Wanna know what one can do to educate the clueless?
This here is pretty darn interesting:
“Problems in Afghanistan”???? Wha — what?! That was pretty non sequitur!
The celebs we saw here are very well-paid in their careers. They probably receive auditing which is closer to actual LRH than what the public get, for obvious reasons, if they are even receiving any auditing at all, that is.
Nathan Suplee seems well-drilled in “don’t look”. I can tell he’s an average Joe who hit it pretty big, relatively speaking. Probably a nice guy. But he’s obviously sheltered in the bubble called Hollywood.
The viewpoint of Juliett Lewis is basically a big not-is. She is semi-rich. She is semi-famous. Her valence is a bit drunken and party-girl-ish. Always has been. Her “handling” is a bit 1.1 toward Bunker. Pretending to smile but deeply resenting him.
Yep, the pampered celebs are in a cocoon of ignorance.
I agree Cat…………..
She’s in confusion.
Right Bryon. Per LRH, most celebs are being “interesting” as opposed to “interested”. (Definition of Interested/Interesting in the tech dictionary.
Sheeple with blinders. Like the 3 monkeys. BUT of course ,,,, See no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil, because your brainwashed and will believe whatever your told. Oh, BTW helps if your a celebrity with mega bucks to pay outrageous prices. Sorry to be so scathing …. Just really irksome to me.
An interesting question, ‘as an actor would you not research your character and read multiple views so you can hone your understanding of your character/performance?’
Like hello, wakey, wakey!
What good fortune for governments that the people do not think.
When Knowledge Report comes out, it will highlight the cocoon of ignorance amongst celebs when contrasted with what I’m sure will be a thorough display of the multitudes of reports about POB’s violence and psychosis.
Wow-Ethan has lost alot of weight-is he on Kirsties diet? I”m sure all those talking to Mark, like Kirstie’s son and Ethan will be sent to cramming as they very nicely got in comm.
I have attention on the last post where Marty commented “the worst is yet to come”-what will that be?
Including Upper-Indoc TR’s!
For the cramming, that is.
Mark Bunker is a very level-headed fellow even when surrounded by brainwashed zombies. Interesting and informative clip.
I’m struck by the apparent lack of curiosity but what they say on the street may not be how they actually feel. These people have influence within Scientology, with DM, and they are not using it to exact change. That’s what angers me about these “celebrities.”. Maybe it’s due to the narcissistic nature of their profession, but I would expect them to be a tad more curious about how staff are treated.
Sue, look up the definition of Interested/Interesting about celebs in the tech dictionary. Then you will understand.
Mark won’t find many inquiring minds in that bunch.
Mark Bunker has a lot of guts and he is a real nice guy.
It’s funny to me that a non -Scientologist is doing more than a lot of Scientologists to help free it from the abusive tyrant.
That was Brandy and Juliet he was talking to in the clip by the way. Brandy is an amazing being. I know she’ll figure it out. Can’t wait to catch up with her again.
Hey Brandy! When you finally make your way onto this blog I wanted to be the first person to welcome you old friend.
Mark Bunker. Pass on TR0.
Juliette, her mom (Phyllis?), Ethan … separated from the herd, coddled and coached at CCI about the “suppression in the industry,” deeply underscored by the fear of what would happen to their careers should they step outside the bubble. Ethan was pretty wild and fearless before he made it; but on this video he was so beaten down and submissive. Very sad. Ethan, if this gets back to you, read friendsoflrh.org.
Right. Check out Ethan in “The Butterfly Effect”.
Juliette Lewis’ Mom is Glennis Lewis, and her Dad is Geoff Lewis.
Ethan has lost a lot of weight…but I agree, sooo sad to see him! I
taught Ethan way back when he was 2 years old. He was so adorable
and feisty then. He looks SO much older than his real age, it’s literally
hard for me to believe that’s him. I don’t say that to put him down, it’s just
frightening to see someone change so dramatically.
Ethan—or any of the kids I knew “in”
Scientology–please google my name, and call me and talk: Life is WAY
different than you are being told. I know, I bought it just as you are.
As I’ve said for 11 years now: Read, Look, Listen: Learn *both* sides…and then make up your *own* mind. As long as you only know one side…how can you possible judge what is and is not true?
Connect the dots—the information is free…really free. 🙂
Used to be Tory Bezazian
Some have other priorities and are clueless. Enforced blindness is the root cause.
This is why sheeple pay more attention to ‘world news’ instead of what’s important, their freedom, personal integrity, etc.
They’d sooner ‘trust’ the Co$ storyline than the truth line. Mark was hitting a concrete wall laced with ‘no interest’ and ‘I’d rather be blind’ than ‘buy whatever Mark is slinging’. Probably didn’t know that Mark was anyone of note.
There is a perfect example of the tool of religious manipulation of creating an insular society that turns a blind eye to the reality around them to be comfortably numb to abuse, mental degradation, and emotional bankruptcy. The people who say: “It doesn’t involve me.” are enabling the abuse to continue by distancing themselves from truth and living lies served up by the chaos that is the Co$. I can see these people happily drinking the Kool Aid, thinking its another supplement, vitamin regimen, or antitoxin because they have turned off reason, independent thought and rationality for the cult ideal. I know I probably shouldn’t be surprised, but I am astonished too that people in this day and age would willingly be ignorant in the name of religion.
Responsibility for Scientology includes looking at the actual treatment of staff and SO members. “I’m doing great” just doesn’t cut it. Others have to be doing great also. Scientology is supposed to be the game where everybody wins. Would you buy a nice suit if you knew it was made in a sweatshop?
Very relevant at this time Byron. I wish people would look and do some critical thinking of thier own.
One more thing…. the reason sheeple with blinders on is so irksome to me. Is it is so very disappointing and sad to see your fellow man, doing an activity that is meant to enhance you awareness and your ability to observe from a place of sanity the truth of mankind, yet not doing it at all. Zero real awareness of the real world. Zero confront on the ‘real’ conditions of the organization you ‘pay’ your allegiance too.
What I see in the video is that the celebs are not even LOOKING. Let alone spotting any outpoints with the tech or the Church. Sad, sad, sad. Marty’s got it right. They are clueless.
It seems celebs have a more cloistered life than the rest of us as far as the insanity goes.But they must get the same auditing of 3 swing F/Ns , heavy sec checking etc. And I’m sure they get hit up for big donos.
Glad you liked it. It was a fun night.
Very interesting KR video Mark. You fully captured the essence of the “no look” and see no evil viewpoint of these cats with their self- created and enforced attenuated senses in their lives.
“Earl” was very careful in what he said and Afghanistan seemed safe to him, totally concerned how he was going to be reported and what comes up next time he goes on the meter.
Your KR is very educational.
Sent you a mail Mark not sure if you got it on either of the “old” accounts?
This Kirstie event just seems to me to be a fixation on money and material gain. Well, take a celeb attach a product; its as old as the hills. She looses weight and gets press; she wants to leverage it at public expense. The others just tag-along. So capitalistic.
Actually I think Kirtie’s program is all about material loss. Like flubber. Lose the flubber. You can’t begrudge a person looking to help others be healthier now can you?
But *is* she actually helping others?
I have an issue offering a product that has no science to back up its claims. Kirstie Alley is still fat. Maybe if she had at least lost a bunch of weight, that might be an indication that it’s actually a weight loss product. As it is, she’s making a lot of claims with zip to back it up. And people are swallowing it, literally and figuratively.
She’s squirrel, plain and simple.
I don’t know if you ever trained in Scientology communication courses, or TR’s, but from what I could see… you have excellent TR’s! There comfortablly, repeated the question when not answered by them. Not bad!
I had to laugh at the contrast, seeing “scientologist” celebs NOT confronting, stammering, avoiding “physically” thoughts and ideas you were throwing at them. It was comical to see the cringe factor on their part.
What you captured on film, by the celebs, is exactlly what NOT to do. Shame they don’t get that. I also found it interesting they had no, or few, questions of You! “Who are you again? Why are you here at this event, and talking about David Miscavage who isn’t here? What does what you are doing, have to do with …???” They couldn’t even get there because their TR-0 was so far gone. Out. Flunk! “Uh… Afghanistan. Wow.”
Sad, really. It’s because of this state they are in that leads me to just giving up on these people. Until they come to some sort of realization on their own, and start to look… they are beyond help.
Good stuff! Carry on. Looking forward to the movie!
Mark, thanks a lot man! you were just perfect… next time you run into a clueless Scientologist ask them WHY DON’T Y O U LOOK?
i think this will handle a lot… why don’t YOU look and know for YOURSELF as they PREACH?
Common denominator of the CoM bots? No or, VERY low, confront of evil…
That actor is a perfect example of someone not wanting to look. He acts like he is interested in world situations but doesn’t want to get his “hands dirty” looking into the data. That to me is a good definition of Bot.
True, but it seems we bestow far too much credence on the belief that an actor is intelligent. I remember once Elvis was asked in an interview ages ago what he thought about the political situation is Cuba. He looked somewhat incredulously at the interviewer and said something like, “how the hell I would know, I’m just an entertainer.”
To add, please don’t think I’m generalising about actors, heaven forbid. I just mean that the hat of a Scientologist is rather specific if one does the research and study. The Codes of Scientology says it all, – being famous doesn’t supplant the ability to look and stay true to the goals required for the attainment of freedom.
I was just addressing the point that this actor “seemed” to care about Afghanistan and thereby posed as someone who “cares” about abuses and unsavory situations. You would think someone involved with the philosophy of Scientology would care enough to AT LEAST look into the allegations and not just decide “it’s all untrue” without even looking at the data.
Hi ya Tony,
Yep, it’s pretty unaware of the little darling isn’t it?
I wonder what they think a Scientologist actually is? To sit around their coffee table and discuss LRH – one can only image what would be said…
The Way to Happiness – Impersonate an Ostrich!
L.O.L.!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Sad but ostrichy…
This is a little off the subject-It is official, I am an SP. Jojo Zawawe, the facebook police has informed several people I know, that I am an SP and to defriend me. All I can say is flunk for comm lag. Jeese, how long have I been out?
If I had a face book account I would certainly be happy to have you as friend.
Well it’s about time you were properly awarded your pan-determinism cert C&A is just so backlogged with the unprecidented expansion and all. Do they still give you a copy to frame? By now you deserve to have a gold seal on it. Well done Ingrid! I guess it’s ok to be your friend on FB now.
“… just so backlogged with the unprecedented expansion and all.” Now that’s an uncharitable comment if I ever heard one! Those poor guys probably had to dedicate a whole press to the declares.
When one is not willing to confront it or cannot confront it, find something one considers a bigger fiasco to minimize it in context and thus lesson ones guilt, need to act, or responsibility. LRH had a term for them: panty waist dilletantes.
My comment was meant to be in response to Freedom Fighters
I’ve gotta say, Mark, you really hit the nail on the head in this video.
When I was “in”, I would rarely look up any news items on Scientology online — there was a period when Tom Cruise started putting Scientology in the almost-daily headlines, and I stayed on top of things for a while. But after a while — especially after the leak of Tom’s crazy ranting video — I started only looking at pro-CoS stories, and ignored the negative ones.
And so when the “new Scientology ads” were in the news (July 2008 I believe), and were actually getting some positive press, I started reading the articles. In one, by an LA Times reporter, he made mention of “recent senior executives” speaking out. Well, I was curious and made my way over to the Truth Rundown … watched Marty, read Jeff’s story, Geir’s story, etc. … and, well, the rest is history.
Here’s one big difference, at least for me. It wasn’t that being in the Sea Org was a tightly controlled environment: hard work, long hours, shared/tight living quarters, and little pay. From my perspective, anyone joining the Sea Org pretty much knew that that was coming. I felt horrible when they didn’t and they ended up hating it and blowing (which happened way too often, and is a whole other issue in itself).
No, for me, it was seeing truly credible evidence — from many many insider sources — that there was violence, and physical abuse at the top, directly from Miscavige. At that point, I knew things had gone wayyy off the rails and that I could no longer support the official Church of Scientology.
But it took getting that credible evidence — from multiple insider sources — for me to come to that realization.
I totally agree with you. I’ve been there too so I can understand these people’s reactions. They are “programmed” to react like this. The truth was way above my awareness level. I was clueless. I remember watching Marty’s interview in the SP Times and I thought it just can’t be true… Then I saw and read more and more stuff as I needed to find out. After 4-5 people told the same stories including Mike Rinder who was my favorite speaker at the events I knew I smelled the truth behind the scene. Reading different blogs, KRs etc. from former members gave me the full picture of the unbelievable. And it totally made sense. So we have to figure out the buttons to reach and wake up these people. What to say to reach an agreement on their awareness and reality level. Something that get them curious enough to look and find out… I remember I was afraid to find out because I would “loose” my bridge and eternity. If I had only known years ago that I could get standard tech outside I would have left long ago.
“Do you know that COB is beating people? And do you know you can get standard training and auditing outside – without any IAS and other money regs. Where you can tell whatever and not be invalidated or sent to Ethics for nothing? And at prices where clearing the planet is within reach in YOUR lifetime…”
Easy. Dissem drill. Ironic.
Q: What are your goals in Scn?
A: Easy dip-s**t: unprecedented expansion!
Q: Got it. How are you personally involved?
A: Hey man, I’m a Super Meritorious IAS!
Q: Aha! Good! You’re very wealthy?
A: Well … I’m happier now! And I got my Donation Clear Cert!
Q: Of course. When was your last meal?
A: Two days ago.
Q: Wow. How does this affect you? [then on up through fear of worsening, buy him a burger, demand for improvement, etc.]
Exactly, you need to find their awareness level and maintain ARC. The New Yorker and CNN are no opinion leaders to them and Davey being bad boy is something they’ll confront last. Just take them up on their reality and get them looking a bit. That’s the direction ofyour comm for them as well as for you. They will be aware of their non existent Bridge progress, the $$$$ it costs, auditing not being a happy endeavour whereas it used to be the best thing ever happened to them, Marty being an SP, etc. From there you can ask for the reasons and what will happen if it doesn’t change, etc.
Igorence is …ahhhh….ummmmm…duuuuh….
oh yea! i remembre, ignorance is bliss:)
The trolls are all over Facebook too.
ha ha: ‘you wanna talk about religion on THE STREET???’
Note to Div 6. So much for personality tests and body routing, off the street!
“Just because it’s on the Internet doesn’t make it true…” seems to be said by a lot of brainwashed cult members. They seem to want to discount anything if it appears on the Internet. They seem to think “well, as long as I’m doing OK and I can still go to Celebrity Center, things can’t be that bad.” It’s like they’re living in a bubble. I felt like saying to that actor guy “Just because it’s on the Internet doesn’t make it false.” Juliette Lewis was intent on not talking about anything that wasn’t related to the food event; she’s doing a good job of keeping her head in the sand.
I think its really important that we hat ourselves on this issue of group dynamics (not The Group Dynamic, but the dynamics of how groups expand/contract as individuals):
This is some very workable technology.
I know that LRH predicted Facebook and the social media (Bony Finger Advices) but I often wonder how it would be different if he’d managed to stay in the game another 10 years at least ..
Every thinking, rational person I know or have read about for the many decades of my life has been interested and curious about the world around him or her: has been able and willing to look at differing viewpoints; has been able and willing to ask questions; and has been able and willing to change his or her mind. That’s one of the great truths I found in philosophies having different names, and yes, in Scientology. The people Mark interviewed in this video were self-absorbed, ideologically spoon-fed zombies. If this is what has become of those remaining in Miscavige’s church, they already have their eternity — an eternity of slumber. But it’s not surprising. You can see this everywhere in all facets of our society. If they are not numbed down by a narrow ideology, they are numbed down by media, or by both. They are the antithesis of being self-determined and are light years from being pan-determined. Folks, It’s a continual struggle to stay awake.
+1 and a half.
Michael, I sure do hope to meet you one day.
You and Jason Beghe are stellar examples of celebrities who are not self absorbed . You guys are very REAL!
Michael, you stated it so well… an eternity of slumber… I am proud we are together in this new struggle now!
+1 Very well expressed.
Can you repeat that? I was sleeping.
What I find admirable about Mark Bunker is the fact that he remains polite, unflappable and asks logical questions. He doesnt waste time being a smart-ass. Plus, I agree with Sam. He has good confront. I dont agree with Mark about the value of Scientology, but I do appreciate his sensible and unsensationalistic efforts to expose the abuses in the RCS.
Darn interesting indeed – the valence of a celebrity. Seems to me a lot of cheery smiles and “my life is great, don’t you think so, wouldn’t you love to be like me?” oozing from those people. Which is all fine in that universe I guess. But to call oneself a Scientologist and be there… well, just how many of them have audited others? How many have handed the cans to someone not so happy smiley and done hours in the chair to produce a meaningful smile.
The tenet of seriousness hides just below their glamorous veneer. To be interesting and not interested is a self made trap to nowhere.
Kind of sad really, their future is set (in concrete) that’s for sure. Maybe this movie will wake a few of ’em up. I hope so because being a coverted opinion leader of sheeple is such a demanding career and the POB is such a nice guy.
Mark, you are asking the key questions that need to be asked and doing a fearless job of it. One of the “abilities gained” on the Grade Chart is the “ability to spot the source of problems and make them vanish.” Concerning the CoS, the source of the problem is David Miscavige. He, of course, hides by blaming his criminal actions on the tech itself and thereby he has given the tech a rancid reputation. If you think poorly of the tech, I for one would not blame you. Everything the CoS does is a horrific reflection on the value of Scientology.
Overall, the fact that you care enough about people to do what you are doing… it’s remarkable. Your integrity is remarkable. And your courage is remarkable. You are definitely a freedom fighter.
Well, those guys goes to the party, and then there is this guy from Anonymous asking them what they would identify as “entheta questions”. They actually certainly don’t have a clue of what’s going on behind the curtain.
They need their certainties, and they know that actually wondering about what the hell is going on is going to jeopadize their scientology wins. They don’t have any PLEASURE to find a truth, they didn’t experience the “finding out” orgasm, they are into reasonableness, they are blind to out points. Also, they don’t have any past ideal scene to compare with. And they also have wins, despite the fact that DM is leading, there is still wins, because after all, it’s still scientology. I just met a friend who came back from Flag, he got objectives redone in co-audit, and he was VVGI’s. Really, shiny eyes, red skin, uptone. And he also believes all the bla about ideal orgs… and all the shit. Now, tell him about the outpoints, he will not believe it. This is what we go against mainly. They still make product. I am not a troll to dare to say that on this blog, it’s what I have observed.
And I also could say to church members that I have observed that DM is lying. 30 years of outpoints that I have watched with my own eyes, when many of you were still “good” scientologists. I was also, but I knew deeply something was wrong, because I studied the data series, and I’m dead curious. And I have had to withhold all my doubts on the eligibilities (by the way the first draft of this PL in 1982 was “assisted by snr CS int” the first DM before the current DM.) But those customers from today, they have lost track of this. Only old timers can compare and evaluate.
But repeating again and again the same thing about DM abuse will finally come home.
Hehe FG… the “finding out” orgasm.. i love it and i called those bots unorgasmic… hahaha.. such a sterile environment there.. thanks for your points here… i think it’s correct to say that those orgs are still doing Scientology even if DM has made a big effort against ONE thing:
Total Freedom… yes they can have wins and red skin but they can have NO integrigy and No Escape from the boundaries of being a good boy and a good girl. So there is no way out, there. I signed up my SO contract which says to put Ethics in on this planet and the Universe. And this is what I am doing. And I feel much better now with my Integrity.
If heber would have been interviewed with mark in thecstreet he would have at least held his space and have a real comm cycle. When he talked you listened. I miss him. Sorry a bit off topic. 🙂
I think many of us miss the Heber of yesteryear. I don’t know what he would be like now. Heber would hold his position while at the same time granting beingness to others.. Someday, the razor fences will come down and all those on the RPF, in the “hole” and anywhere in the world will be given a chance to run their life as they wish.
After all, Life is meant to be lived and the tech is merely a tool to help us. We still have to LIVE the life we want and create out future.
I never forget of those locked down and held behind those razor fences. I look foward to the day they may have freedom if it is their desire.
This is perhaps an important thread.
Marty welcoming the efforts of ” Wise beard Man”. 🙂
The ” God” of anons”. 🙂
Been protesting with them since the beginning.
Protesting abuse. This is the important issue!!!!
The “see no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil” behavior …
In the late ’80s when all the emphasis was placed on sec-checking and rollback tech, for me it just didn’t pass the smell test. This is because any fool knows that most PCs just want to do the bridge because that’s where the super gains are! The sec-checking tech has its place on the bridge when you’re going for a grade chart EP; or rarely as a remedy.
Talk about your wrong fucking why.
Anyway, I observed more than a few upper org PCs walking around in this make-believe world where everything is beautiful – while this veritable shit-storm of squirreling and abuse goes on around them.
Possible why: PCs not wanting to spend all their time grinding away at overts – really being made guilty of having committed overts.
So they end up occupying this little space where nothing goes wrong – where there is little possibility of stumbling into an overt against a suppressive moral code for which they would later be made guilty of having violated.
Lol, I am glad I am not part of that group… how blind… and how unorgasmic… I used this term since I liked the “finding out” orgasm term used above here in a post by FG. How more unorgasmic can those bots get?
The best person to get through to a Scientologist who is still connected to the church of scientology is an independent Scientologist.
Because of the (R)eality factor. Because like the Scientologist that is still connected with the church of scientology, the Independent Scientologist:
1. Agrees with them that Scientology technology works.
2. Agrees with them that LRH was a great man and being.
3. Understands Scientology & Dianetics and can converse with them on that subject therefor bringing up the (A)ffinity factor.
In my opinion, they are the ones that have the best chance of getting through to them, and even then I think it would be difficult.
Someone like Bunker, where those 3 points are out, it would be almost impossible to get through to them. In some ways it could even have a reverse effect.
AC — you are probably very correct, but Mark Bunker cannot be what he isnt and you have to give him props for doing a dignified, polite job. I believe, that like many others, he is genuinely puzzled and would very much like to understand the observable outpoints in the actions of these people and their apparent refusal to be willing to see, know or make up their own minds. I am not trying to be Mark Bunker’s PR man, but I do respect his approach and I believe he genuinely wants to know the answers to his questions and frankly, those people SHOULD be able to answer them without sounding like fools. So, while he may not change their minds, maybe he will get them to stop and wonder. One things celebrities are aware of is how they appear on camera….
If I knew for certain that Mark Bunker’s efforts in this case weren’t counter production, I would applaud him for trying.
I think that the best person to get through to a celebrity Scientologist that is still connected to the church of scientology would be a celebrity Independent Scientologist.
In that way, there would be an even stronger Reality factor and there would be a greater chance that they would listen to what they had to say.
AC — Good theory, though I am not sure it works that way in practice. Ask Michael Fairman, Jason Beghe, Larry Anderson or Paul Haggis whether they had any success talking to these other celebrities who are still drinking the KoolAid.
By personal observation, what seems to be needed to snap people out of it is something that personally impinges on their wellbeing. Out tech that caves them in (I would guess neither Ethan Suplee nor Juliette have recently been on lines), screwed over financially (didnt look like it from the car they drove off in) or disconnection of a family member.
But who really knows.
I believe that the efforts of anyone, whether an independent Scientologist or not, to shine the light on what is really going on cannot be harmful. I certainly dont think that Mark Bunker made those people any more rigid in their certainty that everything is fine in the land of POB. That would be a virtual impossibility it seems.
Mike I agree… Mark Bunker did a terrific job, was polite and really maintained ARC. After all he is a thetan too! The thetan knows.
I think Indies are not the best to talk to clueless Scientologists because WE are more dangerous to them… Mark Bunker is less Dangerous since he is NOT a Scientologist. But with US they have trouble like LRH says there is no More Hatred like between Brothers.. I remember this from somewhere. So we are brothers but they hate us… because we are free now…
I think they wouldn’t talk to us…. hehehe.. you cannot see your brother getting out of the suppression of the family and speak good with him… while you are the good boy or girl who stays in the familly and you are suppressed anyhow but what can you do anyway. Dad and Mom are feeding you… Your survival DEPENDS UTTERLY on them. So how did this bloody brother of your’s do it? See?
So a stranger who is a known SP like say Mark Bunker is more easy to confront because they all know he is BAD already, hahaha. But how come those guys, the Indies, are Scientologists or say they are and BE OUT?
Maybe they are a bit jealous of us? haha! Maybe they cannot confront us? Maybe now they cannot confront a comm cycle with us since they are NOT them anymore but in SOME OTHER VALENCE? lol… MIke we are moving up a little higher! And we can pull more up now!
“I think Indies are not the best to talk to clueless Scientologists because WE are more dangerous to them… Mark Bunker is less Dangerous since he is NOT a Scientologist.”
The problem is that they are just going to write non-scientologists off as not knowing what they are talking about or that they are SPs or connected to SPs.
LRH taught in his lectures not to converse about Scientology with the uninformed.
“I think Indies are not the best to talk to clueless Scientologists because WE are more dangerous to them… ”
Also, when an Independent scientologist starts talking to them, the other scientologist isn’t going to know at first that it’s an independent scientologist talking to them but just another scientologist like them and before they find out it’s a scientologist that left the church, the message about what’s going on would have already gotten through.
With all due respect Mike. Let me ask you this question if may.
Mark Bunker has been doing his videoing thing for a little over 10 years now.
Of all the reasons you had for leaving the church of scientology, was something Mark Bunker said to you among those reasons?
Was anything Mark Bunker ever said to you back when you were still in instrumental in you leaving the church?
No and No.
And that means?
It supports my above point.
Mark Bunker isn’t the right person to get through to Scientologists who are still connected to the church of scientology for the 3 reasons I sited above.
No Reality factor.
He didn’t get through to you, so what makes you think it’s going to be any different with those celebrity scientologists?
I never thought or said he would “get through” to any celebrity, just as I said I dont think an “independent celebrity” would “get through” to a celebrity.
Why do you feel an Independent celebrity Scientologist wouldn’t be able to get through to a celebrity Scientologist still connected to the church of scientology despite the strong Reality factor?
“AC — Good theory, though I am not sure it works that way in practice. Ask Michael Fairman, Jason Beghe, Larry Anderson or Paul Haggis whether they had any success talking to these other celebrities who are still drinking the KoolAid.”
Well Mike, I don’t have access to them to ask them.
What was the result that happened when they tried and what was the reason they gave that it didn’t go well?
Read their write ups on this blog how they were “confronted” by KoolAid celebs trying to “handle” them and how they wouldnt listen to a single word they said. When they tried to point out any outnesses the KACs refused to listen. See New Yorker article on Paul. SP Times on Larry. Jason and Michael here in various places.
Do you feel that ALL of the Celebs in the church of scientology are KoolAid drinkers?
When you say “they were “confronted”, do you mean that KoolAid drinking Celebs were coming after Independent Celebs to “handle” them just like the group that came out to handle you?
Timing is an issue too. Maybe if he wasn’t crashing a party………? Those people were meeting to celebrate something and he was there to enturbulate. So, there wasn’t any meeting of the minds. I think that is understandable. There are certain cultures that if you showed up to some celebration and began talking against Catholics you would get stabbed to death. It is amusing that the squirrel busters seem to have gone into Bunker’s bag of tricks. Because they have been doing the exact same thing to Marty.
The Scientologists in this video did not look like the clueless ones to me.
The party crasher does.
Unaware of the New Yorker or Paul Haggis? That’s pretty clueless in my book.
It was clueless.
If they do not understand conditions beyond the Church or how the society functions or the culture outside funtions, they cannot make reasonable decisions for the people they do have to and want to live as part of the society beyond the Church walls.
They are just going to say and do things that are wholly secular and lead to very bad P.R.. In their minds they are a majority because them is all they see. You get a real disfunction going on. And justice gets as blind as it gets. You have to be able to think for two parties or more before you can have a clear sense of justice. These people do not think with anything that exists beyond their work space.
They are provided for like children. They are given orders,
told what to where, where to sleep, what to say, what not to say. It is a very infantile existence. Except most kids are encouraged to go out and play. They are not.
When the community or someone points this a ” not O.K., ” they just see it as “anti Scientology” slather. Well, who would not get anti Scientology after hearing about that? But there is NEVER any shame or remorse from the Church about ANYTHING. This is juvenile.
They sent hundreds of people to go do OT8 and called them a few years later and told them it was all an overt product at 40,000.00 a pop without the slightest shame or remorse. They blamed it on David Mayo who hadn’t even been on lines for seven or eight years. It is juvenile to lie.
These CMO that have been in charge of matters more or less grew up in the Church. Most of them wouldn’t know how to rent an apartment or drive a car. They have not advanced skill wise, socially or bridge wise. On some level socially they are very juvenile even though, they are in their 30’s their 40’s and 50’s now. The yelling is like little kids throwing temper tantrums. The hitting? That’s a spoiled kid!
It’s kind of obvious why things have gone off the rails. You have little kids in old bodies.
Marty, was a grown man already when he got involved in Scientology and he ended up with a bunch of overgrown kids. They know him. They loved him. And he is real to them and the only one safe for them to turn to in a world they never grew up in.
That’s why he’s been able to put their ethics in from the outside.
Well, I gotta disagree that he was there to enturbulate. Celebrities show up to events like this with the full expectation (and usually hope) that there will be people with cameras wanting to shoot them. True seemed to be pretty unfased and did a decent job of answering what was a pretty silly question by MB. Suplee looked stupid. Juliette told him they werent there to discuss Scientology and really didnt engage in any discussion and Bunker told her he was a big fan and would like to interview her. Hardly worthy of being stabbed to death!!!
Maybe all true. But I wouldn’t permit Bunker to build walls between me and other Scientologists. I didn’t cross over with Mayo when he left. Although I was curious, probably would have if I didn’t have all that money on account. Yep, I couldn’t stand the thought of losing all of that money I had on account. I didn’t follow a lot of people out. If fact I put it all behind me until 9/11. So I never followed anyone out. Most of us here didn’t follow anyone out, we led the way. I had my own moments of not wanting to hear the worst. I listened but I wished it hadn’t been put in my path. I left. You left, They will leave too. This conflict between us and them is because of David Miscavige. We really don’t dislike them. I did have similar issues of my own I had to overcome. Inconvenient truths. They will all know sooner or later . If the climate is friendly and welcoming here it will be easier . It is not easy to walk away from something into nothing. That takes a tremendous amount of courage I wouldn’t hang on the average person. So, it’s about the mercy. It’s about keeping the porchlight on and making it a safe space over here. This can be a safe space for everyone. People gravitate to safe spaces, and safe people.
Fair enough — but I dont see how Bunker could possibly build walls between you and other Scientologists. No more than the New Yorker can do so. Or the St Pete Times. Or any other person or entity. Your lines are your lines. Use them as you see fit. I have no doubt you are a safe terminal, not made any less safe by Mark Bunker or anyone else.
Oh I could be made much less safe by Mark Bunker. But we’de better cool it down before we fall in love.
hahaha Theoracle, such a humorous statement. Sorry for intervening i posted above to Mike about what is my viewpoint and why Mark Bunker could have a comm cycle with clueless Scientologists whereas they wouldn’t have one with Indies. Maybe you can read this if you have time. But Mark Bunker was polite and after all he is a thetan so i think he gets to know more and more about Theta be it through the Indies or through the clueless Scientologists. ANd I think he sees that the Indies are a wild breed of cats. Those guys communicate openly while the Clueless ones are so closed. Hahaha… I think Mike has this viewpoint now and we all do to a degree and i would agree and i know you would too that YOUR AFFINITY cannot be alloyed by anything. We have permeated that space now Oracle and we have brought Anons, SPs, Squirrels, Journalists and Clueless Scientologists INTO COMMUNICATION. Hahahha, i love it, don’t you?
I have blanket disagreements with protestors showing up at people’s homes, messing with their kids, and business, and social life. Religion is a private thing and everyone’s human right in this country. He is punishing people for knowing their rights. He went straight for Kirstie’s kid in that video. Some things are off limits. I don’t support this because if he showed up on my front yard, or at my party, or anywhere near my children I would be looking forward to one long well deserved vacation. You don’t see him up in Spanish Harlem crashing a wedding and making fun of the pope. There are plenty of bad scenes out here with groups far worse than what the Church is right now. He targets Scientologists because he can get away with it and he knows he can abuse them and they will not react because of PR. I gotta worry about him in my front yard if I want to open a mission someday? Whether he likes it or not those people at that party have a right to be Scientologists. I don’t see him in front of Saint Patrick’s Cathedral asking people if they know about the sex scandals. He would never DARE. He is making people wrong, for having rights. That is my point. He is not making people right for knowing wrong. THIS is the difference between him and Marty.
“He is making people wrong, for having rights. That is my point. He is not making people right for knowing wrong. THIS is the difference between him and Marty.”
People don’t respond by attempts of others to make them wrong. All it does is cause them to assert the rightness of what they are doing, which is being a scientologist connected to the church of scientology.
There were some pretty recognizable generalities in his comm cycle, though .. you have to admit that.
the ending of this video says it all… we are “trained” to look, yet we can’t see past are own face!
Steve Hassan nailed this phenomenon in “Releasing the Bonds”, a book he dedicated to Lisa McPherson, it’s a worthwhile read.
I love the fact that DM can’t keep a lid on anything! I mean think about it, this news is coming from trusted advisers. He has more leaks than the S.S. Titanic. It sounds like it is time for DM to slap some more people around, step in and show everyone in OSA how spying is done himself.
Oh my typos!
Bunker was just named the #7 person crippling Scientology. That’s a pretty big honor.
‘Absolution’ is my word assignment tonight for those inclined.
Most of these Scientology celebs are first dynamic oriented, craving attention, wana be validated, at that David Miscavige provides for them through the President office at CCI. None of these guys rolled their sleeves up and had sleepless nights like SO members or hardcore dedicated Scientologists have done. DM feeds them with golden spoon as long as they give him $$$$$$, one they stop, DM throws them under the bus. That is what I saw in the president office at CCI, lots of 1.1ness from staff to Celebs.
Next time someone gets a chance: Ask Ethan or Juliette or Brandy when was the last time they put a PC in session.
It seems that Karry and other Indies have also just recently been experiencing a bit of “bot activity” on the Indie Scientologist group Karry created on Facebook. Some people in the group have just started stirring shit for no apparent reason. Or is there a reason?
It’s called “date-coincidence” folks.
By the way, to join in the fray – all you have to do is go to the “Indie Scientologist” page on Facebook and request to join the group. Karry needs more help in keeping it a safe, theta space where Indies can communicate in a private, closed group. It now has over 200 members since it’s inception last month.
Thanks, me brotha’s and sista’s!
Can’t help but think of this:
Hubbard Chart of Human Evaluation, Column M (Reality),
Tone 4.0: Searches for different viewpoints in order to broaden own reality. Changes reality.
Tone 3.5: Ability to understand and evaluate reality of others and to change viewpoint. Agreeable.
Tone 3.0: Awareness of possible validity of different reality. Conservative agreement.
Tone 2.5 Refusal to match two realities. Indifference to conflicts in reality. Too careless to agree or disagree.
Tone 2.0: Verbal doubt–defense of own reality. Attempts to undermine others’. Disagrees.
Tone 1.5: Destruction of opposing reality. “You’re wrong.” Disagrees with reality of others.
When you’re a kool-aid drinking Scientologist, regarding anything that Scn talks about, you must always be below 3.0. Condemn all ideas from anyone other than LRH, condemn all other practices, condemn all drugs, etc. In other words, be a robot and DON’T think for yourself. Toe the line to church dogma. And yes, it is dogma, not philosophy.
Well, they actually cannot confront evil in their own group.That has been the way of nationalism and wars : the others are bad. They think they stand for their belief, for scientology. I used to think that way. I used to keep my doubts for myself, to believe it’s an abberation, coming from overts and whitholds, same mechanisme applied to communists in Stalin’s time. They were PTS, like they are now on the church. Like Hitler was Germany, Miscavige is Scientology. They live their life of good citizen, stay on the narrow path of kind straightness, keep cool as the most important thing is to go up the bridge, don’t want to jeopardize it, to wast the effort. They think they are on an island of sanity in the middle of the storm of the bank. That they need a skipper who is tough against all this ennemies, and even if DM can be tough guy, he is forgiven. Some maybe heard DM was beating his staffs, but they rationalize with “and so what, his task is so difficult, sometimes he goes enturbulated”. They believe he is doing for the greatest good. It tooks some time to the Germans to realize that Hitler was insane. If they heard the rumor of death camps, they would not listen for fear of being enturbulated, to have their own conscience waking up. To have to look, and they are now ennemy of the state, feeling more alone than ever, cannot even speak to own wife or husband, to loose their kids which are indoc into the hitlerjugend. Marty and Mike are in the position of people like Stauffenberg at his time. He wanted to free Germany from the führer, we want to free scientology from “COB”.
I was feeling terribly alone at event when I was secretly hating DM, having the strange idea that he was reminding me of Goebbels (by the way this is probably the restim of Caberta and co : totalitarian beings, they spotted it, and assigned it incorrectly to the whole of scientology). But scientologists are good people, some have perceptions and can think, but it’s tougher to observe that DM is a totalitarian personnality like Hitler or Stalin, because like them he takes his strength from a theta purpose. Hitler took the position of soul of Germany, Stalin was the hope for freedom of socialism, seems stupid now, but so many good people believed it.
DM is taking his stength from a much higher theta idea. But being what he is, he is getting rid of any and all good staffs, and he is more and more lonely. Please do read “An essay on management” in red volume one, it’s all there. Any scientologist independant or else could read this, it explains it all. LRH wrote it in 1951, a kind of prophecy. I could even “hip hip” LRH for this marvelous writing. This tape also : “Attitude and conduct of scientology” of 3 november 1955. We are run by a fascist, it’s a rather common thing in history of mankind that a great group or nation is run by such a personnality. Eventually, he’ll be found out and there will be a new breath of life and freedom in scientology.
In that famous youtube video, TC said something to the effect that if a scientologist sees a car wreck by the road, he HAS TO stop. The abilities that scientology has given him makes him responsible to help.
These celebs who have spent so much money for auditing–and have donated so much money to finance DMs illegal harrassment activities, his purchases of empty buildings, and his opulent lifestyle–cannot avoid seeing the car wreck that DM has created except by deliberately and intentionally putting their heads in the sand. They say scientology has helped them. If they are telling the truth they have a responsibility to do something about the current leadership of the church. Otherwise they are lying–they are saying “scientology has helped me” but really mean “the tech that miscavology has been practicing on me is a drug that I cannot give up and I’m a scared rabbit who doesn’t dare find out the truth.”
Far be it from me to disagree with ya’ll, but, while I find the tape mildly entertaining — the same way I find any ill-conceived attempt by the “media” to use any public event held for one purpose as an excuse to “get a story” on a completely unrelated issue no matter how far removed from the purpose of the event and then, when they catch their “prey” unawares, pounce on the even slightest mistake in their answers as some indication of how utterly interesting what they must be hiding must be — I do not actually see how this tape shows much of anything. Other than that these people were, understandably annoyed at having their friend’s business launch marred by a big fellow with a camera asking irrelevant questions.
Now, I don’t think the questions are irrelevant universally. And, I don’t think there’s anything amiss about investigative reporting, especially of the horrors which are being committed by the Corporate Church of Scientology daily.
I just think that you can’t draw all of those inferences ya’ll are drawing from this tape. In fact, what is being done in this tape is almost exactly the same kind of harrassment which Marty has suffered, only on a much smaller scale, every day of his life for the past … how long … year? Two?
The only analytically sound thing expressed in the entire tape is the comment by Mark Bunker, at the end, where he makes the observes the obvious in saying that when you are doing well (or think you are) “in” the Church of Scientology, you have no reason to look outside to find out supposedly bad things about the Church. Why would you? Why would you hire an investigator to shadow your wife, or husband, if you were happy with them and trusted them, just because some utter stranger came up and asked you if you knew what bad things they had, supposedly, been doing? In that context, the loyal spouse would punch the third-party in the nose and put the matter out of his, or her, mind. At least these ‘celebrities’ did not punch Mark Bunker in the nose.
The point I wish to make is that UNLESS a person already has doubt about the Church, or you are approached gently by someone the person considers a TRUSTED FRIEND or OPINION LEADER, no responsible, mature, intelligent, unreactive person, much less a person who has actually studied the Tech, would give someone like Mark Bunker a second thought, and they certainly would not waste their time to ‘research’ allegedly bad things posted on the internet about the Church.
This video does “sign to the Choir” as it were — the “Choir” being independents like me and people in the Church who already have doubts. But, beyond that, it is likely to be viewed by the people who are still loyal to the Church as an irrelevancy and entitled to almost as much credence as the ravings of the paparazzi these folks routinely have to step around to go on with their daily lives.
Me, I doubted the Church from virtually the day I set foot in a Mission. Nevertheless, the astonishing and wonderful Tech was, and is, SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO powerful that it took me 12-13 years and a lot of disappointment and wasted money, to step out of the Church and attest to Clear, finish my Grades, attest to OTIII, and proceed on into NOTS-land. What I could not even get started in 12 years in the Church, I managed to accomplish in spades (I’m planning my L’s next year!) I did in 15 months with Independent Scientologists. So, I know how valuable the Independent Scientology/Reform Scientology movement is. But, I do not believe you can impose the kind of Doubt which I had, and which led me to look elsewhere, from without.
These people’s Stable Datums are very important to them. As are everyone’s. Conflicting Stable Data are what causes wars; divorces; mayhem; ex-communications; “declares”; and “reform” movements.
If you want these people to “look”, you first have to find their “ruin”.
And, accosting these people, who came there just to help their friend launch her business (whatever you think of the business is irrelevant) with 1.1 comments about one of their most important Stable Data, is not apt to locate their ruin, much less do anything to cast doubt upon their Stable Data.
My opinion. You’re all free to disagree, as no doubt you will. 🙂
P. S. Someone, presumably the Church, tried to hack my Facebook account yesterday. This came on the heels of me getting a call from the Flag Justice Chief (about a week ago) telling me that both I and my Wife had been declared “a month ago”. Not that I mind being declared, mind you. Nor does my Wife. But, neither of us had any idea about this, and I still have no idea why … I did ask why, but the Justice Chief refused to tell me why, saying that “You know why.” Which of course, I don’t, since I never had a Comm Ev, never was notified of any charges, and never got any kind of Goldenrod. And, my friends on the inside even looked at all the HCO places they look and they could not find any Declares with my name on them. Maybe it was because I asked for my money back two months ago? But, since the Org hasn’t paid it back, and now the Chaplain even refuses acknowledge my requests to get my money back, that can’t be it. Anyway, I have no idea why I’ve now been reported to be declared, but I am amused by the Justice Chief’s assurance that I can handle this with A-E! Since that’s not going to happen, and since I am preparing a complaint to proper governmental authorities seeking their assistance in getting my money back, it looks like I won’t be getting any services from the Church in the foreseeable future!!!
I agree with you, Scott. If you ambush an actor with questions he could not possibly have expected of course he is going to be angry and defensive. I would be angry and defensive too. While I admit that I sometimes enjoy Bunker’s videos, I think he is very naive and, for such a greybearded man, very immature not to understand that the reactions he is getting when he ambushes people the way he does in this video are to be expected and do not reflect badly on his victims.
On the other hand (I cannot help it–I have two mental hands) there is no excuse for people like these celebs to have their heads in the sand. By not finding out what is going on and doing something about it they are proving that their auditing is a drug that makes them feel good but certainly does not make them better people with superior abilities.
Scott — Concerning your declare.
I understand there is a new breakthrough soon to be announced: The Golden Age of Goldenrod (GAG).
POB has *personally* devoted thousands of hours of his inestimably precious time to this, the most extensive Source revivification ™ project ever undertaken. Every single overt that has ever been committed against POB was carefully studied by him in order to *evolve* the GAG, straightening out the numerous omissions, alterations and, there is no other way of saying, the just plain idiocies that had been perpetrated by SPs starting in the 1950’s.
As a preview of some of the highlights of GAG:
* ALL new list of HIGH CRIMES — including, but not limited to: Reading the Internet, Thinking bad thoughts about COB, Failing to give your last penny to the IAS AND MANY MORE!
* Clarification of the reasons for disconnection — including but not limited to: Having undesirable friends on Facebook, Not attending IAS briefings, Reading a newspaper, YES, A COMPLETE LIST!
* A new, beautifully bound volume categorizing and listing every overt EVER committed by ANYONE against COB. With full glossary and illustrations, this is an invaluable (and mandatory) addition to your *LRH* Library — an item every single Scientologist must have for themselves and one for each member of their household and any pets, as well as one for each library, school and college within 100 miles. Nobody can afford to be without this handbook to ensure you know EXACTLY what to do or not do (until the updated volume is printed in 3 months). No more wondering whether you are going to run afoul of COB. The guesswork is GONE!
AND MUCH, MUCH MORE.
Coming to an empty org near you REALLY soon.
Thanks!!! What a hoot!!! What a line-charge I got from this!!!
And, by the way, I’m not excusing the celebrities for having their heads in the sand. They’ll get theirs, eventually. I just think there more productive ways to persuade them to look.
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