by JB
One of the items of “evidence” collected is “Apple I-Phone, #G, Model 16 GIG, Serial #82011479A3NP with charger and headphones.” However, I took my iPhone with me when I blew and absolutely did not leave it behind. What does this mean? Are they saying they have my iPhone? Did they load it with some “manufactured evidence”?
It is described in more than one place that the “RTC Administration Building” is a locked building. Sorry, not true. I was the RTC Estates Manager and I would have known if the building was ever kept locked. Never. Maybe now, but never while I was there.
It says I departed at approximately 0730 hrs on 22 April, 2010. That is approximately correct, but I think it was earlier. However it states that I then returned at around 0900, attended a roll call, and then exited again at approximately 1030 hrs. Never happened! I left early and never returned for any roll call. There was a morning roll call regularly at 0930 hrs. I never went to this ever. Is Warren McShane trying to cover his ass with DM by saying I was being somewhat controlled? Why would he lie about this?
Warren McShane also states the motorcycle picture was taken by Yvonne Gonzalvez, using my personal camera. Sorry, I took the photo. See the attached photo from the same series where I (oops!) caught my reflection in the motorcycle mirror.
Why all these lies?
Moving On Up a Little Higher 
“Why all the lies?”
Insanity?
I think what they’re saying is, We can’t keep our lies straight anymore…
JB,
Seems to me that Warren’s strong suit is just lying as mentioned yesterday by Marty. Just don’t think that he can discern either side of the coin these days and I feel for him as those things will stick for him on the time track and will not as-is. There are differences of personal integrity and lying or continuing to live with Lies just shows where a being is at.
As some old Greek said:
“Truly, to tell lies is not honorable;
but when the truth entails tremendous ruin,
To speak dishonorably is pardonable.”
Sophocles
What kind of tremendous ruin is Warren CYAing? Famous words like, “I am not a crook!”?
Yep JB,
That’s you all right.
You got little Davey again. BTW is that TC’c bike or DM’s. Either way that’s a real pretty paint job on that bike. Very professionally done. How much you suppose a paint job like that costs? Maybe I’ll get one for myself after I finish the kitchen. Of course I’ll have to get an expensive bike like that one first. If I had any money left after the Cof$ got done with me. Or is that, I got done with it?
Take care JB and enjoy the hell out of your freedom.
R
I will repeat my comment from yesterday’s post, it is even more applicable as the data and lies are uncovered:
Dave Miscaviage, et al….. are damned if they do and damned if they don’t. You can’t claim that Warren McShane is a liar, therefore you can’t believe what he says in this police report. If you walk that path, then all the other 30+ years worth of declarations by Warren McShane become null and void. So how many cases have legal declarations been made by Warren that helped the church? That is a lot of skeletons in the closet you don’t want to let out!
Eventually the truth will prevail, it always does whether you want it to or not!
What a bunch of pond scum.
What do you expect from the RTC Liar I/C?
But yah, I expect they all lie to DM. He is so far gone he PREFERS the lies, as the truth is too hard for him to handle.
Excerpt fromHCOPL 4 April 1972
“HONESTY is the road to SANITY. You can prove that and do prove it every time you make somebody well by “pulling his withholds.” The insane are just one seething mass of overt acts and withholds. And they are very physically sick people. .
When you let somebody be dishonest, you are setting him up to become
physically ill and unhappy. Traditional Sea Org ethics labeled noncompliance as Liability and a false report as Doubt.
And it’s true enough.
When you let a person give nothing for something, you are factually encouraging crime.”
And this is at the TOP of the Org Board.
No wonder the Orgs are empty.
And I expect McShane will be sent to “MEST Work Forever” over this…and DM will stock up on the scotch and re-work out his escape plan.
I also wonder WHAT ELSE JB has pictures of? 😉
Hello JB,
‘So glad to hear from you and get your valuable insights.
I want to share a couple of observations from someone on the outside looking in;
By stating that Yvonne Gonzalvez took the picture in question? It establishes that the picture is not your property (we now know that to be false).
McShane had to lie about the roll call to cover his ass for all the times he marked you off as “present” – and did so again that day. (Did you catch that Dave?).
The RTC building was reported to be ‘always locked’ (which we now know to be false) so that any other ‘suspects’ could be eliminated from the possibility of deleting the computer files you are accused of doing, i.e. “it could only be JB”.
“The administration building is a locked building” – McShane.
The ‘found’ iphone is a plant, as you have correctly surmised, that is now loaded with damaging “evidence” – to be used against you.
Apparently David Miscavige can’t even rely on his most trusted liars anymore.
The cult the Golden COB – in a black monogrammed thong.
As it stands now – a mess of MEST.
Great job Dave.
JB
Thanks for posting this.
It is very un-church like to LIE LIE LIE LIE.
But DM’s cult produces a tissue of lies as a kind of defense, even with such Internet transparency.
There are huge lies on their hate sites. Literally manufactured out of thin air. There are no concepts of TRUTH, HONOR, INTEGRITY left in DM’s cult.
Marty stated an important paragraph in his last blog ~~
Quote:
Now, a little back story before I continue. Miscavige told me on several occasions that there was one reason and one reason alone that Warren McShane remained in RTC after the 1987 take over. That is, “Warren is such a good liar, who else is going to handle RTC depositions and declarations?” Miscavige told McShane to his face that if it weren’t for his lying abilities he’d be busted to Gold to do MEST work the rest of his life.
Unquote
One thing Warren did for DM is divorce his wife Marcella (Marcy) ~ his wife of 30 years because it was a DM ordered the divorce.
Ahhhhhh the devotion and the compliance.
However, I support Jackson’s last post where he offers safe passage to Warren……
Just how much ABUSE can a staff member take ? Is there no limit to the sadistic punishments DM can mete out ?
Joe Pendleton :
Dear Joe,
Thank you for your comments well received and the points you make (last blog)
Take the example of Marty and JB visiting INT base when they spoke spoke to Lisa Allen Shroer on the cell phone.
https://markrathbun.wordpress.com/2010/06/06/the-citadel/
QUOTE:
We also called the cell phone of the guard who has been watching former CO Gold (Lisa Allen Shroer) for the two years since her blow. I instructed the guard to hand the phone to Lisa and she complied. I told Lisa that JB and I were at the gate ready to escort her out safely. Apparently two years of black Dianetics sec checking, isolation, constant electronic and human surveillance had taken its toll and she not so politely declined. At least she knows she’s got friends when she comes to again.
UNQUOTE
Joe ~~ I believe that one can be so smashed, so pulverized, so overwhelmed, so broken spiritually that one is not UP to the departure of leaving INT Base with all the unknowns of a new life, penniless and with the threats that have been laid in for years. Lisa has been brutalized more than others. I think I read she was placed in isolation for 2 years straight yet she would not leave with Marty and JB on a rescue.
Are you familiar with what he did to Marc Yager, an original LRH watch messenger and the 2nd in command of all of Scientology as WDC Chairman back in the day ?
https://markrathbun.wordpress.com/2010/05/30/marc-yager-and-the-ias/
DM beat, punched, pummeled, struck Mike Rinder and Marc Yager more than anyone else. Mike Rinder did have the spirit and enough free theta to leave and what he and Marty and JB did, to leave the Guantanomo Bay prison is monumental.
DM is famous for saying “I have friends in high places, and if you blow, I will destroy you utterly”. These threats have been pretty much IMPLANTED in the minds of the overwhelmed inmates for a period of time.
Then of course, I am sure you are only too aware of the Stockholm Syndrome.
Stockholm syndrome is a term used to describe a paradoxical psychological phenomenon wherein hostages express adulation and have positive feelings towards their captors ~~Feelings of trust or affection felt in certain cases of kidnapping or hostage-taking by a victim toward a captor.
This is my evaluation of why so many don’t speak up and leave.
GREAT!!!!! JB …ONE BY ONE ALL THE LIES WILL BE SEEN… GOOD FOR YOU….LOVE U!!!!
Great question, JB – why all these lies?
I like your theories: They’re trying to set you up, and McShane is trying to cover his own ass.
And perhaps also out of:
1. Fear – They lie to cover up truth and its consequences.
2. Habit – They’ve been lying so long that lying now seems normal.
3. Stupidity – Their ability to evaluate is so bad they can’t tell how transparent their lies are.
4. Arrogance – They believe they’re superior to others and can lie with impunity.
5. The urge to create – Lying is creative – at a very low level to be sure, but it is creative.
Just Me
It could be that Warren is telling the current lies to cover for past lies. You can be sure it’s become a tangled mess for him having to remember what he said, who he said it to and the toughest part of all, did his original lies involve other people. Then they’d have to lie too. What if they forget to lie? What if they get some parts of the lie incorrect?
At some point it all starts to unravel and it looks like that’s already started. If Warren were smart he’d get out of Dodge while he’s still got the chance.
A bit of topic: Marty or JB what do you know about The Church of Scientology’s Influence in the Anti Human trafficking Organization CAST ? Their efforts are alsoo aimed at SO members that want out. What an enormously twisted concept by the way.
http://ocmb.xenu.net/ocmb/viewtopic.php?t=32760&sid=0a52b63b7cf391b8cf8c2398f6c16484
Well, do they have your iPhone? Does the one you have have the same serial number? I cannot see how this can be.
Memorandum to: David MissCabbage
from: Tom Gallagher
cc: The Known Universe
August 20, 2010
Dear Dave,
Yea buddy! You’re a total f**k up. After all these years those big bad chickens are coming home to roost. You see there IS a point of finale. It has, factually, already occurred. I know I could say to you “come up to present time” but it wouldn’t indicate would it? Little stuck there, huh?
My thought has been: “Why don’t you just go away”? Tuck your pointed tail between your legs and go. Otherwise it’s inevitable that you’ll go out in shackles.
On second thought: Never mind! I sincerely want to see you do the “perp walk”. You’ve singularly earned it.
Disrespectfully yours,
Tom
Hi Marty, JB and Mike,
Agreed, COB’s spendings are luxurious. Simple office building would have done just fine. A simple golf cart to tour the INT base instead of an expensive motor bike to impress movie stars and eating the food that other SO members eat would be a lot more appropriate for a religious leader.
You say, he did hit staff but there are no medical records. Without evidence, you guys don’t have much.
But I’m still waiting on the smoking gun, you guys. I need evidence of DM’s secret bank accounts, etc.
JB!! Thanks for more of the truth. Keep it coming brother man.
Check out this song, entitled Lies:
Karen, beautiful lady, Miscavige is spying on some of you with PIs. Why not rising donations to hire a PI who spies Miscavige out (past and present)? Private bank accounts? Secret connections? Affairs? Anything else off-policy?
Why all these lies?
“Oh what a tangled web we weave when first we practice to deceive”
The spider is caught in it’s own trap.
JB — Priceless! As we all know, if there is a bigger liar than Warren its Yvonne.
I can see it now. Dear Leader is crapping himself over the photos while Yvonne is driving him to see Tom so he could explain how they (the big thetans) were being attacked by the DBs (a week before you had been a big being). Yvonne is doing an Angie: “Oh myyyy Gooodddd, gag gag gag, oh Sir, that is SOOOO gross. And he is a LIAR Sir. I took those photos.” as she smiles and he congratulates her for being so smart. “Lou, Get that piece of shit McShane on the phone… Warren, COB here. You fucking moron you didnt even know that Yvonne took those photos not JB you incompetent cocksucker. Of course, as usual, I have to investigate and find out everything. You’re an SP on my lines. Go back to sucking Yager’s cock. Bye.”
And for those of you who have never been there — this is not in any way exaggerated.
As to “Why these lies?” I feel this applies:
“Now, a thetan on the other hand, all out of thin air, has as his greatest accomplishment the ability to create, form, maintain, a universe. So when he has this ability of creating a universe, this dims out so that he’s not doing it very intelligently. And he sees a bunch of things in the universe that he doesn’t want to look at ― he gets a dispersal there ― he combines these two talents. So the universe he builds is below the level of the current universe he’s in. And you have to bring him north to find out he’s in a trap.” (15 Junly 1957, Scientology and Effective Knowledge)
To find out where one is, one needs to look in spite of such dispersals.
Dave-
One other thought- I hope you’ve enjoyed the $70 million McPalace. Your next one measures 5 x 9′. Room mate included.
JB, there is a bit of impish mischievousness and irony in your posts that I believe would make for a great book telling your story.
How about a double-briefing from the shack, with Marty and JB.
The little one might just have a coronary over that!
LOL Mike! You are too much!
Thanks for the graphics – you tell it so well.
I will sleep tonight in delicious merriment.
Doubt it. As iPhones are glued shut and cannot be easily opened to remove battery or SIM card, I took it with me. (After all, it was mine. A “Xmas gift from Dave and all of RTC which was instrumental in my seeing some truth via full Internet connectivity!) 35 miles out after I blew, I destroyed it, SIM card and all and literally scattered the hundred pieces irrecoverably. So, I don’t have it anymore and cannot verify the serial number.
Now say you’re sorry and send DM an extra reel of copper wire.
Mike, you are so spot on in your description of a TYPICAL reaction! I am still laughing! Definitely not an exaggeration whatsoever!
Rooster, you rock. Thanks and good to see you commenting here!
JB,
Thanks for more specifics on the ongoing criminal operations at DM/RTC/INT. Some need it in the face. As such, that curtain closes. However, tomorrow’s a new day. The sun shines newly upon us.
ML, Tom Gallagher
Spot on Karen. It takes courage. But once you do it, it is oh, so rewarding! C’mon Warren and anyone else…give it a go!
All these lies? Because they can’t keep track of their own asses using both hands.
SpanishSeaOrgNewLurker.
No. This is unnecessary.
Every departure from the Church can give us more insight.
PLEASE READ new “DM Directive” on Flag.
NEW STORY
I have been in Scientology for over 25 years. During that time I trained to Class V Interned in Milan. I have never been on staff.
I have been a rather successful businessman and always had gains in Scientology auditing and Rundowns until the year 2001, when for a reason that is a yet unclear to me,
I was made to do 10 intensives of sec-check, mainly cleaning cleans, once spending 3 hours on a question that asked if I had been a member of the CIA, when I am an Italian
Citizen and my only trips to the United States have been to get auditing in Clearwater, Florida, at the Flag Land Base.
My auditors at Flag, when I told them I felt clean, were, while in session, intensely hostile to me. More than once when I was literally driven to despair and on the edge of bursting in a cry of despair,
pursing what I felt
was a false read, I was told by my Flag auditors, with contempt in their voice, to “knock it off”. and “fess off to the withold”
I was made to redo Solo NOTs all over again, when I felt there was nothing wrong with it. I was told that it was IMPOSSIBLE to get a blow or EP of a process on
that level unless I had a blowdown on each and every action. This is based on a confidential “Directive” blow anything written by David Miscavige that
“anyone who claims to get a blow or process EP on Solo NOTs without a full Blowdown is simply at the case level of “DUB-IN” and imagining things. When I politely queries that a
non-LRH directive could not alter LRH written HCOBs, I was immediately routed to Ethics and told in unclear that questioning the validity of the writings of David Miscavige
was in itself a suppressive act.
I was sent back for more sec-checking. Each time I said I had an ARCX, a disagreement or even the few times I burst into tears, I was asked one question and one question only: “What withold has been missed”.
I somehow managed to get through the wall of sec-checking and the redo of Solo NOTs, at a cost of more than 80,000 Euros, once I learned the valuable session that it
is no longer safe to tell what one thinks in session, and the only other choice
given to me by the Ethics officer, over unquestioning obedience was being declared a Supressive person and that each of my Scientology employees (more than a dozen of them)
would be told to disconnect from a destructively as possible, the goal being apparently to make me bankrupt and destitute in the process.
I redid OT VIII on the Freewinds. This was not a pleasant experience. Even the few times I was allowed to go on shore, I was being continually watched by my HCO Escort, (security guard)
in a manner that was reminiscent of the treatment given to Westerners when they visited and Iron Curtain country at the height of the Cold War..
I started to question within myself what level of Degradation Scientology had fell into…
In the 5 years since I “completed” OT VII and VIII for the second time, I found myself, for the first time in my life not doing well and in a state of apathy toward
my life, my family and my business.
(he goes on to say that he got auditing outside the Church by a well known auditor and turned his life around…he is fine now)
Dear Karen,
You have trounced on a point of honor of ours…
We have an open invitation to anyone in the SO who needs a waylay on their way to freedom. Marty has touched on this subject several times. These folks need an Underground Railroad in real time.
So, in a new unit of time, we make that offer. Midwest charm and comfort. Mary Beth, my sister (and by the way R.N. of the year at a major hospital) have a guest room waiting. We can make the offer to two.
No strings attached. M&M have the specifics.
Let’s go.
The Gallaghers
Karen – you described it completely. One can be so pulverized, fractured, beaten that there isn’t an ounce of strength left (AKA theta) to formulate a plan.
Lest we not forget — one has to FORMULATE an escape plan.
It’s heartbreaking.
WH
I believe the Stockholm Syndrome is a manifestation of the phenomenon LRH talks about in the HCOB “You Can Be Right”. Discussed is how a being holds on to being “right” all the way to the bitter end. These people essentially held as prisoners at Int have rounded the bend (dropped down the awareness characteristics) to where their being in that situation IS right!
A harmonic of this seems to exist by those held “captive” by the PR of the C of Misc. It MUST be true (right) — the alternative is too hard to confront.
Undoing this is done one on one by raising awareness and whereas LRH always said, regarding dissem, “Let them read a book” now I’d suggest “Read a blog!” (preferably this one).
The roman senator and historian Tacitus (AD 56 – AD 117) wrote: “It is human nature to hate the man whom you have hurt”.
No where is this more evident than in the vindictive and punitive nature of the acts being perpetrated against Marty, Mike, JB and others who have suffered at the hands if the church.
From the Tao:
“The Master leads
by emptying peoples minds
and filling their cores,
/by weakening their ambition
and toughening their resolve.
He helps people lose everything
they know, everything they desire,
and creates confusion/
in those who think that they know.
Practice not doing,
and everything will fall into place”.
Ne
The Black Keys on Marty’s blog?
Now I know for sure I’m in the right place.
Karen #1,
Thank you. When a person is indoctrinated, incarcerated and brainwashed to that extent – they go into despair and think that the whole world is the same. In that wise they are unable to put two and two together and take opportunities to change their environment.
The dictionary definition of despair is: “The utter loss of all hope”:
Despair is pretty easy to get flat on.
Try getting flat on terror. Now there’s a toughie.
Ne
Mike, You omitted the rest: after this post, Miscavige rips Warren, “you stupid c———, you told the Sheriff Yvonne took the picture. Where in the f— did you get that idea?” Of course, Warren would never even dare say the truth, “from you, Sir”. And Miscavige knows it, so he rubs it in further, “look at him Jenny! He’s a pie face, can’t even answer my question.” Miscavige flips and chucks an OEC vol 0 at Warren’s head, thinking ‘It ain’t worth the paper its written on, might as well get some use from it.” And Jenny and Lou start gagging, oooogggghh, snort, etc… You know the drill.
Thanks Mike.
The audience of this website need to hear the language and vulgarity of the head of a “Church”. DM wants to be looked on with the same status as the POPE of the Catholic Church.
Here’s the kind of language David Miscavige uses (over and over) ~~
QUOTE
Anyway most of the times these beating occur is when these guys are supposed to tell DM what has been done to handle some thing or handle some flap. The problems start to surface and then people start getting whacked. Most of the time Marc Yager and Guillaume Lesevre and company have nothing to say which by itself, earns them a good beating most of the time! Now here is a good one. The is an actual quote from DM. He is talking to Marc Yager and Guillaume Lesevre about their “expansion speeches” for an event. The speeches suck as they always do and he tells them that “the only expansion either of them has caused – was with their dicks in each other’s asshole!” This is an actual direct quote from DM!!!
Since GL’s wife left years ago and MY split up with his wife, MY & GL have been living with each other and the running joke (and INT Base) has been that they are gay. They have been routinely questioned by DM if they are fucking each other.
So there you have it. A “Church” with a leader at the helm that speaks to his immediate juniors like this.
Far be it for you to tell us what we need.
Tom, a little deletion done. Hope you don’t mind. You almost slipped from suddent to sadistic.
Mike,
I literally gagged even through the second read. I’ll be polite and leave it at that.
Tom Gallagher
Secret Lurker — wow. I’ll get right onto it for you and give you a call when I have the package ready. Until then, don’t do anything rash or jump to any conclusions.
Marty-
You’re right. This is public. Thanks!
I still feel a little vindictive, though.
Sincerely, Tom
You’re right Marty. But even that isnt the end of the story. As soon as Jenny leaves the room, he starts telling whoever is left “That little slut wants to fuck me. Didnt you see the look on her face. Lou, get Tits on the phone… Jenny, its COB, get Yager’s cock out of your mouth. Why were you looking at me that way?” etc etc
Ummm…
Sounds like Manipulative Dwarf has a lie factory issue he needs auditing for.
ML.
Meisha
sadly, it is no joke, this exchange here.
Tom,
Get a punching bag, dial up some metal rock on your ipod, and let her rip. Or, chop a cord of wood. You’ll feel like a million bucks after balancing the inflow of too much entheta with some heatlhy outflow.
Marty
That was really smart to smash your Iphone. Iphones store all kinds of stuff permanently. RTC probably loaded up the phony Iphone because they know how the police love to scour those things for evidence, but I’m sure it will backfire on them. Welcome to the Golden Age of Lying.
Thanks. The lies are surely plain as day. Exposing is near effortless actually!
SpanishSO: “You say, he did hit staff but there are no medical records.”
Huh? SpanishSO, you act like this is a “He said” vs. “She said”. But in actuality it’s a “He said” vs. “The Entire Neighborhood said”.
There are more than a dozen people that have come forward with firsthand, eyewitness accounts of Miscavige’s violence and abuse. At this point, Miscavige isn’t even willing to come forward and personally deny it anymore — though many journalists have offered it to him. Miscavige is in hiding at this point, hoping that he can Black PR Mike and Marty fast enough before people like you wake up to the obvious.
Time to step up your confront of evil my friend.
http://scientologymyths.com/
Sadly, Mike, I figured you might even have toned it down.
It’s so disgusting and degrading…
Glad you’re out to tell the truth.
I feel sorry for those still in, I really do.
It seems to me that these lies and evidence as submitted to the RSO in a complaint and meeting did not achieve anything, and Warren had a failed mission. I suppose the lies are for getting JB in trouble.
Leaving a suppressive scene with your personal stuff is not a crime, what’s Warren trying to achieve with this? Just saying yessir again to dear leader?
Mike: Totally agree on Yvonne the liar. Some personal property of mine which I valued very much consisting of hand written personal notes from LRH, JT, Kirstie, TC, Lee Purcell and others were confiscated by Sutter. He swore he gave them to Yvonne and she just lied to my face as to having had them.
JB, thanks so much for the data you’ve shared. As the last one out (or at least the last one we know of) your info is valuable. I respect you immensely and love hearing everything you have to say.
M&M, you guys crack me up. That you can take the tragedy of this major SP being in the position he’s in with the foul mouth that he has, and make it funny as hell is a testament to this blog. We won’t win by getting serious about it all. We’ll win because we can spot the truth and communicate it freely, and also far and wide. You guys are at just the right tone level.
I witnessed what must be hundreds of these conversations. DM’s mouth is so foul because his mind is in the gutter. After I was told he was offloading my husband of 17 years from the Sea Org and I would therefore need to divorce, I walked back to my office where DM was mid-meeting and he spent the next 5 minutes telling everyone there how I looked like I had a cricket bat shoved up my ass. Verbal abuse IS a serious form of abuse and DM specializes in it – most of the time done with a shit-eating grin on his face as if he thinks he has dominated you with his intense vomit mouth.
Karen, thanks for adding the needed depth and details to my response. I do realize that it isn’t quite as easy or simple as I implied. I know in my own case of leaving, it was much, much easier by ORDERS OF MAGNITUDE than it would have been for a Sea Org member who had been physically, mentally and spiritually supressed over a long period of time (in a geographically isolated area yet).
I am familiar with the Stockholm Syndrome and have read accounts of other studies dealing with the psychology of group agreement; the craving for group agreement and validation, despite any evil the particular group might be involved in. Though LRH touches on this in KSW and other places, this is NOT a point that is ever stressed within the Scientology third dynamic (I’ve never even heard it mentioned by others). My own opinion is that we (including LRH?) felt that by going OT and Clear and being aware of being aware, we would not be susceptable to these dramatizations; that we were too enlightened. Or that by doing the PTS/SP Course (which most of us have done more than one time) that we would be somehow “immune” to heavy 3D suppression. I think we are “sadder but wiser” about this now.
In the “next” Scientology third dynamic cycle, we need to make sure that individual rights of self-determinism and freedoms of expression, thought and movement are explicity recognized and vigilantly safeguarded. And also that we stress these freedoms as group values, and that we stress these values on a continual basis so that it is very clear to all, that these values are a very important part of what we believe.
Alex. I think you are spot on with your observations.
Karen #1,
Wonderful take on why Lisa Schroer (and so many others at Int) allow themselves to be physically and verbally abused, yet insist on defending their abuser.
One thing I’d like to add is that long before social researchers coined the phrase “the Stockholm syndrome”, LRH summed up this phenomenon perfectly in two sentences:
“GET OVERWHELMED ENOUGH BY SOMETHING AND ONE SUDDENLY STARTS TO LIKE IT.
“IT’S A HARMONIC ON THE JOY OF BEING EATEN.”
HCOB 9 February 1969
(Thanks to the great research job done at FriendsofLRH.org in digging up this gem.)
SpanishSeaOrgLurker:
Is this a dastardly way of saying, “Yeah, but who’s gonna believe it? Where’s the proof? No medical records. (ha ha)”
That’s right down there with the evil glint as a sadist tortures his victim in a soundproof basement miles from anywhere saying, “Go ahead and scream.”
Who’s going to believe the hundreds of people stepping up, the thousands who have left (who didn’t go to a doctor for being slapped and verbally abused)? Right? Is that what you’re saying? Did I misunderstand, or are you gloating over being that good?
P.S. Secret bank account is your red herring (not the only smoking gun, holy smoked mackerel) Reread Marty’s report for the evidence that nails (just a few) lies….as in perjury. Can you smell it now?
I was at the Int bases (La Quinta and Hemet) for nearly 27 years and around DM for many of those years, especially from 1987 to 2003 when I left. I can absolutely corroborate what Karen #1 says here about the vulgarity of DM’s language. DM has an office full of personal staff who have instructions to delete any foul mouthed rages and rants from their transcriptions of his meetings with other staff. People can come out of a meeting with this guy and their eyebrows are singed just from the language he uses. The disrespect he will show others knows no limits, including what he once said he wanted to do to Mary Sue with a wire brush. And I guarantee you, whatever you are imagining right now, what DM said was more disgusting. And this from the supposedly respected leader of a worldwide religion. Listen, folks, we’ve all had our moments of cognitive dissonance. Life becomes clearer when you wake up and smell the evil emanating from certain quarters.
JB, the I-Phone Int Base claims was yours had to have been activated in your name by OSA or a third party. This constitutes identify theft. A person has to show ID to register a cell phone; usually a driver’s license. If a third party used a phony drivers’ license to pose as you in order to register an I-Phone, then that is a secondary crime.
I suggest you file a police report in whatever state you are living. Tell the police you are the victim of identity theft. If Int Base has filed a false police report and registered a cell phone in your name in order to create phony evidence, then this turns into a serious matter.
Each I-Phone has an IMEI number. When you were given your phone, a sales transaction was created when it was purchased. The IMEI number was recorded when AT&T activated your cell phone. The phony I-Phone has an IMEI number that will not match the activation record. Essentially, you can catch OSA, or whomever did this. There are forensic tools that can be used by the police, the FCC, and Apple to prove fraudulent cell phone registration and/or identity theft.
Furthermore, every photo taken by a digital camera has a unique signature traceable to the semiconductor, or chip, on the camera. If the I-Phone Int Base claims is yours does not reproduce the same signature when used to take a test photo, then they are lying. The police know and use digital photo signatures in crime investigations.
IMO, Int Base is in waaaaaay over its head on this one. Even a good PI cannot escape IMEI numbers or digital photo signatures!
/////
Mike ad Marty, I know you’re not exaggerating about DM’s rants, nor trying to create sensation on the blog. This is how he speaks. Worse, this is how he thinks. And he makes it appear like when it comes from him it’s “correctly included confront of evil” and when someone else speaks crude and true, it’s “joking and degrading” or “black PR”. It’s the misuse of LRH words and data that’s the worse killer.
Marty playin’ the piano…
Thank you JB!!
If people like DM were really smart they would really take care of their “people” instead of make nothing of them and most of all to make them feel they can be disposed of at any time.
But they treat their staff as objects, you get awarded sometimes when they feel their pride is sadisfy and hit others time. There is no stability.
It is all a lie starting from the importance and power they think they has…
Thank you for bringing more sanity (truth)
love
Geez. Wow. First, I am amazed at how you covered yourself. Cut SIM cards, everything laid out when you left, destroyed iPhone. My guess (and I don’t expect you to reply) is that you either only copied files that truly were personal, or copied files that were dynamite if released. If personal files only, there is no hint of crime. If dynamite, it would be foolish to press the issue on the part of DM and ilk.
Second, I am amazed that having to cover yourself in this manner was necessary. I have a family member who blew the RPF back in “the day” (before RTC), and the person just walked out, and a team was frantic trying to get the person back, but once it was clear the person was done with the SO (not Scn), that was it. The person paid the “freeloader” debt, and actually was on NSO staff here and there, and even did gigs for OSA (this, again, was a while back).
Nowadays, they send out the goon squad and posse and publicly defame in the most juvenile way.
I was on staff at Flag in the mid seventies. It was VERY serious. Stupidly serious. Everything required a $100K bond, and “your eyes only” correspondence. It actually screwed me up for it to be that serious, because honest mistakes can happen, except that on staff at the time, it was SABOTAGE. I was not doing renos at the time, but mistakes on the order of a non-trained drywaller accidently hitting a nail too hard and breaking the paper were SABOTAGE. I was not trained in PTS tech at the time, and I blew down later when I saw that people who are PTS and under suppression make mistakes.
So, even then, with teenaged CMO witches deballing every guy in town (uh, I guess I have some charge there :-)) and teenaged minions like DM and Marc Yager shouting orders that had to come from the whole track because they sure did not come from this lifetime experience, even when the Flag RPF slept in the Ft. Harrison parking lot, you could STILL walk out the door and go home. Sure, someone would be upset and try to call you or perhaps try to “recover” you.
Not to say it was easy. There was still disconnection and all that. It was NOT easy. But, now you have blatantly criminal activity? Fabrication of evidence? Perjury? The SO members who had MEST back in the day had MEST because they were already wealthy when they joined up. No one was making any money from the SO, I can assure you. Ingber had money, so he could drive his very pretty Sunbeam Tiger around Pac. But the money did not come from parishioners as far as I know. In fact, the only people I knew who truly did well on staff were independently wealthy types who had “FU” money and could walk off whenever they wanted. EVERYONE ELSE LIVED VERY SIMPLY. I was in a room with five other guys, some of whom had high-powered posts. Didn’t matter – you were in shared berthing.
So, now we have this. It seems to me we have two classes of “victims” here. One class is the staff members who live this crap, mostly out of the public eye so the public does not really see it. It is unreal to them. The second class is the public Scientologists themselves, who are, if they are truly bought into it, drained dry, dry, dry – and mishandled to boot.
There is one major problem with this scenario: One of the definitions of Scientologist is “A Scientologist in not a victim.” (from the victim HCOBs in late 50’s). What do we have now but a church full of victims? So, can they really be Scientologists?
Good work, JB.
Thanks for the good news here, including the telling communication style of the “Scn Pope”.
Yes, it’s good news indeed. It’s a statement that this “pope” is truly beyond recovery.
History has shown that such people can still do a lot of damage. But finally they disappear or get swept away somehow. No exception possible.
The only question left is WHEN this will happen.
WikiLeaks, the whistle-blowing website that drew the ire of the White House by releasing 90,000 sensitive military documents about the war in Afghanistan, has just released 30,000 tapes of DM using vulgar and obscene language and beating and punching and pulverizing veteran SO staff, a “First amendment right” as a religion~~ you know “ministerial exception” of assault and battery.
Just kidding ~~ we have to lighten and up sometimes.
It is all so dark.
as the lies starts to surface the ugly truth comes to a head
lie by lie DM and his gang just bury themselves deeper and deeper and deeper until they are in the abyss of lies
Marty your blog should be called “Truth Revealed”
what a pain.
is a total disgust !!
i do not know what else to say.
soltan from italy (public)
Margaret,
Can you imagine a defense lawyer in a murder trial: “Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, you may have heard from a dozen eyewitnesses who testified they saw my client drown the baby, but come on, where is the evidence? My client, through his spokespeople, said he didnt do it. He is a man of his word (or at least his spokespeople are). Where are the photographs of him doing it — you would think that if all these people witnessed this someone would have video footage. These days everyone takes videos. And why is there no written plan? People usually write down their plans before acting and there has been no plan introduced by the prosecutors. Just because another dozen people testfied they heard my clent saying he hates babies and wants to drown them, it doesnt prove a thing. I say to you again, where is the evidence?”
NOTE: The following information may be more valuable kept private, please review carefully. – Each mobile phone has a International Mobile Equipment Identifier. Each mobile is thus identified on the network it uses. If they are trying to palm off a new mobile as JB’s it will have a different IMEI than the network has records for. Also the SIM card has a number on it, this is unique to the SIM and matches it to the cell phone number for the account. Since the phone seems already to have been taken as evidence this is hard indisputable evidence of perjury. Well done.
Karen,
In one of your comments you’d quoted a man who’d written to you. I haven’t seen any comments about it so am guessing people missed it. It’s HUGE though. You wrote:
This is based on a confidential “Directive” blow anything written by David Miscavige that “anyone who claims to get a blow or process EP on Solo NOTs without a full Blowdown is simply at the case level of “DUB-IN” and imagining things.
(I tried to put it in bold. I hope it worked.)
This would explain why so many people do so poorly on Solo NOT’s. Follow Davey’s “directive” and they’ll be wrapping themselves around a pole in no time. This is one of the reasons why it’s simply not safe to do Solo NOT’s within the Cof M. Very dangerous.
For some odd reason, recalling Dave’s harangues away from the podium, I got the idea of him saying what he wants to (the above) at an event, on stage, in that circuitry he goes on with. And the audience, half pie-face, half ‘arrgghh, ggg, whaa, oooofff’.
Would that be ‘evidence’ SpanishSeaOrgLurker?
Maybe if you stepped in front of the 20th Century limited you’d get the idea there are things that move too?
Lying and cheating Miscavige!
He is a rat that has nibbled the cheese far too long.
I feel sorry for his followers,
Pocket Hitler!
Hi, Karen — thanks for the levity. And, yes, we do need the laughter. Laughter is good, strong medicine.
But the funny (in a different way) thing is that at some point both audio and video tapes of Miscavige’s crimes and embarrassing foot-bullets will indeed emerge on the Internet.
If Marty and Mike and Jeff and Amy and Marc and Claire and JB and many, many others could leave Int bearing witness, many more will leave. Some of them will come out carrying hard evidence of Miscavige’s very unecclesiastical behaviors and crimes.
It is just a matter of time.
As Tory and others have said many times … tick tock, TICK TOCK!
Just Me
Karen,
I’ve done two study cycles recently, one on ‘disconnection’ and one on the Floating Needle. In both of these I found a fraud perpetrated by David Miscavige in his re-writes and alterations of two LRH HCOBs.
You’ve related in a post here the experience of a person undergoing DM’s Reverse Scientology. Here is one part of that experience:
“I was told that it was IMPOSSIBLE to get a blow or EP of a process on
that level unless I had a blowdown on each and every action. This is based on a confidential “Directive” blow anything written by David Miscavige that
“anyone who claims to get a blow or process EP on Solo NOTs without a full Blowdown is simply at the case level of “DUB-IN” and imagining things. When I politely queries that a non-LRH directive could not alter LRH written HCOBs, I was immediately routed to Ethics and told in unclear that questioning the validity of the writings of David Miscavige.”
With the above, I’m getting a clearer idea on why Warren McShane would make such a dog’s breakfast of his police report; he is in the final stages of irresponsibility where one elects their executioner. One messes up so badly that they hope they will be removed from any position where they can harm.
DM has perverted the subject beyond recognition and others have gone along with this, accepting forged LRH issues, ‘technical directives’ from a wrong source, and been party to the corruption of Scientology. Basically good, these others have entered the slide to irresponsibility and betrayed their dynamics. It’s no wonder beneath the social veneer of the Church of Miscavige, lies such desperation.
Perfectly summed up Naomi.
Nothing is of any surprise to me what DM is capable of. Either in what he does, Says ,or Otherwise. As I Myself witnessed it directly Years ago. Its not news to me at all. Its a disgrace.
If any one in there has some sort of Sanity left and knows what
the church has become which is A DM’s World and Not Scientology, and If those within are in a position to think what the hell am I still doing here !!! Is very very questionable, or perhaps are so sadly already brained washed into DM’s World.But for those with some little hope left of some sort can realise its not True Scientology any more.Families outside should support along with friends outside to try every attempt and feed News into the compound with all resources possible to let within know What Support is outside awaiting to be offered. so they could get help to come to terms with their ordeal .I am sure all possible is being done.But I feel I have to express it for myself again.
The sad thing is if not those within are likely to be going down with DM.
Secret Bank accounts?? HE’S MISUSING THE UNSECRET MONEY IN FRONT OF GOD AND THE WORLD!
Not to mention blatantly altering “Scientology Scripture” in direct contravention of said “scripture”!
It doesnt matter if COB goes because of legal evidence and a trial or from the pressure of public opinion and internal support, he just needs to be gone. And like a big fat bit of post digestive sustenance, he is pretty much squeezed out except for the final drop and plop.
You wait. I’ve looked and decided.
Karen#1~Another example of David Miscavige making up his own technology.
And another reason I think you’re better off with NO tech right now, than with reverse evil crap run on you – every day life won’t spin you in as fast as this weird, crazy made-up bullshit will. Obviously, it spins you in MUCH quicker.
Plus you have the stress of being broke, constant fear of losing your friends, family, livelihood, driving you further down.
Totally a lose-lose situation.
You are not stuck though because one solution you do have is to reach out to anyone here privately. Nobody here will demand you go public.
Wow, I really do not know what to make of all of this. I still have quite a few good friends that I knew when I was in that are at the INT base and CST. I feel for these people. I also understand that they can do something about it. The fact that they have not done anything about it is directly related to the fact that they are un willing to open their eyes and look at reality.
I used to think that Int mgmnt was just blindly following policy but and that they really “believed.” It really seems that they have made a key mistake.
I really hope I can communicate this correctly. and this is just my view point.
It seems to me that, looking at teh history of the Sea Org, when R was running everything there was a big difference. Sure he would get upset and RPF, overboard and even declare people. the main difference that I see is that LRH would review this and often times reinstate these same people. I have heard many people say that it is because he was nuts. I do not believe that to be the case. I think he would give the correct handling for “that time” it would have the effect. The majority of the time LRH would then go back and reprieve that person or cancell the ethics completly. this is applying the correct ammount of ethics etc. Of course it would depend on the person showing that he/she could make change. I believe this is applying the correct ammount of ethics to bring about a change. Once that change happens, you do not continue to apply ethics because it suits you.
I for one have never heard of David miscaviage showing any of his staff that he is able to be human or admit when he might have over reacted. He sure can not spot when ehics goes in and cease the action. This is a major flaw in his person IMO. He is an exercise in what it is like to lead by intimadation and with fear.
Any discrepancies that LRH showed fail to compair to what David Miscavige does on a daily basis. I say without hesitation that if LRH was still in command I would still be a messenger in the Sea Org.
“Julian Assange, the founder of the Wikileaks website, is facing a warrant for his arrest over an accusation of rape.”
This is definitely date coincident with the upcoming release of more U.S. war documents due for release. Exactly the same M.O. at work here.
I am no fan of Wikileaks, because the organization is irresponsible. That said,
I woke up this am to a news report that said that Wikileaks founder Julian Assange was being sought by Swedish authorities to answer to a rape allegation. Assange and the group call it “dirty tricks.”
Given that Wikileaks published Scn, information in addition to the Afghanistan documents, my first thought when reading this is that this was put together by DM’s team. I am willing to bet that’s true.
Ah, but wait: “Swedish prosecutors have canceled an arrest warrant issued for the founder of controversial whistleblower website WikiLeaks, Julian Assange.”
Yep, same M.O. and dirty tricks! People are wisening up to this BS!
JB – I was in motorpool “on the decks” several times, little Jenny you and was it Tony Medina – you were nice, we changed a fender, I cleaned cars. I had good experiences with you. It is awesome you’re out now and that you decompressed so fast – I’m sure you’re still getting used to freedom and the deliciousness of being away from tyranny. It would be cool to hook up!
It boggles the mind.
Leon,
Spot on. A prominent poster on this board was just mentioning this to me the other day and it totally indicated.
The victim “being eaten” actually validates himself for tasting good to the one eating him. The one doing the eating validates himself for his “good taste’.
It’s all tied up in eating and sex. Real creative, huh?
Ne
“You Say, he did hit staff but there aer no medical records. Without evidence, you guys don’t have much.”
So, we’re “you guys”, which means you are not one of us.
You forgot the fiendish gloating laugh: BWA HA HA HA HA HA HA!!!
Michael A. Hobson
JB,
Here’s my advice, I suggest you print this off, or put it aside to read at your leisure.
I happen to trust certain media journalists.
I trust scholars.
I trust society’s law enforcement officials, including our intelligence agencies, Homeland Security, FBI, Justice Dept.
I don’t knee jerk reject our judicial system, and believe that incontrovertible evidence is the way to go, if one goes to court against Scientology.
And otherwise, then provide the raw info to media, to tell the on the ground history of Scientology, as time marches forward.
What happens in life doesn’t make it into the history books, not unless it is summarized and written about specifically, as accurately as possible, in media, in scholarly chapters and books, and in books in general.
Which is also why I think to bypass the whole society vested interest and problems of our society’s institutions, it is best “us” ex members write our own raw data histories, and cross corroborate each other.
We KNOW what the truth is/was, and we should just write it up. Share it and get it corroborated.
But to protect oneself from the crap official Scientology will throw at one, I have this advice.
I highly recommend you establish some media journalists as friends.
Overseas journalists are best, since then the emails you send to them will be automatically picked off and stored by NSA, data mined, and any US intelligence agency/Homeland Security, can be infoed on the content of this overseas email traffic if it is thought relevant/alarming or has to do with actual criminal stuff.
I think in terms of leaking the truth, so that the raw info DOES make it into the files being kept on these ongoing shennanigans of official Scientology.
Emailing overseas, allows this intell gathering.
When I was at INCOMM, I read and re-read in shocked horror, Bamford’s book on the NSA, “The Puzzle Palace.” The NSA has been authorized to collect and data mine all incoming and outgoing communition into and out of the US since the 1980s through to today.
Going overseas with communication, allows this data mining.
Talking publicly/privately to foreign journalists who understand in depth Scientology’s intelligence and totalitarian and abusive tactics and history, IS a way to leak the truth out, and it will get into the hands of analysts who do want to know the truth. The best sanest way to leak truth into the intelligence agencies files, is to summarize and email the truth overseas.
Even though there are advanced conspiracy theories about the intentions of our society’s intelligence and police agencies, despite it all, despite it all, to operate against the intelligence tactics of Scientology, it is BEST, in my opinion, to be transparent, and actually follow the LRH OODs item about the best security viewpoint is to presume that the “enemy” will gather and decode every one of your transmissions.
Well, in my opinion, this is sound advice. Pressume Miscavige’s/Scientology’s hired attornies who hire the PIs who hire the hackers, will get ALL your communication.
They my view is to leak it to people who WILL tell the truth about it all, when the shit hits the fan, and Scientology does it’s dirty stuff back.
The best defence against Scientology is be high principled.
Make allies in the media and society’s institutions who understand the dirty games Scientology is playing. My hope is official Scientology ceases it’s irreligious dirty tactics, and until they do, then I feel compelled to continue working to network people to media and society’s thinkers who take interest in the dark side of Scientology’s irreligious behavior.
If Scientology cannot stop its own irreligious behavior, then it becomes inevitable that THAT in itself becomes the interest of new religion scholars, and inevitably will become the subject of a chapter or book about OSA’s history.
I highly recommend to all, a great read, is the bestseller series, and particularly the first book in the series of fictional thrillers, where the journalist and waif punk character take on some mighty bad top corporate asshole, and the bad stuff done against the journalist, etc, in the process.
What Scientology’s hired PIs are doing is NOT something new nor unique.
It’s the same old crap that powerful moneybags corporate and other types with the funds, can do.
I’ve always felt, these last 6 years since I was hoping to contribute to exposing Scientology’s abuses, that going to the media is the best we can do.
Bottom line, JB, get introduced to some media and journalists and make lifelong friends with them.
And I’ll send anyone my list and introduce anyone to those journalists and writers and scholars, because I think it is VERY important for firsthand participants of the Scientology top ranks history to let those in society who can give you advice, answer YOUR questions, and network you to others.
ANYONE wanting to leak serious history that should be made public, I’ll gladly network anyone to media I’ve been in touch with for 6 years now.
Think of them as friends, and they can advise you, if you ask them.
Jonny Jacobsen, I highly recommend you contact Jonny Jacobsen, and become lifelong friends with Jonny. Others on this site have visited Jonny in Paris, like I have.
He works out of the French News agency in Paris, and there are others who post here on this blog who have been in touch with Jonny over the years.
He’s a new father, and is sort of cooling it, on Scientology for the moment, but he’s overseas, and thus info and briefings sent to him by email will be picked off, per the NSA’s allowed option to so pick overseas.
There are a few others who will gladly help you with “big league” advice JB.
Recommended international journalist:
jonnymcj@fastmail.fm
His site: http://infinitecomplacency.blogspot.com/
He’s in Paris, France, and Scientology is NOT going to screw with an international journalist on his home turf, France. If they do, then French press will continue eating Scientology alive for it.
He’s Scottish and he’s NOT inflationary or some hyper anti Scientologist.
Recommended good fiction reading, showing what happens to “us” is NOT unique: “The Girl With the Dragon Tatto” by Swedish author (sadly now deceased) Stieg Larsson. This books shows those ex top ranks people who DM is afraid of, or wishes to make an “example” of, or try to “put their heads on a pike” as cautionary retaliatory threat game, this practice is NOT limited to Scientology, but rather is a whole dark practice that Scientology needs to GET OUT of that dirty business.
I feel media and good journalists, are thus, the best longrange hope to continue exposing and keeping tabs on just how dirty Scientology continues to behave.
My all time favorite scholars, on somewhat opposite sides of the divide, meaning the two sides detest, but have made some reconciliations about their counter attacks (I’d love to know how OSA might have been involved in third partying Professor Kent over the last two decades if any who know how Kent was 3p’ed, please share what you know) are:
skent@ualberta.ca
Dr. Stephen A. Kent
Professor
Department of Sociology
University of Alberta
Edmonton, Alberta
Canada T6G 2H4
tel: (780)492-2204 (24 hrs.)
fax: (780)492-7196
web site: http://www.arts.ualberta.ca/~skent/scientology.html
http://www.abc.net.au/rn/religionreport/stories/2008/2218519.htm (latest interview)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JDgrU6pC9M4&feature=related 45 minutes 2000 Kent at conference
http://www.uofaweb.ualberta.ca/sociology/news.cfm?story=89063 recognition
Kent is decidedly on the “anti” Scientology side of things, although I think he’s granted that Scientology acts in part like a religion, but he absolutely is fearless in taking Scientology to task for Scientology’s irreligious behavior.
My favorite of the “apologist” scholars, is
Dr. David G. Bromley
Professor, Religious Studies and Sociology
Director, Partnership for Understanding
World Religions and Spirituality
Virginia Commonwealth University
Richmond, VA 23284-2021
804-828-6286
dbromley@vcu.edu
I think Professor Bromley’s chapter number 4, in the 2009 Oxford Univ Press anthology “Scientology” (edited by Jim Lewis), is the current best summary of Scientology.
I absolutely invite people to contact Kent and Bromley, and JB, PLEASE contact Professor Kent.
Here’s Jim Beverley, who visited me here in Pittsburgh, and I let him comb through my Scientology library, and I gave him a set of the green volumes:
I urge people to write the details of their lives in Scientology, help media to expose the abuses, help scholars, help law enforcement officials bring to an end any of official Scientology’s illegal activities.
Thanks JB!
I remember when you came to the FLB way back in the late 1970s, did the EPF, and then went over the rainbow.
I’ll network you to people on the ground near the Int Base, who would love your input and advice on matters happening on the other sides of the Int Base razor wired fences.
Thanks so much JB.
Make allies, these people WILL give you good advice about life versus official Scientology.
Chuck Beatty
Ex-Sea Org (lifetime staffer, 1975-2003)
Flag Dec 1975-Jun 1983 (TTC, Sup, Word Clearer, D of T, etc.)
Int Base 1983-1984 (Routing Forms Pjt)
Snr HCO Int in the FB in LA 1984-87 Re-Training (Int and LA) 87-88
Int Training Org, LA 88 (Sec Checker Sup)
LRH Tech Research and Comps, CMO Int, (Sept 88-Feb 89)
Int RPF (Feb-Mar 89)
PAC RPF (Mar-May 89)
Int Training Org (May-Sept 89) (Admin Sup)
INCOMM Sep 89-Sept 90 (Routing Forms Pjt)
INCOMM Sept 90-May92 (Computer Room LA & Int)
ASI May 92-Dec95 (Computer Room, In-Training Esto)
Decks Int (Dec 95-Jun 96)
Int RPF (Jun 96-Nov 2000)
PAC RPF (Nov 2000-Mar2003)
Routed out March 29, 2003.
Chuckbeatty77@aol.com
http://www.freewebs.com/chuckbeatty77/
http://tinyurl.com/49g722
http://tinyurl.com/295khy
http://tinyurl.com/cgrg7
http://tinyurl.com/38ptz8
http://tinyurl.com/ywhgaf
http://tinyurl.com/5xkdl5
Ground Control to Major Tung.
Mike,
In the 1980s, Yvonne was the senior in RTC over Senior HCO Int.
Yvonne had thus “senior” access to Senior HAS Int’s logon, and thus could go into Senior HCO Int’s emails and documents.
Yvonne emailed some evidence that Yvonne made up, to get some compliance reports, so that Yvonne’s statistics in RTC, were “up.”
Yvonne was caught, and for this and other things, she was busted from RTC.
But Yvonne’s head has been in the right direction, all these years.
I think this is another indicator of things that happen to all human beings, and I don’t particularly pick on Scientology.
But our human flaws are so spread out, amongst all of us, that some of us play the sycophant and toady roles to the bully bastasds who play king of the mountain, is all it is, in the end of the day.
I myself played the “how could it be that way” attitude, always looking to justify how it was that the “top” people in the Sea Org did the PR and covert stuff that we obviously did.
I myself have to admit to being pretty much a librarian mentality toady sycophant, when I reflect on how I supported watching what “we” did to our “enemies” like Gerry Armstrong and Arnie Lerma and Dennis Erlich.
Mike, someday, I hope you can open up on the subjects of how “we” trashed our ex members like Gerry and Arnie and Dennis, just for the history books.
Yvonne, well, we have to live in the beds we made, and she likely is a woman who has to have someone else tell her what to think, and she’s non stop thinking how best to toady up to DM.
I too, when I was younger, pre Scientology, did some toadying to a bully.
I institutionally toadied to DM, in my decades.
We all did.
How to unwrap oneself out of that mind game, I wish us all well in undoing it, and helping to get it all to stop from continuing.
Thanks Marty, Mike, JB and all who lay it all out.
Chuck
https://www.ftccomplaintassistant.gov/
FTC actually handled an issue for us. When they got enough complaints filed, they pounced.
“The Federal Trade Commission, the nation’s consumer protection agency, collects complaints about companies, business practices, identity theft, and episodes of violence in the media.”
Dylan,
Good points. Under DM there is an attitude of ‘no change’. A person, any person, can make a miscalculation of effort, they can be ‘wrong’. Then they can get more data, properly evaluate it, and on a re-try, be ‘right’. NOT SO under DM. They are forever after to some degree ‘wrong’ and there is precious little that can be accomplished to ever be ‘right’ again. (Except Dave, who apparently has never erred.)
As difficult as it was, I did A-E under DM’s system. In fact I finished it, clean ethics file and all. Yet, I was not restored to ‘good standing’. Why? I asked and was told that I had ‘looked’ at the internet and ‘looked’ at ‘entheta’, even purported Upper Level data. NOT actually done anything with any of this looking, but merely looked.
Extrapolating this new ‘high crime’ (it must be a ‘high crime’ since I was put back to do more A-E, and that’s only for ‘high crimes’ right?) of ‘looking’ one would go to the next level of ‘feeling’ and eventually ‘thinking’. This extrapolation is from the mechanics of anchor points/attention and space. As the space one is viewing, i.e., looking at, beguns to collapse the next thing is one starts to ‘feel’ (emotion), and the further collapse ends in low-scale ‘think’ with the space closed in and solid.
BUT, ‘looking’ MAKES SPACE now doesn’t it, so the actual ‘high crime’ can be taken as ‘he made space’. ‘He was looking’ becomes dangerous. To whom?
Certainly not me, since ‘looking’ is exactly how I can observe, gain greater ARC and thence KRC and eventually relieve any unwanted condition or gain cause over any particles, significances, and the gamut of stuff out there and close in.
Admiration requires space, else there be nuttin’ to flow it to. That means ‘looking’.
Extrapolating DM’s ‘view’ of the universe, one arrives at a solidity. That solidity is his ‘bunker’; both as a being and now, fully manifest by a ‘real’ bunker.
Being there and communicating. That means, by definition, assuming a point of view, putting out points to view, and viewing them. These are the ‘high crimes’ of the Church of Miscavige.
SpanishLurker is wrong but DM still runs the show. Whatever was said, broadcasted, filed, he got away. Independents have 100 people saying he’s bad, DM has 100 (or more) people saying he’s good.
Marty,
THANK YOU!
Christos, Chuck, talk about ‘jamming a line with too much tung’. (It doesn’t work in any context.)
Chuck, since you are an avowed and knowing materialist, is it possible that you have been personally subjected, possibly under hynosis, to a concentrated meteor shower, or mayhaps are in the midst of a black hole, with the collapse of particles coming back to the middle and condensing to a mass which you are attempting to handle by relaying every significant or non-significant piece to us?
Have you considered DM’s ‘grounding rod’? It may help in this ‘what’s it fest’.
I’d check with one of your authorities on this one.
Back when I was in, we had a saying: “Everyone is a Scientologist, they just haven’t cognited.” Working with people of good will to correct abuses is definitely the way forward. The real WHY of the present attacks on the Church of Scientology are best summed up by LRH:
“The public hates like hell to be denied Scientology”.
Okay. My edited advice, is establish contacts with Kent, Bromley, and Jacobsen. Rest is major tung, point taken. Will edit in the future. thanks again Marty.
Seems so Sinar!
Trying to guess who you are. I changed many a fender…you can track me down if you try hard enough.
This is not a comment on the current post.
This is my coming out as an Independent Scientologist (finally got permission to do that from my wife). I made the decision to leave the church just before the 4th of July weekend.
I have had many fantastic wins from Scientology. I am a Power Plus completion and a trained auditor, course supervisor and word clearer. I KNOW the tech works when properly applied. Heck, even when improperly applied.
But based on my direct personal experience during my recent Elig cycle at AOLA (where I DID complete my Elig auditing), I have concluded that the current Church of Scientology is daily committing serious out-tech, is seriously off-policy and frankly in many ways has gotten quite suppressive. And I believe the source of these problems is David Miscavage – a suppressive person. To any non-Scientologist reading this, spell that “sociopath.”
So I am no longer a member of the church, but plan to continue my training and auditing (and assist others with training and auditing) with the help of other independent Scientologists.
Ron Matlock
independent_scientologist@hotmail.com
The church is dead. Long live Scientology!
You know Karen, I thought I’d help ‘ol Dave out here a bit.
He could make sure that any door that anyone in scientology passes through would have electronic bug, metal and explosive detectors concealed in the frame. He could have everyone scanned, surveyed, wanded down and recorded any time that they had any communication with any other scientologist.
Beyond that (in order to ensure security) he could have scientologists “wired for sound” and monitored on a continuous basis on the chance that they might say something untoward about him or scientology to anyone at any time.
Perhaps he might install video surveillance systems and internet monitoring software at scientologists homes and workplaces. Of course, the scientologist in question would be required to be available for contact by church officials in an instant so they could be corrected regarding any behavior that fell outside of the guidelines of “Official Church Doctrine”.
Only in this way can David Miscavige ensure that those under his charge are doing the right thing and not endangering the future of scientology.
Whadd’ya think? Good plan, eh?
Ne
Addendum to TEG – underground railroad:
My home is open to any SO member who leaves. I’m on the East Coast and therefore someone on Mission to FLAG, to the Freewinds from Int, Gold, RTC etc, or staff from either of these SO bases are welcome. (or SO staff on Mission in NY, etc)
I have non-scientology friends in Clearwater who would pick you up, bring you to their home which is not on anyones radar. Then arrange for you to come stay with me. All expenses would be covered.
I live in the country. In a gated community. PIs would make it as far as the front gates, then if are intent on coming to my home — well, they have 4,000 of acres of forest to wander through, with bear, fire arms, moose, coyotes, skunk — well, it would not be a pleasant adventure for them!
Marty has details on how to contact me. Contact Marty and you’ll be safe in a few hours.
WH
Dylan, I am very happy you have that viewpoint. It’s so easy to bash
the ‘old man’. He really cared. He was Scientology! Til he dropped
the body he ‘Lived’ Scientology.
Bingo!
If only we had a social personality at the helm of the church. Imagine just getting your services, per LRH, at rates easily digestable for the man on the street. Then without all the diversions to drain your personal bank accounts, one could plan for more processing at reasonable intervals. The result would be more OT’s in society, and that alone would bring the world into the state we all want it to be in. LRH never wanted anything more.
Instead, what do we get from the COB? Power struggles, fighting, insanity, money grabs, diversions, pretty buildings with lower stats, etc.
This whole affair is just as sad as it can be. Fortunately, we have our fine independent field to do what COB is failing to do.
Immortal liberators, I salute you!!
Centurion
Least we forget the name of Marty’s blog:
Moving on Up a Little Higher — perhaps borrowed from the great Mahalia Jackson?
thanks Jim, I’m glad that you got me. Of course you put it a little better. Thanks for that! I agree with what you pointed out.
I also started my A-E steps, when Sue Price was IJC. All I had to do to finish them was pay my freeloader debt. I could not get a total out of her and could not continue paying on a debt I did not know the total. Their excuse was that my files were up lines. my main motivation was to complete the A-E so that my family would be allowed to communicate with me. This never happened.
“This constitutes identify theft.”
Didn’t they still have JB’s Passport ? Criminal church is criminal.
Dave Medina.
BECAUSE :
I wrote to JB privately to ask if it was OK to ask more questions for our readers. He is willing to answer….he has the beacon of TRUTH on his side.
JB is in a very unique position to shed light on the current scene at INT base because he only left 4 months ago. So I am going to ask JB to share with us here ~~
1)
JB…what is the tone level of the average staff member ? Do they look oppressed ? How do these Veteran SO members in lockdown appear ?
Was there a difference in tone after you returned from the 15 months at Freewinds ?
2) JB ~~ what is the level of appreciation for GOLD staff who sometimes work ungodly hours ? Has Lou leaked to you DM’s attitude on the Rank and File ?
3)JB…you left only 4 months ago, is SP hole still there ? Are they really behind bars ? Please explain the bars. Is Heber behind bars ?
4)Is DM worried about staff “LOYALTY”…please explain.
Chuck,
That really was pretty breezy! And did JB ask for your advice?
What strikes me is that you have 27 or 28 years in the SO and you seem to have nothing good to say about the SO, Ron, or Scientology. I guess that is understandable after 6 or 7 years on the RPF. That was a gross, gross (horrific, actually) misapplication of tech and admin, IMHO. I am sorry you were put through that. I think any SO or ex SO member deserves our thanks and admiration.
So do I.
Yes, Jason Beghe can tell you that, he attended the first Sunday service at the Shack.
Welcome Ron! And you are ALIVE as can be!
He is not the onley one. Alsoo you slip in a little weasle.
Sea Org and Sea Org members are not A=A
Chuck — part of the spin mind-set is that in looking or attempting to look at the WHOLE TRACK, we see ourselves guilty of many crimes.
Looking at our current lives, most of us have done things we are ashamed of, embarrassed by and wish to forget.
Most of us have been bullies if not for awhile, at least for a day. Some of us have been on the receiving end.
But — at the end of my day — I ask — how did I do TODAY?
Was I kind?
Was I helpful?
Did I try to help someone through a confusion?
LRH said — “Never regret yesterday, life is in you today and you make your tomorrow.”
I remember you as a very nice supervisor, married to the staff CS, Ann. Not sure what the date was but nonetheless I find it somewhat disturbing that you seem to beat yourself up from time to time for not having had ability the call out dm or others.
And also somewhat sad – that you seem to find most everything that LRH said as objectionable. In being “anti-LRH” you actually become “anti-Chuck” because your SO days were a part of you. Embrace them and find the gems from that time.
You are of course free to feel as you do. I just wonder if you ever ask yourself, “perhaps I could feel a different way, if I just shifted my point of view a tiny bit”
Remember — it’s a fixed mind that can be cracked. A fluid one — well, it bends and flows.
Love,
WH
Well, I’ve seen him shine the light on a lot of LRH’s brilliance on third dynamic tech too.
Just found out the rape charge was called off. Sounds like the clincher that it was a DM plant to me. I can hear it now: “Oh – oops. The charge was from some member of the CofS? Never mind!” Speculation of course.
Ron Matlock,
Thank you for standing your ground and coming out.
Here’s a nice read on others that moved out of DM’s cult
http://www.scientology-cult.com/declarations-of-independence.html.
You can ask Steve to list you on the list of Independents.
steve@stevehallcreative.com
Good Job Ron. Welcome.
Ron Matlock,
Let me know if I can aid you in anything you may need.
Chuck — Marty pointed out that you shine the light on LRH’s brilliance … so I stand corrected.
I guess I just feel as if you are too hard on yourself.
Could be my mood though — too much sugar 🙂
Love,
WH
To any SO or other staff who need help getting out and who need some R&R in the country in the Midwest — come on down!
My ex-cop husband is great friends with the local sheriff. We will take care of you. Ditto what Windhorse said — your airfare will be paid for, and when you’re ready we’ll get you to your next stop.
Marty, Mike, Christie, Haydn, Logan, Fellow Traveler, and many, many others here can get you in touch with me.
All you have to do is reach.
Just Me
Welcome!
Here is a poem by Jere Matlock. Any relation?
IF WE LIVE FOREVER
If we live forever,
We do a terrible job of it.
If we live forever,
We should be able
To soar limitless
In or out of bodies at will,
Transcending the
Warnings of pain,
Unfettered in our
Romp through time.
Living forever,
We would remember
All
That we have been,
All that we have done.
Every sensation,
Every wonderful
Discovery.
If we were to live forever,
We would be thinking
Mainly of the
Quality of our survival
As immortals.
We would be protective
Of our freedoms,
Knowing
We would be
Forced ourselves
To live in any
Too clever trap
We created.
We might spend
Less time criticizing
Our surroundings
If we knew they
Were our own making.
We might hate our
Enemies a little less
If we knew they were
The children of
Our children’s children.
No,
If we lived
Forever we
Would not treat
Each other so shabbily.
If we knew
That those we brushed
Aside or blew off
Would come around again
With long memories
Of ancient evils, ours.
If we lived forever
The simple knowledge
Of our living on
Might light our
Lives from within.
A friend of mine told me a story about Chris Burns. Some may remember him. He spent 5 years in the RPF and said that he liked it because at least he got sleep and 5 hours of study/auditing each day.
Thats a sad thing to say about how staff at Int are and were being treated under DM.
Well done Ron!
I do agree with that Windhorse.
Ron Matlock;
Welcome and thank you for having the courage to stand up and tell the bastards that your not going to take this SP bullshit any longer.
VWD my friend.
Ne:
If you haven’t seen the movie Stepford Wives (there is a 1975 and 2004 version – the older one is more scary not so funny). It is pretty close to what you are detailing in your post. Come to think of it DM wants us all to be like a stepford wife because they are totally controlled. For those of you who haven’t watched it in a really long time check it out again!
Chuck,
Thank you for this.
Let us not belittle media comm lines.
Look at the Impact of what St. Pete Times did.
I have logged all the media comm lines.
DM, Office of COB and RTC pulled a really dirty Ops on me.
An Anonymous call that I was smuggling underage children.
Well, like LRH says, lies backfire like coiled wire.
This Ops on me backfired like a son of gun and greatly elevated my position with Law enforcement.
I am just waiting for them to raise the ante with me ~~and, I would not hesitate to use every comm line you offer and more.
Thanks Chuck.
To Karen#1: I have contacted Steve to add me to the list.
To others: I’m doing perfectly fine and don’t need any help (but thanks for the offer). I’m not in victim mode, at all.
As far as I can tell, most independent Scientologists are laying low, but I think that’s a mistake and it’s not my style. If ever there was a time to stand up and be counted as an independent, I think this is it.
When I’m asked some day, “What did you do when you realized that DM was destroying the church?,” I want to be able to say, “I spoke up! And I continued to speak up!”
Ron~Awesome! Nice to meet ya. Glad your wife gave the OK too. 🙂
because,
Here is some data from Science Of Survival, 1989 edition.
“The methods of handling others could be assigned to three general categories. The highest category would be one of enhancement, where the individual seeks by example and good reasoning to lift the level of those around him to the point where they will partake of the projects of living with him. This would extend from 4.0 down to 3.0. The second category would be that of punishment drive, or domination. Here the individual uses alarm, threats and the general promise of pain unless compliance is given by the others around him. This area extends from 2.0 to around 1.3. The third category is that of nullification, wherein the individual seeks to minimize individuals, to be more than they and so to be able to control them. This category would rather see a man sick than well, because sick men are less dangerous than well men, according to the”thinking” that takes place om this band.”
Pretty much places DM on the tone scale I’d say, Marty too for that matter. Look at David Miscavige and the CofM. Now look at Marty et al and this blog. Hmmm… By their actions ye shall know them.
WW
VERY WELL DONE, Ron!!! Welcome to the real world of freedom!
Truly, may you never BE the same! 🙂
ARC,
ΘTater/Gary
thanks for your kind thoughts.
I would definitely be still in the Sea Org, had it not looked so bleak overall.
There’s a mindset, at the time I didn’t know it ALL traced to the tyrannical usurping extremist dictatorial one man band domineering Miscavige, I thought that what LRH wrote for the movement’s top ranks, all LRH’s advices and writings for ASI, for CMO Int, for Exec Strata, his generic policies over the years, his Sea Org Flag Orders, I took them all seriously. My favorite post that I wished but never attained, was to be a nerd helper for one of the Exec Strata persons. I loved the concept contained in LRH ED 339R Int of the duties of the Exec Strata, being sort of Scientology’s think tank ready to hear and handle with smart advice to any of the staff in any of the orgs. Find the policy or LRH idea for any problem administratively, was right up my alley, and something that in my earlier years as OEC/FEBC Course Sup, I loved doing the most.
Anyways, today, I’m torn.
I’m wanting official Scientology to “Do what Ron says” administratively
I see Miscavige as the person who’s personal character is so irrational, that he’s a block to saner top management doing their jobs.
Ideal scene dream for me, is still contained in LRH ED 339R Int, although my years after getting out, reading mainly the highly critical books and internet material about Scientology has taken it’s toll.
But also, just listening to the viewpoints of people who give their unprofessional two cents about Scientology, raw public, bring up and summarize critical points about the whole setup, like “Why are the prices so exorbidant?” “Why is disconnection even MORE extreme than other religions’ excommunication?” “Why doesn’t Scientology upfront tell what the upper levels are about, if the upper levels are SO important to mankind’s mental health recovery and worldwide peace?”
“Why is Scientology so money grubbing?”
I’d personally prefer to see saner top management fix Scientology.
And I’d prefer to have saner top management order an International Amnesty, let people come and go as they please, and basically have top management fix other major problems that the movement tends to self generate, like the problems that wrongly declaring members suppressive persons causes.
David Miscavige is such an impediment to all sane solutions for Scientology’s future, that I definitely agree and support efforts to somehow sideline Miscavige from ALL strategic decision making relating to Scientology as soon as possible.
while I hate to disagree with the trends that the sort of field ex official Scientologists are naturally taking due to how Miscavige dominates the scene, I still feel that LRH spent a lot of time working for make the admin system somehow work. And being myself essentially an ex admin person, I tend to think of policy option loopholes that might make that system STILL work, were saner top management people to take up that job.
Some arguments, like Joe/Dan Howard/Koon’s arguments, though, I tend to agree with Joe/Dan. He’s saying what even earlier people like April Hall said, which is that LRH didn’t predict the internet in full. Since all the tech can be right on the internet now.
A month or so ago, Pierre Ethier came to Pittsburgh, I met him and some of his preclears, they seemed very happy with Pierre’s auditing. Delivered at a fraction of Flag’s prices.
No, I can live with Scientology.
I’d like to see this turn out as best it can, so people are NOT ripped off, NOT have their families emotionally devastated by overzealous misapplication of false suppressive person declarations for irrational and vindictive or dictaorial power reasons.
Longer range, there are lots of problems.
I don’t think WDC Members and Exec Strata Execs have the same luxury of time to think freely and rationally about the bigger Scientology problems.
And the biggest problem of all, is David Miscavige’s role as suppressive held down seven on the movement at present.
My largest contribution I guess, was the people I helped complete their administrative course training, and then the years I worked on the computerized routing forms, which I know a lot of staff hated, since the routing forms seemed like admin drudgery and “arbitrary” since the staff mainly just want to get their public serviced, and damn the admin.
And LRH on the Handling of Truth from Science of Survival, 1989 edition.
“At 4.0, the individual has a high concept of truth and prefers constructive and creative truths. He seeks for new truths.
At 3.5, the individual is truthful but prefers not to deal in entheta facts.
At 3.0, we begin to get the onset of conservatism, a cautiousness about receiving or uttering truths and, in our society, a shortsighted program of social lying in order to “avoid hurting people’s feelings.” One should, by the way, beware of placing in charge of anything people who are “afraid of hurting other people,” for this is not a virtue but a form of cowardice and propitiation and denotes a fear of people; people are not so easily hurt as such persons believe.
At 2.5, we have insincerity and carelessness of facts. The modern American newspaper exemplifies this level on the Tone Scale.
At 2.0, we get the first willful twisting of facts to suit purposes, and here facts will be twisted to suit antagonisms the person holds.
At 1.5, we achieve the ultimate reversal in facts; any white fact will be turned into a black fact; here we have blatant and destructive lying. Did you ever hear an angry man tell the truth?
At 1.1, truth receives her worst drubbing; for here truth is confused, upset, used, twisted and hidden for fear somebody may make retaliation, until one understands that data from this level on the Tone Scale has only two purposes: to wreak the most harm upon others and secure the greatest safety for self. Here we have lies used to hide lies amid the most frantic protestations of honesty and a noisy advertising campaign about the ethics of the speaker. Beneath the façade of honor, honesty, ethics, and “one’s sacred word,” one is apt to find a writhing cesspool of vicious and malicious lies calculated to do the greatest possible damage.”
LRH
Again, by their actions ye shall know them.
WW
Ron,
Congratulations on your decision to become an Independent Scientologist. I know you will find wonderful auditors and safe settings to complete your training outside the confining walls of the Co$. I am really happy for you.
Just Me
Chuck, I do get your point.
I feel there are various ways to go about exposing ( and finally abolishing ) DM and his slavery. And that every path of doing so has its merits.
Jim~That was an incredible description, perfect! 🙂
If you’re in confusion, you have no point to view from.
Hey Marty. I bet this music isn’t exactly your cup of tea but as an outsider looking in I think this crystallizes the Independent’s message to DM quite well.
All the best.
Maybe I was raised too well guarded/protected but I could never follow or respect such a senior/leader as personified by DM. How could such a person be an OL? By speech only he would disqualify himself!
It is such a disgrace!!!! I am disgusted!!!!
Less brought me to the question of what the hell am I doing here followed by the decision to leave.
@WH
Thanks for the wonderful understanding, kind, loving and caring words/truths you found for Chuck.
Love,
Felicitas.
LOL!!! Thanks!!
Felicitas
As my UK friends would say, “lovely.”
Hi Ron,
welcome to the world of true spiritual freedom – and may your studies take you where you wanted to go in the first place.
Love,
Felicitas
I just wish he’d have one of those embarrassing moments when he thought the mikes were off and starts on one of these rants only to be fully heard by every Scientologist. A grand opening of an Idle org would be a perfect scenario.
LOL or even ‘charming’
P.S. All that nasty talk is legally considered sexual harassment.
Chuck,
My old colleague, that was a beautifully expressed post.
Jim
Karen,
Thanks for the questions. As they are very embracive and actually require substantial answers, I think the territory that they they will cover deserves its own post, or several posts. Thank you for bringing these points up. Informative posts addressing these, and other points will be forthcoming!
Smashing!
Thanks for posting that bro. We may not agree on everything but know if it ever came down to a street fight I got your back…;)
Thank you JB.
Understood and agreed with.
I have super incredible comm lines for detection of any kind of criminality or tampering with any cell phone.
At your service.
love/Karen
Welcome Ron,
I missed this posting yesterday but didn’t want to miss the acknowledgement. It is a great feeling to be out in the sun, no longer lurking but completely free.
Realizing that DM destroyed the church was devastating and going public was the only way I knew that I could live with myself. I owed it to LRH for all the wins his tech allowed me to have. In retrospect, I think it was the easiest application that I have ever had of KSW #1. Because, the fact is, despite it being the first PL of every checksheet. there is no KSW inside the church. It’s out here with all of the independents. Glad you are here, too.
THOUGHT PREVOKING comment is the best ref DM’s rat and rave and what ever else goes along with it at the time . Thats well said . Wh the Hell can Get the evidence !!! So all can actually hear what insanity come out from DM.