Pie Face

Postscript: Could not miss the opportunity to make use of this photo taken in Sydney, now that people understand the significance of the term! Mike

Sydney, August 2010

207 responses to “Pie Face

  1. Billy Jack

    Does HE still prance around in his mother’s undies in front of people in “the hole”? Does HE have any pictures of his wife in the nude? Does HE want to buy some? Does HE still molest children and farm animals?

    Thank you guys for the enlightening and humorous, if not pitiful, psychotic crap that HE ran/runs on people who obviously and definitely never deserved to be violated by HIM. What a waste of oxygen HE must be!

  2. Mestsavage needs to shut his PIE HOLE.

    Marty, your location there is quite nice. I would recommend that you have someone trim that nice palm tree that was behind you. Vermin can reside in a tree like that. You know, vermin like OSA cameramen and other such creatures. 😉

  3. I enjoy these fishing conversations. Great interviewing, Christie.

  4. That was very funny-what people have to go through to please this impossible to please midget. I think there may be a movie made of this guy and at the end will be testimonials from many swearing on the Bible that he actually was this way.
    Which reminds me of a well made miniseries of Hitler about 6 years ago. He was shown in a romantic moment with Eva. As she was draped seductively on the couch, he approached her with very spastic jutting movements of his limbs and with a demonic “eye staring” look. It was probably very accurate. With dm, in his romantic moment, would make the girl put up a pie face.

  5. The Int Base … everything Scientology is NOT supposed to be. So twisted.

  6. I grew up on the west side of Detroit. I had to literally fight my way out of that neighborhood just in time to get drafted in the Army and off to fight the valiant fight in VN. Needless to say I saw the rough side of life a little too much. But there was a lot to be learned.

    And there is one thing I learned from all of this that applies here, and that is this: There ain’t nothing like getting a good old fashioned ass beating. It does marvelous things for you when you actually need it. When I was uplines and after DM dealt with me – and believe me, I never got any of the nasty stuff he dealt out after 1993 – I used to think as he was doing his thing with me that I never met a person more in need of a good old fashioned Detroit west-side ass-beating than DM did. He actually needs someone to take him out back and bitch slap him until he cries for his mommy and then pummel him to the point where he has a life changing cognition and a major stable win. I realize this is not part of Scientology, unless you count the ETHICS PL about where no one said “no!” to him on his way up.

    But I actually contemplated doing this to him a few times as a way of saying “no!” when he was in my space ragging on me and doing his thang. But, of course, I cowered out. I knew I would never see the rest of the bridge again if I did. I never did anyhow. I just realized I would probably be OT VIII by now if I did beat the crap outta him.

    ML Tom

  7. Pie face – yes. What a wonderful creation. Miscavige put a big 4 foot poster up in the WDC office / conference room that we had to “confront” all day long. In one meeting, he wrote on this poster…. “Is it done yet?” “No, sir….” to show how pathetic our apathetic non-compliance was. Yeah, he really encouraged us to do well. NOT. It was the most depressing, upsetting and demeaning work environment imaginable.

    This pie face was just one of NUMEROUS gimmicks Miscavige played on us.

    I recall the neon name tags with derogatory terms on it that we had to tape together and string down the front of our uniform shirts. We HAD to wear them everywhere we went at the Int base, until he gave his approval to remove them.

    He specializes in degrading people. And really enjoys it.

    That people are still there letting this evil fraud continue his “religious leader” charade is just so sad.

  8. Pie face notices on the bulletin boards and DM had the nerve to declare someone for dedinging?
    “Are you still sucking cocks?” YES I AM DM.
    And you are the only one complaining about it!

    You have some deep seated issues on the 2D! DEEP! And everyone knows it! And it isn’t simple cock sucking!

  9. At LEAST I am not sitting around getting my kicks by watching Tom Cruise’s secretly video taped auditing sessions! You voyeur!

  10. Impartial English Girl

    Another WONDERFUL conversation from two great men…

    Careful though, boys – I think I may have had a premonition of you two in around thirty years’ time… (p.s. Look out for a fleeting cameo by DM himself at 1:30-in) 😉

    Hope everyone is having a great weekend.

    IEG xxx

  11. Impartial English Girl

    I wonder if DM meant to say “po-faced”, but was too stupid to know the difference…?

  12. ΘTater/GaryLerner

    DM still scares my chickens!

  13. Eyes Wide Open

    PIE Face!!! My god!! Let’s talk about PIE Face!!
    There is a reason why Int staff react with a face of stone, a face of non-comprehension, and a face of no emotion.
    It is the only way to disconnect from the insanity of the situation, the craziness of DM, the loonie scene.
    As an Int base staff member you have typically been in the SO for 15 years plus. You have worked your way to that position through endless hours of service. And from the early 90’s onwards, DM started to make life at the Int base impossible. Your comm lines with family are cut. Your comm lines with friends out of the SO (and in the SO, and on the Int base) are cut). You get no pay or little pay, so you have no assets and are in dread of having pay suspended or forfeited as you can’t even afford basic hygiene supplies. You are kept on a schedule that leaves you tired, if not exhausted. You are constantly told you are ethics bait, an SP, a pie face, etc. And you have no qualifications that are recognisable in the outside world.
    So what do you do?
    Well — you can blow…. (which takes a lot of nerve, guts and fearlessness). Some do it. Some try and fail. Some just dream about it.
    Others — sinking into the apathy of the situation they find themselves in, decide there is nothing they can do. They are victims of it — but they cannot change it. They must try adn be “responsible” for it. They have no means to do anything else (they think!). So, they stand and listen to the constant degradation, name calling, invalidation, etc. They learn that if they look at DM with no expression, then they don’t get sent straight to a meter for yet another RTC assessment for evil purposes, they don’t get sent in front of the entire crew to “confess their crimes”, thety don’t get “confronted”by 30 plus people demanding to know their overts, and they don’t (hopefully) get removed from post or sent to the Hole. At least that is the assumption.
    So, instead you become a PIE Face. And though being a PIE face results in constant denigration, name calling, taunting and so on, it is easier to take than the other consequences of actually responding to this lunatic.
    So …..
    PIE Face….. It was a name I had for a long time. I was also the biggest ser fac on the base. I was the most ENTHETA person on COB’s lines (at least for 3 – 4 years I had that title). I could not think my way out of a paper bag. I was a loser. I was irresponsible. At one point I was told there was NOTHING I could do or produce that was worth anything — that there was no post I could hold as I was an overt product maker.

    It has taken me a few years to realise that all of these labels are not mine.

    They are his. Bloody lunatic that he is.

  14. Have you seen this film : Water for Elephants? With Christoph Waltz. This character will remind you of someone!

  15. Eyes Wide Open

    Oh — And a forgot a few others…
    I was an SP (that goes without question). I am unable to think logically and need to get my HC Lists to get me to be able to do so, I am an FPRD case, I am incompetent, I should never been posted at Int (well — that is clear now!) and I was told repeatedly for several years that I am ENTHETA and that everything I do and say is ENTHETA.
    The (intended) result was introversion.
    My job (at one point), was an Ethics Officer. And the first job of an Ethics Officer (per LRH) is to find who is stopping the Ethics Officer — so DM rendered me so introverted, withdrawn and unsure, that there was no way I could or would pull the strings that were so OBVIOUSLY there.

    I also want to make one other point.
    There is a direct correlation with PIE Face and No Sympathy. To survive (if you can call it that) at the Int base for any length of time, you have to adopt a “No Sympathy” for everyone else. Any compassion, any affinity, any sympathy, or any effort to show help to another being in trouble is considered to be “mutual out-ethics, “mutual crimes”, etc.
    I have been associated with someone in recent years, who since leaving the Int base, STILL dramatises No Sympathy for anything that person has trouble confronting.
    It is a valence that comes straight from that hell hole. It is the antithesis of what Scn is actually about (ie. Affinity, Reality, Communication and Understanding).
    Even after people leave that hell hole — they walk away with baggage that takes years to unravel and remove themselves from…

    Email from Italy ~~
    I have been in Scientology for over 25 years. During that time I trained to Class V Interned in Milan. I have never been on staff.
    I have been a rather successful businessman and always had gains in Scientology auditing and Rundowns until the year 2001, when for a reason that is a yet unclear to me,
    I was made to do 10 intensives of sec-check, mainly cleaning cleans, once spending 3 hours on a question that asked if I had been a member of the CIA, when I am an Italian
    Citizen and my only trips to the United States have been to get auditing in Clearwater, Florida, at the Flag Land Base.
    My auditors at Flag, when I told them I felt clean, were, while in session, intensely hostile to me. More than once when I was literally driven to despair and on the edge of bursting in a cry of despair,
    pursing what I felt was a false read, I was told by my Flag auditors, with contempt in their voice, to “knock it off”. and “fess off to the withold”

    I was made to redo Solo NOts all over again, when I felt there was nothing wrong with it. I was told that it was IMPOSSIBLE to get a blow or Ep of a process on
    that level unless I had a blowdown on each and every action. This is based on a confidential “Directive” blow anything written by David Miscavige that
    “anyone who claims to get a blow or process EP on Solo NOTs without a full Blowdown is simply at the case level of “DUB-IN” and imagining things. When I politely queries that a
    non-LRH directive could not alter LRH written HCOBs, I was immediately routed to Ethics and told in unclear that questioning the validity of the writings of David Miscavige
    was in itself a suppressive act.

    I was sent back for more sec-checking. Each time I said I had an ARCX, a disagreement or even the few times I burst into tears, I was asked one question and one question only: “What withold has been missed”.
    I somehow managed to get through the wall of sec-checking and the redo of Solo NOTs, at a cost of more than 80,000 Euros, once I learned the valuable session that it
    is no longer safe to tell what one thinks in session, and the only other choice
    given to me by the Ethics officer, over unquestioning obedience was being declared a Supressive person and that each of my Scientology employees (more than a dozen of them)
    would be told to disconnect from a destructively as possible, the goal being apparently to make me bankrupt and destitute in the process.
    I redid OT VIII on the Freewinds. This was not a pleasant experience. Even the few times I was allowed to go on shore, I was being continually watched by my HCO Escort,
    in a manner that was reminiscent of the treatment given to Westerners when they visited and Iron Curtain country at the height of the Cold War..
    I started to question within myself what level of Degradation Scientology had fell into…
    In the 5 years since I “completed” OT VII and VIII for the second time, I found myself, for the first time in my life not doing well and in a state of apathy toward
    my life, my family and my business.

    HAPPY Ending :
    The above was repaired by an Independent Scientologist and is currently doing really well.

    This is why we speak out as we do…..

  17. Thanks to both of you for your courage in finally getting fed up, leaving this garbage and for speaking up. Is there any more upper mgmt with some spine or is it just a matter of time? I can’t imagine LRH putting up with this kind of stuff.

    Sounds like this guy is the one with the “evil purps” — what a suppressive personality! One can only hope that one day in prison, he will learn to get in touch with his gentler, feminine side with the help of his 6’5″ cell mate, Rashid. And that in his next life as an organ grinder’s vicious little monkey, he will learn some measure of humility, if he is not too busy scratching, biting and urinating on the humans that laugh at his antics. He is certainly not creating a bright future for himself, and has done much harm to the image of Scientology. Anyone who continues to follow him when they should know better, is betraying LRH.

  18. Oh, what an interesting fellow. I had an NCO in the military who did that sort of thing. He was a tough SOB, loved confrontation. However, in one particular circumstance we were issued live ordinance. I remember the look on his face when he stood in front of us, he must have realised what the serious people in front of him were holding in their hands – that was really pie face. He changed a little after that.
    I can’t wait for this DM character to eventually face his abused on equal footing, he’ll crumple like an empty candy wrapper – what a jerk!

  19. Someday somebody will make a movie of this story- the story of Miscavige anyway. OTDT can write it.

  20. martyrathbun09

    There were dozens of people he convinced were the “most enturbulative person” on his lines during that period. A true SP.

  21. Unbelievable, except that it is not unbelievable. The whole SO was set up as an authoritarian, top-down command structure with no real processes or real policy in place to push back against insane orders. Since the SO was the top of the org board, this shit rolled down to the orgs and missions as well, and even to the public who are not officially staff members, but have been commandeered as part of the “OT Ambassadors” and “OT Committees” and, of course, “Field Staff Members.” In the official church, you join up, you take orders from COB.

    The whole structure is one of the SO is at the top, and they claim to own Scientology, and they dole it out at their pricing and their leisure. Instead of Super Power being released in 1978 IT IS STILL UNRELEASED. Instead of the OT Levels above VIII being released and available, they are HELD HOSTAGE by DM and the droids.

    DM’s slaughter of the mission network paved the way for non-questioning submission on the part of all Scientologists, really. We expected “International Management” to have Scientology’s and our best interests at heart.

    But, there is NO recourse. The right of petition is gone. Who are you doing to petition to? LRH? How can you petition DM about the abuses this SOB daily performs? Knowledge reports – who is going to process them? No one.

    Public Scientologists have NO input into how the IAS or the church is run. None. The only vote is dollars and attendance. The only effective action that Scientologists can do is say NO and withdraw from the organization. Which is, really, what the Independent Movement is.

    When you have a full top down structure with no accountability, you get Mr. David Miscavige running roughshod over everyone. If those that are trod upon confront this SOB, what can be done besides going “Pie face?”

    Well, the answer is, go pie-face, or blow.

  22. Pieface, yeah. What a crock that was – all part of Miscavige’s control operation. Once at a meeting he took a series of pictures of me with a motorized camera to “prove” my expression never changed. But the fact is, any expression could get you in trouble – sad, scared, smiling, angry, whatever, so most people opted for a blank expression. To quote from Orwell’s 1984: “…to wear an improper expression on your face (to look incredulous when a victory was announced, for example) was itself a punishable offense. There was even a word for it in Newspeak: facecrime…”

  23. DFB- Maybe they already did. It’s titled Scarface.

    Mama Montana [to Tony] Why do you have to hurt everything you touch? Why do you have to destroy everything that comes your way? ¡Malagradecido! ¡Mal hijo!
    [Ungrateful! Bad son!]

  24. Conclusion

    David Miscavige is infantile, if demented.

    The Scientology Inc “leader’s” desire to degrade and own bodies has plenty of evidence, inside and outside the organization:

    From many reports of former staff, whose shining hearts to serve a vision of a better world were brutalized in an unconscionable way;

    To the ridiculous clown OT Ambassadors Miscavige dispatches to scowl and threaten people into submission (and break the law);

    To the fake slander blogs he writes that are only a portal into his sexually perverted mind as he tries to degrade woman …

    would be laughable if not for

    the man is sick. Period. This is cause for public concern.

  25. Conclusion

    The big difference is that little Davey doesn’t have the power to send anyone to the cornfield. Without money and the ability to enturbulate others (or try damn hard to), Miscavige’s campaigns evidence the little poofy-haired vindictive infantile pip squeak he is.

    All finger pointing (“You’re a very bad man!”), NO POWER. In real life, evil makes Davey a very dull and impotent boy.

  26. Jethro Is In The Zone

    It’s funny you should mention Adolf Hitler. A few nights ago I watched a documentary special on Adolf Hitler that went into detail on yhe psychological profile that American psyhologists had created of him. This profile described Miscavige to a T, especially with regards as to why he is so sadistic. You can read more about it here (and other places), but here is a snippet:


    Murray pegged Hitler’s personality as “counteractive narcism,” a type that is stimulated by real or imagined insult or injury. According to Dr. Murray, the characteristics of this personality type include:

    holding grudges,

    low tolerance for criticism,

    excessive demands for attention,

    inability to express gratitude,

    a tendency to belittle, bully, and blame others,

    desire for revenge,

    persistence in the face of defeat,

    extreme self-will, self-trust,

    inability to take a joke,

    and compulsive criminality.

    Dr. Murray concluded that Hitler had these characteristics (and others) to an extreme degree and lacked the offsetting qualities that round out a balanced personality.

  27. Jethro Is In The Zone

    Here’s another document describing Hitler’s psychological profile:


    Perhaps what’s most interesting is that these papers predicted Hitler’s eventual suicide. So, since there are so many similarities between Hitler and Miscavige, one can also accurately predict that this is most likely how Misacavige will remove himself as well. One can thank his basic goodness for that.

  28. FG,
    I had the same thought.
    Strong resemblance.
    Let’s hear it for the elephant!

  29. There are some heart wrenching stories here-the abuse at the top is unbelievable-my admiration for those who survived and are rebuilding their lives.

  30. Bruce Clark

    I just read your story, and recently several other stories of similar experience, plus what info Marty has posted. I am waking up to the dire necessity to remedy, rescue is the better word, all of LRH’s Scientology from this SP, David Miscavige.

    While I feel it’s okay to rail against Miscavige and to promote his suppressive acts, and to carry on the practice of Standard Tech, the real issue which must be addressed is the removal of the SP so that Scientology can carry on its true mission.

    I left staff as Cramming Officer at CCI in 1994 after seeing that non-LRH policies were being preferred and that attempts to remedy were simply suppressed. At the time I thought I was alone. But now I see that I am not.

    Thank you all the good people out there that, while they may not have stood up directly against DM, at least they stood up for something. I know in my heart that we, if we stand together, will win out.

  31. Hey Lana:

    I had a record run with that title.

    But, just between us chickens — he tells a lot of different people they are the absolute worst. I can think of a few others who also got the coveted moniker “most entheta person on COB’s lines.”

  32. Tony Dephillips

    Hi Tom,
    I wish you would have.
    But at least now you are verbally bitch slapping him which has its merits.
    It is only common sense that when a criminal is doing criminal things and won’t leave on his own accord that well intentioned people have to use force to get them to stop doing the crimes. You don’t need an LRH reference for that.

  33. Tom,

    Hank Williams, Jr. put that exact sentiment to music, in a song called “Attitude Adjustment”. Here are the lyrics.


    I met an old friend in the bar the other night
    He got a little drunk and he wanted to fight;
    He jumped up and challenged every man in the room.
    And just about the time he got the words out
    An old boy jumped up and closed his mouth
    And used his head for a mop and his butt for a broom.
    It was an Attitude Adjustment, I guess it was his first time.
    An attitude adjustment, now he understands just fine.
    He got bent out of shape, then he opened his mouth
    And just one appointment straightened him right out
    It was an attitude adjustment–It’ll work every time.

    Now I’ve got this big old Brother-in-law
    And me and him just never did get along
    Cause he just wasn’t treating my sister nice.
    He got drunk one night and started and beating me up
    And I went and got a tire tool out of my truck
    And straightened him out as cold as a block of ice.
    It was an attitude adjustment and it’ll work every time.
    An attitude adjustment-I made him see the light.
    Now he says I’m his kind of man,
    He comes around me with his hat in his hand
    It was an attitude adjustment; I cured his family pride.

    Now my girl friend slapped me in the face
    And I said “Darling, that was your first mistake”.
    And then she went wild and her eyes turned red.
    She started breaking everything and screaming loud
    And kicking me and cussing me out
    And I gave her a little adjustment on the top of her head.
    It was an attitude adjustment, Ah she loves on me all the time.
    Just an attitude adjustment, She’s got a whole new frame of mind.
    She don’t nag and I don’t beg, We get along and like I said,
    Just an attitude adjustment Ah, everything’s just fine.

    She called the cops to take me in
    And I said “You’ll never do it , Friend”.
    And they just smiled and said “Oh yes we will!”.
    Now sticks to the head and kicks to the shin
    And several bites by Rin Tin Tin
    And I couldn’t wait to get into that jail.
    It was an attitude adjustment, Oh I went along peacefully
    Attitude adjustment, They made me clearly see
    So my head is black and my legs are blue
    And both knee caps are bit clean through
    It was an attitude adjustment
    Made my whole life look brand new.

  34. I realised something in reading the entries here. I believe it is now well past the point that anyone following and promoting Scn Inc is indeed in a condition of Treason against LRH. This thought has occured before many times but with the data flowing now about the leader of Scn there really isn’t any other why I would consider workable. I’m getting on in years now and don’t have an infinity of time to get the tech understood as well as I’d like. If you follow a group’s mores you are responsible for that groups actions.

  35. Bruce Clark

    You have a lot of, “they” going here. Have you actually read in his own words why LRH set up the SO? And why it was necessary?

  36. Bruce Clark

    Excellent! I’d forgotten about facecrimes. How bizarre that it’s gotten that degraded.

  37. Tony Dephillips

    The SP attacks the most able around them. Truly theta beings scare the SP.
    It might be good to get some auditing on the subject of the suppression you have endured if you haven’t.
    I salute you for trying to do the right thing by joining the Sea Org.
    We will get rid of the SP and things will get better.
    Your efforts were not in vain.

  38. 🙂

  39. Bruce Clark

    “Sick” is a pshrink term. Let’s keep it Scientological. DM is an SP, he dramatizes the characteristics defined in the definition of psychosis. He does not suffer from some illness, as such.

  40. Conclusion

    LOLOL Facecrimes. That’s good. LOL!!

  41. Thank you for the quote from 1984. DM is so similar to Big Brother.

  42. Conclusion

    Yeah good distinction. Miscavige is a Black Dianeticist using Reverse Scientology. Evil. The soul doesn’t bleed immediately so he thinks he can get away with trying to kill souls.

  43. Pathetic on all flows.

  44. Mike Hobson

    @Bruce Clark: we are not in the Co$ now. People out here in the Real World are allowed to have disagreements with Ron Hubbard, his deeds and/or creations and *still* be Scientologists (no tm).
    Michael A. Hobson

  45. Scott Campbell

    I look forward to getting pie-faced with both of you irrepressible bastards in July!

  46. Bruce Clark

    @Mike Hobson: And, according to other LRH policy, I now have to ask you which LRH policy that you have a disagreement with are you referring to?

  47. 🙂

  48. Bruce Clark

    If you and I, and all the rest here who have somehow stood up against the suppressive usurp of Scientology, however defiant, however yet submersed in blame, shame and regret, can somehow come together to defy the imposter, then our leaving will not have been in vain. Lot’s of work to be done.

  49. Bruce Clark

    What’s in July?

  50. Let me just say this. LRH moved on 25 years ago. He was the Commodore. There is no Commodore now. Why is there an SO? A Sea Org without a Commodore and without ANY accountability is rudderless and prone to the exact evil that is exemplified in Mr. David Miscavige, and those that are supporting him.

  51. Scott Campbell


    One of the toughest guys I ever met grew up on the west side of Detroit. Every day after school it was a race for his life to make it home and they’d always catch him in a fenced off alley before he reached the safety of his house. Few were the times that he made it over the fence and into the back entrance.

    Great guy. Loyal to a fault. Couldn’t kill him with a tank.

  52. Bruce Clark

    To anybody but anybody who has in the least bit studied the policies of LRH, this piece of exposé and it’s substantiation by others (alas, multiple report!) totally nails the suppression of Scientology from atop.

    I am new to this blog, but fervently hope that all of us who have somehow stood up to the suppressive, DM can work together to render him powerless.

    Truthfully, I can surmise that each of us has had some moment(st) in the past where we could have been bolder, but past aside, we are evidently the strongest that Scientology has provided. Let’s go forward with that, and do what we can.

  53. Scotty: Right! I always said “If you can survive Detroit, you can survive anything but a marriage.”

    ML Tom

  54. Spontaneous pie face speaks louder than words…

  55. Tony, ya, them rear view mirrors are really good. In retrospect it would have been the right thing to do. But at the time you think you are an evil-intentioned lunatic for even thinking that. But that’s after all of that good sec checking and endless FPRD that handles all of that “back-off”.


    ML Tom

  56. Scott Campbell

    Mike and Marty,

    Thanks for applying this:

    “If one depends for a long time upon others or the environment to do something about it, or depends upon force, he will fail. From his viewpoint the only one who can put more life, more understanding, more tolerance and more capability into the environment is himself, just by existing in a state of higher understanding. Without even being active in the field of auditing, just by being more capable, an individual could resolve for those around him many of their problems and difficulties.

    The accent is on ability.” –LRH

  57. His POV: pie faces around him right and left. (One would think the feedback would inspire a debug…but nooooo…)

  58. Scott Campbell

    David Miscavige,

    Flunk for not applying this:

    “If one depends for a long time upon others or the environment to do something about it, or depends upon force, he will fail. From his viewpoint the only one who can put more life, more understanding, more tolerance and more capability into the environment is himself, just by existing in a state of higher understanding. Without even being active in the field of auditing, just by being more capable, an individual could resolve for those around him many of their problems and difficulties.

    The accent is on ability.” –LRH

  59. Mike Hobson

    @Bruce Clark: I don’t see the word “policy” anywhere in my comment to which you are replying.

    As for why Ron Hubbard thought he had to create the Sea Organization – “to get Ethics in so Tech can go in on this planet” is what I recall from my Basic Sea Org Member Hat.

    Well, sorry bud, but the Sea Org has completely failed to even get Ethics in on itself, seeing as it is now run by a genuine card-carrying dyed-in-wool Suppressive Person and instead of Safeguarding the Tech of Scientology, has not only allowed it to become perverted and twisted, but has used it’s power and authority to force that perverted Black Scientology into every level of the Co$.

    So, Mr. Clark, it is clearly evident to me that the Sea Org *now* has to go. Without the Sea Org doing his bidding, McSavage would never have been able to accomplish the wholesale destruction of Scientology as he has done.

    From my point of view, the whole thing was a major blunder on Ron Hubbard’s part. Do you believe that Ron Hubbard, God Bless Him, was incapable of mistakes or even blunders ? Do you worship him as an infallible god? I sure don’t.

    Michael A. Hobson

  60. Scott Campbell

    The Independents Day Celebration!

  61. Yes, me too! 🙂

  62. So now I understand what “Pie Face” refers to. Nice. DM sure is a lovely, inspiring, warm, theta-enriched individual.

    Love the pic, Mike. Particularly the “Wake me up” line 🙂

    Talking of “pies”, I had the famous Ned Kelly when I was last in Sydney. Munched on one on the boat back from Manly. Now that is a pie!!! 🙂

  63. Right about the Dean Stokes thing…
    Old Dallas Mission http://www.swissavenueproject.com/neighborhoods/peaks/files/BIG4845_swiss.jpg.jpg
    I think that a lot of people in the Dallas area are wising up that the Church has been hijacked by Miscavige.

  64. Hallelujah

    Hi Bruce,

    Nice introduction! Yes, each one of us thought at one time or another we were alone, but discovered through comm with others that we were not.

    I like your plan … “stand together.” We do and will continue to do so.


  65. Hallelujah

    Eyes Wide Open —

    Hey … let’s reverse vector all that stuff you mention in your comment. How about this:

    “I was an Int staff member. I am able to think logically and need to continue on my bridge, I may or may not need more FPRD — that’s up to the CS, I am competent, I should have been posted at Int as I earned the promotion. I am THETA and everything I do and say is THETA.”

    I expect this is far closer to the truth than you have been lead to believe.

  66. Bruce Clark

    The word, “policy,” please look it up in the dictionary. It means what it means and if I put LRH in front of it it refers to LRH policy.

    That LRH may have have not foreseen every contingent is not conclusive that he missed in his strategies.

    I too could make some suggestions as to how things could have gone better, but that you are so quick to belittle his strategy in forming the SO rather than making it work for the greater good is telling of your own motives.

  67. Grasshopper,
    Your post had me sooo close to going off on a rant about the absurdity of the SO…but I’m learning to reign in my tendencies to push other peoples’ buttons. (trying to be kinder and gentler)
    It’s a touchy subject because a lot of people had big chunks of their lives invested there. Many never knew any other Scientology really.
    I personally don’t have any problem envisioning a secular managed, corporate organization. I’ve been around long enough to have experienced it and know it is better.
    For me personally, it doesn’t matter one way or the other though. Corporate Scientology can go F*** itself. I don’t need it and every bit of case gain and fun I could ever want out of the subject is available to me right now.
    As for the long term…a reformed and SANE corporate structure would be good. Central Orgs could have a role in training auditors and their real estate would actually be useful. There’s a lot of “ifs” involved but since I do care about the billions of earthlings who could benefit from the tech, I can’t help think about these things and add in my 2 cents.
    Not holding my breath, but I’ll make myself available as a consultant when/if called upon tho.

  68. Unbelievable. The leader of Scientology dramatizing Joking and Degrading as part of covering his own ass. Per Danger Condition Policy he should have ultimately had to do the duties of those he was calling incompetent.

    He’s never successfully done Executive Danger Condition nor Danger Condition on those he was calling incompetent below him.

    He only denegrates, Jokes and Degrades.

    He’s absolutley a non standard leader and executive.

    If Tom Cruise were to study OEC Volume 0, then Tom might notice that DM is not applying basic policy.

    I think Tom Cruise, sadly, once Tom becomes more hatted on OEC policy, might someday be the sole person who makes an impact on DM.

    From this video, I take it Tom is the “celebrity” who has unfortunately followed DM’s bad example with this “Pie Face” staff denegration “tech”.

    This is such an execllent historical fishing chat.

    And good on Mike for catching a fish, some anonymous people have remarked that no one catches any fish in the dockside video chats. Glad you showed this one being caught!

    Thankyou so much Amy and Marty and Mike for all you’ve done these last several years exposing what a ludicrous imposter leader David Miscavige is.

  69. Thankyou for doing these videos. I for one, love the detailed information you can flush out of each other, for the history books.

    I my opinion the whole admin system that LRH wrote so extensively, which gives each staff in these upper Sea Org ranks their duties, which is cumulatively propping DM up.

    Were it not for the whole organizational setup, otherwise Miscavige who does not apply basic elemtary Scientology, he’d not last two weeks in any delivery unit of Scientology.

    I’ve now seen the whole full introduction to the March 13th event, and I was shocked at how his speech making is really deteriorating like Steve Hall parodied in an early comment on this blog.

    But the admin system LRH created is a strong system.

    All that the staff in the lower echelons know, is what is written and what they follow, mainly, and then the orders that come down which they perceived are “command intention” (from DM), they naturally will follow all those DM cross orders.

    But in the end of the day, it is LRH’s admin system which LRH built, which is propping up DM.

    It is truly amazing that FSO still makes so much money each week, and this whole setup still keeps going.

    I think it is really LRH, and NOT at all DM, that explains why the official Scientology organization still survives. (I personally don’t think DM can tank it. And I hope whoever picks up the pieces, after this DM era is over, I hope whoever has to deal with official Scientology’s remnants is wise enough to look at this blog, and read the truth laid out here on this blog.)

    Thanks so much for exposing how DM behaves. I wish more pairs of comparable ex senior Sea Org executives would do these types of videos and jog each other’s memories on Sea Org history like you are doing.

    Thanks so much.

  70. Mike Hobson,
    When admin is out, tech is out and ethics are out. Those are principles contained in Scientology policy, and Sea Org training.

    I can’t understand, rationally, why, if ethics is out, then one would get rid of tech and admin, rather than get in ethics. Then tech and admin.

    It seems to me that you proposing the riddance of the Sea Org is just that.

    Makes no sense to me, bud.

  71. Yes, Bruce, we are evidently those who appreciate the value of this subject and aren’t willing to let this SP get away with any of this crap he’s pulled.

    An important aspect of that is to each one continue on our way to the fullest truth we can. Scientology fully known and applied by as many as muster here and under the radar is vital for the future.

    If you haven’t already, check out friendsoflrh.com, savescietology.com and Steve Hall’s site, scientology-cult.

    There are many who have endured some pretty fine ‘shellacings’ and come through. Can’t be killed. Still going forward.

  72. GH,
    A positive first step would be to get in, for real, the Corporate Governance as detailed on savescientology.com. That governance does not include a single, only, COB over the whole works. That Corporate set up was put there by LRH. It’s very sensible and just because we happened to have a whole-track SP character come up to deal with is no reason to throw out all that planning and all the positive that the Sea Org has accomplished over its history.

    The right target is the SP. David Miscavige is the SP.

  73. There ain’t nothing like getting a good old fashioned ass beating. It does marvelous things for you when you actually need it.

    This is actually quite true, I’ve seen a good ass-whoop employed to good result in the past. But DM’s lack of gettin’ one he most likely attributes to his forceful, dynamic personality, and not the fact that the beater fears for their “future eternity”. The window of opportunity has probably passed; should someone finally “snap” and attempt to deliver a comeuppance to DM, no doubt The COB Entourage would put a quick end to that, and probably send that guy to the hospital, press charges, offload and declare him, file civil suit, publish his PC folders, send his wife to the Ukraine, and write bad things about him on the bathroom stall.

  74. DFB, too funny, your pie face guy!!!

  75. Ingrid, why swear on the Bible??

  76. I am an SP as well Bruce…I still Love You !!
    I am not an OSA person or any other member type of the “church”!

  77. My title was “Tom enturbulates me”. This is right after he tried to bust me and I told him it wasn’t gonna happen because I was SS IV – no good, man.

    ML Tom

  78. Hi Bruce, good to see another standard tech guy out here with us. I am proud that you are on board with us here. With your help, we will prevail.

    Your fellow cram off, Tom Martiniano

  79. Hey DM, u must be very tired of all the Pie Faces around you. Real happy faces are just so hard to come by in your vicinity. Maybe u even forget that it is possible for a face to look happy.
    Here are some examples for you:


  80. scilonschools

    Well time to ditch those ‘Anonymous’ masks in lieu of new ones!

    Pie Face – and i thought DM was incapable of original thought!
    Lets see LRH is the most prolific author in history and DM has bought us PIE FACE…

  81. For the record:
    French voyeur, from the verb voir (“to see”)
    voyeur (plural voyeurs)
    A person who derives sexual pleasure from secretly observing other people.
    An obsessive observer of sensational or sordid subjects.
    peeping tom
    [edit]Related terms
    [show ▼]a person who derives sexual pleasure from secretly observing other people
    [show ▼]an obsessive observer of sensational or sordid subjects
    [edit]See also

    From voir (“to see”)
    IPA: /vwa.jœʁ/
    voyeur m (plural voyeurs; feminine voyeuse, plural voyeuses)
    observer; watcher

  82. And “secretly watching other people” is 1.1.!

  83. There’s a couple of options but the first and foremost is to get the tech, flourish & prosper. The best defence against any SP, especially one who is chomping at the bit for becoming notable on the whole track is to be a product of LRH’s tech. Q1 states self determinisn is common denominator of all life’s impulses – get that squared away and generally the dynamics become more manageable.
    Marty has done very well creating a stable space on the web, it’s early days in the long haul back to sanity – get hatted is the go.

  84. I’ve thought for some time that a movie would be an excellent de-PTSing tool. The true evil that this individual is can best be illustrated in visual form. It should have the EXACT language and phraseology of Him, and shouldn’t pull any punches – literally. It would be ghastly and stomach churning, but necessary, and if done well would do more to start people “moving on up a little higher” than almost anything else. Like lancing a boil I guess. The casting director would have a hell of a job!

  85. @Bruce; many, if not most of us posting here are ex-SO. The SO no doubt WAS necessary at the time, but that time was 1966/7. This is the 21st century, and the validity of a top-down military-styled hierarchy within a religion IS a valid subject for debate (maybe not in this forum though). When the dust settles in the post-DM era there should be nothing “off the table” for discussion of reform. LRH said himself many times in many different ways that policy and admin solutions were only valid as long as they worked within the context of the society. He himself cancelled policies that were seen to be unworkable or caused out-PR. Green-on-white is not sacrosanct in the same way red-on-white is, IMHO.

  86. scilonschools

    Let’s see, what celeb has adopted this abusive Pie Face degradation with his/her staff?
    Is there a clue in your posting Marty ?

    Posted in black dianetics, ethics, int base, miscavige crimes, squirreling, Tom Cruise

  87. By reading this blog over the past (almost) two years I have become more and more familiar with the reality of D. Miscavige, the reality of a Suppressive Person. As many times as I have studied the PTS-SP materials, I didn’t truly duplicate and understand the reality of an SP. I had not encountered one this lifetime.

    In regard to the SP, I’ve now got the concepts and the mass. As a result, I can no longer be at the effect of a Suppressive Person.

    Thanks to all who posted detailed accounts of their first-hand experiences with D. Miscavige. I will forever recognize him and his ilk whenever encountered.

  88. Bruce: Not only your leaving isn’t in vain, none of your actions are in vain.

    They ALL lead somewhere, such is the nature of karma (action)

    The operative word and/or concept perhaps is are your/my/others actions helpful for others.

    INSIDE or OUTSIDE of scientology. To continue to lead ones life AS IF he/she were IN the SEA ORG, when clearly those of us who post here are OUT OF THE SEA ORG, is to continue to be caught up in a VERY PSYCH term but unfortunately REAL occurrence: POST TRAUMATIC STRESS DISORDER

    Read up about it. Reading won’t cause you to go insane, PTS, drop your body or anything we were TOLD OVER AND OVER might happen if we look outside of scientology.

    This message board is frequented by many who were IN the SO but left years and years ago, by many who were never in the SO, by those who admire all of LRH, by those who admire little of LRH.

    In other words — it’s not JUST a scientology ONLY blog. Clearly Marty is deeply devoted and carries LRHs legacy to the best of his ability; however, he is open heartened about letting others post here.

    Like me. An OT VIII former SO member who was part of the top management (before going “over the rainbow), who left in 1993 and is now a practicing buddhist.

    About to leave for the day of intense practice. Which is more than just staring at my navel. (something LRH said and I disagree with 🙂

    Did you happen to mention where you were in the SO? I think I missed that amongst all the critical remarks from you of others who post here regularly.

    Perhaps you would like to apply some LRH and do a non-existence formula 🙂


  89. My sentence about being part of top management (before going over the rainbow) — might be misinterpreted as I went over the rainbow.

    I didn’t. I stayed in CW when top management went over the rainbow. I was on full time training for Int Strata at the time. Then taken off full time training and missed the GOLDEN OPPORTUNITY to be at Int with dm …

    Whew …

    Handy how karma works. Looked like it was at the time a sad horrible opportunity missed and whew — how I lucked out.

    I have never been good at pie face. I wear my feelings all over my sleeve, face and even in my hair. You should see me during a bad hair day 🙂


  90. You know M & M,
    some days ago I just thought, how I am missing those legendary fishing videos.
    To my very pleasant surprise, you got another one.
    Thank you!

    My goodness, what is this again.
    Are you really speaking about the behaviour in the upper upper levels of Scientology management?
    What is going on here?!
    Are they real CRAZY?
    This stuff is just UNBELIEVABLE!

    So my advice, keep on fishing guys.
    Sometimes in future we will hear about the story:
    “Two man while fishing and telling incredible story’s, brought down a whole “Church”!
    I like this legend!

  91. gern gaschoen

    Off topic:

    These videos remind me of “Fishing, With John” so much, its hilarious .. have you guys seen them?


    On topic:

    I remember being castigated for not wearing pie face, one time, when I was in the elevator at the FH and suddenly in comes DM. I smiled, said hello, pressed the button to go to the floor .. got out, and oila: “Hey, you’re supposed to wear pie face around DM!”, says my co-staff member (won’t name names) ..

    Seriously! “You’re *supposed* to wear pie face around DM!” were the actual words from this cult member!

  92. gern gaschoen

    Fishing .. with “Mike and Marty” .. I’d watch this if it were on cable, no doubt about it.

  93. gern gaschoen

    The only appropriate answer is “No sir, I’m done with that. Which cocks need sucking, though?”

  94. gern gaschoen

    The current Sea Org is not applying Scientology. If it were, we’d be able to see the statistics, there wouldn’t be flaps and disaster. What you are complaining about is, operationally, a 1.1 organization – pretending to be something it actually isn’t.

    And, just like LRH says, this organizational tone is derived from the tone level of the Execs in charge…

  95. Watching Eyes

    Pie-face; just another dramatization of the incident DM is stuck in. Sounds to me like he’s trying to make people into doll bodies. They’d provide the perfect pie-face, wouldn’t they?

  96. Bruce Clark

    Thank you for this POV; I hadn’t thought of it quite that way before. But of course DM’s own survival is precarious. His ass is hung way out there and it is truly remarkable that his reign of suppression has lasted 30+ years. Providentially, he will meet his doom by some upstart wielding a sling.

  97. What a great website and a stellar group of people – smiling faces, great wins on course or in auditing, and an abundance of communication – well done!

    Kudos to Helen & Helmet & staff for persisting despite all. Amazing stats! Not only in auditing & course, but helping others in English, cooking & the arts.

    And thank you to Trey & Karen for for your kindness in lending a hand where needed. You are two very caring souls.

    Groups like this bring back fond memories of the ’70s when all were welcome, and there was genuine interest & caring for your fellows.

    Well done to you all.

  98. I laughed long and hard. Thanks, V.

  99. Bruce Clark

    Hi Tom. I knew but had forgotten that you’d been a Cram Off. And it was another Cram Off who had recommended Mark’s blog to me, Mike R. (not Rinder).

    I am finding much of what I’d witnessed and had to continually fight against being explained here. It’s very de-PTSing. I’m not sure that I’m aboard on everything because I’m still learning what’s afloat. But it sure is good to find some sanity out here in the blogosphere. It’s good to meet up with you again, Tom.

  100. GetTheConcept

    For some reason, I can’t get the video, it says that an error occurred, try again later. I don’t know if it’s a glitch on your end or mine, but I’m just letting you know in case there’s anything you can do about it.

  101. EWO,
    Thank you for sharing your Int base experiences with us! It helps all of us who never experienced these autrocities to really understand the true reality at the top of the org board. It explains so much as the effects find there way all the way down the line, even to the general public.
    Your explanation of the no sympathy tone level was very helpful. I have seen this myself. I’ve seen kind people become very uncaring.
    You also said “It has taken me a few years to realise that all of these labels are not mine.”
    I have seen and experienced what it takes to sort through the effects of reverse tech and I love this realization!
    I admire what you have accomplished! Here’s to moving on up a little higher! ml, Laura Ann

  102. Tony DePhillips

  103. Tony DePhillips

    I think the military uniform idea is not so good.
    Sort of bad positioning for peace on Earth isn’t it?

  104. Tony DePhillips


  105. Billy Jack

    Would a fear of competition cause a person to ask the questions, which left people “Pie Face”? Should it be “pie-faced”, or is that asking too much from an eight grader’s feeble grasp of grammar?

    Speaking of bullsh*t, when I first was at AOLA in the early 80s and saw people running around with greyish rags tied to their arms, I thought that was strange. When I found out what that meant, I thought it was bizarre. When I discovered that this was SOP and why, I thought it was evil. When I was asked to join the Sea Org, I knew I could never acquiesce and play that game. Now I keep reading of atrocities which transcend or mimic Hitler. I am very thankful to have never been party to the violence and the dehumanization .

    Does IT have a mother or was she sent to his wife’s prison/fate?

    What is the status of current litigation to bring about justice?

  106. The photo of Mike in Sydney is the clincher!





    1. No sir, I can’t seem to pry your mother’s lips off so I can have a chance.

    2. No sir, I heard you put all cocks in the RPF.

    3. No sir, everyone I approach tells me you’re blowing them regularly.

    4. Yes sir, and as soon as you take my dick out of your mouth, I’ll get going on it again.

    5. No sir, we cut your sister’s head off and just pass it around.

    6. Yeffirmmnfpmuffthmphsh!

    7. Yes sir, why do you ask, are you holding auditions for Tom’s replacement?

    8. Yes sir, but I demand they maintain a pie face throughout.

    9. No Sir, my Pie Face lips are not allowed to move.

    10. No sir, you put everyone in a Condition of Pie Cock.

    11. Yes sir, but only your wife’s cock.

    12. No sir, not after watching that video of you blowing your dog.

    13. Yes sir, but only when it’s necessary to get that final third swing of the F/N.

    14. Yes sir, but only when we’re short of rice and beans and I still need more protein.

    15. OMG Sir! Did you and Tom break up?!

    16. No sir, I stopped sucking cocks in order to save my strength to screw you in the ass.

    17. I only suck them if they have a proper Pie Face, I don’t want any emotional attachment.

    18. Yes sir, if you’ll lend me a pair of tweezers and a magnifying glass I’ll suck yours.

    19. No sir, the inflatable rubber COB Sex Doll has become way more popular.

    20. No sir, but if you’re looking for boyfriends maybe I could try to hook you up.

  108. The Sea Org could and should be the most powerful and able group on earth.

  109. GetTheConcept

    Never mind. I got the video now.

  110. Firebreathing Frog

    “basic goodness” ?????
    What are you talking about?
    Hitler was an angel compared to David Miscavige.
    Because of Hitler, LRH worked out Dianetics and Scientology to save humanity.
    Because of David Miscavige, the Church was perverted to the point that no auditor could be trained and so one you were, prevented to apply standard tech.

  111. Anon Orange

    What about the Watchdog Committee Chuck? LRH set that up to make sure a guy like DM could not take over and wreck everything. The WDC is pretty much the Board of Directors of a corporation, which has full control of the president of the company.
    The problem is the pussies that let DM be COB and dismantle the WDC. If DM was under the WDC, he would not have lasted more than 6 months.
    If you guys agree with me about this, then I know this stuff WAY too much! I got to get a life.

  112. I happen to agree with both Grasshopper and Mike Hobson on this, but for slightly different reasons. I was in the SO for over a decade, joined at a lowly outer lying SO unit in Australia at the age of 15 and was recruited as one of the first 10 staff into the newly forming RTC, then exiled to a small and failing Class V org … CC Dallas for my family crime of rejecting abortion and having a child. I have lived the worst of poverty in the SO (Australia … where a few of us would jump fences and find grocery store discards with expired dates from the dumpster to augment the beans and old potatoes (cheaper than rice) we were on for weeks on end) through awesome team spirit, uniforms, doctors visits, food, parties, etc. at Int where it was a lot of fun, though left me with some guilt because most SO members would never experience it. All of this above occurred while LRH was still around.

    My opinion is that the SO is a failed socialist experiment that weakens or removes personal choice and personal responsibility. Explain to me how it is right that a 13-15 year old or younger child can sign a billion year contract when they haven’t learned enough about life to determine what they want to do with their lives? How can a young person, even 18 or 19 make a decision not to have children for the rest of their life, and if they do and leave the SO they are labeled as a Degraded Being per HCO PL Sea Org Resignations? Even when LRH was around and you could have children, family time was limited to one hour a day, with the rest of the time in a baby farm … I was in RTC and conditions were appalling, other lower orgs had it worse. When your child screams because you are leaving, and the only way you can stop the screaming is tell him to push you out the door in a sick concept of “him being cause” there is something brutally wrong.

    Any organization should be run by the best and the brightest, and the organization should put together scenarios and circumstances that make it most manageable and desirable for the best and brightest. The organization must also have mechanisms in place, particularly in the case of a church or non profit to publish performance data so that all members from staff to contributing parishioners can evaluate performance, make recommendations or suggestions to management personnel and strategies.

    The SO IS an authoritarian and top down militaristic organization. Its very culture is contrary to the concept of religious freedom and the utopian human state and self choice and awareness that is the very goal of the philosophy.

    The current SO, the evolution of a 40 year old organization that allowed in its nature for a single person to become a wealthy dictator and tyrant over thousands of people living in slavery type impossibly impoverished conditions that believe they either don’t have the right or don’t have the ability to leave the game. Something is incredibly wrong with the model.

    Jim Logan, you can say “well the problem is that correct LRH policy wasn’t applied”. You couldn’t fix it when you were in so violated your billion year contract as did I and countless others. If the technology was so superior in its nature then we all should have left and built great business successes or created social organizations that changed the world. I don’t say it is all bad, but as a complete model it is demonstratedly flawed based on honestly evaluating its evolution and current condition.

  113. Veritas-Really love the second cat–Dm would’ve really made her wear a pie face. Too much expression.

  114. Howard Roark

    I don’t see how anyone can draw that conclusion. Hitler committed suicide with the Soviet army 500 meters away and closing in on his bunker. You may see some similarities but there are a lot of differences here.

  115. Howard Roark

    Totally agree. How is any of this applying the Tech? Is this how a religious leader carries himself? Would any person conduct themselves in this manner with LRH present in the room?

    Call it what you will but don’t call this Scientology. RTC and IAS are squirrel groups.

    I’m so embarrassed that I bought into and supported all of this BS.

  116. Howard Roark


    I got an attitude adjustment like that just once in H.S. – and I needed it. Still friends with the guy who knocked me out to this day.

    So you didn’t do it when you had the chance. A lot of people talk about what they would have done, but they weren’t there and they didn’t do it. No one can say for certain what they would do until they are actually in that situation. Looks to me like you’re not all talk.

    Thanks for your service in VN and in the SO. You did what you believed to be the right thing with the data you had at the time.

  117. If you can watch videos at youtube.com, you should be able to watch it. Go to youtube.com and search on “David Miscavige Black Dianetics Techniques”.

  118. Howard Roark


  119. Howard Roark

    Nice Gravitar! I am laughing outloud in Starbucks right now 🙂

    Wish I would have thought of that!

  120. Howard Roark

    I don’t know if very many people would care about the movie. All of us here are passionate about this, but most of the world could care less about Scientology. It is a bad joke to them. Miscavige and his RTC have managed to destroy any value the trademarks may have had.

  121. I think it would be a fascinating story. Once all the facts can be assembled into form I think it would make amazing material for a screenplay.

  122. Bruce Clark

    Just an added thought to those of us here that signed the billion-year contract. You know as well as I that we signed on for the long haul, even though the duration would not have been completely real at the time of signing. I do believe that LRH understood that these meat bodies do not last a billion years, and that adventures, infighting, internal suppression and many things yet to come will necessarily occur in the interim. And that solutions and organizations will evolve.

    It ain’t over.

    Personally I’ve having a great vacation, but I have not forgotten there is work yet to be done.

  123. Christie- Great interview and ‘pulling the string.’ 🙂

    Mike and Marty-

    You guys look happy and healthy. I am so happy so guys left because it had a huge impact on my decision to leave when I was quite afraid after my experience at Flag.

    Sorry you guys had to experience that but there are new visions and new potentials ahead.

    From the book Jacob Atabet:

    “Part of what I am doing is simply to show what a frontier there is in the simultaneous transformation of the body and consciousness, what an adventure there is in an embodies existence. A new vision of human nature and destiny is emerging, a vision that was not possible until this moment in time”

    Congrats to both of you on a life well lived. May the adventure continue. 🙂

  124. Jethro Is In The Zone

    Firebreathing Frog, apparently you’re not a Scientologist or else you would understand that people are spiritual beings who are basically good. This is what causes them to do themselves in in the end.

    “Hitler was an angel compared to David Miscavige.”

    Fill me in. Miscavige did something worse than genocide?

  125. Wayne Oppelaar

    After reading all of the B.S. that David Miscaviage has been exposed for doing; I think maybe he has a secret desire to suck on one himself?

    David Miscavige’s dreams would be funny to see.

  126. Joe Pendleton

    Right on, Mike Laws and Grasshopper. People can cling forever to the “not is excuse” that the “problem” is that LRH policy was not followed till the cows come home and little will change (though I’m not quite sure where the cows are or why they would want to come home, considering the hamburger and steak sit, but…..).

    LRH made a HUGE error in judgement when he decided to ape wog successful actions and model the church on a socialist/fascist/military system. Why is everyone here afraid to look at that? It doesn’t invalidate auditing technology or The Axioms or The Factors or any part of the philosophical basis of Scientology. Policy? Of COURSE, you can hunt and peck for various PLs and lines out of PLs that back up a common sense approach to the 3D, but the WEIGHT of LRH policy (and I just did a re-study of the SSII materials) is “FOLLOWING ORDERS” and finding out why juniors are so out-ethics and in non-compliance. And the PRACTICE of the Scientology third dynamic is MUCH worse.

    Backflash?????? Miscavige is very lucky that he did not have me as a junior. Because I wouldn’t have been “pie face.” One day I would have picked up a lead pipe and……well, let’s just say that Marty or Mike Rinder might be running the church right now and we all would be reading something else on the internet.

    Come up with the excuses of “not following policy” and “it’s the sp….it’s the sp….it’s the sp….” all you want. Talk about fucking WEAK AS WATER excuses!!!! Sheesh!!!! The only reason Miscavige can act as he does is because OTHERS LET HIM!!!!! Capisce? It ain’t him, baby, it’s us. I elect MYSELF as cause, not the short guy using force and invalidation. My message to SO members would have been “….then don’t LET him do that!” Yeah, the group has been “conditioned” and “brutalized”, etc etc etc. So………don’t AGREE to BE brutalized all the time. I didn’t. And stop justifying the system of the Scientology Third Dynamic. The abuses have been there since the 60s. The practice of not-isness reduces understanding – Scientology Axiom, L. Ron Hubbard.

  127. Actually Miscavige never invented the phrase “pie face”

    I mean I would never give the lil’ rabid rodent any credit for an original idea.

    Only for perverting other peoples ideas.

    Which is why he is a *Suppressive Squirrel*.

    In this case “pie face” goes back to slap stick comedy and Vaudeville and refers to the look someone has when they are hit in the face with a banana cream pie.

    Also according to the urban dictionary:

    Pie Face is a derogatory(?) phrase used by Alaskans to describe people of Eskimo or Inuit descent.

    I doubt if Miscavige knows the origin of this term because he’s a moron but I’m sure he picked it up from someone who used it probably not even derogatorily but to describe a person who reacted like they been hit in the face with a pie.

    Like “Joe looked really “pie faced” when he received news that the mission failed.”

    As such added it to his limited lexicon of words or phrases perverting its use derogatorily.

    Or he could have heard the term in middle school as a racist slur against anyone of inuit descent and decided to use it broadly on anyone he didn’t like which includes almost every one except his very special “friends” like Tom for example.

    Once you’re exterior from the scene it’s easy to see Miscavige as a *who* the most obvious one in the Organization’s demise.

    Before this I’m sure many never suspected that his intent is to destroy the Organization because due to his falsely assigned position and the authoritarian structure that has been created by the coup no one is *allowed* to question his actions without some kind of repercussion from his attack dogs in ethics or OSA who follow his orders without question.

    In true Nuremberg style.

    I know this because I’ve personally been on the receiving end of this type of action.

    Another thing that’s done is that if you do observe a major outpoint and report it that you are accused of “nattering” or “spreading Black PR” and therefore *you* must have “overts”.

    This is a direct effort to introvert someone and it is a very suppressive misapplication of Missed Withhold Technology.

    In fact false accusation of overts is a point that is handled on the Introspection RD since falsely accusing someone of having overts can either cause severe introversion or in some cases cause a psychotic break.

    Possibly what actually happened to Lisa McPherson’s when she worked at AMC for Bernetta Slaughter.

    Because before her psychotic break she was doing a series of OW write ups in relation to supposed overts she committed while working at AMC.

  128. Mike,
    What I actually said was that it makes no sense to me to not apply the sequence of ethics, tech, admin TO the Sea Org and therein resolve these issues, valid issues you relate. I did not, in some theetie-wheetie Dear Souls dramatizing, panty-waisted, ludicrous absurdity say ‘c’mon everybody, let’s just do good and apply policy and we’ll be really happy – yay!’

    In many, many instances I witnessed and participated in some of the amazing 3D accomplishments and espirit, personal morale, that occurred.

    The most fundamental policy, 3D fundamental type stuff, that covers the revamp of that which is broke. There’s all sorts of Existing Scene stuff that is crazy wide of any Ideal Scene that needs address.

    I for one, when I signed that document at a tender young age, meant to see this adventure through. I had NO idea then what that would entail. I sure didn’t figure I’d be declared suppressive after so many years of valid contribution and with such nutball injustice and downright fuckin’ meanness. It knocked the thetan wind out of me.

    I’ve recovered my breath. The billion years ain’t close to be up yet.

    I also have, I dare say, more RPF assignments, more Comm Evs, more Ethics Orders, more this and that than most. I didn’t sit around, but went at it hammer and tongs and paid my dues. I also produced consistently on any and every post I ever held and lived as large as I could at that time.

    Associated Terminals is at the top of the scale. That’s when the Sea Org operates. And every one of you tough somoma bitches that faced up to the way less than that point on the scale and still pulled your weight and did all you could at that time, with what you knew, well, I’d do it again with you and THAT is what the Sea Org is to me.

    As to family time, children and that whole Dynamic – I agree completely, it has never been adequately cared for and that is a HUGE omitted for any group especially the Sea Org.

    So there.

  129. Joe Pendleton

    One more thing – Lt. Columbo lives- re: “pie face” – when I had a high ranking CMO chief invalidating me and suggesting I might want to “find a new religion” and two more Sea Org teenies yelling at me and threatening expulsion, I was also “pie face.” I thought at the time that I was “keeping my TRs in” and was very proud of my ability in doing that (thought it was quite impressive at the time considering how caved in I felt). Now (even being the very non violent person I am) I think I was severly wrong and am humiliated at how I ALLOWED MYSELF to BE humiliated. I wasn’t “a man” and worse really, extremely ineffective as a being. I should have thrown FORCE right back and maybe even a punch or two. AT CAUSE of course. Why? Not only would it have been “appropriate”, but those mind controlled beings might have been jostled out of their trances for a while and EACH time they received some force BACK for the force and inval they outflowed, it would have made them just that more reluctant to act that way. Believe me, throw just a few punches and the other person starts to flinch or THINK about the punches for a long time. Miscavige? Well, some wog maxims are quite true, such as the one about how to handle bullies. Thirty years? Sad, sad.

  130. AO,
    Read, fully, the savescientology.com website. WDC is one of many ‘checks and balances’ LRH intended organizationally. DM has, and with not just ‘unclean hands’ (a legal term) but filthy, bloody hands, managed to bring even that structure to a state of unmock.

    Fortunately, the Corporate structure is subject to SECULAR enforcement, as LRH intended as well and that li’l gift will be the end of this li’l prick I reckon.

  131. To see the mind of David Miscavage and consequently Scientology Inc one has only to read the fabricated libel they cobble together to discredit critics.

    It’s corny, it’s perverted, it degrades women, it degrades to minimize, it lies without any conscience, to make smaller, attempt to humiliate…and most of all, it fails utterly to bring anything down to his tiny size.

    The weirdest part is they have no idea how corny they seem. It’s almost a BADGE to be “dragged through the mud” (not) hahahahaha of those bloated OSA porjects and impersonation blogs.

    They are being filmed while they go through people’s trash. They are racking up some major major boobooos.

    Because all critics are saying is DON’T ABUSE HUMAN RIGHTS and DON’T ABUSE SCIENTOLOGY.

    And teeny weeny money empowered and glutted Davey (sorry the three inches of hair don’t make you any taller, and the lift shoes are visible) can only spend his days talking about people’s breasts or enforcing his sexual fantasies on others.

    I don’t believe a thing he says.

  132. BTW Happy Mothers Day all.

    I’m a guy who cannot stand seeing women abused. Or anyone for that matter.

  133. Billy Jack

    As a “public”, you wonder what in the hell is going on? What are all the “witch hunts”? Why are the Nazis raising hell again? What is up with the sec checks and the external influences and internal influences investigations and it all seems like rampant paranoia. Who in hell needs all of the insane bullsh*t in life? Isn’t life tough enough without adding to the sh*t? You may say (or not) who the hell is this guy and why does he post here? Decades of bullsh*t and no more time for more of it. What a stupid waste of time as a result of mini-turd!!!! Ron died and it all went into the toilet and the turd came out and f*cked it up beyond all recognition!

  134. Tony Dephillips

    Very well said!!

  135. Bruce,

    Having spent over a decade in, and a decade as “public” acting or considering myself as a Quasi SO member, and then a decade out, I both understand and am uncertain by your point.

    The thing I like most about Ex SO, the point I believe we have in common … together with many staff and public, we were willing to sacrifice tremendously of ourselves to the dream of creating a better world. It is a life long mission for people, including countless that were never in Scientology.

    My uncertainty is: What is the mission? The game we played was not a good and winable game. We learned that trying to assign personal responsibility to other leaders to make the game, and we would do out parts doesn’t work. Is it clearing the planet? Is that even achievable with the mess DM and the COS have made of the name, the prolifileration of attacks and the permiation of the negative in the public arena?

    I believe we all have a responsibility, it is part of our personal spiritual evolution to work to make improvements to our world, there are many different ways this can be done effectively, from councelling, life coaching, auditing, environmental work, teaching or working with children, inventing and providing things that improve the general quality of life … stopping evil in the world, protecting the weak or innocent ….

    How do you see your commitment?

    I view it simply as a brotherhood of well intentioned and positively acting people.

  136. Tony Dephillips

    I think any organization which allows it’s members to be placed at effect through low pay or any other way is doomed to fail.
    The militaristic pattern of the Sea Org coupled with slave wages is a real losing proposition.

  137. Tony Dephillips

    I believe Hadyn told me that the Sea Org was originally a pilot to handle one aspect of Scientology. It was then perverted into a permanent management solution.

  138. Well, if you study the history it began as a facility to assst LRH with his research, especially upper level research. He developed “Mission Tech” which is the only “tech” unique to the SO during Mission Into Time. He then began using SO members on other types of “missions” and they were very successful. LRH transferred management functions to the SO when he disbanded Exec Council World Wide at St Hill. LRH said he originally went to North Africa (Morocco) and the Canary Islands to research OT III. He also left UK as he was under heavy attack and he was under threat of deportation. That the Sea Org assumed the management role formerly held by EC WW is no surprise. The international managemt of Scientology had always been where LRH was — whether DC, London or St Hill (or even S. Africa when he was there). I am not sure what Haydn may have been referring to.

  139. Joe Pendleton- Throwing some punches certainly would’ve matched their tone levels-it’s a comm they would understand and unfortunately respect.

  140. from Wikipedia, Orwell´s “1984”:

    “facecrime: An indication that a person is guilty of thoughtcrime based on their facial expression”

    “…thoughtcrime is an illegal type of thought”

    “It is the job of the Thought Police to uncover and punish thoughtcrime and thought-criminals, using psychology and omnipresent surveillance from telescreens to find and eliminate members of society who were capable of the mere thought of challenging ruling authority.”

  141. Well Tony — I dont think low pay has anything to do with it. After all Buddhist monks arent well pad. Nor are Catholic priests. And while there is a lot of corruption in the Catholic Church, the Vatican has been around for a long time. And those who man the Vatican have no or few personal possessions and they are not only forbidden to have children (a la Sea Org) they are forbidden to marry.

  142. milwaukee rocky

    Yeah his dreams are obvious. He thinks women are “dirty”. How’d you like to be married to that guy? You make love then he treats you to a ho degrade.

    BTW does anyone here know who wrote that scene with Kelly Preston in Battlefield Earth? You know the one. where she has asuper long tongue and wraps it around John Travolta’s wang? I’m guessing David Miscavige put that touch in there as a director. And here’s why I think so.

    What made me think of it is a mag sent me a link to one of the Scientology Inc Defamation & Libel sites yesterday (what a hoot!!) where they have a few celebrities listed. I didn’t realize some of them had been in Scientology. Concluded these are SMART.

    Anyway in the lame attempts to defame (some were ROFLMAO … like maybe if it was the 1950s they’d be outrageous) about one of them being a ho and wrapping her tongue around a banana. They go on trying to defame not realizing they’re giving away their own slimey minds and then it hits me, description is JUST LIKE KELLY PRESTON does in Battlefield Earth when she gives John Travolta that aliene-size blow job with some SFX two foot tongue. Is that Hubbard writing? Why is it so much like the OSA Scientology Defamation blog?

    And one last question. Does anyone know for sure who is running that impersonation blog this one?

    You guys rock!

  143. Former Flag Customer

    Thank you for the details of your story. You endured so much and I am so pleased to see a happy ending.

  144. OK, Mr. Logan, this 4th celbration we actually need to have a real conversation, drink, and if we are lucky, partake in a good old fashioned bar fight.

    Lets leave out the kids stuff, which we can probably uniformally agree was wrong.

    I read one of your subsequent posts which talked about the need to revamp, which I also agree with. My earlier response covers some of the thoughts, but there is a more fundamental aspect that I would be curious as to your comments.

    The last decade in business have taught me that the only thing of real and sustainable value you will get from a person comes from their willingness to give. When we were there and in the game, the contract was irrelevant, we were willing if not enthusiastic to give our all and more. Maintenance of this willingness is the art of management, how do you keep this willingness over prolonged periods? It is a combination of many things from acknowledgement, rewards, actually achieving things of value and taking satisfaction in such, training and education, work conditions including pay and time off, and creating a culture that allows people to enjoy doing all of this and feeling like they are contibuting to something of value … they are playing their part in making the world a better place.

    I don’t believe anyone should have the power and authoritiy over individuals as the SO has over its members, staff and public. People should have the right to pack up and leave if they decided to change their game. The free right to leave also puts increased pressure on management to maintain and improve work environments and conditions and culture.

    How does such fit, in your illusterous view, the SO, even as established in the 70s?

  145. Joe Pendleton

    Tony, you’re right. I’m not defending the Catholic Church and I happen to be familiar with the practice of Buddhism and I can tell you that no monks or priests are abused and mind controlled the way SO members are. The slave wages is just one more thing that puts the SO member at effect. If the SO member had some money saved up and a cell phone and an ID, etc, he or she would have more options and choice, which of course is what the management definately DOESN’T want them to have. FOLLOW ZE ORDERS AND NEVER BACKFLASH (which means never think for yourself). Monks are venerated by the way and highly respected and Preists ARE actually taken care of MEST wise and have choices if they care to excercise them.

  146. MostlyLurker

    The military system is not a system that cares for its people. It is based on force, and people are not free. There is no much space for ethics (subjective) or personal integrity when people have to *obey*. It easily get hijacked.

    “Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely”, remember?

    People should be free to dissent, free to join or leave a group at will and not be trapped by a fake billion year contract.

  147. Eileen Clark

    Somewhat off topic, but I’ve only just started to catch up on recent blogs:

    The reference for “benign” monarchy as discussed a few days past is:

    A lecture given on 1 November 1966

    “Everybody admits, when thoroughly pressed, that a benign monarchy is the best form of government. But in view of the fact that a benign monarchy cannot be succeeded, why, it possibly lacks a great deal in its longevity. Over a long period of time, why, governments that are set up as benign monarchs get unbenign monarchs sooner or later, and they develop themselves a Nero or something, and everything goes appetite over tin cup.”

    Does not appear to me that he “recommends” such a government in this reference. This is the reference I recalled and if I find any others will post those also.

    Pie Face 🙂

  148. Mike,

    Not that I am any fan of the Vatican (I am not), but I don’t know I agree with the correlations. Buddhists monks are very much on a spiritual journey, their days always, from what I saw, contained signficant or mandatory time for study and prayer and worship. They are not a cheap labor pool. They want to be there. Their time results in their increasing spirituality. They don’t work near the hours SO members are expected or under the pressure … they seeemed generally self motivated. I spent about three months in Asia in several monasteries and temples … it is NOTHING like the SO and helped me form my opinion about the inappropriate nature of the SO. Buddhists can leave; it can even be interpreted as part of their journey. In some countries service to the monastery is considered in a way to military service, young men dedicate themselves for a couple of years.

    Same goes with the Catholic church. I am sure you have been to the Vatican too, it is nothing like the Sea Org, people stay because of their desire to be in the service of God, or for the camaraderie, or whatever. Priests may be “counseled” or dissuaded if they discuss leaving, but the pressure to stay is nothing like the SO. Most of the priests I know make a living wage or better and could leave if they chose.

  149. Johnny d – this is getting back to “swearing on the Bible”. What I meant is the “movie” would be so full of incredible data that people would have a hard time believing it, so the people giving the testimonies would swear it was true.

  150. Tony DePhillips

    Boy Bruce you sure are a new arrival and quick to mix it up with some long time posters.
    My first impressions of you aren’t so hot.
    I hope you chill out a bit.

  151. EWO,

    Your description of the insanity and how Scn got perverted is very telling.
    You wrote:”Even after people leave that hell hole — they walk away with baggage that takes years to unravel and remove themselves from…”

    I was not at Int but concur with what you wrote about SO valence. Few months ago I just could get rid of a “tough valence” I had acquired. I was not at all aware of that I was stuck in it, still for many years after I had left the SO. Just had sometimes an uneasy feeling when being “cold” and in “no-sympathy” towards certain persons which were close to me.
    Then something happened and I could free up my emotions and realized that I had been stuck in a “tough” valence. That was quiet a relief and my life and relations with others is much better since.

    Short after I found a very appropriate article written by Steve: http://www.scientology-cult.com/whos-tough.html

  152. Tony DePhillips

    Well if one of the Popes were an SP then the low pay would become a problem because then the Monks and Priests would be in a very weak position to try to get away from the nut job if they needed to.

  153. Bruce Clark

    Re: “Why is everyone here afraid to look at that?” This may be your experience and POV but please don’t try to force it on the rest of us by claiming our disagreement (or even a lack of reality) is actually a fear of looking.

  154. Mr. Laws,
    Some of the most violated policy there is in the Sea Org is A Model Hat For An Executive. The points you cover here are all of them addressed in that policy. How to get it applied?

    I for one know that you, today, with what you’ve written and your experience since leaving the S.O. in the principles of that issue would be another exec that would apply it. How did you come to that point?

    I know for myself I got there by experiencing life both ‘in’ and ‘out’.

    Here is a quote from this policy:
    “The only capital an executive has is the willingness TO WORK. Preserve it. No person can be driven to labor-as every slave society has found out. They always lose. When a man is whipped, that work he then does still stems from his willingness alone. Anger made it smaller.”
    “Don’t confuse a clash of personalities, independence and lack of subservience with unwillingness to do. The military does this and look at it! If you only want a staff that won’t talk back, join the army-they punish people for communicating or deserting. Some very high-class bastards can do some high-class jobs.”

    I agree with every one of the things you have said in this last post. Perhaps the greatest fallacy DM has perpetrated and perpetuated about the Sea Org is that it is anything other than a self-determined decision to be a member of that group. Thetans have the right to leave a game. The S.O. is no different. The difficulty of some is the fact that thetans also have this thing about keeping their word. It’s Code of Honor stuff. That is also self-determined.

    In my own application of the Code of Honor, I joined a specific group, aligned on specific Admin Scale points and with the specific purpose of getting in the exact degree of ethics necessary to get an exact Standard Tech applied so that any being who availed themselves of Scientology would recover the right to do whatever the fuck they jolly well fuckin’ pleased, trusting that beings recovered are natively rational and ethics are reason and are created and exist because thetan invented them.

    But that’s me.

  155. Tony DePhillips

    Thanks Mike.
    I am not sure if I duplicated him perfectly but that was the jist as I recall. I don’t have expertise in this area so I defer to you. 🙂

  156. Mike — I wasnt trying to analogize the SO to Buddhist monks or the Vatican, merely to respond to the comment about the low pay being a congtrol mechanism. There is not a problem with “the Sea Org” because of its set up or rules and regulations. The problem with the Sea Org is created by the people within it, especally those at the top.

  157. What Wall,
    That you have gained this ability is worth what it cost to make it possible to gain.

    Thank you sincerely for that win.

  158. Tony DePhillips

    I hate to say it but I suspect Bruce of being an OSA bot that is trying to create dissention. He is very new to this site and speaks as if he is the second coming of LRH.

  159. You or Deep Fax are a prickly bunch to deal with, aren’t ya?

    Y’all survive Detroit, by the way?

    Nutin but respect!


  160. Bruce Clark

    Very well said. I’ll be there too, going for the long haul despite all the things I could complain about as opposed to getting the job done. And, as I read here in many comments, as opposed to not even having a clue what the real job is.

    One of the comments in this thread struck me hard, stating a scenario of, what would happen if DM dropped his body tomorrow? After so many decades and so much false data set in, would much change? What would it take to run out the group engram? Can the group engram be run now? Externally?

    Maybe these years of being out of the SO are our biggest challenge yet? I’m beginning to think that way.

  161. Bruce Clark

    Wow! that was pretty theta, Tony. I’d just had the same thought about you!

  162. Fellow Bruce —
    You keep your personal integrity, your code of honor (or honour) in and all will work out. Not a soul (sole?) here of like mindedness has any problem with that, even if the path is different.

    Thank you for making yourself known here.

    Bruce Pratt

  163. Tony DePhillips


  164. Bruce Clark

    Tony, your outright antagonism towards me is noted. I’m trying to place you; both your name and picture seem familiar. Were you on the SHSBC back in the early/mid 80’s while I was in Qual?

  165. I agree with you completely Mike.

    (Hoping that initial shock didn’t cause you to go “pie faced” 😉 )

    Saying it is about money or possessions would be an insult to most dedicated Sea Org members.

    Actually that would include most staff members and field auditors and those of us who continue to deliver actual Scientology in the independent field despite the CI and suppression

    There are easier ways to earn a buck or acquire MEST that’s for sure.

    Some of these low life “patrons” and Miscavige prove this point.

    Miscavige in particular hasn’t actually gotten a product since he was the Mission I/C of MAC or as I call it MAFU yet there he is the highest paid staff member in the Organization.

  166. Hi Jim,

    I would say that since the corporate governance as set up failed to keep DM from taking over, it needs to be revisited. Not saying it is all wrong, but it is obviously flawed.

    Yes, DM is the SP. But, why was it that despite high ranking in the church and the respect of all of us here, we had a situation of “Pie Face” when current and former church leadership was spoken to in such incredibly obscene and insane ways by supreme leader? Why did no one say “Per the By Laws of the CST, you, David Miscavige, are removed from post as COB of RTC?” Or whatever. Is there a CST anymore? If so, have the trustees fulfilled their requirements of being Class VIII AND FEBC grads AND Data Series Eval Course grads AND NOTs completions? I don’t know anyone in Scientology with such quals.

    As for the SO, I truly, truly respect those who joined the SO. I really do. It is a tough gig, and there is no act that shows a person’s commitment to the ideals of Scientology than to dedicate their life to the cause. It is noble. It truly is.

    But, where is the SO now? How is it dealing with the lack of a Commodore, and the actions of the usurper? Most SO apparently are unaware of COB’s crimes.

    Right now, Scientology is only thriving outside the SO, outside the church. Scientology only exists outside the SO and church.

    What is the role of the SO in a post-Miscavige world?

  167. Yep. Purpose is senior to policy, and policy, while important, is not natural law.

  168. Yes, I know – I was thinking of you a bit when I posted the comment above :).

  169. Wow, Mike. Thanks for that. Really.

  170. Jethro Is In The Zone

    Are you saying the only reason Hitler committed suicide is due to the Soviet army coming down? If so, you missed the point of the Hitler papers. If it hadn’t been the Soviet army, there would have been some other trigger that would have pushed Hitler over the edge. He was s already well down the dwindling spiral before they showed up. More importantly, suicide is exactly the “out” that the papers predicted. Hitler decided to commit suicide rather than doing something a little more brave. Even surrendering to the Allies would have taken more courage than what Hitler showed. Perhaps reading the HCO PL Ethics, Justice and the Dynamics will shed more light on WHY evil people do themselves in; LRH explains it better than I can.

    Also, one more similarity between Hitler and Miscavige is that they are (were) both cowards, and cowards always take the easy way out. So, whether or not Miscavige eventually commits suicide, one thing you can be sure of is that he’ll take the easy, no-confront way out. The one thing Miscavige definitely can’t confront or take responsbility for is the multitude of his overt acts.

  171. Tony Dephillips

    Actually I was at ASHO in the early 80s and got a Qual handling from someone named Bruce. It was a great handling too. If you tell me what we did then I will believe it was you.
    Even if it was you, I think you came out too strong from the box. You should try a bit more ARC before you start slapping around the regulars.

  172. Bruce,
    Hmmmm…after clearing up that word ‘prickly’ in the dictionary, I wouldn’t say that it’s descriptive of me or Deep Fax. Although both of us can have our prickly moments, I wouldn’t classify what we say as prickly in general, though I’m quite sure anyone on the receiving end of one of my brilliant dissections of their character or one of Deep Fax’s daring leaks is bound to feel pricked and bitten as intended.

    I don’t understand your reference to the Detroit thing, but I was there in the airport one time for an hour or so and was surprised to see it was so dreary and it was strange to me that all the signs were in Japanese and English.

    But back to the prickly aspect of things, I figured I’d list out some nice responses for anyone in the Sea Org who’d like to give a good one right back to the Nasty-Dave. You know, just in case they get tongue-tied and don’t know how to respond back or forgot what they planned on saying. They can print this list out and if DM comes up and asks them if they still suck cock, they can at least say, “Hold on a second, Sir!” and reach in their pocket and whip out this list and quickly select one at random, such as #19 or #16 or #11 or any of them, they all work.

    They could even comply with the Golden Age of Tech and do a Wall-Facing Memorization Implant Drill on them, there’s only twenty to learn.

    Now, if COB’s response is to punch, choke, slap, kick or throw the person to the ground, it would require shifting into Phase II as described in the manual, ‘How to Effectively Respond to COB’, available from The Emperor’s New Clothes publishing company for $24.95 plus shipping and handling with a 20% discount for Lifetime IAS members or Billion Year Contracted Sea Org Members.

  173. Bruce Clark

    No idea what we did. And I’m impressed that you’d remember. I always tried to do a good job but was sometimes more successful than others. Were you the guy who was involved with the bottomrock girsl? (rockbottom? bottomstone?)

    It’s was long time ago.

  174. Tony Dephillips

    I have no idea who the bottomrock girls are. Though it sounds intriguing.

  175. Eileen Clark

    I agree with you. The people within are the correct source of the problems. Low pay, disrespect for family and children, lack of individual freedom to think/act for oneself, plus all the other myriad outpoints that have been/are/could be mentioned are SYMPTOMS, not causes.

  176. What an idiot that guy is…still nothing to do with auditing or training. Dumbass idiot had to make himself right by printing up buttons and signs – what a walking ser-fac- face!

  177. This “Pie Face” thing is just another indication of the fear of the people around him to stand up to him.

    Dealing with people like Miscavige may be this universes last ditch attempt to keep you from getting free.

    The worse that this universe can throw at you might be located next to the final door to freedom.

  178. Wow! Perfect! I may frame this one.

  179. Ka ching!

  180. Well, sir/mame. I guess I can chalk up another humor fail.

    The prickly reference was from the point of view of the reptilian predator’s nest — they view you and Deep Fax that way. Me, I’m buyin’ tickets, trying to help keep the scene clear enough so you and your associates can continue to do those things that y’all do. There’s supposed to be a compliment to y’all there someplace.

    Now, that Detroit reference, ah, yeah, maybe that one was off –off base, off color, just plain off. Tom M below or elsewhere here made the remark:”If you can survive Detroit, you can survive anything but a marriage.” You (and DF and and and) sure are survivors, even if way above literal tooth and claw now. There’s supposed to be another compliment there.

    Humbly tendered,

  181. Tom,

    Love it. Marty told me mine was “watch him, he is trouble, major trouble”.

  182. Michael: Well, I think he may have gotten something right for once!! 🙂 🙂 🙂

  183. The Honorable Mr. Logan,

    Though I may not agree with some POV that you have, I do have tremendous respect for the strength of your loyalty and concepts of honor.

    I agree with pretty much everything you said in this post as well. Responsibility of leaders IS probably the greatest single departure in the SO. The question is why?

    I am a firm believer in form follows function. If you have a benevolent monarchy governed by LRH and MSH (and I believe MSH was one of the most unsung heroes in the creation and growth of the COS, an authoritarian structure can probably survive if not thrive. What is the transition? We have a version going now that no one likes.

    Society has also changed. RPF has no place in a modern religion, much less RPFs RPF. With modern technology and communication means there is no reason for managers to be working 18-20 hours per day. LRHs statements on things like homosexuality may have been completely appropriate in the 50s and 60s but needs consideration in this new century. How is this done? How does a Scientologist apply KSW when there are a dozen revisions of basic books and policies since LRH’s death? I don’t believe this transition and evolution was properly designed and worked out.

    In the 80s staff were under horrible conditions. Scientologist owned businesses were hiring staff part and full time, some with a desire to help, others with a pure profit motive. They were all completely an thoroughly vilified under tremendous force and threat. Did staff conditions improve? No, they worsened.

    I believe completely the concept that power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Thus I feel the need to eliminate absolute power in structures. Gier Isene has written some fascinating articles on non hierarchical management systems.

    Take a moment to consider this. If the SO were paid even $5.00 an hour together with their living expenses. All could save enough to buy a car, cell phone, and have savings that allowed them money to leave easily if conditions were untenable. The organization would have to figure out how to be more productive to support the people, today with DMs chaos there is very little productivity for most management.

    Just this would create a complete paradigm shift that would result in a process of continual improvement.

    How would managers change, how would communication and management style change if they knew their juniors didn’t have to be there, were not tied in place with “contracts” or threats of disconnection, or loss of spiritual immortality? How much more brilliant would the group as a whole become if all members were there of free will and passion?

    Could this be done under the structure even envisioned in the 60s and 70s?

  184. Bruce,

    Reading many of Marty’s posts, I believe it is DMs design and intention that the remaining SO staff KNOW THEY CAN NOT SURVIVE WITHOUT HIM.

    My time out has been just as, if not more challenging, but equally rewarding. Some really miss the SO life, I miss aspects of it, particularly the camaraderie, but I enjoy being able to chart my own course. Marty has recommended Victor Frankel’s “A Mans Search For Meaning” which I also strongly recommend as something that helped change my life.

  185. You are welcome, but I am unsure what warranted the “thanks”.

  186. Mike,

    My appologies, I may have responsed too quickly without giving proper thought. Logan got me on a roll (no offense Jim!).

    As mentioned above, I am not certain that the SO structure, definately as it is and perhaps even as it was is a viable structure as it gives too much almost absolute power to too few. A 17 year old messenger should never be able to, on her own whim, assign a senior veteran to the RPF with minimal recourse.

    When I first got in business, I followed concepts that I had “learned” on things like payroll … the concept that such is a zero sum game. We have since learned that with people nothing is a zero sum game. The lowest paid person, in the most challenging of times can come up with a game changer. We don’t believe minimum wage is a livable compensation so pay it to no-one, $10 is the lowest we pay anyone and do not have anyone at that level currently. We also provide health insurance, 401 K, paid holidays and paid vacations, probably paying double or more than our compeditors pay their employees for some positions. Yet, we are more productive, charging the same as our compeditors, probably making the same or better profit levels as the best of them. When people are individually empowered we have found they become tremendously more effective.

    My point on the SO; the individual needs to be more empowered and more independant if optimum value is to be gotten from them.

  187. LOL, absolutely!!

  188. RJ,

    I have received data that indicates DM may well be receiving a million dollar + personal salary now on top of his millions of dollars in annual perks. He is highest paid in the organization by a long shot! 94 he was being paid a quarter of a million dollars a year, 80s he was being paid $100,000 a year. Plus perks at the level of a billionarie.

  189. WindWalker

    Mike Laws

    “How do you see your commitment?
    I view it simply as a brotherhood of well intentioned and positively acting people.”

    I like this very much.


  190. He has a Big personal wallet and iy is called IAS

  191. Are you this Bruce. Are these your expieriences ?

    @ Mina Vanderbilt. Well I am an ex-Scientologist and I am ex for a very good reason. I was 5 when I was absorbed into Scientology and later the Sea Org. I do not need to read the New Yorker to know what Scientology’s policies are with regard to labour, families, or formal education; because I have spent the rest of my life living with the consequences. I know what I’m talking about. I grew up in Saint Hill and played with Ron Hubbard’s children. My mother was a Scientology staff member for 50 years – many of those were as the head of the local organisation. But, wait, I’ve got a ‘personal beef’. I can’t possibly know what I’m talking about.

    You sound like just another another one of those blind, deaf, dumb and stupid Scientologists, who insist on phoning me every few weeks. Get a clue.
    Bruce Clark on Tue, 15 Feb 2011 at 09:57


  192. Ugh! Big surprise here. Didn’t know these pages existed. But no, that is not me. There was another Bruce Clark, from ANZO, I believe. I am OT IV and have done lots of FPRD, but sadly, never did the Briefing Course.

  193. Too funny! That protein response was a gem!

  194. wow, i never had a photo of the old place, thanks for that!

  195. wow, i never had a photo of the old place, thanks for that!
    i am still curious as to the fate of stokes? perhaps he was paid off and has remained silent.
    maybe those were the good old days, i didnt have to escape… i was thrown out on my ear.

    i always wondered why flag was concerned with the likes of me. i guess that restored my faith in scn enough to keep me going online for another five years or so.

    now, as far as i can tell DM just didn’t want any competition.

    um um doesn’t that roof look cosy? lol

  196. The Thanks was for writing such a well-written critique of the SO.

  197. Grasshopper,

    You are welcome, though I don’t know if it was as well written as it was passionate.

    For me personally, the game is not so much about the tech, though I defend peoples rights to believe and use, and the right for me to use it again in the future if I so choose, but it is about people. Friends, coworkers, people I spent my youth with and loved, it is about relationships with them, working with them and helping them and being helped by them to bring hapiness, success and meaning to our lives, to help return meaning and purpose to our existance.

  198. ArcherDeborahann

    Hey Bruce, are you still available for communication? Earlier you asked Tony DePhillips “Were you the guy who was involved with the bottomrock girsl? (rockbottom? bottomstone?)” What were you referring to, why were you asking about the bottomrock girsl? (rockbottom? bottomstone?)?
    Who were they and what was with them?

  199. Okay, Hi, so does this mean you will answer the questions I have asked? By the way I normally don’t communicate on these things. I’m willing to do do direct email if needed especially if something in your response might be uncomfortably personal to someone. If ya don’t think so then tell me about the bottomrock girsl? (rockbottom? bottomstone?)? Who were they and what was with them?
    If you need to know why I want to know, because I think I knew who you speak of.

  200. You’ve got mail . . . there

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