Larry Anderson (Mr. Orientation) blown off by DM’s Basics

The face of the Orientation film has left the Church

See the St Petersburg Times article detailing Larry Anderson’s parting from the Church,  Please note how DM’s Basics release created Larry’s departure.  Please also note how Davis conditioned the repayment of unused fees upon muzzling Larry (caught on audio tape – and provided on the SPT website) in gross violation of longstanding LRH policy.  While Larry is apparently not wanting to have anything to do with the subject these days, he made it clear to me that he is no enemy of ours.

141 responses to “Larry Anderson (Mr. Orientation) blown off by DM’s Basics

  1. PR flap, after PR flap, after PR flap, after…

    Do they ever get tired of messing things up?

    They are supposed to handle this kind of “special affairs”.

    Leave a room abruptly in the middle of an interview, yelling, tell disconection does not exists…

    What´s next?

    Many people knows that this are bad manners.

    This boy knows this?

  2. He wasted many months talking to the wrong end of the horse.

    The correct way to get your money on account back is described on ESMB with examples for several different orgs, including Flag and the Freewinds.

    If you cut to the chase and send a strong letter with a signed and witnessed Release and Waiver attached, you will speed up your Repayment cycle. It is not a Refund cycle if you have not done a service and the money is on account.

    The Chaplains and KOTs involved are actually quite polite, but you will find that they may be double posted and hard to connect with during daylight hours.

  3. Kathy Braceland

    I really enjoyed listening to the recordings. I know it wasn’t an amusing matter but boy, there were parts where I burst out laughing with the ridiculous things that fell out of Tommy and his wife’s mouth. More truth being revealed….

    Nice going Larry!

  4. Holy smoke!! Someone from CC – in the days of Yvonne!!

    Welcome Larry. As handsome as ever!


  5. Wow,

    The hits just keep on coming for DM-ology.

    BTW Marty, slight typo in your post above.

    Thanks again for keeping the IF updated.


  6. Tommy Davis and Co. have made such a sham of everything Scientology used to stand for. Those audio tapes were pathetic and despicable with Tommy Davis and Jessica Flashback actively trying to bargain, bully, and intimidate Larry into silence.

    Religious freedom means just that. The freedom to have or reject. The freedom to select what is true for you, and to live by your own observations. Scientology will never be for everyone. It never has been for everyone. And no one can legislate or otherwise enforce desire. As society moves forward, barbaric practices must cease. Disconnection, alienation, intolerance, threats, intimidation and extortion must be discarded.

    If someone wants their money back, they should simply get it back. Period.

  7. I can not tell you how much I have hated and hate the “Orientation” film. I especially hated the infamous jump of a bridge quotes which caused many thinking people to leave without doing a course.

    One Div 6 person told me that it got rid of the SPs and PTSes. Ha ha ha ….. It kept the robotically inclined and blew off the able.

    I guess Tommy Davis has never read the Auditor’s code but then again I don’t think DM has either.

  8. Jeee!
    I’d seen him dozen times, the poor dm should be desperate now, stop orienting new people… is a problem isn’t it?

    Marty, I’d met you long time ago maybe in 1992 here in Italy, I gave you a little present for Guillaume Lesevre, and after 2 weeks GL wrote me back thankfully…!

    Thank you tootallguy!

    see you here ^^


  9. As Tommy said in his audio comm to Larry this his leaving could create “quite an effect”.

    Tommy, you are absolutely right. Larry’s departure as the “Mr. Orientation” will definitely creat a major effect. As it already is.

    Tommy also mentioned in this meeting that he speaks/spoke with many unhappy/disaffected people.

    Wow! What does that tell you Tommy? Yes Tommy! You have more unhappy/disaffected Scientologists than you have happy & robotic ones.

    Tommy & Jessica, shame on you both for being accessory to the SP(DM) and delivering his squirrel tech which as a result you are creating more disaffected people, as well as enemies for LRH and Scientology.

    Tommy, Jessica, OSA! Can you now spot the real SP (DM)? I hope you soon do.

  10. Larry was really impressive in his holding his ground against Tommy and Jessica’s BS, two against one meeting.

    It’s inconceivable that these two aren’t aware of the Policy of Refunds & Repayments.

    Also that it’s part of the filing with IRS.

    Tom Tobin and Joe Childs did another good round of getting the truth out!

  11. Watch your back Larry—WH is a guy.

  12. War and Peace

    The Basics Event would have made me vomit ~~ had I sat through it.
    I walked out half way. I could not sit through the tripe and fluff and froth.
    LRH allowed bad copies to be read and studied from 1950 til 1986 ~~ Give me a break !
    Copies messed up by “SPs” “Born the wrong side of the Gene Pool” so DM said.
    DM was virtually proclaiming himself the Messiah.
    HE had to correct LRH editions.
    He had to bring out the ” true” version
    Like the dupe I was, I am ashamed to admit that I purchased multiple sets anyway from desperate panic stricken staff members.
    Staff in CW and LA literally pleaded on the phone they were not allowed to secure and sleep til they sold their quota.
    Sleep deprivation to soar the Basics Sales Stat.
    I have it on good authority that this enforcement of selling Basics and sleep deprivation led to the biggest route out and departures of staff ever.
    Bravo Larry !!
    Tell it like it is.

  13. Larry seems to be a lovely guy. Tommy and Jessica come across as velvet-gloved thugs. No one’s complained about having to buy the Basics? Yeah, right.

  14. I don’t understand something: Larry Anderson makes a point about the services he paid for actually purchased something. (the 2nd tape) and I don’t get the way Tommy Davis refutes it.

    Larry points out he didn’t DONATE, he purchased actual services for set fees. Davis draws a (nonexistent) parallel, using services in other religions as a comparable example, saying it’s like when you make a donation to any other church, you don’t participate and then ask for the donation back.

    But Catholics, for example, don’t “charge” to go to Confession or take Holy Communion!? It’s a bogus comparison.

    No other church I know charges set prices for services like the Franchise Trademarked Orgs do. They charge a set fee per specific action.

    So how is that a “donation”? I don’t understand that.

  15. Thoughtful wrote; “Those audio tapes were pathetic and despicable with Tommy Davis and Jessica Flashback actively trying to bargain, bully, and intimidate Larry into silence.”

    Yes they were.

  16. LOL-Jessica Flashback! How awesome is that spot on comment? Tommy is DM’s little “mini-me” Sounds just like him. I love how he always pulls out his:”I’m not going to have you sit here and attack me and my Church. If you say it again, I’m going to get up and leave. I’m not going to have you attack the God of Scn., the devil incarnate himself, DM.” whine, whine, wine….want some cheese? sniff, sniff, sniff. So, Major Ass Kisser, get up and leave and never come back! And here his mother founded Artists for Human Rights, and her son is helping to violate them on a daily basis. Go figure. ~

  17. It’s really odd how towards the end of the meeting Tommy and Jessica are running for the doors because Larry is about to say something bad in regards to their God: David Miscavige.

    I guess DM was informed that Larry had “black PR on the leader”. So DM ordered to retaliate by not paying back the money.

    Another example of how the church management is corrupt.

    How many more examples do you need Tom?

  18. cc
    Me on comment board SPT.

    Tommy Davis is an idiot.

    I wouldn’t of sent an email, nor would I have lifted my pinky, after that meeting.

    The 11 month wait was gracious enough on Mr.Anderson’s part.

    Tommy’s mother, the wonderful American actress Anne Archer, ought to have a very stern scornful talk with Her Son. Not only is his behavior reprehensible. His best friend and Pal he hangs around with is a well noted sadistic Bully.

    Not only does the Church of Scientology owe Mr.Anderson his money, per Hubbards’ Policy, but also a very honest sincere Public Apology, to say the least.

    His part in the Film was excellent.
    Not to mention a calculated Royalty Commission for the many millions the Film ‘Orientation’ brought into… the stink-of-sin Church.

    His part in the Film was excellent.

    Ms.Archer. Talk to your son about his behavior, women.


  19. I can’t think of a more fitting symbol of what is going on with the c of $ right now than the picture of Larry Anderson, in Orientation film mock-up, with his hand out-stretched and the caption “He wants his money back.”

    I’m pretty sure it will prove to be iconic for all scientologists.

    I wonder if Mr. Anderson would consent to being put on a t-shirt…

  20. Just amazing how Davis and Co. continually shoot themselves in the foot. It’s really like the Keystone Cops.

    Larry made it abundantly clear over and over and over that all he wanted was his money back and he’d be on his way. He even spelled it out that he wasn’t intending on being an anti-Scn.

    A rational person would say something along the lines of, “Larry, I’m really sorry to hear Scn didn’t work out for you. You’ve been a tremendous asset over the years, a good friend to so many and it’s been a pleasure to have you in this group. We wish you the absolute best in your future life and would like to leave you with this sentiment from LRH, the door is always left open a crack. Now, let’s get this routing form started…”

    So naturally they went the absolute opposite way! Does no one notice they continually create the problems they’re combatting? That if they’d just leave people alone they wouldn’t have “battles”?

    And what about Tommy and Jessica “not hearing” anything negative about COB. Aren’t they the front line people? Aren’t they suppossed to be the ones handling that sort of thing? Are they really so weak/robotic that they can’t even HEAR a negative word? Wow, talk about weak thetans…

  21. What really amazed me was how the thing both Tommy and Jessica reacted to was any negative comment about DM. Seems like you could say anything bad about the tech, LRH, and the staff but god forbid you say any critical remark about DM. I thought they were going to leave the room again!

  22. I like Larry, but I have to admit I hated the film ‘Orientation’, I was convinced that Miscavige must have written the script himself. The make wrong ending seemed to be in his trademark style.

    The whole taping episode reminds me of Nixon discussing hush money with Ehrlichman. In fact this whole thing could be Scientology’s Watergate!

  23. I cannot express in words how hilarious and happy I was to learn of these tapes. I could not believe that the guy I saw in that video actually left a year ago! So crazy! This is awesome! Oh Davey, it’s sinking fast.

  24. Dear Marty,

    What I’m most upset about that guy is he got 750 $ per day (35 000 $ for the whole job) and the whole crew was working for nothing and he knew and saw it !
    I was such a fool that I produced High Stats and when I went off staff even paid a high freeloader bill. Ha ha ha what a fool I was ! I never liked his orientation movie thinking it has nothing to do with Scientology, but I paid the guy. Ha ha ha fools are dancing !
    Congratulations on your trends at alexa com.
    I would like to thank you again and your group for what you’re doing.
    You won’t believe it. My wife, that can’t read english too well, was in terror that I’m lurking on the internet, fearing Hco, Osa, our friends and the possible consequences for us all.
    I started to translate your blog to her. For the last 30 years I’ve never seen such blowdowns on my wife. My god I can’t write anymore she doesn’t stop telling cognitions. The key blog that got her out of her appathy was this about the state of clear.
    Thanks a lot I got my wife back and it’s now me to be in terror as she’s a tiger when she got something !
    another thought; Theo is a pro in handling and organizing translations. Would be great if he could somehow get your blog and the other ones translated. This I suggest only because then my wife could read all ! No other intentions !
    In 2-3 Months we’ll fly to South-America and could make a stop in Texas to visit you if you got some time ?
    Ok Thanks again !
    Have a nice Day !

  25. Sinclair Lewis:

    When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying the cross.

  26. Jeez giving Larry his money back could have prevented this whole PR-flap.

    Yet again another footbullet for DM. Thank you David for playing the Game.

  27. Listening to this dialogue between Larry, Tommy and Jessica has opened up a new door for me. A door whereby I now have access to a enitrely new perception of the Scientology game. For whatever the reason, this conversation between these three people allowed me to find and open up the proverbial closet door that, once opened, its concentrated contents become a formidable avalanche. And while I’m now up to my neck with new points to view, I am not buried. Lots to explore here. No doubt this is blog material.

    Larry talking about the Basics being the last straw, is something I can totally relate to. The first time I watched the dvd I really had to work hard to suppress all of the questions that were popping up as well as forcing myself to mock up GIs. The second time I watched it I could not even begin to hold down all of the red flags springing forth and the more I watched the more BIs I became. And, damn it! This response of mine to this “wonderful” event where perverted LRH was being wiped off the table and pure LRH was being ushered in by COB, who, by the way, I very much respected and admired, gave me one hell of a problem! So yeah, Larry, I know what you’re talking about when you say the Basics were the last straw. For me, though, it wasn’t the last straw, it was the burr under the saddle. It’s what got me to bucking.

    Tommy and Jessica: You two are puppets and the strings are visible.

    Also, this conversation put the spotlight on how absurd and insane this notion is of if you leave us you can’t talk to anybody in the church, you lose all your friends and they lose you and, furthermore, if you leave you are now our enemy.
    It’s so damn nuts!! It’s so George W. Bush.

  28. Listening to Larry Anderson’s audio tapes of his conversation with Tommy Davis and Jessica Feshbach at have helped me focus on something that seems important for this group to consider.

    At the church’s core – and at Scientology’s core, too – is something rotten that must be cut out if anything good about Scientology has a chance of surviving. That worm at the core is “absolute certainty” and the attendant hubris introduced by LRH’s powerful personality, which so many Scientologists, staff and public alike, adopt and leverage.

    I’m talking about the kind of certainty that permits no consideration and discussion, much less doubt, of church policies and technology, training and auditing experiences, executives’ behavior, arbitrary social mores, and ecclesiastical dicta. Those who enforce this kind of certainty become arrogant and cruel. Those who bow to it become servile and self-loathing.

    Absolute certainty is the lukewarm bath we all willingly slid into as Scientologists. Gradually it got warmer, then hotter, and finally boiled the dreams of those who didn’t know they had the option of jumping out before it was too late.

    In an age of great transparency, we are left with the command-and-control church of Scientology circa 2010 – a staggeringly tacky version of Versailles. The Sun King is dead. The Dauphins are dead or irrelevant. And Napoleon is now bankrupting the empire.

    For anyone now in or out of the church of Scientology, this clearly isn’t working. After the church’s current dictator is removed, much more about its practices must be reformed if the church and Scientology itself can survive.

  29. I am currently threatening to go to the media if I do not get my unused funds back. This has been the only thing that has gotten thier attention. They totally ignored legal threats, or complaining to the ways & means. I think they must have plants at the IRS & know that most legal threats or bottomless. I would think the media is currently the best approach. But just my opinion. On ESMB people have had success with those letters. However people should rewrite them and make the sound original. If the COS is getting an influx of the same letter they would/could put 2 n 2 together. This would render the letter uneffective.
    I was dealing with the chapplin at the ship & in one month the Chapplins hat changed 4 times. I am not sure if they were messing with me or if FSSO is really that messed up. Hehehehe:)

  30. Hei Snaduke it looks like you might be italian, contact me if you please.

  31. To Tommy Davis and company: ” You are a real disgrace to scientology and LRH!!! Dig yourself a hole till the center of the Earth and stay there where you really belong”

  32. I kinda feel sorry for Tommy. He sounds like he really believes the pov he has adopted. I know sympathy isn’t going to be any help to him, but it really is kind of a shame. He comes across as a very dedicated and tragically misled little guy.

  33. martyrathbun09

    Just me, intereseting observation in light of the fact that LRH policy been followed there never would have been such a meeting, muzzle threats, nor any other of the inane, twisted utterances of Tommy and his colleague

  34. martyrathbun09

    LO, thanks for the translation work and good idea. Look forward to you stopping by.

  35. martyrathbun09

    Flur, good observation. That is something Mike Rinder an I shared notes on when we met again after leaving. We both share how that very observation – DM caring little for black PR on LRH, and going thermo nuclear when his own name was mentioned by the press – grated on us for years.

  36. Tommy Davis never suffered want. Tommy Davis is spoiled and sees things as if a beloved toy of his is being taken away and the grown ups are to blame.

  37. And who is there to insure your percieved version of LRH policy is being Implemented in future ? If you say all of us, you need to adopt a system in wich all of you are heared.

  38. John Doe Lurker

    I detested that film. That film alone would be enough to discourage me from bringing any new people in.

    Perhaps the new film will just be shelved. That would actually benefit the church and they can save “millions of dollars” otherwise spent redoing the film.

    The cracks in the church of mestology just keep getting wider…

  39. Joe: The is another factor at play in the reaction of Tommy & Jessica. Like the rest of us they do have that urge toward survival, however misguided it may be at this point.

    Do you realize the consequences if they don’t react in the manner they do on that particular subject?

    It really is a basic misunderstanding of the application of The Responsibility of Leaders policy. Instead of protecting their leader they get his dirty laundry aired publicly by such a gross mishandling. Handled correctly and effectively we wouldn’t be reading it on this bright Sunday morning 🙂

  40. Joe Doakes, above comments ‘a rational person would say…’ Well, what does a rational person, namely L. Ron Hubbard actually say about refunds. Here it is, from 23 Oct 63, LRH’s refund policy, in OEC Vol 3.
    “…my firm policy that persons who demand refunds may have them exactly according to
    the Code of a Scientologist, but that any person demanding or accepting refunds thereafter shall be refused as an HGC preclear and posted for the information of field auditors.

    I have only worked then with these three policies:

    1. Refund at once in full any refund demanded;

    2. Work hard with tech staff to ensure good results;

    3. Forbid the sale of further processing to anyone receiving a refund and make the case known to Scientologists.”

    Further in the policy it states:
    “A Central Organization is as successful as it gives good technical service.

    “A tough refund policy injects aberrated stable data against the confusion of bad or poor technical service. A mild refund policy keeps technical on its toes.
    “The world of Scientology is based on ARC and held together with ARC. Bad technical and tough attitudes concerning the remedy of poor service break down this world.

    “My own often repeated policy to my personal staff is “Give them what they want and keep them happy.” That sounds like a very
    indefinite policy indeed. But it makes people face up to and handle individual confusions as they occur, each on its own merits, it
    presupposes people are basically good and it is successful.”

    Compare the above to DM’s policy as dramatized by Tommy Davis and his wife.

  41. Thought provoking

    WOW, This is HUGE! Having the spokesperson request his money back says a lot.

    Not only will Orientation showings cease (until they get the “new” spokesperson role replaced) but ALL of the release waivers (a Div 6ers nightmare) will need to be redone in the interim as one of the points states that the person has watched Orientation and many checksheets require viewing Orientation as well.

    Flur, I agree with you on the final part of Orientation. I have seen many occassions where a person was tracking and VGIs and they heard that line only to change their mind. It is a make wrong, not a come on.

    Larry did an excellent job in the interview clips. He didn’t allow it to get into a Q and A about connections and just kept it on point. Well Done. The handling is very typical and the only outright falsity is that they didn’t have to repay him for services not received. There is no middle ground on this point. They have to pay. All of the rest of the coersive tactics were on par.

    I am sure that there is going to be a lot of Tommy and Jessica criticism but I have to say that I felt sorry for them as I listened. There were points in the interview in which it was clear that there was no way to salvage this cycle – the main point of the meeting. I could almost feel the life energy slip away from Tommy and Jessica at times. They were given an assignment to handle Larry. Failure to do that would have huge ramifications for the church and would certainly put them in disfavor with DM and his wrath. I have been in similar situations and it is a horrible place to be. Criticism of individuals alone does not forward our management awareness campaign. Criticism of corrupt activities done by individuals will.

    In the end it was clear that the comm formula was violated in this handling. Larry had originations regarding COB’s corruption and they “the handlers” refused to be there and confront and instead refused to accept any criticism of COB and chose to invalidate his comm. They were screwed either way. If they follow the comm formula then they get killed by DM so they have to refuse the comm.

    The sad thing is, this same “not is” is still rampant in the church. “Looking” is still bad, witness the Facebook drop-offs when someone goes public. There are too many people PTS to DM either directly or indirectly.

    Tiziano’s statement, “I remember…when Tom Davis was an upstat, uptone, funny and energetic guy…back when we were friends.” was very real to me because I remember when Jessica was that way too. When you have known someone for a very long time, it is very easy to see the shift in valence when it occurs. We are witnessing many cases of Scientologists in the winning valence. Telling the truth does not mean we need to alienate those who still can’t see. It needs to be told because it is the only thing that will create the as-isness we are all seeking. Telling the truth and applying what is greatness at the same time shows our understanding of LRH and his infinite compassion for man.

  42. I noticed that too , but I believe it’s an act. After all, this is the same guy who has so many colorful quotes, among them saying that people in the Sea Org were “tough son’s of bitches” and that, yeah, if someone messes up (can’t remember the exact quote) he’d throw ’em overboard!
    (Hell yeah! And hope they fuckin’ drown too!) (that last in parenthesis being my own embellishment.)
    He’s on good behavior. He know he’s being taped. He knows that later on he’s probably going to be listening to it here on Marty’s site. His voice sounds so calm and sweet, but that can’t hide the outpoints in things he’s saying. 1.1’s are clever actors. And when I say 1.1, I’m being generous.

  43. Exactly so! Absolutely horrible film. Totally out-reality to new people…”in the last 76 trillion years we are the only hope of this universe”, or something like that. When I saw it, Larry looked robotic and zealoous at the same time, ie; “cultified” . And that horrible infomercial format… ag! If I was a new person, I would have run for the hills.
    Another weird thing abou t that film, in a little snippet of my own life: I was Clear, and I had come to Flag to finally get my case sorted out after having been majorly messed up in some previous auditing. I mean seriously ill and almost a psychotic break after auditing. (no longer merely at risk, but way into the deep shit…still handling it on OT5- home version of course, and yes, that is possible, actually quite workable.) I’m a long time verteran Scientologist, ex-S.O. The c/s’s first action was to send me to watch that ##%%***video, not once, mind you, but twice, just to make sure I really got it….sighhh…oh man, that was only the beginning.

  44. QuietDisobedience

    The Basics sales reminded me of the stat push book sales in NY (albeit the Basics were much much more expensive) after the NYO Grand Opening. All public saw in events were the stats of books sold. What they didn’t see is that they were being sold by the entire CLO, CMO and NYO staff for weeks and weeks, out on the streets in the cold NY winter. Sometimes from as early as 9 am until midnight . The CLO virtually empty and posts abandoned. When you finally got back, you had to stay up even later in order to actually do your post. It’s one of the most flagrant and ridiculous stat pushes I’ve even been party to. Getting Dianetics into public hands shouldn’t leave you feeling degraded and like a fraud.

    War and Peace, you say you felt ashamed that you bought the Basics. Imagine feeling ashamed that you sold copies of Dianetics?

  45. Lunamoth suggested putting Mr. Anderson on a t-shirt. Large picture of his face, slogan at the top reads:

    “I got my

    and at the bottom:

    “I want my money back!”

  46. Marty, could you ask LO to PM me? Urgent.
    Thanks, Mockingbird6

  47. “Man is basically good, yes. His experience has led him into evil and he very often solves his problems from his own point of view, of course, he gets other points of view into trouble: what is good for a duck hunter is not good for the duck.” –

    L. Ron Hubbard


    “It’s human nature to abuse power, no matter who you are.”

    Naomi Wolf

  48. I agree, Sinar. Larry did a brilliant job of staying on target. As you say, very impressive.

  49. You got your wife back? Yippee!!

  50. becomingAware

    Life must be really hard for the remaining SO staff that are trying hard to do good. One Hill 10 after another. As long as ‘management’ continues to attribute cause to others . . . .

  51. Anons are working on transcripts of all the audio. You’ll find them here:

  52. martyrathbun09


  53. Thought Provoking,
    Superb post. Well taken. I agree 100%.

  54. I do feel sorry in a way for Tom and Jessica. They are duped – like many other guys. I was duped too for a long time, until I saw some light. The light will shine for them too, at some p0int.

  55. FSSO is that overwhelmed and not just in the Chaplains office. I have had a book order in for a month and it keeps getting messed up and the wrong product sent to me.

    If you have not sent in a signed and witnessed release and Waiver, you may wait for a long time.

    DMarie, I will email you a copy and you just fill in the blanks and send it in.

    Use Tone 40 in your emails, not persuasion. No HE&R either, just high ARC Tone 40.

    “Here is a copy of my signed Release and Waiver. The hard copy is in the mail today.”

    “Email me when it arrives.”

    “Please send all necessary paperwork to the CVB.”

    Send the check (s) to the address below.”

    Ignore the routing form as there is no reason for you to go to Flag to get your money back on a Repayment cycle.

    The Chaplain is overwhelmed and seems to be on post around midnight.

    If anyone has questions, you are welcome to send me a private email and I will endeavor to help you.

  56. Great points Joe!!


  57. Totally agree, I didn’t bring my then boyfriend in because the film was so smarmy. Who if not already in Scientology has the reality that it’s not the planet we are trying to save. Very creepy & out reality for the masses to have. I’m glad Mr. Anderson has left. What does it matter if I leave. I was not a face of Scientology. I believe that the more “faces” that leave, the more regular public will start questioning. Maybe someday soon a Travolta will leave. That would definatly make some major waves!

  58. Veritas:
    So how is that a “donation”? I don’t understand”.
    Everything is called a donation in $cientology. For example, they state that a Course cost $8,000.00, then you deposit 6 grants toward the course you want to take. That’s considered a donation. You deposit 2 grants more, complete the course, and still is a donation. They do not call it the price of the course, but in fact it is.
    In the cafeteria, a plate has a price and it is considered a donation. If you buy coffee it is a donation. I hope I have answered your question.
    When you put money in the account for services not yet taken, the money is fully refundable per IRS agreement, so they are changing the rules now from what was agreed before.

  59. Well, he’s right! : )

  60. #14: 3:25

    Larry – “That’s corrupt. That’s corrupt. There’s no other word for it.”

    Tommy – softly replies, “Well, it is.”

    Of course, he, Tommy, does know.

  61. P. Henry, I believe it was Jim Logan a few weeks back said it best when he was called re the Basics and asked if he had seen the event releasing the Basics and he responded that he had and had written a KR on it. That was one of the best chuckles I had in a long time.

  62. Wow, Thought Provoking, great post. Thanks for putting the “high road” right out there. It really is a more compassionate and correct, and ultimately more successful viewpoint from which to operate, and exactly the way any one of us would want to be handled.

    But Tommy Davis still pisses me off.

  63. Just Me,
    I have certainty that LRH policy was not followed in Larry Anderson’s situation. Complete, utter, categoric, without any question or doubt. With that, I can see exactly how this should have been handled, from the get go. Also, on 23 Oct 1963, LRH himself pointed it up in his policy of that date, from OEC Vol 3. In that policy he also says very, very clearly:
    “The more thetan you have present, the less policy you need and the better things run. Only a thetan can handle a post or a pc. All
    he needs is the know-how of minds as contained in Scientology. That was all he ever lacked. So, given that, sheer policy is poor stuff
    as it seeks to make a datum stand where a being should be. That’s the whole story of the GPM’s. So why not have live orgs?”

    So, my certainty is that a being replaced by an idea, fixed, false, not working, causing more flap than resolving, to wit, exactly what Tommy and Jessica are doing, and which idea is completely contrary to actual church policy by the way, is what has gone on here in this interview with Mr. Anderson.

    Jessica Feshbach uttered the inanity that they, the church were under no obligation to give Mr. Anderson a repayment of his money for unused services. That is false. They ARE obligated by LRH policy, thus the law, both of which are part and parcel of the 501 (c) status of the church’s agreement with the IRS.

    I have certainty on many things, that my dear, is knowledge.

  64. PH,

  65. Is this the same book selling program that got sent around for everyone to duplicate as it was so successful in NYC? The program/hatting received didn’t include staff coming off post – all done by public.

  66. I just have to say that I am so happy to be out. It’s like almost uncomfortable to just say what I want. I think it will get easier as time goes by. Thanks again for this blog:)

  67. the tapes were very telling it sounds like two 13 year olds running a company…

    high level executive meeting …MY ASS ..
    what a waste of Larry’s valuable time
    spending time with these 2 very immature sounding high level scientology executives …
    no wonder the ship is sinking ..

    all out love
    nate and mona

  68. David from England

    I once knew a judge who jokingly confided in me one day that he and his fellow judges would sometimes pre-judge the guilt or innocence of a defendant or the accused by whether or not they passed ‘the head test’; ie. does this person look guilty or not. (Obviously they didn’t base their rulings on this…)

    I’ve just been to the SP Times site.

    Tommy Davis does not pass the head test.

  69. Thanks, Marty and Cat Daddy, for reading and responding.

    As Marty knows, I’m late to this conversation, having started to read info online about Scientology only a month ago. So nothing I say here will likely be earth-shattering to those who’ve been in this conversation for years.

    Here’s where I’m coming from: When people are prevented from originating and contributing, but are only permitted to be pieces on a board, what else are they going to do but go downhill? And when Scientologists go downhill, that’s the end of Scientology. In fact, that’s true of any group’s members and their group.

    If we were to look back on our entire Scientology careers and with 20-20 hindsight see more clearly who the real SPs were, I’ll bet dollars to donuts most were not only screamers and sadists, but brooked no co-creation, not even the slightest little bit, on any of their programs.

    With that same 20-20 hindsight, what would we now see as the salient characteristics of our most beloved execs, auditors, supervisors, chaplains, MAAs and others who made us want to be part of the group and play the game? Again, I’ll see your donuts and raise you more dollars that those we trusted the most (and made the group strongest) were those who, among other things, invited co-creation.

    As Larry Anderson was quoted in today’s St. Pete Times: “… [W]e are not sheeple.”

    Here’s an interesting datum: I’ve been out of Scientology since 1987 (Cl IV, OT IV, Kha Khan, PDC, etc.) because I fell out of agreement with much of what I saw then. In the last ten years I haven’t given Scientology more than two minutes of serious consideration. Today I’m commenting about it on a public blog. Somewhere somebody ought to notice that this event represents an upstat for Scientology.

  70. Tommy Davis’s voice sounded constrained menace & condescending, like he was talking through his nose. 😦

    When Tommy Davis and Jessica Feshbach were cutting and interrupting Larry Anderson’s originations about David Miscavige they got upset. The upset sounded reactive, how they jumped on every utterance. Can you imagine the amount of duress and penalty they have to endure if they do *not* perform for their puppet master that way?

  71. martyrathbun09

    Juss Me, I recognize it. And I appreciate it and you.

  72. Those concerns, while valid, did not keep us from implementing the Constitution of the United States.

    “”I have sworn upon the altar of God eternal hostility against every from of tyranny over the mind of man.” – Thomas Jefferson

  73. Here is an interesting snippet from the David Frost – Richard Nixon interview from the 1970’s.
    Richard Nixon responded to a question about the Watergate break-in “And I have always maintained, what they were doing, what we were all doing was not criminal, look when you are in office you’ve got to do a lot of things sometimes that are not, in the strictest sense of the law, legal, but you do them because they are in the greater interest of the nation … I’m saying that when the President does it, that means it is not illegal”

    Have we all as Scientologists maybe not spoken up, or did things ourselves, or saw things happening which we did not feel correct, but we did them or we kept our mouths shut because they were for the ‘greatest good for the greatest number of dynamics’.

    And do some Scientologists not think that if DM does it, or approves it, then it has to be correct, because he is not capable of doing anything off-purpose, and is not to be questioned about his motives? And is this not the same mind-set expressed by former President Nixon in the now famous interviews?

  74. David from England

    I agree that this is an excellent post, full of appropriate compassion. But one aspect that non-Scns find it hard to deal with is: how many imilar confrontations will the likes of Tommy have to endure before they acknowledge reality. I think virtually anyone would have nothing but total sympathy for the average church member who isn’t exposed on a daily basis to the church’s dishonesty. But people like Tommy must know on some level that they’re disseminating falsehoods. I totally appreciate the straightjacket that people find themselves in when their whole life is identified with a particular group – it isnt easy to breakaway.

    One thing I do notice about Tommy in these tapes and in his earlier interviews in the SPTimes about Marty is how fake he sounds when he ‘gets angry’, usually when he is pressed on points he can’t easily dodge.

    The (in)famous ‘am I angry with you? Not necessarily’ exchange when he was black PRing Marty was a classic example of an empty person trying to come across as genuine. Same with him threatening to walk out. It is actually painful to listen to. He sounds more frightened than angry.

    I think he’s already a broken man, and to that extent, I do feel genuine compassion for him. He’s playing a role that he’s not capable of playing convincingly.

  75. Jim … yes. What you said. Makes perfect sense.

  76. Just me — I agree — absolute certainty doesn’t appear to allow any space — and it’s that space that is key to not developing a rigid fixed view. Without it hubris develops as you aptly pointed out.

    However, I know there exists an LRH lecture wherein LRH speaks of “divine doubt” — it stuck with me because at the time I didn’t understand it … I was hell bent on having “totally certainty” —

    In any case, LRH does speak of divine doubt, the ability to question oneself — it seems to me that one would need to have divine doubt in order to view things pan-determinatively.


  77. Just Me,
    I recognize your return to the conversation, and the game. I very, very much appreciate it. Send me a private mail if you like. I will certainly brook co-creation. Sincerely, Jim

  78. Thought provoking

    David From England,

    Yes, frightened and desperate is correct. The ultimate in fear of failure to uphold DM’s orders.

  79. Jim Logan, could you please post that KR.. I am sure it’d be interesting reading!! Would you?

  80. I would agree that much of what you experience at CoS discourages free thought. And would say that if you support a cause or goal, you really have to scrutinize the groups that say they are trying to forward that, as much as the groups who oppose it.

    I would say having KSW in every pack, as well as all of the sec checking etc., makes people very wary of pointing a critical eye to the top. This is not good because no leader should be free of scrutiny, it’s a recipe for disaster.

  81. That should read “form” of tyranny, sorry!


    ”I have sworn upon the altar of God eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man.” – Thomas Jefferson

  82. It’s disgusting that Co$ pulls this kind of gross act again and again. Difference now is they’re being exposed at a rate so fast, big things are sure to happen. Their sham/front/bs & lies are crumbling around them. Tommy Davis is such a reprehensible douchebag. I am sorry but it disgusts me every time I see any clip w/ him and now this. He tries SOOO hard to sound so intelligent and wise. His favorite word is “certainly”. He is being presented with factual information and time and time again, he can’t confront it. He tries to sound so calm and intelligent and smooth but it’s total bs. I don’t feel sorry for him or this “Jessica” character. If there is LRH policy that says people should be refunded….And there is supposedly no reason why anyone should have problems leaving Scn. if they so choose, I do not get this. They know that people are not scared to come out and tell the truth nowadays….maybe they should rethink some of their “non-existent” policies. Even in the tapes they’re tellin’ homie that he won’t be able to associate w/ Scientologists if he does leave. There’s just so much contradiction. Hats off to Larry though. For holding his own and maintaining his integrity in the midst of so much supression. Tommy, you can’t CONTROL people’s freedom to speak. And when he talks about how Larry speaking out (in any way at all) would harm, hurt, devastate Scientologists…… Hey, I am in the same boat! I want to speak out to all the Scn’s I know! I know what they find out may “hurt” at first sure….but that’s no reason to stomp on the truth. Long live the truth! Let the truth come out. I really love this blog. It rules! XOXO

  83. Cool. I just realized the most dependable “total certainty” is a living condition, a continuum of crosscheck/observation/verification process.

    Attaining certainty doesn’t mean not looking ever again, nor does it exclude doubting or verifying. That’s the beauty of Truth and axioms. One can doubt them as much as one wants to, but if one has the courage to look, so it will still be.

    And *that* is the freedom the $Monopoly Management is denying their members with oppressive tactics. It’s an admission from Management that they regard their members as persons who lack the intelligence to evaluate data, or know truth.

    So here are many of us, with *total certainty* on what was ever true in the first place about Scientology, after having every doubt in the book! …
    ncluding the most insidious evil of all, those inside abusing it 🙂

    Doubt isn’t necessarily bad, it’s been a friend of mine!

  84. Just Me, Great observation! And Jim, you’re such a great example of that. You are 100% standard on policy and tech because you KNOW it, and understand it, and it is a tool. It is a tool. Yet, Life and Truth are infinitely unique and what is a Being if not a Creator?

  85. RJ, I agree, except that I don’t like DM nor Larry.

    It is a bad script as written by somebody who doesn’t get Scientology.

  86. Congrats to Larry Anderson after 33 yrs to have the courage to follow his own personal integrity. I have been checking out this blog for a little while now and I want to share some thoughts on this matter. CSI is out of their minds thinking that refunds are OPTIONAL, it is totally off LRH policy. Things are so completely insane only a fixed viewpointed duressed individual could justify whats going on. I want to thank you Jason Beghe because it was your interview that totally woke me up and filled in the missing pieces that I have always disagreed within the “church”. You put your “mangina” on the line (lol-Californication). I have destimulated from the nonsense and I also want to thank Marty for assembling a commline on this blog, etc. for a vehicle to get the TRUTH out. I am ONLY interested in the truth from an actual standpoint not in any untruth or delusion. All of us who have contributed in Scn and just as a person I believe did so with great intention and noblility, I know I have. For all of us who have been harmed as a result of this goodwill, there is no way in hell that the individuals responsible such as DM will prevail. I knew Tommy Davis when I was at CCint back in 1994 when he was the asst vp (presidents office) behind Susan Watson and Karen Hollander. I always thought he was a dick, but that’s just me. Now he is responsible for so much hurt, pain and upset through lies and crimes that he will have to account for those, it is sad. How can anyone worry for expressing your opinions? The more able the being the more viewpoints he can tolerate. I wish everyone on here all the best as we get to the core of why we all invested as we did and what return on that investment is left.

  87. I think humans can evolve in more ways than technology.

  88. “True genius resides in the capacity for evaluation of uncertain, hazardous, and conflicting information.” – Winston Churchill

  89. War and Peace, boy are you right about the exit of staff after the Basics. I was on staff myself at Pasadena org and in touch with a CLO exec who told me that HCO at the CLO was completely overwhelmed with route outs after months of staff getting stat pushed for book sales, taken off their posts and no sleep. It was a nightmare both for public and staff.

  90. Larry missed 2 great opportunities, due to not being pan-determined enough to assume an evil intention.

    The first was when Tommy asked if Larry had financial difficulty. He should have turned around and asked Tommy how much he had in his bank account.

    The second was when Larry was asked if he had ever helped anyone. He should have asked how many people has Tommy audited or trained.

    If you are in a situation where someone is trying to get you to look inward in order to manipulate, you should take the question and reverse it back to the peson asking it. At minimum ask why are you asking me that question what is your intension. They will probably have to handle it in session later along with their evil intention behind it. Belive me it works beautifully.

  91. Marty, thanks for opening up Larry’s announcement for discussion. I’ve known him since the day he got into Scientology.

    But..I was wondering why you chose these words? “While Larry is apparently not wanting to have anything to do with the subject these days, he made it clear to me that he is no enemy of ours.” Who is “ours” referring to? And who do you consider is the “enemy of ours?”. Sorry but I found that an odd statement.

  92. Hear hear! I agree wholeheartedly NOTSaware

  93. “I feel sorry…” I have a hard time with this one. Where is that viewpoint on the tone scale? I can’t even say that I feel empathy towards Jessica and Tommy. They chose to sell their souls…there is an exact point where a thetan decides to do what he does. I don’t sell my soul anymore. It’s too painful, and wastes too many auditing hours. There comes a point in your universe where you have to suck it up and do something about things. Not just talk, but do. I like do. I like change. I’m working on the do. Putting my comm lines out about DO. Amnesty International? I’m a member. I can call them and work out the do. Any one have any bright ideas? I have high confront, and I don’t really care if I get declared at this point in time as I’m not doing any more services at the church until DM gets removed from post. I’ll do mine off lines…seems like a sane idea at this stage of the game. “Be the change you want to see in the world” Gandhi. ~

  94. martyrathbun09

    Sherry, I meant that Larry knows exactly what we are doing – and he respects it; he doesn’t want to attack it. “Ours” are independent Scientologists. Who are the enemies? Beyond DM – who has spent at least a couple of tens of millions to destroy me personally and those I associate with – and his minions, there are others who haven’t identified themselves who have spammed my phone and email, threatened me by anonymous phone calls – all carrying messages to the effect I need to be taken down because I defend the practice of Scientology. I’ve not declared them an enemy. They’ve treated me as one.

  95. Undisturbed

    I’ve examined this same idea, and I think it’s true.

    At some point each of us decided that scientology was truly the greatest good for the world, and we may have been right, but I think the “lie” entered in when we collapsed together “scientology”, “scientologists,” the church of scientology, etc. They are not all the same thing, yet they are often lumped together as identical values, as though they were.

    The danger of this failure to differentiate is that
    scientologists, like all humans, are capable of some pretty chuckle-headed thinking. The church has turned into a corrupt, corporate monster and it’s leader has been revealed to be a sociopath. If we have identified these things as identical to each other and to the tech, which I think most of us have at one point or another, we don’t even think to question the “greatest good” argument. We are able to bypass our own scruples in situations that may potentially conflict with them.

    Fortunately, when things start to go south most scientologists instinctively look at what we are doing to cause that. Regardless of how long it takes, I’m pretty sure that about 97 1/2% will sooner or later figure it out.

  96. Tommy plays tone scale games and mocks anger to lift “SPs” or “DBs” up tone. If you watch his exchange with Sweeney of the BBC, it’s obvious how fabricated his anger is. I mean, who says “I’m going to get angry with you now” and then, on cue, does? Plus, he figured Sweeney would bite and really get angry back and that’d make good tv (so he got that one right).

    That said, he doesn’t get enough sleep, his eyes are always too red and puffy and he’s constantly sniffing like someone with sinus problems. Or maybe it’s allergies. That part isn’t fake.

    The bigger issue is that he’s in the middle of this mess and DM is his stable datum, so he’s thoroughly PTS. He can’t separate DM from Scientology and as he thinks of himself as a warrior for Scientology – he even got a tattoo of the SO coat of arms – he’s convinced himself that DM is just a tough, demanding “On Source”, High Ethics commander-in-chief.

    He’s like a kid in Iraq, convinced he’s bringing freedom to the United States by stepping on an IED in that god-forsaken shithole.

    What most bothers me most is that although I’ve known him for years, Tommy took to the tyrant’s deputy gig far too readily. He’s in that valence, no longer the guy I knew.

  97. “Any one have any bright ideas?” Contact five people a day on facebook with the websites, I do.

  98. What happens in the C of S is insane. Congrats Larry on having the courage to stand up for what you feel is right. Jason Beghe thanks for doing your video, it woke me up. Marty thanks for doing this blog. You cant make insanity sane, or illogic, logical period.

  99. right on.
    luv it.
    i would so love to get on a heated debate w/ TD & DM…
    i would love to see someone really give it to them good. meaning of course, blast them w/ truths until they confront it & drop the bs…cuz that’s all it is with them. BULL—-SHIT.

  100. Wow. I have so much respect for you and what you stand for and for having the courage to do this. You come across as so laid back and chill. It probably takes alot to get you mad! So, I wonder, do you have a bodyguard? Security? Do you fear for your life? How FAR will they go to silence you and the TRUTH! It’s exciting and scary! I worry about you and your safety sometimes for real. You are truly brave. I am inspired by this blog and learn something new or get a quote that’s worth remembering every visit. Thank you for being a safe terminal and an amazing human being. I will keep you, Mosey, the Independents, the Scientologists all over the globe and even DM & TD in my prayers always. I hope there can change for the better in 2010. It’s time.

    I’ve read so many great quotes here, I thought I’d contribute too:

    “Right thought produce right actions and right actions produce work that will be a material reflection for others to see of the serenity at the center of it all” ROBERT M. PIRSIG

    “Be who you are and say what you feel. Because those that matter don’t mind; and those that mind don’t matter.” DR. SEUSS

    “To sin by silence when they should protest makes cowards out of men.” ABRAHAM LINCOLN

  101. Thanks Boyd! Appreciate your input. I really want to get the SO member’s who are stuck in the RPF out of that hell pit. What the hell happened to the DPF??? Geez, I routed my self on there when I thought I wasn’t producing enough GI back in the mid 80’s. That’s another story/engram. I actually liked the DPF, but it was different back then.

  102. I agree too. That will be part of Larry’s defence if DM does decide to sue (lol) – Larry’s doing them a FAVOUR by getting them to dump the film.

    Which leads me to ask our knowledgeable membership – Who wrote the script?

  103. I agree. Tommy is fake. And glib! He doesn’t exude any compassion or empathy. He really is just a puppet. He’s writing checks that his ass can’t cash. Like someone else said it’s like he’s an actor mis-cast in a role that he can’t play. It’s very sad and sick to see. He’s obviously extremely PTS to the # 1 SP DM!

  104. Dmarie

    It will get easier, and I look forward to you becoming a chatterbox.

    I’m so happy you’re out, too.


  105. jefretheta,
    Excellent post, and thanks for posting. I’ve made a great investment, as you mention, myself. The returns have come in and to date, I’m rich beyond my wildest, really, wildest dreams. I’m looking forward to more investing.

  106. QuietDisobedience

    Dagny – that program is what I’m referring to. At the time staff from Class V and SO orgs were sent to NY to learn the ropes of the book sales. I don’t know how it was run outside of NY, and although public did join in, for the first few months it was staff selling those books to a very large degree. I’m sure after a while it was turned over to NY org and the OT Committee, but that’s how it all started.

  107. because,
    Hmmmm…that sounds familiar, I wonder if I read that somewhere…:-)

    Wonderful quotes!! It seems to be coming close to the time for changing your nickname. Thanks for the quotes and your participation.

  109. I agree. If it would have been for the Orientation film, I would have never joined Scientology!!
    Just the fact that you are forced to seat almost 2 hours to listen to that film is a violation of your basic rights and freedom…
    To survive in DM’s Church you have to become a liar… to others and to yourself as you have to compromise your integrity big times…

  110. Tommy Boy and Jessica Backflash just proved that the C of M is a cult that uses duress and extortion to silence people (Larry is not even a critic, though he’s sure likely to become one as a result of his “handling”). What a couple of arrogant b*tches Tommy and Jessica are. They need to give Larry his money per policy; it’s not optional. It’s a repayment not a refund, and repayments have no time limit. They also weren’t just general “donations” which could be used for any purpose; they were advanced payments for specific services which were never delivered. I think legally, it’s a pretty clear cut case. It’s also out-exchange for them not give Larry his money back. He should sue to get his money back plus damages for emotional distress plus attorney fees.

    It’s also ridiculous that the “church” would try to sue Jason Beghe because they feel they need to re-shoot some movie he acted in. Well, how can you sue someone just for leaving a church? He honored his contract at the time for acting in their lame movies, and it’s a done deal. If they want to re-shoot them, well that’s their problem. No one is forcing them too…

  111. I agree HG.

    Inquiring minds wanna know.

    Who wrote the script to that crap called orientation!

    This is how it felt when I was forced to watch it:

  112. Dmarie, I know exactly what you mean. I made a perfectly legitimate refund request and followed the CVB routing form to the satisfaction of the DSA at St Hill. I was told that I could expect my money within a couple of weeks.

    But instead of repaying MY money, they just tried to ignore me and even refused to take my calls.

    So, I resorted to speaking to the media, my Member of Parliament, consumer associations, Trading Standards AND engaged a legal firm to take them to court. It was only after I had shown them how seriously I meant this, that I got my money repaid.

    Old Auditor, I would NOT recommend signing any waiver until they have a cheque written out and in front of you. You do not have to sign anything to get your own money back, but if it makes the process easier, then create your own version of a waiver and don’t limit your rights to freedom of speech. I was told that I had to sign a waiver promising to never talk about the repayment, or even talk about Scientology to anyone, EVER and to never provide assistance to anyone else who wanted to take action against the CoS. I refused and they backed down.

    If you want a repayment, stand firm and don’t play their game.

  113. Jim, I get a little bit les ARC broken everytime I log on to this page. You are such a positive and inspiring person. Thanks for all your wisdom and comments. I always enjoy and learn from you. I think you are an expert on LRH tech!

  114. Marty,
    thanks for fixing my last typo.
    if u can, pls reply to my last comment i made after a comment of urs. if u can. thx 4 all u do. History in the making baby!

    Take care!

  115. I found the orientation video on YouTube, and talk about Mestology! The first three minutes or so essentially show pictures of buildings and say: “This is a building! This is another building! This one, also a building! If you join Scientology, you too may be able to go inside as many as five, eighty-nine, even TWO THOUSAND BUILDINGS!”

    There’s a Talking Heads goof here somewhere…you’ll recall that their second album was called “More Songs About Buildings and Food”. “More PR About Buildings and Money”?

  116. I think its astonishing that Davis and Feshback,
    knowing this interview was recorded, worried that Larry would publically be critical, proceed to bully and coerce him. Really extortion. Seems
    the only conclusion is that they consider this part of an everyday normal life. They are completely divorced from reality.

    Then Tommy uses his “super weapon”,
    threatens to walk out of the meeting that he called!

    I’m astounded that that orientation film is a pre -requisite for div 6 courses. This will sow the seeds of ” diving off the bridge” at the first heavy reg attempt.

    Clearly DM is divorced from reality also.

  117. I find it disturbing that not at anytime in the inteview with Larry did Tommy or Jessica show any care or concern for him.

  118. UnDisturbed’s points are strong.

    We began, at some moment, to believe so much in our “cause”, our “crusade” that we did not review morality in outside terms. Our only morality was in relation to the cause/crusade.

    How dangerous the group becomes depends on how wide spread the actions are to oppress and hurt others in the name of your cause. When you enter the arena of the law-breaking, human rights violations, improper use of corporate non-profit funds, etc – the government is required to become interested at this point, whether they are a “bunch of SPs” or not.

    For ourselves, having joined now, we are pretty much 100% in – we reinforce further our own “rightness”, not even calling it justification. In our minds there is no requirement to even take one moment for introspection. We are fighting for THE CAUSE. We are followers, and many of us rise to become leaders.

    Remember: We are clearing the planet; we are the only hope for mankind; what we do here and now in and with Scientology…. etc etc. These were not just slogans for us – we BELIEVED IT WITH EVERY OUNCE OF ALL OUR STRENGTH AND ABILITIES.

    After spending years “fighting” for such a cause, no introspection or outside morality comparisons entering our world, what do you expect we will act like? Tommy Davis, of course. He is the “shining example” of the young, strong, SO member fighting suppression, etc etc.

    Forget Tommy’s little outpoints of cutting Larry’s comm and other mistakes in this interview. He should go to cramming, but unfortunately, as we all know, he will not likely go there, he will just get royally roasted by DM yet again. This supressive behavior toward him will be tolerated by him, and he will be “contrite” and anxious to “make amends”… just like we all were.

    It takes strong jolts to make one begin to think, to begin to snap out of all this. It means you have to look back and say you wasted years or most of your life; it means looking at your own face in the mirror and seeing what you yourself have done, and what you have become. This is hard to do. It of course also means that you will be despised, hated, and disconnected from by all your life’s work’s family and friends.

    People will take a LOT of abuse if they believe they are fighting for a just cause, particularly INTERNAL abuse; they will make excuses for all sorts of things because the real truth is just too hard to bear.

    I don’t think Scientologists think that if DM does it, it must be correct; I think it is far worse than that – the higher you get in COS the more you behave that the ends justify the means, and you will do everything possible to NOT LOOK and examine actions too closely.

    Otherwise your pack of cards will come tumbling down.

  119. I forgot to ask Jim Logan for a particular reference.

    First, thanks for all the references you are regularly providing on this blog.

    The question: It’s my understanding that Larry is not asking for a refund (return of funds after receiving services), but a repayment (return of unused funds on account). Isn’t there an additional reference called ‘refunds and repayments’ or something like that?

    Thanks again for the refs.

  120. Lucy, Good observation – there wasn’t any care at all – just blatant eval/inval – you’re a liar – type of affinity.

    There was no granting of beingness and I would be surprised if any of the two actually are auditor trained. Besides, how can you show care or concern in the “I’m Angry” appearing tone level?

  121. OO, there’s a PL which is called Refunds and Repayments. It’s probably in the OEC vols.

    SP Times has a section on that –

  122. Sinar,

    Actually, a Jessica Rodriguez (former married name) is a class 9 auditor and OT 4:

    Amazing that someone that highly trained could grant no beingness and show no real concern for the individual. Make ya wonder, don’t it?

  123. Hi JL
    I don’t remember where I read it or heard about this tactic (LRH?), but one day I had an OTC member who thought I was kinda new to Scn. and asked me how much money I had in the bank (for reg cycle). I turned the question around and asked him how much he had in his bank account and continued to ask how he felt and if he liked it and if he knew who he was dealing with and if he goes around asking strangers that question. He realized he was on automatic became himself again never tried to sell me anything ever again and was quit uptone from then on. See he was just a guy on automatic no evil intention. The one’s like Tommy may cave-in due to their heavy o/w burden.

  124. Barry,

    “Class IX” has got to be one of biggest frauds being perpetrated on an unsuspecting Scientology.

    Actually in most cases a “Class IX” is a Grad V who has done the Advanced Course Specialist Course. The course that teaches one how to audit NOTs.

    When the Ol’man was around they were called what they were supposed to be called Ad Course Specialists. Now they have this phony status like the COB himself.

  125. Jessica is now married to Tommy. Another DM 2-D set up!

    Jessica spends her life around TC and DM, she is completely in their suppressive valance. Lots of inval/eval and anger.
    What do you expect?

  126. RJ – Well, that’s fine, but Class 9 would still be considered “auditor trained”.

  127. It’s funny to mention that being an offloaded CL IX, (I’m also a class VIII by the way), auditing people on the field who have been declared by DM is just a joy, seeing my pcs winning with no effort from my part to keep them in session. They simply are interested in own case and very willing to talk to the auditor. Pure LRH clockwork in action.

  128. Imagine how much money Davey can make from having people “clear'” the Larry Anderson “Engram”.

    Do you think he will go for it ?

  129. True Barry,

    However, someone who graduated the HQS could be considered “auditor trained” as well.

    But my point wasn’t to dispute what you said but to point out that what is called “Class IX” these days in the Church is a fraud.

    It also messes up Auditor Assignment policies as well. I myself was audited by one of these Mickey Mouse “Class IXs” and personally I would have preferred the HQS Grad 🙂

    There are always exceptions to this rule. In fact I’ve seen many Grad Vs who have a better grasp of the tech then many VIIIs. Marty, is a case in point though I’ve never been audited by him. I see by the way his PCs and PreOTs rave about his auditing the guy knows his chit.

  130. Freedom Fighter

    No offense, Larry, but I never did like the Orientation film (not your fault; you did a fantastic job). I remember squirming in my chair every time I brought someone into the local Mission and they were made to watch it — mainly because of the ending.

    When I came first arrived, this is what I was shown (pre-colorized version):

    I remember being rivited because I was getting the scoop straight from the Founder himself. It’s a shame we don’t have more videos of the Old Man.

  131. martyrathbun09

    FF, Thanks. Does anyone have a copy of the LRH film where he introduces the Grade Chart for the first time?

  132. Veritas,

    LRH wrote about this in Science of Survival chapter one. How theta smashes into MEST, withdraws, evaluates and learns and smashes into MEST again. Theta puts order into the MEST Universe and is in conquest of the physical universe.

    “MEST is under raid. Theta is doing the raiding.”

    We have all smashed against the mismanagment and alter-is of the church. We withdraw, evaluate and put in order. That’s what theta does.

    Thanks for your post. Your cognition helped me to cognite and look up the reference.

  133. RJ

    That is one funny video. I was cracking up imagining someone having to watch the orientation video like that!!! Funny!

  134. Theta conquers. It has to learn along the way.

  135. To the point.

  136. OO,
    It’s HCO PL 9 Nov 74R, revised 2 Oct 80, Refunds and Repayments.

  137. RJ,
    FWIW, I’ve never heard of any HQS being referred to as “auditor trained”. Class 9, or even class 5 for that matter, would both be considered audtior trained. Are you telling me there’s no difference between HQS and Class 9? I’m sorry, but I won’t accept that, nor will anyone else.

  138. barry,

    I never said that HQS was the equivalent of any training level above it.

    What I basically said was it was also a training level where one learns how to audit as well.

    Though I gave similarities I no where said they were the same!

    I’m a Briefing Course Graduate myself and know what blood, sweat and tears are required to fully train in the subject!

    It is not for naught that we use to call it the “wall of tapes”!

    I remember picking up this pack about the size of a regular course pack from student admin and staring at it in puzzlement.

    He must of picked up my concern so he said.

    “That’s your checksheet,” then he pointed at the Tech Vols lined up on the bookshelf and said, “those are your course packs.”

    All I’m saying is that calling someone a “Class IX” who has never done the SHSBC and Class VIII is perpetuating a fraud!

  139. Lady Lancelot

    Congratulations Larry, for standing up for what you believe. I hope you get your money back. The only LRH I read on the subject says you should. So I don’t know why Tommy would say the Church doesn’t have to do this. What is he smoking? Anyway, good going.

  140. Lady Lancelot

    To “Because”. You are so right about turning the question back on the person trying to manipulate you.
    This is a different tactic but also effective. A staff member was trying to get me to go to a “briefing” and I didn’t want to. He was using all the usual stuff on me and finally I said to him, “Listen, you seem like a nice person. But let me ask you something. Do I have a choice here?” He fired back, “NO.”
    That broke his circuit. He realized how foolish he sounded.
    I’ve gotten pretty good at this sort of thing. Standing up to regges and MAAs is the answer. An MAA told a friend of mine she was going to have to disconnect from her son.
    She just laughed and got up and left. That was the end of that conversation.

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