Warning: May be shocking for some, but it is one major reason we are here

How is this for a shocking graphic to start a post?  It’s my creation…. well, mostly. I stole it from CCHR.  It’s here for shock value, so don’t take it too seriously, okay?  

Approximately 9 months ago (or so — I’m bad with time, so take that for what it is worth), I approached Marty about writing an entry for his blog.  My angle?   Simple — hardcore critic — the guy who did the $cientology-KILLS website and T-shirts with OT-III, supports independant Scientologists.   Not the most earth shattering headline, I must confess.

I haven’t been active protesting Scientology in over a decade.  They were downright vicious when it came to shutting me down. I received the personal attentions of Dave Lubow.  What did they dig up on me?  Bounced checks and bad credit, basically. Having gone through a divorce over the years preceeding my activism, and being young, dumb, wildly irresponsible, and willing to waste a large percentage of my income to do things like …make t-shirts to give away or sell (at a loss! despite the Church’s PR that I profited wildly), probably made me an easy target.  Lubow even called my mother!   The man is truly a turd.  Sorry.

At the time, I also confessed to being Scamizdat (blogger note: maybe Mike can explain this, but I vaguely recall Scamizdat posted some upper level material and we tried to crush a harsh DM critic Grady Ward through civil litigation as the poster), as part of the Grady Ward case.  Even after going through deposition with Helena Kobrin (who still owes me muffins) and Eric Leiberman, they declined to accept my confession and still pushed forward against Grady.  Granted, my confession wasn’t enough for them to pin specific acts on me.  But I cost them tremendous amounts of money, and greatly enjoyed the telephone updates to DM throughout the deposition.  These updates were done in a room next door to the Deposition room, and hysterically, they didn’t realize that there was basically a window between the two rooms.  The “window” allowed myself, Grady and the transcriptionist unfettered audio access to their calls.   

It was funny, but at the time I failed to realize the significance.  That they would call DM (or perhaps it was even Marty on the other end!) (blogger note: wasn’t me, was it you Mike?) in response to a depo of some little guy who just had the stupidity/courage/something to stand up and say, “I am Spartacus!”

After the major Lisa McPherson protest in Clearwater — the protest where I met Bob Minton — the protest that I recruited Lawrence Wollersheim to join us on — the protest where I first met Dave Lubow (I’m such a name dropper!), I had Co-Organized the Boulder Colorado Protest.  The Boulder protests generated enough noise that they flew in Sylvia Stanard and Joe Neal (or O’Neal?) and some gal from Portland to handle me and mine.  

Great protest…We got Wollersheim and Bob Penny to protest side-by-side while Denver DSA Deb Danos held a sign saying “Wollersheim Used Penny.”

All in all, things went well.

During the protest there was an interesting exchange that I documented afterwards in an internet post which you can find here: 

http://groups.google.com/group/alt.religion.scientology/browse_thread/thread/6c4713c07f4c6dd8/14d28739143eaa78?hl (blogger note: contains reference to OT III data)

The whole thread is worth reading.

It went basically like this…  Joe Neal (O’Neal, I guess) confronted me during the protest and pointed to one of our fellow picketers (who had dressed up as the alien “Xenu”) and made the statement, “That is Bigotry”.     

I raised it as an issue then, and the moment never left me.   Was it bigotry?   Maybe.

Whether it was a fair point or not that Joe raised that day is really beside the point.   What followed is what makes that exchange particularly interesting.  

See, I started to ponder where the line between protest, complaint and bigotry was.   I wondered, to myself, if a scientology reformation were to occur, do I so hate the ideas that I couldn’t tolerate it?  Or do I mean what I say?   Would I tolerate a kinder, gentler scientology?

The years passed…  Lubow did his thing and shut me up.  Kobrin traded removal of my name from the churches blackPR pages for my scientology-kills.net domain. An action I still feel no small amount of shame for.  Although I should point out that the church did not uphold its side of the domain-name bargain.  I demanded poppy seed muffins, I was promised poppy-seed muffins… I never received them.  Criminals.

So, as I said, redundantly, a decade passed.  I did my own thing.  I caught glimpses of the “anonymous” uprising here and there in the news, and then Marty…   I found Marty’s page.    See, Marty was of particular interest to me in the last months of being a critic. I couldn’t believe what I was reading.  The man had left!   He was, from my limited understanding, the man behind the curtain on so many things.  I knew he was important, other critics knew he was important, but he was an enigma to me, just the same.    

Here he is… blogging.

So I have been reading.  I still find much of the “tech” repugnant to reason and science. But in the past year I have been reading Marty’s Blog and there’s this nagging question in the back of my head.   It’s really Joe Neal’s question… or maybe not, but at least owes its roots to Joe’s question…. 

It is, “Is this a brand of Scientology that I can co-exist with?”.    

It is, to me, proof that although my actions might have said “bigotry” in the past, that my mind and heart were not working from a place of bigotry at all.  In the end, I am not blind.

If Marty is Honest — and I have no reason to think otherwise — This is a Scientology that I can peacefully and happily co-exist with.  I am not arrogant enough to believe that you all NEED my validation.  But I wanted to give it anyway.

Marty?  If you back off of it one inch…  I will be here to protest you.   

I wish all of you, everyone…. the best of luck in saving your religion.  You have my support.

-Ray Randolph

235 responses to “Warning: May be shocking for some, but it is one major reason we are here

  1. martyrathbun09

    Ray, thanks for posting this. I know you are going to get a raft of nonsense from both extremes of the spectrum. The Great Middle Path, though ultimately rewarding, is fraught with peril. But as my man Gandhi once said: You may be a minority of one, but the truth is still the truth.

  2. Would be nice to have a /like! button in the wordpress UI (user interface).
    Coexistence IS understanding. Yay Marty and Mike, you guys open doors.
    And thanks Ray Randolph for having the self awareness and objectivity to sit down and write this down for the world to see.
    Y’all made my morning 🙂


  3. Ray — Thank you for posting this. I know you have tried many times to reach out to me and I have never felt the inclination to respond as I had always thought your only intention was the destruction of the subject. Now I read your post and I believe what you have said. Much appreciated. And now I am no longer in Denver and that long sought after coffee isnt possible until I come back to visit. But I will.

    Marty poses a number of parenthetical questions within your post which I will endeavor to respond to when I return from visiting the Little Shop of Horrors this morning for a too often delayed torture session.

  4. I remember Grady Ward! I used to post on ars in 1995 or so inviting people to send copies of confidential upper levels to him. I think he was also involved with the masked NOTs.

    At the time, I wanted all of the upper level materials available outside the church so others could use them without relying on the church or David Miscavige.

  5. Ray, I type this in without reading other comments before – as I usually do as I don’t necessarily just want to repeat what has been said already even though I might feel the same: WHAT YOU SAY IS STRONG and it has a ring of truth to me. And so would be the person saying it. It’s not the point that you “side” with Marty but I feel I could blindly trust you even though we have never met.

  6. Will a real Scientologist PLEASE get this guy some muffins already?

  7. Wow!!!!!!!!!! That’s a HUGE win! We have here the proof that scientology, when applied with intelligence, understanding and compassion (as Marty and Mike did), can handle the ennemies that WE created ourselves! Communication is really the universel solvent!
    Let me tell you, Ray Randolph, we can happily co-exist with you too!

  8. Here is a 1998 edition of Who’s Who on ARS:

    Grady Ward and others are listed. My entry is particularly funny because I refer to myself as an Independent Scientologist.

  9. Theo Sismanides

    Ray, this IS a validation and is well accepted, especially when it comes from you. I am disgusted of a “church” that persecutes one single man for petty crimes and calls him mom… LOL!!!

    I am disgusted so much and I feel good that I left, you know why?

    Mainly because what you write at the end of your letter here, prooves what the true Scientology believes: that Man is basically good.

    And you are one stellar example of that. Thank you for your support and good wishes. Yes, we will save our religion, just because at this point of time, here on Planet Earth IT doesn’t need any saving at all! It IS just what IT IS and if you study it a bit, boy, you will find some goodies in it. So, me too, in my turn I wish you luck in your journey in life and know that any such subject is not for persecuting and punishing but from helping a being live a better life.

    Glad to have you here!!

  10. Theo Sismanides

    Sorry, wanted to say “calls his mom” and not “calls him mom”. Typo.

  11. As one of the old-guard critics myself (starting with ars in 94(?) or so), I can say that I found most critics were involved because they were responding to corporate Scientology’s bad behavior not to the topic of Scientology itself.

    To be sure there were always a few who would focus on what they perceived to be rather the rather comical bits. It was easy to do and done to tweek rather than accomplish anything productive. You weren’t going to get anywhere by dropping OTIII data on a member; I do think it had an impact on new people to come in.

    I recall the Scientology Kills site was seen as somewhat extreme (if in title only) by many of the critics. They did have some cool t-shirts though.

    I believe that most of the Church’s critics and even its “worst” enemies like Bob Minton and Keith Hensen (both of whom DM beat up with lawyers) would have been/would be quite content to co-exist with the Independents. You may not think of it this way, but compared to the current Church, you represent a kinder, gentler Scientology.

  12. The link to the ARS post was borked, so hopefully this one will work:



    It is amazing and wonderful to see you post here. And while your intelligence in no guarantee of your NON-SP’ness, your introspection and honesty confirm (for me at least) that you are not an eveeeel SP.

    As for the Xenu issue….that cat is out of the bag. I am reminded of the tape on Level 0 (Comm cycles in Auditing, I believe) where LRH was commenting upon the mass hysteria in Lima, Peru, when H.G. Wells “War of the Worlds” was broadcast there. Perhaps that was a valid concern re: Xenu in the 60’s, but what with Star Wars, Star Trek, etc, that button is pretty flat these days. It would be nice to see the CoS get its organizational “Grade 0” in, instead of being a Lie Factory of major proportions.
    I always was a dreamer….
    Thanks again for your great post.

  13. Most religious groups suffer from some form of bigotry especially the more you get into the inner circle. When I got married in the Sea Org, they were out of rooms so my new wife found a house with a Flag public who would let us live there free. No, the Berthing In Charge had orders that no staff were to live with “the enemy”, meaning our own public were considered enemies of the church. They rented us an expensive house instead.
    They etymology of “bigot” is interesting. Two derivations are the French “bigot” which means “sanctimonious” and and English one suggesting “by God”, meaning that those closest to God were bigoted. There are also more interesting ones if you want to look.
    Marty – Your commented on Gandhi made me want to share something with you. He did some amazing work, but some of my Indian friends look at him very differently than we might in the U.S. His assassination was the result of him losing his political base which was a result of his sexual scandal with young girls. Although this data is not hidden, people generally ignore it when extolling the virtues on this rather remarkable historical figure. He also exhibited racist behavior against Africans which should not be too surprising as the Hindu caste system is where he came from. Below is an interesting YouTube video which will give an overview but I suggested interested parties do their own research. Penn of Penn and Teller is 1.1 and hard to take for me personally but the points he brings up here should not be overlooked. It is also a great exercise in understanding the contradicitons of great historical figures. After all they are human is this humanity is often denied them by their followers. It is not a crime to be human. It is also possible Gandhi was exploring Tantric sex, another sure fire way to get yourself in trouble, particularly with authorities. If the url below does now work, go to YouTube and search “Some historical facts & Sex Scandal of Bapu Mahatma Gandhi”

  14. I whole-heartedly agree with Ray.

    I have never once considered destruction of the subject. As a critic, I have always said that Scientologists have a right to their own religion – they just can’t break the law and abuse/defraud/falsely imprison/beat/ and destroy people!

    I applaud you Marty for posting Ray’s article.

    And I applaud you, Mike, for acknowledging him.

    THIS will be the downfall of David Miscavige and Scientology abuse.

    Way to go.

  15. Joe Harrington was Skamizdat. I knew him, and how dare you take credit for his courage!

  16. Just a Reader

    I agree. I have been reading for a while, and have seen the hearts of many here, and a shift too, in attitudes, towards outsiders. I have come to realize the evil lies within the co$, in specific people, practices, but not in the hearts of the most of the Indies (or exes/critics or anons).

    I can ally myself to this.

    However, if – later on – Marty or Mike – or anyone else – ever becomes the next dm, if another ‘Berlin Wall’ goes up, if the toltaltarian regime just changes hands instead of opening up to real change, healthy, equal and fair, and respectful of human rights and freedoms, well – we’ll be back . . .

    Peace – and reform . . .

  17. martyrathbun09

    Judge a person by the body of his or her work. I highly recommend you watch the interview of John Stewart recently by Larry King. Particularly where he talks about our culture and the News Media’s effect, developing this sickening obsession to find some flaw in anyone – and using that to keep everybody diverted from the BIG ISSUES.

  18. My reaction? Mild interest perhaps. So, a critic happened to be RIGHT about Miscavige while he was slamming the tech he doesn’t even understand.


    Arguing with such critics is a major waste of time anyway – I spent too many years around Tech and Qual handling guys like this piece of *bleep*. When such were approachable at ALL, it most often came down to MUs, O/Ws, Out-Ethics, M/W/Hs, or some weird SP thing done to them by a staff member.

    If a guy doesn’t respond to the simple buttons, it’s best to just ease him out the door, and try to discretely shield staff and public from their sideshows.

    Any auditor has seen this…some one is screaming or mis-emoting and foaming at the mouth….then you indicate the CORRECT bypassed charge. Suddenly all is quiet. You would think the person might be a little sheepish about how he had been behaving, but how often do they just…go about their normal business, suddenly not dramatizing?

    Scientology, organizationally, has been tortured into a strange path.

    Every “answer” or “program” has to be the GIGANTIC KEY TO EVERYTHING!!!!!!!!!

    So….simple little workable programs go by the wayside. We used to invite blown public in for some free word clearing (MUs….the hidden gorilla behind most foaming and ranting), and we would assess a short pat list LRH had cooked up, can’t remember the whole list now except for #5 “Simply booted off course for reasons best known to God and registrars”.

    As long as the mafia ran Vegas, it was people friendly. $1 breakfasts, bizarre buffets, cheap drinks and folksy lower tier personnel kept the “marks” happy while they gambled away! Then Corporate America took over, and decided each area of a casino must be a “profit center”, thereby outlawing “loss leaders”.

    I bring this up, because neither Pat Broeker nor David Miscavige learned a DAMN thing while they were stealing LRH’s money and blowing it on booze, whores and gambling in Vegas and Reno. That’s what those two creeps DID folks, you might as well FACE it!

    DM picked the wrong valence – he should have picked the Mafia. Instead, he picked Corporate America.

    My friends who worked with Miscavige and Broeker on a daily basis, characterized them both as being part of the “Millionaire’s Boys’ Club”. There was some kind of scandal back in the mid-80s in the South West USA with that name.

    Looks like a STIFF game of bluff went catty-wumpus between Broeker and Miscavige. Is Broeker the “earlier beginning” to DM’s infatuation with Tom Cruise?

  19. Scientology does not kill, “Scientologists” do.

    Scientologists, parade the world pretending to be experts in all kinds of fields that they are actually not even trained in. And they do this under the guise of helping people. But it is not real help 80% of the time.

    When someone really looking for help comes along not knowing this, it is always too late to do anything about it until the damage is done.

    That has been the way of the Church of Scientology since 1976.

  20. Is the comment and reference to Ghandi intended to denigrate him because he was interested in sex and liked clean bowels?

  21. I never did like the “Scientology Kills” term. It always sort of pissed me off. Scientology does not kill, only it’s misapplication through incompetence or lack of understanding can.

    Now, “Suppression Kills” I can agree with.

  22. “It is also possible Gandhi was exploring Tantric sex” The Independent (UK) has a good bookreview. It seems his behavior stems from a trauma(engram). Distorting his view on the subject undoubtetly. “Two years later, as his father lay dying, Gandhi left his bedside to have sex with Kasturba. Meanwhile, his father drew his last breath. The young man compounded his grief with guilt that he had not been present, and represented his subsequent revulsion towards “lustful love” as being related to his father’s death.” http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/books/features/thrill-of-the-chaste-the-truth-about-gandhis-sex-life-1937411.html I knew Gandhi was kind of a dictator for the ones near to him. That does not make me aprrieciate his struggle for independance less. It just shows that any kind of power one atains can result peopple running their own unresolved issues on others around him/her. Marty do you have a Scientology description for this situation . I am curious. Metalqual you will find that the Independent’s bookreview gives a little more dept. I have conflicting feelings about Ghandi that I will just let exist in me but I now understand Marty better. I am going to make a lighthearted jest: Maybe Ghandi could have benefitted from some Scientology Auditing on the subject of sex ;). All “heroes” have flaws like you and me. And cultural aspects have to be considered as well I think.
    “In Ancient Rome, people didn’t marry because they were in love. Folks married to carry on the family bloodline and for economical or political reasons. Women were under the jurisdiction of their fathers, so young girls were often married off when they were between the ages of twelve and fourteen. Some young men married at the age of fourteen also.
    During the Middle Ages, the practice of youthful marriages continued and women married as early as fourteen.” I am glad we have the knowledge we have in this day and age.

    “sanctimonious” <—– One of my flaws sometimes. right Marty 🙂

  23. MQ,
    You probably will not be surprised then that at Int we were conditioned to view other SO staff at “lower” orgs as the enemy. You guys at Flag were all out to get us, to say nothing of AOLA, CC Int and, of course, the dreaded ASHO.
    This is why seeing Tommy Davis bumping his gums as chief church spokes-always seemed hysterical. (I write that in past tense, since Tommy is gone from the scene, probably consigned to the Hole and never to be heard from again.) At any rate, you can imagine what the impression was of the public on services. Peee-eeeeeeeeew! What’s that smell?!

  24. The truth with which one lives is the soundest basis for any relationship.

  25. Ray Randolph thank you for everything you did and respect you endured as much as you did. Marty and Mike thank you for communicating.

    “I demanded poppy seed muffins, I was promised poppy-seed muffins… I never received them. Criminals.”

    As a “member” of Anonymous I am apalled that the caek your were promissed was a lie ! http://images.icanhascheezburger.com/completestore/2008/7/1/whatdumeenn128594545381859936.jpg
    “I will be here to protest you.” I manlove you in a good way 😉

    Saluting the Old Guard , Cat Daddy

  26. LP, allow me to echo your sentiments. Very well stated. It has taken me a while to have my own cognition on this, probably because I was mostly a public person, never on staff or in SO, and so my experiences were for the most part in the positive to exhilirating spectrum. As such, it was hard for me to duplicate so much hostility. But as I read about the experiences of many others, most of whom appear to have been either on staff or SO, it has became more & more clear that indeed, we created almost all our own enemies. And for absolutely NO GOOD REASON, given the powerful tools we have at our disposal for doing good. Now it is up to us to repair the damage. Kudos to all those who recognized this long since.

  27. Ray, I know little or nothing about you. I haven’t heard of you or your site before this. I do need to acknowledge your support of Marty and this blog.
    I know Marty and what you see is what you get. He is the real deal. I have been accused of supporting an attempt to destroy Scientology but nothing can be further from the truth. Its the current ‘Church’ thats the problem.
    I think we can agree on that. Those of us who think Scientology technology works are here to help salvage the ‘tech’ from the ‘Church’ and make it free
    to be used to help ourselves and others. We are fighting for freedom, not to destroy.

  28. hey, sir, haven´t noticed responses to what seem to be yours in the prior page?

  29. Remember, it’s not the Bullets that kill…it’s the HOLES!



  30. One thing that seems to be forgotten in the Church of Miscavology is that no matter what happens, and no matter what we do about expelling or “shunning” people, the door is ALWAYS open a crack. Always. Another off policy and out tech point in Mr. David Miscavige’s organization.

    Ray, thanks for posting – I for one am glad to read this! I did some posting and reading of ARS since the mid-nineties, and I remember your web site. I have to say I was not pleased, but whatever. At the time, I had hopes for an internal cleansing, and also, I knew that there were a number of stories that were flat out not true (because I was there), so I discounted virtually all stories because of that. One has to be in “Missouri Mode” (“Show me!”) when something near and dear to you is being attacked. Of course, we all know what happened since – the church, on a deviated path, deviated so far away that it is now no longer Scientology.

    So, Ray – thanks for your support. That means a lot.

    Marty – you never cease to amaze me! This is all goodness.

  31. Hi Jonathon;

    Thanks! A real walk down memory lane.

    As Tory said, these are the people, and many more not listed, that opened the first real salvos against the CofS, and caused the CofS lawyers and spammers sweat, hardship and loss of sleep because it soon became obvious that things were changing, and these people were NOT going to go away.

  32. I really didn’t see DM as the end-all-be-all of the problem. I guess if I had to sum up what I said in my post — “I believed the organization was foul. I knew the people in general were not. In the end, despite my doubts, or really because of them… I can say that the beliefs were never my issue. It was, as I said all along, the behavior.”

    I don’t buy into the tech, and yawn if you must, but I don’t buy into Jesus, Mohammed or the great flying spaghetti monster, and I don’t buy into a whole lot of things. In the end, the battle was about rights, human rights, speech rights, etc. To use a terrible cliche, “I may not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right say it.”

    Please don’t take my statements about the “tech” as an attack. It is what it is, and I am not YOUR enemy. Perhaps I do not understand the tech. I grant you that. I will deliver the tech to you with nothing but well wishes, all while acknowledging that perhaps I DO NOT understand it. But my understanding it really isn’t the point at all, is it? I’m okay with not understanding it, I hope you are okay with my not understanding it, but ultimately, I don’t need to understand it for you to have my support in practicing it.

    I don’t ask for anyone to say “scn-kills” was a great thing. That it wasn’t bigotry. That mockery of Xenu wasn’t all bigotry. These are all things I still think on. As I said, you don’t need my validation. But Marty posting my entry …. well, that speaks to a concept greater than this debate. It speaks to, if nothing more, tolerance. I respect your beliefs, even if I do not understand them. That, I think, is all anyone could ever ask when it comes to a respect of their beliefs.

  33. @Ray – I enjoyed your interesting and remarkable comments. I’ve been on the margins of Scientology for several years enjoying the books and technologies. I never got involved in the organization (COS) nor with the “anti-cultists” because I thought both were too spooky. Nonetheless, there is value there that I can see. It’s gratifying to see a “Great Middle” emerge attended to by experienced and learned people. Scientology now has a chance to live up to its potential and discard maladaptive elements and practices. If it wasn’t for the “middle view” website (Another Look at Scientology) by some guy named Bernie, I wouldn’t be here today, still interested and still curious. @Marty – keep up the good work. You’re doing great things.

  34. I think that was perhaps my intent. Shock value! Understand at the time that there was not any separation of the subject and the entity of Scientology. The church simply wouldn’t allow the concept of Scientology being other than Scientology, Inc. The timing isn’t insignificant either, the Lisa McPherson thing had just broken.

    Also, it’s important to note that “$cientology KILLS,” was meant to be provocative, but I really honestly did steal it from CCHR — the imagery, the shock value, the whole deal, was in the hopes (to mangle a Henry V quote) of making the original sender blush. Check it out….

  35. Hi Tom;

    You know, back on ARS, having been a ‘declared’ SP was considered a badge of honor. Receiving kobrina-grams had status, getting letters of copyright infringement had status, being sued by the CofS had status, even if you lost you were honored, and if you won, you got gold leaf clusters by your name. Some people had several titles. I think Tory has a super-duper gold leaf cluster or something like that.

    It was a lot of fun, a real game. Must have driven OSA nuts.

  36. Also, I know several ‘declared’ SPs who framed their golden rods and put them on the wall! It was proof that they stood up and said ‘No!’. Any who came in to visit got the whole story and a tour of ARS and ACT. Many newbies came in that way.

  37. Hi Ray,
    I did not know know before this post by Marty but I can say I admire your ability to turn on a dime when observable facts present themselves candidly.
    What immediately comes to my mind is an incident that occured in the mid 1970’s where a situation occured in the LA area where we had terminal cancer cases coming to the church organiations for help thus causing a dilema.
    This whole thing got out of hand with some Scientlogists reccomending they go to a Phillipino Finger healer who practised “Psycho Surgery” in Tijauna Mexico.
    A it snowballed into a faction for and a faction against it resulting in an enquiry within the church known as a Board of Investigation.

    I was in the faction against it convinced of my rightness in what I was “sure” was what L Ron Hubbard’s view on this was.
    Someone had informed L Ron Hubbard about this matter at the time.

    When the telex came down from L Ron Hubbard himself advising he was aware of what Phillipino Finger healing “Psycho Surgery” having himself witnessed it and not to make an issue of it in that if anyone went there to see the Phllipino Finger Healer that was fine but at the same time don’t promote it .

    This cooled the whole matter off and I was left with this streak of fanaticism dislodged from my mind .

    It took a few days to get over the initial shock of being reversed in my thinking but the result was constructive in that I realized my erroneous conclusion had taken a pounding and now I could begin to look and see in that area again.

    Had I continued with that view of being convinced of my rightness in that matter I would have developed a cult mentality except for that intevention by Mr. L Ron Hubbard ‘s advice via his telex which clearly demonstrated his wisdom for me.
    This example to me is what I perceive can be the Scientology that you or anyone else can co-exist with .

  38. Ray I remember your $cientology Kills website and the Scamizdat postings by Grady on ARS and the cancelpoodle issued by Helen- A -Cobra.

    Those were were the days when www stood for wild, wilder and wildest 🙂

    Anyway Ray thanks for the post and Marty get this boy some poppy seed muffins he deserves them.

  39. Yes. Joe Harrington was Skamizdat. He did have some help, though. Imominous, I read it that Ray meant that he had confessed to being Skamizdat, in the same way many people confessed to being skamizdat at that time when OSA was going ballistic looking everywhere for skamizdat, so everyone at the time said “it was me!”, “no, it was me!”, “no, ME”!
    That was fun. 🙂

    Ray, I never thought I would see the day…….this is a good day indeed. The day when critics and exes and anons and freezoners and indies unite to end the abuses and the rampant corruption is a good day.

    Thanks for posting this.

    Kim Baker

  40. Ray,

    Funny how minds can change isn’t it? Maybe there’s hope after all. Just maybe.


  41. Hello Ray —

    It seems that people are intent on having THEIR church, THEIR technology, THEIR God, THEIR Country be the best. And IF it means killing or harming anyone who disagrees, well, that must be God’s will or whomever is THE boss.

    It’s an old old game and we are all used to it. We are accustomed to it. It’s “just the way things are.”

    But, it doesn’t HAVE to be this way.

    If you ask yourself honestly – do my actions help another person NOT JUST MY EGO – then my guess is — you are somehow on the Middle Way.

    Scientology without HARMING others could and should exist IF someone wants to follow that system. And the litmus test is ASK — did my actions just hurt you? (ie. having your child disconnect from you? – as an example)

    I think Marty, Mike, Steve, Jim and others are working to helping bring about a scientology that helps and doesn’t harm.

    Thank you Ray for speaking up and acknowledging that.


  42. See? I wanted to! Frame my Golden Rod declare.
    No one bothered to get me a copy. 😦
    I’ve been robbed! Even asking for copies has netted nada.

  43. I posted this on the WWP site as well. I did not intend to take credit for what Joe posted. Great guy, he has my utmost respect and gratitude for what he did.

    Here is what I posted: “Clarification…. My confession of being Scamizdat, as I stated in my post was, “I am Spartacus”… During depo, the cult tried to pin me down to several posts, some of which I made, and many of which I did not – those are likely the Joe Harrington posts and others. Grady’s defense tactic at the time was that Scamizdat was a “movement” not an individual. That there were many people involved in the movement, and it couldn’t be pinned on Grady exclusively.

    I never ever intended, in that post or anywhere else to imply anything other than that.”

    I did a quick google and found some reference to what was going on at that time. http://www.scientology-lies.com/gradyward1.html

    I meant no disrespect to Johan, to Joe Harrington Especially, and if it came across as if I was taking credit for being *THE* scamizdat, you have my most humble appy polly loggies.

  44. Standard tech is standard tech anywhere in the world, per LRH.

    An SP is an SP anywhere in the world, per LRH.

    One does not always need to do the Data Series Evaluators’s Course {although it could help} in order to know when a person is criticizing an activity of the church on behalf of the correct tech or criticizing someone or something out of one’s own case.

    I find this a very important factor in dealing with anyone on the subject of Dianetics and Scientology.

    Thank you, for filling people in too.

  45. Does any one know when Pat and Anne Broker left Scientology and what for. Could they not continue Scientology after they left their posistions?

  46. Martin Ottmann

    This is so funny. Who had ever thought that first generation of “ARS veterans” would meet one day on the website of the former “IG Ethics RTC”?

    While visiting him in Sweden in 1999, Joe Harrington told me privately that it was him who had posted the upper material under the name of “Scamizdat”.

  47. I’m not sure my mind ever changed. I always believed it was the practices that were the problem.

  48. Ray, pay no attention to OTVIII.
    He’s got a wild hair up his butt for some reason.
    Most of us are giving you a “standing O” for your courage to speak here and extend the olive branch.
    Most of us never bought into the “holier than thou” (scientologese = ser-fac) when it came to our movement.
    Why would it ever make sense to make people wrong if they disagree or protest?
    Organizations DO have to take certain legal and PR actions sometimes to in defense of property and image. But what we’ve seen with Miscavige and his SO thuggery is so far beyond reason as to be insane. Which is exactly what it is.

    I thank Marty for posting this and for your willingness to come here and communicate.
    A simple thing and really not all that complicated is it?

  49. OneBigServFac

    The Sonny Bono Copyright Extension Act (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyright_Term_Extension_Act) was a huge PR mistake for the Church. It seemed to be cravenly aimed at protecting LRH copyrightsthat would have been expiring – or using copyright as a cudgel against disaffecteds – but the fix was so anathema to Internet culture and so tone deaf to where popular sentiment was headed. Instead of supporting “more freedom”, the church was on the side of Disney and other publishers.

  50. Unity Mitford

    LRH got his facts mixed up in that story – its something I’ve heard erroneously repeated among Scientologists before and I’d like to set the story straight.
    It wasn’t Lima or Peru, it happened in Quito, Ecuador in 1949.

    The people in Quito, Ecuador did not riot and burn down the radio station due to “War of the Worlds” alien panic – but rioted because they were pissed about the radio stations tricking them. Hell they had voice actors impersonate leaders in govt. and other figures in the broadcast so they had ever reason to be pissed. People started leaving their houses in panic, flooding churches to pray and when the radio station noticed the panic this was starting to cause they realized they needed to let everyone in on the little secret. AND that’s when the people got mad, that’s when the riot started and they burned down the radio station. Not due to alien panic, but because they were pissed at trickery.

    You can read the details here:

    At last the station staff realised just what was happening in the streets. A belated admission and plea for calm was broadcast, which is when things got really serious. Up until this moment, no one appears to have been seriously hurt, but now a great many people in Quito were acutely aware they had been fooled, and were looking for something or someone to vent their fury upon. El Comercio, the largest and most respected paper in the country, owned radio Quito and the station was housed in the same building as the newspaper. It was to this location that the mob advanced, and in what might have seemed an ironic act by the crowd, set fire to copies of the El Comercio newspaper and hurled these (and other objects) at the building. The main entrance was blocked and a fire swiftly broke out. Some of the besieged staff of 100 people escaped from a rear exit, but many were trapped on upper floors and were forced in some desperate cases to leap from windows.

    More on the story for anyone interested is also detailed in:
    “The war of the worlds: Mars’ invasion of earth, inciting panic and inspiring … By Alex Lubertozzi” — The Ecuador story starts about page 85

  51. Yes, this is incredible! Of all things!! I knew Joe was Scamizdat since 1995. Joe Harrington was a wonderful, wonderful person, and he would have been so very happy to see this day.

  52. Thought Provoking

    Ditto, on the grade 0 comment.

  53. Now, this is not to say that you “deliberately overlooked anything” but didn’t I just say that way up very early on this topic.

    You are absolutely right. I am glad you discovered that I agree with you.
    Even before you knew it.

    But, on a lighter topic, perhaps one could put things this way instead of using the word KILLS:

    1. Scientology Is Not Nice
    2. Scientology Causes Bad Stuff
    3. Scientology….

    And the list could go on, but, I do agree misapplication of Scientology NEVER, EVER works. Not in this uninverse or any other.

    Once you know, you NEW EGG!

  54. Pat Broeker left in late ’89 when Miscavige canceled his “Loyal officer” status.

    (There is still a question of the provenance of the FO ‘The SO and the Future’)

    Anne didn’t and remained in the SO after Pat left and as far as I know is still there.

    In either case neither of them are continuing in Scientology as far as I know.

  55. Nosferatu: your question presumes they both have left Co$. If you had accurate information on that, then you ought to already know the particulars.

    Michael A. Hobson

  56. Ray,

    Yours is a hard post to respond to as I’ve never met you, had any dealings with you and was completely unaware of you till an hour ago. But a post like that – well, it deserves a response or even a recognition. What you say is true enough, regulars here don’t really NEED your validation, but:

    Manners is a funny thing – most cultures have at least a form of greeting and it usually boils down to meaning that someone else is important enough to be acknowledged and their presence be noted. Good manners dictates that one should respond in kind, so here’s mine.

    I suppose being critical is kinda easy. Find some stupid person in a group, find some behavior worthy of criticism and off you go. It’s much harder doing it the other way round, to acknowledge the good in something once you have criticized it. For me at least it usually works that way.

    If Marty’s the kind of Scientologist you could co-exist with, then you’d be the kind of critic I could co-exist with too.

    See BS, call BS.
    See good, call that too.

    That’s the best kind of critic, it’s very hard to ignore someone who does that as you can’t really brush them off as a biased so-and-so. The ability to differentiate makes one stand out, gives you some altitude and presence, and causes most folk to be more inclined to pay attention and listen. I’ve had bosses like that – the best kind.

    I’d like to say thanks for writing your post, I think that took some honesty and guts. Keep Marty on his toes and not let him give an inch by all means – I’d expect no less. In return, we’re not all like DM – most of us are just regular folks trying to get by with what we feel works best. No horns, no paranoia, no eternal spouting off about space aliens and weird shit. Just regular Joes. But I think you already know that 🙂


  57. Yes… and most of the posts that they were trying to pin on me were posted by “RonIsXenu”. Again, some of those I did, some I did not. The Church, at the time, was trying to lump Vorlon, Scamizdat and various other anonymous postings all into one big lump. This was, I think, what really lead to Grady’s take that “Scamizdat” was a movement. I’m very cautious about wanting to speak for Grady, though. He was a far braver soul than I, and he really got screwed.

  58. Marty I think you were still in. Can you tell me about Jeremy Perkins and Ellie Perkins. Did Jeremy get reverse auditing when he went to the ship or not?

    See Ellie was why I stayed with the tech all these years. She was my very first auditor and was supposed to be my last one just a few years before the incident happened and I was deadfiled at ASHO. I was sent to ASHO over getting auditing by her. I would have been better off getting it from her. Church policy forbade as she was not official staff.

    The Buffalo Org did not have any auditors then? I am curious of what is. You can email me if you wish as you have my email.

    Because Jeremy was my twin on the M1 course and I now realize the stupid what we thought was an FN on him was a theta bop in the drills.

    My theory was he never wanted to be there in the first place and was kind of forced to due to family involvement.

    I saw ARS back in the late 90’s. I discounted a lot of stuff I saw there but then I was deadfiled and when I bought my computer slowly I let myself read stuff on the web about the church. When I found the Freezone the lid was blown off for me. It still took me years of not wanting to return. I no longer have any desire to return. It took me years of reading on the web and other things to learn you can’t fix a broken system but replace it. It is always why I been telling people of the resource based economy. Can’t fix what is broken but one needs to replace it. The tech and net reading got me to see this in all it’s form.

  59. Theo Sismanides

    Ray, I will acknowledge your courage and honesty in all this. I was not much involved with ARS or the SCN kills sites though I have been out since 2000.

    However, tolerance is the word and you have a right to communicate and be heard here. I am happy that we all have this conversation here, because this is the true meaning of Understanding (ARC, Affinity, Reality, Communication).

    It’s all about Understanding our fellow man and ourselves. Supposedly. Some have made it look that way: supposedly. I don’t come down to that level. I stay to your level where we, even if not fully understanding each other’s beliefs and viewpoints, still can communicate freely and without any mis-emotions. Again well done for being into this.

  60. Hey Martin,

    Weren’t the Samizdat postings based on the Fishman Affidavit?

    Also I personally feel that it was Helena Cobrin’s incompetent handing of the situation at the behest of you know who that contributed to the whole scene.

    Before that of course was the effort to “handle” Fishman himself in a lawsuit.

    However the stage had already been set when RTC took Mayo to court over the authorship of NOTs.

    Anyway while we’re on the topic of the good ol’ days.

    I thought I’d include a link that probably gave Miscavige quite a few sleepless nights and actually the first attack by a shadowy group that called itself anonymous:


    Later to become known as ‘The Squirrel Watcher’:


    My favorite is the following on the ‘Wit and Wisdom of David Miscavige’ which still stands the test of time:


  61. Thought Provoking


    Thank you for this post. In regards to attacking the subject, one can only evaluate with the data one has and it seems like the data you had caused you to believe the subject should be attacked.

    One of the truly wonderful things about Marty’s site and the truth being revealed is that we all get more data with which to evaluate the church vs Scientology (the subject) and our relationships with each.

    In many ways, this truly has been one really big 3rd party investigation and the 3rd party is DM. Now that this is out in the light ones former enemies can handled by addressing past ARCXs and they can now communicate with each other in a new unit of time, thus establish new realities and new understandings.

    It’s good to get rid of the fixed ideas that have kept Scientology small.

  62. “I knew Gandhi was kind of a dictator for the ones near to him. That does not make me aprrieciate his struggle for independance less. It just shows that any kind of power one atains can result peopple running their own unresolved issues on others around him/her. Marty do you have a Scientology description for this situation . I am curious.”

    CD, I think we’d just call that keyed-in. Someone has “issues” on a subject or is aberrated on it, and they dramatize it. The way it plays out in real life is not as important as recognizing that it is just dramatization. Maybe toss in some missed-withholdness to account for doing it to others.

    I use the word “aberrated” in it’s most literal sense – departure from rational thought. Churchies often use it in a derogatory sense to belittle some target, I’m not using it that way.

  63. You have a valid point, Marty. I am an iconoclast by nature. I did see some of Stewarts interview but I find him a great mis-director himself (another story) I find Gandhi a fascinating historical character. His racist comments (if you saw the Penn and Teller video) are, however, over the top. It might not have been warranted for me to comment on your comment because the quote you gave was self-evident and true but I thought you should be made aware of his comments regarding Africans as we both have an unusally high interest in “black” culture. While I do not have to answer to my friends in that culture, they always appreciate it. In any event, it is great to stir up some views here and thank you for allowing the dialogue. I’ll stir up more if you let me! Thank you.

  64. Hi Kim,

    You likely don’t know me from a bar of soap, but we met once. In Pretoria Org, many years ago, you had just arrived from Cape Town.

    A long time later there was an insane amount of third party flying around about you – all the usual BS, details not important. Sad to say, some of it came straight from Simon.

    That’s in the past now, I’m long since over it and odds are good my friends on staff then are now saying similar things about me. And I couldn’t give a flying hoot about that either 🙂

    I figured I should at least mention it to you in an as-it kind of way, y’ know?

  65. Damn, forgot to sign the post. I do that too much.

    My name’s Alan.

  66. Viewing other staff and public as enemies is totally insane, per every definition I can think of.

  67. As you properly use the term, $cientology does kill. Scientology is different than $cientology.

  68. When the local DSA declared me suppressive over the phone, I joined an anonymous protest and made a big fluorescent pink “Scientology Kills” sign. I just wanted to press some buttons, especially for the benefit of my new enemy, OSA. When I look back on it, it was kind of embarrassing. I would not do it again. Mind you that Ken Ogger and Shawn Lonsdale did die under suspicious circumstances, and I felt that some attention should be called to that.

    Why would the phrase “Scientology Kills” make anyone upset? Simply because it appeals to emotion rather than logic. It is like saying “Water Kills” or “Hamburgers Kill” or something like that. Yes, people drown, and saturated fat may contribute to heart disease, but these statements do nothing to lead to the resolution of any problem.

    Scientology is simply a collection of ideas. The ideas can be incorrectly applied or altered. When lots of people on NOTs in the church are dying at a relatively young age, we can look on the outside to Phil Spickler to see how things really should be.

  69. OT VIII,
    Ya know, I just gotta tell ya, you communicate like an arrogant bully, what with calling people pieces of shit and all. It really just discounts anything else you have to say.

  70. It’s not the holes that kill, it’s the fact the blood all drains out from the holes.

  71. Which practices do you feel are a problem?

  72. Nice to meet ya, Ray.

  73. No intent to offend. Another quick google brought up this http://www.religio.de/publik/arsreview/080398.html#8

    I’m really not wanting to diminish Joe’s actions at all. Not my intent today, and not my intent in 1989 when I declared, “I am scamizdat!”. He was a hero.

  74. Ray,

    “The Practices.” Ah, those. Those ghosts of the dark side haunting our lives and making us so much…less. How to define “the practices?” Are there different practices? Are “the practices” the crazy legal and illegal and quasi-legal strategies employed by the church against critics? Or are “the practices” the ones that a fair number of people swear improved their lives?

    Ah, the ghosts moaning in the attic. Thoooooooosssssssse Praaaaaac Tiiiiiiiissss eeeeeeeeeeeeesssssssss!

    Just funnin’ wit’ yah, Ray.

    If, after ten years, your mind has not changed I would assume that you are being…uh…modest? Obtuse? Fixated? You don’t seem obtuse. You don’t seem fixated. And the audacity you’ve shown, I can’t believe you’re modest.

    Every time we learn something, our minds change. Even if fractionally. The more we learn, the more we change. Of course you could argue that you are that blank slate, and that no matter what gets written on the slate, the slate remains the same. Just the writing changes. Not you.

    Or arguments of that sort.

    You could get philosophical and ask, “Who am I?” and define “self” as something that does not change, thus blow my silly idea out of the water. What idea? That you’ve changed. That you’ve grown. That you’ve learned a few things and maybe become a bit more tolerant. Who knows?

    But, from my Polly-Anna-point of view, I think we’re all changing. And I like many of the changes.

    I like those changes so much, I’d like to see more.

    As long as we’re very, very, very careful to avoid “the practices” at all costs. Brrrrrrr! Shudder! Shake!


  75. Oldfox~Wow, what a great story.

  76. Speaking of loss leaders, there is a new HQS Course that sounds remarkably like the old HQS Course of the 70s that was dirt cheap but which made just about everybody into a Scientologists and got them onto further services. It cost 75 bucks, and took forever and the mission lost money like crazy, until the person graduated, at which point the mission made money like crazy. DM is apparently rolling that out now as the latest big thing. But he’s probably charging 10 grand for it, so it, of course, will simply be another step on his way to the gallows.

  77. Windhorse,

    I love my EGO more than anything else in the world. I worship my EGO.

    And then my EGO ran away with someone else.

    If love is being willing to let go, then maybe I just didn’t love my EGO enough. I still get teary-eyed watching my EGO dance with someone else in some smokey bar full of rank pheromones and cheap perfume–knowing my EGO will go home with someone else.


    Ah, the pain of love.


  78. The universal solvent at work, and the result is understanding. Hmm, that reminds me of something. Ah, yes. ARC.

    DM, I know you read this blog. Please answer this: When was the last time you got into good ARC with a Scientologist in an org? Not at one of your black tie millionaire 5 star reg cotillions, but at a local CL 5 org? When was the last time you personally helped a student do a drill, or spot check him, or star rate someone? Remember the pics of LRH at St Hill standing over the TR students, intently seeing they were doing it right? He cared.

    Do you? Because you don’t seem to. I remember seeing Heber once at CC in the mid 90’s, getting a metered exam. He was involved. He interacted. He cared. He walked among us.

    I dont know where you walk, but it seems that you wont go anywhere that does not lead to piles of cash being thrown in your direction.

    You probably spent millions to subdue this fellow Ray when a little ARC, and on-source tech would have done the trick. Try Scientology, Dave. It works.


  79. Thanks Ray, you cleared up a few things I wondered about years ago. I worked with Grady Ward every day at the LMT. What a character! I say this in a good way since I always enjoyed his company. Nice hearing from Martin Ottmann too. We had some common interests that I was able to help him with. Remember Trade-Net scandal? I wonder what ever happened to Erwin A. ?? He never shredded his papers. It seems like ages ago. -Bob Peterson.

  80. ^^This. Oh and /SALUTE OG. We found yer lain down sword and picked it up and gave it a good shine. Hope we wear it well. Your thoughts here on Marty’s blog is dually noted.

  81. Confirmed Dan,
    Most of the time before I left were spent away from the Int Base and mingling with FSO or Flag Crew was considered “fraternizing” with those who were not on one’s own level or echelon of “need to know”. Never mind having to rub elbows and spending more time with these guys during the day. One was supposed to keep a certain distance away.

  82. If it’s the original HQS Course than it probably has Mary Sue’s original checksheet.

  83. Thank you for this well written essay Ray ~~ and time tracking those early days.

    Every time I connect with someone I have been carefully indoctrinated to believe is a a high velocity ENEMY, I never cease to be amazed at how much goodness there is when the person is viewed from a 360 degree perspective. I am avidly seeking out to connect with others who have been the recipient of DIRTY TRICKS as I am a recent recipient ….

    In my Journey I have long since moved off the posture of BLACK and WHITE. There are many shades of grey, and Marty said it so well in his essay http://www.scientology-cult.com/great-middle-path.html

    Ray, I am so very pleased that Marty posted your essay…….

    and greatly enjoyed the telephone updates to DM throughout the deposition.

    OUCH for “Office of COB”. The pretended “distance” between DM and matters re “Internet Dissidents” and the Dirty Tricks and “running” RTC and OSA down to the minute.

    Ray, I like you already.
    I have sent you a FACEBOOK request to be a friend.

  84. Once Upon a Time —

    I need a translator 🙂


  85. Ray,
    I remember your website very well . And I liked it. I didn’t see it as an insult but as an attempt to wake people up ( those in Co$ as well as outsiders ) – with the purpose to stop or reduce suffering.

    And I thank you for being there as one of the early fighters for human rights and free speech.

    I consider it really important to shine the light on Co$ abuses. So let me share a sad story that hasn’t yet been told on the net :

    It happened in the small org of Dusseldorf, Germany, in 1986 or so.

    The org had just one person trained as Case Supervisor ( someone who supervises auditing ), an elder lady named Jutta Demeler.

    She got a serious illness – I was told it was leucaemia. She wanted to go to Flag to get it cured with NOTS-auditing. But she wasn’t permitted to leave. The org wasn’t able to deliver auditing without her ! And she followed the order not to leave. So the precious little time left to handle the illness after its outbreak wasn’t utilized.

    The weeks passed by, and she got weaker and weaker. Finally she was taken to hospital and received chemo therapy. After that she wanted to get auditing – but she couldn’t ! After the chemo therapy she was required to do the purification program first. This is a lengthy program. And shortly afterwards she was in hospital again … and died.

    She had served Co$ for years. But when she was in dire need of help no one cared about her. Only statistics and production were important.

    After her death the org ED ( executive director ) published some drivel claiming “Jutta had decided to leave her body”.

    No, she had not decided to leave ! She had wanted to go to Flag in an attempt to get help ! And the ED had stopped her from going – in the face of a known dangerous disease.

    One of many similar events, as evidenced on your website at that time, Ray. Thanks again for what you did.

  86. This “Ray” guy is probably like some in the olden days who would always be seeking “the kind of Negro I can live near.”

    A waste of my time spending it on this ignoramous. He doesn’t like “the tech.” BECAUSE HE FUCKING DOESN’T KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT IT.

    It is intellectually honest and sometimes courageous to take a stand against injustice and stupidity. But to be in “gleeful protest mode” against something you are clueless about achieves absolutely nothing.

    I’d rather see no daily post on this essential blog than see this kind of idiocy.

  87. There was even an internal echelon within PAC consisting of Sea Org members who personally had to deal with us non-SO lepers on staff there and those who didn’t have to deal with us.

  88. Thanks for the info, Unity. Yes, LRH said it was Quito, Ecuador…I mis-remembered. And getting the facts about this incident actually “blows charge” for me, and highlights (imho) what this is really all about: Betrayal After Trust. Huge, huge “button”. One that most beings do not forgive or forget. And one that is practiced daily by RTC, and the Minions of DM (amongst others.)

  89. At least I said *bleep*! Maybe I had meant “pumpkin pie” (with whipped cream on top)?

    When the ill-intentioned and uniformed call the life-giving and life-saving subject of Scientology “a killer”, I reserve the right to launch.

    I’ll never back off from that. No one will ever shut me up on that.

  90. Go for it, OTDT, make him eat poop! At the very least, he’s likely a boogereater.

  91. I’ve gone through pretty much exactly the same thought process as Ray. I’m sure I frequented his site back in the day.

    I’m all about the Middle Way…it’s tough though. Nobody likes a moderate. Just ask our President…or Bush Sr., or Carter, or Ford.

  92. WH,

    Don’t we all sometimes?


  93. RJ asked: “Weren’t the Samizdat postings based on the Fishman Affidavit?”

    Yes, they were. Also, some editions included a fake OT VI created by Martin Hunt using some sort of random word generator. 🙂

  94. Somehow I doubt it is the original HQS course. Didn’t I read somewhere it doesn’t have the co-auditing on it? Unless it does cost a fortune. Otherwise why would DM allow co-auditing, when he charges Flag rates for auditing on Objectives?

    Isn’t the last thing he wants to do, is actually make any more actual Scientologists? And, if it does have the co-audit, will anyone be able to get past the Examiner?

  95. Joe Pendleton says;

    “A waste of my time spending it on this ignoramous. He doesn’t like “the tech.” BECAUSE HE FUCKING DOESN’T KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT IT.”

    C’mon Joe, your response isnt exactly showing off your mastery of the subject either. At least this guy communicates to us, not at us.

  96. Of course you and OT VIII are entitled to feel the way you do.

    Though it sets up a games condition of some kind.

    The fact is (and maybe you can correct me if I’m wrong Ray) that the Church was in the wrong when they attacked freedom of speech on the internet (anyone remember the Code of a Scientologist clause 10?) which many netizens took as an affront to their personal liberty and that of others.

    So they retaliated.

    In other words the Church made enemies instead by failing to apply ‘First Policy’ and also in their ham handed approach in handling dissent on the internet.

    Ron talks about this in LRH Aides Conference on “Covert Operations”
    2 November 69

    (begin fair use quote)

    The Lenin, Lenin’s definition of power and force and his attitude and that is this: potential power, or power, or a strong entity of any kind whatsoever whether individual, organisation or national, if it became an enemy – this is Lenin – if it became an enemy, why it would be very dangerous to Communism, so therefore the only safe way to handle any powerful entity is to treat it as a potential enemy. This is the woof and warp of Communism see – to treat it as a potential enemy. And one can’t believe that he never thought the thought through that if you treat something as a potential enemy you will eventually get an active enemy.

    (end fair use quote)

    So if you guys want to hold a grudge and continue to make enemies that’s your prerogative but I’d rather make friends and Ray seems like a person I’d share a poppy seed muffin with 😉 (Marty you should fix Ray up with Mrs. Beasily or something like that) just shooting the sh*t and far as I’m concerned he’s welcome here any time he wants to drop in and post.

  97. Yeah you’re probably right Valkov.

    I thought his satanic majesty might have had a fleeting moment of sanity or that someone might have bypassed Scientology’s answer to Anton LaVey.

  98. Dear Karen-

    I like like Ray, too. This post has been another one of those enlightening, informative, healing communications/conversations that continue to rock the “theta universe” (in my humble opinion). I was going to post off of Sarge’s sage comments but here I am. (Never-the-less, thanks Sarge! This was not on my radar either.)

    Today, I’ve been re-reading passages from the Tao Te Ching in a new unit of time.

    Some things I’ve chewed on: Wisdom & knowledge, knowing & not-knowing, understanding & tolerance, war and skirmishes. Concepts that all require perspective. Your reference to Marty’s earlier post hit home with me. Here’s a passage and an accurate summation:

    “Think for yourself. ”

    With that let me deliver thanks to Marty, Ray, Karen, Mike and all of the other good folks who shine a light on what I guess we all seek.

    Tomorrow’s another day.

    The question is who’s going to create it?

    Sincerely yours,

    Tom Gallagher

  99. Joe,

    Your criticism is valuable. My initial instincts are to tell you that I knew more about the tech than I let on. I think, however, you may have missed the point — It was never about “the tech.”

  100. Scott Campbell

    Wow Marty,

    Seems the responses this post has elicited have really run the gamut on the tone scale.

    Glad to see that you continue to apply the HCOB, “You Can Be Right”.

    It is the right thing to do.


  101. Yeah I remember being part of a special project to keep the Affidavit out of the hands of journalists.

    We had teams composed of ex-GO who went to the Federal Court House during the week past the three ring circus known as the OJ Simpson trial and through the metal detectors to court records office where we sat all day with one of the many files related to the case which needless to say made interesting reading.

    Remember that op Mike?

    A useless exercise since Fishman had a copy of his own that he turned over to Arnie Lerma and the rest as they say is history.

    With the exception of some of the OT III material which was covered in an earlier LA Times expose’ after the Wollersheim fiasco much of it was disinformation yet the Cobra took a hissy fit and tried to nuke ARS and Lerma.

    At the time I didn’t think there was a stupider move than good ol’ Op Freakout but I guess I was wrong!

    If they she was smart she could have convinced OSA to use the ol’ Glomar Response but I think her and Dave had an IQ that was less than their combined shoe sizes.

  102. Another Note about my T-shirts. Long before I started making them, Jeff Jacobsen coined the term “Gandhi Tech”.. non-violent, passive resistance to scientology’s aggressive attempts to shut us down in various ways.

    This is from memory, and I’m unable to locate ARS posts to corroborate my story, so perhaps some black-belts in Google-Fu can help out here…..

    Near the end of my activity, someone somewhere made the argument that the T-shirts were “violent”… what with the dripping blood and all. I did what any arrogant 20-something would do. I tracked down the email of Arun Gandhi. Grandson of Mahatma Gandhi.

    I emailed him, sent him pictures of my shirts, explained the whole struggle as best I could in an email to an outsider. He responded. He told me that my shirts were violent. That words, ideas, imagery, etc could all be violent. That he knew his grandfather would not have viewed them as “non-violent protest”. Not sure of the point of all this. Except to say, to those who are now vehemently chastising me, that all along the way,iIt really did matter.

    I thought I had posted my email from Arun to ARS, but I simply cannot find it now.

  103. Wow. I’d have never, ever expected such a convergence.

    I still have my a.r.s SP t-shirt that Podkayne or somebody had made a batch of.

  104. one of those who see

    Ray, thank you for your honesty and for posting here.
    Marty, this is another indicator that you are going in the right direction.
    Real Scientology is about truth, communication and granting beingness.
    I see him, LRH giving you a big nod.
    And i see great Courage from both you and Ray.

  105. “Scientology Kills”. That sentiment, rallying cry, web site name has always irked me Ray.

    But I know the truth behind it. Scientologists have and still do try to cure physical illness with auditing, when PER SCIENTOLGY Policy, they should be barred from auditing until the physical condition has been addressed. (and while still using the appropriate scientology technology to address the other issues in their life that have contributed to their illness)

    So in truth peoples misapplication of scientology has lead to deaths, usually by cancer, left untreated. And this because of a culture among scientologists.

    But then was it scientology that killed?

    Sort of.

    Its a catchy slogan.

    I wish people would take more time and trouble to live by more than slogans, and also less by social pressures.

  106. Joe Pendleton

    Ray, thanks for your response. I appreciate it.

    I know it’s not about the tech. The reason that so many of us long time auditors and Case Supervisors participate in many of these blogs (and Marty’s is the best) is that we are in protest against what our once beloved church has become – authoritarian, fascistic, centered on money and false status. And I’m now willing to say that maybe it was moving in that direction even in 1970 when I became involved in it. Yes, and that maybe LRH, because of his own personal problems, was the one who gave it the major push in that direction.

    But my reaction to your saying that you found much of the tech “repugnant” is due to almost four decades of my intense study of that tech and application of it and thousands of cognitions and wins from it.

    So I recognize the “body of work” of LRH and it’s value, quite apart from any other factors. And thus my response to what I thought was a very brutal dismissal of the tech, which was not accompanied by specific criticisms or based on any deep study or understanding of it.

  107. Lawrence – The church of scientology and scientology are two-different-things. Scientology and David Miscavige are two-different-things.

    When one starts to identify two things that should be differentiated or differentiate two things should be seen as the same, you run into problems. Wrong targeting will be the result of the prior and missing the real target will be the result of the later.

  108. Bryon – People kill people not a body of data.

  109. → CatDady on this blog is a 5th dan black-belt in Google-Fu. 🙂 He might be able to help find those quotes for you. Perhaps on Usenet or some other format.

  110. Tony DePhillips

    Hey Joe,
    Do you really think that TD has been assigned to the hole? Now that you mention it I haven’t heard or seen him for awhile…Maybe Dm will piss off his Mom and we will really see the fur fly!

  111. Is someone giving out free muffins?

    Moving 6billion yen in a day vs muffins

    Muffins win I’m afraid

  112. Ditto on that Tara.

  113. DFB aka Dfb99

    I think you’re buying the PR. If you go around the “world” and try to find where these Scientologists were, I think what you found would be a different story than what is promoted at the events.

    Also, I am a Scientologist and I have never killed anyone. I don’t know any Scientologists who have. I think I understand now what happened in the Lisa Mcpherson case, but to say Scientologists are parading the world killing people is a bit of a stretch don’t you think?

  114. LOL!!!! And ^^^^THIS^^^^^. AnonLover has been around so long s/he is practically OG by now.


  115. Joe,

    I changed that particular sentence several times before I settled on my final wording. It is, I’m sorry, my opinion.

    I once told Marty, early on, that I found the ethics aspects of Scientology to be abhorrent. He disagreed and I left it at that. It’s not my place in life, now, to even try to bring up specifics because I readily acknowledge that I may not understand. I’ve seen Marty’s take on some things that were markedly different from my take on them. Does Marty mean it, or is it just a way of prettifying (I made that word up) the subject? As an example, the oft used example of the cancellation of FAIR GAME — which was really just a cancellation of the TERM fair game. It’s one thing when Scientologists say, “that was cancelled!” and another thing altogether when one comes out and says, “it’s not right, it’s not how we do it, and it should not be used.” I am working from the assumption that Marty means it. That Mike means it. That most of the folks I’m seeing here *mean it* and aren’t just pulling some big charade.

    I read the red and green vols cover to cover… listened to 100’s of hours of lectures. Granted, I was a critic and I was looking for something juicy to post to prove my point at the time. But I’m not entirely ignorant of the content. If it’s any consolation at all, I find Christianity repugnant to science and reason. I find Water Witching repugnant to reason and science. I find Uri Geller to be repugnant to science and reason! Anyone who isn’t a HUGE fan of Pink Floyd is repugnant to Science and Reason. Hey, I subscribe to Skeptical Enquirer. 🙂 I’m just being right up front with where I sit.


  116. Sorry , first version went without prove reading!! Please do not post !

    Hello Randolf,
    some of us ( me and my wife for sure) are not her to change /save the religion called Scientology. not at all.
    we are here to practice in life the writings of LRH to improve our lives (and others lives if they want) in ways which we feel is an improvement.
    no different than using the content any other good book , or a principle your father might have shown you.
    have a look at what this looks like to me – surly not religious

  117. If the person posting as OT VIII represents the EP of OT VIII, I certainly have no interest in doing that level. I think this “handle” was chosen to push buttons, and I sincerely hope that the upper bridge is worth doing.

  118. It’s all about the muffins.

  119. I was looking at an archived version of the website.
    Those were pioneering days.
    Good job Ray!

  120. DFB,

    Lightin’ up fer christ sakes.

    Larry’s just making a play on the NRA slogan “Guns don’t kill people.

    “People kill people.”


  121. Remember the doctrine of the stable datum. An individual experiencing a confusion can gain relief by grabbing onto a stable datum to resolve the confusion. It doesn’t even need to be a true datum. Slogans can fall into that category if people don’t examine them, since they can become a substitute for thinking. I don’t think “Scientology Kills” necessarily falls into that category. It is really only meant to upset Scientologists. From the posts I’ve seen, it seems to do that very well.

    However, the dirty details should be examined. Why did OT VII Rex Fowler choose three bullets to the head as the preferred comm particle for his coworker? I would not classify that as simply putting off medical treatment. Did OSA dirty tricks drive Shawn Lonsdale to suicide? Actually, there are hundreds of deaths, and we don’t have space here to explore them. But then, we risk death everyday by all kinds of causes. Why worship death? It is a sham – a curtain of forgetfulness, instilled as a memory jam.

  122. Lady Lancelot

    There was a time when I would have thought that the idea that “Scientology Kills” was simply Black PR and lies spread by SPs. I even believed this about the Lisa McPherson tragedy. Lies spread by SPs. The Church I believed was innocent of any wrong doing.
    Oh what a difference a year makes. I have since learned of so many Scientologists who have died (committed suicide) and these suicides seem to be related to money, being regged to death so to speak. And then there is the recent incident of an OT VII, William Fowler, who shot his business partner. Again this was over money. An OT VII!!!
    And then there is the elephant in the room. The OTs who have gone mad. I know of 3. If I know of 3, there must be more.
    Does the Church bear any responsibility for these tragedies? I used to give the Church a pass. I do not any more. Something is very wrong!

  123. Marty, Would you explain how the following call to arms is not what it seems. Ones heart strings get pulled because of the poor fish and how terrible it all is and send your money because we can fix it in a few months if we have enough money and your free help. Has the Church ever made a difference on any of these disaster reg jobs? It’s confusing because the thought is, well if Scientology folks are helping a bad situation one can forgive a lot of stupidity and injustice. Write it off as a not educated Scientologist.


    Call to Arms for all members and supporters!!


    Dear Members and Supporters,

    The Gulf of Mexico’s waters have been turned into a toxic gumbo with the combination of chemical dispersants and the oil gusher. Despite statements to the contrary, Corexit, the chemical dispersant, is continuing to be deployed. The short and long-term risks to the public health can not be overstated, and not just around the Gulf – 30% of the world’s seafood comes from those waters. Severe respiratory problems, permanent eye damage, permanent lung damage, bleeding internally, permanent scarring are all symptoms of Corexit exposure. This situation is not acceptable and we need to pour the coals on The Earth Organization’s campaign to clean up this mess. We know exactly what needs to be done to get this situation handled. We are definitely making progress. But we need your help on this final push to make it happen.

    It is time for a call to arms!

    We have one, finite goal with this campaign: to clean the oil out of the Gulf in order to restore the long-term health of the marine life and to protect human health.
    The “by-product” of our work will be a reinvigorated Gulf economy where all industries that depend on clean water to thrive will have regained that vital resource.

    Air miles and funding are needed for travel expenses and educational materials to bring the very real solutions we offer to government officials and local citizens who are desperate for answers.

    With a concerted effort from some dedicated volunteers we could get this turned around in a matter of a couple of months. Even if you only have a few hours a week to give, we need your help.


    (818) 769-3410

  124. Joe Pendleton

    OK Ray, thanks. I now understand how you approached the subject.

  125. Very vague, pompous and arrogant generality.

  126. Marty,
    You certainly have pitched a very broad tent. You grant beingness.

  127. He’s truly not representative nor indicative of anything to do with OT 8, believe me.

  128. I did my HQS in 1972 in San Francisco. TRs 0-9 the hard way, all the basic books, Co-audited CCH’s to EP, 50 hour Op Pro By Dup co-audit, tons of clay demos and some Div 6 training. All for a hundred bucks, plus the cost of the books.

  129. Yes, the church mostly makes it’s own enemies through it’s own actions (and inactions). Becoming aware of this is a very positive step towards fixing those things, like enforced abortions, enforced disconnection, verbal and physical abuse, that create those enemies.

    I wish you all well in doing so. The world will truly be a better place which I know is what most Scientologists strive for, most of the time.

  130. I think it’s quite admirable, pan-determined and a true application of the Scientology philosophy for Marty to welcome critics, church members, non-Scientologists, Scientologists or anyone else who wishes to communicate on this blog. It’s the intent of one’s communication, no matter who it may be from, that determines it’s flavor and worth.

  131. I hear ya, Lawrence. You are paraphrasing one of the USA’s favorite questions – “Do guns kill poeople, or do people kill people”. The question is one of assigning the correct cause and responsibilty.

    Guns don’t jump off the rack by themselves and go on shooting sprees of their own volition, do they? Neither does “Scientology” as a body of thought kill people.

    Again, it’s a failure to differentiate between a body of ideas, and the person or group of people who use it for good or ill. Between the”philosophy”(ideas) and the “practice”(church) And that’s in addition to the just plain wrong targetting of who or what acted as cause.

  132. RJ, I suppose it is barely possible that he has some inkling that he has made a mistake or two, has seen the light, and is trying to make amends by releasing an actual course in real Scientology? And that he will actually let it go forward and let folks complete it?

    But these darn squirrel defector c-org apostates have so 3rd-partied my trust of Ole Miscy that I don’t even know what it would take to get me to believe it! 🙂

  133. I try to look at things this way, which I think makes a lot of sense.

    What if OT VIII were my Pre-OT in session let’s say and I had something to audit. If the reponse was like the one you commented on, would it be appropriate for me to say “Oh, OT VIII, shut up before I come over there and slaps you in yer’ big fat yap!”

    No it wouldn’t.

    If LRH had read what you had just read, is that what he would have contributed too?

  134. LL,

    I agree something is very wrong.

    It’s called gross out tech and it is currently rampant in the Church today.

  135. DFB aka Dfb99

    This is a button Anonymous and other protesters try to push. “Scientology Kills”, “Why are They Dead?”, etc.

    I understand what is going on here. The church, for some reason creates enemies. I guess thats DM’s dramatization.

    However, there is a concept I keep in mind.
    “Using a common enemy as the basis for an allegiance is problematic unless there are other substantial areas for common ground, otherwise absent the common enemy the friends might well be enemies themselves.


    I’ve never been the enemy of Scientology critics. I’m not really an enemy of the church. I just think DM needs to be removed and the Church fixed or replaced.

    I know there is a lot of dramatization and abberated behavior that can occur in a situation like this and generally I don’t believe a group of people coming together and trying to “get along” and “compromise” will come up with the right solutions.

  136. Thanks for the detail, Ray. And welcome, although I have never heard of you before, welcome. I’ve been off in my own little world for decades, but I like listening to/reading Hubbard. Most of the folks I met in the1970s were declared/just left on their own, by the early 1980s.

    For what it’s worth, my take on Ethics: Ethics is 100% a personal matter. Ethics is between the individual and his God, or his own conscience, or between him and his own rational self.

    Anything else is not Ethics. Ethics is basically “ethical philosophy”. Plato, Budddha, Locke, Hume, etc, there have been many ethical philosophers. Hubbard wrote/spoke on the subject, too. Ethical philosophy is a subject worth being acquainted with. But Ethics cannot be institutionalized. Once it’s institutionalized, it’s not Ethics anymore, it’s a moral code, just a set of rules. Ethics is what a person chooses to do from his own heart because he feels it is the best thing to do. It involves compassion and caring about others. And caring about himself,too.

    So that’s my story and I’m sticking to it! Perhaps I am lucky that I had few encounters with “org ethics” because I had little involvement with “orgs”. This allowed me to form my own take on it. As result, my “ethics’ are totally my own business, and if someone comes along and tries to evaluate and dictate my ethics for me, I tell them to fuck off. I may eventually even agree with their evaluation, or not, but it is for me to decide, no-one else.

    Hope this makes sense? Ethics is about the Heart of a person and nobody else’s business to dictate. It is something to tread very lightly around, because these kind of decisions are likely to be life-and-death affairs. A person needs his own space in which to make these kind of decisions himself. But I feel Hubbard presented some good ideas to “think with”, concerning Ethics.

    My background is in psychology. What strikes me about the scientology ethics debates, is how few people are aware of the clinical understanding, as opposed to the “administrative” (punitive,coercive) use of the SP/PTS concepts.

    It’s shame because the real value of those ideas is in the area of clinical practice and healing arts.

  137. Theo Sismanides

    OTDT, sorry for intervening but I think that what that SCN kills means is that the church has gone crazy. And it has. I wouldn’t want my church to be like that. Would you?

    So, it has killed my dreams and the dreams of others. Let’s differentiate between the church and us.

    For Christ’s sake, this is not the issue here. The issue is can we ever be friends with the world, any world. I don’t think this guy is a particular SP here.

    The fact that he comes and says what he says. Would any BIG WIG come to us and say this? They rule the world and they are the real SPs. Would DM do that? He is the real SP. He has killed many through “SCN”.

    So the title IMHO is OK. Anyone can change his mind and communicate. This is OK. This is Tolerance.

    What I didn’t like in that “church” is the Fanaticism and the inability to DIFFERENTIATE which is basically INSANITY.

  138. GandiGuy, you just triggered my anti-IAS missile battery. Let me explain, please!

    First off, let me say that what the Co$ says about “enemies” has some truth in it. There is in fact a very Suppressive organization that is dedicated to preventing as many people as possible from ever getting on the Scientology Bridge. I’ll go into how they do this next, but let me say the initials of this organization are the I.A.S.

    Yes. This organization is 100% Suppressive and has prevented more people from doing Scientology training and auditing, than all the other Suppressives in the world combined!

    How it works: It works by aggressively soliciting donations from Scientology public by appealing to the people’s desire to help, and building it all up into a”big crisis!” that “must be handled NOW!” They then make you feel guilty if you don’t donate, and they do not stop there.

    They not only ask for the money you have, they ask for the money you don’t have. They push you to borrow money from friends and relatives, and to max out your credit cards. If you have a house, they will try to talk you into getting a mortgage on it, or a second or even third mortgage on it.
    The IAS does not care how far you go into debt, or if you will ever be able to repay your debts. The IAS does not care if you become desparate and kill yourself because you have borrowed too much money and have no hope of paying it back.

    And worse than that – the IAS does not use much of the money you give them, to do any of the great things they say they will do. Theyspendalittle to take a few photo is of some volunteers to show you, and most of it goes into Church-related accounts that are for the private use of David Miscavige. He uses this money to harrass people like Marty, Mike, and all the other critics, old and new. Oh yes, and to live in luxury himself, while org staff starve.

    In the meantime, Scientology public can never payfor any Bridge services because the IAS has taken all the money they can ever earn. That’s one major reason Courserooms and Academies have almost no preclears and students in them.

    So that’s how the IAS has been stopping people from going up the Bridge since 1984, when the IAS was founded.

    So please, do not give the IAS any money! It is one of the most Suppressive groups in the world, and it’s”fundraising” campaigns are fraudulent,as well as being 100% against LRH written policy.

    Help spread the word!

  139. Theo Sismanides

    10 Grant? Got to be kidding? So to become a Hubbard Qualified Scientologist you have to have 10.000 dollars? Hahaha. Actually I am pissed, very pissed!!

  140. Alex Braverman

    Marty maintains a forum where even people with diametrically opposed viewpoints can rationally have a civil discussion (and learn from each other) and what does David Miscavige try to do to it?

    Destroy it.

    Brilliant, Davey, real fucking brilliant.

  141. Theo Sismanides

    Hey OldFox, thanks for this datum. Very valuable information as to how the old man looked at things and how he thought. This is differentiation and no identification. I am so happy this blog exists because it is not just a think tank for Scientology, it is a live organization now keeping Scientology working for the… world not for robots.

  142. Theo Sismanides

    Han Solo, thank you if I can thank you for such an example of another “Internal INtolerance” in “my church”. This is outrageous. What are we? Machines? This lady was a victim and Scientology does not make victims. The Church does though.

  143. Your humble servant


    I am disappointed you featured this fellow’s post on your blog. I can see no need for you to have done this.

  144. Tony DePhillips

    Hi Ray,
    Thanks for the communication.
    What I like about Marty’s blog is that all sorts of people can communicate things and increase the ARC. The main thing I got from your comm was that you are realizing that it is not the philosophy that you are fighting so much, as the idiocies and human rights violations that were and are present. You sound like a real smart guy and I for one welcome you here to communicate your views. To me, that is what Scientology is all about, communicating and increasing understanding for all concerned.


  145. Theo Sismanides

    Hey Valkov, thanks man! I just said it above, this blog now turns into an Organization that keeps Scientology working.

    A big Think Tank and a big eXperienced Qual with Staff (hahaha) who know their Stuff. And it becomes now a School of Thought.

    So thanks to Valkov, another one of the eXperienced ones who so simply and humanely put this little reminder-essay about Ethics here.

    In real life and in organizations we tend to forget what milestone called Ethics is all about and its clinical value.

  146. Elly Perkins and her husband were/are 2 very disturbed people. Their son Jeremy Perkins suffers from Schizophrenia and is currently an inmate in a state run mental hospital for criminally insane people.

    LRH Has said that certain types of conditions can prevent a person from making case gain. He never said that a person should not take their medication if lack of that medication might bring about their death. At least he never said this to my knowledge.

    Ellie Perkins and her deranged husband saw fit to DENY their son Jeremy his medication under the guise that as a diagnosed schizophrenic living under their roof eating their food if he did not do as they said he would have no one and no where to go. On that they they attempted for FORCE him to follow their alleged religious doctrines from Scientology that worsened his condition to the point that he murdered his mother Ellie just to get back on his medication to be “normal” again. Stories such as this are tragic.

    I have not seen, heard or read one report anywhere from anyone since Ellie’s death from the media or any professional circle stating that Ellie Perkins and her husband’s actions were correct, and that they were OK people.

    Ellie caused her own death, like a fool, in the name of tech, that does not even exist.

  147. Ray, well put – confirms what I have said higher up in this thread which wasn’t meant as a theetie-wheetie, “the world is good” comment – just what I felt when I read your post.

    Take a dose of the attitude Ray expresses here and sprinkle it over the various “parties” in the current Scientology scene and it’s capable of dissolving the conflicts – in a war, atrocities are committed on either side and each one involved eventually has to ‘fess up to what he did to truly end it.

    There’s a “Suppressed Person Rundown” whereby the PC runs Problems he has with the person he feels suppressed by – without this “SP” ever being talked to -until that “SP” contacts the PC to tell him”all is well” (lots of paraphrasing here to make it short – I put “SP” in quotes as it might be a real or imagined one, I’d say).

    Isn’t that a bit what we are doing here?
    And isn’t today’s post yet another indication that it “works”?

    Don’t believe I expect DM suddenly posting a big apology here but this blog has a “dissolving” quality to it that attacks the problem with communication and allows many to “run” their problems and ‘fess up (and many have done so in many ways on this blog).

    Ray, my hat’s off to you!

  148. Fellow Traveller

    You mention the toughness of the middle way — no kidding. You have to be able to tolerate both sides of some quite intractable and disparate quantites while both sides can not stand the other. Holding that position is one of the best demonstrations of granting of beingess and love of all and the ne plus ultra in this society for living: be willing to experience anything and do not case effects others cannot easily experience. Take a bow pretty much all posters and lurkers here. To say nothing of those holding the position(s) to make this forum even possible.

    Translations by request.

    Bruce Pratt

  149. Fellow Traveller

    typo: do not cause effects. not case effects. arghhh

  150. Joe, I totally agree with you.

  151. Well hello there splog/Alan,

    Good to hear from you and thanks for writing!

    Yes, I did rather stir up a hornet’s nest in South Africa back then, so it is unsurprising to hear that. I was vaguely aware of it, but it didn’t bother me as it was the buzzing of hornets trapped in a cage, and meanwhile, I was enjoying freedom in the real world. I do think I remember you, even though it was a long time ago. At that time, I hung out with Stan and Tsion (they were good guys), and Heide and Louis. Heide I understand went on to become Bayonetta Slaughters’ BF.

    Delighted to hear you are out of the cage and free too! 🙂

    If you want to chat some more, my e-mail is: lifeisbeautiful@hushmail.com

    To give you a bit of “R” from my side, very briefly: the whole thing started in early 1994 when I discovered a.r.s. I was already sitting on some pretty big disagreements which the org would not take seriously or address. I was amazed at how freely people were speaking their views on a.r.s., and found some of the criticisms echoed my own disagreements. I then started posting my critical thoughts, and god, was it liberating!

    I was at this stage as thick as a brick, naive, and completely unaware of the surveillence capacity of this organization I had gotten myself involved in. So it came as a shock when they called me in to discuss my posts. Anyhow, they handled me a bit, actually tried to address some of my issues for the first time, and then I felt it was all fine. But being me, I wanted to go back and handle the critics myself, which I did for a while. The whole sorry saga full of drama and HE&R is on the net, and it is very tl;dr.

    But THE thing that had me ending up opp-terming them to the point of agreeing to join and help FACTNet was this: people had been talking about women having abortions in the Sea Org overseas (USA). And that was one of my disagreements. Because Hubbard wrote volumes and volumes on why abortion was not a good practice (he was dead against it). Then, there was the Andre Tabayoyan affidavit on the Net. And that blew me away. Scientologists back home had been talking about it, and I could not quite believe it – now I find an affidavit confirming it??????????????

    I went in very nicely and said, “Look, seriously look, people, this is just wrong. We all know it has been happening, we have been talking about it, and now here is this heart-rending affidavit and Hubbard said no abortions, and you have to agree this is not OK!”.

    I fully expected all these nice people I had been friends with to examine the evidence I presented, and agree that it was not OK. I mean, you could not be a Scientologist and agree that was OK.

    The response I got was (to me) shocking. Suddenly these nice people turned into piranahs on steroids and attacked – I was out-ethics, I needed to get my crimes handled, etc etc etc. And I was like “yeah, ok, happy to get any crimes handled, but you need to address THIS too!”.

    And they would not, they went into full rage mode. And that was it for me. G’bye. Attack mode.

    That was not the end of the saga, much more, but I did not, and never wanted to attack Scientology, even though I ended up doing so. I just wanted the major outpoint (and the others) addressed. It was the not wanting to attack Scientology part that felled me much later – both the Co$ and most of the critics had Church of Scientology=Scientology (A=A) as an operating datum, so I took it on too, although it did not sit well for me.

    Now of course, much older and hopefully a bit less dense, I know why, and what and where and when. I have found it personally really healing to read the revelations occurring on this blog (Thank you, Marty), as it has helped me connect some dots, unravel some knots (pardon the pun), and even though I had moved away from all of this as from 2000, it is good to return and make the connections, and piece it all together.

  152. Yeah I remember reading that BS on ARS and I found it hypocritical in extreme when those same posters are promoting psychiatry as an alternative.

    Yeah right.


    Scientology’s not even in their league its like comparing Joe’s Corner Burger Stand to Micky D’s as far as mass murder is concerned.

    Ya know “Billions Served”.

    That said.

    The fact is that communication is occurring and I think communication is a good thing since it’s part of the ARC Triangle which leads to understanding which we know is the universal solvent.

    So that’s my take.

  153. I was recently declared. I’m uplifted by the fact that there are so many people banding together to, in a phrase, give the middle finger to the Church that be. Really, my only crime was disagreeing with how the Church operates. Sure, they found plenty of garbage in my PC folder which delineates me as a polemic and heretic to their credo, but the fact remains that I saw evil in the Church that outweighed their good. I believe we’re at a crossroads right now. Each side’s actions dictate who will be credible and the victor of this psychotic battle that none legitimately signed up for, but all were positioned front and center to fight.

  154. Funny, and well done for your ad…
    People coming out from the ‘Church of Fear and $cientology, are so tired of these bad news….
    we have great talents in the IND field as far as Graphic Designer and other… we should be here welcoming the new comers with beautiful happy theta ads…. and some good news… Real ones.

    Thank you for your article Ray!
    Look forward to see other creations of yours!! 😀

  155. Ray, you wrote:
    “…I will be here to protest you.”
    Would this change Martys mind?
    It only would boost his “hit points”.
    Def: hit point.
    In the media world all news are scanned and the amount of airings of politicians, seconds and mentionings are added. No differenciation about good or bad word. Just “times” and “seconds”.
    This is the reason why politicians are against something the rulers decide. If they would agree they would not be mentioned and had no chance to be interviewed.
    The more hit points the greater the market value of that person.

  156. Let me edit the above a little. The examples I gave could both be examples of identification. ( I wish wordpress allowed editing of comments, but oh well )

    Let me give some examples of what I’m referring to regarding identification that could happen or has happened in the real world.

    1. People identifying the church of scientology with the subject matter of Scientology. This causes wrong targeting of the subject of Scientology with the actions done by people in the church of scientology. Hence the “Scientology Kills” crap. By the way, Psychiatry does kill.

    2. An attempt to protect David Miscavige from attack by trying to identify David Miscavige with the subject of Scientology. An attempt to shield David Miscavige behind the truth and power contained in Scientology. Hence the Bull Shit: “David Miscavige is Scientology”.

  157. For the interest of Scientologists, here is an insight into the mind of one critic, namely me.

    What do I think about DM? A complete and utter scumbag. He is a lying, violent dictator, with consideration only for himself. We can only be thankful he is in charge of a church. If he was in charge of an entire country, you can only imagine what might occur. Think about Lord of The Rings. He has the ring, and won’t let it go. Could anyone else have handled the ring?

    What about other Scientologists? I reckon you all got into it because of a belief you were helping mankind. I have no problem with you, although a lot of pretty nasty things have been done to “SPs” over the years, a heck of a lot of lies have been told, and it was not all done by DM. Some of you know you have not acted as honourably as you would have liked, even if you joined up for that original purpose. There is a suspicion that some of you could do more to make amends. Until you woke up you allowed yourselves to be deceived in some pretty bad ways.

    What about Scientology the subject? People are allowed to choose their beliefs. I think if you knew more about the background of the subject and the man who created it you might be more concerned about it, and the tricky nuances that lie within. Many of you say you have had tremendous wins. I have to take this at face value.

    What about LRH? Was he mad, bad or …something else? Does it matter? For me it does, and every other critic on the planet has made up their mind on this one, based on the evidence available. I once counted the number of books published during the early seventies which described the Church as a cult, and LRH as something akin to DM. I forget the number, but it was something like 7, a similar number to the books published in the last few years by Scobee, Hawkins, Headley et al.

    My concern is that there has NEVER been a Church of Scientology that has not attracted widespread criticism and alarm. If you wonder why some critics are not exactly thrilled by the prospect of a new church rising from the ashes of the previous one you should consider that fact.

    Your task is therefore vast. I would rather people completely woke up and wised up to the subject, but if you do manage to replace the dreadful excuse-for-a-church we see before ourselves today with something which genuinely and unselfishly helps people, which really and truly reaches out to the poor and unloved, which puts happiness before profit, which does not try to control, which tells the truth and has no sinister threat attached, then good luck to you.

  158. Marty and Ray
    Muffins and tea at my place.

  159. Another thought on Gandhi. An icon of the Sixties and the Antiwar Movement, something sorely missing in the Iraq war madness of recent times. Where was Gandhi’s inspiration when we needed it? Did the media really forget the virtues Gandhi espoused? Thinking back to my youth, the Bay Area was a stimulating Disneyland of different philosophies: Red Guard in Chinatown, Black Panthers in Oakland, Communism, Physics and Free Speech in Berkeley, Vets Administration in Palo Alto doing LSD experiments on youth via Ken Kesey and Jerry Garcia – trying to inculcate a docile population. Gandhi was perhaps the most inspiring or at least the most holy. Co-Intel Pro and MK-Ultra were in the background and foreground.
    Was Gandhi perhaps a tool of our government who was trying to quell a rebellious and youthful population? Do you think that MI6 had anything to do with orchestrating Gandhi’s success? It is ironic that if you look at Tavistock Square, the original home of the notorious Tavistock Institute, its centerpiece is a statue of Gandhi….suggesting he was their “creation.” There are far deeper threads here that any of us could have imagined.
    True controversy and debate and exchange of ideas, without bigotry (the original theme of this blog thread) breed clarity of thought.

  160. To use a terrible cliche, “I may not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right say it.”

    Ray: I’m not sure if I can truly express my state of mind and response after reading your blog posting, but I can tell you that it does my heart good to read what you have written and I feel a sense of renewed purpose. I would like you to know that I would defend your right to your beliefs and your right to say what you believe to the death as well.

    My chief sorrow (and shame for what was once my Church) is that you and so many others (including me) have had to take such extreme measures to turn the tide. It is slowly turning. I can feel it as I live and breathe.

    Sadly, I think the Church of Scientology has often been a “testing” ground for the very concepts of religious freedom and freedom of speech in the world and it bears the accumulated scars and fear and contamination (group engrams) that resulted from its often poorly executed efforts to find and keep its place in the world. And that includes LRH. I believe did what he thought was right and necessary to keep a fledgling Church alive. It has become the very thing it fought, which is not surprising to me at all. In serving its purpose, it has become very ill, fundamentally off its own purpose and fallen into hands that have twisted it into a mockery of what it originally stood for and was meant to do.

    I believe that we have all learned. Hard and painful lessons but perhaps they had to be.

    And Marty. I have often wondered what I would do if I were the IG Ethics, confronted with the results of an investigation that led to seniors and bad hats who could not be dislodged or dealt with internally. It seemed to me that you have done the only thing possible – get into a safe location and speak up. You have done so and admirably and I thank you for wearing your hat, to the death.

    And Mike, I have often wondered what I would do if I were head of OSA and had to deal with breaches of integrity that twisted every word I said to a parody of truth. Again, find a safe place to speak up from and speak up. It seems to me that you too continue to wear your hat and based on your latest video, very admirably and I thank you for wearing your hat, to the death.

    I have tried to do my bit as well, to speak out, to live the principles that I believe are the core redeeming principles, creative of new life and love and joy. I had lost hope entirely. I felt utterly alone. But not now.

    Was it to the death? I think so. Like so many others who have been contributing to turning the tides on this, it has meant the death of any hope of continuing to do any auditing within the current Church of Scientology, the death of any relationships within the Church and the death of hope for everything it once stood for.

    And here I find that I am not dead at all, but renewed and others before me have taken steps to ensure that this death would never be anything more than an empty threat. I feel like a new dawn has finally arrived, the first light of the sun’s rays lighting the rim of the horizon.

    Thank you to all of you.

    And Ray, thank you for speaking out yesterday and today.

  161. martyrathbun09

    And processing orients one to his present evironment and raises one’s ability to confront what in actual fact exists before him.

  162. Martin Ottmann


    Apparently, this is what Joe told me, it was him, who, at least partially, posted advanced material on ARS. I also think that there were several individuals involved in the Scamizdat postings.

  163. LOL – “the dreaded ASHO!”

    Thank you for revealing yet another layer of deceit. I well remember encountering this viewpoint that lower staff and public were the enemy, an unstated, yet nearly palpable feeling in me that nearly stood my hair on end. I had no way of confirming it so its good to know that my perception wasn’t just my own feeling of dread.

  164. martyrathbun09

    What’s your beef?

  165. martyrathbun09

    Who issued it to whom?

  166. Wise words !

    Imagine such application had happened during the last 40 years … how would the world look like now ?

  167. Martin Ottmann

    Bob Peterson? Holy cow. Where have you been? Of course I remember Erwin Annau, Trade Net and his fake detergent.

    I had thought about you and your decision to join the Minton circus. I sometimes thought that I should have warned you about doing this.

    Of course I remember the visit of your house together with Reichelt: The “most friendly” dog in the world: Liebchen. Those were the days.

    Greetings to you,


  168. Valkov – I concur.

    A few blog posts back, I wrote a post pointing out that most of the activities of the Church that draw fire were under the original purview of the Guardian’s Office. The G.O. was originally set up up to address external elements that distracted the main purpose of the Church, which was solely and only to deliver auditor training and auditing. The IAS was originally the Safe Environment Fund, a temporary measure taken by the Guardian’s Office to raise funds to handle the IRS problems of the Church. Then the Guardian’s Office was disbanded. I speculated that it was not disbanded at all but that it lived on with all its crazy practices.

    Marty responded with words to the effect that the Guardian’s Office has literally taken over the Church of Scientology, it is now all one big Guardian’s Office, including enforcing the IAS, secret investigations, vicious prosecution, tyrannical ethics. I have been thinking about what Marty said in response to my post and I think that’s exactly what happened, and the consequences have been disastrous.

  169. I can comment on how this isn’t what it seems.

    I did support the Earth Organization. Most of the people involved in this honestly believe they are doing something good. Yes, a motivating force is to provide positive PR for the church, and that might even be the main corruption of its potential. It is a field group using Scientologists to get good PR for the COS, the COS gives it no money, IAS has don’t little to nothing or worse for them.

    Reading the above letter, you can only believe that they are the experts, but they have no experts, they have no experience. Their solution to the above uses microbes (bugs). Someone knows someone who knows something about someone or somethingthat knows about bugs. Now they are experts. No one is a microbiologist, no one has cleaned up oil spills, no one is a marine biologist, but because they are Scientologists who are experts on everything they touch and life itself, they are THE experts with THE solutions.

    Earth Organization did good work on wild life preservation in Africa, bt one of the founders was a real expert on that. In fact, he did most of the work before the Earth Organization was aro0und, and someone else came to him and suggested it be set up, using his initial good works as an accelerant to do this.

    When Katrina happened, they were there providing “THE” solution to Kartina and mold, again bugs. They had no experts or experiences. They were pretty much kicked out of Lousiana together with the bug company because of false claims, broken promises, hyperbole, etc. Ask them for peer reviewed papers on their work, ask them for any government acknowlegement or letters of recognition, they don’t exist.

    There are VERY few Scientologists or ex scientologists involved in the disaster response business and oil spill clean up business. I only know one, who doesn’t want much to do with the Scientology, he is not an independant, but has been disconnected from all his church friends because of being face book friends with Marty, and is/has been under a non enterbulation order from the church for more than 10 years.

    This guy has built from nothing, coming out of the Sea Org, a high school drop out, over 12 years, a multi million dollar coompany that has cleaned up and recycdled something like 50,000,000 gallons of oily waste and oil spill cleanup waste, and has worked on a dozen spills, including the BP spill,Eeagle Otome, etc. I asked him to get involved with the Earth Organization, he declined, He told me that he didn’t know how little he knew until he had to produce real results in the real world outide of the self debilitating self certain culture of life expertise in the church, and didn’t want to go back. It had taken him years to break himself of believing his own bullshit.

    The arrogance of the scientology culture permeates the Earth Organization, which is a shame. People of good will support it, but they don’t have expertise or organizational skill to be effective. I think their arrogance is actually dangerous. People want to believe, but because this is such specialized work have to rely upon the word of others. A false expert is a dangerous thing if they get followers.

  170. The Earth Organization was started by a public Scientologist named Lawrence Anthony, who runs a game preserve in South Africa. As soon as it started getting a high profile it was taken over by the church, and is now a division of OSA.

    There is now no accountability, or visibility of their activities other than press releases. Consequently, there is no guarantee that your donations will be spent on a specific problem like the Gulf oil spill, or on any ‘problem’ at all. And you will notice that they make the grandiose claims that they can “clean up the mess” and reinvigorate the Gulf economy, but don’t give even a clue as to how they will accomplish this.

    It looks to me like just another attempt by the church to use disaster to squeeze money out of you. A perfect fit for the definition of ‘Merchants of Chaos’.

  171. DFB aka Dfb99

    “The fact is that communication is occurring and I think communication is a good thing since it’s part of the ARC Triangle which leads to understanding which we know is the universal solvent.

    Yes, totally. I feel free now.
    I think there was so much mystery about the Church of Scientology before that it made me powerless to complete a doubt formula. I was a slave because there was missing data and lies.

    Now that I am getting the bigger picture I can see things for what they are and actually make “grown-up” decisions about it instead of being in begrudging spiritual servitude because I don’t want to “lose my eternity”.

  172. DFB aka Dfb99

    And also, it takes the charge off the situation. It defuses the enemy thing. I guess it would as-is the thing. I guess thats what Marty is doing here- like an auditor.

    Ok, it took me a day to get it, but I got there.

  173. Lawrence Anthony was also involved in WISE and U-Man in South Africa, and was the main protagonist to infiltrate and influence the Inkatha Freedom Party in South Africa in 1994. An archived copy of an article is here: http://www.spaink.net/cos/rnewman/media/weekly-mail-11.4.94.html but the source link is no longer there.

  174. Hi Mason

    Congratulations on achieving your latest honor status in Scientology, the suppressive declare. It is truly a high honor. You are now part of a group that seeks to live with the truth. Feel free to speak your mind.

  175. You’re preaching to the choir. My comment was not directed at the $cientology Kills posting, but to Lawrence’s comment:

    “Scientologists, parade the world pretending to be experts in all kinds of fields that they are actually not even trained in.”

    It’s a vague, arrogant generality.

  176. “It went basically like this… Joe Neal (O’Neal, I guess) confronted me during the protest and pointed to one of our fellow picketers (who had dressed up as the alien “Xenu”) and made the statement, “That is Bigotry”.

    I disagree. I see CoS’ failure to disclose the OT materials up front to prospective new Scientologists as a central problem. Reading the materials will not kill you or all critics would be dead. Exorcism, telepathy, reincarnation, spiritual bondage, and the notion of other planets and universes are parts ancient spiritual knowledge. If a Scientologist wants to use LRH’s road map, why then have at it. My support of the Independents is well known. Certain of my fellow OCMB’ers, and I respect them and their right of free speech, have accused me of drinking the Kool-Aid for supporting the Indies. I do not see it that way. I think the Indies are doing something fundamental, necessary, and brave — and at a great personal cost to themselves that cannot be measured in money.

    My guru was named Master Da Free John. Before he experienced “Ego Death” great enlightenment, and became an acclaimed Spiritual Master, he was named Franklin Jones and he did Scn through to OT VII.

    After his enlightenment, Da Free John wrote about Scn and OT in the first edition of one his earliest books. This chapter relates his experiences in Scientology. This chapter was deleted in subsequent editions. No one is really sure why it was deleted. IMO, The Church of Scientology persuaded Da Free John to delete this extremely interesting and very benign chapter.

    To the best of my knowledge, this chapter is the only description of Scientology written by a Spiritual Master of Da’s ranking who actually did Scientology up through the OT Levels. This alone makes it worth reading. Out of respect for OT’s, Master Da omits any description of the Upper Level materials; he rather alludes only to the political nature of the OT levels. I share it here because it contributes a pov that is worth reading. I posted the essay on OCMB: http://ocmb.xenu.net/ocmb/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=32948


  177. This is not an auditing session.

  178. Wow, almost unimaginable.

  179. I’ve personally experienced the IAS openly demeaning and denigrating Flag auditing by saying that it wears off, does not increase responsibility and by giving money to the IAS instead, one will experience greater case gain through an increase in responsibility.

  180. Ghandiguy, who is this Call to Arms from?

    “We have one, finite goal with this campaign: to clean the oil out of the Gulf in order to restore the long-term health of the marine life and to protect human health.”

    I wonder if they have a plan on how exactly their collection of funds will achieve their goal of “to clean the oil out of the Gulf”? It’s a nice idea, but ideas are a dime a dozen, which is exactly what I would pay them.

  181. Now I remember why the sticky on my monitor says:
    “No MR
    No WWP
    No sugar”
    I broke my streak for this?
    Pint of Haagen-Daz tonight!

  182. Old Fox,
    Did you personally see the telex from LRH on this?

  183. Ha ha ha. Maybe he really meant ‘Pumpkin pie with whipped cream on top’. I’ll give him the benefit of the doubt.

  184. Haagen-Daz, now there is a marketing succes based on playing on the subconcious mind of the consumer.
    “The name does not derive from any of the North Germanic languages; it is simply two made-up words meant to look Scandinavian to American eyes ”

  185. After constantly hitting Religion Freedom Watch pages I found this.


  186. Yes – time-place-form-event…..the obvious generality is very telling.

  187. And BGH! That does it. I am switching to Ben & Jerry’s…

    And Eckankar

  188. Reply to;
    OTDT | October 22, 2010 at 4:29 pm
    Old Fox,
    Did you personally see the telex from LRH on this?
    Answer:Yes I read it over several times since my personal conviction had been shattered and then it became a matter of duty to the persons who were afflicted with cancer and seeking any way to alleviate their situation .

  189. Hmmmm…at last…something I really like about

    Bravo. That was a good, successful era.
    Scientology for the common man, Scientology
    while it was closest to its stated purposes and

    A lotta gains, a lotta fun.

    While I’m in a temporarily sane mood, I should
    also mention that the Chiros and Docs thing in
    the USA (80s) was an unusual solution to the
    decimation of the good old, FOLKSY, “hang
    around the friendly Mission and bring your pals
    in” era.

    Trying to “regiment” the Missions? Miscavige
    and so-called “organized Scientology” has never

    By contrast, ARC sells-sells-sells.

    Lies and Out-R cause shrink-shrink-shrink.

    I have no fear of Miscavige hearing this, as he is
    in the same position as the comedian Steve
    Martin in that movie where he is being raised as
    a “poor black child”.

    He just ain’t got “rhythm”.

  190. Yes, Martin I am still among the living and if you ever get to Florida look me up, I am living in Ft. Lauderdale. Martin Ottmann was one of the first of many former SO members that I have met over the years. I have some happy memories of the projects that we worked on together.
    Working for Bob Minton was certainly one of the more interesting things that I have ever done but I joined him with open eyes so I have no reason to complain now. The LMT offered me another venue to get my blade in against Scientology and in that respect I have never regretted it. I certainly didn’t make many lasting friends there, in fact I was rather unpopular. Nor was I all that close to Minton, certainly not as close as the others. Yet, for all of that I find myself still saddened at his passing.
    However this is not the place to fight old battles, few would find it interesting. As a spectator seeing what independent Scientologists can accomplish I find Marty’s site very interesting. Once in a while I put my oar in but mostly I am content with reading what others have written. Peace unto Martin Ottmann. -Bob Peterson.

  191. Actually when the Ol’man established the GO in ’66 its purpose was as stated in HCOPL 1 March 1966 in caps:


    The PL goes on further to state that:

    “The Guardian has five actions:




    Long Range Promotion


    Most of what you read about the GO on the internet are those activities involving Branch 1 Information and Intel activities which involved covert action.
    (an activity that Jane Kember fixated on when she became the Guardian)

    However the GO also controlled the vast Franchise, DCG and Field Auditor Networks.

    The networks that were virtually destroyed when RTC assumed control of Scientology.

    Also with a few exceptions most espionage and counter espionage activities were directed towards Governmental targets such as the FBI, CIA, NSA, etc who were involved in illegal domestic intel activities such as COINTELPRO, MH/CHAOS and Shamrock.

    (Now they’re directed to some schmuck with an I/P address, a website and an attitude or someone trying to expose Miscavige as the phony pretender he is)

    Activities that Operation Snow White was seeking to expose through its multi-billion dollar lawsuit against the above agencies mentioned and other IC members involved in Military Intel.

    A lawsuit that was shut down for “reasons of National Security” under the states secrets clause which eventually led to Meisner and Wolfe’s efforts to steal the information instead which eventually led to their arrest and dragged the rest of the executives of the GO into charges of Conspiracy.

    The Safe Environment Fund or SEF was actually a legal defense fund that was eventually shut down by the Ol’man himself according to the rumor.

    Probably because the activity was off-policy and the Church already had the funds adequate to handle any legal defense under its Building Fund Account which was directly controlled by the Assistant Guardian for Finance.

    Anyway, probably to a few greedy SPs it probably seemed like a good idea at the time, especially since SEF was quite “successful” so with the Ol’man off the lines and the Church of Scientology now in the hands of “dedicated SO members” who didn’t have to worry about an autonomous GO stepping in to wreck the party they set up the Ponzi Membership program known as the IAS.

    You’ll note when I write “probably” it is purely speculation on my part but that’s the way I see it.

    Anyway it was by his Satanic Majesty’s request to eliminate the GO without even doing a postmortem or full Board of Investigation on what happened and despite policy forbidding the closure of a Network established by policy and it was in his interest to make the GO appear as evil as sin while at the same time presenting himself as the savior of Scientology.

    A job he has done splendidly I might add. Since very few Scientologists acknowledge the fact that it was the GO, that fine line of dedicated Scientologists who under the leadership of Mary Sue prevented the organization from being destroyed by the Government behemoth for many years when the attacks were coming in hot and heavy from various vested interests who viewed Scientology as a threat.

    Not only that but he’s also managed to achieve their goal of the destruction of Scientology under his incompetent dictatorship and has managed to turn what was once the GO NKA as OSA into his own personal SS.

    Therefore I wouldn’t accept Miscavige’s black propaganda about the GO at face value.

  192. It’s very cool that you did that research, Ray.

  193. I thought this similar email might be of interest (from http://forums.whyweprotest.net/123-leaks-legal/scientology-will-solve-gulf-oil-spill-67742/)


    From: Bruce@brucewiseman.net
    To: Bruce@brucewiseman.net
    Date: Sun, 6 Jun 2010 15:01:02 -0700
    Subject: Oil Spill Solution-From Barbara Wiseman, Int’l. Pres. The Earth Org
    Nepotism at a time of crisis can be a wondrous thing. Please read and act.

    Subject: ALL- IMPORTANT: Re: Oil Spill Solution-From Barbara Wiseman, Int’l. Pres. Earth Org

    I emailed Barbara Wiseman, International President of The Earth Organization, about a non-toxic solution to the oil spill and if there was anything she could do to get the data to the right people for use. I was relieved to get the following answer. (You can help to expedite this solution and relieve the catastrophe by spreading the word to others). Thanks, Anne

    Dear Anne,

    Thanks so much for contacting me with this info. We are already all over it. We took micro organism technology into the Gulf as a part of the Hurricane Katrina cleanup and we are gearing up to go back in immediately to begin bioremediation with micro organism technology on the oil spill.

    We are in direct communication with key people on this and are getting ourselves in a position to be able to coordinate clean up efforts to get this scene handled.

    We need your help. We need funds to get staff on the ground, a temporary site headquarters set up and the micro organism technology in place. Please help us to raise the necessary funds by getting the word out far and wide on your lines to people who would be willing to donate to this effort.

    The simple fact is that The Earth Organization, truly, has the solution that is the greatest good and which will not end up being the next problem that has to be solved. It is totally safe, extremely effective, relatively inexpensive, and can be applied broadly.

    For those who wish to support these efforts, please ask them to go to our website at http://www.earthorganization.com and donate whatever they can.

    Thanks very much for your help, interest and support.

    Very Best,


    Barbara Wiseman
    International President

    818 769-3410


    In a message dated 6/5/2010 10:15:00 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time:

    Dear Barbara,

    I am writing you as I don’t know who else to contact who might be able
    to get this data to the right people so that they will hopefully use
    it. I did email Senator Boxer urging her to do everything possible to
    get the data to the right people. but am not sure she will act.

    The video (below) has data and contacts on this proven non toxic
    method of getting rid of the oil on the water and in the marshes.
    Oil-eating microbes worked on oil leaks in the Texas Gulf, both water
    and in marsh grasses with no ill effect on the species living there.
    The chemicals being used by BP to disburse the oil is toxic and unsafe
    and adds to the destruction of that environment and species. I am
    hoping that you may be able to use your influence to get this on the
    correct lines so it will be used.

    Very best,
    Anne Fewell, Los Angeles
    Go to:
    LiveLeak.com – Redefining the Media

  194. Great Post. Made me laugh when I realized there’s something we all (or most) actually agree on: The organization known as CoS, at this very moment, is a cult, and cults are destructive.

    All the conflicts and upsets are about disagreement on When exactly it started to be one! That seems to be the basic disagreement. Perhaps we all share what’s important from here. Whatever beliefs are chosen/tossed aside, it might be helpful to measure any against one of the many “checklists” out there on warning signs, symptoms of a cult.

    And it is, in fact, the major fear of critics; that newer versions will simply morph into a newer, destructive cult. Considering all that has transpired, personally I think that’s a rational fear, not a “misemotion“. Learning the signs of a cult is fairly simple, and doesn’t cost a thing. Here’s just one such guideline, although there are many others.


  195. Ray, thanks for communicating. Once again, is this not a crystal example that the Scientology Corporation creates adversaries? Ray, thanks for being able to tolerate real Scientology:)

  196. Valkov:

    AND…just about the only people who disagree with that are “the Scientologists”.

  197. “This lady was a victim and Scientology does not make victims. The Church does though.”

    A very spot-on summary of this whole blog ( and ten or more other websites as well, e.g. scientology-cult.com ).

  198. As always, very well said Maria!

    I believe it expresses what is most of our hearts.

  199. I can’t disagree at all with your sentiments as expressed in this comment.

    It seems we have been having to do a lot of “launching” lately, and in the foreseeable future. There is quite a bit of A=A on “Church” = “Scientology” floating around, and we can’t just let that go.

  200. This is true, this is a place for exchange of viewpoints.

    And yet, and yet, the Auditor’s Code does call me towards a higher standard of civilized communication. Just don’t expect me to “have no case in or out of session”! Or to be “muzzled” all the time!

    That’s why most of us don’t really make them eat poop in reality! I’m not sure what “OT VIII” would do, though, if he were able to seize power!

  201. @YHS: guess you’d better shorten that to “I can’ see”.

    Michael A. Hobson

  202. Dr Jekyll, I presume? Pleased to make your acquaintance!

    1972 did indeed mark a good era. Perhaps Scientology’s best. It was like Spring time with budding shoots of Scientology practitioners arising everywhere in my area. (Michigan)

    And I was there a few years later when some Missionaires came to my town and took the Mission Holder’s place away from her. She wasn’t really a “businesswoman”, but she had a nice safe space to be in, where I got some good services in a friendly laid-back environment, including many hours of OpProByDup. She was exactly FOLKSY. She just wasn’t the militantly expansion-minded type they wanted with the hustling Amway distributor mindset, so it was out with her. At least that’s how it looked to me. I did not know of the money motive, back then.

    I thought of the Sea Org as existing to help, not dominate and micro-manage. Help the Orgs and indirectly the Missions, or Franchises as I thought of them then. Oh well. I’m sure at times SO did help and fired successful missions of it’s own, but the overall result has been….?

    And yes, many Scienos in my area did promote Chiros to some extent, even before the crushing of the Mission network. I think it was party in reaction to a negative perception of “organized medicine”‘s expensive, invasive, assembly-line approach. I tried chiro, but eventually concluded there were other, better, non-medical approaches, at least to what I wanted handled.

    Later, as you say, an unusual solution, plus I suspect promotion of chiropractic was used by the Church in political alliance against the medical profession. Scientologists actually helped Chiropractors bring suit against the AMA in Federal court by gathering a lot of DOX. The AMA lost the suit. Basically it was about a decade-long suppression of chiros by medical doctors in the USA.

    The chiros won, and the AMA was found guilty of “”anti-competitive practices”, among other charges I believe.

  203. Theo, we don’t really know how much the “new” “old” HQS course will cost.
    Joe was speculating: “But he’s(DM) probably charging 10 grand for it, so it, of course, will simply be another step on his way to the gallows.”

  204. Thanks Theo! It is always good to get some validation like you gave me there!

    It makes me sad sometimes, that Ethics is misunderstood and used and abused the way it is.

    I am trying to say to Ray, that according to what I believe is true Ethics, he made the most Ethical decisions he could make, based on the information and understanding he had. In fact, he took action based on the outrage of his sense of Ethics, by what he perceived. Taking action is the right thing to do.
    I see that as Ethical in the true Scientology sense.
    As LRH said, “The wrong thing to do is nothing.”
    Ray acted on his own Code of Honor.

  205. Oh yes – this is soooo truth that it hurts.
    Help becomes betrayal and only few (as with all other “helping” practices) can see it .
    Well, we have our work cut out to spread the word – don’t we?


  206. Exactly! Exactly! IAS reps overtly and blatantly tell folks that donating to the IAS is senior to auditing and training! This is central to their pitch, and has been from the very beginning in the 1980s.

    They essentially say “You are as OT as you donate to the IAS. You don’t need to do anything else. Nothing else really matters. You’ll get real case gain by donating.”

    And IF they had actually used most of the money they collected in the right ways, there could be some truth to that idea. If the money had been used to safepoint Scientology, expand dissemination worldwide and prepare to deliver, make sure staff got trained and Cleared, etc etc etc, oh, how much COULD HAVE BEEN DONE!

    Instead, NOTHING! It’s a complete SCAM!

    These IAS types are the ones who need to be made to eat poop for a loooooooooong time. All the poop they can eat, available a la carte 24/7. If they refused to eat, tube feed’em.

    It is absolutely the most Suppresive group on the planet, in my book.
    Totally about getting your money and keeping you from ever getting any auditing or training. And cleverly undermining the orgs at the same time, by cross ordering staff off their posts to get their “Events” shows on the road, thus sucking up Org resources and destroying Org income by impoverishing Org public. The Devil himself couldn’t devise a better plan. Hmmmmm. “His satanic majesty”, eh, RJ? I think it’s a real possibility.

    I have dreamed of audio/video recording an IAS World Tour “fundraising” session.

    It could be done with available micro recording technology – buttonhole cameras and audio recorders…..

    Do you suppose that would be a hit on Youtube?

  207. Anyone wanting to read the Snow White story might find the most authoritative telling in the court judgment of the appellate court. You might need to skip the legalese sections, but the story is set out in great detail after that.


  208. Dave Adams, Joe, OTVIII, atcause, and the others whom I offended — and any of the other participants here who would like to discuss these things with me. Please feel free to email me. I promise you respect, honesty, and my best effort at explaining my stand.

    Best email to reach me at is ray.randolph(at)gmail.com

    I’m also going to bow out of this discussion by sharing a quote that I sent to Marty once. I’m badly paraphrasing, so bear with me.

    The idea that I’m about to mangle comes from Albert Camus, in his book “The Rebel.”

    A rebel is a man who says no. Or up to this point yes, beyond this, no. The act of rebellion itself is about risk. Risk of failure, risk even of death. But it’s mandated by the initial sense of outrage reached when that man finally says, “no”. One can be a slave and be content. But a contented slave is still not free. Therefore true freedom always requires rebellion.

    Helena, if you’re reading this and you wanna make good on the muffins, you may certainly feel free to email as well.

  209. Either you’re a bot or a troll since there is no effort to engage in any meaningful dialogue on the subject.

    Anyway probably a more complete story actually written in english instead of legalese would be as follows:


    Which covers three decades of harassment prior to Guardian’s Office Order 1361 was put into play.

    Further information on the Government’s various harassment programs can also be found in the following books:



  210. Ray wrote: “I’m not sure my mind ever changed.”

    Funny, that’s similar to what we sometimes hear from someone after getting some auditing: “Oh I haven’t changed … I’m just more me.” 🙂

  211. Ray,

    One day you walk by a bakery and go in to get a muffin but instead of buying your favorite poppyseed you’re suddenly overcome with the urge to have blueberry.

    Who chose the blueberry?

    The answer to that is why everyone on this planet needs Scientology to survive.

  212. After seeing the name “Unity Mitford” I feel compelled to be a bit nosey here and ask if this is a nom de plume based on the woman who was the sister-in-law of Sir Oswald Mosley? Or is this something entirely different? Just curious. -Bob Peterson.

  213. Swift, very interesting link about Da Free John.

    His account indicates he received “quickie grades”, as he said he paid for his auditing, started a couple of days later, and 6 days later was a Grade IV Release.

    Interesting to me also is that he makes no mention of doing any training. No mention of TRs, CCHs, or any Objectives at all.
    It’s quite telling to me, that he admits he was unable to audit because he was unable to simply be there and grant beingness to the person in front of him, instead of overwhelming them with the forcsof the “Shakti” power.

    This indicates to me he never passed “GO”, never even achieved the first steps of getting his OT-TRO and TRO in.

    My conclusion is that he did not actually do the Bridge. Perhaps he was “quickied” all the way up. From his accounts of his previous yoga training, it sounds like he had a lot of personal influence and some OT-like abilities, and possibly could FN when he wanted to. He may have been passed on up the line because he was powerful.

    And there was “quickie-ing”being done in the 1960s and early 1970s also. I recall meeting a fellow in 1971 I believe, who had received “quickie grades”.
    In his case, he was audited on one process of each level, grade O through Grade IV toEP, and that was it – he was certified as a Grade IV Release. That was done in just a few days, as in Da’s case. None of it “took”on Da, because the very basic steps.

    Oh, and this was also the time period when someone somehow got OT-TRO removed from the HAS and HQS courses, apparently because “OT-TRO? That must be for OTs, howed it get put in to the HAS and HQS courses? We gotta remove it from those!” And it was dropped out for quite a while.
    So Da may not have even had the opportunity to do OT-TRO in the beginning.

    There are many practices in which”the knowledge”or “the enlightenment” is transmitted directly from teacher to pupil. Any original OT VI could do this kind of thing, create effects in another’s universe, including a “gnostic”experience. This can result in the creation of that”enlightened”valence. But the person is of course actually”out of valence”, as he is not really being himself. Been there, done that.

    That’s another thing – the original OT levels had lots of drills having to do with operating while exterior, yet Da does not mention that at all. He speaks only of “mental”exercises. Whatever he was doing, it was not the original drills pre-OTs did on OT I and OTII back then, which were done exterior in real time.

  214. This is a most wonderful blog as former pro and con proof that group auditing is very effective. Discovering truth and shining the light to both sides of a group engram indicates the driving third parties, dissipates shared mass, dissolves former hate and makes for a lot of understanding. Let’s splurge on it.

    At the high time of Corporate Scientology bleeding its parishioners dry by large anti psych drives and crush regging, Big Pharma’s stats doubled and half of the American population got drugged with a host of side effects and illnesses. Because insurance companies didn’t pay medical, Wall Street could forfeit a million houses a year and siphon currency from its citizen into trusts to steal even more through interest.

    America was brought to the brink of bankruptcy by extracting currency and third partying its citizen; poverty, unemployment and fear became its master. This resulted in the greatest recession since the thirties; the purpose was a world wide economic meltdown wherein powerbrokers (The Fed) would step in with huge loans to virtually take over world domination.
    However, Europe didn’t like this scenario, blamed Bush and made him the worst American President ever in foreign eyes.

    The powerbrokers cut their losses and pushed Obama in the saddle to restore foreign relations by ending the corporate plundering. Date coincident with the recovery of the economy, Marty and Mike secured their funding for taking down Corporate Scientology (they’re by far the best investment to do so).

    Davey, it looks like the powerbrokers dished you after all that you’ve done for them. You taught them the very best of your fear, slander, cross order, mind control and third party techniques. You almost put them in a position of world domination and wiped out the only technique that could expose it. But now the treasonous cowards are going after the insurance, pharma and financial corporations that did so well on those techniques; who ya think is their next target?

  215. “You almost put them in a position of world domination and wiped out the only technique that could expose it.”
    -DM never had that kind of influence.
    “and wiped out the only technique that could expose it.”
    Sure you are exaggerating here a bit.
    “However, Europe didn’t like this scenario, blamed Bush and made him the worst American President ever in foreign eyes.”
    Yes I agree on this one.
    “The powerbrokers cut their losses and pushed Obama in the saddle to restore foreign relations by ending the corporate plundering.”
    The people choe and you do realize Marty actively helped in the Obama campaign don’t you ?

    “greed is good”
    -Gordon Gekko

    In the end it all comes down to GREED.

  216. LOL we in Europe think part of the obesitas in america is due too BGH. BGH is banned from entering the EU.

  217. Dont you go calling this lady any names who put Mike and Christie up when he was in Australia mr. “know it better than you”

    I think you owe the Lady an apology.

  218. Davey himself didn’t have much influence but he piloted the techniques for over 10 years before they went mainstream. Just about any government organisation went after LRH because auditing exposed the secret mind control and LSD experiments of the 50’s and 60’s which were ended by Congressional Hearings in the early 70’s. America is run by greedy banks, not by the people; both sides toe the bank line while foisting off democracy to the public. I didn’t know that Marty helped Obama but if so, VWD! I hope that the world does not yet fully trust America so the powerbrokers have a little more use for Obama.

  219. 1989 should be 1998, I think.

  220. Ray,
    I’m not sure my comments are allowed here, but I concur with what you posted far above. I have never called for the destruction of anything but the barbaric practices I have seen and been subject to as a result of not buying the group thingie. If Marty is truly interested in reformation, he has joined a group of dedicated reformers who have worked on exactly that since the early 80s: Gerry Armstrong, Brent Coryden, Bill Franks, Alan Walter, and on.

    To me reform requires exposing the dirty deeds done in the name of the “Greater Good.” Having been the subject of a relentless barrage these sliemy deeds for many years, I have particular interest in peeking behind that filthy curtain.

    But perhaps I am not worthy of the true believer’s consideration, having been so “suppressive,” “ARC breaky,” and all.

    In any case it’s good to see that you have been welcomed, old friend. And good luck to anyone trying to reform the barbaric practices we all know have been done in the name of this religion.

    Be well,
    Dennis Erlich

  221. RJ — Heather is no bot, troll or spectator, I promise you that! She has probably done more to expose the abuses in Australia, and help those who have suffered as a result, than any other person I know. (But only so she doesnt get the same hassles as others have, and to make the record clear — she did not put us up when we were in Australia, though we very much enjoyed the time we spent with her). Mike

  222. I salute you Good Sir. Many have talked about you. Some people have said you cut a deal. So it’s good to have your voice added here.

  223. ‘America is run by greedy banks, not by the people”

    Gospel, But to get some nuance the banks are alsoo run by people, people who were educated to be greedy.

    What’s next after Obama ? Jeb Bush ?

  224. http://www.sis.gov.uk/output/sis-home-welcome.html

    Why would MI6 have wanted Ghandi to succeed ? Loosing India and all. (Ghandi died in 1948 by the way)

  225. Well thanks for your ringing endorsement Mike.

    I personally had no idea who Heather is.

    However I’ve spent years researching Governmental abuse of power and the fact is very evident to me as it was to Garrison, MacKenzie and Wise (who along with Ross wrote ‘The Invisible Government’) that it does definitely exist and that it was part of the reason for the audacious op carried out under USGO Order 1361 incorrectly labeled as ‘Snow White’ (which was actually known as the ‘Snow White Program’ that consisted of various projects world wide each having their own operational targets) which was ordered by Mike Meisner who later “defected” (the reason for the quotes is that in my personal opinion he may have been a plant or a mole or an agent provocateur to begin with) and turned states evidence.

    Also I object to the “official story” about the events surrounding ‘Snow White’ that are accepted as the gospel truth by many critics and that also aligns with Miscavige’s own agitprop about the GO.

    Because personally I think we would have been much better off and wouldn’t even be discussing this matter out here in the blogosphere if Mary Sue had held her position as Controller and had Miscavige commeved for mutiny.

    There have I made my position on the matter clear enough?

    And no CD I am not going to apologize for stating my opinion.

    If Heather G. wanted to engage into a debate on the matter she could have countered my response in kind instead of dragging out the hoary old dox giving the Government’s side that anyone who has researched the matter has seen at least a million times.

    Ones that omit the Government’s efforts through the FDA , the FBI, CIA, the NSA, the IRS, the State Department along with a plethora of international agencies including the bunch of inveterate Nazis known as INTERPOL (funny how Miscavige had INTERPOL spread the word about his reconstituted Fascist version of Scientology) at the behest of the AMA, NIMH, WFMH to shut Scientology down.

    So no CD.

    There will be no mea culpa.

  226. Karen#1 said:-
    “Every time I connect with someone I have been carefully indoctrinated to believe is a a high velocity ENEMY, I never cease to be amazed at how much goodness there is when the person is viewed from a 360 degree perspective. ”

    I’ve many times stated that the critics have a similar viewpoint to
    the Freezoners. They both want to make the world a better place.

    There are a few, who are rabidly anti anything connected to scn.
    Just google my name and you will immediately see some of the efforts
    against myself. 🙂

    I’ve met quite a few and have partied with some. 🙂 This is apart from my regular meetings at London protests. What I have found is that
    the best of them are very smart and have great support for human
    rights including for FZers/independents rights to freely have their beliefs and practices. And they have, some of them, been very supportive of the FZ. Just google “Freezone Bible Association”.

    Cheers to a better wotrld. 🙂

  227. RAY
    “I once told Marty, early on, that I found the ethics aspects of Scientology to be abhorrent. He disagreed and I left it at that. It’s not my place in life, now, to even try to bring up specifics because I readily acknowledge that I may not understand.”

    I like the ethics tech, was an E/O. However its lets say a loaded gun in the wrong hands.

    I like Mr Freebirds analysis here:-


  228. Yeah, man. Well said.

  229. Wow. Just saw this little brouhaha that I seem to have stirred up. Thanks to CD and Mike for your support.

    RJ, you’re entitled to your view, as I am mine. The “official” record that I cited is a court judgment in the appeal proceedings. I posted it because I thought people might appreciate the opportunity to read the official version. The reader must bear in mind that the convictions were based upon pleas of guilty and stipulations of evidence which were agreed to by the defendants. For those reasons, I personally find the official version far more convincing than the conspiracy theories. I leave others to form their own views.

  230. Heather,

    First of all they did not plead guilty but Nolo contendere.

    Secondly it is not “conspiracy theory” (a claim used by some to dismiss any argument that isn’t the accepted Government approved myth) but documented fact.

    Based on documents many that were released over two decades after the fact and were originally withheld for “reasons of National Security” and those that Omar Garrison himself was able to obtain through FOIA.

    The documents you link only give the Government’s side of the case as covered in the original “Stipulation of ‘Evidence'” which is flawed to say the least.

    It also covers the Government’s justification and rationalization for denying an appeal.

    An appeal that was promised to avoid presenting evidence in open court but never granted probably to avoid presenting all documents which included CIA’s involvement with the Remote Viewing project.

    Something that is covered here in Ken Kress’s Parapsychology in Intelligence: A personal Review and Conclusions in the ‘New Postscript’ (1999) which you can read in the following text:


    Personally I prefer the truth over what is popularly accepted either by design or by propaganda and information control.

    Also I don’t understand your objection to conspiracy since this is what the Government’s case is based on.

    Those who were indicted with the exception of Michael Meisner and Gerald Wolfe were indicted as co-conspirators.

    In fact if it wasn’t for the Government’s own “conspiracy theory” they wouldn’t have had a case against the other nine defendants.

    So regarding “conspiracy theories”.

    It’s just simply a matter of who’s ox is gored.

    Isn’t it?

  231. Thanks, Old Fox.

  232. Yes, I think it could become a hit.

  233. Dennis,
    Did you cut a ($) deal with the church?

  234. OTDT,
    After attempting to reform the cult from within and without since the early 80s, to settle the lawsuit from the raid, – http://tinyurl.com/3xmzh4l – the “deal I cut” in 1999 is right here: http://tinyurl.com/37k9z2q
    As you can see, $ was part of it.

  235. Really enjoyed this one Marty. Thank you for hosting it.

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