The church is dead. Long live Scientology

Two Moving Up and Little Higher commenters understand what Doven and the Kool Aid drinkers apparently cannot wrap their wits around.  I know, not just believe, that they speak for a lot of folks:

Hi All, New poster here. Been listening in for a couple of months now. Laying low only temporarily until the family/work connections
get handled.

I felt compelled to write after hearing the audio of Michael Doven and Marty. I wanted to let Michael Doven (and DM, who I’m sure is
reading every word of this blog) know that Marty has not just attracted the “disaffecteds.” My spouse and I are considered on-line, upstat, in-ethics, OT Scientologists, having done plenty of donos and “volunteer” work. We have both been in for many, many

My comm to Michael Doven is this:

We’ve never met but I think you’re a good guy. I know several of the other guys who came with you and consider them good guys too.
You are doing what you think is the “right” thing to do. I would have done the same thing myself many years ago. In fact, there was a point in the 70’s and early 80’s that I would have done just
about anything to protect the Church. But I would have been doing it for LRH and the Church that he created.

Things have changed.

I’m guessing that because you have been on “celeb” lines, you have no idea what life has been like in LA for an upstat (and per our
current Church mgmt, “upstat” means lucky enough to have some dough left in the bank to be regged later) Scientologist NOT on the
“celeb list.” I think you have no idea what it feels like to day after day have reges, in groups of 2-3 at a time, come to your door or sit outside your house waiting until you come home so they can ambush you. And I do mean day after day literally. And sometimesmultiple Orgs wanting money on the same day, standing at the
doorstep. I don’t think, being on the “celeb” lines, that you have been subjected to multiple 5-7 hour reg cycles that seem more like
Nazi extortion sessions than anything else. Or ambush sec checks and rollbacks because you resisted coming in for the 7th “briefing”
in as many months. I have a friend on the “celeb list” and he is shocked to hear what us “normal” group members have to endure in
LA. Apparently the “celebs” are treated much differently.

And I’m guessing that the reason DM used you guys for this latest escapade is that you have been the privileged ones. You possibly have less BPC on the way things are lately. I can’t imagine many of my other OT friends in LA being willing to do his bidding at this time.

Marty is correct when he says the Church is dead. The Church that I joined in the 70s, which was full of hope and joy and freedom and
friendship and spiritual awakening is indeed dead. In it’s place is some kind of militant cult. Like Haydn James, I never thought I would use that word in regards to my Church. But I only use it in reference to the current structure, the current “Management.”

Scientology as a tech and philosophy for life will never die. There is too much truth there. I have always considered myself a pretty good Scientologist. I have made much case gain and I thank LRH from the bottom of my heart for all of the tech and for the OT levels and for giving me a much better life. I believe in LRH and I won’t desert him.

Michael, I’m sure you feel the same on that last point. Let me ask a favor of you. Please re-read the Creed of the Church in a new unit of time. And then please take a few minutes to read LRH’s brilliant PL “An Essay on Management,” especially the section “A True Group” and “Power.” It’s possible that these things will not impinge upon you as much as they did me or my spouse–assuming you’ve had a different recent Scn experience than a lot of us in
LA. But just maybe you have other friends who’ve had experiences similar to those I’ve mentioned. And maybe these couple of datums
from LRH will get you thinking about the current scene too.

And please, please don’t be afraid to read the reports of how things have been going for these SO members at Int. If you feel like it’s not o.k. to read reports from those who have been denied proper justice lines, then please re-read the Creed and think about it again.

And to DM: You are not my “Spiritual Leader.” LRH is. Your harassment of Mike and Marty is just more bullying. I’m sure we can expect the usual roundup of OTs in LA for more sec checking and Interrogatories after you read this post. But you can only cut our lines for so long. Let me leave you with a quote from LRH’s Essay
on Management (perhaps you should read it sometime yourself.)

“A true group must have a management which deals in affinity, reality and communication, and any group is totally within it’s rights, when a full and reasonable examination discloses management in fault of perverting or cutting ARC, of slaughtering, exiling or suspending that management. ARC is sacred.” –LRH

Think about it.

Meanwhile, you’ve lost another couple of OTs. Happy birthday.


Marty, it makes sense to me when you say the “Church is dead”.

For me the Church is also dead. In the sense that it’s not what it used to be & it’s definitely not what I think LRH wanted it to be. I think it’s so infected with enforcement, $$$ hungry stat push, too little too late franticness, … that I’m not sure those things can ever be straighten out.

Sure the structure (AOs, Orgs, Missions, Applied Scholastics groups,…) is their but the management mentality & how they treat people that don’t toe the line (invals, punishments, sec checks, shunning,…) is rotten to the core in my opinion. A friendly Church where people regain their own self-determinism doesn’t exist anymore. If you don’t toe the company line you’re an enemy. It’s a pretty sad state of affair. Any Organization that has members that have dedicated years of their lives to the cause but decide to stop attending Events & visiting the Church because of the constant pressure & overall unfriendly atmosphere if you don’t do what they want you to do, is not very healthy. If any of you ever felt that way from time to time, I’m sure you know by now that you were not the only one.

All these great programs (CCHR, Criminon, Narconon, TWTH, YFHR, VMs…) are just a smoke screen in my opinion. They treat the criminals at Criminon better than they treat their upstat members that donate lots of $ & contribute lots of time if those members don’t give all the $ & time the Church thinks those members should give. Anybody with a ounce of self-determinism can see how many Human Rights & WTH precepts the Church is violating. This whole VM thing about “I can talk to anybody for you about anything” is BS. They encourage their members to disconnect & shun family members & friends. They discourage (forbid) their members to find out what is being said in the news & internet about their Church. Take a good look & you’ll find tons of incidences where the Church inhibits and/or enforces communication. Is that what LRH teaches?

So in that sense, for me, the Church is dead. It doesn’t apply what it teaches & that’s why it’s not succeeding in my opinion. Oh true, it has all these new buildings & more people joining staff (at least it appears this way) but where’s the public? My guess is that they have more staff than public attending events these days. Actually probably mostly staff at least here at my local Org. They have to punish & threaten, eval & inval to get the public to participate on a regular basis. They threaten people with the loss of their eternity & comm lines. These days it’s safer to quietly & silently withdraw than to try to communicate when things don’t make sense to you or if you see things that are violating LRH policies. If you question anything, you get instantly punished.

I agree Marty, the Church is dead!

-Free To Think

222 responses to “The church is dead. Long live Scientology

  1. You are right! It’s dead! DM has worked very hard at it with extreme success! But the sun will never set on scientology! It’ll set on Miscavige that’s for sure.

  2. The Church is dead. It is true, absolutely no write-up will change anything but your ability to speak the truth. This will be confirmed by the number of hours you will be getting sec-checked. This is not freedom. Start walking.

    Knowing what you know can never be taken away from you. No one can threaten your eternity.

    My God people stand up and look!

  3. What a beautiful post! You have clearly relayed the essense of what I feel as a Scientologist who no longer supports the church.

    I am happy to know that the opinion leaders are reading these posts and the truth is impinging. Thank you for stepping up…and communicating.

  4. To DW and Free to Think: Thank you for speaking for many. There is nothing to disagree with in anything you have said here. What DW observes happening in LA is certainly happening in exactly the same way in the outlying Conts too.

    It is a tragedy, but true that the Church as we knew it is dead. Only fringe extremists are celebrating the fact but as I noted in the last post, it is a bittersweet observation.

    Acknowledging the obvious truth of it, one can move on in constructive ways, as many here are already doing, (and Geir Isene deserves a special mention IMHO for incredible initiatives in the rebuilding program; also Dan Koon for seriously intelligent ideas).

    The final net result could – thanks to many fine people contributing here – be a network or some sort of organistion that enables real Scientology to be delivered to many, where people are allowed to receive auditing and training in a stress-free environment, allowed to have wins and gains, free from pressure and hassle, and where “Scientology” is not a dirty word any more, with its associations with the CofS as currently.

  5. In 1992 I was with a friend who was (and still is) a very important W.I.S.E. player internationally. Perhaps one of the most important one. He was upset because he had been shown evidence that the OCA copyright was the property of Julia Lewis Salmen (as per an LRH letter) and she had sold it to Tom Voltz. He had evidence in his hand and he was upset: “what should I do now?” he asked me. In order to prevent any copyright battle the church had changed the OCA questions (and released a new OCA). He told me that he felt Tom Voltz was right.

    Back then, even if I wasn’t on staff anymore, I disagreed and I told him that, whatever ever happened, I would have stayed with the RTC. He decided to stay with WISE (perhaps my opinion wasn’t the only factor influencing him). Back then I did believe in the church and I did believe that “even if it seemed wrong, the church was doing much good and so it should have been supported regardless”.

    Today, 5 years into my sp declare, I think that even if it still manages to do some good, the church of scientology must be brought to its end, because the harm it does it is just too much.

    I am not just talking about the physical harm and dammage (deprieving people of their money, the hole, beatings, etc). I am talking about the psychological harm: enforcing and inhibiting affinity, reality and communication on its members.

    By doing that the church is depressing free theta in individuals, the same exact free theta that is actually saying to try to restore through auditing.

    The church of scientology as a philosophycal endeavour is dead. The good guys are leaving in the same way that theta escapes entheta at the moment of death.

    In an entheta environnement even people who once were very able and keen such as Guillame Lesevre are so thouroughly enturbulated that make one mistake after the other and act weird.

    We have gone past the tipping point. The church of scientology is crumbling in front of our very eyes and the reason is simple: entheta in it is much much more of theta. So any theta (reason) left gets just enturbulated and they go from one blunder to the other.


  6. The relationship the church has with its public is a parasitic one. The C of M is feeding off of its public/victims, sucking out every ounce of time and money that it can.

    I’m glad that more and more Scientologist are waking up to this fact, and are ceasing to feed the beast.

    Scientology as a religion and a philosophy will continue on as it should, but without the blood sucking torture of current management.

  7. When I made the decision that the C of S had gone squirrel and were no longer applying the spirit of policy/tech (they might be applying a sentence out of context) I started to treat Scientologists exactly the same as anyone else. If they were arrogant and condescending I called them on it. If their arguments didn’t make sense I called them on it. I was (I tried) polite but would not be cow-towed. It’s funny how much I was respected once I made this transition. I simply applied LRH PTS tech, became “slightly at cause” like you’re supposed to per the 10 August bulletin.

  8. Thank you for stepping forward and being a witness. Thank you for thinking free and speaking free and speaking honestly.

  9. Marty, DW & FreeToThink,

    I’ve been unable to post for a few days but keeping up my reading – Oh, yeah, baby! What an exciting few days.

    I was so moved by Jeff’s article on Leaving Scientology blog (Namaste, Gandhi) and when I heard Marty say “the Church is dead” – I jumped with a YES, by God, say it like it is. Push Michael’s confront – who’s blind? It is so OVER.

    These two comments today, express things just exactly, right where we are. More and more of us moving from the “stage” (where we’ve been trying to make the ‘show go on’) to the audience looking back at it incredulous horror as our perceptions clear. This really IS the Co$-by-DM-the-unequivocal-most-high-megalomaniac. The rotting skeletal shell of an organization that’s being discarded by those who are still spiritually alive and aware. DM’s/OSA’s resuscitation attempts are useless. She’s long dead, boys. Just take a whiff – the stink cannot be contained.

    And, we are free. Scientology lives!

  10. “Who is Zed?” – “Zed’s dead, baby. Zed’s dead.” (Pulp Fiction)

    R.I.P, Corporate Scientology.
    You went all the way from A to Zed.
    We’ll always remember you. 😦
    We loved you so much we couldn’t let that “body” encumber you from going to Target 2 after LRH.
    DM, please never hurry back. You have a lot to do at Target Two. Let us get this thing straighten out here for you. We can do it. Trust us.

  11. ILove2Lurk

    I’ve completed most of the auditing available today, a large chunk of auditor training (with very high delivery stats), and over 40 years of living with Scientology. Extremely well trained and processed, I’d say.

    I’ve been a loyal public for the most part and towed the line until the most recent decade passed.

    In the last ten years, I’ve done a ton of looking and listening, being very well connected to other OTs and the Internet, and sadly come up with the same conclusions. It’s just all too obvious.


    (It WAS a lot more fun and freeing in the 70’s, for sure.)

  12. “They threaten people with the loss of their eternity……. ”

    This one point alone held me in check and scared and teetering on the fence of doubt about the church situation for a long, long time.

    Eventually I realized that if I am by definition an eternal being, then my eternity is not at issue here. How can I lose where I already am? Impossible!! Impossible to lose a state you are already in….the journey is merely in waking up to that reality.

    So rest easier those who are feeling the effects of this particular threat. What these two public have written here is an indicator that even more change gonna come. It’s been a long, long time coming.

    I was born by the river
    In a little tent
    And just like the river
    I’ve been running ever since.

    It’s been a long, long time coming
    But I know a change gonna come
    Oh, yes it is

    It’s been too hard living
    But I’m afraid to die
    I don’t know what’s up there beyond the sky.

    It’s been a long, long time coming
    But I know a change gonna come
    Oh yes it will.

    Then I go to my brother
    And I say: Brother oh help me please, yeh.
    But he winds up knocking me
    Back down on my knees.

    There’s been times
    that I thought I wouldn’t last for long
    But now I think I’m able to carry on
    It’s been a long, long, time coming
    But I know a change is gonna come
    Yes it will……

  13. Impartial English Girl

    I have a question – if the church, in its current state ceases to be, and DM et al, go down (legally) for their misdeeds; what happens to all of the money they’ve wrung out of the innocent? Does it get returned to original “donors” (assuming these records are kept)? Put into a pot and divvied up amongst all those who claim? Or what? Just wondering…

  14. WH
    I think any “celeb” will tell you that the crush regging is not limited to “plebs”. The difference is that the “celebs” are given “special treatment” and the crush regging is done by the CO or the President’s Office while the victim is being told what an amazing big thetan he is. The “celeb” status lasts as long as you are being a good DM bot bot. Once the honeymoon period is over you are a nothing more than fair game (as are your kids, your closest friends and your family).
    Cathy True (OSA Superbot) – Word has gotten back to me that you think I’m being too noisy. Thank you for telling me what it is that bothers you. Watch this space. I’m just getting warmed up.

  15. bob Johnson

    Best post so far on this blog! Hip hip! I went so exterior you’d need a tractor beam to get me off the ceiling!

    I can totally relate to this post. I used to be an SO member, and if “tax riots on Planet Chug” mean anything to you, then you know what part of Int Mgmt I used to work for. After I left the SO, I was public for about 5 years, and even achieved the level of Patron with Honors (Dorkus Maximus). I personally know what “ambush reg cycles” are like in that the IAS will show up both unannounced and uninvited at 3 AM in the morning. When I was “IN”, I had no idea that the IAS was Miscavige’s slush fund. You were led to believe that there was always a fire to put out. Thus, the urgency. I now know it was a total scam. Unfortunately, I never was on the “celeb list” and didn’t get the ass polishing a full-fledged celeb like Tom Cruise would get.

    Well, in spite of the tech, there’s only so much BS one person can up with, and this is coming from somone who was in the SO for 6 years.

    BTW, I’m using “Bon Johnson” as a pseudonym as I’m not even declared and don’t want to be disconnected from certain people. It’s what the medical people call a “generic”.

  16. Virgil Samms

    One reason the Church is dead because it has made so many enemies – parishoners and staff who are not SPs who are declared SP for disagreeing, or blowing. Jay Hurwitz told me, when I tried to recover him, that he will never return to the Church because DM spit in his face. Jay wanted to know what kind of correction cycle was that? He said “If that’s what my Church is, I want nothing more to do with it.” Nice job Davy.

    I blew because I discovered there were no longer any safe terminals to talk to. Anything I said to anyone went straight to those who would use it against me. Therefore I clammed up. Someone would put me on the meter and I would say “f___ Off” and that would be the end of it. It is at this exact point where Scientology dies – no one can safely communicate. Scientology is all about the 2-terminal universe and once that is gone, the whole subject is finished – completely. Kaput. Sometimes I send Marty some comm on email and I wonder if he is going to chew my head off. You know what? He grants me beingness and actually takes time to find the correct ack to me. Every time this happens I get rehabilitated a little more.

    Another reason for the death is that the “Church” is behaving like an iron curtain bloc county whereas friends and neighbors are spying on friends and neighbors. WTF is that? Death to religion for sure.

    Soneone who recently disconnected from me told me she would never read Marty’s Blog because (and she is currently on OT 7) that if she goes on to Marty’s blog – just once – she will never be allowed on OT sections again this lifetime. This is what she was told at FSO. Another reason for the fact that the Church is dead – the “crack” of the door opening just slammed shut and is welded closed. Also LRH said that in order to evaluate anything one must have a datum of comparable magnitude. That means OTs are not allowed to evaluate their church or even what is going on around them. No eval = death.

    I could go on with lists of reasons why the current Church is dead. DM has enough knowledge of the subject to kill the essence of the Church; the basics, the love that it creates, the aliveness it instills.

    ML Virg

  17. martyrathbun09

    Mickey, I’ve listened to it hundreds of times in the past two years. Thank you.

  18. Freetothink

    You’re right! It is confirmed by the amount of hrs of sec-ckecking.

    As an OT, when 2/3 of your “advanced program” (after “you’re not clear” R-Factor) is spent on sec-checking, something is seriously wrong. Especially when you’re a very upstat member of the group, contributing lots of $ & hours to the cause. Pretty much your only crimes are not toeing the company line & writing many reports on the outpoints you obsverve.

    Not saying this person was a Saint by any means. Who amongst us are?! This person had been on VII for yrs so obviously had already been put through the ringer before even being allowed on the Level. So obvioulsly was ethical enough to be on VII. But this person was not being the robot they wanted he/she to be since he/she was writing reports on COB & the landlord office.

    Thanks god this person has now woken up & is safe & free!

  19. It does my thetan heart good to read posts like this.

    It totally debunks the line that only “disaffected people with overts” are in the independent field.

    I am sure we are not all angels (I know I am not), but at least we are free to practice and handle our lives without having to support a private real estate empire of empty buildings and altered tech.

    I honestly believe that if Scientology is to survive, it will be in the independent field that it will ultimately make its largest inroads in the coming decade.

    It is clear that the cream of the LRH trained administrators and auditors are there. And more are clearly on the way.


  20. Yes Virgil, beautifully stated!

  21. Marty, from the critics’ point of view, the Death of CoS (Miscavigology) began in 2005 with Tom Cruise’s appearance on Oprah and Matt Lauer’s televisions shows.

    Critics could not have been handed a better gift than Tom Cruise’s efforts to force Miscavigology on Culture. Tom Cruise was clearly in DM’s valence and was was radicalized and angry. Indeed, Tom Cruise had gone massively out PR and said this in a 2004 interview with Rolling Stone magazine:

    “Some people, well, if they don’t like Scientology, well, then, fuck you. Really. Fuck you. Period.”

    That is DM talking. Tom Cruise was never like that until after DM got his hooks into him. Tom Cruise was unfailingly polite in interviews and in public until DM. Many critics saw that Tom had fallen into DM’s valence. Some of us are former CoS members who left long ago. We know what Scientology can do when misused on people. Many of us still have family or friends inside of CoS. We are concerned for them just like the Independents are concerned for their loved ones who are still in the C of M.

    IMO, the leaked Tom Cruise “Go to Guns” video was yet more proof that Tom was promoting “Radicalized Miscavigology” while calling it Scientology.

    IMO, DM’s $100,000+ birthday party for Tom on The Freewinds was part of DM’s campaign to keep Tom onboard with Miscavigology.

    I did a post in 2006 called ” It’s a David Miscavige World in Scientology” over at OCMB:

    Marty, I invite Independents to go look at my 2006 post in order to see what Miscavigology looked like to critics in 2006. When I did this post, I was receiving plenty of weekly mail from CoS. All I did was scan and upload broad public issue pictures from 2004-2006 to show how DM was glorifying himself at events and in CoS PR.

    CoS is dead. From my point of view, it spiritually died in late 2008. There are many indicators for why I cite this time period. The outward forms of CoS will continue on based upon institutional momentum, but the Energy left CoS in 2008.


  22. martyrathbun09

    J Swift, You do not know how closely we are tracking. Wait till you see my next post.

  23. In case you’ve not yet figured out, the non clear R-Factor is a DM’s blanket squirrel C/Sing. If you need any assistance about it let me know.

  24. Free To Think,

    As you know, I know exactly what you’ve been through to arrive at the comments you’ve made above.

    You and your 2D have been massively helpful opinion leaders in your area for many years.

    You have donated a ton of your personal income and literally thousands of hours to your church, leading the way for others to follow, in many cases.

    And when you began respectfully asking questions, I witnessed some of the nasty, threatening responses, in writing, that you received.

    And now, as a result of DM’s insanity trickling down via the “ethics” terminals and even the org staff, you are out of the church.

    You are being smeared. Black PR’d. As is your 2D.

    Shame on all those trained, veteran Scientologists we know, who would not seriously question the fact that you both have walked away!

    The fact that this can even occur means that DM is a full blown, antisocial SP. Period.

    It also means that DM has indeed overpowered LRH because all the training on PTS/SP tech is being bypassed or ignored by so many who should absolutely know better!

    As a generalization, they are collectively in TREASON as Scientologists and even as human beings!

    I have no sympathy for them. We’ve all drank the koolaid, yes, but once we began hearing even a whisper of doubt regarding DM, we took the personal risk of LOOKING and FINDING OUT. Those in Treason refuse to do so! And they’ve had many chances by now.

    Anyone who has known you guys well, over many years, should be very uneasy in their stomachs right now because you guys are the white hats and your field knows this!

    And now, all of your OT horsepower, along with your 2D’s, is being used to expose this SP for what he is.

    As a thetan, DM is (hate to say it), basically good.

    And so he is undoubtedly attempting to stop himself at a core level. Thus all the mistakes he is making. Thus the Michael Doven’s and the Tommy Davis’ and all the other robots he sends to do his arrogant, insane bidding.

    But, too many of us recognize that DM thinks this whole thing is purely about HIMSELF. It’s a movie, written about him. We are merely stage props.

    But we “stage props” are going to blindside the “main actor” quite soon.

    Keep up the fight Free To Think!

    Idle Org

  25. I went through the same emotions and cognitions after I graduated from the Ethics Specialist course in 2000 and then quietly disconnected and never returned. Changed my address, city, phone numbers. It worked.

  26. If I can tell my view about it, it’s an irrelevant question at this stage, I couldn’t care less.

  27. Freedom Fighter

    The sun will never set on Scientology, but it has long since set on the church. The church has been turned into a tool of extortion, manipulation, and totalitarianism. One only needs to observe what’s happening around him to see that this is true.

    Instead of “A civilization without insanity, without criminals and without war, where the able can prosper and honest beings can have rights, and where man is free to rise to greater heights”, the church has become the antithesis of everything LRH intended Scientology to be. Insanity abounds, honest beings are pursecuted, and one is beaten down at every turn.

    But just as the sun never sets on Scientology, so too does it never set on those of us whose purpose remains to improve our lives and the lives of others. DM may be able to destroy our church, but he will never take away the true spirit of Scientology. That spirit is truth. Truth never dies.

    Truth also never rests and will be the long arm of justice that will come back to bite DM in the end.

  28. Sam — just for clarity — DW wrote the terrific post above, not me WH (Windhorse) 🙂

    Isn’t it nice though when OSA tips their hand – now we really know how to bug them.

    Go Sam.

    (btw — in HS, some called me Sam – always loved that for a girl).


  29. “The C of M is feeding off of its public/victims, sucking out every ounce of time and money that it can.”

    I agree with this … and I would not even be surprised if the international income and Flag stats were up (along with “square footage” stats), because of all the crush regging. These are “stat push” stats.

    But when it comes to bringing in new people and truly expanding the Church with real ARC, and improving its public image … those stats have crashed miserably. And it’s likely been this way for 10-15 years (if not longer). In my opinion, this is ultimately due to:

    (a) Out-ethics upper management and mistreatment of Staff, Sea Org and Public for the last 30 years, now coming back to bite the Church;

    (b) Not being able to handle and answer the attacks truthfully because many of the criticisms now are in actual fact TRUE (the so-called “attackers” are in fact whistle-blowers);

    (c) All of this taking place out in the open for all to see, because of upper management’s (DM’s) suppression of any attempts at improvement internally, and his general inability to get his own ethics in.

    Until that suppression and out-ethics gets handled, the situation will only get worse.

    To DM: The situation you have created is ten times worse than what happened with Mary Sue in the late 1970s. Despite the GO debacle, the Church still had the support of the broad public that recognized that it was being treated unfairly. In your case, the broad public despises you. And it’s because you have proven yourself to be truly a despicable person. The public sees through your ridiculous attempts at PRing yourself.

    Step down now and come clean, before you end up in jail or worse, and hurt others along the way.

  30. While I will never have it in me to celebrate the collapse of the church of scientology, I do know it is unlikely I am going to mourn it.

  31. Just a little advise for those Scientologists
    either staff or public but still ‘in’. NOW is
    the time to jump ship. Its sinking. You will
    not drown. It is NEVER too late to do the
    right thing.

  32. Dear Free to Think,

    Please check out new religion scholar’s James R. Lewis’ survey, and please fill it out, if you can stomach all the questions.

    I advise anyone else who wishes to fill it out likewise. It‘s a start, and people can email Lewis to advise on better questions (Lewis edited the recent “Scientology“ anthology by Oxford Univ Press, 2009 available on

    As imperfect as this survey is, it is a start. I urge people to think wider, try to help scholars understand Scientology history, and I urge people to write their own books, even if only put on the internet as blog sites. Particularly, I hope people give MORE context to all the controversial moments in Scientology’s and LRH’s history. Firsthand info, just please communicate it.

    I think whoever is going to try to take responsibility for the future of Scientology has to think of what would LRH do, but also look at history, compare to other “new religions” or other similar groups, and think of how to modify Scientology.

    Obviously, DM, all agree, is not doing what LRH would do.

    I think LRH would NOT just throw AWAY all his years of work putting the Sea Org echelons there.

    I think rather were he here, DM would be either gone or retired to some lower position.

    I’ve read extensively, and rhetorical gamesmanship is part of the first stages us ex members who get up to speaking about the movement and their lives, go through.

    All the rhetorical gamesmanship does NOT change the actual operative currents that go on within ANY group, as it rolls forward.

    I urge ALL to read a hell of a lot more, those who really are going to change the future of this movement.

    A lot of existing people are still making official Scientology what it is.

    I prefer all who love and want to do the LRH tech to reconcile, but that’s only my belief, and although I am a Scientologist, I do believe LRH would wish people who love his tech to reconcile at some distant date, also.

    I agree with some ex Sea Org members like Russ Williams (longterm LRH Senior C/S Int compilations unit staffer), that they are waiting to see what happens at the top, before “going back” to the official church. I can’t ever go back, I don’t believe in thetans nor do I believe in the more complicated spiritual troubles that are dealt with on the OT levels.

    I believe all Scientologists should be free to discuss the future of Scientology, but people who can relay accurately LRH’s final years of strategic intentions, PLEASE relay that info, since those writings are NOT in the public domain, and only in people’s heads, some people have read those private LRH traffic orders/advices hundreds of times, been M-9ed on that traffic dozens of times, so that info is IN their heads STILL!

    There are a lot of good ideas, but to me, square zero is taking into consideration WHAT LRH said to do, and seeing WHAT from what LRH wrote, is the best way forward.

    DM’s downside is he is NOT pushing LRH.

    When the Broekers were public for a few years, people will recall that the Broekers at least pushed Source, and the events of those few years, lots of secret LRH’s final years “advices/orders” leaked out in promo and at events!

    At least the Broekers were more on Source, even if they were incompetent as church bureaucrats.

    I completely believe LRH would NOT throw out the Sea Org nor the management echelons, he‘d clean house. I‘d say that LRH would likely be too dark in dealing with management, and rather than management has to be, dare I say, more “worker oriented“, namely give the fucking Sea Org members and all the staffers of all echelons MORE rewards and chances to have somewhat normal 8 dynamics.

    LRH was pretty blind to how bad things were for staff, who dared not complain to him about their conditions, and he was prone to accept their PR to him about how they put up with and enjoyed their austere (deprived) Sea Org and staff lives.

    LRH’s last years of traffic to ASI staff, though, anyone could see, were this traffic in the public domain, that LRH wished his staff to be showered in rewards!!!! (Another reason, that secretly, in DM’s mind, he showers himself with the rewards he greedily takes.)

    From all my study since leaving Scientology, to me it looks like new religion scholars who study historical currents in new religion history, and people who study cults, have the best potential to predict Scientology’s future, if they are given enough raw info, and if they take the time to read this raw info.

    Scientology’s administrative setup need NOT be a cult. I agree it is to many degrees right now.

    But it CAN revert to all Sea Org staff really getting their 2 ½ hour daily study, getting liberties every other week (and in 1976 LRH wrote a very little known dispatch to the FSO that the FSO should think in terms of someday having each Saturday off, and then Sunday off in addition—thus a 2 day weekend off—if the Sea Org member’s stats are up), so even in the glowing days of the early half of 1976 at Flag/Clearwater, LRH gave REWARDS.

    The key policies out right now with Miscavige are NO rewards. It’s all control and punishment in complete violation of “Ethics Presence”, where ARC has to be the balancing part of the leader’s ethics presence. He’s got them on schedules making Int Base a cult (pending info from John Brousseau who I am sure will confirm things have not changed much since Marty and Mike Rinder and others departed the Int Base). Misacavige isn’t allowing the Exec Strata and WDC and CMO Int to be manned up.

    DM’s ARC dried up over the years, but LRH’s ARC dried up so many times himself, when an honest historical study of different periods of Scientology/Sea Org history is done also. But the imperfections of LRH, like Ken Urquhart has noted, is something that people who aspire to absorb Hubbard in full, have to accept. To me it takes outside world understanding, because LRH himself had his blindspots, and whomever is going to really DO the whole movement better than LRH, while have to see outside of LRH’s flaws and make decisions to outstep LRH’s mistakes.

    I don’t think were LRH alive though, that he’d want the whole Sea Org structure to wither and shatter though.

    But if that is what happens, due to no one being able to take on DM and the mess, then that is as it may turn out.

    Hell, if I were there, I’d go on a world tour and recruit all you OT 8s for the Sea Org, just like Int Management has tried for years.

    And I’d just wholesale make the top ranks NOT a cult atmosphere.

    And if enough of you OT 8s really get up the courage, maybe you should get a REAL briefing of LRH’s final years of traffic, FOR REAL.

    And see what the top managers were left with.

    That to me is SQUARE ZERO to a realistic future.

    If then, after the full LRH wealth of final years writings are looked at, and you decide to be Scientology field auditors unfettered by the official movement, so be it also.

    I think, the religious scholars one for one KNOW, that the official movement will drag on, no matter what. That is the fate of these groups.

    I’ll admit that the Dan Koon (Joe Howard) prediction of Scientology on the internet, free for everyone, is likely the modern future.

    How LRH would deal with all the materials being on the internet, is a big problem. I’m not sure what he’d do on that score. He was pretty set on having the tech as his, on which to continue to receive remuneration, which he did, via ASI, gathering royalties and with all the contracts that the Scientology organizations sign to lease/use his “LRH properties”, which is how LRH legally, in the end, received remuneration for all “his” “properties.”

    Someday, I wish we could have a convention, and have all of the former still alive big cheeses, and have ALL of LRH’s final years of traffic on tables, sorted by date, and let the former last 40 years of leadership be interviewed, give full context to the events that surrounded the final years of LRH traffic, and dig up all the details.

    And record it all for posterity.

    There are a LOT of LRH admin policies that a more benign group of non asshole valanced Sea Org top ranks people COULD be applying.

    The whole GAT fiasco, that’s been dissected, Joe Howard’s (Dan Koon’s) assessment is essentially the evaluation that tells what to do there.

    I honestly think ALL the ex big cheeze Sea Org top ranks Int Base staff, and earlier big cheeses who left and didn’t look back (taking with them what they love and still of LRH’s) have the GREATEST goddamn potential to FIX this whole mess.

    I have been waiting for the ex big cheeses to get through their rhetorical gamesmanship, and really start learning what other religions and similar groups have done in history.

    Scientology has got a current reputation problem.

    Longer range, I hope people evolve out of the blame DM gamesmanship, and start dealing with the big real internal problems.

    Otherwise, from a scholars’ view, they are waiting right now to see if this new rash of independence is going to be BIGGER or smaller than the 1982-85 massive defections. Right now, still, the 1982-85 mass defections were bigger.

    The “Individuation” tape is out on DM, no one can touch him to cram him nor audit him, and that’s the conundrum.

    The LRH policy “What would Ron do?” is the solution.

    I am so happy, and thankful Marty and Mike Rinder and Steve Hall and others are dialoguing.

    I only caution that rhetorical gamesmanship is NOT going to change history, but getting DM to lighten up, or getting DM to vamoose, and getting Int Management doing the most benign of the last decade of policies and orders LRH last left for the movement IS the most sane way forward, in my opinion, for all who care.

    Living the hell that life descended to at the Int Base, in looking at people who I looked up to and respected for decades, today, I honestly comparing their utterances and burned out feelings in hindsight, I, even though I am NOT a Scientologist, ONLY revert to “What would LRH do?”

    He sure as fucking hell would NOT trash his whole decades long creation.

    Why I don’t support Scientology, I don’t write here, only because it is so diametrically opposed to Scientologists beliefs.

    But I do think that Scientology is LRH.

    And I think LRH would NOT just throw out the Sea Org management echelons.

    He might change them around, but he wouldn’t just toss it all out.

    I think it will take some years for educating some persons on LRH’s last 10 years of full writings, and train up some people, like some OT 8s who are willing to just give up their upper middle class or upper class lives, and go dedicate themselves to DOING WHAT LRH said in LRH’s final 10 years of final strategic orders to the movement.

    That DM needs to somehow let this happen, or DM needs to retire himself, or whatever suitable end comes to DM, fine.

    But a LOT of people need to grow up and take on what LRH last suggested.

    And I hope it is people from OUTSIDE the Sea Org, like people who are decades long Scientologists, who are humble enough to spend the 2-5 years reading and studying ALL of the LRH traffic the final 10-15 years of LRH’s life, in context, and sorting out what the hell to do.

    LRH left a shitload of writings, the ASI advices, all the Int level advices, and even the final years of traffic in the late 1970s to the Commodore’s Aides and Flag Bureaux staffs.

    I said this is all a long shot, when I was interviewed, on the future of the movement.

    If I could believe in thetans and body thetans, I could participate. But I can’t sell what I don’t believe.

    But I hope Scientologists figure it out so they don’t suffer so much.

    (If you want to waste your time and read my disagreements with Scientology, waste your time here: )

    One huge advantage of the ex official Scientologists are they DON’T seem to be applying any of the
    rightly hated Scientology policy (“hardsell” is NOT DM, it’s LRH, and OSA Network Order 15 is NOT DM, it is LRH).

    I think this dialogue here on Marty’s site and Steve Hall’s site is priceless.

    Thankyou so much for joining.

    I hope there is MORE sharing of LRH’s final years of strategic ideas, and overcoming DM’s years of suppression, but also whomever does rise up to deal with DM, and if they DO start to fix up management, that they also be sure to honestly deal with the valid criticism against LRH’s ideas that are at the root of some of Scientology’s inherent problems.

    Thank god for the internet, and at least SOME people having their Grade 0’s in.

    thank you for speaking up.

    Please fill out the James R. Lewis survey (Lewis has a checkered history as a “scholar”, but I feel any scholar trying to do anything to study Scientology is good, and I try to help whichever one asks for help).

    Chuck Beatty
    ex Sea Org, 1975-2003

  33. I am “dis-affected.”

    I am dis-affected with the way dedicate Sea Org members have been off-loaded after years of service to the “Church”.

    I am dis-affected with the way female staff members have been co-erced into aborting pregnancies “as the greatest good.”

    I am dis-affected with not just the lack of justice in Corporate Scientology, but the INJUSTICES wreaked instead.

    I am dis-affected with a self-styled “Pope” who never gave anyone case gain, and apparently never had any either.

    I am dis-affected with the sundering of familial ties.

    I am dis-affected with the lip service given the Creed, but the heavy ethics given if you should DARE to walk the walk.

    I am dis-affected with the financial irregularities of Int Management, and the perversion of finances at Org level.

    I am dis-affected with the management style of “shoot first, maybe we will ask questions later.”

    I am saddened by the unwillingness of supposed Scientologists to LOOK.

    Humanity deserves another chance at a better day in the sun. And those that are working in that direction, not matter their creed or constituion, are my friends.

    The church exists in my words and deeds, and the words and deeds of my friends. For it is a Church of Life. Not of buildings and donation levels.

    It exists in you, too.



  34. Yes, the church is dead. And, Dennis Erlich — without correction from any of us — takes credit for that all the time.

    Is he right?

  35. J Swift, As a card-carrying, Church defending public until about Oct-2009, I couldn’t agree with you more. When I saw that Tom Cruise video at one of the Scn events in 2004, I remembered thinking to myself — “please, please don’t ever let this video get broadly distributed”.

    And then Cruise went over the top.

    He started parroting the extremist anti-psych nonsense, attacking “all psychs”, Brooke Shields and Matt Lauer. And there was no turning back.

    Then, in 2008, when Cruise’s above “I’m the best Scientologist that ever was” video hit the Internet and the airwaves, the end was spelled.

    When I found out later that it was Miscavige that edited that Cruise video and had earlier gotten his crazy embedded into Cruise, it all made sense.

    When it became clear that Miscavige was personally involved (if not responsible) for every other CoS mis-management and PR mis-step — from mis-handling mission holders in the early 80s, to mis-handling the advent of the Internet in the mid-90s, to personally overseeing the C/Sing of Lisa McPherson, to mis-handling (misusing) every aspect of Tom Cruise’s blowout wins in the early ’00s, to now where he is in desperately trying to PR the Church public — there was no question who the Who was in all of this.

    You shall know them by the “broad consequences of their acts”, as LRH said.

    “Importance and ability or wish to rise above others are likewise not indexes of the [suppressive person]. When they do become important or rise, they are, however, rather visible by the broad consequences of their acts.”
    — Intro to Scientology Ethics

    And that couldn’t be more clear today as we survey the broad consequences of Miscavige’s rise to power in Scientology.

  36. “I have no sympathy for them”

    Than let me as an Anon have that sympathy for them. The people who are still in who have not done grave atrocities to their fellow human beings have my symphaty and have untill 2011 to wake up or untill DM is dethroned. After that all bets are of.

    “2010 is the year we end the fight”

    Anonymous (around newyears)

  37. martyrathbun09

    Right on Margaret.

  38. Idle Org — I must agree with Cat Daddy but further with no deadline …

    If we start to have independents who are in group A — those that left pre XYZ date, then another group B, who weren’t quite with it but DID leave. then group C who clawed their way out of Int ad infinitum

    we are going to REBUILD a hierarchy of arrogance.

    Let’s be different and welcome EVEN the last man/woman who walks out of that hell hole called the C of M …

    They are expecting no less of us, ultimately.


  39. you’re so right notsaware !
    real scientology is much more powerful than any money.
    you don’t have to pay a cent to apply it and have wins .

  40. Brilliant post, Marty! Straight away I could see this one was going to produce a lot of TA with people giving their stories, and it’s happening already.

    I don’t like anonymity for anonymity’s sake, I prefer it when folks know who I am. I don’t have any business deals with Scientologists and the church has nothing I want so there no reason for me to not stand up and be counted. Here goes.

    My name is Alan McKinnon, I hail from the step-child continent of Africa – Johannesburg, South Africa, actually. In the greater Scientology universe I’m no-one special, just another guy who hasn’t been around for years. On the net I go my the nic of splog – snarky pedantic lazy old git; it’s an in-joke so don’t take it seriously! It comes from my job as a Unix sysadmin and there’s a fine tradition of how we are supposed to act.

    I joined staff in Pretoria in 86 and left in 93. In between I joined the SO and was the Flag Rep for Pretoria the entire time. I wasn’t a good Flag Rep at all and my stats sucked. There’s lots more detail of course but none of it is important.

    I’ve had my share of good tech and out-tech and even some eval thrown in just for good measure. Down here at the bottom of Africa we tend to be forgotten about, so I never got to have IAS regges show up at 3AM. What I did get is to be able to read all the basic books – the old ones. The tech in those books works for me, so I use it all the time, especially TRs and comm. I don’t have an expressable opinion on anything from the Clearing Course and higher as I haven’t done them, but everything lower than that that in freely available books and tapes makes complete sense and works for me.

    I haven’t been a parishioner in any real sense for at least 8 years, but it’s probably much longer. I did buy a set of Basics and Tapes in 2008, but somehow never quite got round to reading any of them…. in retrospect, that’s a good thing. If musical chairs has been removed as a High Crime from the Ethics Book, then I know I can’t trust anything else in the set.

    I’m now just a regular guy who read some stuff in books, found that it works, and uses it to make life better for myself and those near me. By day I help to make the internet work for an entire country, by evening I have a sane life with a family – one girlfriend, one stepdaughter and one son who lives with his mom. And I’m certain that’s what LRH hoped people would do his books when he wrote them.

  41. Margaret: “When it became clear that Miscavige was personally involved (if not responsible) for every other CoS mis-management and PR mis-step…..”

    Marty, didn’t you state somewhere in one of Truth Rundown interviews that one day you realized each and every legal situation the church was or had been tangled up in stemmed directly from DM’s decisions and actions? There was no outside entity to “blame” for their PR or legal scenes, but rolled back, it turned out to be DM himself?

    And wasn’t it right then you decided to remove yourself from the game, if not physically, then at least in your mind?

    If this is true, perhaps this datum alone is worth imparting in conversations with both “celebs” and “plebs” alike.

  42. I’m not much a drinker these days but tonight I think I’ll raise a glass in a toast to you all and LRH. And when I raise that glass I think I’ll note all too clearly that it is half full and not half empty, because there is much cause to be cheery.

    After all, LRH worked for most of his lifetime to give us a technology with which we could reverse the swindling spiral — and he pulled it off. Sure it’s a serious impediment that Miscavige hijacked the church but I believe a very good friend of mine was right when he asked me: “how do you know LRH wouldn’t just expect us to sort out this mess?”

    I think LRH would expect that, if he were here I think he would say “boys and girls, I gave you the tech and you’ve got each other, now go to work, because if you can’t sort out a problem like Miscavige what hope do you have?”

    Sure organizational Scientology is a shambles, it has been shattered and lies in ruins, but I see the future and it is very, very bright simply because we have the tech and we have each other – people who are willing to apply that tech solely for the benefit of its recipient just as it was designed — and that’s all we’ll ever really need to make things go right.

    It’s a great feeling to know the future is bright, that Scientology will always be available to help people and that together, all of us, will make sure it stays that way.

    I’m raising my half full glass to you all.

    The church is dead, long live Scientology!

  43. Chuck —

    I appreciate your post; however, I just don’t agree.

    You base your post on the assumption that dm has kept complete corporate control and when he is deposed, the structure can be rebuilt and should be (with plenty of modifications, I grant you)

    WHAT IF — others, more well connected and politically powerful actually own the c of s?

    and dm was just allowed to look like the top?

    When dm becomes too much of a liability — a receivership will be declared. The books will be gone over and SURPRISE — the CofM is bankrupt (the $$ was all funneled to the bigwigs ages ago) …

    Have NO idea if this is true — BUT — it’s a possibility.

    In any case — the CHURCH is DEAD.

    Can’t be revived.

    Scientology however is alive in the hearts and souls of hundreds of thousands who have had even one win since 1950. Those people WILL find where scientology is being offered and they will go there.

    And from there — don’t know but it won’t die. Not now.
    (was very close but it won’t die)


  44. Freetothink

    Paolo, I couldn’t agree more with this comment you made:

    ” I am talking about the psychological harm: enforcing and inhibiting affinity, reality and communication on its members.

    By doing that the church is depressing free theta in individuals, the same exact free theta that is actually saying to try to restore through auditing.”

    This is one of the huge cognition I had as I started opening my eyes & it was a major turning point for me. My Church had for many years enforced & inhibit affinity, reality & communication on it’s members & even society at large!!! “you must, you can’t,…” is killing self-determinism. One of the major things we were trying to resolved in Scientology!!! I had fought many times for that very principle & I was now realizing that my Church was guilty of doing it all along right under my nose & I had been totally blind to it 😦 Took me many days to recover from that realization.

    LRH says the following in Book two, chapter seven of Science of Survival:

    “An individual who has been subjected to enforced affinity, reality and communication has an interrupted self-determinism. …

    The inhibition of affinity, communication and reality is no less serious than their enforcement”

    Originally, when I studied this on Level A & later again on the Basics it was huge for me. I was seeing this as the major why at the core of society’s problems. Working at the time several hrs/week with economically & socially challenged families & seeing how they were enforcing/inhibiting ARC on each other constantly & the results of it, convinced me that if we could educate people enough on this it would resolved so many societal problems.

    It’s still true for me that that some of the dwindling spiral could be reverted if more people would stop enforcing/inhibiting ARC.

    So after recovering from the shock tha my Church was violating this very basic principle, I could not in good conscience continue supporting it. This and many other things lead to my official resignation.

    Thank you Marty, Jeff, Mike, Amy, Steve & all independants for opening my eyes.

  45. Don’t feel bad about walking away. Hubbard hasn’t gone there since the 1980’s.

  46. Freetothink

    You say: “As a thetan, DM is (hate to say it), basically good. And so he is undoubtedly attempting to stop himself at a core level.”

    I think releasing the Basics was part of that process. I think I’m not alone when I say that I had many wins on the Basics not the lease of which was waking me up to the fact that LRH had develop lots of wonderful tools that were not being used at all currently in the Church. It became more & more of a glaring outpoint as I moved along on the Books & Lectures.

    Thanks for your kind words IO. You’re a wonderful person yourself. Sending you a big hug!

  47. AlexMetheny

    Hi Sam,

    You coined a new term Super-bot, love it!!

    I think I might work on an “independant dictionary.”

    Fear-bot: A person acting as a robot through intense fear of the CofM.
    DM-bot: A person slavishly following the dictates of DM in a robotic idiotic fashion.
    Zom-bot: A zombie like creature that is robotic and unthinking as the undead.
    Super-bot: A stellar robot who is dramatizing robotic behavior with great amplitude. A being that is exhibiting almost every defintion of treasonous behaviour with total disregard to reason.


  48. Excellent posts, excellent. It is great to see that we are not alone in the observation of these outpoints (plus the help to see all of the ones we didn’t notice or not-ised.)

    I am looking forward to the time where we can communicate openly to all and not have it result in getting called into the Org, etc. We have connections which will suffer if we get too loud at the moment.

    The comm on these blogs is tantamount to the freedom once experienced when learning about Scientology for the first time.


  49. Yes, jump now. Swim away from the imminent whirlpool.

  50. AlexMetheny

    Hi Chuck Beatty,

    I’m curious. You sound like a smart guy and you say a lot of good things.

    I just don’t understand why you seem to want the church reformed so badly when you are not a Scientologist. I mean it is ok with me, I just don’t fully understand your motivation. As I said…just curious.


  51. It is important to remember that the individuals and groups who would act against beings are those who want to make nothing of everyone and the psysical universe. I will celebrate when these sub devils go out of existence as beings.
    The Truth Shines.

  52. To give another example of how DM has sabotaged case gain and LRH tech, I will tell you of a time when I was sharing a ride with another Scientologist in L.A. to the airport from the Advanced Org there.

    He told me a heart wrenching story for someone tech trained like myself, and it will probably even make sense why to a lot of you who aren’t.

    He was going back home to some far away state in the U.S., still in the MIDDLE of OT 3. He told me that he was taken off the level because he had mistakenly taken a couple of notes from the OT 3 pack, to be sure he wouldn’t forget them when he went in session. He at the time didn’t realize how this was not okay.

    When RTC found out about this, his eligibility for OT Levels was revoked, he was given a Committee Of Evidence, was ordered to pay for about $50,000 of sec checking (and he did), then after the sec checking was still not put back on the level but was told to return to his org and do the Ethics Specialist Course, PTS/SP Course, and auditor training.

    Meanwhile, he was in the middle of OT 3, completely unflat on the level. The man was visibly restimulated and shaken, and in his own shame, blame and regret cycle over it, having been thoroughly made wrong.

    What is particularly sinister to me about this is that that ANY note he could have taken is already broadly available on the Internet in original form. There was no security breach, it’s already all over the net.

  53. crashing upwards

    Lets hope so Marty.
    The sooner that the bottom is reached the sooner everyone can get refocused on actually applying those principles and practices in a sane envirorment with ARC, and without threats, delcares, social ostracism, money obsessions,etc.
    The sooner those delivering the tech and those recieving it operate in an envirorment full of the love, hope, excitment and wonder which we once had.
    A lot of posters are indicating various times when the church started to die. Well, I think it died for each of us depending on our personal situation. Beyond that, you can look at many “era’s” and specific actions on the way down, but it doesnt matter to me all that much. I wont be doing the eval.
    The collapse of the church at some level is a loss for everyone who identified with it during their involvment. Pretty much all of us. Any collapse is bitter-sweet.
    Those buildings and bank acounts and books will not disappear. What lies ahead at some point will be the mother of all re-orgs. And the sooner the better.
    There are many wonderful beings involved in the independent field. And those leading these efforts are indeed worthy of our admiration and support. I salute you all.

  54. Impartial English Girl

    Hi NOTSaware,
    OK, thank you. I fully understand that it’s irrelevant at this point – I was just wondering.

    It would be such a shame if those at the top were to get away with all the cash, leaving destitute those essentially good people who were duped and/or too fearful to speak out.

    I know I’m probably wrong, but I can envisage a situation where there are suddenly hundreds of folks with the rugs pulled from under them and no access to state support because they “voluntarily” parted with thousands of dollars.

    But perhaps it IS too early to be postulating on just now.

    Thank you for replying, anyway.

  55. EBE,
    Oh for gawdsake. Could we just not give Dennis E any acknowledgements whatsoever: good, bad, indifferent.

  56. Oops sorry WH I read so many of your posts that I got a mad circuit stuck – you’re being too noisy! LOL.
    I have it from a number of sources that OSA would like it just fine if we stay quiet and writing on Marty’s blog is a big no no. Good to know eh? 😀
    What’s HS?

  57. “Soneone who recently disconnected from me told me she would never read Marty’s Blog because (and she is currently on OT 7) that if she goes on to Marty’s blog – just once – she will never be allowed on OT sections again this lifetime. This is what she was told at FSO.”

    Interesting. Compare that with this LRH quote:

    “We of the Church believe:

    That all men have inalienable rights to think freely, to talk freely, to write freely their own opinions and to counter or utter or write upon the opinions of others;

    And that no agency less than God has the power to suspend or set aside these rights, overtly or covertly.”


    Apparently, DM thinks he is God.

  58. Cat Daddy,

    Good point! I actually caught that after I posted my comments.

    What I should add is that anyone who reaches out to me after the DM regime tumbles will be welcome with open arms…..IF…….they can present to me the Treason and Doubt formula from hell.

    Meaning, they would need to take full responsibility for realizing that they allowed themselves to be robots despite numerous heads-up from myself and others to at least LOOK.

    Before I fully accept anyone who participated in shunning myself and my indie friends, they absolutely must prove to themselves that they won’t fall into the robot trap ever again and that they will actually APPLY the tech from now on.


  59. There is no comprehension
    There is real isolation
    There is so much destruction
    What I want is a celebration

  60. In a sense, I think Dennis is right. Because of his innocent re-posting of documents (wondering what the cancel messages meant) the CofS canceled on ARS back in the day, he brought a ton of attention on the CofS, and when he was raided, a ton of more attention.

    Many people left as a result of that fallout, even if you ignore anything Dennis did after that point.

    I myself had been considering going back, completely not believing how badly some people were treated. After Feb 14, 1995 (the day after Dennis’s raid, when DA material about me was posted on ARS), there’s no way I’d ever go back.

    You might say it was a break in Reality.

  61. martyrathbun09

    Alex, good question.

  62. martyrathbun09

    WH, see my post tonight. I am with you.

  63. martyrathbun09


  64. “I think releasing the Basics was part of that process.”

    Nope, just a moneyscam, be carefull to find some squirrels inthere.

  65. “As a thetan, DM is (hate to say it), basically good.

    And so he is undoubtedly attempting to stop himself at a core level.”

    Hate to burst your bubble but he is one of your precious 2,5 % . In wog Life that would be 3 to 4 % is a psychopath kind of way.

    He can’t stop himself because he hungers foir more and more power,control, perversion and money or MEST if you will.

    “Have you ever met a real SP, a real Monster?”

    I don’t know if I got the LRH phrase right, please correct me if I am wrong.

  66. WH bless you, now that is Gandi-Tech at work.

  67. @WH:

    I’m in agreement with you, an I would go so far as to say that when the edifice comes tumbling down, we should treat everyone that comes out as simply enturbulated beings. They are really no different from everyone else on the planet at that stage.

    Somebody has to be the bigger thetan and I always feel much better after I’ve decided it will be me.

    Of course, you still have the full right to decided who is in your circle of friends.

  68. Sam — HS = high school 🙂

  69. Don’t know how this got under Haydn’s post — it belongs under Sam’s post,

    BUT — I have to say Haydn — you post is totally wonderful –
    I feel as if we have EACH OTHER — something I never truly experienced before. Always just too timid to treat each other with kindness and understanding.


  70. Margaret, he allready belongs in jail. first step for you is to stop protecting criminals.

  71. “or worse, and hurt others along the way.”

    Allready happened

  72. Hear! Hear! No truer words have been spoken.

  73. Theo Sismanides

    Haydn, simply but powerfully written. We have the tech and we have each other.

  74. Windhorsegallery,

    Great points!

    I added a little more clarification to my previous post, above.

    What I really want is for everyone to come to grips with how the DM tactics turned them into robots in the first place, and then take the necessary steps to not fall prey to it ever again.

    The lack of willingness to even LOOK on the part of the parishioners, while at the same time shunning and threatening us for questioning things, is a big test for me, called “What Is Greatness”.

  75. Back at ya! 🙂

  76. Wind Walker

    Thank you Haydn.

    I am sure with you on all that. I also truly believe that we have the tools to do the job and the responsibility also. For all we know LRH may well have seen this coming and let it go down anyway, just to see if Scientology really did have a chance to move into the future.

    In any case we have been given the tools, and with duplication and true understanding, I feel we can create and have the future LRH intended.


  77. Theo Sismanides

    DW and Free to Think,

    Thank you for your post and deciding to move out of the C of M.

    As many others I am also experiencing a feeling of unity after seeing your posts. We become stronger every day and now we are even stronger with people like you who have contributed to planetary clearing for so long and so dedicatedly. The tides are definitely turning.

    Well, Ron… Hub Bard, the singer/poet of the Hub… just wrote his poetry and surely there were people coming to him…

    I see the same happening now… We have the tech and we have each other as Haydn said… and may I add, we have an organizational functional type of scheme here, able to cause an effect… and get the wheels once again turning. There is a certain emanation of a high level of free theta or of a fine wavelength that comes out from right here, from us thetans, here, being now free to think, independent and getting closer together with each other..

    The Hub is being re-created… I can feel it as it turns round and round gaining in vigor, and echoing into the galaxies, moving once again the wheels of this universe.

    After 10 years of loneliness for me, away from the Hub, I unite back with you guys… I am expecting more people to come to us and this is happening… every day.

    It’s not a bad thing to move on from where we are and accomplish even greater things. It all lies now onto how much we understand and apply the full array of weapons and tools the Bard gave to us.

    I am sure that once the Hub is revived we are going to be in need to take it onto the next level. This point in time is approaching rapidly. We shouldn’t miss our responsibilities. OTs do best with OTs. No need to stay away from any such scheme because of the bad example of a paranoid megalomaniac.

    As a matter of fact once the Hub is revitalized it’s beauty and power will be such that nothing will stop it. No suppression will be possible to keep it from turning the wheels for good, this time. Because this time the Hub is us… we are it and it’s turning the wheels by no force at all… because for the first time, we don’t have anybody to tell us to turn the wheels, it just happens by itself because of the Enlightment we have gotten and the one that is taking place right now and right here in this very place.

    Welcome aboard!

  78. Haydn,

    That was perfect! Long live Scientology! Salud!

  79. AlexMetheny

    Great post Virgil!!

  80. Hi Alan! Welcome. I’m Marta – just work-a-day gal, Marta.

    Yep, I love my original books, too. Great story.

  81. Death is the ultimate rejection of theta by entheta. Entheta is theta chaotically embroiled in MEST. Entheta rejects theta. Death is life leaving the physical arrangment of chemicals. The chemistry is taken up again in some other form as created and animated by life.

    The Church, suffering under the entheta and death postulates of David Miscavige rejects theta and life. That is death.

    Life, withdrawing, with lessons learned, sets back to creation manipulating raw materials.

    The wealth of lessons learned exist in the Tech Vols, in the OEC, in the books and tapes. As we all learn and experience this incredible amount of knowledge regained by theta, we get better at the next round.

    Tomorrow, a new manifestation.

  82. The cool thing about coming here is the little spark of excitement that hits whenever there is a fresh story.

    Keeps things hopeful.

    And the commenters (other than OSA Super-Bot Trolls), are cool to eachother, even in disagreements.

    In the church, a disagreement equals big trouble if you are disagreeing with DM. Hell, I’ve gotten in trouble for bringing LRH to the table to blatantly show outpoints about DM’s plans.

    Not so, here.

    Thanks to Marty for the hard work!!! Really!

    I’m tipping a glass with Haydn! Half full, indeed! 🙂

  83. AlexMetheny

    Virgil made me think of something. It’s something like the world begins with TR0. Or it is like the Level 0 materials on basic auditing. It is LISTENING. It is GRANTING BEINGNESS. It is ARC. These are the things that bring about case gain.

    And in order for that to happen you need to be WILLING to talk to the auditor.

    I am no longer WILLING to be audited by the Cof M.

    They have proven to me that they cannot be trusted .

    The current church is not exhibiting it’s own fundamentals. If they were, would you have so many people leaving?

    Yes…the church is dead.


  84. martyrathbun09

    You hit the nail right on the head.

  85. Terril Park

    “This whole VM thing about “I can talk to anybody for you about anything” is BS.”

    Isn’t this the old councellor idea that
    DM trashed in mission conference? Very successful I heard.

    Anyway, anyone interested I volunteer. 🙂

  86. Wouldn’t it be great if the church kept the money and, in a new era of the CoS, cleared the planet for FREE? 🙂

  87. Alex you nailed it.

  88. Thanks!

    Are there any more South Africans here? It’s hard to believe I’m the first 😉

  89. The basics aren’t a moneyscam, they’re how you bankrupt the church with a new Bridge, just as the IAS millions is how you bankrupt the church. The tech of orders of magnitude of importance in what management is to push, spelled out very clearly in key policies, is altered. Miscavige is in this to kill everyone’s infinity, it’s not about money. That he owns tens of millions in personal assets has nothing to do with his goal, criminals embezzle as a matter of course.

  90. “I think I’m not alone when I say that I had many wins on the Basics …”

    Freetothink, reading the basic books three decades ago — in the comfort of my own home and without any duress at all — changed my life.

    Now, if I had been forced to “do the Basics” as a *requirement* … for me at least … I doubt that those same cognitions would have ever happened. But it is heartening to hear that these books helped wake you up (as they did me) … I hope it is happening to others as well.

  91. No Ghandi tech for the top guy, CD?

  92. Haydn,
    I humbly join you in this toast and I say we have lost nothing and DM has gained nothing. We have merely evolved from innocent and naive OTs having learned the hard lesson that there are beings who will take advantage of our honest and trusting natures. LRH warned us and gave us the tech to rise above it. That is the simplicity. We have it now. Thank you LRH and thank you fellow OTs. A toast in honor of you all.

  93. I’m also a non-Scientologist but I have to say that if your concern here is about money then you really need to lurk more or inform yourself about what has happened to this Church and its parishioners under the leadership of David Miscavige. I can’t begin to imagine how these people feel, but if this was happening to my Church I know the last thing on my mind would be money, although I’m sure it’s the first thing on Miscavige’s mind.

    DW’s posting really made an impact on me. I also listened to that conversation with Michael Doven and he seems like a good person. I sincerely hope he reads what DW has written and takes a good look at Marty’s blog AND at the internet. The truth is out there and he just needs to find it!

    Note to David Miscavige:

    The Church of Scientology does not have enemies – YOU DO! People protest against the vile abuses, disconnection policies, forced abortions, fair-gaming and NOT against the right to practice their religion as you would have your members believe.

  94. Impartial English Girl
    You’re not ‘wrong’ – a natural sense of justice is well founded. But it’s blood-money. Let it go, along with the lavish chunks of MEST. We have theta and life.


    PAOLO, you are a smart guy and I agree and see the same (theta gets enturbulated by entheta or leaves ). The Cof$ is dead and a new organisation of theta is automatically being created from the theta that has left.

  96. Cat Daddy,

    Well now you’ve got me curious…

    I thought that everybody is basically good but that about two and a half percent are being very bad due to some bad whole track stuff.

    If I have this wrong, someone help me out here because I left my LRH tech at the freakin’ org!


  97. Damn! That’s what I was trying to say! Thanks Qual Ninja – you da man!

  98. That’s so right. The real goal of Miscavige:

    “A church that embodies insanity, criminality and war, where no able being can prosper and honest beings can have no rights, and where man is only free to max out his credit cards.”

  99. And MEST is theta with a problem (Axiom 46).

    So, in investing heavily in MEST (buildings), the CofS is creating problems for people (with its fundraising) about buying theta with problems.

  100. The church of miscavige with all its marble, gloss and PR can burn to the ground as far as I am concernd. Out of the ashes, we can build a new Scientology, one that beliefs in its teachings.

  101. Not to mention these articles from The Universal Declaration of Human Rights, a document to which CofM pays lips service and publicly states the church supports:

    Article 18
    Everyone has the right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion; this right includes freedom to change his religion or belief, and freedom, either alone or in community with others and in public or private, to manifest his religion or belief in teaching, practice, worship and observance.

    Article 24
    Everyone has the right to rest and leisure, including reasonable limitation of working hours and periodic holidays with pay.
    (For the staffers who are peeking! 😉 )

    Article 25
    1. Everyone has the right to a standard of living adequate for the health and well-being of himself and of his family, including food, clothing, housing and medical care and necessary social services, and the right to security in the event of unemployment, sickness, disability, widowhood, old age or other lack of livelihood in circumstances beyond his control.
    2. Motherhood and childhood are entitled to special care and assistance. All children, whether born in or out of wedlock, shall enjoy the same social protection.
    (For the pampered few to verify the veracity of such of staff being of service to you)

    Article 30
    Nothing in this Declaration may be interpreted as implying for any State, group or person any right to engage in any activity or to perform any act aimed at the destruction of any of the rights and freedoms set forth herein.

  102. Chris Black

    Something all of this reminds me of, a datum I’ve found useful many a time. It’s a good datum to compare to the current leadership as well as one to evaluate one’s involvement in any game, especially the current CoS.

    From HCOPL 12 Sep 67 Post, Handling Of:

    “I believe that to command is to serve and only gives one the right to serve.

    I have to be, above all things, effective and cannot fall short of being effective or
    explain ineffectiveness away.

    I never compromise with a situation to be agreeable.

    In handling something I figure out if I want to play that game or not and if I don’t I won’t. And if I don’t I will do anything needful to disconnect from it and if I do I will do anything I can to win it.” – LRH

  103. NOTSAWARE, LO – I’m sure DM will appreciate your feelings on this. If it were me, I’d be royally pissed. Regardless, I’m sure that when/if the Church falls, DM will ensure that all of the parishioners’ hard-earned money just disappears.

  104. >And that no agency less than God has the power to suspend or set aside these rights, overtly or covertly.

    Marty, does that mean that my comments which are critical of LRH will start passing moderation? 🙂

  105. Gary Morehead aka "Jackson"

    Hey Hayden…… Clack Clack… Clack Clack… A double toast to you my friend. I am right there with you!

  106. Chris Black

    “Scientology however is alive in the hearts and souls of hundreds of thousands who have had even one win since 1950. ”

    This is it in a nutshell.

    YOU are Scientology. You ARE Scientology. It is not an edifice, structure, org, piece of paper or otherwise. It is only and solely YOU. And always has been.

    Chris Black

  107. >I just don’t understand why you seem to want the church reformed so badly when you are not a Scientologist.

    I’m not Chuck, but as an outsider — and one probably not well liked by the regular commenters here 🙂 — I think I can shed some light.

    I believe that Scientology was harming people long before DM came to power. I believe that DM exacerbated those problems, but they have their root in LRH’s policies.

    Now, I don’t think Scientologists are idiots or bad people. On the contrary, the Scientologists I know are, as a group, kind, well meaning, and often intelligent. (The love and support shown in these comments is proof.)

    I also think that because LRH and his tech are so much a part of their life, tScientologists can’t see it objectively — just as a devout member of any religion can often not take criticism. It is hard to shake one’s core beliefs, and it is the reason the road back to the wog world is such a long and difficult one.

    Please understand that the view from out here is much different than your own. Yes, I believe there are helpful aspects to Scientology — but I believe that many of those aspects are not original ideas from LRH nor unique to Scientology. I see extreme efforts on LRH’s part to get you to believe that they are both original and unique, though, so that you’ll stick with him.

    I see concepts like gradient and hard sell (the Scn definition), all thoroughly explained by LRH, being simultaneously used (and accepted!) as forms of indoctrination. I see false data, data which can be proven false with a few Internet searches, being blindly accepted as truth because LRH said it was so. And I see clears and high-level OTs — many who achieved those levels before 1986 — who simply aren’t all that able.

    I see Scientologists who have trouble understanding LRH’s writing and lectures, and blindly assume that the problem must be them.

    I see people eager to heap blame on David Miscavige. Yes, he is running the organization that LRH worked so hard to start, into the ground. Yes, he has caused a lot of problems. But has he caused all the problems? DM may be powerful, but he isn’t that smart. If one accepts that viewpoint, one doesn’t have to look critically at LRH.

    Most of all — and I understand that this may be hurtful and out-reality to a lot of readers; I hope you will hear me out and not tune me out — most of all, I don’t see a lot of difference between the goals of DM and the goals of LRH.

    Maybe I’m pushing this issue too hard. Consider it a form of hard sell — I know that many of the people on this blog have been through hell at the hands of the CoM, and I care enough about you to not be reasonable about stops or barriers; I care enough to get you the information that will rehabilitate you.


  108. Chris Black

    Ethics is a personal achievement. It is something one does for oneself to enhance one’s survival. Let’s not copy the regimented robotic (mis)application of perverted, altered ethics as is currently applied in the Church.

    We crack the backs with our sleeves rolled up, each person individually, helping each other out and up. Only way it will work.

    I’m enjoying the climb up. Always good to claw your way to freedom. 🙂

    Chris Black

  109. It would make little logistical difference to anyone in the immediate future even if DM was removed today. 20 years of DM-bottism has become too inbred and would pretty much require the next generation of fresh meat in order to purge it out of the system. Local poster-child OTs and other Über-Thetan “Wanna-Bes” would be threatened with the loss of their imaginary power & status and would continue on in DM’s valence in auto-mode long after he blew to connect with his role models in the northern Chaco of Paraguay.

    The local orgs would still shovel out his shyte for decades to come.

    If a competitive system of entirely separate and independent Scientology organizations existed there would be no such thing as the IAS or other entheta panic-button reggings. Each would have to conduct themselves in a businesslike manner to woo their clientele. Heavy ethics, gang-bang reggings, “End of the World” responsibility-trippings, 3-P puppeteerings, ad infinitum … and you might as well close the doors.

    If Scientology is in fact a service corporation, it certainly doesn’t act like one – never mind anything that resembles a caring religion.

    I have thought about this for many years. There is no quick fix, the next COB would pretty much suffer the same fate in less than half the time if there is no systematic change. And ultimately, that will never happen from within.

    I thought I would never say this, would have previously considered anyone “El Carne Evil Supreme” for even thinking it … but … SCN Inc. in its current form … has to go down … or bypassed for greener pastures.

    What does it matter what SCN Corp. hits the dust as long as LRH Tech exists?
    Its the tech that sets us free, not the existence of a particular SCN organization.

    If I have learned anything from all this is that even the supposedly most ethical, trained OTs cannot be trusted with a monopoly.

    The ideal scene would be to be completely indifferent to what Napoleonic runt, or anyone else for that matter, runs a certain church corporation. Read the papers on it if it amuses you, otherwise ignore, and go wherever you feel happiest to be Scientology serviced by.

  110. Jack Airey


    One more glass up for your toast. I prefer my full…kind of an Irish thing.


  111. Dear Virgil,

    I recall seeing your name in ASI Central Files, when I was a lowly ASI staffer 1992-1995

    Jay Hurwitz was Jon Horwich’s pick to head 1981 FEBC program at Flag, I was the wimpy sup that needed replacing, my forte was nerdy policy “hard to find” skills I’ll admit, and Jay did the FEBC sup job, and D of T at the end of 1981-82, then Jay got pulled up to Int and ordered to take over CO LAD, after which the spitting incident, and big Int Comm Ev (see Mark Fisher’s Facebook story, Mark was Secretary on that Comm Ev, and this digression story is ONE of the controversial incidents I hope MORE ex members detail someday, including Jay).

    The spitting, relevant to it, is LRH’s advice/order to Int Management at the time, when LRH, in my opinion, figuratively commented in this advice one small phrase, which DM took literally (Larry Brennan believes the climate at Int was that others, not just DM, were of the mindset ALSO to take this following comment literally, and thus it was widespread NOT only just DM doing spitting as a rebuke punishment to erring Int staffers at that time), the quote is:

    “….and if you see John Aczel [then WDC SMI and supposedly the one who let the Mission Holders’ “criminality” go unchecked to supposedly Scientology’s overall detriment] spit on him for me…..”

    The “….spit on him for me….” 1982 advice comment from LRH, I took it as figurative, it would be good to get Steve Marlowe, Jesse Prince and anyone who recalls this, to me this is another reason to GET LRH’s final years of traffic into the public domain to job some peoples’ memories, but this advice, in my opinion thus opened the door door crack to the spitting on any staffers, Homer Schomer at ASI, Jay Hurwitz, John Aczel, Roger Barnes, and apparantly a number of others.

    Chuck Beatty

  112. I think it’s sad that many remain in direct contact with DM and many more take his abuse and then deny it. One cannot continue a destructive bent and not eventually pay for it. He has perverted the tech, LRH’s legacy, and the Church LRH worked so hard to achieve. I wish that more would wake up and leave and find safety in the scores of supportive people waiting to help them find their lives.


  113. splog,
    We’d all like to BE South Africans 🙂

  114. If I hadn’t left the Sea Org, I secretly would sympathize with what you say, had I been allowed to hear what you just said.

    I wasn’t a kneejerk hater of all who got declared SP when I was in the Sea Org.

    I too thought Scientology is something in a person’s heart so to speak (I’m an atheist materialist, so technically this is all a mental emotional to me today).

    Yea, just carry on, I think people like Class 8s, who did the Briefing Course, and really absorbed and have a complete total knowledge of the spiritual tech, fine, I have a raft of reactions, not on topic, which I’ll skip.

    LRH to me is Scientology.

    How do you just throw aside what LRH wanted, I guess, is my point?

    Meaning, if I could mind meld ALL of LRH’s management traffic/policies/orders/lectures into your head, so you had LRH’s viewpoint of what HE wanted, how can you see fit to just ignore what LRH wanted for the BIG picture of earth?

    I hate to ask it, but the “Boots in the Sky” reference, when I was a nerd compliant, underling sort of milktoast type of Sea Org member, in my final years as I slipped UP the org board, slipping onto ASI staff through the computer room position, the narrative that gets pushed on you is how BIG those boots are, and that doing the BIG movement of all of Scientology, I just CANNOT think other than What would LRH do?

    My Sea Org track was policy and the bureaucratic setups, the rules, the details.

    I pored over ALL of LRH’s admin writings during my stint on the Computerized Routing Forms Project, which is when I was first privy to all the Commodore’s Staff Aides/CMO Int advices, ALL LRH last years admin advices, and then later in 94 at ASI I read the ASI traffic LRH wrote to ASI.

    To me, even though I am NOT a Scientologist, there is just NO way LRH would throw out all these Scientology organizations.

    It just ain’t something he’d do.

    What do you say to this argument?


  115. I saved abouty twenty minutes of that phone call I had with the girl the other night.

    These kids are being given so little information.

    So much truth comes out in that phone call about the mind set inside, especially in the young ones who have never known anything different.

    Is there a place to post this sound clip? Is anyone organising them or anything?

  116. Theo Sismanides

    Hi Alan, great for standing out. Each person doing this makes us stronger and stronger. Thetawise, I can feel it it’s a rehab of all this theta. Thank you for speaking out!

  117. Joe Howard

    Alan, welcome and thanks for making yourself known. Now, your needed and wanted is to find out when the sequel to District 9 will be released!
    (Seriously, though, great to know there’s some free-thinking Springboks around.)

  118. Theo Sismanides

    Wow Jim, you really said it, man. Qual Ninja, yea!!!

  119. Alex,

    Because I don’t think LRH would throw out the organizational pattern, were he alive, simply.

    Even if DM and others allowed the movement management to go so off the rails these last 30 years, LRH would NOT just say, “Oops, guess admin is a bust. Well you guys have the tech on the internet, so that’s as good as it gets it seems. Good luck you guys and see you when you get up to OT 9 or OT 29 when don’t need your bodies any longer, and you can instantly hook up with me telepathically. You have all the tech you need, see you!”

    He (LRH) would NOT do that.

    Even though I am not a Scientologist, for instance experts on the Greek version of the Bible are atheists. I’m an ex Sea Org policy nerd (OEC/FEBC Course Sup/Word Clearer and Computerized Routing Forms Mission person).

    due to my Sea Org Admin Course Sup and later the Computerized Routing Forms background, I willy nilly ended up a sort of an admin nerd expert of LRH’s admin part of his full cannon of works, is all. I wanted to be a helper scribe/policy wonk nerd in Exec Strata but ED Int didn’t want me. Paul Grady someday can explain, Paul broke it to me, when the Routing Forms Mission was over, that ED Int didn’t want me in his crew. I would have been devoured in the Int Base crap, so over my next decade or so in the Sea Org I was only sort of a visitor at the Int Base, and I worked in RTRC in compilations on the OEC checksheet, and I worked at INCOMM Int, and then I worked at the computer nerd at ASI, so I being the nerdy policy type, “pulled in” reading almost everything, AND thought a hell of a lot “literally” about what LRH really wanted to have happen to the movement.

    I agree with new religion scholars who have the opinion that cults/new religions go on and on, despite all sorts of leadership crises and flaps.

    Only Jonestown ended one cult, the Jimmy Jones cult died due to them killing themselves all off.

    Even the Branch Davidians, since some survived, are still going!

    Official Scientology is gonna unfortunately carry on, and I think we alive today will be outlived by official Scientology, even though at present it is “dead” in its heart so to speak.

    I think LRH’s admin structures, that keep the Sea Org staff and all other staff echelons inspired and operating on auto pilot, I think ALL critics and I think now all independents who think official Scientology is going to wrap up and fall apart, will be proven wrong.

    The proof is in the pudding, and let’s see who’s right in the year 2020.

    My opinion is official Scientology will still be slumbering along.

    It’s strength is the completely underestimated strength of LRH’s admin writings that tell them what to do. LRH masterminded an autopilot continuing admin system.

    I think reform is possible, since I’ve watched, in my early days in the 1975-1081 period, such a revolving door switching of managers, that cleaning house and remanning management, it’s a doable thing, and it’s something LRH did himself compulsively.

    DM is so completely NOT doing what LRH would do administratively, but I think things would NOT necessarily be wonderful, but I think they would be better than what things have descended to.

    I’m literal, which is why subjective labeling of Scientology management and parishioner history makes me say what I say here.

    I don’t want to rain on the new independents’ parade, so I’ll butt out.

    LRH just wouldn’t throw out his admin echelons, that’s for sure.

    More on my history is at my site of postings

  120. Great article Mr. and Mrs. Laying low OT’s.
    I agree with everything except this.
    All the guys who ambushed Marty, including Michel 9what I think is the actor and IAS Medal Winner) are NOT good guys.
    By definition they do have a rather great amount of agreement with Mr. Mismanage.
    Even if you are right that they have been sheltered from the gang reging, etc – how can they not see the outpoint in programs like, public book donation, superpower never finished despite spectacular fundraising, constant releases of immaterial materials, redoing everything from grades to CCRD and OT VII, -recently at Flag even the objective right after attesting to clear, and of course the ever so destructive Ideal Org program.
    I am OEC & class V auditor, OT IV ,but a housewife which is the basic building block of good economics ,would see the out pint in all of the above ,especially the super stupid Ideal Org program.
    Here is another reason why those guys are NOT good guys (basically yes, but currently derailed).
    They ARE part of the gang reging. Not only for cases such as Marty, but extortion in the name of eternity and Ron.
    They are part of the making you and I feel guilty program of not donating our lunch money.
    Michel is such a dud, and proud of. Medal winner my ass… public robot for Mr. Mismanage.
    I have blown him of several times –the jerk he is.
    Ok, this goes for anyone working in Orgs , INT, Missions, Narconon etc. and those FSM’s (like Michel) or my OT VIII, class 8 auditor who gave up auditing in the field because he was Not GAOT and started reging for Ideal ORG project. NOT a good GUY. Sorry Ron Fiandica and Lyn Fiandica, you helped me a lot in the old days, but you really blew it.
    At least your Kid, Sam and his wife had the guts to leave the SO from INT base about 10 years ago.
    Ron thought us to think and disagree. He released and rereleased the KSW several times for that reason.
    What is happening is happening on all four flows and not saying NO is agreement.
    Fear of loosing eternity. What balderdash? Nobody gives you eternity – you have it. And Ron was teaching that to me the first few weeks in SCN.
    Never afterwards did I fear losing anything.
    Ed INT, (ex) and other people I learned to personally love such as Heber, ARE having – must have major mutual out-rudes and thus agreement –
    Maby this is harsh, but this is how it is.
    Evel IS hard to confront. Thetans know, and if they do not act, to this degree they are part of the destroyers and not good guys.
    Thanks god they never are strong guys as many personal dealings with ED INT and others still there have shown me clearly.
    Of course a punch on not so strong guys can still cause ea lot of havoc as we are clearly experiencing.
    It is in fact their incompetence which is making them doing such stupid and distractive things.
    Anyhow, welcome to the right side, and while you get your ducks in row do some good spying and make sure your dad base of many, many scientologist, staff or public is in perfect shape.
    Personally I screwed up on this point and have a hard time contacting everyone I want to.
    After all shouldn’t every one know the good news that there still is real scientology happening?
    On that note I should tell everyone that I am on a big win (come back when you want some more) from my L12 with Trey Lots.
    My wife Hellen Chen, an OT VIII has done L 11 & 12 and – well – she is beaming. And then there is my executive director and good Friend Yin Chew, an OT V, who finished L 11 with a new life gained and is now winning on L 12.
    I am not one to like to tell wins out of session or after finishing a course, but am more for talking about life changing stuff because of the course or auditing, and I am telling you life is changing – and it was not even bad before.
    Scientologists in or out of the church, as well as not yet in, ought to know about the great tech in the field.
    So far, I have been able to convert (silently so far) 3 OT’s after we have originally left in Feb. where 100 + have followed my wife and me loudly and officially.
    The church is dead. At the beginning this looked sad to me. (a few years ago) but now I see that this is a good thing.
    We are creating an independent church with independent people, thinking independently – jut the way the old man wanted it.
    Will we one day – way down the road – have a laugh with him when we find out he planned it that way – to teach us to use what we learned?
    Love Helmut

  121. becomingAware

    Yes it has passed. It passed some time ago but few saw it or more likely, few wanted to see the dream fade. However it has changed. We and others are here. The church is gone but the Religon lives on in unaltered LRH writings and in us, those that have experienced the Religion before it was altered. The Religion lives. This cannot be broken by DM. We Live.

  122. Freetothink….am I reading you correctly here….are you saying you started seeing more and more outpoints in the CofS scene from reading the Basics, DM’s prized project? And that had the Basics not been read, you’d still be blind to the same outnesses?

    In other words, the Basics came back to haunt DM by making the subject of Scn understood correctly, so any incorrect departures stood out like a sore thumb? Are you alone in this phenomena?

    Please clarify a bit more and thanks!

  123. Alan McKinnon,

    Hello and welcome to your theta group my South African friend.
    Enjoy your freedom and your beautiful family!!!!


  124. AlexMetheny

    Hi Chuck,

    I’m sorry if I am being dense but I still don’t see YOUR motivation as to WHY YOU seem to want the Cof S to survive?

    You don’t believe in thetans and all the other stuff associated with Scientology right? Then WHY do you care??

    Why do you spend all the effort that you do to help out something that you really don’t even believe in?

    I don’t really want you to butt out. I actually kind of like you. I just really don’t understand your motivation.

    I really feel like this: I wish this guy did believe in thetans and auditing and so forth. Then I would really feel like you were part of the team. I think you are a valuable guy. I wish that I could rehab you somehow. A guy like you who did so much to help Scientology. I can’t but help feel that you were beat up so much that you had to throw out the baby with the bath water.

    My message to you is that you can still be part of the group. Your help is needed and wanted.

    I am still curious though…


  125. Barney Rubble

    Notice to all,

    Well it’s a now an official deal–now I am geting calls from FSO on a Louisiana area code for ” A Basics follow up” that I never signed up for after I regretably paid for DM’s revised basic books.

    I’ve noticed now I get bulk mailings on the major mags from outside the church adresses and sources. And since I’ve ignored calls from 727 and 323 area code for 6 months, now I am getting calls from FSO and PAC from Louisiana area code? WTF?

    Anyone else getting this phenomena?

  126. Free to Think,

    You are absolutely right. You wrote on behalf of thousands of us who have experience the injustices, out-tech and Reversed Scientology by DM.
    We are the ones who are applying the Creed of Scientology and the pure tech.

    Thank you for being there and communicating with truth.

    I love you and your spouse for everything your are doing to keep the tech free and freeing those trapped thetans in DM’s church.

  127. Pingback: What OSA does not know is whom they really are. « SILVIA KUSADA's Blog

  128. The number of hours of sec checking people are getting is proportional to DM’s fear of being discovered and exposed as an SP who has destroyed the church and everything LRH and many others created. You who are still on lines . . . the length of your sec checks is a measure of DM’s overts. Think about that next time you acquiesce to being frisked in session for more overts instead of being audited to free you and to get you up the Bridge.

    Yes, the church that we knew is dead. The great thriving, theta missions of the 70’s are dead. The spirit of moving on up a little higher is dead. The electric air of excitement, the sense that spiritual freedom and the state of OT are just around the corner for all of us is dead.

    Yes, the church is dead; long live Scientology. Long live the Independent Scn Community. Long live theta and sanity and the freedom and ability to think for oneself. Long live the indomitable human spirit and the irrepressible quest for the genuine state of OT, for the truth. Long live this free community of thetans in ARC with each other, with a common purpose to be free, to actualize our full potential, and to improve conditions for every being on this planet.

    Yes, well, here we are. Thank goodness for Marty’s blog!

  129. martyrathbun09

    IMHO LRH would start from scratch, materially.

  130. Chuck,

    LRH isn’t here to boot Miscavige and set things right towards a more ideal scene. Any of us would do that if we had the authority to do so.

    Let’s look at some references from the Data Series:

    Data Series 41

    The end product of your evaluation could be said to be “What do we do about this?”

    A Why, by essence, is something you can do something about. You have to have a recommended action on top of the Why.

    Therefore the definition of a Why is: It must be something which will permit you to bring about a better scene-not necessarily bring about the ideal scene. You might actually have a better scene than the ideal scene!



    An Ideal Scene is FUTURE.
    When one is stuck on the time track it may seem pretty difficult to envision a
    In politics this is called “reactionary” or “conservative”. These mean any resistance to change even when it is an improvement. The bad old days seem to be the good old days to such people. Yet the old days will not come again. One has to make the new days good.
    “Liberals”, “Socialists” and such make great propaganda out of this. They inveigh against (criticize) conservatives and say the future must be reckoned with. And they hold up some often incredible future scene and say the way to it is by “revolution” or destroying everything that was.
    Both viewpoints could be severely criticized. The conservative tries to stick on the time track with no reality on the fact that today will be yesterday in 24 hours. The super-liberal skips tomorrow entirely and goes up the track 5 or 10 years to a perfect state which can never exist or is falsely represented as possible.
    In between these two viewpoints we have the attainable.
    And we come to an Ideal Scene that is possible and will occur if the Why is right and Handling is correct
    and done.
    Envisioning an attainable future requires some connection with reality.
    There is no harm at all in dreaming wonderful dreams for the future. It’s almost the bread of life.
    But how about giving oneself a crashing failure by disconnecting from any reality?
    Some laborers do this to themselves. Taking no steps to attain it, they daydream themselves as kings or some other grand
    identity. Well, all right. But that isn’t an “Ideal Scene”. That’s a delusion engaged upon for self gratification in a dream world.
    One can not only dream a possible Ideal Scene but he can attain it.
    It should be quite real.


    In other words Chuck, let’s keep it real.

  131. Martin,

    The funny thing is that the only thing that keeps anyone *un*free to have Scn delivered to oneself is one’s own agreement with the church’s suppressive monopoly.

    As soon as people are out here in the democratic real world, they realize that they have only been stopped by shadows. They realize that they can have the entire Bridge, on both sides, without mortgaging their first born, without having to withstand a barrage of invalidating sec checks, and without having to check their own right to think at the door of the org.

    Without the church monopoly, Scn and Scientologists can flourish.

  132. martyrathbun09

    Caliwog, As long as you make an effort to catch up and understand the 200 plus posts and 20,000 comments that have been made to date, we’ll likely hear you out. If you post lengthy uninformed comments trying to indoctrinate in an uninformed fashion, we’ll not.

  133. Beautiful idea. 🙂

  134. Very well put, Maggie.

  135. AlexMetheny

    Awesome Helmut!!

    That’s the spirit!! (Ever see the movie Blade Runner?? ) The replicant in the movie says that line: That’s the spirit!! That is how I mean it. The movie is worth watching if you haven’t.


  136. Concerned Citizen

    By the by, I doubt he could be succesfully seck checked, it’d have to be an overt in his point of view for it to read and none of the crimes he is currently commiting are overts, he is right and can not change.

    There is a very specific problems process that will bite, but I don’t know who’d be willing to run it on him. He might get handled last, certainly deserves no one’s help since he feels it is OK for him to shut the door on people for ever and use Scientology as suppresively as possible.

    Make no mistake, I was recently briefed on how squirrels are shutting people from their future. This is true, just look at what he is doing and how people following him are not moving on the bridge as they should. How many OTs are in danger, in trouble, sick, dying, blowing, even renouncing Scientology, not just the church but the whole thing, more than ever in history that I can remember and this IS HIS STAT, it is happening under his watch so I don’t think he’ll be getting any seck checking, or problems process anytime soon, unless it is as a justice action and so he can be turned over to rot in jail.

  137. Dear Chuck, if you have doubts in the Tech get to know if well before you promote your own doubts about it all. I can just tell you with me it does always work, but I happen to be an expert at it from the bottom to the top levels. It took me some time before I could reach that certainty, but now it just is the case. I don’t mean to be rude, but I’m very goddamn proud about the subject!

  138. Concerned Citizen

    I’d use it to failry compensate staffs and SO who have worked a lifetime for next to nothing and will have little to start with.

    With what is left, I would use the ORGs as they exist ( building that is) to build the actual orgs that operated according to OT orgs. and the Reason for Orgs HCOPL.

    You know, just invest it on delivcery, making auditors, (real auditors, not robots/parrots)
    as far as original donors, credit them with auditiong and training for every last cent thy donated, including IAS donos. Idle Org donnos, etc.

    If anyone wants refunds. follow the Policy on it and GIVE IT BACK. but a good field clean up would handle a large number of these. There is enough to go around and get it booming again. Being fair to all concerned, specially staff and ex staff.

  139. May I ask a question Marty?
    On your Facebook page I saw you had in your friends a few people who, so far as I know oppose Scientology itself. Not just DM, but Scientology and LRH. Also, some from the group Anonymous post here. I think some of these people are true SP’s. What is your intent towards these people?

  140. Concerned Citizen

    LOL. Where do I pre order?

  141. Thanks for putting this issue in perspective so nicely, Chris.

  142. Marty, fair enough. Although, I’d still like it if someone would give me a definition for the birthday game!


  143. DW…free to think,
    I probably know you and your husband. It is a sad and yet triumphant day when someone such as yourself comes forward to speak out as you did. Thank you.

    Now I will go back and read what everyone has said.


  144. Jim, Qual Ninja

    You’ve done it again…pulled out the exact LRH reference that puts it all in proper perspective and decimates dm’s foolish intentions. sigh


  145. Haydn,

    clink! clink!

    To Success!! That is what we focus on and that is what we have, again and again.


  146. Jail is not death. It is the consequense for abusing Freedom.

  147. Splog…Alan

    Whatzit? Welcome!

    Nice post, felt like I was invited into your universe, which I enjoyed visiting. Seems like you done your book learning real good.


  148. Tom,

    Very well stated. We are in accord.


  149. Concerned Citizen

    I have 2 quotes from the Matrix, the first one makes me think of DM.
    The second one makes me think of the blind followers
    I’d like to share a revelation that I’ve had during my time here. It came to me when I tried to classify your species, and I realized that humans are not actually mammals. Every mammal on this planet instinctively develops a natural equilibrium with the surrounding environment; but you humans do not. Instead you multiply, and multiply, until every resource is consumed. The only way for you to survive is to spread to another area. There is another organism on this planet that follows the same pattern… a virus. Human beings are a disease, a cancer on this planet, you are a plague, and we… are the cure.
    Morpheus: The Matrix is a system, Neo. That system is our enemy. But when you’re inside, you look around, what do you see? Businessmen, teachers, lawyers, carpenters. The very minds of the people we are trying to save. But until we do, these people are still a part of that system and that makes them our enemy. You have to understand, most of these people are not ready to be unplugged. And many of them are so inured, so hopelessly dependent on the system, that they will fight to protect it.
    [Neo’s eyes suddenly wander towards a woman in a red dress]
    Morpheus: Were you listening to me, Neo? Or were you looking at the woman in the red dress?
    Neo: I was…
    Morpheus: [gestures with one hand] Look again.
    [the woman in the red dress is now Agent Smith, pointing a gun at Neo’s head; Neo ducks]
    Morpheus: Freeze it.
    [Everybody and everything besides Neo and Morpheus freezes in time]
    Neo: This… this isn’t the Matrix?
    Morpheus: No. It is another training program designed to teach you one thing: if you are not one of us, you are one of them.

  150. jefretheta

    Really, really great stuff!!! Marty you are bringing your A game man. I got into scientology as a conduit and system to see the truth regarding existence and to power up and be much more able as a result. I agree that reverse dn & scn has been running in the C of $ for a loooong time now and I and I think you guys are decompressed or decompressing so that we can easily observe the obvious again. Number one objective, end the tyranny and end the pain and suffering for all. For me in the church it has always been a contradiction of what LRH said and what was, period. Now I REALLY understand why. This in itself has tremendous value because it as-ises the scene. LRH gave us study tech, communication tech admin tech, etc that he created and have huge value, etc. I dont think he got those from other sources. LRH has said himself many times that he used other sources to create scientology as a whole, be do have from the veda etc just add my two cents about that discussion here. All in all chaos before order again and Marty you are spearheading the order at your own personal risk and I commend you for it once again. Till the next post, Best, Jefretheta.

  151. DFB —

    Of all people who are actually using Scn tech right now I don’t know of anyone better than Marty to possibly really HANDLE those who “oppose Scientology itself”. You think “Anonymous” actually opposes Scientology? Really? NO – “they” oppose observed insanities done in the NAME of Scn. Of course a “real 2 1/2 %er” would oppose Scn. And you have to ask what Marty’s intent would be toward that?? Give him (and us) a freaking break!

  152. Caliwog,

    Your post is a fairly well written essay from the view of a spectator. You miss the heart, the essence, because to you it is all “interesting”.
    Nothing wrong with that, but it does come across as condescending and didactic.
    You are not nasty or ill-intentioned particularly, imho, but you just don’t get it. We do and can understand your view, do not ever think that we do not or cannot see ourselves, nor do we need an outsider to “explain” our deficencies of understanding.

    Are you an academic? You come across like some professors I know.


  153. A friend and I were talking one night about another friend of mine who’s still in. He pointed out all people who are still a part of the CofS, even those who are declared but still in the CoM mindset, are all potential agents in service of the Matrix (where the CoM is the Matrix).

    Anyone still in will turn if they perceive (or become convinced) it’s necessary for their survival.

    Thing is, the CoM is not that answer, but because they’re plugged in, they’re not seeing the Matrix for what it is.

  154. Chuck,

    Did you EVER consider yourself to be a Scientologist? I notice that each time you post you emphatically state your are NOT a Scn.
    Okay, we all got it, you are NOT a Scn.

    Now, if you weren’t, how did you ever get into the Sea Org? Whatever in the world could have been your reason for doing that?

    You have studied, apparently, a great deal of LRH materials and don’t appear to have any great disagreement with them.

    It is just so odd, that you keep asserting that you are NOT a Scn.

    What are you doing here? I do not ask that to be anything but curious. I really am curious about that.


  155. Concerned Citizen

    I’m with you WH. I know I said I wouldn’t audit DM, But I would if he honestly hit need of change, because that is what Scientology does, it helps anyone who reaches for it without regard to their station, and in any situation. One of my favorite passages from TWTH is the one on anyone can trim their sheets at any time.

    And it does work, if we can un-stick him from the incident, I would, and same with everyone else. But till they are in need of change, well, they are the system and KSW warns the bank is capable of the most amazing dramatizations to perpetuate itself.

  156. Hi DFB, I can’t speak for Marty, but I can speak for me. I’m Anonymous.

    I protest so that the JB’s of the world can choose to leave their job working for the CoS without having to run for their lives, without being required to choose their freedom over their relationships or their eternity, without being followed by 20 abusive people intent on taking them where they don’t want to go.

    I protest so that the Heber Jentzsches and the Shelley Miscaviges of the world can choose where they want to live and work, can go home at the end of the work day to enjoy the good company, a tasty and wholesome meal and the pleasure of relaxing or seeing a movie or reading a book or the newspaper. I protest so that they can have weekends and public holidays and annual leave and be able to rest up when they’re sick and see a doctor or the dentist, and so that when they reach retirement age, they will have enough salted away to keep them safe and secure and healthy for the rest of their earthly lives.

    I protest so that you, DFB, and all who choose Scientology can be free to practise it in such a way that the crimes and abuses that have marked the conduct of the Church of Scientology are consigned to history.

    If that makes me an SP, then I embrace that title, because I will gladly oppose those who will enslave, abuse and subjugate others. I suspect, however, that it does not.

    I note you wrote “some of these people are true SP’s”. I give you credit for not generalising. Keep reading. Keep communicating. Let’s work together on that about which we agree, and respect liberty enough to allow each other our differences.

  157. Concerned Citizen

    .You are right Idle Org, if you are scientologists. Hence ethics, FPRD and confessional tech, among other tools.
    In psychology however, pure evil does exist, it is in fact something that a low % of purely Psychopathic personalities are afflicted with. Such as Hanibal Lecter.

    I read a book about that which left me stunned. I understand how they arrived at that conclusion, but after hundreds of hours and countless PCs, I know for sure that man, all man (and women;) are basically good. But I know this empirically

  158. Concerned Citizen


    “I see extreme efforts on LRH’s part to get you to believe that they are both original and unique, though, so that you’ll stick with him”

    What? I’m sorry but I take great offense to the assumption that none of us here can be objective, because of belief.
    Really, is it possible that this is your intyerpretation of things, is this a case again, where if you don’t see things the way I see them then you are wrong?

    I have a number of times said, I think the possiblity of being in error is always there, but I have to go with what I find is workable, makes sense and applies, and allow my view point to evolve.

    I appreacite that you feel that way. That is YOUR INTERPRETATION of what LRH said and did. I disagree, But I can see that you are able to compute and reason and so you must conclude what is true for you. And my experience is not necessarily yours, so may be I would think like you if I had experienced what you experienced.

    We have our own thought process, if it does not parallel yours, it does not make it wrong.

  159. Hi Alan,

    I’ve answered a few of your comments before, and it’s great to have a real name now to go with the nic. Glad to meet you, and welcome!

  160. ” . . . even the supposedly most ethical, trained OTs cannot be trusted with a monopoly.”

    Bingo! I think this is the key to assuring that Scn can never fall into suppressive hands again.

  161. To ad to that I am sure he will be offered auditing by this group when in jail.

  162. There is silence. Set me straight guys !

  163. Dear Alex,

    I think official Scientology surviving is inevitable due to how LRH has set it all up.

    Gordon Melton, a mostly detested apologist scholar for a variety of socially obnoxious new religions/cults, I think is right when he said that NO splinter group has been effective yet, in history battering back at Scientology’s setup.

    LRH has set up official Scientology to defend itself even despite DM’s mistakes.

    I see this as a battle bigger longer range of how to sidestep LRH’s admin setup.

    Granted, ignoring official Scientology’s existence, and doing your thing as independent Scientologists is an obvious.

    But when historians, some researcher nerds (of which class I pretty much fall into) someday open boxes containing all of LRH’s admin writings and they nerdily pore over them, they will wonder what the hell happened or how extensive the bureaucratic writings of Hubbard were in building and maintaining the admin system.

    I also think people way underestimate the power of LRH’s admin setup, and that setup fuels and powers the official movement even if it is lead badly.

    Motive? History. Since I invested the time in the admin writings, it’s the area I became somewhat of an expert, felt some pride understanding (the computerized routing forms research and writing time I spent was a lot of work and sweat studying and putting together all of LRH’s ideas into those routing forms, making sure each line fit exactly what he wanted).

    I’m just a wound up ex Scientology admin policy nerd, still spouting off in a zone I knew intimately is all.

    Motive, history. I love this freedom to even discuss some of the big Scientology history issues, and think also, that communication about it, will lead to helping decrease the suffering of those stuck in the predicaments of the movement in a negative way.

    I see the independents and all this discussion as positive.

    I think just wishing the Scientology movement dead and gone, isn’t real.

    Time will tell if it dies.

    Switch out the leaders with people who are more into doing the Int Base Staff Statuses and becoming total experts in LRH’s writings on movement strategy, and things would inevitably open up for even the “dead” Scientology movement.

    I, when I defected out, had a collapse back to my atheist viewpoint, and have NOT rebounded into believing in thetans and the rest, so I only can support the moral highground goodness of the independents.


  164. freebeing11

    I can only speak for myself. My viewpoint – after donating 7 figures – is keep it in the existing shell and let’s just get this thing back on track and get on with it. Personally I will be happy to see the current activities stop. By current activities I mean the vicious reg cycles, the extreme pressure but staff to extract every last nickel from any able Scientologist, and the EXTORTION tactics used for reg cycles ect.

  165. As Marty pointed out earlier to Chuck when asked directly “what would LRH do” – Marty said — in his opinion, LRH would start from scratch, materially.

    To this I would add … IMHO, he would take EVERYTHING that WORKED and dump the rest.

    LRH wasn’t so invested in HIS ideas that he didn’t change them — often … listen to the early tapes — he had THE solution – every day — and then THE solution etc.

    He kept trying.

    Just as he would today.

    The Dalai Lama when asked about his comments that he might end the line of Dalai Lama’s — he said — what he is concerned about is helping all sentient beings end their suffering and will take rebirth again and again to help them occur. BUT AS the “franchise” of the Dalai Lama — not necessarily or necessary.


  166. Foremost,

    Great post. Thanks.

    Reminded me of some points LRH made in HCO PL QUALITY COUNTS. Here is an excerpt:

    Quality is the ONLY thing that counts.

    Deliver the goods. That’s a crude way to put it. But if you want a new and better civilization you won’t get it by advertising or worrying what people think of you. You will it get only by releasing and clearing people and sending them out into society to get the show on the road in all branches of human activity, including Scientology.

    This morning I received a cable from an Org. An urgent cable. Did it say, “How do you assess for a Pre-Hav level” or something sensible? No, it didn’t. It said, “Send us some biographical data for a newspaper article.” I spit. That Org is doing the lousiest job possible in Technical and is all worked up to get publicity. What’s this? Do they think a society in this shape will approve Scientology in power? Hell no! And to hell with this society. We’re making a new one. So let’s skip the approval button from a lot of wogs and settle down to work to make new people and better people. Then maybe you’ll have a society.

    Right here and right now this policy is laid down in concrete with an atomic branding iron: THE FIRST AND PRIMARY GOAL OF AN ORGANIZATION IS DELIVERING THE FOREMOST TECHNICAL QUALITY THAT CAN BE DELIVERED IN ITS AREA.

    All right, I’ve made my technical target bang in the bull’s eye. You can release and clear. You can train auditors well. Well, Christ! Let’s do it, do it, do it!


  167. martyrathbun09

    WH, you are so right. He did that his entire life. In fact, I intend to demonstrate rather conclusively that he effectively canceled Disconnect.

  168. martyrathbun09

    What I have said before about broadside and tasteless attacks on Scientology being counter productive has been verified in spades this past week.

  169. What I have said before about broadside and tasteless attacks on Scientology being counter productive has been verified in spades this past week.

    Hi Marty. Not sure why my post elicited that comment, as I wasn’t attacking Scientology at all. What have I missed? (I have a migraine, so I’m not fully functional – perhaps that’s why I’ve mis-communicated.)

  170. Heather — not speaking FOR Marty — but the way a person can reply to the comments AFTER the first posted comment is to reply to the next person who has a reply button left —

    THUS your post had a reply and I figure Marty clicked on it.

    If not — well — I don’t know but I for one found your comment about WHY you protest as well as being anon very good and clear.

    Thanks for caring.


  171. Chuck,

    Even if probably it is not the priority right at this moment, I do believe that what you say about getting the LRH advices published into public domain is very important for the “truth rundown” to be completed and to get a real reformation of the church of scientology.

    The R advice have been an hidden data lines for scientology for years. The general public will understand a great deal by reading them and will be able to get things in context.

    By the way: together with Al you were my sup on the OEC. Those were great times (even if you always wanted to send me to ethics or FTRB…)


  172. To Chuck:

    Chuck, the church of scientology is dead. I don’t agree with re-establishing the sea org.

    Even though I agree with you re publishing the R advice, I support Marty’s view: if LRH was around and on the ball he would re-start from scratch.

    The c. of S. right at this time is too entheta to try to salvage it. It is the spiritual equivalent of what Lehman Brothers was financially.

  173. AlexMetheny

    Thanks Chuck.


  174. martyrathbun09

    Paolo, right. Add to the equation that LRH is NOT here. Time to grow up kids.

  175. Sometimes in written words it’s hard to communicate the tone. I wasnt meaning to attack.
    A specific example is Bent Corydon who wrote Messiah or Madman. Unless he’s changed his beliefs he is against LRH and Scientology.
    I am seeing that some who are considered enemies of the Church are’nt as they are painted by the Church. But people who attack Scientology and LRH, I dont want to be “friends” with them so much. I’m not going to attack them or be their enemy, but they are not going to be my facebook friends.
    I think I get why you are open to them but you should also be careful who you have on your comm lines. I think some of these Anonymous people are 1.1 and they are conveniently using your energy for their own ends. I dont believe that the guys who come out in masks and protest at my org are there to fight for my freedom. I think they are PTS or SP’s and that was from close observation of them.
    The people you ally yourself with will highly influence the end result IMO.

  176. martyrathbun09

    DFB, I don’t have time to do background checks on FB friends. This all sounds peculiarly like an OSA Facebook police inquiry.

  177. I’m not OSA Marty. I guess I just have a lot of questions and whatnot. I guess I’m in doubt. I thought I had figured out a nice place for myself- pretended non-doubt, or park it in the back of my mind and keep moving, but maybe thats just still doubt. I’ve known, in some form or another this day would come for about 15 years. But anyway you look at it, it sort of sucks. I don’t know how to decide. Thats the main thing that sucks. How do I really verify this information? It feels true, but thats not a lot to go on. I would probably lose almost all of my friends. People I count on . People who rely on me.

  178. Obnose what is, in the year 2010.

    You’ll see that the church is indeed dead.

    In fact, it’s far worse than dead. It has a horrid, world-wide reputation. A destroyed brand. The Enron factor.

    Time to move past this fact and flow power to those working to free the tech.

    A long way up the Track, this will be what mattered most.

  179. Theo Sismanides

    Chuck, hi, so you are an admin expert and I agree with you that the admin setup of LRH is hard to break. DM has successfully managed to sit on top of it and be the Pope.

    That it can’t be broken though doesnot mean that it cannot be duplicated to some extent.

    Want to give it a try? Let’s see you back in action.

    Now, sorry I don’t believe you don’t believe in thetans. You wouldn’t be here Chuck. There is something there you are sensing. Maybe the theta(ns) here? I mean we are a different breed of cat, wouldn’t you agree? Polite, gentlemen, short-tempered sometimes like in the SO, weird kind of guys, not matching with anybody else. Even Caliwog can’t get it and thinks we cannot come down to the tone level of this wog society and pretend to be… businessmen, artists with no real purpose or whatever else is there.

    So, just because I DO know admin is going to pull this thing off I invite you to give it a shot.

    Like Div 7, Div 1, hahaha, you know… the cycle of action. I know you know this tech is so much underestimated especially by tech terminals since probably they are not lines people.

    So, here we are Chuck! Let’s have some fun.

  180. DFB I am going to acknowledge you.

    “I think some of these Anonymous people are 1.1 and they are conveniently using your energy for their own ends. I dont believe that the guys who come out in masks and protest at my org are there to fight for my freedom. I think they are PTS or SP’s and that was from close observation of them.”

    Most of us are just shocked by the actions by the church of Scientology. Your observation is right in the sense Anonymous ia all over the tonescale as it is a collective of Individuals with a wides pectrum of motivations. Yes haters are among us but:

    Alsoo it is my believe that one Individual can have several tonelevels in him at the same time. 22 Games and 1.1 Covert Hostility contained in one person in the same Time unit.

    Keeping the orgs Empty is preventing Miscavige from getting his hooks in yet another potentïal victim. As long as you tie your survival to serving David Miscavige us clowns and jesters will be in front of your orgs as anonymous prommised back in 2008

    You may see us as SP’s but the source of suppression is much closer to you.

    This battle began long before anonymous

    The Battle between the Geeks of the Internet and the Church of Scientology is actually been going on for 20 years.

  181. I have knee jerk respect for Class 6s and above. People who really listened to the hundreds of Briefing Course tapes, by osmosis get a lot instilled in them.

    I’d rather not get into my detailed disagreements, it is not germane to what positive things you independents are doing.

    My beliefs, I’ve just accumulated almost ALL of my current beliefs from the postings of longterm critics and scholars who’ve written about Scientology, and from the long list of critical books, and anyone fully familier with all that’s been critically written about Scientology and LRH over the decades, see I am just regurgitating what others more wisely concluded for decades already.

    My doubts and negative comments are not on topic here, and not relevant to the positive stuff you independents, and old Class 6s and Class 8s are doing with Scientology today.

    I’ll try to stick to more positive on topic comments in the future.

    Marty’s comment that LRH would start materially from scratch, makes me think of the Isaac Hayes tech film, “Why TRs”.

    I wish we had that film in the public domain for all to see.

    Possibly that film is justification for what you independents are doing!

    It’s the film that is only showed on the Briefing Course today, and maybe Dan Koon or someone who’s seen that film, it’s the one where Isaac stands on the floating platform out in the middle of space, and addresses the audience, about LRH’s plans for the LONG future, future lifetimes, other planets.

    That message, fromLRH, via Isaac the narrator, I think is relevant to independents as far as what LRH wants of you all who are Scientologists for real.


  182. DFB, many members of Anonymous are in it solely and only to expose the human rights abuses within the CofS. There are a lot of people within Anonymous and each has their own agenda, though.

    In other words, these people are allies — up to a point. Maybe not “friends.” If you looked at my facebook friends, you’d see people all over the map, but, in my case, I’ve tended to add only people I have talked to over the phone, met in person, or known online for years.

    You may not see that in the protestors, but I’ve been friends with people who are, to varying degrees, critical of Scn and the CofS for 15 years. Some of them were there for me in my darkest times when no CofS member was. I define friends by who’s there for me when I need moral support, not by how much of a party line they spout.

    If you are counting on people who you would lose if you were honest, well, if they were really your friends, they’d be there for you no matter how you felt about the Church, though perhaps they’d need some adjustment period. If they’re relying on your pretend non-doubt, given that you’re not being true to yourself, maybe they’re not being true to themselves either. Until one of you breaks the deadlock, the lie will persist, and there can’t be real spiritual freedom over a lie like pretended non-doubt.

    In my case, my Grade 0 is in. I heard Marty say the same about his Grade 0. Not everyone I speak with will agree with me about Scn. Go them.

  183. Ceileen asked Chuck:

    “did you EVER consider yourself to be a Scientologist?”

    I felt NOT a complete Scientologist, ever.

    I failed as an auditor at Flag, back in 1976
    I completed the Dianetics Internship as FSO TTC, but then failed in March of 1977 and was busted as an auditor, so my auditor’s career was very very very short, even though I made it through the Flag Dianetics Internship, I lasted only 3 or 4 FCCI precelears and messed up and got busted. I then became Asst Admin Course sup and was mentored by Al Baker and became a fairly decent Admin Course sup for 4-5 years at Flag, in the original Flag Bureau Exec College that morphed into the Int Training Org.

    I for sure considered myself a Scientologist, but always felt like an aspiring or in progress Scientologist/Sea Org member, I was extremely literal, in my own head about things.

    Case wise, I never got past Grade 0, and I was so literal, I just couldn’t attest to even Grade 0, thinking that the EP was something that I honestly literally could not attest to, so I ran Grade 0 for years. (I had over 120 pc folders when I finally routed out of the Sea Org.)

    I never got to the OT levels, so that was sort of a disgraceful situation for me as a decades long Sea Org member.

    So, I didn’t feel like a complete Scientologist, since all those years I felt like I was a failure as an auditor, and NOT a full Scientologist for failing to get through at least OT 3, and I wasn’t even a Div Head type of leader. Course Supping and Word Clearing and being expert on admin references was my zone of accomplishment as a Scientologist.

    I thus never felt I was a full blown Scientologist.

    My “hidden standard” for a Scientologist is probably a Class 8 Case Supervisor, and NOTs case level.

    Ceileen asked Chuck:

    “How did you ever get into the Sea Org?”

    In 1975, LRH ordered 100 TTC members to be recruited for the FSO just then landing in Daytona and subsequently Clearwater, to be trained up to Class 12. That sounded good, and I was a regular student in the Phoenix Org at the time on my Dianetic Internship, this was Dec 1975. It took me all of 15 mnutes to decide take the offer, I dropped out of Arizona State Univ, quit my job, gave away all my belongings, donated everything I had to the org actually, and emptied my bank account and paid for a flight to LA, and in 2 weeks I was at Flag Clearwater, this was Dec 12-19, 1975. Steve Marlowe and Laura Marlowe were the Flag Personnel Procurement Officers at CLO WUS which was at the Hollywood Inn on Hollywood Blvd, at that time.

    I wanted to go exterior. LRH guaranteed exterior with visio on the Ls. Class 12s deliver the Ls. To be a Class 12 you have to receive some of the Ls. So I saw how I would get my Ls, and achieve my exterior goals as a thetan.

    After I failed on the Class 12 auditor route, I reasoned I’d help the organization, since the goals of getting people their immortal selves released to fly exterior at will was a permanently good thing to be doing.

    “….you keep asserting you are NOT a Scn….”

    Sorry, that’s an unnecessary and inappropriate and off topic thing to keep asserting, sorry.

    Celein asks Chuck:

    “What are you doing here?”

    I’m a Scientology history buff, I talk to scholars and keep various media informed on the trends, and I want to understand where the independents’ heads are at.

    Being an admin zone buff, and I was piqued that LRH’s admin strategies and plans have been so knocked out of the picture of what the heart and soul of Scientology is, then fine.

    No one was defending LRH’s voluminous writings about administrative organizational stuff is all.

    I can ask my questions in private, and keep off topic stuff off of these threads, sorry.


    Looking at the long future, even the long future, per LRH, the “Why TRs” movie, shows what it might be like WAY into the future, where Scientologists are as effective as they have the fundamentals of Scientology really down in their minds, so when they find themselves up the line on other planets, they’ll be operating from memory, and in that movie, there are NO OEC volumes sitting around.

    I’ll butt out, sorry.

  184. John,

    You make a very good point. I can’t count the amount of times I’ve walked into the MAA’s office and seen OTs being forced to apply Treason for such silly things like this or sitting in the HGC and the unfortunate OTs passing out their Liability’s to be read and signed. It is so degrading when you think about it. Especially when you realise that all the ‘confidential’ materials are available on the web!!!

    I believe that this is just another way the OTs are being controlled and suppressed. It’s sickening!

  185. Just for the sake of being interested in your case, who do you have as friends on Facebook? David Miscavige? Get a life!!!

  186. martyrathbun09

    Chuck, Thanks for the “Why TRs” reference. I was just talking about it with friends today – but forgot the title. Man, is telepathy at work here? Or mere coincidence? If it is the former, thanks for the ideas pal.

  187. “On your Facebook page I saw you had in your friends a few people who, so far as I know oppose Scientology itself. Not just DM, but Scientology and LRH. Also, some from the group Anonymous post here. I think some of these people are true SP’s.”

    Maybe Marty is not their SP?

    Keep in mind allies are made by the exchange of ideas and the DM shut-out process has garnished little more than a cumulative roster of enemies. Sometimes if you have a better plan, expect forces to join … cutting comm can sometimes create the opposite effect. “If in doubt, …” … Well, you know how it goes.

    AS long as DM isn’t on it, little point ringing any alarm bells … lol

    If they add themselves as a “Friend” for the whole world to see, they might not be as “opposing” as it seems. Some may be opposed to Scientology as an organization, but not LRH tech itself.

  188. Maybe from Baton Rouge mission…

  189. Cool, I can see that at this time, with this whole block of people believing that it best to do Scientology outside, together, however you guys work it out.

    I was being literal, I’m a literal person, which means I couldn’t just NOT react to the statement that the church is dead, because of all my piled up ideas I’ve piled up on the subject.

    But I understand what is meant, what Marty is saying, I can agree to that viewpoint that Scientology today, is so different from before.

    But, again, I go totally literal, I think that Scientology is LRH, so I know that the parishioners sitting in course rooms all over the world, ARE doing Scientology if they are at least reading LRH’s writings and absorbing the same beneficial ideas that people who are free to read and dialogue on this blog receive.

    I’m so literal, this is really not even a point to disagree on, I see now.

    I think a summary of Marty’s blog postings ought to be done by someone, pulling out Marty’s key points.

    I look on this blog not as a participant, but as one who wanted, as is part of my nature, to discuss the bigger issues of the whole Scientology movement, and that is off topic most of the time, and was off topic to some degree on this thread itself.

    For those who cannot receive gains being in official Scientology, but who are getting gains with Scientology OUTSIDE the suppressive official Scientology churches, then YES, the church that suppresses Scientologists from getting gains that they get OUTSIDE of official Scientology, yes I agree official Scientology is thus DEAD as a church if it tosses out so many people who are still practicing Scientologists.

    No disagreement, that the existing church as currently run, is NOT a church that works!

    I’m more into fiddle faddle details and the unreal (one person correctly noted) thought that technically, per the outside world, the official church is still THE church of Scientology.

    But if that current church, doesn’t give people Scientology wins, and the outside independent freezone Scientology groups give people Scientology wins, then YES, argument won in yourguys and Marty’s favor, I concede!

    And the point of just backing off from any hope in the Sea Org, I can see that is the overwhelming agreement of most ex Sea Org I’ve met in the 6 years I’ve been out, so using the same sort of rationale, is the current Sea Org worth it, and the answer is no.

    Fine, conceded on that score also.

    My literal self might kick in again at a later point, in about 10 years, I’m sure it will, as things roll forward on other issues, as I keep watching what happens.


  190. “LRH was around and on the ball he would re-start from scratch.”

    LRH handles things, and unless Scientology was not salvageable, he wouldn’t restart. He could, in its current state, fix it all up, but I also believe he is the only one that could do it. Too many DM indoctrinated droids at this point … let’er slide … I no longer care … I came for Scientology … you’d never see me join anything what’s going on today. And it seems … neither does anyone else.

  191. In response to Chuck’s very honest and detailed answers to Eileen —

    Chuck: Now I remember more — you were course admin when I was on full time training for Int Strata — yanked out over a technicality — and reposted. It was then I started to want to leave the SO.

    Your ex-wife Ann was very sweet. I liked her a lot.

    And you are too hard on yourself IMHO — you were always very kind and very efficient and later you suped me as public and you were a terrific sup.

    In any case, your story made me kinda sad, Chuck.

    All of us have different cases and different “stuff” — I didn’t handle lots of things I should have, and could have as I had some wonderful auditors.

    It just wasn’t “my” time yet — to really wake up and be free from several of my deep pockets of aberration.

    But — please don’t butt out. How could you now? Considering the telepathy? 🙂

    I’ve always read your various comments on all the various boards and was happy to see you arrive here.


  192. Freedom Fighter
  193. Chuck,

    Great point about the “Why TRs?” tech film. I saw it on the Briefing Course. It indeed is an LRH reference for how one may in the future need to begin from scratch.

  194. I dont have David Miscavige as a Facebook friend. I have family, actual friends, people I know. It’s was just a question. If you’re interested in the preservation of Scientology technology why have Facebook friends who are actively fighting, or who have in the past fought to destroy it- not just the management, but the tech itself. People who have published OT levels and spread degrading rumors about LRH in print. People who have websites and books saying what a lying pervert, drug addict, con man LRH was.
    I think thats a fair questions. They are just Facebook friends. I can understand just clicking “approve” to be a nice guy because it in actuallity doesn matter all that much. It probably handles them a bit. Makes them less of an enemy. I just dont know if I personally would click “approve” on a couple of these guys.

  195. Chuck,

    “Case wise, I never got past Grade 0, and I was so literal, I just couldn’t attest to even Grade 0, thinking that the EP was something that I honestly literally could not attest to, so I ran Grade 0 for years. (I had over 120 pc folders when I finally routed out of the Sea Org.)”

    I have always been impressed with your high comm level – I mean, who in their right mind (I thought) would post their name, address and phone number on these message boards inviting communication from one and all, including OSA? Your prose is eloquent and you discuss things with clarity, humility and sincerity.

    The amount of time you spent on the grade is alarming but I’ve seen similar outnesses before. LRH says the pc frequently blames himself when auditing is non-standard and not giving the expected results. A bad TR 2, missed F/Ns and the like can make the pc question his wins. Overruns can occur, unbeknown to the pc, other than that things aren’t quite right. This can effectively kill a nice state of release. Obviously I don’t know what happened exactly, but I wanted to acknowledge your high comm level and that in my opinion it is very likely standard tech was not applied. Forgive me if this is delving too far in your case, particularly in an open forum. I simply felt compelled to comment on it, but won’t take it any further.

    “An auditor’s fractured comm cycle, unseen additives, lack of skill on a meter, attitude or false report can make a standard process not seem to work, and only these may make one work toward unusual solutions and get unreal about standard tech.” LRH

  196. martyrathbun09

    DFB, I might have taken the time to ferret through them had I not received this message from an obvious member of the Facebook police. But since you keep insisting with whom I communicate and not communicate with, I think I’ll just let it ride. Adios.

  197. Concerned Citizen

    The best way to explain my concept of the CoS’s death, is a metaphor.

    There was a Star Trek episode, in which a gelatinous life form assimilated its pray and took the pray’s form, voice etc. No one could tell the difference between it and the actual person it assimilated, at first and since it assimilated its memory, even with proving people could not really tell. But the jelly did not become the pry, it was a replica with its own agenda, further assimilation of other pry.

    Now the legal and physical structures of the CofS may go on for centuries to come, like the Catholic Church survived its inquisition periods. But it is NOT the Cof S we knew, it is not the CofS LRH created either.
    I cannot say conclusively that the Vatican would be recognizable to Christ or not, but I can assure you that Miscavige Ville is that gelatinous thing, that looks like the Cof S, sounds like it and retains it’s memory, so it can fool many, but it is not the same Church, it was consumed by the jelly and it died in the process. LRH would not recognize it.

  198. DFB, morbid curiosity: out of Marty’s facebook friends, whom are you accusing of publishing OT levels?

  199. martyrathbun09

    I don’t think Jesus Christ would go near any modern Christian church. I highly recommend the book The Shack as support for that opinion.

  200. No, Marty I’m not Facebook Police whatever that is.
    Theres just two people I sort of cringed on. I dont have any power over you to tell you who you can communicate with.
    Bent (Brent?)Corydon? Mark Bunker? I think both these guys have published OT materials and attack LRH and the technology of Scientology.
    Maybe I dont get them. Maybe I dont get what a Facebook “friend” means.
    I’m just looking at the group as it were and trying to figure out who is in it. I dont want to jump in a boat and find that someone brought a snake. Does that make sense? I think up dumb idioms 🙂

  201. Freetothink

    Mickey, yes, you are reading me correctly, at least partially.

    “… are you saying you started seeing more and more outpoints in the CofS scene from reading the Basics, DM’s prized project?”

    Yes, that’s exactly what I’m saying! I had great wins studying the material in sequence. Whether or not some of the materials have been altered by DM I had great wins with the Basics & I thought it was a wonderful idea to have all Public, Staff & SO study them so we can all operate from the same data. I was never in agreement w/the enforcement they were putting on it though. I thought that was violating most of what I was studying on the Basics. The evals & invals to get Staff & Public to comply became more & more flagrant. As I was reasonable before, justifying these outpoints with “lack of hatting” after one had studied the Basics they had no more excuses not to apply them. The inhibition/enforcement of ARC would just jump right at me. This is just a few of the outpoints that could not be excused any more. There are many more. Too many to list here.

    Part of the straw that broke the camel’s back for me was doing the PDCs. I was using my old transcripts & started noticing that some paragraphs were missing. Also LRH was talking about some OT abilities like they were a “fait accompli”, very common & easy to achieve. Attainable pretty much by anyone. I was OTIV at the time & although I felt pretty able I didn’t have any of these abilities at least not at will. I knew lots of OTs & I had not observed even one of them exhibiting those abilities at will in a stable fashion. Sorry if I’m being general here but the PDC has over 70 lectures & it would take lots of time & words to bring all the specifics. So please take this as the general impression I was having as I was studying. Some would say I had MUs. I don’t really care what they think. This was MY reality even after clearing all the words I thought I should clear.

    Basically, as I was studying the Basics I was becoming more & more aware. Becoming more & more exterior of the whole game. I couldn’t help seeing how far the day to day operations of the Church were from the Ideal scene even 3 yrs after the release of the Basics although most staff & SO had done gone through most of the Basic books already. Something had to be seriously wrong but I wasn’t quite sure what the why was. At the same time I was having many wins so I was hanging on.

    Here’s the part of your comment that’s not exactly right:

    “And that had the Basics not been read, you’d still be blind to the same outnesses? ”

    Not exactly. Many things contributed in my waking up & knocking off my reasonableness to the outpoints I was observing. Reading the Truth Rundown last June ( which was just a couple months after doing the PDC) was a huge turning point. I started to see what the “why” might be. Suppression coming from the top of the Org Board!!!!! The truth Rundown did not turn me against the Church but it embolden me. We started writing reports & pointing out to others more openly with references what the outpoints were. We became targets immediately. The evals, invals, the shunning, even a disconection phone call from a friend.

    The snowball had already started down the hill & then came Geir, Mary Jo, many articles on Scientology cult & many more.

    So would I still be blind to the outpoints if I had not done the Basics? I don’t think so. I don’t think I was quite blind anyway. I was more reasonable & self-invalidating. Thinking something must be wrong with me if others are seeing things all “honky dory” but not me.

    Sorry for the long response. Hope this answers your question. I’d love to hear from others that have done the Basics to see if they have experienced a similar thing. Maybe Jack can comment.

  202. Freetothink

    “The rotting skeletal shell of an organization that’s being discarded by those who are still spiritually alive and aware. DM’s/OSA’s resuscitation attempts are useless. She’s long dead, boys. Just take a whiff – the stink cannot be contained. And, we are free. Scientology lives!

    Hip, hip, Hurrah!!!!! Standing & claping for several minutes 🙂

  203. Okay, DFB, I’d quite forgotten that Bent’s book did have part of OT III in it. That said, if it hadn’t been for the mission holder conference of 1982, would he have written it?

    Some people lose faith after betrayal.

    I don’t know what Riverside was like in 1982, but it was huge in 1980 when I left staff at OC.

    On Marc Bunker’s site, two of the top three items were Marty and Mike (Rinder).

    I highly recommend the Human Trafficking Press Conference, actually, if you want to confront an SP closer to home, featuring several people talking about their time working in the SO.

  204. Chuck,

    I thought of another LRH reference on this.


    The world of Scientology is based on ARC and held together with ARC. Bad technical and tough attitudes concerning the remedy of poor service break downt this world.

    My own often repeated policy to my personal staff is “Give them what they want and keep them happy.” That sounds like a very indefinite policy indeed. But it makes people face up to and handle indivicual confusions as they occur, each on its own merits, it presupposes people are basically good and it is successful.

    The more thetan you have present, the less policy you need and the better things run. Only a thetan can handle a post or a pc. All he needs is the know-how of minds as contained in Scientology. That was all he ever lacked. So, given that, sheer policy is poor stuff as it seeks to make a datum stand where he should be. That’s the whole story of the GPM’s. So why not have live orgs?

    Policy is only vital where agreement must exist between two or more thetans working together. Beyond that it fails. A needful policy is “We’ll start work on time” since without it the org goes ragged. A useless policy would be “The registrar must always smile at an applicant” for that puts a datum where a person should be.

    So there are two kinds of policies – those needed to obtain work-together ease and those which seek to put a datum instead of a being in a position. The less you have of the latter the better things will get. The more reasonable the former, the more work will get done.


  205. Chuck,

    Here is another LRH reference on this point.

    HCO PL 19 March 1968 SERVICE

    The watchword is SERVICE.

    I don’t care how many rules you break if they’re broken to give unselfish service to one another and the public. We live for service not for rules.

    When there’s a group to be helped or a preclear to be processed or a student to be trained, see that it’s done and if it gets done don’t count the costs in broken rules.

    We are essentially an evolutionary group. All of us together. We must not fetter ourselves beyond increasing our own efficiency, nor must we entangle our purposes with arbitrary laws which do not further our cause.

    Service is the watchword. Orderly service is preferable to disorderly service BUT ANY service is better than no service.

    We are essentially breakers of “now-I’m-supposed-to’s”. Don’t fall into our own new rituals so hard that we are no longer brave and effective.

    Worldwide we are doing better today because of orderly comm lines and administrative patterns, we are making more headway and suffer less confusion, but don’t worship our rituals. Be as orderly as you can. Follow our rules as best you can. But a rule can be wrong and service and our mission can never be wrong.

    Use the rules until they prevent you from doing your job. But if these stop you, then to HELL with the rules! Get the show on the road!


  206. It looks like a piece of gel that slips into the sole of your sneaker, but it’s a new nano-based technology that can make computers and the Internet hundreds of times faster — a communications technology “enabler” that may be in use only five or ten years in the future, currently being created by Dr. Koby Scheuer of Tel Aviv University’s School of Electrical Engineering.

  207. I love this article, more truth articulated.
    Everytime I come to this site, I always feel better, my God, there are people out there that felt the same way I do.

  208. Freetothink

    Where do I vote? 🙂

  209. Freetothink

    Wow this whole interchange of comments is fascinating! Althought I don’t have time to read it all at this time, I just wanted to let you know Chuck that I took a look at the survey & I will consider answering the questions but it will take some time. It’s very long 🙂

  210. Just for semantics. There is nothing official about what the church is giving out.

  211. DFB. I will publish any scrap of paper that the COS does not want to be published just because it atacks the powerbase of that same organization.

    It is your CHOICHE to read them or not.

  212. The Church of Scientology (under the “rule” of the self-appointed “leader” David Miscavige, has been a rotting, decayed corpse since at least 1985, when I left the S.O. for the last time.

    I’ve been a Scientologist for 41 years. However, I no longer consider myself a member of “the church”. I am ashamed to have ever been associated with it because of the utter disgust I feel the the degraded state it has fallen into due to the psychotic mismanagement of DM and his PTS minions.

    LRH predicted that this situation would happen. It has happened to Scientology many times before, but was always brought back under control by LRH personally. He’s not here now. It’s up to us to Keep Scientology Working.

    This means that the current corrupt organizations has to be dismantled, either by attack or avoidance. Per PTS tech, we have two options: handle or disconnect. My wife and I disconnected about 10 years ago after we spent our last dime in a last ditch attempt to get up the Bridge at AOLA and Flag. There is no such thing as Standard Tech being delivered there any more. It’s just DMs squirrel money-machine.

    It’s time to start fresh. The policy and the tech is all available. Thousands of us in the field are very highly trained and experience S.O. members who worked directly with LRH.

    Let’s get a the show back on the road!

  213. Cat Daddy,
    If you had done the Scientology I have done and had gotten the benefits from it I have I dont think you would do that. I’m fine with you having you own beliefs different than mine, but I feel this issue is a key point regarding this particular effort. I wish Marty would just give a nod and a polite smile to some but keep the focus on scientologists.
    Possibly thats what he’s doing. I’m new.

  214. “I’ve been a Scientologist for 41 years. However, I no longer consider myself a member of “the church”. I am ashamed to have ever been associated with it because of the utter disgust I feel the the degraded state it has fallen into due to the psychotic mismanagement of DM and his PTS minions………..This means that the current corrupt organizations has to be dismantled, either by attack or avoidance. Per PTS tech, we have two options: handle or disconnect.”

    I say disconnect AND handle !!! Your write up has simularities with parts of the message to Scientology

    “Over the years, we have been watching you. Your campaigns of misinformation; suppression of dissent; your litigious nature, all of these things have caught our eye. With the leakage of your latest propaganda video into mainstream circulation, the extent of your malign influence over those who trust you, who call you leader, has been made clear to us. Anonymous has therefore decided that your organization should be destroyed. For the good of your followers, for the good of mankind–for the laughs–we shall expel you from the Internet and systematically dismantle the Church of Scientology in its present form. We acknowledge you as a serious opponent, and we are prepared for a long, long campaign. You will not prevail forever against the angry masses of the body politic. Your methods, hypocrisy, and the artlessness of your organization have sounded its death knell.”


  215. DFB, I am alsoo fine with you having your believes and. As it is our day of Liberty in the Netherlands we celebrate our unity in diversity as well as our Freedom.

    I understand your grievances, we just have different views on how to handle the situation.

    Any anon that gets violent will be expelled from the collective. But in all honesty their are more incidents of Church bound (OSA driven or just confused) scientologists physicly atacking anons.

    It is to be expected, we hold no grievances against them, that does not mean we don’t go through the courts. That is to put the Ethics in.

    I wish fort all to be out and the church to be dismantled.

    What remains of the church will forever have the attention of the internet and that is a prommisse.

  216. DFB you have a comm-line with Marty, I sugest you get in comm. His email adress must be on here somewhere.

  217. You are a trooper Victoria.

  218. Marty said:

    “I don’t think Jesus Christ would go near any modern Christian church….”

    I see. And thus similarly, if LRH were faced with the current scene, LRH would materially start over.

    Seems like a reasonable premise on which to proceed.

  219. An incredibly beautiful article. I love the line, “And to DM: You are not my “Spiritual Leader.” LRH is.”

    I remember in a write up, I feel like I have no terminal after Ron passed. Amazing how Essay on Management keeps getting mentioned in many posts – 20 years ago that policy made me cry. I cried because that is not what I was seeing or experiencing in the ‘church’ – and it was a total validation of how I think. I got validated.

    That is the policy I used to fight against a sea org person badgering me to ‘give up’ my grammar school child to the sea org. I won.

    That was the policy I used in my business or at a work environment. It’s a good guide on the 3rd dynamic, because everyone wants to play nicely together.. :oD

  220. Like Marty says back to fundamentals. Here are the lyricks of the video above

    You ready?! Lets go!
    Yeah, for those of you that want to know what we’re all about
    It’s like this y’all (c’mon!)

    This is ten percent luck, twenty percent skill
    Fifteen percent concentrated power of will
    Five percent pleasure, fifty percent pain
    And a hundred percent reason to remember the name!

    Mike! – He doesn’t need his name up in lights
    He just wants to be heard whether it’s the beat or the mic
    He feels so unlike everybody else, alone
    In spite of the fact that some people still think that they know him
    But f**k em, he knows the code
    It’s not about the salary
    It’s all about reality and making some noise
    Makin the story – makin sure his clique stays up
    That means when he puts it down Tak’s pickin it up! let’s go!

    Who the hell is he anyway?
    He never really talks much
    Never concerned with status but still leavin them star struck
    Humbled through opportunities given to him despite the fact
    That many misjudge him because he makes a livin from writin raps
    Put it together himself, now the picture connects
    Never askin for someone’s help, to get some respect
    He’s only focused on what he wrote, his will is beyond reach
    And now when it all unfolds, the skill of an artist

    It’s just twenty percent skill
    Eighty percent fear
    Be one hundred percent clear cause Ryu is ill
    Who would’ve thought that he’d be the one to set the west in flames
    And I heard him wreckin with The Crystal Method, “Name Of The Game”
    Came back dropped Megadef, took em to church
    I like bleach man, why you have the stupidest verse?
    This dude is the truth, now everybody be givin him guest spots
    His stock’s through the roof I heard he f****n with S. Dot!

    This is ten percent luck, twenty percent skill
    Fifteen percent concentrated power of will
    Five percent pleasure, fifty percent pain
    And a hundred percent reason to remember the name!

    They call him Ryu The Sick
    And he’s spittin fire with Mike
    Got him out the dryer he’s hot
    Found him in Fort Minor with Tak
    Been a f****n annihilist porcupine
    He’s a prick, he’s a cock
    The type woman want to be with, and rappers hope he get shot
    Eight years in the makin, patiently waitin to blow
    Now the record with Shinoda’s takin over the globe
    He’s got a partner in crime, his s*** is equally dope
    You wont believe the kind of s*** that comes out of this kid’s throat

    Tak! – He’s not your everyday on the block
    He knows how to work with what he’s got
    Makin his way to the top
    People think its a common owners name
    People keep askin him was it given at birth
    Or does it stand for an acronym?
    No he’s livin proof, Got him rockin the booth
    He’ll get you buzzin quicker than a shot of vodka with juice
    Him and his crew are known around as one of the best
    Dedicated to what they doin give a hundred percent

    Forget Mike – Nobody really knows how or why he works so hard
    It seems like he’s never got time
    Because he writes every note and he writes every line
    And I’ve seen him at work when that light goes on in his mind
    It’s like a design is written in his head every time
    Before he even touches a key or speaks in a rhyme
    And those motherf*****s he runs with, those kids that he signed?
    Ridiculous, without even trying, how do they do it?!

    This is ten percent luck, twenty percent skill
    Fifteen percent concentrated power of will
    Five percent pleasure, fifty percent pain
    And a hundred percent reason to remember the name!

    This is ten percent luck, twenty percent skill
    Fifteen percent concentrated power of will
    Five percent pleasure, fifty percent pain
    And a hundred percent reason to remember the name!

    [Outro – Mike Shinoda]
    Yeah! Fort Minor
    M. Shinoda – Styles of Beyond
    Ryu! Takbir! Machine Shop!

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