The world is leaving Scientology behind

Interesting how the more inclusive and empathic we become the more it seems to shake up and stir misemotion and divisivenes in some.  Aside from the trolls and OSA agents on our fringes, there are some who purport to be “independent Scientologists” who express a very narrow minded and intolerant view of those who do not march lock-step with the Scientology world view.

L Ron Hubbard was truly ahead of his time in many respects.  Unfortunately, for whatever reasons that could be debated for many lifetimes, his ideas were monopolized in a zealotous religious context that has resulted in Scientology being left in the dust by great minds. 

The following video presentation is a great example.  The fantastic “recent” discovery outlined in its opening few minutes I just listened to LRH detail fifty-eight years ago in the Philadelphia Doctorate Course.  Of course, he did so using his own terms and nomenclature.  So, what is a Scientologist (of the church variety) programmed to do?   Sneer in contempt because the the author of the video speaks in terms of “hard wiring” and relates it to mental health concepts of brain development instead of the timeless, immortal mind as descibed by LRH.  Sit back, arms tightly folded in arrogance, asserting an air of haughty rightness, gnashing his teeth contemplating the hopeless wrongness of the author.  In protest and to solidify that rightness and other-wrongness, he maybe takes a second morgtage on his home to donate another twenty-five grand to IAS, thinking it will be used to bust a couple psychs somewhere.  And in the interim, those many intelligent and caring minds (of whatever sciences and disciplines) move ahead trying to solve the very same problems Hubbard tried to solve thinking, with a great deal of justification, Scientologists are insular cultists with nothing to contribute.

I say “wake up”, read, investigate, discover, communicate.

Integrate or disintegrate.

435 responses to “The world is leaving Scientology behind

  1. I love this! During the general election in May, our local parliamentary candidate sent this around to people who were helping him as inspiration.

    But you make a good point about getting all worked up about nomenclature and how things can get lost in translation. I do this, so thanks for the reminder!

  2. We’re on the same page, Marty.

  3. GREAT one!

    THAT applied to the C of M alone would change it.

    It doesn’t matter that “we” in Scientology would call it Dynamics – I think what this guy describes even ADDS to the concept.

    Possibly some old-timer can help me here. In Denmark, there used to be an old “first day type” Scientologist (yes, there are some OSA guys in EU that knew him and came into Scientology because of him – provided there is still somebody left there 🙂 that used to make the most hilarious (and successful) Intro Lectures drawing cartoons on stage just about as fast as the guy in this video. Naturally, he’s no longer in Scientology and probably was burned on the stake for daring to disseminate it, successfully, that is. Anybody know who I am referring to (as I don’t have the name) and whether he is still alive?

  4. martyrathbun09

    I noticed from your last two comments to the last post which I didn’t get to till after I posted this new one. There’s stuff happening in the theta universe methinks.

  5. Marty,
    Don’t like the title: it’s a generality. My answer is to learn all there is to know about Scientology, the works of LRH, know it, apply it and apply it to others and spread the word. LRH very frequently attributed his discoveries to, and said they couldn’t have been done without the discoveries and writings of earlier philosophers and thinking men.

  6. martyrathbun09

    Understood. But, the title is my raison d’etre.

  7. Thank you so much for this, Marty. And, not just because I couldn’t agree with you more.

    Yes, even the matter of “flows” – known and put as a part of tech over 40 years ago by Ron.

    IMO, scientologists have an MU on “empathy” and “sympathy”.

    The lack of empathy, the tightly closed minds, the self and group rightousness on the part of many (I’d even say most) scientologists has been my struggle with coming back, connecting up and/or continuing to be a scientologist, independent or otherwise. It was a factor in my leaving, and one that I am proud to have gotten a handle on – even if it meant leaving the “group”.

    Funny, I continue to have empathy and care for scientologists – even more so for those that I knew and know personally. And, although it’s a one way flow, empathy isn’t something that I will ever discard again.

    So, I admire your ability to see through and apply what I have struggled with. I have chosen to “throw the baby out with the bathwater”, set the tech aside, because I wouldn’t I want to associate or been known as an associate of such a group, and because I feeel empathy and such was more important than a technology that I see as deficient without same.

    Thanks again. ❤

  8. I will add that I think that empathy is part of what makes the difference in auditing/auditors.

  9. Marty, thanks for this post.

    In case some of you haven’t heard, there’s a wonderful concept in Scientology called ‘Training Routine Two’ (TR2). It’s sometimes called acknowledging. It goes like this:

    TR2: (1) Somebody says something. (2) You say: Thank you. Got it. Wow. Fine. Thanks. Alrighty. Gotcha. Or something like that.

    Or there’s this other thing you could do: (1) Somebody says something. (2) You say: You f***ing SP! That’s not standard! That’s not Scientology! You’re not a Scientologist! You’re a f***ing asshole! That’s stupid! That’s so wrong! You’ve got your head up your ass! That’s off-source, off-policy, off-LRH, off-the-wall! Show me where LRH said that! Or something like that.

    The next thing that happens is … your choice, my choice, our choice.

    Just Me

    P.S. There are other Training Routines, too. We might all want to read about ’em or review ’em. Occasionally, when used quite naturally, they enhance a little thing called ‘communication.’ I’m especially fond of one called TR-0.

  10. Spanky, little excerpt from a mail I got from Dan Koon regarding “why does Science of Survival no longer have this full list of people that he says helped him (look in the “new” books for other people he acknowledged!):

    Dan Koon wrote to me: DM has engaged in a campaign to delete any name associated with LRH. He expunged them from HCOBs and, as you’ve pointed out at the beginning of SOS, from books. He’s a bit crazy on the subject of being an only-one. He’s the only one who can get work done. He’s the only one who can save the day, etc., etc.

  11. Empathy. Sorely lacking in the organized Church of Scientology community because it is discouraged as being rewarding a downstat.

  12. Samuel, that was Thok Sondegaard, a great guy, very funny, very talented. There were some films made at Saint Hill featuring his animation in the 1960s.

    Marty – fascinating. One of my joys in leaving organized Scientology was finding the freedom to think and read and explore again. There is a danger in thinking that one has all the answers, and that is ceasing to think or search or learn. A subject can fossilize if people do not continue to search and learn and research.

    I was struck by his idea that “there is no empathy in heaven.” One of the tragedies of Scientology is the loss of empathy and compassion at its highest levels, the idea that one is “above it all.” None of us are above it all – we all share the same planet and the same existential plight, if you will. Thanks for posting.

  13. A good text, Marty. Sometimes researchers “discover” a subject LRH had mentioned earlier and bring it into mainstream science. And then everyone agrees with it, because now it is scientific lore.

    Example : cellular memories. Mentioned in 1950 in the Dianetics book.

    By now researchers have found that these memories can move to another person, e.g. by means of a heart transplant. Habits and memories of the dead donor can get transferred to the recipient of the heart.

  14. Yes the clip says there is no emphathy in heaven and surely being in the Cof$ constitutes being in heaven.

  15. martyrathbun09

    And we are especially fond of you, Just Me.


    What does that teach you ? Either you stand by and watch Science (Study of) pass you lot by, you jump into it and contribute. The “church”will never do that. In a sense they fart on progress. Parked in religion mode scientology offers the world nothing but dogmas. Not that I like the man, but your founder did research. I may mock his tomatoes but even that is science.

    What is the Internet ? A web. What does a web have ? links. Well people time to LINK up with the world even with the Sciences. Do you want to be relevant or do you want to dissapear in history ? Communicate.

    Research and Devellop, CD

  17. Thanks Jeff for the Name!!

  18. I only strongly object to someone trying to stop or impede the practice of Scientology, which some are doing. I dont object to people disagreeing with LRH and Scientology or not being “into it”.

    I do object to people harassing, discriminating against, mocking or belittling me because I am a Scientologist, but thats just the ARC triangle.
    I have a right to object to that.
    I think Scientologists should not forget the chart of human evaluation too.
    It tells you who’s really on your side and how honest they are as to their motives and communications.

    I have this idea that LRH has been trying to get a job done here for a very long time.
    A body and earth beingness has such a short time span that he had to operate at a speed that is not comprehensible to most people.
    He didnt have time for group agreement or the approval of professors or the intellectual elite.
    Until enough charge is cleared off the fourth dynamic for enough people, I dont think Scientology even apart from the Church will have widespread public acceptance. LRH covered why this is a number of times in lectures and writings.

    I think what the Church does so far as PR, could actually be designed to feed this reactive response in humans to attack something like Scientology.
    It’s been said that the Church “creates enemies”. Thats true, but why? I’m pretty sure they know how to not do that, so why are they creating enemies and stirring up the fourth dynamic to attack the church. Isn’t that whats going on?

  19. I Couldn’t view the video, as I am in a corner of the world where we only SOMETIMES have enough bandwidth to even do email!

    I’ll assume the video was about some guy relating concepts that would be very familiar to Scientologists from Scientology info dating WAY back.

    Well – LRH got out there a few centuries ahead of mainstream earth sciences. It’s hard for me to get interested in anyone or any one institution which independently discovers some fragment of the master subject of Scientology. It doesn’t make me CRITICAL of any given accomplishment, just bored. For example, science has not even discovered the THETAN yet. What should I do? wait breathlessly for science to finally dig this up 300 years from now? Break into wild applause when they finally DO discover that the core individual is an immortal spiritual being?

    I just thank my lucky stars that science does NOT know about the Thetan, otherwise this scientific principle would be used against us – if thetans could be made visible by earth instrumentation, we would all be enslaved, as each thetan has a colorful manifestation that is far more unique than any fingerprint – those whose perception is up enough to SEE thetans know what I’m talking about.

    Let sleeping “science” lag, I say! We need the break! I, for one, am not panting to see Scientology validated by earth science. The longer they laugh and scoff, the better the chance we have to succeed. Laugh it all off as a “nutty religion”….PLEASE!

  20. Marty,” There’s stuff happening in the theta universe methinks.”
    I agree. Because of this blog, barriers that thetans normally put up for defense are being taken down and I’m sure others feel it. I sure can.
    Its A-R-C . Simple yet so profound. We are all becoming more open to other viewpoints and willing to share, to communicate and the Love is very special. You’re an amazing being my friend and I love you.

  21. Fantastic video Marty —

    Very sadly the world IS leaving Scientology behind. Or at least part of the world.

    We are going to be finding ourselves in the ensueing next few years becoming more and more polarized. The neutral grey beliefs, the hiding behind a phony smile, the “oh I don’t know” answers, are going to be a thing of the past.

    It is becoming — 1) those light beings who stand IN the light and work to bring others TO the light versus 2) those who refuse to SEE the light and those who decide everyone not of their side is THE DEVIL (or a psych or a priest etc)

    It is going to become more and more clear. Easier to discern who is where by what they are REFUSING to see or hear.

    Those scientologist and sadly those independent scientologist who cannot or will not read, discover, community and INTEGRATE — will disintegrate.

    BTW — if anyone is interested is someone who is FABULOUS – and considered a modern day philosopher — get the 10 CD set of Ken Wilber –
    Kosmic Consciousness. Ken is all about — INTEGRAL. He’s written many many book, has a website but I find his books quite difficult to read.

    Someday I’m hoping Marty, Glenn, Jim Logan, Mike and others will sit on a symposium with other FANTASTIC world leaders and share the wisdom of LRH — so LRH can have his rightful spot IN the world.

    I’m thinking this is a definite possibility. LRH tech has a great deal to bring to the world and to the various wisdom traditions.


  22. martyrathbun09

    WH, thanks for another installment your never ending posts of wisdom. I will be doing another recommended reading post soon featuring Ken Wilbur’s A Brief History of Everything. Incredibly insightful thinker who can really expand one’s horizons.

  23. Well if you want to repeat this 1954 folder for a billion years, go ahead. Your words come over as snobbistish and embellished. Get of my planet allien spirit. Us earth spirits want our planet back. No green-card for you !

    For the love of Satan

  24. Thanks Marty, great post. I have seen the list of authors Ron gives credit to in SOS, and now will have time to read some of them as well. It’s ALL about education of self as a being, even enjoying a party or having an argument can be educational.

  25. Just Me, Hello, I second that. I am especially fond of you!

  26. Thank you so much for posting this, Marty. This video demonstrates the precise reason why I, too, had to leave Scientology in the dust. No love, no compassion, no empathy. I realized I was involved with a group that was going against my basic nature! For example, here is an actual conversation my sister had on the phone with her supervisor:

    Sister: (crying) I’m not going to be able to come in to course this week. My father just died.

    Sup: So, when are you going to come in and make up the time?

    This little exchange symbolizes what the group has become. A psychotic, stat-driven juggernaut, completely unable to “grok” human suffering.

    When I saw the wonderful post yesterday from Glenn Samuels (talk about empathy!), it reminded me of a different time – when I was a child growing up in the 70’s in San Francisco in Scientology. Things were still pretty rough and tumble, yet there was a basic intention to really help people and most certainly, a great deal of empathy and caring. People were really working to help one another and they got immense JOY from doing so. So, these two posts, side-by-side, were really extraordinarily wonderful for me. Thank you.

  27. WH, beautifully and truthfully stated.

  28. This is evolution -theta mest theory-. When applied to the concepts of Scientology, you will have a different Scientology and a better one in a thousand years.
    Evolution never stops, only the C.O.S will stop and deny any new discoveries.
    If you look at its modus operandi, its already 20 years behind our civilisation, if you only think about big factories to print CD’s in the age of unlimited data storage facilities.
    Ideas can just float through space and time. Lhr ideas are doing it, as they all have been published and people are reading them. New people will come with better ideas, even if the C.O.S is fighting any self determined thoughts. It has no real power on this planet. It’s influence is very miniscule.
    Lrh did his Job and is still doing it. Not david miscavige with his narrow thinking.
    Quantum physics has already found out that certain physical phenoma only exist if there is a viewpoint to observe them (thus create them) and is puzzled about it. Soon they gonna discover the spiritual being, but they ^ll not make a new religion .
    The whole Knowledge of scientology should be, and I know it will be, published onto the Internet for free, so that anybody can use it. It belongs to mankind and nobody else. Everybody would be free to use it as it fits to their needs. No control of how it will be used.
    This would be an injection of theta into our civilisation that would be gargantuan, as anytime people will find out how useful that knowledge is and will dream up and develop new applications for it, or perhaps even new discoveries about the reactive mind will be achieved.
    Great advances for mankind have alsways been achieved by people that don’t agree with the status quo and were looking for better ways of doing things. And we all don’t agree with the church and are moving up a little bit higher to find new ways.
    In KSW LRH was talking about the mob, about the group agreeing on bank principles, he never said that a group of INDIVIDUALS can’t achieve something or create new things. And we are a group of individuals (Ots).
    The evolution of mankind was achieved through individuals that were part of groups of people having similar ideas. The ideas of Lrh were thought by hundreds of people before him. He was the top of this evolution. And new tops will appear in the future. David Miscavige will just be a short footnote in history.
    Scientology is a tool to achieve knowledge. The church thinks the only worthy knowledge is Scientology and the knowledge of how to make money. Lrh never intended that. With Scientology used as a tool you can achieve knowledge of the whole spectrum of our universe and when intelligently applied you can resolve all the problems of mankind. You can apply it to any subject that exist under the moon and stars and discover and develop new technology that will advance our civilisation. IT’s not about beautiful buildings and teaching people how they have to think and behave. We are over that.
    Thanks Marty for telling us about your advancements as a human being.

  29. Marty, thanks for the post and the video. I to say, wake-up, read, investigate, discover and communicate, before it is to late.

  30. Great post Marty! And I love the comments from all the guys. I won’t miss this blog!

    David F

  31. That’s true that when leaving the church some just want to continue to work the same old ways they were teached. It could be laziness or lack of intellingence, but I think one of the main reason is interest. Interest in new things, in discovery, other viewpoints and interest acroos all the dynamics. One remedy is, and you Marty are apllying it to the fullest, to read and discover other viewpoints and new ideas. It’s that what we really need.

  32. Wow – here’s a case where I find myself in profound disagreement with the majority of posters. The truth is, Scientology and True Scientologists left the WORLD behind many years ago, NOT vice versa. Miscavige’s primitive tribe of oafs, louts and losers is another story, they have more or less funneled themselves into a useless bywater.

    Scientology principles and practices are so far in advance of “modern technology” that I can barely stifle my yawn(s) when reading about the “latest advances in the humanities”. Am I alone in this? Sometimes I feel like the only guy that ever caught a piece of true OT, a very lonely feeling. I pray that I am mistaken.

    Even the humble principle of the IMPORTANCE of a misunderstood word! Jeez, even in a society that provides EXCELLENT dictionaries this fact may as well be a “secret weapon”. Even self-described “Scientologists” themselves have barely grasped this principle – look at Tom Cruise glibly telling Matt Lauer that Matt was “glib”!

    Sorry – can’t buy it……the world will eventually catch up to the master subject of Scientology.

    Truth never gets left behind, it only LEADS.

  33. That confirms my earlier comment to a friend of mine —

    Marty is a screaming genius. For many reasons, and now because you were able to read “A Brief History of Everything.” — wow.

    I’m only able to listen to his 10 CD set … it’s very down to earth.

    I went to a 3 day lecture with Ken and Traleg Rinpoche followed by a party and book signing with Ken – for his book Integral Religion.

    When the day comes — and I come out from under the radar I think my photos will be 1) Me and Yvonne on my first wedding day (1972) and 2) Ken Wilbur and me at his book signing 2007

    I look forward to that day!!


  34. Run your gibberish through a spell checker at least!

    And your case level is……..(halfway through ARC SW?)

  35. Absolutely. Suppression is lifting off, and what is great about what you are doing here, is that we are able to discuss what we learned, and, dare I say it, extend it.

    I have been able to discuss the technical side of Scientology with very few people, because the answer officially has been “what does your material state?” and “If it isn’t written, it isn’t true.” And I get that! When you are on course, you need to learn the materials as written. And, I understand the dilemma of KSW, in which Collective Thought Agreement many times will forward and agree with destructive ideas vs. constructive ideas. Beings without banks have different responses (and how true is that! Overlooked by the current regime).

    But. I have this image of the perfect way forward in Scientology 2.0 like where the rabbis argue about the Talmud. “Ben! You are wrong! Look at this section here.” “Abe! No! You are overlooking that section there!”

    Open and free communication is the way, and it sure is resonating. Great to be here!

  36. The wonderful video Marty posted supports the work being done in the field of epigenetic (above the genes) biology, a primary researcher of which is Bruce Lipton. The guy started out as a hard science guy and one discovery led to the next and today he is firmly in the realm of theta energy. His lecture series The Wisdom of Your Cells tracks how he got from MEST (genes control everything) to Theta (your intention creates everything) and scientifically validates many, many, many of LRH’s research discoveries 50 – 60 years after LRH first announced them. Very worthwhile series of lectures.

    He makes the same point in this video: cooperation, not competition is the basis of all progress. It was single cell organisms cooperating that allowed their genetic information to be shared by all cells in the colony. A single cell on this planet can only grow so large, like a water balloon, before the membrane bursts. Therefore the amount of information capable of being stored in one cell is limited. When cells cooperated, the information was available to everybody. Of course, it goes beyond cells and into thought, but he began with cells in a petri dish.

  37. Independent Scientologist

    Excellent advice.

    But tough to follow, after decades in the church.

    Scientologists are definitely programmed to be contemptuous of anybody else’s research and findings, on a variety of topics: mental health, spirituality, business administration, etc. etc.

    You would think the awful state of the church we had to leave would instill in us some humility.

    Ron Matlock

  38. Vic,
    I agree whole-heartedly with your statement. I’ve had many “perfect” highly trained auditors whose affinity and reality were manufactured, rather than genuine. No real empathy.

    In contrast, I’ve had a precious few, who would flunk a chant at the wall test, but whose empathy and genuine ARC were so high they could as-is a fifty foot thick wall of granite.

    The difference between the former and the latter was like the difference between dirt and ice cream.

  39. Just out of curiosity about you, why do you mock the research L. Ron Hubbard did with tomato plants?

  40. I highly recommend differentiating between the MALPRACTICE of Scientology versus CORRECT practice. The “Scientology” you seem to protest against?

    It ain’t Scientology.

    You probably haven’t been around Scientology for 40 years as I have. I have witnessed a PARADE of dumb-asses, little tin gods that couldn’t even define the word Scientology without a comm lag, who nonetheless were the self-appointed “guardians of the tech”. Getting AROUND such crude oafs was part of the picture of getting to the top of the current Bridge.

    An unbelievably cynical “saying” amongst Flag Regs and Flag FSMs? “You’re as OT as you can get through the lines”.

    I will not have Scientology opined upon by high school dropouts, and “PC-only” type Scientologists. Try being on staff for at least half a decade. Try working in an HGC and a Qual for some years.

  41. This video echos a huge cognition I had on the 4th Dynamic (Mankind) a few years ago. I have always had a bit of confusion between what the 3rd Dynamic (groups), and the 4th. The 3rd is groups, and the 4th is just one large group. Why are there two?

    It does come down to empathy – granting beingness, ARC. The difference between the 3rd dynamic and the 4th dynamic is:

    The 3rd dynamic is survival through groups you are part of.

    The 4th dynamic is survival through everyone else – members of groups you are NOT part of.

    In other words, I am not a Mormon. Yet, I have many friends who are, and who are genuinely (and I mean genuinely) good people, doing good for the world. This is not a zero-sum game. I am perfectly okay for Mormons to continue their mission, even though I am not myself a Mormon.

    The same is true of this video by Jeremy Rifkin. I am not a “follower” of Rifkin. But, this message is a great one, and should be understood, and absorbed into our world view. We need to know that we are all in the same journey, on the same whirling orb.

    Same is true of other groups that have a true humanitarian mission and practice. The same is true of anyone who is trying to survive and do well in the world, but for whatever reason is not part of my team.

  42. Great comments – very insightful.

    Should there be anyone with a different view who feels he shouldn’t or “isn’t supposed” to comment or is afraid he might get “squashed” – please re-read Glenn Samuels post about “Thought stopping and filtering”. It ties right in with this one.

    It is also OK to have a different view. Isn’t there something exciting about truly hashing something out with pashion and ARC?

    I guess (civilly) “speaking up” is also an attribute that got lost … I mean, squashed, in that tyranny called C of M.

    This is a different place!

  43. Hi to Suzanne,
    I was staff in SF in the mid ’70’s. When were you there, and who are your parents– were they staff or public? Well, if you don’t want to post all that, give me their first names and the time you guys were there, only if you want. I just love to hook up with people from that time. It was a special time for Scientology. Ron gave us orders and was on the scene. Our stats at that Org, at that time, kicked ass on ANYTHING that compares to now, and we had a fucked up looking buidling seperated by 3 floors. As you remember, the only way to know we were there was to be brought in by a friend, or to be body routed as we had no visibility. As staff we still had our fun, but the pressure and the intention was soley on getting people on staff and getting people on course with no other distraction. Thus, the intention was on the correct goal and the regging was soley to get the guy onto the next course into the Academy to be an auditor! The org, in my estimation from my experience, was never exactly “warm and fuzzy” and God help you if you wanted time off for anything or if anyone got ill, it was tough beans. Nothing mattered but your post. So, it was hard line, but you could always write to LRH or telex him and get a warm response and he would always have your back if you were in the right. He cared about the welfare of staff and did what he could on that line. Now we have Hitler et al.

  44. Thought Provoking

    If one simply looks at the factors and the cycle of action one can realize that things evolve and if one stops creating in this evolutionary process they will succumb. The church has discontinued the technology of Scientology and is now succumbing. So many barriers have been put up that it has become more of a mystery than a religion.

    Technology has greatly evolved since LRH passed but I am sure that he would have embraced the internet if he had known about it. He would be the first to admit that there could be more to learn but made it known that he developed a workable tech, one that personal experience has proven to be true in my own mind. When I see others expressing factors that are real to my understandings of life, it makes me smile, knowing that universally my dynamics have expanded a bit. I have my stable datums from LRH and recognize him as source but I can also spot ARC in my environment and not feel it as a threat.

    For me it is a simple matter of reach and withdraw. When I don’t look, my space diminishes, gets more solid and stuck. When I look, I extend my anchor points, my space gets bigger and my power of choice expands. “Look” is very high on the tone scale and as a spiritual being I prefer not limiting myself.

  45. martyrathbun09

    I’m really starting to dig you Samuel.

  46. Jeff, I was struck by the “No Empathy in Heaven” statement as well. I understand why the statement was made. Where there is no suffering, why should there be empathy? But of course, heaven as a place is its own fiction. By that I mean, until all suffering everywhere is eliminated, there can be no real heaven anywhere. Because of this, perfect consciousness (real tone 40, anyone), would be total ARC and total empathy. I have found that I have become much more empathetic as I have journeyed up the bridge, and I know others that have as well.

  47. martyrathbun09

    Fantastic differentiation OTDT.

  48. Yep, there’s closed-minded group-think in all fields. I once heard a BBC radio presenter interview a scientist who had been conducting research into out of body experiences in hospitals. The scientist said the findings were really very interesting and warranted further investigation. The interviewer asked some questions and listened politely then at the end of the interview said ‘fascinating, but this can’t be anything to do with spirits can it, you’re not saying that of course’ He was Oxford educated but in his world this was an impossibility, never mind the thought-provocing data.

  49. martyrathbun09

    Great to have you here, really.

  50. martyrathbun09

    Come on, don’t kick the Cat.

  51. Right on Marty!

    Scientology wouldn’t have been left in the dust this past quarter of a century if its leader had espoused the very sentiments detailed in this video and if the C of S had acted for the true benefit of mankind instead of using LRH’s tech for its two narrow minded and perverted purposes: The amassing of money and the attempt to increase cult membership, hell the C of S wouldn’t even be considered a cult if they’d really and truly worked for the greater good.

    I’ve been talking to some business men lately who had the misfortune to find themselves on the cult’s WISE lines. They have paid many thousands of dollars to WISE for only basic courses while real help was denied them and their businesses continued to suffer. Its clear WISE’s real intention is to get them into the cult and then extract even greater sums from them, which intention is hammered down from the top.

    This narrow view is a total conflict of interest on the part of WISE (financial welfare of the businesses concerned versus boosting the C of S’s coffers) and is the opposite of LRH’s stated purpose of getting his admin tech out there as a huge help flow to mankind. WISE has been contorted into being just a feeder line into the cult, a far cry from what LRH intended.

    Of course I found these business men to be a joy to deal with and incredibly open to help when offered freely and with no cult strings attached.

  52. martyrathbun09

    WH, don’t jump to conclusions. I’m half way through and struggling. This cat has done some serious research and I’m having to word clear like a mofo. But, talk about ability to get someone to take a holistic view of the universe and existence. Integral, particularly for Scientologists, in my opinion.

  53. Thanks for the laugh, Marty…I needed that!

  54. martyrathbun09

    And I believe that attitude will make (and is making) your postulate impossible to attain.

  55. Father of Cats,
    Don’t be such an arrogant knucklehead, insulting people who are expressing their opinion and viewpoint. They have a right to do so without you calling them snobbish and accusing them of embellishing. You personally have not one tiny speck of personal experience in Scientology, do you? What are you here for anyway, as some force of counter-balance? What unbelievable snide arrogance you must have to assume that you have the right to rebuke OT VIII for his opinion. When you’re not busy kissing Marty’s ass, pretending to be a harmless, benign mascot, are you calculating ways to throw digs in on people when you feel you can get away with it?

    I’ll respect your right to communicate but if you break the social boundaries with insults and ignorant arrogance, expect to receive MY opinion in return. Or am I not being empathetic enough about your condition?

  56. martyrathbun09

    I think you’ve sold the Cat’s intentions far short.

  57. Elvis Presley’s summation of the church of Scientology was, “All head, no heart.”

  58. Thanks for your 70s-staffer viewpoint….very refreshing. My hat is off to you.

  59. Jewel, Maybe this is after you were there but in 1981 or 2 I was working as what I call a ‘rover’. I floated around doing things to back up LRH. One thing that he wanted was a picture of the new sign at SF Org. I drove to SF and stayed at a best Western motel a few blocks from SF Org. I got up at 5 am and took a polaroid camera I bought and walked to SF Org.
    I took lots of pics of the sign from various angles. No one was around and I bet you didn’t even know Sarge was there. Had my first ‘Buffalo’ burger too. Love.

  60. That’s a generality, un-sourced, inapplicable (since what are Elvis’ street creds as a philosopher)…….hmmmmm….have I run out of outpoints?

    I don’t drink my philosophy straight from the bottle of a hillbilly who died of drug abuse.

    Does the “DT” stand for “Delirium Tremens”?

  61. I’m feeling it too. A weight lifted.

  62. The parts (areas, individuals, groups, ideas, research) of “the world” that learn, grow, change, and evolve left organized Scientology behind when the subject was locked down as inviolate.

    What a terrific video. Thanks for sharing it, Marty.

  63. Thought Provoking

    That was a great analogy for the 3rd and 4th dynamics.

  64. Dan, Years ago I read a book called ‘Lives of a cell’. In the book the premise was that the mitochondria of cells are seperate living aware
    entities. They decode DNA and comunicate with other cells. Interesting.

  65. Dear OTVIII,

    Good, thanks, gotcha, geewillikers, sweet Mary, Mother of Joseph, got it!

    Now, here’s a question for you: How’s that dissemination drill of yours working out — the one with put-downs and assumptions about people’s educational and Scientology training and auditing backgrounds and Co$ ‘ethics’ and regging experiences — to get them interested even the least little bit in joining ‘your’ Scientology, the one that’s the right one, not the wrong one?

    How’s that working out? Many takers there?

    Just Me

  66. What’s your point, Cat Daddy?

  67. I think I’ve “gotcha” on this one, Marty.

    I have heretofore (on this site) been in general agreement with your drift, but in this major case I have to firmly advocate the seniority of Scientology data and principles.

    I don’t even LIKE L. Ron Hubbard, and would not want him as a close friend, much less an associate, but I nonetheless respect what he discovered, as much as I dislike his personal conduct (particularly his conduct vis-a-vis his immediate family).

    I can’t like a man that doesn’t back up his own family to the MAX. I have children – no way would I leave them in the lurch like Ron did. Indeed – I have not. Also – letting his own wife take the rap! Letting your own wife do prison time for your OWN deeds? Sorry – not honorable.

    Letting a third class twerp like Miscavige dump on the mother of your own children? Sorry – can’t buy it.

    Even Sun Myung Moon did his OWN time.

    Sometimes, some first class work is done by a first class son of a bitch.

    LRH is a good bad example.

  68. So, let me get this straight; are you saying that Cat Daddy is in some way inferior to you by virtue of his case level?

    I know ‘wogs’ who have never set foot in the church behave in a far more OT manner than people who have made it all the way to the top levels on the Bridge.

    OT is as OT does, not as a certificate says.

    You should actually watch the video Marty posted. It’s about empathy (not superiority).

    Cat Daddy – Didn’t know you were doing ARC SW ! Hope you are having great wins. Continue!

  69. The question: “Do plants feel pain” always seemed ridiculous to me. It still does. But on another level or from another viewpoint all research is valuable. I remember as a child seeing the question:Do plants feel pain uttered on TV and untill this day I can’t keep a straight face. The immediate question I had as a child and have still after such question is: Haven’t we enough on our plate than worry about the feelings of plants.

    I am aware of the fact that plants produce substances not disimular too substances our bodies pruduce when expieriencing pain. I do not think they feel pain as we do though.

    This research alsoo has taken place in the “wog” world A LOT. It is just one of those things that make me go: Can’t you find other things to research.

    Monday, January 15, 2007
    Mythbusters prove plants feel pain?

    What I ask you is Why did Mythbusters never heared of Hubbards research on it. 😉

  70. DFB,
    You have a right to object to people making fun of you for being a Scientologist, but what does that get you? You have an objection to them. Great… acknowledge it and move on.
    You make an interesting point about LRH and the time he had, needed to get on with work and not dwindle on “agreement.” What why he asked us to do what? KSW: Keep Scienology Working. What is Scientology? Knowing how to know.
    Become an Auditor… and Audit.
    If we’re hung up on someone’s opinion of us, what we do, how we talk, who we are with, when and why, then we’re not in-session are we?
    If we are doing anything else than learning how to audit, or auditing, then we’re really kinda missing the boat.
    Imagine if every Independent in the world were co-auditing tomorrow. Screw the internet, blogs, CoS, and everything else… let’s just all start co-auditing tomorrow. Imagine how many people are going to be happier for it? Now, do that day after day. Do you think people around us will start asking questions? “why the hell are you so happy these days?”

    Word of mouth spreads. Some percentage of people hear, become interested and join in. More co-auditing is happening… and it grows.

    CoS and DM have SO freaking over complicated everything. EVERYTHING! How long ago did Ron come up with KTL/LOC? Super Power? Anything and everything else? He / We had is all over twentry freaking years ago!!! MORE! And still there are “new releases?” Things not yet released?

    Back up. Go back to basics. Learn to Audit… and Audit. Read about Ron’s opinion of Auditors and the respect he had for them. AUDITORS AUDITING are what this whole show is about. The rest is just … well, nothing else matters. Creates enemies? Who cares, that’s their game. Go audit.
    Just something to think about… aka my 2 cents.

  71. I was staff at SFO for much of the 70’s (I used to watch and catch baby (I do know the name) Whalin trying to climb the stairs between the 4th and 6th floors. Leslie had her kids there at times, too.) I went into the SO from SFO – only to return once on mission – but have never lost my love for SFO, the people, the times, the intents, etc. There are a lot of people there I have looked for over the years. Perhaps we know each other, or perhaps I know your parents…
    Another benefit from Marty’s blog. 🙂

  72. Marty
    Brilliant post. Thank you for sharing this video. Knowledge – all knowledge – is a beautiful thing.

  73. Thanks Dan & Marty,

    For expanding horizons and shedding those horse blinders.

  74. Thanks for being Human OTDT :). Thank you for your reply and food for thought. you are a beautiful being. You are absolutely right it was a harsh comment.

    My purpose is to create thought and to show other avenues of thinking and help in my own small way to get the Cof$ implode faster.

    Peace, CD

  75. one of those who see

    Great post Marty! LRH lived in the world, met all kinds of people, was extremely well read – obviously. The fact that some Scientologists have become closed off to the world and out of ARC with non-Scientologists is another bizzare out point. And in my opinion greatly curtails their happiness. You also outlined another example of thought stopping. “It’s not Scientology so can’t look, can’t listen, can’t think with it – not ok.”
    I never accepted that closed off viewpoint. I love the world and it’s people too much. Maybe that’s why i always tended to help in Div 6 activities.
    Having said that, I would get nervous listening to someone in the Psychology field-I would feel like I was doing something that wasn’t ok. Ya know-I would get a twinge.
    Scientology will spread through ARC. Affinity, Reality & Communication-really comes down to the basics. With the reverse you get the present state of the Church.
    I also have to say once again that the intelligent conversations on this blog are absolutely wonderful.
    To Grasshopper who said “But I have this image of the perfect way forward in Scientology 2.0 like where the rabbis argue about the Talmud. “Ben! You are wrong! Look at this section here.” “Abe! No! You are overlooking that section there!”
    LOVE THIS!!!! I was just using this as an example the other day when talking with a friend.

  76. Marty,
    you are correct. This has been a bug with me for years. As an educator, and a Scientologist, I learned to see the truth where it exists, and find alignment rather than creating a ridge. I read and listen to everything that interests me and I don’t give a rats ass where it comes from or who says it. If a psychologist says something that is right on , then so be it. I don’t censor my own mind or curiosity, but many (too many) Scientologist do just that. They save the church the trouble by being their own thought police!
    The first barrier to learning ( not the first barrier to study) is to think one knows it all. Scientology is suppoosed to be about knowing HOW to know. That does not only apply to Scientology courses etc. There is much truth out there and I was pleased, years ago, to discover in my class and text book, all about what cells can retain, and how a pregnant mother, from the moment of conception has her emotional state transcribed onto the cell and from that moment on the recording continues through birth. The mental and physical health of the child starts from previous generations etc etc. and so it is with the father. They are talking emotions transcribed on cells being passed down. You get the idea.
    There is also an awesome book by Gardner called the Multiple Intelligences. The original book is a big fat one which goes into brain theory.
    Long theory short, it is awesome workable data which works to help give mass and helps to make a subject more real to a student. Instead of reading the brain bla bla bla, I subsitute (when approriate) the thetan. Some people learn better through their auditory sense and others learn better though Kinesthetics etc. It works beautifully with what I know already in Dianetics, study tech, and teaching. I can easily say that if you want a kid who is also a budding musician to be interested in what you are teaching, then using music (no matter what the subject) is almost too obvious. Making students in school only study words on a page when they are already possibly mu’d to death, is boring and asking for trouble. Yet, so many APS schools (the ones I have seen) just give the kids work books and have them look up words all day. They are totally missing the subject of teaching.
    Scientology is light years above and beyond any religion when it comes to increasing ones awareness in a short period of time. Any OT has got to know that. Aside from that, knowing the Barriers to Study, knowing that Niacin attracts toxins, and knowing the condition formulas, does not make one a full blown expert in education, drug rehab, or business. When we come into a field touting a “know it all attitude”and try to take over, we are meant with the appropriate responses. What if someone came into a Scientology Org (when Ron was in charge) and tried to say that we weren’t doing it right and that he/she knew better? Acadademics and scientist need to be communicated to on their terms using words and methods they can duplicate. Scientology and Dianetics as subjects have no proof to show these groups anything that they would accept on terms. Then again, why would they listen to anything from a ‘religion” anyway. “Testimonials” are not acceptable. If Dianetics had been subjected to standard scientific experimentation and written in the acceptable format, as clinical psychologist do, or had other scientific proof, the paper might have been taken seriously: if not then, now.
    So I agree, if we have higher knowledge and stuff to contribute, then we do it as professionals in that field- not as arrogant religous fanatics trying to push an agenda. I can say that when I gave a demo of the nerve assists to a bunch of massage therapist, they loved it. When I gave a small seminar on the study tech , which included a teacher, she loved it. I have had nothing but postive response when I casually offer something iteresting and useful. It was simply offered with the attitude of helping (without the hyperbolic shit of “This is an amazing 20th Century bla bla bla from the wonderful Humanitarian LRHubbard etc” no one cares about the pitch and it does turn people off!
    In The New Civilization Course, the bottom line (if I may paraphrase Ron and steal from Nike) is —JUST DO IT and you don’t even have to tell ’em its Scientology. Just help.— This is the course from which Scientology Zero springs.
    Just one thing about your phrase …”Integrate or Disinegrate” it is catchy and I got where your coming from , but it may not be the best way to state what you mean…if you think about it just as a phrase out of context, could be a little creepy. Your in a position, like it or not, to be quoted since you write articles for your website.
    But I hear ya loud and clear! Thanks for the posting. It obviously hit a nerve.

  77. Ouch.
    WTF dude?
    You will not have Scientology “opined upon” by anyone less than yourself? You don’t get out much, do you? LOL

    (I’m trying to find the humor or irony in your post. am not seeing it.)

  78. ‘What should I do? wait breathlessly for science to finally dig this up 300 years from now?”

    No you certainly should not. Action speak louder than words ;). Reach out to them. Seek them out instead of rejecting them. I must admit, I got triggered by the way you stated your opinion. I think it reminded me of people still in the church to be honest.

    Now I know it is just the way you state things and I will have to live with that even if it makes me cringe a bit. But in any case reach out.

    My apoligies. CD

  79. Aren’t you saying that Scientology and you are so ahead of the game that you no longer are interested in being in comm with the rest of the world (as it hasn’t achieved that level of knowledge yet)?

    I believe it’s on the PDC tapes (as practically “everything” is on these lectures – LOL) where LRH talks about the value of the most incredible super-fantastic process … it only has one flaw – it cannot be communicated so nobody can do it and so has absolutely no value. He considered having found a way to communicate the various concepts and data of Scientology a major breakthrough.

    Wouldn’t it be a great contribution to mankind to find a way to communicate a little bit of the knowledge that you now have from studying Scientology – in a way that the “world” could understand it?

    And wouldn’t that put you right back into comm with that world? It’s an interesting game and not always easy – which actually is part of the fun too. You know how Thetans are, they love a few problems and best if they can chose what that problem is.

  80. oops…i have typos and errors! i did’t proof my own damn entry. so now i’m not only an square peg and an independent, i’m a hypocrite as well. so be it.

  81. “You would think the awful state of the church we had to leave would instill in us some humility.”

    HUMILITY!? BLASPHEMER!! Who the hell do you… rah…rah..rah…

    LOL Right on, Ron. But I’m more humble than you, so you better get to work and catch up! Nyah nyah! 😉

  82. one of those who see

    Another thought. Living with Ridges, Must nots and Resisting etc… can’t be the way to freedom! Being free to read, learn and communicate one feels expansive. One’s anchor points are out and one has space.
    Just love you guys!

  83. “Man’s Primary Degradation is on the 4th dynamic.” – LRH

    AND (From The Book of Basics – The Axioms of S.O.P. 8-C)

    FUNDAMENTAL: The basic action of existence is duplication.

    LOGIC: All operating principles of life may be derived from duplication.

    AXIOM: Communication is as exact as it approaches duplication.

    AXIOM: Unwillingness to be cause is monitored by unwillingness to be

    AXIOM: Unwillingness to be an effect is monitored by unwillingness to

    AXIOM: An inability to remain in a geographical position brings about an
    unwillingness to duplicate.

    AXIOM: An enforced fixation in a geographical position brings about an
    unwillingness to duplicate.

    AXIOM: Inability to duplicate on any dynamic is the primary degeneration
    of the thetan.

    AXIOM: Perception depends upon duplication.

    AXIOM: Communication depends upon duplication.

    AXIOM: In the MEST universe, the single crime is duplication.

    FORMULA VIII: The primary ability and willingness of the thetan to
    duplicate must be rehabilitated by handling desires, enforcements
    and inhibitions relating to it on all dynamics.

    I think with just the above LRH data, we could change the world. In fact, I would go so far as to say we have, and are continuing to do so. As the above video illustrates so eloquently.

  84. And if you want to see the REALLY compassionate human side of Ken read: “Grace and Grit” … the true story of his 5 year journey to hell and back as his wife struggled with breast cancer and ultimately lost that fight.

    Guaranteed you will not be able to read without a good cry.

    It is without a doubt the most beautiful love story I’ve ever read. His wife – Treya speaks a great deal in this book as she journaled throughout her illness and asked Ken to please share her journal with the world.


  85. “I guess (civilly) “speaking up” is also an attribute that got lost … I mean, squashed, in that tyranny called C of M.”

    Right on. It goes back to that post earlier where someone commented on TR-2. Go to any Sea Org organization and you’ll hear all day long: “Got that” or “Got it” or some other terse “Ack.” I could never “civilly” speak up about that, but truly… who the hell talks like that? ONLY Scientolgists. And to me it is an acknowdlegement “potentially” without any ARC. You might as well speak out the sound,”Ack.”

    With good TRs, you can make the “Got it” work. Otherwise, you sound like a bot of DM’s trying to be “tone 40” and instead coming across as “indifferent.”

    Sorry… off on a tangent. Please carry on. 😉

  86. OT VIII,
    Here’s my opinion about the points you made.

    Yeah, the theoretical aspects of the philosophy of Scientology ARE way advanced over that of typical science and man’s general understanding of himself. However, this very fact has prompted the development of an exclusionary, superior attitude in radical adherents of the Church, limiting their ability to APPLY those higher level theoretical components to their fellow man and society in general in ways that would actually make manifest the Aims of Scientology.

    The APPLIED part of the philosophy of Scientology is an entirely different matter, requiring one to essentially leave the theories behind and to now deal with REALITY. A rejection of reality by ‘Scientologists’ just ARC breaks the general public and they tarnish the whole subject with a pissed off brush.

    It’s like Radical Church members are looking through a straw, one of those flavored straws, except it’s not vanilla or strawberry, it’s flavored with Rejection, Exclusion, Disconnection and Refusal to embrace parallel sciences and societal influences. Most people find those flavors unpalatable and want to spit them out. In my opinion, that’s why NO visible progress has been made in achieving the Aims of Scientology.

    The basic theories and protocols as put forth by LRH in the subject of Scientology are so powerful and wide-sweeping and the results one can attain can be so incredibly mind-boggling, it seems to develop an attitude in The Club that all other understandings outside the scope of THEIR religion is wrong, harmful, not worthy of attention, etc. That alone puts them out of ARC with THE REST OF THE WORLD. That’s the opposite of true Scientology’s purpose, isn’t it?

    The Church of Scientology expects its members to continue looking through those straws and colored glasses, ignoring or discounting the realities of others. They don their tuxes and gowns to ogle their diamond-studded plaques while living their lies of exalted status for saving mankind, their donations alone having earned them a royal bequeathment of title and entitlement from their mighty King. All the while, their church shrinking in size and effectiveness as the planet they think they are saving continues to deteriorate.

    Anyway, there’s my opinion.

  87. All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident.
    Arthur Schopenhauer
    German philosopher (1788 – 1860)

  88. What are the Cat’s intentions?

  89. Well, OTVIII, it may not be what scientology is but it is what scientologists by and large have become. And, this mean, lying, disconnected, holier-than-though beingness of a scientologist is created daily by scientologists and projected to the rest of the world. The world isn’t buying it anymore. And, it is getting harder and harder to get people to look at or into scientology, because they are revolted by it.

    Me – not a high school dropout, nor a pc-only scientologist. I was staff and SO for over a decade and a (good) Flag trained auditor and CS (and think that empathy and care and standard tech were why). I held high exec posts successfully. I still have laughs and pride for all the make-it-go-right I demonstrated AND am loved and valued at my current job for exactly the same reasons.

    I would say that for the most part that I can differentiate between scientology and scientologists – however, I no longer care to be associated as or with scientology – because of the arrogance, the make-wrong, the robotism, the holier-than-thou attitudes, etc. I let this go when I left.

    Your post makes me feel sad – sad that you’d say “I have witnessed a PARADE of dumb-asses, little tin gods that couldn’t even define the word Scientology without a comm lag, who nonetheless were the self-appointed “guardians of the tech”. Getting AROUND such crude oafs was part of the picture of getting to the top of the current Bridge.”

    What exactly is going on when this is what doing scientology is and when someone that is OT and presumably not just a pc-only scientologist makes a comment like this about staff members, fellow scientologists and the organization they support?

    I’m happy to see you here and posting!

    Thanks so much, Marty.

  90. OFF TOPIC: Lately I’ve gone to Steve Halls blog — and there are over 500 visitors viewing the site. This has happened several times.

    What I find really great about this is — there hasn’t been any new posts on his site for quite awhile. Leading me to believe that — people come here and then go to the other sites mentioned on Marty’s site.

    Just OBSERVING 🙂


  91. O8,
    As you state – you’ve not seen the video. All your comments, assumptions and kicking the Cat are based on something you haven’t seen? Isn’t this a bit of an outpoint?

  92. This is my favorite post on this blog. I couldn’t agree more. Thanks and VWD!

  93. Marty,
    This video in particular as well as all the RSAnimate videos are a really great find! It’s an expansive, higher level concept that seems to have the power of a planetary auditing command. The simplicity of the diagrams blew me away, too.

    This one video alone got over a half million hits, with many of the other RSA vids reporting one to two million hits. Most of the Church of Scientology YouTube channel videos only report hits in the range of three digits.

  94. Thank you Marty. Your posts are an integral part of my ongoing education. You help a lot as I was cacooned off for so many years.

  95. Hey Suzanne, we may know each other so if you’d like to find out if we do, give me a shout out at

  96. OT VIII, I think one aspect of Scientology ( and one of Ron’s most sweeping discoveries) you may want to learn a little more about (or a lot more about depending on your interest level) is the ARC Triangle. You might also want to review the theory of the Dynamics and work out for yourself how one would expand agreement (thus getting into more ARC) on the 3rd and 4th Dynamics.

  97. Probably the very same reason you got tapped to handle the super-VIPs and important cases. You get results because of your ability to apply the auditing communication cycle and can make the magic happen.

    When I was a consultant with a major Wise consultant company, I developed a reputation of magical results and routinely received rave accolades, such as “You handled for me in one day what Flag couldn’t even on the L’s I just did!” all because I knew and could apply the magic of the communication cycle. I wasn’t even really trying to handle their case. It almost made me feel like an imposter.

  98. This was a very important post by Marty. It isn’t that I agreed with everything on the video (the one lifetime etc) and YES, LRH did cover this basic theory within he broad subjects of ARC and the Dynamics.

    The point being that it is a GOOD thing (a VERY good thing) when intellectuals, scientists, etc find agreement with basic Scientology principles. This is EXACTLY what Ron wanted (see HCO B Cultural Lag).

  99. Thought Provoking

    There is a stat that reflects the church’s failing current membership in its truest sense and that is number of people reading the alternate Scientology sites.

    I just went to Steve’s site and there were 500 people on line…all at the same time! 🙂

  100. You know it’s interesting. The “Code of a Scientologist” invites (and implores) Scientologists to “stress the freedom to use Scientology as a philosophy in all its applications and variations in the humanities.”

    And there are even the “Scientology Zero – Five” levels written about in 1963 (see the Tech Dictionary) of reaching into society, in which the idea of “Scientology Five” is: “Scientology applied at a high echelon to social, political and scientific problems.”

    At some point, an “us vs. them” attitude crept into the CoS, and I think it took a dangerously sharp turn south in the early 1980s.

    But I think the original intent for Scientology’s broad application was meant to be embracive and integrative into society, much like we saw happen in the 1970s with folks like Hal Puthoff (SRI) and Frank Gerbode (metapsychology).

  101. I will also add something about the subject of “other data” (than Scientology). I have known many Scientologists who widely read beyond Scientology. We can usually correlate almost any other data with basic Scientology (or more esoteric Scientology as the case may be).

    But there actually ARE very interesting data other than Scientology. Just the theory of the KRC Triangle would demand that Scientologists read and listen widely of the world if for no other reason than to gain Knowledge so that they could take more responsibility for the world. I was waiting to see the MAA at ASHO a few years ago and (purposefully I must admit) while sitting there I pulled out a non LRH book and started reading. Within minutes a Sea Org member walked over to me and handed me a church mag and asked me to read that instead (didn’t tell me it was not OK to read a non LRH book in the church, but the intent was very clear).

    And re: this video, YES, it IS nice when the greater world starts to look at the subject of how the 3rd Dynamic can expand and how a 4th Dynamic can be created (even if it is explained in a more complex way than Ron explained it in 1950 and 1951). This is GOOD for the 4th Dynamic.

    And the subject that “dare not speak its name” (ha) – does LRH cover EVERYTHING? Is he ALWAYS COMPLETELY RIGHT? I watched a Charlie Rose show last week and the subject was how two extremely educated professors (from UCLA and Columbia and have just written books on this) handled their own schizophrenia and depression (respectively) with a combination of drugs and empathetic psychiatrists. The schizophrenic by the way had campaigned against psychiatric abuses as she was restrained for days at a time. The point being here that there ARE some successes in the psychiatric world. Both these women are convinced that they would have killed themselves without the help they got. So these drugs aren’t ALL bad ALL the time. And neither are psychiatrists in my opinion. Actually both these women seemed more positive about their experiences than most of the posters on this blog do about theirs. And I think there IS something to this whole “brain chemistry” thing. But even LRH touched on this in DMSMH when he talked about the reactive mind affecting glands and other phsyical functions. Many of these psychiatrists are just trying to help people.

    Again, my point being that there is political theory, hisory, science and many other interesting and enlightening things to study “out there.” I have given hundreds of lectures to wogs on the ARC Triangle (to great success) as well as on the Non existence Formula, Comm Formula and other LRH subjects. ALWAYS, ALWAYS, ALWAYS relating these subjects in a way that my audience could relate to (this is the reality corner of the triangle) – always within the context of THEIR universes – and you CANNOT understand other people’s universes if you are unwilling to study them or you close your mind to other viewpoints (and thus my currently traveling around the world and getting in comm with the cultures and peoples of this planet Earth).

  102. Fellow Traveller

    Just Me —

    Ah, yes. The true joys of life to be experienced by being just me, especially no service facsimiles.

    Thank you for this. I think lil’ ol’ me, just me, may be a bit better now.

    Bruce Pratt

  103. The world may well be leaving Scientology behind, but the world is beginning to embrace the things of which Scientology deals. Some of us have long noticed the communications recently occurring in the theta universe. Scientology is merely a manifestation of information that bridges the physical and theta universe. Windhorse is deeply involved in others who explore this information. Joe writes of epigenetic biology. So many researchers are looking into past life phenomenon and the theta universe. Awareness is increasing in many areas around the planet.

    Scientolgy may well have become so invidious that the organization dies. But, the subject that it treats will flourish. New names will be invented. The influence will carry forward. And the subject will re-emerge until we get it right.

    How many lifetimes that will take, I do not know. I’ve been chasing this bird for a long time. So have a lot of us. So have those in the theta universe who want us to have the information.


  104. Ron, great origination – I can relate to what you are saying however “from the other side” of that “valley”, i.e. I’m not “compulsive” on this anymore (LOL) – didn’t we get funny aberrations implanted?

    Little story to make my point:

    My woman never had anything to do with Scn and on top of it she once or twice a year attends something called Family Constellation (look it up in Wiki if you never heard of it). I didn’t bother to read up on the article and only tell you what my understanding is from what she told me (actual example, nothing invented):

    This was a while ago and she went to her place wanting to sort out a problem she had at work. Without me knowing, I was part of that problem because she was deeply concerned about my reaction should she ever tell me about her real situation at work.

    This is how this practice works: She told a group of people attending that she has a problem called “W” and there are person “1”, “2” , “3” and “4” involved (no names, no description of anything). Whoever thinks he or she should be “W” or “1” etc. gets up and does and talks whatever he thinks he should do in that “role” (it’s all “intuitive”, “what you feel inside you have to say or do” etc.)

    Sounds weird, doesn’t it.

    One of these numbers was “me” and another number was “her”. I have never been there and do not know anybody there. Without instructions they “played” the problem at her workplace and in that play the person “playing her” told “me” about the situation at work and in response “me” said certain words to her.

    When she came home she confronted to no longer pretend that “all is fine at work” and told me the real scene. And I responded WITH EXACTLY THE SAME WORDS used by the person who played “me” in that scene.

    It was a WOW Surprise to her and now she told me about it and I was INTERESTED in actually understanding what this is and how it works. Call it crap or what have you, but to me it resembles something like a live Clay Demo of sorts.

    What about the involvement of Theta? Isn’t that a deeper trust in Theta to “know” (without data) than what is exhibited in the run-of-the mill (or rather run-down) Scientologist? Not only Scientologists “have” a thetan they pick up just before going in session so they have something to audit!

    And whether or not it works all the time, it sure worked for her AND increased my UNDERSTANDING . I wholeheartedly validated the good things I saw in it – I don’t feel any urge to do it myself but I saw the benefits to her in several occasions. To make things worse, I later also met the Psychologist woman at a horse show that runs this group – and she was a NICE lady and we immediately became FRIENDS!

    Now, after *I* understood much better and have validated what she was doing, HER understanding and willingness to listen, shake off fixed ideas on Scientology etc. also INCREASED. She’s not a Scientologist but also validates things she considers are good in the philosophy (she definitely has no good word about DM and the org as it is – but then again, I have neither).

    Its Communication, its Understanding, its ARC. It’s a TWO-way process. Not a one-way-street INTO Scientology! God forbid. It’s like “Scientology is non-denominational” provided YOU become a Scientologists – and heaven forbid me becoming a Muslim, a believing Catholic etc. Doesn’t work. It’s a fake “power of choice” (AS PRACTICED – I’m not saying the statement itself is wrong).

    So, be brave and communicate with some “forbidden” things you “feel” you “have to” dislike – and see for yourself. I invite you to find something that you DO like about it, whatever that is. And see how your understanding, your power of choice comes up – and that is that much more freedom for you, buddy.

    “Scientologist” (I’m talking about the hard liners, the robots, the practiced and indoctrinated mentality) seem to be fixed on BEING Understood and the “WOGs” having to understand Scientology without the slightest effort on their part to understand that woggy WOG world (and if it doesn’t work with reason, we use some force!!).

    I predict you become a much better and truer Scientologist, certain of what you are certain without having to pretend a certainty where there is only uncertainty.

    Could I shake that up a little bit for you?

  105. Tony DePhillips

    I undertand what you are saying and don’t have a problem with it. We all have varying realities and not all will agree on anything. What we need more of is toerance of other views and not try to enforce realities on others. That is what the “church” is doing now. Instead of being a reflextion of intellectual philosophy the church acts like a priest from the Middle Ages and wants to burn at the stake any heretics.

  106. Precisely.

  107. Tony DePhillips

    Good one!!

  108. Tony DePhillips

    Nice video, really liked the animation.

    The way I see it is that the current culture in the church is to create an US vs THEM mentality. To me that is the opposite of what ARC is all about. If you know things that are useful and then someone else “discovers” something already known, you can ser fac on him and belittle him OR you can make him right and create ARC and help him to “discover” other things. If you include the other dynamics as it talks about in that video then your chances of survivng increase considerably. IMHO.

  109. I think you missed the point OTVIII. Literally. Having not seen the video and reactivly damning science.

    The point of the video being the common struggle of “man”.

    Yes science scoffs at what some of us intuitively or experientially know to be true in Scientology, but they ARE WORKING ON THE SAME PROBLEMS as we are, that Ron was, and that face us ALL.

    Science indeed HAS discovered “a thetan”. They call it consciousness. And have you heard of Kirlian photography? Auras are able to be rendered visible.

    “They” are looking at the same things we are, using different words, different access points (from thier experiential lineage), and seem to hold common goals; survival of man and our environment, increase in knowledge, and having a bit of fun.

    You say LRH got there decades before them, but LRH pays homage to philosphers and thinkers of prior ages, and in fact stands on their shoulders to some extent, as the culture he grew up in and did his work in is a product of them.

    Sad that you didn’t see the video. It was inspiring.

    I think an us vs them attitude is a dramatization of the fundemental lie of the universe, the dichotomy, the notion that one thing is true in opposition to another, when in fact all is true, depending on viewpoint. Consideration. A product of theta.

  110. I don’t know, but I’ve been told the Cat has been taking all manner of attacks on anti-Scn boards for trying to reason that independent Scientologists are not all the negative the public has associated with church Scientologists. And if that is true, I can put up with some Cat hijinks in exchange. To say the Cat hasn’t any intention to but to destroy the subject is demonstrably untrue.

  111. Well put

  112. Wayne Froemke (AKA "Safe")

    windhorse wrote, “BTW — if anyone is interested is someone who is FABULOUS – and considered a modern day philosopher — get the 10 CD set of Ken Wilber”

    Thanks for the heads-up.

  113. Hi, guys – so wonderful to get a virtual hug from my brothers and my sister.
    Love and big hugs back,
    Just Me

  114. Thanks for the tip WH.

  115. Jewel, Thanks for this. JUST DO IT in actual fact was coined by LRH in a lecture in the 50’s. I think it is one of those dubbed classics. Where he talks about getting students to do TR0, and the guy rolls up into the fetal position, and LRH advises putting him back in the chair and telling him tone 40, “Just Do It!.” Jimbo you got the reference?

  116. Yeah, it is the inflow flow of thought stopping.

  117. Your humble servant


    I am not sure where you are going with all this other than criticizing Scientologists for being closed minded. Real Scientologists are not closed minded, arrogant, better than thou, or blindly contemptuous of actual knowledge unearthed in other fields. To the extent that they are, to that extent they are not real “Scientologists.” It is a shame that there has been so much misunderstanding that anyone would think otherwise. Some have experienced it so much the other way that they have quit calling themselves Scientologists. To my mind, that is too bad. As Ron said in the lecture, Scientology and Effective Knowledge, “All I have tried to teach you is to look.”
    I do agree with you closing exhortation, “Read, investigate, communicate.” Certainly Ron would too.

  118. How you to me on this one is totally lost on me.

  119. Wayne Froemke (AKA "Safe")

    I’ve often wondered,

    “Who did Ron pass his important Research Hat to?”

    “Why was Scientology R&D apparently abandoned?”

  120. A bit surprising post, Marty, but in a good way.
    I respect you being able to see things that way as well.
    I am glad I can too. It’s about freedom, choices, learning.
    It’s liberating to be able to learn anything for oneself for real.
    May be that’s why I decided to post here for the first time and not just read.
    I am a trained auditor and all I ever wanted is to help others and myself.
    It’s been a wild ride.
    Thank you.

  121. I thought the King was right on with that assessment. I think you are getting close to reaching the gong with the level of ad hominen you are hitting.

  122. btw, listen to In The Ghetto if you want to know the King’s street cred. Right Amy?

  123. I have noted this for about a year or more. Not sure when I came to the conclusion the church can’t be reformed., The tech as it is is not going to save the world. (I am for the auditing tech.)

    I seen a group that is working for it and they do use science quit a bit and I am pretty sure if one drops the religion cloak which I consider it not a religion anyhow but a philosophy of life. That happens to have counseling for personal improvement that goes with it.

    It is why I been telling people here and elsewhere about the Venus Project and the tech of auditing.

    I talked a class 9 who is interested when ever he is ready to work in that direction to create a resource based economy which eliminates so much of the causes of why the tech went down but not all of it. I needs the tech as well to flourish and prosper. I would not discount other workable tech as well. I am in the crowd for standard teach but one that is aware more research and refinement is needed.

    I have been out here long enough I learned to see. In a way I been described as Agnostic. I think I will call myself an Agnostic, Indie.

    Anyhow the class 9 reads here. I have no idea much of how he found me elsewhere but he did, I guess I am the only Fancy in this area.

  124. I bet it has been a ride. Thanks for weighing in.

  125. Wayne Froemke (AKA "Safe")


  126. FYI — his 10 CD set is called: Kosmic Consciousness as is in interview format between Ken and Tami Simon (owner of Sounds True).

    It’s wonderful. Can be purchased on Amazon, eBay, Borders etc

    I think you’ll love it.


  127. Jean-François Genest

    « because it is discouraged as being rewarding a downstat »
    → YES Mary! That is the Fixed Idea EXACTLY

  128. Bingo! “OT VIII”‘s response just articulated the point I was trying to make about the absence of love, compassion or empathy! Scary! How amazing to see it right there before your eyes!

  129. Also I think Marty you got it right. This Video is a good part of the Venus Project. It does not have to be the Venus Project but it is a Resource based economy where we share resources planet wide and remove the boarders. There is so much more to it than that. I don’t even have it all learned yet.

    Look up Jacques Fresco. He may miss the mark here and there but 99 percent of the time he hits the bulls eye and sometimes he say something like LRH would say.

  130. Hi Jewel,
    You can private message me at

  131. Although I do not split up the dynamics exactly like you do (that anyway arbitrary separation of life into these 8 dynamics – LRH!) it reminds me of LRH talking in a lecture how a PC or staff member explained to him how “everything” is explained to that person by Randomity. LRH acknowledged him for his understanding while also letting him know it doesn’t explain things the same for him – but good for him. Its HIS understanding.


  132. Mehitable (the alley cat)

    Inclined to agree with you sunshine. For the last few days, me old theta bones have been feeling that the turgid shithouse that Miscavige has built for himself is about to come tumbling down around his shanky arse.

    Perhaps then the sign can be plastered across the churches,
    “Under New Management”.

  133. Aaaahhh … back to basics. Thank you, Tom. The best stuff is the simple stuff.

    Just Me

  134. Just sent you a PM, Joe!

  135. Wayne Froemke (AKA "Safe")

    IMO, it’s the elitist, “know best” snooty attitude of many in the Church of Scientology (DM is the master of this) which has caused major back-flash (ARC breaks) at Scientology, and have put Scientologists in poor esteem.

    (Add to that the unwillingness of many church Scientologists and Staff to communicate to the non-Scientology public..)

    This greater-than-thou attitude is reflected, alone, in the wide use of the term “WOG” among many Scientologists. Just because LRH used it, never made it OK.

    Then there’s the hierarchy “Classes” of Scientologists on the Bridge, along with the Hierarchy of IAS Patron status’s, which all only propagate further and continued arrogance.

    Then there’s the Sea Org elitism. Are Sea Org Staff truly better, more on-purpose people than non-Sea Org Staff from Orgs and Missions?

    For that matter, are Scientologists better people than non-Scientologists?

    WHO determines who is a more valuable Being?

    “Auditors are the most valuable Beings on the planet.” Which auditors? Clearly, there are good and bad auditors. We know that by their results. So that statement can only be relative.

    Apparently, the only people who have any affinity for such elitism are the elitists themselves.

    Any remnant of humbleness that used to exist in CofS virtually got lost in the CofM. But how could it exist under the duress of suppression by the Supreme Being of SPhood?

    (However, I don’t blame the original source of elitist behavior on DM.)

    How long will a non-Scientologist listen to somebody whom they feel is acting arrogant at them? Not very long.

  136. Jean-François Genest

    ¿ OT VIII ?
    ► Is there something about you that I should know?

    Better change your handle name.
    Might as well call yourself OT15², or is that still too low for you?

  137. 37
    “The Tao never does anything,
    yet through it all things are done.

    “If powerful men and women
    could center themselves in it,
    the whole world would be transformed
    by itself, in its natural rythms.
    People would be content
    with their simple everyday lives,
    in harmony, and free of desire.

    “When there is no desire,
    all things are at peace.”

    “EVery being in the universe
    is an expression of the Tao.
    It springs into existence,
    unconscious, perfect, free,
    takes on a physical body,
    lets circumstances complete it.
    That is why every being
    spontaneously honors the Tao.

    “The Tao gives birth to all beings,
    nourishes them, maintains them,
    cares for them, comforts them, protects them,
    takes them back to itself,
    creating without processing,
    acting without expecting,
    guiding without intervering.
    That is why love of the Tao
    is in the very nature of things.”

    Tao Te Ching
    Lao Tzu

    “Life is basically a static.
    “DEFINITION: A life statis has no mass, no motion, no wavelength, no location in spce or in time. it has the ability to postulate and percieve.”

    Scn Axiom 1

    REVENIMUS — Namaste

  138. droll. Particularly so when aimed at (an?) “OTVIII”


  139. Mr. Daddy,
    Thank you for answering my question. Now to answer yours: I don’t know why these Mythbuster people you speak of never heard of Hubbard’s research on plants or why they heard or didn’t hear about anything.

    But further to the point of why anyone would want to attempt to increase their knowledge about plants and gain a greater understanding of chemical, electrical, emotional, biological or spiritual phenomena of plants, let me point out that you would not even be alive on this planet if it weren’t for plants. You wouldn’t even have food or an atmosphere and you certainly wouldn’t have most medicines, which I’m sure you could agree you probably do enjoy having, do you not? It would seem to me to be a fairly important and sane thrust towards intelligence to see how this life form interacts with it’s own species and that of man. But don’t let me assume anything about you, though.

    By the way, what made you think that the only reason Hubbard or anyone else who has researched plant life did so solely to determine if they felt pain or not?

  140. “Life is basically a static.
    “DEFINITION: A life static has no mass, no motion, no wavelength, no location in space or in time. It has the ability to postulate and perceive.”

    Scn Axiom 1

    REVENIMUS — Namaste

  141. Yes.

    Scientology is one contextual description of what is. There are other possible ways to communicate the same or similar truths. (Although my personal opinion is that LRH did a bang up job! He put disparate knowledge in context and inspired considerable amplification by his followers, as well as adding many new concepts as well)

    It is not the description that is the most important, but the truth conveyed.

    And in the end we don’t “make it” if everyone else doesnt.

  142. Question: How much truth can one find in a brain?

    “At the age of 8 a child learns it has one and only life…”

    Why integrate into this nonsense?

    When was scientology ever meant to help people integrate into alter-isness and MEST, into bank…?

  143. Awesome Bozz, I can agree with that.

  144. Jean-François Genest

    Merci! I enjoyed this mini lecture. Good thesis. Good viewpoint.
    On an æsthetic note (6.0), this designer is awesome at his/her craft!
    Probably didn’t read/study the Art Series but would certainly understand them.

  145. Who are the “scientists”?
    The guys who invent the new drugs that replaced the drugs that had all those side effects, that replaced the drugs that had those bad side effects, that replaced the drugs that had those really bad side effects…
    The guys who develop new weapons for the military?
    The guys who invented the iPhone?
    Why are these guys the final word on everything?
    For starters, the outcome of scientific studies is largely determined by the people footing the bill.
    Who do we send Scientology to? The university? Are the professors at the university going to study Scientology, apply it and give us some feedback?

    I know this must seem like a comvenient answer, but Scientology just doesnt fit into that box. It’s spiritual.
    If you send it to “the Scientists” you are up against walls and walls of fixed ideas and prior conclusions. You probably couldnt even get anyone to look at it or the rest to take it seriously if anyone did.

  146. Tony DePhillips

    OT VIII,
    You are an interesting person. You seem very intelligent. I look at you and wonder “maybe he is just decompressing and still feels the severe need to “defend” Scientology as some carry over from being part of the cult”. Or sometimes I think you are an OSA plant. I have seen several comments that were very good, then you go and do some kind of “defensive” type posturing and you look sort of ridgy. I’m still hoping that you are just decompressing and not an actual OSA-bot.
    I’ve got money on you, so don’t let me down.

  147. Cat Daddy,
    I don’t think you’re here to try to destroy the subject of Scientology or even this blog. I believe that your intentions are as you say they are and I have no problem with that. What I do have a problem with is demeaning people for their viewpoints without truly understanding them or attempting to deny them through invalidation. It comes across as arrogance and ignorance and makes me cringe, as you yourself experienced from another’s post.

    Thank you for admitting to your harshness of your post. Hey, nobody’s perfect. I was harsh, too. By the way, I do not for a second think less of you or anyone else in the world for not having been a Scientologist. As a matter of fact, I enjoy the non-Scientological input and perspective equally to the Scientological ones.

    Now, about those tomato plants…


  148. Yeah, in Psychic Discoveries Behind the Iron Curtain, they’ve essentially photographed a thetan. (Well, as much as is possible so far in the Phys U)

  149. ΘTater/GaryLerner

    Tolerance and Communication ARCU!!!!!!!

  150. ΘTater/GaryLerner

    Oops… Should be:

    Tolerance and Communication “” ARCU!! (hope this works)

  151. ΘTater/GaryLerner

    Ok… so my meaning is this:

    Tolerance and Communication equals ARCU!!

  152. Scott Campbell

    The Theta Facsimile illustrated.


  153. Had CofM NOT done this: “monopolized in a zealotous religious context” THIS video perhaps would have included the ENTIRE story.
    I’m still in pissed mode over CofM dirtying the public’s image of LRH (though uptone from where I entered this blog).
    For the last 10+ years I’ve had to assimilate LRH into my non-LRH-aware world. Latest – discussing psychology class with my oldest, how it fits/doesn’t fit with being a thetan. Watching a science program with my chemist husband who knows he’s lived before, but how does it fit…ETC…ad infinitum. Integrate. Yes. Move out of any fixed ideas, unfix them, THINK with the data and integrate.
    Excellent post yet again!

  154. one of those who see

    Hi Marty,
    Just watched the video. Communication can lead to Empathy which can lead to world peace. Yes.
    It is the correct direction for Scientologists to be free to research and hear the conclusions of others. To be in comm with others as well. There have been and are many wise men and women on this planet. Also, Opening and freeing communication will result in “the world” having more ARC for Scientology and therefore the tech will be used by more people.
    This Blog is so very important. I believe this is a renaissance. Well done Marty.

  155. I agree with what you say about LRH, except he is no longer THE Source to me. Now that I’m outside of the church he is a source of knowledge and wisdom, and a hell of a researcher, but there is now room in my universe for other sources. Thanks Marty and others for helping me broaden my list of sources.

  156. one of those who see

    Hi Stat,
    Welcome! This is wonderful, isn’t it! Glad you have decided to add your voice.

  157. OT VIII,
    For the sake of world peace, I’m going to ignore your attempt at demeaning me through my moniker. I’d hate to see this blog deteriorate into the type of blog/newsgroup pissing contest that the internet is famous for.

    But to answer your question exactly, no it does not stand for delerium tremens. Sounds like you’re trying to enturbulate. I’m not.

    That said, let me address a couple things here. First, the Elvis thing. It’s not inapplicable when someone walks away from a dissemination encounter with a derogatory viewpoint, which is what happened with Elvis. He was mishandled. They tried to pry a ton of dough out of him. Also, it’s not a generality, not even per the definition of the word, just because you don’t have all the data. Research it. Elvis was very smart and very spiritual. He read a lot of books, including some Scientology books. Watch videos by his insider friends and relatives he talked to about this, particularly his step-brother. You’ll find it from many sources. I’ve also personally spoken at great length to staff who were in Celebrity Center when Elvis went there. Street creds as a philosopher are not necessary to having an experience or an opinion.

    After reading your reply to my post, I now understand more fully why Cat Daddy jumped on you. My apologies to Cat Daddy for jumping on him in your defense. I hereby withdraw my defense of you. It was premature.

  158. PCs flew very long distances from other states to come to our mission to get auditing. I felt that same thing, OTDT of like, huh? Aren’t all auditors this way? I’m just doing it the way it’s supposed to be done. The field auditors we hired were all very high ARC people who genuinely cared about the success of the PCs, no other agenda.

  159. Justin Whalin. Nephew of Lance, son of Craig and his beautiful wife.

  160. Actually, both plants and animals are sending us messages about their “feelings” and intentions without saying a word. A beautiful ripe peach hanging off the end of a branch, blushing and about to explode is obviously saying “eat me”
    On the other hand, the plump beautiful pig who is running from the butchers hatchet is obviously saying “don’t eat me”

  161. Jean-François Genest

    * There is a recurring omission in posts and comments, throughout the web-logs (blogs) and web sites, concerning Scientology and Dianetics research, L. Ron Hubbard’s findings and their presentation. One must ALWAYS keep in mind that the words of L. Ron Hubbard, in published form and spoken lecture form are NOT A STATEMENT OF CLAIM BY THE AUTHOR. They are only a RECORD OF THE RESEARCH conducted
    by L. Ron Hubbard (and his assistants), and presented by LRH.

    The inside cover of EVERY published book by L. Ron Hubbard contains the following text, as requested by LRH.

    Please allow me to present this text below, quoted verbatim from the inside cover of my book Mission Into Time, printed in 1973.
    To the reader:
    Scientology is a religious philosophy containing pastoral counseling procedures intended to assist an individual attain Spiritual Freedom. The Mission of the Church of Scientology is a simple one ─ to help the individual attain full awareness of himself as an Immortal Being, and of his relationship to the Supreme Being. The attainment of the benefits and goals of Scientology requires each individual’s dedicated participation as only through his own efforts can he himself, as a Spiritual Being, achieve these.

    This is part of the religious literature and works of the Founder of Scientology, L. Ron Hubbard. It is presented to the reader as part of the record of his personal research into Life, and should be construed only as a written report of such research and not as a statement of claims made by the Church or the author.

    Scientology and its sub-study, Dianetics, as practiced by the Church, address only the “Thetan” (Spirit). Although the Church, as are all churches, is free to engage in spiritual healing, it does not, as its primary goal is increased SPIRITUAL AWARENESS for all. For this reason, the Church does not wish to accept individuals who desire treatment of physical illness or insanity but refers these to qualified specialists of other organization who deal in these matters.

    The Hubbard Electrometer is a religious artifact used in the Church confessional. It, in itself, does nothing, and is used by Ministers only, to assist parishioners in locating areas of spiritual distress or travail.

    We hope the reading of this book is only the first stage of a personal voyage of discovery into the new and vital world religion of Scientology.
    The board of directors.

    Thank you,
    Jean-François Θ▲

  162. Hi Joe

    I want to play with you a little here…

    This caught my eye.
    “A single cell on this planet can only grow so large, like a water balloon, before the membrane bursts. Therefore the amount of information capable of being stored in one cell is limited.”

    I don’t know why but that made me chuckle. The image was priceless.

    I do however not agree with the “therefore” conclusion. In my opinion there is no connection between the size or even number of cells and the “information capable of being stored.” MEST can only store MEST, like structure, motion, anomalies, damage, etc. That is the “trace on a cell”, at a strictly MEST level. To me it is only Theta that can “store” theta or thought, and I use the concept of “store” loosely here. In my experience the thought part of memory as not stored at all. The thetan creates any thought or memory in present time. No real need to store it at all. The only reason that he has it in present time is that that is where he/she is creating it. A memory of the past is a present time creation with a time stamp on it of an earlier time. A Thetan has the ability to create limitless amounts of “memories” simultaneously. MEST is analogue, Theta is wide spectrum.
    By my observation MEST “memories”, short listed above, tend to make the MEST to which they are attached more solid, and more slow (less energy). Curiously enough Mest itself also only exists in present time. It’s current condition, or state, reflect the nature of the forces brought to bear against it. This state has no relevance at all except as considered or postulated by Theta.

    Waxing philosophic…

  163. Grasshopper~In a very simple way, to assimilate with my 99% Roman Catholic acquaintances, I often have said, it all makes perfect sense if you lengthen out the span of lifetimes (anyone I’ve ever asked feels like they’ve lived before) for a very long and many lifetimes before we finally get to “heaven” in the end. You should see the lightbulbs go off on that one! It’s a great spiritual cog for them actually. This is the handling my girls use when asked if they believe in heaven too. I can be right. 🙂

  164. So right on! It became exclusionary, cultish and arrogant. What good is it, cordoned off from the societies of the very planet it was meant to help! I find myself shaking my head in disbelief sometimes.

  165. Delerium Tremens here! Ha ha ha! Hey Joe!

  166. Scott Campbell

    I second that reason.

    Bravo, Marty.


  167. Cat Daddy~Excellent point and the point Marty made here: “Why did Mythbusters never heard of Hubbard’s research on it?”
    LRH was a scientist of the mind and spirit and of course he’s going to research all sorts of things like scientists do. CofM made it impossible to assimilate LRH’s good works into the mainstream as they should have been! Bastards! 😦

  168. Thank you for this, it’s perfect.

  169. Marty
    Thank you for the post.

    The exclusionist viewpoint never seemed to be LRHs way. By its very nature it will deny one practicing it the fruits of optimum survival as it does not include all the Dynamics.

    I feel that to be “cause over life” one does not need to agree with everything, but it is wise to exercise enough ARC to duplicate as much as possible. If you have not duplicated another viewpoint how could you possibly evaluate if it is valuable or not in your pursuit of “optimum survival (or beingness) across all the Dynamics” ( I cognited at one point that the “granting of beingness” and duplication are the same thing.)


  170. Scott Campbell

    OT VIII,

    “We may err, for we build a world with broken straws. But we will never betray your faith in us so long as you are one of us.” –LRH

    In your opinion, what does this statement mean?


  171. Bozz~What you say is spot on.
    I felt I would get creamed by CofM if I audited. Now I don’t feel that way because I have the people allover the world that communicate that they can and are auditing nowadays without getting creamed.
    Some years ago, going into some of these online places was like jumping into a pack of rabid dogs for me! I’m not a total idiot!
    Marty has made it safe to BE. He let’s you BE and me BE because we obviously have similar goals and are empathetic to each other and others like us.
    Together, we BE jammin’

  172. Independent Scientologist

    I’ve been out of the church less than three months, and I am in progress on my study of the R6 materials to audit that level and continue up the Bridge. As I like to say, I left the church, I didn’t leave Scientology.

    I am now MUCH more open to reading about and listening to other points of view on religion, spirituality and self-help, but only in an academic sense.

    For me, Scientology works, and it works to an extent that leaves everybody else in the dust. So I’m happy now to talk with somebody about “The Release Technique” or “Reality Therapy” or “Transcendental Meditation” or any other philosophy or practice. But talking is as far as it goes. I have zero interest in DOING any of that other stuff.

    Based on this whole thread, I guess I still classify as a stuck-in-the-mud Scientologist: I do not understood how somebody who has had proper and standard auditing tech applied to them would then go off looking for some other spiritual path. Is my ARC lacking on this point?

    In my opinion, even if you’ve reached the full EP of OT VIII, and there is no more formal Bridge to do, you can still turn to Scientology to learn how to become your own spiritual researcher and figure out what’s next.

    So the notion that Scientology needs to catch up with the world makes me cringe a bit. Sounds like an invitation to alter the subject and make it unworkable.

    Leads me to expect that auditing and training in the independent field will resemble the wild, wild west (actually a lot of it already is wild, wild west).

    Ron Matlock

  173. Sam

    I’m feeling “playfully Theta” tonight myself.

    “Wind’s” up.. Maybe I’ll just go for a “walk”..


  174. “The love I know exists is the love I can’t resist.”

  175. Marty,
    My recall of that tape was he said, “DO IT!! DO IT!!” (The warrantee is starting to expire on my memory banks recently, so I can’t swear to it)

    Nike, after spending millions of dollars on market research, added “Just” and it’s become widespread cultural colloquialism! Ha ha ha!

  176. Scott Campbell

    Elvis could hear a song one time, even in a foreign language, and sing it back perfectly. Can you do that?

  177. Tony DePhillips

    Me three and I’m not just saying it.
    Something happened within the last two days that blew some big charge someplace. My friends are happier and are getting into creating some tech handlings.

  178. Good points, Joe.

  179. OTDT~I am impressed by the cool cat, myself. He takes it on the chin quite well and from a surprisingly exterior viewpoint (way better than I would when I was drinking Koolaid, for example). Cats have claws but I love them anyway. They purr too. 😉

  180. There are over 600 now. 🙂

  181. Cat Daddy

    If one considers pain to be the response of an organism to the inhibition or lessening of survival and pleasure as a response to furthering of survival then one could postulate plants feel both pleasure and pain in accordance to their “Dynamic Thrust”.
    Haven’t been a plant for a bit myself ( or perhaps it is just all occluded) so I cannot say for sure…. But there you go… I find I am capable of having an opinion about something I have no direct experience with but am quite willing to be either right or wrong…

    Ahhhhhh Freedom! Ain’t it grand?


  182. martyrathbun09

    Thanks Tara!

  183. martyrathbun09

    If you took it as an invitation to alter workable technology, you took it wrong.

  184. Jewel, I thought it was a well thought and written post. Anyone who sticks at a typo or such isn’t getting the comm. When I tell a contractor about the tone scale and he finds it useful in his work he doesn’t really care where it came from unless he thinks there’s more to learn that he can use then he reaches; but not for a religion, just more workable tech.

  185. martyrathbun09

    second sentence deleted. not needed to make your point. not allowed on this site, by popular demand, so that current members may be referred here without immediately being blown off.

  186. HI WH,
    I have noticed the uptick as well. I always enter from Steve’s site to Marty and then to Jeff so I watch the numbers. Recently they started the upswing after the blog on TC and climbed more after the post on the BBC.

  187. Tony DePhillips

    Hi Cat Daddy and OTDT and OTVIII,
    One thing I have observed is that you have all invalidated other viewpoints if you didn’t like them to one degree or another. I have done the same thing so I will include myself in the mix. What I think is helpful as much as possible is to listen to other views and if you don’t like them you can try to change them in a (as much as possible) non- hostile way. I get hostile too. Sometimes I enjoy it. But unitl you are sure the person is not of good intent I think it is best to grant beingness and use ARC as much as possible.

    Cat are you a Christian? I don’t care if you are or not , but I have seen some Christians that have a real axe to grind with Scientology. Is that the case with you? I do feel a lot of what you say here is helpful and I personally like you. It would be intersting to find out what is your motivation.

    OTDT I think I understand you.

    OT VIII I think the jury is still out on you.

    Me?? I am an SP I guess. So says the cult.

  188. Tony DePhillips

    Yes. I thought the Cat handled it very well and set a good example for some of the Scientologists.

  189. Bozz

    Hmmm… Good to see you are adamant that Auditing and learning to audit are where it’s at. We certainly need you and those with similar purposes. There is a lot of work to do and precious few doing it on a global scale.
    Personally, though I find both very survival, Auditing is just one of my purposes, all of which I have evaluated against my concept of “optimum survival (and beingness) across the Dynamics”. In my opinion Auditing is most valid up to the 4th Dynamic and on the 7th but elsewhere diminishes in value. For me other technologies and abilities and purposes fill in the gaps. Many are LRH or LRH inspired but not all.


  190. Tony DePhillips

    Great point Wayne.
    If we are to make it to full OT if that is possible and if the tech has not been researched all the way then someone will have to work on it right?? Would they be considered a “squirrel” or an “SP”?

  191. Tony DePhillips

    Nice Joe,
    That one had to hit home.

  192. martyrathbun09

    You miss the forest for the trees. 100% of the criticisms of Dianetics and Scientology (the subjects themselves) were predicated on your very tactic. That is take one thing in isolation (and not even comment on the entire message) and pounce on it. I suggest you make a greater effort to exteriorize from the GPM.

  193. martyrathbun09

    Also, I suggest you watch the documentary, FOOD INC. There is a farmer on there who talks about how agri-conglomerates are poisoning our food out of a disregard for the life that we depend on for our food; and that he fears a culture, or leadership, that does that will one day treat human life the same way. I think there is a lot of truth to that; though I know it wasn’t the purpose of LRH’s experiments.

  194. I understood the point, Marty. I been out here a while and I been advocating the tech as well the VP but I have seen there is more to be done but one keeps the working tech where it is.

    I posted what I think before. People don’t get it at times you can have both. Standard tech and then take new tech and reach the stars. Or do research. Myself I am mostly talking society changes not tech changes.

  195. Tony DePhillips

    It is sad that the current cult has created an environment where people now believe that it IS Scientology and to be a “good Scientologist” to be “cold tone-40”, to be a “money grubbing heartless bastard is KSW!!”. To be intolerant with people is a good trait. If you are nice and listen, then you have “suppressive reasonableness”. When you have a leader that nurtures these things in a group then you have an SP.. So don’t be surprised when people want to dissassociate with being identified as a Scientologist because until you have enough of them setting a good example, how can you say that the philosophy is so good and get others to believe it??
    Of course I know that the philosophy has some incredible things in it and I still call myself a Scientologist. (Independent) If the leader of the group were setting a good example do you really think we would have this mess on our hands??

  196. Tony DePhillips

    Hi Stat,
    Good to see you here.
    Keep reading and posting and you will come out the other side.
    You are amongst friends.

  197. I just got to watch the video. I’m not sure now if what I wrote before even makes sense now. It was very much worth watching. I got a different perspective on the dynamics, and yes this guy is hitting right up against scientology. Great stuff. Some things I dont agree with in there but overall very good. And I learned a lot by clearing some words.

    I’ve been working on the idea of the dichotomy. The idea that everything has to be divided up into black and white. Thats what politics is. This guy almost touched on it. I think a lack of empathy (defined as per this video) and the dichotomy go hand in hand. Those people over the hill are “the enemy”. The guys in your group are the “good guys”, etc. It’s easier to think that way, but it’s lazy.

  198. Tony DePhillips

    AS-IS, alter ises this one.

  199. Scott Campbell


    Do any of you trained auditors or others out there recall a hand written LRH reference where he says, (possible paraphrase) “The vast majority of any human population (like animals, grass and trees) are minion in origin.” ?

    If so, do you know the title of the ref and where to find it? I’d like to have it so I can use it to illustrate a point I’d like to make, but it’s been so long since I’ve read it, I’d like to refresh my memory first.


  200. Scott Campbell

    Hi Dave,

    Do I know you from when I was on the EPF in PAC during the summer of ’85? Are you the same Dave Adams?

    And, my question to you is. Who is everyone else? (see my LRH ref request below)


  201. Tony~Nope, sorry, you have one of the traits to prove you social…self-criticism. 😉

  202. It’s people, soylent green is people!

  203. Cat Daddy a Christian? Nah. My guess … a scientifically oriented New Ager. That’s why he’s so curious about Scientology. 🙂

    Cat Daddy … when you’re ready to truly grok the subject (sans the organizational broohahah) … you’ll be blown away. I can feel it in me bones.

  204. Wayne

    I suspect that further S&D was effectively squashed when LRH issued KSW#1. Perhaps it LRH felt it was important to “freeze” the tech at a highly workable point, but I feel that it left the door open to the kind of deterioration we now see. In my opinion, without continued “create” on the tech it has the chance of going the way of other religions, where they become fixated on control, and become isolationist and slowly strangle themselves.
    It is a tough dilemma for me to come up with a superior handling. On the one hand I want the tech and the spirit of Scientology to remain pure and unaltered, but on the other I feel that the only “safe” way to preserve the pure tech or, at least some of it, is to open it up for any and all users. There will undoubtedly be many variations spring up but I am hoping that those with the best results will survive and prosper, and I consider those will likely be the truest to LRH intention and technologies. It will hopefully all come down to the survival of the one that is most closely assisting in “the highest level of survival across the Dynamics.”

    At one point LRH said “For Gods sake build a better Bridge.” It was back in the early days of Dianetics, but I take him at his word anyway. I think it is up to thee and me to make it go right however we can. Our Dynamics and the quality of the game depend on it. It now is, and in reality always was, entirely up to us what we create. Let it be Theta!

    Thank all those, in advance, who take part in that create.


  205. Basically, there may be advances in the science of the brain, but Scientology is not physics.

    This video’s presentation of evidence that humans being are basically social is something with which I agree. However, the subsequent dissertation about test results that discovered a monkey’s brain fired the very same neurons watching a person eat a nut as it fired when eating one itself launches a logic that had has fallacies. Whereas I admire his goal, the schema in his logic has breakdowns in reasoning.

    Just because his A equaled B, I personally did not buy the C that followed when I saw that his B was not really B. Examples?

    His statement that there is no empathy in heaven because there is no mortality in heaven. I wonder why he mentions “heaven”, as a scientist, as that is a highly speculative concept, unproven in scientific terms, but that’s a separate topic. I strongly disagree with his stated premise that empathy is only based upon and develops at the point of human being’s awareness that he/she is going to die. The author this presents this as something you have to agree is true in order for the rest of his logic to follow. I don’t.

    Empathy is simply the ability to feel or perceive what another is experiencing. The cause and ability extends beyond neurons, and has been seen to exist even before people are aware they are mortals.

    Overall it’s a dampening thought to attempt to define myself through atoms. Why is that, if I’m only atoms? — correct me if I’m mistaken– the brilliance that L. Ron Hubbard demonstrated was tackling the problem of human existence and thought from the inverse of its apparency, the apparency being that existence is solid and all known elements are observable. (For that matter, no pun inended, as much as 90% of matter of our universe is invisible. It begs the question what else is there even beyond that?)

    Another argument the author sets forth in his logic set up is that the ‘mirror neurons’ explain how, in an evolutionary track, humans “empathized”: first with their own blood, then as tribes, then nations, then religions . I embrace where his argument is leading, i.e., it’s the natural order of things that we take the next step and empathize that we are all one race? And get along on one planet. Applause, standing ovation.

    But what has he overlooked? The logic breaks down. How? What about Cain and Abel? They were family, they hypothetically ’empathized’, yet they were rivals and one killed the other. And the truth is family and nations and religions DO fight among themselves, and very destructively. Despite “mirror neurons.” So right there, his logic breaks down.

    Awareness of self, family, tribe, and race, and groups, and nations, spiritual practices (spirituality) and humanity is much better described as the concentric circles of survival and awareness in Hubbard’s Ethics theories. By much better, I mean more completely, more fundamentally.

    Of course chemicals and atoms and neurons affect behavior and mood, no question. But, conversely, MOODS and THOUGHT also affect neurons. It’s symbiotic. Which is senior? IN the long run?

    I personally look at the universe in a way that takes one step back, an earlier on the chain, if you will. Neurons exist to serve that function, a preexisting quantum of life.

    The sciences are fabulous, technology is awesome. It is what it is. It deals with the realm of what it can put its meat finger on. Is there anything beyond that?

    Fortunately for us, many pioneers of thought have dared to ask. L. Ron Hubbard is one of them, and he acknowledged the centuries of thinking men who came before him. Unlike religious leaders, real scientists value argument, dissension, discussion, the laboratory of discovery.

    Galileo even said: “Measure what is measurable, and make measurable what is not so.”

    L Ron Hubbard made the human soul measurable. He was attacked for that. Interesting to note, “the world” also attacked Galileo, he was publicly humiliated and placed under house arrest for what he saw, measured and dared to write.

    So as for comparing this video to Scientology — this author is not even in the league of Scientology as Hubbard developed it — and I don’t say that in a deprecatory way, I mean it literally: it’s apples and oranges, As a philosophy and a theoretical application, Scientology is axiomatic and undercuts details and manifestations. An axiom is as axiomatic as it is widely universally true and uniquely applicable. It’s complete.

    The animation and lecture style of this video is excellent. The science of “mirror neurons” is still considered highly speculative even in its field. The goal and vision he sets forth for humanity is laudable. He is not, however handing people a tool to work out their own puzzle.

    I love science, and simultaneously acknowledge something about the profession — it has a very low and often nonexistent tolerance for “not knowing.” So a lot of theories come out, then have to be “revised. ” They never say they were “wrong.” Nope. Just revised. Because they cannot bear to not know, or admit they came to a conclusion because they have a must-have on solid states and solid conclusions. One positive aspect of this is the protocol scientists have of respecting one another, even when they disagree.

    I contend that the explorer of the soul has to be able to both KNOW and NOT KNOW simultaneously. That’s a quantum state, actually, that does not follow the laws of classical physics. TWO OPPOSITE states exists simultaneously. Hubbard, as an explorer of thought, soul and mind, had that ability.

    I respect the laws of physics. (Obviously, I agree with them and respect them so much I’m running a body in this universe, calling myself here aren’t I? 😉 However, knowing how a carburetor is put together and how air/fuel ratio affect engine performance does not a driver make. Nor does it explain the car when it’s being driven.

    I’ve completely entertained and followed this video’s logic and it’s interesting.

    It’s observable that the the group think of “Churches” does not have enough understanding/reality of the very philosophy is proselytizes to recognize that the stuff really is applicable, that it works, and that people don’t have be forced, coerced, dominated or terrified into submission to not look at anything else lest their “beliefs” be shaken.

    Why would I want to drive an ox cart on the road to pop and bang enlightenment and release when I could be in a rocket? I’m not going to put down what is working for someone else. I’m not going to knock another person who believes they have a system that produces results — conversely, don’t knock me. My conclusion is based on communicating with no reservations.

    The moment Scientology crosses into something that has to be “believed” — it is not Scientology by its very definition. I don’t care what people tell me, or try to bully me around with.

    I respect scientific minds and breakthroughs being made. It’s nothing short of awesome. And after reading and looking all I want with gusto curiosity passion and vigor, I conclude each time that LRH has the rocket on the block of mediating the physical (mind) and spiritual (unquantifiable/ephemeral) aspects of human existence. And the world, as it usually does, will catch up.

    I don’t judge Hubbard by his followers. I judge him by my understanding of his work.

  206. How much truth was fit into that 10 minute video?

    I personally got very little value from it although it had a nice asethetic quality with the animation. Perhaps you saw a similarity in content to scio, an effort to get people looking at the 4th dynamic I’m guessing, yet this was not the entire, one and only message contained within the video. It was loaded with, IMO, lots of stuff that doesn’t come close to the level of truth contained within scio.

    How many times on the track should I integrate with these MEST lines of thinking? How times has scio been around…

    It’s a no brainer :-), excuse the pun.

    To further clarify my viewpoint, scio has a tremendous amount of truth in it, and also gives a practical means to attaining truth. I don’t see sciences that deal with MEST as being a viable path to truth.

    Perhaps it is not me dramatizing Marty…

  207. The idea that being empathetic and wanting to help the downtrodden is “rewarding a downstat” is absolute BS. For what is the purpose of Scientology if not to help all people out of the mud and get them more able? Wouldn’t auditing anyone be “rewarding a downstat?”

  208. Tara, and of course that echos the Buddhist teaching of escaping the life/death cycle and reaching Nirvana. One of my favorite concepts in Human Thought is the idea of the Bodhisattva – the one who, when reaching Nirvana, stops at the gate to help others across. To me, that is the the ultimate help flow.

    And, your explanation is great! And it happens to be true.

  209. ΘTater/GaryLerner

    Point to a star… and just be there. Θ :-]

  210. Righto!
    IMO we haven’t even balanced the checkbook yet. We’re still in the red, not even up to ground zero here.
    In my experience, I started 1 lifetime ago, continued now to life 2…made it upward for 12 years in which my main objective was to get trained (did through Grad V C/S, etc), taking a few with me, but then it became dangerous to my case/life to continue, left and it wasn’t looking too good here for me to continue upwards (those bastards) so a big ass comm lag of 10 years ensued until one powerful thetan in Arizona (Carol) must have summoned me through the universe and bam, I’m here! Meanwhile, back at the swamp, I’d summoned some LRHees of my own to come live with me (my kids) and I’ve got to ensure we ALL move forward. I don’t take that lightly for them or for ME come next time around or for anybody else with an aging body, if you know what I mean?
    So in a long-winded way, yes, we will need somebody working on that but we better get ourselves in a position to even DO it when the time comes and we definitely better not be closed-off to the future by stopping even the thought of this.
    I really do see that LRH did NOT create the box the CofM lives in. I don’t think LRH created a box at all. I am out of the box now. It feels GOOD!

  211. OT8-perhaps you are not differentiating between Scientology and David Miscavige’s brand of Scientology? Well, and not granting beingness either way, but you sound like sometimes you think people are saying good LRH loving Scientologists are suggesting something else is superior to LRH. That is not at all the case here.
    The point is just that truth is truth, no matter where you find it and one does not negate the other…it’s truth, right? So this video (I hope you’ve gathered bandwidth to watch it) is great though it does not cover the aspect of a thetan, for instance. But it does cover something lost in DM’s church which is made completely of ARC and that’s empathy.
    In any other practices, because of LRH’s knowledge that I fortunately have been privy to, I understand them MORE. I don’t automatically degrade them for not knowing LRH.
    Did you know what you know now BEFORE you read your first LRH book? How would you get from there to here if you weren’t allowed to look, listen and learn?
    Do you use LRH tech in your life on people who don’t know LRH tech? How? Do you use LRH terminology without clearing it? No? Tom was a dork for doing that. But he’s in DM’s valence, so what else would you expect? Bastards! I’m pissed too! But not at YOU.

  212. WW, wax away.

    Lipton’s research for years was with cells and protein receptors in the cell membrane, which he discovered was the “mind” of a cell, and environmental signals that caused gene expression and all kinds of biological processes (all explained very clearly to a layman). All this hard science led him to the conclusion that the environment was just as important as the cell itself, hence his concern that poisoning the planet, as man is doing currently will have deleterious effects on mankind as a whole, just as the development of a fetus born to a mother who lives in a very stressful environment will change the child in negative ways.

    The beginning of his research was the observation that identical cells placed into different petri dish environments developed into different types of cells, i.e., muscle cells or nerve cells, etc.

    Again, check out his website or his lectures. Absolutely not dry material.

  213. Yeah, as I recall it was one of the Classics. The student is told repeatedly “DO IT!” and finally realizes “You know, I CAN communicate.”

  214. I did a little Church of Scientology history research project recently. I went onto ebay, and bought up every issue of Advance! magazine that was published all the way back to the very first issue in 1968.

    In these early issues (through the mid- to late-70s), there was a vibrancy, a genuineness, a participation from the readers, people sharing wins, ideas, poetry, agreements and disagreements. There were book and movie reviews of Scientology and non-Scientology books and films. And the editors were freely writing about differing philosophies, religions, and spiritual and metaphysical paths in the world. Yes, there was a formula of always acknowledging the advances of Scientology, but this was balanced by an honest appreciation for the literature, sciences and philosophies of the world.

    In Advance! issue 21 (1973), we learned that a fellow Scientologist — and OT — was working with parapsychologists and physicists in New York and California to study telekinesis and “out of body” perception. That OT was Ingo Swann.

    In 1977, Advance! magazine told us about an “OT Symposium” in which half a dozen OT Scientologists described what they were doing in the fields of education, science, entertainment and parapsychology, to introduce and integrate Scientology ideas and principles into these fields. For example, Ingo Swann had a written a paper called “Scientological Techniques: A Modern Paradigm for the Exploration of Consciousness and Psychic Integration”. It was published and presented in the Proceedings on the First Conference on Psychotronic Research in Prague in 1974. Another Scientology OT was working at NASA on the space shuttle, informally introducing Scientology concepts there.

    These kinds of activities were embraced, announced and celebrated.

    But Advance! magazine was changing — and unfortuantely, not for the better. By late 1978, there were no “Letters to the Editor” published. No more poetry and book reviews. When wins were given, it wasn’t with full names, but with initials. By 1980, even the popular “OT Phenomena” section was discontinued. It was re-instated in 1982, but by this time, Advance! was a shadow of its former self — a slick, but lifeless, formulaic Scientology advertisement. No reader input. No real integration into the 4th dynamic.

    The theta and genuine 4th dynamic activities, were replaced with McDonaldized OT Phenomena and cookie cutter “spiritual history” stories. And it never recovered its former vitality, imho.

    This Scientology magazine, I think more than any other, documents the loss of theta and vitality from the Church of Scientology. And it also documents the fall away from embracing and integrating with the world, to being insulated from and resistive to it.

  215. WF,
    Exactly – ???

  216. Ron, IMO you are about to embark on the most fun auditing you will ever do on R6EW. It is a complete blast. Have fun with it!

  217. When was LRH anything other than the Source of his tech? Never. I don’t think he EVER wanted to be SOURCE of anything else, because if he did, he sure wouldn’t have created the KTL or LOC course. 😉

  218. Mr. Daddy agrees with everything you say and understands everything you day. Reasearch and devellop and Participate.

    However Mythbusters is a popular discovery programm. It is more entertaining than science but they do adress questions or myths living amongst the common populus.
    If you google or use whatever browser you will notice that there is much debate to be found on the net about plants feeling pain,,-83446,00.html
    And this books seems to be the norm:
    “Published in 1973, The Secret Life of Plants was written by Peter Tompkins and Christopher Bird. It is described as “A fascinating account of the physical, emotional, and spiritual relations between plants and man.”

    Essentially, the subject of the book is the idea that plants may be sentient, despite their lack of a nervous system. This sentience is observed primarily through changes in the plant’s conductivity, as through a polygraph, as pioneered by Cleve Backster. The book also contains a summary of Goethe’s theory of plant metamorphosis.
    So tonight when you eat a head of lettuce, be glad you can’t hear it screaming in pain.”

    The comments are intresting.

    What I think prevented aspects of Hubbards not to go mainstream is because a closed of envero,\ment in the Cof$ and PR reasons mreaning this experiment matyy have held delebritely out of the public eye back than so other studies that ociured later became top dog.

  219. You want the Truth ? The world thinks that Scientologists are icky. And you my friend are very convincing that this is true.

  220. Marty,
    Just a quick pit stop to congratulate you on the number of posts your blog received today!

    This site is really catching on. I think it’s because the disenchanted (and disfranchised) that are leaving the CofM are finding out that they can find the truth is being spoken here without fear of the tyrannical whims of David Miscavige.

    Moving On Up a Little Higher really is.

    Again, congratulations on your numbers!


  221. You are making it very small. Scientists alsoo puty people on the moon.

  222. Just replace it with “at 8 years old a child learns that life is precious “

  223. Work with Socïety instead of against it.

  224. Sarge,

    You are absolutely right. A year ago I would probably not have suffered Richard Behar to live. At the very least I would have ignored him. Now look at yesterday’s posts – he’s just a guy like the rest of us; he has something worth saying and worth listening to.

    Something is really going on, something good.


  225. LoL Oh hi there /b/rother Anon VIII

  226. I get it now. You must be one of those Grumpy Old Man I heared about 😉

  227. Bravo for breaking out of the box and bringing such great videos to our attention. Interesting concept about Utopia. That’s where I took a wrong turn. This video even has me questioning the efficacy of “past lives”. Not whether they are or are not real, but whether knowledge of them isn’t somehow a little dehumanizing. Just thinking out loud.

  228. Why thank you, you make me blush and stuff ;). mew

  229. There is a lot to be had from Scientology but a big mistake is to think that Scientology has all the answers – it hasn’t – and it is a mistake to not acknowledge the fact that there are other paths and methodologies, some derived from Scientology, some totally independent, that may add to Scientology and can take you “a little higher” in your self discovery and spiritual evolution. To look in one direction only is never advisable. Do one thing at a time, do not mix, but do not stop to looking. There is no substitution for an informed decision.

    It would be interesting to survey what scientologists and ex-scientologists moved to when they completed the Scientology Bridge. In know some found all what they were searching for and are happy with it. Some engaged in other practices: meditation, Falung Gong,… . Some found useful to continue on other Bridges build on Scientology fundamentals, Ron’sOrg Bridge, Knowledgism, Idenics, Metapsichology.

    This thread is about Empathy. I found empathy lacking in Scientology, yet given the proper importance and use in Metapsichology, just an example.

  230. Sam being around you is ARC SW in real life. 😉

    I think he made a Jest.

    -Recall release (ARC straightwire)
    -Knows he/she won’t get any worse
    -Freedom from deterioration

  231. I like that in you.

  232. I’m a book hoarder, I never throw a book away 🙂 I even still have my Latin text book from first year high school!

    For anyone who doesn’t have the list of acks in SOS, here they are from my 68 edition:


    Dedicated to

    Acknowledgement is made to fifty-thousand years of thinking men without whose speculations and observations the creation and construction of Dianetics would not have been possible. Credit is particular to due to:

    Roger Bacon
    Francis Bacon
    Isaac Newton
    van Leeuwenhoek
    Thomas Paine
    Thomas Jefferson
    Rene Descartes
    James Clark Maxwell
    Herbert Spencer
    William James
    Sigmund Freud
    Cmdr Thompson (MC) USN
    William A. White
    Will Durant
    Count Alfred Korzybski

    and my instructors in atomic and molecular phenomena, mathematics and the humanities at George Washington University and at Princeton.

  233. Wayne,

    I have a hunch on that. I think he passed that hat on to YOU. And to me, and everyone else who wants to use it. Something like this:

    Up to the end of OT VII is negative gain. OTVIII and higher is positive gain. I like to believe that a trained OT VIII can be trusted to look, observe and figure stuff out for themselves. At some point on the Bridge Ron has to stop holding our hands and showing us how to do it, and we have to start moving forward on our own steam (exactly like parents and kids).

    From the outside, OTVIII looks like the place where that starts.

    But this is all just my viewpoint and what I think. It’s not written down anywhere. As always YMMV and you are free to make up your own mind.

  234. Jewel – Now WAIT a minute!!!!!! Do you DARE to call the Native Sons of the Golden West building at 414 Mason the City of St. Francis a fucked up building ?????? Ha. I’m just having some fun with you. Even with no sign allowed and all sorts of mismatched furniture (and NO videos – just imagine!!!) in the 70’s enough folks found their way to the San Francisco Org so that there were 4 full time CS’s in just the Day Org alone (yes, Waldo was one of them Dan). And really, how bad could the location have been, with Lefty O’Doul’s down the street, what with the spaghetti dinner for $1.29, not to mention the big screen for sports and all those huge photos on the walls of Babe Ruth, Joe DiMaggio and Marilyn Monroe and many others.

  235. Dear Jewel,

    Well stated. I think the same way as you do !

  236. The jury will ALWAYS be “out” on me, I pray!

    It’s their verdict I dread.

    Don’t be surprised if I defy easy categorization.

  237. No – just a completely expressed technical difficulty.

  238. Food for thought, Adams!

    I didn’t say LRH was “decades” ahead……I said he was CENTURIES ahead.

    Kirlian photography doesn’t show the THETAN’S aura, that’s just a mere body thing. The “Thetan’s Aura” (if you want to call it that) is extremely localized to the Thetan, roughly spherical but rather SPIKY, and anywhere from a half inch to an inch in diameter, radiating and rippling in colors there are no human names for (as well as conventional colors).

    Those with sufficient awareness will have seen this phenomena, and can back me up. No Thetan, nor “Thetan’s Aura” has ever been photographed – period.

    If I come off as “snobbish”, this is simply a misinterpretation based on restimulation. I have seen what I have seen, and see what I see. Feel “left behind”? Not such a good feeling, is it?

    Many Composite Beings are at church today locally, thereby off the net, so I might get a chance to actually see the video.

    They are at church praying for the “thetan” they think they HAVE.

    I feel so left behind!

  239. The C.O.S is running an new ad campaign since some days.
    It seems the campaign is directing the people towards Steve’s site.

  240. Quite amazing – you talk just a LITTLE bit about “OT”, and the natives get restless indeed, pounding their spear butts into the ground and banging on their leather shields, even trotting out various modern witch doctors (of current favor).

    Reminds me of the reception I got at my home org after OT VIII. The natives there thought I was WAY more OT than I actually was, so the result was non-stop attacks on me until I finally had to disconnect out of self-defense.

    Here’s my advice to the offended: start spending more time getting your august buns up the Bridge, and less time whining about David “Miscarriage”. He’s a NOTHING, and his group is a NOTHING. I’ve known that for well over 20 years, so for latecomers to the party “Flunk for comm lag!”

    All the materials needed to make it at least to OT VIII are obtainable, thanks to various brave and resourceful individuals. Don’t be left behind!

    Or……continue sawing logs in the cellar, cozying up to various Kults De Jour. It’s your call!

    Mayo says Ron made it through OT XI……Marty says there’s nothing written-up beyond VIII. Class XII Pierre Ethier is working on his own OT levels beyond VIII, probably hewing closely to the LRH research track.

    Don’t be left behind.

  241. I recommend Pierre Ethier. I think he’s got the “stones”, the Class XII street creds, and the academic background to pick up the research hat.

    LRH was in bad shape physically and mentally in the years leading up to his death. As a result, he totally botched the R & D hat turnover.

  242. A very well-reasoned response on your part. Your points are excellent, and I certainly take them to heart.


  243. while I started to read this blog I considered it to be a good idea to restudy a 4th time the Philadelphia Doctorate Course as before I could not grasp the material. This time through I made a better job and could get the basic concept. And you know, Ron had been too far out of context with others. In essence Creative Processing is: mock something up = dream something up, and physical universe environment is changing. Nuts on the first look at. But I made a test. I wanted to know if this works out that way. And the test went good with some commlag. (I always had a long comm lag of changes after auditing) I dreamed up (mock up) winning at a certain gambling slot machine a certain amount of money. (2nd highest win on that machine). I did that for a week 5 minutes a day. After the 4th test I won that money. (I play only 20 bucks on those machines. For years. 2 or 3 times a month and never made more than 100. This time I made 400 as mocked up.
    You see, how could anyone agree that this is real.
    With the same type of auditing I healed my cat. Took only 2 hours.
    (my cat had this problem for 4 years with many doc visits.)
    Seems that this kind of stuff is impossible.
    But “normal” scientists know that this can be true. They use other words and concepts. They say, the experimentator with his expectations changes the way the experiment ends up. Same thing, different words. They did make only one mistake: they observed but did not investigate further into the matter. They may have come to the same conclusions layed out on the PDC tapes.

  244. Well put, “AS-IS”. Why deliberately drive an East German Trabant when you can drive a Cadillac?

    Let “science” claw its way out of the pit to come UP to the master subject of Scientology.

    Always be willing to extend them a helping hand UP.

  245. Wayne Froemke (AKA "Safe")

    Recently, I came across and started studying some amazing non-Scientologist Communications Tech.

    When I took the Scientology Communications Course, I had a lot of wins and cognitions. One was that if the world was really in communication, we’d have peace on earth. This has always been my favorite Scientology course.

    Learning the ARC triangle, I knew I had to communicate with affinity to truly connect with others, however, I never really learned exactly HOW.

    Not until recently, 32 years later, did I discover a huge lacuna in Scientology Tech (IMO) regarding the subject of HOW to communicate, which explains to me why and how there can be such uncompassionate (and robotic) communication in the Vulture Culture.

    I was never taught the subject of NONviolent communication (also known as compassionate communication). Most people are not. Not even Scientologists in Scientology. Little did I realize that how I communicated sometimes could be perceived as violent, and it actually WAS … to my shock! I certainly didn’t intend too! Now I’m learning Tech that shows how to teach peace.

    Apparently, this Nonviolent Communications Tech is spreading like wildfire around the globe. I am having cognition after cognition learning it, and it’s definitely going to effect the WAY I communicate from now on.

    Yes, I found out even “wogs” 🙄 can discover and teach amazing and workable Communications Tech too, tech not found in Scientology.

    (To think if I had the blinders on to just Scientology for all my self growth and spiritual development, I would have missed out on learning from Greats such as Jim Rohn, Brian Tracy, Wayne Dyer, and many others including my recently added Marshall B. Rosenberg and his NVC Tech.

    IMO, everybody needs this information, but members and staff of the CofM desparately needs this data.

    More information about Nonviolent Communication can be found here …

    “Nonviolent Communication (NVC) is sometimes referred to as compassionate communication. Its purpose is to:

    1. create human connections that empower compassionate giving and receiving.
    2. create governmental and corporate structures that support compassionate giving and receiving.

    NVC involves both communication skills that foster compassionate relating and consciousness of the interdependence of our well being and using power with others to work together to meet the needs of all concerned.

    This approach to communication emphasizes compassion as the motivation for action rather than fear, guilt, shame, blame, coercion, threat or justification for punishment.”

  246. Well said, Matlock!

    I never joined a single squirrel group after Scientology, though I investigated several. The ones I looked into had all adopted the most AMAZING malarkey and alter-is (and swore by it, of course). That’s what squirrels do.

    Me? I’m still 100% aligned to the LRH brand. Let the WORLD run a little harder to catch up to THAT! As I have said – I don’t even LIKE the guy (LRH) for personal reasons I will not go into here, but I totally respect what he has developed. If he had developed anything in writing past OT VIII, I’d be following that to the letter right now, but alas I don’t have that option.

    Keep on keeping on – and don’t stop at R6.

  247. It’s 5:30 AM in my neck of the woods.

    And there are currently 638 visitors on Steve’s site.

    Amazing … it’s not possible that 600 of them are OSA bots. Maybe 38?


  248. I find myself being inadequate in intellectual contribution because this tape just JAMS with deep and provoking observations and thought and I’m still digesting it. But I couldn’t agree more with your observations. There are so many good people in all fields who are trying to resolve life and livingness issues. 80% of us are social personalitites. I do strongly feel, Scientology under DM has adopted such stop thoughts and mind control that it has pushed itself outside of any meaningful dialogue with the rest of the people on planet Earth. This video just highlights how completely shallow and superficial their efforts to “clear the planet” actually are. Its sad but I don’t see it shaping this evolutionary process. No wonder DM and his gang of bots are scared of Scientologists becoming truly enlightened on the 4th dynamic: it would be so easy to see past their hype. Critical thinking – which is what a liberal arts education strives to develop – is forbodden; and black PR’d as “criticism” stemming from overts and withholds -which it is not.

  249. Saw the video, finally, in jerks and stops.

    Interesting – but the workable tech that will evolve from it is exactly *zero*.

    There’s a lot of stuff out there that may seem to make more sense than it does, due only to the alignment power that a Scientology education imparts to one. The trained Scientologist has to watch out for inadvertently “filling in the blanks” in a flawed exposition.

    I really enjoyed the video’s techniques and presentation-value, however.

    In a few hundred years this guy might actually HAVE something – oh – except for the “one-and-only-life” thing. Dang!

    Perhaps if we put 10,000 chimpanzees to work on this problem…..? But….I think they’re already employed at the Church of Miscavology, and they sure aren’t creating Shakespeare.

  250. “It was impossible to get a conversation going, everybody was talking too much.”
    Yogi Berra

  251. This comes to mind when I read this blog of Marty’s:

    “No man in the wrong can stand up against a fellow that’s in the right and keeps on a-comin‘“

    Interestingly, it’s the motto of the Texas Rangers 🙂


  252. Well, OT VIII,

    just get enough bandwidth and take a look on what goes on in the world.

    Peace, Fidelio

  253. StandardTechZealot

    Mike and Marty’s squirrel group keeps getting better. First it was all about how DM is the root of all evil, next thing you know, they are rubbing elbows with some infamous attackers of Scientology like Behar and Sweeney. Now, they are praising the work of whole-track psychiatrists, a complete affront to everything LRH ever stood for, unless some of you forget that psychiatry is the SOLE cause of crime in this universe and indeed all universes. Only a degraded being will work for an SP.

    THERE IS ONLY ONE TECH AND THAT IS STANDARD TECH!!! BTW, it’s interesting that no upstats like that Feshbachs or Jensens are participating in these natter board discussions; just the usual bad hats like Jesse Prince. Anyone got some pot I can smoke? If anyone here has the least IOTA of responsibility, I have some cans I’d like you to pick up. I can make you feel a whole lot better. 😉

  254. Thanks Marty for the yellow card to OT VIII!

  255. Thank you, Marty, for that wonderful post!!
    From the bottom of my heart,

  256. I second (third?) that.
    Cat Daddy ♥ purrs and claws included.

  257. H.H. the Dalai Lama speaks
    I suggest for all Scientologists to listen carefully.
    Also replay is possible.

  258. Very interesting indeed.

    For the last HOUR it averaged around 600, never went below 550 and ist again over 600!!!

    Look at the time stamps of our posts – the interest is STABLE.

  259. I knew his name – didn’t want to “out” him as I have never heard him mention scientology (although I know that most if not all of the Whalins are still on lines in cos.) I know his mom’s name too, but …. :/

  260. I do get you point, and very much so.

    Scientology ( the philosophy ) describes laws of theta.

    It does not have a monopoly on theta.

  261. martyrathbun09

    Stay tuned Zealot. Soon I’ll detail how your leader is in fact funded by big pharma. You’ve been had son.

  262. martyrathbun09

    “When you come to a fork in the road, take it.”
    Yogi Berra

  263. Perhaps the readers of this blog will enjoy this essay:

    It rapidly summarizes work done on the subject of cellular memory, including

    – Penfield’s 1920 work on demonstrating the theory that engrams (contained in individual cells of the brain) contain memory – if one removed the offending cells then epileptic patients stopped having seizures

    – Lashley’s 1950s work to prove/disprove the theory – resulting in the conclusion that memory is not confined to particular cells or even particular sections of the brain.

    – Pibram’s 1960s work demonstrating that memory appears to be distributed throughout the brain and his hypothesis that mind operates in a holographic manner.

    – Subsequent work supporting the virtual image aspect of mind and brain as filtering / recognition systems that are not confined to selective cells or cell aggregations.

    – Alain Aspect’s work demonstrating simultaneous communication between quanta.

    – Bohm’s hypothesis that our brains operate as a holographic frequency analyzer, decoding projections from a more fundamental dimension. Bohm concludes that even space and time are constructs of the human brain, and they may not exist as we perceive them.

    All of this is expressive of the idea of a holographic universe: “The holographic model of the universe views matter as the constructive and destructive interference patterns created by interacting energy waves. Standing waves occur when a wavefront takes on a stationary appearance. Energy continues to pass through the system, however, because each successive wave takes exactly the same position of the one before, there is an illusion of stability. Holograms depend on standing waves for their existence.”

    And this finding from Prigogine (1977): Society can be viewed as an open system exchanging energy with the environment. Fluctuations can be created by a small group of people, and this in turn has the potential to change society as a whole. If the perturbations exceed society’s ability to “dampen” the fluctuations, then a new level of social order can evolve. As social organization becomes increasingly complex, it becomes more likely that small perturbations can lead to higher orders of complexity. Social change and evolution will happen at an ever increasing pace.

    IMO it is impossible to assert that LRH alone found the truths he did in Dianetics and Scientology, especially when one considers the world to be fully interconnected on a sweeping scale. Rather, LRH rode the crest of a wave of thought or implications as a grand explorer. And is the past really fixed? Is it really the past? Or is it now but just not the now we are sharing focus on?

    How powerful is an idea anyway?

  264. martyrathbun09

    I guess it was lost on you that this post had nothing to do with adopting some other tech. It had to do with communicating and working with people of all disciplines. Well, I guess you’ve contributed greatly to this post – you’ve proved its premise.

  265. Here’s one more link that explores these concepts from a consciousness point of view:

  266. The other (more) famous quote from Elvis about Scientology (besides the one about all head/ no heart mentioned above), uttered after leaving a meeting that Priscilla had convinced him to attend was, “All them sons of bitches want is my money.”

    I know LRH supported the recruitment of celebrities for their PR value and their ability to raise the profile of CoS. However, I wonder now if the CoM looks at celebrities as cash cows or PR trophies – or a mix of both. How much do you think Tom Cruise or JT have been regged for or given to the cult over the years? Are they really regged or is it far more subtle with celebs and they get the kid glove treatment when it comes to IAS and other regging for processing, courses, etc..? They probably fork it over with gentle suggestions, but if they don’t I’m sure some more forceful regging methods might be applied?

    I’ve just wondered if TC was also giving large amounts of money to the cult while at the same time spent 2 years as the unofficial celebrity spokesperson for the cult – giving it more media coverage than it had gotten in years (and usually not the good kind). Does DM think of the PR efforts on behalf of the church as a bigger donation that hard cash? How hard does he or doesn’t he push his celebrity adherents to discuss/promote CoS in the media and in their personal relationship with other celebs? You always here rumors about celeb Scientologist pushing others to join or take a course at the CC, in fact their are rumors that TC and others specifically cultivate friendships with certain celebs for the sole purpose of trying to recruitment into the CoS. (Beckhams, Oprah, Will Smith, etc… rumors have flown for years that his entire reason for becoming buddies with many of them was to get them into the cult as a favor to DM.) Does this ring true with you Marty? Or am I off the mark?

  267. martyrathbun09

    You are sounding more and more like a lemming.

  268. martyrathbun09

    Another priest.

  269. It’s fascinating the infinite ways you can justify not being willing to duplicate Dianietics and Scientology which is actually synonymous with the infinite number of ways you can validate MEST. “The Duplicator”

  270. martyrathbun09

    Splog, I think you are on the right track.

  271. martyrathbun09

    Thompkins and Bird were influenced by Hubbard.

  272. martyrathbun09

    Good point.

  273. martyrathbun09

    Margaret, thank you for this important piece of historic research. It is very telling.

  274. martyrathbun09

    to each his own

  275. Dave — Can you really be sure no Feshbachs are participating here?
    BTW, love your definition of upstat: “have (had?) a lot of money and give it to me.” Right out of the Vulture Culture Dictionary ™.

  276. martyrathbun09

    V, good observations. That is why I said LRH explained the “new discovery” revealed in the first several minutes 58 years ago – albeit in totally different terms, in terms of the immortal mind/thetan. My point is, look where they are going with the third and fourth dynamic, and compare that to the third and fourth dynamic of c of m and its members. And that is to be condemned? While c of m creates unthinking, intolerant, success for self at any cost, automotans? I think it is a travesty of unprecedented dimension.

  277. Thought Provoking

    Okay, here I go…

    (They’re going to laugh at me…I know they are going to laugh at me.)

    I know for a fact that plants feel pain! YES, I witnessed it with personal observation.

    About 25 years ago I happened to be barbequing in my yard and I was using one of those electric charcoal starters. Once the charcoal got going I removed the starter and in doing so it accidentally brushed upon the leaves of a tree in my yard, burning the leaves.

    How I knew this occurred is that the leaves SCREAMED when it happened. I was both surprised and amazed and instantly recalled the tomatoe experiments, thinking maybe LRH was on to something back then.

    Since then I have been careful not to burn my plants and try to duplicate their needs. Reading up on them before pruning etc. They seem to like it and I get lots of comliments from the neighbors.

    I’m not being sarcastic, this really happened! 🙂

  278. “There’s only three types of people in this world”
    “Those who can count…and those who can’t”
    David LaCroix

  279. martyrathbun09

    I’m not laughing, I’m understanding and appreciating you much more than even I did before.

  280. martyrathbun09

    Unity, you pretty much nailed it

  281. martyrathbun09

    That blows charge.

  282. Thanks Marty,

    From what I know so far, I don’t think we have much choice.

    Ron says the levels above VIII exist, he hints that they are researched, written up and need to be packaged and released. I haven’t read anything public issue that says he DID them himself other than inferring he probably did them to research them). You’ve posted that the written levels are a mess and not releasable anytime soon.

    Well, that can only mean one thing:

    When I get to VIII, I need to get off my fat arse, study the entire subject front to back and move from research effect to research cause.


  283. Nah, that’s me 🙂

    splog, the Snarky Pedantic Lazy Old Git

  284. Hubbard said Dianetics is a science. No science can afford to be static indefinitely. Science is about constant reevaluation of data and its compatibility with established theories and models.
    Add to that the fact that most science is interdisciplinary nowadays, e.g. biology is very dependent on the progress made in chemistry, and chemists in turn depend very much on the results from physics.
    Insofar, Mr. Rathbun is right that those who close their eyes to any progress made in other fields of research have ultimately spelled death to their own fields of research.

  285. In the 35 years I was active in the church, I met many people with heart. I remember you as a person with heart OTDT and I like to think I had it too. One problem was that “under orders” many good people dramatised “no sympathy” and lost that heart (and many did not lose it).

    Elvis? A great artist, and very, VERY at effect. Anything he is alleged to have said could have been after eating three banana, bacon and peanut butter sandwhiches.

  286. Thought Provoking

    If you are a representative of Pierre’s product of OT, then I am about as interested as I would be in DM’s Scientology at any level. NOT AT ALL!

  287. StandardTechZealot,
    Davey never was and never will be smart enough to cause all evil but he will always be a master in altering Tech and have degraded beings working for him, believing he changed it for the better. He will always have minions that can’t read stats, don’t know VFP’s, alter F/N’s and back again, force abortions and divorces, declare 48 out 50 LRH hired personnel, etc. Those that make a nice show of generalisation on psychiatry, forgot LRH build on the work of Freud, have no idea of the outstanding research of psychs like prof. dr. Ivan Wolffers, prof. dr. Joseph Glenmullen, prof. dr. Loren Mosher, prof. dr. Thomas S. Szasz, prof. dr. T. Dehue and many others, nor what their work has accomplished over the past 5 years in academic and governmental awareness of psychiatric and pharmaceutical abuse and how important those works are in de PTSing the 4th dynamic. Those even assume to know all universes, but they’re not getting to know mine, not for a long time.

  288. eyes wide open

    Thank you for the interesting post Marty.
    After years in Scientology and the Sea Org, I had the view that the only tech was LRH’s tech and that to even glance sideways at another philosopher or body of technology was not only heinous but also a personal failing .
    Since being OUT, my view has changed dramatically. This was spurred on by the fact that I realised that I had not only been kept out of the loop with modern society for years (locked up at Gilman Hot Springs) but I had become so narrow minded and unaccepting of others and their efforts to find workable technology to improve life, that I would shy away from virtually all communication on the subject of religion, self-help and self-improvement. The result? I felt terribly alone.
    I decided to open my eyes. Take of the blinders. I started to read books that are popular (or not) in self help and religion today – and came to some very interesting conclusions:
    1. Much of LRH’s tech is communicated by others in different writings. They often say it with different terminology, but it is there. Even something as simple as “Confusion and the Stable Datum” can be found in books from many different authors – with no reference to LRH. I am reading a wonderful book about happiness from the Dalai Lama at the moment. I see much LRH tech here too.
    2. Often, the way that a piece of technology is communicated by a non-LRH author, puts a new light on the subject. A different way of viewing it. A way to get more out of that single datum. Does that make it wrong to read it? Does that make it wrong to apply it? No – it does not. LRH never considered himself or his technology to be in an ivory tower. He said the point is that it is a workable technology. He said that he gleaned it from many different sources from the East and the West.
    3. Lastly, I realised that there is no way that Scientology can ever “Clear the Planet” or come even close to it if they do not embrace today’s world and society. And by this I do not mean having extravagantly and lavishly built churches. I mean by being in touch and in UNDERSTANDING of the man on the street. That man (or woman) is very receptive to information if you use a little empathy and understanding. Isn’t THAT what Scientology is all about?
    Sorry for being so long winded.

  289. Thought Provoking

    Well stated!

  290. Thanks for the memories. Loved those times, loved SFO!

  291. Thought Provoking


    Tara got my intention when I meant LRH was source. I meant source of HIS tech.

    I tend to follow the idea that we have the tools to expand on that and take it further if we choose. Isn’t that essentially what LRH did in the beginning, expand on ideas of others before him?

  292. Thought Provoking

    Me too, Jewel!

  293. Thought Provoking

    Somehow this makes me feel duplicated in my certainty that Scientologist would never chose DM over LRH if they understood what was really going on at the top. 🙂

  294. Centuries, decades, whatever. Time is simply an illusion we use to continue not to know what we ourselves continually create. Its a game, pretend not to know, so that there is something to do.

    The point of the video was the commonality of human existence and the developing connections and possibility of solutions.

    This is something that the church seems to be vectoring away from.

    PTS/SP technology being used to exclude rather than handle.

    Standard Tech morphing from the Class 8 notion of being what works without arbitraries to what is approved by the high priests.

    Admin policy becoming law rather than tools.

    Yes the view point that many of us have that places our spiritual perceptions and values higher than MEST ones is optimum. But coming at the same “problem” from the opposite direction has value.

    I’m typing this with silly looking little sausages connected to funny reaching protuberances, fueled by the flesh of other life forms. I’m not in a position to scoff at the less spiritual aspects of my existence. In fact I rather enjoy living in meat and the constraints of condensed thought (matter). Science is simply another way to understand part of life.

    It is in all viewpoints that the truth is available, excluding some is to not is.


  295. Thought Provoking

    Very interesting reseach and observations. I’d love to hear more about how these changes evolved if anyone happens to have data on it.

  296. Sorry, not me.

    Everyone else. I meant all people, but really I would suppose that it should be that if we wish to conclude “the game” we would need to completely correctly determine ownership of all of MEST. (and probably thought and memory too!)

    My feeling though as expressed in my statement “And in the end we don’t “make it” if everyone else doesnt”, is that scientology can not be a tool just for us wise and good folk, because what ever we leave behind will come back to haunt us!

  297. The reference was in the original OEC Volumes. I don’t have the volumes and I’m not sure if it was later removed. My memory tells me it might have been volume 3 but I wouldn’t swear on it – might be another volume. I also can’t recall the policy title. It might take some digging by someone who has the volumes. Any volunteers?

  298. And these things are nowhere to be found on the net. You know I insist on Acknowledgements in books and quotes being rightly atributed. Just like I want to see acknowledgements for all people that worked at a certain piece of the Tech, I want to see acknowledgement for Hubbard where that is due. It is the Scientific and Historic principle I hold dear. If Hubbard is the origonator of this kind of research there is a task for you Independents to gibe it it’s rightfull place. Do you have a reference Marty or is it to be found in their book ?

  299. “one and only life”.

    That is a true statement in a certain context. Living in that body, that identity, it is true.

    Granted it is a smaller context than many of us are aware of. But living as a composite life form it has value.

    Will you or I or anyone ever be the same person again? Should I live my life as if it doesnt matter? (Oh I’ll just get another body.)

    It is a human notion. Something that we all are part of. Something that some of us can see from a larger overview.

  300. Who doesn’t like LRH – where’s cause?

  301. Sure.

    By the way there are of course many subjects and sources that point a light to truth and even a ladder to it, not just scientology, e.g. the vedas, buddha, etc. (Whether or not these are more effective and have a higher level of truth to scio is another thing entirely…)

    I just don’t think sciences that look at physical aspects get close because there is a massive underlying untruth within their subject – that MEST is source of creation.

    As a side note to this which some may find interesting, I remember speaking to a staff member who was certain he was a reincarnated scientologist from his past life and had actually completely exteriorized from the MEST universe in the very early 50’s from processing. I was talking to him about the bhagavad gita and truth in other subjects and his response was along the lines of “scio is the only one that really frees you”. He was also talking from a viewpoint of having a lot of whole track experience and recall of. Take that for what it is, one beings truth.

    I also remember seeing a documentary about yogi’s in tibet, and when asked about how many past lives he could remember, one yogi responded that he doesn’t want to say, because you wouldn’t believe him if he did, but it’s a long time.

    When you ask a scientist about how long they’ve lived, what answer do you tend to get?

    And so what level of truth are they operating at?

  302. Tony I have a feeling I am many. I come from a Roman Chatolic enviroment but it was the most left wing and progersive orïentated in Europe namely the south of the Netherlands. I was not raised Roman Chatolic though but liberal, democratic yet with a firm hand where needed. I long thought I was an Atheïst. That is still the platform from where I like to view things. I red up on Satanism, Wiccan and Paeganism. But I always stayed instinctively stayed away from dabbling with “ghosts” . I looked at many Spiritual Paths. I do not become a something but I rather take from it what that moment in time.

    My Motto: Keep what benefits you, do away with what holds you back.


  303. Conversations can start one place and lead in other directions. However, this one did not begin as a Which came first — the chicken or the egg? debate about theta vs. MEST. It started as a conversation about the value of communicating freely and living IN the world, not apart from it.

    Many of us here (although possibly not all) assume or postulate the existence of both MEST and theta. Some of theta and some of MEST can be measured. But, as Veritas points out, human beings have not yet figured out a way to isolate and measure all of either quantity. That’s a VERY interesting, although different, topic, that has captured my interest for some time now.

    I think it’s worthwhile observing that the majority of those commenting here agree we find it reasonable to observe, discuss, measure, report, and compare the qualities of theta and MEST, especially as they are related to each other. I think we also agree that learning starts with looking and observing.

    The way NOT to learn anything is to hole up on an intellectual and emotional and spiritual island and not permit any outside influences to float across the water from the outside world or to make any journeys off the island. To mix my metaphors, Scientologists should never have been asked to wear mental burkas. And IMHO those who agreed to do so should NEVER have done so.

    I don’t care how many OT levels they completed or how many statuses they acquired or how many millions they have donated to the Co$ or how carefully they have protected themselves from simple conversations about the topics of the day with others who inhabit this planet. That is not Scientology. It is a paranoid cult that will commit any crimes necessary to keep its members and its prisoners and, yes, even its leaders, from looking and observing.

    Just Me

  304. STZ,
    Totally agreed on the Standard Tech, but it’s not found in David Mestology’s exchange condition 1, alter-ised Vulture Empires Golden Ages turned to showers. One is supposed to move on up higher when picking up the cans as you mention, not just fly solo ruds.

  305. JM — Brilliant. Cogent. Just You…

  306. I am a spiritual drifter with a bohemian aprouch towards “MEST” ;).

    Yes without the orinizational stuff and KSW and some opinions about other groups in socïety that Scientology has It could work for me. I will still have Anon principles though. Don’t mess with ma Internet ! Free Speech ! No secrets ! And rightfully atributting work. And the sciences as pilars for progress in socïety. Neuroplasticity is a chance to change the fields of psychology and Psychiatry. I do believe in an overall reduction of pills but not the EXTREMIST view that all pills must go. I would adhere to the Scandinavian model that is relaxed and pragmatic. Or the model in my country. We are supose to be the 5th happiest people on the planet and our healthsystem costs half of that person than in the USA and standards are the same.

    But first DM must be gone and the Cof$ on its knees paying out compensations and paying back donations.

    DM Bubba is waiying for you, CD

  307. That makes two of us 😉

  308. Thought Provoking

    I agree with your general point regarding learning from non-Scientologist and the value that that holds but I disagree that the tech does not cover the subject of non-violent comm. It may not cover specific dialogue but it does cover general data. It is when we connect all the data that we can then use all the tools. Sometimes we need help connecting the data and a source, exterior to an individual can be quite helpful, Scientologist or not.

    For example, I used to have problems in my job which related to communication. After doing KTL, people started originating how much easier it was to communicate with me, the same people that I always had flaps with. As a result I was happy with my KTL product.

    Later on, I did pro TRs and when getting my final checkout from the Senior CS, she very politely indicated that she didn’t know me at all or how I usually communicated but from her observation my ability to 8C was in but I seemed almost miltant. You see, I had the mechanics but was missing the most important point, ARC.

    WOW, did I have a reality adjustment! I had never spotted that in myself but when she said it, I scanned my usual operating basis and it was true! I have to say, it completely caved me in. It was completely the opposite of what I wanted to be and it really pushed my buttons so bad that I truly wanted to blow the course, never to return again.

    I recognized this as a button and the next day forced myself to call the OES and tell him what was going on. I knew that her comment had hit a very unflat button and that the way out was the way through. I also knew this valence triggered when hitting against unwillingness (specifically recalcitrant students). I arranged to have another teacher bullbait the heck out of me on this button so I could blow the charge. Every time I went into grief, she flunked me and more charge blew. Needless to say we got it all, I did get through this button and drill and it was the best thing that every happened to be. It completely blew the valence and I have never had trouble since. I now have a very high ability to grant beingness which has been commented on by Scientologists and non-Scientologists alike.

    For me, this is one of the positive things about a multi-dimensional viewpoint. The experience and data of others is often quite valuable in solving our individual problems in life. I am glad that you were able to improve in your communications as well.

  309. I have always found the Germans and German Anons to be fair in their critisism. They really think things through. Church of Scientology for example rejected the internet with that they rejected progress and that became their “Vietnam”

  310. Thought Provoking

    Holy Cow…running out for popcorn and Milk Duds!

  311. Some say that by not liking LRH you are allready a squirrel 😉

  312. Thought Provoking

    “Scientologists should never have been asked to wear mental burkas. And IMHO those who agreed to do so should NEVER have done so. ”

    That is my favorite comment of today. 🙂

  313. Dittos Joe,

    In 1970 and beyond, the SF evening Academy was PACKED with students. It took Don Rowley 15 minutes to call the roll! And Waldo was cool – where is he now?

    On a series of earlier comments – I don’t know why OT VIII gets so much bashing here. Seems to me he’s mostly saying the BPC people have on Scientology is a result of having experienced the mis-application of Scientology. Exercising empathy (I hope), I also sense in his comments the same extreme frustration and anger I think we all feel about the mis-application – perversion is a better word – of this incredible body of knowledge by its current management.

    OT VIII, feel free to correct me if I’m wrong in my interpretation of where you’re coming from.


  314. StandardTechZealot,
    Are you asking about having some of Jesse’s pot that was planted by OSA?

  315. I guess people try scientology and find it works for them, on a personal spiritual level. I personally dont care if the guys who worked on the Apollo program have reviewed Scientology and given it a stamp of scientific approval.
    You are free to present Scientology to these rocket scientists and get them to study it if you are curious to hear what they say. There is nothing stopping you.
    What I;m saying is- who’s responsibility is it to get approval from “scientists” for Scientology? I personally am not interested. It would just be a bunch of complexities and arguments and debate. I already know without all that.
    Maybe because you are interested it is your responsibility. That sort of how it works.

  316. OT8~So where you at on the training side of the Bridge?

  317. “Basically, there may be advances in the science of the brain, but Scientology is not physics.”

    You forgot the mind, Oh and this is funny In my country they use Galvanistic Skin Response to detect Psychopaths.

  318. Too cute for words

    This is exciting news!! That’s what I thought! Seeing the Standard Tech logo with a plastered Golden Age of Tech on top is like a play out of Big Pharma’s playbook. ie: taking something natural and altering it so you can trademark and market it under a new name for huge profits (although it’s not healthy for you like the natural product is). Can’t wait for the big reveal!

  319. My only answer to this type of comment is:

    “There is a condition worse than blindness, and that is seeing something that isn’t there.”

    Church scientologists are very good at not observing what they should (or, rather, not-ising their observation to such a degree that they think they have seen something else).

    From this compulsory not-is comes the failure to be able to see something as it is. It is a compulsion to add either a bad intention (for outsiders) or a good intention (for COB).

    Back to lurking again …

  320. martyrathbun09


  321. martyrathbun09

    CD, I saw some biography research when I was in the church. Sorry, I can’t remember the citation. It could have been bullshit, but at the time it looked pretty convincing.

  322. That was a quick censor deletion, what’s your problem? what is it that you are afraid will happen if you post my comments? you have my email, enlighten me.
    I mean you are all about “free and open communication”

  323. martyrathbun09

    John D, you answer is in the book Sciencie of Survival. It also happens to be in Don Migel Ruiz’s The Four Agreements. It also happens to be in the Tao. Adios.

  324. Your eyes are truely wide open.

  325. Yes! Grade 0 is possibly the most revolutionary tech ever proposed…can you imagine? Talk freely with anyone on any subject? Astounding!

    Who wouldn’t want to practice that?

  326. When I was “in” I looked to Scientology for my answers and closed my thinking to to other options. As a result of this, I failed to do thorough research and discover the most helpful way to deal with several situations. This is no invalidation of what Scientology does, but it does not do everything. One situation was a debilitating condition which the psyches call Obsessive Compulsive Disorder. Perhaps auditing would have eventually worked to correct this, but after 8 or so intensives, it was not. The person eventually refused any more auditing which forced me to look into other options. I had the neurotransmitter levels in the brain checked and, as a result, have used supplements of seratonin and GABA with much improvement. I also dealt with a severe reading problem. In the church, the person was put on confront drills which caved them in and created lots of BPC. The person finally did a vision therapy program which brought about desired change in both reading and tone level. These are valid therapies and have changed our lives. They are physical solutions, but have affected gains in the mental and spiritual, as well. It’s a composite being.

  327. No, not laughin´, Thought Provoking. What you say is real, dear.

  328. Just Me, Did I tell you I kinda like you? A lot. Love

  329. “I don’t know why these Mythbuster people you speak of never heard of Hubbard’s research on plants or why they heard or didn’t hear about anything.”

    This one is simple: regardless of the topic, no one knows about Hubbard’s “research” because what he did was not “research” by any acceptable, recognized, scientific definition or method of performing research.

  330. I am gona throw in a new postulate lol. You might want to hook up with this Pasychiatrist. Yes I said Psychiatrist ;).

  331. I think he was a ClXII at Flag, right OTVIII?

  332. Be like the honey bee

  333. Really? So is that what “OT” is all about – being arrogant, condescending, and holier-than-thou? If so, then forgive me if I want no part of it.

  334. You know Marty I guess what’s happened with the CoM could be boiled down to a word: Individuation.

  335. Individuation as defined as “a separation from knowingness”.

  336. I believe the link may have been Dr. Hal Puthoff … Stanford physicist, SRI researcher, and OT Scientologist from late 60s to mid-70s.

    According to Peter Tompkins and Christopher Bird, in “The Secret Life of Plants”, while at SRI, Puthoff did experiments with chicken eggs. Using an e-meter (invented by L. Ron Hubbard and used in the practices of Scientology), he attempted to see if an egg would react if another was broken nearby.
    – Tompkins, Peter and Bird, Christopher, The Secret Life of Plants, Harper and Row, 1973, pg 29.

  337. Scott Campbell


    Thanks buddy. I’ll take a look.

    ML, Scott

  338. Scott Campbell

    Thanks Dave. Nice to “Meet” you, then.

    Stay tuned.

    I’m on to something here…


  339. You can say, do and look at many different opinions and viewpoints BUT in my eyes (and that is what’s important-what is real to YOU)

    By exiting the CURRENT C of S you are getting rid of SUPPRESSION on your lines, PLAIN and SIMPLE. Those of you lurking or thinking or leaving SCN, watch what happens when you do finally leave SCN.

    Something magical happens, you get YOUR life back and YOU get your self-determinism back.. Try it and see for yourself. It’s a big step for some but easy for others.

    The current C of S and DM has turned the orgs into crush reg machine and people are LEAVING everyday or just not going back.

  340. martyrathbun09

    CD, good example. Miscavige would have the man burnt at the stake. What he is talking about is right along the line of research Ken Wilbur so thoroughly examines – the subjective, the soul, and the importance of the acknowledgement of them in furthering WISDOM.

  341. OTVIII,
    I wasn’t going to comment on any of your earlier posts but now you’ve really missed the mark with your statement “I don’t drink my philosophy straight from the bottle of a hillbilly who died of drug abuse.” What utter snobishness.
    Because of my lifetime involvement with equines and my preference for living in rural places, my life includes and has always included a certain number of so-called rednecks and cowboys/cowgirls. You could stand to learn from these down to earth, tell it like it is, loyal, hard working, earthy philosophers. They would spot your BS in a New York second. You think way too much of yourself.
    Marsha Pearlman Sorensen OTIII , Class 6 Auditor, ex-AOLA staff

  342. Margaret, I found your comments on Advance Magazine intertesting, particularly since I edited the magazine in the late 1970’s. I think what you are describing here is the general decline of Scientology publication and promotion over the years. I took over Advance Magazine from David Ziff, a man who was familiar both with magazine publication (his family owns Ziff-Davis) and with religious history (he had been a Buddhist before Scientology). He had a concept of Scientology promotion which was very eclectic, very inclusive, very much connected to the world and to contemporary thought and activities. When I took over the magazine (and actually I was editing several magazines at the time), I tried to carry this on. I always thought of Advance not as “management’s magazine” but as the magazine of OTs. So contributions from OTs were welcomed, in the form of stories, poetry, artwork, interviews and so on. I started a section called “OTs in Action.” I felt that what we should put attention on was not vague wins like “my space expanded” and so on, but on what OTs actually DID with their abilities. Hence the articles about Ingo Swann, Hal Puthoff and others. And I had many LRH commended issues. And the “spiritual history” articles made the magazine more inclusive, more eclectic. But the pressure was always there to make it more commercial.

    The decline over the years was due to several things. One was Miscavige’s destruction of marketing, which went from 50 staff (in the late 1980s) to half a dozen by the time I left in 2005. This meant that there was no longer an Advance Magazine Editor, for instance. It was written by ad copywriters and designed by ad designers. And so the content degraded down to a promotion piece. Staff (and management) no longer saw it as “the magazine of OTs” but as a management mouthpiece – a way to make money. So they put the minimum possible content to make it still look like a magazine, while it is really nothing more than a glorified flier. And of course no contribution from OTs is wanted or needed. And the staff who put it together are totally isolated from the world.

  343. hey marty,

    LOL. what was it about the sai baba video i posted that made you approve it and then delete it?

  344. One big change in 78-79 at Int. Management at Flag was that all of our promotion material and magazines (including Advance) suddenly had to be approved by LRH. There must have been some legal threats regarding implied or promised gains from Scientology as promoted in it’s literature. We had to take out anything that implied a definite result. At the same time we were told not to list full names of people on success stories.

  345. Believe it or not Cat Daddy, the Anon principles (of which you speak) are the same as Scientology principles at their core. Free Speech is an attempt to get to the Truth and allow wide and broad communication to occur. If the CoS’ers were really practicing Scientology, they would be bringing milk and cookies to the protesters and standing alongside them, encouraging all to make the whole truth known — whatever it may be.

    When one duplicates duplication, when one as-is’es as-is-ness, one realizes that all of these attempts by the organization to grow and survive — however poorly, inananely , and even harmfully and dangerously — are so thoroughly secondary and even opposite to what Scientology — the subject — is all about, that one can only shake one’s head in astonishment.

    I’m with you on your goal #1 to remove Miscavige — or minimally, render him powerless through exposure of his corruption and harm.

    But the bigger goal, in my view, is to create a distinction in the public’s mind between the subject of Scientology, and the organization/group called (Church of) Scientology.

    Why? Because if Anonymous really wants to expose the Truth, then that is a deeper and more profound Truth that they have not, as yet, come to terms with. (Present company perhaps excepted.)

  346. A wonderful post and discussion.

    Speaking of neuroplasticity, I was struck earlier this year by the story of a child who recovered after having one hemisphere of her brain removed. Because of her youth, the remaining hemisphere learned how to undertake the roles usually played by the whole brain.

  347. Zea-lot or See-Nothing:

    Are you saying you, p-e-r-s-o-n-a-l-l-y, KNOW that “psychiatry is the sole cause of crime in this and indeed all universes”? In this case, you are way ahead of all of us. Unless, of course, you are simply just q-u-o-t-i-n-g something without any understanding. In this case you sound like a cultist, unable to LOOK at two sides of a coin.

    You seem to have very little confidence in the workability of actual LRH tech. No, I’m not referring to some high OT Levels – actual basics, like Communication. Did you ever hear of a certain communication course that has an amazing EP (no, I didn’t mean Extratheatrical Perceptions, dude. I’m talking Scientologeese and meant End Phenomena). That EP is the Ability to Handle ANY Situation With Communication Alone! The c of m proves daily – and so do you – that it is utterly incapable of producing this EP. Instead it has a “War Chest” to wage a war (did I hear a …. click … ? … good cognition! You wouldn’t need one if it could). Look at your “invitation” to pick up the cans. The ARC contained in it is just slightly below the required level to get a PC into and not out of session.

    Did you not notice that the people on this blog actually hold LRH in a much higher esteem than the c of m does? And, in my opinion, this includes Behar and Sweeney and all the Special People (SP) and Wise Old Gentlemen (WOG) you refer to so reverently. What do you think communication with all of them will do? Ah, you no longer learn that A-R-C produces Understanding.

    If you are such a zea-lot of LRH tech, you certainly know the datum that any attacks are produced in-house, that in-tech course rooms fill within a week without promotion – I know, you are lacking mass – you don’t see it happening. But haven’t you noticed that the living conditions of staff and particularly SO members have been degrading for decades? And don’t you know that an unchanging statistic over a long period of time is Danger! No, a change downwards does not count as “changing” (… man, I really have to tell you everything here).

    Could it be that you are just a new-born, still-wet-behind-the-ears DM/OSA bot? Sorry boy or girl, then you are wrong in this place. Didn’t you realize this blog has a certain “entry age” and that its “membership” is made up of some of the finest old-timers? The “entry age” seems to be somewhere, on average, between 20 – 30 years in Scientology with a good number of “members” spending that much time on staff and/or in the SO. True, there are some serious dudes among this crowd, some more fearsome than others – only question is “to who”? But they have a real desire to see people free to raise to greater heights and are willing to take a few blocks out of the road to achieve that.

    So, little DM/OSA-bot kid, although I have never treated my kids this way I think it is time to talk at your reality level so that I get through:

    Kids are to remain quiet when adults talk.


  348. Tony DePhillips

    Hi Marsha,
    Is this your first announcement of being openly out of the church?
    If so, Hip hip hurray!!

  349. Wayne Froemke (AKA "Safe")

    Excellent! You were truly fortunate to have a really observant Senior CS. That is not typical.

    I have noticed this “militant”-like communication with many church Scientologists, most notably from many Staff … not compassionate. This falls in line with the discussion on empathy here.

    I’m the first one to admit my own communication was militant like too! I’m still working on this, also. Now I have a new conciousness about it.

    For you, the missing ingredient was ARC. For me too, and namely affinity or compassion. The “trick” for me was to learn ways which lead me to relating to others in a more compassionate way.

    A key area where I see Marshall B. Rosenberg’s tech helping one is how does one communicate their disagreement or upset to others without being offensive or nullifying others and instead, truly connecting with the other without ARC breaking them, and create greater understanding.

    As with Scientology and the need to connect people to its source (LRH) for full in-depth understanding, the same goes for MBR’s Tech (and it is tech). IMO, I believe a Scientologist will never realize this is a lacuna in Scientology until they actually listen to and understand Marshall first.

    MBR has a great sense of humor too, like LRH. He is an excellent speaker and communicator with an aliveness that energizes the soul, like LRH. Listening, you just know right away he’s speaking truth.

    Perhaps the magnitude of importance of MBR’s tech may not be as important as Scientology for freeing a soul, but it’s important enough where it could create world peace and a gargantuan improvement in work and personal relationships, if applied. (Non-Scientologists don’t ridge on the subject either.)

    Though MBR got a doctorate degree in clinical psychology, he doesn’t practice it because he doesn’t believe in the “mental illness” point of view of therapy. He’s also a friend of Dr Thomas Szasz.

  350. Zealot wrote: “If anyone here has the least IOTA of responsibility, I have some cans I’d like you to pick up. I can make you feel a whole lot better.”

    Does that include having my head bashed into the wall, or do I have to pay extra for that?

    And do I get leniency if I can make the needle swing three times on my own, or do I still have to undergo crush reg’ing and sec-checking in order to be told which cognitions I’m not allowed to have?

  351. It is HOW he says it, Publius – full of self, lacking in empathy and, in short, not a good advertisement for scientology.

  352. Wayne Froemke (AKA "Safe")

    I don’t understand Marty’s sentence.

    “How you to me on this one is totally lost on me.”

    It seems there is a missing word in the above sentence.

    I know I’ve done this myself where my mind is moving faster than my typing fingers and a word can accidently get left out which creates a puzzling sentence. lol.

  353. Unlike others on this blog.

  354. The invented thing. Well I let it slip this time.

  355. Theo Sismanides

    Hi Marty, wanted to write since yesterday on this post, but didn’t have the time. I watched the video and I can say I should watch that again and again.

    First of all and I don’t know if this is taken up in comments above (I read quite a few in the beginning of the post) I should clear up the word Empathy. I have even started a discussion on FB about it, got definitions, studied them. So I am asking for any help here possible. Interestingly enough we don’t have a commonly used word in Greek, conveying that concept: Empathy.

    On your post and the issue that arises for those hard core Scientologists who cannot think with what you promote here. I am in agreement and actually I am very happy since we are finally connecting the world with Scietnology. After the dark years of Mgmt now we have points of real dissemination of Scientology to the world.

    Things are happening and this video and the word empathic have kept me thinking more and more as to what we are doing here finally.

    We are actually a good example of Scientologists. Finally, people will not have to say much because we communicate with them.

    And I never wanted to be part of a team who are afraid to try things and who don’t even have the judgement to use the tech to move on in life.

    So, I am all in agreement and actually this is a starting point, a new one for all of us AND for Scientology, finally. I think LRH will be proud of us for this. He was really ahead of his times. So can we. So, thanks a lot.

  356. Wayne Froemke (AKA "Safe")


    I just want to let you know I truly get your message, “Integrate or Disintegrate.”

    Thank you so much for saying this!


    Thank you for pointing out Ken Wilber. This lead me to Marshall Rosenberg’s nonviolent communication tech.

    I’ll be forever grateful for Marty’s post and your comment as it is changing my communication style for the better. (I hope! ha!)

  357. WW,
    There are different avenues and things to do. Technically, as an FEBC, Ron views me as an auditor on the 3rd dynamic. Sitting down in a room with someone holding the cans isn’t an end-all thing. But it’s a huge begining. Not nearly enough is being done in that department. But I’ll agree, there’s is much else to be done. True.

  358. Great post, Jewel.

    One thing to think about, also, is that when Dianetics came on the scene in the ’50s, everyone who got involved had some earlier context/experience from which to draw. The tech is an alignment of earlier tech, which Ron acknowledges on Science of Survival, as well as in so many other places.

    I am a second-generation Scientologist – I never was anything but. I never went to Sunday school, never went to any other church, and did my Comm Course before I was ten. This turned out to be a blessing and a curse. The blessing, of course, is that I avoided a lot of problems by knowing Study Tech, avoiding drugs like the plague (all my contemporaries in HS and later were swimming in Pot, Acid, Angel Dust, you name it – I was the “weird” one, because I eschewed drugs).

    The curse was that I did not have the background on which to hang the truths of Scientology. When you read Ron, he references Christianity, Hinduism, Buddhism, various philosophers, various sciences, military, etc. On course, when you run up against a reference to, say, Schopenhauer, the first time you come across it, you look up the name, and get a general idea of his philosophy. When you run across it again, maybe with Ron referencing some other part of Schopenhauer’s philosophy, you need to dive deeper – get an understanding of basic philosophy, context of the times he wrote it, how his work was received, etc. The third time, you will dig even deeper – because the definition of what is a cleared word differs based on how the word or concept is used, and its relative importance to the text. In the case of Schopenhauer, if Ron mentions the name in passing, then a general lookup is needed. However, when he compares a Scn point against a Schopenhauer point, you need to dive deeper. But, in my case, I spent, I think, two days wading through the works of Schopenhauer. Enough to continue on course, but certainly not even close to a grounding in his work.

    I am significantly older now, and have back-filled a lot of my education, and that has absolutely helped my understanding and grasp of Scientology, as well as humanity.

    I think this is significant for children of Scientologists. If I were to design a course of action for Scientology children to follow, I would absolutely ensure they had the comm course and Student Hat, and other basic courses. I would ensure they get through high school, and take it seriously. Then, I would suggest at least a BA in the Humanities. Whether the child does auditor training or not prior and during college is secondary. Taking the long term view, anyone is better off approaching the core of Scientology with a humanities education. I would avoid a deep science education, unless the child really took to it, and unless it was balanced with the Humanities. Despite Richard Dawkins’s incredible erudition in the subject of evolutionary biology, he is absolutely clueless on the subject of religion and the humanities, for example.

    Mr. David Miscavige and I are very similar in age and background. He is a 2nd gener, and so am I. He is uneducated, and so was I. He decided to trade high school and college for Scientology, and I took a very similar route. A contributing factor (but not the only factor, by any means) to DM’s current foolishness is that he is absolutely clueless and has no educational context in which to understand Scientology. So, he applies the bad stuff, and ignores the good.

  359. Theo Sismanides

    Now what’s this Marty? What’s this? I am all eyes and ears for this. This can’t pass just like that. If he is funded by big pharma, then who are behind big pharma. So, please let us know on this, whatever you have there on that.

  360. Acknowledgements are very important.

  361. Samuel,

    That is one of the finest bitch-slappings I’ve seen in a long time.

    I could mention appropriate use of the tone scale, half a point above, but let’s leave it at that 🙂


  362. Yes many still sweep everything into one pile. This will not stand.

  363. You miss my point. My point is participation instead of standing on the sidelines.

  364. hahahha, i see now, it’s a childish message of “if you don’t approve of the video i posted on my blog then I won’t allow the one you posted on my blog comments”. kinda like vengeance. oh dear…

  365. “Only a degraded being will work for an SP.”

    So why the hell are you working for David Miscavige ?

  366. Yes, they truly are.

    I’m an IT guy, open source through and through. Linux/BSD is all I do and attribution is the only thing we get back from our efforts. So acknowledgments are very important to me to.

    This is why the new idea of open-source Scientology has so much appeal for me. Maybe not fully open-source, maybe CC-BY-NC. But that’s a discussion for another time and place 🙂

  367. All day while posts on this thread were coming through, a thought was forming in my mind – a nasty horrible thought that I didn’t want to look at. Eventually I had to look though. And what I found is:

    As an example of what a Scientologist should be, I suck. My comm-cycle sucks. My ability to grant beingness sucks.

    I reckon the mestology attitude went much deeper than I thought in my universe. I thought I’d handled it; but I hadn’t even begun to scratch the surface. So now I have a whole lotta work to do. Best get started then 🙂

    This is one of Marty’s better posts. Lots of TA action and a good ethics cycle.

    Thanks Marty,


  368. Jeff, thanks for responding. I did notice that you were part of the editing staff of Advance! during the 70s and then took over as the main Editor in the late 70s. (Those were the days when the name of the Editor and the staff were actually included — nowadays, there is no editor or staff names even mentioned — just the copyright owner “CSWUS”) .

    My overall impression with Advance! was that there was a declining level of community, information sharing and free 2-way communication between the Scientology public and Scientology management as the years rolled on.

    In 1978, when the “Letters to the Editors” stopped being published, it seemed like a very sudden shift — like there was a cut comm-line. And then it started feeling more commercial through the 80s, and though there were attemps to keep it “spiritual” with the articles and stories, the lack of real community and 2-way communication, and general emphasis on “sales” and “advertisements”, just overshadowed any remaining semblance of real spiritual community. By the 90s, the stories and articles felt more like a kind of “spiritual lip service”, and the magazine had lost its heart and soul.

    Today, it is simply a multi-page brochure and advertisement — like every other CoM magazine. Scientology has become fully McDonaldized (which I think Miscavige was even touting as his goal for the CoS back in the mid-80s, at the time I was on staff).

  369. I was thinking too that legal threats may have been the reason for using peoples’ initials instead of full names … and also for removing the “abilities gained” from the OT levels, as they had been published in earlier Advance! issues (as well as on the Grade Chart).

  370. As I am sure you’d know i would–I love this vid!
    Right up my alley.
    Thanks, Marty.

  371. Wonderful synopsis Maria.

    And I would also add the work of Dr. Ian Stevenson (from the 60s and 70s) who demonstrated scientifically and fairly convincingly that children, 2-5 years old, were sometimes capable of spontaneously remembering details of their former lives.

    And also Wilhelm Reich, whose experiments of a “particular and peculiar” energy of life in the 40s – 50s, were later replicated by Dr. Robert Dew in the 1980s.

    The 1980s also saw the publishing of Rupert Sheldrake’s “A New Science of Life” which rejected the idea that the brain is a warehouse for memories and suggested it is more like a radio receiver for tuning into the past.

    All of these luminaries, and many others working more specifically in parapsychology research, ultimately provided enough experimental support for even the hardcore skeptic Carl Sagan to conclude, just before he passed away in 1996, that:

    “At the time of writing, there are three claims in the ESP field which, in my opinion, deserve serious study –
    (1) that by thought alone humans can (barely) affect random number generators in computers;
    (2) that people under mild sensory deprivation can receive thoughts or images ‘projected’ at them; and
    (3) that young children sometimes report the details of a previous life, which upon checking turn out to be accurate and which they could not have known about in any other way than reincarnation.

    — “Demon Haunted World”, Carl Sagan, 1996.

  372. Dr. As-is, it was actually that there was no explanation for the video – and I could discern none from wasting a minuted on it.

  373. I love that Empathy Video, it so rings true and matches another scientific experiement they are doing with random numbers all over the world.
    They are totally random, and then the Twin Towers fall, and all of a sudden they are not random, Same for Haiti, Same for the death of Diana.

    There is an over all connectedness.

    Armies are trained to dehumanize the other, the enemy, otherwise they could never shoot any one….

    All the military forces know that.

    thanks, nancy

  374. ΘTater/GaryLerner

    Thought Provoking,

    I’m not laughing, either. I am smiling though because you’ve LOOKED and saw life that you were affecting. Now that’s cause! Theta… Youz haz it! 🙂
    I love that!


  375. Wayne Froemke (AKA "Safe")

    Cat Daddy wrote “You want the Truth ? The world thinks that Scientologists are icky.”

    Thank you Cat Daddy. You’re so kindly understated it. That has been a tough general truth for me to confront. I’m ashamed, embarassed, and so sorry about this perception and actuality of what has been done.

    The name “Scientology” and “Scientologists” have been utterly disgraced in most public’s mind by the behavior of many in the Church of Scientology.

    Instead of the perception that Scientologists and Scientology are people and a subject of grace and real caring, it’s turned out to become just another religion which promotes redemptive violence in the Church of Scientology. Fear, shame, guilt, and blame are used in the CofS, and redemptive violence, such as the RPF and the threat of SP Declares, are used to “save” somebody.

    Instead of many church Scientologists promoting open, high ARC, non-violent communication, they promote abusive communication, thought stopping, and NO communication (disconnection) … all of which are a form of violence.

    Violence begets violence. The CofM has not learned this. Neither have many religions for that matter. The trap (implant?) of redemptive violence is not the way towards peace and goodwill on Earth. This perverted mindset didn’t start with CofM. There’s a long, long church history of it before the Church of Scientology.

    For a mind-opening read, I recommend Scientologists and non-Scientologists alike to read …

    “The Powers That Be: Theology for a New Millennium” by Walter Wink

  376. Wayne Froemke (AKA "Safe")

    Awesome (though tough) realization, I know. I had it too for myself! VWD, Alan.

  377. Well, rather than leave you in a mystery I’ll make it clearer…

    My post was in reply to dave adams above, and was essentially that the body is like a jacket (or set of clothes), should be kept usable and clean, but other than that not to worry about it as there are plenty more being made (bodies) everyday…

    I then queried dave’s comment that seemed to mean that he thought his body was him (as a person).

    Then I embedded this video:

    Although IMO this was hardly cryptic, so as to not leave you in a mystery, the video is a talk by Sai baba (an indian guru) to his devotees, in which it he talks about you not being a body, amongst other vedic material. LRH also relayed much of the same material in scio.

    Discernible now? 🙂

  378. ΘTater/GaryLerner

    Just Me, You’re not kiddin! Mr. OTVIII has absolutly NOOOOOO concept of empathy and pan-determinism. He sounds JUST LIKE someone who IS on staff at the present Cof$.

    OT VIII, do you spit on someone when they don’t shine your shoes correctly? If 40 years of being in Scientology has gotten you to the point of “communicating” the way you do now, then FLUNK! Go to qual and get a heart and some cramming. Being vitriol should not be a form of beingness for an OTVIII (or for anyone). Yet, your disdain appears repeatedly.

    I do get what you said.


  379. Cat Daddy, 🙂 btw the brain is not necessarily the mind. They are separate though interactive. The future is going to see extended definitions of mind, beyond energy and pictures, collective mind, and especially the advent of the internet, where all the info is an extension of minds. Fun to use, both minds and brains, especially with any confusions remedied about who we, the users, are.

  380. Thanks. yes all good points! And no communication done in the spirit of understanding and observing is to be condemned. You don’t fear free people. YOU ARE MY BROTHER!! Arrrrggghhhh!! No eons (nor peons) will affect my gratitude and recognition.

  381. Marty, you make an excellent point: “integrate or disintegrate”.

    Comparing humanity’s world awareness and progress to the third and fourth dynamic of c of m and its members, it is clear how it represents the Dark Ages! flying in the face of the spirit of thinking and discovery, a spirit and protocol Hubbard himself highly respected and acknowledge. Coo coo puffs.

  382. Thought Provoking

    Yes I am pretty sure that would get my attention too. Unfortunately I have not had such an experience… yet. I do however tend to not ruthlessly harm any living thing because they are, well, living after all. It would be a whole new dimension of my Dynamics if I could communicate to all living things and I like to think I am wide open to the experience but so far, either I don’t know how to “listen” or plants simply have had nothing to say to me yet.
    Thanks for the personal observation.


  383. I just googled the word “scientology”.

    Under the “Blog posts about ‘scientology'” (towards bottom of page), Marty’s blog is number one.

  384. Great article and video, Heather.

    There’s also the research of John Lorber of Cambridge University and his fascinating discovery of individuals who have “virtually no brain” — some of whom have gone on to become college students (in one case, graduating with honors in mathematics). You can read more about it here:

  385. Hi Wayne,
    I am curious and I would like you to answer a question, if thats okay with you.
    You said something in your comment that, well being a “WOG” I guess, that kinda piqued my interest.
    You said ;
    “I was never taught the subject of NONviolent communication (also known as compassionate communication). Most people are not. Not even Scientologists in Scientology”
    Could you please explain this violent communication that was taught to you and me for that matter seeing how “most people” are. I have been going over everything I have learned about communicating and I can not seem to come up with any thing “violent”. Maybe I am just “looking” at my up-bringing and education incorrectly .
    Also I am wondering why must you denigrate us “wogs” with a silly little rolling eyes frowning face? By the way I am not at all insulted by your attempt at humor.
    Perhaps that is an example of your “violent communication” ?
    Oh and the website you have linked
    is a real doozy. Good luck to you Wayne, you really need it.

  386. Yes, it is true. I also “talk” to my plants to give them the “R” of what I am going to do and for what reason – like cutting back their roots etc. – and I give assists if necessary.

    I had one plant that I bought in 1977 and it went through a lot of things with me and when it wasn’t doing well I pampered it. I was just a green plant. Then in 2003 I was going to move and I would not be able to take it with me and I let it know before hand. The next thing I know it developed a huge bloom which could be smelled lovely throughout my home for several weeks – for me it was the fare well present – and I was very grateful about it.

    Wanted to share a picture of it but I don’t know how to get it in here. There is one in my profile at FB.

  387. Theta Networker

    “There’s stuff happening in the theta universe methinks” … Yes sir!!

    It is so great to have you out there Marty … I withdrew from the church on instinct nto knowing there was any alternative … before I learned from your blog … freezone [some, I’m very selective] … friendsof lrh…etc. In the process, I have found new theta friends (who I introduce myself to saying that Scientology is my spititual foundation this LT) …

    Got an email a few days ago from one who practices BodyTalk, which I experienced with her, in which she said:
    “Thanks Al for sharing,

    I am familiar with Huna healing and have studied it a bit. It is in line with BodyTalk, Matrix Energetics, Dianetics, A Course in Miracles, ho’oponopono. In my mind, they are all the same Consciousness, simply different approaches and options. I appreciate the info and the sharing.”

    See … We/Scientologists are NOT in competition with the folks … As the Old Man said: “Competition is the trick of the weak.”

  388. Arrrrrggghhhhh!!!

  389. Re: OT VIII and John Boice, they give my viewpoint on things most of the time, or at least a refreshing viewpoint that I like to see. But I try to be more indirect in criticism or just try to not control at all because I know someone with bad intent wouldn’t have released all this data over the past year, all the while encouraging auditors and training groups to form outside the church. It definitely wouldn’t have been the gameplan.
    I don’t believe their comments are an attempt to say to public “see how it is?” but it’s an attempt to clarify or steer so as to ease public in on a gradient, which is sometimes lacking. Also understood is that gradients don’t have to matter because a kind of David Bowie/Prince/above the game approach might work better where you don’t have to worry about out of context soundbites. This is refreshing too when it’s not annoying.

  390. Grasshopper, once again I find your post to be one of the most articulate and insightful. I think your idea about how Generation 2 should best approach education is spot-on.

    Your bringing up the generational issue has clarified something that has bothered me for months now, as I’ve followed this blog, which I will attempt to explain here.

    Participants on this blog could be roughly separated into 2 different groups. At times, people from the respective groups seem to be talking past each other, sometimes with antagonism that often seems unwarranted.

    One group would be those people who came into Scientology AFTER getting their “education”: Generation 1 (G1).

    I’m from G1. I discovered Scientology in 1969, as a grad student. I already had degrees in political science and philosophy from a major university. I had already held many different jobs out in the world.

    During that time, I would say the majority of the newcomers to Scientology, at least where I came in (SF – Bay Area), were already highly educated and literate, VERY in tune with (I could make a joke there, but won’t), and part of, the culture of the time.

    The next group might be those who, over the succeeding years, entered Scientology pre-education: Generation 2 (G2). Many were children of those from G1. How many from G2 went straight onto staff or into SO, with little or no education, I don’t know – but it was a lot of people.

    G2’s lack of education and real-world experience could, at times, be a real hassle for us G1 guys. I can’t count the number of times while at Flag during the 80s & 90s, I would find myself in front of an SO staff member – Ethics Officer, anyone? – maybe 18 years old, completely uneducated in anything but Scientology – lecturing me about how my handling of something on the 2d, or my job, etc. I would sit there rolling my eyes (metaphorically speaking) at the absurdity of being lectured or “handled” by someone with so little real-world experience.

    One reason G1 appreciated Scientology so much is that we were able to compare it to the ideas, philosophies, religions, and practices to which we had already been exposed. We could immediately appreciate what a great treasure Scientology actually was, how it stood head & shoulders above these other fields as a body of knowledge and an applied philosophy with a uniquely workable technology.

    This did not give us carte blanche to become arrogant, dismissive, unfeeling, insular, or anything else. For the most part, we retained our understanding and empathy for the realities of others who had not discovered Scientology. The great majority of us wanted to become auditors so we could help people. Hence, the oft-mentioned packed courserooms of that era.

    The point is not to pat us geezers on the head & prattle on about how great G1 was. Just making the point that it was anything but “close-minded” – we couldn’t be – we already had years of exposure to ideas, philosophies, etc. Of course, some who separated to some degree from the wider world after getting into Scn, but most did not.

    G2, on the other hand, had little or none of this upbringing, simply because of age, having been children when they got in. All G2 knew was – Scientology.

    What I sense in many comments on this blog is that some from G2 have quite a lot of BPC about having been kept apart from the wider culture most if not all of their lives. This is completely understandable.

    Now free from the clutches of a “cult” that kept them isolated from the wider world, past and present, they are all of a sudden discovering that, OMG, other people out there (besides LRH) had cool ideas too! So someone will post a paragraph from some scientist or philosopher or religious leader, and there are a lot of ooos and ahhhs agreeing with how cool the quote is.

    All well and good. I am not putting this down!! But I think the reaction of some G1 folks is, at times, a yawn and a tendency to perhaps fire back with “yeah, cool idea, but to us, that’s old news – doesn’t compare to LRH” and maybe (wrongly) see G2 as a little “open-minded” in the bad sense – perhaps fearing the possibility of squirreldom rearing its ugly head.

    Point being, reading what Grasshopper has to say has made me appreciate and empathize with G2 more than I did before. Mainly I think it would be helpful to keep these generational differences in mind as we peruse this blog and not react negatively in either direction. I believe that some of the strong “defenders” are misduplicating the “open minders”, and vice versa. Unless OSA bots or genuine SPs, I would say that most “defenders” are not really close-minded at all. And that most “open minders” are really defenders too. G1 and G2 are mostly on the same page in this current struggle & it would be helpful to keep that in mind.


  391. Veritas, just an ack to this powerful post of yours. It’s the best I’ve read since arriving on Marty’s blog several months ago. One to truly savor.


  392. As far as I know it was never in an official policy or volume. In the 80’s the IAS reges would whip it out like some coveted hidden data line and show it to you in order to get you to pay money. It was just photocopied from regular paper. It was insinuated that one could rise above being simply minion-like grass by rising up and paying.

  393. Publius~I agree. I know GHopper is right. Even just getting involved shortly after high school with a “good” Catholic upbringing (in which I was loaded with misunderstoods and disagreements 😉 I would fall into G2. But having lived before this life, G1.
    So the tech in the church, M-1 wordclearing, KTL/LOC, some other processes done correctly were/are the way to take G2 and make them better align with G1 but with the tech now obliterated inside CofM, this just won’t happen!
    It’s up to us to make it happen out here in the real world.
    You’re gonna be that G1’er next time around. What will a good parent do with you? Hopefully as suggested, get you a well-rounded education, firmed up by some LRH basics.
    That is impossible to do in CofM.
    A couple of years ago, I bought my kids’ the Success Through Communications Course but then decided against them doing it in a mission because I don’t want them poisoned. My super-bright theta potatoes would be fresh meat for the wolves! A’int gonna happen!

  394. Publius~I meant next time around you’ll be that G2’er.

  395. Another good video along this line is THE FUTURE OF FOOD, directed by Deborah Koons. It covers Monsantos’s success at patenting genetically-altered seeds, infiltrating government and putting small family farms out of business through chicanery.

  396. Your words wash gently ashore, bringing peace after the storm.

  397. I agree with you, The Catster takes it pretty damn well. He actually has a decent TR 4. And his 2 ain’t bad either.

  398. With the mysterious ‘Theologians’ and the BBB and I think the Masons were in that building, too.

  399. I likes to drink my hillbilly music with a chaser of Bob Dylan, Johnny Cash, Pink Floyd and the Beatles. On occasion an aperitif of Tupac or Snoop Dog. Then desert of Leonard Cohen.

  400. Whoops! Sorry…slip of me tongue.

  401. I found my heart in the lost and found. (Hillbilly music influence)

  402. “I never said most of the things I said.”
    Yogi Berra

  403. We always say I have a Brain don’t we 😉

  404. Anonymous calls itsel: “The Hive mind” 😉 (Think Borg)

  405. Holy Axioms, Batman! These people are actually advocating the observation, contemplation and conclusion of what they see to be true for themselves and are allowed to make their own decisions??!!?


  406. Cat’s don’t like TR 7 much 😉

  407. PlainOldThetan

    Marty: While I don’t buy all the stuff in this video, what I do see is this: Man and Mankind is still seeking answers and explanations.

    In some ways, I see this video as a 2010 version of someone’s Excalibur.

    Now, they’ve got to use it to develop a working technology.

    I’m remembering platitude-ridden dorm room posters containing phrases like “Today is the first day of the rest of your life” and “Nuclear bombs are not good for children and other living things”.

    They express a good and desirable sentiment. But there was no accompanying techology to effect the change in mankind necessary to achieve the platitude’s objective.

    I can’t invalidate a guy for seeing a goal and formulating an hypothesis to explain it.

    What I want to see it a workable technology to accompany it.

    I can just imagine what someone said to themselves if they’d read Excalibur in the ’30’s. They’d poo-poo it and degrade it (as I’ve read in many expositions on the Internet by people claiming to have read the original).

    Just because someone has a dream is no reason to denigrate it. That’s denial of beingness, in my book.

    — Plain Old Thetan

  408. I could go total Zen on you guys but that would mean boring myself to death 😉

  409. Different viewpoints massage the mind.

  410. martyrathbun09

    It’s deja vu all over again.

  411. “Nobody goes there anymore. It’s too crowded.”
    Yogi Berra

  412. Thank you, Publius.

    I agree that there is a definite “generation gap” here. Part of it is the older and wiser looking at the young and chuckling at their antics. However, when their antics are playing dress-up as MAAs and CMO Nazis, the game becomes no fun at all.

    There are three types of G2 Scientologist. The first is those that are lucky enough to have parents that take them along on the journey. I was
    lucky enough to have parents who saw value in my getting trained and audited. I did ARC SW at 13 (in an HGC), and all the rest up to my OT IV was student auditing, either by co-audit, or just because I was a PC who was not stuck on their DRD.

    The second type is the neglected child. If you were around CC in the ’80s, you saw a lot of these. They were Scn only because they were hanging around the org, waiting for their parents to get off course. It was a social thing. The insane pricing structure (which I am surprised does not get a lot of airplay in the field) encouraged selfishness on the part of the parents – they did their courses and auditing, the kids did not. These kids were running around with virtually zero parental supervision, and some of them did drugs and got into serious trouble. I had almost zero parental supervision (I love my parents, but there were some blind spots there), but I had the tech to protect me. These other kids had only the names of books and a grade chart to stare at from the bottom.

    The third type – you might say Type III – were those that saw the calling, and joined up. The CMO, “Cadet Org,” various posts. It is really like the child soldiers in Rwanda, only thankfully, without guns. But, these guys not only had a spotty non-Scientology education, they had a spotty Scientology education. If you joined the SO in the mid ’70s, you were put on the EPF, and you got a lot of MEST work, your Staff Statuses, perhaps your 3rd Class Missionaire course, and perhaps (but probably not) some sort of staff hatting. And then… You were posted, with, if you were lucky, one day off per fortnight, and some time for “CSP” to do laundry. You were supposed to have study time, and if you did, it was post-related. No courses, no auditing. If you got into the RPF, you could go the RIDIDI (Read It, Drill It, Do It) route.

    I was on staff at Flag in the mid seventies. There were a lot of kids who were the Type 3 type of G2. I worked with Marc Yeager on a project. Very earnest, nice guy, but I mean, he was a kid and clueless about some of the things we were trying to do. I was too. I made some rookie mistakes that in a normal world would have been used as fodder for training and education, but in the SO environment were proof that I was sabotaging the works. I felt like absolute crap, and I felt especially bad that I let Ron down.

    For the record, I was NSO, but I was working as if I was SO. I will tell you, every single day I was on staff in that mode, I thanked my lucky stars I was not SO, and that when the job was done, I could move on. Kids like Marc Yeager, Bitty Blythe (and there is a name from the past. What a … well never mind), Tanya Burden. I remember looking at them and thinking “I’m trained. I know why I am putting up with this shit. How can you possibly do this without having a clue about what it is you are fighting for?” And for Tanya, she finally cracked up and left.

    By the way, Mark Hamilton is in this mix. He is and was a genuinely good guy, and I am glad to have known him as a friend. He is such a super nice guy that it amazes me how he stayed in the SO so long.

    The Type 3 G3s are incomplete, and they never had a chance to fill themselves out. If they don’t know they need to be filled out, you get the crap we see today.

    But, to the point here, the G2s have lived through a lot, and I know our experiences will help to form Scientology 2.0.

  413. Do you clean up after yourself ?

  414. Theta Networker

    EXACTLY Joe!! Bruce Lipton is indeed a primary researcher in the field of epigenetics … And good on you for that parenthetic definition.

    I started his book, “THE BIOLOGY OF BELIEF — Unleashing the Power of Consciousness, Matter and Miracles,” a few months ago. The first chapter of that book is “Lessons From the Petri Dish: In Praise of Smart Cells and Smart Students.” He is indeed in the realm of theta energy…

    I didn’t know of the Wisdom of Your Cells lecture series, but I’ll look around for it … Cells in the colony … cells into thought … sounds like LRH/Dianetics …

    Btw, Candace Pert, whose related work is also considered ground-breaking in the non-Dianetics world-at-large, is cited by Bruce Lipton for her work which she reported on in “Molecules of Emotion.”

  415. I am an Ex who has been lurking on and off here from the beginning. This post has elicited my first response. It addresses the primary reason I left Scientology, to escape the concentration camp-like environment of no past, no present and no future that I experienced over the many years while in. My beef with Scientologists is that they are stuck in an era of the past, apparently incapable of true growth or evolution. And yes, because of that the world left them behind a long time ago. This message (along with Glenn Samuels’ recent post) tells me that there may be hope for the future of Scientology as a subject after all. I can see that you are desperately trying to resurrect the it from the ashes and ruins it has become. Up until now, I have been skeptical and have kept my distance, unsure of whether or not I wanted to show support. All I can say right now is that you, Marty, and a few others around here are growing on me and I am now comfortable in wishing you success in your endeavor to redeem Scientology as a subject. You have taken on a very difficult and daunting task and deserve recognition for that at the very least. I don’t always agree with (or understand) you or your supporters. I’m not the same species of “believer” that you all are. What is important is that it (might be) becoming safer to say so on your blog. What is also important to me is seeing the subject being directed back towards its roots (or shall I say what made it interesting for me in the first place) and appealing more to intellect and true spirituality rather, than zealotry. If you can accomplish that, you might have a chance of becoming a PART of a global movement, as opposed to remaining a fringe group of extremists. Your greatest endeavor imo is the way you are educating yourself outside the parameters of Scientology, in the wider sphere of the world that is not stuck in the 50’s and 60’s. It is only in doing so that you have a chance of bringing Scientology along with you into the 21st century. And with that, I wish you luck. The 21st century needs all the help it can get, in the form of the true spirituality. You are going against the grain of the robotic, opportunistic, money grubbing, self-aggrandizing, pseudo-spirituality of the Scientology has-beens, and I respect you for that.

  416. Imense amount of video material. Thanks

  417. SuperUltraMegaSecret...ness


    Excellent video! I saved it to my favorites. Here’s one you’ve probably seen but just in case you haven’t:

  418. FYI, the “Cellular Memory” hypothesis is not accepted by mainstream science. The page you link to is primarily anecdotal information from non-research sources.

  419. HEY JOE….where u goin’ with that baseball hat in your hand?
    So jumping jiminie…its been awhile
    The Native Sons building was a grand ol’ building (from the outside!)
    So you are reading and a Church mag gets handed to you, wow never had that happen…should have slapped the bitch (joking)
    I would like to run a mental ward so as to “do no harm”. However, I am not 100% anti drug because when someone is really fuckin nuts, I mean really out there, then I want them inside a mental hospitial,and on sedatives if necessary. I want to keep mental hospitals open…just not abusive. If we close them all and squish all of a persons mental health options then where will they go? The Church has policy and most of us really couldn’t handle a psycho with expertise anyway…Ron had difficulties. I would like a crack at it though ( ha ha , I guess the average person is nutty enough that I shouldn’t want the challenge.

  420. My guess: “How you got me on this one is totally lost on me.”

  421. MrsVonTrapp,
    You were a bit late in coming to this thread, so not sure how many people saw your message. But I just did, and wanted to give you a big Welcome! I hope you continue to post here and share your thoughts and observations. The hills are (still) alive … 🙂

  422. I loved the video! this guy was really explaining the Laws of ARC in his own way. I agree that most members of the Church of Scientology — today — might sneer at how he portrayed his data. Apparently, if a certain Leader doesn’t give his consent on certain material, it cannot be believed as factual and considered only as “psychobabble”. It is unfortunate but it is that way. Fortunately for me, I am not that way — another reason why I am not a member of that particular group anymore.
    Thank you for sharing this.

  423. I think it is unfortunate that many Scientologists believe that LRH is the one and only source for metaphysical and personal development. I myself have been interested in many approaches which I believe can be integrated well; Objectivism and Neo-Tech specifically.

    The Holographic Model and Quantum Consciousness generally have a very high resonance with LRH’s theories (Thetans, engrams, clearing).

  424. Chu-hua Zhu,

    I agree … The realms of vibrations of your Higher Self and mindbody reconnection and healing have been looked at … mapped by others in addition to Ron. I am not familiar with Objectivism and Neo-Tech [will check, now that you mention — although for some reason I have the idea they may be spin-offs of Dianetics or Scientology] but:

    Yes, the Holographic Model and Quantum Consciousness generally have a very high resonance with LRH’s theories. I’m in the midst of a book by Penney Peirce, entitled FREQUENCY – The Power of Personal Vibration, which draws upon the Holographic Model and Quantum Consciousness throughout. I wrote a post on this on my blog, at, which you may appreciate …

    Here’s this, from Bruce Lipton’s Epilogue to The Biology Of Belief

    “Many spiritual people anticipate the return of White Light to the planet. They imagine it will come in the form of a unique individual like Buddha, Jesus, or Muhammad. However, from my newly acquired spirituality, I see that White Light will only return to the planet when every human being recognizes every other human being as an individual frequency of the White Light. As long as we keep eliminating or devaluing other human beings we have decided we don’t like, i.e., destroying frequencies of the spectrum, we will not be able to experience the White Light. Our job is to protect and nurture each human frequency so that the White Light can return.”

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