Kay Proctor Does The Texas Two-Step

The book “Cowboy Dances” (1939) talks of this Texas trademark, “The real two-step should be smooth and beautiful to watch.”   Take a look at the way Kay does it – real straight-ahead, dignified, and with a pleasing tempo.  Welcome home Kay!

Dear Friends,

HCO PL 4 March 1965 : Reserved Payment Account

OEC Vol 3, p. 315: Purpose of the Reserved Payment Account: To prevent a false idea of the financial position of the org from occurring by providing a place where money awaiting disbursement can be placed before it is actually paid out, thus removing it from the general accounts and estimates of financial position of the org.

OEC Vol 3, p. 316: Savings: When the org desires to buy something big or expensive, it should not use time payments, hire, purchase or mortgages. It should start putting money into the Reserved Payment Account and, when the full sum is there, buy the item for cash, using the fact to obtain a good, big discount. While the Building Fund on building purchases is also intended to help buy buildings outright, there is nothing wrong with also depositing available amounts of the disbursement sum in the Reserved Payment Account to help out.


HCO PL 18 Jan 1965:  Financial Management Building Fund Account

OEC Vol 3, p. 42: The primary purpose is to provide a cushion by which an organization which is becoming insolvent may be salvaged.  The secondary purpose of the Building Fund is to purchase property, but when this is done, the purchase must be for cash or, if any mortgage is involved, all further payments than the initial payment must be made from expense sum.


OEC Vol 3, p. 247: HCO PL 28 Jan 1965: How to Maintain Credit Standing and Solvency

The secret to solvency is:

1. Make a lot of money.

2. Spend less than you make.

3. Make it before you spend it.

4. Gather bit by bit a cushion of cash to fall back on and don’t ever fall back on it.

5. Keep your credit excellent as a second cushion.

6. Refuse to spend reserves


These basic LRH policy letters on finance plus the many others contained in Volume 3, give a perfect roadmap for expanding any org, whether the local org in your local sphere or the upper level orgs in Int’l Management. Clearly there is an abandonment of LRH finance policy, witnessed by the Ideal Org fund raising program, which is off- policy and not to be found in any LRH policy. With off-policy as the current operating basis from COB, David Miscavige, I have no choice but to withdraw my allegiance to the Church of Scientology as I can no longer support anything but pure LRH.

To give one a little history. I found Scientology in 1984. I was living in Tyler, Texas and my sister-in-law had just been introduced to the subject and had done Life Repair. I could tell from talking to her on the phone that she was different.  At that time, life had kicked me in the teeth enough times and I was looking for answers. I asked how much money I needed and I was told around $2,500. I was a single woman at the time, teaching school and had no resources. I went around to 3 banks, asking for an unsecured loan and when they all turned me down, I then lied and said I needed money for my daughter who needed health care. That was the magic ticket and I left with a loan for $3,000, getting just a little extra in case I wanted to do a course.

I purchased the Dianetics book and then I took off for Dallas to the Mission of the Southwest, there on Mandeville Road, off Central Expressway.

I paid for Life Repair and cleared words while in session, as I had no prior information about this subject. My life turned on a dime, and I handled a long-term situation with my father. I was really happy for the first time.

I returned to Tyler, taught school and one day while mowing my lawn, I decided that I wanted to go Clear. I called my ex sister-in-law (we had both since divorced the boys) and I moved in with her, quit teaching, had no idea where I’d work or what I’d do, but I knew I wanted to go Clear.

Shortly thereafter I joined staff and was the PCS in Div. 6 for a 2-1/2 year contract. During that time we had highest ever statistics with new public and the org was booming.

Not to bore anyone with the full story, suffice it to say, that I have worked totally in an environment with fellow Scientologist since 1984, and have been dedicated and very engaged in my Church.

In 1987, I regged Jay Proctor for staff as well as my 2D and from that point forward, we both loved and used LRH policy to navigate our marriage and the raising of our son, who was delivered by standard LRH birthing policies in our home with a mid-wife. In October 2009, Jay dropped his body, with a full LRH Last C/S, surrounded by OTs. We applied LRH tech to our everyday life.

LRH tech was the glue for our life, as there is no situation that we were unable to handle using the tech.  In the 1980’s – early 1990’s, it was fun being a Scientologist and a staff member, even though we worked very long hours. We had community activities, we played the Birthday Game for blood, we had great parties at the org on Friday nights, both public and staff included. We had church picnics and a real sense of family.

In 2001, shortly after September 11th, my mother dropped her body and my OT levels had been paid for some time. I arrived at AOLA and began, going straight through from R6EW to OT V, completing in September 2002.

All along the way, I saw more and more outpoints. And now, to see our church be so off the rails with regards to finance policy deeply saddens me. LRH provided all of us with this beautiful tech, and it is being misapplied by Chairman of the Board, David Miscavige.

This is unconscionable for me.

Whether any of these outpoints are true for you, you have to determine that. But, outside of the Ideal Org program, here are some additional outpoints I began to observe:

1.       For many years, at major events, none of the usual Int’l Management Executives shared the stage with COB as they formerly had been. They used to be part of every program.

2.       There is a distinct upper strata structure that LRH laid out to provide checks and balances within the organization, which would include these International Executives. Where are they?

3.       Has RTC (Religious Technology Center), Church of Scientology Int’l (CSI) and Church of Spiritual Technology (CST) been un-mocked and collapsed? Is David Miscavige chairing them all?  http://www.savescientology.com/

4.       Heber Jentzch, the President of the Church of Scientology. Where is he? He had not been seen in many years, and he has to be nearing 75 years in age. He didn’t die, so where is he?

5.       Saint Hill-size orgs were popular in the 1990’s which provided for orgs to build their staff and public ranks to the size of Saint Hill Org in the UK. ASHO in Los Angeles achieved this status for a brief segment in time in the late 90’s. What happened with this program? And why was it disbanded?

6.       I noticed there aren’t Class VIII auditors produced as before? Why?

7.       I was at Flag in the mid 90’s and at that time, there were several Class XII auditors that LRH trained. I can’t find any of them now. Where are they?

If any of this has resonated in any way with you, please check for yourself some of the key stats in your local org. Observe them for yourself on the OIC board – which is the stat board that HCO keeps posted in plain view or should.

1.       NNCF – New Names to Central Files. These come from Books sold to new people or new people arriving for first service at a mission or org.

2.       BIS – Bodies in the shop. This would be of interest with regards to both Division 6 (new people) as well as Division 2 (returning public).

Observe for yourself and if these stats are up trending in your org? And if the #’s are sufficient for viability?

To ensure survival, LRH finance policy must be applied and applied standardly. This means monies come from a well-oiled operational org that delivers services in such abundance, making more money than the org can waste.  These abundances are channeled into the Reserves Accounts and the Building Fund account.

Then when repairs are needed for everyday operations OR a new phase of expansion, which could include renovations to the existing structure or a new structure, the monies are available, as there has been complete adherence to proper finance policy along the way, thus ensuring  the infrastructure is in place to facilitate the expansion. LRH gave us the tech and the road map to ensure stability both in terms of monies, structure, staff and public.  When followed, true expansion occurs and all is stable.

However, the caveat is that orgs take orders from International Management. Now, that is a single individual – David Miscavige.

Please “Look, don’t listen”.  Whether your reality is similar to mine or light-years different – from this point forward, I invite you to look closer.  Check out things further – allow no carte blanche acceptance.

In no way am I discrediting all the wonderful Scientologists, both staff and public that I have come to know along the way — some incredibly lovely people that I love dearly, including the staff members who devote their lives to this cause.  

But under the current leader, we have lost LRH’s Church to “Miscavige’s Church”. It is no longer the LRH that we once knew and loved, and therefore, I cannot continue to show support.

Recently, on national television, Tommy Davis, the Church’s spokesperson, said that it was false that the church’s policy was that you had to give up your friends if you chose to leave the church.

You now have that choice. I will always keep my comm lines open to any of you who wish to call me that cherished word, friend.

My decision is made. Please respect and grant beingness. It is my wish that each of us flourish and prosper. That is my plan, and I will be moving along with the correct application of the LRH conditions to achieve that.

Love and warm wishes,


OT V, IAS Honor Roll

Austin TX 

261 responses to “Kay Proctor Does The Texas Two-Step

  1. Freedom Fighter

    Oh, hell yeah!! I must say I am not surprised and very pleased! Kay, ask Marty to send you my e-mail address. I’m not sure I have your most current one and would like to get back in touch.

  2. Impartial English Girl

    What a brave, honest, – and completely reasonable, believable – post. I have nothing but respect and admiration for Kay. Scientology or no Scientology, she is a credit and fine example to all women wishing to assert themselves – wherever they may be.

    Thank you for sharing. Good luck for your future life Kay – I hope you go on to do lots of lovely and fulfilling things. Wish I was just half the woman you clearly are.

    Have a good weekend everyone.
    Much love,
    IEG xx

  3. Kay, welcome! That letter of yours is so sane. So simple and straightforward. Look, don’t listen. Decide for yourself.

    Just Me

  4. Kay!!!!!!!! So glad to see your smiling face on this blog. Made me whoop and holler! Big hug and kiss for you my dear, we must chat soon.

    Linda McGinley

  5. Pingback: Tweets that mention Kay Proctor Does The Texas Two-Step | Moving On Up a Little Higher -- Topsy.com

  6. Hello Kay! Terrific statement; specific, heartfelt and encouraging. Woop-de-doo-dang!

  7. Kay,

    Very happy for you. Thank you for being such a demonstration of the Texas spirit and love of freedom. Your courage in speaking out publicly will help other who are seeing the outpoints and have not yet shed the cloak of suppression. You have done a good deed. You will find a new circle of very caring friends in this community.

    Enjoy your bright and shiny new future.

    Much love, Yvonne & Ken

  8. That was a modern day, Scientological “Gettysburg Address”.

    If I was a sculptor, I would chisel that letter in a marble wall, directly across the road from DM’s “Domus Aurea”.* It would be a nice reminder for him when he seeks reasons for his dwindling empire.

    VWD, Kay.


    *The Domus Aurea, or Golden House, was a large, expensive and extravagent estate built by the emperor Nero on land reclaimed after the great fire of 64AD. Nero was driven from his office only a few months after the house was complete, and was forced to open his neck after the Senate declared him an enemy of the state. (Sounds like the precursor to the Idle Org policy)

  9. My email address is txcountrydancer@gmail.com. At this time, I would so much love to hear from some of you and put real names with your posts.

    Much thanks on the validations. I am happy too. Very happy indeed.

  10. Welcome to you Kay.

    One thing we can never have enough of in our circle is Texans!

  11. Kay,
    I applaud your stand for integrity and what you find to be true. That is what LRH expects of all of us. Welcome to the group of honest beings.

  12. Great write up Kay!

    Along these lines. I just got a piece of bulk FSO promo that in and of itself, is a High Crime/Suppressive Act.

    “6 Intensives will get you through ALL the grades at Flag!”

  13. Kathy Braceland

    A big warm welcoming hug to you Kay!

  14. Thank you for the heartfelt and eloquent letter.

    The truth will set us all free, into the spirit of play, into a high ARC with life, such as you have obviously achieved.

  15. Congratulations Kay.

  16. Kay!!!! I believe we were room mates at the Serenity House around 2002!

    Take a look at my husband & I declaration of Independance if you haven’t seen it already. I’m sure you will recognize me.

    I have thought of you often & wondered how things were going for you. So glad to see you here. I will email you directly in the next few days. In the mean time, welcome to the sunlight! Sending you big hugs from Seattle,


  17. Eloquent, honest, forthright, certain. Your letter is inspiring in its truth!

    PS to Miscavologists: Noticing outpoints, pointing them out and doing something about them is NOT entheta or an “enemy line.”

  18. I’m so pleased to see that people are looking and seeing things for what they are. This gives all of the honest staff that are still stuck under the current mgmnt hope. It is a huge risk that is taken when you follow what is true for you but one that pays off in spades.

    I do not know you Kay but you have my full support in all of your future actions. Great job on working through all of this and staying true to your reality.


  19. Great to have you out Kay Proctor, Hope you connect up with a lot of old and new friends.

  20. Whoo hooo! I knew that was you & I was so happy!
    Still living in Sacramento? Send me a private email & let’s chat.

  21. Independent Scientologist

    I’ve heard a worse tech degrade than that.

    When I was still on lines at AOLA last summer, two different FLAG service consultants bragged that FLAG could get in a completely raw public and send them home with their Solo NOTs materials in nine months.

    I’ll bet that person would be a real product!

    – Ron Matlock

  22. Welcome Kay!

    I will gladly take a Texas Tw0-Step over the Texas “Side-Step”.

  23. Kay,

    a friendly welcome to you from Germany !

    You tell it like it is – and the policies you quote have existed since decades. And they have been studied by many executives and all finance personell. So you don’t ask too much when demanding them to be applied !

  24. Welcome Kay, what a beautiful story and what a beautiful being you are.
    Very well done Kay. Your story will help others to look and find the truth.

    Love Carol

  25. I beg to differ, being conscious or holding any kind of position in space is very enturbulating to Mestcavologists. Writing reports, being aware and in communication with others and being unafraid of saying the wrong thing – that enters the realm of Scientology.

  26. Kay, Congratulations and very well done on SEEING the truth and ACTING on the truth. Gee? Who would have thought posting HCO PL’s on the internet as a reason for leaving the COS would ever be contraversial? And yet, here we are.

    Sorry I never got to meet you, but I was in Austin in 1990 and in 1995 when I came back from FEBC training in LA. When I got back to Austin, the out-points were so blinding! Left shortly thereafter. Where there was once an unworkable mass, there are soon going to be more and more people like yourself… just might bring life to Austin yet!

    If not, at least we’re in Texas! Doesn’t get much better than that! Even Marty learned the error of his ways and relocated to Casablanca Tejas!! 😉

    Anyhow, wishing you the best! Welcome to the Independents!
    John Boswell
    Midland, TX

  27. Scott Campbell

    Hi Kay,

    Welcome and well done on coming out! I was impressed with your comprehensive yet concise write up and your refreshing take on applicable LRH references for Org viability from a financial management point of view.

    I also like the excellent and fundamental questions you ask regarding observed outpoints. Anyone who asks these questions will also find the outpoints. Noting the source of the outpoints and counting ’em up will have the why and the who in short order.

    Here’s to you, Kay!

  28. Welcome to freedom Kay,
    For sure you’ll soon get lots of friends, real ones this time. Wonderful write up and great courage. I love to read wins like this; yet another piece of suppression lifted, making it that much safer for mankind. Do well!

  29. Yeah Kay! Great to have you aboard!

  30. Thanks Marty for the warm introduction. I am the consummate Texas Two-Stepper, so any of you Independents wanna take a spin around the dance floor, we can do that — as in today, tonight, soon!

    Just your lovely OT perception of me. I take such a win that I sent that message to you on a theta wave & you GOT it.

    I think I may be in love with this group already!


  31. Fellow Traveller

    Most pleased to be makin’ yur acquaintence, Ms Kay and a hearty welcome here, Ms Operatin’ Texan!

    I wholeheartedly agree with Mike that we cannot have too many Texans, ‘specially the OPERATIN’ kind, in our group.

    Bruce Pratt

  32. Scott Campbell

    The sweet country sound of an ‘ol Dobro.

  33. Thanks Scott. I thought about what was a position that no one dispute, if they had a flipping clue. They should see the finance policies being abused…and duh…. they should see that the Int Execs are MIA….wtf is up with their eye sight. They should realize that Heber has not been seen in years. Hello, is anybody home? And auditors — whew! they are NOT happening in the current regime.

    I was hoping to put ‘no brainer’ things that even if you were deaf, dumb & blind, you could say– somethin’ just ain’t right here. The big duh……

    Then as a former staff member, just check some internal stats. Go LOOK! For goodness sakes, you know viability isn’t happening either, if you just look around. Would you run a business this way?

    I am postulating that I impact a few more to get the heck outta dodge. That’s my story & I am definitely sticking to it.

  34. Each person who comes out and identifies themselves with their real name is a HUGE blow to the corruption that is the CoS today.

    IMO, rank-and-file, dyed-in-the-wool staunch advocates for real Scientology, like Kay, have a greater impact than magazine articles or rumored law enforcement interventions.

    By this act of courage, Kay is setting an example for ALL fence-sitters and by-standers in this struggle.

    Here’s an idea. The next time you get a call from an Org about some event or pressure to do this or do that…tell them “not til David Miscavige is gone”.

    Try it. I did and it feels great!

    Welcome Kay!

  35. Welcome Kay!

    Loved your write-up! I like the way you think and as a being you are very real to me. Thank you for including your thoughts on all of the staff who do have good intentions. There are so many good people still inside the church. Every day that someone wakes up and looks for themselves is a good day! Hoping that more will be joining us soon.

  36. Michael Fairman

    Dear Kay
    I join in the chorus of voices welcoming you to freedom. Truth to power, Texas Lil’ Darlin’, truth to power.

  37. Tony DePhillips

    Very well done Kay.
    My wife tells me good things about you.
    You Texans are sure “representin”.
    Thanks for your courage.

  38. Texas is becoming for US (Independent) Scientologists what Italy used to be for Scientology worldwide 🙂

  39. Welcome Kay. Your accounts of your early days on staff rehabbed me. It was definitely more fun than a person should be allowed to have. I loved it just as you did. Thank you for reminding me.

    Thank you for Keeping Scientology Working.

    Love, Tom Martiniano

  40. martyrathbun09

    one of my favorites

  41. Greetings Kay.
    Super write up.
    I am a Country and Western Dancer of many years and only recently mastered Texas 2-step which is different than ordinary2-step.
    Don’t know where in Texas you are but would like to Boot Scootin’ Boogie and do all the line dances some evening when I visit with Marty if you are in his neck of the woods, OK ?

  42. Fantastic write up Kay! Welcome. I adore you Texans and will have to get myself to that state sometime soon.

  43. one of those who see

    Hi Kay,
    Thank you for your wonderful write up. Love that you wrote it from a Finance Policy Viewpoint. Excellent.
    I wrote a comment on the last post regarding the disappearance of all the execs and any mention or appearance of LRH’s family. GONE. When things go wrong for those still “in the buildings:” Overwhelming debt, told they can’t get audting at That Org and no reason given, or if allowed to get auditing – No Auditing, Asked to take off their shoes, undo bra and take off pants to be audited, Being C/Sed down the bridge, Clear state inval, No f/n s at Examiner-followed by anxiety about f/n s at Examiner etc….. I think one of the first things they see, when they start to look is. Where did everyone go?

  44. martyrathbun09

    Hey John! You lettin’ the bushwhackers know about our western state coverage. Well, at this point it don’t matter.

  45. martyrathbun09

    My pleasure. Yeah, I need a coach.

  46. Scott Campbell

    Yaaaaay Kaaaay!

    L, Scott

  47. Point well taken! :o)

  48. martyrathbun09

    Natalie, don’t forget to bring your husband and daughter.

  49. Tony DePhillips


  50. Kay, In addition to welcome I would like to take this opportunity to thank all who dare to venture into the Independent world. To have the fortitude to hold a position you know and feel is correct. It is to some degree a jump into the unknown. I have two video’s I think of when I think of this Independent movement. The first is a salvage tug to help ships in distress. She is the Abeille Flandre (208feet, 13,000 hp). It may be a test of confront but you find you can handle the elements and come out the otherside fully intact.

    To all former SO and staff members (thank you) – it is the competence of the team which helps to persevere into the unknown. This video is a ship who only exists to help others. That is what many of us intended when we signed on for staff or SO duty. The tech was our stable datum. Kay demonstrates this in what she wrote and what she has done as a Scientologist. Just as this video, all here continue, in our own way, to forge ahead to better conditions for all.

  51. Tony DePhillips

    Hey Marty,
    When are you going to start promoting the Indie Party?

  52. martyrathbun09

    Real soon. Was just waitin’ for somebody to call me out on it in public.

  53. Kay — we never met but I surely have heard your name.

    Sorry to hear about the loss of your husband, Jay. I’m sure he’s doin’ the 2 step up there and teaching the crowd just how to make it look easy.

    My beloved sister married a Texan and when they settled there after his post doc work she told my mother — well, we’ll be living here for the rest of our lives. And sure enough, they have. That was over 30 years ago and he’s not leaving again (went to Stanford for his post doc and they both hated CA).

    I like to post any and all renditions of this I can find: It says so much. This time I thought it fitting to give a shout out to the Italians AND to you —
    hallelujah …


  54. Kay,
    I have not comented much but have followed this blog for well over a year. Your write up was fantastic, using the finance outpoints, which is the exact point of a major outpoints in the COS. I experienced unspeakables in terms of finance outnesses when all I only wanted to go up the bridge. I left bc I felt like my purpose to rocket up the bridge and the church’s promise(stated) was in true conflict; in fact the last few years I felt like I was just chasing my tail.
    Thanks for your courage.

  55. Welcome Kay!

    Thanks for speaking out.


  56. Tony DePhillips

    Nice clip SA.

  57. Tony DePhillips

    Glad to oblige.

  58. Howdy Pardner! Welcome to the Independent Movement! Kay, You are absolutely going to love it. We are definitely doin’ some Texas Two-Step in Austin, Texas! We might just have our next Austin Indie meeting at The Broken Spoke! The first Austin Indie meeting occurred at KickButt Coffee! I would love to meet you soon. I didn’t realize until the very end of your letter that you were in Austin. While reading, I was thinking, “Well, Steve Hall is going to be joined up there in Dallas by another Indie, Austin needs to get their stats up!” And then I read, Kay Proctor, IAS Honor Roll, OT V, AUSTIN TX. WHAT A SURPRISE! THE STAT IS UP!!!!!! YEAH!!!! I made a comment after the Italians announced FIVE PEOPLE at once, that us Operatin’ Texans had better get to work. (Kay, I guess I spent too many years in the Church, thinking about stats.) This is so thrilling. I hope you sent your letter to the staff and public of Austin Org, many of whom are my good friends, that I hope will be joining us soon. I know Yvonne’s letter had a big impact, and I know yours will as well.

    You have quoted some of my favorite finance policy, and I know Austin Org recently did a Fundraiser for their Ideal Org on November 13th of last year, the day I announced my real name as an Indie on this blog. I actually paid for someone to go to it and report back the events of the evening. Yes, I sent a spy. (gasp!) I was intimately involved thirty two years ago with the purchase of the current building, and went through many BIC (Building Investment Committee) LRH Checksheets on many different buildings. That cycle is a whole story in itself, but the one thing that I do know is the Austin Org cannot afford to go off finance policy for an addition to the current building, especially if they are going to have to pay more rent, and higher utility bills.
    Actually, you are correct in quoting the finance policy; no one can afford to go off of the financial policies you have referenced by LRH because they are all based on the fundamental principle of finance:
    This is entirety of LRH Policy Letter of 27 February, 1971. By his Ideal Org Program, DM gets orgs to commit expenditures beyond their ability to pay, and bypasses the REAL income of the organizations, DONATIONS FOR TRAINING AND PROCESSING. By having the public donate to the Ideal Org Programs and the IAS, DM strips the public of their money; money that should go to the orgs for services that the staff would be happy to render. So, in effect, the organizations have NO INCOME, because it is all diverted, and yet they have big bills, because they have to pay more for the renovated quarters or the new posh quarters. So you are very correct, and I think that your references are particularly applicable at this point in time for the Austin Org. They aren’t using the space they have now. There is more than enough money donated already to spruce the place up and make it more attractive, without having to burden the already overworked and underpaid small staff with more expenses. I find the overwhelm into which DM puts the Class V organizational staff, with the above abuses, as criminal and as you say, unconscionable. Your letter will get more of them to think about it, and soon, DM will wake up with an empty building.
    On a lighter note, I learned to two-step at the “Dallas” nightclub in Austin, where I used to tell my girlfriends down at the org, “It is just wall-to-wall good lookin cowboys!” I’ll go out on the town two-steppin’ with you any night of the week! And polka, too!
    As one Operatin’ Texan to another, to quote Yvonne Schick,
    YEE HAW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    Catherine von Ach
    First walked into Austin Org on September 30, 1971, after reading DMSMH
    Bought two intensives of auditing on first visit
    Came back the next day and bought the PRO TR’s Course
    Did entire Grade Chart to Dianetic Clear there
    Original LRH OT IV at AOLA
    CLEAR OT (attested at Flag in 1977)
    on OT V at Flag (After Steve Hall’s posting, to be be finished SOON!)
    IAS HONOR ROLL (to be refunded SOON!)
    AKA Lady Min

  59. 100% real male thetan

    Hello Kay,

    Welcome! Wonderful that there are still women with curves and not just sticks.

    Is there a YouTube tape of you showing us the Texas Two Step? How does Marty know that you dance dignified and in a pleasing tempo? Did you show him? How is he doing in that department? 😉 Don’t blush, Marty.

  60. S-u-w-e-e-t!!

  61. Yay Kay! 🙂

    Nice to have you here and what a great write up too!

  62. That guy can really move his feet!

    Hey, Marty, do you take your gal dancin’? Gals love that, you know!

  63. Well, hell yeah. I am looking to dance and have buckets of fun. The suppression ain’t no more on this gal;s lines. And it is my postulate, that some of these Independent fellers can dance alittle too. Karen, I am in Austin.

  64. Looks like the COB Caribbean Side-Step to me!

  65. Catherine von Ach

    SWEET !!!!

  66. First of all SA, I LOVE the video — its symbolism is beyond words.

    My viewpoint became one of fully applying the Doubt Condition per LRH. He minces no words here: “and announce the fact publicly to both sides.”

    It does not say, do the Doubt Condition and tell your spouse, the wall, the car…. it says unequivocally ‘announce the fact publicly to both sides.”

    To me, I could not be a fence rider. First of all, if I am all upset about the misapplication of LRH policy by DM and can rag on about that, who am I to do different — and attempt to stay under the radar.

    That viewpoint alone makes all the difference. Those of us who have stayed around, been around, seen the outpoints and just keep going along so that we can get along are grossly pts. I know, because I was one.

    But when you get honest and straight, realize that your flows are jammed, stucked, fucked et.al. THE only way out is to get honest & straight and see that you might just be pts to your own group — afraid of the supposed consequences of going public. Could that be close?

    To get the true freedom that we all deserve and have the LRH that we all love in our lives, you must disagree and put yourself out there. Name — who really gives a flip about a name.

    Those so called panty-waist friends you worry about are really not friends. They are illusions of what one wants them to be. The “C” word comes to mind here. We all know it. It is the basis of all our crap — confront.

    Jump out there. Per the LRH drill, “What is the worst thing that can happen”. You have to eat alittle crow or someone sends you a ‘slap crap email’ — well, they may, but is going free here, them or you?

    You can see I am an outspoken one. Katie-bar-the-door may become my new nickname.

    Here’s to a magical future free from suppression. I “might” just be alittle happy, ya think?

  67. Scott Campbell


    Great video clip. Found myself grinning just thinking about bombing through the swells to make a rescue. Adventure on the high seas!

    The first commendation I got in the Sea Org was for voluntarily salvaging a Sea Org member’s sailboat that got swamped in a squall.

    Dave Englehart, Brice Soendker and I spotted someone’s boat go down in a storm. Brice and I jumped in, I got the battery, Brice got the fuel tank – and we handed them out to Dave on the dock.

    We then capsized the boat underwater and the trapped air helped us re-float it. Once we got it up and broke the vacuum, we righted it and pulled it ashore on the nearby beach.

    We were fully clothed, soaking wet and laughing. Dave was blown away by our swift action and wrote nice commendations on both of us. I still have mine. Only then did we find out that it belonged to an S.O. member.

    Ahh, the good old days…

    L, Scott

  68. Very beautiful . . . . and spiritual. Thank you.

  69. Welcome, Kay! We embrace you! Hallelujah!!

  70. Scott Campbell

    Burn it down! Stevie Ray.

  71. And I used to do TRs with her in 1972!

  72. SA thanks for the clip excellent!

  73. Some old people are leaving the church but almost all young people are staying. Average age of a Scientologist is 29.

  74. Kay,
    Congratulations and welcome! As you know the Texas anti-litter slogan is “Don’t Mess With Texas.” Maybe the Texas Indie slogan should be “Don’t Mess With Texans.” They bite back! love, 1 SP

  75. “Wish I was just half the woman you clearly are.”

    I knew that this sex operation of yours wasn’t a good idea.

  76. Dito, Revenimus. Wogs stinking up the comment section.

  77. Mrs. Friend of Ron

    Double Yaaay Kaaay! And a yee haw! to ya! Welcome, welcome, welcome to the light of truth!

  78. Love & peace to you Kay

  79. Welcome to freedom, girlfriend!

  80. ΘTater/GaryLerner

    Hola y Bravo, Kay!

    Your wonderful post is a very welcomed theta comm cycle! I hope that Marty has met with you and that your “two-step” terpsichore was a much appreciated respite from the rigors of keeping us “villagers” (torch carrying folks looking to storm Von FrankenDavey’s castle) in check. 😀 – do-se-do!

    Love and ARC,
    Gary (a villager carrying a eucalyptus burl torch for Der FrankenScavige)

  81. one of those who see

    Beautiful. Thanks!

  82. My husband for sure. Shelby has herself pretty booked up these days. Brad, myself and our son will see about making it to the Indie party that Tony is going to call you out on 😉

  83. David Miscavige is learning: “Don’t mess with Texas”. In 1972 we had a campaign at the Austin Org, “Texas, the first Clear Country” The Dallas Mission came down and joined us. We had a stompin’ good time, two-steppin’ and everything. (Texas still has the right to secede from the Union known as the United States of America. A lot of hard core Texans think we should stioll do it, hence the idea, that we are our own country.) Sorry, Italians, I had to say it. I lived in Italy for four years as a kid, so I understand. You have a beautiful country, but it ain’t Texas. Anyway, Marty and the gang, and the Austin delegation are showin’ DM there ain’t no West Coast Shuffle allowed here. Phrase coined by a Texas Real Estate lawyer who was an Assistant U.S. Attorney, prosecuting white collar crime and fraud cases in Los Angeles County before moving to Austin. (Need an inurement case, Henry?) Anyway, in 1984, when some LA investors tried to pull a fast one on me in a real estate deal, I had to hire Henry, and he made me “blow the whistle” on those guys. After I set a trap for them, that incriminated them by their own devices, of course. The attorney and I were talking one Monday morning. He said, “In L.A. we used to call this (fancy, under the covers, white collar crime) the West Coast Shuffle”. I told him, “Well, this is Texas, and we do the Texas two-step here!” No joke, this was the exact conversation. So, David Miscavige: “This is Texas, and we do the Texas two-step here. Don’t Mess With Texas! Otherwise, you’re gonna find yourself face down in a pile of real Texas cowpaddies, the fresh kind! Before they put you in the Paddy Wagon in your orange jumpsuit, to go to your cell where the bars you’ll be lookin’ at won’t be made of gold. (or burl). They’ll be made of steel, hard Cold Chrome Steel. Just don’t say we didn’t warn ya!”
    Catheine von Ach and the Austin Indie Delegation

  84. Somethin’ ’bout Texas speak that rings true! Well done, Kay. Also, and this is a very big point, MissCabbage has I believe a terrible fear of Tech terminals. I’m sure he’s very scared of being found out, so he declares Class XIIs and has men like Mayo either burned at the stake or throws them in the Hole as “SPs”.

  85. ΘTater/GaryLerner

    Sunsets on the porch and iced tea 🙂

  86. ΘTater/GaryLerner

    One of my favorite political videos! LOL

  87. Dude, it was a metaphor.

  88. Thanks, Cat Daddy, or should I say Horn Doggie (LOL)!

  89. Scott Campbell

    Oh, Katie-bar-the-door!

    Come pick me up off the floor

    If you’re once again so sure/
    we’ll twirl ’round it now some more

    /Honkey-Tonkin’ till we’re sore /
    we’ll trip the light like none before

    Oh, Katie-bar-the-door!

    You’ve got friends and friends GALORE!

  90. ΘTater/GaryLerner

    Kay for Prez! I love your candor and “Texas” style!

    Makes me want to wear spurs! (can a darth tater wear spurs?)

  91. ΘTater/GaryLerner

    LOLOLOL…. Poor Marty must be gettin’ hell from Mosey!

  92. Those were the days my friend, I thought they’d never end! Especially, blinkless 2 hour TRaining Routine Zero. LOL! Hope to see you again, soon!
    Marty, consider yourself called out publicly to name the Indy party. We need to make plans! Lots of old friends to see. Plane reservations need to made, etc, horses need to be saddled up, boots need to be polished, cowboy hats need to be steamed into shape, the saloon needs to stock up, and the band needs to practice those country tunes!

  93. Kay:

    That is an impressive stand to take for what you believe in. The same door in the Church of Scientology one was free to walk in to get involved with the church, is still there to turn around and walk out through to leave.

    One point you make just stands out to me. Allow me to quote it here:

    “I went around to 3 banks, asking for an unsecured loan and when they all turned me down, I then lied and said I needed money for my daughter who needed health care. That was the magic ticket and I left with a loan for $3,000, getting just a little extra in case I wanted to do a course.”

    This is not directed at you. But rather, it is hard to imagine that a person that honestly requests money from a bank for a valid reason is “off to a bad start” in the Church of Scientology”, but once one lies to get the money for auditing and training and gets is under those pretenses one is then “On the road to total freedom and possibly in good with COB.”


  94. Hey Scott,
    By any chance, did that happen in the mid ’80s in Clearwater by the Sandcastle?

  95. Well Catherine, we are definitely going to have to schedule a Texan Indie round up in Kay’s honor — congratulations Kay!!! Hell, I think we might even invite Bruce Pratt from Baton Rouge. We can serve up some appropriate Texas specialties like cornbread, barbecue, and if DM wants to attend… tar and feathers!

  96. Tony DePhillips

  97. Scott Campbell


  98. Ya Kay, I think you might just be! Soooo nice to see.


  99. theystolemychurch

    Rude troll. Go get your kool aid and look in the mirror at you. Can you?

  100. Tony DePhillips

    Nice cut Cat.
    I hope that you can make it to the Indie Party in Texas.

  101. Tony DePhillips

    Your comments frequently have a nasty edge to them if I may say so.
    Maybe it is just me, but after I read them (usually) I find myself thinking, did he just sort of covertly invalidate that post. Now maybe it is because I am sometimes 1.1 that I can percieve this and maybe I am projecting it onto you but I don’t think so.
    It just strikes me as something an OSA bot would do.
    Loki? Am I off base on this one?

  102. Scott,
    Dave Englehart had built his own sailboat and sailed it down to the Apollo in Curacao while on his 3 week leave one year. I was told LRH awarded him right arm rank as he had proven his ability to sail and handle boats. I love being on the ocean. I have been on the Atlantic, Pacific and Carib. Head into large seas and big storms and your confront goes out the roof.

    Well done on helping with the boat!

  103. Scott Campbell

    Did I miss somethin?

    Dun been called, sho ’nuff.

  104. Thank you. You truly represent the lone star state. You were a republic before you were a state. You guys were the only state to defeat another country before statehood! And thus, don’t mess with Texans!

  105. Scott Campbell

    “Do not tell harmful lies” – LRH, from Way to Happiness precept 7.

  106. Scott Campbell


    Don’t know if that was the boat or not. He didn’t mention that it was or had been his and neither does the commendation. Perhaps he had sold it to another by that time.

    The boat that Dave said was his was called the Laissez-faire. We went out sailing on that one several times in between study, post, bridge, Church League rugby team, Church softball team, renovating the FH lobby, recruiting and don’t forget…

    Chasing Girls! …or getting chased by them!

  107. Tony, I’m with you on this. That had a little bit of a snake bite to it. Also, look up his name on wiki and I think it will ‘splain a few things.

    ML Tom

  108. theystolemychurch

    Tony, I think Raul is “perfect” in every way, or at least he thinks he is… often a covert and denigrating comment. Well, too many of his comments anyway. IMHO.

  109. Are you sure you know who you are talking about? 🙂

  110. Scotty, and Marty, I gotta tell you- In 1970 I was in Texas (was in the Army at Ft Hood, Waco) and me and my buddy were driving around 30 miles south-west of Dallas when we saw a “Dance” sign. We went into this big ol’ barn and there was this huge hocky rink type of a set-up and there were around 20 couples doing the Two-Step. But it was different because they had wackydust on the floor and those old boys and girls were moving as if they were on ice skates. I’m here to tell you it was one of the most beautiful things I ever saw. This young boy from Detroit sat there enthralled in fascination at what I saw. Never thought I would see beauty like that in Texas.

    I wonder if they still have this going on there. Anyone know?

    ML Tom

  111. Well done.

    Another Texan that can see it and say it like it is.

    Those that continue to follow Miscavige must have their eyes wide shut…

  112. No, you aren’t off base Tony … I noticed it too.

    Subtle, but it’s there.

    On 2nd thought, it’s blatantly obvious 🙂

  113. Emoticons are creepy.


  114. Toronto Public

    Here in Toronto, Revenimus, “… holding any kind of position in space …” must be a rare ability as I have not seen it manifested recently.
    I have not seen it manifested by the 25 or so OT 7’s and 8’s.
    I have not seen it manifested by the 20 or so +25 year staff members.
    I have tried to understand, for myself, why this is the case.
    Because these same OT’s and/or staff members were not always like that.
    I remember these same people years ago.
    Then they could hold a position in space.
    And often did.
    They were feisty.
    But not now.
    Why? I ask myself this.

    For me, the local scene here in Toronto is best epitomized by a specific woman I know.
    She is 60 years old.
    She is OT 4.
    She is a past staff member at Toronto Org.
    She was a pre-GAT Class 4 gold seal.
    She married another staff member and they have remained married for 33 years.
    She had one child, a son.
    She now has two grandchildren.
    She works for a company owned and managed by Scientologists and has been thusly employed for 23 years or so.
    She is the principal bread winner in the family and that has been the case for about a decade.
    She supported her husband for the 5 years or so that it took him to complete OT 7 and 8.
    She has huge debts and their repayment is largely her responsibility.
    Her grown son is also an auditor and also a past local staff member.
    Her daughter-in-law is also an auditor and also now a past local staff member.

    Let’s say that one day she said something or did something that was”entheta” (like writing a valid knowledge report on off policy org activities) but when confronted by a “Scientology Ethics Terminal” she “held her position in space” and refused to recant.
    Then let’s say she got declared.
    Then let’s say disconnection happened.
    And I can positively state that if my example woman got declared, disconnection would definitely happen.

    Well, this particular woman would lose most everything in her life except her life.
    She’d lose her husband, her son, her 2 grandchildren, her daughter-in-law, her job, her friends, her house, her credit rating and probably her car.
    And because she still believes it, she’d lose her eternity as well.
    I think this senario qualifies as a secondary engram.
    To a greater or lesser degree, she has been sitting in this potential secondary for, I’d say, +30 years.

    This woman, who is not a fictional or composite person, is a woman I have known for 36 years.
    Is this woman going to be able to hold “any kind of position in space”?
    No freakin’ way.
    It’s not going to happen.
    Way to much potential loss.
    Overwhelming loss.
    I don’t think I’d be overstating things if I said this woman would probably lose less if she died suddenly.
    Death would be less loss than being declared and suffering disconnection.
    No, I don’t think I am overstating things.

    So … I would like to argue that threat of loss is the primary control mechanism on planet earth.
    Loss of one’s life happened quickly when speaking out against authority in:
    the Soviet Union 1919-1989 (population 290 million);
    China 1958-1990 (population 1,400 million);
    Iran 1979- P.T. (population 74 million);
    North Korea 1953 – P.T. (population 24 million);
    and elsewhere, I’m sure.

    And so it is the same for the Church of Mestcavologists.
    Control by threat of loss.

    How does one effectively deal with the threat of overwhelming loss?

    I find this question a tough one.
    I have no good answer.


  115. No. I’m afraid you’re bang on here, Tony. There’s a consistency in tone on nearly all his comments. What’s up, Raul?

  116. Know what you know Tony.

    Often I see something like this and you have already brought it up.

    On this particular post, yes it for sure has a 1.1 tone to it IMO.

    And it’s target it Kay.

  117. Welcome to freedom Kay. I have been out now for awhile and it sure does feel good. I was a NOTS CS and auditor at AOLA until 1991. My wife and I have been doing the two step for many years and enjoy the dance. Our whole family including all of the relatives are planning on moving to Austin within the next year or year and a half. My sister in law and her family are moving to Austin in May and then my brother in law and his family are going to follow. My wifes parents and my immediate family are going to follow. I am looking forward to the change.

  118. Dave,
    Age isn’t the issue. Those that know the real Scientology recognize that the current version is an alteration. If the average age is 29 and DM has been at the helm for 25 years; and if the tech was valid; then why aren’t the original public on lines now??? Where are the LRH trained staff???

    Maybe you can get with 100% real male thetan and Dora and dream up something a little more valid. Your average age number is bogus. You said Scientologist – one who applies the tech and betters conditions. This is not the same as kool-aide drinkers, who may average 29 years of body age and no understandings of what LRH wrote.

  119. TD,
    My own hostility is so covert it can’t even be perceived.

  120. Scott,
    Ahhh, yes, the good ole days.
    Like the midnight–all night sails in the channel and a few times having to free the rudder from the mud when we left it too late and were caught by the tide. Dolphins swimming along side of us. Those were good times.
    I hope Dave Englehart wakes up soon.
    L, Eileen

  121. How do I get in on this?

  122. Kay,
    You are one cool, tough, standard and terrific gal! You go, girl!
    Love your style. You are impinging and dangerous.
    “To get the true freedom that we all deserve and have the LRH that we all love in our lives, you must disagree and put yourself out there.”

    Welcome and thank you for stepping out and up.
    L, Eileen

  123. Tony,
    I agree, it is interesting that he points out what is a basically endearing admission and uses it to attempt to make Kay look bad. Takes that one thing out of all the other points she makes to show up discrepancies and how LRH Finance Policies are violated by dm. Tries to make her look just as guilty or something. Didn’t work.

  124. Atta girl Kay.

    Kick some ass an’ take some names.

    We all know should be at the topa that list.




  125. Dear Kay,

    Congratulations on your observations and decision.


  126. Well said Kay, and Welcome back to freedom! So right – what makes my neck so precious? That’s exactly what was going through my mind when I went Indie late 09. If you know the tech it will protect you, and unlike bots going round and round their hamster wheel “Basics” studies I like to actually apply what I know. In my book that makes us real Scientologists. The video analogy of the tug above is bang on. Those still on the hamster wheel may not thank us now next week or ever. But there’s no substitute for doing the right thing. Think it’s called integrity.

  127. CD,

    You rock dude 🙂

    Best rendition is the original.

    Did you know Lenny did his grades back in ’69?

  128. I must also be1.1 cos I get the same vibe from this character.

  129. Tar and feathers……wishfull thinking…..

  130. Tory Christman

    Thank you for this, windhorse! I ***love*** this song, too, and adore
    this version of it! 🙂
    KAY:::: Congratulations, girl ! Great job on getting out, and telling your story, too. If you have any money on account, and this goes for anyone reading this, make sure to get it back. If every person who had money on account demanded it back–they’d be toasted.
    I got my BC money back from ASHO and my IAS money back. I had to use an attorney to help me, but persistence is the key.

    My very best to you 🙂
    Tory Christman (used to be Tory Bezazian) OT 7, Grad 4 Auditor, X-Sea Org, X-Staff, X-OSA Volunteer, X blah blah. You get the picture 🙂

  131. theystolemychurch

    Absolutely sad. This is what our “church” has become.

    I thank my daughters everyday, both silently and verbally that they pointed these things out to me. We all left, at once.

    Soon, when I am done writing our story I will ask Marty to post it. And, if we can be come comfort for “her” we offer that.

  132. Guys and Gals, when all else fails you, including Scientology tech that you are “applying”. Try love. Use love and see if it works. 🙂

    And then if you love others, they may just love you back.

    Love! 🙂

  133. Dear Kay,

    Thank you for your write-up with its healthy dose of “wake up” and look.

    It appears that there is a real trend developing down your way. Texas is leading the charge………

  134. Kay,
    You seem like a nice straightforward lady. If ever you’re back in Tyler, look me up. I spend a bit of time around there, off and on.
    We could go get a bite to eat.

  135. “My own hostility is so covert it can’t even be perceived.”

    There ya go, making me laugh again!

  136. Tony, guys, I think you’re “Right On About Raul”. I started to notice it in the comments on the last blog, “The Golden Age of Fraud”. It seemed like he was spinning every one he commented on, contradicting or denigrating them.

  137. + 1

  138. Wow! And, we both know the long term FSCWUS staff. They KNOW it is a suppressive act. They commit it on a daily basis. They have cash if they wanted to leave staff. They don’t.

  139. Kay,

    A big welcome. I don’t believe we’ve met but your sane, to-the-point breakdown of the off-policy nature of the financial shenanigans going on was very real to me.

    In fact, even beyond that, there are a few more wrinkles.

    It has been long standing policy that one can purchase materials by using prepaid money on account that was originally paid for service. When any materials are sold, however, the money paid for them must be placed in the HCO Book Account and not made available for general FP (financial planning) use (like staff pay, paying rent, utilities, etc). The purpose for this was to ensure an org did not run out of books, but used the money gotten from selling books to buy more books. So when a public debitted “money” from their account for books, this amount still had to go to the Book Account. When a debit is done there is no new money being paid in, so the money has to come from real money paid in that week towards services.

    Well this policy went on for years prior to the release of the Basics never causing a problem (as the amounts were very small relative to org income). With the advent of the Basics and the HUGE quotas given EVERY staff member, this practice became rampant. Most staff are not trained reges so they ran into much less resistance from the public if they told them they could debit it from account. Much easier sale. Now let’s look at the effects of this on a large org and also a small mission, as two extremes of the same scenario.

    At Flag, in a given week, it was not uncommon when I was there that say $ 300,000 in debits were done in a single week. So where did this money come from? It came from service sales. This meant the org FP was reduced by this amount. This was taken off the top before FP was done.

    As a result items obviously had to be cut from FP. Mostly the things that were cut were items affecting the staff (from my personal experience and knowledge). Things like bonuses, which we had been regularly getting until that time, became non-existent. Also major medical allocations were hard to get approved (I know this personally as I had a need for a major medical expense and it was about to be approved and then the Basics came out. As a direct result – I spoke to the Treasury Sec myself – there was no money for this at that point).

    Now let’s look at a small mission. I am talking about a specific mission whose mission holder gave me this information. The missions were under the same pressure everyone else was to sell Basics. At $ 3000 for a full set. If the mission only made $ 5,000 to $ 10,000 in a given week (this was a very successful mission), then if someone debitted even 1 set of Basics from their account, that meant the spendable income for the mission was cut anywhere from 30-60%!!! It was explained to me by this mission holder that it was one of his biggest fears. All the hard work they did to sell and deliver service and keep the staff paid and the doors open could be laid to waste with 1 or 2 Basics debits. So why would they do that? Because they would appear CI to the Basics evolution if they didn’t.

    I can’t think of a more destructive way to have implemented this.

    (To add to this, instead of realizing that it was the method of forcing everyone to buy multiple sets of basics and therefore still have high sales and debit amounts, the FSO at one point “restricted” the use of debits and anything over a certain amount had to be “approved”. Of course if the sale was needed to make an overall quota you can take a good guess as to whether it was approved or not. So now we “cancel” an LRH policy to “make things work”. No one could question that maybe it was the method by which the Basics were being sold and the huge quotas that were enforced that was causing the problem. No, now we had to alter/cancel LRH policy as “destructive” instead of confronting that something else was wrong with this picture.

    This is just one other way these off-purpose activities affected orgs and missions. I thought it was worth spelling this out.


  140. Welcome, Kay.
    What a pleasure to meet you here.

    Love, Kirsi

  141. Kay;

    Your writing demonstrates an expaned definition of the word, “INDEPENDENT”

    I would say, you’re two stepping on the best dance floor a thetan could find.


  142. Tony,
    I think Raul’s point is that we’re in ‘good’ with the Church when we can get money for a service, and we’re out-ethics scum when we can’t. Little or no caring is given to how funds are obtained. It is only when a loan cannot be paid back (and flaps), or a new loan cannot taken out that the trouble begins and the MAA questions the ethics of the cycle.

    Of course, even if you did feel like the ethics handling got your ethics back in (typically deciding to not go out-finance again), that “in-ethics” state often only lasted until your next reg interview, at which time the “greatest good” ceased to be having personal finances in order.

    OK, so did my pitch catch you off base, or did I walk the batterista?

  143. Good story, TorPub. And the moral of the story is: Example woman is PTS to the Church of Scientology.

    Handle or disconnect? Discuss.

  144. Independent Scientologist

    Dean, I lived in Austin for many years and did two stints on staff at Austin Foundation.

    Just curious – what led an entire extended family to decide to move there?

    Besides the fact that it’s a great town!

    – Ron Matlock

  145. martyrathbun09

    Hy, thanks for this inside look. This was SOP at Int for twenty years – canceling LRH policies effectively to implement Miscavige orders. This is a good illustration of how Miscavige’s off-Source, destructive ways made themselves down the org board all the way to Missions.

  146. Steve, great idea! March 13th, LRH’s 100th Birthday, sounds like a good date to me! What about you?

  147. Welcome – the essence of Scientology is practicality and you display in your poignant write up just that.

  148. Dean, I would LOVE to connect up with you & your family when you hit the decks of Austin TX. Please keep contact data for me: txcountrydancer@gmail.com

  149. I think this line says it all:

    “And because she still believes it, she’d lose her eternity as well.”

    That’s a heavy one.

    The loss of family & friends in a small Scientology community like Toronto would be a hard hit let alone the likely loss of employment.

    What you describe IS suppression – one considers he is unable to act and in the situation above, that is sad … she is a real sweetie.

  150. Kay …

    Great photo and a beautifully written declaration!

    Simple & to the point!

    I’m glad you are here.

  151. Like all PTS situations it looks horrible and the mess appears huge but fortunately LRH found some incredible Tech to better conditions. There’s always a way out of disaster as she has been able to mire himself down, she’s of course also able to get herself out.

    It all starts with education like any other dePTSing. She could learn a lot by reading this blog and many others and educate herself about what is really going on in her universe. She should be able to relate everything to standard PTS Tech.

    She should thoroughly understand that staying in the Church and connected to an active SP will prevent any lasting (Bridge) progress, period. As she’s been trying to handle it for a long time and obviously that’s panning out pretty contra productive, the EP would be the cognition that the only way left would be disconnection.

    Doing that straight away without any plan could have major consequences which she might not survive. Once she has been thoroughly educated she might look at those closely around her and educate them as well. The blogs of Marty and Steve should be pretty well understood as well as letters like those of Garcia. Any of her associates that are up to it would follow the rest of the cycle.

    Then she should ask for a full refund because of the lies, forced reg cycles and Davey’s extortion racket. On top of that she should ask huge damages (which could later be used for bargaining). The Church might not pay and then she will have to sue.

    It’s going to be though and she should keep her ethics in; the Church might try to buy her off and make her sign BS agreements that’d impede her human rights even further but she can’t sign away her integrity as she has been doing that for 30 years and look what it bought her.

    Copies of the suit should be send to all media and blogs as soon as possible. If she goes bankrupt due to the suit (not) the whole world will hear about it and she will at least have her integrity back. On top of that she will have made it a lot easier for others to follow and for media to expose what the Church is doing.

    Her personal danger after 30 years is huge as she might lose a lot of (1.1) friends that’ll drop her at first glance. She might lose family that is not ready yet to confront truth and get their own integrity in but she has the duty to a least make them think and set an example for them to eventually follow. Not doing so is a way to lose them as in the end they may upbraid her for not even hinting.

    Not doing so makes her guilty of contribution to the group engram whereas by speaking out she will acquire lots of real friends here and some of you close to her can offer a place to crush and unwind. Like everyone else who made a stance she’d keep the ball rolling and the PT group engram will evaporate that much faster.

  152. It was sad to get phone call after phone call from Sea Org members at Flag, the ship and in L.A. who said they couldn’t secure (go to bed) until they made their quota of sales. My parents and other friends received these same calls. The S.O. member had to be pretty desperate and exhausted to actually tell a public person this.

    My mom was one of the many public who had money debited off her account for basics that she did NOT approve. I can only imagine the pressure the staff was under for them to result to criminality to make a suppressive quota.

    That pressure and use of threats on staff to make quotas is something that really pisses me off. These are good people, giving up their lives in the name of helping others. To treat them this way is beyond cruel. I hope they find the strength to leave and realize that there is so much more to life than trying to get a stat up for a little dictator.

  153. Request from the Newest Newbie Indie :
    Some of you use an alias, yet your sign with your name. Could you please start using your real name and drop the alias?

    It would reduce another significance as we get to know one another. I want very much to get to know you and that would certainly help me & probably others?

    Okay to do that?

    Thanks & ML,

  154. Tor Pub:

    Your description of the woman you know describes many church Scientologists I know, especially in communities like Clearwater and LA where they work for each other and only associate with other churchies. There, the constant threat of secondary that you describe is so real. The fear of saying or doing something that might lead to a KR and “call from the MAA.” Add to that the crushing debt and the belief that it is terrible being “out there in the wog world” combined with the conviction that the church is the only purveyor of “spiritual freedom” and truly they are trapped.

    Others (at least 10 OTs I know) look and observe and are in some stage of leaving. Others I know personally are beginning to question in hushed tones. Years ago I read an LRH quote on the back of a promo piece which I have never been able to identify the reference for, but to paraphrase, it went something like:

    “You’ve all heard of a communication lag. Well there’s a reality lag too.”

    Perhaps Jim Logan recognizes the source of that quote.

  155. Kay
    Well done!
    And thank you.
    Welcome to the group 🙂

  156. Wonderful epitome of the discussion above. What’s your case level?

  157. Great examples Hy,

    This to me is a concerted effort to wipe out what’s left of the Mission/Class lV Org network.

    Even prior to the introduction of the Basics, orgs & missions were having a very rough time keeping a standard FP in. In addition to this; the IAS, Way to Happiness, Say No to Drugs, WISE, Freewinds & Flag World Tours cut right across org lines leaving both orgs & public scrambling.

    Currently, we have Flag promoting Grades, ARC S/W, Academy levels, Objectives, L’s; and the Freewinds promoting all these new Seminars … anything they can think of to buffer their stats.

    The result is Missions & Orgs are having their very public ripped off which undermines the very foundation LRH intended. The old Mission network was workable and the Mission/Franchise holders autonomous to a great degree. It was a constant flow to St. Hills/AOs.

    I can see the day where what’s left of the Missions & Org network disappears all together and what will be left will be fancy buildings and a Bridge so expensive to the average person, that it is only a dream.

  158. Natalie,

    This is so widespread that if everyone who has been a victim of this “debiting off account for books without consent” was to return the books and get their money back, all of DM’s “square footage of Scientology buildings more than the highest skyscraper in the world” wouldnt be able to hold them, and all of his “International Reserves” wouldnt be able to satisfy the run on the bank.

    But I heard a new one yesterday. “Loaning” services off account to someone else without consent. The person only discovered it when one of the public who had been “loaned” services “repaid” them and the new person in Treasury didnt know what to do, so contacted them to ask what to do! And then there is the “Ethics Officer” calling someone when “books you [unknowingly] donated to others” were returned to the org as unwanted — the EO wanted to know what the person wanted to do with “his” books now!

    The Vulture Culture rules — over a stinking corpse of a church that has hit the bottom of the motivation scale…

  159. As a side note, but one of interest to me, Scott, you just mentioned a guy named Brice Soendker. I was at Flag in the mid 80s and in the Flag course room were many many dictionaries with the name Brice written in magic marker across the outside of the pages. There seemed to be hundreds of them. I always wondered who Brice was. I never met or saw anyone with the name Brice but it seemed almost every dictionary had his name on them. One of my friends called him “the elusive Mr. Brice”. We thought Brice was his last name. Then one day I happened to see inside the front cover of one of the dictionaries the full name written out “Brice Soendker” and I thought, “Oh, Brice is his first name.” I just now asked my wife, who was also in the Flag course room in the eighties, if she remembered the name Brice written on the pages of all these dictionaries, and to my surprise she remembered them too. But I never found out “Who is Brice?” Can you solve this 25-year mystery for me?

  160. Dear Toronto Public,
    Thank you for this story of the woman that you know in Toronto. It is a heart-wrenching demonstration of how Disconnection operates and is used as coercion and extortion in the Church of DMology. It is my belief that Disconnection, the way that it is used (enforced, not voluntary) is the glue that holds the Church of DM (David Miscavige)together. If they did not have that, all of us Indies would soon communicate to the public in the Church, and there would be no reason for them to stay, to get the second-hand, altered version of the technology. That is why they fight so hard to maintain Disconnection, because they know without that, it would be all over, but the crying. But, and this is a big BUT, they cannot stop theta* communications between Scientologists, no matter how hard they try. So, little by little, through Marty’s exposes, the communications of new Indies, like Kay, that get through, the public are learning that there is an alternative, the REAL LRH TECH, and there is a life after the Church of DM. We live in the Age of Communication, with the instantaneousness of the Internet and Social Media. THE MESSAGE CANNOT BE STOPPED. Yes, your friend is suffering, as they all are, but every new Indie makes it better and safer for the next. I am working to find a way to force the Church of DM to end their practice of enforced Disconnection, but until then, we have to communicate whatever way we can, on any line that is available. Those of us who got to experience the real LRH technology, learned HOW to communicate, and sister, that is what we’re doing! See, we have L. Ron Hubbard’s Scientology Axiom #51 on OUR side:
    What David Miscavige has NOT learned, is that, according to the above, live communication is SENIOR to the physical universe, it is SENIOR to Matter, Energy, Space and Time. He can build all the Ideal Org buildings in the world, and not one of those buildings will ever be senior to the live communication of a REAL Scientologist, trained by L. Ron Hubbard. So do not worry about your friend, she will be free soon. It is only a matter of time, tick, tock, tick, tock. For those of you here not familiar with Scientology terminology, there are definitions below.
    Much love, LM
    P.S. This blog is about as LIVE a communication as you can find anywhere! And in case you haven’t noticed, our postulates ARE working!
    * Postulate: (noun) A conclusion, decision or resolution made by the individual himself on his own self-determinism on data of the past, known or unknown. The postulate is always known. It is made upon the evaluation of data by the individual or on impulse without data. It resolves a problem of the past, decides on problems or observations in the present, or sets a pattern for the future.
    *MEST: A made-up word, meaning matter, energy, space and time, the physical universe. All physical phenomena may be considered as energy operating in space and time. The movement of matter or energy in time is the measure of space. All things are mest except theta*.
    *THETA: Theta is thought, life force, elan vital, the spirit, the soul, or any other of the numerous definitions it has had for some thousands of years. 2. Greek for thought or life or the spirit. 3. An energy exisiting separate and distinct from the physical universe.
    *AUDITING: The application of Scientology processes and procedures to someone by a trained auditor.
    *AUDITOR: A person trained and qualified in applying Scientology and /or Dianetic processes and procedures to inidviduals for their betterment; called an auditor because AUDITOR means “one who listens.”
    * Definitions from the Basic Dictionary of Dianetics and Scientology, Second Printing 1983

  161. Fellow Traveller

    Thank ya for the Texas hospitality! ‘Preciate it.

    Bruce Pratt
    From Baton Rouge

  162. Hi Bozz,
    Thanks for welcoming Kay. Just couldn’t let your remark go by, “…just might bring life to Austin yet.” Hey, what about Yvonne and Ken and me, alive and kickin’ here, the Austin Indie delegation (plus other lurkers who haven’t announced yet)? We’re Kickin’ Butt, and taking names. You should come visit and see REAL SCIENTOLOGY ALIVE AND WELL IN AUSTIN, TEXAS. (Along with all the great live music, and Indie movies!) Please visit soon. We’re old friends, and I know you didn’t mean it, but just wanted to defend us in case anyone else got the wrong idea!
    ML, Catherine von Ach
    P.S. Do you have the transcripts to OEC, FEBC, or ESTO (Establishment Officer) lectures? Didn’t know you did FEBC training in LA. I remember when people from Austin were recruited to do that training at ITO. (International Training Organization). Bet you use it every day, huh!

  163. Hi Kay, I loved to read your story. It was warm and good. Great ack to LRH too.

  164. Yes, creepy was the word that came to me, too.

  165. troll.

  166. Again, troll.

  167. Independent Scientologist

    John, we are on staff together in the 1990s.

    Send me an email when you get the chance!

    – Ron Matlock


  168. Hy,
    Interesting. When the Congresses came out (I think they were 1700.00 or so), the message from Management was that all staff were to stay up until the quota was met. Knowing the FP-hell we would go through with the ‘debiting off account’, I prepared the public for weeks prior to the event. The r-factor was that a new release was coming; that they would want it; that they would get it, and they could not debit this one from their account. Being a small org, our quota was do-able, so we pulled it off (only took til 3 am).

    The day after the event, I was required to load a program into the computerized finance system that dealt with a “minus Gross Income”. The program was obviously designed to handle an org or mission who took in say, $5000 for services and debited $7000 in books. So I loaded this program (but didn’t need it). A few days later, I was asked by my management terminal how I managed to make my quota and not have a “minus GI”. I told him I forbade debiting. He just went, like “huh”. Apparently ASHO debited so much that night, it was nearly 200,000 MORE than their Gross Income.

    But hey, who cared? The quota for the new week for Congress sales was to do it again. What a f***ing distraction and one of the more destructive orders. When these new things come out, the hype prior to the event is always “this will literally boom your org”. Yeah, like bombs do………………

  169. I was also at flag in the 80’s and did a few missions to see about fixing up the Diana, which was dry-docked just north of the base. At the time I thought it would have been a no brainer and that the Diana would be completly renovated. After a few ops missions the cycle was dropped. Seemed very odd due to the history of that boast and Scientology. Mby this was one of many things that DM negleted, in order, to elevate himself and burry LRH.

    I also played on the rugby team back then ( the Crusaders), what a great time it was to get out and run with like minded people.


  170. Hi Kay and welcome!
    Loved your write up and dissection of the scene. Pay attention and rejoice in your blow-downs over the weeks and months to come!
    Linda McCarthy

  171. Based on LRH finance policy aren’t you supposed to keep the money in reserve until the person actually starts the service? So if a person makes advanced payment towards their service account or next service, but they actually haven’t started their service I thought this was not to be considered GI and held in a separate account?

    I see why through the years orgs struggling to survive would use the money right away, but then as we saw with the basics, refunds, etc.. orgs get screwed at some point trying to make up the difference each week with hard cash.

  172. +1, ROTFLMAO, again! Oh, and the floor I’m rolling on is made of burl wood.

  173. Tony DePhillips


  174. The ONLY weapon Miscavology has is “disconnection”. To agree with this weapon is the same thing as believing in paper chains. To anyone that wants to disagree with the current situation in the Church but are afraid of disconnection and the potential secondary I say “Nuts”.


    Cast off the paper chains. The real weapon that we have is people disconnecting from DM. Each time one of us says “Bye-Bye DM” it puts a dagger in that dark clinker he calls a heart. Remember that.

    All great revolutions started with one person, then another and then finally the ground swell. You guys want DM out? Come out yourself and tell him NO! You say: “Hi, I’m Joe Blow and I am telling DM he is a squirrel and he needs to go.” If 500 people did that today DM would vaporize and OSA Int would go exterior. That’s is what is going to work in the end.

    ML Tom.

  175. Maybe you could make a list for yourself. Most people are a bit fond of their Nick Name.

    Like Thoughtful is Steve Hall

    But I understand were you are coming from. I am not a Scientologist nor do I have anything to fear here in The Netherlands. So here you go.

    Niels Martens

  176. Many of us old ones leaving were young people when we started. Hopefully the new “youngun’s” will wise up much faster than we did.

    Another point, when we were young, there were ten times as many people coming into Scientology as there are now. So “all the ones still in (all three of them) are young compared to the old ones leaving (hundreds of them) is more like it. Thanks for pointing that up. Wouldn’t have thought of it without your help. See, even trolls have their uses!

  177. Tony DePhillips

    Survey says………BINGO!

  178. theo Sismanides

    Triple that for Kaaaay!

  179. +1. Would love to know the answer to this, Dean. Also, I’m a REALTOR, be happy to help all of you with a new home, when you’re ready. Dean, did we ever meet? I feel like I know you from somewhere. Did my OT levels at AOLA during 1972, 1973. Started going to Flag in 1975. Just wondering. . . . . .
    Catherine von Ach, also know as Cathy Von Ach

  180. Hello Toronto Public,
    I understand the situation this woman is in, though mine was not as desperate. I would say the first thing this woman should do is make a lot of friends who would not disconnect, whether in the local area or on-line. Death is not better than starting over with a new group of friends.

    I would first get a job not connected to Scientology, so that finances couldn’t be used to overwhelm immediately.

    I know a woman who has accepted the fact that she will lose her connection to two of her children when she is declared. How does she accept this? Because she knows they will see the truth someday and reconnect.

    Living a life under so many pressures to be someone she is not is painful. Will it be painful to go through the changes necessary to become herself? Yes. Will it be worth it? Definitely.

    If you have a chance to befriend this woman, do it. And I say this, no matter how close or distant this woman is, because sometimes we have failed to befriend even ourselves. With love and the best of wishes to you, M6

  181. Wow, I experienced all the above–debiting from my account, first with and then without my knowledge; multiple sets forced on me; AND the fact that the account was being “recalculated” so that money magically appeared that had not been there before! But to realize that ASHO debited $200,000 more than G.I. and then had to do it again–that pulls the vomit right out of your throat and throws it on the floor in one involuntary motion! SPEW!!!! GACK!!! GROAN!!!

  182. Tony DePhillips


  183. Yeah Tony, are you sure?? I mean really sure ? Maybe your observations and perceptions are deceiving you.
    Maybe you should really think about it for a good long while.
    I mean after all, we’re all just good chums here, wink, wink, hug, hug, vomit.
    Hugs and kisses from your bestest friend!

    🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂

  184. Raul, I DO love you, but you don’t return my phone calls or respond to the notes I leave on your door and at your work. Is it because I’m a dog Raul?

    Hugs and kisses.

    🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂

  185. Tony DePhillips

    Marty will announce it one of these days…

  186. Kay, I know what you mean, it can be a bit confusing. In my case, I “lurked” for almost a year before revealing my identity. One of the things that happens is when you make changes, you lose your icon, and get automatically assigned another. I just love my little purple square, and I don’t want to lose it. Also, those of us who have used an alias for a long time have developed affinity for that identity, and don’t want to lose that either. It has been great fun to be Lady Minn.
    Many years ago, in the courseroom at the Austin Org, I was doing a clay demonstration of a Scientology principle, and had the realization that a spiritual being is himself or herself, (as you wish to think about it, a spiritual being having no gender,IMO), and that any identity taken on in the physical universe is just that, an identity “taken on”. You can get “stuck” in an identity in this world, just having one name, unless changed by marriage. It is fun to be another identity. For me, with all the invalidation I received from the Austin Org with my “burn notice” and all the lies told about me, some of which I started to believe about myself, (Was I really a Suppressive Person?. . . . .constant introversion and introspection ensued). It has been very therapeutic to “be” another identity. I was able to develop friendships here, without the attachment of the negative history, much of which was Black Propaganda, that had amassed during my troubles with the Church. So, I am going to keep my “handle”, Lady Minn, (misspelling of Lady Min) and use my physical universe name on the important posts. That “handle” allowed me to speak out against the abuses, without fear, until I developed the courage and confidence to speak out under my “real name”.
    It has been a long journey into Moving On Up A Little Higher, and I will never forget the love, affection and communication that I received here, that enabled me to rebuild my life. This is a life I have had to rebuild without my son and only child (disconnected) and the 30 years of Scientology friendships that I lost when I received my Burn Notice. I went for 9 years with very few terminals to communicate to, being lonely and sad, and being Lady Minn on this blog changed everything for me. As a spiritual being, it put me on a path from which I will never disconnect. I can never thank Marty and the participants of this blog enough, for saving me from the miserable life I was living when I first started here. That is why I communicate so much here, trying to reach others who might be experiencing the loneliness and misery that was my life before.
    Just wanted you to know.
    Love always,
    Catherine von Ach

  187. Wow, Cat Daddy, aka Horn Doggie, (woof), THANKS! Nice to know your name! You had mentioned a long time ago, that you were in the Netherlands. So now, I have something else to call you, Neils!
    It has never ceased to amaze me the references you would come up with, being a non-Scientologist. I think you are a “closet Scientologist” at heart. LOL!
    Much love,
    Catherine von Ach
    P.S. Born in Salzburg, Austria, by the way. American Father, Austrian mother. Much of my childhood spent in Europe: Austria, Germany and Italy. If I didn’t love Texas so much, I’d be living in Europe. Many relatives in Austria and Germany.

  188. Good for you Linda, some people actually can think with policy and you and Tom are two of them. (God I wish things had turned out so you and Tom both ended up in Exec Strata!)

    I agree with Kay, the missing Int Execs at events has to be questioned.

    DM has so warped LRH ED 339R Int. LRH never envisioned a single dictator who blots out WDC and Exec Strata.

    LRH wrote LRH ED 339R Int after he privately complained that management “had failed for the millionth time”. The point is LRH ordered Exec Strata and WDC and he ordered Int Coord Council to be how the top decision making was to happen.

    LRH did NOT want a single person doing it all, like DM.

    LRH wouldn’t approve of DM.

    Management needs people who can think straight. And have humility to admit their mistakes and fix them.

    Needed is an Exec Strata made of people like LRH envisioned.

    DM’ laid so many serious eggs, that any manager at the top is faced with having to go against DM, to get anything done, and that personal threatening predicament is a no win situation due to DM’s personality.

    I see the independent movement as a group “ARC Break Program” on itself, since official Scientology is blocked against fixing DM’s mistakes.

    You Linda, should have been in Exec Strata!!!


    PS: If anyone ever wants to see all the twists and turns previous management orders caused, one only needs to read the LRH EDs in date sequence and you see how LRH ED “orders” were used as temporary fixes (EDs expire and aren’t long range, unless reissued) to the ongoing unpredicted problems that past orders caused. It used to be that managers who were trained, LEARNED all the past mistakes, in fact LRH in the Exec Strata advices, LRH said that each Exec Strata person was to do their “25 year study” which gives that Exec Strata person the whole history of what past mistakes and solutions were tried, in the course of doing management for their zone.

  189. Wow, great write-up and great references!

    Thank you for speaking out Kay!


  190. It’s a classic problem that persists – she can do neither. And if she spots the truth in that, it’s just as likely she won’t see any way to take action at all. So the poor woman is stuck in this perpetual secondary for ages.

    But there is a way to handle it:

    There exists other people that are not PTS to DM – us. Part of what makes Scientology so valuable is our increased willingness to help others. If we just keep on doing what we are doing, DM will be gone before long.

    And then this woman’s problem will cease to exist.


  191. Agreed.

    LRH expected there were to be Exec Strata members who, like Linda (Spanky) acted on her own, and for this basics books sales campaign, Linda ordered people’s advanced payments NOT be touched to pay for the new release. THAT is exactly what LRH would have expected of Int Coord Council to have come up with.

    Likely, due to DM or one of the top DM valanced non manager mini dictators, the decision to make maximum income trumped all considerations.

    What should have happened is GIEI and Treasury Exec Int should have agreed and issued a 1 year Int Management Bulletin saying exactly what Linda implemented.

    Managers at the top have to know their “tools” and LRH ordered that Int Management HAVE their issue type to order these types of temporary (expire unless reissued) orders.

    The Basic Books SHOULD have had the accompanying order NOT to be debited from people’s advanced payments for services.

    This site has basically ALL of the major decisions that have done the movement serious damage these last 3 decades.

    DM has made it a climate where going against his decisions is not an option, and he’s an unrealized very bad manager, and he’s made it so whoever does rise up to Exec Strata and WDC and to Int Coord Council, that NONE of those top managers can go against DM’s bad past decisions. He’s blocking them from doing their jobs, which would be to point the finger at DM, inevitably and that is the overall losing predicament they are stuck in.

    Here’s a protest sign a former Scientologist raised at the Pasadena Ideal Org event, hoisting this protest sign OVER the wall so if event goers turned around, they’d have seen this sign:

  192. Hy,

    Yes, I ran into this too. The org was Pretoria and the time frame early 90’s. It was a huge problem for us even back then – a debit from service account for even a set of OECs and Tech Vols could wipe out the entire CGI for 3 weeks. If I remember right, a set of red and green then was something like 12 intensives worth. Yes, you read it right – 12 intensives. A Mk 6 Meter easily cost more than an entire accurate Tech Estimate for the lower bridge at HGC rates (it makes a mockery of the training route: I bought a 0-V training package for 5k in 94. A meter cost 35k)

    We had to go along with it – there’s a genuine LRH policy backing it up. We would try to resist, but the policy exists.

    One day I figured it out. Keep in mind that DM had not yet started his more gross shenanigans:

    When LRH wrote the policy, books were cheap, very cheap. And there weren’t many of them, gigantic over the top CD binders and full overpriced Basics package just did not exist. What did exist was Problems of Work at maybe a buck and an intensive at maybe 70 bucks. Whole different picture.

    To make things worse, books in South Africa were horrendously expensive. Pubs AF had to buy books from Denmark. But it wasn’t Denmark, there was a via through UK. The exchange rate to buy sterling was insane.

    What I’m saying is that the debit from service account policy is one who’s time has come and gone. The circumstances that made it valid and possible simply do not exist anymore.

    But, to end on a positive note, there’s a way to re-instate the original intent of the policy. Make the books available as digital ebooks, lose the idea that books are a profit centre and sell the written Tech at cost plus a little to cover expenses. The price differential will go back to where it was in the 60s and 70s.


  193. Does anyone know who the last Treasury Exec Int was? Probably hasn’t been one in 10 years. All there is, is GI Exec Int, who hasn’t done their “25 year study” and who wouldn’t even dream of not doing what DM expected, and who doesn’t give a damn (since that’s also DM’s outlook) of the hardships and fallout that this decision has caused.

    There’s no one correcting the top of the movement, no one correcting DM. They’re too scared, they’d lose everything, in trying to go against DM’s bad managering.

    Only people outside the threats, and people who’ve “lost” and exited, are free to bring up the movement’s actual major problems.

    I think this site’s priceless.

    Were Exec Strata members allowed to read this site, and hear what former Int managers are saying, would be about the best thing that could happen to official Scientology.

    Or for existing Scientologists to venture here, and hear and absorb the valid complaints, and then filter those complaints concisely up the lines, somehow this impasse DM’s created will be unsettled one way or another.

    Is the email RTC line of reports is actually listened to and who deals with that email RTC complaints traffic line?

  194. Chuck,

    I have a full set of those LRH EDs – a two volume ring binder set. And I’m the only person or org in the world I know of personally who has such a jewel 🙂

    No, you can’t have the originals. But feel free to make copies – just bring coffee (lots) and paper (lots).

  195. Lucy,

    You are completely correct, but I can’t find the reference or even recall where it is (it’s obscure).

    There’s also supposed to be an FBO in every org who receives all the GI and bisburses it according to policy. And there’s supposed to be an AC that draws up the weeks budget strictly according to FP#1, an EC that approves it and submits it to the FBO who pays it. And, the weekly GI is supposed to exceed the FP budget by a fair amount leaving a surplus that the FBO can salt away for a rainy day and never spend.

    But sadly, none of those things exist anymore either.

  196. One courageous ex official Scientologist hoisted this protest sign, double-sided with message on both sides, above the wall surrounding the Pasadena Ideal Org event.

  197. Noooooooooooooooooooo!!!!!!!!!!!

    I’ve spent years, literally years, cultivating the on-line identity of splog. It even means something:

    Snarky Pedantic Lazy Old Git.

    But you can relax, it’s an in-joke and I don’t bite. My name is Alan McKinnon and I’m from Joburg, South Africa. Sometimes I remember to sign my name at the bottom of posts, but more usually I forget 😦

    Welcome to the Independants! Loved your letter too, Texans are like South Africans – we both don’t like BS much and tend to call it as we see it.

    Now that I think of it, Independants as a whole are like that 🙂

  198. CD is a Google-master.

    The fu is strong with that one, very strong indeed.

  199. The issues that you talk about in South Africa are directly related to exchange rates between US based pricing and SA based pricing. That is why through the years so many OT’s have had to stop their bridge progress because they couldn’t afford to arrive at FLAG and pay US prices when the exchange is generally $1 per 7 Rand. It makes most of the bridge completely unattainable financially and impossible to by materials at US based prices. The pricing structure needs to be US prices divided by 7 in order to get more SA’s on the bridge. But DM is suppressive on finance lines so that will never change.

  200. Well, before you croak, let one of the archivist researcher types, COPY what you have. And be sure to bequeath your trove of LRH EDs so they are NOT lost to Scientology history destroyers.

    Please email me, chuckbeatty77@aol.com

    I hope people are NOT into hoarding, but more sharing of the full LRH canon of materials. Getting the LRH materials online to sites that can’t be taken down, I think is a public service.

    anonymous people are the ones who put a lot of the materials on Wikileaks, and onto other sites, so people can access the material who need it for research, etc.

    The LRH EDs, there are lot MORE than are in the navy blue 3 vinyl binder set.

    I assume you are not just talking about the Bridge Publications navy blue vinyl 3 binder set of LRH EDs.

    There were a lot of LRH EDs which were commendations, and praiseworthy ethics assignments, awards to Scientologists for their contributions. Those awards and commendation LRH EDs and EDs, with lists of people’s names, are part of Scientology’s history, and I feel SHOULD be in the public domain.

    I particularly was struck when in 1982, the 1981 LRH ED that praised David Mayo, and gave David some ethics commendation, that particular LRH ED was pulled from our admin course room binders, due to David Mayo’s fall from grace.

    There are so many past LRH ED awards and commendations LRH EDs that SHOULD be made public domain available for history.

  201. plainoldthetan

    Splog isn’t the only one with a set of the “original LRH EDs” in a 2-binder set. I gots a set, too.

  202. Wow, SPLOG, great to know your other name: Alan McKinnon. Also, nice to know what SPLOG stands for. Joburg, South Africa. Well, the Independent Movement is truly world wide. That is so exciting!

    Any chance that you know of a Jeanie and Mike Ibert? They were friends of mine from Austin, TX that joined the Sea Org many years ago, probably 35 years ago or so, and I heard they were assigned to Joburg, SA. Never heard anything about them since. Do you have any info on them?

  203. Yes, I think “the force” is in that one.

  204. Is the email RTC line of reports is actually listened to and who deals with that email RTC complaints traffic line?

    It was when I was in Chuck.

    In fact I found that was the best way to get in trouble.

    Especially if your report had anything to do with GAT and how off policy and out tech it was.

    Usually it took 24 hours or less to find your sorry ass in a roll back session after that.

    I mean how efficient is that?

    Maybe they got it down to an instant declare now where you send a report and they send you a special lil’ Goldenrod message you can frame 🙂

  205. Kay,
    Great formula and LRH references! Welcome to the Independents!

  206. Jeannie posts for the cult as “jbasoon” in the SP Times and New Yorker comments section. Apparently Jeannie and Mike are at Big Blue.

  207. Dave-troll,

    And any young people in your so-called “church” today will grow old and eventually leave, feeling betrayed and bitter.

    That’s your “valuable final product”. Are you proud of it?

  208. Yes, luna, I smell troll too. I believe I read that trolls never wash…..

  209. Right on! Great photo of a great sign, Chuck.

  210. Raul,

    This is for you:

  211. I was never in the Sea Org, but this beautiful song by John Denver always evoked the Sea Org for me, as the Sea Org was perhaps meant to be. The song is actually about Jacques Cousteau’s ship “Calypso” but I believe the spirit is the same.

  212. Tony, if your off base its only because your getting ready to steal 2nd . Raul cuts both ways. Always has. My opinion was he is troll and I said so on his first posting a month or two ago. If he isn’t, he just hates scientology and thinks he has found a home. Either way, it stinks coast to coast.

  213. Independent Scientologist

    Jeanie is ED of LA Day. Mike is head of the CC finance network (or some such post). Jeanie looks GREAT. Did not get a chance to see Mike what I was in LA last year.

  214. Hey cowboy…. check your email…. little somethin’ somethin’ there. And I am expecting a return comm w/lots of info…. Take care, L, K

  215. Hi TorPub. This woman’s story is told from your viewpoint. I wonder what her viewpoint is?

  216. Good for you, Kay! And you are completely right. Excellent write-up.

  217. I am still confused on exact LRH policy when it comes to advanced payments. Who cares if you had money on account that had not been used whether it was for books, services or whatever, the fact is you have unsued monies just sitting there. If the orgs had set aside the original monies you put on account but had yet them debited for services because you were just making advanced payments the money should have been sitting there in reserves. Am I correct in my understanding of LRH finance policies?

    I also thought that any monies sitting on account were not spent in case you had refunds (repayments of unused funds).

    Having said all of this, I think the whole finance system has been so screwed for so many years that “solutions” were justified to GI’s, targets, etc… that nothing is standard and hasn’t been since the early 90’s.

  218. Those of us “old ones” that got in pre-Miscavige have experienced real Scientology, and we recognize that’s not what the Church is selling these days. Anyone who got in more recently has never had standard tech, admin or ethics to compare it with.

  219. Scott Campbell

    He was out for a while but now is back in.

  220. Scott Campbell

    Sorry Eileen,

    That reply Re: Dave Englehart being out but now back in was for you.

  221. Tony DePhillips


  222. I do think that my comment here on Kay was twisted, invalidated and pretended to mean something else by more than one person.

    I never said I thought that Kay was bad or wrong or evil. I said it is amazing that if I were to go to the bank and ask for a loan for auditing and training I would be turned down 3 times. But that if I went to the bank and lied and said I needed it for my child’s health care I would be instantly approved.

    I think that is more of an example of the kind of suppression that exists in the world and not a personal attack on a former church member’s character.

    Being a personal trainer and fitness consultant for many years with thousands of satisfied customers, I find it VERY hard to belittle other people for assets they don’t have might enjoy attaining.

    It doesn’t change my opinion of this BLOG because a lady I once met on line named Tory Christman told me this {and she is a verified FORMER church member}:

    “Raul, what people complain about to other people, like OSA does, is what they themselves are guilty of doing to others”.

    Thank you Tory, wherever you are.

  223. Scott Campbell


    I didn’t know about the dictionaries but…

    Brice was a recruit to the Sea Org for the Ship Project. He had been a member of the famous Seabees in the U.S. Navy. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seabee

    He was to be posted as the First Mate on the Freewinds but something happened and he never made it. I was out of town and lost touch with the cycle. His name and some data is mentioned on this site:


    And on this site under “Dorms Across Street from “Celebrity Center”.


    That as much as I know Brudduh,


  224. Scott Campbell

    Gotta ask Kay, Brother.

    Never seen that myself.

    L, Scott

  225. Scott Campbell

    Great duplication Spank-o-matic.

    Sorry, I couldn’t resist


  226. If I was auditing you Raul I’d just ack and continue but I’m not so here’s the 411.

    A lot of your comments come off as “holier than thou”.

    I already slammed you on that in another post but I’ll say it again.

    A lot of people, me in particular don’t get off on others telling them how morally superior they are or implying it in some way.

    It’s like a total turn off dude.

    Making others guilty is like not considered cool around here and will give you a bad case of kooties.

    Yeah OSA does it all the time because that’s how their lil’ criminal minds work.

    That doesn’t mean *you* have to play that game.

  227. Splot,
    I got my own set! My guess is there are more people posting on this blog with LRH tech – and have read more LRH tech/admin – than any of those monitoring this blog. Many of us WANT things to be done the right way. I will give a big thank you to Spanky and Chuck for helping me understand that body of knowledge. As of about 2 years ago you could still buy this set from Pubs. Seems they were clearing out all “old” stuff collecting cob-webs.

  228. Lucy and Splog,
    I don’t have the reference at hand but a summary is like this. Prior to the FBO system (which started in SO orgs only) an Org collected GI. From this figure it removed Book account monies and a few other things and the remainder was in the bank. The FP was based upon money used in that a person starting a course or intensive debited from their account. At that time as Lucy commented the unused monies would be in the account.

    This changed with the FBO change in the 73-75 era. All orgs were to go to the FBO system where all money was banked and the FBO determined the “allocation” to be given for FP based upon income planning, promo, stats, etc. Theoretically the FBO could on some weeks give the org FP more than they collected that week. Great idea except no one really tracked unused AP’s (advanced payments.)

    Then tech call-in was put in to get the unused AP’s on account down so there wouldn’t be refunds/repayments, etc. Fast forward almost 40 years and we have millions of unused AP’s. That is why they are available for debit for books, meters, etc. Easy credit just made it worse because a public could pay with money they didn’t actually have, org’s could spend that money before they delivered so they had not really exchanged for it either, and then the psychosis of forcing all to re-buy their materials (including now hundreds of lectures), forced donations to be eligible to use your unused advanced payments and we have a very upside down financial scene. Even the FBO system is abused with no functioning FBO posted in many (possibly most) orgs. And now we have an entirely independent money suck machine – the IAS and Ideal Org dono programs.

    LRH or MSH would be raising hell for endangering all of Scientology with this mismanagement. This is a total FUBAR scene (FUBAR is an acronym that originated in the military to stand for the words ‘f***ed up beyond all repair/recognition.’. Slang irreparably damaged or bungled.)

  229. It is kind of like someone on ESMB and WWP said regarding this BLOG.

    So if you want to know the answer, you might want to go over there and catch up.

    Marty’s reporting is really good on a lot of people leaving the church that wish for this fact to be known. Kay is impressive, because she is a very honest person because she went and took out a loan to get into the church in the first place. That shows integrity.

    What people’s tone levels or what you are talking about has to do with that…my C/S for you…50 sit ups and 3 miles a day. 🙂

  230. Kay, thank you for your very informative write up!!
    You rock. We love to have you part of this group and I wish to meet and hug you soon!!
    Well Done!!

    Silvia Kusada

  231. Instead of answering a simple question about your case level, you choose to continue stirring up the very blog where (according to you) the answers are found. You’re very good as most other paid instigators were disclosed a lot faster.

  232. 29? I’m pretty sure that’s not what DM claimed in the last edition of “Can We Ever Be Friends”. Oh well.

    I’m 33. Is that young enough for you? 8)

  233. Hmmm. “Effect on others, no effect on self”……

    How compulsively at cause can one be? And how much of a games condition is that?

    Here’s song for you Raul:

  234. Not that I have anything against Texans, per se, but as a Jayhawker I can’t wait for a rematch with the Longhorns (spit) in the Big 12 Tournament, and hopefully, the Final Four.

  235. Well, it’s a point off the subject, but interesting. I wonder if he ever got his dictionaries back. Thanks for the information.

  236. Well, how funny. In 1984 when I joined the Sea Org, I was zipped up “over the rainbow” to the enigmatic Int Base. A year before, down in Austin where I was on staff, Monica Grannis had told me about the Int Base as an “ideal scene” where staff applied Scientology full time. I thought in terms of my staff career, going “over the rainbow” would be the idea solution. Instead of having to maintain an outside job and a place to live while on staff. I could simply focus on expanding Scientology full time with other like minded Scientologists. Perfect, right?
    Wrong. I got in a van and was taken up to the Int Base one night. Before we left, the driver checked for any bombs or electronic tracking devices under the van. Midway we stopped in a parking lot at a grocery store and on command switched vehicles to an older-model street van driven by a guy who said his name was Sarge. More than once I looked back to see if anyone was tailing us to this super-secret Int Base.
    We got to the base at night and I remember the thrill as I arrived, seeing this oasis in the high desert, palm trees lit from beneath in the main entrance. I was HOME! Against all odds, I had made it to the top of Scientology.
    My excitement didn’t last long because it ran smack into the reality of hell on earth.
    Eileen Champaign met me at CMO Int and gave me a brief tour. Then she set out to find me a place to sleep. She tried one room — a men’s dorm. But the guy there was unfriendly and refused to let me sleep there. You know, I kind of thought people would be happy to see a new face, but not so. I mean, that’s how we acted towards visitors in Austin, at the Class V org. And that’s how we acted in Dallas at the Mission when I was on staff there. When someone new arrived, people were actually happy to meet them.
    I was taken out to a place called the “G’s” (the base had years before been a resort, so had little motel units all across the property. They were designated by either a name, or a letter). It was just past midnight and someone there said, yes there was an empty bunk. But finding sheets was a problem. They found some.
    It was very hot there. Over 95 degrees. I asked about the air conditioning. There wasn’t any. I looked for a fan. There wasn’t one. And the room was full of mosquitoes.
    Great. I’m one of those people that mosquitoes travel down from Alaska to see. So after having them buzz in my ears, I eventually pulled the sheets up over my head and tried to sleep that way. As people wandered in after midnight, no one was friendly. No one was happy to see a new face. If anything, they seemed to resent my presence, maybe because that meant now there were 16 people having to share one bathroom instead of just 15. I was in the desert, on the top bunk of a room next to the hot ceiling still radiating heat from the day with no A/C, surrounded by unfriendly people, with not even a fan, sweat pouring off me, mosquitoes swarming. This was crazy.
    Now I’m not trying to cry victim. That’s not the point at all. The point is that this place was not a model of people applying Scientology.
    At breakfast the next morning, there were two people standing up while they ate. I asked and Eileen told me they were in lower conditions. Great. If you are in lower conditions you have to withstand public humiliation? Where is that in policy? I knew it didn’t exist in policy. Ethics, LRH said was a personal thing. Here, apparently it meant public humiliation. They ate with their heads down, looking at no one.
    Eileen cautioned me not to look at David Miscavige or the Int Execs if they came in unless they spoke to me. If they spoke to me, I was to stand up and give my name.
    That day I got a full tour of the base including LRH’s actual home, Bonnieview where he actually lived for a short while. David Miscavige had it leveled in the 1990s. I have heard since then that this was the last place Suzette Hubbad saw her dad. I went into every office and met every single person. Few people looked up or even smiled. They were in fear. They acted like prisoners. No… they acted like slaves.
    The Int base was a slave ship.
    More to come.

  237. Well, to cut a long story short, I made a strong decision I was getting out of there as fast as possible. And I did, I got myself traded for a Class XII auditor at Flag — he went to CMO Int and I went to Flag and became the Solo I/C. But it was very real that being in the Sea Org, I either had to agree to live like a slave or be free. I decided at that time that according to even the most fundamental Scientology principles… such as the eight dynamics, a group of slaves would never be able to clear the planet. So I decided to reject the slavery and live according to fundamental Scientology. So for the next couple of years, I had a blast. I expanded the Solo area from 6 to 11 people and we were booming. At our zenith, we had 90 people onlines either on course or moving up the OT levels from Solo to OT III. In the evenings after post, we’d go do something fun like go to the beach, or go swimming, or go dancing. I brought out my ski boat from Dallas and sometimes before post, we’d go skiing along the causeway throwing a rooster tail on the Sandcastle patio. Life was good. Being in the Sea Org was an adventure.
    LRH always said, “If it’s not fun, it’s not Scientology.” And I took him at his word.
    Sure we played hard, but we worked even harder. In fact, we were booming. While running the Solo line, I even went into the TTC parttime and got up through Class IV and started auditing in the Case Cracking Unit because they needed help.
    We went dancing. We won awards. We saw movies. In short, we had a life like any normal human being would. Was it possible to be a Sea Org member and not be PTS? It was an experiment and the experiment worked.
    However, one day while on libs I went out to buy a motorcycle.
    I left my ski boat mored by the Sandcastle and that day a storm came up. By some fluke, my boat sank in about 6 feet of water.
    When I got back with my new motorcycle at the end of the day, someone (probaby Dave Englehart) told me — “Hey, your boat sank today!” Oh crap.
    So I went out there and luckily some decent souls had somehow pulled it out of the water and gotten it on shore. I never knew who rescued my boat and never got to thank them. I have often wondered who saved it and what happened.
    The boat sat for a year while I saved up some money and eventually I got it restored, better than it had ever been. And we did lots more skiing.
    So now, 25 years later — Hey Scott, thanks for saving my boat! You are hearby highly commended once again for showing initiative, taking charge and demonstrating competence.
    And you know, I still have that boat today though it needs to be restored. (The years sitting in a parking lot while at Int until 2004 took it’s toll). But one day I will restore it yet again.

  238. Chuck,

    It is the blue binders from Pubs I’m talking about. I don’t have any hidden data line that’s not in those volumes.

    It was never a popular bookstore item, and I’ve never seen them in any Qual Library in any org either.

  239. Scott, It was my boat. See above!!

  240. Dear Kay,
    Wonderful to see you! I met you in AOLA when you did your OT Levels. I was the Chief Off then. Nice to see you made it through. Now lets get the show on the road outside! Get in touch if you want at dominicnobrien at gmail.com.
    Love, Dominic

  241. How funny. I also remember all those dictionaries at Flag with “Brice” written in black magic marker on the side!

  242. SA,

    Ain’t that the truth!

    My usual spot to read this blog is in my study, where I can turn my head to the right and see a large LRH library collected over 25 years. The only thing missing is the red vols.

    I have copies of Basic books from the 70’s, 90’s and now DM’s latest set. And I have a feeling they are going to be very useful in the coming months, old friends are going to want to make comparisons 🙂

  243. Jeanie and Mike? Yes, I know them well.

    Mike recruited me for the SO first time round, he was Flag Rep AF and I joined the FR network, that would have been around ’88. A few years later he went “uplines” and I’ve had no contact with him since.

    Jeanie held the post of CO FOLO sometime around ’93 or so, and the ED of my org and I had a game we played with her. In meetings, we’d switch to speaking Afrikaans – he’s native Afrikaans, I’m bilingual, and Jeanie didn’t understand a word of what we were saying. It used to drive her nuts, especially when the only words she knew in one enormous sentence was “Birthday Game”. But she took it well.

    Ah, those were the days, the days when management terminals were still sane.

  244. Erwin:

    I would prefer to keep the details of my auditing and training and where gotten and from whom and when to myself at the moment.

    I think that when people stop make accusations of people being spies for OSA or 1.1 people, then real communication MAY be possible.

    But that is not a given. Being in the Church of Scientology as long as some of the people on this BLOG were can, does and has adversely impacted their lives.

  245. Lucy,
    Advanced payments stay on the person’s “account” on paper, but the actual money goes to the bank. Each week financial planning is done using the money that came in (after certain things like book money comes “off the top”. Also, if a refund is requested, that money is “set aside” and cannot be spent in the weekly financial planning.

    So, no, the org does not “set aside” money that was paid in by the person, until it is used. THe org’s spend their money each week. That is also why Kay’s policy references about Building Fund etc are also important.

    You also said:
    “I also thought that any monies sitting on account were not spent in case you had refunds (repayments of unused funds).”
    The answer to that one is that according to LRH policy, orgs are supposed to DELIVER the services; in fact, the whole org is supposed to be a “delivery machine” not a “GI machine” covered in policy called “the Reason for ORgs” and in many other policies. Otherwise, yes, they might have to pay back the money. And if the refund request comes in, the refund amount has to “come off the top” before the org’s financial planning can be done for the week.

    Sorry I do not have access to all the policy references. The financial policies mostly in VOl 3 and Mgmt Vol of the OEC volumes are really great, clear, simple, and very sane. Maybe you could get access to them. THey can be applied to a person or business too.

  246. Hi Kay. My name is Raul Batista as you may have guessed but just to give you a head up…

    The poster that posts by the name of J.R. is actually Claire Swazey, a woman, that comes here to Marty’s BLOG and engages in all manner of subterfuges and then runs back to ESMB {the Ex Scientologist Message Board} and “apparently isn’t 3rd partying anyone between the 2 boards”.

    It is horrendous.

  247. To me that is unusual, because she has posted almost 14,000 individual comments on ESMB but when she comes here she used a different name.

    I just thought I’d tell you. It made me weary the other day dealing with children like this.


    Look in the right hand corner under top posters. Claire Swazey uses the posting nickname Voltaire’s Child. I just had to out somebody! 🙂

  248. Claire went to an Event and filmed Miscavige being on the inside of the tarp making a mockery out of his security.

    You Sir are a failfag

  249. You must be very proud of yourself

  250. Raul,

    I never suspected you of being an OSA op.

    Merely an annoyance at best or a troll at worst.

    Now I’m certain by this post of yours.

    That you are *definitely* working for OSA.

    Anyway if there was a “kill file” on Marty’s blog you’d qualify.

    BTW say hi to Bill Yaude for me.

  251. Welcome Kay to Freedom!!
    Thanks for sharing all the out points you saw. Hopefully it will help others really take a look at what’s actually going in the church…. complete craziness!!!

  252. I used to be the new version of the old but now I’m the old version of the new… 😉

  253. Hello Kay! Nice to meet ya! 🙂

  254. Tony I will salute you from The Netherlands. I hope you have a big gathering so the PI’s can have a good paycheck to bring home to the wife and kids. That is if anyone would have them;)

  255. “Techies” have an understanding on the PAB’s, Therein is a lot of Psychology embedded. Even some Psychiatry. Read them it’s a must.

    It can define why and what he is. What motivates him. Öut”him as an “SP” if you will.

    He rather have them out or neutralised.

  256. Pingback: Why it is an overt to join staff in the Church of $. « SILVIA KUSADA's Blog

  257. Actually it’ll cover they’re alimony and child support.

    Leaving just enough to pay for a hooker at the Mustang Ranch on the way back.

  258. Niels, really wish you could make it.

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