical, idealistic standpoint. But later, when you’re digging the knife out of your back, you might lose some of your enthusiasm. You can’t reason with a rattlesnake.
I understand what you are getting at regarding non-violent communication. It’s really easy sitting at a computer with time to ponder the response and arm-chair-quarterback every action that “took” place.
For instance, in Dn 55 LRH says sometimes it takes a solid comm line to get through. Perhaps Mike really should have slapped little Dave upside the head and screamed with total intention, “Wake the F_ _K up, Dave. You know Miscavige beats people, why are you defending him?” The slap may have jarred little Dave into PT enough to actually confront the magnitude of his overts against people of good will.”
The Nazis, in case you are unaware, did not quit murdering Jews because of nice people with non-violent communication.
While it is essential to rise above the GPM game of terminal-opposition terminal in order to be truly free, one must be able to handle force in order to this. One doesn’t win by slinking away from force, he wins by handling it with equanimity.
When faced in real-time with vicious suppression eminating from a person dramatizing real, sleazy evil, one is likely to flinch. I personally thought Mike did an excellent job of confronting and handling it.
Your comment, “The language jackal response makes me sad,” is very telling. While professing to be a Ghandi-like gentleman of superior wisdom, you yet inject a 1.1 slur into your own communication. And then it appears you move the tone into the grief area by being sad, apparantly inviting him to sympathize with you and thereby gain agreement.
No, Mr. Froemke, Mr. Rinder and Mr. Rathbun et. al. are doing an excellent job of confronting evil. They are doing an excellent job of making it safe for others to use the tech unimpeded by certain suppressives. They are doing an excellent job of paving a highway out of a nasty cult which the Co$ has become.
Karen #1: “But it is the descent into the insanity of ATTACK, FAIR GAME, HARRASSMENT, INTIMIDATION, BLACK OPS emanating from a point of power that shows that even a madman can get others to comply to his will.”
You omitted EXTORTION. I have spent a great deal of fulfilling time at the Pac Base over the years, but the current level of frenzied “regging” has left me stunned. I was last asked to contribute to the operating costs of the facility on Olympic. I am firmly convinced that my refusal to turn over any and all funds on demand put the bullseye on my chest, irrespective of the fact I was a Class V org staff member .
Goes to show there’s a lot of truth to the motto: “We come back”
That was spot on Sam. I had been thinking of that exact reference over the last few days. Not in reference to Wayne, but just generally. It is one of my favorites from LRH. I never have like it when I see the lame and weak criticize the strong and effective especially when the strong are trying to defend everyone including the lame and weak.
Wow LDW!! Where did you come from? That was a kick ass post.
That was gold, pure gold…
He likes to watch!! LOL!!
Interesting comments to their updated story on Daniel.
Nice foot bullet DM. Is this what you planned for?
Excuse me if these links have already been posted:
Awesome wikinews interview with Amy Scobee ….
Also, more on topic with the ongoing situation, a rather amusing addition to the previous LA Weekly article popped up today….
I did not make or originate the reports on Erlich. If you noticed, I mentioned they came from his brother-in-law and in the case of Byrne, from his wife and there were several ethics officer interventions which apparently did not work. You can find other reports of Byrne being a bully on the net. Neither one of these people ever bullied me nor did I ever personally see them bully others. I heard plenty of verbal reports of Erlich doing such. One was from DM himself who was physically thrown out of Qual when he did his first ever mission as the mission second to Susan Walker. Dave was exasperated (we were walking down the street together) and said, “Jeez – what do you have to do to get anything done around here!” He apparently found out. I believe these to be dead-on accurate or I wouldn’t have mentioned them. You would have to go into the files of the Church to get any real verification. I mentioned this to help clear the air. As for Erlich and the internet, that is all self-explanatory and I was not commenting on that.
To me, you seem judgemental and overly so. I did not say that it was a crime to be highly critical of LRH, either on this blog or elsewhere. You are saying that I was when I said no such thing and now you are stating that is not a crime.
I’ve already said elsewhere that there is a dark side to LRH. Problem is, there is an incredible bright side too and that has been neglected by the public and by the CofS.
As for being a friend of teh Independents, YES! I am a friend of independent thinking and I am a fan of what Mike and Marty are doing. Qual trains you to be a friend of most everyone and to help them. I also knew LRH better than most. There are those who were much closer to LRH than I physically and on a day-to-day basis. Many of these people, however, had a relatively infantile grasp of the technology of Dn and Scn and this gap created a certain non-recognition and consequent difficulties which, over time, grew into the travesty we all know today. I also know LRH’s dark side better than most, but I wasn’t there when he “kidnapped” his own kid or supposedly “drooled” while watching the overboards.
I apologize that I am not comfortable revealing my identity but I do not feel that it is appropriate right now.
R U kidding me?! You obviously don’t live in the real world and are in some subcranial zone, u need to get a clue and a life.
I like your desciption the most.
You live in a dream worrld.
LDW said: “Your comment, ‘The language jackal response makes me sad,’ is very telling. While professing to be a Ghandi-like gentleman of superior wisdom, you yet inject a 1.1 slur into your own communication. And then it appears you move the tone into the grief area by being sad, apparantly inviting him to sympathize with you and thereby gain agreement.”
Really excellent observation. Thanks for that, LDW.
Wayne, you probably won’t be able to reply to my reply for a while – but here’s one thing – you DO sound like a priest giving his blessings to the soldiers as they march into battle well knowing they will be slaughtered and you are criticizing the father for beating the shit out of a man while ignoring the fact that he was saving his daughter from being raped.
To cause a betterment, you have to be CAUSE.
What you see in the replies to your usually overly long comments is annoyance at a “priest” telling them to cause nothing and to be “good” but not effective.
Study the causative guys in former East Germany that brought the people onto the streets (they happen to be priests, by the way) – violating any rules, laws and commands of an oppressive government and see what they caused – a wall fell, families and friends separated for decades reunited – in peace.
We want a wall to fall and families and friends to reunite and to be free to raise to greater heights.
Peace with you, brother Wayne.
How is this to happen without the removal of DM? Is he capable of cognition? Can he make Ethics Change? He won’t go into session. He obviously doesn’t believe in the Tech. Splain to me Lucy!
Yes, you can “take what works and leave the rest,” but the process of like this (or should be):
Someone reads a book or talks to someone about Scientology, and get a piece of the Tech – something like the concept of ARC or the Tone scale, or the communication cycle, or maybe Self Analysis – there is a lot to agree with. At this stage, a person is in discovery mode (my term). People read, apply it to their lives, discover things that work or things that don’t appear to work.
People can be in and stay in discovery mode for a while – hanging out at the mission or org, having coffee with friends, perhaps even engaging in what we used to call “coffee shop auditing.”
The “Public” division of a Church is all about this situation (or should be).
When someone starts a Dev 4 course, which is starting the road to technical training, then it is assumed that you have agreed with what you have learned so far. When you are on a course like the Student Hat or the auditor levels (Levels 0 through 4), you are there to learn the technology and how to apply it. The agreement made when starting (implicit), is that you will learn it as it is on course, and apply it as learned, whether you agree or not. Ideally, in your studies, you will clear words and concepts, demonstrate key points, and drill, drill, drill. Then, when you apply it, you can see what happens, and gain certainty from the application.
When you are on Level 0, say, you are not there to philosophize about it, or deconstruct it, or try to reconcile it against Tibetan Buddhism or est, you are there to learn it. If you learn it and apply it incorrectly, you will be “pink-sheeted” (if you are on course) or “crammed” (if you have already graduated). This is normal – I have no idea how many pink sheets and crams I have received in my career. You look at what the issue was, look up and clear the references, and understand what was misapplied, and how to apply it correctly.
If you really, really feel that what you are learning and trying to apply is incorrect, despite word clearing and demoing and drilling, well, yes, if you are on a Div 4 course, it becomes a problem. You certainly can’t graduate the course if you disagree with the contents (or, at least, if you can’t apply the data). You can challenge the course – I have done this. It is all within the context of the tech, though. You won’t get far if you challenge a key concept of Scientology because it appears to conflict with the Gospel of Luke.
Scientology is not a “Chinese Menu” where you can choose one from column A and one from column B. But it is not really an atomic whole that you must swallow in one sitting, either.
Really, what happens is that you begin to see how it all fits together, and when you audit someone and see how it works, it becomes obvious.
For example – did you see the “Pinch Test” Marty did on John Sweeney? The meter is supposed to only measure skin resistance, and it has nothing to do with the mind. It is supposed to be a “crude lie detector-like device.” According to detractors. So, how do you account for the first reaction, when the “pinch” happened, and for the exact same read on the meter when Sweeney recalled the pinch? He thought something, the meter reacted exactly as it did when the pinch was “laid in.” I’m not trying to sell you on this, but I will say that when you get good at using one of these things, the people who detract the meter look like absolute buffoons.
eddie, it is a complicated question. At the end of the day, you get to the point where you know a majority of the technology and you know that it works, and when you are trained enough, you begin to see the gaps and what needs to be addressed, or more importantly, which tech is the most important. You factually cannot be in “lock-step” with everything Ron has written, because Ron himself has deprecated a good bit of technology.
One of the most influential bulletins I have read is an HCOB called “Styles of Auditing,” in which Ron talks about the progression of an auditor from neophyte to expert. At Level 0, the auditor basically sits and listens: “Listen-style” auditing. At Level 1, it is ROTE. Do it exactly as written. At Level 2, you have “guided style” where you interact more with the PC and start to guide him in session. Level 3 is “Abridged Style” – this is when you cut to the chase and use only what you need. Up to this point you are not really ready for this, because you don’t have the skills. Level 4 is “Direct Style” – where you cut to the chase and zero in on very precision stuff. If you don’t agree with the meter here, you need to go home.
Up to Class VI, which is “all style,” which is the master level.
You were a SysOp – tell me that you haven’t seen the progression of a techie’s skills from “shut up and sit there” to “I can reconfigure the production switch at noon on Tuesday with zero downtime” (well, maybe just a little blip 😉 ) as they learn their craft and become capable.
So, when you are first looking into it, you can hunt around and decide what you like. But, once you learn enough, you either are or are not a Scientologist. Hope this long-winded answer helps! 🙂
It is that attitude that made the evil of the Cof$ fester for so long.
I am pretty left of center in my views but I am going to use this metaphore: PLEASE stop hugging trees Wayne.
“If both Dave’s wanted to sit down with me and communicate, I’d say, “GREAT, let’s get our heads together and discuss our feelings and needs, and THEN work out a strategy to fulfill those needs so nobody is losing, everybody wins.”
You probably live in never never land or some other magical far a way elven kingdom.
‘I don’t know the details about Erlich after his SO days, though I know he brought about a new day with the internet’
I would tend to give more credit to Netcom and the Support.com BBS that refused DM’s demand to cut Erlich off, and were sued for their refusal. Had they buckled, we would have had a worse situation today as it pertains to IT law.
Erlich’s voice would have only been his monthly newsletter, “The inFormer.” Not that that would have been a bad thing 🙂
To all who NAG about Mike’s communication in the videos.
Your APEACEMENT ATTITUDE is what keeps dictators in place.
You’re getting way too complex with this NVC tech. It’s an unworkable fantasy.
What’s called for is a simple and therefore powerful, understanding and practical application of the use of the ARC triangle.
Ha ha, good image.
The answer of how to handle resistance is in Judo. Use the strength of your opponent against him.
This will look very familiar to you guys. Yes, the amazing thing is that this villain is actually a SQUIRREL!
Made with Blender: free, open source Animation Software for any platform.
From a purely non-scientology view I can appreciate your idealism for non-violence confront since one of the goals of scientology as I understand it is a” world free of criminality and hate” (paraphrased).
Part of what I do for a living is mediation and negotiations. For two opposing parties to come to a table and have a discourse on their “needs” as you put it, first and foremost both parties have to agree that while they have competing interests there is a common middle ground and are ready to acknowledge the other party’s position as having merit. You need to be able to empathize with the other’s position sort of the proverbial “walk a mile in my shoes” kind of vibe.
There is no common ground here as it is clear that even the shared subject of scientology is not defined by either party as the same. One has used it to promote a corporate, profit making, top to bottom view of the world. DM is at the top of the pinnacle and his word is law onto the land and woe be unto the ones who dare to dissent to that opinion. The other is a bottom up, open source, inclusive view in that each individual is responsible for his/her own interpretation and it is shared openly to others who are free to take it or leave it, but at the very least it is not an imposed system. One party (DM) has made it well known by its words and actions that there is no win win scenerio here. DM sees only one outcome and that is to win at all costs. Whether that means the destruction of the CoS, LRH, the tech, or individual scientologists in or out of the church, critics, anons, exs, etc. matters not to DMs agenda. For him there can only be one. He can’t be negotiate with. He cannot see anyone as an equal. He cannot stand an opposing view nor a dissenting voice. He must “crush” those he feels are a threat to his survival. And he will sacrifice and even walk on the remains of those who still support him to achieve that end. He thinks he is infallible and as such this will become his ultimate downfall.
Wayne with all due respect to your skills you could not sit down with the Daves and be on equal ground. Even if such an event would take place it would only be as a means to find something to “cave” or destroy you. You are nothing in Demontology’s eyes. A mear speck of dirt to be rubbed out.
Just look at what they did to Daniel. He cared not one iota for Daniel’s future. Only what he could use Daniel for to get back at Marty, Mike et al.
Jeff made a great post on the whole routing out process. It has nothing to do about helping an SO transition to the regular world. It’s all about imposing “conditions” so you don’t come back and become a problem for the church. Keeping you quiet and subsurvient through intimidation and threats. It’s behavior reminiscent of the Mob. Keep your mouth shut if you don’t want to be wearing cement shoes mentality but it works.
So once again Wayne I admire your idealism but sometimes you have to stand up to the bullies and while I still profess to non-violent means a little “backbone” in your face stand up and don’t back down tech is quite effective.
Wayne Froemke if you are so sure that you are right why don’t you join the Church. You can meet Dave yourself and flow Theta towards him at one of those wonderful and classy event.
I DARE YOU TO JOIN THE COS
Still no sound for me. 😦
Bravo Once Upon a Time! Now we are getting down to bedrock! Games are made up of the white hats and the black hats. Your side is always the whites! Good and bad alike considerations. We are in this for fun, challenge and above all for experience. Where do you want to put your focus? Freedom is the willingness and ability to be on any level of the idea spectrum.
Where do you want to play and what do you want to play. Lebow and the DM crowd are not playing the “TRUTH ” game they are playing the “FOLLOW THE LEADER” game. “HE IS OUR LEADER” AND MAY HAVE FAULTS (THAT WE IGNORE) Actually we NOT-IS the possibility that he has faults. We are LOYAL to him or at least to his position. We will not get rid of him but if by some thing another gets in in that position we will follow him and forget the “OLD LEADER”.
You’re pretty much correct. Based on two Hubbard policy letters, Safeguarding Technology and Keeping Scientology Working, there is an ingrained, expected operating basis that if you do not agree, do not go along, do not apply the materials EXACTLY as written, and do not come away with the agreed upon philosophical viewpoint, then there is something wrong with you and you need to be fixed through word clearing, ethics, auditing, sec checks, restudy, PTS handling, or something. That’s the way it is.
Oh yeah, the credits are worth sitting through …
“Who are you going to bring to be the man” ? That’s pretty damn good stuff Mike. Nice job keeping cool in the face of all this.
This is a real good point and one I have certainly thought about myself. Some situations are so bad and low that punishing bodies and death are relatively high. While you are obviously a great deal higher toned, the group situation is pretty grim. Those in the hole are in hiding with the prospect of possibly going into total hiding.
Hilarious! And appropriate music, too.
Update on London police….it’s in the Guardian (one of the national newspapers) today that the Metropolitan police (ie London) have been lobbying the government to make them immune from lawsuits, including employment tribunals. They say that this will save them a lot of money…..
Lubow showed up outside my house last night too, camera running.
I talked to him for an hour (we also took video of course) and I was really surprised to find out (a) he is working for RTC per his own statements and (b) he claims to be a Scientologist. I personally had not idea of the latter!
Of course he swears he is not swayed whatsoever by these two facts and is conducting his investigation with no bias at all, at all.
While we should keep our guards up and be smart, its very apparent we’re dealing with a very incompetent outfit – I bet Dave Miscavige wishes he had Marty and Mike on HIS side right about now!! LMAO!
Karen – As you may recall, it was the praetorian guard, Caligula’s personnel security force, that murdered him. They did it for the good of the people. This is only history repeating itself. As Buddha said, “Those who do not remember history are condemned to repeat it.”
I knew you on the ship and remember when you joined the Sea Org. We were not particularly close but you were so in communication that you always felt like a friend. I knew both Heber and Yvonne and would like to dialogue with you. It does not belong on the posting board. Please email me when you can at firstname.lastname@example.org
I do not agree that a solution can always be found that will be beneficial to all parties and satisfy their needs. Perhaps the only thing that really would is getting all parties audited up to the point where they are not aberated in their thoughts or, their intentions, or their actions. I strongly believe we are all basically good, but often need help realizing that state.
Here is a little story of how negotiations can go horribly wrong, though seemingly “satisfying” each parties needs.
One day, in the fall of the year, there was a hunter and a bear in the same part of a wood. At one point the hunter and the bear enter the same clearing. The hunter brings his rifle to his shoulder and aims it at the bear, and is just about to pull the trigger when the bear says ” Whoa there. Not so fast. lets talk about this for a moment. I am sure we can come to some sort of compromise here.” The hunter, being a reasonable sort, decided to hear the bear out. The bear explained that all he was doing was looking for food for the winter. The hunter told the bear that he needed a fur coat to get him through the winter. So they sat down and communicated. They communicated throughout the day and into the evening. At last it was all handled. The bear left the clearing alone and the hunter was nowhere to be seen. The bear left the clearing with a full stomach and the hunter was “wearing” his new fur coat.
That depends on your interpretation of the law, and that depends on your interpretation of stealing. If you bought a book and reposted some of what it said, is that really stealing or is it sharing? Copyright law is to protect someone’s work from being plagiarized or being sold for profit, and since Mr. Elrich didn’t gain any money and gave proper credit to Mr. Hubbard, I guess I don’t see why anyone would have a problem unless they were from COS. That’d be like posting a copy of the Bible and the Pope throwing a hissy: it doesn’t happen.
These comments expose who is really left in the OSA network — young kids with no life experience outside the SO. Sorry, I’m not going to take it easy on them, unless they wise up and blow.
You think you got hassle/joker and degrader troubles? I only have to mention the name “Falkes” and theirs a helecopter outside my window within three and a half minutes now, here at “salems lot” Not to mention computer acting up.
Wayne as put in some decent production over the past few months in my assessment. He would definately walk unscathed within the castle for a period of 36 hours-which is more than some- pending “Loki” sees no use for him.
I would just love to borrow that blasted tasar for a while around here.
Ditto LDW & Sam – awesome posts!
Perhaps the MOQ can cram WF on the tone scale & non LRH “Violent Communication” tech to the source data, if WF won’t read Science of Survival as suggested.
It’s not a problem. The IAS Anniversary Event is in a few days.
It would be interesting to hear how he presents the ‘attacks’ to the audience while it is ENTIRELY his actions that are causing the ‘need’ for all the PI’s and lawyers.
Maybe the IAS should replace him. Since they are keeping him in the money, they are probably his last strong point.
Expect any efforts to wake up the IAS Patrons to be meet ferociously.
Me either. Keep the advice coming, though.
80 and still kicking.
Mike, the videos played fine for me.
With my pc and my Sony video camera, I use “Windows Movie Maker” which probably is on your computer. (Look at your “Programs” from the “Start” Menu to see if you have it.) This is a pretty simple editing tool. It makes a “wmv” video. Youtube takes .wmv along with other file types.
When you download the video from your camera(s) to your computer, they will go into a folder. Just pull your video clip from this folder to edit. Do not change the name or location of the video file after you start to edit the video.
A free conversion tool is ZAMZAR.
I use it often to change file types.
Sometimes only certain file types for video are accepted on websites. For example: MOV, AVI, MPEG (MPG), WMV
Sinar, the audio should work if you play it in Internet Explorer.
Please see my earlier reply to Mike Rinder on this post. A California PI is breaking the law investigating in Florida unless the investigation originated in California and he spends no more than 30 days on the case in Florida. You could demand to know when they started investigating you in Florida.
Of course, it must also be an actual “investigation,” meaning he is actually trying to unearth some data for some conceivably valid pupose, such as a lawsuit, a child custody issue, or debt collections–not just “keep so-and-so under constant surveillance because that’s what my employer has ordered me to do.” To the extent it is allowed, this is called reciprocity between states. Only a few states permit this. Texas, by the way, requires PIs to be licensed and doesn’t permit reciprocity at all.
You could also ask him what he is investigating. Keeping people under constant surveillance for no stateable, legitimate purpose would pretty surely be deemed to be harassment, invasion of privacy, and the intentional infliction of emotional distress. It is not private investigation but thuggery.
I couldn’t get it to play using Firefox but it worked fine in Safari – might help for any Mac users having problems.
Good one Cat!!
Brett | October 11, 2010 at 1:32 am | Reply
“I would do it all again.”
Amen. A-E? They’d have to offer Commendations for those who walked away from the CoS as controlled by David Miscavige.
Nice site and an important cause.
Anyone attending the IAS event, yes I know, just ask someone if they’ve seen Heber or heard of Heber.
Would you have one of these non-violent chats with Hitler?
If so, you would probably end up in his easy bake oven.
These are SPs Wayne, do you really think they are capable of rationality? Some of these guys are PTS I grant, but they are doing the bidding of an SP.
I would politely warn my neighbors about these guys…head it off at the pass. I am sure you will find friendship there. People dont respond well to nazi techniques. Even your nieghbors have a right to complain.
Sam, A ‘Sudden’ smile!
Hi Once upon a Time,
We like you posting here. You can hang out even if you are above 30. on the tone scale.
Well, I see Mike Rinder totally confronting the guy, which will make him blow off…and he did.
darn, cant hear the 3rd one. good for you Mike confronting those guys.
David Miscavige IS the IAS.
You said… “p.s. The solution to the present time problem lies in the past. And that is simply looking at it.”
Here is my take on that.
In my understanding one can only handle anything from present time. The data that might be vital to a situations resolution may be from the past but that data is only of any use if it is viewed from present time, and applies, somehow, to present time situations. Even simply “as-ising” old pictures or considerations, by simply looking at them, only works because that “old picture”, to some extent, was actually being continually created in present time anyway, knowingly or unknowingly.
I think a big part of the problem that is being addressed here is to help people , from present time, to confront the difference between the past and present of the CofS.
I feel we are dealing with confusion here, where some are confusing the C0fS of yesteryear with the current machinations of the Cof S. The “old” pictures of the CofS are being overlaid onto the current church (or vice versa actually) and the reality of the present time “situation” (greatest departure from the ideal scene) is not being confronted.
Thank you for the part you play in uncovering that confusion.
Lubws invitation to sit down is similar to Montresor inviting Fortunato to have some rare Amontillado sherry. Dont go there.
Wayne, confront of Evil is the lowest confront there is. Sadly, you do not seem up to it.
Michael A. Hobson
I do not feel all that great because I really like Wayne.
But it was my way of a:”Wake up and smell the coffee”
Wayne is both right IMO and wrong. Communication and love are wonderfull but onley if the other is able to value it.
I wish Wayne could really KNOW how David Miscavige views him.
Ah, the flattery of a misplaced decimal point. It’s like getting a check from work for twenty grand that week instead of two. If only you could accept it.
Perfect reference! Thanks for pulling that one up, Sam.
You do realize that in those videos Mike is talking to someone he worked with for many years and they know each other quite well?
I’m sayin’ Mike was being really straight with him in telling him he was headed for trouble.
To me it was a non-malicious warning, giving Lebow a chance to change his course in life before he gets himself in any deeper into lawbreaking behavior than he already is.
What’s wrong with that?
Very well said!
I have only one correction for you:
It’s not Republicans. It is … politicians. Democrats are just as dirty and just as much blood on their hands. Only the blind cannot see.
Really Wayne, you may want to to a break from this blog, you are missing the message and your contributions are so fluffy and mushy I cant believe that anyone is actually taking you seriously. And, I mean that in the most “non violent” way possible. Go chill.
Solomon Burke says it all.
RIP Solomon – we agree. None of us are free until everyone is free!
Free Heber!! And all the others.
Love your viewpoint and the LRH gems you throw into the pot! Makes for a very tasty stew, just a little spicy for those of us who are a bit more adventuresome.
“not a word, not a friggin word”. Whatever do you mean. Welcome back, btw.
Thanks OnceUponATime and Grasshopper for the marvelous discussion. Good stuff. This kind of thing is what keeps me reinspecting my data and tweaking my understandings.
Michael, You my friend are not fooling anyone. You’re addicted. Me too.
I’m going to flow some admiration your way so you wake up to the fact that you are a crusader for truth, justice and the LRH way. Wear your cape and speak out against injustice. This is a forum that will listen to you and you have much to say. Save the book for another time. We need you. Who are we going to argue with? OSA trolls? How droll. You tax the little intellect I possess. And I just love reading your high power dribble. We Love you man and you belong on this forum!
You have to have Kingpin status as bestowed by Dear Leader for your great actions ‘agin him. 😉
Absolutely true, and the very definition of fair use.
What made Erlich’s deal so bad, was he confessed to 69 counts of infringing improperly transferred works, purely to up his ante, rather than free the works into the public domain at trial. He had free lawyers. He should have gone for it. He would have made more money at trial, but fear must have won out.
He was mean and nasty all clear through, which was kind of weird ’cause he was yellow too.
You have a misunderstood on what an SP is. Or false data. Either way, there is a confusion, because the conversation you are wanting, compared to the one you would have are two things that will NEVER be the same.
Sorry Wayne, but go back and find your word. That or go spend actual time with David M. and then come talk to us. There is no reasoning with a psycho, much less “non-violent” comm.
Cheering and laughing at the same time, Cowboy! 🙂
🙂 🙂 🙂
I missed that connection. Thank you for pointing it out. Now that accusation makes sense.
I did wonder, though, why would a church hire a PI to investigate someone for mortgage fraud? In the real world, these two things don’t go together.
Good job Brett and wife!!
You have passed the test with flying colors.
OK, thanks for responding. I understand your point of view on this. Where I find some discomfort is in the question of how “narrowly” I must interpret The Tech in order to pass muster…
And all *that* could mean in the end is that I’m more the kind of guy who belongs immersed in the Philosophical, rather than Administrative, end of the pool.
And thus far, I’ve been quite happy with where I am, that being a “fan” of the aincient mystery schools and the Christian Gnosticism of the first two or three centuries of that school of thought. I have some amusing stories on *that* front to share sometime…
I’ve always been on the record as observing and respecting the “religious” nature of Scientology, while zealously calling out the criminal actions.
I’d wish your efforts luck, but believe Skill would be more useful.
In other words, you just got socks for Hannukah. 🙂
LOL. I’m sure you are right about that!
Your take on the clips is exactly how I saw the situation. Lubow was all over the place, saying they were filming for a ‘mortgage’ survey, then claiming something along the lines of filming people/property without their permission was harrassment (a classic ‘foot-bullet’ moment, if ever there was one). Mr. Rinder appeared polite throughout, far more civilly than either of his ‘stalkers’ deserved.
However the cards finally fall, Lubow and the other shrunken-heads perpetrating these horrors cannot claim that they weren’t warned.
When I press the “HD” button in the upper right hand corner of video three, the audio stops working. When I press it again, audio comes back on. Not sure if that will work for others.
(Using Internet Explorer 8, on Windows Vista.)
YHS: I did see your earlier post to Mike, appreciate the data very much! Very interesting. Tom
(can someone remind me again how to get a youtube video into wordpress? I clicked on share, copied the url and then pasted it into the comment BUT alas, it just gave the link. Less fun.)
Actually, the answer to how you handle resistance depends on your goal and purpose. The techniques of Judo are an approach. Another is to simply dominate the idea, the significance of the event so that the force is controlled before it is employed. I’m only an average sized guy but I’ve been able to back down guys more than a foot taller and well over a hundred pounds heavier simply by dominating the significance of the event–what began as an” I’m-going-to-show-this -runt” became “how-can-I-get-out-of-here?” Just an idea. A changed idea.
I didn’t realize what I wrote would not be obvious. I guess it just needs some study and reflection. Maybe using the word “resistance” has connotative meanings I hadn’t anticipated. Just as “control” has connotative meanings that obscure the value and necessity of control.
Me and my big mouth.
Where the pinch test is concerned, my understanding of this phenomenon is that our neurological systems, being a heirarchal object-oriented system of functional levels (the phenomena of “muscle memory”, or paraplegics exhibiting memory of “walking” in the severed spinal cord are practical examples), will “alert” in anticipation of stimulus the second time around. We then, upon noticing the anticipated stimulus did not arrive, “reprogram” the subroutine, then come to ignore it as we do our own pulse or breathing.
Did I mention that I’m a fan of Arthur Koestler (Ghost in the Macine, Janus, On the Roots of Conciousness)?
I’m also a fan of the Automotive Arts.
Isn’t it nice to be right?
Wayne you are a gem of a guy, thank you for being yourself.
There may be at least two answers here for that one.
One LRH principle is that “if it is true for you it is true it is true for you. Do not ever compromise with your own reality.” That is perhaps best viewed from a Philosophical viewpoint. Do not ever “agree” with something you do not agree with. It is recommended you look to see if your understanding is actually based on real data.
A second issue is with the Technologies of Scientology and Dianetics.
The concept of “take what works and leave the rest” is most suitably applied to your own life and actions. If you are applying the technologies within the framework of a “scientology” organization or operation, then you will be expected to either apply the technology correctly or do not apply it at all. It is perhaps like in a job situation where the boss or foreman really insist that if you are going to do the job assigned, that you do it according to the way you were trained or otherwise you would be sabotaging the final products. If you cannot or will not do it “right” you need to move on and find something you can agree with. That is ultimately your choice.
I will bet that most of the “indie” scientologists here are here because within the current church they found that there have become Technological and Philosophical changes made that have demonstrated that they were not able or willing to do the “job” as assigned by the current church or its administration. They have “moved on”.
All the neighbors think they are dirtbags.
I didnt post what my neighbor said to them as he called the police as he doesnt like being photographed (he made LaBlow erase any footage with him in it on threat that he would break their camera if they didnt). It was quite hilarious. So, dont be concerned about the neighbors…
And the neighbors didnt miss the fact that they would know nothing about alleged mortgage fraud on someone else’s property? They knew it was just a pretext to get a foot in the door to spread BPR. One of the things they were showing the neighbors was a report from the Pinellas County Sheriff’s Office about Tom DeVocht (and he certainly has nothing to do with supposed mortgage fraud on our house). As a favor to the LA County Sheriff’s the PCSD had gone to Tom’s home to ask him about his involvement in “stolen property” (Daniel Montalvo’s). Of course the PCSD were not too happy when they found out the real story and will be even unhappier to learn that a PI from the CofM is implying that he is working on an investigation the PCSD is conducting into Tom DeVocht!.
LaBlow is making serious mistakes — dont be surprised if he shows up back in LA soon as he is run out of town. LaBlow is like a long-tailed cat in a room full of rocking chairs (and he needs a change of clothes too — he has worn the same shirt 3 days in a row).
That was good.
LDW: Field Goal from the 50 yard line!
Michael A. Hobson
Wayne’s conversation with Dave & Dave:
A sheep and two wolves sitting down to discuss what’s for dinner.
Excerpt from the Dumbleton-Powles report (NZ)
Formal steps are taken to declare persons as Suppressive Persons. The commission had presented to it many such “Ethics Orders”, an example of which is the one delivered to Mr and Mrs O’Donnell (Grandparents of Virginia Stewart – OSA ANZO). This was as follows:
HCO ETHICS ORDER
No: 3056 AK
To: Those concerned
From: Ethics, Auckland
Mr Frank Patrick O’Donnell and
Mrs Stella Marjory O’Donnell – Condition of Enemy and
Declaration as a Suppressive Person
Mr and Mrs O’Donnell of 95 Clyde Street, Hamilton, are hereby Declared Suppressive People and Enemies of Scientology for the following reasons:
1. Attempting to suppress individuals from attaining total spiritual freedom.
2. Using the medium of Truth newspaper to achieve this knowing them to be an Enemy of Scientology.
3. Declaring their intention of joining a group known to be Enemies of Scientology.
4. Not to be communicated with in any way.
5. Not to be trained or processed.
6. Their associates are declared to be Potential Trouble Sources and are not to be trained or processed until they have handled or disconnected from Mr and Mrs O’Donnell.
7. The formula for a person in a condition of Enemy is “Find out who you really are”.
When this formula has been followed evidence should be sent in writing to the Ethics Officer.
Ethics Officer, Auckland.
A more unusual Ethics Order is perhaps the one issued to M. J. Mahoney, the editor of Truth. This was as follows:
HCO ETHICS ORDER
Reissued at St Hill
18 March 1968
To: Those concerned
From: Ethics, Auckland
Subject: Declaration of Suppressive Person and Enemy to
The Editor of N.Z. Truth, J. Mahoney of Wellington, is hereby declared to be in a condition of Enemy and a Suppressive Person for condoning the printing of articles detrimental to mankind in the newspaper called Truth.
1. Which is seeking, by printing articles which the totally untrue, to turn people away from Scientology when this organisation provides at this time the only means man has to free himself from a cycle of warfare and insanity which has been prolonged for an insufferable amount of time.
2. Which perpetuates and has done so for years a policy that is suppressive to mankind.
3. Which perpetuates lies with loaded communication.
4. Which has used he lives of two teenagers to satisfy a personal opinion about something this newspaper knows nothing about Scientology, and paying no regard for the fact that they have ruptured the lives of these two teenagers who sought to free themselves from an environment that they had found intolerable. (Reference article appearing in Truth dated 22 February 1968.)
5. Which is contributing to the destruction to the freedom of the press by constantly publishing one-sided detrimental, restimulating and hideous articles in relation to the electorate of New Zealand.
6. Which seeks to sell quantities of newspapers and makes money thereby abusing the privilege of a licence to communicate the existing condition to the electorate of New Zealand and choosing rather to write slanted stories on conditions of life that are aimed to restimulate the reactive minds of people and have them buy newspapers by compulsion rather than freedom of choice.
7. Which aims to make money from the people as a senior consideration to providing them with factual communication.
8. Which confuses the fact that having a licence to communicate to the people and for the people about the people is the freedom of the press, with a money making, truth destroying, lie perpetuating, power hungry policy, as freedom of the press. Thereby totally abusing and destroying the long-dead myth of freedom of the press.
9. Which seeks to destroy maliciously and with lies a philosophy like Scientology which is aimed to bring spiritual, mental, and physical freedom to man and seeks to free mankind from complete spiritual oblivion.
10. Which seeks maliciously to conceal from man the truth about the mind which as been available for years since the evolution of Einstein’s theory of relativity which established conclusively that energy has mass and hereby provided further data directly related to the mind that thought created energy and therefore produces mass, mental mass, and has enabled further research to produce the exact structure of the subconscious or reactive mind.
11. Which has made a prolonged and chronic betrayal of the people of New Zealand who have placed their trust for guidance and communication through the medium of the press.
12. Which condones a policy which allows articles to be published with-out ever being willing to publish without distortion the other side of the story.
13. Which contributes by the nature of the articles printed in the newspaper called Truth to the grief of mankind and attempting to close the door on man’s only way out – Scientology.
14. Which seeks through reporting frequently matters of sex and violence to restimulate its readers to such an extent that most decent people will not have his paper in their home.
15. Which by insistence on printing only one-sided reports on Scientology whilst knowing full well that here is also another side to the story and whilst knowing that Scientology is one of the fastest growing organisations in the world which fact obviously has only come about through the fantastic results obtained by hundreds of thousands of individuals throughout the world. Therefore because this newspaper considers it only worth while to print the opinion of a fractional minority to the exclusion of the majority a full public apology is required.
Because of the above reasons the editor of the newspaper called Truth, J. Mahoney is declared a Suppressive Person and an Enemy of Scientology. He is:
1. Not to be communicated with in any way.
2. Not to be trained or processed.
3. His associates and employees are declared Potential Trouble Sources and are not to be trained or processed until they have handled or disconnected from J. Mahoney.
4. Contributing in any way to the continuation of this publication by a Scientologist (this includes buying or selling) also constitutes a Suppressive Act and anyone so doing is hereby advised of this.
5. The formula for a person in the condition of Enemy is “Find out who you really are.”
When this formula has been followed evidence of this should be sent in writing to the Ethics Officer.
HCO Secretary, Auckland
“If you find yourself critical of this – look for the misunderstood word.”
A Scientologist who is a Potential Trouble Source may not be processed or further trained until he has taken appropriate action to cease to be a Potential Trouble Source. Until November 1968 the method usually adopted was for the Potential Trouble Source to “disconnect” from the Suppressive Person, but by the Code of Reform of 29 November 1968 the practice of disconnection is alleged to have been canceled, and the Potential Trouble Source and Suppressive Person are now supposed to be dealt with by “handling”, meaning persuasion. This practice of disconnection will be referred to more fully in a later stage of this report.
A further weapon in the Scientologist’s armoury was the “Fair Game Law”, under which a Suppressive Person became “fair game”, meaning that he might not be further protected by the codes and disciplines of Scientology or the rights of a Scientologist, thus permitting aggressive behaviour by a Scientologist towards such a person. This practice has also been discontinued.
This question of the apparent change in the outlook and policies of Scientology, particularly concerning its dealings with the public, is of considerable importance. On 1 August 1968 an executive directive was issued by Hubbard, requiring all orgs widely to circulate a public questionnaire within their country. This questionnaire asked what reforms should be effected in Scientology organisations, what changes in the conduct of Scientologists, and what services could Scientology perform in the community. This questionnaire was distributed “World Wide” and, although the answers were not available to the commission, it is significant that
the Code of Reform, which has already been referred to, was published on 29 November 1968. This was as follows:
THE CHURCH OF SCIENTOLOGY OF CALIFORNIA
THE HUBBARD SCIENTOLOGY ORGANISATION IN
Founder: L. Ron Hubbard
Telephone: 362-921 (4 lines)
150 Hobson Street,
CODE OF REFORM
1. Cancellation of disconnection as a relief to those suffering from familial suppression.
2. Cancellation of security checking as a form of confession.
3. Prohibition of any confessional materials being written down.
4. Cancellation of declaring people Fair Game.
If you yourself have observed any further aspect of this Church’s activities that you feel calls for reform, please let us know.
29 November 1968
THE ACADEMY OF SCIENTOLOGY
THE HUBBARD GUIDANCE CENTRE
Board of Directors:
Leaka Marenkovich, President
Julia Lewis Salmen (U.S.A.), President for U.S.A.
Anthony John Dunleavy, Vice-President
Kenneth Milton Salmen (U.S.A.), Vice-President
Kenneth Eric Urqubart, Secretary
Denny Louise Fields (U.S.A.), Secretary
Resident Agent (N.Z.), Eunice Henley-Smith (Laurisee Stuckenbrock’s mother)
(A non-profit corporation in U.S.A. Registered in New Zealand)
The commission also noted that Hubbard, in an HCO policy letter of 7 March 1969, states that the organisation is going “in the direction of mild ethics and involvement with the society”. “After 19 years of attack by millions of vested interests, it seems that new policies evolved have ended in reform for severe internal disciplinary systems. The policy,” he says, “which cancels the policy of disconnection, cancellation of the fair game law, the cancellation of security checks, and no records allowed on confessional materials, plus the new code of a Scientologist, have accomplished every reform suggested to us. Let’s get the show on the road.”
This changed outlook was apparent from the evidence of Lady Hort, the Assistant Guardian, who quite frankly stated that some of the cases which had created difficulty – such as the Morris and the O’Donnell cases – could not now occur under these revised rules.
Because of the hierarchical structure of Scientology and the extent to which policies and directions were issued from above, it seemed to the commission that, if practices which had been regarded as objectionable could be cancelled by fiat, they could also by the same fiat be reintroduced. This problem was put to Lady Hort, who undertook to communicate with L. Ron Hubbard and obtain some assurance as to the future course of Scientology in this respect.
At the adjourned hearing in Wellington, Lady Hort produced a letter which she said was signed by L. Ron Hubbard. This letter was as follows:
L. RON HUBBARD
Saint Hill Manor,
26th March, 1969.
The Commission of Enquiry into
Scientology in New Zealand.
With regard to the practice of disconnection, I have taken this up with the Board of Directors of the Church of Scientology, and they have no intention of re-introducing this policy, which was cancelled on the 15th November, 1968.
For my part, I can see no reason why this policy should ever be reintroduced, as an extensive survey in the English speaking countries found that this practice was not acceptable.
(Signed) L. Ron Hubbard
L. Ron Hubbard
Bottom line, Eddie. When you study Scientology as an Indy, imho, you have all the freedom in the world to apply “Personal Integrity” and “How to Study Scientology” essays when, where and how you want. In fact, you will/should be encouraged to.
You can find a summation of the latter essay on Geir’s blog here:
Except, OTDT, the policies of Keeping Scientology Working (KSW) have been grossly and broadly applied by the CoM to apply to EVERYTHING ever said or written by LRH on the subject of Scientology or Dianetics, and this is simply nonsense. The concepts of “KSW” and “Standard Tech”, as per LRH, apply to the exact processes and techniques of auditing, they do not apply to (a) organizational policy, (b) Scientology’s philosophical ideas or theories, or (c) even such basic principles as the “Third Party Law”. People are free to agree or disagree with any of these as they wish. The only time “KSW” and “Standard Tech” apply, is when we are talking about the practice of auditing and auditor training, and their techniques.
Your reference is RJ68. More here:
Remember the scene in the original Karate Kid movies (I forget which one exactly) where the old Oriental guy is being accosted in the parking lot by the thug owner of the rival dojo? And how he avoided the first punch by moving ever so slightly aside?
“Best way to avoid punch. Not be there.” Or words to that effect.
I may have the details wrong, but you get the idea. If the opposing force is not overwhelming, you can deal with it by resisting it directly, deflecting it or redirecting it so it disperses elsewhere. Or as-is it so it goes “poof!” and disappears. All methods are valid and circumstances will dictate which one is appropriate at any given time.
This may or may not even be related to your post, just some of my thoughts on force and resistance.
I love this series of Phil Spickler’s videos too.
I believe it was Phil who disseminated to the SRI crowd (Hal Puthoff, et al) in the San Francisco Bay Area back in the 60s and 70s, and I believe it was also Phil that originally got Tom Cruise interested in Scientology in the mid-80s when TC was married to Mimi Rogers. (Mimi’s birth name is Miriam Spickler — Phil is Mimi’s dad.)
Phil is certainly a powerhouse. And very human too.
Sounds like LoBlow is saving every cent of Dear Leader’s big pay as he knows it might not last much longer.
Me three. Perhaps YT upload might be a good solution, if possible.
OT VIII wrote: “David Miscavige – Ron’s unindicted murderer.”
David McSavage was not allowed anywhere near Ron Hubbard after he went away to Creston Ranch. Neither was Ron Hubbard murdered, according to the available documentation ( the coroner’s reports and related investigations are available on the Web ). Furthermore, we have a poster here on the Board who was present at Creston Ranch at the time who witnessed the final Will and signed the Death Certificate – Steve “Sarge” Pfauth.
Ron Hubbard died of a “cardiovascular accident” (a stroke). He had suffered several of these before. There is nothing mysterious about an elderly person dying of a stroke.
Michael A. Hobson
“I would discuss this with them using compassionate communication tech (NVC) until all can get their needs met, again, so everybody wins … which is the intention of scientology.”
And just when you think that “everybody is winning”, you will find yourself in jail, now with a criminal record. Why? Because the bastard you just non-violently communicated with, covertly set you up to get arrested.
Good luck with that one.
There’s been several references of Pinch test done on Sweeney on the meter. From the video, it sure looks like a different meter drill to me – perhaps someone could correct me. It seems like a “recall” drill of some incident Sweeny had which he didn’t need to reveal, but would destimulate the more he recalled it.
I feel the same Cat. My point of validating you was that you had the guts to say what was on your mind even to a friend. That is what integrity is all about. Plus you were correct in your views, even more important..
Thank you for taking the words out of my mind. You’ve summed this up so well.
Michael- you and Logan and others…… I quiver with anticipation upon noticing your posts.
Aaahhh. Soothes and excites. Nice dichotomies.
“if it is true for you it is true it is true for you.”
Is this a typo? a “freudian” slip? I’ve always read that as “if it’s true for you, it;s true for you”. Of course, the truth is the “truth” is subjective…
Agreed, Lunamoth. x Plus, I noticed a distinct “nervous swallow” from LuBow at one point in the clips. He must have been paid a shed-load of cash in exchange for his soul…
Thank you for expanding on my thought. Old-timers, like Phil, contribute such a richness to the conversation we are engaged in.
There are times I am utterly lost for words where only the concept is crystallized.
Truth is what continues to be needed and uncovered.
…and, of course, Opinions Vary lol lol lol
we might be good for one another…
That was really hilarious, thanks!
Click on “Embed” then copy and paste it to the reply box with your comment.
ONE MORE TIME, I REPEAT, LABLOW IS ON PAYROLL.
And his chronic tone level matches his job description.
Amazing story, WindWalker – very profound. Reminds me of an old limerick; not especially relevant, but I feel the need to inject some lightness after the “Great Wayne Debate”…
There was a young lady from Ryger
Who smiled as she rode on a tiger
They returned from the ride
With the lady inside –
And the smile of the face of the tiger
Or maybe it IS relevant – to all ‘surfers’ currently riding the Wave of Dave…
Loved the video…..the flyin’ slyin’ squirrel was a purrfect mirror image
Great solution for when we hang DM out to dry…….or…..hehhehhehehehe
Seeing as how he hates Blacks, make sure he occupies a cell with a couple of large ones both named Bubba(so he’s not confused) and they frequent BOMBA on him as frequently during the day as THEY want. Days of screwing Lou will be a distant memory………
Addicted? Yeah, surely. I don’t smoke. That two packs a day was pure metaphor.
As for dribble, if you knew me better you would know it’s drool. I qualified for theta medicaid long before the this universe began. My theta joints creak with rheumatism every time I postulate a viewpoint or push two dimension points together. The sizzle has long gone. More like the susurration of an octogenarian passing gas.
My favorite snip from the five was when Phil said (and I hope I’ve transcribed this right), “The Idea is to be three feet behind the head of the planet. No enemy. No enemy. We’re here to help.”
And they did and they expanded………
was referring to fromke’s comment
Lebow will still be looking in the wrong direction when Marty and Mike’s meteorite hits him below the waist where he appears to be thinking from. If he had two brains, one would be lonely.
Well done Tom stayin’ on your toes. Was good having the brieif comm with you the other day.
and being the sucker for the Iron Man ending as I am, as much as you may have ever felt “man-n-machine” in the finest of sports cars, the enmeshment between ourselves and our rides in this realm i sublime.
Oops! The limerick SHOULD say:
There was a young lady from Ryger
Who smiled as she rode on a tiger
They returned from the ride
With the lady inside –
And the smile ON the face of the tiger
Silly me… 😉 x
eek “is”. not “I”, “is”.
It is absolutely great to see you posting, a veteran and treasured tech terminal, 47 years in the Church, a Class VIII for decades, and in more recent years a STAFF STAFF auditing, simply trying to get STAFF up the Bridge before the savage ETHICS cycle on you and your husband.
You are right, I omitted EXTORTION. The frenzied regging as you call it is daily normal so-what-else-is-new ~~ it is endemic.
What is remarkable is that this regging is not for auditor training or auditing, but to GIVE for no exchange to DM’s off policy “IAS”, Ideal Orgs and so on. It is HARD SELL. It is Vampire REGGING. It doesn’t matter a hill of beans what your personal budget and financial planning is.
DM has boasted he pays for every INT event with the new release, even bragging something like $10 million revenue for Release of the Basics. Of course, only HE did it. The fact that staff were put on SLEEP DEPRIVATION and not allowed to go home til they sold their quota, the fact that staff have to stay well into the night and do all the WORK is not recognized. Only DM does the work…so he claims !
MONEY was indeed EXTORTED for the Basics. An event has simply become a new EXTORTION evening, how much could they suck out ……an embarrassment of magnitude especially when the whole crowd clapped with standing ovations at the bullshit propaganda of Stats in a vertical high and the 150 word sentences of POMP and GRANDEUR delivered in a hypnotic cadence…
..and did I mention that it is my heartfelt opinion that it is not enough you be named in the history books, but that you be regaded a good thing?
After reading the comm from LRH above, DM must be on drugs cause he cannot seem to feel the hot coals he has in his hands for the LRH Orders he’s violating every second of every day. I guess heavy drams of Scotch Whiskey will do that for anyone. Has anyone recommended he visit AA to handle his habit or does he think he’s a highlander with the amount of Whiskey he drinks. There is so much in his system, when he dies it will take years for the body to decompose.
Tom, This blog reminds me of when I was a kid. I’m dating myself here but we used to go to the local theatre for the Saturday matinee.
There were lots of cartoons first but what all the kids came for was the ‘serials’. There was Buster Crab, Bob Steel and Tarzan all getting into trouble and about to be killed when you had to wait(in anticipation) for next weeks episode. Action, drama, suspense. WOW. The ‘serials’ had it all. This blog is like that but its real. Its a real life game. I can’t wait for the next episode. Not only is it real life but we get to participate and affect the outcome. It’s addictive.
Great post Brett,
Welcome to the Indies, I hope you post your video on this blog would be great to see it.
I love the philosophy of Scientology, the attempt to understand life, the spiritual universe and how all this relates to the physical universe. My interest in DM is minimal, just a tick rather than a multi-dial blow down of the TA.
As much as I appreciate the efforts of Marty and Mike and others to handle the problem of DM, I’m really looking at it from a long ways off. It’s the old idea of relativity: a grenade thrown into a room is very important; a grenade exploding in outer space has none. I know there’s suffering and danger, and I want to see this alleviated. But, this world is filled with danger and suffering on a scale that makes this a minor problem.
DM is small fry.
Scientology is not.
But Scientology is not dependent on DM. He really has little or no relevance except as a minor historical blip. So, do I give DM attention, or do I spend that attention on studying the larger picture?
I’ve really enjoyed some of Marty’s recent posts expressing interest in the larger picture. It’s just one of those coincidences that I had decided I was allotting a disproportionate amount of time to something that had little importance to me. I just needed to bypass my bad habits.
I’m sure that Marty would prefer the rabid dog just stop barking because it’s distracting and he doesn’t want the kids to get bitten. I’m sure he would prefer that the dog just rolled over and died so he could get on with the bigger picture. But, he has a dog lurking in the treeline every time he opens his door. He’s got dogs barking under his window while he tries to sleep.
Since Marty and Mike are both smarter than I am, I don’t feel they need my advice. They have my support. That’s all I can give.
And so, I feel a bit like a very distant cousin hanging around the party’s periphery.
My real interests are the vast possibilities of knowledge which Ron and Lao Tze and others sought to understand. And I don’t know that this is the forum for that.
But, thanks for the vote of confidence, Tom. I appreciate it. It was raining today so I had a bunch of extra time.
In the 19th century, as people moved west and the gold rush was in full swing, a new (some would say base) language appeared. Cursing became the norm. A man would walk into a saloon and, rather than saying hello, he would tell the barkeep to pour him a fucking whiskey. Why, you may ask, would men speak this way during the very ‘proper’ Victorian era? The short answer is that language of this sort was an expression of power. In a time and place when life was cheap and a great many were fighting for very little gold, it was an assertion of power and community.
What we see in the video is a DM henchman harassing a former member on the street in front of his house. And what we know about Scientology is that cursing in the norm inside the Org. What you see is Mike simply speaking to the hired help in a language they know. One would not go to China and speak to the man on the street in French. No, one would do exactly what Mike did and speak to the PI in a way that he, and more importantly DM, will understand.
Wonder how many more IAS “regulars” found out about Daniel’s story and the latest footnuke the past couple of days? Also the BBC Panorama earlier watched by 5 Million viewers in the UK.
Perhaps, those won’t be attending under the St Hill Big Top if they have found out about the shyster/PI ongoing circus shows. Dear Leader needs some custom grounding rods to be installed at the Manor if they haven’t been as yet along with the Scotch and hot toddies.
And BTW, can we agree that Scientology is now large enough that there are cliques?
I just saw and heard the third video. Mike you did a superb job of handling that 1.1 peice of shit.
My realization is that for you it must almost be like your talking to DM.
This other dave punk is DM’s little bitch boy. When he walked up real close to you that was an attempt to get you to lay hands on him. There was no affinity so him getting into your space like that was an attempt at getting you to touch him. I would have had a hard time not pushing that slime ball to the ground.
Great on not taking the bait. Masterful handling.
Look for “Embed”, not “share”. Then copy the “Embed” code and use that.
Right about now I’ll bet lil’ DM wishes he had you and Mike Rinder working in the field for him instead of that brainless looser, David LeBlow.
Far from becoming an oracle, DM is nothing more than a tyrannical miscreant – of biblical proportions. Beware, you are working him into a position that he cannot possibly win from, David Miscavige is going to have a meltdown that will be very dangerous to any that are in his immediate area. Beware, you are agitating a serpent that will blindly strike out – over and over – until it is dead.
And then, David LeBlow will probably cry,
before heading over to Mike Rinder’s and asking him for a job!
“Oh what webs they weave, when setting out with intents to deceive.”
I will rest a happy man when the likes of David Miscavige are permanently removed from any and all powers of authority regarding the Church of Scientology.
San Fransisco, CA
Yes. It is he who can replace them if they don’t perform. But I believe they make good money reging.
Ah, then the Little Dave is out looking for justifications then. Mosquitoes out for a little blood to show at the event. Oh the drama queen and his queenies. Puhhhleeeze!
Hehe! Even my 10 year old gets the moral of this story! (The animation is awesome)
There is also nothing sinister or outrageous about a person who has had one or more strokes to be prescribed and administered Vistaril to help control the resulting anxiety. It would be pretty standard treatment.
It could also be true that although Miscavige was not the “proximate cause” of LRH’s death, he contributed to it in the long term by being suppressive towards LRH.
John, maybe you need to take a walk, have a nice dinner, and go see a good movie.
Bozz, I wasn’t talking about “dirt” or “blood”. I was talking about tone and tactics and my observation has been that the parallels are very much with the Rs.
David Lee (aka Robert Clarke aka Ron Christopher), whose real name is David Lebeau, or David Lebow, is one of the names that pops up in the critics’ database: http://www.xenu-directory.net/news/library.php?t=David+Lebeau+%28aka+David+Lubow+aka+David+Lee+aka+Robert+Clarke+aka+Ron+Christopher%29
“David Lee” aka David Lebow also played a role in the Bob Minton story:
Lebow has a damn good inside game when he is in the shadows. However, when you expose him to sunlight he tends to puke. If I had hired him, I would have fired him asap following that scene in front of Mike Rinder’s house.
Seriously, how can a PI be that stupid?
If I am the client, I am not paying for clowns that make me look bad! Ron Williams’ people at Talon are former law enforcement, FBI, Secret Service, etc. They know how to comport themselves. You would never catch one of Williams’ people acting like Lebow.
As critics, we have come to expect a certain standard of quality in the PI’s that seek to menace us. A Talon PI can deliver a menacing, professional law enforcement demeanor. I talked to a Talon Field Supervisor on a side street at one of the protests and he was a gentleman. We were on opposite sides, but he showed decorum and restraint and I admire that in a professional private investigator.
This Lebow, however, is a clown.
Memo to DM: Dump Lebow and bring out one of the Talon people. This is all on YouTube and the world is watching after all. Get someone that looks like Efrem Zimbalist Jr circa 1967. Surely you can do better than Lebow. Pee Wee Herman has more “command presence” than this common grifter and hoodlum Lebow.
CoS: A Modern Tragicomedy brought to you by David Miscavige Inc!
The Church of Scientology has no credibility because David Miscavige has no credibility — and people like Lebow aren’t exactly helping DM’s image.
Wow – Thanks Sam! That totally handled it. Haven’t used it for years as it’s way too slow and clunky.
I really love Mike Rinder. He is so good at handling people so smoothly, tis’ true what an auditor he would make.
When the PI in the video asked Mike “Would you like to sit down with me and talk about this man to man” my heart almost dropped when Mike responded “Who are you going to bring the be the man?”.
Way out! I always said Mike Rinder was an OK guy in or out of Scientology. He is our MAN!
Mike, RIGHT ON!
LOL – That was “Grimm”. 🙂
This garbage isn’t intended to bring anyone up the tone scale (if you by “garbage” was refering to the Lubow character, or Miscavige-ordered harassment in general). However, being able to observe this for what it is (reverse scientology being applied) can help one realize that the church isn’t interested in raising anyone’s tone level.
So, how is the DC org doing, these days?
Mike, Tiziano, and anyone facing such a situation as a camera damaged bya PI – Small Claims Court is a possibility.Perhaps the liability could be extended to whoever has hired the PI.
Here is a case on record where the CoS lost a Small Claims case in Arizona for not re-imbursing a staff member for out-of-pocket expenses he incurred helping the Org stay afloat:
No lawyer is needed to file a small claims case. If you win and can’t collect because the PI has skipped town, it is still on his record.
Yes It is a total botchup isn’t it? Sorry… It should read ” If it’s true for you it’s true for you.”
I had done some edits there and failed to proof read the post.
Actually the line I was looking for is from the Code of Honor point #6. Here it is in it’s entirety.
“#6. Never compromise with your own reality.
If you think that it is real, it is real. Do not ever compromise with it. If somebody else comes along and says “on page 64 of professor Wittebunk’s cranium depository system it says there that they are hallucinations and illusions….” and you say, “anybody who could be that confused must be right”, you would be compromising your own reality. It is a mighty tough thing to tell somebody who was very circuit-determined instead of self-determined that any time he considers something it is right for him and that he had better not change his mind about it. Accepting other realities than your own, against your own assessment, is a certain way to go down tone scale. You’ll get sick.”
Seems like you got what I was trying to say though anyway.
From Science of Survival:
“The 3.5 in the vicinity of a 1.1 may find himself descending down the Tone Scale toward anger without any apparent reason. The 1.1’s efforts to nullify are so well veiled and so carefully calculated to annoy that any target for correction or reason by the 3.5 is unavailable. And as reason fails, the 3.5, continually subjected to nullification which he cannot locate, will eventually become angry. The 1.1’s reply to this anger will not be a return argument or anger, but an apparent continuation of the status quo while at the same time he does everything possible, which can still remain veiled and hidden, to reduce and nullify the 3.5. These hidden efforts will become stronger and stronger until nullification or destruction takes place. Or the 1.1, qualing before the anger, will drop into apathy and so use every ally available anywhere who can be coaxed or decieved into supporting the 1.1’s efforts to destroy the 3.5.” -LRH Chapter: Method Used by Subject to Handle Others.
Try the Internet Explorer 9 BETA.
Phil was keeping the hope alive from the 50s on forward … while the bureaucratic monstrosity built up around him, eventually pushing him out. And even then he was disseminating. To Tom Cruise no less.
He was the real deal. Talk about someone who deserves the Lifetime Achievement Award….
Wayne, here is a video that illustrates the problem here. It is a scene from the movie “Independence Day”. Aliens are invading and apparently trying to exterminate humanity. They have overwhelming technological force on their side. The President of the USA wants to communicate. The alien is quite obliging and responds honestly and bluntly. You tell me how NVC would work here:
oh my god
what the fuck are you people waiting for?
What is the meaning of “The Musqoitoes” still cant figure out. Thanks in advance. John
Wayne, Honest to God (anyone’s)! You seem to have no clue or real understanding of the Tone scale and Evil. If you sat down with Hitler and Hussein, and tried to discuss their “feelings” and “needs and wants”, you’d be oh so disappointed with the results. Can you spell W-H-O-L-E T-R-A-C-K SUPPRESSIVE BEINGS?
The fundamental flaw in your logic of “NVC” is that in order to communicate with a terminal it first HAS TO BE THERE. What that means is that an SP has to be in PRESENT TIME in order to REASON with him/her/it. Guess what? SP’s are OUT OF VALENCE and STUCK ON THE TIME TRACK – the whole track. Also they are incapable of truly communicating with any true logic. Understand that, Wayne. Big Dave (lol) and Little Davey (more lol) are not persons that YOU are capable of handling with any sane communications because they WILL NOT receive your communication as logical to them. They’re fuckin nuts!!!
Read Science of Survival (pre-GAT). Word clear any mu’s. Also look up the term “theetie-weetie”.
You can hug a tree for nature’s sake but when it falls on you – get the ax!
Learn to use the right “tech” for the right “job”. In other words don’t bring a knife to a gun fight. Verbal or Physical.
P.S. Wayne, read Marc Headley’s book: “Blown for Good: Behind the Iron Curtain of Scientology”. If that doesn’t open your eyes to DM’s EVIL PURPS, then you do not understand insanity on a grand scale.
THE PI IS GETTING PAID TO DO WHAT HIS BOSS/DM IS TELLING HIM TO DO …HE IS WILLFULLY OBEYING TO HARASS MIKE AND OTHERS. THERE IS NO GIVE AND TAKE OR COMPROMISE HERE. WHAT SOUNDS GOOD PHILOSOPHICALLY MAY NOT BE PRAGMATIC.
WHEN SOMEONE IS BEING ATTACKED, IT IS NOT THE TIME TO PREACH NONVIOLENT COMMUNICATION. NO MATTER WHAT TONE LEVEL MIKE USES, THE GUY IS GOING TO CARRY OUT WHAT HE IS PAID TO DO. IF YOU THINK THAT YOUR VIEW IS CORRECT THEN I WANT TO KNOW WHY YOU WON’T GO DOWN TO MIKE’S PLACE AND HELP? YOU HAVE BEEN ASKED THIS QUESTION BEFORE BUT YOU HAVE AVOIDED AN ANSWER. I’M SERIOUSLY WAITING FOR YOUR REPLY. IT IS EASY TO SIT ON THE SIDELINES AND TALK ABOUT WHAT SO AND SO WOULD DO OR TELL MARTY AND MIKE HOW THEY SHOULD RESPOND. HOWEVER, UNLESS YOU ARE HOLDING BACK ….YOU HAVE NOT STATED WHAT YOUR OWN STATS ARE IN THE AREA OF NVC AS APPLIED TO A SIMILAR SITUATION THAT MIKE AND MARTY AND CO. ARE INVOLVED . MIKE HASN’T TAKEN OUT A SAWED OFF SHOT GUN AND BLOWN THE GUY AWAY NOW , HAS HE ? NOBODY DIES FROM WORDS AND THAT IS A GOOD THING. I SUGGEST YOU LISTEN TO “THE ROUTE TO INFINITY TAPES’ BY LRH SINCE YOU SEEM TO HAVE SOME REFERENCES AVAILABLE. IF YOU DON’T HAVE THE TAPES GET A HOLD OF THEM. ONCE YOU HAVE DONE THAT THEN WE CAN HAVE A DISCUSSION. THERE IS A REASON I AM SUGGESTING RTI FOR YOU. GOOD ON WANTING TO HELP BUT IF WHAT YOU ARE SUGGESTING IS NOT HELPING THE PEOPLE YOU INTEND ON HELPING, THEN STOP. IF YOU WANT TO INSIST ON YOUR VIEW, DO IT WHEN THERE ISN’T AN IMMEDIATE SITUATION. OTHERWISE YOU SOUND LIKE A KNOW BEST OR YOU ARE TRYING TO ACHIEVE SOMETHING WHICH CONCERNS YOUR OWN DESIRE TO BE HEARD REGARDLESS IF ANYONE WANTS TO HEAR IT. BASED ON MARTY’S AND MIKE’S RESPONSE THEY AREN’T WANTING TO ACCEPT YOUR SUGGESTIONS , SO THERE YOU ARE. THAT’S HOW IT IS.
D LowBlow – He is the next freedom metal winner
Mike is the Master
Even at the lower figure of $30,000 a day that $10,950,000 dollars a year.
Are the parishioners & donators aware of how he using their money?
Greetings from a supporter in the UK, I find it sick and disgusting how anyone else would be arrested for this type of harrasment, yet because they are doing COS bidding the police look the other way. Are they afraid of bad press or something, I honestly do not understand it.
If I followed someone around with a video camera for hours on end, to many different locations and even their home, the consequences would be so bad for me.
When are these videos going to be on Youtube? You need to expose this information to the masses.
Its mind-boggling that a Cult, or any Entity can go to any Length whatsoever to stalk, intimidate and harass People under the Guise of an Investigation and there is nothing you can do about it to permanently put an End to this Nonsense.
How about a Restraining Order CO$/Lebow?
Somewhere the Wheels of Justice in America are severely out of Alignment.
The following is my opinion, though I believe it to be an honest, educated one. It will remain my opinion until I see any real facts that argue any points against it.
I’ve seen that you’ve been deleting my posts lately. THAT statement is not opinion.
Why are you doing this? There is nothing vulgar in them, and they are civilized, and they are not off topic.
The only reason I can imagine you are deleting (not approving) them is that they may disagree with your point of view or agenda. So is that how it works on your blog? As long as the viewpoints are agreeable enough to you, and not too uncomfortable, doesn’t threaten you authority, and is in agreement with your end game, that you will approve them?
I guess you got your need fulfilled, for me to go away. Apparently my viewpoints are too disruptive and threatening to your end game.
Of course, deleting and not approving my carefully written and thought-out posts is your right, as this is YOUR blog, I understand … but is this action really serving purely the public good? Or is your personal agenda mixed up with it.
I’m severely disappointed in thinking you were somebody who I mistakenly thought you were.
Never before have I questioned your intentions (however naively) until now. I gave you the benefit of the doubt simply because you left the CofS.
However, I’m finding that as a supposed independent and free-thinking scientologist, you are acting no better than the CofS by appying your own control to the comments on your blog. What’s ghastly is that your control of communication is blatantly disrespectful to the practice and beliefs of scientology …
“that all men have inalienable rights to think freely, to talk freely, to write freely their own opinions and to counter or utter or write upon the opinions of others; ”
You are spitting on the Scientology Church Creed, just as does CofS. How does that make you better than CofS?
You’re apparently showing an unwillingness to tolerate and seek out others’ viewpoints, even from other scientologists like me, to expand and change your own viewpoint, which is a quality on the high end of the tone scale, as I’m sure you’re aware.
That you’ve specifically deleted posts I’ve made (in defense of the peaceful concepts I was sharing), and you promoted others to continue to pummel these peaceful ideas about nonviolent communication, and then disable my ability to respond to them for me to be heard, is ruthless and cruel.
You are secretly controlling information your readers get, without fellow scientologists knowing it. Until recently, I didn’t know either.
Who knows what great viewpoints you’ve deprived of others because of your control.
But I’m very glad I know this about you now, better sooner than later. I can’t support this unfree-thinking behavior.
Looking at this situation closer, it strikes me as odd that with the huge traffic your blog gets, that you don’t start a forum instead. It would run faster, and everybody’s life could be made easier, and it would be much more efficient.
However, with a typical forum, there is usually immediate posting without an approval filter. Now we can’t have that, can we? In addition, a typical forum does not control topics as long as it’s the theme of the forum. So with a forum, you would not typically exercise control of the subject matter with your own agenda, would you? Others would typically be able to post their own original threads on subjects THEY want to talk about. The most popular threads could be other threads you didn’t originate. We can’t have that, can we. You want to manipulate and control the direction of the conversation.
Free and open communication is how great ideas breed. You apparently don’t get or respect that.
As Ron says, When somebody is trying to control you, they are lying to you. I’ve noticed this to be true for myself, and not because Ron says so. It’s just an observable fact with life experience.
Any trust that I had in you is now completely lost because of behavior of control. You are lying, even according to Ron. I’m so thankful I finally notice how you’re pretending to be something you are not.
I don’t know for sure what you’re motives are, but it can’t be good just looking at your very behavior. My intuition suggests what it is you are really after. If my intuition is correct about what you really want, it’s clear why you don’t want me posting, as it could impede or perhaps even ruin your goal.
I know who I am, the goodness I am, the compassion I am, and I know what I represent, and know that I am a valuable, contributing writer who tries hard to write with clarity. But too much clarity would expose your behavior and intentions, ruin your credibility, thus ruin your goal, wouldn’t it.
Could it be I stealing your alpha male thunder, too? Or perhaps the observations I made were making you and/or Mike look too bad, and it
was bad PR for you auditing business? Is one of the intents of you blog to be a mouthpiece for your business through the “soft” promotion of yourself on your blog.
Aren’t business interests typically a conflict of interest with freedom of speech. Who would want to buy auditing from you if they lost faith in you in any way, by somebody making you look bad in debate? Of course, profit is only a sub-goal, not the ultimate goal, if my intuition is right. It appears you lust for power.
So here we go again, just like CofS, there is a commercial interest inevitably getting in the way of free thought, and free and open communication. If your intent was pure, you would allow free communication, and you would leave no doubt about any profit motives.
I’m saddened by the fact that you don’t respect the Freedom for a fellow scientologist to communicate on your blog, even if it’s civil and full of decorum. No worries though, you’re in good company, the CofS doesn’t respect Freedom of Speech or their very own creed either.
You likely noticed that I didn’t deposit funds in your PayPal account, not because I didn’t want to help Daniel, but because I didn’t want to feel like somebody was trying to manipulate me through any sense of shame or guilt. Is whether somebody donated or not your criteria in your judgement of who the “real” supporters of your agenda are?
I couldn’t help but observe that your communication got much more antagonistic to me only two days after you posted for donation requests.
More posts got deleted. (I’m pretty sure you noticed that I didn’t donate.)
What I’ve found is that one finds out the real truth about a supposed “request” when it’s not followed. If it’s not followed, and one see’s a noticable change in attitude, violent communication, or even punishment towards one, then it wasn’t really it request, it was actually a DEMAND … under the guise of a request. It appears that’s what you did.
I learned about this in the book, “Nonviolent Communication” by Dr. Rosenberg, a truly worthwhile book for those who are tired of submitting to the demands of others. (Is that why you don’t like it?)
Tragically, you have managed to participate in the turning of a fellow scientologist, who supported you, into a critic of you. It is the exact same type of footbulleting (footnuking) that CofS does to themselves all the time. Old habits apparently die hard.
So I’m bidding my farewell. I’m sure that’s a relief for you, as I was apparently a pesty impedence to you getting what you want.
I can’t say that most of my experience here has been all bad. If I wasn’t here, I would have likely never been turned onto nonviolent communication as soon as I did. Your message of “integrate or desintegrate” had a big impact on me, and led me toward the nonviolent
communication path, a path which you’ve proven, ironically, that you don’t respect. Of late though, I’m now believing that what you meant by “integrate or desintegrate” is much different than the meaning it meant to me.
For what it’s worth, I thank you for the positive I’ve gained here.
However, until you start honoring Free Speech by walking the talk you preach, I can no longer support you and your blog. Let me know if you have a change in mind in principle, and get honest and straight. If this ever happens, perhaps I may contribute again. I consider my contribution as valuable, even though you obviousy do not by your curt comments to my posts.
If by some very remote chance I’m totally incorrect about any of my perceptions of you, please let me know specifically what may be incorrect about. I am happy to give you a chance to explain yourself in case I’ve misperceived you, even though you won’t give me the same courtesy. I would actually rather be wrong about you because I’m already tired of have gotten deceived once before, yet to get deceived yet again.
What truly makes me feel sorrow is that you DO the very thing you proclaim you’re against, control, censorship, clandestinity, manipulation,
lying, thought-stopping, with virtually the same ruthless attitude as the CofS.
I can no longer be a part of that, now that I’m aware of what’s really going on.
Anonymous, at the WhyWeProtest.com forum, were apparently right to be skeptical about you, afterall, and to think I was defending you there in my posts? I feel sickened about that now, and stupid! Now I understand why WWP hammered me so hard when I tried to defend you and what I originally thought was your good intent.
(Sorry to the many good folks at WWP. I just didn’t know any better, and you knew it.You are so right about the Marty worship going on his blog, too. Same shit, different dog. Now I’m wondering if it isn’t Marty’s real intention to destroy David Miscavage’s leadership, and become the new kingpin of CofS. This is not beyond conceivability to me anymore. I better start listening more closely to “wogs”. lol.)
I thought I got out of the garbage when I left the CofS. But I fell back into it again on your blog. But I’m glad I’m “out” (again) now.
Perhaps it won’t be the same amount of relief as getting out of the CofS, but I know it will be a LOT of relief. Just in 24 hours, I already feel better, and realize the suppression I was feeling. What a difference!
I see a potential fallout of scientologists on your blog, if you don’t change your ways (that is if people manage to discover what’s really going on). Thankfully, I’m one of them who finally sees. Perhaps another blog needs to be created to report the truth about you and your control and your deception on your blog. I never bothered to look at what CofS posted about you because I thought it would all be lies. But maybe even they have some truth.
How does it feel to have managed to generate so much distrust in a fellow independent scientologist?
Perhaps you’re used to independent scientologists feeling this way toward you from when you were active in the CofS, so it doesn’t bother you anymore (if it ever did). You’ve apparently become numb, Marty. That’s what I believe.
I’m bewildered by the idea that the depth of the rot is apparently much worse than I originally thought.
If you are “the auditor” of the 3rd dynamic (other scientologists), which many other scientologists on your blog perceive and believe you are, I suggest you investigate closely a button which has become very obvious to me now, if you have the courage.
Find out why you and many scientologists on your blog are so opposed to a Gandhi-like approach for dealing with conflict resolution. I am completely shocked and dismayed at why many scientologists on your blog repel and violently oppose the idea of nonviolent communication, and have even attacked me with meanness (including you attacking me), as opposed to logical debate on the idea.
There was absolutely no logical argument against nonviolent communication, whatsoever. It was all reactive response. But how could there have been rational argument? No scientologist there has taken the time to learn and practice nonviolent communication, so they don’t even
know what it really is.
The response I received back on the idea of nonviolent communication was mostly a tangled “nest of entheta” from you and other confused scientologists, and resulted in more violent communication. You egged it on, too, by giving aid and comfort to that personal attack on me.
What, “to utterly ruin” me? Why? That’s insane to me.
I suggest looking into this and try to help group audit out the charge on this button (implant, IMO). My concern is that you may not be capable of doing this, as it’s apparent you are caught up in that same “entheta/implant” and “charge” as other fellow scientologists, unfortunately.
Why there would be any such “charge” at all, on NVC, came as an utter shock to me!
I also wonder Why you and Mike apparently can’t acknowledge the truth of the following about violent communication? It’s apparently a very hot button, an area where you both don’t do well in practicing.
It’s beyond me how any rational human can possibly find fault with the following quote …
“One kind of life-alienating communication is the use of moralistic judgments that imply wrongness or badness on the part of people who don’t act in harmony with our values. Such judgments are reflected in language such as, “The problem with you is that you’re too selfish.”
“She’s lazy.” “They’re prejudiced.” “It’s inappropriate.” Blame, insults, put-downs, labels, criticism, comparisons, and diagnoses are all forms of judgment.
In the world of judgments, our concern centers on WHO “IS” WHAT.”
(Note: I pointed out that Mike Rinder was doing exactly this in posted videos, when he said, “Who are you, a pussy?” He was introverting
David Labau, by saying WHAT he is. A perfect example of typical OSA style violent communication, something apparently you or Mike didn’t want to hear me say.)
“Life-alienating communication, however, traps us in a world of ideas about rightness and wrongness—a world of judgments; it is a language rich with words that classify and dichotomize people and their actions. When we speak this language, we judge others and their behavior while preoccupying ourselves with who’s good, bad, normal, abnormal, responsible, irresponsible, smart, ignorant, etc.””
– Marshall Rosenberg
That the above ideas received a response of violence by you and others demonstrates to me that the CofS and some of Ron’s writings have added to the inculcation of the 4th dynamic implant with “always fight, never defend” into the root core of many scientologists’ spirits.
This further mind fuck to many scientologists is horrifying and truly saddens me as to the depth of the aberation I see.
You, too, are assisting in slamming down the lock on the 4th dynamic engram by you stopping me from helping run it out. THAT is what I was doing. The charge was blowing off, even though it was directed at me, it was still blowing off, and YOU stopped it.
What our domination cultures need is MORE NONviolent communication, not less. You just made the engram (implant) worse on your blog by strengthening and locking down the idea of violent communication, consciously or unconsciously. It’s clear you have not risen above and taken a pan-determined approach as to WHY there is so much anger embeded in scientologists, let alone WHY there is so much violence in society.
You have not even started at the beginning of creating peace yet. You haven’t even confronted the idea that late L. Ron Hubbard caved into
the 4th dynamic implant himself, thinking in “enemy images”. How can you? You’re caved into this yourself!
I hope you have the confront to confront this. If you’re able to manage to do so, I hope you will help other scientologists confront it as well, and will stop stopping others, like me, from helping fellow scientologists “run out” this cruel implant, and educate them with rational, peacemaking data.
I doubt you will have the courage to approve this comment on your blog. But I hope you do. If you don’t, there are many other ways for me to get this comment out for other scientologists and non-scientologists to read, so they see how you really are. You complain about David Miscavage. What about your own actions?
You can’t stop free communication, Marty, no matter how hard you may try. Haven’t you learned that by now from the vast experience of CofS not being able to stop it either?
You, in OSA style, have certain supporter minions on your blog, who praise you, and that you praise back, who give to you the pretense of superior authority. I know you don’t want to lose this. So whenever any one of your minions said something ignorant, and I replied back to them pointing out their absurdity, you deleted (didn’t approve) my post.
Of course, you wouldn’t want those who you’ve lended your own credibility to, to look too ignorant, now would you? As that would thwart your own credibility because your personal public praise to anybody saying something nonsensical, could ruin your own pretense of superiority as a supreme being.
So what do you do? You censor, and slam those who you don’t agree with. I know your tricks, Marty. I see the game. You are trying to build up this image of kingpin. Now why would you want to do that? I can only think of one other ulterior motive, besides satisfying your own Ego, and your own cravings for admiration.
You don’t create peace by censoring or chiding one with meanness for simply giving their own opinions.
On your own blog, you claim you abhor the practice of “thought stopping”, yet with your practice of censorship and roughshod meanness on your blog, you yourself are practicing thought stopping. What amazing irony. What blatant hypocrisy.
These are the acts of violence which broke my trust in you.
Admit it Marty, I’m a threat to your personal agenda and your credibility as an authoritive figure. That’s the real reason you don’t like me, don’t want me around, and for your attempts to thought stop me through your nullification of me and my comments.
You suggest that I’m arm-chair quarterbacking the situation without really “getting out there” and doing something about it myself. Do what?
Haggle the PI’s like Mike Rinder did with, “What are you, a pussy?” Is that your idea of effectiveness, of peacemaking?
The truth is, I DID and DO do something about it. At the first whiff of realizing the abuse of the Church of Scientology, I left it, and then I broadly communicated about the abuse under the alias of “Safe”. This was in 1999, way before you left the CofS and finally spoke out against the abuse. You’re a latecomer. How dare you criticize and judge ME. Look in the mirror.
What about you? At the first whiff of abuse by CofS, did you DO something about it? Did you object to David Miscavage’s abuse? Or did you act cowardly and do nothing about it for a very long time, and continue to let the abuse go on, worse, contribute to the abuse by smacking others, yourself.
I ask, why didn’t you do something about it THEN? To use Mike Rinders tone level which YOU ENDORSE, on you, “What are you, a pussy?”
How does that feel, Marty? Doesn’t feel good when others say that to you, does it. Unless you are just plain numb to feelings, which would explain to me why you abhor the alleged “touchy-feely” of nonviolent communication, and endorse the “Eye for an Eye” type vengeance instead.
I hope you finally learn soon how to create peace, instead of continuing to break it, like CofS has and continues to do. You broke the peace between us, Marty. Is it any wonder why I no longer trust you? You footbulleted yourself. You had me. But not any more with your actions.
For there to be peace between one another, there must be trust between each other, first.
Remember this by Ron? …
“On the day when we can fully trust each other, there will be peace on Earth.”
Think about that, and what you’re doing now.
Will you have the courage to post this comment to you on your blog? If not, “What are you, a pussy?” … as Mike Rinder said to David Labau.
I’m 99% positive you won’t. Why? Because you can’t confront and risk the blowback of this comment. It may expose your secret game (IMO). I’m willing to confront the aftermath. In fact, I expect there to be much personal attack of me from a few selected “Marty worshipers” from writing this message.
No problem. I can handle it. I am not a pussy. I am not afraid to speak my mind. And I know you do not like that I am not afraid to speak my mind. In fact, I know you are afraid that I speak my mind. That’s why you try to nullify me with ridicule, judgement, and through the deletion of my posts.
If you do post this comment, that will be a good-faith step in regaining my trust in you.
So what are you going to do? Approve this comment? Or are you going to be “a pussy?”
(Blowback, from self-sabotaging footbullets, are bitch, huh.)
– Wayne Froemke (AKA “Safe”)
P.S. The sad part to me about leaving is that likley not many, if any, will find out WHY. That’s probably how you’d rather keep it, right? Again, I sadly doubt you will approve this last post of mine on your blog, as it may be too damaging to your authority. But this time, I’m now smart enough to copy the post (this post) before all my writing goes down the drain like you’ve disrespected past carefully-written decorum posts of mine before. That’s “OK” now. I’ll be able to post this information on other scientology blogs and critics blogs who truly believe in Free Speech by their proving they actually walk the Freedom talk, unlike what you’re doing on your blog, demonstrating outrageous hypocrisy.
Here is something else -I haven’t tested it out, but Geeks.com has available a Digital Camcorder/Camera that looks like a ballpoint pen because it IS a Ballpoint Pen that actually writes. You can carry it in your shirt pocket and record whatever you are facing. Unfortunately it does not also record audio, but there are small keychain audio recorders on the market, too.
I’m sure any reader’s imagination is up to dreaming up ways this kind of stuff could be used, confronting PIs or inside orgs.
Wayne, you have just proven my entire point. I post your diatribe to show everyone else. Of course, you won’t get it. So it’ll be your last one here – until you wake up.
What it looked like to me was Marty gave the pinch, the read happened, and Marty asked John to recall the pinch, and the read reoccurred. THEN, John thought of some nasty bit which read, and which he was not willing to talk about. I believe John said it was “creepy.” That might have impressed John more – I think it made him respect the meter. That’s my take, anyway.
Excellent reference, Margaret. I couldn’t have said it better myself!
Thanks for the socks!
Actually, Margaret’s reference to RJ 68 is the appropriate response.
Yes, they have gone insane on the subject, due to their inability to differentiate, as opposed to how you have properly and sanely done.
“How To Make Others Wrong for Not Wanting to Adopt Non-Violent Communication” by Wayne Froemke
How is this different than Noisy Investigation as described in “HCO EXECUTIVE LETTER OF 5 SEPTEMBER 1966” and earlier in the Manual of Justice?
Sorry to get back to you after the shockingly long time of a few days – talk about Time being based on motion – all the motion of this blog makes things go really fast.
I agree, completely. I get what you mean – without goals, barriers and purposes, there is no game, and if there is no game, why show up?
The only time I ever lulled in life was right after I achieved a major goal, and then coasted because I did not set a new goal.
And I totally get not having time for this! But, like the moth… There is a lot going on.
“Who are you gonna bring to be the man?”