BBC Panorama – The Secrets of Scientology

Well, that is the title in any event.  In fact,  the secrets they promised to tell never made it into the final edit. You can thank David Miscavige if you got the overall impression Scientology itself is weird.  The fifty letters from the Church and its lawyers to the BBC  that the church brags about in its counter video promised litigation should those secrets be told .  In other words, spend parishioner donations to cover Dave’s ass exclusively, forcing the media to fill in with old hat, more generalized attack material.  Protect Miscavige at the expense of Scientology.   

The show does give credible accounts from Mike, Amy, Marc, Claire, Jason, Mareka, et al on matters the world ought to know.  But, the secrets that were touted and would have had the most salutory effects were left on the editing room floor.

In that respect, I admit I was wrong. I earlier suggested the BBC would be less inclined to back off as I had accused U.S. media of doing (since the BBC is publicly funded).   At the end of the day, I remain confident that the ‘save Dave at any expense’ strategy will be his own undoing.

522 responses to “BBC Panorama – The Secrets of Scientology

  1. It was still a good watch – perhaps old news to anyone who keeps their eye on CoS, but laid out in a non-over-the-top manner to those new to the subject.

    Now that the “exclusive” period has lapsed, I’m interested in seeing what information that the BBC left out could now be brought to light to end the abusive regime.

  2. What was most striking to me was the before and after version of Mike Rinder. Here he is 3 years older and he looks SOOOO much better! I couldn’t get over how unhealthy and nervous he looked when he was working for the Corn Cob. I’m sure most viewers noticed.

  3. I would like to thank all of those who participated in this Panorama show. Alas, the violence of Miscavige did not make it into the show. Still, it is among the most damning shows made on the “Church of Scientology” to date.
    For me, one of the most powerful moments was when John Sweeney stepped at the window of the car and asked the camera man whether a respectable religion would behave like that, after enumerating documented incidents of immoral behaviour.

  4. I’m confused. none of the secrets that you and Mike R told them made it to the brodcast? is it information that should be known? is it something that you feel needs to be told to help people open their eyes to the Cult of miscavige?

    It seems to me that this blog is followed by quite a few people and would make a good form to get this information out. Even if it only got one person to open their eyes that would be worth it right?

    Let me know if there is anything that I can do to help get everthing on the right track.

  5. Well at least you and Mike got the bit on the show as to what the secret OT 3 level is about. I am sure that Sweeney must have thought that was completely nuts.

    That probably hurts them as much as anything else that Sweeney could say. It will probably keep most people from going anywhere near Scientology.

  6. Martin Padfield

    Marty, I wouldn’t be downbeat about this at all. Fact is, the Church IS culty and creepy now, and Sweeney was just doing his job showing it so. The extent of the disconnection mis-use, forced abortions, coercian and intimidation were all graphically illustrated, and the screaming gang attacking Mike captured on tape via Mike’s mobile…. well that was TV gold. As was the Headley’s contribution, Mareka (superb), and the wonderful Amy. Mike Rinder cemented his place as 1st grade hero.

    So OSA lawyers told the BBC “dox or GTFO” on the abuses. They couldn’t have a “he said she said” on this else it would have been an AC360 re-run.

    The pathetic Freedumb response and lack of OSA on the radio shows, twitter feeds etc says it all. They’ve all but conceded. Great product Marty, you should be proud. (And didn’t the meter demo go great!)

  7. Sweeney blew it by his violations of the precepts of the journalistic code that BBC and it’s governing bodies and culture hold in high esteem. It gave the church the fodder and fuel it needed to accomplish their objective of censorship. If his producer had been brilliant and they named their product better, they could have predicted this and pre-empted it by making sure they stuck to the spirit of that code.

    Therefore, same old.

  8. Aaron, In fact I was filmed for 15 minutes discussing the subject and of course every second hit the editing room floor. The same old on that is purely BBC incompetence, or bias.

  9. But I like it a lot anyway.

  10. Agreed.

  11. Its perhaps worth noting that the libel laws in the UK are weighted in favour of those who are libelled. Their is in fact legal ” tourism”
    with regard to this.

    Anything left out could be posted here perhaps?

    The recording by John Sweeney of an “inch square wife” and coherts
    is a classic example of serendipity. 🙂 Revealing COS trusted members
    as similar to the inmates of Bedlam.

  12. Great job – Mike, Marty, Amy, Marc, Claire, Jason, Larry, Mareka & Christie!
    I’m sure it blows charge for a lot of people as truth and sunshine disinfects!

  13. See channel fours beginners guide for a doc actually looking at the subject. Viewable on youtube.

  14. Even without those secrets it was quite awesome, congrats! Fantastic work you, Mike, John Sweeney and all the others have done!

    And what about all these secrets, will you post them on the blog in time or are they already here?

    Yep, the end of the Diabolical Maniac’s reign is near, he will not last another year, lets make a nice tone 40 postulate to that effect!

  15. New stable datum established from the doc…

    “independent scientology movement”

  16. “Anything left out could be posted here perhaps?”

    An excellent question Mr Park.

  17. I think John Sweeny and the BBC did an incredibly artistic job of framing the controversies, and appreciate the contributions of all that participated. Marty, Mike, Amy, Mark and Claire, Jason, Mareka….you all came over as credible and sensitive human beings.

    Now that the Beeb has had its exclusive, I think the time is right for more depth and detail. How this unfolds is up to the tellers. From the front page of the SP Times to a full hour on the BBC, the world IS watching.
    And the fact that there were NO representatives of the Church of Miscavology is huge….where is Tommy Davis? Where is Heber?

    (Secret coded message to DM: YSCITCH)
    Did you figure it out yet?

  18. within 6minutes of tonights show ending- the church of scientology had posted their response. note the background on this page! the geeks. This leads me to say Scientology must be the first religion in history to produce critical documentuaries into the beliefs or factual finding of others, most notably those of the “now infamous” John Sweeney !!!!! Religions are usually tolerent towards and accept the beliefs of others, something that is clearly unheard of when it comes to scientology. Rather than just ignoring critiscim, they rise to it, clearly demonstrating guilt and the intolerance of any kind of criticism……


  19. The Xenu story is the 800 pound gorilla in the room, which everybody knows about but nobody talks about. Didn’t LRH’s screenplay, “Revolt in the Stars” cover the OTIII introductory material? How secret can it be? It certainly is not more far fetched than the Son of God coming to Earth to die for the sins of mankind.
    I discussed the idea of BTs and clusters with my non-scientologist sister-in-law, and she was really intrigued. What if these entities could be objectively proven to exist? Should people really be kept in the dark? Here is an area of knowledge that begs further study, and could easily evolve beyond what LRH developed.

  20. Great job to all concerned, and well-produced by the BBC. It certainly got across the creepiness factor of the Church and will therefore discourage people from going anywhere near it. The before-and-after comparison of Mike’s face speaks volumes. I am sure there was a lot of material that was left on the cutting-room floor, either due to the BBC’s legal squeamishness or time constraints. But looking at it in a glass-half-full mode, the information that made it through is damaging enough. With the BBC commitment handled, I hope that you and Mike find outlets for the damaging facts that did not get included.

  21. Congratulation Marty, Mike, Amy, Claire and Mark Headley !
    And Jason B and Larry Anderson.

    This the kind of show that innoculates new generations against buying into DM’s Cult. The “Church’s” immunization system is down, every minute of every show like this permeates into their “defenses” which are becoming weaker by the day.

    Congratulations John Sweeney and the BBC. Thanks for returning back into it and standing against the pressure not to air it.

  22. I’m at 5:58 Part One and I can tell it’s going off the rails

  23. Marty, thank you very much for posting the whole show.
    Much appreciated!

    You are nevertheless making great headway and can take that as a win.
    If the objective is FULL exposure, perhaps the pan-determinism needs to be extended. Your and Mike’s Pan-determinism might have omitted the editing aspects. Perhaps for the next TV report you guys could hang out IN the editing room as well. ΘΘ

  24. Okay, so the promised secrets weren’t told. Maybe the secrets had to do with slave labor, beatings and the perks to Cruise; I don’t know. Regardless, what was told WILL be very real to anyone who watched the program.
    To wit:
    1. Being followed by PI’s. It makes them look para-military. That is so, so creepy it’ll turn off most anyone who watches the show.
    2. Disconnection from family. Not being able to talk to one’s sister in nearly 6 years!! That will horrify people, big time. Scratch off more people who WON’T be going in.
    3. Coerced abortions. What woman watching the show is going to go for that one? None! Scratch off more people who won’t be going in.
    4. Tommy Davis. He comes off as so arrogant, nasty and mean-spirited. That in itself will turn people away. Oh and his mother, yuk! She came off as haggard and very hostile.
    5. Last but not least, the positive change in Mike’s appearance since he left the CofM. A blind man could see it with his cane! You think people are going to say, gee I want to be like him before he left. Not.

    To all involved in the making of this show, take a win. You did a great job. It absolutely communicates some very important REAL points to people. The dwarf’s numbers ( slaves and $$) will continue to decline.

  25. If there were ever an advertisement for what leaving Miscavage’s organizaton can do for you, it’s the first five minutes of this show. Mike Rinder looks grim in the 2007 footage, but positively healthy and glowing in the recent footage.

  26. John Sweeney’s Finest Moment:

    This is my new signature line on ESMB:

    “If this isn’t harassment, what is it?
    Is this how this Church goes about its business?
    A religious organization? An organization that says its entitled to be treated as a religion?”

    John Mother-Fucking Sweeney, of the BBC

  27. This is correct.

    Scientology’s UK lawyers, Carter-Ruck (also known as Carter-Fuck) are notorious and colossal shysters, who’ll use any and all tactics, ethical or otherwise, to get what their clients want (imagine an entire firm full of Ken Moxons…*shudder*)

    See also Terril’s comments downblog about Libel Tourism.

    You, me, and everyone else here would have *loved* to hear all the stories about DM’s psychotic behaviour broadcast on the national stage, but surely nobody wants to give MESTology grounds for an *actual* complaint (as opposed to the spurious ones that have been made, and will no doubt continue to make.

  28. Wayne Froemke (AKA "Safe")

    At the end, Jim Sweeny says, “The Church of Scientology craves respectability”.

    That string could have and should have been pulled much harder, as this (IMO) is a huge part of what is wrong.

    More accurately, the Church of Scientology management is psychotically obsessed about, and DEMANDS attention and admiration, and they know virtually no bounds to get it, even use of suppressive low-tone methods.

    Earlier, I posted a clip of some quotes by Ron, from the Creation of Human Ability, about this …

    I wish BBC Panorama further addressed the HOW and WHY church Scientologists stay stuck in CofS and continue to put up with and support such continuing abuse. That would have truly served the public good by supplying proper understanding to the public.

    I’m frustrated Panorama didn’t drive to the CORE of the problem. For that, they utterly failed in their (what I thought is was supposed to be) job of investigative journalism.

    Marty, Mike, and Amy, you did awesome!

    “One of the primary methods of operation is to make one’s object or action of object so strange that the other viewpoint cannot look away.

    Another is to make the object or action of object so artistic or colorful or interesting that the other viewpoint cannot look away.

    Another method is the command by force for attention.

    Another method is to inhibit the attention so as to invite it solely to one’s objects.”

    – L. Ron Hubbard, Creation of Human Ability

  29. Yes, I can see what they didn’t include. The beatings, the alterations of LRH works, etc. But, at least you could sense the odd behavior of the Mestsavage PI network. I mean, really. What church or spiritual organization would act in such a way?

    Wish there was more information on the independents auditing activities, but then again, it mentioned that some ex-Scn were still Scientologists, so that may plant the seeds in some potentially about-to-leavers that there is hope on the outside, as well as tech application.

    BTW, Marty, I twice wrote to WordPress about your broken RSS feed. They fixed it today. Finally. You owe me an ARC break session. (just kidding)

    Good job on the video. I know you expected more, but a win is in order nonetheless.


  30. Nice job. So what are the secrets BBC failed to tell? I think I speak for many that we’re all very interested in hearing them.

  31. This documentary is phenomenal. The cult is on the defensive, and going down for the count. The UK has done it, Australia has done it, Europe has done it.

    It is now the USA’s turn. The USA is the cult’s last stronghold. The SP Times and CNN pieces were good, but now the heat needs to be turned up.

    In preparation of the crappy DVDs that will inevitably be mailed to everyone in response to this BBC show. Print the following and post it on your porch AND in your mailbox:

    September 28, 2010


    Attempted delivery of any packages from :

    AOLA (Advanced Organization of Los Angeles)
    Flag Services Org.
    Church of Scientology
    Bridge Publications

    Will be refused by this address, do not leave them on the porch. Return them immediately.
    You have the right to refuse delivery of anything which offends you. If thousands of people return these DVDs – it will have quite an impact!

  32. My best friend, not a Scientologist but a savvy guy who spent many years working for the BBC emailed me right after the show finished airing in the UK. In part he said the following:

    “I think the programme, although hard hitting, missed some essential elements. It spent valuable time trying to justify the previous programme when it could have dug deeper into the despot at the ship’s helm and how he managed to re-create Scientology in his own image, which is why good people like yourselves had to leave. It also didn’t try to explain why you still follow the teachings despite escaping the Church’s tendrils. That would have described a fuller picture and not risked coming over as a damnation of a so-called brainwashing cult.”

    I think he summed it up well.

    Having said that Mareka has already had 15 emails from the UK and only one was negative (a current Birmingham org staff member complaining they now have to handle the flap with their parents). The other 14 were supportive and congratulatory — note none are from current Independents.

  33. Well, I thought the meter demo was superb, and I also loved the fact that the BBC got copies of the text messages back and forth between Tommy Davis and Miscavige. That was great.

    Marty, I do wish your discussion on OT III would have been used … it sounds like it could have helped put things in context. Perhaps the BBC would provide the footage for you, and you could post it here.

    Overall though, all the folks interviewed … from the Headleys, to Mike, Marty, Amy, Larry, Mareka, Christie and Jason … you guys did a wonderful job.

  34. I’m into Part Two and maybe it’s not so bad.
    Marty has an ideal auditor beingness IMO.

  35. “But, the secrets that were touted and would have had the most salutory effects were left on the editing room floor.”

    Could you elaborate now that the program has aired?

  36. I thought it was fantastic across the boards.
    It documented the church’s incessant nasty tactics to spy and follow its critics, it showed the church was all into creating it’s own fluff/false PR and totally into MEST, all the while it breaks up families, forces abortions and uses confidential priest/penitent information — in direct violation of the Founder’s polices — as leverage to forward their evil agenda.
    It blew charge for me as well and it clearly forwarded the new Independent movement!
    VVVWD to all the contributed!

  37. I think you may have underestimated the power of this piece.
    Although it isn’t the ideal scene in terms of what we would all want to achieve, this program did a lot to let the world know who you (Marty and Mike particularly) are, how real Scientologists behave (as opposed to the church members) and I believe Scientologists and non-Scientologists alike will come away with something think about.

    I actually enjoyed the show immensely (as did my friends) and the message was carried on a humorous, aesthetic and artistic wave which kept my attention and interest.

    While the full extent of DM’s causation for the destruction of Scientology isn’t spelled out it is artfully implied and probably the first time I’ve seen where he is at least front and center taking some of the flack.
    Sure I would like to see a program which vindicates LRH and Scientology and place the responsibility squarely where it belongs on DM’s narrow little shoulders but this is a start.

    Pandora’s box is now open.

    I think John Sweeney did a good job under almost impossible conditions and I think it’s a step in the right direction. But I think he can do better 😉
    Meanwhile, personally, I’m taking a win on this piece, a big one, while simply acknowledging there’s more to be done.

    The really good news is, we haven’t seen DM’s knee jerk reaction yet. It’s a given that he will continue to create a PR nightmare for himself with one of his usual bumbling incompetent attempts at damage control. He’s got to be pretty pissed off that he didn’t manage to avoid being named this time. After all, was that not what he was trying to prevent the last time John Sweeney did a story on the church?

  38. one of those who see

    Marty! Thanks so much for posting it here so we all could see it. I expected much more of a comm lag. I know it must be frustrating dealing with the editing, but alot of good points were made. I liked that Sweeney made a point of mentioning that Mike and others still believe in Scientology. It’s the Church’s actions they oppose. That was great.
    I absolutely love that the Auditor in you always comes out. Sweeney saw that Scientology works in that moment. Fantastic. Very big deal for that guy.
    I also thought that you and Mike did a great thing for Sweeney by showing what was done to him with the buttons. And also Mike confirming that he wasn’t paranoid, he was being followed back in 2007. Showed how the Church operates and also helped Sweeney as a being. Very cool.
    Disconnection was talked about loud and clear. Thank you Mareka. You also did a wonderful job and that was very brave. I’m so sorry about your fiancee.
    Through Amy and Jason people saw the outpoint of private information being communicated to the public if you speak out against the church.
    We all probably have a wish list of what else we would have liked included. But alot was there.

  39. Anonymous for Now

    Great job to all involved! I do see Marty’s point on not nailing Miscavage more, but I do think that enough was shown to expose that current management is off the rails. The before and after of Mike Rinder is enough to make people see something was clearly wrong back when he was still in. Also, Tommy Davis is just a total mess…he looks like a complete madman.

    The meter Demo was excellent and cast a very positive picture of how it works, and also a hint on how it could be used against a person. I loved seeing the part of the LRH interview (introduction to Scientology) and the pictures of students at Saint Hill. I think that segment of the interview showed a happier time in Scientology.. Then later on in the program showing segments of the crazy Orientation Film; the “OT III” segment; confidential session data being recorded and in some cases released; and disconnection from family, clearly painting a different picture on how things are now under the current Management. I think these points will hit home to anyone on the fence.

    Thanks again to all those who stuck their neck out. The Merchants of Chaos usually don’t get much right, so considering that, I thought this was pretty damn good!

  40. Thank you Marty, Mike, Amy (and everyone who contributed) for making this a priority, for leaving jobs and homes and families, for putting up with all you had to endure from the church, and for forfeiting your privacy to participate in this documentary.

    I know you had in mind something more damning, more revealing, something that would bring us closer to justice for the people and the subject that have been wronged by the sadism and sociopathy of dm. I think, too, that the BBC should have had more courage and more integrity, but I ‘m not sorry about the final product.

    So few people in this world ever give scientology a thought. For them, this documentary is going to be very revelatory, and thoroughly damning. It will become their stable data about miscavige’s cult. And to those who are paying attention but who’s involvement is not as intense as those of us on these blogs, it is further documentation and corroboration of what they have been hearing for the past year and a half; the c of m has truly become a cult of greed, violence, fear and hatred, and it’s run by a filthy mouthed, hateful little man with funny hair and a speech impediment.

  41. I’m taking a big fat win on the Panorama program. Once again the cult has proven they could hang themselves with a shoelace. Apparently it also holds the world’s record on foot-bullet marksmanship. And if the cult had no bad luck, they’d have no luck at all.

    The Panorama program offered its viewers a clear view of:

    1. The malleable cult celebrities who are coached to ask rhetorical questions that aren’t the least bit rhetorical, e.g., Anne Archer’s faux furious snarl, “Do I look brainwashed to you?” (Cringe!)

    2. Cathy Rinder’s over-the-top shriekage, a dramatic contrast with her demure matron in the second row image on Anderson Cooper 360. Those two images beg someone, anyone, please, to overlay her AC360 video footage with Sweeney’s phone recordings of her foul and hateful language.

    3. The regimentation and depersonalization of today’s Sea Org.

    4. The cult’s obsession with respectability and ‘property portfolio’ (love that term).

    5. The relentless and arrogant harassment of those who found the courage to leave a cult they had joined as children to regain their sanity and freedom.

    6. The idiocy of confiding ANYTHING to an auditor or any other agent of the current-day ‘Church of Scientology’.

    7. The homophobic and sadistic sexual obsessions of the self-anointed ‘Pope of Scientology’ – David Miscavige.

    Happily, the program also demonstrated:

    1. The difference that three years away from RPF imprisonment can make – in Mike, who is so much happier, brighter, healthier and relaxed than he was in 2007.

    2. The contrast between Tommy Davis’s and Jan Eastgate’s covert hostility and the normal human affection and communication available from Marty, Amy, Mike, Claire, Marc, Jason.

    3. The high personal integrity and courage of every one of the Independent Scientologists and critics!

    4. The simple fact that Scientology philosophy and practices are valued and applied to good effect outside the cult.

    Tonight, the Internet is immensely more powerful than the cult’s lies. Any ‘Secrets of Scientology’ not imparted through the Panorama program can be shared on this and other blogs. Starting tomorrow, each of us can choose to start more conversations with loved ones and friends. In those conversations, gradients and ARC apply, and active listening beats the hell out of sermonizing. I had one of those conversations earlier this week. The evidence against the cult is everywhere and will be seen when people choose to look.

    I no longer wonder about when the cult will topple. I don’t worry about its beautiful, empty buildings or its billions of dollars hidden in offshore bank accounts or David Miscavige’s tight grip on the church’s throat – nothing can prop it up. The Church of Scientology is stone cold dead.

    If Scientology survives, and I believe it will, it will do so in the sunshine, shared spontaneously among friends and disseminated freely on the Internet – not doled out as bait or sold as statuses or indulgences.

    Thank you to everyone who contributed to this program. I appreciate your efforts very much. Everything will turn out fine.

    Just Me

  42. Even if much of the more in depth information was left on the cutting room floor, much info was included in this report to cause people to do some further research into the matter. It opened the door to truth…and let some sunshine in.

    I wish the report included more about the Fair Gaming and destruction of the lives of people they consider ‘critics’. This report exposed just some of the tactics OSA does. (videotaping, harrassing, following, bullbaiting, Black PR…etc.) A special report on these tactics and how they go about doing this…more specific details, seems to be important information to expose too.

    I think it is well done nevertheless! Nothing to be discouraged about. We humanbeings have what is known as a ‘Slide Effect’ of our minds…given too much heavy and/or shocking information, we will shut down or lose interest and turn to something more simple. Sweeney had to create something for a broad range of people who are NOT Scientologists and who may know very little about the subject. Perhaps hitting his audience too hard with ALL the facts would not have been the best thing in this respect.

    I was fascinated with the mini ‘auditing’ & demonstration of the e-meter, Marty. Real auditing, done with confidentiality, ethics and compassion, is still the very best type of counseling one could participate in! It DOES work when done right, with an auditor who is well trained and has his own ethics *in*. I can certainly attest to that!

    Don’t let your hearts be discouraged that all was not said in the one hour Mr. Sweeney had to reveal it. That would NOT have been enough time anyway. I have a funny ‘feeling’ that the heavier ‘secrets’ that you might think were left on the cutting room floor…may actually be being edited at this very moment, to be used in the sequel to this first real expose’.

    I say all this, but I am still sad tonight…just seeing people behave so poorly, without a conscience…without class and in such a criminal manner as OSA does…the destructive hurtful things they have done…the absolute EVIL…it is heartbreaking. They are not defending real Scientology…they are defending themselves from exposure…most of the people in the church are innocent and good people…unassuming and unaware of all the destructive/criminal things that are done in the name of Scientology by these few. The shame is…it is the actions of the few…the evil minions and OSA at the behest of ‘certain others’ …that is sullying the name of a once amazing knowledge, philosophy…and religion that real Scientology is…

    Critics have no power over TRUTH and good and right things…So why is OSA, et al; so afraid of a critic or two…or even 100?…If they were doing nothing wrong? What would they care…if it were not true? In this case a critic would have no effect at all…if there was nothing to expose.

    The are seeing ‘enemies’ everywhere. Doing evil to people who simply have a difference of opinion. When you watch the way OSAbots follow and video their ‘enemies’…it looks almost like the ridiculous follies of the ‘keystone cops’…if only what they do wasn’t also so evil and heinous…if their purpose for existance wasn’t to set about looking for and creating ‘enemies’ of mere people everywhere for saying the wrong thing to the wrong person at the wrong time…and taking it all wrong!…


  43. Great show … glad that phone conversation hysteria incident was recorded. Hard to spin an indisputable fact though no doubt the church will somehow. I feel positive about disseminating Scientology and being able to break apart ridges by handling the consideration most people I have talked to seems to have and that is that “official” Scientology looks like, talks like and walks like a corporate greed machine. LRH would be disappointed that his church turned into this.

  44. Very poorly done.

    It strikes me as if there was no real purpose behind doing it. I would have assumed that to really get their points of Cofs misbehaviour across to the viewers, there would have been at least a focusing on specific misbehaviour to really punch it home. None of that occured, more of a shotgun shooting powder puffs than any real attempt to hit home on any issue. A waste of time.

    Given that per comments on this post, maybe the ‘floor editing’ segments can appear.

    One very good and unexpected thing that popped up, was the mention of the indi movement. That was very good, and perhaps that is what will stay in the minds of CoS viewers.

    Mike Rinder looked so very, very much better after leaving the CofS. That alone may make some viewers think.

    None of my criticism is aimed at Marty or Mike. Both came across very well indeed, professional and believeable.

    One of these day, some producer is going to get it right. Hit the fair game, disconnection, RPF brainwashing, etc., and really put the focus on what the focus should be on.

  45. “In fact, the secrets they promised to tell never made it into the final edit. ‘

    It’s now the time to reveal what the BBC couldn’t, or wouldn’t. Marty, Mike it’s over to you.

  46. “OT III” story on TV is no big deal – LRH himself tried to sell it around Hollywood during the late 70s for cash, so it can’t be THAT big a deal, except perhaps to someone who is JUST about ready to run it!

    Auditor and the mind’s protection.

    OT III – if you aren’t NEAR (below) that awareness characteristic, is just science fiction that goes in one ear and out the other. RUNNING OT III, with reality, is quite a different story, as those who have done it can/will attest.

    Brigham Young taught that the sun and moon were populated (the moon by people who wore Quaker-style hats!). Hasn’t hurt Mormonism one bit.

  47. I had the same reaction.

  48. Marty, I am sorry about your disappointment. However, I must say that this program did a great job of painting a picture of Miscavige’s “church” as being a supremely creepy, greedy and DANGEROUS cult. If I were a non-Scientologist watching this program, I would get the idea that there might be something to the subject of Scientology but the organization is very, very sinister. It appears they will lure you in with smiles, get you to open up to them, take your money, and then use your secrets and any other leverage they have against you if you decide to speak up because you don’t like the way things are going. If I were a non-Scientologist seeing this program, it would make me want to stay the hell away from that organization. To that degree, the program is a huge success. Kudos to you, Sir.

  49. That was my first thought. The hounded look of Mike under COB vs. his decent, healthy appearance now tells volumes.

  50. This blog does not open people’s eyes. People have to have their eyes open at least a little bit to even look here. Most of the ones I’ve tried to have look at it just shut their eyes tighter.

  51. Marty, I think you need to get over railing about the BBC’s work on this one. For what it set out to be, and compared with other stories I’ve seen, it was pretty good.

    As I wrote on this very board in another thread, the topic is just too big to cover in an hour, and Scientology is, in the scheme of things, not really important enough or broadly impactful enough to make the 10 part mini-series one would require to properly cover the topic.

    BBC’s audience was not those still “in” (who of course wouldn’t watch it anyway). The focus on DM beating up people would not mean a whole lot to the average person COMPARED WITH the rest of the wackiness of the COS. It would just be an interesting tidbit.

    Sure, I’m sorry they caved on even spending a few minutes detailing it, but I think the story did the greatest good for the greatest number of people.

  52. I liked the way the new movement was labeled the Reformation; though I’m not sure I’m ready yet for it to be called that, the taste of how it sounded was helpful.

  53. I very much enjoyed the presentation. There are a lot of non Scientologists watching this and I would be interested in their take on it.
    I would certainly like to read about everything that was cut out that Mike and Marty considered should have been left in. Would you two be able to write a statement about it all so that your readers can follow?
    Very well done to all of those who participated (Mike, Marty, Amy, Marc, Claire, Jason, Larry, Mareka, and Christie).

  54. I hadn’t read this blog entry before seeing the program and somewhere along the line I paused it, turned to my wife and exclaimed, “But where’s the gory details? This is little more than surface fluff!” That being said, it would still be shocking to anyone on the outside looking in. And for that reason I applaud the effort.

    It’s amazing to me that major programs like this can be bullied by the church. I recently heard of one in a major metropolis in the USA where the program had been filmed, but OSA having gotten wind of it, bullied the station repeatedly until it was pulled before airing. I was shocked to find this out and wondered how many other major (or minor for that matter) cities have NOT run exposés due to OSA interference. To see the BBC get shut down makes me a bit concerned about the possibility of reform…

  55. “But, the secrets that were touted and would have had the most salutory effects were left on the editing room floor.”

    That may well be Marty, but, is there some reason they have to *stay* there? What would there be that would keep you or Mike or anyone else who knew the secrets that you shared with Panorama from publishing them right here?

    Sure, there wouldn’t be the kind of ‘production values’ or even video (unless you felt like filming it) that a mainstream media extravaganza would offer, but, my impression is that you respect the founding fathers of our nation, who, when they didn’t have media coverage, published their *own* broadsides.

    Much as you do here. So, why not tell the secrets *here*??

    Joe Lynn

  56. I couldn’t believe how much better Mike Rinder looks today compared to when he was working for Miscavige. In the Panorama from 2007, Rinder looked like he hadn’t slept or eaten in months, and they may have been true, literally. It just goes to show what good food, good sleep and disconnection from Miscavige and cult will do for one’s health.

    Miscavige may have “covered his ass”, for now, but I still see one giant disgusting crack when I watch the BBC show. I think my favorite part may have been when John Sweeney asked Anne Archer (Tommy Boy’s mother) if she was part of a brainwashing cult, to which she responded with what she though was a rhetorical question “Do I look brainwashed?” John Sweeney doesn’t say anything and looks up in the air, to which Archer responds “How dare you!” ROTFLMAO! None of the celebrities come across well in this.

  57. Marty,
    Do not take this as a loss. You and Mike have caused more damage to the DM than those Anonymous idiots. All they are capable of is sending people pizzas or making prank calls. You had them pegged right from the beginning. They are kids who believe that by owning a computer they can rule the world.

  58. I for one was impressed and pleased by the entire program. This is definitely not going to go well for Davey. Great job to everyone who participated.

  59. Your nick says it all.

  60. Yes Martin, I agree. For the bulk of the population this is a pretty powerful piece. The section on OT III was juvenile trash, but what can we expect from a media outfit having to deal with juvenile trash like Tommy “I’ll do anything no matter how immoral to suck up to David Miscavige” Davis, and their army of uber-creepy PIs trying to push in anchor points by flooding them with video cameras?

    Like you said Marty, it’s Miscavige: ALWAYS ready to throw the entire religion and LRH under the nearest bus to “deny” his own guilt and thereby demonstrate it to the world.

    The show demonstrated that 1) the Church breaks up families, 2) the Church is run by liars, 3) the Church will go to any expense to discredit and harass media and any whistle blowers, 4) the Church uses covert surveillance, 5) David Miscavige “one of the greatest spiritual leaders of the 13th century” (or whatever) is a poster child for Profanity-R-Us, 6) the Church prefers abortions over children, 7) the Church shamelessly manipulates celebrities into being mouthpieces, 8) the Church uses Scientology in reverse to trigger critics into fits of hostility that they can video and use against them, 9) the Church secretly videos everyone who gets auditing from them, 10) the Church collects and uses blackmail material (just like J. Edgar Hoover) to control people.

    All the ex- and Independent Scientologists came off as sincere and completely believable unlike Church terminals who just came off as slime bags and liars.

    Overall, David Miscavige once again got out his primary message: “No one can stop us because we are more aggressive than anyone. I am the living embodiment of aggression.”

    The only problem is: aggression isn’t the solution to what ails this planet. It’s the problem. Thus Miscavige has dished out more of the worst marketing in the history of the human race.

    VWD to Mike, Marty, Mareka, Christie, Marc, Claire, Amy, Jason and Larry.

  61. martyrathbun09

    Thanks for that. Appreciate it. Come on down and we’ll get the session done.

  62. I noticed that too.

  63. So what are the secrets they left out?


  64. Very nice job. It shows creepy cult is creepy. No decent person would go near them after that. For the general public, I think that was just right. What kind of “church” follows people, spies on them?

    Look at the Before and After Mike. My god, that in itself I think is the most telling part of the programme. Before Mike looked drawn, hunted, in pain even, After Mike looks incredible – decent, strong, healthy. That is the part that stands out the most for me and others over here. (It was wonderful, wonderful, WONDERUL to see Mike looking so good now, and free). 😀

    The complexities of this issue are tl;dr for most public, they don’t want to get into all that. Out gradient, or too much information. The parts omitted for legal reasons, well, another time, another place. It’s all good. The main point is that this is a nasty, mean, and vindictive cult, and should come with a public health warning.

    The religious beliefs are not at issue here, it is the BEHAVIOR that tells all.

    VVVWD to all!

  65. You poor lost soul. Repeated applications of the same dirty tricks will simply not work here.

    Michael A. Hobson

  66. One that seems unlikely to be answered.

    Joe Lynn

  67. Steve and Martin, I completely agree with your assessments. The show was excellent and well put together. It comes across like a documentary film more than a TV show. It helps to hold the viewers interest in my opinion. While this is all old news to us on this blog, the BBC has very wide reach and to the average person watching, they have been forwarned about the abuses going on in DM’s version of Scientology. Even if his name is hardly mentioned.

    Another feather in DM’s cap for helping to destroy all that LRH put together.

    Great job Mike, Marty, Amy, Marc, Claire, Mareka and Christie. I am proud to have you as friends.

  68. Mike, My best wishes and intentions for your kids to see the light and join you on the outside. You and Marty were excellent in these interviews. — Peter

  69. Mike Rinder did state Miscavige message


    Ah yes, DM setting a good example as the “Leader of the world’s most rapidly expanding religion !”

  70. It was OK! All the indie’s came across well and the church came across as it usually does. More of the media might now take the ‘reformation’ angle when reporting the church which would be a huge win for the Indie movement 🙂

    To simply see whistlblowers looking like social beings will start shifting the cogs in some people. VWD to all who took part!

  71. Good, kudos to Marty and Mike’s participation, you helped make it more insightful than it otherwise might have been.

    Fail for ignoring DM’s physical abuse of staff, most likely that’s due to UK libel laws, I guess.

    Still, hats off to Sweeney for a job well done!!

  72. (Argh…I put my comments in the wrong blog entry! So here’s the copy/paste)
    VWD y’all! I just watched it all (in stealth mode, of course, for the untainted family o’mine) and I thought it was very well done.
    Mike, now that this has aired, I do believe you can dish, right?
    IMO it was a good portrayal of how the CofM abuses its staff/followers. There were no staff talking normally about it, only staff who’ve left, talking abnormally about it. Showing celebrities acting all weird, which is how they came across to me, didn’t help CofM.
    The meter demo was GREAT and showed some workability to the meter.
    Being followed…crazy and psycho. Why?
    Mike’s recording…proof positive of psychosis. Anybody screaming like that is just upsetting, no matter who or why, especially family members at each other.
    Amy’s point re. CofM sending anything regarding her sex life to the paper and neighbors! WTF…gross and disgusting and surely viewed as slimy in ANY circles.
    Marty, maybe the secrets you told weren’t included, but there were “secrets” that CofM does not want parishioners to know revealed. I was shocked by a lot of this stuff because I haven’t read everybody’s books yet or all the stuff on the web. So without much of that info, it seemed like a lot of secrets of the CofM were revealed.
    IMO if a person who knew nothing of LRH came across this video, there was enough to stop them from walking into a CofM but not enough to stop them from looking for Independents to learn about LRH instead. This is a GREAT thing!
    I am biased, of course, but I’m also deeply immersed in the greenfield.
    Mike, you look like you got the “bring back to life” process run on ya. 😉 Marty, you’re looking quite dashing (and soooooo much better than your swimming pool days of white particularly)!
    The family portraits were touching and heartbreaking, especially to me, a mother, sister and step-granny…I was in tears over their losses.

    So again, VWD to all of you!

    Martin, awesome getting on the air! You came across well and thanks for the props to LRH.

  73. Church of Scientology executives admit that its own members choose of their own volition to cut all ties with their children, cut all ties with their grandchildren, cut all ties with their sisters and brothers and cut all ties with their friends.

  74. what Sam said…ditto
    Also, Tommy Davis, you are a master at glutz PR, as directed by David Miscavige. The differences “can be seen by a blind man”, unbelievable.
    All tolled, it is a winner because it goes majorly in the right direction and has certainly caused some pain to Der Midget, which is always a good thing.
    You have impinged and not been harmed, in fact you all came across very well.

    What’s next on the program, Marty and Mike????

  75. Why are you attacking all Anonymous? If it wasn’t for them to show people that it is safe to speak out and fight Co$ abuses, I wonder how many newly idependents would be either still in Co$ or hiding their head in the sand.

  76. Wayne Froemke (AKA "Safe")

    Words cannot express how joyful I am about being with such Intelligent Beings here, and the sharing of gifts of light with each other.

    No other blog or forum on the planet (I know) is expressing such intelligent commentary of this BBC Panorama program as Marty’s blog is here.

    Here is where smart people learn, with in-depth detail about what’s really going on with CofS, and become truly enlightened even moreso, IMO.

    I love you all!

  77. You’re so right about the ‘slide effect’. Although I was also disappointed that it was relatively tame, the friend (who knows nothing about it) that I watched it with was shocked. And the British are great champions of the underdogs and ‘fair play’. If this Panorama had included all the stuff they could have put it it might have had the opposite effect on British viewers, ie ‘that’s completely over the top – it can’t be that bad – Panorama must be exagerrating’. I think that it is very possible that the out-takes WILL show up in future programme(s). In the meantime there’s a quite a lot in the papers.
    Just getting the subject into the public agenda is a tremendous feat. The libel laws mean that there is virtually nothing in the media in this country about scientology. When I try to talk about the abuses the usual response is “but they believe in aliens, how can anyone take them seriously?…people who believe in aliens wouldn’t be capable of that sort of thing”

  78. Wayne Froemke (AKA "Safe")

    The “secrets” they left out would take, perhaps, about 20 hours of video or more, and then there would still be some left out.

    To learn more about the “secrets” BBC Panorama left out in the short hour they had, just read all the posts and the commentaries on this blog.

    Perhaps all these “secrets” may be a secret to most people (including most church Scientologists), they are no longer secrets to the readers here.

    David Miscavage and his henchmen have been found out!

  79. What the hell’s a few nails to Pometheus?

    Bat Viewer

  80. I’m just watching. Great job from You guys! Sweeney “in session” on the BBC. Incredible! It seems he does a great job as well. Very well done. You are heroes, you are fantastic. 🙂

  81. Impartial English Girl

    It’s important to remember that the BBC is entirely publicly-funded (their “parishoners” money, if you will. Therefore, their legal battles would also have to be funded by the TV Licence-payers. Whilst I truly regret that the entirety of what Mr. Rathbun hoped to achieve ended, in part, on the cutting-room floor, I appreciate why SOME caution had to be exercised. Otherwise, the BBC may have found itself having to answer some difficult questions to the Government to explain why so much public money was going into litigation against Squirrel Nutkin (although that, in itself, would be an interesting scenario… hehehe…)

  82. I am a non-scientologist. In Belgium, where I’m from, scientology is considered to be a cult. I thought the program was great, but it felt like an ‘introduction’ more than a complete in depth look. It looked as if the cos warrants a whole series rather than a one hour program. In any case, to me, John Sweeney showed very clearly to steer clear of this church but at the same time was open to your beliefs. The celebrities looked like total idiots and so did Tommy Davies.
    The Headley’s story is very moving and I wish them all the best. Their family situation is closest to my own and to live your life separate from your parents and siblings because of the cos policies is beyond comprehension.
    All in all, thumbs up!
    Marty and Mike, may you achieve your goals and live a happy life with your loved ones. Your courage is inspiring. Although I don’t share your beliefs, your personal stories have stopped me looking at scientology as something to be ridiculed but rather blame the church for its wrongdoings.
    PS. The demonstration of the e-meter on Panorama was definitely intriguing. But as I don’t want to end up on a cos mailing list, I will pass, may be until the church is reformed or dissolved. Keep up the good work!

  83. You are right!
    I also like to add to “9) the Church secretly videos everyone who gets auditing from them,”
    As the church confirmed with BBC that all the videoed session, of Tom Cruise (Pre-OT) and Marty Rathbun (auditor at the time) and all Tom C’s personal, confidential , was watched by certain staff for training purposes.
    Wow! Does Tom Cruise know that his BFF “David Miscavige” shows Tom Cruise’s private and confidential sessions to his staff and even admits to such a crime to BBC Panorama.
    I don’t think any raw public after watching this would want to go near any Scientology church. 🙂

  84. A big thank you to all involved !

    While the show may have omitted things it has nevertheless increased the reality of people about what’s going on in the cult.

  85. Wayne Froemke (AKA "Safe")

    On second thought, after reading many of the extremely intelligent commentaries here by such great Beings here, I am no longer frustrated at BBC Panorama anymore, as I realize they communicated at a reality level the public could accept.

    In other words … easy-to-digest, gradient “acceptable truths”.

    It would likely be asking too much of the broad public to be able to confront the idea that DM’s ambition is to push his dogma and inculcation, planetary wide, and that CofM is already a virtual replicate microcosm of the inculcation that’s done in North Korea to their suppressed and dominated Subjects.

    Yes, to make that comparison would very likely be way too much to swallow for those new to what’s going on. Because the significance of what CofM has accomplished so far is too evil to fathom what a horrendous future it could be, if it were a success.

    But if one really wants to know the grim hell of reality DM is taking the direction of CofM, look no further than North Korea.

    One wonders why church Scientologists don’t rebel and get out? Look no further than the reason the Citizens of North Korea don’t rebel.

    They’ve been totally inculcated through domination, just as those in CofM. Somebody posted here that CofM “is a microcosm of the NWO.” Well, I say now that the CofM is a microcosm of North Korea.

    DM’s ambition of craving attention and admiration knows no bounds, IMO.

    He would love nothing more than this type of inculcation regarding him, as it is for the “Great Leader” being literally inculcated in class with these exact words.

    North Korea schooling inculcation …

    “How many types of greatness does the Great Leader have? Three.

    Firstly? Greatness in ideology.

    Second? Greatness in leadership.

    Third? Greatness in aura.”

    “When we receive the Great Leader’s leadership, we are destined to be eternally happy.”

    The ABOVE is the direction of CofM, IMO.

    Watch these shocking videos and I believe you’ll likely see where I/we’re coming from … (Valkov and Sinar, You get it! Thank you for your earlier posts about this here )

  86. Well, the concept of spiritual entities influencing people isn’t really new.

    In 1924 a psychiatrist oublished a book to reform psychiatry. He had discovered that his patients were suffering from such entities. He was able to transfer these from the patient to another person – the patient got well and the other person suffered now from the patient’s symptoms.

    And he developed a therapy to finally heal these entities by increasing their awareness, resulting in no one suffering from them any more.

    He was some 200 years ahead of psychiatry of course, so his methods were not accepted.

    The book is “30 years among the dead” by Carl Wickland. It has even been translated to German ( title : “30 Jahre unter den Toten” ) and is available here today.

  87. A solid point you have there Wayne! The documentary failed to drive to the heart of the problem. This of course flies in the teeth of good investigative journalism.

    The Count

  88. Wayne Froemke (AKA "Safe")

    Centerion wrote, “Yes, I can see what they didn’t include. The beatings, the alterations of LRH works, etc.”

    As bad as the Staff beatings are, and how much I despise the alterations of LRH works, these too are just symptoms behind what’s really going on, IMO.

  89. Wayne Froemke (AKA "Safe")

    IMO, this …

    However, I understand now why they didn’t. Perhaps, many, many future BBC Panorama’s later, they will do some comparisons which will show the true grimness of CofM.

  90. Wayne Froemke (AKA "Safe")

    Oops. My comment above post directed at answering Patty Pieniadz ‘s question …

    “So what are the secrets BBC failed to tell? I think I speak for many that we’re all very interested in hearing them.”

  91. One thing that really got to me was the verbal abuse that Mike had to take from his family, and out of the blue too. If my family were to say things like that to me it would totally tear me apart. I don’t think I’d be able to talk about it to a reporter because I’d be too upset about it. Its awesome, however, that Mike was strong enough to talk about it, and that Sweeney was on the other end of the line to get it all. Huge props to Mike for that.

  92. Thanks Steve. Insightful as usual and a great sum-up.

  93. Hello, As I neither consider myself at current an organizational Scientologist or an Independent but rather a neutral, although I avail myself frequently of Mr Hubbards basic books and CDs which stop me from getting worse and pick up my daily spirit. And have enjoyed some of the Scientology Auditing methodology in the past as well. I was gobsmacked and well impressed by the superb beingness of Mike and Marty and John Sweeney. So impressed that “We of the “vampire community” would be prepared to offer you a substantial PR contract to represent our kind in future programs”

    I await to see what impression certain publics will imagine from this but one lady told me that she was not aware the Scientology was educational as opposed to just something you would just believe in.


  94. The Production team of Panorama had to do some damage control for their 2007 piece. Ok. And I didn´t get the idea that the BBC and Panorama really care if the facts about Scientology are spelled out. Roger that.

    BUT…. I take a win, Marty. I loved the meter demo, your whole approach is positive and in comm, your smile is enchanting 🙂 Many have noted here how unwell Mike looked when shown clips from 2007 comparing to his good looks of today. Well this is very true for me. Do you know that it was one of my first alarms back in the early 2000´s when I observed both you and Mike look so unhappy and gray. The 2 man who had my most respect were sort of withering away in front of me. It was awful and left me deeply saddened. And look at you now !! I take a personal big win on that.
    Mareka is just…sincere and superb. Go ahead, be my guest and dispute what she had to say. A thought of her going back on that memorylane, back when she said goodbye to her man, have me emotional. Thanks Mareka for sharing so personal moment. Amy did great, as per usual. AMY YOU ROCK!!

    In the contrast, those still hovering near DM and who you see and hear in this program acts as a repellent, makes you not want to reach for the subject. Their message: The church is practicing disconnection, use PI´s and lawyers to intimidate and harass, spell out and publish priest/penitent privileged information. Anyone of them (Dear Leader, Tommy, the screaming ex´s and execs, celebs), would in drop of a hat turn against you and pour shit all over you. And they are. And not just you but on LRH. Shame on them.

    Mr. Sweeney gets a star from me. If he feels the Producer curtailed his message, try the Independent field, my advice 🙂

    And as for the “secrects” – well, tune in here folks.

  95. Thanks JM. Your pearls of wisdom always bring a valuable perspective to the ongoing demise of the Vulture Culture. Mike

  96. Thanks to all for your kind words. Your perspectives about the program are insightful and they help giver perspective — not always easy when you are immersed in something. And yes, I am doing much better than I was when I was sleeping on the floor of the Hole, eating rice and beans and being constantly threatened with dire consequences for every move, thought or breath.

  97. All my appreciation, Mike.

  98. I found this interesting:

    ‘Deep in the Amazon jungle, writer Kira Salak tests ayahuasca, a shamanistic medicinal ritual, and finds a terrifying—but enlightening—world within’

  99. So, Marty and Mike, you may think the secrets have not been told as they should have – I’m sure they have not. This blog contains much more of much hotter stuff – come on, what is disconnection, spying … that’s old hat and (personally) well known to us.

    Maybe one reaction to the program by a non-Scientologist who knows all this old-hat material first hand may be telling:


    It took me the better part of an hour to calm her down.

    Maybe, after all, it is not so bad a gradient to the general public so that the really bad stuff, when it is told in public media, doesn’t fly over their head and registers for what it really is.

    Well done to all concerned and thank you.

  100. I’ve got a great idea for the title of your next post, Marty!

    “What the BBC, CNN, ABC and Every Other News Outlet in the World is Afraid to Tell You About David Miscavige and the Church of Scientology”

  101. The most telling moment to me was when Marty had Sweeney on the meter and did the pinch test, etc. Although it was not the purpose of the demonstration, one could see that Sweeney was perfect bait for inducement into the actual procedures of the technical aspects of Scientology. He was interested in the mind and the electronic response and what it represented. It stood out to me as an artistic statement in itself. If Marty wanted to, he could make him his Tony Hitchman so to speak.
    For those who are disappointed that the program did not deliver up to their expectations after the initial hype following Anderson Cooper, you can rehab the bypassed release point by locating the time of the release and asking what was suppressed, invaled, unacknowledged and not-ised.

  102. I thought this program was hard enough hitting to be real to the non-scientology public. And the brilliant juxtaposition of Panorama 2007 vis a vis the new show was terrific. Mike’s calm and happy demeanor itself was worth the entire hour.

    Just Me’s review was on point, insightful and thoughtful – with her great humor mixed in!

    I gave up awhile ago worrying about when the walls of dmology would fall. Heck, the coliseum is still standing. A shadow of itself, but still there.

    The good news is there are no more slaves being led to slaughter. No more gladiators forced to do the bidding of the depots. No more screaming chanting crowds goading the lions, the gladiators.

    It’s empty. It’s a sad memory.

    Thanks to the BBC, Mike, Marty, the Headleys, Amy, Mareka, Jason and Larry — very few new people will step into an Idle Org, those in will start feeling more foolish and leave.

    On the completely unexpected side …

    “Something WONDERFUL is happening” —

    Just this past week I reconnected with two of my closest Sea Org friends. Two wonderful souls who I haven’t spoken to in 30 years. They left, I left, they moved, I moved and we lost touch.

    Two fabulous souls whose lives are full, happy, productive and very far from the madness we once knew.

    This reconnection happened because of this blog.

    I am so grateful.


  103. KAT
    “PS. The demonstration of the e-meter on Panorama was definitely intriguing. But as I don’t want to end up on a cos mailing list, I will pass, may be until the church is reformed or dissolved. Keep up the good work!”

    Hi Kat, I have a very good friend and independent/Freezone scientologist
    who lives in Brussels. I’m sure he’d be very happy to give you a demonstration. 🙂 If you’re interested mail me at

  104. For me this was a well done TV documentary. Production value was high with compelling B roll shots, dramatic music (shots with no person s;peaking), VO’s (Sweeney talking over a shot), multiable Scientology facility locations. The challage for the producer is to keep the viewer in their seat and away from the remote control.

    IMHO the BBC scored well and I suspect their audience stayed with this show. If you were a non-scientologist I did not see any reason why a viewer would reach for this cult like religion. Not one.

    For me the whole hour was summed up with that very long and very tragic tear coming down Mareka’s cheek. There is no joy in this cult. Yes, “Just Me” is correct, the Church of Scientolgy is stoned cold dead

  105. By the way Marty, absolutely wonderful TRs and comm cycle when you had Sweeney on the cans. THAT is what an auditor looks and sounds like folks!!!

    I think the program hit all the right notes. It’s only an hour, guys. I don’t think there was time to cover why people stay, etc. Miscavige’s agenda and the difference between Scientology and the church would not have been very real to a new audience (unfortunately so on the latter point about the ACTUAL applied philosophy of Scientology).

    It was powerful stuff watching the Headleys. I image that many in the audience must have thought as I did, that the aunts, uncles and grandmothers would never get to know those two cute little guys. Terribble for any group to promote such “reverse ARC.” Just terrible. Well, if there’s a demand for a sequal……

    Well Done Marty and Mike.

  106. If you did a complete review of the length and breadth of this blog, I think many of the “secrets” have been exposed re dm’s antics, behavior, whatever. If I am not mistaken, the hope was to get a wide audience for the data already provided and for possibly some new “secrets”.
    Though I am no fan of Debbie Cook, the stories on her experiences alone at dm’s party ranch would be enough to close down any activity by the authorities, in my opinion.
    A LOT of progress has been made by virtue of this site- there is a tremendous amount of civil disobedience that has already amassed and yesterday I became aware of any more ( a lot more ) by bringing up some of the subjects I have become aware of on this site with an old friend in Co.
    My hat is off to Marty for what has been accomplished with this website, both above and below the radar. I know I could not have done what has been carried out here- many have withered under the attacks mounted by c of s in the past and though hopes weren’t realized with the BBC show- look around, your closest friends may be reading the same things you are and wondering who it is safe to talk to about what they have read- I have had more than a few major surprises in the last month.

  107. Mike,
    Did DM always use extremely degrading profanity towards his own team since you’ve known him or did it slowly or suddenly accelerate and permeate his vocabulary?

    The first and most glaring outpoint about this shmuck Miscavige for me was the LRH death announcement event where I was stunned more so by the complete lack of TRs, ARC and comm cycle of Miscavige, much more so than the announcement of LRH’s death itself. The death was expected, this guy on stage who seemed to be made out of clay, a worn-out, no-affinity, animated carcass of subdued arrogance…I could hardly believe this was part of the new management that would carry Scientology forward.

    I not-ised it at the time, even though I saw Broeker as a much, much higher ARC terminal in comparison. I thought about Miscavige, “Oh, ok, I guess he’s ‘all business’. Had he already stacked up enough overts by that time to warrant this soulless attitude? For instance, spearheading the ASI crush sale campaigns to pawn off atrociously overpriced semi-porn posters to Scientologists to rip them off from their money?

  108. Also, any future production should leave alone the spiritual beliefs of Scientologits, as they are irrelevant.

    The goal should always be the exposure of the crimes of the CofS. Talking to the celebs about OTIII is stupid. It doesn’t even make for good watching. Asking the celebs about fair game, disconnection etc, about contents of their folders being publically exposed, and then putting the lie to their denials by showing them examples of such crimes, boy, that would really make for good watching.

    There may well be some very major rewards waiting for the producer who does his/her homework and plans out the program for major effect. Imagine showing the crimes to legislators, and then asking them about their reactions, and putting the light on the tax exemptions. Wow! Major rewards for the producers who pull that off.

  109. Mike,
    I have another question I’ve been wondering about for years. Whose idea was it to run that picket/protest “Sid Klein, What’s Your Crime?” around the Clearwater police department back in the mid-nineties?

    I participated in that and it felt like the stupidest thing to be doing. Was it part of a distraction strategy? Had Klein in fact been committing crimes? I was with others who felt the same way as I did.

  110. What ARE you on about?

  111. Tom, is the S for “shove”?

  112. Regarding the image Tommy Davis and other c of m-dedicated soles appearing on this program (let alone all the camera men) gave of what “real” Scientology is, consider this from HCO PL 20 November 1965, The Promotional Actions oj’ an Organization:

    “Gets pcs in such good shape they are walking advertisements for the HGC and Scientology.”

    How many of those did you see?

    On the other hand I saw a good auditor giving a pinch test which got a critic interested, a former head of OSA destimulating a critic on a past upset with the c of m and a host of other indies that appeared very likable – yet most of them said they like Scientology and this fact was mentioned repeatedly without any denigration.

    Wonder who is an advertisement to Scientology?


  113. David from England

    I left my initial thoughts on the programme on an earlier thread – I thought that the Independents came out as very honest decent people, and the Church as very dodgy.

    The more I think about it, and the more I read the comments here, the more I feel that this was an opportunity missed, even though it was unlikley to turn out any other way.

    By that I mean that John Sweeney was almost obliged to make the programmme he did once Mike and Marty had blown. He had a score to settle with the Church after the ‘exploding tomato’ incident, and what better way to get revenge than by using a defector to corroborate everything the BBC had to say the first time around, especially the spying and stalking.

    But did it tell me anything about Scientology? Not really. And although there would have been material new to some people in there, by and large it was a re-run of every critical programme since Scientology began. To me, the stand-out programme of the past few decades was Channel 4’s ‘Beginners Guide to L Ron Hubbard’. I say standout in the sense that it was one of the few programmes that would actually make someone more interested in scientology (note the lower case S) while being gently aware of the toxic nature of The Church.

    John Sweeney’s film gave viewers little room to see why Scientology has been so attractive to hundreds of thousands over the decades; what we saw was a collection of shouty unattractive apologists, combined with unfairly presented Space Opera material, and a litany of (totally honest) criticisms from people cruelly treated by their church. Perhaps the only point where there was even a glimpse of the positive side to scientology came when Marty had John on the meter – my wife (who has no interest in this matter whatsoever) was genuinely impressed at how the meter was reading something. But beyond that, it did half the job. It will keep people away from the Church. But it is unlikely to lead anyone to examine the subject of scientology further.

    I do not consider myself an ex-scientologist. I did the comm course and a few hours of auditing. I later had a run-in with the Church because I disagreed with the tech, and discovered just how disagreeable the Church can be. But I think there is a massive amount of good in the tech that needs liberating. I see the Independent Scientologists working long and hard to uncover this good material, and I wish them the best. Programmes like this are helpful insofar as they draw people’s attention to the fact that there is an Independent movement out there.

    But I think the direction forward needs to be away from reacting to what the Church gets up to in towards reclaiming the tech. That means more ‘Beginners’ Guides’ and less ‘Panorama’. It’s difficult because the Church is such an oxygen-sucking horror show, and when you can get the media interested, it’s more interested in the negative than the positive. But we do want people to see the positive. Blogs such as Marty’s do a tremdous job in this refocussing work. But on reflection, however pleased I am that Sweeney caused a little more grief for the unspeakable Tommy Davis, I don’t think that programmes such as this take the debate much further. I want to see a programme that looks at how the meter works. I want to see a programme that takes someone through auditing and out of misery into happiness. I’d like to see a programme that focuses on how the technology works. I’d like to see Independents civilly discuss with other mental health practitioners the advantages of scientology. In other words, I want to see scientology come out of its self-imposed ghetto and relate to the outside world once more.

    Right now the Church is talking to itself. I think that Indies offer scientology its only chance to actually engage with the world. For that, the spiral has to be broken – Indies need to be able to present their work on its own terms, not as a ‘cleaned up’ response to the excesses of te Miscavage empire.

    I realise how difficult this is, and I realise that the Church will do anything to stop this. But my feeling is that this is the best way forward.

  114. Thank you, MissBridgett, for the expression “Slide Effect”. I had noticed the phenomenon but didn’t have the language that is used to describe it.

  115. “Failed to drive to the heart of the problem.”

    Sure, but as a gradient step, it was certainly a good move in the right direction.

    Sweeny was once a snarky commentator on scientology, playing to an audience who wanted that.

    Now he is a man who has been on an e-meter, knows that there is “technology” of the mind, and sees the difference between a philosophy and a church. And he communicated that to his audience.

    The heart of the problem is in each of us, some of us knowing it better than the general populance.

    While it is human to want a “big win” solution, it is gradient change that usually prevails.

    Well done all who were involved in the making of this.

  116. martyrathbun09

    David, I believe you are right on the money. Thanks for this.

  117. martyrathbun09

    Tom, we got it right away. Your comedic wit remains sharp as ever.

  118. martyrathbun09

    Thanks Joe. I agree that the Headleys segment was perhaps the best film presentation on the subject of disconnection.

  119. Freedom Fighter

    I agree with many of the comments here. While the BBC backed out of airing some of the more damning testimony against DM, it clearly illustrated how the church has become anything but what it professes to be. The contrast between those who have left the madness and those still very much a part of it was quite stark.

    On the one side, you have stark-raving-mad lunatics (officials of a supposed “church”) who are very antagonistic, obnoxious, and untrustworthy, and on the otherside, you have those who left this insanity who were able to, depite what they’d been through, carry on sane, intellegent conversations about their experiences — and oh the picture those experiences painted!

    I loved how the show highlighted the Independent movement and the fact that most of those now out still practice Scientology as LRH intended it and aren’t the three-headed squirrel monsters that the chuch would have people believe. Quite the contrary, it illustrated very clearly how the church — the biggest squirrel group on the planet, is screaming its own overts loudly in accusation for all the world to see.

  120. What more secrets is there other than the “secrets” of the Reactive Mind” as outlined in L.Ron Hubbards Dianetics the modern science of mental health book and related DVDs ?


  121. martyrathbun09

    As usual, you and Just Me lend great insight and wisdom. Fantastic on your reconnections!

  122. I feel like revising my comments in light of what you wrote. Very sane. Samuel.

  123. Yeah, and what about stuff like people having “demons”, or witch doctors trying to remove spirits from a person. Theres probably hundreds of examples of this in our history if you know what you’re looking at.

  124. “Right now the Church is talking to itself. I think that Indies offer scientology its only chance to actually engage with the world.”

    Well said. I’ve said the same though never so succinctly.

  125. Oh yeah, the hidden camera recording was creepy too! That’s creepy in any circumstance too!

  126. martyrathbun09

    The church has falsely reported in their material that Mike “reported it to the media.” The facts are as BBC stated. Mike happened to be on the phone with Sweeney when the ambush occured – so it was recorded for posterity by the BBC on the other end of the line.

  127. Agreed.

    The beatings are irrelevent, no one cares. History is full of religious nuts burning, murdering, butchering, slaughtering other religious nuts. The antics of DM are insignificant against this back drop.

    DM alterations of LRH are also irrelevent. Who cares.

    It’s the crimes that will cause non-CofSers and CoSers to cringe, and reconsider things, reexamine their experiences. All this other stuff will just fade away as soon as the next tv show comes on. The crimes will impinge and stay. The crimes are what will eventually demand an official investigation.

  128. Congratulations to all who were interviewed. You all did a great job.

    Mike and Marty, I can imagine your frustration – especially given how long an opportunity you gave the BBC – but the world’s most authoritative news channel just showed Miscavige and crew to be engaged in seedy and wicked behaviour. That’s a big win.

    David Miscavige’s penis fetish. Say no more.

    The program was beautifully filmed and produced. It is immensely watchable.

    And now, I trust that other channels may be interested in having the scoops that the BBC passed up.


    PS. How beautiful did Amy, Christie and Mareka look?

  129. I think my leaving was partially dut to Anonymous, but not in the way you might think.

    I see anti-scientology groups like Anonymous as being similar to a Secondary Infection

    Scientology is in danger because of the actions of the Church and DM and is vulnerable to attacks due to this.

    How can Anonymous attack the Church and it’s such an unmanagable offense to the Church? It’s KSW1. The Church has not delivered what it should have. It has not carried on where LRH left off, but has taken the Church in another direction.

    So I don’t look at anti-Scientologist groups as an ally or a friend. I see them as a symptom of major problems that need to be handled if we want to be free to practice Scientology in the future.

    The Church has created these enemies. The Church seems to have scripted a role for them, intentionally or not.

  130. martyrathbun09

    On the ps, add Claire to the equation, and the answer is “very.”

  131. Any auditing I had with a camera (that I am aware of), the auditor told me about it and said if I was uncomfortable that it could be shut off.
    I was told it was for the CS, or for the auditor to review or various things. Basically I got the idea it was so the CS could verify the auditors reads or TR’s and make sure the session was 100% correct which I do not mind.

    I guess what they are doing to Sea Org and others too is just perverting the practice. They either say you werent in session and you were just “admitting to crimes” or something, Or they write all this in a “confession” and have SO sign it if they want to route out.
    That way you admitted to all this on paper and signed it so it’s not really from your auditing.

  132. martyrathbun09

    Steve, as insouciant, non-PTS, and bright as ever.

  133. Would the magnificent seven have drilled that as a group, do you think? I agree that it was disgusting behaviour. It was an absolute gift to Sweeney, of course. So much so, that when Mike held the phone out early on and informed them they were being recorded by the BBC, they continued undaunted with the same over-the-top, hatred spewing.

  134. I thought the whole thing was excellent, particularly for the general viewing public. I had a good laugh listening to two never-involved-in-scientology friends conversing after watching the videos,

    1st friend; “Man, that’s one creepy Cult! That’s gotta be the creepiest Cult on Earth! ”
    2nd friend; “It’s creepier than that!”

  135. martyrathbun09

    absolutely. Down to the last line, scripted and drilled into their heads with a jack hammer by Miscavige. Guarantee it.

  136. A Panorama investigation into the Secrets Of Scientology attracts 4.8million viewers to BBC One.

  137. All of you did a wonderful job and were very sincere. What was communicated from each individuals experience was seen by many and commented on by many.

    The tech is valuable and has changed lives. When used in a controlling way it destroys lives. People I spoke with saw this. The program came across as very real.

  138. Mike I can only say everyone is happy that you’ve escaped what amounts to well over a decade of methodical torture. The only depressing fact is the number of young and old SO members – at Int, PAC, in CMO, Flag, etc… that continue to be held under mind control and are tormented relentlessly, under inexcusable conditions, merely to serve the relentless pursuit of money, silence of dissent and the satisfaction of a sadistic regime, headed by one of the most serve napoleon complexes in history.

    Until all those poor people trapped in Miscavige’s SO empire are free – silence is not only not acceptable, but it is aiding and abetting the crime. I am concerned about public Scientologists in the cult, but nothing compares to what is done to the members of the SO who live under the direct control and at the (non-existent) mercy of the cult.

  139. Darn. Missed the raven-haired beauty.

  140. RED! I mean RED!

  141. I refuse to be your enemy, DFB. ❤

  142. I am practicing the spin like the CofM uses, taking things out of context.
    I do think “parishioners” should be held accountable for cutting off communication to their families though. This is completely their responsibility, not CofM’s.

  143. I see!

    The Count

  144. Han Solo-
    You’re right, its not new, but the idea of spiritual entities goes back even further than that. For example, in the 17th century, Leibniz arrived at an explanation of reality that includes a source of force called a “monad”. Monads are defined as nonmaterial metaphysical entities that resemble souls. Leibniz thought that they are the source of all activity that accompanied matter.
    If you want to learn more, Wikipedia is no good on this subject. You have to go to history books and other academic materials.

  145. Lord Of The Undead

    30 years among the dead. Thankyou! Psychiatry; they suffer from retarded vampire syndome.


  146. The Brits are notoriously hard to control and often refuse to follow orders, so don’t think for a moment that British Scientologists stepped into line and refused to watch the show.

    As I mentioned above, early feedback from the UK is that Scientologists did watch the show, including staff.

  147. uh…would that “TC” in YSCITCH stand for … TC? ; )

  148. What’s going wrong with the church of scientology?

    From what I’ve seen and personally experienced it is this:

    Every being in this universe is unique, there is only one of you and there is only one of me. Instead of treating people for what they really are, which is unique and irreplaceable beings in this universe, in my opinion, they are seen as just another mark or just another slave.

    To me this is a business mentality and not the correct way of looking at things when one is trying to reverse the effects of being in this universe for billions of years.

  149. Ouch.

    Actually, if I may take an exterior viewpoint- that was a pretty hard hit from the Church. It makes Sweeney look bad. It has more meat than the crap they were putting out for AC360. I am unfortunately left with the impression that Sweeneys methods and intentions were not quite honest- Thats the world he lives in as a tabliod journalist and he had a score to settle.

    It is unfortunate because it clouds the truth. It allows the Church to produce actual PR damage to Sweeney and the others in the show.

    Sorry guys, that my take.

    The actual show itself was not all that bad. I think they missed out on a possibly more interesting angle on the independent movement and data that Mike and Marty could have provided, but I guess they thought this was more interesting.

  150. I had time to watch one segment and ended up watching them all. Thought the feature was compelling.

    Maybe the disappointment lies more in expectations: like being told a movie is the best things ever, sitting through it and thinking, “Hmm, not that great.” Or being told a movie is the worst thing ever, sitting through it and thinking, “Hmm, not that bad, had some good parts.”

    The intrusiveness of the church was manifest in the ubiquitous cameras. The lies and betrayals came through loud and clear. All the attempts to intimidate, the spiked fences, Tommy’s nastiness. As Sweeny asked, “Is this how this church goes about its business?”

    Look at the “missed opportunity” in a different way: a thetan loves a mystery. A good writer does not provide too much information too early in the story. The author wants the reader to continue to turn the page, to be compelled to find out. Maybe this will get some to research further who had not thought to do so before.

    That the material was often a rehash of what we’ve seen before is less important than it serving as a continued message. Certainly we here on this blog have seen it all before. But others have not. And even if they have, a study datum says that number of times over material equals certainty and results. The audience is learning. This program may be the moment of revelation, when the data actually gets through, past the denial and the apathy. This organization needs to be handled.


  151. Out of a total UK population of about 61.8 million (ie. 7.8% of the ENTIRE UK population).

    I wonder does that figure of4.8 million count the Scottish viewers.

  152. Theo Sismanides

    Marty I just watched the pin test with Sweenie (I don’t know how his name is spelled) in Part II. His reaction and how easily you detected his withold said it all. You are the auditor who did that Demonstration on BBC!!!! LRH would be proud of such an auditor. You not just looked but you were so natural. Let me see Miscavige do a pinch test and find one withold in seconds.

  153. I guess that was the revenge for the prompted Sweeney-screamer in 2007.

    Oh, forgot, it must have been Mike”s beingness as an SP (Screamer Prompter)

  154. martyrathbun09

    I probably should have added the fact that I am much too close up and involved to be very objective.

  155. Indeed at some point the public is ready for more. And rebroadcasts are alsoo broadcasts reaching the public. “Here’s the YT links to ABC’s ‘4 Corners’ “down under” broadcast that was last night rebroadcast by the CBC’s ‘The Passionate Eye’ series:”

  156. martyrathbun09

    To kool aid drinkers only.

  157. What Micheal said. And: Good show Sir carry on 😉

  158. Why hello neighbour 😉 Great to see you chime in Kat

  159. “This of course flies in the teeth of good investigative journalism.”

    I think that was okay but the reporting end got overtaken by the fighting lawyers.

  160. WH, yes, something wonderful is happening. Fantastic on your reconnections. I got back in comm with my best friend from 26 years ago last week- it was great for both of us. I am sure there will be many other stories like this, attributable in one form or another to this very blog. So, Mr. Rathbun, feel uplifted as you have opened up many doors that may not be directly viewable from the Shack- but trust me, they are there. And I am grateful as well.

  161. OTDT keep believing in the Game 😉 This was onley one chess move of many.

  162. Haydn, thanks for briefing us on this letter from your friend. I really like where he is coming from. Would he be interested in doing the piece?

  163. Hello Wayne. I just watched the videos you supplied a link to and it is as if I were hearing about the policies in effect at the C of S. It is incredible the similarities between North Korea and Scientology. When I was in, even the food situation was similar to N Korea as we only had beans and rice. Thank you for the enlightenment through these videos.

  164. Norm are you in Canada by any chance?

  165. You can take a sap out of the Sea Org……but can you take the “Sea Org” out of the sap?

    There WILL be no reinvention of the SO. It’s record is soiled beyond belief by its blind embracing of a dull-witted, “doesn’t even like sex” childless runt such as corn-COB…………for DECADES!

    For any SO vets (or any kind of “vet”) dreaming of the day the Sea Org “comes back”, don’t hold your breath. The Sea Org is deader than disco.

    The Sea Org deserves a cheap burial in an unmarked grave for its role in annihilating the Mission Network.

  166. DFB~The key being “that you were aware of” but did you know there were cameras behind mirrored glass? That is creepy on the level of mirrors in a dressing/fitting room having a camera behind it. That’s creepy like you hear about secret sex videos or locker room peep holes creepy.
    That’s more thought-stopping creepiness for sure!
    And yep, Tommy Davis called Sweeney creepy…takes one to know one, huh?!

  167. Great.

    But please understand I meant groups, not individuals.

    The Church has put itself into a position where is open to attack by having been attacked from within IMO. Thats why the secondary infection analogy.

    I am not part of the Church vs church enemies game you are playing, so I doubt you will have that choice to make.

  168. The more glamour, the more disgust

    David, just a thought flash in reading your comment: Maybe the Co$ is what it is because LRH saw the (at this time) inattainability of your ideal scene and went an other direction – better this Co$ than no fast development, for some time. Which is over IMO.
    I like your ideal scene. I still hold it for not makeable, except in small groups which more or less don’t care of public opinions, mass media, morphic field influences, controlled social operation and so on – but without this all, it’s not in BBC … at best, the time might be ripe to do some of it on the net, but also there not aiming at the big broad effect. It’s done anyway, everywhere where a piece of good tech (of whatever provenience) is given with high ARC from one to another, or where stuck ideas are listened to and thusly released or eradicated – how ever this cycle is named and its magic explained.
    However it was good to meet your ideas. Once again what it’s really all about!

  169. I wouldn’t have statyed it that bluntly but yes when it landed it “took over” like it was drilled to do.

  170. Yes, Marty — what Theo said! That’s a 5,000,000 stat! When’s the last time DM or the cult got a REAL 5,000,000 stat of anything?!?

    Oh, wait … each year since 2005 (the year after you left the cult) an average of 5,000,000 vehicles were driven by real people past Ideal Morgues every year, so that’s 14.625789 brazillion contacts with Scientology — all because YOU left the cult.

    Come on … I see you smiling … come on!

    Just Me

  171. This is nearly 10x the size of Woodstock, just in the BBC broadcasting area alone!
    “Last night’s programme attracted an average of 4.819 million viewers and a 20.3% audience share, making it the most popular show in the 9pm hour.”

    Answer people’s questions. Maintain friendly relations with the environment. Looks to me like people like and respect Truth.

    It’s only going to get bigger from here….

  172. Yes, you could see a glimmer in Sweeney’s eye that “maybe there is something to all this”. It was quite apparent that there is indeed something that is “restimulation”. It is REAL, not a fantasy of LRH’s or Scientologists. The purpose of this board….the obvious real purpose….is clearly destimulation. Of course, that means RUNNING OUT the engram which is obviously underway. Sometimes I see posts from people who are part of the engram or stuck in it. The original purpose of the Sea Org was to run out the Fourth Dynamic engram of this planet – the Third Dynamic engram obviously as well. It was obvious to some of us some thirty years ago that the 3D engram was bigger than the 4th. Bad stuff obviously needs to be brought up to be cleared out, but it is great to see and encourage postings, comments and actions which actually DESTIMULATE. Also, keep in mind that all the understandable emotions of hate that accrue to DM, TC, etc. only feed their demons which live off that stuff. If you want to talk about UNFLAT OT Levels, look at them!!!! Freedom from overwhelm? It is impossible to be free from overwhelm if you are overwhelming others. They do, however, portray an excellent DRAMATIZATION of CAUSE OVER LIFE. My suggestion is that everyone who reads this send flow of love towards DM, TC, etc. and their demons. Wouldn’t it be something if someone had the wherewithal to convince them they could accept an amnesty with no repurcussions provided they come clean, etc?

  173. Well done you play a mean game of chess.

  174. “only one was negative (a current Birmingham org staff member complaining they now have to handle the flap with their parents).”

    The more flaps are flapping the better it gets.

  175. They cleverly didn’t address any of the allegations so, as far as I’m concerned it’s useless. However, you gotta admit they had some dirt on Sweeney in their video. Even if it’s not true I think it succedes in atleast creating the question in the viewers mind that Sweeny might be a biased tabloid reporter.
    I don’t think there is much of an audience for the “Freedom” response, but I have to say from a production standpoint I think they handled some of the outpoints in their AC360 videos and came back with a harder hit.

    I’m not criticizing you, Mike or the independents, only Sweeney- that his methods may have left him open to PR attack from the Church.

  176. Right on /b/rother. Maybe we just are used to it,seeing all that PI activity I mean. Let’s Imagine the Catholic Church doing that, outrage !. Well I just heared a group of dutch abuse-survivors are going after the pope legally.

  177. Theo, DM probably would not find a single (actual) overt or withhold on anyone – very much a case of not being able to find a WH on Nikita Krustschoff (LRH joke in a lecture).

    Besides the fact that an E-Meter doesn’t look like DM’s custom made Golden Rods described on this blog, this blog is astonishingly void of any comments on DM’s having been an auditor, good or bad, to anyone.

    He’s probably still drilling on the Gross Alteration of Technology to get a pass on the first command any Scientologist learns on a Comm Course: START (he keeps saying FARTS) and when asked for a definition of that command he insists it means STrategic Anti-Religious Tactics

    If he actually did audit, oops .. he wouldn’t … I mean, sec check anybody it probably required a double-padded, super-sound insulated cell, ahm .. room and the questions, … sorry, I’m being unspecific, I mean … quallegations would be taken straight out of his life in real-time, off the cuff so to speak, and go something like this:

    When did you …. (profanity)?
    When did you …. (horrendous crime)?

    The poor soul welded to DM’s Golden Rods (to avoid body and mental motion) just never has a chance to answer as the qualligations gush from his mouth, leaving a foul stench in the room making the PC unconscious. When the battered PC regains consciousness he just can’t ‘t find anything resembling those quallegations in his/her life, believing that nobody would possibly do something like THAT!

    Finally that PC is dragged to the Examiner who is however unable to detect ANY reaction whatsoever (neither meter nor needle). That’s when DM’s auditor beingness shines. He picks up the meter, swings it 3 (three) times left and right and says:

    Now THAT’s an F/M (Floating Meter)!

    At this point he awards himself the permanent Class XXXXX GAT (pronounced “quack”) Golden Rod Auditor certificate.

  178. There is one aspect of this documentary that is indisputable, the one string that any parishioner involved with the church needs to pull. Any of the arguments put forward by John Sweeney or counter-arguments by the church can be rationalized away depending on which side you are on. But what cannot be washed away is how much better Mike looks today than he did three years ago. How the hell is that possible? People, once they reach a certain age are supposed to begin falling apart. How could Mike, years later, seem to be falling together? Makes no sense. THAT is something for the on-lines Scientologists reading this blog to grapple with. Tug on that one string, people, and it will lead you to some interesting discoveries.

  179. Theo Sismanides

    This goes to Samuel, but I don’t know if it’s going to end up in the right place as I am posting it from my iPhone:

    Samuel, Samuel well said. How wise you have become my friend!!!

  180. What Marty and Mike did there was something the Church should have done, but for some reason cannot- be open and honest about Scientology.
    That little bit of the show probably got a lot of people interested in Scientology. They wont go to the Church, but I’m sure some Scientologists were created there because they saw a little glimpse of the real Scientology in Marty’s TR’s and the meter demonstration .

  181. He used and uses profanity as a solid object to hit with. He likes to knock one out of PT with it and then drill in. Part of the impact is the loss of desired ARC.

  182. I think this was a very good documentary. First of all in german tv documentaries are far more downtone. This one was quite uptone. And even if documentary, first goal of anything that is broadcasted is “entertainment”. The purpose is not to replace police investigation or justice actions with tv shows. I think the confront level was low enough that visitors did not change channel.
    Thus a very good product.

  183. Well, the SO is dead for now, but I wouldn’t expect it to stay dead. WE COME BACK.

  184. Marty, Mike, and all the most beautiful women, all yee wonderful whistle blowers,
    I had a field day with the program – it’s a major blow to the cult; don’t ever underestimate the effect of Sweeney’s show to the public – none of them is so into the subject like you – I fully second Michael’s (OnceUponaTime) remarks.

    Thank you!!!

  185. OT VIII, compassion is not your strongest point. Don’t throw the babies (SO vets) with the bath water, please!

    To M&M, the worst thing to do is nothing, and you get all my admiration for taking responsibility for the whole stuff. I think you really know that you are, and more than ever wearing your respective hats, against all odds. Yes, Sirs!

  186. And

    You are free Mr Rindier – free to think , free to go wherever you want, free to talk to anybody, free to watch the news event to talk to journalists , free to sleep in a bead, free to eat good meals, free to love anybody you mant and free of camera to record you!

    Byt HE the great Dear Leader is not free – he has to hide in one of his golden cage with gorillas to protect him, and haunted by his crimes and obsessly fear about that he cannot control anymore what people can reveal about HIM. The price he is paying – fear and slavery- for the hell he created in his mind and made it come to reality!

    And the worst – his suntanning is artificial – from spendind 30 minutes alone in a ”sun cage” but your is the sun tanning of playing outside, spending free time to enjoy with cherish ones! It comes with a smile and good feeling within the heart!
    Congratulations to all of you who exposed , I understant your deception about some other secrets but it will come – soon or later! If you cannot talk for a national broadcast station – you can on you own behalf!

    Thank you!
    It for sure help people in doubts to make their mind and stay free of slavery!

  187. Kat, Thanks for posting. With regard to the need for a longer series, couldn’t agree more. There was a pretty decent in-depth look done by a non-Scientologist/journalist called “The Beginner’s Guide to L. Ron Hubbard” posted here as an article by Marty some month’s ago. I’m not sure how to embed the video, but here is the link to the first segment on youtube:

  188. No offense MostlyLurker, but I stayed in because of Anonymous. For the most part, their inability or unwillingness to differentiate between the subject and the organization, allowed the CoM to use that to paint “Anonymous” as ignorant and/or bigotted.

    It took folks who DID appreciate the subject (as opposed to the organization) to convince me to pay attention to what they had to say. I’m guessing that that was true of many others who have left as well.

    I have no problem with protests and Anonymous exposing the abuses. But when they trash(ed) the subject at the same time, then most Scientologists (out or in) recognize the signs of intolerance — if not ignorance.

  189. … in TC’s Hangar? lol

  190. I agree with Marty … it might have an impact on kool-aid drinkers. At the the same time, the way they trash both Marty and Mike … a leading RTC exec and Church spokesman, respectively, for many many years … that might have gotten me to start looking at Marty and Mike’s side of the story.

  191. Anyone disappointed that the broadcast didn’t hang the midget by his thumbs, should take into account that programs like Panorama live by one cardinal rule: attract viewers or die. Lots of people will tune in to see an expose on Scientology. On Miscavige, not so much. You and I might be on the edge of our seats to hear of his atrocities (most of which we already know about) but the fact is, the rest of the world doesn’t give a rat’s fart about this guy.

    That could change though, and soon. Personally I would like “miscavige” to become a household word. Maybe even a verb.

    I think the broadcast was everything we had a right to expect, and well done to Mike, Marty, Amy, Mark and Claire Headley and Mariska for pushing it to that stage. Thanks, guys.

  192. “Although it was not the purpose of the demonstration, one could see that Sweeney was perfect bait for inducement into the actual procedures of the technical aspects of Scientology.”

    Your use of “perfect bait” says a lot. Reminds me of when I was the PCS of my org before joining the Sea Org and calling new public “Raw Meat.”

    Anyway, I thought the program was absolutely brilliant on so many levels. At first I thought it could be harder-hitting, but then realized that to someone watching this program who knew nothing about Scientology, will now walk away knowing a lot more than they did about the Church and what happens to dissenters or people who disagree – or even people who want to tell their side of the story. That person watching, unless completely delusional, will never set foot in a CoS ever.

    So what that the Xenu/OT III material was covered? It’s a big and major part of Scientology. I think people have the right to know what’s being sold. You may not think so, but I do.

    From RJ 67 LRH says:

    “The material involved in this sector is so vicious that it is carefully arranged to kill anyone if he discovers the exact truth of it.

    “So in January and February of this year, I became very ill, almost lost this body, and somehow or another brought it off and obtained the material, and was able to live through it. I am very sure that I was the first one that ever did live through any attempt to attain that material. This material
    I’m talking about, of course, is very upper level material and you will forgive me if I don’t describe it to you in very broad detail because it’s very likely to make you sick, too.

    “Now my task for the remainder of the year, up until now – which is to say the ensuing six months – was to find some way to safely bring through individuals. It was not enough for I myself to have lived through it. Other people would have to do so as well when they reached Clear and tried to move up from that point above.

    “And about five or six weeks ago, I finally was able to make a breakthrough which brought people through the zone safely. It is relatively easy to do now, provided one is an extremely well-trained auditor, and the band of fire can be walked through, bringing one out the other side unscathed, providing he applies the exact technology. No one is in danger of colliding with this at lower levels, since it concerns the formation of the society itself in which we live. A person is Clear on the first dynamic. It is necessary, to become OT, to became cleared on all dynamics, including that of society and that of the physical universe. So I have also made this breakthrough,
    and I don’t mind telling you, it took some doing. In all the eighteen years, this has been the toughest one that I have faced. And I faced it so that it would not be tough for you to face when you came to it.”

    You may think that the material is so out-reality for people who have not moved up to being at that level to comprehend it, or wrap their wits around it, or will get sick from being exposed to it. To those who believe that, I say you are completely underestimating and miscalculating the intelligence of common, everyday human beings. People also have the right to know what they’re buying, especially with a religious belief or subject with claims of this scope and magnitude, and thus form their own opinions and make their decisions based on that knowledge.

    I thought the pinch test was a great idea, however it’s also interesting that a new definition for what the E-Meter does was introduced by Marty- being a “truth detector.” Never heard that definition before. From what I know, all the meter really does as a device is measure resistance to the flow of current going through the body. Weather that is mental mass moving in or away, or a “body read,” all it is is a reaction to what’s happening to the flow of current. That’s it. Has nothing to do with detecting lies, or the opposite for that matter – thus making the meter itself a device of “evaluation for the pc.”

    Mike, Marty, Amy, Marc, Claire and Mareka, you all did a brilliant job to expose this dangerous Cult. It leaves this series open for further episodes IMO. You’ve got a very wide audience.

    And to Mike and Marty, I agree with others who have mentioned that just because the BBC didn’t cover a lot of the secrets you wanted exposed, you can still expose them. This blog is a great place to start. You have an audience.

    Major thumbs up!!!

  193. You are cute just the way you are 🙂

  194. Marty, if I may, you are also too hard on yourself when what you’ve worked towards doesn’t come off “perfectly” …

    It has taken me YEARS to not have that knee-jerk response when I feel as if I’ve “failed” — I’m sorta, kinda still waiting for the ethics officer to come grab me by the nape. And I’ve been gone since ’93.

    You’ve only been gone since ’04 and endured a much much harsher sea org than I did.

    It’s that “flinch” some of us may still feel. A flinch that only those subjected to serious trauma feel — and it seems to take a long time to completely dissipate.

    I find the more I reconnect (oh — by the way, it’s been several more than just these 2 but they were a COMPLETE surprise as they are not involved with the independent movement or critics at all) the more I am able to communicate my story and collaborate with others, the more LIGHT seems to shine.

    Marty, your kindness and growth were obvious. Your St. Pete Times interview was terrific but in this interview your humor and care were obvious. You also seemed, to me, happy!!!


  195. This is one more plus in exposing that the Church has been hi-jacked.

  196. The Beginners Guide to L. Ron Hubbard is awesome.

  197. Yes Terril agree on that .;) Too bad The Netherlands is a small non native english party because here you can fling it all on TV but to be honest it will still not be longer than an hour. (Unless perhaps Mark bunkers coming fiull lenght documentary).

    ” (imagine an entire firm full of Ken Moxons…*shudder*)”
    You should watch the movie the firm 😉

  198. I just finished watch the show and found it to be quite riveting. Another nail in DM’s coffin. My thanks to the cast and crew.


  199. No, I smashed up on the shores of the UK this lifetime although I have been to Canada when I was younger. I like nice large spaces. Been to Niagara Falls but was too drunk after passing a wine distillery to appreciate it.


  200. It’s my experience that being part of the Church of Scientology keeps one in chronic restimulation and enturbulation. Restimulation of what I’m not sure at this point. The more you try to be a group member, the more you cave in. If you manage to keep at it you become a zombie or go into some other valence. When I decided I was done and disconnected I felt like I had been in a coma for ten years.

    Just some thoughts.

  201. Agreed – this was absolutely THE most telling part of the whole show. The contrast speaks VOLUMES. While 99.9% of what I covered in my interviews was not used, I do think it was absolutely clear that the Scientology organization itself is corrupt and something to avoid.

  202. Marty, Mike, Amy, Marc, Claire, Mareka and Christie.

    My hat’s of to you CD

  203. Good point

  204. Hope you do’nt mind me asking CD but what landed and took over? Another race? Crocs, Lizards?


  205. I watched the whole show a second time. I realized that throughout my years in and around Scientology, the Church has always been PARANOÏD of reporters and the press. Plain PARANOÏD. Treats them like enemies.

    In 1991 I was working back & forth at 2 locations – HGB and PAC Base. Both locations had News trucks with antennas on the roof driving around and around. Channel 2 Action News, etc. Sometimes they had helicopters hovering around. Security was all over the place to fend them off.

    It would have been sooo much easier for the “officials” to INVITE THEM IN and SHOW THEM that Scientology is OK. Do a pinch test LIVE on camera. Ask a couple of questions from Self-Analysis and get them to SEE the needle reactions. A bit of 2-way-comm to Floating Needle. Word Clearing, Study Tech, etc. etc. etc.

    In other words – DEMYSTIFY the subject instead of perpetuating the controversy.

    Marty, Mike, Amy, et all, you did a GREAT job in that episode. A while ago, you started with the St. Pete Times videos (small scale, 3rd Dynamic) then CNN Anderson Cooper 360 and now the BBC Panorama which reaches WORLDWIDE on the 4th dynamic all over the GLOBE ! (though on limited satellite channels) It can only move ↑ UP ↑ from there!

    P.S. (hint) ↓
    The US government pays A LOT OF ATTENTION to ALJAZEERA TV

  206. YES!!!! “A picture is worth a thousand words.”
    Mike, I am so happy for you that you are back among the living. I wish this for all those who, for now, still sleep. And to you Mike, Marty, and all others who contributed to the BBC show, I believe you have placed another stepping stone along the way.

  207. PS: I can’t help but wonder how Heber is looking these days. 😦

  208. This was a great comment, David.

    I did want to mention one thing: this Panorama episode may be the very first time in history that a reporter, on film and spontaneously, had an e-meter pinch test demonstrated to him — and then included in the broadcast.

    4.8 million viewers saw it. Pretty cool.

  209. Marty,
    Very well done on the pinch test. i never have seen such a professional pinch test (I’ve seen many) and yout got the guy into session in no amount of time. this is Scientology ! looking at you being in comm. with him, gives one the feeling that it’s not a problem to handle individuals.
    So the guy was researching Scientology and nobody was able to give him a demo of an E-Meter ?

  210. That’s a good point Carol. I think one big question in many peoples’ minds is: why would a person, or a celebrity, continue to be part of this?

    This show gave enough of a separation between the tech and the organization, to help answer that. And mentioning the “independent” and “reformation” movement several times, also helped.

  211. Impartial English Girl

    Terril is absolutely right. Notable cases of “Libel Tourism” generally include some Arabian gentlemen who may or may not be connected to arms-dealing and/or global terrorism. A book was published by (I believe) a US publishing house making such allegations (not entirely without evidence) was sued by UK lawyers – the plaintiffs’ representatives having travelled to the UK for the purposes. It’s a murky world. I’ve just watched the documentary. Thought it was an excellent piece of work, despite any edits.

  212. I emailed an old college buddy of mine the BBC video links and asked him for comments after viewing. This person left COS in the late 80’s after going clear. He is a very successful businessman in his mid 60’s.

    “It seems to sum up what I discovered while I was in Scientology. The principles founded by LRH were valid but the Org. distorted the model for power and profit”.

  213. Leland Contrad Powers

    BBC documentary was a wash to be sure. Only because I think Sweeney didn’t wanna hear the Churchies bitch and moan about him being biased once more – good on him, he sacrificed a great story for the ability to look respectable and not like a tabloid freak.

    I am curious though Mark/Mike – what secrets weren’t revealed? Can you tell us now then since Sweeney forsook his chance?

  214. That is very encouraging. It shows that there is indeed an interest in the cloud of controversy that envelopes the CofS. Maybe another producer will pick up on it, and do a real knock down job of it.

  215. Impartial English Girl

    I thought the documentary was very interesting and very brave. A fine piece of work.

    One just has to look at the playful innocence of the little Headley tots, to realise how far the cult of MassCabbage has gone awry. The new ‘church’ has become exclusively CoB Scientology, with no remaining traces of humanity.

  216. Well, it was a good start. Well done, by all.
    Marty, are you going to publish a book? I’d read it . . .
    Tell the on-the-cutting-room-floor ‘secrets’ – and ‘moar’ – in a book.
    OH YEAH 🙂

  217. Marty,

    This may not be the piece you thought it was going to be but I think it is a very hard hitting well done expose’. None of the DM beatings and other psychopathic behavior- too bad there- but a dramatic piece none the less.

    OSA obviously impressed upon the BBC not to mention DM.

    None the less, the piece left me with a sense that the CoS is a cult, that lies, spies, intimidates, enforces abortions and destroys families inside and outside the church. This is a very bad P/R piece for the church.

    Unfortunately it requires the listener to evaluate the data to connect the dots to DM as the head. I beleive this is unlikely in the general public.

    In Marketing and P/R one is putting forward an idea an impression. The data are generally lost. The impression here is decidedly negative, offensively so. That is what will be remembered next week, not the data. The next time DM is in the news, the impression from this piece will snap terminals to DM. It is a forgone conclusion. It is the nature of the bank.

    Any thinking Scientologists-non kool aide drinkers- knows much of this data is true from their own experiences.

    Defections always start from personally questioning the goings on and eventually getting ones fill. And for me personally the final item was knowing there was an alternative.

    I beleive this piece aligns very well with the above. Well done to all involved.

    Success isn’t a measure of news media coverage but impact.

  218. oops- that should be watching not watch

  219. DFB,
    Not sure what you’re “ouching” about. Saw those two Freedumb videos on YT and it’s typically the normal Mestology response of Ad Hominem attacks, twisting reality & facts to do so. This is very similar to the “kingpin” & “adultress” labels and lines, spending lots of resources to defend Dear Leader.

    Those two rebuttals videos don’t deny or even take up what Steve insightfully points out the BBC show brings up:
    “1) the Church breaks up families,
    2) the Church is run by liars,
    3) the Church will go to any expense to discredit and harass media and any whistle blowers,
    4) the Church uses covert surveillance,
    5) David Miscavige “one of the greatest spiritual leaders of the 13th century” (or whatever) is a poster child for Profanity-R-Us,
    6) the Church prefers abortions over children,
    7) the Church shamelessly manipulates celebrities into being mouthpieces,
    8) the Church uses Scientology in reverse to trigger critics into fits of hostility that they can video and use against them,
    9) the Church secretly videos everyone who gets auditing from them,
    10) the Church collects and uses blackmail material (just like J. Edgar Hoover) to control people.”

    Freedumb lives in another universe and just attacks character, not facts or reality just as I suspect it’s Chairman of Buildings does being the issue authority, believing that this “riposte” is effective PR. Perhaps kool aid sippers believe this dreck and syrupy 1.1 tone level message.

  220. Many thanks to Marty and Mike and Amy for speaking out, but this video series is a complete Failure and you can blame that on the BBC. What it all comes down to in the end is the Physical Violence. Plain and simple brother, that’s all there is to this whole Independent Scientology Movement. Had there never been any Physical Violence leveled against You or Someone you Admired, how many of you S.O. members would ever have defected? Probably None. Because you were so DEDICATED!!

    But people think in Identities, man, so what is anyone who knows Nothing about Scientology going to think after watching a show like this? They’re going to think that Scientology is a nothing but a money making SCAM and that there is no actual VALIDITY to the body of knowledge itself, and therein lies the rub with me.

    We all know that Scientology WORKS when standardly applied. We have all experienced the tremendous gains in self awareness, and how it improves your abilities in so many ways.

    So if you fail to show that the Body of Knowledge itself is valid, but that the guy who is in control of the Organization is manifesting Suppressive Characteristics himself, then you have failed in your effort to make any meaningful change for the betterment of this planet.

    Sorry, but that’s the truth of it.

  221. Wayne~YOU certainly make ME smarter! Thank you.

  222. Marty, I agree with Martin and Steve.

    The programme may not have turned out exactly how you may have wanted (they rarely do), but the creepy and dishonest behaviour of the CoS was laid bare for all to see. I thought that you and Mike put your case across very well and let people know that there IS a reformation movement within Scientology (no, I haven’t forgotten about the FreeZone, it’s just that they haven’t exactly commanded wide publicity up to now). Hopefully many current ‘churchies’ will see this and start to wonder, “Maybe I SHOULD re-examine where I am going in the CoS …?”

    The Beeb will have been very aware that the CoS has deep pockets and will ruthlessly pursue opponents in the courts if given the slightest chance. They probably decided not to show anything that couldn’t be proven 100%.

    For me, the most telling part, as it usually is, was the personal testimony of those who had been abused, especially these wonderfully brave women, Amy, Claire and Mareka. Only the most callous and stony-hearted could fail to be moved by hearing Mareka tell of the moment that her fiancé left her and see the pain in her tears. I’m definitely a ‘stiff upper lip’ sort of chap, but I’m not ashamed to say that my eyes misted over then.

    This programme will be used as a reference for years to come and there is nothing that Miscavige and his legions of DMbots can do about it. Their demise is one step closer.


  223. If this played in the U.S. it would have to be 1.5 hours, at least, due to the commercials, so it would have been cut even shorter here…

  224. I’m just saying, they didnt seem to have to twist the truth as much as they did with CNN. Sweeney provided them with more material to work with.
    I understand your points. I was just trying to look at it from an exterior viewpoint.
    It’s easy to let emotions and the group think cloud what you see. I dont want to do that again. I did it in the church.
    The actual BBC piece was not too bad. The bit with Mike and Marty talking with Sweeney and with the e-meter was fantastic.

  225. I’m gonna pretend I didn’t maybe figure out that acronym…conceptual thinking is a bitch!
    The vile disgusting degraded talk of my new OT8 mission holder was a huge straw on this camel’s back. His OT7 wife sitting there saying nothing while he spoke that way, another one.

  226. Thought Provoking

    I shudder at the thought that I might have at one time bought this type of stuff. But this specific presentation had an obvious slant.

    Once one has looked, it validates the incideous lies the church will adopt to counter the whistleblowers. Having information on many of these reportings from the actual source, I am certain that the church manufactures at will. I can’t believe they threw in Marty’s adventure in N.O. after he had already gone public on it, of course theirs was sensationally twisted.

    Although Sweeney does take a hit, most of it is done in an outlandish way. If a person saw Panorama and then Freedom, I think they would see that Panorama is more fact based.

  227. Thought Provoking

    Mareka did a fantastic job. She was very real indeed. Glad to hear that she impinged so many so quickly. Ten years ago, most Scientologists would not have even looked at something like Panorama.

  228. Back in 1971, my first auditor, a Class VIII, referred to the E-meter as a “truth detector” when he was asked by another student if the meter was like a lie detector.

  229. Thought Provoking

    I agree with Sam!

    One thing that was apparent is that knowing the tech of something can make your life better and you don’t have to be the adverse effect of it. After simple two way comm with Mike and Marty about getting his buttons pushed, Sweeney was able to confront the camera tails from the church. He came quite uptone on the subject…there they are again. Whereas the earlier 2007 interview shows him definitely nervous.

    And, I loved all the old LRH and Scientology clips! Brought back great memories.

    If you just look at the tone levels, church representatives and celebs all came off low toned, Independents high. Everyone looked great, Especially Mike!

    If more people reach to the net, they will find the pieces that were left on the cutting room floor. I think this show will make more people look, outside the church.

  230. Mike, great job you and Marty did. You do need to step back and realize that although it didnt have the blood and crimes many wanted to see, it DID effectively communicate the curent state of affairs regarding scientology.
    It did effectiviely communicate the worth of the subject matter and the absolute transformation that a person can undergo(YOU) when one leaves the suppresivness of the organization but maintains his viewpoint and integrity. It visually showed millions what the E- Meter does and how the organization is destructive to families and critics. And it was all done on a gradient the public could absorb and accept. In was in itself a VFP for introducing people to the subject while warning them of the organizational dangers. No malice, no hate. Just some folks who still care about the subject and their fellow human beings. Nice job.

  231. Sorry, didn’t mean to leave out Jason or Larry Anderson. Thanks, guys. And come to think of it, Kirsty Alley, Ann Archer and a few others helped too, in their own way.

  232. Just Me,

    I have to second this! Thinking about the show, the word that comes to mind is “Confrontable!” Good solid conservative journalism that nonetheless exposes the CoS organization as sleazy, paranoid, hostile, obscene, fascistic, duplicitous, secretive, unprincipled, and dangerous from the top down. Just the violation of the sanctity of the confessionals is enough to damn them.

    It also showed the obvious positive humanity of the “defectors”(Independents) in a big way, and put in a big plug for the actual subject of Scientology through the pinch test segment.

    Overall, an A- at least. To have bludgeoned the audience with a lurid expose of Miscavge would likely have been over the top and lost the credibility of some of the audience. The exposure of the text messages and Miscavige’s obscenity was plenty! And the screaming ambush of Mike….!

    I think the show is stronger than might seem at first glance.

  233. Bryon, we come back as individuals. Nothing stays the same in this universe. The main thing is we come back. We are back. We never left. Whatever shoe fits. An individuals who at any point embraces the goal of saving every soul in the universe or getting ethics in on the universe is usually someone who can be counted on to come back. We don’t need uniforms or braid or musters. Its the intention that counts. Your surrounded by them.

  234. I realize this data is in the show and on the internet, but I really don’t think it should here on this blog.

  235. Marty, I just had time to watch the videos… You rock!! So A to B… so much truth and sanity…
    What a good job! Mike, Amy Mareka… well done to expose truth!


  236. 5 million viewers watched the Panorama show, “The Secrets of Scientology”.
    Anderson Cooper’s ACC/360 show reaches under 350,000
    Mike, Marty, Amy, Marc, Claire, Mareka and Christie take a big win.
    For the story in the Guardian click on this link:

  237. martyrathbun09

    When your objective is an F/N, you are damn right it is a truth meter.

  238. Thanks Cat Daddy.
    I may shave. I havent decided yet. It’s a big commitment.

  239. Oh, I’m so completely and totally invalidated! I guess I’d better go slit my wrists, drink poison or blow my brains out – probably all three! NOT!!!

    Sorry bud, but we already have seen the OSA Internet handling programs with specific targets to spread a message of hopelessness, futility and failure to drive us all down tone.

    Michael A. Hobson

  240. OUT OF TOUCH!!

    This time I really noticed it. Tommy Davis escorting John Sweeney in CC or somewhere WITH HIS ARMS CROSSED.

    Years ago, public speakers learned about body language.

    Crossed arms — defensive demeanor. Not open. Not honest.

    Come on. Just this TINY bit of drilling would have made TD a somewhat more likable character. But, with those arms crossed — wow — he looks like someone who just came in from under some rock.

    NO ONE crosses their arms in an interview. Find one other person.


  241. “P.S. (hint) ↓
    The US government pays A LOT OF ATTENTION to ALJAZEERA TV”

    Very funny but you may be on to something else too.
    I bet the ALJazeera viewing public would LOVE to hear there is another MECCA in Clearwater Florida. That little gem of PR brilliance will endear THAT viewership to the CoS. Oh ya.

    And the tone level will be a match as well. One 13th century culture exposing another is a match made in…er heaven?
    If they put it on PPV I’d watch.

  242. Thanks Jack. Very nice!
    We can add to that another few thousand more viewers who will see it via YouTube, e-mail forwarding, etc. The internet spreads rapidly.

    His Felony, David Miscavidge loves videos, right?

  243. « Personally I would like “miscavige” to become a household word. Maybe even a verb. » 🙂

    – His Felony has miscavidged the Tech.
    – We’ve been miscavidged by the IA$ for so long.
    Conceptual understanding reached.

  244. Fellow Traveller

    I am honored to be able to participate, if only from a spectator position on this Blog. All y’all be just mahvelous — easy to keep one’s “What is Greatness” in.

    I offer this as a bit of humor, aesthetics and validation perhaps:

    Bruce Pratt

  245. I call that Verbal Data.

  246. When I did the E-Meter Course, it said nothing about detecting “truth.” Truth lies in the mind of the being, not the device.

  247. With 5 million British viewers plus whatever numbers from internatinal views on satelite plus the rapid spread of the video on the Internet this can only be seen as a win. Granted it probably could have been more damning of the little fu*%er but I think with the material available you could do a 10
    part series and not cover it all.

    More important from my perspective is credibility. How Marty, Mike and the others came off in this program is how much more credible and SANE they were. Add in the visuals of an obviously beautiful, happy family unit such as the Headleys, the heart breaking story of Mareka’s lost love ( damn where are those tissues), Jason’s everyman straight up forthrightness and Amy’s branded Scarlett letter A ( man this church is obsessed with sex or what), one can only look at them and wonder what is wrong with this. When you through in the obvious transformation of Mike one can’t help and wonder what is wrong here. Compare this to the visual of the CoS, lots of fancy schmanzxy real Estate, overproduce production videos making it look like they are selling a religion rather than being one, plus the screaming attack on Mike and the PIs on Sweeney’s tail the whole issue of credibility is glaringly obvious. This is no religion but a CULT!

    I am not a scientologist but from where I sit as an observer and public the Indies came off very well but I don’t think the BBC was going to do a promotional piece for the Indies. There was no way the BBC and Sweeney were not going to take advantage of this opportunity to vindicate themselves after the tearing they receive in 2007. I doubt this time the CoS little response video will be as effective. I watched it and I found it just made it worse. The camera shots from various securitycameras made it even more scary. How much security does a Church need anyway? I doubt banks have this much security.They have every perceivable angle covered. This is not security it’s Big Brother watching outside and inside the buildings.

    When a dam breaks it doesn’t fail all at once. First it takes is a small crack or fault. Then pressure builds up in those areas and eventually more cracks developed, and then more until it eventually lets go. Lil’ Davie is the kid with his finger plugging a few holes here and there. Eventually he will run out of fingers and the cracks becomes to numreous to plug and the dam gives way to a veritable flood. Once that dam goes those down stream better get moving because there will be no controlling it.

  248. C’mon man! (As in Monday Night Football highlights). These are PR answers and “acceptable truthiness.” If a device is able to “detect truth” then what’s that other stuff in between that it’s detecting, i.e. Dirty Needles…? I guess “truth detecting” is a sunnier way of saying it…

  249. WF,
    Thanks for the videos, hadn’t seen them. It is remarkable how the term Dear Leader fits the leader of Mestology – more than I thought. Especially the bit about big expensive and empty buildings and more similarities such as brainwashing and the “hole”, thought police, one could go on and write a book about.

    Methinks it was Mike who came up with the name and it sure fits.

  250. I just want the beatings to stop!

    Very much agreed. My dad went on about how much younger and happier and freer you look, Mike.

    It’s so good to be OUT of the CULT and finally practicing some real Scientology! It makes you younger, freer and happier.


  251. Well done Marty, Mike, Amy, Marc, Claire, Mareka, Christie, Jason and Larry! But what is this “this is not what we expected” all about? The program was GREAT and will keep millions from ever go near an org. A big step towards the accomplishment of Target no 1: Force Miscavige to resign.

  252. One the of the best PR campaigns that can be run is take a mug shot of Mike today, get a shot of what he looked like from 2007 and send it out to the masses. Just as you said, pull the string. personal observation is powerful and he is truly glowing now, even despite having lots his family and what he has known for over 30+ years. So anyone with a brain can say, wow a guy loses his family, and yet he still looks radiant, there must have been some heavy suppression going on for him to even look better today despite what he has had to give up!

  253. Six mistakes mankind keeps making century after century:
    Believing that personal gain is made by crushing others;
    Worrying about things that cannot be changed or corrected;
    Insisting that a thing is impossible because we cannot accomplish it;
    Refusing to set aside trivial preferences;
    Neglecting development and refinement of the mind;
    Attempting to compel others to believe and live as we do.”
    — Marcus Tullius Cicero

  254. Tony DePhillips

    I liked the show overall.
    When burning out cancer you sometimes burn out healthy tissue. Independent Scientologists can only work within the framework of current society and I think Marty, Mike and Amy and all the other people involved did a great job.
    If it was DM’s true purpose to expand Scientology would he really be doing all this? Hiring PI’s and telling big lies to society? What would happen if Scientology ever did become mainstream? What if there was a President that was a Scientologist and lots of Senators too. Then one day the President had a disagreement and wanted to resign from the church? Would all the senators have to cut comm with the President? The disconnection policy is insane!!! There is no other way to look at it. If kool aid drinkers think that it is ok then they are aiding and abetting this lunatic cult.
    My hat is off to all of you that had the guts to expose the truth!!

  255. Hey, V80657, do me a favor and don’t post your pathetic whining as a reply to my posts. I don’t want your cooties.

  256. …”twist the truth”… ????

    Their account as shown on the Freedumb video of the Magnificent 7 ambushing Mike at Christie’s doctor’s office, all recorded by BBC is a bit more than a “twist”.

  257. Heather,

    What is not being reported yet is the number of viewers on the internet.
    TV ratings systems are almost pointless now as the global viewing audience is often hundreds of times the numbers reported by the likes of Neilson and company. The Panorama show was watched by two people on our home computer yesterday afternoon and easily hundreds of others through this blogsite alone, none of whom are represented in those statistics!

  258. Wonderful, Haydn!

  259. Just a few more random thoughts:

    I forgot to mention Larry Anderson. To those that were indoctrinated during the “Orientation Film” era, seeing you will have a huge impact. Thank you for your stellar contribution.

    The show was “theta”. The editing, photography, and scene setting, first class. Compare and contrast to the products out of Golden Era. And I think it was intentional,y so, and therfore inviting to those that have never been involved.

    Application of Tech: Marty’s E-Meter demo was great, and validating Mr. Sweeny’s awareness of his “naughty thought” showed that he “got” it. I also found it poignant that he ran a bit of a “locational” on Mike, interviewing him at the spot were he made his decision to no longer be other-determined and take back his self-determinism. That is a very strong subtext to this whole thing.

    Compare that to the scenes of the Miscavologists. EVERY single one of them, “celebrities” included, were prime examples of THOUGHT STOPPING TECH in action. And we know what the point where a being tries to stop things demarcates. The divide was as clear as night and day.
    Positioning those scenes with footage of the “incredible MEST” really highlights the facade that DM hides behind. This show is going to resonate for a very long tme, and with ratings like it got, I bet the BBC would love to turn it in to a “reality show”…

    Again, to all concerned, VWD!

  260. JM: Very insightful as usual, thank you.
    The point you bring up is very subtle but is very valid – the contrast in personalities of the nastiness of the ins vs the sincerity & honesty of the outs. I’m sure many viewers got that whether they realized it or not.

  261. I want to add there what must surely have been felt by many others watching that meter demonstration; the beingness manifested by Marty in talking to Sweeny about what the meter had shown (that there was something Sweeny didn’t want to tell him) was the exact right beingness for an auditor. I have not seen this in SUCH A LONG TIME!

    Without any hyperbole I would even use the the term ” angelic” to describe how safe the auditor was at that moment, and so incredibly light. No agenda. No interest in making wrong, and indeed quite careful not to make Sweeny feel his w/h had been missed, that I felt certain Sweeny had to keep himself from just coming out with it! I honestly felt he wanted to tell all at that moment

    Compare that to what is being reported currently about giving of overts, in session (or out), within the church. Doesn’t much resemble this competent and compassionate demonstration, does it?

  262. It all depends on your intent. If your aim is an f/n, with no other intentions or purposes, then a “truth detector” is precisely what it is.

  263. Yeah, that stuff is pretty lame. It’s like whoever is writing it gets so mad they dont realize they arent even making sense anymore.

  264. My main objection to this “product” by Freedom is that it is another application of the dark side, twisting and manipulating truths so that they stick and nothing As-ises. Their audience would be kool aid drinkers and this just adds to their addiction, hypnosis or implant of false data. Not targeting any posters here.

  265. Ok Sinar. I was just trying to look at all sides to see what a possible viewer might think- maybe someone who is still a “kool aid drinker”.

  266. Marty,

    Even though Sweeney comes off as a bit of a Milquetoast in this piece, I still think that it had enough “R” in it to impinge on the general public.

    A more hard-boiled investigative reporter willing to take on the job is really what is needed here.

    But as they say, every little bit helps!

    Well done to Marty, Mike, Amy, Marc, Claire, Mareka, Christie, Jason and Larry and all who are speaking out against human-rights abuses by the C of S. You guys really have guts.


  267. Gotcha Marty. I’m always up for a good debate any day. You’re absolutely right though, it’s all about the intent.

  268. Dear “OT VIII”,

    No you’re not. You don’t even come close. I, publicly, suggest you’re not even a Scientologist. You are a fraud. Something synthetic.

    With this “handle” of yours, ” OT VIII”, you swoop in and you swoop out, all the while attempting to disperse the good folks who contribute here.

    I, for one, will not be fouled (fooled) by your consistently enturbulating comments by way of your off-topic musings.

    Did someone in OSA or one of the subcontractors come up with “you” and your identity? Maybe you’re Sherman or the Demented Midget himself (of course with spell-check on overdrive). Nice try.

    Maybe I’ll start to identify myself as OT XV. Now I’ve got hierarchy. Thus I COMMAND- Go away.

    Go crawl back under your rock. And have a nice day hating someone or something else. Or whatever your point(s) were or was.

    Again, what is your name? OT Toad?

    With sincere disrespect and disregard,

    Tom Gallagher

  269. Village Voice and Tony Ortega, I suggested him to you when you long ago asked me.

    Again, if you want to get the “secrets” out, Tony Ortega, and Village Voice will do better.

  270. You guys all did an amazing job!!! I was very impressed.

    Marty I would let you audit me any day. You handled the emeter demo so smoothly despite the pressure I can only imagine you were under.

    Mike, Amy, Claire, Christie, Mark, Mareka, Marty & any others that I might be forgetting, take a BIG WIN!!! You all came accross very natural & sincere. It takes guts to do what you did & it will have a huge ripple effect for years to come. Thank you! Sending you all a big hug!


  271. martyrathbun09

    Scott, I respectfully disagree. I don’t think they come more hard boiled than him. He did a remarkable job when one consider the millions (literally) one huge corporation put on the one he works for. I hope I didn’t create the impression I was dissing Sweeney. I did not mean to.

  272. Mike R. don’t take this the wrong way but 3 years ago when you were working on the inside, you were a striking resemblance to Al Pacino in some of his SP roles, gaunt, serious and suppressive looking. Now 3 yrs later when you are suppose to be a real SP, you actually look great after having gotten out from under the supressive control of the real SP. It’s amazing what disconnection can do from the true source of suppression. DM is probably frothing at the mouth that you look better than him, his makeup artists can’t cover up those ice-cold eyes. There should be some more before and after pictures of others who got the hell out of the hellhole created by Miscagiage. Anyhow the before and after contrast is a true testimony in itself for those who have some powers of observation.

  273. Maybe I did get a bit carried away. You see, I have been a stalled Clear for over 12 years now, and my attention has been on this stuff but more on the materials of OT1 and 2 because that’s where I’m at. I really just need to get studying and do the levels, since the non-interference zone is not a good place to be for such an extended period.

  274. Its just amazing to me how much better I feel OUT of the Cult!!!

    My world grows everyday and I thank the internet and people who revealed the truth about this crazy cult.

    The freedom you feel and the enthisiasm I wake up with each and everyday is quite a nice feeling. Those in should stop taking calls and stop going to reg events and stop being regged aqnd see what happens.

    The sene of freedom and happiness is over the top at least it is for me. Anyone else feel the same?

  275. This is sort of what I said below. I wouldnt say he blew it. Just that if he had stuck more closely to “precepts of the journalistic code that BBC and it’s governing bodies and culture hold in high esteem” as you put it, the Church wouldnt have anything to attack him on. As it is, that is the basis of the Churches response. The Church is pretty good at running a plack PR campaign against people. It looks dumb and hateful if theres nothing to base it on, as with Anderson Cooper, but if you give them anything to work with, holy shit watch out, they will run with it and come after you.
    Unfortunately it looks like Sweeney gave them some items to work with.

  276. John Sweeney’s Church of Scientology rematch draws almost 5m
    Panorama journalist’s follow-up to his 2007 BBC1 documentary is the most popular show in the 9pm hour.
    Maybe that will lead to a part 2?

  277. I was admiring their product sort of in the same way you might admire Hitlers political or military strategy. You know it’s evil, but theres still some genius to it. Their video production is very slick. Notice how they used a more reserved english voice over guy for the english audience?
    The way it’s edited and put together, it might actually be as good or better than the BBC video which was well made.

    Now if they could only make something a little less evil it would be nice.

    PR-wise, they hit on the same points that Sweeney was criticised for after the 07 show. I think it may be aimed more at his peers and the BBC than the “kool aid drinkers”. They are attacking Sweeney. They are doing COB’s take on “Always attack, never defend..”

  278. I agree. I think John comes across with great unassuming reality but sticking to his guns all the way, as do you, Mike, the ladies and the other Independents.
    Among other elements, Sweeney’s voiceovers made the show. He had to work within the constraints of BBC’s legal advisors, no doubt.

  279. Yes, they even play with the language to mislead.
    On the New orleans thing for example they said Marty is “a known drinker”. Most people would read that as him being an alcoholic, but what they are saying (I assume) is that he is known to have drank on that occasion. It’s intentionally misleading.

  280. Jeez, DFB, you’re looking at this a lot differently than I am.

    I know you haven’t been out of the cult a long time. But this moaning and groaning you’re doing has GOT to stop. Suck it up, man. You’re OUT. Stop thinking like you’re IN.

    You’re free. You’re acting like those little fishies in the African lake, thinking the shadows are fishnets or prison bars. (I forget the exact facts — but you can look it up on Wikipedia or somewhere.)

    Point is … you’re free! Smile. Be happy.

    Just Me

  281. That megalomania comment by Miscaviage did not escape me, “Just me and we are the most powerful force on this earth.” Get the “Just me” had to come out first from of his infected mouth? Cruise is probably butthurt that he didn’t say “just me, cruise and we”!

  282. Excellent clarification. May I suggest that there are many beings here to help handle the planet who have no association at all with Scientology.

  283. LM, good one! ROFLMAO!

  284. V80657: you say: “people think in Identities” perhaps your post is just that & there’s nothing analytic about what you post.

  285. John,

    If you’re trying to teach someone what the “scientific method” is or even “astrophysics”, is it best to first delve into the discovery of “little green martian life found in the arctic tundra” and describe it to an audience completely uneducated on the subject of “science” as the most important aspect of the “scientific method” or “astrophysics”?

    Of course not. Unless your intent is to belittle, overwhelm or confuse the person. And scare them away from ever studying the “scientific method” or “astrophysics”.

    As to OT III being a “major part of Scientology” … I’d say that it has its place of importance, sure (and that’s why LRH described it publicly as he did in RJ67). But the fact is, the Factors and Axioms are much more “major parts of Scientology”, and that even these don’t make much sense unless one first understands the basic books and lectures published in the 50s and 60s, before the full context or relative importance of OT III makes any sense at all.

    If you’re afraid that “hiding a belief in entities” is a fraud and a no-no, I’d just point you to the lectures and books from the early 50s, where LRH openly discusses his views on “injected entities” and other entities in the make-up of a person. “History of Man” comes to mind.

    This whole anti-Scn propaganda campaign to release OT III and try to belittle Scientologists and overwhelm and confuse people is just that — belittlement and propaganda. And whether you agree with any of the data in OT III or not, I think you know enough about Scientology, the subject, to recognize that pretending that “little green martians” are the be-all and end-all of Scientology is pretty disingenuous. In fact, it’s a lie.

  286. Mitsu Too, you wrote: “Compare this to the visual of the CoS, lots of fancy schmanzxy real Estate, overproduce production videos making it look like they are selling a religion rather than being one

    LOL. THAT is a great line. And so true. That is exactly what the CoM does.

  287. Leland Conrad Powers

    I’m starting to think Marty’s “unreleased secrets” are a carrot on a string. You know, like how Super Power and OT-IX and OT-X are “yet to be released”. Yeah, pretty much like that.

  288. Windhourse

    You cannot see Tommy’s straight jacket, but you can be pretty sure he is wearing one! Compliments of DM.


  289. Marty and Mike (and all the rest) –you guys did a great job. My husband and I were really impressed, and we thought all the independents were amazing and so well spoken. I hope you all know how much you are appreciated out here.

  290. Scott Campbell


    I re-read your comments at the beginning and you’re right, Sweeney was not the problem. I mistook his English reserve for a sort of non-committal approach. Wrong Target.

    The fact that content you guys wanted to be included in the piece was left on the Editing Room floor was the real problem.

    One thing my experience as an editor has shown me is that over-editing can sometimes serve to lose the passion, voice and intent of the reporter.

    I’m also sure that as you point out, pressure brought to bear on the BBC by the C of S significantly influenced those editing decisions.

    Thanks for the “Look again”, Marty.


  291. Is *V8* the modern, green & healthy version of Kool Aid now?
    ♫♫ Have a drink on me ♫♫

  292. Alot of people have been griping about the BBC leaving “the secrets on the editing room floor” and the BBC producers not having the courage to tell them in the expose, but from what I’ve read, the UK legal system does not have the same legal protections for free speech & satire that we enjoy in the U.S. Remember the Tom Cruise character in ‘South Park? “I’ll sue you in England.” Seems that alot of Americans have become spoiled with the free speech protections here that the Brits don’t have. I don’t know why Sweeney or the BBC chose to cut out the secrets that Marty gave them, but given UK libel & defamation laws, the Church’s massive litigation and their very litigious history, the BBC, whose programs are financed by the taxpayer, reacted with the usual “deer in the headlights” response to being sued by Scientology attorneys. If the BBC was a private institution with loads of money to defend itself in lawsuits, the outcome may have been different. Am I off-course here, Marty?

  293. This show was good. It felt open hearted and friendly. Which is different than the tenor of AC 360, or the St. Pete Times series — as good as those shows were. I think Sweeney liked every one of you: Mike, Marty, Amy, Mark, Claire, Mareka, Jason, Larry. The power of this show comes from how easy it is for us as viewers to care about all of you.

  294. Hi everyone …I’m back
    Had some serious issues to deal with and I missed you all…
    Lets Kick some ass!!!!

  295. ΘTater/GaryLerner

    A defoliant would probably work better for ya! 🙂

    p.s. I use a potato peeler myself.

  296. Rory. I would like to say “me too.”

  297. Dear Heather G,
    In the USA, PBS (Public Broadcasting Service) is publicly funded by taxpayers and viewer public donations – I am one of those donating viewers, though across the Lake in another country…

    Would you like your USA hard-earned-tax-dollars to be used in litigation against the Cult of Miscavidge, over the content in a TV program?

    It’s hard enough to get USA-ans to help the sick and injured USA-ans get some medical treatment. Wanna throw that PUBLIC money into litigation instead? Well, that’s the thought process going through the minds of the BBC producers.

    Please inquire with PBS if it will run a full program such as yesterday’s BBC’s Panorama.

  298. The truth of it was shown on the BBC. People are free to draw their own conclusions. There will be more expose’s you can be sure. Not just by the BBC.

  299. Or an even broader use:
    “To get anywhere in the business world, you’ve got to miscavige your way up the career ladder.”


    “When he got caught by the police driving drunk, he started to cuss, and then he started to really miscavige until our ears fell off.”

    You get the idea…

  300. Theo Sismanides

    V80657 why don’t you go do something about it yourself instead of telling us here what this video passes along? Stop being a spectator of your philosophy being destroyed and a critic of those who have done and are doing something about it. Start!

  301. I second WH’s “seemed happy” comment about you Marty. You really came across as a maestro with the meter and with the subject. Coupled with Mike’s clear transformation back to calmness and health, I really think you guys were just brilliant.

  302. Mike,
    Sorry, I was off-topic here on this post. My bad.

  303. Theo Sismanides

    Yes Marty, we should know what they didn’t want to publish. That will keep all of the team here informed and aware.

  304. “Synthetic”. Exactly. Thanks Tom.

  305. martyrathbun09

    On course, till you get to the “private institutions with loads of money” being any better. They are usually worse, despite whatever law advantages here, because they can be bought off in two ways: a) the carrot of advertising bucks, and b) the stick of litigation.

  306. martyrathbun09

    Nice post Margaret.

  307. Theo Sismanides

    Samuel, hahaha, the Golden Rod Auditor Certificate goes to Miscavige, certainly, hahaha.

    The Floating Meter!! Hohoho!

    Man, you cracked me!!!

    Your sense of humour with DM shows you are (more) flat on him than me…. hahaha.

    Because the only think I can say is that DM just misses witholds or even better just wants to restimulate witholds and get the guy for a security check on an immediate basis. That’s all he can do.

  308. DM’s dark & dirty secrets have been openly posted on this blog as an ongoing activity for many, many months. If you can’t be bothered to read the articles to learn them, that is no fault of Marty Rathbun, Mike Rinder or any of the other contributing article posters here.

    Michael A. Hobson

  309. I want to commend Mike and Marty. There was more to say? Fine. Don’t despair. Remember, it’s all about persistence and gradients. What was revealed was remarkable on several levels.

    I think what stands out to me the most is the high tone level (including Sweeney) of your team vs the CofS folks. Tommy Davis is simply an embarrasment. He barely gets out of 1.5 and his highest momentary tone is 2.0! The celebes are so antago! There answers are actually and purposely non-sequitor. The beauty of that scene is that Sweeney calmly asks simple questions, which are valid, and he gets entheta back. That is what the uninformed audience will see. Add that to the other scenes with Amy and the Headleys and what comes accross is that the people in the “Church” are crude and defensive. The folks no longer with the “Church” are the antithesis of that. So, it isn’t all about how much “data” has been given, but what the video is showing. The visual impressions are the most telling and will impinge.

    A point on the “data” is that for every lie told the truth was revealed. That was well done. I would like to say that the “church” denile of the OT3 info is absurd.
    Actually, Ron talks about many whole track incidents freely, and the OT3 story is not going to make anyone sick, anymore or less, than other space opera. The process of it has not ( thankfully) been distributed, and it is KNOWING THE PROCESS which might cause a disturbance. It is not the general story. The questions that Sweeney was asking could have been answered truthfully. I mean all religions have creation myths, and they are ALL wild. So we should not be so afraid of discussing it to some degree. Too much mystery keeps the public fixed on it and there can be no as-isness. Then, they top it off with constant lies to really make the subject solid. They are such idiots and they think they are so slick. They CAN’T get three feet behind the “Church” because they can’t get three feet behind themselves.

    Thanks Marty, Mike et al. for all you are doing. DON’T STOP NOW!

  310. Wayne Froemke (AKA "Safe")

    You’re welcome. There is truly a strikingly eerie resemblence. The same type of suppression going on in North Korea goes on within CofS.

  311. Heey V8 turn back to germany.

  312. Firstly well done on the TV piece and good to see Sweeney doing well.
    In regards to the “Anonymous” tag and the perception of them, that is the byproduct of generating publicity. Some bad, some good.

    For the last 5 years when I speak to others and the public it is in reference to the Organisation that harbours the environment that generates these abuses. Treating human beings the way it does.

    In the last 3 years the depth and breadth of what has been highlighted would take many months to collate and truly understand.

    “It took folks who DID appreciate the subject (as opposed to the organization) to convince me to pay attention to what they had to say.” – I understand this and when talking to the public over 1000s of protests over 1000 days, that form of public are not involved in the subject matter.

    I’ve had conversations and worked with scientologists/freezoners and fully respect thier viewpoints.

    For those who are still “afraid” of this small organisation some old snippets here:

    This refers to their form of the “shack” I guess Marty.

    FYI the Youtube adsense budget seems to be running low now and the banner insets on videos are starting to change.
    Please spend it on real estate instead thankyou.

    Hugs from London

  313. It’s the Execs of the BBC that are the problem they do not want a legal hassle over TC and beatings and or foul language used by a Church leader.

  314. The Sea Organization establishing a landbase. Many”for the greater good” hotwired members.

  315. You are wrong, you become mine!

    LLOOLL 🙂

  316. Sounds like you have been studying it in your own way Byron.
    I believe beings are born free and no one can steal that freedom.
    Tragically, it gets given away all too easily.

    Did Hubbard really ever say that every man woman and child must sit down in a quiet room and handle all this?

    Seems to me it was about a good enough group getting down to brass tacks. Applying some level one, and pulling up the big bootstraps.

  317. Wow Wayne~I see now this Dear Leader and how eerily similar the whole thing is. Thank you for the links.

  318. JF, the Australian Broadcasting Corporation is the public broadcaster here. The ABC ran a very hard-hitting program about the Sea Org (one hour) in March 2010. Two short stories about the plight of children of staff and the coaching of an eleven year old child to deny to police that she had been sexually molested (by Jan Eastgate, no less) were aired only 4 months ago.

    I wouldn’t want the ABC to waste money on litigation, but nor would I want it to be a toothless tiger. A responsible news organisation takes into account the public interest in the story being told and not just the bottom line. In my opinion.

  319. Wayne Froemke (AKA "Safe")

    TEG wrote, “Maybe I’ll start to identify myself as OT XV. Now I’ve got hierarchy.”


  320. Well, here is its, the church of miscavige’s response to the BBC program.

    The idea of providing links to their response is to show just how far DM will go to keep the lid on things and control others who chose to speak freely. It also show clearly the reason why private investigators were hired to follow ex church members around where ever they went. I’ll give them credit, they do a good job of black PR.

    If Marty and his moderators don’t post these links, I will understand.

    Warning: It is not pleasant to watch these but I feel it is something we need to see to understand clearly what we are dealing with. I think it’s always best to confront the worst your opponent can throw at you.

    Please remember: The first battle you must win is the battle for your own mind.

  321. Wayne Froemke (AKA "Safe")



    CofS’s SP spin tech, for their kool aid drinkers, is heads and tails above the “Great Leader’s” ability in North Korea. Though North Korea is pretty good at it too. CofS is just better. Perhaps North Korea would be interested in hiring CofS? They would make amazing comrades with their mutual goals!

    Imagine what the world would be like if the existing CofS succeeded on a world-wide scale. It’s easy for me to imagine. I just look at North Korea.

  322. How about a dedicated website – “The Scientology Secrets BBC Couldn’t Tell!”

  323. I loved this review, Jack.

  324. Tara

    This is an interesting remark in light of a conversation I had today with another person, recently out of the church, about their observation that so many OT VII/OT VIII males seem to have gone into dm’s valance. The huge serv-fac, narcissistic, foul-mouthed, 1.1-masquerading as No-Sympathy valance.

    Yes, Dave, I’m talking about you again.

  325. I look forward to this film too!


  326. Sure, get on with it.

    The Count

  327. Sweeny is extremely valuable to Scientology, while intending to destroy he is, due to reverse vectors, boosting actual Scientology like no other with ex members promoting its benefits world wide. Media and general public are attracted by controversy and a shouting bigoted BBC journalist is a very good example; he was the laughing stock of the journalistic world for three years, thanks Tommy! He attracted more attention for the past three years than any campaign in history and thus he now yields top exposure with the highest mainstream tv ratings. The scumbag tactics of the present Church were nicely exposed and the greatest dirt Davey could dig up was an aggressive drunken Marty and a demoted Mike, both caused by the Church and both beautifully recovered after leaving. The gradient applied, the tone level hit, the sense of reality with respect to the general public and the impact created was superb and not easily duplicated by any Scientologist, in or out.

  328. ASGARD (non whistleblower)

    Good job “Loki”

    A Former Asgardian

  329. Dear Amy,
    …but the 0,1% about the disgusting breach of trust was THE killer!! Amy, I read your book – may the sales numbers explode into the millions – then people get the 99,9% anyhow. (Same for Marc’s book et al)

    And Joe, so right on on Mike’s looks – WTF, you die when leaving the “church”??? – here is the proof: All the whistle blowers look happy and healthy and sooooo alive!

  330. Beautiful Windhorse,


  331. Luna,

    that made my day!! ROTFLMAO….lol……hahahahahhaha

  332. I’d consider it a possibility that the secrets were left out as possibly being somewhat unreal for their viewing public.
    If the truth is just too unconfrontable it isn’t believed.
    Perhaps I’m being too nice.
    I thought it was a balanced and fair documentary and was very pleased with the reference to the Independent Movement without getting into some of the wackier aspects of the “Freezone” as occured with an earlier program.
    Given what I have observed of DM and his cronies I suspect that without any restrained they would behave in similar fashion, if not scale, to the Nazis of the 40s.
    It isn’t really clear to me whether the secrets being discussed are of an order of magnitude greater than those things already brought to light here.
    At this point it would take quite a bit to surprise me. I can already anticipate details of DMs bolthole, further details of physical abuse, revelations about the false PR on OT9 and Super Power. Is there worse to come?

  333. oh, V8or something,
    that pommeling of yours is so deserved!!! still LOL, hahahahah
    Thanks for the trigger

  334. Yeah, don’t the laws on stalking apply here? I mean – disgraceful and disgusting.

  335. ASGARD (non whistleblower)

    How’s about some sheet lightning strike ya? It is to be trusted you can dance.

  336. An amazing BBC show. I especially appreciated the parts concerning disconnection and abortions. It showed so well what an odd chuch this is today. Obvious to so many of us now just how odd it is.

  337. Wayne Froemke (AKA "Safe")

    Combine the “church” SP spin tech and the “church” intelligence operations (which rivals that of the FBI), and you’ve got, perhaps, the supreme Totalitarian Tech which the “Great Leader” of North Korea would likely love to pay BIG money for.

    In addition, the CofS would have another juicy, easy and convenient source of NEW funds to help their mission in the expansion of creating an ultimate, world-wide “unification” regime, Marxist-Leninist style.

    “In my opinion the church has one of the most effective intelligence operations in the U.S., rivaling even that of the FBI.” – Ted Gunderson, former head of the FBI’s Los Angeles office, quoted in TIME May 6, 1991

    The CofS is a collectivist, communistic, and totalitarian-dictatoral regime … AKA “Cult”, which (for now) is only a microcosm of the governance that it wants to become on a grand, world-wide scale in the future. That’s their drive under the name, “Clear the Planet.”

    What a trick and scam. Sell “Freedom” to create unaware slavery. In the CofS, “Freedom” truly does equal Slavery.

    100% authentic 1984.

    Perhaps this may be uncomfortable thought for some newcomer church Scientologists to confront, who are bravely here to take a peek and look for themselves, to expand their viewpoint by looking at other points of view. Kudos to you! Just keep looking. That’s all anybody here asks. You will find the truth.

    When you do discover the truth, and you become sad, and/or perhaps afraid, many fellow Scientologists (and even some Anons) are here to comfort you. You’re not alone in your likely mixed feelings. Many before you have experienced the same.

    The really good news is, the Bridge exists outside the CofS, too. So you don’t have to sacrifice anything except inculcation. 🙂

    You’ll discover some amazing and truly Freedom-loving Scientologists here, a place of genuine fellowship. What a fantastic education to finally get to read Scientologists’ innermost thoughts, expressed here. It’s REAL. No phoney social valences here! No duress. No inhibited communication, either.

    To actually be able to say what one thinks, among other good Scientologists, without fear … How sweet! 🙂

  338. StandardTechZealot

    Well, high the fuck five. All that Rathbone and sidekick Rinder did is prevent reach on the most important religion of the 20th century. Those cock sucking idiots took the easy way out. If they could confront an honest day’s work then they would be left with the belief that most in-ethics Scientologists would speculate about. Only a degraded being will work for an SP, and they are walking testaments to that. Why is that only I can put their ethics in??? What more proof do you need of their evil intentions than Rathbone rubbing elbows with psych-indoctrinated squirrels like Sweeney and Behar??? I need to raise my confront of evil when dealing with these two. THERE’S ONE TECH, AND THAT IS STANDARD TECH. Quite frankly, I’m quite happy that all those random squirrels, SPs and degraded beings are going to assemble here. Organized Scientology is much better off with their OUT TECH. Squirrel groups don’t outlast their squirrel leaders. I hope I’m only stating the obvious. And by the way, if you need a good deal on a used car, go ask slime-bucket Rinder about it. We all know he knows how to abandon things.

  339. The more glamour, the more disgust

    Hey, if an individual validates a body of knowledge and goes in favour of it and doesn’t know or be underway to know it, what have you got?
    Nothing what’s worth to move a finger for, for decent aims.

    The fight going on with the church is a bit unreal / off sense, yes, but that’s more or less in rapport with the reality level of society.
    Your view as described goes far more off reality, instead of – as this knowledge you want to have validated at each price would point to – closer to reality.

    Scientology is just a word with some meaning for most. This meaning may be not totally unimportant, but the big importance you give it is nearly a total outpoint.

    Conditionwise, you put the Co$ at near power, recognition of source, and the recognition-ability of the broad public too. Both are far away from this, and you’d better use this not “your”, but at effect validated body of knowledge to put yourself on a viewpoint where you can cognite on this part of reality. Or, even better, face it.

  340. Wayne Froemke (AKA "Safe")


    From what I get in your communication, you may be feeling angry about something. Am I correct? If so, is Marty’s behavior really the target of your feeling? Or if it’s something else, what is it?

    I’ve discovered anger is a tragic expression of an unmet need. That once one discovers what their real need is, their anger dissipates, and they are enabled to rationally strategize on how to meet that need so the anger about whatever item one was angry about, doesn’t make themselves or others miserable about it anymore.

    What makes me sad is the unnecessary “enemy” type thinking which could be totally avoided to make for a more peaceful and happier existance for all. Surely, most want that. Don’t you?

    I’m trying to understand what it is that you’re really looking for by posting what you have above? Would you be willing to expound?

    Perhaps you may find the subject of nonviolent communication as interesting and as helpful as I have. It’s tech designed to help each individual more joyfully get their own and others’ needs met more peacefully in a way (through compassionate giving) which contributes to life, rather than of degrading it by upsetting other people (intentionally or unintentionally) …

    “Nonviolent Communication: A Language of Life”, by Marshall B. Rosenberg, Ph. D.

    (Perhaps a few individuals here may assume you’re a troll. But personally, I prefer to give you the benefit of the doubt, and see if we can have some honest, constructive 2-way comm.)

  341. David: I agree with you 100% on the need for pieces that are informative in a very real way on the subject and use of Scientology. The problem with protest blogs and journalistic / scholarly criticism is that important elements such as purpose, intention and reality factor are often left on the editing floor. The same is true for rabid criticism and rabid fanaticism.

    All too often I see snips of LRH materials quoted to carry an argument — the are taken out of context both in terms of surrounding or later materials and in terms of the time period in which they were written. There is little regard for the possibility that one’s viewpoint can and does change over time through experience and new knowledge, through fundamental changes in tone level – to name a few things. I have always been surprised to find that I can read the same materials from a new viewpoint / insight that I gained from auditing or just living life and find that my understanding of it has changed. Often quite markedly.

    IMO the most important message is that this information cannot be ENFORCED on people. You can’t MAKE someone better. You can MAKE them behave in a different way by using FORCE but you cannot produce reason by using FORCE. One of my greatest challenges over the years has been dealing with staff members who want to HELP me by enforcing their viewpoint and interpretations on me by saying something along the lines of “LRH says…” Indeed, LRH said a lot of things. Millions of words in fact, so many that you can’t possibly jump in with LRH says in a pet quote. Losing sight of the changes over time, the events occurring at the time, the problems being addressed, the overarching principles and underlying fundamentals has led to this ridiculous point of view of LRH as a demi-god and the research / discussion / training materials and lectures found in the books and tapes as “scriptures” to be followed “or else.” “Or else” is just enforcement, is a violation of core principles and I believe it is the primary reason for the disastrous state of the C of S.

  342. Thanks for your Courage & Loyalty to LRH and the Tech. I thought the broadcast was the exact right gradient for the public. It showed the goodness of the Tech, (the e-meter demo was amazing). The information Mike gave about Tommy baiting Sweeney was good because it showed how evil Tommy and DM are. Also, Mikes’ honesty in letting Sweeney know exactly what was going on at the time showed that there is Tech to be learned about the Mind. It set you both up as Opinion Leaders. The broadcast communicated to me your love of Scn and your courage and sacrifices in battling its’ destruction. “The Secrets ” not being published creates a Mystery and maybe a book with the same title would be the way to go.
    Love you, C. Ann

  343. You know, I’m a despicable human being in so many ways, and watching this show reminded me of why I got into Scientology in the first place. It wasn’t the wisdom. It wasn’t the comm course. It wasn’t the idea of going clear. It wasn’t the idea of saving the planet. It was the good-looking women.

    Nothing like a beautiful woman to set my heart thumping.

    No wonder advertiser use those images. Within a week of starting the comm course I had paid for training through level four and auditing through OT3–just because the reg was so damned cute.

    So, maybe next lifetime, when my head is clear, my heart pure and my motives noble, I will return to lend service to humanity. But, for now… Ah! My heart is set to thumping.

    And regardless of my initial motivation, I’ve learned a few things along the way. And met lots of friends. People I truly enjoy. And one of the wonders of the independent movement is that we can go back to just enjoying one another simply because it feels so right. We can share our thoughts and give our support without fear of repercussion.

    That which motivates us varies from individual to individual. But each has so much to contribute, both here and with one another. Great religions spread by word of mouth, not by corporate finesse. It will be our words, our mouths, by which Scientology will spread.

    We are the emissaries of a philosophy. We are the lovers of wisdom.

    Ain’t it a bitch?


  344. The more glamour, the more disgust

    Don’t speak english too well, but “to cavige” must be something good – like to duplicate, to be honest, to act with integrity, or so. 😉

  345. The actual stat to measure the show would seem to be the number of viewers. All other measurements would be opinion only, mine or anyone else’s.

    By stat, this show was a huge success.

  346. I like that phrasing…
    “…because they (private institutions) can be bought off in two ways: a) the carrot of advertising bucks, and b) the stick of litigation.”

  347. Wayne Froemke (AKA "Safe")


    Thank you very much for your gift. Even people’s violent communication is a gift if the underside of it is looked at carefully.

    You too, besides the CofS response video to BBC Panorama, give an excellent example of how the Church has lost their way through lost compassion, no empathy, and the non-existance of nonviolent communication.

  348. Mordern-Shaman

    May be you guys have missed one most important point made in the first part of the PANORAMA,which has never been done or even tried by any print or electronic media journalist: Exposing the sabotage of investigative journalism by a “religious organization” ; getting his (Sweeny) name cleared of bad temperament; and , highlighting the need of caution in dealing with CoS.
    The impact of the PANORAMA is very deep and far reaching in the journalist community.Could you recall any program on similar topic ? none, not at all.
    After this reporting, there will be a series of reporting from other media on exposing the tricks and harassment techniques employed by the Church on journalist and reporters. This report shall not only receive the recognition amongst the journalist community but also become the text book chapter for the students of journalism.
    So, you can imagine that The Church has opened the flood gate for not only the seasoned journalists but also for the students of journalism to dig down deep on the procedures and legal issues raised by the Church to stop such investigative reporting in past and present.
    Now very soon you will notice that the Miscavige scriptures would also name media journalistic along with psychiatric as the worst enemies of human kind.

  349. MissedGarbage Watcher

    I appreciate your efforts,
    Marty, Mike and all people who contributed to this work.

    Thank you very much indeed.

  350. Well now, either you are David McSavage himself (or a not-very-clever troll pretending to be Dear Leader). Don’t you know that Mike and Marty only let your demented posts through because they directly and bluntly demonstrate your madness ?

    There may be only one Standard Tech, but what you’ve been pushing for the last 25 years sure ain’t it.

    Michael A. Hobson

  351. Tony DePhillips

    Wow, that was inspiring!!
    We can only hope that your words are true so when the biggest squirrel of them all who leads the cult departs, that his brand of Mestology does not continue.

    Since you have failed to put ethics in on that group that DM built then we will do it for you. If the current management were truly competent, do you think that it would have gotten to this point?

    You sound like a real good “Yes Man” to me. I bet you don’t have the guts to really handle the situation, in fact you probably can’t even see it.

  352. Tony DePhillips

    Pretty boring stuff.
    If they were trying to hit the tone level of boredom then they succeeded.
    Time for a nap…

  353. That you Dave?

  354. No regrets, you’re the one that chose to stay in longer Margaret.

  355. LRH laid it all bare on this in great detail in the early 50’s OT hatting tapes. (Anatomy of Cause or PDC or Creation of Human Ability, I forgot exactly which set, maybe all three)

  356. “The process of it has not ( thankfully) been distributed,”

    Not on here.

  357. “And the beat goes on….”

    “Federal judge tells Pinellas judge to back off in Scientology lawsuit
    By Thomas C. Tobin, Times Staff Writer
    In Print: Wednesday, September 29, 2010”
    “But in a stinging 29-page order, Merryday questioned the “stunning severity” of the fine and said Beach overstepped his authority. He “permanently enjoined” Beach, the church or anyone else from pursuing the matter, saying they couldn’t even hold another hearing on it.”

  358. ‘Mis-miscavige’ – fail to beat and curse and degrade.
    “You really mis-miscaviged that situation!”

    ‘Out-miscavige’ – to do it better than the other person.
    “Boy, you sure out-miscaviged that guy!”

    ‘Under-miscaviged’ – not enough miscavigement.
    “He under-miscaviged continually and gained a reputation as a wimp.”

    ‘Ne-plus-miscavigement’ – example of miscaviging to the utmost degree.
    “The way Hitler could dress down a general was the Ne-plus-miscavigement of how to keep people in line.”

    ‘Love Minus Zero, No Miscavige’ – the name of a song Dylan never wrote because he didn’t know him.

  359. I ran into a non Scientologist woman last night who had watched “The Secrets Of Scientology” on her computer. I found her feed back interesting. First, the before and after shots of Mike spoke a thousand words. Second, when she heard the audio of Kathy Rinder and Co. attack Mike with such overwhelming hatred and evil it made her cry. Third, she said that she had seen pictures of the little guy who runs Scientology and he looks creepy, evil and insane.

    As a note, Amy is getting a flood of communication from family and friends of Scientologists. They are concerned for the welfare and sanity
    of their loved ones. The secret of DMs suppressive little “game” continues
    to be made known………….

  360. Finally finished watching the show. I thought it was very powerful, very damaging to CofM. Especially the 4th segment. Seeing all those hired investigators following Sweeney around was chilling. Hearing the profane screams directed at Mike by his family in the parking lot was frightening (and saddening).

    I also thought the fact that Sweeney included the boilerplate CofM denial every time he presented credible evidence of a CofM atrocity or outrage had to have been very damaging to CofM. Every fact was presented either by direct video or stated by a very credible witness (and all came across as such, to their great credit).

    To have obvious facts denied over & over communicated clearly that CofM is a scary organization, one that is running amok in society, unaccountable, attempting to intimidate anyone who disagrees with them.

    I’m no newbie & by now I’m well aware of what has been and is going on – and yet, I experienced chills as I watched this program. I can only imagine what impression the average viewer came away with. It cannot have been anything but devastating for DM and his dwindling band of not so merry men (and women).

    As others have remarked, the tear coming down Mareka’s cheek at the end created the most profound impact of all. Seeing that made me choke up. What a terrible thing to do to another human being. And to LRH’s legacy. These people who have hijacked our church are THUGS and they MUST be stopped.

  361. Very likely so, because ironically he is right about organised Scientology being better off with the (fragments of) our out tech than with the massive out tech of Davey which shines through every word of degraded language uttered by a zealot either hiding or just copying every aspect of Davey’s obsessive valence.

  362. Hey STZ,
    Here’s a joke for ya:

    “How many Church of Scientology members does it take to get an F/N?”

    Answer: About 125.

    one to watch the meter.
    one to get the examiner lunch while she waits and watches the meter.
    another one to watch the one watching the meter.
    two or three to distract the pc from the horrible session.
    two or three execs to yell and degrade the auditor.
    sixteen or seventeen ethics officers to gang bang thought control the auditor for failing to stop his own thought that he really got an f/n on the first swing.
    Six writers to rewrite the definition of an f/n.
    Two or three more to coach the pc how to think good stuff so he can simulate an f/n.
    Four or five to install video cameras so the session can be secretly viewed to make sure the needle swung three times.
    At least one good-looking superstar celebrity to instill confidence.
    One mad man dictator to keep in all in line.
    Twelve high priced lawyers in the background as threats.
    Seventy or eighty PIs as intimidators.

    (insert laugh here)

  363. One wonders why every response from the C of M to ANYTHING, any criticism at all is categorical denial and why their own response videos are delivered on a carrier wave of 1.4, hate. At any rate, I would be interested to see a response from John Sweeney to the church’s videos. Him shouting like a fool at the JT premiere in London looks awfully strange.

  364. Sweeney knocking on a car window seen from the other side 😉

  365. We have two dutch shows Nova and Zembla that could broadcast this stuff without comercials

  366. Mike Rinder, 40 years in the Sea Org and you try to imply he abandons things. 40. 40. 40. Even if it was 20 your message is so, so, so empty and easily proven as lies.
    Put a filter over your mouth so your brain has a chance to catch up with and stop the diahrea pouring out of you. Or would that be even scarier. I feel bad for you man. You need some help.
    Whoever or whatever your connected to should be disconnected from asap. Your blinded and cannot think for yourself. If your not smart or have a low IQ, I can understand why your shut off from the fruits of observation, as LRH points out, but there is no need for you not to at least try to think before you speak or react.
    Your rant only makes the point of those you scream about. I suppose we should be thankful for that. Thanks.

  367. Impartial English Girl

    Mr. Rathbun – This weeks’ edition of popular fortnightly satirical magazine “Private Eye” carried a piece about Scientology and the Panorama documentary in its occasional column “Cult Corner”. I couldn’t find any way of sending you a scanned copy (fair enough; am guessing you’d be constantly spammed if you put your email address on here), so have typed it out for you. Here it is:
    “‘ YOU suck cock on Hollywood Boulevard.” This is the word of the Church of Scientology, according to its former spokesman Mike Rinder, who spilled the beans in John Sweeney’s BBC film this week.
    He was citing a text message sent from the office of the leader, David Miscavige, Tom Cruise’s best man – one of many bizarre obscenities, Rinder claims. After half a century inside the church, Rinder now says that it is a cult.

    But some public figures in Britain are still happy to give it the benefit of the doubt. “I don’t think Scientologists get a fair deal,” Jonathan Ross wrote in his autobiography. When Tom Cruise repaid the favour by appearing on Ross’s show, the sycophantic host gave him a very fair deal indeed by not asking about Scientology at all.

    Another admirer is the coalition’s new minister for climate change, Charles Hendry, a Tory MP whose seat borders the 59-acre Scientology estate in East Grinstead. In 2004 Hendry attended the premiere of Tom Cruise’s film Collateral. “I thought Tom was absolutely amazing,” he gushed. When the star chatted to Hendry’s stepdaughter on the MP’s mobile phone, Hendry said: “Clare thought it was the coolest thing ever.” A year later, in July 2005, Hendry told the House of Commons: “Although Scientology may be very controversial… undoubtedly as human beings they do a great deal of good… certainly as an organisation it’s gone through serious hoops in terms of making sure it has the right to broadcast on TV, satisfying the broadcasting commission that it isn’t a cult.”

    The “broadcasting commission” is a reference to the Independent Television Commission, which has since been succeeded by Ofcom. Neither body was in a position to say whether the church was or was not a cult, and neither did. But Judge Latey in the high court in 1984 called it exactly that: “a cult… corrupt, sinister and dangerous… out to capture people and… brainwash them.”

    In Britain, the church operates as the Church of Scientology Religious Educational College Inc. a not-for-profit organisation which filed an income of £12,958,196 in 2008. Despite its wealth, and the Charity Commission’s ruling that the church isn’t a charity for religious purposes, the City of London Corporation grants 80 percent rates relief for its “London Org” (ie HQ) on Queen Victoria Street, thus saving it a total of £1,306,363 in rates since the centre opened in 2006. Westminster city council gives 80 percent rate relief on its “London Celebrity Centre” in Leinster Gardens, saving it £165,303 over the past decade. Birmingham city council gives 80 percent rates relief on the Scientology property at Winston Churchill House, as does Sunderland council at the new £5m “Org” on Fawcett Street. Whether the church enjoys rates relief on the most famous Scientology property in Britain, its “stress test centre” on Tottenham Court Road, is a secret: Camden council refuses to answer questions on the subject.

    A few brave local authorities haven’t yet been brainwashed. Manchester city council charges the full commercial rate on the £5m “Org” in Deansgate. as does Mid-Sussex district council for the estate at Saint Hill Manor near East Grinstead. With a government minister on the Scientologists’ side, however, can it be long before the dissenting councils cave in to Tom Cruise’s creepy church?

    • PS: Further proof of the Scientologists’ wealth is the fact that their solicitors sent the BBC hundreds of letters, running to 1,100 pages in all, while Sweeney was preparing his latest film. Since the solicitors in question are Carter- Fuck – take a bow, partner Alasdair Pepper – the bill is unlikely to be much less than £lm.”
    (N.B. ‘Carter-Fuck’ is how Private Eye always refers to the London law firm Carter-Ruck). I can send you a scanned version, if you prefer.
    IEG x

  368. Bryon, your right. There are many paths up the mountain and they all attract people who share common altruistic traits.
    I am just offering an opinion on the WE COME BACK that it applies to individuals, not the group itself. Others may see it differently.
    I think of the bhodisatva’s in Eastern belief system who forgo escaping from the cycle of rebirth so that they stay in the world to help others. That to me aligns with this spirit as well. Its the type of person whose desire for Light reaches beyond themselves.
    The Sea Org and Scientology attracted a lot of them. And other disciplines do as well. And many are quite independent of any organizational ties.

  369. Stardard Zea-Nothing, Your holly scripture really sounds very moronic – and that is to anyone reading it (not just those on the blog, it’s just … whatever!)

    Thanks Marty, for letting it through – when one has been disconnected from this madhouse for a while it’s good to be reminded that the madness was not only something from the past (and I’m sure, that is a mild dose thereof).

  370. Not a good idea to “study it in your own way”. This stuff can be highly restimulative. Also, it’s pretty heartless to talk to others about this, and potentially stir up their case. LRH wasn’t trying to deny anyone information, he was trying to keep their cases from getting over-restimulated, thus make it all the more difficult to recieve auditing and go free. Really, I think LRH has proven that he knows what he’s talking about, as seen in the results one gets when applying the tech Standardly. It makes sense to follow what he says, as LRH gave instructions based on what he found was workable.

  371. Marty, After seeing the Panorama videos and reading most of the comments here I have to agree that it was a very good expose’ on
    the Church of Scientology. All involved did a great job. You need to
    take a win on this. All of you. My concern is that it also painted a negative
    view of Scientology and LRH to the public. If I were a public anything
    having to do with Scientology I would avoid. I am glad they included
    the stuff you did with the e-meter. You did a great job. But saying LRH was a science fiction writer and the OT3 Xenu stuff just made the subject of Scientology look wierd to the public. To a public the good guys
    left Scientology because it was bad. I’m afraid the public are going to see
    ‘Scientology’ as a cult and not just the ‘Church’. It’s A=A, they won’t differentiate the ‘Church’ from the subject. I know, SO? Well, we got some fixin to do I guess.

  372. STZ:

    Speaking of psychs…

    I could not help but notice your little Freudian slip (and I exactly quote..):

    “Organized Scientology is much better off with their OUT TECH.”

    Thank you for telling me that.

    And, you have yourself a nice day, kk? 

  373. ASGARD (non whistleblower)

    Teg, no offense recieved. If tone arm is occuring on the eight dynamics, what the hell.

    My decision is per HCOB of 2nd May 1965.

  374. You got flirty-fished without them even trying.

  375. “The process of it has not ( thankfully) been distributed, and it is KNOWING THE PROCESS which might cause a disturbance.”

    Hate to burst your bubble but, ALL the data was put online long ago. No worries. No one has been harmed by viewing it. People who want to can still do those levels. And, they are. Outside the CofM.

  376. I really admire you, Standard Tech Zealot. I hope you keep contributing to Marty’s blog. Keeping Scientology Working certainly involves pointing out the squirrels. By definition, a squirrel alters the tech. May I share a gem of LRH wisdom here?

    “If it doesn’t work, it is being altered”.

    That seems to be be a pretty workable definition for figuring out who the squirrels are. Look at the results in auditing. Since Scientology wins are mostly subjective, you need to look at the results in your own life. I would like to thank Marty here for lifting me up. He even lifted Richard Behar.

  377. Sounds to me like ‘Jenny from the Cock’.

    Just Me

  378. ASGARD (non whistleblower)

    Withdrawn. HCO PL 2nd May 1985

    Ex Asgardian

  379. Modern-Shaman, that is a really good point — that these two Panorama programs might become journalism school training cases for new generations. I had not thought of that.

    Just Me

  380. I sincerely thank all those that were interviewed and incurred travel costs and those behind the scenes that provided support in providing the BBC with factual information. In particular those that went on camera and went public in a big way for the good of us all.


  381. So sorry Erwin, but I do not follow what ya say. At all.

  382. The hard reality is Sarge — the public face of scientology is BEYOND repair.

    It’s that kind of uphill battle that cannot, IMHO, be won. It’s attempting to push an avalanche uphill.

    What CAN be done though are islands of sane, happy individuals who use LRH’s tech promoting it by being embodiments of the tech. This will start in itself to bring calmness to a world beset by negativity and fear.

    In order for scientology or ANY wisdom tradition to flourish, the environment in which it is practiced MUST be calmer. It’s DAMN hard to practice meditation or anything in the middle of a war, or a divorce, or being downsided and bankrupt. It’s up to US, to calm this environment.

    Independents can on a one on one basis, let others know WHY they are doing well and what makes them happy without coming across as a prosthelytizer (which people run from).

    I think Marty’s latest book recommendation about organizing without an organization will give clues how to do this — I just started it last night so don’t know yet.

    BUT — my main point is … people are not stupid. They will NOT join something that has as its members people who are uptight, who are bigoted against gays, who divide families by “their own choice” (yeah, right), who advocate forced abortions, whose ex-wives ambush them in the name of family etc etc

    People will get interested in what makes YOU happy and able to overcome adversity.

    And you can direct them to someone in the independent field for auditing or courses.

    Become an island of sanity — linking up with other islands until we are all connected!!


  383. I don´t mean to be mean, I just don´t get it and I´ve read this now five times. Could it be the way the comma´s are placed or the lack of them?

    At the very beginning you seem state that Sweeney intends to destroy. What, Scientology? The church? BBC? Me and you? Lost me there already, see. Sorry.

  384. For those wondering what was removed from the show…it was most definitely the stuff about DM beating on his staff. There were 4 people on that show (Marty, Mike, Amy, Marc) who have either seen or experienced the beating first hand, and you can bet they will have told the BBC all about it, including maybe some new details we had not heard before.

    For those wondering why it didn’t make the edit, it was simply because of legal issues. Sweeney would have LOVED to have nailed it to Miscavige, and it doesn’t matter that the general public don’t know who he is, Sweeney would have absolutely delighted in telling the world that the leader of Scientology beats people up on a regular basis.

    The best he could do was reveal the swearing. Why? Because he had evidence, because the BBC could read the messages. Do you think if Sweeney bothered to broadcast swearwords on his show, he would not broadcast allegations of violence from a “pope” if he could? He would HAVE LOVED TO!!!!!

    I assume these legal wranglings have been the reason for the delayed broadcast of the show.

    Sooner or later, someone who has signed one of those affidavits saying they never saw DM beat anyone up will blow. Then another, then another. It will be interesting to see how these broadcasters (CNN, BBC) react to someone who says “I know I said that, I’m sorry, but it wasn’t true. Here’s why I had to sign it, and yes I have seen the bruises”.

    It’s a real shame Tommy Davis didn’t jump out the back of one of those cars to confront Sweeney – that really would have been awesome.

    Where is Tommy these days by the way, has he blown again or is he in at the moment, it’s so hard to keep track of the guy! In, out, in, out – the guy must be dizzy.

  385. I’m sorry to make an issue of this if English is not your first language, but I can not understand what you are trying to say. At all. Not even a little bit.

  386. Church of Scientology members can get F/N’s??

  387. Greebly wrote “For those who are still “afraid” of this small organisation…”

    It’s not a matter of causing fear Greebly, it’s a matter of Anonymous doing and saying things which make the Church’s use of the term “bigot” seem warranted — which then gives Scientologists the excuse to ignore them.

    If you want to be effective, imho, encourage Anons to attack abuses, not the religiosity or spirituality of Scientology.

  388. Huh? And that is sequitur how…?

  389. What a great observation.

  390. Leland Conrad Powers

    You’re incorrect.

    I am just asking for him to tell us what these secrets are, not an unusual request given he says there were things which were not included in the programme.

  391. Another excellent post Maria. Couldn’t agree with you more.

  392. e-mail sent!

  393. Joe,
    It was that, and Sweeney’s staging the banging on a backdoor of the Church, in 2007, that made the CoM’s response video in 2007 more effective, imho. Also, his whole “poke an alligator in the eye” approach came across as disresepctful and as a reporter who had made his mind up, even before the piece was written.
    And unfortunately, the shouting only made it worse.
    The CoM is still clearly getting mileage out of it.
    But I hope Sweeney does a Part 3, where he delves into the Independents and what still draws them to the subject of Scientology.

  394. Kirsi, I think he’s saying that he thinks Sweeney is helpful to the subject of Scientology, in the eyes of non-Scientologists, but not helpful to the CoM per se.
    And with this latest one of Sweeney’s, I’d have to say I agree.

  395. WH, Words of wisdom again. Thank you. I think at this point taking
    down the suppression of DM and company and a grass root approach
    is what is needed. Its sad but starting over and doing things right is
    all we can do now. It is amazing what word of mouth can do to promote
    a good product, especially with the help of the internet. Love

  396. I have no problem with the Xenu story or the entities. I read a book called “Pigs In the Parlor” by Frank and Ida Mae Hammond. Although it is a Christian book, the description of evil spirits falls in line with much of L. Ron Hubbard’s theories. One does not need to entirely on the same page with LRH with the origin of these entities, just their nature, activities and getting rid of them!

  397. STZ wrote: “All that Rathbone and sidekick Rinder did is prevent reach on the most important religion of the 20th century”.

    Don’t you mean the most debased and decadent CHURCH of the 20th century?

    As far as the RELIGION — the spiritual philosophy — I’d say not since the “Beginner’s Guide to L Ron Hubbard” has the subject of Scientology been actually demonstrated and portrayed in such positive light by a journalist — thanks to both Marty’s actual demonstration of a pinch test, and Marty and Mike’s continued support of the subject, after leaving the joke of “Church” created by your BFF, DM.

  398. martyrathbun09

    Derek, your view aligns quite closely with mine.

  399. Sad but true the members keep drinking the kool-aid
    DM must have really sweet tasting kool-aid

  400. Wayne Froemke (AKA "Safe")

    What a bunch of brilliant Theta responses to “StandardTechZealot” from Mike Hobson, Tony DePhillips, Vulhala, Erwin Croughs, OTDT, Loki, Samuel, Jen, Bryon, and Just Me. You guys are so awesome! 🙂


    I’m really trying to understand your intention. What is the purpose of your post? Was there a rational point to it that you wanted to impinge on others here, and if so, what is it? (specifically)

    Do you earnestly intend to have dialog with others here, using the real 2-way communication formula that Scientology, the science of “knowing how to know”, teaches?

    Surely you don’t really believe there are a bunch of SP’s here, do you? If so, I’m truly sad that’s the world you feel you’re living in.

  401. Impartial English Girl

    In case my two cents are worth anything, I’ll say that I am fairly anti-Scientology (or most religions anyway, tbh). But one of the scenes in the Panorama programme that I found particularly interesting – and touching, in some ways, – was the part where Mr. Sweeney was audited by Mr. Rathbun, with Mr. Rinder watching. Marty explained the process logically, unsensationally, in a good-natured way and demonstrated how it worked. When the needle reacted in a way that Mr. Sweeney confessed was owing to a “naughty thought” (you boys… honestly 😉 !), there was no mockery or derisive laughter, just discretion and good-humoured smiles with no pressure to explain the nature of the thought. That spoke incredibly strongly to me, as an impartial viewer, perhaps more than anything has done so for me before, about how people CAN find Scientology helpful in their lives. That is, when properly applied by caring individuals – not the “Scientology” that MisCavige has been sp*nking all over for years.
    It was a simple – but very telling – scene, in my view.
    IEG x

  402. Wayne Froemke (AKA "Safe")


    Brilliant observation that I totally missed.

    Sweeny may very well go down in journalistic teaching history that gives vivid examples of …

    1) What NOT to do as a journalist.

    2) What to do when the people of the subject you’re investigating, tries to intimidate and stop you. (An extremely important subject, IMO)

  403. Thanks Marty.

    BTW, I seem to have problems typing posts on this blog. I’m pretty sure it’s not my computer because the problem is exclusive to this blog.

  404. The BBC show “The Secrets of Scientology” was a successful expose on the sinister intimidation, in action. Even though the show documented only a small tip of the iceberg, the modus operandi of the organization calling itself the “Church of Scientology” has been correctly observed and spotlighted.

    I find it important to note that the show did include coverage about the infamous text messages from the Office of the COB to his “church” staff, berating and invalidating dedicated Sea Org executives with obscenities. This is significant because, even though the Organization of Scientology issued a statement that these text messgaes “could have been” (ooo loophole mania) “forgeries”, and BBC dutifully included their soundbyte statement, one can surmise there is ample proof 1). these abusive text messages are in fact genuine, that the obscene insults were indeed texted from David Miscavige’s phone and 2) the office was in charge of and aware of people who were off on intimidation and surveillance missions. to undermine and destroy.

    The text messages can be verified and proved. They are on record in actual phones and with the phone providers. BBC obviously did their homework, and by verifying and reporting on the abusive texting and surveillance orders/games from the Office of COB, proved validity of at least one of the many complaints of people leaving, i.e., verbal abuse and unethical abuse of power. In they process, this simultaneously spotlighted the Organization as Habitual Liars. And offers more credibility to some ground, i.e. “the secrets left on the cutting room floor”, that have yet to come to light, but for legal and practical reasons were circumvented.

    This abuse of people serving ideals and the betterment of life is deeply tragic and disappointing. The abuse of persons asking for help is, bar none, one of the most heinous travesties possible against human decency.

    My sentiments seeing this show were mixed: triumph for truth, justice, sadness, loss, admiration and …hope. I admired everyone who communicated. It was notable how much more radiant and well the Independent Scientologists are than those “inside.”

    The operation of the trademarked brand Scientology emerges as sinister, abusive, and dishonest and run by a megolomaniac playing with people’s lives and black SUVS as though they were a Tonka toy collection pitted against make-believe (delusion or play, choose) enemies. It emerges this way not because of any bias a media reporter might have (wrong target), but because of the proven documentation of habitual, repeated transgressions against the mores of society and code of human decency — not to mention looking like a bunch of unenlightened, sickly sourpusses.

    I’m not saying this to be mean. Come on! These are NOT the poster children for enlightenment. It was sad to see so many unhappy, uptight people. However, it is not because of Scientology. This is the tricky illusion that public awareness needs to grasp! The irony is that people outside the “Church” are using the actual subject of Sceintology as it was developed and for the purposes it was intended, i.e. help and self-help.

    While the spotlight BBC directed toward unconscionable and irresponsible behavior by a US Corporation was laudable, courageous, cutting edge journalism and successful, I was very disappointed by the comic book representation of the intergalactic warlord .

    Unlike others, I’m not offended by it, I’m merely disappointed at the inaccuracy of the depiction and hope this does not undermine the validity of excellent reporting, i.e. being the eyes of the world and all the duties and protocol of objectivity that entails. The first inaccuracy about the outerspace stuff is that it this is touted as the crux of Scientology — it is not! The depiction is understandable from one POV (point of view): it’s easier to wrap one’s mind around a cartoon in 30 seconds media time! And we all love a good laugh. And it is an easy, cheap shot at ceritfying some who would believe such a thing as nutty. Right?

    I personally think good reporting broke down in that spot. All that journalism would have required to fix that hole would have been the inclusion, even if brief and summarized, of the broader spectrum of the subject of Scientology, and also a brief parallel of similarity and differences of other religions as a comparison.

    Here’s an example of how I think it failed: The comic book illustrated sound-byte of “what Scientologists believe” would be the same as if a show about the abuses of the Vatican, for example, depicted the Christian practice of Holy Mass as a cannibalistic ritual by people thinking they were drinking real blood and eating flesh of a man named Jesus Christ. Yikes! There’s some iota of truth there, but it does not make it accurate. The other disservice done by such a depiction would be that Mass is only one of many sacraments and rituals practiced.

    But besides, a way that Scientology differs from many religions is that it is not based on beliefs.

    My point is not to discuss Holy Communion as a metaphor, nor is it to examine the validity of any ritual a person chooses to employ that serves as a solution and instrument for betterment or understanding of existence and Life. These are largely personal matters.

    Where religion stops being a personal matter to respect in others is where it crosses the line into intrusion and abuse of people. Then it becomes public. And that is what the BBC has successfully platformed. I can only hope the public at large can differentiate between the subject. The reality is that most people already do make the distinction between spirituality and religion. Why? Because religions have a history of being hijacked and altered for personal gain by delusional and corrupt dictators. So I don’t think it’s too big a leap for viewers watching the show to make.

    Yes, it’s somewhat primitive to see a subject I understand, such as Scientology, a subject that holds merit and is efficient, be reduced to a few yuks of a media sound-byte…but I’m not going to pull an Anne Archer over it;) lol

    As for life on other planets, hey, yestedray the first Earth-like planet revolving a sun was discovered, and the astrophysicist who discovered it states he’s 100% sure it has the conditions for Life.

    I hope to see many discussions about Scientology and the nature of life amongst well-meaning people.

  405. Wayne Froemke (AKA "Safe")


    Oh, OK. Perhaps I misduplicated the apparent tone of the comment. Thank you for your clarification. 🙂

  406. Wayne Froemke (AKA "Safe")

    WindHorse wrote “The hard reality is Sarge — the public face of scientology is BEYOND repair. It’s that kind of uphill battle that cannot, IMHO, be won. It’s attempting to push an avalanche uphill.”

    I agree, WH. Ironically, the CofS, in their psychotic obsessive desire to supposedly protect the image of Scientology, “stupidly” does the exact opposite of creating a positive image. This has been going on for years, and years, and years.

    It’s amazing to me they apparently, even still, don’t see that! Thus it behooves the questions …

    Are the CofS’s foot-bullets caused from just plain “stupidity” of Staff?

    Or is there INTENT to damage Scientology by clear design?

    IMO, it’s a combination of both.

    For the well-meaning Staff of CofS, it’s stupidity caused from their being unknowingly and seriously PTS.

    Behind their PTS is the cause to destroy Scientology, by design, from a certain, clearly-named (on this blog) SP.

  407. Byron,

    There are technical reasons for keeping these data particularly the techniques confidential which if run on lower level cases tends to cave them in. Not lead them to spiritual freedom or enlightenment.

    Which is supposed to be what Scientology is about.

    Also how are these data supposed to be “evolved”?

    The CIA has been involved in “evolving” these theories under their mind control initiative and have been able to create multiple personality disorders in relatively sane individuals.

  408. Wayne Froemke (AKA "Safe")


    STZ wrote: “All that Rathbone and sidekick Rinder did is prevent reach on the most important religion of the 20th century.”

    In contrast to STZ’s statement above? I say …

    All that CofS does is prevent reach on the most important science (the science of “knowing how to know”) of the 21st Century.

  409. Tony DePhillips

    My final answer: STZ. Just consider the BBC show “signs of success”!! LOL!!

  410. Wayne Froemke (AKA "Safe")


    You wrote, “All that Rathbone and sidekick Rinder did is prevent reach on the most important religion of the [20th] century.”

    Come to PT. (Dave?)

    Most of us now live in the 21st century, not the “20th century.”

    In fact, we’re almost at the end of the first decade of the 21st century.

    Attached: Helpful reference info to find out where you are … 😉

  411. Exactly Tom. However, I prefer to not feed the troll claiming to be an VIII yet has disdain on Source and the SO who ran the ship enabling VIIIs to occur. One thing the posts are good for is to run data series drills – how many outpoints can you spot in the posts?

  412. BW,

    You know, perhaps Dear Leader might also see that huge outpoint of Mike looking 200% better years later from the postings on Marty’s blog and the Panorama program.

    Perhaps Heber and those still in the Hole will get better food from now on! We do change and better conditions of our old friends still in.

  413. Great analysis V.

  414. anyone else got problem?

  415. Wayne Froemke (AKA "Safe")

    Publius wrote, “These people who have hijacked our church are THUGS and they MUST be stopped.”

    Excellent comment, Publius.

    Essentially, we’ve had THUGS hijack the CofS, and use it for profit, to demand admiration, and to control other bodies (commit slavery).

    What Scientologist would have ever imagined that a BULLY would end up becoming the “Great Leader” of the CofS.

  416. Oh Impartial English Girl, I agree with you. Wasn’t that just a thing of beauty? I’m so fortunate to have benefited from that, so I can personally attest: that is real auditor presence. And it was poignant and beautiful to watch. Marty Rathbun is an ace and true auditor, with all the unshakable compassion that comes with understanding and knowing the woof and warp of human condition foibles. Mike Rinder’s presence was a living attestation to his obvious purpose and character, an emissary of the balm of understanding. It also spoke volumes for the inherent goodness and sensibility of the BBC journalist John Sweeney. It was simply magnificent! THEY are simply magnificent!

  417. Impartial English Girl,

    I’m not trying to proselytize, honest! I’d just like to try to paint a picture for you of how different the Church of Scientology used to be compared to today and why it is that Marty’s auditor behavior appeared to be so safe when you saw him on TV showing John Sweeney how the e-meter worked.

    I was a public member of the Church from 1972 through 1988 and spent many, many hours on both sides of the meter – I’m OT4 and Class 4. From those years I don’t recall a single time an auditor or a word clearer or a qual person or an ethics officer tried intentionally to make me wrong or harass me or invalidate me or f**k with me in any way.

    To illustrate, here’s a story that may out me to some lurkers. Before I was in Scientology I practiced Transcendental Meditation. In TM you’re given a mantra and agree to never reveal your mantra. (Since then many times I’ve seen my TM mantra printed in mainstream magazines and newspapers, so it’s not really a secret anymore.) But once in an auditing session the subject of my TM participation and my confidential mantra came up. My auditor, seeking details, asked what my mantra was. I said, “Sorry! That’s confidential. I agreed to keep my mantra a secret. Not telling!” And my auditor said, “Thank you very much, your needle’s floating. Ok, now we’ll take up the subject of ….” And that was the end of that.

    Because you see – THAT’s the way auditing is supposed to go. One’s own upsets, problems, withholds and the much more interesting things one addresses in auditing are defined and evaluated by the preclear, NOT by the auditor. The auditor’s job is to get the preclear into session, ask questions, listen to answers, acknowledge and basically get the hell out of the way. And, of course, sort things out if things get tangled up or too complicated. But when the auditor starts interrupting and drawing attention to themselves or being interested in something the preclear has no interest in or telling the preclear that they’re wrong about their perceptions, then the session has gone kaput! That’s not auditing. I don’t know what that is, but again it’s not auditing.

    This past year I’ve been astonished to understand the bizarre changes that have taken place in the Co$ since I left it for reasons having to do with the Scientology organization, especially its money-for-status aspects. All these stories of heavy-handed sec-checking and black Dianetics and reverse Scientology are still slightly unreal to me – only because I was never subjected to them. But I absolutely believe the people who are telling these horror stories.

    So if you hear some of us whinging on and on about the ‘tech’ – it’s because we learned about Scientology when it was simply about helping people become more able and explore the bigger Mysteries of Life and our own smaller lives. I think you would have had to have loved the subject and experienced its effectiveness to now be so appalled by how it has been diluted and destroyed inside the Church to serve the need for greed and power and insanity of a few.

    And before anyone else says it – I know, tl; dr.

    Just Me

  418. Yes, me too. But I think it’s the four videos embedded above.

    If you type your message in another application, like Word, and paste it here it goes faster.

    Just Me

  419. I’d like to have seen JB interviewed, to get the latest on Int Base from JB’s own mouth, on camera.

    When’s JB gonna be interviewed by media?

  420. Veritas,

    Talk about giving hope! Knowing that people like you exist gives me hope. The capacity to analyze and differentiate, to evaluate and put into perspective. Too often we take a datum and simply accept it without the effort to evaluate it and provide it relative meaning and placement. The OT 3 story is such an irrelevant part of my study of Scientology. What is relevant is knowing how to know, taking the effort to understand, and finding out what life is really all about.

    Thanks for sharing.


  421. Impartial,

    Your two cents are worth two cents, but properly invested, who the fuck knows how much they’re worth. Sharing ideas is always an investment.
    I’m curious about your view on religions. You strike me as an honest person, with the integrity to make your own conclusions. That’s always fascinating, in and of itself.


  422. Cat Daddy,

    “Flirty fished?” Interesting way to put it.
    This was 1970. The Scientology stuff cost me about the same as a brand new German sports car I had just purchased for cash. The sports car has long since lost its value. The Scientology has continued to provide value far beyond its cost.
    The cute reg was sincerely interested in me and my well being. It wasn’t a scam or a sales push. We were just talking. She was pregnant. I wasn’t really interested in her or what I could get out of her. Her message just made sense. And proved prophetic.
    So, flirting sometimes can lead to something greater. My wife and I flirted the first time we met and ended up with two kids. And we still love each other.
    And fishing can be a hell of a lot of fun.

  423. I finally had a chance to look at this – I do have a day job, after all!

    Well, I don’t know what you all were expecting with this, but I for one am really happy with it. I think John did an excellent job. Marty, that was an EXCELLENT pinch test – there is no doubt John thinks it does not work, and the audience should have picked it up. Mike, you look like a new man!

    The “Reformation” – Awesome. This is the first thing I have seen that knocks the crap of the church bet leaves Scientologists alone – and actually makes Scientologists look like people.

    The stories of broken relationships. The story that people leave after YEARS of service. A. They feel they need to leave when for X years they were on staff and helping the cause, B. that when they do leave all their relationships – familial, friendships, even business, are forcibly and irrevocably severed, and C. that then, on top of all that, they are TRASHED by the church, publicly and privately.

    And, the wonderful language of Mr. David Miscavige and the rest of the goons.

    Sweeney was excellent at pushing at the outpoints.

    I mean, this was good. Really, really good. The OT thing was hokey, but when is it not?

    Mike – AWESOME job.

    Marty – AWESOME job.


    I look forward to meeting you both. Perhaps next July if you are doing another surprise wedding!

  424. martyrathbun09


  425. Noticed a typo on the pinch test – There is no doubt that John Sweeney knows the meter works, that is for sure.

    I also wanted to point out the two encouraged abortions and the total non-comm between husband and wife for EIGHT MONTHS! Not even a phone call. What kind of BS is this?

    Let’s see. The SO. Hates the 2nd dynamic – no kids, no real marriages, no sex at all. Hates the 1st dynamic – no sleep, iffy food many times, no pay, total subjugation of the self for the cause. How about the third? Well, members that produce for years are put on the RPF or worse with little more than a profanity-laced diatribe from COB asking for their head. Kind of bad there. The fourth? The SO seems to have individuated from the fourth – hidden away from the rest of mankind, not engaged in any activity that humans do.

    The SO is four for four on screwing up the dynamics. Unless I missed something.

  426. Veritas,

    All I can say is wow! Having been raised Catholic I appreciate your weaving of parallels. Utterly beautiful. And a great analysis of the situation.

    ML, Tom

  427. Lunamoth~That was in 1999 so I can imagine how pervasive that valence is now. 😦

  428. Mike and Marty,

    Finally I had a chance to see the entire series, though I haven’t had time to read all the commentary.

    I thought the series was very, very well done. Very British, rightfully so. Mike, the juxtaposition of your photos, voice, and responses then and now was such a dramatic contrast, it spoke reams. All the former members seemed so sincere, humane, and “real.” Understandable that Mr. Sweeney felt he had to write this transition chapter after the 2007 blow-up.

    Marty, I really enjoyed observing that brief bit of meter handling and comm cycle doing the meter demo. I would feel confident if ever you were to audit me. You also did a nice job of assuaging Mr. Sweeney’s worries. I continue to be shocked that sessions are (secretly) recorded and that pc folders are culled for material to harass and not help. To me, this is the most sacred trust – and the most basic tenet of the auditor’s code. Of all the horrors I’ve been reading about, this is to me the most evil.

    Thank you both for your courage and service.


  429. Freedom Fighter

    “Talk about giving hope! Knowing that people like you exist gives me hope. “

    The sheer sanity of your comment, Veritas, brought tears to my eyes. Thank you for being there and communicating.

  430. Ditto. Excellent analysis.

    Re the OT III story. I don’t like the cartoon, but as an OT, I really do not know how to handle this if it comes up. I personally would say “no comment,” politely. I am not comfortable talking about it in conversation (not that I have) but, mainly because it was so drilled into me on the OT III course that it is under covers. And, I do believe that people can key in to this stuff, just like they key in to the clam and other incidents. But now, OT levels are publicized and everywhere, but from what I read, incomplete and fairly inaccurate, and always out of context. The only ones who tell the story are the detractors, so they, in effect, are defining what OT is for the public.

    I understand the reason and the point of OT III, and I got a serious amount of gain from it. But, all you see is the sensation and a shocking story.

    I will say that having people totally denying any part of it is stupid and ineffective. But, I am curious as to how other Independents/Reformers (love that!) are approaching it.

  431. WH, that’s great. Wonderful point of view. We really should be Islands of Sanity, and that is very achievable by using Scientology correctly and effectively. That is absolutely how I feel about it – and it does not require anyone else to start doing it. But it sure is great to have friends who get it.

  432. Yes – Marty did an excellent job. Truly excellent. That, to me, was the highlight of the show. I think the dichotomy between how Mike and Marty was acting, and how the Church was reacting was incredible compelling.

  433. That sums it up, JM – My experience as well.

    My staff experiences were interesting, sometimes painful, sometimes invigorating, and sometimes horrifying.

    But, my training and auditing experiences were always excellent – save the OT sec check overruns, and even they were not done with any malice.

  434. So, I was reading some of the comments here, before and after I saw the show.

    This show is a milestone for us as Scientologists. It really is. It shows the passing of the baton of real Scientology from the church, to the Reformers. I’d love to hear your takes on this, but I really think that is the case.

    I was thinking – when I was younger, and something weird would happen when I was on staff or on course, I would think to myself – “That’s not Scientology.” Since I was trained well at an early age, I knew enough to know what was and what was not “kosher” from a tech point of view.

    When I saw shows on TV (the ABC show in 1976 was the first I really noticed, but then there was 60 minutes and other shows), I would not recognize what the show was passing off as Scientology. I had done training, I was auditing and audited, I knew the value of the meter, of clay demos, of doll drills. To see this stuff paraded as somehow crazy made no sense to me, and pissed me off.

    That changed. Later shows and news article showed things I had seen, but that I knew were not kosher Scn. So, I would still say – “but, but, that’s NOT really what it is!”

    I remember in 1982, there was an Supercargo (I think) at ASHOF who was really cute, but pure SO. She had recruiting targets – had to get people on staff as SO. I was seeing her about some ethics issue or another, and an emergency came up. GET THIS:

    In order to meet the recruiting targets, an ASHO Van would go down to skid row in Los Angeles every night, ask homeless people if they had even done LSD, and if they hadn’t, they would recruit them into the SO by telling them they would have nice food and a place to stay. So, the emergency was that there was a fight when the evening’s catch came in. They were fighting over a bottle of wine. This shocked the hell out of me. It was like seeing a stripper with her makeup off. I actually saw this.

    So, as shows happened and articles were printed (the Penthouse article with Nibs, the Time article), each time I could see that, yes, some of these things happened, but they are not really Scientology.

    Well. Here’s the rub. Now, I have to say that, yes, now it IS Scientology. What you see on Sweeney’s show is what “Scientology” has become. I can no longer defend it as I did before by saying what you saw was an aberration. Unfortunately, it is the reality. What I do is the “aberration.”

    So, since a thetan never quits, and we are thetans after all, I can now point at the whole church and say: “That’s not Scientology! We are!”

    This is a watershed for us, folks. I truly believe it.

  435. John,

    Were you not taught the needle only F/N’s when the PC has AS-ISed whatever it was reading on? And that this can only happen when he has perfectly duplicated it, that is completely viewed the Truth of whatever it was ?

    I’m not even a classed auditor and I know this.

    Michael A. Hobson

  436. You always bring calm and personal touch to the scene. Thank you.

  437. Oh Hi fellow Anon 😉 Impressive bit of trolling Sir. almost fooled me.

  438. Great.

    But please understand I meant groups, not individuals.

    I’m going to take that to mean you wanna be friends too. 😀

    (PS. I’ve had problems with this page the last 2 days also. It keeps freezing up while I’m typing.)

  439. DFB, Can you be specific? Which precept(s) of the code do you say Sweeney didn’t stick to? How specifically did he diverge from those precepts? Are you talking about his 2007 interview? Thanks.

  440. No way, V8–When I left I had not seen this violence–I was not close to Miscavige in any administrative capacity. I just never moved on the Bridge during my 22-year stay there even though I worked my butt off. The number of people posted to audit the crew was never NEAR any proper amount to get the int base crew up the Bridge–they mostly did select execs or favorites. Just recruit them, promise them all the things LRH says SO members are to receive, and tough if they never get it. I finally realized I would never get much or any auditing if I stayed there, and neither would 99% of the rest of the crew. I found out about the violence well after I left. I stayed that long partially due to dedication, and one of the other reasons was the entire crew was being lied to in “briefings” about how straight up and vertical our expansion was. So I thought I was accomplishing something for others at least. Just wanted to give you another viewpoint of even more crap that goes on there. There are even more reasons to leave!

  441. Wayne Froemke (AKA "Safe")

    A few here have asked what are the REAL secrets of Scientology. I believe they should know. The real secrets are uglier than most good people can likely conceive the evil of, or confront. As hard as it may be to swallow, I will make my own attempt to help point them to it.

    More accurately, the BBC Panorama show should really be called …

    “The Secrets of the CofS and Reverse Scientology”

    The program just barely skimmed the very surface of the secrets.

    Keep in mind when you read the rest here, what I refer to is not really Scientology, but truly REVERSE Scientology … the exact opposite of what L. Ron Hubbard intended (IMO), and the organization (CofS) who applies it.

    If you haven’t already, watch the North Korea videos I posted above, first.

    Many aware Sea Org staff (who have most likely already cognited and are out of CofS) will likely verify the similarities between the North Korea government and its People, and the governance of CofS and its Staff and members.

    Perhaps the People of the country who are most aware of the tragedy of Totalitarian rule are the good People of Germany. Clearly, they do not want to experience a tragic repeat of what happened already in their Country. So they are hyper aware, and never want to lose their Democracy again.

    So no wonder why it stands to reason the CofS and Scientology have been severely scrutinized by German scholars.

    Realize though, when they mention “Scientology”, they are really talking about CofS and Reverse Scientology (IMO). This will especially help Scientologists be able to read through this without being offended. I don’t read into the following work as an insult to the goodness of the science of (white) Scientology itself … the “science of knowing how to know”.

    I believe this will explain to Scientologists and non-Scientologists alike how church Scientologists can be put into a “coma” and stay in it …

    The PDF version …

    Click to access system_so_engl.pdf

    I don’t pronounce the truth of ALL of it, but there is a lot of truth, IMO. It seems as if it is virtually a BLUEPRINT of what DM is doing. I understand some Scientologists will deny this can be. But personally, the more I look and confront this, the more real and true this is to me.

    In no way am I questioning LRH’s intent. I think his intent got twisted totally backwards, of which he even warned us about this! It is no wonder to me that the German People fear this trap, and perhaps even a repeat of their nightmare which could be potentially worse, especially if expanded globally.

    Exerpt …

    “Its activities have come into conflict with democratic societies around the world and continue to do so. After an in-depth examination, an Investigative Commission titled “So-called Sects and Psycho-Groups” set up by the German Bundestag (Parliament) described the organization in its final report as an anti-constitutional movement with a criminogenic structure. This evaluation is in agreement with that of the German forces of order.

    (crim·i·no·gen·ic adj. Producing or tending to produce crime or criminality)

    “Behind the cloak of a new religion, this organization – described as a psycho-group and not as a religious community by the Investigative Commission – was able to skillfully hide its salient structural traits until recently, namely organization and logistics of a commercial corporation; expansionist strategies of an aggressively functioning structural distribution system (marketing of franchises by forming chains of subsidiary companies, hard-selling of human leadership and change in the form of social engineering.”

    “In other words, ruthless of psychological and social techniques borrowed from behavioral psychology in order to recruit workers, customers and members; use of totalitarian organization techniques to thoroughly discipline and intrumentalize its workers by constant control in terms of time and space.”

    (Italics mine)

    Whenever such procedures are purposely used to manipulate and harm a person (see “Newspeak” in Orwell’s 1984), the science of psychology loses its quality as a therapeutic and pedagogical means of assistance and becomes nothing more than an insidious weapon.

    The most spectacular instance of the effectiveness of the behavioral methods is when the political or philosophical convictions of a prisoner are altered to suit the program of a torturer applying torture that leaves no physical traces on the body (so-called psycho-torture). This is how American POWs in the Korean War were “converted” to Communist
    ideology, and how Stalin’s supporters who had fallen from grace were made to publicly confess their enmity towards the state – which was non-existent in reality – and to declare their guilt.

    But even people who are not being coerced can be subjected to methods borrowed from behavioral psychology and have their will sapped or even their personality destroyed. This was demonstrated by the campaign against dissidence waged by the Stasi (the former East German secret police), who used a scientific program developed by behavioral psychologists to “disintegrate the psyche.” The victims of these methods of psychological torture suffer of the consequences to this day.

    It has been proven that Scientology uses similar procedures (“techniques”) on the one hand to make individuals pliable and to discipline its members, and on the other hand to attack its critics, who are seen as enemies, in order to silence them and obstruct them in their activities against the organization. The damage caused by such methods – which is being investigated by human and social scientists under the heading of “mobbing” – has already made itself felt in the world of business.

    What is particularly worrisome, as it is incompatible with the democratic world order, is the fact that management trainers who believe in a Darwinistic corporate and social philosophy teach these methods to their customers in courses in order to turn them into “battle managers” ready for the “business war.”

    If a candidate is not informed as to the main or side effects of strategies that modify behavior, or, as is the case with Scientology, purposely deceived about those effects, he or she will as a rule find it hard to differentiate between normal instructional techniques and “forced instruction” or brainwashing. It is especially reprehensible when repressive
    techniques are purposely applied by the user to cause harm or accept harm as an outcome, and are disguised as “healing measures.”

    When fully unfolded, the authoritarian personality manifests the
    following features: Reacts to commands in totalitarian systems: the authoritarian personality gives orders to perform inhuman measures without feeling any scruples, or will carry such measures out on being ordered to do so for the maintenance or expansion of the system’s
    power. As a rule, he does not care whether these measures violate human rights or moral laws. He is satisfied to justify his actions by stating that they serve the system or are sanctioned by it. The authoritarian image of the human being is therefore in fundamental contradiction to the democratic one.

    Even long after leaving the organization, some of the former members who served as functionaries or were customers of the organization for many years complain of feeling cold inside and of lacking feelings. Relatives of Scientologists already note a change in their relatives’ personalities shortly after they came in contact with the organization. They describe their behavior as “coldly calculating,” “robotlike,” “mechanical,” or complain of
    “cynical” or even “sadistic” personal behavior. And even after leaving the organization15 similar behavior has been reported. Whether this attitude is the result of a neurotic illness still needs to be investigated.

    The phenomenon that most former functionaries and long-standing members have the hardest time explaining is why during their membership they considered critics of the system as true enemies, even if they were their closest relatives, and why they tried by all means to silence them as troublemakers.

    This cannot only be deduced from the development of an authoritarian personality structure. Some former members pointed out that in keeping with the system’s doctrine, they considered their own welfare, “survival,” would be in jeopardy if they broke off ties with the organization in obeyance to the wishes of their relatives.

    Creating this attitude is one of the manipulative strategies of the system, which thereby immunizes its members against incoming criticism. It’s actually a well-tried social technique repeatedly used by totalitarian regimes. The idea is to make a dogma of close ties to the regime and of its continued existence as a vital commodity necessary for survival in order to
    recruit champions and soldiers for the defense and expansion of the system.”

  442. Wayne Froemke (AKA "Safe")

    That the CofS is totally run by ruthless totalitarian methods by an ultimate dictator absurdly violates any idea of true religious community, doesn’t it?

    Perhaps that’s the biggest and most obvious CofS outpoint of all.

    Can it be any wonder why many object to this?

  443. Aaah thanks Margaret.

    While I can understand Sweeney wanting to polish up his name and repute in the eyes of the journalistic community and the producers for Panorama do the same, but Sweeney “intending to destroy” is too far fetched for me. Perhaps will hear Mr. Sweeney out at some point.

  444. Marty and the Moderators

    Potential band name there.

  445. Sweeney’s not bigoted, Erwin. Didn’t you read his article in the Sunday Times on the weekend?

    “In a free society, (Mike Rinder – ergo: independent scientologists) has a right to believe in what he wants to believe in, and a right not to be persecuted for his beliefs.”

  446. Even I can see where on the tone scale you are. 😉

  447. Wayne Froemke (AKA "Safe")

    Here’s some more, Grasshopper.

    Are TV’s allowed? If not, chalk that one up for the 1rst Dynamic

    Freedom of Internet? Nope. Inhibited 1rst Dynamic.

    Freedom of travel? Nope. Inhibited 1rst Dynamic.

    Communication with their defected family. Nope. More inhibited 2nd dynamic.

    Freedom to question authority of CofS? Nope. Inhibited 3rd dynamice.

    Pets allowed? I don’t believe so. So there’s also inhibition on the 5th dynamic.

    Respect of one’s unalienable human rights? Nope. Inhibited 7th dynamic.

    I see gobs and gobs of inhibitions going on. Clearly, this is not what one would expect from a group selling “Freedom”, is it, especially from a religious community.

    Feel free, anybody to add more. I’m tired and running out of steam but I’m sure there are more. The sum total at the end of this list could be compiled, if this hasn’t been done already. I think it would make a very awakening list.

  448. For me, this particular Panorama show was very good.

    1. This episode showed the humanity of Scientologists who have left CoS. What stood out to me was the contrast between people who are still in, such as Tommy Davis and the SO Stepford Wives, and people who have left. It is obvious to even the casual observer that active CoS members are angry, defensive, dishonest, and manipulative. It was stunning to listen to Mike and Marty narrate the Op on John Sweeney and describe how Tommy pushed his “bigot” button. When footage was shown of Tommy pushing the button over and over on John, this was proof of the manipulative and sadistic behavior in which active CoS members will engage. Tommy Davis is dishonorable, dishonest, and vicious. If Tommy Davis is what the Church of Scientology does to people, who wants that? Who wants to sign up to be a cunning, malicious thug? That is who Tommy Davis is: He is a vile Scientology hoodlum.

    2. Mike Rinder looked skeletal in 2007. He looked like someone who was in a POW camp. When Mike said, “I just couldn’t take it anymore,” his admission came from a deep and painful place in his soul. When Mike said that, I suddenly realized that RPF is in fact a POW camp whose sole purpose is to break people by starving them, sleep depriving them, and crushing them. At one of the protests I saw Wally Burgess step off a SO bus and walk into the side door of the HGB. Wally had that same skeletal, scared POW look. Had I the chance to talk to him, I am certain that Wally would have defended CoS tooth and nail.

    3. The e-meter demonstration was necessary for context. It showed straightforward auditing as a technique. In CoS, however, auditing is often “weaponized” as a tool of intimidation and control. I have used the term “Weaponized Scientology” in other places to describe the Tech as a weapon CoS uses against its own members. The BBC episode showed that
    auditing, in and of itself, does not have to be predatory.

    4. The distinction of “Independent Scientologist” was established. Also established was the category of people who left Scientology, do not practice it anymore, but believe in the right of other people to practice Scientology. These distinctions are important.

    5. Marc and Claire Headley really connected. I know Marc and Claire and think the world of them. They are brave, honest people who were both deeply harmed by CoS. Denied their day in court by a judge who was intellectually slovenly and therefore couldn’t be bothered to open up c0mplex religious questions, the brutality of David Miscavige remains a key topic in Culture relative to Scientology. OSA’s legal threats to the BBC permeated the episode to anyone who has followed the debate. The story of DM’s brutality is still very much in the public mind when it comes to the subject of Scientology.

    6. The Church of Scientology is a Cult. This fact was clear to the FDA in 1961; clear in 1971 to Paulette Cooper; clear to the FBI in 1977; clear to Matt Lauer in 2005; and it is clear to the BBC in 2010. For some reason, when the Tech and the “religious angle” are combined, abuse, greed, and criminality ensue. Scientology as “The Tech” simply does do well inside of a religious organization. While LRH built organizations and policy, I personally do not think he did a very good job of it. He cruelly underpaid and overworked his people while he and the Church became quite wealthy. He greenlighted Operation Snow White and that was illegal from the get go. LRH had the option of suing the US Government and using the media to expose Operation Cointelpro and other Ops. I cannot reconcile L. Ron Hubbard’s contradictions, and, I support the right of people to practice Scientology. If we disagree, it can be respectful. Moreover, I am always open to learning something new I don’t know.


  449. My only addition to what you say, WH, is to add a reminder that people want, above all, to see people who are genuinely being helped. We want to see happiness and success if it is genuine. We all know that people are not 100% successful all of the time, nor are we 100% happy all of the time. A sincere communication won’t ignore those realities. But, if the message is too unrealistic, we tend to dismiss it as advertising.

    There’s a bumper sticker that says “I’m a Christian under construction”. What it’s trying to communicate is – I know I don’t get it right all the time, but I think I’m headed in the right direction. (Whether it successfully communicates that I leave to you.)

    I guess I’m encouraging Indies to be “real” with people when you’re promoting your faith. No one expects perfection. Rather, a mature person is able to acknowledge their growth areas and to celebrate that they are actually growing, even if they aren’t yet where they aim to be.

  450. Had missed the article – thanks Heather.

  451. OT3 is on Wikileaks in LRH’s own handwriting.

  452. The first inaccuracy about the outerspace stuff is that it this is touted as the crux of Scientology — it is not! The depiction is understandable from one POV (point of view): it’s easier to wrap one’s mind around a cartoon in 30 seconds media time! And we all love a good laugh. And it is an easy, cheap shot at ceritfying some who would believe such a thing as nutty. Right?

    V, here’s why I think non-Scientologists will often say that OTIII is the crux of Scientology:

    1) In the Judeo-Christian religions, the book of Genesis – and particularly the first 3 chapters – form the foundation. There we learn who we are in relation to God and all of creation. There we learn who we are! We are created, not the Creator. But we alone among creation have been made “in the image of” God (Imago Dei). That means there is something about the human that is like God. Like God, we are spiritual beings. Like God, we are creative. Etc.

    When people from western cultures come at religion, it is natural for them to want the scientology equivalent of genesis. And subconsciously, the probably means they expect a STORY that answers some of the biggest quesitons. ie. Who does Scientology say we are? What does Scientology say about God?

    OTIII is a story and it is the closest thing people have seen to being Scientology’s genesis.

    2) OTIII was given power because it was made mysterious and called “the Wall of Fire”.

    3) The church did not explain what IS the crux of scientology. The boilerplate “Man is a spiritual being … (yada) … visit an org, buy a book” is really a non-explanation. It leaves a vacuum that is still not filled.

    So while OTIII does cause a lot of mirth, I do not think that those labelling it the crux of scientology do so with any ill intent. Or at least, I can see how they could very innocently reach that conclusion.

  453. Wayne Froemke (AKA "Safe")

    “In CoS, however, auditing is often “weaponized” as a tool of intimidation and control. I have used the term “Weaponized Scientology” in other places to describe the Tech as a weapon CoS uses against its own members.”

    WOW, J. Swift. Twilight Zone eerie! lol.

    I’m so amazed you brought up “weaponized scientology” (another term for Reverse Scientology) right around the same time I posted the following (below) on that very same issue! …

    German scholars published about this psych weaponry regarding Scientology. (The link to the full white paper is in the link above.)

    “Whenever such procedures are purposely used to manipulate and harm a person (see “Newspeak” in Orwell’s 1984), the science of psychology loses its quality as a therapeutic and pedagogical means of assistance and becomes nothing more than an insidious weapon.”

    The CofS is using auditing as an insidious weapon, just like the Germans’ scholarly work has been trying to tell us.

  454. lunamoth,

    What more could an abused female want?

    Do the guys also wear designer T shirts and flex their biceps? Oh my God! My heart is racing. I’m turning gay! But not openly. I’ll just remain in the closet like… like… like…

  455. Mike,

    Also, I’m betting that it’s easier to be in love with someone who’s free to express her/his personal integrity. Sure does make the world a brighter place. Can’t imagine living in a penal colony where you had to censor every thing spoken around your 2D. Lots more fun letting it all hang out and say what you feel.

    Just guessing.

  456. Margaret,

    When I left the church back in the early eighties, I was pretty happy when some media source brought up OT3 to disparage the church. It was just one of those points of ridicule that became indefensible. It put the church on its heels and could not be easily defended. Damned if you say “yes,” damned if you say, “no.”
    And then to slant the whole argument to, “see what foolishness these idiots aspire to as a higher state of consciousness! Fucking space aliens, for God’s sake! Would you really want to study that shit?”
    I was furious with the church of Scientology. Absolutely incensed that a church would have an external affairs section hell bent on destroying the lives of anyone who spoke against them. I could have cared less what the members of a church believed as long as the members don’t believe they have the right to harm or destroy another merely for the crime of exposing a truth or voicing an opinion.
    It still infuriates me.
    As it should any person interested in understanding, personal integrity, and freedom of speech.
    But, to the point, the OT3 data just has that leverage, that bit of positioning which makes the church look nutty to the average viewer. The whole thing is pretty easy to handle, as you’ve done above, but the church still hasn’t figured it out. And the media and critics won’t let it go until the church comes up with an answer.
    As you’ve demonstrated, the answer will come from the Independents, when reason is applied. Almost anyone will understand that the universe is filled with mysteries and what we’re trying to do is understand life as best we can. Sometimes, what we find doesn’t make sense at first. Like molecules and atoms comprised mostly of space made no sense when explaining something as solid as a brass goblet. How could such nonsense explain something so firm and solid and strong?
    OT3 is merely an interesting possibility, an incidental story, not a sacred belief. It’s like finding grandma fucking the milkman when you were six; the experience may have affected you, but you would be you with or without the experience.
    And Scientology would be Scientology regardless of what incidents we might or might not find in our search for truth. The incidents are about as close to being absolutely irrelevant as anything can come to being an “absolute.”
    It’s the basics that are relevant. What comprises life? And what laws apply to those elements?
    Forgive my rambling. I’m still working all this out, trying to understand, trying to assign proper importance and rearrange the furniture.
    So, I agree with you and thank you for the insights.


  457. V. I think I can just about get my teeth into that.

    The Count

  458. lunamoth,

    Sure they can: by imagining what it would be like if they were actually a member of the group the Church is pretending to be. For instance, us.

  459. Yes, more and more, recently, it takes forever for the text to show up once it’s been typed.

  460. Just Me,

    Liar, liar, pants on fire! Proselytizer Supreme!
    You’ve converted me.
    People actually caring for one another and actually communicating? The idea makes me smile, makes me happy, makes me want to go out and trust someone.

    But, how can I ever do that? Trust someone? No way!

    I’ll never forgive you for giving me hope and making me believe that the world can be wonderful and that a group can be sane.

    Now what the fuck am I supposed to do with all my guns and ammo? Who needs a world without criminals when you’ve got a twelve gauge leaning against the door?


  461. Sure – but if all it takes is to read a hand-written note to truly understand OT III and its implications, then the OT III course would just be “come in, read the note, and go home.” Of course, there is a lot more to it than that. Which is my point.

  462. OT III is one level of many. There were seventeen years between 1950 and 1967. Virtually all of Scientology was researched and released before OT III. The “crux” of Scientology, the Genesis, if you will, is in the Logics, the Factors, the Axioms, and the Theta-MEST theory from Science of Survival, not OT III.

    OT III could be considered to be a commonly shared experience for some people. While important, it is not fundamental. I spent sixteen very productive and enlightened years in Scientology before I did OT III. I had a lot of gain on OT III as mentioned above. But I got much, much more from the fundamentals I listed above than I did from OT III.

    Your point 2 above is correct – if it wasn’t under wraps, it would not be such a prize for journalists. I often wondered why the History of Man stories were not more publicized. Perhaps because it was out in the open.

    Your point 3 is very valid. I huge flaw in the church is that people will not answer questions – when they should. “What is Scientology?” “Here, read this!” “Here, read this!” is not a real answer. It is part of the answer, but not the only answer. So, naturally, when there is a vacuum of information, people will fill it with whatever they can find.

  463. Grasshopper, I handle it as I did above in response to John Peeler. Fact is, Ron went into much wilder (and very similar) stuff in the “History of Man” and various lectures. When I first read HoM, I said to myself: “seems interesting; not real to me; will address it further up the bridge”.

    Fact is, in 1995, when this was hitting the Internet, the writing was already on the wall – OT III was being broadly released and nothing could stop it — when the CoS DID try to stop it, it only put more attention on it, and simply added gas to the fire.

    The Church should have reacted completely differently — simply ignoring it in my opinion — and if questioned about it in the press, just respond by not denying it but putting the whole thing into context.

    And today, I think that is still the right response.

  464. Holy sh!t, they actually did that at ASHOF? Oh me lord… (sigh)

  465. The church rebuttal video shows the specific violations of the BBC ethics codes and Ofcom journalistic ethics codes.

    That’s what gave the church the power and leverage they needed to exert pressure on the BBC.

  466. It's me again


    As a public who recently found out what was actually going on in the church a few months ago, I thought that The Secrets of Scientology was actually good and to the point for non Scientologist and Scientologist. Pointing out too much of the insanities going on all at once might of been unbelievable to most.

    I especially like the part were you got out the e-meter and gave a demo. You did a good job and it showed that you were not in disagreement with the Technology but the insanities going on in the Church. This is a key issue for any public watching.

    The following by camera men and the rudeness by them via the church to a polite BBC commentator said it all. Anyone who is at least trained on a basic communication course and the tone scale would find the handling of the commentator as an”unappropriated” use of ARC and the Tone Scale. Then when you and Mike went over how the church uses buttons and cutting a person’s communication to get the person keyed-in then showed the videos of what was done to the commentator in the past to purposely drive him nuts with altered tech….that was priceless! The poor guy still felt bad he got out of control with Tommy in that yelling match video and at least you gave him the truth of how he was being manipulated with altered tech.

    I know that if any public saw this series, some must be wondering what is going on in their church even if it is the back of their minds. No matter what propaganda the church is putting out, the church is covertly taking away rights of people. The Creed of the Church of Scientology, you know the parts that states:

    We of the Church believe: That all men have inalienable rights to think freely, to talk freely, to write freely their own opinions and to counter or utter or write upon the opinions of others;


    We of the Church believe: That all men have inalienable rights to their own lives;

    And that no agency less than God has the power to suspend or set aside these rights, overtly or covertly.

    There are no policies or laws or people that can trumps these rights! Not in the Church or in Life.

    Marty, once again…Thank you for giving that e-meter demo with such good auditor presence. I think it made an impression on the commentator and the public watching.

  467. Just Me,

    You paint a very truthful, accurate picture of how different Scientology used to be. I especially liked your last sentence – anyone reading that would have to come away with a much better understanding of why those of us who are so loyal to the tech are so appalled by what has happened.

    My track overlaps yours and I agree with everything you say about the scene as it was during much of that time. I would only add that I spent a lot of time at Flag from 1989 to 1996, and during those years, it was also all about helping people become more able. I looked forward to every trip I took to Flag. The staff I dealt with, were some of the friendliest, most helpful, most competent people I’ve ever known (the exceptions being the ever-present reges, but I never really had much difficulty figuring out ways to avoid them).

    The services I received, whether training or auditing, were superb. I ALWAYS left Flag feeling like I’d had a “spiritual shower”, ready to tackle life from a much better place. It was a wonderful time. The slogan “The Friendliest Place in the Whole World” really meant something then – it was not just a slogan, it was the truth.

    Then in 1996, it all changed. It was like a bunch of aliens came in & took over. Kind of like those aliens in “V” if you’ve seen that show – human on the outside, reptiles on the inside. That was the end for me.

    As happy as it makes me to contemplate the growth of an independent Scientology movement, it also saddens me to think that the present church is probably beyond reform. That means no more Flag as I knew it. And what becomes of St. Hill Manor? These are to some degree MEST concerns, but there was at one time a lot of theta connected with these and other places in Scientology’s history.

    David Miscavige has so much to answer for.

  468. What he said. And there is more stuff in LRH own handwriting online.

  469. The question then becomes “What is Truth?” Because I can tell you, that during the last month of my Sec Checking before knowing I was going to blow, and planning my blow from Int, my needle was floating all over the place despite whatever question was being asked of me by RTC sec checkers. The meter did not detect the real truth in my case whatsoever.

  470. Why is it that the whole time I was in Scientology, 23 years, after reading Dianetics several times, and after reading HCOB after HCOB, trained up through Class IV, as well as just making it practically a mission of mine to study the Tech for my own interest, and listen to many LRH lectures, the research behind the discoveries was never fully provided, if at all in most cases. It’s all based on someone’s “conclusions.” So, just because LRH said “This is what I came up with in my research…” we’re supposed to accept that hook line and sinker? Not me.

    From having lived through and grown up in Scientology, and after having gotten out of the CofS, I have become a realist, and someone who asks for PROOF. I know what LRH said about people who ask for proof, but I don’t care or happen to agree with that point of view. My belief in something also comes with it, how it was made to be that way. And I’m not talking about having to know what makes a car drive before buying one. Religion is NOT even close to being in the same category, especially when you’re talking about the minds of people, the answer to spirituality and the answer to life itself.

    Yes, there are positive things and workable things in Scientology, I agree, but Scientology, just by KSW alone is sold as a whole package. It’s not a buffet religion. You can’t just pick and choose what to agree and disagree with. Maybe it started out that way but then KSW came along and brought about a whole other way things must be looked at. The Study Tech even tells you that if you disagree, or don’t understand something in Scientology, you have an MU. Fucking yawn and you have an MU. Based on what?

    Believe and have faith in whatever you want. We’re lucky to have that freedom. But if you expect the rest of the world to accept Scientology as a religion or even as a valuable subject, MOST people will want the scientific proof. No joke.

    When I was a child in Scientology, it wasn’t really considered a religion BTW. But a “religious PHILOSOPHY” based on Scientific research and studies. That it was different from other religions because you didn’t have to have “faith” in something because there was a logical and scientific explanation for everything. But as it turned out, most of Scientology’s Tech is based on what LRH concluded from his own research. It would have really been nice had those research and case studies for it been fully provided. It would have also been nice if LRH had actually been a Nuclear Physicist and Medical Doctor as touted on the cover of his “All About Radiation” too.

    Let me put it this way, even in the real world, when something is being provided as scientific proof, it can absolutely be seen as real because it is fully explained and backed up by full research as to how it IS that way. It’s fail and fool proof. Real, like gravity. We don’t have to take someone’s word for it.

    I stopped taking people’s word on anything after I left. Do I need to take Obama’s word that the new health care system is gonna work just because he and his people say so? Hell no.

  471. martyrathbun09

    Did the meter fail or the operator?

  472. martyrathbun09

    John, your post is self contradictory. First, you say you need some researcher to tell you something is or is not. Then you say you don’t listen to anyone. How do you want to leave it?

  473. what Margaret said, similar lag here.

  474. I don’t know, but those sessions were absolutely being filmed and being watched by RTC personnel, and possibly other Qual staff such as Ron Pratt. This was also during the 3 swings era, so I can only imagine that my needle was especially loose. Meanwhile thinking about my plan, that it would work and I’d soon be free. Lying through my teeth that I wanted to go back on post and get through my conditions. Not.

  475. I do listen to people Marty. But if someone is trying to SELL me something, or telling me that something is a FACT, or the truth, and that I need to believe it, I won’t just buy it at face value. At least not anymore. But, I can listen all day. Doesn’t mean I have to agree though.

  476. Grasshopper, I think your post and Wayne’s, which follows yours here, are very complementary to each other.

    You both are saying that what the CoS under Miscavigeis doing is NOT Scientology” and that is right.

    So the additional positioning we need to do is that the CoS (Church of Miscavige) is like North Korea, AND that what is being practiced by it is NOT “Scientology” – it is “Reverse Scientology” or “Black Scientology”, or “Black Dianetics”.

    This is by analogy to White Magic and Black Magic. For example, Wiccans might practice White Magic, which is intended to grant beingness and enhance livingness, promote health and ARC. The ends do NOT justify the means.

    Black Magic is the callous, unethical, and basically “selfish” use of knowledge to gain and keep power by harming, enslaving, destroying.

    Anyone can understand this distinction, it is strong in the cultures of Earth. Witness Jedi vs. Sith in the Star Wars saga.

    No-one wants to think evil really does exist, but in fact regimes like NorthKorea and much of 20th century history shows it does exist.

    It is fairly well established that the CoS is a “cult” or has strong cult-like elements.

    Perhaps what we most need to do now, in addtion to exposing those cult-like elements, is hammer on the idea that what theCoS isnow doing and practicing is NOT SCIENTOLOGY.

    They are still calling it “scientology” BUT it is NOT. It is REVERSE scientology, comparable to other abusive Black practices that are not intended to help anyone.

    We also need to keep putting it out that REAL Scientology, the “White” kind, does exist, is being freely practiced outside the CoS and is doing a lot of good.

  477. Heather — Sorry for the delay in responding to you, I have been off on other matters. The direct analogy to the Book of Genesis in Scentology is The Factors. That is the “creation story” in Scientology. It is what addresses the creation of the Universe. Mike

  478. J. Swift. I like your analysis and review. As regards Tommy Davis, I would like to see him in the the marines or somewhere where he is going to have his ass handed to him. He is obnoxiously smug and rude. He grosses me out. We all can cut a person a certain amount of slack in the line, but with him the line runs out. Even with his “how dare you” mother as part of the problem, the kid comes off like a total jerk. How in the name of G-d could this person be a spokesman for Scientology. Total absence 0f grace,charm,manners and truth. I suppose he dresses well. He was not in this recent BBC show. Wisely.

  479. Impartial English Girl

    Veritas, Michael, Just Me, etc.: Thank you to everyone who posted in response to my reply to Sarge’s post. I read all your entries carefully and they are extremely interesting – I have to say that I find myself mostly agreeing with what you have written. Thank you for your compliment Michael – I hope I do have a balanced and genuinely impartial view of most things; but only as the result of some unfortunate experiences. I’d be happy to share my stories with anyone, but I don’t want to “hijack” Mr. Rathbun’s blog with personal misery-mongering! Suffice it to say, however, that I believe that anyone’s and everyone’s beliefs should be respected – as long as the exercise of those beliefs does not involve torture, cruelty, terrorism, extortion (financial or otherwise), abuse, deprivation or bigotry. It is also clear that so many decent people – I’m thinking particularly of people like Mr. Rinder, Ms. Scobee, Mr. Rathbun, Mr. and Mrs. Headley and numerous others – are highly unlikely to have ever committed themselves to Scientology if it was originally being run along such insane and twisted lines as it obviously is now. It must have had LOTS going for it in the beginning, or it would have attracted about as much popularity as a pork-chop in a synagogue !
    Have a great weekend everyone,
    IEG xx

  480. Eileen Clark

    dfb can speak for himself quite well, but I felt like butting in here.
    Don’t know just how you came to that conclusion of:
    “But this moaning and groaning you’re doing has GOT to stop. Suck it up, man. You’re OUT. Stop thinking like you’re IN.
    “You’re free. You’re acting like those little fishies in the African lake, thinking the shadows are fishnets or prison bars. (I forget the exact facts — but you can look it up on Wikipedia or somewhere.)”

    Nothing dfb wrote was “moaning and groaning”, it was simply his view of how “freedumb” handled the rebuttal. He did not agree with it, he did not condone it, he did not say anything in support of it outside of a critical look at how this time they changed their tactic. I happen to have come to the same conclusion on my own, it IS different, that is all. It is also very true that it follows the usual pattern of disregarding truth–don’t answer the charges, misdirect attention and misrepresent the target(s).
    IMHO you were off the mark and out of line by misduplicating dfb’s communication and then slamming him.


  481. ΘTater/GaryLerner

    J.M., Damn straight and High 5s! 🙂

    Gary (Joy is in you Today…)

  482. Wayne Froemke (AKA "Safe")

    Loki wrote, “He [Tommy David] is obnoxiously smug and rude.”

    So true. Tommy so perfectly and vividly demonstrates to all that the Church of Scientology does NOT teach and lead with compassion.

    What the Church of Scientology does teach, by their many, many, many examples, is violent communication.

    I may sound like a parrot about this, but the CofS is missing the tech of nonviolent communication.

    If they really had that tech, Tommy (and DM and many others in CofS) wouldn’t act smug and rude. Instead, they would display, through their communication and actions, true empathy and a Beingness that is loved by nearly everybody.

  483. This thread has really focused my mind on these issues. I think we need to differentiate to the public as sharply as we can, that “CoS = NOT scientology, they are doing harmful behavior modification NOT auditing. Although they are falsely calling it scientology and auditing, it is not.”

    Perhaps this is a way we can start decontaminating the word and the name “Scientology”. By defining what the current CoS does as “NOT scientology”, pure and simple. This is true. What they are doing is mostly behavior modification, mind and behavior control. They are not doing “scientology” anymore. Most of the time, they are pulling a “bait and switch”. KSW needs to be applied to the CoS in terms the public can understand – that the CoS is delivering an exorbitantly priced faux product that makes a person worse, not better, in the long run, and are falsely callingit “scientology”.

    Everything the CoS claims to deliver, training and auditing-wise, is falsely named and is not scientology.

    And that real, helpful, scientology is available worldwide outside the CoS.

  484. Wayne Froemke (AKA "Safe")

    So true, DFB.

    “a known drinker” = “an alcoholic”

    A = B

    It demonstrates to me that the CofS is so desparate, that they have to resort to even this type of spin. Evil, indeed.

    Of course, that’s one very pale Orwellian overt in comparison to their mass Orwellian inculcation of minds. They are experts at this, and that’s what makes the current CofS so dangerous to civilization, without eternal vigilance.

    Whoever would have dreamed that it would be the CofS itself to try to do us in?

  485. Wayne Froemke (AKA "Safe")

    What truly amazes me (in a bad way) about CofS is that they are so expert at mind inculcation, that they can still do it right within the defenses of the subject matter that Scientology offers!

    Even WITH the access to the science of knowing-how-to-know, church Scientologists are still NOT using the data to hold themselves steady against mental inculcation (mind control).

    (Talk about mastery of the art of mental manipulation. Wow! Perhaps I could “admire” DM for that depth of ability to be evil in “secret” (to church Scientologists, anyway.)

  486. This is likely the most effective Scientology-based Documentary ever produced, regardless what ended up on the Cutting Floor. Were the BBC to be sued by RTC’s Scientology for anything in Dispute, it would also reduce Panorama’s Credibility.

    Completely unbiased, nice personal Touch … a human side to this Story and factually very informative.

    Absent were the Agendas of Anon, Shrinks, Medicos, Deprogrammers, Politicians, Schmeckperts, Vested Interest Lobbies or any other avowed Enemies of Scientology in the making of this Piece. It wasn’t against Scientology, it was Anti-Cult.

    Neither Pro nor Counter Scientology based, it got right down to the actual and factual Issues surrounding the Organization/Cult of Scientology.

    In Fact all conflicting Parties involved were Subscribers of the Scientology Technology, be it Mike, Marty, Tommy, Dave, Amy, Celebs, etc. Only the PIs and the BBC Reporter weren’t. The BBC gave Scientology Technology the Floor this Time around, and was probably the very first large-scale Scientology Cult vs. Scientology Freezone/Independent Piece. It’s historic.

    Even a few CO$ Parishioners had their Minute in the Sun to tell of their Success with Scientology.

    And how did the Church respond? By making a personal Soap Opera Circus out of it by insinuating Mike Rinder’s & John Sweeney’s Motives were based on a desperate Need of scratching each other’s Backs, making this the least effective non-factual Counter-Campaign the Church has ever delivered. Not one Thing the BBC stated was refuted, not one single Thing. This Time the Church took the low Road.

    Although I have no Love for Official Scientology, I despise any Newspiece that deals in Lies, regardless in whose favor it is. That being said, the 2007 Segment Sweeney did was pure Trash, and he well deserved the flogging he got for it from all Sides. I’m happy to see he make good with this Documentary, and enjoyed it so much I watched it 3 Times. Best Entertainment Value all around.

  487. Wayne Froemke (AKA "Safe")

    Indeed, Valkov.

    The title of BBC Panorama, “The Secrets of Scientology”, is a misnomer.

    A more apt title would be, “The Secrets of the Church of Scientology’s Mind Inculcation”.

    What CofS is naming “Scientology” is actually an imposter of authenticScientology. The CofS is truly a fraudulent squirrel group who only pretends to deliver Scientology.

    How this perpetual fraud on public is able to continue on without government intervention is beyond my scope of understanding at this moment.

    Isn’t it unlawful to sell one thing, and then deliver another in which the person isn’t aware that they’re getting a different thing than they were sold? That’s just basic!

    Perhaps Laws of commerce don’t apply to a “religion”, is that it?

    Perhaps because CofS is a “church”, and the “fixed” donations for services are just “donations”, they’re able to bypass ordinary commerce Laws.

    In other words, the CofS have apparently insulated themselves to be ABOVE THE LAW as a “church”, under the auspices of a “religion”.

    Surely, there must be an expert in Law among us who can explain how this fraud is able to continue, and what has to be done to get Justice.

    Assuming there is fraud involved (which is what I believe, IMO), how can the “church” lawfully hold the copyrights to LRH’s works?

    I really hope somebody who is an expert at this can jump in and explain what can be done. IMO, that is what is sorely needed.

    Law has teeth.

  488. I want to take the opportunity to clear the air about something.

    In part I of the the BBC program, Sweeney stated that Mike and Marty were “spearheading what they call a reformation”.

    Let me make this clear, the spearheading of the reformation of the church of scientology started in the 90’s, long before Mike and Marty came on the scene. As a matter of fact, back then, Mike and Marty were probably doing everything they could to stop the reformation. Yes, seeing which way the wind was blowing, they jumped on the bandwagon recently and are helping the cause, but that’s recently.

    Mike and Marty are doing the right thing at this point in time, but don’t think for one second that they are the pioneers in this movement.

  489. Wayne Froemke (AKA "Safe")

    The ultimate stick the CofS uses to hold over Scientologists and the rapid expansion of genuine Scientology, are their legal (not necessarily lawful) control of the copyrights of LRH works.

    It the “religious” works of LRH were freed from legal restraint, CofS would naturally dissipate as a problem for Scientologists.

    With the science freed, the natural flow of supply and demand would support the individuals and organizations getting the best results. Competition would increase results and lower prices.

    Just imagine if the Catholic church had copyrighted the Bible, and the legal trouble that would ensue.

    Because of the monopoly CofS has on the copyrights of LRH works, delivery of real Scientology has worsened (if it’s delivered at all) and prices of services are outragious, out of the range of most, because of this CofS cartel.

    With Scientology finally freed, the money spent for Scientology services will flow away from CofS into the hands of people who can do a much better job, and do it at a lower price.

    Isn’t that the way it should be?

    Of course, the CofS does NOT want this to happen. The dictators of this totalitarian group want all the money for themselves, along with the power and admiration that goes with it.

  490. Wayne Froemke (AKA "Safe")

    One other thing …

    With Scientology copyrights freed, KSW would naturally get in without any heavy-handed duress “necessary”.

    Why? Because those helping others get positive case gain would also get the business.

    Results. It’s about results. Those not keeping Scientology working wouldn’t get results, and thus would eventually stop getting the business (like what is happening to CofS now).

    So fear of a non-existant KSW if Scientology were freed, has no merit. That argument would be lame.

  491. Wayne Froemke (AKA "Safe")

    It’s me again wrote, “Anyone who is at least trained on a basic communication course and the tone scale would find the handling of the commentator as an”unappropriated” use of ARC and the Tone Scale.”

    It’s me again,

    Perfect! How utterly ridiculous it is to see supposedly trained officials in Scientology violate applying the very, very basics of Scientology!

    In addition, what’s utterly insane to me, and very sad too, is how church Scientologists seem incapable of observing the obvious.

    That should tell any trained Scientologists right there that church Scientologists are either not getting trained with authentic Scientology, or they are dopey with mental inculcation.

    Again, ARC, communication, and the Tone Scale are such basic, basic Scientology Tech!

    There is truly a huge difference between an authentic Scientologist, and a ScienDMologist.

  492. Wayne Froemke (AKA "Safe")

    atcause wrote, “the spearheading of the reformation of the church of scientology started in the 90′s, long before Mike and Marty came on the scene.”

    True. I can see how that can feel like an invalidation to those who worked so hard long before Mike and Marty arrived. I was “spearheading” (in my own way) in 1999, and that was way, way after even earlier spearheaders before me.

    What’s so special about Mike and Marty coming to the scene is that they are such widely known Church of Scientology figureheads. So they brought a lot of credible “authority” to the reformation.

    In addition, they’ve brought with them a lot of media attention, and positive PR for Independents and perhaps the first one’s to bring Scientology into light (with the E-Meter Demo) in a very, very long time.

    I’m glad you brought this up. Many of the old pioneers made huge sacrifices for the cause, which prepared what is happening now. They should definitely be remembered and held in high esteem.

  493. John Peeler wrote: “Why is it that the whole time I was in Scientology, 23 years, … the research behind the discoveries was never fully provided…?”

    Because it’s an applied philosophy not an applied science.

    With regard to KSW, please re-read RJ68 — good excerpt here:

    If you’re looking for scientific evidence to support underlying ideas in Scientology, I’d recommend Ian Stevenson, as well as the SRI research by Hal Puthoff , Russ Targ, Swann, et al. Also the modern science of epigenetics supports the early dianetics theory of cellular memory.

  494. But if you expect the rest of the world to accept Scientology as a religion or even as a valuable subject, MOST people will want the scientific proof. No joke.

    I don’t give a Shit what “The World” or any other Generality wants to accept, or who it appoints as its Inquirer.

    Very simple. I do a Scientology Session, have new Realizations about Existance, become Aware of other Aspects of Life, feel a renewed Sense of ARC and patch up my Interactions with another … so how do I send this “Scientific Proof” you yearn for to “The World”.

    If a Success Story won’t do, what else would you be looking for?
    Good Indicators, F/N, Cognition … what?
    Maybe a higher level of Integrity as reported by others?
    Calmer, more rational responses in handling problems as noted by Wife?

    Scientific Proof using what Tools? Scopes, Probes, Blood Tests?

    If this “World” wants Proof, then it has to name the Tools that can either scientifically prove or disprove Scientology, or accept what is evidenced by the Testimony of the benefiting Participant of its Practices.

    But then the “Scientific Proof” Crowd really … deep down inside … is really trying to do nothing other than inconspicuously invalidate the Subject.

    Needs a KF for the Trolls.

  495. Thanks, Margaret. Yes, I agree. I would never deny it. It is a stupid thing to do.

    By the way, the whole subject of entities and beings is not at all new. Christ made a habit of driving demons out of people. There is the famous incident where the crazy man with hundreds of demons came up to Jesus, and the demons asked to be cast out by Him, and put into a herd of swine. Jesus did, and the whole herd ran down into a lake and drowned. The man the demons were inhabiting became sane spread the Good News. The bible is full of stories like this.

    It isn’t only Christians, either – The old testament has as many demons as the new. There are demons everywhere!

    Not that OT III has to do with demons, just that there are some parallels.

    Here is a question for Scientologists and all those that believe in Past Lives to consider, while I am on the subject:

    There are six billion people on Earth. About 50,000 years ago, there were only 25 thousand people on Earth. How can we all have lived before on this planet? Where did the 5.99 billion other beings come from?

    A point to ponder!

    I have theories.

  496. They did – alas.

  497. Yes, Valkov. It does sound disingenuous, I know, but it is true. “THEY are doing BLACK Scientology! WE are doing it RIGHT!” Sounds like a lot of Christian sects arguing over who are the real Christians. I don’t like that this has happened to Scientology. It is hard enough dealing with people who ridicule the subject without having to deal with this schism.

    But, the reality is that we have an out of control narcissist running the Church, and that many Scientologists have had their values warped by thinking their own skins are more important than their loved-ones.

    I would die for my children. I would die for my wife. I would willingly do that if it came down to it. I think it was Stephen Covey who posited that if you want to find out who and what you really care about, imagine a tight rope between the two twin towers (obviously pre 9/11!). If the only way to save someone or something was for you to go across the wire between the buildings, who or what would you do it for? Answer that seriously, and you have what you really care about.

    If you would jettison your family just to get a crack at OT VIII or IX, what kind of person are you? How incredibly self-centered is that? The Church is basically saying that it is right and good that you should walk across the crushed skulls of your friends and family to get to some elusive OT level, to indulge in an orgy of “ME!”

    Sorry, the road to Truth does not lead that way!

    People are more important than any idea that ever existed.

  498. Wayne Froemke (AKA "Safe")

    Personally, I’m more comfortable with defining Scientology as either …

    1) the “science of certainty”

    “In Issue 16-G, which may be a bit delayed, I am laying out this whole subject of Scientology as “Science of Certainty.” Scientology deals now in nothing but certainties. Those things which are uncertainties, such as metaphysics, spirits, other
    worlds, space opera, whole track, GE Line, are all being put into the bin called para-Scientology. The auditing we do is directed towards the establishment of certainties, and in itself works only with certainties. Prenatals, engrams and facsimiles—anything which anybody would consider uncertain does not belong on the main line.”

    – P . A . B . N o . 2

    And in T H E J O U R N A L O F
    Issue 16-G [1953, ca. mid-June]
    Published by
    The Hubbard Association of Scientologists, Inc.
    Philadelphia, Pennsylvania
    This is Scientology
    The Science of Certainty

    There are 41 entries in LRH’s works referring to Scientology as the “Science of Certainty.”

    2) “the science of knowing how to know”

    Scientology is defined as these exact words (above) in …

    A New Slant On Life
    Creation of Human Ability
    Scientology 8-8OO8
    Technical Dictionary
    Red Vol 1950-1953
    Red Vol 1954-1956
    Red Vol 1957-1959
    Red Vol Index

    The actual definition of Scientology used when LRH was alive is:

    SCIENTOLOGY, 1. it is formed from the Latin word scio, which means know or distinguish, being related to the word scindo, which means cleave. (Thus, the idea of differentiation is strongly implied.) It is formed from the Greek word logos, which means THE WORD, or OUTWARD FORM BY WHICH THE INWARD THOUGHT IS EXPRESSED AND MADE KNOWN: also THE INWARD THOUGHT or REASON ITSELF. Thus, SCIENTOLOGY means KNOWING ABOUT KNOWING, or SCIENCE OF KNOWLEDGE. (Scn 8-80, p. 8) 2 . S c i e n t o l o g y addresses the thetan. Scientology is used to increase spiritual freedom, intelligence, ability, and to produce immortality. (HCOB 22 Apr 69) 3 . an organized body of scientific research knowledge concerning life, life sources and the mind and includes practices that improve the intelligence, state and conduct of persons. (HCOB 9 Jul 59) 4 . a religious
    philosophy in its highest meaning as it brings man to total freedom and truth. (HCOB 18 Apr 67) 5 . the science of knowing how to know answers. It is a wisdom in the tradition of ten thousand years of search in Asia and Western civilization. It is the science of human affairs which treats the livingness and
    beingness of man, and demonstrates to him a pathway to greater freedom. (COHA, p. 9) 6 . an organization of the pertinencies which are mutually held true by all men in all times, and the development of technologies which demonstrate
    the existence of new phenomena not hitherto known, which are useful in creating states of beingness considered more desireable by man. (COHA, p. 9) 7 . the science of knowing how to know. It is the science of knowing sciences. It seeks
    to embrace the sciences and humanities as a clarification of knowledge itself. Into all these things—biology, physics, psychology and life itself—the skills of Scientoloa can bring order and simplification. (Scn 8-8008, p. 11) 8 . the study
    of the human spirit in its relationship to the physical universe and its living forms. (Abil 146) 9 . a science of life. It is the one thing senior to life because it handles all the factors of life. It contains the data necessary to live as a free being. A reality in Scientoloa is a reality on life. (Aud 27 UK) 1 0 . a body of knowledge which, when properly used, gives freedom and truth to the individual. (COHA, p. 251) 11. Scientoloa is an organized body of scientific research knowledge concerning life, life sources and the mind and includes practices that improve the
    intelligence, state and conduct of persons. (Abil Mi 104) 1 2 . knowledge and its application in the conquest of the material universe. (HCL 1, 5203CM03A) 1 3 . an applied philosophy designed and developed to make the able more able. In this
    sphere it is tremendously successful. (HCO PL 27 Oct 64) 1 4 . an applied religious philosophy dealing with the study of knowledge, which through the application of its technology, can bring about desirable changes in the conditions
    of life. (HCO PL 15 Apr 71R)

    – Dianetics and Scientology Technical Dictionary(Unsquirrelled version used when Ron was alive)

  499. atcause, your right that there were and are many others who have left the church and in various ways have been battling it over the years. Keep in mind it was the BBC highlighting Mike and Marty for presentation purposes, not Mike and Marty themselves. No horns were being blown. And I am sure each of them only wishes that they knew back then what they know now. Don’t we all.

  500. Wayne Froemke (AKA "Safe")

    Grasshopper wrote, “But, the reality is that we have an out of control narcissist running the Church”


    You are so way too nice in your understatement of DM.

    May I have the liberty to beef up the sentence a bit? 🙂

    “Fully Loaded” version

    We have an out-of-control, narcissistic “mother of all squirrels”, malevolent little-man dictator monopolizing Scientology.

    Thank you. I feel better now. 😉

  501. Agreed – completely!

  502. Grasshopper, I agree.

    That’s why I feel we need to sharply differentiate, label and identify what the CoS does as “behavior modification” and “mind control”, to avoid getting into that “we are doing it right, they are doing it wrong” scenario. They ought not be referred to as doing any kind of “scientology” at all, because they are not.

    We need to clearly state not that they are doing it wrong, but that they are not doing it AT ALL. They are calling it “scientology” but are actually doing something else entirely.

    That is in fact what all the posts on these blogs and sites are about, but they are couched in technical language that wouldn’t communicate to the non-technical publics.

    We need to learn to communicate the facts in a non-technical way. that’s what I’m proposing.

    The public obviously would not be into all the fine points of how GAT altered the tech etc. They would go to sleep on explanations of that.

    But there are enough highly trained people who have left/been purged/driven out of the official CoS for Independents to publicly take a position such as I am suggesting:

    “We left because the CoS is no longer doing Scientology at all. They are doing mind control and behavior modification to make money and that’s all .”

    I think the BBC show is a good step in that direction.

    We do want to avoid the “sect vs.sect” perception. I don’t know if it is entirely avoidable. I believe the best way to do that is not even grant the CoS the beingness of a “sect” of Scientology. They are not even a sect of Scientology. They are a scam. They appropriated the “Scientology” name and are doing a “bait and switch” by doing behavior modification and mind control instead of Scientology.

    The idea of a “Reformation” is good. By analogy, the CoS is all about “selling indulgences”, ie, all about money and power, just as the Catholic Church was then, when Martin Luther took action. But how many people even know or care what the Reformation was?

    I’m talking about how do we communicate with the average non-scientologist person? How do we say, “I’m a Scientologist.” ?

    Inevitably, we’ll get back “Ewww! You’re one of THEM!!!!?”. So how do we say “No, I’m not one of them. I am a Scientologist. They are not Scientologists. They are a brainwashing cult pretending to be Scientologists.”

    That’s the issue I’m struggling with. I’m guessing there are many others in this same boat with me.

    It is related to the issue of what to say to folks I know who are still in the CoS. I am about to the point of bluntly saying I believe the CoS is a squirrel group. Turn about is fair play. The CoS “party line” reminds me of the old saw about Soviet Union – you could always tell what they were up to, by what they accused other countries of doing.

    Well, “I’m made of rubber, you’re made of glue, everything you(the CoS) say bounces off of me (the Independents) and sticks to you”, is pretty much how I see it. Why not simply reverse the flow, is what I am asking myself.

    Is it time to start turning the tide? Is it time for an OT Committee of Independents to call another Comm Ev of David Musthavage? All the charges of the one held in 1984 are still valid, and many more by now.

    Are we getting near the point of nailing the Ethics Orders up on the Church’s doors?

  503. Wayne Froemke (AKA "Safe")

    Valkov wrote, “Are we getting near the point of nailing the Ethics Orders up on the Church’s doors?”

    LOL. You’re awesome, Valkov!

  504. Let me make this clear, the spearheading of the reformation of the church of scientology started in the 90s, long before Mike and Marty came on the scene.

    “Spearheading” implies the driving force in a given action, endeavor, or movement. (It does not connotate Origin or Sequence)

    “Pioneers” implies “One who opens up new areas of thought, research, or development.” (It does not connotate any driving Forces or Movement)

    You are confusing these Definitions. More correctly, Mike & Marty are among others also “Spearheading” the Reformation. One might also add far more effectively than any previous Efforts.

  505. “What’s so special about Mike and Marty coming to the scene is that they are such widely known Church of Scientology figureheads.”

    I understand what you are saying but that wasn’t the point of my comment. The point was to set the record straight Mike and Marty are not and never have been spear headers of the reformation of the church of scientology. If anything, the fact that former figureheads of the church are joining the reformation is a sign of the success of the reformation of the church that began years earlier.

    If there is anything that really set in motion the reformation of the church of scientology its the coming of the Internet to the public in 1993. This allowed free communication on the subject of Scientology and the church of scientology. The same means of communication that Mike and Marty are using now to further the reformation.

  506. Wayne Froemke (AKA "Safe")

    atcause wrote, “If there is anything that really set in motion the reformation of the church of scientology its the coming of the Internet to the public in 1993. This allowed free communication on the subject of Scientology and the church of scientology.”

    So true! The Internet has allowed unfettered Free Speech about the Truth of the CofS, and an easy and cheap media to allow millions to view.

    Thank God for the Internet and Free Speech! Without Free Speech, no political action is possible, and no resistance to injustice and oppression is possible.

    Too bad the despot of the totalitarian CofS doesn’t see it that way.

  507. Valkov, I agree. Actually, the best policy is just to do it right and thrive. We have been pointing out the outpoints of the Church. The fact that we are using Scientology to condemn the CofM is very telling.

  508. It’s a big universe, and not necessarily the only universe, either. Also, since a being basically has no mass or dimensionality in the sense of being measureable, beings, like the angels, could fit on the head of a pin in infinite numbers.

    If the MEST universe is indeed infinite as some scientists postulate, that means there can be an infinite number ofEarths and an infinite number of any and all planets existing in it. Thus there would be no lackof locations for beings to have lived lives, past or otherwise, or to live them in the future.

    Infinity and infinite are quite some concept.

    As there could actually be an infinite number of infinite universes accessible to a thetan, there is no scarcity at all of places where thetans could have lived before.

  509. John,

    In at least one LRH lecture I listened to a few months ago, from 1953 I believe, LRH publicly stated absolutely anyone was welcome to take the available materials and test them to their hearts content. Anyone. Doctors, psychologists, physicists, University researchers, scientists, etc etc.

    He commented that as far as he knew no-one had taken that up.

    But I suspect some did that, and we just didn’t hear about it.
    The research we have heard about was done by government agencies who were interested in “defense’ applications. They would be just as likely to publicly say “Naw, there’s nothing to it.”

    It would be the same for psychiatrists, for example. There is no other group than medical doctors, as likely to incorporate a useful technique like dianetics into their own practices, and then attempt to stamp out anyone else using it. I t’s al labout market share, in their case. This is perfectly well documented, as in the AMA’s decades long attempt to suppress Chiropractors, which finally stopped when they were sued in Federal court and lost.

    So Doctors would also likely say “Naw, move along. There’s nothing here to see”, even as they incorporated some of the ideas and methods into their own practices. Because maximum profits are tied to monopolize a market and be the “go to” practitioners.

    The fact is, it would not be easy to find a truly disinterested and objective group of academics or researchers to run studies and do tests.

    As with many other things, with auditing and training, “the proof of the pudding is in the eating.”

    If it doesn’t taste good to you, pass on it and order something else.

  510. Are not lies also in the mind of the being? So what are you trying to say? Is my conceptual understanding of an idea in scientology “verbal tech” if I express it verbally?

    That is in fact the road the CoS has gone, isn’t it? Staff are forbidden by DM from talking to new public about Scientology, ostensibly because he’s afraid of staff messing up by spreading verbal tech and misunderstandings. He wants them to just route new people over to watch the videos.

    What a joke! Scientologists forbidden to communicate about their religion and fearing to say anything because they might be busted for “verbal tech”! Where is that on that CDEI scale?

    My guess is it was referred to as a “truth detector” by LRH on the Class VIII course, perhaps in an offhand remark? How else would I have heard it mentioned in a casual remark from a Class VIII in 1971? Actually he might have mentioned it in any of his lectures, Class VIII or not.

  511. I hear you, Grasshopper. It must be frustrating.

    The point I was making is demonstrated in that the axioms just don’t seem to fit the bill if you’re looking for a genesis story. Too abstract.

    As a separate issue, nobody is out there telling the world that here in the Axioms, Factors, etc is the crux of Scientology (my point 3, which you acknowledged).

  512. martyrathbun09

    Heather, you wrote:

    “As a separate issue, nobody is out there telling the world that here in the Axioms, Factors, etc is the crux of Scientology \”

    I believe that is more than “an” issue. I believe it is THE issue. Good point.

  513. Hi Mike,

    The Factors remind me more of John Chapter 1 than Genesis Chapter 1. John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.” (Word is a reference to Jesus.)

    Except that even John 1 is talking about an actual person, so it is less abstract than the Factors.

    I hear what you and Grasshopper are saying. For both of you, those writings are the crux of Scientology or the genesis equivalent. I’m just saying that coming from a Christian background myself, I can see how OTIII would MEET THE EXPECTATIONS of a person from outside Scientology. Not saying those expectations are reasonable. But they aren’t necessarily malevolent. That is all.

  514. Ithink that this new documentary was far more successful than the previous one as it certainly benefited from yours and Mike Rinders collaboration, it was also great to see scientologists who were no longer part of the church. It certainly gave a great angle!

  515. Dear Marty and Mike

    Thanks for having stand up and spoken straight and clearly what is going on in the church! For showing what the OSA really does.

    Thanks for clearly pointing out the suppression and still standing to Scientology as a philosophy and religion – what is very rarely. Most often the baby is thrown out with the bath water.

    It is another milestone time track of the Free Zone!


    Max Hauri
    Ron’s Org Committee

  516. Thanks for your courage to speak up about what you witnessed and were a participant of during your days with CofS. I was creeped out by seeing how much intimidation was being used to silence your voice now that you are speaking out. It would scare me into silence I’m pretty sure, so thanks for being a voice for those who are afraid to or can’t or won’t speak.

  517. I don’t see how this cult is any different from other cults out there, Xianity, some forms of Judaism, some forms of Islam (Jihadism, for sure). What I don’t see is any danger in this cult, scientology – they aren’t killing people or defectors, or detractors. They don’t have suicide bombers or any of the things the other 3 bigger religious have. I don’t see how it’s dangerous at all. So they interrupt the guy when he talks. Sheesh. So they follow him (their dime for the gas). SO WHAT? Are they shooting bullets at him? Xianity, some forms of it, are seriously dangeorus in that it causes real repression and neurosis. Going against the “cult of pro Israel” CAN be dangeorus to your health and job and career, too. Going against Islam can get you killed. I don’t hear ANY of that happening with scientology. And no, I’m not a member of that or any other religious cult. I’m not the type of personality to join stuff like that where nothing for ME to gain up front is there. Take the Moose Club. You GET quite a bit for your 20 bucks a year, especially if you want to go to a club where there is a band and dancing, food, drinks, etc. That kind of thing I’d join.

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