The following interview may be of interest. It ran on CBC this morning throughout Canada. The interview begins at minute TWO and runs up to just past minute ELEVEN. You may want to hang onto this link. It might be the most accurate, brief sum up of life at the International Headquarters of the Church of Scientology Inc to date. It also gives perhaps the most fair treatment of Scientology Inc’s actual response to my statements of facts. Could serve as a good educational piece if you can pursuade someone to take ten minutes to learn what really goes in the world of Miscavge.
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Marty – Very competent summary. I’ll definitely share the link with my contacts.
I wish Tommy could see that protecting and covering up the crimes committed by Miscavige is not a very smart strategy, despite DETAILED specifics from numerous people around the world regarding rampant human rights violations in his “church”.
Miscavige must scare the pee out of the poor boy.
Marty, well done! it is time for these so-called attorneys to come down. I would guess their pockets are well lined. As far as TD well same ole same ole.
Tommy Davis told them that “the game of musical chairs never became violent”.
So by that record it was still played. How do you explain that one away?
Tommy Davis seriously doesn’t understand that the statement he was quoted in this interview is as unbelievable to hear as when he said there is no such policy that dictates who a Scientologist should or shouldn’t be connected to. There has been a tremendous effort in the church to NOT discuss that point and to quickly say that he corrected himself on that. Really? All I heard was him say there was no such policy in our church on disconnection. That communication blew power out at the mainframe. That electrifying lie is in a whole different league than the one the church has pushed tirelessly about Mark and Marty’s denials of cob’s physical abuses. Tommy your lie was our shot heard ’round the world.
Talk about the pot calling the kettle black – Tommy you have the entire world-wide Scientology membership to confront on YOUR head. YOU KNOW the ref exists that absolutely mandates disconnection! You can wish that time puts distance and distance creates amnesia apparently that people will not remember that you told the world this datum!! Wake the hell UP man! Do you NOT see that you, like Marty and Mike were, were in a position where you had to tell this lie because you were under order to do so?!!!
I see the day when Tommy will reveal that he was under the pressure and force that he felt threatened his spiritual future so greatly that he lied to the press about disconnection, an enforced action HCOs and CSes have forced on to people or else they will not be allowed to do Scientology services and will be declared themselves if they do not disconnect.
There are the facebook nazi’s within Scientology who have been given the JOB to use facebook as a means to enforce disconnection!!! This is a big WIN for OSA I’m SURE to be able to not only avoid being connected to this enforcement of disconnection. The church has shamelessly manipulated the way to use the public in a far greater number than ever before to do their dirty work. IT’S THE WILL OF OUR PARISHONERS…WE’RE NOT ENFORCING DISCONNECTION!!!
This past week saw such disconnection being enforced when a freedom medal winner got declared SP – the facebook nazi’s were on facebook to find and tell every Scientologist on her friends list that she had been declared sp for going to a squirrel group and to remove her from friends lists!!! and she wasn’t the ONLY one this happened to this past week!!!
No such policy on disconnection – REALLY!!!!
Tommy and cob – as a long-time trained OT – you really think that it mattered what the details were about that musical chairs dramatization? the mere fact that you admit it happened is enough to shatter my illusions of sanity and stability at Int management man. Further, Tommy and cob, Who exactly IS your target audience because it sure as hell isn’t the Scientologists I’ve known over the last 3 decades. Maybe it’s that 29 year old average aged crowd that’s replace the old guys? The new crowd who haven’t done any Bridge or who haven’t become hatted for their posts or who have never done their staff status checksheets and if they have are so full of mis-Us, verbal and false data they must think the study of policy must just be an historical, background data, not-used-anymore refs as opposed to them defining the boundaries and responsibilities as a group member or better even yet it’s those who have no idea whatsoever who Heber Jentzsch is or who Marty or Mike were/are and who have never worked to make a St Hill Sized Org, right?!
I saw it said a while back that the more Tommy talks the better it is for the Independent field – he did not disppoint here did he.
Marty it was as reassuring to hear you speak in this show as it’s always been for me.
Contrasting your competent, lucid commentary with the church’s flat out denial of anything and everything would be amusing……if it didn’t involve the fact of such entheta actions from DM.
I promise that the public at large (uh oh…a generality), probably hear the Tommy Davis crap at the end and scratch their heads.
Marty – great interview!
Quite amusing and non-original response from the footnukemen – TD and Dear Leader in which evidence abounds contrary to their statements!
+ DM never hit anyone, Marty nor Mike.(Read the stack of affidavits by Kool Aid drinkers!)
+ No one was ever detained at Gold Base. Blown for good never happened!
+ Musical Chairs happened but there was no violence. What about Musical Chairs being a High Crime and suppressive act in Policy?
+ No one threatened with familial Disconnection. Which does contrast with the earlier statement on AC 360 by both TD and MY Shyster of Disconnection not existing.
Nicely done. The walls are crumbling more and more every day. The world is seeing the Church of Scientology for what it is.
Marty, that was great. You were very well spoken, thoughtful and articulate. It’s nice having the truth on your side.
On the other hand, the last 30 seconds of the broadcast (relating to Scientology) we listen to Tommy Davis’s canned denials read by the host. It’s starting to sound very lackluster and ho-hum. It’s spoken “copy-pasta” or as Miscavige likes to say, “just add water and mix”.
It seems they’re having to combat so much negative press that they’ve exhausted their creativity in the area. At least let’s hope so.”
Direct download link for offline use:
[audio src="http://thumbnails.cbc.ca/maven_legacy/thumbnails/February_19,_2011_-_Day_6_(55).mp3" /]
Wow Troubleshooter! I hear you. I have the same vehemence on Tommy Davis’s lie. You are right: It is the shot heard around the world. It started me on a path that culminated in a huge win today. I just heard back from an attorney I have been dealing with for a while now. THERE IS SOMETHING THAT CAN BE DONE ABOUT DISCONNECTION.
I vowed the day after Tommy (There is no Disconnection) Davis’s lie to never rest until Disconnection was handled. I now have the way to do that. Not knowing anything about websites, somehow I set one up for Moms-Against-Disconnection. I don’t know enough about computers to do any more with that website than what was done that day, so I haven’t touched it since then. But I did not stop pursuing what could be done about Disconnection as a subject. I now have a legal strategy for handling it, and WILL pursue it until the Church TRULY cancels disconnection. A side product of that will be the cancellation of Suppressive Person Declares.
TOMMY DAVIS, YOU LIED ONE TIME TOO MANY.
CATHERINE VON ACH
ONE MAD MOTHER!
FOUNDER OF MOMS-AGAINST-DISCONNECTION
MOTHER OF CHASE HUNTER VON ACH
WHO IS SO INTIMIDATED BY THE CHURCH OF SCIENTOLOGY THAT HE CAN’T EVEN LIST ME AS HIS REAL MOTHER ON HIS FACEBOOK PAGE! THERE IS NO DISCONNECTION? YOU’RE RIGHT, WHEN I GET THROUGH WITH YOU YOU WON’T BE LYING ANYMORE WHEN YOU SAY THAT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Nice interview Marty. I did save it because it is short, sweet and to the point.It is goingto be good for dissemination.
Boy, Tommy really did a Sargeant Shultz there: “Zis deed not oppen, zis is nut true, nutzing oppen! Nobody zaw nutzing! Nicht!!
Direct, on message and focused = Marty
Ostrich in the sand = Tommy
It’s always amazed me how the ostrich approach to life is sadly so prevalent and so incredibly unworkable.
But, what seems to be happening is there is less and less sand and eventually the poor wittle ostrich will not have any choice but to see what’s around him.
That could cause a serious meltdown. Best for Tommy to poke his head out bit by bit … less trauma.
Who’s the declared freedom medal winner?
Marty, that was a wonderful interview. So calm, so clear, so sincere. Very different from the canned denials of Tommy Davis. Can’t believe he admitted to the Musical Chairs Incident happening! Wow! That is progress. Getting them to admit that some part of it is true. It is truly baffling to me that Tommy Davis and Company would believe that admitting that it happened, that people would believe that the violence didn’t happen. LRH wrote about people accepting a statement as true, when there is a partial truth in it they recognize. So for the Church to admit that it happened paves the way for people to accept the whole story as true, which it is. This is the same thing that happened when they admitted to violence on the Int Base; that it was done only by you and others, not David Miscavige. Like anyone would believe that, after they admitted that violence occurred. To me that proves LRH’s theory that the Reactive Mind is irrational. To me, these people, David Miscavige and Tommy Davis, are just animated Reactive Minds in full play, like the latest Lady Gaga CD. They just got out of their eggs a few days ago. The difference is Lady Gaga knows what she is doing and is making millions . . . . oh, now that I think about it, maybe not so different. . . . . .
Great interview, Marty! I loved the interest level between the interviewer and interviewee (is that a word?). I also enjoyed the “ho-hum, what else is new?” attitude of the interviewer while he read the end statements. H
The CBC link works, but as of 5:05 pm U.S. Central Standard time the clip won’t load. Maybe someone is DOS’ing their clip?
Link from Zhent offering a direct download link makes me nervous.
Cool Marty, very cool!
Beautiful appearance, clear, sharp and easy to follow. Leaves no doubt in the listeners, corroborates their suspicion and allows truth to see the light of day. Any doubt the Church might want to cast at your character or reliability you can now counter with the question: If my accusations are false, why then does the Church, famous for its history of aggressive litigation, not sue me for libel?
To the general public it would confirm you’re right and Kool Aiders, finding out you’re not even being sued, may start thinking that something is wrong because they’ve been crush regged to attack you for your Kingpin crimes. They may even harbor some hope that they won’t get sued when following your lead.
Ok, it’s working now. I’m not sure what was going on. Maybe a lot of people are listening.
Tommy Davis always says you are “discredited”, but I wish someone would ask where, how and when this “discredit” occured.
Maybe that word doesn’t mean what he thinks it means.
Great interview. Cool, calm , collected and just reporting the facts.
On a different note, has anyone here gotten their IAS money returned? If you don’t want to post the info here, email Carol Kramer at
email@example.com She’ll let me know.
Thanks for the link just listened to the interview – Marty you were your usual cool Joe self – can’t wait to take my family of eight to Casablanca man! But I have my program and am making progress! Tommy – game’s over man! By now you probably know you’re covering up for a criminal madman – you should watch Fun with Dick & Jane because you’re starting to sound like Dick Harper in that movie!! Anyhow, don’t be the spokesliar for a mafia like organization.
Indeed not that much difference, only Lady Gaga has a voice, creativity, freedom, popularity, acceptability, showmanship, friendship, sex, truth, rhythm, reach, aesthetics, ability and no speech impediment, no violence, no vampires, no theta sucking, no idle cathedrals, no disconnection, no suppression, no reverse technology, no OSA harem, no guns, no pimped hangars, no motor cycles, no strings, no abortions, no broken families and then some. And apart from the fact that people go see her voluntarily they’re for the rest pretty much the same.
Yes – that didn’t escape me, either. Davis acknowledged that this sick game was played.
Nice interview Marty. Clean, factual and concise. Your perseverance is appreciated.
I heard it live as it broadcast (I’m Canadian… was looking forward to it) and was not disappointed. Awesome summary, Marty. Way to go.
TD admits that the musical chair incident — which all eye wintesses attest happened in the hole — did take place ” it just never turned violent”.
But then he claims there was no detention and no hole.
Can’t have it both ways.
But at least TD got a half truth out (that there was a musical chair incident) so we all could now see that the rest he said is a lie.
(………..Bahgdad Bob most be TDs OL….and TD clearly is a quick study)
Probably the most despicable thing anyone could do is to deny a mother of her child – or vice versa. We’ve all experienced disconnection in some way. It is so destructive and completely unnecessary. Facebook “enforcers” in the words of Hancock “… You’re all idiots!”
thank you for your courage and integrity.
One word to Tommy D. :
Great post TS!!
Must be Bunny, she spoke out a bit ago on this blog.
Great job Iceman!!
Calm, cool and collected.
I would love to see you debate tommy davis mano y mano. He would crack like an egg.
Wow, that’s inspirational Lady Minn!!!
I’m so, so sorry that you are having to experience this with your son right now. I can’t wait to here of your success. It’s because of the disconnection-which-doesn’t-exist-when-you’re-on-national-tv-but-does-exist-in-the-church policy that I haven’t come out yet. I’m working in the direction of being free of the entanglements to openly embrace the Independents as a group dedicated to keeping LRH’s tech alive.
There are a few who know who I am. I apologize to so many of you that I would like to talk with. I don’t mean to be rude or to convey doubts or lack of support by remaining nameless for now. I’m not afraid. I’m not in doubt. Ethics is a personal thing. I am being sensitive to the relationships in my life that need to be nurtured in the direction to the point of making a self-determined decision to leave D.Monology. It is my intention to see all of us out from under the suppression of the church as it exists and has operated for some time now.
The church will NOT be given the opportunity to destroy anymore lives of those I love by enforcing but not-really the disconnection-which-doesn’t-exist-when-you’re-on-national-tv-but-does-exist-in-the-church policy.
Disconnection in my mind has created a massive case phenomena of disassociation from ones dynamics. The “we’re not really our bodies so they aren’t really your parents and breaking up families is not really happening because there’s really no such thing as families” philosophy was NOT what I signed up for.
Lady Minn you have my appreciation and respect for what has clearly been initiative that makes you a real asset to KSW. I see you and your son happily together again soon!!
Marty, good job on the interview, very concise and complete.
The Church is all about spin. They simply deny any and all charges, and thereafter refer to those charges as “disproven.” They denigrate anyone speaking out, and thereafter refer to those people as “discredited” Well, no one “discredited” them but the Church! And no one “disproved” anything, the Church simply denied it!
The good thing is, I believe people are starting to see this spin for what it is.
Catherine, remind me not to piss you off ok??
I know that I have said that to other women on this blog, but it has been true in all instances. There are some feisty women on this blog!!
Point well taken. They are very different. When I started writing that, i was thinking about any CD, you just turn it on and it plays the same thing over and over. So, the initial concept was a piece of automated audio, not any particular performer. I actually admire what Lady Gaga has done in terms of engaging peoples’ interest, but do feel her music is very copycat Madonna at times. I actually loved her dress/costume at the Grammy’s and thought the choreography was well done for her and her dancers. So I do apologize for comparing her to DM and TC; there is a huge difference and I thank you for making that differentiation. We all help each other on this blog, and correct each other when it needs to be done, and for that you have my gratitude for your willingness to speak out when I made an A=A generality.
Yes Tony, and yet there’s more –
The church apparently declared her and then (per the facebook nazi who sent me another message) said OOOOPs, not true! Apparently the church was a bit too fast to pull the trigger on that one, got caught with their pants down! I don’t know how their going to explain it! “We declared her but didn’t find out the facts before we did – ooops! HEY LOOK OVER THERE!” She was falsely declared! but only after hundreds of her fb friends had bailed. But that’s NOT because there’s ANY such thing as disconnection, nope, not true, they left becaussssssssss um, HEY LOOK OVER THERE!
It was winning this weeks HOW TO VIOLATE LRH POLICY award but then we heard today that Tommy denied that there was any violence in the musical chair thing and well what can I say – that pretty much trumps someone being declared and undeclared with evidence that they didn’t even talk to the person before they promoted her declare.
LOL…I was laughing at that screw up too. They have been denying that story the whole time and now Tommy the spokeshole for the CULT says “it never turned violent”! Another footbullet for ya Tommy. Please continue to fuck up, it’s amuses me so.
Crazy Rabbit (Bunny Dubin)
Her husband Dennis was instrumental in safepointing the Freewinds if I remember correctly.
Tommy’s almost admission really has nothing to do with Scientology ( see Glutz PR) and is what the spooks call a “Limited Hangout”.
Basically yeah it’s true but it wasn’t really that bad.
Hoping that the Congressional Committee will move on or in this case the public in general.
Funny thing it “works” with anyone without an enquiring mind or lacks a mind in general or who really digs Koolaid.
Any one can go talk to Marty in person if they so wish, and see for them selves what kind of person he is. But WHERE is David Miscavige? Why is he HIDING? Why can he not speak for himself? Why are his lawyers impotent in preventing discussion of his CRIMES?
Brilliant synopsis Marty.
Tommy Davis, is a lying sack of shit.
Here is the text of the email Karry and I received from Karry’s mom soon after I came out on your blog:
“I have just found out that you have publicly aligned yourselves with the Marty Rathbun.
I cannot tell you just how disappointed I am with the both of you.
What did you think would happen to our relationship?
Until you come to your senses, please do not contact me again. And then only through OSA, please.
The whole family knows.
Of course, it does not effect Scott and his relationship with his family, but your family, Karry—really!
It was great having you as a daughter this lifetime and maybe we can pick you up in the future.
You can tell the kids—I will truly miss them—that we have moved away. I may even be able to send them cards for their birthday’s, but I will need to be very sure they have not also disaffected. I will check with OSA on that point.
I am still stunned to think that this would not affect our relationship. What was all that BS on Wed. evening? How could I care about any of your overts—they are so little and in the past. The rest of the evening was just natter and a good sec check could handle that.”
She signed her name and that was that.
On the Wed. evening that she refers to, Karry and I both told her our entire life histories and experiences (It actually lasted all day and into the evening) – no holds barred. She was very understanding and supportive and told us that she would always love us and never disconnect from us.
Days later, one word from the church and Karry’s entire family (via her mom) disconnects from us.
Since that time Karry’s mom attempted to visit our kids unannounced. She wanted her own access to them without us being involved.
Karry wouldn’t even let her into the house. Although she did let the kids come out and see her.
This was Karry’s response to that visit:
I am so disappointed that you came to my house unannounced yesterday. Let me remind you that you disconnected from us (see below). Myself, Scott and the kids are a family. You disconnect from us, you disconnect from our whole family, including the kids. You cannot have it both ways. We told the kids that you moved away like you requested and then you show up unannounced at our door? Playing on the kids emotions and making them cry like that is NOT OK. So until you come to your senses, please do not contact us again. And then only through our attorney, please.
As my buddy Gary Webber says, “Thank god we all found what we were looking for” (you included in that “we”). Thanks for what you do, Marty.
And Mosey, Thank You again for saving Marty for us.
Thanks for doing that interview. So concise. The interviewer was good and his summation of Tommy’s reply had me laughing.
Great speaking. Your honesty is so refreshing to hear.
I longer range would love to see official Scientology admitting their faults and being so honest publicly.
It’s painful to witness official Scientology’s lying.
When the St. Pete Times series first ran, my immediate suggestion was for Miscavige to do the right thing, and admit his part in the climate of violence and apologize. That’s what he should have done.
Now, instead, he’s got a chain of lying and a chain of others lying for him.
Official Scientology’s “Glutz PR” lying just entrenches their vulnerability.
DM needs to admit and apologize for his violence and mistakes, give authority to manage fully back to WDC and Exec Strata and Int Coord Council, and Miscavige should just simply leave the movement (after returning ALL of the material perks and wealth he’s accumulated unethically during his tenure as non standard dictator).
What say we start with this one for Ol’ Davey boy and Lyin’ Tommy D:
FLAG ORDER 2722
5 February 1971
A Sea Org member is expected to be able to do any duty assigned.
This means trained or not, hatted or not.
This is the Competence expected on any post or at any time.
A Sea Org Member is expected to get things done, with or without orders.
If a Sea Org Member cannot set up, organize and perform any duty required he is open to a charge of STUPIDITY.
There is a point where Stupidity ends and Treason begins.
Any failure to handle a situation brings about this charge.
Reported to the MAA, where it is clearly proven that a situation remained unhandled or was mishandled and loss or damage of any kind occurred, a Court of Ethics must be convened and if guilty the offender is fined a minimum of a week’s pay and bonuses and a maximum of a month’s pay.
Repeating Offenders may be sent by a Court to the Fitness Board.
L. RON HUBBARD
Is that gentle enough for ya’, boys?
Wow. What a story. Gotta respect Karry and Scott.
Check your email.
Huge respect Bro and to his hard headed woman.
If you read the churches response (Tommy Davis) in the St. Petersburg times truth rundown, he has never denied that Musical Chairs happened. Which was one of the red flags that caught the attention of in the fold SCN’s at the time and actually got them to look for more data. Tommy also admits that group confessions are a part of the tech, and it is standard practice as well.
Damn. That’s pretty rough. I think I would prefer the headlock and you rearranging the furniture with my lifeless body.
Tony, yes, I get a little sudden, as Sarge would put it, when I get reminded of Tommy Davis and and his international lies. That CNN broadcast was national AND the International Edition. So, if Tommy Davis is willing to get up on International TV, along with Monique Yingling, and lie about Disconnection, I am willing to say what I say on Marty’s International Edition of Moving On Up a Little Higher. And it is International; people from Europe, South Africa, all over the U.S., Canada, you name it, they are here. With all the suffering that I have had, and that my son has had, and that others have had over Disconnection, there is nothing that gets me going like being reminded about that night when I heard those words. The people who were there who witnessed it, (me watching that show) will never forget it, either. This brings the “Commando Girl” out in me. Just so you don’t worry, you were one of the ones, along with Tom Martiniano, that I imagined would join me on the Airborne Rangers/Special Forces/Delta Force raid on the Int Base that I fantasized about a day or two ago on this blog. Sinar reminded us that we have to follow the law, and do this legal like. I guess I was into “the law West of the Pecos”, when I wrote about that. Anyway, just so you know, Sinar, I am doing this the right way, and have one of the most pre-eminent lawyers in the U.S. who is helping me with this Disconnection thing. I promise that I will do this in the manner that LRH prescibed, in the “Introduction to Scientology Ethics” book, the blue One before the Basics green one, at the end of the chapter entitled, ironically, “PTSNESS AND DISCONNECTION:
“Nothing in this material ever or under any circumstances justify any violations of the laws of the land. Any such offense shall subject the offender to penalties described by law as well as justice and ethics actions.” Since I wrote a very pointed letter to the DSA Austin and the CJC PAC that they needed to adhere to this policy as regards activites involving me and son, I guess it is only right to practice what I preach.
I am a very easy going person and it takes a lot to piss me off, years of abuse actually, and Tony, I don’t think there is anything you would ever do to get me there. Thanks for your acknowledgement and all your support.
Smashing interview Marty! Thanks for speaking up in Canada. Now that you’ve broken the ice…let me be the first to dub thee an Honourary Canuck.
I think Marty just demonstrated a perfect flyby. I am sure it wasn’t coffee that wet their clothes!
Marty, minor correction. Please post this one.
Tangentially connected to this subject.
In media interviews, when asked why one didn’t leave after being subject to C of S abuse, a typical response has been “I didn’t want to lose my eternity” – or some such with no further explanation.
When the respondent then does not go on to elucidate how his eternity could be taken away by the Church of Scientology, it creates an out-reality with the listening or viewing public. The public must think, “What a bunch of idiots, how could they think anyone could take their eternity away?”
When asked this question in the future, we must explain that by leaving the church, we are made to believe that we will not be allowed to progress any further in our Scientology Training and Processing – and also not be allowed to use Scientology Auditing techniques to help others.
It must be explained that Scientologists feel that they need to complete their Scientology Training and Processing and use it to help others in order to ensure their future spiritual freedom – for eternity. And that they are put under threat of not being able to do this if they leave the C of S – thus compelling them to stay.
It is a classic cult technique, the cult makes one feel inadequate in some way, and then inculcates in the member the certainty that the cult is the only organization that can help the member overcome the perceived inadequacy – and that if the member leaves that the inadequacy will remain unhandled and lead to the member’s ultimate downfall.
Viola’ – Cult Member who will not leave no matter what.
If we are to be effective in communicating our message Via mass media channels, we must be clear in explaining that we are not a Cult and that no individual and no organization has the power to take anyone’s eternity away by denying them access to anything, including L. Ron Hubbard’s technology of spiritual freedom.
Just thought I’d mention that.
It doesn’t work with trained LRH Data Series Evaluators. They just go out and get better investigators and better, sharper lawyers!
Another fantasy: When you look up “Glutz PR” in the new Indie Admin Dictionary, you see Tommy Davis pic, the one angrily screaming and pointing his finger at BBC journalist John Sweeney.
Tommy Davis told them that “the game of musical chairs never became violent”.
Tommy, NEWS for you – musical chairs isn’t and has never been a “game” and don’t disgrace yourself by stating that lie. Go to cramming after ethics – better yet LEAVE and then get some ethics handling and cramming.
HCO PL 29 July 71 Why Hatting? (fair use quotes)
“Observation: PEOPLE HATE TO LOSE THEIR POSTS AND JOBS. THEY FIND IT DEGRADING.”
HCO PL 16 September 1970 ETHICS AND PERSONNEL (fair use quotes)
“Beingness is valuable.
A post or job is enormously valuable. Even the most minor post has a status value.”
HCO PL 14 December 1970 (fair use quotes)
“INSANITY IS A REFUSAL TO ALLOW OTHERS TO BE, DO OR HAVE.”
HCO PL 13 July 1974 WORKING INSTALLATIONS (fair use quotes)
“A stupid or suppressive personnel person will tear up Div A to get personnel for Div B.
The correct action is to find extra or new people for the new action.
MUSICAL CHAIRS (transfers of persons around an org) is THE SINGLE MOST DESTRUCTIVE ACTION TO AN ORG’S STATS.”
I think I have made my point for now. The admission of this is an admission of the suppression at the highest levels or the organization. This is not my, nor our, statements. This is directly from the International spokesman for the Church. How sad the level of degradation of an organization that LRH created and had the intention that it should carry forth and change the world for the better. It is destroying itself from the inside out and the world gets to witness it.
Scott, thank you for sharing those painful moments with us. Please keep copies of all that correspondence. It is EVIDENCE of Disconnection and it’s effects on families and children. In fact please send it to:
3112 Windsor Road
Austin, Texas 78703
It will be very useful in the fight against Disconnection.
Catherine von Ach
P.S. Any others of you having such evidence of disconnection please send as above, if you wish to join the cause of ending this cruel, vicious and unnatural practice. There are ways to make Disconnection actionable under the law as “causes of action”. Why else would Tommy Davis and Monique Yingling (David Miscavige personal ATTORNEY) lie about doing it on National and International TV? Saying it is “voluntary”. Why do you think they have been locking up SP Declares and showing them by appointment only with Ethics Officers and M/AA’s? (No copies given) And NOT showing them to the persons about whom they are written? LRH says in Data Series 37 “WHYS OPEN THE DOOR”: “THERE IS ALWAYS A REASON FOR THINGS.” Well, I believe after receiving a letter from my attorney today, that the REASON for these things is that under certain circumstances, Disconnection and SP Declares can be actionable under the law, and the reason they are lied about and hidden is that they (the Church lawyers) know this, but no one has ever called the Cof S on the carpet for it, legally. At least not in an effective enough manner to make them quit doing it. I was not going to say any of this until later, but hearing about your Disconnection situation Scott, and the upsetting of your children, got me “sudden” again and I can’t hold this data in. Now, one could say that the Church will hide under the First Amendment and say it is a religious practice, and that’s what I thought until today; but guess what? There are ways it is still actionable with or without the First Amendment to the U.S. Constitution!
So get ready Tommy Davis, are you gonna lie about Disconnection on the witness stand, and perjure yourself for David Miscavige? Is he going to defend you, or throw you under the bus? As I said in an earlier post, “You need to think about it.”
P.P.S. Could someone please download Cat Steven’s song “Can’t Hold It In” for me under this post? Someone posted how to do it, but can’t find it. Will learn how to do it soonest! Thanks.
Love, Lady Min
Karry and Scott,
I am sorry for your loss. I even am more sorry for Grandma’s loss. I was so lucky with my kids and Grandkids.
My kids showed ME THE LIGHT. And, although they are “no longer Scientologists” they grant me all the beingness that I require and they encourage me to take Dad to Marty and for me to go to Marty’s and get sorted out. Talk about theta!
Still working on a “coming out” letter that is not the length of “War and Peace”. Funny isn’t it. There is/was so much disagreement that I do not know what to leave out.
Best to you and wishing you a rapid re-connection.
And, I could not agree more with the Thanks to Mosey for saving Marty… I second that one!
Let me know what the legal strat is, would ya?
I understand your plight: finding data of comparable magnitude to Davey. I wish you good luck on that expedition.
Actually, to my knowledge, the CoS has been acknowledging the game occurred for awhile now.
TD acknowledges it in the Wright’s New Yorker piece, and I immediately had the same reaction you guys did.. But, then I did some searching and found an official church statement from another media expose in 2008 or 2009 where TD also nonchalantly acknowledges it. I could probably find the links again, if any one is interested.
I agree. It’s so lame the stuff coming from Davies. Come on Miscavige, the least you can do is to show some creativity! Let Heber Jentzsch out to do the talking! That would be interesting. I would love to listen to what Heber has to say about this and anything really.
You skipped a few gradients. Try: TD, is there any way you can improve your flaps just a little bit; if you can’t make them smaller, why not make them bigger?
Good interview – Marty, you come across as genuine, because you are.
The “standard” reply of the “church” has become so easily predictable and robotic that it would have been better they said nothing at all. There is a host of better replies available but only if you have nothing to hide.
Marty, when I initially heard about the Musical Chair incident in the SP Times videos I felt sick in my stomach as I sensed it was true but didn’t want to believe it to be true (that was a “long” time ago and rather quickly changed into a certainty – at which point my tummy ache vanished) – and now, Dave’s Tommy confirmed it did happen. All these footbullets are like shouting to “please stop me from committing more crimes” -and that cry will be answered.
What I believe will break the cult’s back more than anything else (and there are many, many straws capable of breaking that cult’s back) is the DENIAL of enforced disconnection of family and friends. Documents to the contrary are too numerous already and additional ones created on a daily basis within the cult, the outrage in families (and even distant relatives) too strong and the legal course Lady Minn scouts out (many hearts to you my lady from another parent in a similar situation) scouted out elsewhere too.
What I write about is not my “feeling” but actual fact I am involved in – close up and personal. We all make our moves and strike when ready – and strike we will.
Hi Texan guy!! You did it! Absolutely great interview. You come out so natural and convincing just because you aligned with the truth! The media is on our side and that does tremendous good to Scientology.
We are clearing that “engram” up, the Misc-engram!
Bye bye David, you have lost! You lost your power (per your definition). The world is NOT listening to you!
The whole world is listening to us and our voices, not your minion’s voices anymore.
We are Scientology now!
In any case you never had the confront to come out and be Scientology for the world.
You just were a leader of a cult, not Scientology.
A leader of a culture of violence as Marty says!
Listening to that show is right now not possible.
Loading the first sentence takes about 1 minute and then after listening to the first sentence waiting another 5 minutes nothing happens.
Looks like overload of the server hosting that file. OSA bots?
That is awesome news about your finding a legal basis for fighting and hopefully unmocking the enforced disconnections! More power to you!
I second this, Marty. It was a great job you did in that interview, 100%. No-one could mistake your affinity and truthfulness.
Good job. Thanks for speaking out.
Thanks Theo. I wouldn’t say the media is on anybody’s side.
A big wave to Texas – heard you clear and smooth.
Ain’t that the truth you spoke, yet, for some the show did never happen,
I bet 😉
You said it perfectly.
I see the day when Tommy will reveal that he was under the pressure and force….
I’m not so sure. In order to do that he’ll have to stand up to his mother who’s still drinking the Kool Aid.
I really like this piece! It was something that anyone could listen to. I loved your response to his queries about what the public would think and your telling him that you really didn’t care what they thought, your interests were in helping those who were in Scientology. I like that you pointed out that it is now safe to leave, Paul Haggis did!
The thing I liked the most is that this was one more venue that has been used to get this comm delivered! I didn’t get that it was Serius radio until the very end and that has become very big over the past few years.
I still shake my head that Tommy and the lawywers are still playing the same tune. Even if those still in heard the denials and saw that it’s the same denials from last year…and the year before, you would think they might start to wonder why this exact same denial is having to be repeated over and over again, like TR3. Hmmm….maybe there is something to this….this origination about the beatings and kidnapping just won’t go away.
I like that you recognize that ever one has a comm lag and your willing to keep putting it out there again and again.
The shot heard round the world!
I really got your family handling and to some degree, I have been more conservative about my own invovement as an Independent for the same reason.
Even I have to admit this “no disconnection-connection” has influenced me and I will be very happy to see this eradicated from the minds of every Scientologists. It is our agreement that allows the noose to stay around our neck.
I am working on handling every aspect of that agreement with the people who are important to me and making good headway. I wish you the same success on your cycle.
Sapere Aude — Thank you for your succinct comment filled with Source quotes.
B E E N T H E R E, D O N E T H A T.
It’s all so true for me as well as what I’ve observed and heard from others. H
Here is an LRH reference my wife just shared with me and I’d like to share it with all of you…
“……..Therefore, although we have no such stature as the Great Philosophies, I charge you with this — look to source writings, not to interpretations. Look to the original work, not offshoots.
” If I have fought for a quarter of a century, most of it alone, to keep this work from serving to uphold the enslavers of man, to keep it free from some destructive “pitch” or slant, then you certainly can carry that motif a little further.
” I’ll not always be here on guard. The stars twinkle in the Milky Way and the wind sighs for songs across the empty fields of a planet a Galaxy away.
” You won’t always be here.
” But before you go, whisper this to your sons and their sons — “The work was free. Keep it so.”
— L. Ron Hubbard, 1957
Have a great day.
Note that LRH wrote this some 40 years before DM invented his own “golden age of tech”; some 40 years before DM found the “blind leading the blind” as a “why”.
LRH cured himself of blindness by 1950. By 1957 he could see better than you ever will. The 50s were the beginning of the true Golden Age of Knowledge and those who can SEE can see this.
But evil does make blind and so maybe you did find the Right Why in some twisted way and gave us all a clue: That now the BLIND is leading the BLINDED.
Sorry about that. I thought I could insert an image. Let’s see if this works.
Let me know if you need help.
In the theta universe we ARE part of that commando team Sister!!
Wow, amazing…but true!
I watched Invictus last night and this whole disconnection thing reminded me again about the power of disagreement.
Publishing your story, Catherine and her tone 40 intention on the legal front, Karen #1 with her banner facts…lest we forget and many more are all examples of disagreeing.
Anyone who is in doubt or still in knows that what you wrote is very real. Those who know this is true and still hold back because of it are encouraging the status quo of a corrupted church.
Only those with enough integrity to disagree and see the change for themselves will be able to hold their head up high. If South Africa is strong enough to disagree with Apartheid, shouldn’t Scientologists be strong enough to disagree with disconnection?
It started withone man’s certainty that the country could be a different place… and he got someone else to see…and he did the same. This is true with Scientology, that by individual dissemination…the world of Scientology could be a better place. What started with a few, many years ago has grown into a full fledged idea (not just an idyllic dream) that is changing in front of us. It is like getting mass on the mechanics of a postulate…very cool, indeed.
Thank you Scott for reminding me of one of the many reasons the world of Scientology needs to change…as one more in the church decides to disagree…
Could listen to it now. Via podcast did work.
Funny response from Tommy: We did in Int Management play the childs game Musical Chairs. But did not bacame violent.
In munich org on a staff meeting in the early 80ies we did play Musical Chairs too. Income that week had been poor and we should cheer up a bit. No other purpose.
By the way, never could observe any physical violence or „lock up“ in munich org or FOLO EU. Nor heard any rumor indicating that. (except the one sample I wrote earlier with the axe as an „ethics presence“ increaser.) But I left mid 90 and had no contact since. Would not exclude that violence did happen on lower orgs. Does anyone know something first hand?
I agree with your point about keeping it real with the non scientology public but even the concept of what losing your eternity is a bit out there, even when elaborated on. I think the point on forced disconnection is much more real and anyone would understand what a person might put up with in order to keep their family intact, especially the children. Your disconnection emails will have a very impinging effect, more so than losing eternity, IMO.
I felt the reality on the broadcast slipped a bit when Marty started explaining the threat to send people to different parts of the planet during the musical chairs episode. But after getting that his comm was for the Scientologist, not specifically the general public, then I knew that it was a correct comm as any Scientologist WOULD get it.
td you flunked on the new GAT lie TR´s.
You know the consequences: Spanking in the dwarfs sauna and a “confidential” handling. Good luck…..
Sheesh … constant footbullets
Just the concept of using musical chairs (the game) to decide who is going to stay and who is going to be booted out is ridiculous.
Just imagine the Pope ordering his Cardinals to run around a bunch of chairs to decide who will stay by his side.
Wouldn’t Catholics in general think this somewhat odd? For a religion?!?
Aside from my own opinion that we should have never gone the religious route in the first place, this is horrendous PR and would make any religious group look like a bunch of kooks.
As for disconnection – I doubt that there are many here who have not experienced disconnection of family/friends – it is a fact.
Tommy, Miscavige & the others inside deny it – but it is common knowledge that the ‘Church’ of Scientology coerces staff into abortions & splits up family’s & friends of both staff & parishioners.
Scott — This is a beautifully written Flag Order by LRH as it really shows where responsibility lies for one’s post. Thanks for putting it in a comment as I had never read it before. The FO, however, will be as subject to interpretation as any other Source reference within the organizations. I can just see staff, from the top down, calling each other “stupid.” It would also be very difficult to enforce, within the organizations, where I doubt there’s any per-policy ethics and justice gradients being applied at all. H
I feel for you Karry & the kids.
Man, what mother/grandmother can be so callous to cut communication like this? Years of history together and disconnected at the drop of a hat.
… the best to you & your family.
Its good you clarified Matters in your interview Marthy
I dont know how Tommy Davidson and DM’s lawyers can be so in denial
I mean to say they do not split familys its a joke and to me its not taken serious enough to allow people to even speak out and share their sorrows .Even if its investigation with the FBI seems weiry and will that be denied as No wrong doings are going on and not held against their will , Cover after cover. One has to ask Where and who are DM’s force of protection with . Its a sick Joke .
Scott and Karry, just know that it takes a lot of effort to stay disconnected from someone you care about and your Mother will see that. That is my postulate. She will release herself from the bonds of insantity. They all will.
Marty – A good succinct interview. Paints a clear picture of what is going on without taking sides. Easy to listen to.
I’ll send you that data, Hun.
Here you go!
Thanks, Scott, this is a very valuable reference. Saw it once many years ago, but it is not in the OEC volumes, so is not available to me. I am applying it to myself in areas where I have “a failure to handle a situation.” I am also applying it to handling Disconnection. In this regard, I have finally come up out of Stupidity, where I have been for a long time, and cognited this morning that many years ago in 1972 or 1973 I was ordered to disconnect from my job at AOLA by a Sea Org MAA who said “You either disconnect from your job, or you will NOT do the OT levels.” I sent a resignation letter to the company I worked for, while in Los Angeles. I was in a true condition of Power on that job, and had been for many years. The income from that job financed my very rapid rise up the Bridge, from complete newbie to Original OT IV, in less than two years. I had become a celebrity in the town in which I worked and in the company that I worked for. I had received huge trophys for being the #1 Field Representative for that company for 2 years in a row. My clients were being sold books by me, and some of them actually got on the Bridge. All of this was unmocked by my resignation, and I have had roller-coaster money lines ever since, huge Affluences followed by poverty, over and over. I am having the cognition that I violated my integrity by following that order, and went into Treason to my company, my clients, and my FSM (Field Staff Member) hat by following that order, all based on “losing my eternity”.
The order was given because the President of the company that I worked for, came up as an SP (Supprewssive Person) on an S & D (Search & Discovery) in session. I was not given a choice to “handle or disconnect”, which would have been the correct technology. The president of that company was a personal friend of mine, and had co-signed loans at the bank so that I could use the money to go up the Bridge! And, I didn’t have to lie about what I wanted the money for, he knew it was for “cousenling” so that I could improve my life.
At the time, I didn’t understand what the suppression was. I didn’t even know why he would come up as an SP. It took many years to figure it out. He did do some unethical things with the company, but becasue of my friendship with him, and his respect for me, I could have handled him. I could have at least tried. Instead I was left with a disaster for a life, due to my disconnection. The disconnection made me appear “crazy” to my familyand my clients. They blamed Scientology for my subsequent financial decline. I had a Type A (antagonistic family) for years due to this situation. It never got handled. To this day, they still think Scientology is to blame for many things that have occurred, and it was aggravated by the Disconnection bwtween me and my son.
I never spotted until right now that my personal integrity went out when I blindly accepted and acted on the order to disconnect from my job. What is truly a tragedy and ironic, is that the person who did this, Margaret George, was declared an SP herself by the Sea Org, and LRH himself referenced her as one in the issue where he talks about “notable writers”. She was a celebrity of sorts in Hollywood, and after she blew the Sea Org, she wrote magazine articles against Scientology and was a source of Black Propaganda for Scientology in Los Angeles. She was a real Suppressive Person. This data was told to me years later, when I connected back up with Enid Byrne, the AOLA Resgistrar, after my life was a complete shambles. But until just now, I did not realize that I had blindly accepted a Suppressive and Destructive Order given by a true SP, in the name of ‘salvaging my etenity.” I did not think about it very much, and look at the possible consequences of this action, and just blithely did this most destructive thing without much fight. I did bring it up to the M/AA that the job was the source of my income for going up the Bridge, and for my good financial condition, but she insisted that I would not go up the Bridge, unless I quit that job. I went into Stupidity and Treason on all my dynamics when I accepted that order, and never took responsibility for that until today. Maybe that is why I am such a proponent of anti-Disconnection (the enforced kind), and I am coming up out of the Lower Conditions, and this is a big Liability formula. I have felt that way, but didn’t know why. Thanks for the case gain, Scott. See what ONE LRH reference can do? It can change your life on a dime! And this one, didn’t even cost a dime, it was Free . . . . from a friend!
Many thanks and much love,
This Flag Order conjures up visions of David Miscavige being Fitness Boarded out of the Sea Org.
Of course, how do you “Fitness Board” out of the Sea Org a “Chairman of the Board?” This questions adds new meaning to the phrase “Corporate Scientology”. It reminds us that LRH never designated a post called “Chairman of the Board”.
The feelings mutual, Homeslasher!
Thanks for this. I agree. The grandparents are punishing themselves. I actually left out some of the more entheta comm from others in Karry’s family regarding veiled threats that our kids might have to disconnect from us someday, etc.
We just figured that after committing such an overt, Karry’s family would accelerate their own disaffection with the C of S.
I also feel that it is important to distinguish that we are disaffected with the Church of Scientology, NOT the subject of Scientology or LRH. That one statement tends to clear everything up in others minds. I have rehabbed the subject’s repute many times in the minds of my friends just by making this distinction.
Great on your coming out letter. Yeah, I know. I could write a book too and am still mocking up a life sysnopsis that hopefully Marty will let me post here.
Thanks for the best wishes. I can’t wait to meet Mosey.
Great movie. One man, one vote!
I said HELPLESS body, not lifeless.
I don’t let people off that easy!
Another realization I am having: How do you “lose” an eternity? An eternity, by definition, is an infinity, supposedly “indestructible”. LRH says you’re gonna be in it, either in a good conditon or a bad one. To me, Scientology is that applied religious philosophy that you use to raise your awareness so that you can be in a good conditon. When you lose your integrity, you lose that “good condition” that gives you that good Eternity. That is why it is so hard to find a “datum of comparable magnitude” to David Miscavige. Who else would obscure, change, alter, hide, confiscate, and destroy the data and the organization, that would allow spiritual beings to do this? Enquiring minds want to know.
Yeah – nothing to do with Marty’s interview – that was great. It’s just that I’ve heard that “didn’t want to lose my eternity” thing so many times now in media interviews without any explanation.
I just finally decided to mention it.
Cathie Baby, we be trackin’. Check out the time stamp on my post below. I wrote that late last night before going to bed. I’m a west coaster in the U.S.
Oh, you gotta know that all that “old” LRH stuff is just out the window!
I will send you a copy of his communication to me. He gave me permission to share it with those who have suffered disconnection and want to join in this fight. You will also be able to look on his website and see his credentials, and understand that he is eminently qualified to help in this endeavor. He also understands that the data of Scientology, the applied philosophy, is different from the “Church”, and that we love L. Ron Hubbard and his technology for improving life, and are in disagreement with the practices of the Church, and feel the Church is abusing the writings of LRH. He is personally interested in the Scientology philosophy and I have promised to send him the book “Science of Survival”, which he requested when I told him about the Tone Scale., and shared with him that a very complete description of the Tone Scale was in that book. I have spent hours and hours listening to him about the recent death of his beloved daughter, bringing him personally up the Tone Scale on that subject. When I told him that I understood because of the loss of my son due to “Disconnection”, he said that in some my ways my situation was worse, due to the unknowness of the condition and whereabout of my son. So we have on our hands, an attorney who realizes and considers the true evil of disconnection, and who voluntarily expressed the idea that it could be WORSE than the death of a loved one!
Yesterday, after I received his comm, I phoned him discuss it with him, and told him that I knew 100% that I had found the right attorney! He laughed out loud, so it must have been a right indication!
Thank you, Valkov, your support means a lot! For ten years I have been looking for this legal basis, and until yesterday, considered it, more than likely, a lost cause, due to the results of the Headley trial. I had chalked it up to “protected by the First Amendment”. It was an incredible win to find out that this might not be necessarily true!
That rationale is the first to fall prey to the authoritarian tyranny of the organizational elite.
It does place a constant, subliminal pressure there for one.
Thanks for your postulate for us.
Tony, Thanks so much for your offer. I do need some help, and have been wanting to get in touch with you. Could you e-mail me at firstname.lastname@example.org?
Yes, we are together on that commando team, along with the others here on this blog, fighting the good fight. I actually believe that Marty and his exposing of the truth, and all the others who have brought the TRUTH to the light of day, and all the supportiers of this blog ARE the COMMANDO TEAM that is rescuing the applied philosophy of L. Ron Hubbard. We are rescuing it from those that would obscure, change, hide, alter and destroy the data that is giving us our chance in this “one brief breath in eternity” to change the course of the spiritual nature of man for the rest of time.
Great Interview Marty.
Sending the link on far and wide.
Lots covered in a few short minutes. Succint, Pithy, Concise.
P.S. Thanks for the definition of the “Limited Hangout”. New terminology for me. Will add it to my “Burn Notice” collection.
I would love to have my own version of a “Limited Hangout” with Tommy Davis. He would get a Lady Min “SRA”! Then we’ll see how many lies he would tell!
W O W … ALL FROM READING A SOURCE REFERENCE. Hallelujah!!
“Tommy also admits that group confessions are a part of the tech, and it is standard practice as well. ”
I think Tommy has Scientology confused with Alcoholics Anonymous.
It’ll be a cold day in hell when DM admits that. Simple fact:
He can’t. He doesn’t know how.
Just like Stalin, Hitler, Idi Amin and 40 other crackpot dictators in Africa right now, none of them knew how to do it either. DM will not step down or admit anything. There’s only one way to take down a dictator, and it’s by force (as opposed to by reason). Your reference is the tech on correct estimation of force and intelligence.
Something to consider that might help complete the circle for you:
Print out your whole post above, look up that boss from long ago, pop round for a chat and a coffee, and show him the post.
There’s a lot of time, place, form and event in your post, a lot of truth, and probably a whole lot of as-isness still to come.
*Limited Hang Out* has pretty much been a staple of the CIA since the Bay of Pigs fiasco at least and is done when *Plausible Denial* fails and a *Flap* occurs.
Also known as *Damage Control* and occasionally as *Slow Burn*
(as in the metaphor of preventing a fire from burning out of control) and were used skillfully in deflecting a congressional committee from investigating allegation that the Agency was experimenting with drugs on unsuspecting civilians and military personnel.
The incident they choose was one of three officers at a party in Washington attempting to spray the party goers with LSD from an aerosol can and ended up getting stoned themselves but in no way affecting the crowd that was known in the papers at the time by the headlines as “The Gang Who Couldn’t Shoot Straight”.
Who said the Company didn’t have a sense of humor?
Anyway the upshot was that the Committee and the Press had a good laugh over the Agency’s comedic incompetence and had moved on until a guy named John Marks came out with a book called “The Search for the Manchurian Candidate” which revealed the sordid extent of the CIA’s involvement with drugs.
Point is they almost got away with it until Marks applied due diligence with the help of the newly strengthened FOIA (strengthened by the GO) and rained on their parade.
Of course poor Tommy doesn’t even have a sense of humor (probably because he’s been hanging around Miscavige for too long) so he isn’t convincing when he says the musical chairs was just fun and games.
What I noticed that was even more damaging was now their total and complete *denial* of any violence on the base.
Before they tried to shift the blame to Marty claiming that he was the instigator as “King Pin” in their glossy 82 page *epic fail* that they freely distributed.
Now they’re saying it never happened!
As if they’re in a state of total denial about it like the whole disconnection thing.
You know deny, deny, deny….
Which only works if you never admitted to whatever you’re denying.
Who knows maybe they’re hoping if they they deny it enough that they’ll just accept the *big lie* or whatever.
Or maybe it’s just another attempt from the Perception Management playbook to alter the public’s perception.
Whatever it is.
It ain’t workin’!
All it does is make Tommy look like some lying sleaze ball PR flak protecting some creepy politician or low life criminal.
All Tommy is in my estimation is the Robotic (as per the HCOB Robotism) messenger of evil.
He is told what to say from higher up and he just says it practically word for word like some engram command.
Two thumbs up Karen, we’ll see you sooner than later OK?!
I never bought the idea that it “losing one’s eternity” as the *total* justification for following Miscavige’s insane, inane and destructive edicts.
Then today I had this cognition which I’d like to share with you all.
Anyway HCOB 29 June 1964 Central Org and Field Auditor Targets Ron discusses two types of cases the Type A and B.
I won’t go into any great detail since its covered in the above HCOB which is pg 432 of the Original TVs how you can convert a Type A case which is a case in good case shape to a Type B case by the technique known as “sleep deprivation”.
Yes a technique that is used by practically all intelligence agencies and secret police forces world wide which is actually forbidden by the Geneva conventions used in interrogation.
Usually they stick someone in a room that is lit 24 hours a day with a cot that is like a bed of nails and may play loud music or in some way make the environment hostile to any rest.
Sometimes they’ll turn out the lights and let the person *almost* drift off to dream land then they’ll turn on the lights and rush him off to an interrogator while he’s still drowsy and half asleep.
After they’ve done this for only several days in some cases maybe months in others the person eventually “cracks” and becomes a babbling robot who will tell his tormentors anything *anything* just to get a good nights sleep.
When I was auditing at AOLA none of us had any problems with sleep until a new tech hierarchy took over and then we started having these “Auditor Conferences” every night that would sometimes go until the wee hours of the morning.
First they were only once a week and then we started having them every *damn* night.
Worse we used to be able to tell the board I/C to reschedule our PCs for later in the morning to catch some extra “Zs” if we were up late doing admin or a folder study so we’d be sessionable for cramming or coauditing the next day.
However after this new mandatory (the only way you could get out of them were if you were in session) “auditor conferences” started they demanded that we all be at Staff Roll Call at 8am!
So most of us were averaging 4 or 5 hrs maybe less sleep a night.
After a week or two of this you begin to feel somewhat robotic and disconnected from your environment.
I vaguely remember just doing C/Ses that if I had a good nights sleep prior to getting them I would normally have queried but just did ’em robotically anyway because I just didn’t care any more.
Thinking about this period I can understand why many of the SO staff who are basically good people would follow the insane edicts of a mad man or his totally corrupt inner circle.
You speak sooth Kemosabe but the fact is that you are very adept at using the media as a safe point to get our view across and for that I thank you Marty.
Yes, RJ, I realize Tommy Davis is just the messenger, and that it would appear as though I’m attempting to shoot the messenger. Be that as it may, and he is oviously robotic per the HCOB on Robotism, he still has his own integrity and his own duty and obligation to LRH to play it straight. The Adolph Eichman defense (I was under orders) didn’t work at Nuremburg and it shouldn’t work here. One of the things the lawyer was discussing with me, was the idea that officers of a corporation or group or Church can be held accountable for what they do as individuals, along with the corporation or group or Church they belong to. It is my belief that individuals in OSA mistakenly believe that the crimes they commit would be the responsibility of the Church for which they work.
The Catholic Church is dealing with this legal concept with their priests. The individual priests committed the sexual crimes on children, but they are also considered “officers” of the Church, and they committed these crimes in their position as priests (officers) of the Church. So, the Church has some accountability as a group, and the individuals involved are accountable as individuals. Last night on CNN, there was news of a new round of prosecutions of priests going on in the U.S., Philadelphia, I believe. One of the priests being prosecuted was charged by a grand jury for “covering up” by letting a priest with known past abuses, work in a school, where children were abused by this priest, even though the priest who assigned this other priest to the school had never participated in these types of crimes. He is being charged as being responsible, by letting a known abuser be around children.This is why I keep admonishing OSA terminals to “think about what they do”, as they CAN be held accountable for their own actions, even if under orders, while the group is also held accountable for their actions, as a group. Now, with this new twist, they can be held accountable for their juniors who commit crimes under their watch, and especially if they ordered it to occur. They will not necessarily be able to “hide” under the skirts of the “Mother Church”.
Hence, my admonitions for them “to think about it’.
It was very obvious that the “every square inch” wives were coached, as their statements, were almost word for word compared with each other. It was also obvious that Monique Yingling was there to make sure Tommy Davis didn’t get the Church in big trouble, and had to explain his statements to Anderson Cooper herself. Attorneys always coach their clients before a jury trial, or in this case, a public relations trial. So, what was said was probably a “concoction” of DM and her, with her having “final approval” on exactly what to say. What she said would work for general public who didn’t have any personal experience with disconnection or Scientologists, but probably what they didn’t expect was the “shot heard around the world” for us old-timers who KNOW what has gone on. I guess this was their effort at “plausible deniability”. It sounds reasonable enough, “Disconnection is done on an individual basis when all other efforts have failed.”
It would be so easy to dead agent them on this. A couple of hundred affidavits of stories of enforced disconnections with four or five people like me, with disconncted kids, crying about the loss of their children would blow them completely out of the water. They also made Anderson Cooper so mad with their efforts to discredit him after the show that he would LOVE to do a show like that. The one bad thing about lying, is that it makes people like me want to PROVE they are lying. Tommy Davis dead-agented himself on that show with any hard core Scientologist, and a group like Moms-Against-Disconnection could easily dead agent them, ( Tommy Davis and Monique Yingling), to the rest of the world, the general public at large.
Dear RJ, thank you for this. First of all, I really appreciate the data on sleep deprivation and its use by intelligence agencies and secret police forces. I can see how this would work. Also, I didn’t know it was outlawed by the Geneva convention. Makes DM’s crimes along this line even more actionable than they already are.
I also appreciate the data on what happened to you as an auditor as regards that lack of sleep. It has given me a new appreciaton of the influences of an environment on an auditor and then the influence of that auditor on the preclear. It is something I had not thought about much before. This is bringing on a flood of cognitions about things that have happened in my auditing before, that I would not have attributed to the environment, but that now I can see were directly related to the things happening in the environment to my auditor(s) I have so much to say about this, but I am suffering from sleep deprivation, self-induced, so won’t go into it. I guess i am having the cogniton that no matter what an auditor does or does not do, in the end you are still responsible for your own condition. You are still cause. It drives home the idea that as a preclear you have the responsibility to let your auditor, case supervisor, D of P, etc, know when things are not right. I had the bad habit of just letting whatever happens happen, instead of letting a C/S or auditor know that “hey, this is not the right action”, or” this auditing is grinding”, or whatever. I had some kind of datum sitting there that “they knew best and they know what they are doing” and I let things roll on even though as a case, I knew it wasn’t right. I considered auditors large infallible, and it didn’t occur to me they could be subjected to things that could cause mistakes to be made. So thanks for this. It explains a lot. Maybe at the Indie get together we can get more specific.
Scott, I think I actually looked at it before I wrote the above. I didn’t study it, as I was getting tired, it was the middle of the night for me, but it did jog the subject. Sometimes I “speed -read” posts and then come back for a second time to make sure I duplicate it. I think I speed-read it, and it spurred my thoughts about the “eternity’ concept. That is why I love this blog so much. It allows one to pick apart these concepts and REALLY look at them and inspect them, and get other’s viewpoints, which frequently lead to more awareness, and then BOOM, a big cog that changes you and your life forever. Hey, that’s Axiom 51, Postulates and Live Communication . . . . . thus auditing can occur. We really do audit each other on this blog! I’m addicted!
YES, THE POWER OF SOURCE! THANKS FOR THE ACK.
Both my daughters were physically abused at Los Angeles Day org. On by a fellow org staff and the other by a SO member. It was KR’d and no follow up was done. If you want more data email me at email@example.com
My husband and I have NO disaffection with actual LRH tech either…. We only want standard Scientology… something we feel we can only get in the Independence Field now, because they sure aren’t delivering it at any org.
LRH references could be interpreted in two different ways. Side 1: validate the physical universe. Side 2: validate the universe of the person. Side 1 interpretation we see right now in the church. You could make samples with the FO 2722 above. It should be self evident that Side 1 interpretation ends all OT abilities in the end. DM is MEST. He produces MEST energy. An OT can create life (theta). He is in the pit. We are not. Sometimes we think we are. But that is not true. We have a datum of comparable magnitude: DM.
I rememeber those days in Munich
I also recall the flag order that has been typed in this blog when it was written,I was at the Ship at the time.
Yes, ethics is a personal thing. You have to do what is right for you, by your own judgment. Not mine. Not anyone else’s.
Mine too. And lots of theta to you all!
Is it really wrong to shoot such a messenger? Gotta get him thinking somehow….
Excellent comm. Thank you again.
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Good article. I’m going through many of these issues as well..