An intelligent radio broadcast discussion

A ten to fifteen minute interview with me was broadcast on Canadian Broadcasting Corporation’s the Current show this morning.  I am providing a link for those interested. The award winning  journalist who conducted the interview asked intelligent questions and allowed complete answers.  The introduction piece makes a brief mention of the OT III story, a warning for those of you who believe it can foul up your case or life by hearing it prematurely.  The interview with me is followed by one with religious scholar Gordon Melton – a Church ally, not identified as such.

Here’s the link:

Go to the third story down from the top.

48 responses to “An intelligent radio broadcast discussion

  1. Wow…
    Great interview Marty.

    …in contrast, Tommy Davis, is the worst spokesman I have ever seen. I think the KKK has better spokesman…

    …I could do a better job in defending the church, in my “dissafected” state, than Tommy Davis.

    …I think he needs to retread the STCC.

  2. Nice job. I think the religious scholar, Mr. Melton, is in for something new to scholarize about. This philosophy is full of surprizes.

  3. That was a good interview. By an interesting coincidence I had just finished watching the full forty three minute video of Tommy Davis being interviewed by KESQ (available on google video). The contrast is compelling. The woman interviewing Marty seems genuinely interested in what he is saying and is listening to him. The man interviewing Tommy is clearly framing his questions and using language to try to get Tommy to answer a certain way, and is also clearly dubious. Now I understand that this is the interview Tommy was referencing when he used the phrase “it’s been made clear in other media outlets we find this offensive.” The guy repeatedly asks Tommy the same questions because Tommy isn’t giving him the answers he wants to hear. Tommy actually handles himself very well, especially in contrast to the Bashir meltdown. I think Gordon Melton’s comments in his interview after Marty were mostly reasonable except for one glaring mischaracterization: his statement that the mismanagement at COS’s highest levels doesn’t affect public Scientologists so they don’t care. This is completely untrue, as the main thing Marty & Steve Hall (and Jeff Hawkins does in his online novel) are presenting on a daily basis is the perversion, and outright incompetence of the COS to deliver Scientology services as laid out by L. Ron Hubbard. To support Marty’s assertion that one of the things hurting Scientology is over commercialization I give you the following tidbit from Orange County Org: after a new public is given a personality test and has Scientology/Dianetics explained to them they are ushered into the office of the head of the Org for the “closing pitch” which ends with the ED saying the following phrase: “We accept cash or credit card, which do you have”

  4. You are a much better speaker than Tommy Davis. Gordon Melton says that you are a bigger problem to the C of S than the current French rulings.

    What makes you more credible than others is that you still claim to be a Scientologist and nobody can accuse you of being an angry apostate as those folks who say that Scientology doesn’t work.

    But tell me one thing, Marty. If a reporter asks you why Diana, Arthur, and Suzette Hubbard do not lead the church together instead of Miscavidge, what would you tell him?


  5. Interesting broadcast. You did well Marty.
    I got the impression from Gordon the last speaker that nothing could be done about the abuses due to the time that has gone by is this true?
    TD continues to lie. Disconnection is disconnection. I truly believe that tone level plays an important part in all of this. If you are low on the tone scale you will not question.

  6. An excellent interview, Marty! It was really interesting listening to you speaking calmly and rationally, then hearing the clip she played immediately after, of Tommy Davis sounding very agitated. Well done!

  7. Excellent Marty. Thank you.

  8. martyrathbun09

    I think he has canned responses that defend in one manner or another.

  9. Great interview Marty! Thank you.
    I listened to the entire show and noticed how Gorden, although it was not mentioned that he is the church’s ally (you know it because you have all the inside data), and he definitely sounded clearly supportive of the church and scared of the effect your are creating.

    Do you think LRH believed that knowing the OT data prematurely would harm the individual or is it another lie of Miscavology?
    It definitely has no negative effect on me though I have not done my OT levels yet.

  10. martyrathbun09

    Leo, that is a long story. And it is complicated. In short, nepotism is something LRH wasn’t interested in. At the same time, Miscavige did all he could to propagandize the evils of LRH’s family to LRH. It was a rather clever op – DM took out MSH and Diana while the gate keeper. Arthur and Suzette, while extremely competent at their respective callings were never in the running for executive or leadership roles particularly.

  11. martyrathbun09

    Well, LRH did write Revolt in the Stars which pretty much tells the story and had messengers working on a plan to get the script made into a feature length Hollywood movie. Beyond that, all I can offer is my own personal experience. I fought the wars of the eighties pretty much with no grade chart and continual exposure to OT III data. I flew through the Grades and NED to Clear. But, that is subjective. That is my experience. and I don’t want to project it on others.

  12. Nice job Marty. Do you think that there is any way, as a group, that you guys could still go after Miscavige for the physical abuses? It sounds like because there are so many eyewitnesses (and receivers) of the abuse, that something could be done. No?

  13. martyrathbun09

    Ultimately justice will prevail. I am not exactly certain what form it will take. But it will prevail.

  14. Phenomenal interview. Clear and intelligent and simply put.

    Thanks for doing it and for the link.

  15. I was amazed, when I visited the UK earlier this year, at the civility and intelligence of their public debates, both on TV and the radio (BBC). Clearly this influence is apparent in the CBC, and it is a breath of fresh air compared to the US airwaves and media. They set a standard for “fair and balanced” that is percievable, intellectually honest and allows the listener to form their own opinion without undue bias.
    It is kind of odd the the Church of Scientology would avoid such an opportunity to have one of their own spokespeople on.

    Where did they all go?

  16. Sounds really complicated.


  17. As a historical note, in the original OEC volumes, in vol 7 there are a couple of PL’s titled “International Council” (24 Mar 60 and 9 May 63) where LRH appointed Quentin and Arthur as “Inheriting Members” and Mary Sue as lifetime Chairman of the International Council.

  18. Before I forget, I should mention that I was surprised to hear you talk about how much LRH was into computers and the Internet. Makes a lot of sense as he was always a technical person, Marty.

    The C of S does not really explain that he was a father to the Internet and critics deny it completely.

    Thanks for pointing that out and we hopefully hear more about that.

    I admire LRH since many years and he is the greatest role model to me. Most importantly, he did what he thought was right not what was popular.


  19. Marty,

    Thank you for your response on my question. I completely duplicate you.

  20. Brilliant interview Marty, as usual.

    And thank you for taking the time to individually answer everybody’s questions on the blog. I just got through reading all of the comments and you have outdone yourself. It says a lot about you and is no small task.

  21. Marty by the way great interview. I’d say that was a pass on TR1 🙂

    Melton’s, Melton the very unbiased scholarly type. Nice guy and personally I don’t think of him as an “Apologist” for the Church, as some so called critics do, which is usually anyone who says anything good about Scientology.

    I thought he was right on about the fact that guys like you and us are definitely a bigger threat to the Church than the verdict in France, though he did tend to downplay the importance of the Internet. Probably ’cause he’s old school and doesn’t understand its importance.

    However, over all I thought it was a nice balanced report.

    Regarding exposure to confidential data.

    Well there is the fact that Ron wanted to release Revolt in the Stars which by the way a good screen play if you’re into Sci Fi, like you say.

    Personally I don’t think there’s much danger of wrecking one’s case in being exposed to what the Media calls “OT III”. Maybe if they got the story right it’s possible 🙂

    I think the danger is not so much the materials themselves which are not that much different than what has been covered in earlier lectures and books.

    Probably the biggest danger is running it at the wrong level. Anyone who has ever skipped a few items on a GPM can tell you that!

  22. Excellent interview Marty. Intelligent and straightforward. Thank you.

  23. Very well done, Marty. Great communication.

    What can you tell us about Melton?

  24. Marty, you mentioned Diana. Is she still at Int? I know John left years ago. (although they’ve been divorced for ages) And how about Roanne? Diana at one time was a wonderful ambassador for LRH and did fabulous public events. Any possibility that she could /would leave and become a spokes person for the independent movement?

    She used to be completely independent in spirit ages ago. Defied the GO regarding the Mission Network. She created her own thing for expansion. Mission Office US with John Woodruff for example.

    It’s painful to think of her squashed by DM. Franks did the same to her in the early 80’s.


  25. Well done Marty, this is unheard of in history that so called SPs according to Miscavige labeling system, cry for getting Scientology correctly used. We all know it works! It always has with me for over 20000 hours of practice at all levels.

  26. Marty did a good job; Melton at least did a better job than Tommy Davis. As for apologists, there are three academic whores who pander to Scientology:

    * J. Gordon Melton
    * Massimo Introvigne of CESNUR
    * James R. Lewis, who somehow got Oxford University Press (the US branch) to publish this mealy-mouthed anthology.

  27. Marty — after listening to this very articulate, intelligently asked and answered exchange, these two quotes (and particularly the first one is so applicable to these times) came to mind:

    “During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act.” -G. Orwell

    “Freedom is the right to tell people what they do not want to hear.” -G. Orwell

    Well done, man. Well done…..

  28. Melton has the perspective of an outsider and also is considered an expert in his field. I listened to his interview and as much as I didn’t want to I think he is probably right. I know chuck Beatty has been in contact with him and he’s not a CO$ mouthpiece.
    What makes these defections different than the ones in the early 80’s from a non-scn viewpoint? From that viewpoint indepents look like a bunch of exs who can’t follow the rules so are taking off and are going to play their own game.
    I wish I could have the confidence you all have but I think that would probably take mike and Marty writing up and exposing cos about everything that’s been done over the last 25 years. I do have glimpse of how difficult that might be just from my short 7 years in the sea org.

  29. martyrathbun09

    I think Diana is resigned to stick it out and hope to outlive the dictator and perhaps salvage some of her father’s legacy.

  30. martyrathbun09

    Heber used to keep very tight lines of communication with scholars familiar with the subject, and with Melton in particular. He used to get regularly ridiculed by DM for not having a tighter leash on them, and Melton in particular. Melton, because he tended to be quoted more than the others and tended to acknowledge that an outsider would view Scn in a strange light. Heber ultimately was forced to confess in the Hole that his own viewpoint aligned somewhat with the scholars and allied Christian ministers. Of course he was degraded mercilessly for it. I don’t think he has had the liberty to spend as much time – if any – with such outsiders since 05 or so. So perhaps Melton and the like are speaking even more from their own observation as opposed to indoctrination.

  31. WD ! I liked the Interview. Very simple communication with intelligent content .
    The phrase of DM in 1994 ” that to handle attacks one has just to go in comm. and explain what Scientology really is”. Was that your idea in the beginning ?

  32. Nomnon, thanks for pointing it out. This PL never was canceled by LRH? That means that Arthur not M “inherited” the tech to keep it safe or am I mistaken?

    Were the legal documents that DM got around LRH’s death ever challenged in court?

  33. I think Marty would get even more responses by Scientologists if the media would stop calling him an ex-Scientologist.

  34. Congratulations! A great Interview, very friendly, great TRs.

  35. Poor Heber. I sent an email inquiring about his welfare to his ex-wife Karen a few months ago. She said their son Alexander was “in good contact” with him.

    So why does he stay there? He’s a pretty old guy at this point. Surely he could blackmail DM into financing a nice retirement home or something.

  36. Barney Rubble

    That was the best interview since this whole debacle started. The Canadian lady was well prepared and gave the interview subject space. I think the Canadian media is more relaxed in general, and less wound up. Paul Haggis is a big OL up there as well.

    I thought Marty handled the questions very well, and he didn’t stutter like Tommy Davis’s sound bite.

  37. Mark A. Baker

    “If a reporter asks you why Diana, Arthur, and Suzette Hubbard do not lead the church together instead of Miscavidge, what would you tell him?”

    Why would you think any of them should be running the church? Inheriting the family business? Familial dynasty is not a sound basis for internal government of any institution, and certainly not a religious one.

    The only persons qualified to run any scientology religious organization are TRAINED auditors. And among these I DO NOT include those who either were or are in the SO.

    Only those auditors who have experience with the actuality of helping others AND who also possess a REAL sense and EMPATHY for the human communities they serve possess the necessary qualifications to assume responsibility for organizations dedicated to extending the spiritual technology of scientology to a broad community. The best place to look for such auditors is among the non-SO staff and their non-staff counterparts who have dedicated years of their lives actually attempting to deliver the tech to others desirous of it despite constant roadblocks and interference put in place as “command intention” from higher-ups in the Co$.

    The SO has a completely separate set of internal agendas. It was expressly set up to be Hubbard’s plaything and personal means for constantly interfering in the internal operations of distant orgs and groups. These tendencies have made it wholly unreliable as an institution as well as being the single greatest source of the most egregious abuses and unethical actions conducted on behalf of the Co$.

    In short, the SO is institutionally corrupt and unfit to function, much less lead. The subject of scientology would no doubt have progressed much further had the SO never been created.

  38. Marty, you might want to change the link to this one: which links to the date in question. The main page will change on Monday when a new episode airs.

    Keep up the good work. And Yeah, GO CANADA! LOL (CBC lover from way back)

  39. Hearing how DM has treated (or is treating) Heber just makes me sick. Heber is one of the old time greats that somehow stuck it out. I really hope Heber comes to his senses, gets out and joins us. He really seemed like a bright, incredibly aware guy.

  40. Marty, IMHO you’re doing a stellar job of being communicating transparency, coming across as authentically honest and earnest. No BS, no grandstanding. The contrast is beautiFUL. Thanks so much for doing the interview and sharing it. Yours and a few other keys sites are my daily “fix” of sanity and encouragement about the possibility of reform. Please keep it up. xoxo

  41. Mark,
    I’ve tossed about your drivel on other forums. Had even a modicum of fun at it. This one is just too absurd. Sort of a dead gopher on the table, called ‘supper’. It’s not food, it’s not edible. It’s just a dead gopher.

    How about, geez if it wasn’t for LRH, this whole scinotlagagraphyu would be just dandy. For heaven’s sake, this is just beyond the pale. I think you must be technically, what they call an ‘imbecile’.

    On a serious note, do you have two left hands?

  42. Why am I 1.1 on the tone scale ?

  43. Many of the poeple writing on this blog have an understanding of Scn. The question is not about the Tech. You know it works and LRH wanted a better planet where individuals could exist without all the crap we see on a daily basis. The tech is definately helping people every day and improving lives. Right now there is no other group trying so hard to help. You have a problem with managment not the tech. I hope that you have a purpose in what you are creating because ultimately people who could be helped and lives bettered will not reach for help after reading or hearing your stories. You need to be specific about your purpose – getting ethics applied is different to harming a whole organization trying to help. Marty, you are trained enough to know that putting cash in your pockets now from interviews while harming a dedicated group has nothing to do with ethics. You in no way are trying to handle the source of the problem. We all come back and that might just be a litte crappy for all who are pounding there chests in victory on this blog. Your next time around does not look bright and neither does mine or anyones elses. Focus on the problem and stop harming well-intentioned people and useful tech.

  44. NM,
    For some reason, you’ve posted here with what is recognized by any who have read and understood the Auditor’s Code as a chance to violate it. It’s a ‘loaded’ question. I’m sure if you want to understand the Tone Scale and maybe even you yourself get an idea of wherever on it you may sit, even to the extent of having more than one position and not only that, able to fluidly move around on it, you’d be best to read Handbook for Preclears and Self Analysis and do the exercises in them. They’ve got one where you can begin to plot your own position and begin to be able to move it freely. That may contrast with the bondage idea though. Consider it as ‘role playing’ and have fun. Really.

  45. martyrathbun09

    Alexis, Your “status” is betrayed by your facile use of lies, a Tommy D/DM trademark. I haven’t made a red cent from putting ethics in on Miscavige. Quite the contrary, I have foresaken quite a bit of material comfort – more so in the past nine months alone than Miscavige has in his entire life. Unfortunately, you seem to have become a product of the organization that has systematically reversed LRH tech. In particular, the hiding of Grade IV technology. You sound about as certain as one can get about his rightness – defending an interloper who characterizes his own name as “the most famous name in Scientology.” I am utterly aware that we all come back and my certainty of that was a strong motivation for doing what I do day in and day out. If you ever get to experience the miracles of Grade IV tech – which is probably only possible outside the Ch of Miscavology – you will regain the ability to observe again and will find out that in fact I, and all those who working on putting ethics in, are doing so for the ultimate benefit of people like you.

  46. Alexis,
    You mention that we have a problem with ‘management not the tech’. Reread your ethics materials. When admin is out, tech is out and ethics is long gone. The remedy is to put in enough ethics so that tech goes in and the admin procedures function to facilitate actual products. The actual product of any Scn org is well trained and thoroughly audited pcs.

    My dear, THAT’S what this is all about, as you appear to at least acknowledge.

    You also say ‘you are in no way trying to handle the source of the problem’. OK, I don’t figure you are going to answer my question, but I’ll put it there anyway. You’ve acked there is a ‘problem’. What do YOU think the source of it is?

    You’ve exhorted Marty, and by extension the rest of us, to ‘focus on the problem’. If you have an intention to guide us to a more workable action, then first we’ll have to agree on the problem you’ve mentioned. Again, what do you think that is?

  47. Alexis, I don’t know where you’re coming from, please clarify regarding the doingness you suggest.

    You are in the fire too. Once someone is aware of all this new information you can either decide to:

    -Help DM
    -Hurt DM (get rid of him)
    -Do nothing

    By doing nothing your track is still not off the hook as it’s omission, more serious than commission case wise apparently. By helping DM, you would be doing what you “think” we are doing, destroying Scientology. Ethics allows no recourse to tricking yourself in going along with the group and simply not thinking for yourself. Keep that in mind when everyone’s dressed up nicely and applauding at the next event: What is the actual TRUTH, and will you harm your track by hiding within the false security of the group?

    So as you can see, the situation calls for intensive study of this website and the ones it links to and the truth rundown videos on etc. There’s enough statistical data to do a valid doubt formula with due diligence at this time, so you can’t hide from it that way either. Who’s approval are you seeking and have you allowed that to enter into your doubt formula? That’s one question that might help.

  48. Concerned Citizen

    Frankly Alexis, I’m as dedicated a scientologist as they come, I have dedicated my life to the furtherance of its aims. And I truly believe in a lot of people in the Church, even some very deep in. Why? Because I know them, I have not left and I do not plan on leaving. Yet I see how what Marty says is very true. I have the certainty that Marty did the only thing he could. I wish I could help you understand just how much courage that takes, and how vital his actions are to the survival of our religion. You are of course entitled to your opinion, I believe that many scientologists have not experienced this abuse directly and finding it so contrary to the tenets of the church, cannot believe it. Just keep applying the tech, getting results to the best of your ability, if and when you run into this phenomena, thanks to Marty, whom you so callously accuse of profiteering, we will be here for you to have a stable datum so you won’t have to live through what many of us had to. You see, where you fail to understand us, we do not fail to understand you.

Leave a Reply

Fill in your details below or click an icon to log in: Logo

You are commenting using your account. Log Out /  Change )

Twitter picture

You are commenting using your Twitter account. Log Out /  Change )

Facebook photo

You are commenting using your Facebook account. Log Out /  Change )

Connecting to %s