Mike Rinder: The Antithesis of David Miscavige


Mike Rinder was written up today by editor in chief at the Village Voice Tony Ortega:


Tony focuses largely on the critics of Mike.

Now, the rest of the story.

I’ve alluded it to it before. But, now I’ll make it crystal clear.  Mike Rinder was beat on the order of fifty times by David Miscavige.  The reason is simple.  Mike Rinder was the shock absorber between David Miscavige’s psychotic intentions and the public at large.  Pure and simple.

I witnessed many of the beatings.   This is typically how they would play out.

Miscavige:  Rinder, those protest signs are aimed at one person and one person alone, me!  What the f*** is OSA doing about it?

Rinder: (calmly, cooly) Sir, we are re-routing the staff and public so that no one sees them.  We are investigating the instigator to determine if some vested interest is behind this…

Miscavige: (turns to Marty)  Did you hear that SP?!   He couldn’t care less.  Totally nonchalant.   He is perfectly fine with ME getting smeared!  (turns to Rinder) You f****** SP!  I don’t want the sons of bitches “investigated”, I want them destroyed!  Squashed like F****** cockroaches.  Get that fat Nazi bitch Kurt Weiland up here Shelly.  Get f****** OSA to make up signs now about the pig who started this – and get some real public who love me – unlike this SP Rinder – go picket his f****** house.  (turns to me, points at Rinder) Look at him, he’s just sitting there…I have to handle everything, even my own defense…f****** pie face.  (Miscavige cups his hand and whacks Rinder full force on the ear, storms out of room cursing up a storm).

(Rinder is his inimitable, diplomatic style quietly interjects himself back into the cycle, editing OSA’s signs so that they are not so blantantly unlawfully threatening.  He also sustains another beating or two for reporting directly to Miscavige that the public in front of such-and-sos home are creating a terrible PR situation. Ultimately, after three vicious beatings Mike survives when a PR flap of magnitude intercedes and Mike has got to clean up, dress up and appear on national TV as the public face of Scientology.  Mike somehow regains his equilibrium and comes across as the calm, rational guy he is. Only then does Miscavige stop obsessing on the protesters and Wieland wisely and quietly follows Mike’s advice and calls off the dogs)

No exaggeration.  I’ll give examples in my book – but this is a distillation of a day in the life of Mike Rinder at the International Headquarters of Radical Corporate Scientology.

Yeah, I got choked up in Germany. And I’m choking up now because fact of the matter is every time (and they were multiple per week) that I served as a sounding board for Miscavige in this wise, I not only perpetuated the destruction of Scientology, I allowed a great man and a good friend to be tortured and denigrated.

But, Mike is the living proof of one truth Nietzsche offered:

What doesn’t kill us makes us stronger.

Mike Rinder is perhaps the strongest man I know.

Mike Rinder was and is a better man than I.

190 responses to “Mike Rinder: The Antithesis of David Miscavige

  1. I think you are a good man and Mike too.What you are living to expose the truth is pretty tough even on Tigers.I hope that the Church will reformed
    and that we could really work on clearing this place because it is pretty crazy to operate on this planet.
    May the Gods help us a little bit,

    peace be with you


  2. “You’re a good man, Charlie Brown.”
    Something I often heard growing up, when I lived up to the integrity needed at the time.

    … and you are to, Marty. A good man.

    Mike probably doesn’t get enough credit for his part in the tide that is turning on DM right now. His work with the BBC, his connections with the international press and communication with them since he left the church, all of it and more should earn him accolades. Goodness knows what he’s been doing that we HAVEN’T heard about!

    Though Mike may not be tech trained like Marty, his contribution is no less. He has been by Marty’s side, despite the history spoken of above. It would be easy for anyone in his position to say,”Screw you, Rathbun! Get bent!” But he’s bigger and better than that.

    I was thinking the other day, watching the videos of Marty in Germany, how Mike has done much as well. That Mike shares in this blog, and does not have one of his own… can often keep the light on Marty and not on Mike. Now, if I were Mike… personaly, I’d be glad to not be in the spotlight. Hell, he lived in it for years! It’s gotta be old by now.

    But whether he wants attention or not, wants praise or not, believes he is appreciated or not, the fact remains his contribution to the Independent movement is Huge and Significant. And is also appreciated. Because he’s an Aussie, i’ve managed to toss a joke or two his way. All the Aussies I met in LA had GREAT senses of humor, so I felt I could indulge. But my humor should never be confused with j & d. He’s an AUSSIE!

    Mike… Good on ya, Mate! Keep up the good work! 🙂

  3. Marty. Thank you. I am lost for words….

  4. Agreed Marty.

    Without a doubt Mike Rinder is one of the finest individuals I’ve had the opportunity to meet and work with (even if only on occasion).

    You are on that very short list also.

    Thank-you both for all of your heavy lifting,

    Vic K.

  5. This is awesome.

    Mike- you really are an amazing guy as is Marty.

    Hopefully we can meet one day. I would really like that.

    Until then, may the force be with you.

  6. Mike and Marty, it’s hard to comment on something as personal as this post. But, Marty, I know where you’re coming from. Mike, you’re just one of a kind. There’s no one else like you — with your abilities, skills, sweetness, toughness, judgment, focus, integrity. Nobody at all.

    Guys, I respect and love you both so much.


  7. Freedom Fighter

    Marty, it takes a big man — a good man — to recognize when he’s made mistakes and then take responsibility for them the way you are doing. I have a great deal of admiration for anyone who can do that. Thank you for doing so. This is a luxury the militant midget doesn’t have. As a result, he will continue to auger in while you will continue to move on up a little higher.


  8. Both of you are giants. Rinder is an Icon and you are as well. But what makes both of you special is that you guys are not doing this for you. Correct me if I am wrong, but I see that you both are doing what you are doing now for your love of LRH and for your love of mankind. Coupled with the fact that your responsibility levels are out the roof makes youse guys formidable giants of the indy game (I was careful not to use the L word).

    ML Tom

  9. The roof , the roof, the roof is on Fi – Yah!

    We don’t need not water, let the……..

  10. I agree FF. Marty has taken responsibility for it publicly, and that takes some confront. My hat is off to him.

  11. Marty, you and Mike are BOTH good men. Don’t ever forget it.

  12. Well done guys. Truth marches on. Mike has a very calm and intelligent way of leading it….

  13. Martin Padfield

    A moving and apt post Marty, and fitting tribute to the great man. Although I only met him twice in person (so far!) I concur absolutely with your sentiments. Courageous wouldn’t even begin to describe it. It’s incredibly gratifying to know he has a wonderful partner and new family now. Mike, we love ya man! See you back in the UK (where secretly you know you belong) very soon!

  14. It is so funny, as an outsider.

    Although, if I keep following you guys and learning more and more about the inner working of the Co$. I will no longer consider myself to be an outsider.

    But, as of today, as an outsider, looking in at Rinder all this time. Knowing what had gone on behind the scenes and then to see him get in front of a TV camera and: Unflenchingly defend the church of Mismanage.

    I have to feel, that the day Rinder left Scientology. That was the day they lost the entire operation.

    It sounds to me, that while yes Rinder could be a prick and could be a defender of the kool aide. But, everyone I hear from seems to like and love Rinder. He looks like a great guy, looks like he would be the Dad you would want to have. Looks even keel and centered.

    So, I have to believe, that the “church” will NEVER ever live down Rinder turning and GTFOT.

    Rinder was the nail in the coffin on POB.

    After Rinder turned, I hear a lot of others inside thought” well if Mike Rinder can turn” there must be something wrong in this church.

    The church may not be happy and may want to squelch Marty and Magoo and others, but (as I see it) Rinder was the last straw for a lot of people.

    Rinder = nail, coffin.

    God speed to you all.

    I am still here in OKC, with my popcorn ready, waiting on the FInale.

    I am so anxious! Just wondering, how this movie will end?

    Will Miscaviage kill himself or he will go the way of Neidermeyer in Animal House and have his own Sea Org troops kill him?

    Will DM and TC, hide in a bunker and go out Hitler/Braun style?

    Will Rinder, one day be voted the head of the NEW Church of Real Scientology?

    Or ….

    Ahh Screw it, Ill quit wondering and just watch the Finale!

    Cheers and Beers from OKC

  15. Such a well written article, thank you. I don’t know how Mike Rinder has survived the incredible suppression from “Dave” over the years, but he has certainly demonstrated a Phoenix rising, and I am glad. Keep in mind he has lost touch with his children due to DM’s enforcement of the insane disconnection policy’s. The topper was the ambush from his ex-wife, brother and child in the Florida parking lot last year.

    My hat is off to Mike R.

  16. I am so glad that you survived all the bad stuff and have come out the other side, and are able to use what you know to help the rest of us. Our hat’s off to you! Hopefully soon, you will be reunited with your family members from whom you have been disconnected; as the tide turns and others become enlightened to the abuse. Thank you for all that you do for the Independents!

    Much love,
    Catherine Von Ach

  17. The image of the buffer between the raging issues in DM’s universe, and the world outside of that turmoil was brought into sharp relief.

    Mike I appreciate your efforts way beyond the tolerance level of any oridinary man to attempt to make sense of the insensible David Miscavige and hold back the confusion and try and contain it.

    I thank you for stepping back, releasing the stable datum you presented to this madness, and exposing it.

    In the end, the confusion will run out as the process is applied. Were it not for your acts as a Third Dynamic Auditor facing up to and applying truth to this aberrated organism, we as beings on all of the Dynamics wouldn’t be where we are today.

    Thank you Mike Rinder. I am deeply honored to consider you my friend and to have been beside you all these years, knowing with just knowingness, you were there with a large shoulder to this wheel.

    (Of course now you have to pass me on meter drills so don’t go gettin’ the idea I’m going to go slack or something 🙂

  18. I like Mike Rinder. I have always liked Mike Rinder.

    As a target of the type of spying that was done by OSA under Mike’s direction, I speak from experience and history here. I did not like being harassed and spyed on. Who would? There was a time I was angry at Mike for what was being done. I have friends who are still angry about the spying that was done.

    But I never stopped liking Mike Rinder.

    To me it was a matter of time. How much time would it take for intelligent people like Mike and Marty to realize that they were working for the wrong side?

    David Miscavige was the true enemy. Not those of us who decided to leave rather than put up with his bull shit and suppression. Because we left, we were targeted in order to ensure our silence and to be honest, it worked. I was silent in public for a long time.

    But then Mike and Marty realized what was really going on and decided they had to leave too. And they have had the guts to take on the beast and expose what has been going on in order to help others find the real truth.

    That is when I decided to join them and add my small part. They have provided real leadership and look at the changes that are occurring.

    I still have some by passed charge in regards to what happened to me and someday, I will get it handled.

    But one thing I know for sure. Thanks to Mike Rinder and Marty Rathbun, more and more of my friends caught in the trap are seeing the light and seeking their own freedom.

    For that, I am grateful and consider Mike and Marty true friends despite anything that was done in the past.

    I knew back then, these guys were good guys. They are the good guys now. It was just a matter of time.

  19. Mike, I admire you so much. You are able to take a stand for the deepest convictions you have, acknowledging abuse destroys people, and creating awareness for abuse. The abuse you were the victim of is inexcusable, yet you have risen above your adversaries and remain strong and unbending to the harassment that has surrounded you. Thank you so much for teaching me valuable lessons concerning Scientology, the ability to rise above being a victim, and the ability to have enduring self-respect, healthy self esteem, and the ability to stand up for what I believe in.



  20. Back when I attended Int Management events in the early 1990s, I thought Marty and Mike were the highlights of the events. I am happy to see them back on post for real and doing their jobs.

  21. You and Mike are both displaying consistent and continuous excellence of character throughout this ongoing situation. This is why you are increasing in every way.

    It’s humbling, quite frankly.

    Toughness incarnate.

  22. To all who have commented so kindly, thankyou for your words of support and encouragement. While I certainly don’t consider life to be a popularity contest, but rather a contest of staying true to your own integrity, it is very gratifying to know I have so many friends. People I have come to know newly in the last couple of years, people I have come to know again, and people I have known for many years. The beauty of what Marty has created with his blog and his courage is that nobody stands alone. It is no longer possible to isolate individuals and from that comes enormous strength.

    There are many, many people who do a great deal who are not acknowledged and do it anyway because they know it is the right thing to do. And I know many of you and your support and strength gives me great comfort and the knowledge that you are out there is of inestimable value.

  23. I think it is not me alone that has some points in the past (especially while on staff) one is not proud of. All the auditing in the world might release some charge BUT it cannot undo what had been done or do what had not been done. In case time travel would be possible I would spend all money I have to make some past things undone. But it is not possible. I try my best to no longer blame myself for doing or not doing something and THIS requires that I do not blame others for their acts they would love to undo. This might not be the optimum action, but insisting that bad things had been done in the past triggers bad things in the present and maybe future.

  24. Clearwater Lawyer

    Marty, thanks for sharing this with us. Those that were once in the cos may have a continuous awareness of the torture and seemingly impossible situation that Mike (and you?) endured. Your write-up today well illustrates the reality of Mike’s experience, and, having never been in myself, it helped me comprehend his experiences and the amazing strength he had to survived it. He is an awesome aussie!


  25. Me too. Because of both of you.

  26. Really shocking that David Miscavige would treat a volunteer in that manner. He expects so much from the volunteers. But I don’t know how he feels he has the right to punish and abuse volunteers. He isn’t a volunteer, he is on executive payroll and abusing volunteers? I am glad Mike isn’t volunteering there anymore. That is plain injustice.

  27. John Fennessey

    Good friends are those who are willing to take a beating for you. Those who are willing to take repeated beatings in the belief that it will benefit or protect you are so rare that one could question that such men even exist. But LRH had and has such a friend in Mike Rinder. And it is impressive that Mike continues to protect his friend at the cost of estrangment from his family. Whomever can count Mike Rinder a friend, has indeed got something special to be valued. The day Mike Rinder walked away was the day it can be said that LRH left the building for the last time.

  28. Marty, agreed 100% about Mike. I witnessed the abuse that Mike took during the What Is Scientology? evolution that Dan Sherman, Trevor Meldal-Johnson (RIP) and I did and Mike was the lightning rod for all our many “screw ups.” Mike could have taken it out on us, especially me as I was S.O., but never once did. It takes a big thetan to swallow the evil in the world and thereby get rid of it.

  29. Marty,
    Thank you for this very well written and touching acknowledgment. You are a good man.

    I think you already know how I feel about you. I am also lost for words. Just know that I am your friend, and I will always have your back.

  30. Mike! I got the Balderdash ready!

  31. And the blackberry buckets. LOL.

  32. Thank you Luis. The feeling is mutual.

  33. martyrathbun09

    I was thinking something similar this morning. The day Rinder had no other option but to leave is the day the church of Scientology began its death throes.

  34. Dan — thanks. You have been a friend for many, many years and I have met a lot of people in that time, but few with the innate kindness, intelligence and sense of humor that you possess. And you are a damned good writer too! Oh, that WIS book was an engram! And the end of the story — after it was all done and I was on the ship for the release event — almost physically done — I was busted for not jumping up with a “standing O” in the middle of the release in response to something that was said. But I look back fondly at the good things and the fun we had in amongst the shit. You were one of the few people Trevor respected that he worked with. He was the best editor I ever met, and his approval of your wokr was a real badge of competence! Hope you are enjoying Svenska and getting yourself prepared for the long, cold winter. Be well my friend.

  35. John, this is a bit of an exaggeration! I well recall your kindness and good humor all those years ago… THanks for that. It is people like you that never let me forget the number of good people in Scientology. Just decent, caring, funny people who give a shit. I just wish that so many of them would wake up and smell the coffee….

  36. Well, I think you are pretty awesome too.

  37. I have to say, it baffles me that Kurt has not been able to rise above that situation. I am shocked that DM would label him with an item as you descibe above. He is a HUGE being. With a HUGE volume of theta. I ask, who did David Miscavige ever show respect and gratitude towards except Tom Cruise? If you can’t be grateful for volunteers and their contributions you can’t be grateful for anyone. That is plain injustice. And, as Hubbard pointed, Injustice always recoils. Let it whip.

  38. Mark Fisher,
    You are one of those good guys too. Thank you for all you’ve done so far, and I’m happy we are back for both our futures.

  39. Mike, Oh, yeah, there were tons of laughs during that project. I think Trevor is the one person who could have talked some sense into Danny and what he has become (or not become). I really miss the guy. He could smell the bullshit and was not shy about announcing it.
    And, yeah, we are enjoying Sverige enormously (though I am losing two out of three falls daily to the Swedish language in my classes). If you are interested we have a blog at http://movingtosweden.org that follows some our adventures.

  40. Gentlemen,

    I’ll keep it short and sweet: You’re beautiful beings!

  41. Wherever a person starts out his life, it is his personal integrity that determines How he handles those “forks in the road” and where he ends up. The fact that Marty and Mike weren’t bought off is the first big indicator of their personal integrity. To me a Scientologist on the 3rd and 4th Dynamics are true to the goals of helping of others-that is what I and others got in to do! Just because it’s hard to do, doesn’t mean it can’t be done. Thanks Marty and Mike for being the examples we all need.

  42. Knowing full well that you are reading this blog today David Miscavige, and in light of the clarity with which Mike Rinder’s role in containing your vicious intent is now apparent, I have something to say to you regarding another being you have between you and inevitable justice.


    You attempted to smash what she and I alone created. You have kept her under you, carefully working her with a crumb here and a tassle there, and all the while undermining.

    Today she is sick in body and perhaps failed in purpose – for now. And still you fear her while you watch her die.

    I swear to any Gods that are, to every being who is part of these Dynamics and to you personally – there WILL come a day when I stand before you and YOU WILL ACCOUNT.

    Mark my words. I WILL.

  43. Tony DePhillips

    Mike I used to watch you speak at the Int events and I thought:’Damn this guy sure seems calm and sane!” Then when I found out you had left the Sea Org and that dm had hit you I knew it was true that dm was a madman and that we were all in a dangerous situation. Thanks for being a true leader and doing so much to help others.
    That was a touching tribute only made possible by the fact you are a great man.

  44. Floating Needle

    Well spoken.

  45. Dan — you are right about Trevor. There are a few others on this blog that knew Trevor well and we are all of the same opinion. Dan fell into a hole when he no longe had Trevor around to prop him and keep him real. I read your blog often. It is charming, entertaining and a joy to see you in your new world obvioously so content.

  46. Jim, we are all witnesses to your oath.

  47. David Misc.: “those protest signs are aimed at one person and one person alone, me!”

    aah, the burden of missed withholds !

  48. There’s an old military saying – “up the guts with plenty of smoke”.
    It means to advance boldly, directly against the enemy, in the open and the smoke cover confuses the enemy of just how many of you there are, but it sure as hell tells them that you mean business and you’re coming to get them.
    Both Mike and Marty both have the fortitude to do such an attack against the corruption of the legacy of LRH. This is one battle that will not be lost. Their friendship is an inspiration

    Here’s a link to a hurt and upset Cof$, who could anyone be so mean to them?

  49. I have been reading about Scientology for the past two months, as I recently retired and have the time to research subjects of interest. I am overwhelmed about the courage that both Mike Rinder and Marty have demonstrated over the last few years. Mike, specifically, literally changed in appearance from his John Sweeney interview prior to leaving the church, and to how relaxed and content he looks today. I have such compassion for you two guys and all of the people who have “blown”. DM is a disturbed individual that must be stopped. I can’t imagine that this will continue much longer. Don’t all victims eventually reach their limit??? Or is their limit death?

  50. one of those who see

    Marty and Mike, 2 great men in an impossible situation. That you both could get exterior enough to the scene while in it, to think straight enough to get out was OT in itself. And now you both are helping restore sanity to those hurt and confused by the Church and making it possible for real Scientology to be practiced in Freedom.

    Marty, thank you for your honesty. You are a real man.

  51. +++++ WOW, what an entry. +++++

    It is hard to say anything sensible to this very personal words of you, Marty except a BIG ack.

    I’ll give it a try.
    Mike Rinder is in my eyes a real man in Texas terms.
    I don’t know you personally (YET), just from your SCN interviews, your fishing video clips and from your comments on this blog.
    To me it is just amazing, after all the bul&@it you went through, how you still kept your fine art as a being, friendliness, high intelligence, coolness and willingness to help.
    What is also very amazing to me is, the very high altitude from which you comments and operates in general and last but not least your humour.

    I think, there are very view things in life, which a man really wishes in his heart, then the friendship you have found (again) in each other.

    And this is in my eyes priceless.

    Mike Rinder you are an amazing and a good guy.
    Marty Rathbun you are an amazing and a good guy.

    You are both GREAT fighters and BIG players.

  52. I weep for the pain.
    I rejoice for the victory of freedom.
    I celebrate the cleansing of truth.
    I give thanks for both Mike & Marty.
    I applaud your courage.
    I appreciate all that you do.

  53. Mike Rinder is a VERY good man. I trust Mike. I love Mike.

    It is because of Mike Rinder, in very large degree, that I am out.and I am FREE.

    Since I have left the C of S, either I or my husband have called upon Mike for his help on at least 5 or 6 occasions and he has never once failed to help us and has done so in a timely and unselfish manner that has, to be honest, surprised me because of how busy he is and because he could play the self importance card and NEVER ever does.

    Mike Rinder rocks!

  54. 🙂
    “Two roads diverged in a wood, and I—
    I took the one less traveled by,
    And that has made all the difference.”
    Robert Frost

  55. I wholeheartedly agree.

  56. Jim
    When I saw the word you had uttered was ‘Annie’ I felt the impact of your wrath.
    I’m not a vengeful soul but I hope you make him pay dearly for what he did to her.
    Some things go beyond crossing the line.

  57. one of those who see

    Simple, beautiful and true.

  58. The Mike Rinder Tribute Band....

    Isn’t it interesting that Mike Rinder is the stable datum as far as sanity is concerned in the C of S? Yes, it’s a comment on Mike’s sanity, but where one has to specifically mention that one is sane, by inference means that it’s unusual.

    Mike was a huge influence on me as a young SO member, and remember some of the advice he gave me in his usual, ‘you have your opinion, I have mine…’ but still respecting a viewpoint. He encouraged me to find my own position and hold it, and for that I am truly grateful.

    Shame about his cricket team though….


  59. Ditto !!!

  60. For 9 years I researched like crazy because I knew something was wrong with the C of $. Marty’s brave confession(s) turned my world on its ear. I knew instantly Upper Management, (I mean you, DM) had not only tolerated this kind of behavior but also was the SOURCE of this insanity. Thanks, Marty and Mike. You guys rock!

    A man who takes away another man’s freedom is a prisoner of hatred, he is locked behind the bars of prejudice and narrow-mindedness.
    Nelson Mandela, activist, South African president, Nobel Peace Prize (b. 1918)

  62. Tony,

    Very good observations on Mike. What went on behind the scenes at the various event venues ( Ruth Eckerdt in CW, Starlight cabaret at Freewinds, IAS circus tents in UK and Shrine in LA) throughout those years was just unbelievable and complete entheta fests. They were similar to the vignette Marty wrote up, no joke and it is totally amazing how well Mike did as a regular speaker. With not much sleep and regular meals! We shared many frequent flyer miles.

    Mike was always a gentleman, despite thick and thin, with no sleep, pulling off many impossibles and keeping his dry humor always, despite all odds!

    Though I observed many things on flow 3 basis (others to others) for years and never directly saw the actual physical abuse, there were other indicators apparent to me such as facial coloring, person’s indicators, etc. Mike and Marty had many meals with the PoB, leaving with pretty serious BI’s which I know didn’t come from bad food. There were years of rough times such as those during the Lisa McPherson court cases in Clearwater with the endless meetings with many lawyers, PI ops to CYA of POB and his causation of the entire mess! It is surely one of the most expensive derrieres saved by now. Most of the physical abuse was after I left, realizing the insanity of it in 01.

  63. It seems that we have the 2 bravest men on earth here together to do what they are doing now. There’s just one thing I cannot get, no matter how hard I try:

    Why doesn’t one of you sit on top of SCN now? Why did you both follow orders of this insane bully. What I have learned so far is that you were all about the same age and close friends. I just can’t get why exactly the SP made it to the top despite all this PTS/SP technology and not Marty or Mike. All the “explanations” I heard so far were not really convincing to me.

    With every article you write about the nature of this midget, I understand less how you could support such an idiot an obvious SP.

    Maybe somebody can help to clear this riddle.

  64. I enjoyed the blog-it brought back great memories of Norge(Norway).It seems so far from the maddening crowd.

  65. Thanks Sindy. I believe anyone who worked as long and dedicatedly as you and Dave in a Class 5 org — with little remuneration or thanks, and out of the sincere effort to do what you could to help others, deserves nothing but respect and admiration. In many ways, I think people like you demonstrated persistence and a willingness to forgo your own comfort for the sake of others as much as, if not more than, most of us who were in the SO. I am very happy to have met you and now consider you friends. And if there is something I did that helped you attain freedom, I am happy about that! Mike

  66. Sara — you are even an brighter and more intelligent woman today than you were as one of the most irrepressible and competent executives I ever had the pleasure of working with. See you soon. Mike

  67. It will be interesting to see what DM does when the right condition is assigned to him by life. He will get worse than a slap in the head.

    Mike is one cool operator. I would have failed the test had DM hit me. Bang, right back. Then, god knows what.

    I sense another big hitter from the current management team is soon going to join our ranks. Imagine a picture of Mike, Marty and Heber on this blog.

    Come on, Heber, deliver the deathblow to the stunted maniac. When you leave, the cult exodus will become a stampede.

  68. Some good words there too.

  69. Well said John Fennessey!

  70. I’m with you Brian. Having met and worked with you and other tough individuals (me, you, Joe and Pierre together last summer) I can honestly say the very best people are those outside the COS. Hope to meet all of the “greats” in the near future. I truly love people who are willing to make things go right.

  71. I really hope the example conversation started out as reported because I get a warm fuzzy feeling thing that Misgavige understands (has had the cognition) the the protests are all about him. David Miscavige runs the church of scientology and is responsible for it being corrupt and corrupting. David miscavige is lucky I don’t believe in hell. (Oh hai OSA – Miscavige gets another mention to report back)

    BTW is it true his nick name, perhaps pet name, was poodle? That’s what every else says, though now they say squirrel.

  72. +me 🙂

    Admiration that’s earned comes from honor and integrity given.

  73. So very true, Sam. We’re all here because we got forked.

  74. +1 (I’ll throw a torch for you and Annie on DM’s bonfire)

  75. George M. White

    Mike and Marty,
    I never heard of either of you until one day I picked up the St. Pete Times in Apollo Beach and read the Truth Rundown story. I was just outraged by the references to the violence by Mr. Miscavige. Both of you have a great deal of courage. You are providing a valuable service. As I followed the blog, I was again shocked when I saw the “goons with cameras on their heads” invade Marty’s home in Texas. Who would do such a thing? Mr. Miscavige is just is not aware of his negative impact and really bad kamma. Every time I hear the story of Miscavige beating on Mike Rinder, I want more and more to personally confront the boy.
    Stay strong in the cause of religious freedom.
    May all beings be well and happy!.

    Much loving-kindness,

  76. Mike and Marty, I admit that my own personal feelings on the matter are that a book by you and Mike would be earth shattering in the Church of Scientology. There is one lesson I have learned from critics that is hard to forget. If the things that happened to me happened to me then how and why could similar or worse things not happen to anyone else? Right. Hence the reason why I have learned to listen to everything each and every critic says carefully and weigh the data against the truth. I always come up with “No f*****g s**t, look at what happened to this former church member!” It is amazing that a planet going Clear for the first time in eternity has stumbled into problems doing so with none other than the orginal parties responsible for Clearing it. That is right, the Church of Scientology. If either of you wrote a book I WOULD BUY IT! Mike Rinder ESPECIALLY because of the Paulette Cooper thing. I like you both, a lot.

  77. Thank you Mike and Marty and Steve Hall for what you have done to help an ordinary folk like me to come out. It’s a landing softer than I expected. I was truly worried about the loyalty aspect.

    You are big beings, and my admiration goes to you, and to the other big beings strong enough to speak out.

    Ron gave us a torch, and now it’s up to us to carry on the light of freedom.

    I’m spurred to play a part too, because of your great efforts; what you guys have done is not lost on me. I was on staff for 5 years, and in the SO, and I know that life is meaningless without friends, that’s why I’m a Scientologist.

    Ron got one hell of a kicking on this planet, but hey, so have the rest of us – and we’re still here!!!!

    From the bottom of my thetan heart, thank you, guys.

    Love, Rich

  78. Yes you are right. But they did not take away my freedom (as an example only) and that must really bother the church seeing as how they already broadcast to people in writing no less that they did. They are trapped people in a game of taking away other people’s freedoms. Sometimes they are successful, but in the year 2011 it doesn’t look like they will be anymore, don’t you agree? 🙂

  79. Hey Marty,

    By my accounting you’re taking a big slice of the responsibility pie by your actions over the past several years as is Mike.

    I am unable to adequately express my gratitude for your actions and all of those who are like minded and all of those that are also working to Keep Scientology Working.

    I know this post is about Mike and I don’t mean to distract from that but I
    couldn’t help but notice a small bit of self depreciation and I wanted you to know that, I for one, couldn’t care a rats ass about your time in the S.O. as Mr. Fix it as I have expressed to you previously. I know you both know this but I’m going to state it anyway; What you and Mike are doing here and now with and in Real Scientology is what matters.

    Any actions while in the S.O. that are not a reflection of your true integrity
    are no different than any of the rest of us. Any time you would like to compare track histories for crummy things done give me a call, I’m sure I can cheer you up.

    If we all were judged by our pasts we would be a very sorry lot for sure.

    As for Mike. I am amazed at the loyalty to LRH and the Tech that your held within yourself to personaly endure what you did on a daily basis. IMHO it takes great courage to do what you are doing. Your acclimating to the pressures, battles and suppression may make these accolades seem excessive but the significance and importance of what you are doing is not lost on the rest of us.

    My hats off to you both. And to all of those that help, in all of it forms.

  80. Not to be a jerk, but I have a question for all the independents. I realize what Scientology has done to you all and my heart goes out to you, but do you take personal responsibility for getting in the group and staying in it for as long as you did? From what you all say the signs were very obvious. Like the old expression – fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me. And some of you were fooled for decades and you had blinders on. Why didn’t you run for the hills when the abuse was going on? I’m just an outsider following this issue, but always wondered about this point. Enlightenment would be appreciated. Like I said, my sympathies with you.

  81. George,

    OK. I will give it a shot.

    The difficulty is that there is much of inestimable value in Scientology. Unfortunately, it has been buried under an organization and altered by a lunatic who lied and tricked his way into power. There is always a hope that the good will overcome the bad, that the promised spiritual enlightenment and riches that the subject has to offer will still be achieved without the need for leaving the organized church — because those who are in the church believe/know several things:

    1. (False belief) There is NO Scientology outside the church — so you therefore give up your right to practice Scientology by leaving. And as many find so much value in it, they are reticent to walk away from it.

    2. (Correct knowledge) To varying degrees, by leaving one will lose friends, family, business associates — as your departure from the organization will be declared a Suppressive Act and those who remain in the church will be required to disconnect from you.

    So, the control mechanism is a carrot and a stick.

    This is a very oversimplified description. There are many complex factors that enter in. But hopefully, if you really are cruious, this may help give you some understanding. Others may have a different perspective. That’s mine.

  82. This is a great tribute to a great man, Mike Rinder.

    Mike is the kind of guy all of us want to be – smart, tough and strong – yet honest, kind and benevolent at the same time. Mike is a man who judges himself on the basis of taking responsibility and helping others.

    Sounds like another man I know. A guy named Marty Rathbun.

    Don’t want to get all sappy here and go overboard with the superlatives but suffice to say – you know I love both of you guys.


  83. Hi CG,

    Your use of the old expression “fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me” doesn’t necessarily apply here.

    A more appropriate statement would be “Brainwash me once, shame on you. Keep me brainwashed, shame on you.

  84. I don’t think so. It is all on the blog and I have nothing to add. You don’t understand and that is fine.

  85. Tony DePhillips

    Great explanation Mike.

  86. If there is still someone in doubt whether a certain Mr. Miscavige was / is violent against his staff, here is another witness. Vicky Aznaran (formerly a high ranking church executive) was one of the first who talked about the violence in a 1994 affidavit :


    14. Contrary to the claims in his February 4, 1994, declaration Miscavige has struck staff members when they do things he dislikes.

    I witnessed him hitting John Axel, a Sea Org member in the mouth in 1982. Miscavige had two other tall male staff members to back him up when he hit John Axel. This despite the fact that John Axel is a fairly small and very mild-mannered individual. Miscavige also does such things as set up photos of staff members who have fallen into disregard and use them as targets for pistol shooting.

    I witnessed him doing this with the Golden Era Musicians, of which Fernando Gamboa was one of his targets.

    source : http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/Fishman/Declaration/aznaran.txt

  87. Mike and Marty,
    I am moved beyond words at your humanity, intelligence, and courage. The devoted friendship that you now show the world despite the history between you is a vivid demonstration of the rapid healing of relationships that can occur. Your speaking out together and standing arm in arm has 10x the impact either could have individually. When I speak with anyone who is still in the church and remind them that Marty Rathbun and Mike Rinder are not only out but share the same story and tell the same truth of DM behind the scenes, it impacts without exception. You are both held with the highest of respect even by many who may not speak it.
    My appreciation to both of you for being there and communicating.
    Much love, Yvonne

  88. Beautifully said, Moneca.

  89. Curious George

    Thanks for the response and congrats for the tribute on here. I guess i’m naturally a more skeptical person, so if anyone asked me for a mandatory payment (not a donation) for spiritual enlightenment, i’d see that as a red flag and run the other way. And if I saw any kind of abuse – forget about it – i’d run immediately and never look back. But I suppose I haven’t walked in your shoes, so I can’t really say for sure.
    I can understand why Scientology would “work” for some people – running on a treadmill sends endorphins to your brain which makes you feel good. And going to auditing also makes sense because you feel better when you get stuff off your chest & have someone there to listen to you. But I guess my question is – can’t a gym membership and a therapist do the same thing? And it would be much more affordable and not cause so many headaches in your life?

    All this being said, I can’t believe some of the things you have gone through and I can’t believe it goes on in America in 2011. I really hope you all get the justice you deserve some day. Thanks again.

  90. I must admit that I just do not understand! I left the CofS in 1982. At that time physical violence against a Sea Org member was just about inconceivable. I saw things getting bad and left. I really do not understand how people put up with that crap and stayed! Was there no observation of outpoints?

  91. A parishioner’s belief in LRH tech for the first time usually overrides any possibility of suspicion on the part of those from whom one is learning this tech until the unthinkable happens – corrupt Clears and OT’s sabotaging other people’s case gains. The handling is the tech. Where is the tech at such a time? It is in the hands of corrupt Clears and OT’s seeking to sabotage one’s Bridge progress. It is the unthinkable. Thinkable to some though, you may meet here on this blog.

  92. Rinder survived so many beatings he should get some kind of Scientology Purple Heart award or something. How about creating a new IAS Status, like a “Purple Meritorius”? An honor status that no amount of cash can buy. Sorry Feshbachs. Sorry Craig Jensen. Forget that, screw the IAS – that’s nothing more than a Ponzi scheme anyways. How about an Independents Honor Status? Just something to think about.

  93. Very sorry you had to endure all those beatings, how demoralizing but as we can all see you are back and stronger than ever and helping to expose to the world the mechanisms of a monster. Continue to flourish and prosper!!

  94. As long as you know how to treat your woman right you’re a swell guy.

  95. I did run for the hills. I can’t claim I was one to “stick it out”. If I’m not happy or having a good time I shift rather instantly. I got into Scientology because I was done with suffering. I sure as hell wasn’t going to suffer because of it. That said, I wasn’t a very important person either and spent 99% of my time with public anyway. You could say I was a lounge lizard.

    As for the others, I can say for the people that were important and bigger beings than I was, they just were not that easy to unmock. It wasn’t a handicap they stayed, it was a plus point. They still are not unmocked. As you can see, they are bigger than life. Still being there and communicating, on their own terms.

  96. I am late to the party ~~ was out of town for the day.
    Magnificent post Marty to a Magnificent human being,
    I am proud to call Mike Rinder my friend and close confidante.
    Only the other day we were talking on the phone and I said Mike, “who would have thought many decades ago as you ran the Funchal, Madeira Office for “OTC” Operation Transport Corporation (undercover name for Apollo) ~~ who would have thought decades ago that we would be doing what we are doing now and that it would come to this…..?”.

    Mike Rinder is truly a remarkable one-of-a-kind person. In the Sea Org since he was a teenager, 2nd generation Scientologist he endured what few Sea Org members have come close to. Even living in isolation in the fields with a Garden hose as his only shower and Oliver twist slop for food.

    It is of note that media call him to interpret unfolding events and that is still a Church Spokesman ! Not a peep from Tommy Davis or an OSA PR.

    Mike has more friends than anyone can imagine. I would stand by Mike no matter what.

  97. George — Rather than spending time trying to figure it out by reading blogs, why dont you go to your local library or bookstore and get an LRH book (Original Thesis, DMSMH, Fundamentals of Thought) and read it. THere is far more to the subject than running on a treadmill…

  98. When I first talked to Marty, I told him that I knew something was wrong when I heard Mike Rinder had left the church. I told him you were always my favorite Int Exec. I’ve only talked to you a few times but, your sincere goodness and integrity touched me and I never forgot it.
    I can see why you and Marty are friends. You are two peas in a pod. And you both have some pretty great girls backing you up, too!
    I love you all. Laura Ann Wilson #12893 (my declare order #) 🙂

  99. P.S. And yes, I take personal responsibility. and enormous pride, for getting in the group and staying in it for as long as long as I have? Whatever position I have had in the game I have come out a winner. There have been some challenges, I found a way to grow in the face of them. I have and am still getting people up the bridge including myself and I don’t feel the need to apologize for myself, my interests, or for the people who put themselves forward in this game to make the world a better place.

    “The greater the obstacle , the more glory in overcoming it”. Moliere

  100. Then the next question arises that some people find hard to answer: “What? A corrupt Clear? A corrupt OT? But I thought they handled their cases and don’t do that?” Think again. Many members of the church INCLUDING the dear leader take great pride in putting their OT abilities or knowingness at the front lines of their justifications for their overts on people, as bizarre as that sounds. It would seem as though their non existent cases are handling them now aren’t they?

  101. +2… What Yvonne said. And add Amy and Jeff to the mix.

  102. Great personal strength and integrity. Immense generosity, warmth, appreciation and love. A great depth of knowledge-as well as profound (old soul variety) intelligence. Unwavering loyalty. Calm certainty and insouciance. Enthusiasm that manifests in an unbridled sense of humor–this guy belly laughs several times a day (at least based on my experience with him)….
    It is very, very rare to find a man who has ALL of these qualities.
    Mike, what makes you almost unheard of and the rarest of rare is that you have all these qualities along with true HUMILITY.

  103. Fellow Traveller

    I was at a loss too.
    Then this idea:
    Yeah though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I remain vigilent and optimistic because I know Mike Rinder has walked through a more difficult valley and emerged as the epitome of what one strives to become on this planet at this time.

    No he’s not my only inspiration, but he is unique. And perhaps he had help in various forms. But what an example!

    Thank you, sir.

    Bruce Pratt

  104. That is what is REALLY bothering David Miscavige.

  105. Fellow Traveller

    An amen bench just went into action!

  106. We didn’t get unmocked. In fact, we reinvented ourselves into new and improved species.

  107. Gotta say that looking at that picture brings back a LOT of memories. Wasn’t that a fucking day!

  108. Fellow Traveller

    And I thought I got torched. Sheeh. What a point of view shift.

  109. Yes Jason, it sure was. It was the start of something that will last forever!

  110. Rinder Loyalist

    Michael J Rinder —
    Thank you sir, for
    a) staying true to who you really are
    b) being here
    c) communicating

  111. Sinar, I wanted to add to Marty’s description of what would happen and the comm cycle between DM, Mike and Shelly. Anyone who has ever worked with or encountered DM has seen a similar scene play out.

    Mike gives a senseable, reasonable, well thought out answer to DM’s question. However that is not the correct answer in DM’s warped mind. He then points out to Shelly what a piece of shit you are for making a senseable answer and how you are suppressing him and making his job harder.

    Instead, in DM’s mind he has an off policy, crazy, imagined answer and in this case borderline illegal answer that he is expecting.

    Im sure many people found it almost impossible to answer a DM question because you didn’t know what his response was going to be. It was even worse back in the day when he wore mirrored sunglasses. You couldn’t see his eyes so couldn’t read his reaction. Was he kidding? Was he serious?

    That is because he is plain and simple a crazy person and his mind is so full of held down 7’s that it can’t compute straight.

    It’s also a mechanism he uses to control people around him.


  112. Yeah! Amazing to think how far we’ve come and yet the journey’s only just started….

  113. Wow Jason. This is way over the top man… its starting to sound like a fucking funeral!!!

  114. While David slid off the bridge and into a Caligula valence. Dramatizing the keystone of Narcissism, the inability to have empathy for others.

  115. One final thought, when I heard Mike Rinder blew in 2007, from a top FSM of all people blew, I took this as a real OUTPOINT from the Data Series.

    I had long been gone from the C of M and was “dissafected”. Again, when I heard this news and I distinctly have D/Led this moment (Dated and Located ), I say this because that was the precise moment I knew something was seriously wrong with the Corp Scn, and I needed to pay the F attention to the scene, and then I began to get my ass on alert and start reading the internet.

    Then it went to SP Times, and so on. This is why I now know what has been going on Dave’s world is a Suppresive act. Then it folllowed onto Marty.

    Thank you both.

  116. I have never understood why people just left and didn’t confront and attack the crap directly if they were aware of it. Outpoint- omitted courage or balls, if you will. This whole scene is loaded with outpoints; why point fingers just because someone-else’s outpoints doesn’t align with yours. And they are wholeheartedly attacking it now. As far as I am concerned, we all f’ed up.

  117. The two bravest men were honest, trusting, aware of the rights of others, group goal orientated and duty motivated.

    The insane bully was sneaky, dishonest, mainpulative, 1.1, self motivated, criminal , liar, misleading, self important, narcissistic, psychopath.

    Does that answer your question? While the others were clearing the planet the insane bully was merging corporations and counting coins . He was never there on the same terms as everyone else, it was all pretense. Since the others were being sincere and honest they thought everyone else was too.

    But the two parties had separate goals and DM was the only one to know.

    The two brave men were not plotting overthrow, capital and mutiny. That is why they are not sitting on top. And that is exactly why David Miscavige is sitting on top. He has zero regard of the rights of others. Another keystone of Narcissistic Personality Disorder.

  118. Mike & Marty, You both have been the most amazing friends and big brothers to us for the past 2 years. We are lucky to have you both in our lives. Thank you!
    Much Love,

  119. I’ve enjoyed reading your reaction to Tony Ortega’s columns on Mike and Jason as well as all the comments here on the blog. Both of Tony’s articles are from the outsider’s perspective but your reactions fill in a lot of important detail. Your recounting of DM’s abuse of Mike is incredibly vivid and gives us a window into the insanity few of us have had a chance to witness. I can’t wait to read your book.

    As I started to videotaped Scientology related events, I never considered the Scientologists I encountered to be the enemy. I always felt I was trying to help them no matter what they thought of me and no matter how they bullbaited me. With Mike, I may have had a harder time coming to that viewpoint. But even as I was running across him in Clearwater I felt strongly that the truth would come out and whatever was being thrown at us would be uncovered and exposed. Sadly for Bob Minton the timetable wasn’t speedy enough. Yet it was through Bob’s ordeal that a bond between Bob and Mike was formed that helped me to bridge my own divide with Independents.

    I don’t know how Mike feels about the quote that I gave Tony. It could seem much harsher in print than I intended, but I think this black and white viewpoint from both sides is very counter productive. I was happy to see Anonymous helping Marty in Germany. I was thrilled to see Marty and Ursula working together. Graham Berry wrote a terrific post in support of Marty after they met. But there are still some major upsets. As Tony pointed out, there are former members who want to know more about how corporate Scientology went after them over the years. Even though these people are on the attack, they deserve to have some answers. The more details that can be exposed, the better we can all be. I’d rather see people working side by side than sniping at each other. I’d prefer to think none of these parties are “the enemy.”

    I was with some Independents this past weekend who were asking, “Why should Marty or Mike answer their questions when all they do is attack?” Well, sometimes helping the people who are attacking you is just the right thing to do. And in the end, we all win.

  120. DM: Living testament of man’s inhumanity to man.
    Jim: Living testament to man’s potential for integrity, honor and courage to make things right.
    Me: Crying.


  121. I did confront and attack. I was escorted out the front door. But the truth is none of us are Marty or Mike and we didn’t have to walk in those shoes.
    Why? How? Only the people that walked in those shoes can know. No matter what is said about it, if you didn’t walk in those shoes you will only hear and dream about what it must have been like if you are that curious. The only way to KNOW is to go walk in those shoes yourself. The whole scene is loaded with outpoints, so is Wal Mart, so is Macy’s, so is the Board of Education, so is the Congress, so is the economy etc etc.
    The point is to be able to see the outpoints and turn them into plus points.
    And Marty and Mike and the rest of the auditors and Scientologists here are plus points in this game.

  122. After reading this post, and being so moved by the genuine care and love that is here, I’ve been thinking all day of how I could best respond…I still am at a loss for some words so will try my best.
    Mike and Marty, having lived thru both sides of this coin, demonstrate for me exactly what Scientology is truly all about.
    One of my favorite articles by LRH is “What is Greatness”, and these men not only refer to it from time to time…they live it.
    It does not get better that that. Thank you both for all that you do.
    I have the utmost respect and admiration for you.

  123. Mike, You are a truly honorable gentleman. The following I feel describes your attitude toward life. You, as well as Marty, and all the many who post here, demonstrate by your actions that these statements are absolutely valid in any understanding of you and who you are. Thank you for everything you have done and are doing. There are so many of us indebted to the likes of you. I look foward to the honor of shaking your hand in some future date.

  124. “I sense another big hitter from the current management team is soon going to join our ranks.”

    The Church is a womb. When the womb gets too crowded or stops being a safe place or a place of nourishment, people crawl out. That is called dissemination.

    Yes, I too sense a new birth in the very near future.

  125. Jim,
    I hope you don’t mind if I show up there with you.

  126. This is the only poem I have memorized, and is one of my favorite poems. It is the ultimate “you can’t kill a thetan.”

  127. Mike – You are a great man. I really admire the way you walked away, and what you have done since.

  128. By the way, what volunteer gets excommunicated because they don’t want to volunteer anymore? What volunteer gets bills when they leave calling them “Freeloader”. How can a volunteer be a Freeloader? How can you punish someone who does not want to volunteer anymore? Did anyone here every get thanked for all of their volunteer work?

  129. I don’t think so, because David Miscavige does not regard the rights of others.

  130. If you haven’t been in that same boat yourself, it is very hard indeed to imagine. It is very easy to view it from an after thought and wonder how it could be. But when you’re living it, it is quite different. From the very beginning (if you entered the SO post DM) you are indoctrinated to believe that DM is a super being that is ALWAYS right and you are slowly brainwashed to really believe this is so. You never question, and if you do, you soon stop as your “bad thoughts are causing you to much trouble personally to spend time on.

    Only after an extreme impaction, such as the physical abuse or mental pressure exerted do you realize that something is wrong. At first you don’t even attribute it to DM, but you just want out as you can’t stand what is happening to you. Then little by little it starts to sink in, especially as you read others accounts of similar experiences. Only then do you fully realize how brainwashed you had become.

    Once that realization has hit you, there is a huge blowdown because you finally see things for what they are, but it took quite a bit of time and extreme measures to get there. This is probably unreal for an outsider, but very real for someone who has lived it. This also illustrates the mindset of the majority who are still on the inside, and why it is so hard to disseminate the “obvious”. You are programmed to really believe that there can’t be anything wrong with DM’s actions and no matter how wrong it feels you constantly try to find a way to justify it. Only when it is so outrageously dangerous or wrong to you personally do people act, but usually in the form of “blowing” or in the rare cases, routing out, because they can’t stand it personally.

    Even so, I don’t think I fully answered your question, but it is nevertheless somewhat of the actual seen and unless you lived it, it is almost inconceivable how it could be.

  131. The Antithesis of David Miscavige. That’s high praise, indeed.

    Marty, I really appreciate the inside perspective on what Mike lived through.

    I’ll respond to this post in an Aussie fashion. Mike, you’re alright.

  132. Mark is 100% accurate in his description of DM’s op basis. In this way, he keeps everyone around him off balance. No one has a stable position from which to communicate or to observe. One is always a little bit off kilter. I recall a time when I was in CW with him in 1996. Diana Hubbard was also there on some business and we were in CMO CW listening to DM joke about what a bunch of idiots the Int Management people were. We were laughing at his jokes (neither Diana nor I were part of management at the time) when suddenly he exploded and stormed out of the room mad at us for what reason we never knew but I guess it was for laughing at the fools in management. That is DM’s op basis and how he stays in power. In his little fiefdom he continues to get away with it. But that fiefdom is shrinking by the day. Before long the only people he will be able to pull that on are Lou and TC, if even them.

  133. Before my gradual understanding of what the Indies were about and their take on LRH’s version of the Tech, I initially was unsure of Mr Rinder.
    Marty always seemed to be more outcoming and open, and with the OSA connection my trust levels were low/
    My view has changed dramatically from those early days and the phrase “Still waters run deep” comes to mind (positive version!)
    (“still water runs deep”has positive meaning, it is used to express someone who says very little often is very knowledgeable and has profound thought)

  134. Martin Padfield

    Laura, you’re so lucky to HAVE a Declare Order! I can’t prise mine out of OSA UK for love nor money.

  135. Martin Padfield

    That’s funny!

  136. Why is Rinder dating a woman alnost 30 years younger than himself?

  137. I love this post! It reminded me how many awesome, wonderful people there are out here in the Indie field! Navigating the waters out here can be challenging at times, esp if you were as clueless as me as to what was going on. There are as many viewpoints as there are people. In addition since people out here aren’t restrained, you get to hear a lot! 🙂

    This post has been a bit of a rehab for me. It reminds me how good people are where ever they are in the transition. What’s great is I can love my friends whether they decide to stay with Scn or not. There is a bond there that will never be broken. A friend is a friend, plain and simple. 🙂

  138. We all have freedom of choice, thus can choose in the name of a game to mock up whatever we please. This includes not know, GPM’S and case. Thetans are pretty capable, as witnessed by abilities gained through processing.

    Plus the tech of LRH and the experience thereof go so far beyond a treadmill & psych counselling, there is no comparison, IMHO.

  139. George M. White

    The signs of violence from Miscavige were obvious to me in 1989 when I left after having completed OTVIII on the Freewinds. I met Mr. Miscavige on the ship briefly. After returning home to Miami, I got a phone call. It was the Registrar from the Freewinds calling from a dock in Ft. Lauderdale asking for refuge – a place to stay and nutiment. She briefy described the “bloodbath” which was perpetrated by Mr. Miscavige and that she escaped with the help of friends who had a boat.
    I agreed to meet with her but she never showed up at the designated location and never called again.
    A few days later, I went to the Miami org which was under siege by a mission from Int management. Leaving the “org”, I was physically restrained by a SO member and told to “get on course”. Well, that was enough for me.
    I have not practiced the religion since those events.
    By the way, had the independent movement been alive, I would have joined it.
    I don’t know what I would have done on the Freewinds if Miscavige threw a punch at me, but I think he has never hit a “public” only SO members.
    Much loving-kindness,

  140. Right, at the time they were good at their jobs and now they’re stil good at it. The only difference is the targets but the intention of helping mankind, best as possible, didn’t change, awareness did.

  141. Mark, I have a question for the Independents you mention in your post. ” How can telling the truth be considered an attack? “. Since open communication is the universal solvent for all situations, one has to listen with open ears to what is being said in the moment, not holding on to actions or words from the past. When one can can do this, one can truly understand for themselves past actions. Therefore not be a slave to negative emotion connected to old incidents.

  142. Firebreathing Frog

    I have been wandering for a while why Mr. Rathbun, Mr. Rinder and others are so successful doing what they do now, while David Miscavige fail and fail and fail, with everything he gets his hand on.

    Why is Mr Rathbun, after being one of the top exec in Scientology, and, according to Miscavige himself, enjoy the most upstats facility: the RTC quarters, Golf course, swimming pool, etc. etc (source: the video done on Marty by the CO$ and released on Freedommag.org few months ago).

    Why is it that after leaving everything behind, his entire life, friend, family and wife, finding himself living in a shed, and yet being so successful.

    I was listening to an LRH lecture yesterday, that explained a lot to me and I wanted to share.

    Here is Ron:

    “The degree to which a person has to have is the degree to which he will survive.

    “If he’s got to have everything all packaged up solid, he’s stopped and he’s dead, because although possession is an end goal, when attained, it ends the cycle of action.

    “There is never a great adventurer who did not end his career upon having discovered the sacred treasure of Peru. Bolitho, good old Bolitho, with his TWELVE AGAINST THE GODS – it’s a wonderful thing to read – gorgeous! And the introduction of TWELVE AGAINST THE GODS is one of the best pieces of work I know of, even related to a lot of things, and particularly to this subject.

    “You know, we can add this little line to it: we… if a fellow, if a fellow would act and act and act and then finally with his terrific ambition attain the treasure of Peru, and then he would turn around and look at all the people who had impeded him in getting it and he would simply take the bars of gold and the gems and make those people have them, he’s all set.

    “And if he would walk away from his greatest triumph – and if a man ever could do this – walk away from his greatest triumph with his hands empty and his pocket empty and with maybe just the shirt on his back, he would live to triumph again and again and again and again. If he could do that.

    “You know, we live in the midst of a tremendous amount of propaganda – continuous MEST universe propaganda on which the vector is 180 degrees twisted, so that we are led to believe that so-and-so is the case. And then we take that on faith, and we don’t go out and
    look. We don’t see what is the end product, for instance, of finding the treasures of Peru.

    “You’re told very carefully:

    “Now look: if you’re a success, you get an awful lot of stuff. And you can have all these things. And you can have these big beautiful homes and you can have all this way, and you can have all that way, and you can be very happy then.”

    “And actually you can persist in that… you can persist in that delusion, because it’s a completely backwards modus operandi and it doesn’t fit and it won’t work out that way at all. You could persist in that to kid yourself in order to keep yourself in action. But the second you cease to know it’s a pretense, you get caught in the trap of it.

    “You actually have to be in a position like this sometime to have a superfluity of MEST to find out what it does to you. It’s just fabulous what a lot of MEST can do to you.

    “It makes an awful “MEST” out of you.

    L. Ron Hubbard. Cycles of Action, PDC Lecture 16, 5 December 1952.

    Do you think Miscavige will take Ron advice?

    May be he will give all the gold to his enemies, give the buildings of all the ideal orgs to charity, together with his Swiss bank account, his cars, his motorbike, his Hollywood properties, his share in the real estate company that keep all properties of Scientology (including the nebulous trust fund owning all the ideal orgs buildings)

    May be he will leave everything behind, going out with just a shirt (even if a Hermes shirt – from now he will buy at Wallmart).

    Do you think he would be as successful as Marty or Mike then?

    GO DM – You can be free!

  143. Raul,
    Good try on the explanation. I agree with you, it’s tough to understand if you haven’t had to personally confront the whole experience. Even then, it really takes a persistence to follow through and truly as-is it. To emerge whole, actually closer to whole than before since facing up to this ‘thing’ is facing up to that which was avoided so many times in the past.

    It is a baptism of fire. A barrier that each individual must front up to and get through.

    It is evil. And to conquer evil, well, that takes some work. As each being emerges from the contest, a little less evil exists.

    Glad to see you on this side of the contest Raul 🙂

  144. Mark,
    We’ve not met but I have read your comment on Tony Ortega’s site re Mike, and now this one posted here and my personal view is that you are sincere. I agree that ‘black and white’ are a fallacy. There being so much good in the worst of us and so much uck in the best of us, that perhaps all of us can extend more tolerance to the each of us.

    I have experienced the best and the worst of human kind. I’ve been the best and the worst at various times.

    What I got out of Scientology’s Factors, Axioms, Logics, Pre-Logiocs, has enabled me personally to rise above the fray that life can be, and sense a brotherhood with fellow beings I’ve never sensed before, or at least never been so CERTAIN existed and could be tapped and lived before.

    It’s a long way to go before the fat lady sings. In the meanwhile, I’m enjoying the opera and nod my head to you, a fellow in this marvelous story.

  145. martyrathbun09

    First, thanks for further proof that Miscavige bots would tell a lie even if the truth served them better. Its more like twenty years. Second, why did Ron do the same thing? Third, also thanks or confirming Miscavige bots are hard at work to attain Corporate Ot VIII – be just like Dave, in this case utterly fixated on second dynamic eval, inval and perversion. Btw, haven’t seen you since Carwash, wassup man?

  146. Because he can.

    You, on the other hand, cannot.


  147. Ruth,

    Not only is the answer on this blog, its right on this posting. Mike and Marty didn’t work for DM. They never worked for DM. They worked for LRH, for Scientology, to protect Scientology, for the good of the planet, call it what you will, but they never worked for DM. He was the annoying distraction to the real work they did. That he abused them while they worked is testament to how tough these two truly are. They are immense. When he finally made it impossible for them to do their work, they left. And if DM made it impossible for Mike and Marty to do their work then if follows that Scientology was in deep deep trouble at that point and has slipped down a very steep slope ever since.

    Inside Scientology, to fight DM you would have to use his type of dirty tactics, in his arena. You would have to fight his fire with fire. That Mike and Marty chose not to stoop that low is a mark of their character.

    As I said, they are immense.

  148. 22 years to be exact. 🙂
    And yes, LRH and Mary Sue were exactly 22 years apart too. Hmmmm…….. I guess this is a crime of magnitude. See POB doesn’t like LRH either.

  149. Why do they keep bringing this up? DM was at his father’s wedding to Becky Miscavige (with a significantly bigger gap than Mike and Christie). Tad bit of jealousy perhaps? For a group that believes in thetans and no age, this seems like a weird pursuit. No one had a problem when it was DM’s dad or Gabrielle Allen when she was an exec and her half age husband, Gil. Or Herb and Becky Williams. And on and on. Stop being an idiot Allender.

    Oh! And TC and Katie Holmes anyone??? DM was the best man! F-ing hypocrites.

  150. LOLOLOL. That’s hysterical! He’s not dead yet! 🙂

  151. Allander wrote “Why is Rinder dating a woman almost 30 years younger than himself?

    Um…because he CAN . just an observation but he is pretty hot …and the accent does not hurt either . John ~ are you the fat guy with the big gut and the camera strapped to his head – or the other fat guy with the gut smoking a cig wandering around someones front yard in Texas getting sprayed with a hose ? ( jealous much ? )

  152. John:

    This is what you comment about? Wow.

    Funny how Jim Lynch is fixated on the same thing. Must be coming from the 2D Zen master himself, another one of his “I know how to handle an SP — cave them in by pushing their buttons.” Oddly, it isnt a button for me, but it must be for POB and you and Bozo the Clown.

    It must REALLY drive you guys crazy thinking about LRH marrying MarySue eh? And over the top insanely veing poppingly lunatic to even think about Ron Miscavige Snr married to Becky, at least 25 years younger than him…. You must be all absolutely steaming.

    And oh my, let’s not even think about Marty and Mosey, OMFG, interracial marriage?? Because if there is one thing that Dave hates more than a good 2D, its non-caucasians. No, I stand corrected, at the bottom of his list is “homos.” Wait, I think below that comes anyone who disagrees with him…

    So, there you go John. You can now tick off another thing in the “RCS OT VIII qualifications checklist”:
    1. Harass women in parking lots — check
    2. Make a fool of yourself as a Squirrelbuster — check
    3. Wear silly camera on your head and stupid T-shirt — check
    4. Demonstrate to the world you are a bigot — check
    5. Lick POB’s nutsack — Check.

    You are ready to roll. Congratulations.

  153. Time for a little car wash music, anyone? At the car wash, tra, la, la la la ,,,,,, hey Allender, comments from the cheap seats, are always cheap shot comments.

  154. Thanks Jim,

    I guess one other aspect to this which is also hard to imagine unless you have lived it, is the fact that most people who made it to Int level are fairly intelligent, aware individuals. Most, if not all, definitely have doubts and their own disagreements, but they are not openly voiced, because they know if they do the personal ramifications are too high.

    Most staff members have some or much reality of the greatness of the tech itself. Most have seen it in application on themselves and others, and most staff members have a genuine drive to do their part to get this technology out to mankind.

    Since about 1996, and way escalated in 1999 and taken to ridiculous levels between 2003 – 2007, DM has internally ensured every other management and tech terminal of any prior importance is pictured as an incompetent idiot, if not an outright SP. Plenty of internal propaganda and briefings “substantiate” this. DM portrays himself as the ONLY one who is doing anything constructive about it, and this is the general view of most staff (and now the public and OT Ambassadors.)

    If they then hear about some abuse or see it personally they shrug it off as, well DM was pissy because there is so much incompetent SP’s around and he is so hard-working it isn’t easy to keep ones temperament – or some other justification. You automatically make his actions right.

    If you actually out-right disagree with what he does, well you still think twice before you act because if you get in the bad you are either cut off from Scientology for all eternity (not true, but what you are made to believe as you have no access to outside information) and/or you will be cut off from family and friends because you will most likely get declared.

    Most staff members at Int have never personally witnessed the abuse Marty, Mike, Amy and others are talking about. This happened to the people in the Hole, as well as those who attended his routine briefings and meetings, which was mainly some select Gold production crew and a few management terminals such as Mike Rinder. Most likely less than 100 staff at Int ever witnessed something themselves out of 700. The other 600 have no clue that DM even beat someone as it is not talked about and if you start a “rumor” that so and so was beaten by DM you get investigated and you are thoroughly silenced.

    However, those staff members who appeared on TV (including Tommy Davis) who defended DM’s actions after the 2009 Truth Rundown articles, have personally witnessed COB beat people – all of them – and they were willing to outright lie on TV to protect their leader. This will give you an idea of what extent these guys who are still on the inside are willing to lower themselves to in order to stick up for COB. It doesn’t matter if they do it out of pure fear, stupidity or blind ignorance (mostly fear), the fact is they do it no matter what is told to them, no matter the truth laid out in front of them.

    Luckily, having blogs like this one acts as a repair process because you realize you were not alone and you realize that the opinions and views of DM and the current church is just like yours, despite the large variety of people on this blog.

    But how and why this or that is really not important. What is important is that there is a technology called Scientology which is workable when applied like LRH said to do. There are many who knows this to be true for them. That technology shouldn’t be horded or mis-abused and certainly not reversed like DM is doing, but should be made available and applied to all who wants it. All the while doing whatever necessary actions to take out the real SP who is suppressing all Scientologists and the technology and the name L. Ron Hubbard.

    One doesn’t even need to worry about what “bad PR” could be created by exposing DM and the church publicly. I know of no organization with a worse public PR opinion than the Church of Scientology – so go ahead and attack! Anything published with pure truth will handle more than you can imagine and factually, actions such as those Marty took in Germany, will only increase the interest in Scientology as a technology, while also handling long destroyed relations and PR on the government of Germany (by DM).

    So, there is nothing to lose and everything to win!

  155. John Allenduh,
    I get how this is a mystery to you. There are certain perks to being a real man that have escaped you, and I get that too.

    I get that it’s a mystique. But look at it another way, that sack banging on your chin isn’t Dave’s enema bag. It’s a ‘teabag’ and possibly your love for Dave has blinded you, wrapped up like a douche, another runner for Mr. Right.

  156. I think we should always answer a potential independents question! this is my stab at an answer for him!
    1. Because she is beautiful
    2. Because she is smart
    3. Because she is compassionate
    4. Because she has a great ability to see the truth
    5. Because they like each other
    6. Because they have common goals and purposes
    7. Because they no longer need permission from someone else to do something on the 2D
    How’s that?

    John, do you have a girlfriend? What do she really think about your antics?

  157. what a tosser, although find it ironic that Marty is gracious enough to allow the guy who has been stalking him to have a voice…

  158. Christie,

    22 years! Dang! My wife is only 20 year younger. This sucks. I’m trading her in on a younger model.

  159. John has five girlfriends, all at the end of his palm. But, because they’re all exactly his age, he’s developed a fondness for lovers on the side (actually, wrong preposition, wrong anatomical feature.), mostly made of vinyl and silicon. The finest vinyls. The finest silicons. And none older than six months because he loves them so much, they wear out quickly.

  160. Great summation, Raul – spot on in many ways!

  161. GREAT point! The staff are not supposed to be working for DM, they are working for L.R.H.. DM has abused, mistreated, fired, and unmocked L.R.H.’s staff as if they were his own. It is HIM that is the outpoint. Not L.R.H.’s staff and friends. The staff are not HIS staff, they are L.R.H.’s staff. He thinks they are all supposed to be working for him and they are HIS.

  162. Thanks Randy, this is one reality that is not easy to convey in a few words resulting in full conceptional understanding 🙂

  163. Curious George

    Thanks, moneca. So is the whole “war on psychs” in the church legitimate or is it just because the “psychs” are competition for the church? Kinda like Coke hating on Pepsi? Their hate for the “psychs” makes sense from purely a capitalist point of view. I agree that people are overmedicated in society, but I don’t see evil in people going to see a therapist for counseling.

  164. Beautiful heartfelt post, Marty. ❤

  165. Pingback: Mike Rinder: The Antithesis of David Miscavige (via Moving On Up a Little Higher) « My LRH

  166. + 1 zillion.
    What business of it is yours anyway, John? Fixated much? 😀

  167. Curious George

    So you posed the challenge…
    “do you take personal responsibility for getting in the group and staying in it for as long as you did? From what you all say the signs were very obvious……And some of you were fooled for decades and you had blinders on. Why didn’t you run for the hills when the abuse was going on? ”

    Perhaps have a look at this., as a possible, somewhat parallel type of situation…

    Why does a woman, or a man, or the children even, stay in an abusive relationship or situation? (Look beyond the easy accusations of “stupidity”, or ignorance, or inherent weakness or some such. And remember, hindsight isn’t available when you are actually IN the situation.)

    I invite you to check out some of these very real possibilities, or combinations of them.

    Fear of retribution from the suppressor.
    Feeling that there is no where else to go.
    Knowing that if you leave you may well lose all of your belongings and many of your friends.
    Belief that you are the “cause” of the abuse somehow, or that “you deserve it” for some reason.
    Having become so “cowed” by the suppression that you feel that you do not have the power to fight it any longer, so you go into apathy and resign yourself to the situation.
    Simply aberrations that you are the effect of.

    Or on a more up-tone note….

    Duty to the family,
    Hope that it may be temporary and get handled.
    Memories of the loving or meaningful situations prior to, or interspersed with the suppression.
    Courage in one’s own ability to “make it go right” and resolve the situation.
    Honoring your vow to stay, in spite of all, “till death do us part”.
    Courage to stay, in order to maintain, or create, what sanity you can in the situation despite personal danger.
    Because one believes that if they can find a way to confront and handle this situation they will emerge stronger.
    Because, in spite of all the “outnesses”, they believe that what they are doing within the situation is actually helping some of their Dynamics.

    And perhaps many others.

    So … revisit the information that you have on the “church” and the situations described on this blog and others, and see if this example helps answer any of your questions?

    Eric S

  168. The whole “Freeloader” policy pissed me off from the first time I heard about it. I had two parents get hit with these when they left the SO, and it took them years to “pay it back.” They were saddled with this, despite the products they got as staff members, and the good they did while on staff.

    They are a key reason I never joined and usually ran away screaming from any recruiter who came by. Some of the worst days of my life were trying to reason with an SO recruiter. Being a young man, out of debt, with no LSD, and single, I was a prime target for recruiters when I was doing the BC. No cussing way. No cussing interest. I actually had a recruiter try to run lowers on me because I would not join the SO.

    When I was on staff as NSO at Flag there was not a day that went by that I was extremely grateful I was not SO. To me, to join the SO would have meant giving up my freedom for the cause. I was not willing to do that.

  169. lookingin

    Yes, it is perhaps somewhat true that “we all f’ed up” to some degree or another, but the true measure of a being is not that he “f’ed up” but how he goes about handling those “f’ups”. It takes a big being to step up, take responsibility for, and then go on to move those areas on up a little higher.

    It takes the likes of Marty Rathbun and Mike Rinder.

    Eric S

  170. Jethro

    I personally consider Mike Rinder and Marty Rathbun to both be worthy of the title of “Kha-Khan” for their contributions to the future of the philosophy and the technologies that are Scientology.

    Big beings can cause big effects, and inevitably some of them may turn out to be mistakes, but I consider they have each earned their 10 “get out of jail free” cards, should they ever need to play them.

    I personally will honor their status as “Kha-Khan” should I ever be called upon to judge them.

    Eric S

  171. Curious George

    Hi Eric,

    Everything you say makes a lot of sense. I’ve been following the topic of the independents for a few years and I may write a paper about it for grad school at some point. The abuses from the church seem obvious and the way they’ve handled the accusations certainly doesn’t help them. One thing i’ve noticed is a lot of talent and energy coming from the independents. Whether you’re spokespeople, activists, bloggers, actors, etc. you could all have very successful careers outside the fight with Scientology – by applying your skills in other realms. Part of me admires that you continue the fight, but the other part of me wonders why you don’t cut your losses and move on and prosper and succeed beyond Scientology – independent or otherwise. I believe you will say that you believe in the tech, which is why you continue the fight to reform. And again I admire that. But Eric, to use your analogy of the battered wife, isn’t the independent movement kind of like the abused wife who finally left her husband but is still hanging on to hope that she could repair the relationship? Wouldn’t she be better off if she cut off the relationship entirely, moved away, and started a completely new life? In other words, is DM really the problem or is there a deeper problem within the DNA of Scientology that’s the problem? I think this is a question which is “too soon” for many of you to answer because you still have an emotional tie to the tech, but I’m curious where the independent movement will be 10 years from now. It’s something I look forward to continuing to follow. Thanks again for everyone’s candid feedback.

  172. Grasshopper

    Yes, the whole “freeloader” fiasco.

    Another case where I believe the intention of the policy has been overridden by the WORDS, their literalness or their misunderstanding, or other-intentionednesses.
    Obviously one would not want someone signing a contract simply in order to get free service without exchange. But when it is the other way around, where the organization is getting all the benefits and the staff member little or nothing, who “owes” the “freeloader debt” then?
    Who is it that is “out exchange?’
    If “ethics” or “justice” are viable concepts, then the answer becomes quite clear.

    Eric S

  173. Mike or Marty,

    Do you think that DM is still hitting people at gold base?

    If so, who do you think he is venting his frustrations on now?

  174. George,

    I follow my own belief on this, and do take personal responsibility for my time on staff, what I did and the things I was blind to. I hope and encourage others to do the same.

    I see it that I am responsible for my life, what I did, what I did to you and what I caused you to do. That doesn’t mean you are not responsible for the same things in your life, because you are.

    Was I blind? Of course I was to a degree, but I stuck it out for a long time because what I signed up for is so much bigger than the temporary crazyness you see playing out today. People will endure amazing amounts of hardship to follow their own purpose and are often very reluctant to give up. Almost everyone here went through that.

    The time came when I did leave. It wasn’t dramatic, I just faded away with my failed purposes. I don’t regret my time on staff or even look back on it with ill-will, because of this:

    right now today I am in a good place; I had to go through that time to get to this place. In the end it was worth it.


  175. The real question is this:

    Is Mike Rinder’s love life any of Allander’s business?

  176. I’ll answer your question John, if you would answer this little question for me first:

    How is it any of your business?

  177. I guess I forgot to mention “ingrate”!

  178. George,

    That’s another very complex question, and we could debate the answer for days.

    I reckon it’s safe to assume that DM is creating an enemy because he needs something to oppose him – that’s his style, he’s forever fighting some bunch of “bad guys”. So *his* stance against psychiatry is bunkum, and just occludes the real issue.

    As to the real issue, psychiatry was abusive in the 50s and 60s and something needed to be done about it. Just like DM’s church was (and still is) abusive in the 90s and 2000s and something needs to be done about it too.

    So there are two layers at least to the question; DMs current bs, and whatever the actual truth happens to be right now. I have no idea what that actual truth is, but I do know that DMs lies, smoke and mirrors have to be removed from the scene first.

  179. “5. Lick POB’s nutsack — Check.” 🙂

    But wait a minute Mike,……doesn’t POB first actually have to have a sack of nuts for Allender to lick them?

  180. Hi Alan,

    Glad to hear everything is going well for you now. Obviously, the church is very wrong and maybe criminal for their actions, but at a certain point I agree that everyone needs to take personal responsibility. If I keep going back to car dealer who’s selling me lemons, at a certain point, I need to ask myself why I keep going back to him. Sounds like the church sold a lot of lemons to many of you. The questions is what you do with that. Sounds like Alan made himself some lemonade. Glad it worked out for you at the end.
    Best wishes, Alan.

  181. Curious George

    Thanks for your response. It sounds like you are actually looking at the situation as you understand it, and I appreciate your input.

    Yes, you do have a point about the “battered wife simply leaving and starting a new life. That is perhaps where my analogy or example falls short of the situation with the “church” and David Miscavige.

    It is true, we could simply walk away and not look back. Some already have. But there is another dimension to this whole thing, and I will leave my concept of the value of the philosophy and the technology out of it if I can.

    To address my analogy again. In this case, the “abusive husband” is not acting on his own, but as part of a gang. This gang is holding more that just you and your family at ransom. They are doing the same to others. They are destroying lives. They are causing harm to a larger portion of the Dynamics. Personally I am not willing to stand by and allow that to happen to beings of good will, if there is something that I can do about it. It is part of my concept of being responsible for the creation of my life and assisting the other beings involved in my life, when I can.

    I cannot simply “walk away”. It DOES have something to do with my life. I have to either deal with it or be willing to live with my failure to do so, and how that affects my life and our futures.

    I am not doing this out of vindictiveness, or revenge for real or imagined harm to myself or others. I am doing this because I care.

    Where will the Independent movement be 10 years from now? I really could not say. But I am hoping that the philosophy and the technologies developed by L.Ron Hubbard will not have been lost, and that those who wish to avail themselves of it will be free to do so.

    Eric S

  182. Eric,

    You is good people. I love your ability to reason. Love it. And the ethics that lie behind how you reason. It’s one thing to be skilled with logic, and quite another to base that logic on principles which improve the human condition.

  183. George,

    Let me weigh in from an ancient view. I left Scientology in ’82, and after reading all the biographies that painted Hubbard with obscene brush strokes, and after the internet began to reveal more and more of the crimes (whether technically or morally despicable) of the GO and OSA, I came to hate Scientology and Hubbard with a passion. A passion with capital letters. I wouldn’t even watch a show if a Scientology actor was prominent.

    Once, the tech and Hubbard and Scientology and its goals were important to me, and fairly suddenly they were important only as something to expunge, like someone throwing up on your dining room table.

    Truth is important to me. So, I set off on my own quest, vowing never to accept what another says just because they have some position of authority. I became an utterly independent thinker, able to cast out or accept anything I chose.

    Which, oddly enough, brought me back to Hubbard’s findings. I don’t doubt the downside of Hubbard. Even back in the fifties, and certainly after the mid sixties. In my opinion, he could be a horrible person, capable of the most heinous acts against others. But, then again, so could I. And some of my good friends are scum bags, not in prison only by luck.

    If the bad in a relationship would always precipitate leaving, none of us would stay married. None of us could remain friends with one another. On some level, all of us are dipshits. And the more horsepower a person has, the greater the capacity for being a dipshit. Why? Not because a greater proportion is lent to dipshittiness, but because there is just more resources available to feed it.

    We all establish what is important in life. I think Hubbard really was on a mission to Clear the planet. And it was an admirable goal. And the opposition to it is overwhelming. But, a lot of people would love to have a sane civilization. Look at how corrupt and insane our congress and government are. Wouldn’t you make some sacrifices to have a sane government, one where both parties could actually come to common interests without rancor?

    So, you had all these people, seeing the importance and value of creating a sane world in the face of overwhelming opposition. A job that would require toughness and perseverance, a job for which wimps need not apply. It’s like going into SEAL training; you know it’s going to be hard and that you might not make it, but your sense of honor makes you stick it out as long as you can, no matter how brutal the instructors or conditions.

    It reduces to a matte of importance. Of having a goal for which you are willing to sacrifice all else.

    In many religions, you have the concept of reincarnation and many lifetimes. Against a backdrop of many lifetimes, thousands and thousands of lifetimes, what is the sacrifice of one? Would you spend your last dollar for a rotten sandwich if you could have gourmet meals for the rest of your existence simply by investing that dollar? Sort of like the lottery; except you’re convinced you will win. What’s a little starvation? Hell, you can starve for a day.

    For whatever reason, most people are dependent on others for ideas. The great ideas, we’re in awe of. We dance around these ideas with rapture, caught up in a religious frenzy, naked, glistening, lit by roaring bonfires. The rapture is hypnotic. And someone standing at the edge of the clearing watching all this would think the participants mad.

    Like watching the Democrats and Republicans espouse their nonsense with such conviction. Utterly mad. But convinced of their rightness.

    And it is the nature of all of us to want to be right. We will be right if it kills us. And once we’ve adopted an idea, to disavow it would fly in the face of that rightness. Bam. Violent collision. We would be wrong. And the disavowal would be gut wrenching and painful, like a messy divorce from someone whose name we tattooed across our forehead. How friggin’ embarrassing is that? How will we explain it to the family?

    A big part of intelligence is the ability to arrange and rearrange data. Like solving puzzles. How do you put these pieces together? And logic deals with putting data together in acceptable or predictable patterns. Your patterns don’t have to be true, they just have to match expectations. And the data can be crazy or faulty, but in the system of logic and intelligence being applied, that often is irrelevant.

    If the datum is assigned the value of “correct” then it is correct within the system being used. If it is deemed “faulty,” it is faulty within that system, within that puzzle. That other systems deem that data otherwise is irrelevant within the given system.

    Humans are always dealing with limiting intelligence, limiting systems. Our senses in and of themselves limit our system. Our use of language limits our system. Our cultural ideas limit. There are so many limits and parameters placed on human intelligence.

    And the system of Scientology contains limiters on intelligence while also containing expanders on intelligence. Part of Scientology actually allows a person to reach beyond its system and apply intelligence beyond the confines of Scientology.

    But, that freedom of intelligence also flies in the face of the limiters, and very few seem able to balance the contradictions and move beyond them.

    Which goes back to the dependence most humans have on others for ideas. The more dependent you are on another to think and reason for you, the less capable you are of independently reasoning. It is just so self-evident. The more independently one can reason, the less dependent on the ideas and logic of another. Including Hubbard and Gandhi and Buddha and Jesus–I’ll just leave out the invidious examples such as Hitler and Stalin and….oooopppps!

    So, you have the rightness factor, the importance factor, the ideological dependency factor, the willingness to sacrifice for a greater good. (and this is a quantitatively additive greater good rather than a subtractive-lets-harm-John misunderstanding of “greater” good. The greater good of moral reason and principle rather than justification of what’s convenient.)

    Of course, you would be a fool to invest in anything I say. My stock here has plummeted with zest of a bear sliding down a greased pole. Ah, the rapture of those whose intelligence demands a closed and “acceptable” system. No other ideas need apply. Plop! The bear’s fat ass hits the gravel with a thunk and a thud and a moan, much to the delight of those who hate wildlife, including tigers, eagles and squirrels. Especially squirrels. Yuk! The only thing worse than a squirrel is a squirrel who cusses and pokes fun at MY sacred ideas.

    I would go edit this, because it’s probably of some importance, and I should at least try to get rid of the typos, but my ass hurts from hitting the gravel so I think I’ll go soak it in epsom salts–while I think of some ideas all on my own.

    But, hey, what do I know? I am just a poor boy who has squandered my resistance on a pocket full of mumbles, such are promises. All lies and jests. Still, a man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest.


  184. Wise Beardman

    His words are wise

    His face is beard

  185. Loser Allender is Losing.

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